Dr Nora Gold - Create space for creativity

                                   

Dr Nora Gold asks us “If not now, when?”, explains why we need to “be kind to ourselves”, that “You define success” and more. Hosted by Siebe Van Der Zee.

About Dr Nora Gold

Dr. Nora Gold is a dynamic professional with a multi-faceted career. She is the prize-winning author of three books of fiction. The first, Marrow and Other Stories, won a Canadian Jewish Book Award and was praised by Alice Munro. Fields of Exile won the 2015 Canadian Jewish Literary Award and praise from both Cynthia Ozick and Irwin Cotler. The Dead Man (2016) won a Canada Council translation grant, resulting in this book’s publication in Hebrew, and an excerpt from it appeared also in Hungarian. Her fourth book, consisting of two novellas, will be published in 2024.

Dr Gold is the founder and editor of the prestigious literary journal Jewish Fiction .net (www.jewishfiction.net), which publishes first-rate Jewish-themed fiction from around the world, either written in English or translated into English from 18 languages, and which has readers in 140 countries. To date, Jewish Fiction .net has published over 500 works of fiction never before published in English, including fiction by such eminent authors as Elie Wiesel.

She was also a former social work professor and researcher who received 7 funded research grants, including from The Social Science and Humanities Research Council of Canada, focusing on women’s health, mental health, disability issues, and antisemitism).

Dr Gold is a community activist involved in various social issues, including feminist empowerment, who has served on numerous boards, task forces, and committees, and has been recognized by the Toronto community as an Outstanding Volunteer.

She has also founded or co-founder of three socially progressive organizations in Canada, all focused on social justice and promoting dialogue and equality between Jews and Arabs in Israel.

 

For more details about Dr. Gold, visit noragold.com.

 

Episode Notes

Lesson 1: If I am not for myself, who will be? 07:21 Lesson 2: If I am only for myself, what am I? 14:29 Lesson 3: If not now, when? 19:48 Lesson 4: You define success 27:31 Lesson 5: The perfect is the enemy of the good Lesson 6: Be kind to yourself 33:33 Lesson 7: Create space for creativity 38:16 Lesson 8: Take action against distraction 41:55 Lesson 9: Read, read, read, read, read…fiction 46:37 Lesson 10: You only go round once 54:39

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
​Hello and welcome to our program, 10 Lessons Learned, where we talk to
business people, journalists, authors,professors, ambassadors, leaders, and
luminaries from all over the world.
My name is Siebe Van DerZee, and I'm your host.
I'm originally from the Netherlands,happily residing in the Grand Canyon
state of Arizona in the United States.

(00:30):
I'm also known as theDutchman in the Desert
. Our guest today is Dr.
Nora Gold.
Dr Gold is someone with a trulymultifaceted career besides being a
prize-winning author of three books.
She is an editor.
A former social worker and a formertenured social work professor.
She's also a community activist.

(00:51):
Her most recent book, a novel namedThe Dead Man, received a translation
grant from the Canadian Council for theArts, and it was published in Hebrew.
Her fourth book consisting of twoNovelas will be published in 2024.
Dr.
Gold is also the founder andeditor of the online literary
journal, Jewish fiction.net.

(01:13):
In over 10 years, Jewish fiction.nethas published over 500 works of
fiction from around the worldwith readers in 140 countries.
You can learn more about Dr.
Nora Gold on our website.
10 lessons learned.com.
Hello, Nora.
Thank you for joining us.

(01:33):
Thank you so much for having me, Siebe.
Well, it's wonderful that you are partof, this session and I'm really curious
maybe to start out, jewish fiction.net.
Uh, can you tell us more about that?
Yes.
actually part of one of mylessons learned is about that.
I'm delighted to talk about this.
it's a journal that I began as a laborof love and it still is a labor of love.

(01:56):
12 years later, I started it becausea friend of mine, who's a wonderful
writer, was unable to get published,and I began to discover that because
of the change to digital technology,which to us nowadays sounds ridiculous.
Of course there's always beendigital life, but of course
before that, publishers were veryfrightened to take on a new author.

(02:18):
They were frightened about the wholesurvival of their industry, and a
lot of people had trouble gettingpublished who hadn't had trouble before.
So I began this journal as a wayof creating a space for wonderful
fiction that couldn't find a home.
And, at present, we'veput out our 32nd issue.

(02:40):
We've published over 500 works thathave been either written in English
or translated from 18 languages intoEnglish, and it's free and online.
So I think your listenerswould really enjoy it.
They just have to go to wwwjewish fiction.net and they
can read all these stories.

(03:01):
150 countries.
Yeah.
That's, not easy to get to that level.
How did it become so global?
Was it truly the contents?
was it your marketing?
Uh, because that's very successful.
I don't think we've put alot of effort into marketing.
I think it is unique.
It's the only journal in theworld that's devoted exclusively

(03:23):
to publishing Jewish fiction.
And it's not only for Jews toread, uh, in fact some of the
authors in it aren't Jewish.
We have stories written about theHolocaust by non-Jews and about
other aspects of Jewish life.
In the same way I love to read Spanishor Dutch or Portuguese fiction, you know,

(03:43):
anybody can read and love Jewish fiction.
So I think it's the qualityof the work, I have to say.
that because we're quite unique.
I've been approached by manywriters, including some very famous
ones, and in some cases theirwriting wasn't up to our standard.
So really there's nothing in therethat we don't consider first rate.

(04:05):
And I think that's really thesecret to why we're so widely read.
Maybe a step back, but whatinspired you to become an author?
Ah, that's a wonderful question.
Well, I actually was a writereven before I could physically
write when I was a little girl.
I don't know if you remember,but when I was growing up, we had

(04:26):
these things called story records.
You'd put them on, they weresmall, and I had a red one and
a blue one, and a yellow one.
They were children's storiesand we would play them.
Um, the way, you know,that was what we had then.
And when it was finished instead of.
going and playing, Iwould continue the story.

(04:46):
I would continue out loud and say,oh well, but the boy didn't get home.
The boy went into another forestand look what he discovered.
And I would sit there forhalf an hour or an hour just
babbling and making up the story.
And that was when I wasabout three years old.
This, I just always loved that otherworld, world of, of imagination really.

(05:09):
And so it's something I always did assoon as I could learn to physically write.
And then I learned on myfather's old typewriter.
I think I ruined his typewriterat work, one finger typist when
I was eight or nine years old.
And I, even when I was fiveyears old, people said, what are
you gonna be when you grow up?
That obnoxious question.
Children are always being asked, you know?
And right away I said, I'm a writer.

(05:31):
I'm always gonna be a writer.
So that was really basic for me.
I had to think for a moment.
Typewriter I can imagine that there arepeople listening that say, what is that
? I know, or What are records?
What are story records?
You know, my son, millennials, mostpeople have no idea what those were.
But yeah, they were these, theywere just about the size almost

(05:54):
of a donut or a little bit bigger.
They were 78s, very, very old.
And beautiful stories were told on them.
Maybe that also got me inspiredto do Jewish fiction.net cuz
I just love stories, you know?
Yeah.
well, being a writer, it, it comes fromwithin, you feel the need, the desire
to write something, but then you havethe readers that say, I like this.

(06:19):
And, and at some point theysay, I'm gonna buy your book.
And obviously you built, a huge, I don'twanna say empire, but a big company, big
organization, focused on publishing book.
Well, I have my own books, whichare three, so far and a fourth,
as you mentioned, forthcoming,uh, jewish fiction.net is, is

(06:40):
not a financial investment.
It's, it's all free.
But yes, I, I don't think of it as,as you said, it's not an empire.
But yes, it, it has global reach and Idon't like to to brag, but I have been
told it's been a complete game changer forJewish fiction because works that would
never have been published, none of themwere ever published before in English.

(07:03):
So these works would never havebeen in the world otherwise.
That's very
powerful.
Congratulations.
Let's move on to, um, the 10lessons that you have learned.
Look forward to our conversation.
obviously I have, had the chanceto quickly look at your 10 lessons.
Lesson number one, if I'mnot for myself, who will be?

(07:26):
If I am not for myself, who will be isactually along with my first two other
lessons are quotes from Hillel the Elder,a wise man from first Century b c E.
and one of my first work experienceswas when I volunteered for half
a year on a kibbutz, which is anidealistic, very socialist commune.

(07:47):
And, I learned this lesson from,unfortunately, a rather negative
experience, but luckily we can learn fromeverything, not just the good experiences.
So what happened was we were all assignedwork duties and we could ask for whatever
we wanted, but because I was a volunteerand not a member of the community, I was
usually just sent wherever was needed.
and the first day I got there, I wasassigned to the dining room, which

(08:10):
I didn't know, but apparently wasthe worst job on the people . I had
no way of knowing that, of course.
And it was, it was a crummy job.
Uh, it involved cleaningeverything, cleaning up three
meals a day after other people.
Uh, you started at five in the morningpreparing for breakfast, cleaning
all the condiment holders, the oil,the salt and pepper, the lemon juice,

(08:31):
everything that was dirty, you know,mopping the floor, wiping the tables,
setting the tables, preparing food,all this stuff, cutting vegetables.
And this was an agricultural community.
It was in, it was an agriculturaloperation, so people would come in
from the fields tracking in mud andeverything was always dirty and I
was always cleaning up after people.
I remembered very vividlyas we talk about it.

(08:52):
Anyway, I worked there for a weekand I didn't like the job at all.
Uh, everybody else was outside in the sun.
Picking melons and artichokes andlaughing and being part of a team.
And even if it was hot,you were with other people.
You were having fun joking around.
And here I was in this smelly diningroom, mopping floor , cleaning up
after people throwing out garbage.

(09:12):
It was so unpleasant and so depressing.
And I had come to the kibbutzwith idealism about being part
of this egalitarian community.
We talked all the time about how youtreat people and, and creating a new
world, a socially just world and all that.
And I even wanted to, I, I wasseriously considered joining this
community as a member after a while.

(09:34):
Uh, but the, the other reason, and maybeeven the more important reason, it was
such a miserable job with my supervisor.
And she was a really mean and bossyperson, and it was particularly strange
to have someone like her there becausereally we had community discussions
almost every night about buildinga fair community and equality among
everybody regardless of job and all that.

(09:56):
She was on this huge ego trip.
This was actually the kitchen andthe dining room were her kingdom, and
she took pleasure in bossing aroundeveryone . Anyway, the the turning point
in, in the, this, what this lesson wasabout was the day that a shipment of
milk came in and it was the milk forthe day, maybe 20 or 40 bags of milk.
We had bags, milk, cartons,and someone opened one.

(10:19):
It smelled it and said,I think these are bad.
I think the milk's gone bad.
And so my boss ordered me to openand taste all 20 bags of milk.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
So I opened one, uh, I tasted it,the milk was bad, it was sour, and I
almost threw up and I said, I don'tlike, we don't have to taste all 20.
They came from the same place.
They're bad.
And she said, no, you have to do it.

(10:40):
And I said, I'm not doing it.
It was completely unnecessary.
It was a disgusting thing to ask me.
And she went berserk, screaming at me.
You know, everyone in the dining roomwent and, and the kitchen heard screaming
for, I don't know, 10 minutes insults.
I would not repeat in, in public here.
Um, so I hated the job and I went to theperson in charge of work assignments and

(11:02):
I asked to be transferred and he said,no, you're needed in the dining room.
And I went back every weekand I couldn't complain to him
about her cuz they were friends.
It was a tight-knit community.
Anyway, to make a long story short,this went on for on and on and on.
After four months I said, I, I, I'mleaving, I'm leaving this community.
Which is really too bad cuz I reallybelieved in, you know, I went to

(11:23):
the guy who assigned to work dutiesand I said, don't put me on for
next week cuz I won't be here.
I'm leaving.
And I asked him how long peopleusually worked in the dining room
and he said, oh, nobody laststhere longer than a week or two.
match.
No wife.
Yeah, but, but you were willing tostay longer so we kept you there.
And that was such a wake up call for me.
You know, I was a good person.

(11:43):
I figured you contribute where you'reneeded and all that sort of thing.
And also I was brought up as a girl inmy generation and be nice, you know,
I think, I hope it's different now,but you know, I was taught to sort of
try and get along that sort of thing.
But at that moment with this guy, it waslike in those cartoons, you know, where
the guy's eyes just flash open, like.

(12:06):
Like that, you know, I was justlike, I cannot believe I put
up with this all that time.
And I was never the same.
After that, I really learned thatyou have to stand up for yourself.
You have to assert yourself.
You have to take care of yourself.
You have to demand to be treatedlike a human being, which you might
say, why didn't I know that before?
But I hadn't had to learn that before.

(12:26):
And I learned it cuz Ihad to learn it here.
And I also learned that in situationswhere I would have power over
people such as employees, I neverforgot that incident with the milk.
And I made sure, I nevertreated anyone like that either.
So, you know, people alwayssay don't cry overs spillt
milk, or in this case sour milk

(12:46):
And I didn't let it make mesour, but it was a turning.
And I also, but really learned about nottrying to please people and not to put up
with bad treatment because I wanted to beliked, you know, I was very young then.
I'm losing my twenties and, uh, Ididn't wanna be seen as aggressive
cuz that's not okay if you were afemale at that point in that place.

(13:07):
But after that, I didn't care about that.
And so I learned twovery valuable lessons.
One was about assertiveness obviously,and the other one was about fair
and reasonable expectations andbehaviors in the workplace and how
work should be meaningful and whatis a good boss versus a bad one.
You know, and I read a lot aboutleadership and things like that and, you

(13:28):
know, you talk about respect and empathyand trust and empowerment so these were
great lessons for me to learn from.
What it, it sounds like it.
And at the same time my mind is goingto situations where people, women do
not have the opportunity to behavethe way they would like to behave.

(13:48):
Right?
Absolutely.
There are societies, there arecountries where the role of people,
and it definitely could be women,they don't have the freedom.
And even if the mindset is, you know,we see that in certain countries
today, uh, that is a tough one.
But it is a, it's a very relevant,uh, lesson that you are sharing.
Absolutely.

(14:09):
And, and I don't wanna sound naiveabout it because there are times
and places where a woman assertingherself is extremely dangerous.
We, we know about those situations,so I was fortunate to be in the
world I live in where it was okayto be assertive in that context.
Well, it, it's kinda a nice.
Segue into lesson number two, right?

(14:29):
lesson number two, if I'm onlyfor myself, what am I, I love it.
Thank you.
Well, this guy Hillel was amazingactually such a deep thinker.
And actually these three questions havebeen put to a song, a beautiful song.
Yeah, it's, it might soundcontradictory cuz you know, the first
one is about being for yourself, butthen not being only for yourself.

(14:51):
And, you know, there are many peoplewe know, these people who say that to
be successful you have to be selfish.
You think only if you're self,it's a dog eat dog world.
But I don't agree.
And I think if you perceive the world thatway, you end up treating people like dogs.
And you turn into a dog yourself.
No offense to dogs.
Cause dogs, be careful.

(15:11):
People get easily offended.
but anyway, what happened inthis particular situation?
As I mentioned briefly, was that I knewwriters who were writing really great
fiction and could not find a publisherbecause of the, the switchover to
the digital revolution in publishing,which again, it's normal to us, but
at the time, you know, which was lessthan 20 years ago, it was an absolute

(15:37):
trauma for the publishing industry.
It caused an absolute seismic shock,an earthquake, and suddenly really good
writers were unable to get published.
And, one friend said to me, it's okay,you know, she had talked to a publisher,
he said, put your stuff in a drawer.
Come back in 10 years.
And she said, well,I'm gonna stop writing.
I can't, I'm not gonna wait 10 years.

(15:58):
So I, I wanna tell my friend, but Ialso was really worried about this
great literature just getting lost.
And there was no journal, eitherprint or online that focused
specifically on Jewish fiction.
All you could find wasEnglish language fiction.
And even then it was mostly just American.
I'm Canadian and I knew American fiction,but other English language, Jewish

(16:21):
fiction, like not just Canadian, British,South African, Australian was fabulous,
but also there was wonderful stuff fromall around the world being translated.
So none of that was available.
And I thought, you know what, this wouldbe amazing to be able just for myself to
access it and to share it with others.
I wanted to be reading and sharingJewish fiction written in South America,

(16:44):
Greece, Turkey, Russia, everywhere.
So, anyway, I thought there hasto be a journal of Jewish fiction
that's truly international.
And I had actually a, a secondary,or maybe not secondary, but a
second sort of agenda, which was.
I think like many communities, we live ina very, very polarized time historically.

(17:06):
And the Jewish community, like everyother community, was very polarized.
Is very polarized.
And I wanted there to be a civil andsafe space for an exchange of views.
I wanted there to be truediversity in these pages.
And indeed we've published work by leftwing, right wing, secular religious
people from all kinds of backgrounds, theEuropean and the North African, and every

(17:31):
sexual orientation and so forth and so on.
I was smart enough to know Icouldn't do this completely
alone, and I was really fortunate.
I began to cast around and Iended up bringing on board.
A terrific group of volunteersin three different cities, one in
Houston, one in Jerusalem, theseare the three cities and Toronto.
Numerous volunteers, awonderful advisory board.

(17:54):
And I think I've told youalready a little bit about it.
It's www Jewish fiction.net.
We also have published some veryfamous writers, I'd say some of
the most famous Jewish writers inthe world, including Ellie Razel,
Aaron Applefeld, and so forth.
And, in order to make it accessible,I was very concerned about income.
I had a funny experience.

(18:15):
at the time my son was in high schooland I was on a bus and I overheard
two high school kids talking on a bus,and they happened to be at my son's
school, and they were saying they, itwas just the beginning of cell phones.
they said, they were reading ontheir phone and I thought, well,
wouldn't it be great if they couldread these stories on their phone?

(18:35):
So I decided to make it free of chargeso that even kids, and it turns out that
there was someone overseas who basicallyhas nothing but a cell phone, doesn't
have a computer, and he reads our stories.
So that's it.
I think economic, uh, accesswas important as well.
And I guess the bottom line, the, the,the final thing I'll say about this,
in terms of the lesson and the essenceof the lessons isn't the journal

(18:59):
itself, but it was the fact that Idid it really to help other people.
But what I got from it, and I knowthis is a cliche, people say it,
I've gotten so much more from itthan what I actually have given.
I have a community ofpeople around the world.
I've met amazing writers andtranslators and I've learned so much.
And I think when you do for others,and you give something, you end up

(19:23):
doing for yourself too, because we'reall linked and what you do for the
world always circles back to you.
I totally agree.
I totally agree.
And I think, uh, manypeople have that experience.
When you do good things for otherpeople, it makes you feel good.
And that's not the purpose youare helping other people, but

(19:44):
it is definitely a benefit that,I think many people experience.
Well, let's move on lesson number three.
If not now, when?
it's, oh, you know, we like toprocrastinate and I think it's very
common to find yourself in a situation,a job or a relationship or anything else.

(20:05):
Which is hard to leave even though youknow it's not the right thing for you.
And it's hard often becausethings are very rarely, completely
clear cut in the real world.
You know, things aren't usually horriblybad or except for jobs like the one
on the kibbutz with the sour milk.
Usually you're in a situationthat is more nuanced.

(20:27):
You have benefits and upsides, evenif there are detracting factors.
And I'm thinking now of a turning pointfor me, when I was in a very significant
and successful job in my career, I was,as you mentioned, a tenured professor.
I was an academic and I'd investeda great deal of time, energy,
and effort into that career.

(20:48):
I had done a doctorate at a timewhen I had a young baby, and it was
such a conflict for me, and I mademany sacrifices to get that degree.
And I enjoyed many thingsabout academic life.
I was good at it.
My work was respected.
The people were pretty nice.
I wasn't having any problems.
It was a demanding job, mumuch more than people think.
People think it's an easyjob, it's a hard job.

(21:09):
. But I really enjoyed it and itwas intellectually stimulating.
I, I won awards, all these things.
There was one problem and that's thatI wasn't doing what I wanted to do.
I was very frustrated because as Imentioned, I'd always written fiction.
And even while I was working at thisfull-time job and I was traveling cuz
it was an hour away from where I lived.

(21:30):
So I was traveling in themorning for an hour, traveling
in the evening for an hour.
I was very frustrated because when Idid have a free moment, I was writing,
writing fiction, not academic writing.
I never had enough time because of my job.
So in a way, you know, you mentionedmy sort of my multifaceted Career in,

(21:50):
in a way it was a bit of a curse thatI was good at both my job and writing.
You know, I would think aboutAlice Monroe, who I'm honored
to say, praised my writing.
She once said something like, I'mparaphrasing, but it's lucky I'm good at
writing cuz I'm not good at anything else.
She won the Nobel Prize for literature?
She's pretty good at what she does.
She's actually a beautiful, uh, she'sone of my very favorite writers,

(22:13):
but as for me, I am able to do morethan one thing and reasonably well.
So it was a challenge and at this pointI had already published my first fiction
book, which had won a prize and I reallyfelt I had this great inner need to be
writing every day and not only everyday, not at one in the morning when my
son was asleep and after a day's work,but during my best time of day, which is

(22:38):
the morning, I wanted my mornings to bewriting instead of sitting on committees
and teaching and preparing classes.
So I had a decision to make.
It was very hard to make.
I mean, it meant giving up a goodsalary and a lot of social prestige.
You know, you tell someone, you're aprofessor, they go, oh, oh, you tell
them you're a writer, eh, you know, theythink you're sitting just scribbling

(22:58):
f you're a lazy person, you know?
And I, I wasn't unaware of what I wasgoing to lose, and it was a hard decision,
but in the end, I chose to leave.
Was it passion, your passionthat made that decision?
Yeah, I mean, I just felt that Ijust couldn't live without writing.
And I, the way I finally phrased it formyself and for other people, because,

(23:22):
you know, when I said I was leaving,no one ever leaves a tenured position.
People just almost didn't believe me.
It was like, no, what's the real story?
You know?
So I had to have a way of presenting it.
And the way I put it was, whichwas correct, was that other people
could teach my classes, but noone else could write my books.
and as I was making this decision, Idon't know if I was actually thinking of

(23:45):
Hillel's, if not now, when, but it waslike this question was living in my bones.
I mean, I was feeling this question everyday, and I knew I had the option to wait.
You know, I could picture waitinganother six months or year and
putting it off and seeing how it goes.
But I also knew that the truth wasthat it would just be wasted time.

(24:06):
Because if there's something youknow you really want or need to
do, then why are you waiting?
And you know, this is differentfrom the story about the sour
milk where, you know, the leavingwas to get away from something.
You were forced, youwere more or less forced.
Yes, I was.
And here I was leaving somethinggood to go to something better.

(24:27):
I was going to something.
So even though leaving the universitywas one of the hardest things I'd
say that I've ever done, uh, wasalso in another way the easiest
because there was something Iwanted so much on the other side.
And I guess the lesson here, whichI've taken into other arenas and
moments in my life is that even ifit's hard to leave something that

(24:51):
isn't necessarily that bad, if youbelieve you can find something better
for yourself, despite the uncertainty,something that's a better fit for you.
You should do it.
And you know, it reminded me of that song,the Gambler, you know, no, I won't sing,
but , you know, please no way, no wayto hold them, no when to fold them, you

(25:11):
know, with your cards, when do you holdyour cards, when do you fold your cards?
And despite all of what I gave upwhen leaving that job, which was
substantial, I've never regrettedthat decision for a moment.
No, I think it's, it's, uh,interesting that you say that.
I mean, in my work as a recruiter,I work with people in their
careers and, of course, you'renot suggesting anything different.

(25:35):
Uh, someone that has an interestin finance and they have their
education in finance and they becomean accountant and then they get
promoted to a senior accountant andmaybe vice president of finance, it is
very steady and in a way predictable.
And of course there'snothing wrong with that.
But then there are many people.

(25:56):
Definitely in your case that have thismultifaceted career where you decide
to go with your, can I say gut feeling?
Your, your, your inspiration say, Idon't want to do this, I want to do that.
And there's nothingwrong with that either.
So I don't think there is one model thatfits all people, but at the same time,

(26:19):
people that have the desire to make achange from their current situation.
What you are suggesting, of course,is inspiring them to go with the gut
feeling, even if you go to change and,and, you know, transition sometimes
can be difficult, challenging,but go with your gut feeling.
Yes.
And I think you're making such animportant point because the model I,

(26:43):
and again, I don't think millennialsthink this way, but I know when I
was, beginning my career, the ideawas for many of us that you basically
pick something and you specialize.
You have to be a specialist, you getexcellent at what you do, and you do
it till you retire or die, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
And that was considered notonly normal, but desirable.

(27:04):
Someone who switched careers waslooked at as what's wrong with them?
You know, did they fail or are they anunstable, unreliable sort of person?
So I think as you said, obviouslythere's nothing at all uh
questionable about someone who's,who's on the right path for them.
Yeah.
But for someone who feels they needsomething else, it's, it's a leap.

(27:26):
And I guess I, I'm encouraging people tomake that leap if they feel they need.
Well, you're the proof ofsuccess that people can have.
I see.
That it, it also, I thinkleads up to lesson number four.
You define success.
Exactly.
I mean, this, this is sucha big issue for people.

(27:46):
You know, we tend to evaluateourselves in terms of some
external definition of success.
You look around, it's as thoughyou think you're running a race.
I mean, life isn't a race.
People fall into this.
You compare yourself to othersin the field or your community.
You say, oh, this person's ahead of me.
This person's behind me.
And that's how you situate yourself.
I'm too far behind.

(28:07):
I'm no good.
Oh, I'm, I'm a good, I'm good because I'mnumber two or number one at something.
But first of all, I, I think that'sa terrible way to look at life.
And I came across areally cool infographic.
I post daily posts on LinkedIn.
If anybody's interest, they'realways inspired by infographics.
And one of my recent postsgot over a million views.

(28:28):
I couldn't believe it.
Anyway, the, the ones on success,uh, was this lovely, colorful one.
It's also on, in the featured collection.
And, it was very intelligent andthoughtful about how we consider success.
so the top half of the picture washow people often measure success.
And it was job title, salary, andunderneath it how success should

(28:48):
be measured, a right fit foryou, work-life, balance, purpose,
happiness, and authenticity.
And this totally resonatedwith me for obvious reasons.
I gave up title and and income.
so obviously I, I'm not accepting that,that definition of success, but the
story I would tell on this topic wasthat a few years ago, I don't know,

(29:11):
four or five years ago, I was feelingbad about my progress as a writer.
And I have to say thatpeople don't realize this.
Being in any one of the arts isbrutally hard compared to anything else.
Like as an academic, you followthe rules and you're successful..
As a writer or as a painter or amusician, it's a whole other ballgame.

(29:31):
Anyway, on this particular day, itseemed to me that a lot of people around
me were doing better than me, however,that's defined as a writer and, uh,
including people who were younger andstarted later and all of that stuff.
And I was feeling rather unsuccessful.
. Objectively speaking, I had done well.
I had won two book awards and grants andtravel, granted, translation, all of that.

(29:51):
But as we know, how you feel has verylittle to do with objective reality.
If you're interested in all those details,my website's, norra gold.com, you can,
you can read those things, but anyway.
I, I was feeling bad.
I was feeling really down and veryunsuccessful and for some reason I
started just thinking about the criteria.
I was applying.

(30:12):
The yardstick to what I was not doingwell on, and I realized very quickly that
I really didn't believe these criteria.
Now, I'm sure this happens in every lineof work, but I'm to apply it to mine.
There are lots of well-known writers whodon't write well, and there are fabulous
writers who you've never heard of.

(30:32):
I know this is true from what I read,and of course I would love to win the
Nobel Prize or some others huge prizeand have my books made into movies.
But actually, what I realized inthe middle of the night, that dark
and difficult night, was that what Ireally respect is fantastic writing
and not the politics around who winswhat prize, and who's on what list.

(30:55):
Writing something beautiful and unique andmeaningful that will reach people's hearts
and minds and maybe even change something.
That's what success is to me.
And I wasn't just tellingmyself this to feel better.
It, it's what I really believed.
if I had just been trying to comfortmyself, it wouldn't have had any effect.
And this just sort of hadthat immediate effect.

(31:17):
As soon as I realized that I had theright to challenge and I really question.
What was the yardstick that I was using?
I threw away the yardstick.
I said, that's nonsense.
I don't even believe that.
And so, I guess, the lesson out ofthis was that if you tell yourself the
truth about what you really value andyou measure yourself against that value

(31:41):
and not what everybody else is doingand what everybody else says and how
other people think about writers andsuccessful writers, you're much happier.
And in the end, you're also much morecreative and productive cuz you're not
wasting your time worrying about nonsense.
And maybe it's ironic and maybe itshould have been predictable, but

(32:03):
I've been more successful ever since
. Well, it really, sticks with me what you're saying.
And, to be honest, it also fitswith the purpose of our podcast.
10 lessons learned because our team, fromall over the world, we're on a mission.
We want to share wisdom from peoplelike yourself with a global audience.

(32:25):
And over time we have noticedthe feedback very, very positive.
What you're doing thisis fantastic actually.
I think it's such a gift.
All these things that.
We, I'll speak for myself, butthe, we've learned, I've learned
over my life and I wish I'd knownwhen I was 30 years old you know.
That's the whole purpose.

(32:45):
That's the whole purpose.
And we're doing it becausewe feel good about that.
That's the purpose of our, of our podcast.
We're talking today with Dr.
Nora Gold, a globally recognizedauthor, publisher, and editor,
sharing her 10 lessons learned.
I want to thank ouraffiliate partner Audible.
Audible is an amazing wayto experience our program.

(33:07):
10 Lessons Learned, but also books andother podcasts, allowing you to build a
library of knowledge all in one place.
You can start for free, a30 day trial by going to
audibletrial.com/10lessonslearned.
Again, uh, that isaudibletrial.com/10lessonslearned all

(33:30):
lowercase to get your free 30-day trial.
Well, back to the lessons,Nora, be kind to yourself.
Lesson number six, be kind to yourself.
Well, this may sound obvious, in a waythat we should treat ourselves with
kindness, but actually I think most peopledon't do this or even know how to do it.

(33:51):
And it's, it's interesting becausewe have a right and we even have
an obligation to care for ourselvesbecause if we don't do this, we
can't care well, for other people.
I mean, you know that instruction whenyou're on an airplane, they tell you
to put your mask on yourself beforethe other person, before the child.
Because if you're not able to breathe,you can't help a child breathe.

(34:11):
If in the case of an emergency, so,and more than this, we, we need to
be kind to ourselves cuz we havean intrinsic right to be happy.
But I've been thinking a lot aboutkindness for different reasons.
one was that I, on LinkedInactually, I came across somebody
whose boss took him aside.
After I posted about kindness,someone wrote me this, his boss

(34:33):
took him aside and, and said, I'mnot going to let you work on this
project cuz you're working too hard.
You're gonna burn out.
You have a young family.
I'm gonna lighten your load for full paycuz I want you long term and this is bad.
And I thought, wow, like first of all, weshould all have bosses like that and we
should all be bosses or leaders like that.

(34:53):
The word bosses I'm not so fond of, butum, when I really learned about being
kind to myself, uh, was a time that Ireally neglected myself and were sort of
all of these different lessons intersectbecause, it was again about success.
I was doing my PhD and workingand I had a young child.

(35:15):
and I was also doing a community work.
I had founded an organization that Iwas heading a non for, not-for-profit.
And basically I got hugely run down.
I got physically exhausted.
I was always doing more than I could do.
My physical health was notgreat, nothing, no major illness.
But I was not well and I was sick alot cuz I wasn't taking care of myself,

(35:39):
I wasn't resting, how could I rest?
I had a deadline for this and adeadline for that and not just for a
day or two when you meet a deadline.
Months of not, or month or two.
But for years I was sure, sure.
Five years.
My doctorate got very depleted.
I was really burnt out.
I was invited to give a talk tosome doctoral students, and I came
in and said, don't do what I did.

(36:00):
And they couldn't believe it.
What, what do you mean?
I said, I destroyed my health temporarily.
I mean, don't do that, you know.
But anyway, after that experience,I swore I would never work like
that or live like that again.
And I, that is so difficult.
That is so difficult for many people.
Right?
Because, I would say, especially upand coming professionals, but it, it
really doesn't, it's not age related.

(36:22):
Uh, we want to achieve certain things.
We have a lot on our plate.
We have to do this, we haveto take care of our family.
Of course, I would say that'sshould be number one, the family.
But you also have your ambitionand perhaps, and that happens
in my case, I like being busy.
Okay.
And yeah, there's a lack of sleep andthere's too much going on, all of that.

(36:44):
But is that always a negative?
Well, that's right.
I mean, part of it, part of it is adrive for success, but part of it,
as you say, is a wonderful thing.
You love what you do and it's meaningful.
Yeah.
Also, it's the way.
Our society or the world, you know, welive in many societies, but generally
speaking, taking care of yourself andself-kindness and self-compassion, it,

(37:08):
it's looked at as a bit, you know, wimpy.
Like you, you're not gonna say to yourboss, I won't be done on time cuz I
have to take more naps, you know, or
Um, and if you look at yourself interms of productivity as though you're
basically a machine, then kindnessis a luxury and rest is a luxury.
And I guess what I I'm saying isthat I had to learn the hard way.

(37:29):
Unfortunately, so much of whatwe learn in life is the hard way,
is that you really own your life.
That you do have time for rest and healthand walks and meeting for pleasure and
people you love and hobbies and joy.
I actually think millennials, Ihave a son who's a millennial and
they're so much smarter than mygeneration was they really get that

(37:50):
no one owns you, even your employer.
But ma many of us don't.
You know if, yeah.
if you think you have to beconstantly productive and connected
and responsive and on at the expenseof the rest of your life and your
health, um, then think again.
It, it can be a bit of a struggle.
But I think you're making a veryvalid point, and I'm already looking

(38:12):
ahead at lesson number seven becauseI think there could well be a link.
Lesson number seven, createspace for creativity.
Exactly.
I think a lot of theselessons are, are interwoven
Makes sense.
Yeah.
It's, it's very easy to get caught upin the day-to-day demands of our lives.
Yeah.
Our, all our responsibilities and youshunt to the side your creative work.

(38:37):
These other things you wanna do whileyou're dealing with everything else.
But the fact is that it's thecreative and innovative and truly
original work that only you can dowhatever your field of endeavor.
That's our most importantwork and contribution.
And it's what makes us feel alive.
And a lot of people I know have dreamsand ideas and things they wanna do.

(38:59):
Not necessarily an art form, but,but something, an idea for an
invention or a way to fix somethingat the, their place of work.
Something really innovative that theyhaven't been given time to work on.
And it always gets pushedto the back burner.
And I think many peoplethink of creativity in a
way that's surprising to me.
I don't think of it as,you have to be a painter.

(39:21):
It's doing something original.
It's doing original work.
And people will say things like,oh, I'll wait till I'm in the mood,
till inspiration strikes, you know?
But those of us who work creativelyknow, that inspiration has a way
of showing up when you're sittingat your desk preparing for it.
It doesn't just come, it comes after hoursand hours of slogging and being open to,

(39:46):
to the space that you've made for it.
And I once met a really, one of myfavorite writers, a marvelous, brilliant
writer, no longer living unfortunately,but a marvelous person whom I had the
honor to meet a couple of times in person.
Her name is Ida Fink, a Polish writer.
And when we discussed writing, sheasked me about my daily routine.

(40:10):
And I was complaining to herthat I only had my mornings.
I had left the university, but stilldoing all this other stuff from
noon on, you know, one o'clock on.
And I only had about four hours a day.
And she looked at me and she said,you have four whole hours a day.
And I totally put it in perspective.

(40:30):
. Um, you know, there's not to keepreferring to these infographics I
post, but there's this great artistnamed Grant Snyder and I posted
one, uh, called the Paradox of, ofCreativity or something like that.
The top half is a picture of a guysaying, you know, there's never enough
time for my creative work and the bottomhalf there will never be a better time.

(40:51):
And I think it's really true . So I thinkthat there's creative project you dream
of doing, but you, unlike me, aren'table to leave your day job, so to speak.
Even if you find an hour a day, justone hour to do what you really love
and you make that space and time, Ireally think it will transform your

(41:12):
life in ways you can't even imagine.
I think that's a good mission, one hour aday, and if you can reserve one hour a day
for something that you really enjoy doing,I'm already thinking, is that too much?
One hour?
Do I have one hour?
But you can force yourself, right?
You can really reserve that time tosay, okay, now I need to take a break

(41:36):
from everything else I'm working on.
I gotta do this.
And, and it will, it will help you relax,put things in perspective, uh, et cetera.
Yeah.
I mean, even a half an hour,start with half an hour.
Alright.
Half an hour's fine.
Everyone has a half an hour, you know.
They should.
Yeah.
I, I agree.
Lesson number eight, takeaction against Distraction.

(41:58):
I have a lot of thoughts about that,but please go ahead about your thoughts.
Well, I'd love to hear them sometime, butof course this is, I was gonna say part
B of making time from space for creativework, but it's part B of everything we're
saying, our most precious resource is,time, and it's important not to waste it.
It's a very limited commodity andwe have to approach it wisely to

(42:21):
be effective and successful inthe things that we value most.
Because if you're not careful,your whole life can just
disappear out of your control.
Particularly, in the digital world whereyou just can go on and forward out.
Oh yeah.
By, you know, I mean, obviously Ilove what the digital world can do.
If it weren't for the digital world,you and I wouldn't be speaking

(42:41):
Siebe and having, conversation.
But it has dangers and I think one hasto be very intentional and thoughtful
about how to deal with the constantdistractions that interrupt our work,
our concentration, our creativity,our productivity, and everything
we try and really want to do.
So what happened with me wasabout a year ago, I noticed that

(43:04):
my days were just disappearing.
I mean, I, I would havelists of things to do.
I had no idea where the time went.
At the end of each day.
I'd almost never gotten to the thingsthat I would've said were my priorities.
I was dealing with what wasurgent but not important.
All of these distinctions.
I just wasn't, I wasn't in control andI decided I have to do something and

(43:26):
I did what various people recommend.
Um, I, for one thing, committed myselfto only doing social media at certain
times of the day, prescribed times,and only for specific lengths of time.
Um, also for email, I mean, all daylong, I was, oh, there's another email.
I'll just deal with the email and allthe research shows actually that if you

(43:49):
switch tasks, the switch to another task,it takes a significant amount of time,
minutes, multiple minutes to come back.
It doesn't.
You can't move your head fromthe mind doesn't work that way.
I also stopped multitaskingfor that reason.
I turned off my phone when I wasworking on something important and
I prioritized my most valued andimportant activities and did these in

(44:13):
the morning when I have my best energy.
I didn't leave them forwhen my emails were done.
I think it's also how you raised, Iwas raised with the, with the adage,
you know, work first, then play.
Yeah.
And it's very complicated becausehow do you define work and play?
Work is doing my email and taking careof my social and other obligations and

(44:35):
play is writing cuz that gives me joy.
Well, no, I mean, I have to startthinking about writing as work that
gets prime of place and that answeringmy friends can happen in the evening.
And it's absolutely changed my life.
Again, it may sound again really obvious.
Well, I think it is noteasy to achieve that.

(44:57):
No.
When I'm involved with coaching,working with executives on performance
coaching, this is a major topic becausethese people, like you, have a lot on
their plate and there's a lot going on.
And, in a simplistic way, wewanna make sure the person stays
focused, can concentrate, but wehave to accept that we have both

(45:19):
internal an external distraction.
Um, if, if suddenly a window breaks,then even though we're recording,
then it's like, what's happening?
It could be, ah, I'm not feeling so well,and, and it's so internal, et cetera.
Absolutely.
In many ways, and I think that's whatyou describe, we have a brain muscle.

(45:40):
Uh, I always compare it easily whenwe go through traffic and the traffic
light, goes from green to yellow to red.
It's not to say, Hmm,what is happening there?
It's an automatic that we press the brakeand we stop, and when the light changes
back to green, we go, that's brain muscle.

(46:01):
We are trained to do that.
And what you're talking about is thatyou have a lot going on and maybe too
much going on and it doesn't feel right,and perhaps you start making mistakes.
So you want to train your brainand it, sometimes it takes some
time, to do things differently.
Very interesting topic, in itself.

(46:21):
And, that's why I was, really curiouswhat you were gonna, say about that.
It's important for all of us,no matter what we do in life.
It's not just for peoplein business, right?
It's important for us to control our mindand, to use our brain muscle to help us.
Lesson number nine.
Read, read, read, read, read.

(46:42):
Fiction
. Well, it's amazing how everything interacts here because your comments
about the brain, you'll hear it'sactually the brain that I'm worried about.
It's not only the usual comments, andit's not only about I write fiction, so
please read fiction and read my books.
It's not about that at all.
I was recently asked in an interview,are millennials reading enough?

(47:04):
Which was something apparently,and not just millennials
are children reading enough?
And there's a real concern amongscholars and a lot of fields about
what, what's happening with reading.
We know that reading has many benefitsapart from the pleasure it brings.
In fact, there's a whole body ofresearch showing that reading good

(47:26):
fiction, not reading a newspaperactually changes the person.
It increases a person's empathy.
In real life, the person becomesdifferent after reading good fiction.
It's a fascinating field of researchand in addition, fiction reduces stress,
improves mood, concentration, focus,writing skills, increases creativity,

(47:47):
generates problem solving, lower stress.
There's a whole list.
It improves analyticalskills, lowers blood pressure.
I mean it does amazing things.
I think of books as having superpowers,but the fascinating thing to come to
what your point with the brain, isthat there's research, I'm reading a
fabulous book called Leader, Come Homeby Maryanne Wolf, and she is someone

(48:13):
who's very concerned about everyone,not just younger peoples having
increased difficulty reading these days.
You know, on the one hand peoplesay, well, you know, nowadays
we're reading and writing more thanever before cuz we're constantly
texting cuz of our digital culture.
We do social media, blah, blah, blah.
But in the sense of deep reading, Sittingwith a book, whether a digital or a

(48:37):
paper book, sitting and reading forhours and slowly, deeply absorbing its
content and getting into another world,really, this is a whole other ballgame.
And Wolf who has spent her life as aresearcher in the field of reading, and
also she runs a clinic for children withreading disabilities, she is sounding the

(48:59):
alarm over how digital life has changedhow and what we need and the implications
for us, not just in as individuals,but as a whole society, and as a world.
The change to digital has changed ourbrains physically, neurologically.
It's not just habits.
Uh, your point about the brain is verywell taken, and when we read digitally, we

(49:23):
read to skim basically, is what she said.
The, the skill is how to extractthe information as quickly as
possible, but that is totallydifferent from deep reading.
And when you read every word and you enterprofoundly into a book, intellectually
and emotionally into the ideas andthe experiences and the lives and

(49:46):
minds of the characters in the book.
That activates actually every singleaspect of the physical brain, and
there's nothing else that does that.
It brings together everyaspect of the brain.
So she's really worried about, and she'snot alone, she's speaking for an, a
whole community of scientists who arereally worried about not using this,

(50:09):
this kind, doing this kind of readingand activating our brain this way because
she says, I didn't realize this untilI read this book, that if you look at
human history, say as a clock, you know,a 12 hour clock, um, not until one second
before you hit the 12, did humans read.
It's not really normal to read.

(50:31):
It's not natural to read.
Our brain changed to, todo this very weird thing.
It's a very strange thing to do actually,uh, from an evolutionary perspective.
So she's worried that as a species,If we don't continue to do this one
particular thing, we actually willlose the capacity for deep reading.

(50:51):
And she ties this in not only becausereading is very important for many,
many reasons, but also because she isconvinced and she's again not alone on
this, that if people are not comfortablewith reading and they read less, then
actually they think less because youaren't as well informed about the world.

(51:14):
And when people are just extractingwhat they already believe from the
internet, it makes everybody much morevulnerable to dictatorships and autocrats.
It's basically a threat to democracy,to individual thought if people
aren't able to really read properly.
It's such an interesting point.

(51:36):
Recently, I had a conversationwith a friend of mine.
We were talking about our years inhigh school, so a few years ago,
at least, . And in my high schoolexperience in the Netherlands, we
learned Latin and ancient Greek.
Not to speak the language for obviousreasons, but to be able to understand, and

(51:59):
we were talking about it recently that.
you use the term deep reading, right?
It's not just glancing over andscanning and quick, quick, quick,
because that's what we do, especially,in the virtual environment.
But to really analyze the words that wereused and how these words were connected.
And it's, it's almost almostacademic, the way I say it,

(52:22):
but the story was fascinating.
So it was, it was, they wereinteresting stories, but it was not
until much later that I look backand said the format of reading.
And again, this was definitely deepreading because it was not just take a
quick look and tell me what you think.

(52:43):
You had to figure it out.
That's right.
And in this case, inLatin and ancient Greek.
So I appreciate what you're saying.
And that hopefully is a very valuablelesson for, I would say the up
and coming generation, to spendtime reading and to really do, I
like the term, the deep reading.

(53:04):
I think that makes sense.
I really agree with you.
I, my, in high school, we learned Latin.
They had just gotten rid of Greekand I was very disappointed.
But yeah, I see connections between wordsand, yeah, I would just like to say a
couple of words about why it's fiction,that that is so important and powerful.
And I don't say this because I'm awriter of fiction, but I really think

(53:26):
it has a kind of magic power becausewhen you read fiction, what happens
and it's is different from end readinganything else is that your defenses drop.
And once you decide to keep readingpast the first few pages of a book, I
mean, even if the main character is,is a serial killer, an ax murderer,
you know, once you keep reading andyou enter this person's world, you see

(53:50):
the world through someone else's eyes.
And it's basically an exercise in empathyand in experiencing the reality and
complexity and humanity of the other.
Which is what happens actually indialogue groups in multifaith and
cross-cultural groups I've been part of.
Yeah, so writing reallyteaches us about otherness and

(54:11):
differentness, and it teaches ushow to be empathic and tolerant.
And I think that is, just so powerfulin terms of what the world, what
the world needs now in other songs.
But, but , you know, the world,the world needs, needs more
tolerance and more understandingof the other and more empathy

(54:34):
here.
Here,
more than ever before.
Yeah, absolutely.
Nora, we already gettingto lesson number 10.
it's fascinating lesson number 10.
You only go around once, and I don'tknow if that has anything to do with your
multifaceted career that you don't want tomiss these different aspects of your life
and your career, but, uh, please explain.

(54:57):
I think it's that too, in, in a way,I think all 10 lessons have been
whispering the same kind of point,which is, you know, I think when
you're younger, I know when you'reyounger, it's very hard to really
understand that your life is finite.
You know, you, you know it intellectually,of course, but it's a very rare
young person who can grasp thatthey only have x number of years.

(55:20):
And that's of course, assumingyou're in good health.
I mean, there's some young peoplewho aren't, but you feel you have a
lifetime, a whole lifetime ahead of you.
And when I was trying to decidewhether or not to leave my job at
the university, I was very paralyzed.
I, I found it very hardto make this decision.
But by that time really already,you know, a good day was a day

(55:41):
when the writing went well.
A bad day was a day when the writingwent badly, and it's still that way.
Whatever else is going on.
And I wasn't sure who to ask.
No one really understood aboutwriting what it meant to me.
But luckily at the Toronto Public Library,I live in Toronto, they had a writer in
residence for that year, and it turned outit was someone named Audrey Thomas, a fine

(56:03):
writer, still living a Canadian writer.
And the deal was that anyone wasallowed to show her their work and
then leave their work for her to read.
And then you make an appointment fortwo weeks later and you talk to her.
So I did that.
I dropped off some stories at the library,and then I went to meet her, of course,
very nervously and great trepidation.

(56:25):
What if she says I'm no good and allthat, but to my relief and delight,
she said, you're a real writer.
You have what it takes.
And then like Ida Fink, the author Imentioned before, she, Audrey Thomas,
asked me about my writing routine.
And I said, well, I'm aprofessor at university.
I'm an hours drive away.
I have very little time,but I, I write when I can.

(56:47):
And she just looked at me, she stared atme and she said, you only go round once.
And I didn't really understand.
I wasn't sure, actually.
I didn't think I'd heard correctly.
And I asked her to repeat it, and she did.
And then of course Iunderstood what she meant.
Yeah.
And she wasn't telling mewhat to do with my life.
She was telling me I only hadone to play with or work with,

(57:09):
or do with what I wanted.
And I think it was at that moment afterI left her that I really understood
that I was gonna have to turn my wholelife upside down and reorient everything
and enter a complete talk aboutLatin, you know, uh, Terra incognita,
you know, completely unknown world.

(57:29):
Because that's what I had to do.
And I, I wanna say, I know life isn'tsimple and not everybody had the fortunate
circumstance where they can switch jobs.
I mean, A single mother with10 kids to support, I would've,
I'd still be at my job.
Yeah.
But insofar as you can, you know, toreally remember that you have one life.

(57:50):
And actually there's some wonderfulgames, uh, which you can access online,
designed by Joseph Weiss Gold themillennial one is called now slash
then, and the other is called after.
And they're both fun.
They're not morbid.
It's at uh, after www.after.community, thecompany is called After and uh, they shine

(58:12):
a light about living with the end in mind.
Not in a sad way, but just being awareand intentional about your life and your
time and working backwards from whatyou wanna leave in the world when you're
gone and what you wanna have achievedand where are you in your life now, and
how you're gonna align all your valuesand passions and goals and make your

(58:33):
life what you really want it to be.
So basically, this is all about tryingto live your life as you feel you
are meant to and do what's real andmeaningful and what gives you joy so
that you don't look back when you hit acertain age and go, I'm full of regrets.
Why didn't I do what Ireally should have done?

(58:55):
Yeah that's a good point.
At the same time, Nora, I'm thinking of,An additional question I would like to
ask you, because you are sharing lessonsthat you have learned and I think, very
helpful for many people to listen to.
Are there any lessons thatyou have perhaps unlearned in
your life or in your career?

(59:17):
Oh, that's an excellent question,but of course such an important
part of learning is unlearning.
Yes.
Right.
I guess I'd say the most important thing,that needed unlearning for me was that
mistakes are bad, mistakes are things youshould avoid, and that's really wrong,

(59:38):
It's a real mistake to think that waybecause if you believe that mistakes
are something bad that you shouldavoid, and you spend your time and
energy avoiding making a mistake, thenultimately you never take any risks.
Exactly.
And if you're not taking risks, and Idon't mean flying off a rollercoaster,
but taking calculated risks, you know,risks that you've, you're taking with

(01:00:00):
some thoughtfulness, then you're notreally living because, because life
is intrinsically uncertain there,there's nothing that's for sure.
You can't ensure anything.
You can't control the future.
You can't control theoutcome of almost anything.
And so the only way to live isto go ahead, make your mistakes.
But I had a wonderful teacher once, asocial teacher, when we were learning

(01:00:24):
how to do interviews and there areall these things you're supposed to do
and not do when you interview clients.
And we were all afraid of making mistakes.
And he said, make mistakes just over time,he'll make better and better mistakes.
And that was actually true.
We made different kind of mistakes.
And then he also saidhe was a great teacher.
He said, there's no problemwith falling down as long as

(01:00:46):
you know how to get up again.
Yeah.
And so I think that that approachtowards mistakes that they'll happen.
You're human, you'll get up again,you'll make more mistakes, but you're
living your life in an open manner.
I, I couldn't agree more with that.
again, makes a lot of sense.
We all make mistakes and you haveto find a way to deal with that.

(01:01:08):
And in some cases, yeah, you have togo back maybe to someone and say, look,
I'm sorry, you know, I, I messed up.
this wasn't correct.
and on the other hand, It could be alesson to yourself to say, I gotta make
sure the next time I do it differently.
And it's, I would say, impossible to gothrough life without making mistakes.
I think that's what's wonderful aboutyour podcast, if they may just interject

(01:01:30):
because it's really about lessonsand, and what are lessons in life.
They're lessons you learnedthrough making mistakes.
I mean, I started off thinking my, whenI'm thinking 10 lessons, well what are
lessons I made from not making a mistake?
And I couldn't think of any.
They're all from doing.
Experimenting and trying and thingsnot being quite right or what you
expect, but that's where you learn.

(01:01:52):
Well, absolutely and, typically, I pointat myself when I say we all make mistakes.
But we have to acceptthat we make mistakes.
Very, very interesting.
And I, I really appreciate, Nora,that you are joining us today.
And thank you so much for sharingyour wisdoms with our global audience.

(01:02:12):
I will make a few closing remarks.
You have been listening to theInternational Program, 10 Lessons Learned.
This episode is produced by RobertHossary, and as always, we are supported
by the Professional Development Forum.
Our guest today, Dr.
Nora Gold.
Globally recognized author, publisher, andeditor, sharing her 10 lessons learned.

(01:02:33):
And to our audience, don't forgetto leave a review or a comment.
You can also email us [e-mail].
That is And I hope you willsubscribe and, leave us a comment
and also, make sure that youdon't miss any future episodes.

(01:02:54):
And remember, this is a podcastthat makes the world wiser
and wiser, lesson by lesson.
Thank you and stay safe.