Dr Dilip Jeste and Dr Samantha Boardman - Build the Habit of “Good Enough” - 10 Lessons Learned

Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
hello.
Welcome to the podcast, 10 Lessons thattook me 50 years to learn, where we
usually talk to leaders and luminariesand politicians and pundits and ask
them about their life lessons today.
However, I Duff Watkins, the host,wanted to do something different.
I got to wondering.
How can I be wiser right now?
I want to be wise right now.

(00:29):
It's why I came up with the idea.
I know.
I'll ask a psychiatrist whowrote a book about wisdom.
No, wait.
I'll ask two psychiatrists whowrote books about wisdom that way.
I can't go wrong.
And they're with us here today.
Dr.
Dilip Jeste as a neuropsychiatristand the professor at the University
of California at San Diego.
He is the author of Wiser theScientific Roots of Wisdom.

(00:51):
He's on the West Coast,on the East Coast as Dr.
Samantha Boardman, who isa positive psychiatrist.
She's going to explainthat in just a second.
She has also written numerous articlesfor academic and popular press,
and she is the author of Every DayVitality, Turning Stress Into Strength.
You can find out more about herand her book and her blog on the

(01:12):
website, positive prescription.com.
Welcome Dillip.
Welcome, Samantha.
Thank you, Duff.
Thrilled to be here.
Samantha, I've workedwith many psychiatrists.
I've never come across one who isa professed positive psychiatrist.
Is this something new?
Tell tell us more.
Well, it's been around for a little while.
I'd say positive psychiatry is aclose cousin of positive psychology

(01:37):
And it was, you know, we are inthe presence of Dillip Jest who
really pioneered positive psychiatrywhen he was president of the
American Psychiatric Association.
Asking the questions really is thatshould psychiatrists be as concerned
with wellbeing as we are with illness?
And we had been so focused for solong on pathogenesis, the, the study

(02:00):
of disease and the lessening ofsymptoms and the treatment of, illness.
But what about focusing onSalutogenesis, the creation of health?
So, positive psychiatry reallyin a nutshell is the science and
practice of psychiatry that seeks tounderstand and to promote wellbeing
through assessments in interventions.
And it aims that enhancing behavioraland mental wellness, um, as well as

(02:24):
mental health outcomes that we measure.
And I'm glad that you mentioned thatDillip, is the former president of
the American Psychiatrist Association.
He was the first Asian Americanperson to be president of that
organization, and it only took him175 years to get around to doing that.
Let's start with the 10ways to become wiser now.

(02:46):
Lesson number one.
This, I think this is yours,Samantha, what would X do?
Ask yourself, what would X do?
Sure.
I mean, this is really to help withone of the sort of pillars of, wisdom
and being wiser, and that that isabout social decision making and
asking yourself, what would X do?

(03:06):
Performs a number of functions for usbecause when we're stressed out and
we're overwhelmed, we often self immerse.
We get sort of so lost as we'reswimming in our own emotions is that
it's very hard to have any perspective.
And we know this fromancient wisdom as well.
There's, um, King Solomon who wasknown for his tremendous wisdom
and giving advice to others.

(03:28):
But when it came to his own personal life,it was sort of a train wreck, . So when
we sort of are able to distance ourselves,and that's really what the psychological
mechanism is, is when you're able todistance yourself from your emotions,
you're able to gain some perspective.
And one way to do that is tothink of somebody you admire.
Think of somebody who you have atremendous respect for who could

(03:51):
sort of help solve this problem.
So rather than thinking about, youknow, what do I Samantha wanna do?
Think of, you know, what mightMichelle Obama do in this moment?
Or it might be some, youknow, they've done this study
even looking at, at children.
asking them to think of a superhero.
, what would Batman do right now?
. And this actually helps them when they'reeven given a tempting video game to play.
Versus, you know, stay on task anddo sort of a tedious math problem.

(04:15):
If they're channeling in almost,you know, impersonating that, that
that character that they admire,they're much more likely to do it.
So if there are any parents out there,you know, maybe think, ask your kid
if you want them to clean your room.
What would Dora the Explorer do right now?
But just to kind of help distanceourselves from our own immediate emotions.
It's a.
A tremendously effective way togain perspective and clarity and

(04:39):
have that sort of 30,000 foot, vistato look down on, rather than when
we're so immersed in our emotions.
What's your take Dillip?
Yeah, no, I think Samantha gavereally beautiful description of,
deciding for yourself what would
you do, um, and whatwould somebody else do.
So I'm want to look at it nowfrom a different perspective at

(05:01):
social advising in the sense,whom do we go to to seek advice.
Just like Samantha mentioned, wethink about what do Michelle Obama do?
So typically when people havequestions who do they approach?
Typical large family, itwould be often the grandma.
, not because she's the most educatedperson, but because she's the wisest

(05:24):
person, she has a lot of experience.
In a village, people go to thevillage elder or we talk about
senior statesmen for the country.
So who is this person whois good at giving advice?
Obviously that person has to be wise.
A wise person who doesn't giveadvice to others is not wise
because one of the characteristicsof wisdom is to help others.

(05:45):
So the wise person mustbe there to help others.
So why do we choose somebody to go to?
Because we expect that person tobe so well regulated emotionally
and otherwise that that personwould give conflict free advice.
The person would give advice that isnot necessarily in his or her selfish
interest, but what would be good for you.

(06:07):
The person is objective.
He has a lot of experience.
Somebody we trust, somebodywe respect their thinking.
And these are things where we can'tdo ourselves, you know, just like, uh,
suppose Samantha and I are physicians,uh, and we take care of ourselves.
But if we have some bigger problem,we will approach another physician.
Lawyers would choose someother lawyer to represent them.

(06:30):
Right.
So we need some outsider to help.
. And that outside person is somebodywho is following social advising.
Social advising.
And so, you're describing a person thatis, Integrated enough themself, they're
together, you might say in English slang.
They're so together that you can go tothem and they'll have something to say.

(06:52):
Now, they may not be older than you,but they have some degree of, um,
well, I'll just use your word again.
Integration that makes them, aworthy source of information.
That, That's exactly right.
I don't think the age matters here.
older people, uh, are more helpfulbecause I have tons of experience,
but that not necessarily the case.
Again, the wiser person can beyounger, than others because he has

(07:17):
experience often through different ways.
, if not personally, by watching others,uh, who have had that experience
and being a good leader, so on.
So it's, it isn't the age, it'sthe experience which contributes
to the integration of the person.
I have, an example of thatas I was thinking about that.
There's a, is a true story.
Remember the movie Sleepless in Seattle.

(07:40):
Yes.
Yes.
I think everybody on theplanet except me has seen it.
But I was talking with, or Jeff Arch,the guy that wrote the screenplay was
telling me a story, a, a group of us andhe said when his first child was born,
it was a very difficult pregnancy and hiswife was in danger at risk and there's
a lot of pressure on him, financial,family, and he was freaking out, and then

(08:05):
he did exactly what you're prescribing.
He said,
What would a hero do?
If I was writing this scene?
What would a hero do?
If I'm gonna write this screenplay,what, what action would they take?
And he said he felt a calmness andassurity of mind descend upon him.
And it's the phrase that you'reusing, Samantha, or the phrase I use

(08:27):
is a zen-like detachment from it sothat the situation doesn't overwhelm
you and that somehow lead you toa calmness that helps you make.
Well wiser decisions and itturned out well for Jeff and
his and his wife and his family.
So I'm pleased about that.
But, uh, the point is it works whenyou ask yourself, what would X do?

(08:47):
Yes.
And there's a certain amountof imagination, I think, and
creativity that that invites.
And I think, you know, Dr.
Jeste writes about this in Wiser aswell, is even when we engage with
our imaginations and we sort of plantourselves in the life of someone
else, or even in those decision makingpositions that they have, and you,
you watch a movie, you read a work offiction and you sort of expand your

(09:13):
emotional repertoire in some way.
And those exercises, you know, indoing that I think can really help
us reimagine our emotions and ourdecisions and, and kind of bring to it
a different set of, you know, not justsort of overwhelming, wait, I'm swimming
in this but actually perspective.
And so I think those can all beexercises in self distancing and.

(09:35):
That sort of zen likeperspective you're talking about?
. Well, I can tell you what I'm gonna do.
When I feel overwhelmed, I'm gonna askmyself, what would Dillip Jeste do?
And then I'm gonna know the right thing.
do that.
Point number two, you won't be wiseuntil you regulate your emotions.

(09:55):
So emotional regulation is obviously, Ithink a key component of wisdom and there
are different strategies to regulateone's emotions, but there's the Dr.
Gross model of of emotion regulation andthe process model of emotion regulation.
And this idea is that you cansort of using flexible strategies

(10:15):
When you regulate your emotions andso before you have an emotion, you
can, There's a sort of a way, likea continuum to think about before
you even the emotion hits you.
You can first, you cansituations select, right?
You can decide.
For instance, if you were invited togo to a cocktail party where your ex is

(10:35):
going to be, you could choose not to go.
And then once you're at theparty, you could situation
modify meaning in that context.
Like what else could you do?
Maybe that would be, I couldgo up and talk to that person,
or I could choose not to.
Then the next phase of sortof emotional, regulation would
be attentional deployment.
What am I going to attend to?

(10:56):
Maybe I'll go and watch karaoke overin the corner, or maybe I will just
watch my, ex flirt with his new partner.
And then the next stageof that is reappraisal.
What can I learn from this?
How could I see this differently?
I could be furious about this, maybe.
I should be happy.
He's happy.
Um, something like that.
And then the next phase wouldbe how are you going to sort of,

(11:16):
what will you, once the emotion isunderway, how will you modulate it?
That may be like, I'm gonna hit the bar.
I'm going to, go and like,go home by myself and cry.
Or I'm going to suppress myemotions and dig into them.
So these are all different strategies.
Some are before the emotion hitsyou, some actually occur afterwards.
One could deploy.

(11:37):
And the key is it's allabout flexibility, right?
So it's not to say this is the one youshould use all the time, but I think
it's, it was Aristotle who had saidto feel these feelings at the right
time, on the right occasion towardsthe right people and for the right
purpose, um, and in the right manner.
Like that's sort of what counts.
So you have all these differentstrategies to regulate your emotions.

(11:59):
And I think when we are a little bitthoughtful of, you know, sometimes if
somebody cuts you off in traffic, likeyour emotions already underway, And you
can choose to sort, you know, go into likemaybe your knee-jerk responsive rage, but
how else can you channel these emotions?
And I think looking at situationselection, situation modification,
attention deployment, reappraisal,and yeah, then emotional modification.

(12:23):
Are just strategies and they sort ofgive you a buffet table to choose from.
And your point is that there istremendous choice available to us.
I use the Smorgasborg model myself.
I mean, all these emotional responsesthat we have, and most of us just
go to the smorgasborg and choose thesame damn thing over and over again.
We're not, we're not very adventurous

(12:43):
Okay.
Some of that described verywell, sort of what do you do
before the emotion hits you?
Uh, and that's really important.
I want to think more about sort of whathappens after the emotion hits you and
you are overwhelmed by the emotion and,uh, My favorite example something in
very common in California is road rage.

(13:04):
Uh, you know, I'm going to my work.
I'm already a little late andsomebody cuts in front of me.
I'm so mad.
I'm so upset.
that I start, screaming, cursing,tailgating, uh, and I'm just so angry.
What, who is this jerk?
I mean, why did he do that?
And that really doesn't help because.

(13:24):
The risk is that, uh, if I continuethis, actually I could have an accident
and that could create far more problem.
So how do I control that?
So the natural reaction is there, Ithink, most of us would be angry when
somebody get in front of you when we arein a rush to go, But that's the time.
Then how do we control that very quickly.
So how do you do that?

(13:45):
The first and most important thingis, I think, thinking about the
motivation for the other personfor cutting in front of you.
mean, I feel angry when somebody cutsin front of me because I feel personally
insulted that that guy didn't thinkhighly of me or he wanted to show off
and he just rushed in front of me.
But that may not be the case.
So what, why would the other personmay have cut in front of me and.

(14:09):
Maybe that there's a child sitting inthe back of his car and suddenly the
child had a seizure or the child startedthrowing up, something like that.
If that happened, what would you do?
If you were doing that, you would alsocut in front of others because you just
want to rush to the emergency room orsome of the place where you need help.
So if, and whether that is a real reasonor not, that doesn't matter, but you,

(14:31):
because you don't know the real reason.
I mean, because you haven'ttalked to that person.
So you're imagining the realreason as being something bad for
you, but it could be somethingthat the other guy needs to do.
So if you think about that, theninitially your anger goes away.
Because you realize that Actually, no.
I mean, this is something Iwas wrong in getting, mad at
him that he needed to do that.

(14:52):
So that's one.
second is just distraction.
If you're listening to some music onthe radio, just increase a volume.
Think about that.
But the third is acceptthe fact that you're angry.
You have a right to beangry, but let us move on.
Because that anger isnot going to help you.
so emotional regulation is reallyboth anticipating what would happen,

(15:14):
as Samantha said, but also then whenit happens, then controlling the
emotion and what has to do that.
I mean, that should become second nature.
Uh, then only it will succeed.
. And it's so interesting the way that I think our coping strategies
are often counterproductive.
And as you alluded to earlier
too it's sort of, it's becauseit's habit and sort of when we can
uncouple those, those habits, and Dr.

(15:34):
Jeste sort of alluding to thiswhole idea of correspondence bias.
We judge ourselves by our thoughts.
You know, I'm a good person.
I'm cutting this somebody off because I'mlate to visit someone in the hospital.
But you know, we judge otherpeople by their actions.
And I think when we keep that inmind, that correspondence bias, this
disconnect between, you know, howwe judge ourselves by our thoughts,

(15:55):
like, I'm really a good person.
The reason I cut themoff is because of this.
But that guy cuts me off.
You know, I'm enraged by that.
That it, I think it again, puts thosethings, those sort of, once those emotions
are underway into perspective, I mean,I think you're still mad, but at least
you have like sort of a sense of, wait,maybe I am jumping to conclusions.
I am catastrophizing here overgeneralizing and just making

(16:15):
assumptions based on this one action.
And, it's to be used.
That movie reference, there wasthat movie about the spy, and I
remember him saying like when hewas very worried and Tom Hanks was
saying, Well, aren't you anxious?
Aren't you worried?
And he would say, Why would it help?
And I think that that's sort of a, apart of, um, a part of what we can learn.
Like would that emotion help?
Like, would that rage help?
No.

(16:36):
I have, uh, learned to do theopposite of that I have when
somebody's trying to come in.
I like to imitate the Pope and givethem that little wave, you know?
Yes, my son, you may come ahead of me andit just makes me feel so superior to them.
All right.
way number three.

(16:56):
Move towards not a way.
Be prosocial.
Not antisocial.
Yes.
I think you know of all the componentsof wisdom, the single most important
component is prosocial behaviors, andthat includes empathy, which means
understanding and sharing somebody'semotions of thought and compassion where

(17:17):
you go out and help the other person.
And that's really criticalfor human society.
We are a social species.
We need compassion not only to survive,but also to thrive and flourish.
We can't do without.
Compassion.
And yet, compassion is sometimesharder because of this.
It conflicts with a selfishinterest, but this is something

(17:38):
we need to practice consciously.
So I think about three thingsactually one can do to increase the
level of compassion towards others.
One is what is called gratitudejournal or gratitude diary.
So typically it means that before you goto bed, write a couple of things that made
you feel grateful because some strangerhelped you, but that's not enough.

(18:02):
I think we should also write a coupleof things that made us feel proud of
ourself because we help somebody else.
So we should be grateful, butwe should also be proud of our
ability to be compassionate and.
It's not a question of writing thesethings because I know many people don't
like to write this gratitude or diary orsomething, so you don't have to write it.
You can share yourexperiences with somebody.

(18:24):
you can talk to your spouse, partner,friend, colleague, or you can even
just record it, whatever it is,but just make a habit to do that.
The second thing is volunteering.
Set aside some hours in a week when you dosomething that's not a part of your work.
And whatever is feasible, of course,and whatever you enjoy, whether it
means spending time in a nursing hometo help some people with dementia

(18:49):
or to work in a foster care homeor place where there are children
with, uh, autism spectrum disorder.
When you do that even for afew hours a week, that makes
those people feel very good.
You feel proud of yourself.
And your self esteem goes up becauseyou know that you're helping others
and they're appreciating that.

(19:09):
So volunteering is really important.
And the third thing I stress ismeeting people who are different
from you, different or differentin the color of your skin.
different, in their age or, uh, differentin their beliefs, whatever it is.
Because typically we are brought up ina family and then in a community where

(19:32):
most people are like us, you know, we goto school, and encountering people who
are different from us is hard actually,because we are not used to that.
And so the initial reaction to that issometimes fear, sometimes oftentimes
anxiety, and sometimes anger.
And the way to overcome that is,again, understanding those people.

(19:55):
So just by meeting with them, wecan understand sort of where they're
coming from, what is their rationale,and once we appreciate that, we
don't have to agree with them orthey don't have to agree with us.
But we have better understandingand more acceptance of the fact that
they can have different, processes.
, I think that's important forimproving our compassion.
. So gratitude, diary, volunteeringand hanging out with people who

(20:19):
are different than, than me.
Than you.
Good sense.
No, I, I mean, Iwholeheartedly agree with Dr.
Jeste just said, and I, I think that Inthe West we really interiorized wellbeing
this idea that like, sort of everythinghappiness comes from within and that.
It's such a narrow way, I think, forus to be thinking about our wellbeing.

(20:41):
And really happiness comes from withdoing things with others, for others
and in the you know, in the serviceof something larger than what we are.
And, it's with immediate lovedones, you know, It's obviously
with the importance of friends.
I also think we have, wevalue so much in the west.
Our romantic partners and our immediatefamily and not considering how the

(21:03):
importance of having friends and actuallythe importance of having friends and
having great friends is also very goodfor marriages and, romantic relationships
and also strangers, you know, people.
And as, as Dr.
Jeste also, comments onis people we don't know.
And in theory, I think in ourimaginations, people who are
different from us are much scarier,but it's when we break bread.

(21:23):
We've seen studies show that you canreally reduce bias by encountering
somebody, actually meeting somebody,having a coffee with somebody
who is different than you are.
A lot of those fears are dispelled,and certainly when you share something,
share a meal, share a coffee, thatalso sort of helps dissipate it.
But, prosocial acts, I mean,probably the most reliable.

(21:45):
contributor to our wellbeing.
And it's not just, we know that it's a,we have a fundamental human need to belong
and to be valued, but I think also we havea fundamental human need to add value.
And wisdom is really at the nexus ofthat because it is, you know, you,
you see an individual's qualities thatcan make them wiser, but also in the

(22:05):
context then of, of their relationships,their occupation, their communities,
that expanding world that they inhabit.
And engaging in those pro-social acts.
And what's so interesting is peopleoften forego opportunities to behave
pro socially or to do somethingfor someone else because they don't
think it's gonna make a difference.
They think the person won'tnotice or it won't matter to them.

(22:27):
And I say, I think there's so manyeveryday opportunities that we're
not taking, or we assume we're goingto be just too hard or overwhelming,
but as you said, sometimes itcan be just, you know, waving the
person in front of you in traffic.
It can be sort of in theselittle micro moments of kindness
in these small gestures.
It can go a long way.
And when people are actively engaging inthose pro-social gestures with adolescent.

(22:47):
Teenagers.
The study was shown that, you know,even a month later, then they're
much more actively prosocial.
It's almost like a, a putting ona different pair of glasses and
because it also makes them feel good.
So are you too suggesting that staringat my phone night and day when I'm
at the dinner table or with otherpeople is somehow less than Prosocial?

(23:07):
That's definitely a vitality vampire.
alright, way to wisdom numberfour, practice compassion,
starting with yourself.
Yeah, I mean, this is, self-compassionis really part of compassion.
We don't often realize that, that whenwe talk about compassion, we talk about

(23:27):
compassion to other, and that's critical.
Absolutely critical.
But.
Being compassionate to oneselfis actually equally important.
Um, you know, the usual example I giveas people know that is, you're sitting
in a plane, the plane takes off, andthe security video comes on and it says
that, uh, if the air pressure falls,the masks will come out and put on your

(23:50):
own mask first before helping others.
And you say, How can you do that?
There's a child sitting on one side anda disabled person on the other side.
You're in the middle seat.
How should you help not helpthem before helping yourself?
And the reason is, of course, that it'lltake just a few seconds for you to put
on your own mask, but then it'll giveyou enough time to help the people on

(24:14):
both sides and even others if needed.
So we had to take care of ourselvesbefore we can help others.
I mean, I see we all see some verycompassionate people, whether they're
priest, physicians, or others.
Or very compassionate towardothers, but on themselves,
they don't forgive themselves.
That's not a good idea.

(24:35):
because your own wellbeing isimportant to allow you to help
others and the ways to help with theself-compassion, there are several ways.
One is, the sense of common humanity.
If you make a mistake, Don'tblame yourself too much.
Everybody makes mistakes, so accept thefact and then really find out why you made

(24:58):
a mistake, how you won't make the mistakenext time, but don't spend too much time
and energy just criticizing yourself.
You got to move on.
Second is self kindness.
When a friend comes to you in a stressfulsituation, you say, Oh, it's okay.
Just calm down.
If it's all right, you know,things will get better.
Why don't you do that to yourself?
So there should be self-kindness.

(25:19):
And the third thing is realizingthat no matter almost what happens,
but we have been there and we havedone that and something goes wrong.
It looks like it's the end of the world.
No, it's not the end of the world.
Things will come out and, Oneexample of this actually was
during Covid pandemic, both.
Samantha and I are geriatric psychiatristand, geriatric psychiatrists were very

(25:41):
worried about what is going to happenwith the older people because they had a
very high risk of physical complications.
They were more likely to behospitalized, intubated, and die.
Also, they didn't have access totechnology, unlike younger people, or
they were not familiar with technology.
So younger people, the social distancingguidelines didn't impact too much because

(26:04):
they could still connect with others.
Older people couldn't do that, soolder people were at high risk, of
feeling anxious, depressed, stressedout, you know, what happened?
Numerous studies showed thatolder people handle Covid
much better than younger ones.
There a study that was published,uh, recently in one of the
journals, they found that 15%, onefive, 15% of people over 65 had

(26:31):
stress, anxiety, or depression.
What was the incidence in younger people?
People within 18 and 25?
75%?
The younger people, although they hadno physical problem, although they
had access to all the technologies,very sophisticated, they were five
times more likely to experiencedepression, anxiety, and stress.

(26:54):
And one of the main reasons we talkedto several older people that we worked
with, number of them said the reason was.
They knew that they have beenthere, they have been through
that, and they have done that.
They have experienced othercrisis, like war, uh, or drought,
financial recession losses.
So for them it was not theworld's worst thing to happen.

(27:16):
For many younger people, it was.
So that's a good way of looking atself-compassion is knowing that you have
been through stresses, you came out ofthat and you've come out of this also.
And that dovetails so well with,you know, those studies looking at.
Young people who know the arcof their family story, they know

(27:38):
that there have been good times.
They know that there have beenreally challenging times that
they know that, their family wentthrough this really difficult.
Phase their great grandparents, hada very difficult time and they, they
know the arc and the ups and the downsactually are also more resilient.
Um, having that sense of a familyhistory, because like, I think again,
it gives them some sense of context.

(28:00):
And it's Daniel Gilbert atHarvard who talks about.
This idea of having compassion and selfcompassion, that the key to having it
is, is courage, even more than kindnessbecause you have to have the courage
to be willing even to, to see into thenature and the cause of suffering of your
own or for some of, of somebody else's.
And we often have these sort of, youknow, I think we'll, we'll sort of

(28:23):
end up in these thinking traps orcatastrophizing or overgeneralizing.
This is the worst possible case scenario.
You take things personally, itseems permanent, it seems pervasive.
Nothing will ever get better.
And I think that explanatory stylethat, that, you know, well, maybe
this, you know, it's temporary, maybe.
Is there something I could learn here?

(28:44):
You know, maybe this other pandemicshave ended, that kind of thing.
And I think when you sort of dotreat yourself as one, would a
friend, it almost reminds me ofthat new Adele song Go Easy on me.
Like, can you go easyon yourself in some way.
one strategy or one exercise I've usedwith patients is just arguing with
your inner critic saying, you know,what evidence do you have for that?
And is this sort of trying to sortof be a lawyer there and say, you

(29:06):
know, is this a a fact or an opinion?
On a previous podcast I haddi quoting Michael Jackson.
Now I've got you quoting Adele.
So . Well, okay, now, nowthat reminds me of something.
The Dali Lama was at a, no,I think a US university.
And somebody.
Participant in this seminar thatthey did not like themselves.

(29:28):
They felt bad about themselves,and the Dali Lama was absolutely
astonished because it wassuch a weird concept for him.
So he went around the room and everyonepretty much said the same thing, that
they didn't like themselves very much.
They felt bad towards themselves,and he thought this was so totally
abhorrent in nature and of course.

(29:51):
He's right, because it is, and yetit is so, so very, very common.
And that's why I think the importance,two important things about this, this
way is yes, practice, compassion,start with yourself cuz you're
probably the person that needs it most.
And the other thing that Iwish to underscore, and I'd
like your comments about this.
To me the most important wordin that phrase is practice.

(30:14):
Practice.
So practicing compassion,starting with yourself, does
that ring a bell with you folks?
Yes, absolutely.
I think all these good things wetalk about that we need to do,
they should become second nature.
Then only we will succeed.
I mean, if we had to think aboutthat and practice it are are once in
a while, that's not going to work.

(30:34):
I mean, good example isphysical exercise, right?
I mean, if you do a lot ofexercise one day and then, uh, are
sedentary for the rest of the week.
That's not going to help at all.
So too small.
Increase the amount of things you do,but you must practice it continuously.
No question about that.
Yeah, I would think that wisdom is a verb.

(30:57):
You know, it's something that one hasto sort of practice and do on a daily
basis, and I think even sometimesit's like Groundhog Day for many of
us, even though we know somethingmakes us feel better or we know that.
this is important.
We still might not do it.
I think we underestimate sometimes justhow unbelievably lazy most of us are.
So sometimes how important it isjust to make that thing that you

(31:17):
want to do easier to even at oncea week have a sort of check in.
State of the Union, am Idoing those things that I,
you know, claim to want to do?
There's an exercise that Robert Brookshas written about asking, what three
words would you hope that your childrenor your partner, or your friends or your
coworkers would use to describe you?

(31:39):
And, um, Then what do you do ona regular basis to invite those,
that those descriptions of you?
And then the third questionis, what do you think?
What words do you think they wouldactually use to describe you?
And then the fourth part of thatis, you know, how could you close
that gap and have more overlapbetween you know, what you do and

(32:00):
how they experience you as well.
Just the idea really around thatbeing like, are we walking our walk?
Are.
we affirming our values?
Are we embodying what we careabout in, in an everyday way?
And I think it is, it is a, a practice.
And that's why I thinkwisdom truly is a, is a verb.
Which takes us to.
Lesson number five, Affirm a value today.

(32:23):
My first question is, what's a value?
you know, people often will tell mewhen we do, I often, on the first time
I meet them, I'll ask them to do somekind of values, affirmation, exercise,
say name three things you valuemost and it's something people don't
think about, they don't reflect on.
And I'll usually then sort of givethem a list and ask them just like,
what is most meaningful to you?
What do you stand for?

(32:44):
what matters most to you?
and just asking themto come up with a list.
Maybe it's their health, it'stheir a relationship with friends,
family, their being, being creative,being artistic, whatever those
sort of three to five core values.
Identifying them and then also describinglike, why is this important to you?
Why is this meaningful to you?

(33:06):
And this isn't just hollow sortof self-esteem boosting work.
It's really kind of asking themto reflect on, on what matters.
And then I often will ask them then,all right, how do you spend your time?
Or even especially your free time, andwhat did you do for instance, on Saturday?
And, you know, they say, Well,I fell down this, you know,
internet hole and I lay in bed.

(33:28):
Or I, you know, I wasn't sort of doingthose things that, that I do value.
And then kind of trying to create moreoverlap between what you deeply value
and hold dear, and, and that that helpsyou feel that that's the core of who
you are and then actually what you'redoing and that you're walking your walk.
And to go back to this idea ofpositive psychiatry, It's not just

(33:49):
sort of, I think we've been so focusedon what's the matter in traditional
psychiatry, What's the matter with you?
And then this is reallylooking at what matters to you.
And having our, our patients and, andhaving all of us, I think, can benefit
from doing more of what matters.
And that's really, I thinkwhat the sort of values, uh,
affirmation exercise is about.

(34:11):
Yeah, that, that's really very well said.
exactly.
I think this is, uh, we don't ask people,and again, as physicians, the questions
we ask is, So what brought you here?
What is wrong with you?
What are the symptoms?
We never ask them, What doyou like about yourself?
What are your strengths?
What would you like to do?

(34:31):
And because the value is also ina way related to the purpose in
life, that if we value somethinghighly, that really becomes a
purpose in life for us to achieve.
But we don't think about that.
Most people don't.
And you know, we just asking thatquestion actually sets these things going.
And sometimes just actually askinga question, assessment itself

(34:52):
becomes intervention, right?
So for the first time, Wow.
I mean, nobody asked me what mystrengths were or what my values were
or what my purpose was because thenyou set up, start prioritizing things.
I mean, we all have to do a bunchof different things to survive, but
there are other things which we reallyenjoy and we don't think about them.
So this kind of questioning is reallyhelpful, to set up self-reflection.

(35:17):
And just as you are talking,earlier about, making it, habit,
so saying practice, I think this isespecially necessary for self reflect.
You know, we set asidetime for physical exercise.
Most of us too, you know, thatat least five days a week in the
evening, or three days a week or inthe morning, whatever, Why don't we
set aside time for self-reflection.

(35:40):
It doesn't need to be huge amount oftime, but let's say half an hour, twice
a week, once on a weekend, once on aweekday, and where they think about
ourselves, what we have been doing, whatmade us happy, what made us stressed out.
If we do that we'll understandourselves better because there is
a pattern of things that emerges.
We sort of similar things that.

(36:02):
Make us stressed out and similarthings that make us happy,
but we don't think about that.
So just thinking about that, actuallywe'll bring them to the fore.
We'll start to understand thepattern, and then we can do
something to change it as needed.
okay.
Let me explain to you theproblem with all that.
Right now I've lived inAustralia for 40 years.

(36:23):
I'm not in Australia.
I'm in Brazil at the moment, but here isthe problem I've had over and over again.
I'll tell it as a joke, but it's true.
I could give a blank piece of paperand a pen to an Australian kid or
adult, and I say, Write down fivethings you like about yourself.
And they'd go, Ah, gee, do Ihave to, Now I could do the same

(36:46):
exercise with an American kid or anadult, and the American kid would.
I'm gonna need more paper.
I'm just, I'm just gonnaneed more paper, man.
I mean, just this one sheet, you know?
So it is just really difficultfor some people to, you pose that
question, but they got no answer.
So, so what do we do then?
How do we help them articulate andget in touch and, and espouse these

(37:09):
good things they have within them?
One question that I've found tobe helpful to sort of dig through
that is, you know, tell me abouta time when you were at your best.
Tell me about like a moment whereyou were really proud, you know, of,
of something you did, where you feltyou know, strong and that you felt
proud and that you could describe it.
Can you even write about that ifthey can write even a paragraph about

(37:31):
it and then kind of pick out like,well, That, that, you know, you're
so animated as you speak about that.
Can, can we, we hear more about that?
Wow.
It sounds like you were reallybeing creative if you did that, or
that was, I mean, most people whenthey talk about this, it's really,
it's so rarely individually based.
It's always in the context of others.
Even, you know, whenpeople ever come to see us.
It might be because they have a problem,but then you realize it's always

(37:53):
somehow inter relational in some way.
But it's also when people are trulyat their best, even asking people
who are psychotic, you know, askingthem about like, tell me, even on
the unit, what was something thatwas good that happened this week.
It's always, Well, you know, I madethis piece of, I made this drawing
and I gave it to somebody else here.
The nurse really liked it.
You know that there's somethingthat is reflected back to them.

(38:14):
Again, that goes into this ideaof that not only are they valued,
but they're adding value somewhereelse, and that really is the
definition of mattering in the world.
And so if we can sort of maybe throughthe back door get to that, those, those
values, and maybe it is telling you abouta time that you're at the your best or.
What are you looking forward to this week?
What are you going to do again,closing that intention, action

(38:37):
gap for them, so it's not justsomething that's living in your head.
And I think Dilip and I both feelreally strongly about this, that
happiness isn't just in your head.
It's sort of in the actions you takeand the connections you make and how
you participate out in the world.
I think Samantha makes a veryreal terrific point that you need
to think about the situations.
I think when we ask an abstract questionlike what you like about yourself,

(39:00):
it's really hard to think about that.
But if you ask about situations inwhich you like yourself most, You
were most proud of, most happy with.
That actually helps because they'rethe stories that they remember.
And so same thing applies againfor self-reflection, where you
think about what stressed youout and what made you happy.

(39:21):
So again, if you do that regularly,we start realizing what are our
strengths and what are our limitations.
And they might be different fromwhat we were thinking about because
now because we are associatingthem with specific situations,
You can see a pattern emerging.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, let's proceed to way number six.

(39:43):
Think best, worst, and most likely.
That is to say, think in termsof what's best, what's worst,
and what's most likely to occur.
let me answer that question.
So this really is a questionof accepting uncertainty.
and in a way this goes to issue ofhumility, which is that if I think

(40:07):
that I know the best and I know whatwill happen, obviously I'm wrong
because I don't, there is so muchuncertainty because I don't know so much.
Let alone being able to predict something.
so humility is actually an integralpart of wisdom, which is part
of self-reflection in a way.
So self-reflection means understandingyour strength, but also importantly

(40:28):
understanding your limitation.
. So people kind and self-compassionis important, but people who
are narcissistic, who are alot of self-compassion, they're
not self reflecting either.
And that was one of Socrates' point,he said that anybody who thinks, uh,
his wise is a fool because a wiseperson knows how much he doesn't know.
that there is so much uncertainty.

(40:49):
There is no single right way to do that.
That there are multiple ways thatwe to find out what's the right way.
So to me it's sort of morequestion of accepting sort of
diversity of perspectives andlack of confidence in certainty.
I think that's, uh, whatis important here to me.
, absolutely.
That like epistemic humilityjust to bring to everything.

(41:11):
And even having that around.
You know, one's feelings and emotions.
That's probably one of the mostfundamental tenets of CBT is
that your feelings aren't facts.
You know that just becauseyou feel a certain way.
It's really, you have beliefsusually about something and then that
leads to other feelings about it.
So how do you uncouple your beliefsabout, you know, Maybe that person

(41:33):
didn't wave at me across thestreet, it means that they hate me.
Maybe my friend now isn't going to inviteme to something, but that's sort a belief.
And then you'll have theseemotions as a consequence of that.
And sort of bringing humilityto this and thinking How else
could I explain this in some way?
And I think we've been hearing somuch about uncertainty during the
pandemic and how difficult it is.
But I agree with Dr.

(41:54):
Jeste that certainty isalmost more toxic in some way.
And having certainty is an illusionat best, being certain about anything.
And there's a, I think it's Chris Conlanwho has this fascinating, he calls him
emotional equations and he writes anxiety.
Equals uncertainty times, powerlessnessand uncertainty is a lack of knowledge.

(42:17):
And powerlessness is a lack of control.
But actually there's a lot that wedo have, you know, that we do know.
And there's actually quitea lot that we can control.
So you can really dial down youranxiety when you make a list of it.
Okay, well what?
What do I actually know?
And there are some facts herethat aren't just opinions.
And actually, what do I have power over?
Maybe I'm, I feel like I'm notsleeping at all, but I do have

(42:39):
the power to turn my phone off andleave it in another room rather than
checking it all night, you know?
So what are those things that youkind of have something over and when
you're really overwhelmed with likeanxiety about uncertainty, you can
consider the worst case scenario, likewhat would be the epic disaster here?
Then what would be the extreme opposite?
What would be the best case scenario,and then what would be the most likely.

(43:00):
Outcome.
We also know for people who are managinguncertainty and who are really having
a hard time waiting, and human beingsreally don't like to wait for things.
And we know people would rather getelectric shocks than have to wait
long periods of time in, in a lab.
We're, we're just really bad at waitingis really almost, the antidote for
that is finding flow in something.
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi idea offlow when you can lose yourself

(43:23):
in some activity if it's.
If it's walking in the park, ifit's reading a book, if it's playing
an instrument, if it's cooking,if it's gardening, whatever that
activity is, because it's a veryhelpful and and productive way to
manage that stress of uncertainty.
and we are living in a time of radicaluncertainty is a phrase that I read
recently, but we always have been.

(43:46):
And it's just how we insulate ourselves.
your comment, Samantha, about, youknow, impatience, unwillingness to wait.
It reminds me of a friendof mine said decades ago.
He said I was the only person he everwatched stand in front of a working
microwave, muttering hurry up, God damnit,as if radiation isn't fast enough for me.
So it's sad, but it's true.

(44:08):
It's very funny.
Well, okay, Samantha'stalking about, um, reframing.
So that takes us to our next point,and I reckon this may be one of the
single most important things anyonecan learn, can hear, reframe the
meaning of these so-called bad events.
so we define good or bad event,based on the immediate outcome,

(44:32):
it's the short term outcome.
So it is like, you know, in, uh,sports, in the baseball game, the coach
selects a reliever for the 9th innings.
and, it turns out to be a wrong decisionbecause somebody on the opposite
side, they hit a home run and theywin the match, and it's a bad event.

(44:53):
However, what happens to the teamis that they realize that they made
a mistake and they're now behind.
So they work very hard and theywin the next five games and
then they go into the playoffs.
So what was actually bad event becamea good event and so on and so forth.
So there is this fable that many peopleknow about, a farmer and a horse.
That the farmer had a horse andthat was his prize possession,

(45:16):
the only prize possession.
And one day the horse died.
So he was totally desperate,distraught, and he said that
his life almost is, has ended.
But the villagers, they realized thathe has lost what was most important.
So they bought three horses for him.
So what was a bad event?
Turned to be a good event thathe got three horses and then

(45:36):
his son was training them.
He fell and broke his leg,so that became a bad event.
But then there was a draft.
People were conscripted intothe military and his son was not
drafted because of his injury.
So that became a good event.
So, So that's the thing.
That could begets bad, bad begetsgood, and that goes on and on and on.

(45:59):
So our judging, something as good or bad.
Based on short term outcome is wrong,longer term outcome would be different.
And so we need the patients tosee how it works out rather than
immediately jump into conclusions basedon immediate, short term outcomes.
Yes.
And, and that idea of kind of thisbinary bias, things are good or they're

(46:21):
bad, I think our, our brains go tothat sort of black and white thinking.
But you know, when we are able to seethings in context, and fascinatingly,
this huge study just came out, Ithink it was across 87 countries,
over 20,000 participants, and.
The researchers were asking thissimple question like, Can we help
people feel better during the pandemic?
And the answer was yes.

(46:43):
And it was asking them to learnthe most basic skill of cognitive
reappraisal, which you know,was what can I learn from this?
Is there anything positivethat, that could come of this?
And being able to sort of just take thatdifferent type of perspective and uncouple
again, your thoughts from your emotions.
It's so key because.

(47:04):
When we're so sort of mired insomething that we, it's kind
of impossible to see that.
But if you take that step back and think,is there something here that I can learn?
Maybe there, maybe it's really hardbeing in lockdown, but maybe I could,
you know, start baking or I canspend some more time with family.
It's kind of meaningful to me.
So I think that there's potential there.
That said I think we have to be supercareful about like that slippery

(47:25):
slide into toxic positivity and thatthere's always something good here.
You know, sometimes things canbe maybe unequivocally bad and
there isn't that positive sense.
Um, you know, that there isn't necessarilysome silver lining post traumatic
growth or post pandemic growth is notnecessarily always a given outcome.

(47:47):
But is there something to learn from this?
And the good news is humanbeings are extremely resilient.
People tend to bounce back.
It is the norm.
It's not the exception.
And I think that's something we forgetquite a bit as well, that, that resilience
is really in our nature and in our bones.
Obviously it has to do with socialsupport and wisdom and a lot of

(48:07):
other factors, but it's, it's morelikely to happen to us than not.
And it's, it's part of a skillset as well.
you mentioned, Samantha, CBT, cognitiveBehavior Therapy, and which is basically
a way of thinking yourself out of whateveryou're into thinking yourself healthy.
It interrupts that catastrophizing,you know, that that spiraling into this

(48:29):
is, you know, the end of the world.
This is always gonna happen to me.
Woe is me.
And so it really just robs you ofthat ability to have perspective
and to actually learn from it.
And we underestimate, and I think it'ssomething I really underestimated in
my training to become a psychiatrist.
We underestimate the roleof positive emotions.
These are sort of are lifeblood, andI'm not talking about sort of rainbows

(48:51):
and unicorns, but actually genuinepositive emotions, that sense of joy,
those transcendent emotions of ofgratitude that one can feel or awe.
You know, when you witnesssomething, spectacular.
But that, that when we can cognitivelyreappraise something in the context of
CBT, we, we give ourselves the opportunityto have positive emotions and we can

(49:12):
even have, we have this emo diversity.
Even when we've looked at studiesof caregivers or people, you know,
dying with the terminal illness,those were able to say, Well, there
was this funny moment when we lookedout the window and saw this, You.
Pigeon going to the bathroom on the,you know, on, on, on the, on the
window or there was something funny.
And being able to find even that sort ofjoy within the, the sadness and even that

(49:33):
wellness within illness is something thatwe need to sort of remind ourselves to do.
And again, that skill buildingof what's good here, and not in
a Pollyanna way, but actually ina very meaningful, impactful way.
You mentioned toxicpositivity, which I wrote down.
So what?
What is that?
I think I got a pretty good idea,but I want to hear your view of it.

(49:54):
Just that idea of like, Oh,put a smile on your face.
Everything's going to be just fine.
we have emotions about ouremotions, you know, And so this
pressure to be happy all the time
.and that you sort of have pathologized some of the very normal reactions
of, of feeling disappointed, feeling.
Being down about something,or being stressed out.

(50:16):
Even these are normal.
And I think sometimes there is thispressure to sort of have that rainbows
and unicorns life and just thinkeverything's going to be just great.
And people are grievingsometimes and maybe.
Psychiatrist are we jumpingin there to sort of like, let
me, help you through this.
Where sometimes these are justnatural processes that are occurring
in natural emotions to, to befeeling and, and to allow for them?

(50:39):
and to learn from them.
Proceeding two lesson number.
Eight, Build the habit of good enough.
First of all, how do we build that?
This is idea.
It's around, I think being decisive.
It is such a, also animportant component of wisdom.
It's how, how can we decide to decideand not living in that sort of tumbleweed

(51:01):
zone where we're sort of feeling blownabout by, by other people's whims and
other schedules and that kind of thing.
And it, people who are, you can seewhat's called maximizers or satisfiers.
Maximizers are the ones.
Do everything they can.
They're doing all the research.
Should I order that hamburgeror should I order that tuna melt
and what's going to be better?

(51:22):
And they'll find, read reviews ononline to see which one's better.
But the exhaustion that goes into thator the are just what's good enough.
And so kind approachingdecisions with that in mind.
And I think we, we have many occasions inour everyday life to practice satisfying.
And so you can just sort ofhelp reduce your stress by.

(51:42):
You know when you're going to buysome salad dressing or some toothpaste
just reaching for it blindly, justgrab that one rather than sort of
thinking, doing all the research.
Should I get this one?
Should I get that one?
Because the problem with maximizing whenwe're doing so much work, we're pouring so
much into these decisions, is we end up.
With regret, and regret is a verycomplex emotion, but this idea

(52:08):
should have, would've, could have,that we are sort of ruminating about
and we're stuck swimming in that.
And so it only makes us, itmakes it impossible to joy
to enjoy what we've chosen.
And we're also sort of living inthis like liminal space of what,
what we should have done otherwise.
And so I think being comfortable in withsatisfysing, you know, it could be as
much as what should I order for lunch?

(52:29):
I think one of the, the best.
treatments or antidotes forthis also is gratitude what Dr.
Jeste was talking about.
It's almost impossible when you'repracticing gratitude or thinking
about what you're grateful forto be regretful about something.
And so just sort of being gratefulthat you even have an option and
then choosing it and not lookingback and thinking, Oh, I, you know,

(52:51):
we're looking at pictures of what youcould have been doing or whatever.
Was the better choice to make.
And I think being comfortable withthat because, and understanding that
even being disappointed is kind of apart of life and otherwise we can get
stuck and ruminated it and then we canall get better at being satisfiers.
a satisfier.
How would you describe that to aperson who's never heard the term?

(53:13):
Satisfysing is a strategy of decisionmaking where you're, we are willing
to make a good enough decision ratherthan striving for the very best
decision because we, you know, put outa lot of energy and time and money,
you know, sometimes looking to makethe very best decision and we will.
End up when we are, when we aremaximizing, which is, you know,
when we're looking for the very bestpossible decision where we're spending

(53:35):
that time and money and energy andeffort looking for that, we often
end up disappointed, frustrated,and we idealize the alternative.
Like, Oh, if only I haddone that, if only I had.
Chosen this one and we endup sort of full of regret.
And so making peace with the good enough.
Uh, and it's not, this isn't compromising,I think, or settling, but I think
making peace with that good enoughoption can help us and be sort of one

(53:59):
of those, those strategies, it reallydoes, um, help us to be more decisive.
Another one I found to be super helpfulis looking at pre-mortem decision making.
Mm-hmm.
, when if you are faced with a decision,you know, and you can look, you're
sort of imagining yourself intothe future and you've made that
decision and thinking, you know, andeverything actually worked out, it

(54:19):
was the wrong decision to have made.
Sort of tracing back those breadcrumbs,thinking, what led you to do that?
And so just as a way to be alittle bit more thoughtful because.
It's something that we don't, aspsychiatrists, I think take seriously
enough, is the ability to be decisive andhow that contributes to our wellbeing.
Because feeling passive, feeling likeyou're a tumbleweed, feeling that life is

(54:40):
happening to you is really devitalizingin every way, and actually sort of
feeling like you're in charge and takingcontrol and having that sense of agency is
really like a contributor to flourishing.
And I think obviously wisdom too.
I think when we talk aboutdecisiveness, sometimes people confuse
that with making quick decisions.

(55:01):
, that's actually not the case.
Some decisions need to be quick.
There's no question about that.
For example, for soldiers in a war,you know, I mean, they have to make
instantaneous decisions, but mostdecisions in life are not like that.
. And what one should remember isthat perfect should not be the
enemy of good, that we strive herperfection when it is not possible.

(55:26):
I mean, just like ideal is idealbecause it is not achievable.
So we shouldn't try to do that,
Well, I think sometimes there'sthis sort of even allergy to feeling
those negative emotions and thatwe're just so reactive to them.
So we, we feel anger, we feelhostility, you know, we feel
rage in some way and then, we'll,it'll bubble up in our behaviors.
But, so really what, what I'masking people to do then is

(55:50):
not to suppress them at all.
I mean, I think that's probably oneof the worst things we can do for our,
our blood pressure and our heart rate.
And we know long term, that'snot a good strategy for anybody.
But just to be able to sort ofshine that flashlight and say,
What can I learn from this?
How can this help me evenre-go right now I'm feeling a

(56:11):
certain way, but this is data.
This is data that I can take in.
This is informationthat is being fed to me.
I mean, think of it as likeyou're looking at a spreadsheet
so I can turn my back on it.
I can ignore.
Or even, you know, I can repeat thesame mistake over and over again,
or what can I learn from this?

(56:33):
And I, I really think if you can takethat as data and information of like,
maybe I'm deeply offended by this.
Maybe this reminds me of something whereI felt totally useless in the past.
Maybe I, you know, that you can kindof understand it a little bit more,
and I think this way you'll get offthe merry go round of just having these
knee jerk responses to things when youunderstand where these emotions, like

(56:54):
these underlying emotions are coming from.
if you, you have a hypothesis.
We always are.
We have a hypothesis like, thishappened because that person's awful.
Or you know, I have to wear amask because the world is crazy.
Or, you know, this person voted for thatcandidate because that, you know, that
this person must also be an awful person.
You know, these assumptions that wemake about the world and about other

(57:15):
people, and actually like one of, Ithink the most important things to
learn and it's really contributed towisdom, is the importance of being wrong.
and actually, you know, sort ofcelebrating that and even seeing, I mean,
I think I've never been more gratifiedwhen I've made assumptions about a patient
that probably, you know, wouldn't be ableto recover maybe from substance abuse
or,, I didn't imagine having a certaintrajectory and running into them in the

(57:38):
street several years later, and justthe ability to be wrong, to acknowledge
you're wrong and we wrong all the time.
We need to celebrate that more.
I have a colleague who said, andI, it is a phrase he used one
time, and I've used it ever since.
If I'm wrong, I'm happybecause I've learned, you
know, we learned a better way.
And so I, I say that to myself,personally, uh, and frequently, to

(57:59):
Samantha's point, making an efforttrying to investigate your own
thoughts and feelings, it will leadyou somewhere to something, and then
you simply flash that light on itand something will move within you.
Something will shift, maybe a little,maybe or lot, but worth a try.

(58:20):
All right, well then let usproceed to, tip number 10.
Look up, Find your own spirituality.
Yeah.
So, so our original review ofwisdom and the conference, uh, that
we talked about did not includespirituality, mainly because this

(58:41):
is somewhat controversial entity.
So after definitions of wisdom thathave been used, If you look at the
ancient definitions in the scriptures,of course all of them talk about not
just spirituality, but religiousitybelief in God organized religion.
Spirituality is differentfrom religiousity.
You know, an atheist can be spiritual.

(59:02):
So to me, spirituality means feelingconnected to something or someone
that we don't see hear or perceive.
People may call it spirit or soulor consciousness or God, that
doesn't matter, whatever it is.
But there are also, I find many peoplewho's actually strongly object to

(59:22):
spirituality as a component of wisdom.
My feeling is that part of that comesfrom the terminology, the word spirit
is not really a good, good term.
I mean, it is somewhat, uncertain,almost esoterical, and people have
different conceptions of that.
So I wish we could replace thatword spirit with something else.
People will accept that becauseI do think that we all need

(59:47):
to have a belief in something.
That will not change in our own mind,not in reality, but in our own mind.
We need that.
We need that a source of comfort,no matter what the stress is at,
that won't happen with other humanbeings because human being, they
have their own stresses, so theywon't always be able to support us.
So this concept behind is thathaving something or someone,

(01:00:12):
whatever that you believe in.
So when something goes wrong, instead ofblaming yourself or I mean others, you
said, that is, that was meant to happen.
And actually it is meant becauseit'll lead to something good later on.
So I grew up in India.
And in India there is belief inreincarnation and, Again, it's not a
question of whether it happens or not.

(01:00:33):
I mean, not very likely it doesn't, butthat belief in reincarnation is actually
very helpful because when people getold, when they get very sick, they're
about to die, they talk about whatthey will do in the next birth, and
they talk about, We will, I hope thatyou are my spouse in my next birth.
Or you're not my spouse inmy next birth, whatever, it's

(01:00:58):
So it gives you a feeling of continuityand that makes you feel good.
There's something you believe in.
So instead of resorting to drugs or someother things that people do when they're
stressed out, what is wrong in believingin something that may or may not exist?
People may not agree with that,but if that, for that person,

(01:01:20):
that's a sense of comfort.
I don't think there'sanything wrong with that.
And actually there are a number ofempirical studies now coming out about
not just spirituality, but religiousitythat have clearly shown that objective
majors show that religiousity.
Is associated with better health, not justmental health, better physical health,

(01:01:41):
cognitive function, and even longevity.
And I think, I really thinkthat that's probably true.
And the reason is not thespecific religion or the
specific belief it teaches.
Having that source of comfort,belief, trust you have that
cannot be changed for you.
It is great to have that whenyou can go and approach that

(01:02:01):
when you are stressed out.
And that, sense of, community that,you know, that that provides, but also
the, those self transcendent emotionsthat are so important to our wellbeing
when, we're not so self-absorbed orself immersed when we are able to.
transcend that.
me, myself, and I sense of self andI've always been fascinated by even

(01:02:25):
those studies looking at atheists whenyou know something negative happens,
there's some negative life event thatthey too will often say, Well, you
know, something happens for a reason.
Like there is something, some kindof explanation that even somebody
who unequivocally says, I don'tbelieve in any of this stuff.
Does sort of seek some other explanation,something larger than oneself.

(01:02:50):
And, and you know, we know that it'sactually helped people manage the
pandemic that, to get through that.
And it's, been valued.
And I guess it's really the question comesdown to how do we define spirituality
or, or religion if it's not in a formalway, but it's, um, in a way somebody
experiences, in their community andwith self transcendent experiences.

(01:03:12):
Okay, I think we will finish there today.
You've been listening tothe podcast 10 lessons.
It took me 50 years to learn.
My name is Duff Watkinsand our guest have been Dr.
Dillip Jeste, neuropsychpsychiatrist at the University of
California, San Diego, and also Dr.
Samantha Boardman fromprivate practice at Manhattan.
She is the author of the book.
Every day vitality, turningstress into strength.

(01:03:34):
And Dr.
Jeste, author of the bookWise, The Scientific Roots of
Wisdom, You've heard from us.
We'd like to hear from you.
You can email uspodcast@10lessonslearn.com
and while you're at it.
Go ahead and get to subscribe buttonbecause this podcast is the one
that makes the world a wiser place.
Lesson by lesson.

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Dr Dilip Jeste and Dr Samantha Boardman - Build the Habit of “Good Enough”

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dr Dilip Jeste and Dr Samantha Boardman - Build the Habit of “Good Enough”