December 13, 2022 • 33 mins
Karen Loon shares her lessons about how "Our future is shaped by our past", that "Imposter syndrome is normal", why you should not "be scared to look in the mirror" and more. Hosted by Jeffery Wang
About Karen LoonKaren Loon is passionate about ensuring that both women and those from culturally diverse backgrounds are given the right opportunities to thrive within their organisations.
Combining her business and governance experience as Non-Executive Director (NED); her 29 years working with the world’s leading financial institutions as a senior relationship and assurance partner at PwC; her knowledge gained from leading change initiatives in diversity; and her academic research in system psychodynamics, Karen delivers research-based and yet practical advice to the organisations she works with.
Karen is a recognised thought leader and speaker on workplace diversity and inclusion. She was formerly PwC’s Singapore and Asia-Pacific Diversity Leader and a member of its Global Diversity Leadership Team and Global Financial Services Diversity Steering Committee. Under her leadership, PwC won the British Chamber of Commerce Singapore’s 2017 Embracing Diversity and Inclusion Award. She was also awarded a certificate at the 2017 Singapore Committee for UN Women HeForShe Awards to recognise her work to promote gender equality in Singapore.
Karen regularly shares her views on enhancing diversity with leading organisations and professional and industry bodies in Australia and Singapore. She is also a commentator on governance and culture matters.
Karen is a NED on several for-profit, professional, and educational organisation boards. She has an Executive Master in Change from INSEAD, a Master of Business Administration from Macquarie Graduate School of Management, and a Bachelor of Economics from the University of Sydney. In addition, Karen has several post-graduate qualifications in accounting, finance, corporate governance, and culture.
Karen’s current book Fostering Culturally Diverse Leadership in Organisations-Lessons from Those Who Smashed the Bamboo Ceiling, examines how successful culturally diverse leaders at work resolve the contradictions and tensions of their identities within organisations.
Episode Notes
Lesson 1: Life is full of patterns that we continuously repeat 03:05 Lesson 2: Your family will always be your biggest cheers squad 06:32 Lesson 3: Our future is shaped by our past 10:47 Lesson 4: If you’re not networking, you’re not working 13:55 Lesson 5: Imposter syndrome is normal 17:52 Lesson 6: Don’t be scared to look in the mirror 20:59 Lesson 7: Embrace negative capability 23:49 Lesson 8: Invest in ‘me’ time 25:52 Lesson 9: Stay hungry, stay foolish 26:55 Lesson 10: The best way to bond is over food 29:17
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen Loon (00:00):
I guess when I'm saying networking we're saying broad networks
and I think there's people need tounderstand there's different types of
networks whether it's sponsors or mentorsor others So I guess what I'm saying here
is that you need a lot of different peopleto help you during your career because
Actually we're talking about leadershipLeadership is all about leading others
and having followers But to learn howto be a leader you probably need others
(00:22):
to help you so it's actually recognizingthat you just can't be doing the job.
If you want to be actually ableto succeed and go into leadership
you need the help of others
Jeffery Wang (00:32):
Hello and welcome to the podcast "10 Lessons Learned", where we
dispense wisdom, not just information, notjust facts, not just mere platitudes to an
international audience of rising leaders.
In other words, in this podcast you'llhear valuable insights that you cannot
learn from a textbook, because ittook us years to learn this stuff.
My name is Jeffery Wang,the founder of Professional
(00:53):
Development Forum and your host.
This podcast is sponsored by theProfessional Development Forum which helps
diverse young professionals of any agefind fulfillment in the modern workplace.
Today we're joined by Karen Loon.
Karen Loon is a non-executive director,a former partner at PWC Singapore.
She has worked with theworld's leading banks
(01:14):
and led D.I.E diversity initiativesShe has qualifications in system
psychodynamics, that's a big wordand uh governance from INSEAD
and research interest in identitywork and organizational change
which we'll get to in a minute.
She's also the author ofa recently release book
"Fostering Culturally DiverseLeadership in Organizations"
(01:36):
So I know also from reading about you inthe news that you are fourth generation
Asian Australian growing up uh in the
country town of New SouthWales called Tamworth.
There there's a theory that the reason whyculturally diverse people aren't getting
into leadership is because you know theyhaven't assimilated to the culture yet.
(01:57):
But looking at you, you'reprobably as Australian as one
could possibly be Asian background.
So if even you can see that thereis an issue um then potentially
that the issue is much much bigger.
Karen Loon (02:13):
Yeah No no definitely Um thanks for uh the the kind intro but no
it's it's it's interesting because uh
as I actually looked at my own storycuz I think part of the whole research
I did was around my own story andunderstanding I've I've realized how
much has been shaped by the experiencesof my grandparents, and and their
experiences were quite different to oursbut you know some of those um challenges
(02:35):
that they faced actually becomingAustralians and feeling like they're
Australians, I think are still thingsthat uh I experience in a way today.
So uh it's been a fascinating journey
Jeffery Wang (02:44):
Absolutely.
And you did start your journeyin Australia in your professional
journey Um do you think youwould've gone as far as you did if
you did not leave for Singapore?
Karen Loon (02:55):
Yeah unfortunately not Um I mean it was challenging at the time
for women, I think And I recall I hadn'tseen you know a lot of female leaders,
but uh definitely it was probably onlyFive years before I made it to partner
So maybe in the late nineties when youactually really started to see Asian
Australians make it into say partnershipuh levels in in most of the the firms.
(03:16):
So uh it's unfortunate and you know to methat's something that I I wanna try and
see we can change for the next generation
Jeffery Wang (03:23):
If you want to find out more about her research you
can certainly check it out in herlatest book Uh "Fostering Culturally
Diverse Leadership in Organisations".
So without much a do let's jump into yourlessons then Um lesson number one "life
is full of patterns that we continuouslyrepeat", what do you mean by that?
Karen Loon (03:42):
I used to have um a client a big client I worked with in Singapore
for a couple of years And uh I'd goalong I was a an audit partner and He
was quite serious also whenever yougot something um or or you came up
with a point of view that he didn'tagree with he'd actually sort of
lash out at you a bit aggressively.
Um no matter whether you were aninternal uh staff member or external.
(04:05):
Um and so I remember I used to alwayswant to over- prepare for the meetings
we were going to because I just didn'twant to necessarily be put on the spot.
and I hated to be put on the spot.
Cuz I realized Um later on it was a bitlike being with my dad Um I actually
have a father who's quite strong whenmy father would make a comment I never
wanted to say anything Cause he alwayswanted to be right no matter whether you
(04:27):
argued Um so I'd over prepare and overprepare and at the end of it because I
was the most senior person I had to havethe answer Um so it was an interesting
thing I actually realized that some ofthe patterns that we have at work are
really things that we've as children andwe tend to repeat them So um in my studies
I learned about this thing called C C RT It's actually called Core Conflictual
(04:50):
Relationship Theory which is basic thatoften we repeat these sort of uh patterns
that we learn as kids And in my case whenI see someone that's a bit scary to me
who's quite aggressive I behave like Iwould with my father which is I would tend
not to react, I tend to not say anything
which is probably not the best thingto to do at work So in summary I think
(05:11):
you know the lesson to me was to learnthat life is full of these patterns Um
and so it was good to be aware of them
Jeffery Wang (05:17):
okay So be being aware is important Um I mean once that you've
observed such a pattern occurring Iimagine there there'd be a time when you
had this aha moment when you realizedthat you know the reason why you're
unable to deal with people of such sort ofaggressive nature or sort of power figure
uh is because of your of your dad Butthen how did you learn to overcome that
(05:39):
what did you have to do to you know onceyou observed that pattern to break it?
Karen Loon (05:44):
I think being aware is obviously a start but I think sometimes
to um not default to that behavior justreally just take a breath obviously
make sure you prepare but actually ifyou have a point in view um and you're
able to articulate it then most peoplewill respect you And so I think part of
it is to actually give things a go andremember that actually sometimes when
(06:04):
they're sort of uh reacting It may notnecessarily be be you it may be them
reacting as well And so um just reallyyou know thinking about this reflecting
on it um and and realizing this isokay if I have a point of view okay.
Jeffery Wang (06:21):
Is it a case of just getting older and wiser and tougher and you know
getting used to Okay With conflict oris is there an aha moment that that made
you realize Hey I can deal with this now
Karen Loon (06:34):
I think you get over these things I think that's all part of learning
to be a leader So um but I think I diddefinitely have a bit of an aha moment
which was probably after all of this umwhich is why I can actually articulate
it now I don't think I necessarilyunderstood it at the time uh but it's
definitely been something I've I'velearned about in in more recent years
Jeffery Wang (06:52):
Yeah And certainly you wish you knew
Karen Loon (06:54):
I wish I
Jeffery Wang (06:55):
aware
Karen Loon (06:55):
yes
Jeffery Wang (06:56):
earlier on Awesome
Well lesson number two and uh verytypically Asian one Uh you said that
your family will always be your biggestcheer squad Tell us about your family
Karen Loon (07:09):
Yeah so um I'm an eldest child Um very interesting So back to my
dad again So my dad was always the onethat wanted me to be really resilient
so he said I wanted to toughen you up Umbecause I think he felt that you know he
had to be tough in the world to succeedAnd so I've always been pretty independent
Went to uni at 17 lived away from homewent overseas and that sort of thing Um
(07:33):
and so yeah being independent's just justthe way I've I've been brought up But um
you know I think I've realized that umone of the reasons I do it is actually
because I wanted to prove to my familythat I was good enough as well which
is something that uh you know sometimesyou feel quite insecure about certain
things And uh I do these things becauseactually I wanted the I guess praise by
(07:56):
my parents even though they often tellme Oh you shouldn't do these things Like
uh my dad will always says Look why areyou doing this cultural diversity things
No one will respect you Um but on theother hand he comes back to me and says
Well you know he cheers He's and tellshis friends that this is really good
So I actually think we have to rememberthat um your family's always there They
always are the ones who'll assess you andthey'll often be very very negative to
(08:18):
your face Um but they're also the onesthat'll be there for you no matter what
happens in your life And so I think youknow we shouldn't forget our families
They'll always be there to cheer us on
Jeffery Wang (08:28):
Yeah You To me it sounds like your family is just a very you know
your dad's a very typical Asian dad Youknow high expectation Nothing's ever good
enough You know they want you to not talkto any boys But then you know as soon as
you graduate from university they wantyou to be married the day after Mm-hmm
That's the kind of life that you you yousee you know a lot of Asian uh people
(08:51):
have to contend with And it sounds likewhat you're saying is that uh despite
you know many protestations on you knowpotentially on criticisms that they have
of you Ultimately they want the bestof you and that you should um continue
with your endeavors You know becauseyou you do make your dad proud Yeah
Karen Loon (09:09):
yeah No no it's it's very funny when you always hear the
friends coming back with the commentsso uh Yeah You realize actually you're
not so bad Um so it it's been aninteresting learning for me Mm-hmm
Jeffery Wang (09:19):
I I wonder how much of it is just a cultural thing where uh Asian
parents uh just find it difficult to bedirect with their compliments or or even
expressions of love You know How oftendo you hear I love you from your parents
Um and and how much of that is overcomingthat inability to openly communicate
Uh and I suppose you know as People whouh travel the world a bit You know you
(09:42):
kind of be exposed to different cultureswhere you can choose to you know adopt
a different way of expressing yourself
Karen Loon (09:51):
Yeah No and it's it's interesting being you know fourth
generation Asian Australian we're notthe most talkative about you know how we
feel Um so that going back to the some ofthe other comments earlier about family
shaping us I think it is something thatwe actually you know um bring through from
from different generations from our family
Jeffery Wang (10:09):
Oh I find that absolutely intriguing actually that comment
uh because I'd imagine being fourthgeneration Asian Australian uh you would
have so many so much interactions withAustralians that you know the cultural
element would've rubbed off on yourfamily And yet four generations on so
much of what was uh a typical Asianculture was still maintained within
(10:34):
your family How how do you explain that
Karen Loon (10:37):
I don't know It's it's a tough one I think it's just uh you know
there are certain I I actually thinkit's possibly because uh my family
lived through the White Australiapolicy and so they family was always
the there to support them And so thosefamily values were passed on because
they thought that was important andthey sort of stuck together Um so I
(10:57):
find it an interesting concept I havesome very Australian aspects as well
uh about food which we'll talk aboutlater And and you know uh my family
don't have three generation familiesbut you know certain values definitely
I think are are from from Asia Yeah
Jeffery Wang (11:13):
Well speaking of generations you're lesson number three
says Our future is shaped by our pastSounds like a bit of a story there
Karen Loon (11:23):
So um it's an interesting uh topic after these days getting asked a lot
of questions like you know what did you doWere you know when you wanted to when you
left uni and and that sort of thing Andand honestly I had no idea what I wanted
to do Um so I just drifted into rolesI worked with teams I had some really
great opportunities and but if there werethings I didn't like Decided no maybe I'll
(11:45):
just go off and and do something else.
So I've actually realized when I wentback to study um that actually a lot
of what we do is shaped by our earlierroles in systems So what I do at work
was often shaped by the roles and thethings I Like doing in my family and
then what I did at school And then ifI like it then I try and find those
(12:05):
things Uh and the other thing is that weoften when we go to work look for things
that help us feel better because of theanxieties in our our childhoods So we
often look for certain things I think I Ireflected on some of those things earlier.
So we want to join companies because ofour self-esteem So I've actually realized
that Everything we do and things we lookfor is shaped by what we did in the past
(12:28):
which I think is a very very powerfulthing to understand particularly when
we're trying to understand what thingslike we'd like to do in future jobs
Jeffery Wang (12:36):
Yeah This sounds like a bit of a psychological conversation isn't it
So you know people have a chip on theirshoulders because of you know potentially
things that they carry from theirchildhoods and that you mentioned before
that you're always trying to do somethingthat you you believe will um impress
your parents so knowing that insightuh what can you do with that information
(12:59):
What what do you do knowing that youknow your so much of you is shaped
by what happened to you in the past
Karen Loon (13:05):
Yeah I think it's useful to Reflect on because um like in my
case um I actually realized that I likea lot of limelight in certain cases.
And this there was a whole concept ofstars actually Um you know I I had a I
was in a newspaper article um when I wasseven and it said Karen is a star And I
(13:26):
did some exercises later and I realizedthat I actually wanted appreciation and
being um like a star Um but one of thethings I've realized is from some of
those exercises The lens I also use umtends to focus on some of these things
when I I look at examples of of observingthings and that sort of thing So to me
(13:46):
what I think I learned from a lot of thisis that um you are shaped by your roles
but also the way you look at things alsois shaped by that as well Um which is
a slightly different different angle.
And being aware of that some of theseyou know perspectives can actually
help you be a lot more wise whenyou're looking at situations and
trying to understand what's going
Jeffery Wang (14:07):
Hmm indeed Now you are the second uh Asian Australian woman that
I've um interviewed And I've noticedit's a bit of a theme that you are
very introspective in terms of you knowunderstanding your psychology So uh
potentially we're onto something here.
Uh but no lesson number four It takesa little bit of a different bend and
and it sounds like great career adviceUh and you said in lesson number four
(14:31):
if you're not networking you're notworking What do you mean by that?
Karen Loon (14:35):
Yeah so uh Like a lot of kids who grow up and and study hard you
know had the pressure of the parents UmI did also uh experience some setbacks
Uh you know when I was a little bitmore junior at pwc I you know did really
well So I got early promotions but theneventually I hit a ceiling Um I was told
that my soft skills weren't so good.
(14:57):
Then I was also having anotherincident when I was uh going for
partnership in Singapore and I hadso much work uh was working working
working and I was being put up forpartnership and I didn't get through.
And so the feedback I got wasactually the people didn't know you.
They didn't know you as a person Theyknew your work but didn't know you as a
person Um and so one of the things I'verealized and I still have to remember
(15:20):
this myself is that often you know wedo perform in ways that um are shaped by
what we thought was working in the pastwhich we've talked about but actually as
we get older we actually need to buildand continue to build our networks cuz
that's so important at work Uh and soI've learned it's not the technical things
that you know it's actually who you knowas well Um and so that's so important
(15:43):
whether it's your career sponsors whetherit's your mentors and that sort of thing
Jeffery Wang (15:47):
Well there are two aspects of that I like to dig into a little bit
So number one is the idea that whenyou're working you should be working you
know networking sounds like you're makingfriends you're having fun you know when
you're having fun you can't possibly beworking Especially that's kind I feel
like that's a bit of a a mentality Alot of uh Asian Australians do have what
do you say to that sort of um thinking
Karen Loon (16:09):
Mm-hmm I guess when I'm saying networking we're saying broad
networks and I think there's people needto understand there's different types of
networks whether it's sponsors or mentorsor others So I guess what I'm saying here
is that you need a lot of different peopleto help you during your career because
Actually we're talking about leadershipLeadership is all about leading others
(16:29):
and having followers But to learn how tobe a leader you probably need others to
help you Uh so it's actually recognizingthat you just can't be doing the job.
If you want to be actually ableto succeed and go into leadership
you need the help of others
Jeffery Wang (16:43):
Absolutely And it's the second part of that And and you said a
keyword there that you lack the softskills And then the second part you said
that people didn't know who you wereas a person And I know there's is very
typical of a lot of uh especially peopleof Asian backgrounds that we tend to be
very reserved We don't let Personalityout And a lot of that is just because
(17:04):
that's the way we're taught You knowuh we we have this assumption that we
it's not professional for people toyou know to act out their personalities
So what have you learned in your inthe process of you know making partner
about how to let other people know whoyou are as a person and and what is the
ultimate point of knowing you as a person
Karen Loon (17:24):
So it's interesting that that feedback was actually when I was
in Singapore So I think it's it's alsoa combination of who you are as well so
that the people in Singapore didn't knowme But um you know people want to you know
they don't just wanna be transactional umand do work with you They actually want
to know whether they can trust you Anda lot so much of work is actually around
trust Can I trust that this person'sgonna do the right thing if I actually
(17:46):
engage them as a client or they comea colleague And so Only when you you
really let that guard down and you talkabout you know whatever it's your food
or whatever um and they get to know as aperson then you they can really go Okay
yeah I think I can get this person Um soI think it's uh moving beyond transactions
Jeffery Wang (18:03):
indeed And if a person is guarded around you to you know let let
you into their lives you know there theremay be something he's holding back or
she's holding back and that's not a notnecessarily a good way to build trust
Yeah so that that makes a very good point
And speaking of that lesson number fiveum and I'm sure this is a very common
(18:24):
lesson imposter syndrome is normal
Karen Loon (18:27):
Mm
Jeffery Wang (18:29):
now start start with what imposter syndrome is.
Karen Loon (18:31):
Yeah So imposter syndrome is is situation a situations where you
feel really uncomfortable Um Being likea fraud That's somehow where some people
describe it And um so basically for formy situation I think the biggest challenge
uh I experienced becoming a leader waswhen I took on a big client role So it
was about 10 years ago and um I was thefirst female to take on this role Uh
(18:55):
all the people who'd taken on were maleand probably 10 years older One was a
Uh quite an autocratic Chinese leaderThe other one was Caucasian So I didn't
fit the mold and I looked really youngAnd so I remember going along to sit in
the boardroom I had to make myself looka lot older because I also look really
young and I actually really felt prettyintimidated And it was also the situation
(19:18):
uh where I explained earlier where I alsohad the CEO who was also quite sometimes
aggressive so it didn't help But one ofthe things I realized so I was doing my
research for my book I realized that beingan imposter or feeling like an imposter
is actually pretty normal Everyone goesthrough these periods of time particularly
when you're trying to learn to becomea leader because in a way you're acting
(19:39):
and trying to behave in a certain wayand it feels really really uncomfortable.
But it's actually one of those things thatif you get over some of these feelings
Um and you think Okay I've learned thisis okay I can do this then you'll actually
be a a better person And so uh yeahit's it's a normal part of of learning
Jeffery Wang (19:57):
So is is the lesson you just gotta accept that when you start you are
going to feel like an imposter You knowUh just knowing that is good enough or
you know or is it a case of you know justjust take your time Um you will grow into
the the role that you're trying to play
Karen Loon (20:15):
I think it's probably a combination I think um if I think about
it maybe we probably feel like impostersas adults but I I was thinking earlier
on when I was writing my book when we'rekids we don't we are not scared Um we try
lots of things out and we make mistakesbut it's okay But I think sometimes
when it's adults we we get scared andget worried And so actually one of the
(20:38):
questions possibly is to try and thinkabout well why do I feel worried What's
actually holding me back Um and maybeif you actually reflect on that a little
bit more then you may be able to todeal with these things a little better
Jeffery Wang (20:51):
Absolutely Let's take a quick break here We like to thank our
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(21:11):
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And we're back here with Karen Loon.
Lesson number six Don't be scaredto look in the mirror Now why would
(21:34):
you be scared looking in the mirror
Karen Loon (21:36):
you might think something horrible
No Um no I I guess when I was thinkingabout this um one of the things I I I
never used to like at at all was gettingfeedback at work um or feedback at school
or getting those reports because youalways were scared that you were being
criticized And and you know sometimesparticularly you get more senior if
you didn't trust the feedback you knowyou could be politically motivated or
(21:59):
something like that But um I I learnedmore recently that um feedback can be
extremely positive So in my program atINSEAD we actually did a couple of things
Uh we did we got 720 degree feedback Somost people know of 360 degree feedback
where you get feedback from your bossesyour staff and your peers Um in this
(22:20):
case there was 720 degree feedback So youalso Feedback from your family which was
actually really invaluable and actuallywas probably the more interesting and the
most more accurate feedback about who youare And and then the other thing I did is
um something called role biographies Soit's something I spoke about a bit earlier
Um it is a tool where you actually learnabout yourself and your roles Um and and
(22:43):
I found out so much about myself If itcan also be done in groups so not just
one on one but actually when you all talkabout it in a small group it actually
can be more effective because peoplesee things that you don't see Um and I
guess that's the the main thing Oftenyou you don't see your your not false
but different lenses of you or how youbehave or how people feel you are how you
(23:07):
are Um and so um From that feedback I Iguess I'm a lot more aware of how people
think of me how uh they feel about meUh and I think it it makes me hopefully
a better leader and a better person
Jeffery Wang (23:20):
Sure But so it's all easy to say just embrace that feedback How did you
overcome that fear of negative feedback
Karen Loon (23:29):
I think I probably will always have it but I think you know if you get
used to it and then you try to use thatfeedback yourself and then you maybe go
back and see how you know you've you'vegone I think you know it can be this
positive sort of learning cycle as well.
And so you know I think uh often we avoidit but actually that may be um something
(23:50):
that leads to to problems later on So mymy suggestion is is really to embrace it
Jeffery Wang (23:55):
Absolutely And it's all just part of growing up right
Um I think as when we're youngerwe're we're fearful of rejection
Karen Loon (24:02):
Mm-hmm
Jeffery Wang (24:02):
and negative feedback and and as such But the more you have it the
more you realize you grow stronger andthe more you build that uh resistance
and tolerance to it So yeah absolutelyGreat advice embracing feedback
good or bad
Lesson number seven embrace negativecapability I don't know what negative
care capability means Can you help
Karen Loon (24:23):
Yeah no and I hadn't heard about it uh until you know more recently
but it's a really interesting idea . SoI was actually coined by the poet John
Keets and he referred to the ability tolive with and tolerate paradox uh and
to contain So we're seeing paradox We'retalking about being able to manage two
different things like We talk about worklife balance you know actually it's it's
(24:46):
like a bit of a seesaw Um and so negativecapability is really about um the ability
to not do something um and being patientand having poise So in my case um I tend
to be quite impulsive so you know whensomeone asks me to do something I'll do
it straight away which I think is reallygood at certain in certain types of jobs
um and was really important in Singaporecause clients are really demanding but
(25:10):
actually I've realized that having thosegut reactions and just doing things
without necessarily reflect And and andanalyzing situations uh both the rational
side so the facts but also you knowwhat's also happening may not actually
lead to the right decisions And it'sreally important for me now cause I'm
a non-executive director So around theboardroom table we're dealing with a lot
(25:31):
of complex issues for which there's oftenno right or wrong answer Uh so really you
know I've I'm getting more used to thisimportance of negative capability and just
being comfortable being uncomfortable andnot reacting straight away Uh and just
really trying to think and sleep over umyou know tricky tricky ideas some people
(25:52):
I spoke to um are really good at this sothey write journals They they actually
if they've got complex issues they tryto write a journal reflect on these
things and go back on it And and someother people I know use meditation Uh so
it's definitely something I think uh forall people is particularly as they get
more senior that they should think about
Jeffery Wang (26:12):
And certainly in the tricky situations you know sometimes acting
too quickly or impulsively tends tomake things worse so I agree with that
Uh lesson number eight Invest in me time
Karen Loon (26:23):
Mm-hmm So uh probably very typical of someone who graduated in the
nineties All I wanted to do was start workearning money you know travel overseas
and all those things But um I realizedone of the things is that once you start
work it's like this treadmill and you runand run and run and you can't get off.
And it was really probably only about10 years ago I had an opportunity at
(26:43):
work to have a bit of a break They Youknow you have some downtime get yourself
ready met my husband uh you know gotto do some fun things And so now in my
older age um I've actually realized youdo need downtime because careers are
really long And and you know if you don'thave these breaks you know you'll have
health problems You'll get too stressedyou won't learn how to become a better
(27:07):
person and that sort of thing And so I'dsuch say you know invest in in me time
Jeffery Wang (27:12):
Hmm And I like the way you use the word invest
Karen Loon (27:15):
Mm
Jeffery Wang (27:15):
um because there is a return to spending time with
yourself or spending time on yourself
Um so thanks for that
lesson number nine Uh and I'veheard this one before by Steve Jobs
you say stay hungry stay foolish
Karen Loon (27:31):
Yeah So you know I think careers are really long So when I
think about my career um I started ituh as in audit and we didn't even have
personal computers We basically had apencil piece of paper and a calculator
Jeffery Wang (27:45):
Whoa whoa You're giving away your age Yeah
Karen Loon (27:47):
You know so you can probably tell my age here So you know now the
most of the things that you would doin that area now you can do on an iPad
And so careers are so long Um and soI think one of the things is you just
really have to continue to learn youknow not just the technical stuff not
just the soft skill stuff but justreally try things out um because what
you've learned at schools not necessarilygoing to cut it these days Yeah
Jeffery Wang (28:11):
but is it just about careers though I mean you know clearly
as the world change and and the speedof change has picked up you know
it's not just about staying relevantin the workplace it's it's about
staying relevant in life isn't it?
Karen Loon (28:24):
Oh definite definitely Yeah Yeah
Jeffery Wang (28:27):
All right well before I get to lesson number 10 I'm gonna throw you
a bit of a curve ball here Karen So whatis something that you have unlearned And
what I mean by that is something that youheld to be ironclads truth when you're
starting out in your career in you know inyour twenties uh that you learned letter
learned in life through you know you knowthe hard way that it just wasn't the case
Karen Loon (28:50):
Well that's a really tough question I always used to um question
Some of the things my parents did myparents actually worked really hard So
we're talking about these patterns of uhwork Uh my parents ran their own business
Um my dad started his business at 21 andretired Retired or stopped uh that in his
(29:11):
forties And I used to wonder why I usedto think Well you know surely you wanna
keep working keep yourself relevant Butuh You know you can probably see that
pattern coming through in a lot of whatI've said is actually I've realized that
you know my my parents were probablyright You you don't if you keep working
too hard you know something will giveAnd so you know I've actually learned
(29:31):
my my my dad's probably a lot wiser thanI have gave him credit for when I was
20 So that's probably the main thing
Jeffery Wang (29:39):
So don't you're not a machine don't just keep working
You've gotta take your breaks Yeah
Karen Loon (29:43):
Yeah definitely
Jeffery Wang (29:45):
Excellent Well the last and my favorite lesson not because I love
food Oh actually yes it is because I lovefood The best way to bond is over food
Karen Loon (29:55):
Yeah Yeah So um these days one of the uh things that my husband
and I love is we're we're foodies Andit's interesting cause I I grew up
in Australia and uh unlike most AsianAustralians I grew up in a diet of
white bread vegemite sandwiches and meatpies which is pretty disgusting But um
Jeffery Wang (30:11):
but oh look 20 years ago or maybe even maybe 30 years ago I would've
said Oh lucky you Uh but um but it's adifferent time now I think it would say
Oh may you know Sorry to hear that that
Karen Loon (30:25):
No no.
Anyway Um but yeah no I went to Singaporeand obviously the food's very different
there And then when you travel I usedto travel a lot in the region so you
realize that the you know especially whenyou're in environments where you're under
pressure and you work hard the best way toget to know people And get to know their
cultures over food So you know whetherit's you know Kaiseki meals in Japan
(30:46):
or whether it's uh you know who knowswhat um in in other countries they're
just amazing things Um and so today myhusband and I built we actually pick our
holidays a Based on food destinationsnot the other way around And the first
thing we do when we get to countriesis we actually pick the restaurants we
want to eat and then we decide what wewant to do Um but it's most amazing way
(31:07):
to get to you know uh learn about newthings learn about new cultures um and
you know meet people that you normallywouldn't meet Because if you you know
start you know build up uh relationshipsstrike conversations with foodies you
know they're often people you'd neverdeal with Um and so I'd say just bond
over food because it's just so much fun
Jeffery Wang (31:27):
because everyone eats
Karen Loon (31:29):
has to eat
Jeffery Wang (31:29):
Yeah Well everyone I I think almost everyone loves food Um and
certainly you know uh I like the ideaof meeting new people or or trying out
new things but is it necessarily doesit necessarily have to be you know new
kind of food Can can it be just the samekind of food as what you always liked
Karen Loon (31:48):
it can be both I mean new food I think is great to find out about new
ideas but you know there's a also a wholelot of comfort you get from familiar foods
as well Yeah So you know to me familyand friends is often comfortable food but
uh trying new things out um particularlyuh if you ever go to Singapore uh
where it has a which has a really greatfood scene I think is is great too
Jeffery Wang (32:11):
And you just made me hungry Uh well thank you so much for sharing your
wisdom Karen and uh certainly you knowI've I've learned a bit about your life
and and how you came to be the person thatyou are today uh and really appreciate
the the lessons that you've shared.
And um we'll finish on that Um you'vebeen listening to the podcast 10 Lessons
(32:32):
Learned where we dispense wisdom forcareer business and life Our guest
today has been Karen Loon sharing the10 lessons It took her years to learn
this episode is produced by RobertHossary and sponsored by the Professional
Development Forum Don't forget toleave us a review or comment You can
even email us at podcast 10 lessonslearn.com That's podcast number one
(32:54):
zero lessons learn.com Go ahead and hitthat subscribe button so that you don't
miss an episode of the only podcast thatmake the world a little wiser Lesson by
lesson Thanks for listening and stay safe
I guess when I'm saying networking we're saying broad networks
and I think there's people need tounderstand there's different types of
networks whether it's sponsors or mentorsor others So I guess what I'm saying here
is that you need a lot of different peopleto help you during your career because
Actually we're talking about leadershipLeadership is all about leading others
and having followers But to learn howto be a leader you probably need others
(00:22):
to help you so it's actually recognizingthat you just can't be doing the job.
If you want to be actually ableto succeed and go into leadership
you need the help of others
Jeffery Wang (00:32):
Hello and welcome to the podcast "10 Lessons Learned", where we
dispense wisdom, not just information, notjust facts, not just mere platitudes to an
international audience of rising leaders.
In other words, in this podcast you'llhear valuable insights that you cannot
learn from a textbook, because ittook us years to learn this stuff.
My name is Jeffery Wang,the founder of Professional
(00:53):
Development Forum and your host.
This podcast is sponsored by theProfessional Development Forum which helps
diverse young professionals of any agefind fulfillment in the modern workplace.
Today we're joined by Karen Loon.
Karen Loon is a non-executive director,a former partner at PWC Singapore.
She has worked with theworld's leading banks
(01:14):
and led D.I.E diversity initiativesShe has qualifications in system
psychodynamics, that's a big wordand uh governance from INSEAD
and research interest in identitywork and organizational change
which we'll get to in a minute.
She's also the author ofa recently release book
"Fostering Culturally DiverseLeadership in Organizations"
(01:36):
So I know also from reading about you inthe news that you are fourth generation
Asian Australian growing up uh in the
country town of New SouthWales called Tamworth.
There there's a theory that the reason whyculturally diverse people aren't getting
into leadership is because you know theyhaven't assimilated to the culture yet.
(01:57):
But looking at you, you'reprobably as Australian as one
could possibly be Asian background.
So if even you can see that thereis an issue um then potentially
that the issue is much much bigger.
Karen Loon (02:13):
Yeah No no definitely Um thanks for uh the the kind intro but no
it's it's it's interesting because uh
as I actually looked at my own storycuz I think part of the whole research
I did was around my own story andunderstanding I've I've realized how
much has been shaped by the experiencesof my grandparents, and and their
experiences were quite different to oursbut you know some of those um challenges
(02:35):
that they faced actually becomingAustralians and feeling like they're
Australians, I think are still thingsthat uh I experience in a way today.
So uh it's been a fascinating journey
Jeffery Wang (02:44):
Absolutely.
And you did start your journeyin Australia in your professional
journey Um do you think youwould've gone as far as you did if
you did not leave for Singapore?
Karen Loon (02:55):
Yeah unfortunately not Um I mean it was challenging at the time
for women, I think And I recall I hadn'tseen you know a lot of female leaders,
but uh definitely it was probably onlyFive years before I made it to partner
So maybe in the late nineties when youactually really started to see Asian
Australians make it into say partnershipuh levels in in most of the the firms.
(03:16):
So uh it's unfortunate and you know to methat's something that I I wanna try and
see we can change for the next generation
Jeffery Wang (03:23):
If you want to find out more about her research you
can certainly check it out in herlatest book Uh "Fostering Culturally
Diverse Leadership in Organisations".
So without much a do let's jump into yourlessons then Um lesson number one "life
is full of patterns that we continuouslyrepeat", what do you mean by that?
Karen Loon (03:42):
I used to have um a client a big client I worked with in Singapore
for a couple of years And uh I'd goalong I was a an audit partner and He
was quite serious also whenever yougot something um or or you came up
with a point of view that he didn'tagree with he'd actually sort of
lash out at you a bit aggressively.
Um no matter whether you were aninternal uh staff member or external.
(04:05):
Um and so I remember I used to alwayswant to over- prepare for the meetings
we were going to because I just didn'twant to necessarily be put on the spot.
and I hated to be put on the spot.
Cuz I realized Um later on it was a bitlike being with my dad Um I actually
have a father who's quite strong whenmy father would make a comment I never
wanted to say anything Cause he alwayswanted to be right no matter whether you
(04:27):
argued Um so I'd over prepare and overprepare and at the end of it because I
was the most senior person I had to havethe answer Um so it was an interesting
thing I actually realized that some ofthe patterns that we have at work are
really things that we've as children andwe tend to repeat them So um in my studies
I learned about this thing called C C RT It's actually called Core Conflictual
(04:50):
Relationship Theory which is basic thatoften we repeat these sort of uh patterns
that we learn as kids And in my case whenI see someone that's a bit scary to me
who's quite aggressive I behave like Iwould with my father which is I would tend
not to react, I tend to not say anything
which is probably not the best thingto to do at work So in summary I think
(05:11):
you know the lesson to me was to learnthat life is full of these patterns Um
and so it was good to be aware of them
Jeffery Wang (05:17):
okay So be being aware is important Um I mean once that you've
observed such a pattern occurring Iimagine there there'd be a time when you
had this aha moment when you realizedthat you know the reason why you're
unable to deal with people of such sort ofaggressive nature or sort of power figure
uh is because of your of your dad Butthen how did you learn to overcome that
(05:39):
what did you have to do to you know onceyou observed that pattern to break it?
Karen Loon (05:44):
I think being aware is obviously a start but I think sometimes
to um not default to that behavior justreally just take a breath obviously
make sure you prepare but actually ifyou have a point in view um and you're
able to articulate it then most peoplewill respect you And so I think part of
it is to actually give things a go andremember that actually sometimes when
(06:04):
they're sort of uh reacting It may notnecessarily be be you it may be them
reacting as well And so um just reallyyou know thinking about this reflecting
on it um and and realizing this isokay if I have a point of view okay.
Jeffery Wang (06:21):
Is it a case of just getting older and wiser and tougher and you know
getting used to Okay With conflict oris is there an aha moment that that made
you realize Hey I can deal with this now
Karen Loon (06:34):
I think you get over these things I think that's all part of learning
to be a leader So um but I think I diddefinitely have a bit of an aha moment
which was probably after all of this umwhich is why I can actually articulate
it now I don't think I necessarilyunderstood it at the time uh but it's
definitely been something I've I'velearned about in in more recent years
Jeffery Wang (06:52):
Yeah And certainly you wish you knew
Karen Loon (06:54):
I wish I
Jeffery Wang (06:55):
aware
Karen Loon (06:55):
yes
Jeffery Wang (06:56):
earlier on Awesome
Well lesson number two and uh verytypically Asian one Uh you said that
your family will always be your biggestcheer squad Tell us about your family
Karen Loon (07:09):
Yeah so um I'm an eldest child Um very interesting So back to my
dad again So my dad was always the onethat wanted me to be really resilient
so he said I wanted to toughen you up Umbecause I think he felt that you know he
had to be tough in the world to succeedAnd so I've always been pretty independent
Went to uni at 17 lived away from homewent overseas and that sort of thing Um
(07:33):
and so yeah being independent's just justthe way I've I've been brought up But um
you know I think I've realized that umone of the reasons I do it is actually
because I wanted to prove to my familythat I was good enough as well which
is something that uh you know sometimesyou feel quite insecure about certain
things And uh I do these things becauseactually I wanted the I guess praise by
(07:56):
my parents even though they often tellme Oh you shouldn't do these things Like
uh my dad will always says Look why areyou doing this cultural diversity things
No one will respect you Um but on theother hand he comes back to me and says
Well you know he cheers He's and tellshis friends that this is really good
So I actually think we have to rememberthat um your family's always there They
always are the ones who'll assess you andthey'll often be very very negative to
(08:18):
your face Um but they're also the onesthat'll be there for you no matter what
happens in your life And so I think youknow we shouldn't forget our families
They'll always be there to cheer us on
Jeffery Wang (08:28):
Yeah You To me it sounds like your family is just a very you know
your dad's a very typical Asian dad Youknow high expectation Nothing's ever good
enough You know they want you to not talkto any boys But then you know as soon as
you graduate from university they wantyou to be married the day after Mm-hmm
That's the kind of life that you you yousee you know a lot of Asian uh people
(08:51):
have to contend with And it sounds likewhat you're saying is that uh despite
you know many protestations on you knowpotentially on criticisms that they have
of you Ultimately they want the bestof you and that you should um continue
with your endeavors You know becauseyou you do make your dad proud Yeah
Karen Loon (09:09):
yeah No no it's it's very funny when you always hear the
friends coming back with the commentsso uh Yeah You realize actually you're
not so bad Um so it it's been aninteresting learning for me Mm-hmm
Jeffery Wang (09:19):
I I wonder how much of it is just a cultural thing where uh Asian
parents uh just find it difficult to bedirect with their compliments or or even
expressions of love You know How oftendo you hear I love you from your parents
Um and and how much of that is overcomingthat inability to openly communicate
Uh and I suppose you know as People whouh travel the world a bit You know you
(09:42):
kind of be exposed to different cultureswhere you can choose to you know adopt
a different way of expressing yourself
Karen Loon (09:51):
Yeah No and it's it's interesting being you know fourth
generation Asian Australian we're notthe most talkative about you know how we
feel Um so that going back to the some ofthe other comments earlier about family
shaping us I think it is something thatwe actually you know um bring through from
from different generations from our family
Jeffery Wang (10:09):
Oh I find that absolutely intriguing actually that comment
uh because I'd imagine being fourthgeneration Asian Australian uh you would
have so many so much interactions withAustralians that you know the cultural
element would've rubbed off on yourfamily And yet four generations on so
much of what was uh a typical Asianculture was still maintained within
(10:34):
your family How how do you explain that
Karen Loon (10:37):
I don't know It's it's a tough one I think it's just uh you know
there are certain I I actually thinkit's possibly because uh my family
lived through the White Australiapolicy and so they family was always
the there to support them And so thosefamily values were passed on because
they thought that was important andthey sort of stuck together Um so I
(10:57):
find it an interesting concept I havesome very Australian aspects as well
uh about food which we'll talk aboutlater And and you know uh my family
don't have three generation familiesbut you know certain values definitely
I think are are from from Asia Yeah
Jeffery Wang (11:13):
Well speaking of generations you're lesson number three
says Our future is shaped by our pastSounds like a bit of a story there
Karen Loon (11:23):
So um it's an interesting uh topic after these days getting asked a lot
of questions like you know what did you doWere you know when you wanted to when you
left uni and and that sort of thing Andand honestly I had no idea what I wanted
to do Um so I just drifted into rolesI worked with teams I had some really
great opportunities and but if there werethings I didn't like Decided no maybe I'll
(11:45):
just go off and and do something else.
So I've actually realized when I wentback to study um that actually a lot
of what we do is shaped by our earlierroles in systems So what I do at work
was often shaped by the roles and thethings I Like doing in my family and
then what I did at school And then ifI like it then I try and find those
(12:05):
things Uh and the other thing is that weoften when we go to work look for things
that help us feel better because of theanxieties in our our childhoods So we
often look for certain things I think I Ireflected on some of those things earlier.
So we want to join companies because ofour self-esteem So I've actually realized
that Everything we do and things we lookfor is shaped by what we did in the past
(12:28):
which I think is a very very powerfulthing to understand particularly when
we're trying to understand what thingslike we'd like to do in future jobs
Jeffery Wang (12:36):
Yeah This sounds like a bit of a psychological conversation isn't it
So you know people have a chip on theirshoulders because of you know potentially
things that they carry from theirchildhoods and that you mentioned before
that you're always trying to do somethingthat you you believe will um impress
your parents so knowing that insightuh what can you do with that information
(12:59):
What what do you do knowing that youknow your so much of you is shaped
by what happened to you in the past
Karen Loon (13:05):
Yeah I think it's useful to Reflect on because um like in my
case um I actually realized that I likea lot of limelight in certain cases.
And this there was a whole concept ofstars actually Um you know I I had a I
was in a newspaper article um when I wasseven and it said Karen is a star And I
(13:26):
did some exercises later and I realizedthat I actually wanted appreciation and
being um like a star Um but one of thethings I've realized is from some of
those exercises The lens I also use umtends to focus on some of these things
when I I look at examples of of observingthings and that sort of thing So to me
(13:46):
what I think I learned from a lot of thisis that um you are shaped by your roles
but also the way you look at things alsois shaped by that as well Um which is
a slightly different different angle.
And being aware of that some of theseyou know perspectives can actually
help you be a lot more wise whenyou're looking at situations and
trying to understand what's going
Jeffery Wang (14:07):
Hmm indeed Now you are the second uh Asian Australian woman that
I've um interviewed And I've noticedit's a bit of a theme that you are
very introspective in terms of you knowunderstanding your psychology So uh
potentially we're onto something here.
Uh but no lesson number four It takesa little bit of a different bend and
and it sounds like great career adviceUh and you said in lesson number four
(14:31):
if you're not networking you're notworking What do you mean by that?
Karen Loon (14:35):
Yeah so uh Like a lot of kids who grow up and and study hard you
know had the pressure of the parents UmI did also uh experience some setbacks
Uh you know when I was a little bitmore junior at pwc I you know did really
well So I got early promotions but theneventually I hit a ceiling Um I was told
that my soft skills weren't so good.
(14:57):
Then I was also having anotherincident when I was uh going for
partnership in Singapore and I hadso much work uh was working working
working and I was being put up forpartnership and I didn't get through.
And so the feedback I got wasactually the people didn't know you.
They didn't know you as a person Theyknew your work but didn't know you as a
person Um and so one of the things I'verealized and I still have to remember
(15:20):
this myself is that often you know wedo perform in ways that um are shaped by
what we thought was working in the pastwhich we've talked about but actually as
we get older we actually need to buildand continue to build our networks cuz
that's so important at work Uh and soI've learned it's not the technical things
that you know it's actually who you knowas well Um and so that's so important
(15:43):
whether it's your career sponsors whetherit's your mentors and that sort of thing
Jeffery Wang (15:47):
Well there are two aspects of that I like to dig into a little bit
So number one is the idea that whenyou're working you should be working you
know networking sounds like you're makingfriends you're having fun you know when
you're having fun you can't possibly beworking Especially that's kind I feel
like that's a bit of a a mentality Alot of uh Asian Australians do have what
do you say to that sort of um thinking
Karen Loon (16:09):
Mm-hmm I guess when I'm saying networking we're saying broad
networks and I think there's people needto understand there's different types of
networks whether it's sponsors or mentorsor others So I guess what I'm saying here
is that you need a lot of different peopleto help you during your career because
Actually we're talking about leadershipLeadership is all about leading others
(16:29):
and having followers But to learn how tobe a leader you probably need others to
help you Uh so it's actually recognizingthat you just can't be doing the job.
If you want to be actually ableto succeed and go into leadership
you need the help of others
Jeffery Wang (16:43):
Absolutely And it's the second part of that And and you said a
keyword there that you lack the softskills And then the second part you said
that people didn't know who you wereas a person And I know there's is very
typical of a lot of uh especially peopleof Asian backgrounds that we tend to be
very reserved We don't let Personalityout And a lot of that is just because
(17:04):
that's the way we're taught You knowuh we we have this assumption that we
it's not professional for people toyou know to act out their personalities
So what have you learned in your inthe process of you know making partner
about how to let other people know whoyou are as a person and and what is the
ultimate point of knowing you as a person
Karen Loon (17:24):
So it's interesting that that feedback was actually when I was
in Singapore So I think it's it's alsoa combination of who you are as well so
that the people in Singapore didn't knowme But um you know people want to you know
they don't just wanna be transactional umand do work with you They actually want
to know whether they can trust you Anda lot so much of work is actually around
trust Can I trust that this person'sgonna do the right thing if I actually
(17:46):
engage them as a client or they comea colleague And so Only when you you
really let that guard down and you talkabout you know whatever it's your food
or whatever um and they get to know as aperson then you they can really go Okay
yeah I think I can get this person Um soI think it's uh moving beyond transactions
Jeffery Wang (18:03):
indeed And if a person is guarded around you to you know let let
you into their lives you know there theremay be something he's holding back or
she's holding back and that's not a notnecessarily a good way to build trust
Yeah so that that makes a very good point
And speaking of that lesson number fiveum and I'm sure this is a very common
(18:24):
lesson imposter syndrome is normal
Karen Loon (18:27):
Mm
Jeffery Wang (18:29):
now start start with what imposter syndrome is.
Karen Loon (18:31):
Yeah So imposter syndrome is is situation a situations where you
feel really uncomfortable Um Being likea fraud That's somehow where some people
describe it And um so basically for formy situation I think the biggest challenge
uh I experienced becoming a leader waswhen I took on a big client role So it
was about 10 years ago and um I was thefirst female to take on this role Uh
(18:55):
all the people who'd taken on were maleand probably 10 years older One was a
Uh quite an autocratic Chinese leaderThe other one was Caucasian So I didn't
fit the mold and I looked really youngAnd so I remember going along to sit in
the boardroom I had to make myself looka lot older because I also look really
young and I actually really felt prettyintimidated And it was also the situation
(19:18):
uh where I explained earlier where I alsohad the CEO who was also quite sometimes
aggressive so it didn't help But one ofthe things I realized so I was doing my
research for my book I realized that beingan imposter or feeling like an imposter
is actually pretty normal Everyone goesthrough these periods of time particularly
when you're trying to learn to becomea leader because in a way you're acting
(19:39):
and trying to behave in a certain wayand it feels really really uncomfortable.
But it's actually one of those things thatif you get over some of these feelings
Um and you think Okay I've learned thisis okay I can do this then you'll actually
be a a better person And so uh yeahit's it's a normal part of of learning
Jeffery Wang (19:57):
So is is the lesson you just gotta accept that when you start you are
going to feel like an imposter You knowUh just knowing that is good enough or
you know or is it a case of you know justjust take your time Um you will grow into
the the role that you're trying to play
Karen Loon (20:15):
I think it's probably a combination I think um if I think about
it maybe we probably feel like impostersas adults but I I was thinking earlier
on when I was writing my book when we'rekids we don't we are not scared Um we try
lots of things out and we make mistakesbut it's okay But I think sometimes
when it's adults we we get scared andget worried And so actually one of the
(20:38):
questions possibly is to try and thinkabout well why do I feel worried What's
actually holding me back Um and maybeif you actually reflect on that a little
bit more then you may be able to todeal with these things a little better
Jeffery Wang (20:51):
Absolutely Let's take a quick break here We like to thank our
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(21:11):
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The link will be in the show notes
And we're back here with Karen Loon.
Lesson number six Don't be scaredto look in the mirror Now why would
(21:34):
you be scared looking in the mirror
Karen Loon (21:36):
you might think something horrible
No Um no I I guess when I was thinkingabout this um one of the things I I I
never used to like at at all was gettingfeedback at work um or feedback at school
or getting those reports because youalways were scared that you were being
criticized And and you know sometimesparticularly you get more senior if
you didn't trust the feedback you knowyou could be politically motivated or
(21:59):
something like that But um I I learnedmore recently that um feedback can be
extremely positive So in my program atINSEAD we actually did a couple of things
Uh we did we got 720 degree feedback Somost people know of 360 degree feedback
where you get feedback from your bossesyour staff and your peers Um in this
(22:20):
case there was 720 degree feedback So youalso Feedback from your family which was
actually really invaluable and actuallywas probably the more interesting and the
most more accurate feedback about who youare And and then the other thing I did is
um something called role biographies Soit's something I spoke about a bit earlier
Um it is a tool where you actually learnabout yourself and your roles Um and and
(22:43):
I found out so much about myself If itcan also be done in groups so not just
one on one but actually when you all talkabout it in a small group it actually
can be more effective because peoplesee things that you don't see Um and I
guess that's the the main thing Oftenyou you don't see your your not false
but different lenses of you or how youbehave or how people feel you are how you
(23:07):
are Um and so um From that feedback I Iguess I'm a lot more aware of how people
think of me how uh they feel about meUh and I think it it makes me hopefully
a better leader and a better person
Jeffery Wang (23:20):
Sure But so it's all easy to say just embrace that feedback How did you
overcome that fear of negative feedback
Karen Loon (23:29):
I think I probably will always have it but I think you know if you get
used to it and then you try to use thatfeedback yourself and then you maybe go
back and see how you know you've you'vegone I think you know it can be this
positive sort of learning cycle as well.
And so you know I think uh often we avoidit but actually that may be um something
(23:50):
that leads to to problems later on So mymy suggestion is is really to embrace it
Jeffery Wang (23:55):
Absolutely And it's all just part of growing up right
Um I think as when we're youngerwe're we're fearful of rejection
Karen Loon (24:02):
Mm-hmm
Jeffery Wang (24:02):
and negative feedback and and as such But the more you have it the
more you realize you grow stronger andthe more you build that uh resistance
and tolerance to it So yeah absolutelyGreat advice embracing feedback
good or bad
Lesson number seven embrace negativecapability I don't know what negative
care capability means Can you help
Karen Loon (24:23):
Yeah no and I hadn't heard about it uh until you know more recently
but it's a really interesting idea . SoI was actually coined by the poet John
Keets and he referred to the ability tolive with and tolerate paradox uh and
to contain So we're seeing paradox We'retalking about being able to manage two
different things like We talk about worklife balance you know actually it's it's
(24:46):
like a bit of a seesaw Um and so negativecapability is really about um the ability
to not do something um and being patientand having poise So in my case um I tend
to be quite impulsive so you know whensomeone asks me to do something I'll do
it straight away which I think is reallygood at certain in certain types of jobs
um and was really important in Singaporecause clients are really demanding but
(25:10):
actually I've realized that having thosegut reactions and just doing things
without necessarily reflect And and andanalyzing situations uh both the rational
side so the facts but also you knowwhat's also happening may not actually
lead to the right decisions And it'sreally important for me now cause I'm
a non-executive director So around theboardroom table we're dealing with a lot
(25:31):
of complex issues for which there's oftenno right or wrong answer Uh so really you
know I've I'm getting more used to thisimportance of negative capability and just
being comfortable being uncomfortable andnot reacting straight away Uh and just
really trying to think and sleep over umyou know tricky tricky ideas some people
(25:52):
I spoke to um are really good at this sothey write journals They they actually
if they've got complex issues they tryto write a journal reflect on these
things and go back on it And and someother people I know use meditation Uh so
it's definitely something I think uh forall people is particularly as they get
more senior that they should think about
Jeffery Wang (26:12):
And certainly in the tricky situations you know sometimes acting
too quickly or impulsively tends tomake things worse so I agree with that
Uh lesson number eight Invest in me time
Karen Loon (26:23):
Mm-hmm So uh probably very typical of someone who graduated in the
nineties All I wanted to do was start workearning money you know travel overseas
and all those things But um I realizedone of the things is that once you start
work it's like this treadmill and you runand run and run and you can't get off.
And it was really probably only about10 years ago I had an opportunity at
(26:43):
work to have a bit of a break They Youknow you have some downtime get yourself
ready met my husband uh you know gotto do some fun things And so now in my
older age um I've actually realized youdo need downtime because careers are
really long And and you know if you don'thave these breaks you know you'll have
health problems You'll get too stressedyou won't learn how to become a better
(27:07):
person and that sort of thing And so I'dsuch say you know invest in in me time
Jeffery Wang (27:12):
Hmm And I like the way you use the word invest
Karen Loon (27:15):
Mm
Jeffery Wang (27:15):
um because there is a return to spending time with
yourself or spending time on yourself
Um so thanks for that
lesson number nine Uh and I'veheard this one before by Steve Jobs
you say stay hungry stay foolish
Karen Loon (27:31):
Yeah So you know I think careers are really long So when I
think about my career um I started ituh as in audit and we didn't even have
personal computers We basically had apencil piece of paper and a calculator
Jeffery Wang (27:45):
Whoa whoa You're giving away your age Yeah
Karen Loon (27:47):
You know so you can probably tell my age here So you know now the
most of the things that you would doin that area now you can do on an iPad
And so careers are so long Um and soI think one of the things is you just
really have to continue to learn youknow not just the technical stuff not
just the soft skill stuff but justreally try things out um because what
you've learned at schools not necessarilygoing to cut it these days Yeah
Jeffery Wang (28:11):
but is it just about careers though I mean you know clearly
as the world change and and the speedof change has picked up you know
it's not just about staying relevantin the workplace it's it's about
staying relevant in life isn't it?
Karen Loon (28:24):
Oh definite definitely Yeah Yeah
Jeffery Wang (28:27):
All right well before I get to lesson number 10 I'm gonna throw you
a bit of a curve ball here Karen So whatis something that you have unlearned And
what I mean by that is something that youheld to be ironclads truth when you're
starting out in your career in you know inyour twenties uh that you learned letter
learned in life through you know you knowthe hard way that it just wasn't the case
Karen Loon (28:50):
Well that's a really tough question I always used to um question
Some of the things my parents did myparents actually worked really hard So
we're talking about these patterns of uhwork Uh my parents ran their own business
Um my dad started his business at 21 andretired Retired or stopped uh that in his
(29:11):
forties And I used to wonder why I usedto think Well you know surely you wanna
keep working keep yourself relevant Butuh You know you can probably see that
pattern coming through in a lot of whatI've said is actually I've realized that
you know my my parents were probablyright You you don't if you keep working
too hard you know something will giveAnd so you know I've actually learned
(29:31):
my my my dad's probably a lot wiser thanI have gave him credit for when I was
20 So that's probably the main thing
Jeffery Wang (29:39):
So don't you're not a machine don't just keep working
You've gotta take your breaks Yeah
Karen Loon (29:43):
Yeah definitely
Jeffery Wang (29:45):
Excellent Well the last and my favorite lesson not because I love
food Oh actually yes it is because I lovefood The best way to bond is over food
Karen Loon (29:55):
Yeah Yeah So um these days one of the uh things that my husband
and I love is we're we're foodies Andit's interesting cause I I grew up
in Australia and uh unlike most AsianAustralians I grew up in a diet of
white bread vegemite sandwiches and meatpies which is pretty disgusting But um
Jeffery Wang (30:11):
but oh look 20 years ago or maybe even maybe 30 years ago I would've
said Oh lucky you Uh but um but it's adifferent time now I think it would say
Oh may you know Sorry to hear that that
Karen Loon (30:25):
No no.
Anyway Um but yeah no I went to Singaporeand obviously the food's very different
there And then when you travel I usedto travel a lot in the region so you
realize that the you know especially whenyou're in environments where you're under
pressure and you work hard the best way toget to know people And get to know their
cultures over food So you know whetherit's you know Kaiseki meals in Japan
(30:46):
or whether it's uh you know who knowswhat um in in other countries they're
just amazing things Um and so today myhusband and I built we actually pick our
holidays a Based on food destinationsnot the other way around And the first
thing we do when we get to countriesis we actually pick the restaurants we
want to eat and then we decide what wewant to do Um but it's most amazing way
(31:07):
to get to you know uh learn about newthings learn about new cultures um and
you know meet people that you normallywouldn't meet Because if you you know
start you know build up uh relationshipsstrike conversations with foodies you
know they're often people you'd neverdeal with Um and so I'd say just bond
over food because it's just so much fun
Jeffery Wang (31:27):
because everyone eats
Karen Loon (31:29):
has to eat
Jeffery Wang (31:29):
Yeah Well everyone I I think almost everyone loves food Um and
certainly you know uh I like the ideaof meeting new people or or trying out
new things but is it necessarily doesit necessarily have to be you know new
kind of food Can can it be just the samekind of food as what you always liked
Karen Loon (31:48):
it can be both I mean new food I think is great to find out about new
ideas but you know there's a also a wholelot of comfort you get from familiar foods
as well Yeah So you know to me familyand friends is often comfortable food but
uh trying new things out um particularlyuh if you ever go to Singapore uh
where it has a which has a really greatfood scene I think is is great too
Jeffery Wang (32:11):
And you just made me hungry Uh well thank you so much for sharing your
wisdom Karen and uh certainly you knowI've I've learned a bit about your life
and and how you came to be the person thatyou are today uh and really appreciate
the the lessons that you've shared.
And um we'll finish on that Um you'vebeen listening to the podcast 10 Lessons
(32:32):
Learned where we dispense wisdom forcareer business and life Our guest
today has been Karen Loon sharing the10 lessons It took her years to learn
this episode is produced by RobertHossary and sponsored by the Professional
Development Forum Don't forget toleave us a review or comment You can
even email us at podcast 10 lessonslearn.com That's podcast number one
(32:54):
zero lessons learn.com Go ahead and hitthat subscribe button so that you don't
miss an episode of the only podcast thatmake the world a little wiser Lesson by
lesson Thanks for listening and stay safe
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