March 27, 2025 • 42 mins
The 3D InCites Member Spotlight episode features exclusive conversations with industry leaders at IMAPS Device Packaging Conference 2025, exploring the cutting-edge of semiconductor packaging innovation and domestic manufacturing expansion.
• Rex Anderson of Micross details their RESHAPE program funding and Integra acquisition, establishing them as North America's largest domestic OSAT
• Calvin Cheung of ASE explains how advanced packaging enables AI infrastructure while reducing power consumption by 40-60% through vertical power delivery. He also describes silicon photonics emerging as a game-changer for data transmission, using light instead of electrons for faster, more energy-efficient signal integrity
• Keith Felton of Siemens discusses digital twin technology allowing early predictive analysis during package prototyping to prevent costly downstream engineer change orders - or ECOs.
• Vahid Akhavan highlights PulseForge's photonic debonding technology partnerships for clean, high-yield wafer release
• Bernd Krafthoefer and Florian Lechner, ERS Electonic representatives, share insights on their new European competence center and sub-micron photonic debonding capabilities for 300mm wafers.
Join us next week as we explore supply chain resilience in the semiconductor capital equipment sector with Barry O'Dowd from Kuehne+Nagel and special guest Kamal Aluwalia, CEO of Resilinc. Learn more about member benefits at 3DInCites.com/memberships.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Francoise von Trapp (00:00):
This episode of the 3D Insights
podcast is sponsored by IMAPS,the premier global association
for microelectronics advancedpackaging enthusiasts.
A membership in IMAPS helpsyour company grow its advanced
packaging workforce throughprofessional education and
networking, advances your brandand supports building
relationships.
Imaps helps you learn, connectand collaborate.
Learn more at imapsorg.
(00:22):
Hi there, I'm Francoise vonTrapp, and this is the 3D
Insights Podcast.
Hi everyone, this week we arerecording live from the IMAPS
(00:45):
Device Packaging Conference 2025in Phoenix, arizona, and we've
invited some of our membercompanies our premium and elite
member companies to join us onthe podcast to share their
perspectives of this year'sevent and update us on some of
their company's activities.
So my first guest is RexAnderson of Micross.
Welcome to the podcast, rex.
Rex Anderson, Micross (01:05):
Thank you , thanks for having me.
Francoise von Trapp (01:07):
So before we dive into a few questions,
can you just explain a littlebit about what Micross AIT is
and your role there?
Rex Anderson, Micross (01:15):
Sure, so we're Micross Advanced
Interconnect Technology and weprovide wafer-level packaging
solutions, for it's anopen-source foundry.
We've been doing that sinceabout the mid-'90s.
Micros as a whole provideshigh-reliability packaging
solutions to folks in the Dib,even consumer electronics
(01:41):
companies as well.
Francoise von Trapp (01:42):
Okay, and your role there.
Rex Anderson, Micross (01:43):
I'm the director of operations there and
also the technology lead forour Cornerstone Reshape Award.
It's enabling us to bring up a300 millimeter line and a TSV
finishing line.
Francoise von Trapp (01:54):
So the 300 millimeter line and TSV
finishing line has just been inthe past couple of years.
Rex Anderson, Micross (01:59):
That's correct.
Francoise von Trapp (02:00):
And you received government funding not
through the CHIPS Act butthrough was it?
The Reshape program?
Rex Anderson, Micross (02:07):
That's right.
It was appropriated money thatwas to address the lack or to
secure up a supply chain andadvanced packaging.
It was pre-CHIPS, if you will.
Francoise von Trapp (02:20):
Yeah, okay, so that money has all been
distributed and you don't haveto worry about not getting it.
Rex Anderson, Micross (02:24):
That's right.
Yeah, okay, so that money hasall been distributed and you
don't have to worry about notgetting it.
That's right.
So we are awarded around $134million.
A little north of $80 millionhas been funded.
Okay, and so that $80 millionincludes two main elements, both
of which we've mentioned.
One is to bring up a300-millimeter bumping line and
the other a TSV finishing lineas well, and then there's other
(02:45):
elements that could be fundedalong the way.
Francoise von Trapp (02:47):
Okay, and when do you find out or receive
the last of that funding?
Is that at all in flux with thechange of administration?
Rex Anderson, Micross (02:55):
It could be.
We've had some very positivemeetings even in the last few
weeks.
But the positive thing is, aswe've executed on this program,
money does become available andthe other elements that we're
talking about, you know they'reincremental to what we're doing.
So you know there's a lot ofopportunities to.
You know, bring on a certainpiece of equipment, or a few
(03:16):
pieces of equipment to reallyenable some other capabilities.
Francoise von Trapp (03:19):
So I think people might be confused
sometimes when they hear aboutfunds being appropriated or
awarded or distributed andthinking that you get this big
chunk of money all at once andit's not how it works right.
You get certain amounts andthen you have to meet certain
criteria to get the next.
Rex Anderson, Micross (03:36):
That's right.
So there's milestones that youhave to meet and then you know,
as you meet those milestones,you're having to show evidence
that you've met those milestones.
There's, you know, frequentreviews by the government,
whether that's remote or inperson, and then as you meet
those milestones, then you'refunded for that.
(03:57):
Okay, and so far you guys are ontarget, we are on target, yeah,
in fact, for the 300-millimeterline all the equipment was
ordered and we're receiving thatequipment right now.
So we anticipate having that300-millimeter line installed
before the end of this year.
Francoise von Trapp (04:12):
Okay, and another recent piece of news is
that you've acquired Integra Now.
Integra was an independent OSATbased in Kansas, right?
Rex Anderson, Micross (04:24):
Kansas and California, that's right.
Francoise von Trapp (04:29):
And are you acquiring the whole company?
Rex Anderson, Micross (04:31):
Yes, absolutely so.
You know that's a keyacquisition.
You know our group, which isheadquartered in Melville, new
York, headed by Vince Buffa,he's really made some strategic
acquisitions over the years andreally grown Micros to provide
(04:55):
kind of a full suite and fullsolution for the high
reliability market and Integrais just the latest of that
market.
And Integra is just the latestof that.
You know there's a lot ofsynergies between what they do
and what we had some existingcapabilities within Micros but
they also bring morecapabilities in the back end and
(05:16):
packaging that we necessarilydidn't have.
They fulfill that and it reallysolidifies Micros as the
domestic OSAT here in the UnitedStates.
Francoise von Trapp (05:26):
That's excellent.
Rex Anderson, Micross (05:27):
Yeah, I can say too that you know
Integra.
We've worked with them in thepast, so in a lot of ways they
were a competitor before thisbut they were also a customer
too.
Bringing them on board willtake down a few extra barriers
that maybe had been there in thepast, and that only benefits
our customer base.
Francoise von Trapp (05:47):
As part of the acquisition, you get their
facilities and their staff right, Absolutely yeah.
So now you've expanded, microsshas a facility in North
Carolina, but also in Florida,right?
Rex Anderson, Micross (05:58):
We have quite a few sites around the
world.
So for this conference thesites that are most important is
the North Carolina facilitywhere we do wafer level
interconnect.
We have wafer probe and test inCalifornia at STS.
So if you think about ourcustomer base, wafers coming out
of the foundry can get probedat STS in California, come to us
(06:21):
for wafer level interconnectand then go down to Apopka yes,
in California Come to us forwafer-level interconnect and
then go down to Apopka, florida,to get diced and assembled down
there.
So a full turnkey solutionpost-foundry.
And Integra is adding to thatbecause they have test
capability, they have theback-end capability as well.
Francoise von Trapp (06:37):
Okay, well, that's excellent.
So are you all consolidatedaround the world or around the
country?
Rex Anderson, Micross (06:41):
Around the world and country.
So we have, you know, a site upin Manchester that does
component modification.
Francoise von Trapp (06:47):
UK, manchester, uk or Manchester,
new Hampshire, new Hampshire,yes, new Hampshire, okay.
Rex Anderson, Micross (06:52):
So we do have a couple of sites in the UK
as well that do similar thingsthat Apopka and Manchester does.
We even, you know, have a diodecompany that we purchased down
in Reynosa, mexico, and we havecounterfeit mitigation in
Clearwater.
So we have quite a few diversesites that provide a really full
(07:14):
card of applications andsolutions for our customer base.
Francoise von Trapp (07:18):
Okay, and so this makes you the largest
OSOT in North America.
Rex Anderson, Micross (07:22):
I think that's safe to say right now,
until Amcor and TSMC.
Francoise von Trapp (07:28):
Well, hold on to it while you have it,
that's right.
Rex Anderson, Micross (07:30):
We'll take it.
Francoise von Trapp (07:33):
All right.
So where can people go to learnmore?
Rex Anderson, Micross (07:35):
Well, you can go to mycrosscom.
You can find me on LinkedIn,you can email me if you'd like.
Rexanderson at mycrosscom.
So I'd love to talk to you moreabout it.
Francoise von Trapp (07:45):
Okay, well, we'll put that in the show
notes.
Rex Anderson, Micross (07:47):
Thank you so much.
Francoise von Trapp (07:47):
Thanks again for joining me, okay.
Okay, my next guest is from ourelite member, asc.
I'm speaking with Calvin Chung.
Welcome to the podcast, calvin.
Thank you, it's great to haveyou here.
Can you, before we dive in,explain a little bit about your
role at ASC?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (08:09):
I joined ASC 20 years ago, okay, and I'm a
VP of Engineering and BusinessDevelopment, so I'm involved in
most of the ASC technologydevelopment and I think the last
few years, the most recentyears, I've been focused on
silicon electronics, powerintegrations and AI with the
(08:33):
large infrastructures, meaningdata center guys and networking
guys.
Francoise von Trapp (08:39):
So your job is to really keep your finger
on the heartbeat, what's goingon, and decide what's the next
thing that ASC needs to develop.
Calvin Cheung, ASE (08:47):
Part of it and also we are working directly
with some of our key customersto develop and understand that
technology.
Francoise von Trapp (08:55):
Okay Now, ai has been a very big topic for
the last few years.
I would say Every time we go toan event, there's a lot of
discussion about how AI isdriving the industry, and AI is
the reason heterogeneousintegration and advanced
packaging is finally taking off.
So what are you thinking aresome of the most critical issues
(09:16):
surrounding AI at the moment?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (09:21):
I think the infrastructure, right
Infrastructure we're talkingabout a chip, silicon designs
and also all the hardware andthe backend support for AI.
So we typically call frontendand backends, and the frontend
(09:41):
meaning the chip, designs andalso function.
The backend we call people likeASC, the OSETs.
Francoise von Trapp (09:48):
Right, okay , so it's been really driving
advanced packaging.
What are the benefits ofadvanced packaging to AI modules
?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (09:57):
I think advanced packaging more and more
becomes an enabler for AI.
I mean, you know silicon comesout.
We're talking about highbandwidth and high speed and if
strictly rely on silicon itwould be very expensive.
But package plays a major roleto reduce costs and also enhance
(10:20):
the AI performance andinfrastructures.
Francoise von Trapp (10:24):
So one of the things that I've been
hearing a lot about latelythat's been very concerning is
the amount of energy that AIconsumes.
Can advanced packaging helpwith that?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (10:35):
Definitely.
I think part of the packageinfrastructure can help is in
terms of power delivery.
I think we're working on a lotof the latest technology that's
doing so-called vertical powerdelivery the beginning of the
power delivery and all the wayto the chip.
And using vertical powerdelivery you can save anywhere
(10:58):
up to 40% to 60% of the power.
Francoise von Trapp (11:02):
So do you remember last year at ECTC,
where they were talking aboutusing silicon photonics, and I
know that's one of your areas?
How can silicon photonics helpreduce the energy needs?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (11:18):
I think one of the key features for silicon
photonics is using optics topush in data.
So the the major characteristicfor optic is low energy, high
speeds.
There's a difference betweenpushing the optical data and the
electronic using copper.
Right, so pushing copper itrequires a lot more power and
(11:41):
energy.
Keith Felton, Siemens (11:42):
Why is that?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (11:44):
Well, copper is a physical entity, right?
Just compare light andelectrons.
So photons are running muchfaster than electrons through a
medium like copper.
Francoise von Trapp (12:00):
So it's probably a lot less loss.
Is it heat or energy losssignal.
Calvin Cheung, ASE (12:07):
Well, it's signal integrity right.
Francoise von Trapp (12:10):
Right.
Calvin Cheung, ASE (12:12):
When you talk about heat and also energy
consumption, you're pushingcopper and you cannot push at
long distance, because if you'repushing at long distance, the
signal integrity will decrease,whereas compared to photonics,
the signal could travel a lotmore and a lot faster.
(12:33):
So the signal integrityperspective is much cleaner and
more effective and efficientcompared to copper.
Francoise von Trapp (12:42):
How close are we to implementing silicon
photonics in the advancedpackaging space?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (12:47):
We are implementing it.
I think there's a lot of talkabout, you know, we are building
parkable transceivers for thedata centers.
You know data going in and outand we're using silicon
photonics for the interconnects.
And you also heard a lot aboutCPOs and that's the next stage
(13:09):
or milestone, that we're goingto push for Silicon Photonics.
Francoise von Trapp (13:15):
What industries are we likely to see
AI adopted in most?
I mean, you're talking aboutdata centers.
There's also edge AI.
Calvin Cheung, ASE (13:24):
I think the AI application is so broad,
right, it's almost cost everyindustrial or consumer market
segment.
The most exciting AI is in themedical field.
You know, case in point, right,when you're taking a CT scan,
(13:46):
there's a lot of data behind allthe CT scan data, but with AI
you can analyze it much closerand able to pinpoint exactly
what type of a tumor or whatkind of a disease, instead of
putting a patient on a table andcut it up.
(14:07):
So, I think that's somethingthat's most intriguing.
Just imagine, right, it's veryclose to home.
So you have something, you havean ailment or tumor inside your
body.
You don't need to cut it up.
But AI could be able to analyzea lot of the so-called back-end
data and tell you whetherthat's a good tumor or a
(14:28):
malignant or a benign tumor,Right, right, and that alone is
so significant.
Francoise von Trapp (14:34):
It's important information, you don't
have to remove it if it's notmalignant right.
Speaking of another medicalapplication, for instance
vaccine development.
How quickly we got a COVIDvaccine was because of using AI
right.
Calvin Cheung, ASE (14:52):
One of the key characteristics for AI is
being able to analyze so muchdata.
We have a lot of data butbecause of the computation power
, we're not able to analyze allthe data and try to tell which
one is which.
But with AI, with so much datain the background, we could
extract a lot of information andmake judgments.
Francoise von Trapp (15:16):
How about using AI this is my meta
question using AI to build AIdevices, ai in semiconductor
manufacturing have we startedimplementing it there yet?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (15:28):
Oh, absolutely.
I think one of the keys isusing AI to do defect
inspections.
You know when you do an RDL ora trace right, so a lot of times
you're building so many layerson top but you want to make sure
every single layer has goodconductivity.
(15:49):
So how do you do it?
In the past, we're usingoptical inspection to inspect to
try to find the defects, butwith AI we could detect and fix
the defects in upstream, insteadof wait till the whole part are
coming out.
At the end it says whoop, itdoesn't work.
So that is very, verysignificant in terms of
(16:11):
infection cause and also defectprevention.
Francoise von Trapp (16:15):
Now you and I have been around this
industry for a little while andwe remember before AI could be
used in a lot of things.
I mean before they were evendeveloping AI.
Are you finding that, withengineers that have developed
processes and ways of doingthings, are they excited about
being able to implement AI, oris it something new that they
(16:36):
have to learn and is it becominga little?
Is it a little bit more of achallenge?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (16:40):
AI has a lot to do with how you use AI right
so the hardware part is theinference and also how you
program it.
We call it an algorithm.
So you need to have bothhardware knowledge and also some
software knowledge.
So as an engineer you want tolearn both and the end result
(17:04):
will make you very satisfiedwith what you do.
You write a program and you useAI, using the hardware, to
accomplish defect analysis.
That alone is quite asatisfaction.
Francoise von Trapp (17:21):
So engineers still get excited
about new technologies, even ifyou've been in the industry for
a while.
Calvin Cheung, ASE (17:29):
Oh, I'm always telling people that I'm
having so much fun and peoplelook at me funny.
I say what do you mean fun?
You have to tackle so muchtechnical issues, but the new
things and new technology,that's what I mean by exciting.
That's where the fun comingfrom.
It's fun in a sense that it'sexcitement, it's accomplishment.
Francoise von Trapp (17:54):
Well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate your time.
Calvin Cheung, ASE (17:57):
Sure sure.
Francoise von Trapp (18:04):
So I'm here with Keith Felton from Siemens
Digital Industries Software.
Welcome to the podcast, Keith.
Keith Felton, Siemens (18:10):
Thank you , francoise, glad to be here.
Francoise von Trapp (18:12):
So we know you've been on the podcast
before, but for people who maynot have heard, can you tell a
little bit about yourself, yourbackground and your role at
Siemens?
Keith Felton, Siemens (18:21):
Okay, so I am the Principal Technical
product manager for the SiemensIC packaging solutions.
I've been with Siemens for justover eight years, and before
that I was with Cadence for 18years, and before that I worked
for an EDA company called RaycalRedac.
Francoise von Trapp (18:43):
But that's like many, many moons ago, okay,
many years ago, okay.
It's safe to say, then, thatyou pretty much know your way
around IC design.
Keith Felton, Siemens (18:50):
IC packaging more than IC design.
Francoise von Trapp (18:52):
IC packaging yes, yes, okay.
So we're here at IMAPS, yes,and Siemens is presenting.
Keith Felton, Siemens (18:58):
Yes, we are presenting on Thursday.
Francoise von Trapp (19:01):
What are you going to be presenting on?
Keith Felton, Siemens (19:06):
Talking about using early predictive
analysis during packageprototyping.
So how, during packageprototyping, you can use
analysis tools in a shift leftfashion to actually get better
insight into how your packagemay perform when it's completely
designed.
Francoise von Trapp (19:22):
So is it kind of like a simulation?
Keith Felton, Siemens (19:23):
tool.
First of all, we're showingInnovator 3D IC, which is
actually building the prototypepackage, and then we're using
the Calibre technologies to dothe early predictive analysis.
Francoise von Trapp (19:34):
Okay, and what does that do?
Keith Felton, Siemens (19:36):
So it lets you see how your proposed
package assembly performs from athermal and stress perspective
before you've actuallyphysically designed it.
So you're dealing with what youmight want to call a blueprint
of a package, a digital twinblueprint, and we're using
analysis tools very early tomake sure that whatever
(19:56):
blueprint you choose actually isviable when it is manufactured
so what are the advantages ofthis to the customer?
well, it means they can get alook at how it may function
before they commit to thatparticular type of integration.
A lot of customers today theyput together an integration,
(20:17):
whether it be on paper or usingother EDA tools, and they really
don't know how it's going toperform until they actually do
the full physical implementation.
And then they have to runanalysis tools and then they
find out there's a problem,there's hot spots, it's going to
introduce mechanical stresswhich can cause the interposer
(20:39):
or the substrate to flex, whichcan cause solder ball cracking.
So then they have to gobackwards, they have to do an
ECO to address that problem.
We're trying to prevent youdoing the ECO.
We're trying to let you see howit will perform very early to
avoid a downstream ECO, becausethe further down the process you
go, the more expensive it getsto fix it Exactly okay, so
(21:01):
you're saving money and probablytime and shortening time to
market.
Francoise von Trapp (21:05):
Yes, Right, okay.
So AI is a big topic ofdiscussion here this week.
It's driving the development inthis industry.
Right, Because we're the onesbuilding the AI devices right.
But we're also beginning to useAI to develop AI.
So how is Siemens leveraging AIto help further develop AI
(21:31):
devices?
Keith Felton, Siemens (21:33):
So Siemens has a huge portfolio of
technologies for semiconductorsand packaging.
So there's different areas ofusing AI more than other areas.
For example, our Solidosimulation group are probably
the earliest adopters of AI todrive AI-driven simulation
solutions.
So that's very well established.
You know, in the area where I'mfamiliar with, we're using AI
(21:56):
initially to help the tool makeyou better design decisions.
So what the tool does is itlearns from you, the user, so
the designer is basically thesource of the model.
So it learns from the designer.
How does the designer do design?
And then, as you teach it andyou don't really have to teach
it it learns automatically.
(22:17):
But it understands how you dodesign and then it starts to
offer you different design ideasas you go through the design
process.
So it will offer you differentfunctions and features and
capabilities of the tool, sayingI think this is what you need
to do next.
So that's where we're currentlyfocused.
The next area is using AI andmachine learning, which is just
(22:40):
a part of AI.
You still need that machinemodel, which is just a part of
AI.
You still need that machinemodel.
We're using that to helpoptimize connectivity
optimization between the die,the package, the substrate and
the printed circuit board.
Francoise von Trapp (22:54):
So when you were talking about digital
twins, are digital twins a formof AI?
Keith Felton, Siemens (23:00):
No, a digital twin is just a model.
It's just a model of yourdesign and by having a digital
twin it means you have an exactmodel in software of how the
physical design will look.
So once you have that, you canperform all different types of
analysis.
That analysis could beAI-driven, it could be expert
system-driven, it could just bealgorithmic-driven.
Francoise von Trapp (23:21):
I see Okay, because I think people start to
confuse what is AI, what is adigital twin, when we're talking
about using it in manufacturing.
Keith Felton, Siemens (23:32):
Yes, yeah , I mean the digital twin for
manufacturing.
Typically, manufacturing do notget to see the design until
it's physically built Right, andso then, if they have some
problems, you have to go backand make a change.
With a digital twin, they cansee that design when it hasn't
actually been manufactured, butthey can interrogate the design.
(23:53):
It's like when someone does aholographic image of something
right, it's not real, but I cansee it in minute detail, I can
rotate it, I can interrogate it.
It's like having a 3d pdf fileright, you can touch it, you can
do a lot of thingsate it.
It's like having a 3D PDF fileright, you can touch it, you can
do a lot of things with it, butit's not the real thing, it's
not been made yet, but you canmake a lot of decisions and
trade-offs when you have thatdigital twin model.
Francoise von Trapp (24:15):
So that's different than a simulation.
It's kind of like a simulationon steroids.
Keith Felton, Siemens (24:20):
Well, yeah, it's a simulation of
something that is still virtual.
Okay, it's not real, it's stillvirtual.
It gives you the ability to dothat simulation before it's
actually produced.
Normally, simulations are doneon the real data that's going to
be manufactured, which meansyou're at the end of the process
.
Right, I'm ready to tape out achip.
(24:41):
I've not taped it out yet, butI'm going to do verification and
analysis.
Well, we're letting you do thatbefore you've even taped out.
We're saying with a digitaltwin of your package assembly,
you can now perform detailedverification, whether it's
signal integrity, powerintegrity, thermal stress,
design for test even.
You can do all that at thatstage.
(25:01):
You're never going to be 100%sure it's going to work, because
you're still dealing with avirtual digital twin model.
But you're probably about 90 or95 percent certain that it's
going to work and then you'reokay to tape out so cool.
Francoise von Trapp (25:14):
You know, we've been around long enough to
know that it wasn't always thisway no, you had to tape out do
you think it's more fun for usthan the new generation of you
know students that are coming inand kind of take it for granted
that digital twins exist?
Keith Felton, Siemens (25:27):
um, I think if you're a designer today
that used to do it the old wayis a lot of fun, because you'll
probably find that a it's a lotmore pleasurable to get your job
done.
You're not spending so manyhours at the desk working on
things.
Um, I think for the young,younger engineers coming out,
this is just the way it's goingto be, right the same as when we
started with schematics andthings like that.
(25:49):
They're going to start lifewith a digital twin.
They won't know about beforethe digital twin.
Francoise von Trapp (25:53):
They won't know what an advantage it is to
have a digital twin?
Keith Felton, Siemens (25:56):
No, they won't.
It just takes it for granted.
Okay, well, I'm afraid we'reout of time, oh that's a shame,
but it's always good to talk toyou and to you.
Francoise von Trapp (26:04):
So we will talk to you next time.
Keith Felton, Siemen (26:06):
Absolutely Look forward to it.
Francoise von Trapp (26:07):
Thanks, Keith.
Keith Felton, Siemens (26:08):
Thank you very much.
Francoise von Trapp (26:13):
So my next guest is Vahid Akhavan from
PulseForge, one of our premiummember companies.
Welcome to the podcast, Vahid.
It's great to see you.
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (26:21):
It's great to see you again, francois
.
Thank you for having us.
It's been an exciting time andwe're very excited to be here at
the device packaging conference.
Francoise von Trapp (26:32):
So you're here as an attendee.
We are, you're not exhibitingor presenting this week.
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (26:38):
No, I guess one of the benefits and
the challenges of being a smallcompany is that we have to pick
the best times to attend and thebest times to present and with
us kind of being present at theSan Diego event and IMAPS more
strongly, we kind of try to be asmaller event here at the
(26:59):
Phoenix area.
Francoise von Trapp (26:59):
Okay, so what did you come here to learn,
then?
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (27:03):
So I just came here to learn very
much device packaging, likeeverybody else.
It's an exciting area to be in.
I mean, there's so much goingon, there's so many different
approaches to solving a lot ofthese large challenges that we
have facing us and with yieldchallenges and power dissipation
challenges and integrationchallenges, we need new
(27:26):
solutions and I'm here to learnkind of what's in the offering.
Francoise von Trapp (27:30):
Okay, so that makes me think that
PulseForge isn't just in theadvanced packaging space.
You've been in other marketareas with your technology.
Vahid Akhaven, Pulse (27:38):
Absolutely so.
The photonic debondingtechnology enables clean,
high-yield, reliable release ofpost-process wafers from a
temporary carrier, and that canbe accomplished in a wide range
of different applications forheterogeneous integration
advanced packaging, mems, iot.
(28:00):
The sky's the limit how we canaddress that.
The sky's the limit how we canaddress that.
But advanced packaging doeshold a very specific area of
interest for us, because ourphotonic debonding technology
enables such a clean releasethat the post-processing
necessary for hybrid bonding orfor other types of bonding,
(28:20):
where you need such a clean,pristine surface, really leads
us to use photonic deep bondingto a higher degree in these
fields.
Francoise von Trapp (28:28):
And last year you won a 3D Insights Award
for this, so we talked a littlebit about it back then.
Since then, what's been up?
What's been happening for you?
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (28:37):
So I mean, we were very excited to
have one last year and I thinkit has really given us a lot of
visibility in the field andthat's been an amazing
opportunity.
Since then, we have beenworking internally to advance
the process to increase ourcapability of debonding more
adhesives debonding adhesiveswithin a larger kind of
(29:00):
ecosystem and enabling us towork with different materials
and different architectures.
At the same time, in parallel,we have been working with our
integrators that have beenbringing our technology within
their ecosystems, and we haveworked with a bunch of very
exciting integrators across theglobe that are kind of bringing
(29:24):
our technology within theirfully automated systems to
enable full mass productioncapability to our final
customers.
Francoise von Trapp (29:33):
Okay.
So when I look back since welast spoke, there's been a lot
of activities with 3D Insightsmembers, which I love to see
your members working together.
I see news.
You worked with Indiumpresenting a joint study on
optimizing photonic solderingprocesses.
You worked with Adia.
They're using equipment fromyou for their hybrid bonding.
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (29:58):
That leads to the cleanliness of our
process.
Francoise von Trapp (30:00):
Right and then, most recently, you
partnered with Global Zeus tointroduce a fully automatic
photonic debonder.
Can you update us on that pieceof news and since that's the
most recent and maybe you cantalk about some of the others,
yeah, absolutely so.
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForg (30:15):
Global Zeus is an exciting partner to
work with.
They have a global footprint,they are out of Korea, they have
a significant kind of interestin expanding their temporary
bonding and debondingcapabilities and we're excited
to partner with them.
They're one of the partnersthat are releasing a fully
automatic solution enabled byphotonic debonding, and the
(30:37):
exciting news is they're lookingto place one of their fully
automatic systems on an IDM herein North America within this
year, and that's, I think, isone of the biggest kind of
achievements that we have hadwith that partner.
That being said, we have otherpartners around the globe and
they're all kind of pushing toexpand our foothold, and we
(30:58):
believe that these integrationpartners are really the front
line of how we get into the IDMsand OSATs and really introduce
our technology and give uscredibility to disturb this
market that's very ripe fordisruption.
Francoise von Trapp (31:14):
They are your integration partners and
they provide the tool and you'reproviding the technology.
In what form?
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (31:20):
So we provide the technology, our
flash lamp technology, in a formcalled the embed system, which
is pretty much the flash headwith our power electronics that
enable to drive that.
They provide the materialhandling and the cleaning and
warpage kind of mitigationtechnology necessary to actually
implement this.
And they're the frontlineservice for us for both
(31:43):
installation and training at thecustomer site, but also
enabling us to have a much moreglobal footprint than we have as
a small company.
Francoise von Trapp (31:52):
So are any of your integration partners
actually competitive with eachother?
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (31:56):
There are definitely areas of overlap
between integration partners,but I think we have tried to
keep integration partnersgeographically very dispersed so
that we can make sure that to alarge degree, we are a very
international business here,right?
So each integration partnerknows their market very well so
they are able to address thatmarket very effectively.
(32:19):
And at the same time, we havekept our integration partners to
be very kind of their corecompetencies very dispersed, so
we actually have one of ourintegration partners here, as
shown today.
It's ERS.
Francoise von Trapp (32:31):
ERS.
Yeah, they are also 3D Insightsmembers.
Exactly.
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (32:36):
And they focus on panel level
processes and their corecompetency is in warpage
mitigation and panel level.
And we're very excited to beworking with them because as we
go with larger and larger panels, right as we move away from
wafers, there are challengesthat we just don't know right,
(32:57):
and they have been in this fieldfor a while.
They know that, so they have avery good ability to address
that.
Global Zeus is based out ofKorea.
They have core competencies inspecific areas as well.
We have other partners that dotaping processes so they can
work with either tape adhesiveor de-tape the adhesive
(33:18):
afterwards.
So there's a lot of interestingcapabilities that these
partners bring beyond just beinga tool integrator for us, okay
great Well, enjoy the rest ofthe show and thank you for
stopping by.
Thank you very much, francois,great to see you.
Francoise von Trapp (33:39):
So my next guests are here from our premium
member company, ERS ElectronicGmbH, and I'm speaking with
Bernd Krafthofer and FlorianLechner.
Welcome to the podcast, guys.
Bernd Krafthoefer (33:50):
Thank you.
Thank you for having us.
Francoise von Trapp (33:52):
So before we get in to talk about what
you're doing here at IMAPS thisyear, tell me a little bit about
yourselves and your role at thecompany.
Bernd Krafthoefer (34:00):
I am the sales and marketing director for
yourselves and your role at thecompany.
I am the sales and marketingdirector for the United States,
for the Americas based in Dallas, texas, okay.
Florian Lechner (34:08):
And Florian.
I'm the process engineer.
In Barbing, Germany.
I'm the leader for thecompetence centers.
Francoise von Trapp (34:16):
Okay, so you recently joined ERS, just in
the last year or so.
Florian Lechner (34:22):
Yes, one year ago.
Francoise von Trapp (34:23):
One year ago.
This is our first time meeting,so it's nice to meet you, Bernd
.
We've talked before a coupletimes on the podcast.
Bernd Krafthoefer (34:30):
Yes, we have.
This is the second time.
Francoise von Trapp (34:32):
Second time , Second time yeah, so we're
here at IMAPS DPC and you areexhibiting.
Bernd Krafthoefer (34:37):
Yes, we're at booth 411.
Francoise von Trapp (34:40):
Okay, what are you noticing this year?
That's a little bit differentthan the past.
Bernd Krafthoefer (34:46):
So I hear that more people are here.
It seems like that people likethe location better because it's
closer to where companies areRight.
Francoise von Trapp (35:02):
The last couple of years it was like
45-50 minutes away.
So you have some big newsrecently, florian, that you just
had your grand opening at theCoffin Hood Center in Barbing,
germany.
Florian Lechner (35:11):
Yes.
Francoise von Trapp (35:11):
Can you tell me a little bit about how
that came to pass and why weopened that there?
Florian Lechner (35:18):
Because we wanted to come more in the
machine buildings and we needsome room for showing the
customer the processes.
And we are able.
If a customer has problems, wefind solutions for that and then
we can do it on our ownmachines.
Find solutions for that, andthen we can do it on our own
(35:38):
machines.
Francoise von Trapp (35:40):
So is it a demo center then, where
customers come and try out theirprocesses on your tools?
Florian Lechner (35:46):
Yes.
Bernd Krafthoefer (35:48):
That's what we talked about last year in the
summer, that we have a centerin Asia, in Shanghai.
We're building more in Asia,but we also have now the barbing
site, with a complete team thatworks very, very hard on all
these samples.
We have, as we all know, in theworld things going on.
(36:11):
Not every customer likes toship stuff to China right now,
so we have activitiesspecifically for me, as I'm
based here in the US, and soit's the US and service the US
customers.
We have samples going to Europeand that's very much an
improvement for us that we canoffer that to customers, that it
stays in the European Union.
We also have an opportunity inthe US where we have one of our
(36:34):
machines with a partner company.
Francoise von Trapp (36:36):
Right, okay , all the machines are built in
Germany, correct?
Bernd Krafthoefer (36:41):
Yes.
Francoise von Trapp (36:41):
Are some assembled in Asia?
Bernd Krafthoefer (36:44):
No.
Francoise von Trapp (36:44):
No, so they're all built there and
shipped from there, Correct?
So do you have to comply withany of the restrictions the US
restrictions on China withhaving US content in your tools?
Bernd Krafthoefer (36:59):
No, none of our stuff is in any way, shape
or form, regulated.
We have our controllers, ourpower supplies, our computers.
All that is free, free,available, and we can ship it to
Asia, specifically China.
It's not a problem at thispoint.
Francoise von Trapp (37:16):
So you recently had a webinar, Yara's
Tech Talk.
Stefan Kronert, who is on ouradvisory board, and can you tell
me a little bit about that?
Bernd Krafthoefer (37:27):
Everything is always about spreading the word
right.
I mean, if you don't know thatopportunities are available,
that there's another player inthe market.
So we basically showcase withwhat we're doing, that we have
metrology tools, that we havethe warpage correction tools,
that we have the debondingmachines and, in that context,
(37:49):
our VP, debbie.
She presented all the machinesand then we had Stefan who was
going over more details abouthow the market environment is.
So did Sylvie from CEA andTanja from Fraunhofer Institute.
Francoise von Trapp (38:08):
So they were providing some information
on the research that's happeningin France and Germany, Correct?
And then Stefan was talkingabout activities in Europe,
Because advanced packaging likewe're trying to grow the
advanced packaging ecosystemhere in the US is this also
happening in Europe?
Bernd Krafthoefer (38:28):
It's a desire Because when you look at the
market, when you look 30, 40years ago, a lot of
semiconductor manufacturing wasdone in Europe.
It was developed in Europe, inthe US and, with more and more,
all the O-sets, as we all know,they all went to Asia.
Francoise von Trapp (38:46):
Right.
Bernd Krafthoefer (38:46):
And so they had the expertise there and only
small production lines stayedback in Europe.
Small production lines stayedback in the US for very, very
highly specialized militaryapplications, space applications
, which they did not shipoverseas.
But as we have it in the US,europe has the same desire to
(39:08):
onshore, again onshore and nearshore.
Francoise von Trapp (39:12):
So, Florian , how is business then in the
new facility?
Is it growing?
More and more customers areinterested in the new tools we
have now.
Is it growing?
Florian Lechner (39:19):
More and more customers are interested in the
new tools we have now theLuminex system we will bring on
the market and we are still on agood way to find more and more
customers.
Is the Luminex a panel system.
(39:40):
It's a wafer and panel.
Bernd Krafthoefer (39:41):
Yeah, it can be used for both.
We introduced a long time agoERS as a company was another
German company.
We worked on thermal debondingand that was introduced.
It's in production today.
We still have sold machines.
A lot of people are doing it.
What has grown now is there wasthen a trend of doing laser
(40:05):
debonding.
Francoise von Trapp (40:06):
Right.
Bernd Krafthoefer (40:06):
Laser debonding brings other issues.
It needs more time.
We can have a wafer debonded, a300-millimeter wafer.
Correct me if I said what?
Less than a minute.
Florian Lechner (40:18):
Yes, less than a minute Is this the photonic
debonding.
Francoise von Trapp (40:20):
That's the photonic debonding.
Yes.
Bernd Krafthoefer (40:22):
So you basically think about I mean, I
age myself here.
It's like I still have the oldflash on my camera that you
could hear charging up.
That's basically what it is.
It's a high-intensity flash,Okay, and because it's there,
it's so fast and it covers abigger area, so that's why we
(40:42):
can de-bond it that much better,that's much faster.
Francoise von Trapp (40:47):
Well, it's always a pleasure to talk to you
and to have you on the podcast,so we look forward to seeing
you next at ECTC, ectc in.
Bernd Krafthoefer (40:55):
Dallas, all right, well, we'll see you then.
Francoise von Trapp (40:56):
Okay Sounds good, take right.
Well, we'll see you then.
Bernd Krafthoefer (40:59):
Okay Sounds good.
Florian Lechner (41:00):
Take care.
Thanks guys, thank you, thankyou.
Francoise von Trapp (41:07):
On next week's podcast we'll be talking
about why supply chainresilience matters for the
semiconductor capital equipmentsector and how to get it.
Tune in to learn from BarryO'Dowd of elite member
Cuninoggle and their specialguest Kamal Aluwalia, ceo of
Resolink.
Participation in our memberspotlight podcast is a benefit
of premium and elite membership.
(41:28):
Learn more at 3Dinsightscomslash memberships.
There's lots more to come, sotune in next time to the 3D
Insights podcast.
The 3D Insights podcast is aproduction of 3D Insights LLC.
This episode of the 3D Insights
podcast is sponsored by IMAPS,the premier global association
for microelectronics advancedpackaging enthusiasts.
A membership in IMAPS helpsyour company grow its advanced
packaging workforce throughprofessional education and
networking, advances your brandand supports building
relationships.
Imaps helps you learn, connectand collaborate.
Learn more at imapsorg.
(00:22):
Hi there, I'm Francoise vonTrapp, and this is the 3D
Insights Podcast.
Hi everyone, this week we arerecording live from the IMAPS
(00:45):
Device Packaging Conference 2025in Phoenix, arizona, and we've
invited some of our membercompanies our premium and elite
member companies to join us onthe podcast to share their
perspectives of this year'sevent and update us on some of
their company's activities.
So my first guest is RexAnderson of Micross.
Welcome to the podcast, rex.
Rex Anderson, Micross (01:05):
Thank you , thanks for having me.
Francoise von Trapp (01:07):
So before we dive into a few questions,
can you just explain a littlebit about what Micross AIT is
and your role there?
Rex Anderson, Micross (01:15):
Sure, so we're Micross Advanced
Interconnect Technology and weprovide wafer-level packaging
solutions, for it's anopen-source foundry.
We've been doing that sinceabout the mid-'90s.
Micros as a whole provideshigh-reliability packaging
solutions to folks in the Dib,even consumer electronics
(01:41):
companies as well.
Francoise von Trapp (01:42):
Okay, and your role there.
Rex Anderson, Micross (01:43):
I'm the director of operations there and
also the technology lead forour Cornerstone Reshape Award.
It's enabling us to bring up a300 millimeter line and a TSV
finishing line.
Francoise von Trapp (01:54):
So the 300 millimeter line and TSV
finishing line has just been inthe past couple of years.
Rex Anderson, Micross (01:59):
That's correct.
Francoise von Trapp (02:00):
And you received government funding not
through the CHIPS Act butthrough was it?
The Reshape program?
Rex Anderson, Micross (02:07):
That's right.
It was appropriated money thatwas to address the lack or to
secure up a supply chain andadvanced packaging.
It was pre-CHIPS, if you will.
Francoise von Trapp (02:20):
Yeah, okay, so that money has all been
distributed and you don't haveto worry about not getting it.
Rex Anderson, Micross (02:24):
That's right.
Yeah, okay, so that money hasall been distributed and you
don't have to worry about notgetting it.
That's right.
So we are awarded around $134million.
A little north of $80 millionhas been funded.
Okay, and so that $80 millionincludes two main elements, both
of which we've mentioned.
One is to bring up a300-millimeter bumping line and
the other a TSV finishing lineas well, and then there's other
(02:45):
elements that could be fundedalong the way.
Francoise von Trapp (02:47):
Okay, and when do you find out or receive
the last of that funding?
Is that at all in flux with thechange of administration?
Rex Anderson, Micross (02:55):
It could be.
We've had some very positivemeetings even in the last few
weeks.
But the positive thing is, aswe've executed on this program,
money does become available andthe other elements that we're
talking about, you know they'reincremental to what we're doing.
So you know there's a lot ofopportunities to.
You know, bring on a certainpiece of equipment, or a few
(03:16):
pieces of equipment to reallyenable some other capabilities.
Francoise von Trapp (03:19):
So I think people might be confused
sometimes when they hear aboutfunds being appropriated or
awarded or distributed andthinking that you get this big
chunk of money all at once andit's not how it works right.
You get certain amounts andthen you have to meet certain
criteria to get the next.
Rex Anderson, Micross (03:36):
That's right.
So there's milestones that youhave to meet and then you know,
as you meet those milestones,you're having to show evidence
that you've met those milestones.
There's, you know, frequentreviews by the government,
whether that's remote or inperson, and then as you meet
those milestones, then you'refunded for that.
(03:57):
Okay, and so far you guys are ontarget, we are on target, yeah,
in fact, for the 300-millimeterline all the equipment was
ordered and we're receiving thatequipment right now.
So we anticipate having that300-millimeter line installed
before the end of this year.
Francoise von Trapp (04:12):
Okay, and another recent piece of news is
that you've acquired Integra Now.
Integra was an independent OSATbased in Kansas, right?
Rex Anderson, Micross (04:24):
Kansas and California, that's right.
Francoise von Trapp (04:29):
And are you acquiring the whole company?
Rex Anderson, Micross (04:31):
Yes, absolutely so.
You know that's a keyacquisition.
You know our group, which isheadquartered in Melville, new
York, headed by Vince Buffa,he's really made some strategic
acquisitions over the years andreally grown Micros to provide
(04:55):
kind of a full suite and fullsolution for the high
reliability market and Integrais just the latest of that
market.
And Integra is just the latestof that.
You know there's a lot ofsynergies between what they do
and what we had some existingcapabilities within Micros but
they also bring morecapabilities in the back end and
(05:16):
packaging that we necessarilydidn't have.
They fulfill that and it reallysolidifies Micros as the
domestic OSAT here in the UnitedStates.
Francoise von Trapp (05:26):
That's excellent.
Rex Anderson, Micross (05:27):
Yeah, I can say too that you know
Integra.
We've worked with them in thepast, so in a lot of ways they
were a competitor before thisbut they were also a customer
too.
Bringing them on board willtake down a few extra barriers
that maybe had been there in thepast, and that only benefits
our customer base.
Francoise von Trapp (05:47):
As part of the acquisition, you get their
facilities and their staff right, Absolutely yeah.
So now you've expanded, microsshas a facility in North
Carolina, but also in Florida,right?
Rex Anderson, Micross (05:58):
We have quite a few sites around the
world.
So for this conference thesites that are most important is
the North Carolina facilitywhere we do wafer level
interconnect.
We have wafer probe and test inCalifornia at STS.
So if you think about ourcustomer base, wafers coming out
of the foundry can get probedat STS in California, come to us
(06:21):
for wafer level interconnectand then go down to Apopka yes,
in California Come to us forwafer-level interconnect and
then go down to Apopka, florida,to get diced and assembled down
there.
So a full turnkey solutionpost-foundry.
And Integra is adding to thatbecause they have test
capability, they have theback-end capability as well.
Francoise von Trapp (06:37):
Okay, well, that's excellent.
So are you all consolidatedaround the world or around the
country?
Rex Anderson, Micross (06:41):
Around the world and country.
So we have, you know, a site upin Manchester that does
component modification.
Francoise von Trapp (06:47):
UK, manchester, uk or Manchester,
new Hampshire, new Hampshire,yes, new Hampshire, okay.
Rex Anderson, Micross (06:52):
So we do have a couple of sites in the UK
as well that do similar thingsthat Apopka and Manchester does.
We even, you know, have a diodecompany that we purchased down
in Reynosa, mexico, and we havecounterfeit mitigation in
Clearwater.
So we have quite a few diversesites that provide a really full
(07:14):
card of applications andsolutions for our customer base.
Francoise von Trapp (07:18):
Okay, and so this makes you the largest
OSOT in North America.
Rex Anderson, Micross (07:22):
I think that's safe to say right now,
until Amcor and TSMC.
Francoise von Trapp (07:28):
Well, hold on to it while you have it,
that's right.
Rex Anderson, Micross (07:30):
We'll take it.
Francoise von Trapp (07:33):
All right.
So where can people go to learnmore?
Rex Anderson, Micross (07:35):
Well, you can go to mycrosscom.
You can find me on LinkedIn,you can email me if you'd like.
Rexanderson at mycrosscom.
So I'd love to talk to you moreabout it.
Francoise von Trapp (07:45):
Okay, well, we'll put that in the show
notes.
Rex Anderson, Micross (07:47):
Thank you so much.
Francoise von Trapp (07:47):
Thanks again for joining me, okay.
Okay, my next guest is from ourelite member, asc.
I'm speaking with Calvin Chung.
Welcome to the podcast, calvin.
Thank you, it's great to haveyou here.
Can you, before we dive in,explain a little bit about your
role at ASC?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (08:09):
I joined ASC 20 years ago, okay, and I'm a
VP of Engineering and BusinessDevelopment, so I'm involved in
most of the ASC technologydevelopment and I think the last
few years, the most recentyears, I've been focused on
silicon electronics, powerintegrations and AI with the
(08:33):
large infrastructures, meaningdata center guys and networking
guys.
Francoise von Trapp (08:39):
So your job is to really keep your finger
on the heartbeat, what's goingon, and decide what's the next
thing that ASC needs to develop.
Calvin Cheung, ASE (08:47):
Part of it and also we are working directly
with some of our key customersto develop and understand that
technology.
Francoise von Trapp (08:55):
Okay Now, ai has been a very big topic for
the last few years.
I would say Every time we go toan event, there's a lot of
discussion about how AI isdriving the industry, and AI is
the reason heterogeneousintegration and advanced
packaging is finally taking off.
So what are you thinking aresome of the most critical issues
(09:16):
surrounding AI at the moment?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (09:21):
I think the infrastructure, right
Infrastructure we're talkingabout a chip, silicon designs
and also all the hardware andthe backend support for AI.
So we typically call frontendand backends, and the frontend
(09:41):
meaning the chip, designs andalso function.
The backend we call people likeASC, the OSETs.
Francoise von Trapp (09:48):
Right, okay , so it's been really driving
advanced packaging.
What are the benefits ofadvanced packaging to AI modules
?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (09:57):
I think advanced packaging more and more
becomes an enabler for AI.
I mean, you know silicon comesout.
We're talking about highbandwidth and high speed and if
strictly rely on silicon itwould be very expensive.
But package plays a major roleto reduce costs and also enhance
(10:20):
the AI performance andinfrastructures.
Francoise von Trapp (10:24):
So one of the things that I've been
hearing a lot about latelythat's been very concerning is
the amount of energy that AIconsumes.
Can advanced packaging helpwith that?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (10:35):
Definitely.
I think part of the packageinfrastructure can help is in
terms of power delivery.
I think we're working on a lotof the latest technology that's
doing so-called vertical powerdelivery the beginning of the
power delivery and all the wayto the chip.
And using vertical powerdelivery you can save anywhere
(10:58):
up to 40% to 60% of the power.
Francoise von Trapp (11:02):
So do you remember last year at ECTC,
where they were talking aboutusing silicon photonics, and I
know that's one of your areas?
How can silicon photonics helpreduce the energy needs?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (11:18):
I think one of the key features for silicon
photonics is using optics topush in data.
So the the major characteristicfor optic is low energy, high
speeds.
There's a difference betweenpushing the optical data and the
electronic using copper.
Right, so pushing copper itrequires a lot more power and
(11:41):
energy.
Keith Felton, Siemens (11:42):
Why is that?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (11:44):
Well, copper is a physical entity, right?
Just compare light andelectrons.
So photons are running muchfaster than electrons through a
medium like copper.
Francoise von Trapp (12:00):
So it's probably a lot less loss.
Is it heat or energy losssignal.
Calvin Cheung, ASE (12:07):
Well, it's signal integrity right.
Francoise von Trapp (12:10):
Right.
Calvin Cheung, ASE (12:12):
When you talk about heat and also energy
consumption, you're pushingcopper and you cannot push at
long distance, because if you'repushing at long distance, the
signal integrity will decrease,whereas compared to photonics,
the signal could travel a lotmore and a lot faster.
(12:33):
So the signal integrityperspective is much cleaner and
more effective and efficientcompared to copper.
Francoise von Trapp (12:42):
How close are we to implementing silicon
photonics in the advancedpackaging space?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (12:47):
We are implementing it.
I think there's a lot of talkabout, you know, we are building
parkable transceivers for thedata centers.
You know data going in and outand we're using silicon
photonics for the interconnects.
And you also heard a lot aboutCPOs and that's the next stage
(13:09):
or milestone, that we're goingto push for Silicon Photonics.
Francoise von Trapp (13:15):
What industries are we likely to see
AI adopted in most?
I mean, you're talking aboutdata centers.
There's also edge AI.
Calvin Cheung, ASE (13:24):
I think the AI application is so broad,
right, it's almost cost everyindustrial or consumer market
segment.
The most exciting AI is in themedical field.
You know, case in point, right,when you're taking a CT scan,
(13:46):
there's a lot of data behind allthe CT scan data, but with AI
you can analyze it much closerand able to pinpoint exactly
what type of a tumor or whatkind of a disease, instead of
putting a patient on a table andcut it up.
(14:07):
So, I think that's somethingthat's most intriguing.
Just imagine, right, it's veryclose to home.
So you have something, you havean ailment or tumor inside your
body.
You don't need to cut it up.
But AI could be able to analyzea lot of the so-called back-end
data and tell you whetherthat's a good tumor or a
(14:28):
malignant or a benign tumor,Right, right, and that alone is
so significant.
Francoise von Trapp (14:34):
It's important information, you don't
have to remove it if it's notmalignant right.
Speaking of another medicalapplication, for instance
vaccine development.
How quickly we got a COVIDvaccine was because of using AI
right.
Calvin Cheung, ASE (14:52):
One of the key characteristics for AI is
being able to analyze so muchdata.
We have a lot of data butbecause of the computation power
, we're not able to analyze allthe data and try to tell which
one is which.
But with AI, with so much datain the background, we could
extract a lot of information andmake judgments.
Francoise von Trapp (15:16):
How about using AI this is my meta
question using AI to build AIdevices, ai in semiconductor
manufacturing have we startedimplementing it there yet?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (15:28):
Oh, absolutely.
I think one of the keys isusing AI to do defect
inspections.
You know when you do an RDL ora trace right, so a lot of times
you're building so many layerson top but you want to make sure
every single layer has goodconductivity.
(15:49):
So how do you do it?
In the past, we're usingoptical inspection to inspect to
try to find the defects, butwith AI we could detect and fix
the defects in upstream, insteadof wait till the whole part are
coming out.
At the end it says whoop, itdoesn't work.
So that is very, verysignificant in terms of
(16:11):
infection cause and also defectprevention.
Francoise von Trapp (16:15):
Now you and I have been around this
industry for a little while andwe remember before AI could be
used in a lot of things.
I mean before they were evendeveloping AI.
Are you finding that, withengineers that have developed
processes and ways of doingthings, are they excited about
being able to implement AI, oris it something new that they
(16:36):
have to learn and is it becominga little?
Is it a little bit more of achallenge?
Calvin Cheung, ASE (16:40):
AI has a lot to do with how you use AI right
so the hardware part is theinference and also how you
program it.
We call it an algorithm.
So you need to have bothhardware knowledge and also some
software knowledge.
So as an engineer you want tolearn both and the end result
(17:04):
will make you very satisfiedwith what you do.
You write a program and you useAI, using the hardware, to
accomplish defect analysis.
That alone is quite asatisfaction.
Francoise von Trapp (17:21):
So engineers still get excited
about new technologies, even ifyou've been in the industry for
a while.
Calvin Cheung, ASE (17:29):
Oh, I'm always telling people that I'm
having so much fun and peoplelook at me funny.
I say what do you mean fun?
You have to tackle so muchtechnical issues, but the new
things and new technology,that's what I mean by exciting.
That's where the fun comingfrom.
It's fun in a sense that it'sexcitement, it's accomplishment.
Francoise von Trapp (17:54):
Well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate your time.
Calvin Cheung, ASE (17:57):
Sure sure.
Francoise von Trapp (18:04):
So I'm here with Keith Felton from Siemens
Digital Industries Software.
Welcome to the podcast, Keith.
Keith Felton, Siemens (18:10):
Thank you , francoise, glad to be here.
Francoise von Trapp (18:12):
So we know you've been on the podcast
before, but for people who maynot have heard, can you tell a
little bit about yourself, yourbackground and your role at
Siemens?
Keith Felton, Siemens (18:21):
Okay, so I am the Principal Technical
product manager for the SiemensIC packaging solutions.
I've been with Siemens for justover eight years, and before
that I was with Cadence for 18years, and before that I worked
for an EDA company called RaycalRedac.
Francoise von Trapp (18:43):
But that's like many, many moons ago, okay,
many years ago, okay.
It's safe to say, then, thatyou pretty much know your way
around IC design.
Keith Felton, Siemens (18:50):
IC packaging more than IC design.
Francoise von Trapp (18:52):
IC packaging yes, yes, okay.
So we're here at IMAPS, yes,and Siemens is presenting.
Keith Felton, Siemens (18:58):
Yes, we are presenting on Thursday.
Francoise von Trapp (19:01):
What are you going to be presenting on?
Keith Felton, Siemens (19:06):
Talking about using early predictive
analysis during packageprototyping.
So how, during packageprototyping, you can use
analysis tools in a shift leftfashion to actually get better
insight into how your packagemay perform when it's completely
designed.
Francoise von Trapp (19:22):
So is it kind of like a simulation?
Keith Felton, Siemens (19:23):
tool.
First of all, we're showingInnovator 3D IC, which is
actually building the prototypepackage, and then we're using
the Calibre technologies to dothe early predictive analysis.
Francoise von Trapp (19:34):
Okay, and what does that do?
Keith Felton, Siemens (19:36):
So it lets you see how your proposed
package assembly performs from athermal and stress perspective
before you've actuallyphysically designed it.
So you're dealing with what youmight want to call a blueprint
of a package, a digital twinblueprint, and we're using
analysis tools very early tomake sure that whatever
(19:56):
blueprint you choose actually isviable when it is manufactured
so what are the advantages ofthis to the customer?
well, it means they can get alook at how it may function
before they commit to thatparticular type of integration.
A lot of customers today theyput together an integration,
(20:17):
whether it be on paper or usingother EDA tools, and they really
don't know how it's going toperform until they actually do
the full physical implementation.
And then they have to runanalysis tools and then they
find out there's a problem,there's hot spots, it's going to
introduce mechanical stresswhich can cause the interposer
(20:39):
or the substrate to flex, whichcan cause solder ball cracking.
So then they have to gobackwards, they have to do an
ECO to address that problem.
We're trying to prevent youdoing the ECO.
We're trying to let you see howit will perform very early to
avoid a downstream ECO, becausethe further down the process you
go, the more expensive it getsto fix it Exactly okay, so
(21:01):
you're saving money and probablytime and shortening time to
market.
Francoise von Trapp (21:05):
Yes, Right, okay.
So AI is a big topic ofdiscussion here this week.
It's driving the development inthis industry.
Right, Because we're the onesbuilding the AI devices right.
But we're also beginning to useAI to develop AI.
So how is Siemens leveraging AIto help further develop AI
(21:31):
devices?
Keith Felton, Siemens (21:33):
So Siemens has a huge portfolio of
technologies for semiconductorsand packaging.
So there's different areas ofusing AI more than other areas.
For example, our Solidosimulation group are probably
the earliest adopters of AI todrive AI-driven simulation
solutions.
So that's very well established.
You know, in the area where I'mfamiliar with, we're using AI
(21:56):
initially to help the tool makeyou better design decisions.
So what the tool does is itlearns from you, the user, so
the designer is basically thesource of the model.
So it learns from the designer.
How does the designer do design?
And then, as you teach it andyou don't really have to teach
it it learns automatically.
(22:17):
But it understands how you dodesign and then it starts to
offer you different design ideasas you go through the design
process.
So it will offer you differentfunctions and features and
capabilities of the tool, sayingI think this is what you need
to do next.
So that's where we're currentlyfocused.
The next area is using AI andmachine learning, which is just
(22:40):
a part of AI.
You still need that machinemodel, which is just a part of
AI.
You still need that machinemodel.
We're using that to helpoptimize connectivity
optimization between the die,the package, the substrate and
the printed circuit board.
Francoise von Trapp (22:54):
So when you were talking about digital
twins, are digital twins a formof AI?
Keith Felton, Siemens (23:00):
No, a digital twin is just a model.
It's just a model of yourdesign and by having a digital
twin it means you have an exactmodel in software of how the
physical design will look.
So once you have that, you canperform all different types of
analysis.
That analysis could beAI-driven, it could be expert
system-driven, it could just bealgorithmic-driven.
Francoise von Trapp (23:21):
I see Okay, because I think people start to
confuse what is AI, what is adigital twin, when we're talking
about using it in manufacturing.
Keith Felton, Siemens (23:32):
Yes, yeah , I mean the digital twin for
manufacturing.
Typically, manufacturing do notget to see the design until
it's physically built Right, andso then, if they have some
problems, you have to go backand make a change.
With a digital twin, they cansee that design when it hasn't
actually been manufactured, butthey can interrogate the design.
(23:53):
It's like when someone does aholographic image of something
right, it's not real, but I cansee it in minute detail, I can
rotate it, I can interrogate it.
It's like having a 3d pdf fileright, you can touch it, you can
do a lot of thingsate it.
It's like having a 3D PDF fileright, you can touch it, you can
do a lot of things with it, butit's not the real thing, it's
not been made yet, but you canmake a lot of decisions and
trade-offs when you have thatdigital twin model.
Francoise von Trapp (24:15):
So that's different than a simulation.
It's kind of like a simulationon steroids.
Keith Felton, Siemens (24:20):
Well, yeah, it's a simulation of
something that is still virtual.
Okay, it's not real, it's stillvirtual.
It gives you the ability to dothat simulation before it's
actually produced.
Normally, simulations are doneon the real data that's going to
be manufactured, which meansyou're at the end of the process
.
Right, I'm ready to tape out achip.
(24:41):
I've not taped it out yet, butI'm going to do verification and
analysis.
Well, we're letting you do thatbefore you've even taped out.
We're saying with a digitaltwin of your package assembly,
you can now perform detailedverification, whether it's
signal integrity, powerintegrity, thermal stress,
design for test even.
You can do all that at thatstage.
(25:01):
You're never going to be 100%sure it's going to work, because
you're still dealing with avirtual digital twin model.
But you're probably about 90 or95 percent certain that it's
going to work and then you'reokay to tape out so cool.
Francoise von Trapp (25:14):
You know, we've been around long enough to
know that it wasn't always thisway no, you had to tape out do
you think it's more fun for usthan the new generation of you
know students that are coming inand kind of take it for granted
that digital twins exist?
Keith Felton, Siemens (25:27):
um, I think if you're a designer today
that used to do it the old wayis a lot of fun, because you'll
probably find that a it's a lotmore pleasurable to get your job
done.
You're not spending so manyhours at the desk working on
things.
Um, I think for the young,younger engineers coming out,
this is just the way it's goingto be, right the same as when we
started with schematics andthings like that.
(25:49):
They're going to start lifewith a digital twin.
They won't know about beforethe digital twin.
Francoise von Trapp (25:53):
They won't know what an advantage it is to
have a digital twin?
Keith Felton, Siemens (25:56):
No, they won't.
It just takes it for granted.
Okay, well, I'm afraid we'reout of time, oh that's a shame,
but it's always good to talk toyou and to you.
Francoise von Trapp (26:04):
So we will talk to you next time.
Keith Felton, Siemen (26:06):
Absolutely Look forward to it.
Francoise von Trapp (26:07):
Thanks, Keith.
Keith Felton, Siemens (26:08):
Thank you very much.
Francoise von Trapp (26:13):
So my next guest is Vahid Akhavan from
PulseForge, one of our premiummember companies.
Welcome to the podcast, Vahid.
It's great to see you.
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (26:21):
It's great to see you again, francois
.
Thank you for having us.
It's been an exciting time andwe're very excited to be here at
the device packaging conference.
Francoise von Trapp (26:32):
So you're here as an attendee.
We are, you're not exhibitingor presenting this week.
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (26:38):
No, I guess one of the benefits and
the challenges of being a smallcompany is that we have to pick
the best times to attend and thebest times to present and with
us kind of being present at theSan Diego event and IMAPS more
strongly, we kind of try to be asmaller event here at the
(26:59):
Phoenix area.
Francoise von Trapp (26:59):
Okay, so what did you come here to learn,
then?
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (27:03):
So I just came here to learn very
much device packaging, likeeverybody else.
It's an exciting area to be in.
I mean, there's so much goingon, there's so many different
approaches to solving a lot ofthese large challenges that we
have facing us and with yieldchallenges and power dissipation
challenges and integrationchallenges, we need new
(27:26):
solutions and I'm here to learnkind of what's in the offering.
Francoise von Trapp (27:30):
Okay, so that makes me think that
PulseForge isn't just in theadvanced packaging space.
You've been in other marketareas with your technology.
Vahid Akhaven, Pulse (27:38):
Absolutely so.
The photonic debondingtechnology enables clean,
high-yield, reliable release ofpost-process wafers from a
temporary carrier, and that canbe accomplished in a wide range
of different applications forheterogeneous integration
advanced packaging, mems, iot.
(28:00):
The sky's the limit how we canaddress that.
The sky's the limit how we canaddress that.
But advanced packaging doeshold a very specific area of
interest for us, because ourphotonic debonding technology
enables such a clean releasethat the post-processing
necessary for hybrid bonding orfor other types of bonding,
(28:20):
where you need such a clean,pristine surface, really leads
us to use photonic deep bondingto a higher degree in these
fields.
Francoise von Trapp (28:28):
And last year you won a 3D Insights Award
for this, so we talked a littlebit about it back then.
Since then, what's been up?
What's been happening for you?
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (28:37):
So I mean, we were very excited to
have one last year and I thinkit has really given us a lot of
visibility in the field andthat's been an amazing
opportunity.
Since then, we have beenworking internally to advance
the process to increase ourcapability of debonding more
adhesives debonding adhesiveswithin a larger kind of
(29:00):
ecosystem and enabling us towork with different materials
and different architectures.
At the same time, in parallel,we have been working with our
integrators that have beenbringing our technology within
their ecosystems, and we haveworked with a bunch of very
exciting integrators across theglobe that are kind of bringing
(29:24):
our technology within theirfully automated systems to
enable full mass productioncapability to our final
customers.
Francoise von Trapp (29:33):
Okay.
So when I look back since welast spoke, there's been a lot
of activities with 3D Insightsmembers, which I love to see
your members working together.
I see news.
You worked with Indiumpresenting a joint study on
optimizing photonic solderingprocesses.
You worked with Adia.
They're using equipment fromyou for their hybrid bonding.
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (29:58):
That leads to the cleanliness of our
process.
Francoise von Trapp (30:00):
Right and then, most recently, you
partnered with Global Zeus tointroduce a fully automatic
photonic debonder.
Can you update us on that pieceof news and since that's the
most recent and maybe you cantalk about some of the others,
yeah, absolutely so.
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForg (30:15):
Global Zeus is an exciting partner to
work with.
They have a global footprint,they are out of Korea, they have
a significant kind of interestin expanding their temporary
bonding and debondingcapabilities and we're excited
to partner with them.
They're one of the partnersthat are releasing a fully
automatic solution enabled byphotonic debonding, and the
(30:37):
exciting news is they're lookingto place one of their fully
automatic systems on an IDM herein North America within this
year, and that's, I think, isone of the biggest kind of
achievements that we have hadwith that partner.
That being said, we have otherpartners around the globe and
they're all kind of pushing toexpand our foothold, and we
(30:58):
believe that these integrationpartners are really the front
line of how we get into the IDMsand OSATs and really introduce
our technology and give uscredibility to disturb this
market that's very ripe fordisruption.
Francoise von Trapp (31:14):
They are your integration partners and
they provide the tool and you'reproviding the technology.
In what form?
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (31:20):
So we provide the technology, our
flash lamp technology, in a formcalled the embed system, which
is pretty much the flash headwith our power electronics that
enable to drive that.
They provide the materialhandling and the cleaning and
warpage kind of mitigationtechnology necessary to actually
implement this.
And they're the frontlineservice for us for both
(31:43):
installation and training at thecustomer site, but also
enabling us to have a much moreglobal footprint than we have as
a small company.
Francoise von Trapp (31:52):
So are any of your integration partners
actually competitive with eachother?
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (31:56):
There are definitely areas of overlap
between integration partners,but I think we have tried to
keep integration partnersgeographically very dispersed so
that we can make sure that to alarge degree, we are a very
international business here,right?
So each integration partnerknows their market very well so
they are able to address thatmarket very effectively.
(32:19):
And at the same time, we havekept our integration partners to
be very kind of their corecompetencies very dispersed, so
we actually have one of ourintegration partners here, as
shown today.
It's ERS.
Francoise von Trapp (32:31):
ERS.
Yeah, they are also 3D Insightsmembers.
Exactly.
Vahid Akhaven, PulseForge (32:36):
And they focus on panel level
processes and their corecompetency is in warpage
mitigation and panel level.
And we're very excited to beworking with them because as we
go with larger and larger panels, right as we move away from
wafers, there are challengesthat we just don't know right,
(32:57):
and they have been in this fieldfor a while.
They know that, so they have avery good ability to address
that.
Global Zeus is based out ofKorea.
They have core competencies inspecific areas as well.
We have other partners that dotaping processes so they can
work with either tape adhesiveor de-tape the adhesive
(33:18):
afterwards.
So there's a lot of interestingcapabilities that these
partners bring beyond just beinga tool integrator for us, okay
great Well, enjoy the rest ofthe show and thank you for
stopping by.
Thank you very much, francois,great to see you.
Francoise von Trapp (33:39):
So my next guests are here from our premium
member company, ERS ElectronicGmbH, and I'm speaking with
Bernd Krafthofer and FlorianLechner.
Welcome to the podcast, guys.
Bernd Krafthoefer (33:50):
Thank you.
Thank you for having us.
Francoise von Trapp (33:52):
So before we get in to talk about what
you're doing here at IMAPS thisyear, tell me a little bit about
yourselves and your role at thecompany.
Bernd Krafthoefer (34:00):
I am the sales and marketing director for
yourselves and your role at thecompany.
I am the sales and marketingdirector for the United States,
for the Americas based in Dallas, texas, okay.
Florian Lechner (34:08):
And Florian.
I'm the process engineer.
In Barbing, Germany.
I'm the leader for thecompetence centers.
Francoise von Trapp (34:16):
Okay, so you recently joined ERS, just in
the last year or so.
Florian Lechner (34:22):
Yes, one year ago.
Francoise von Trapp (34:23):
One year ago.
This is our first time meeting,so it's nice to meet you, Bernd
.
We've talked before a coupletimes on the podcast.
Bernd Krafthoefer (34:30):
Yes, we have.
This is the second time.
Francoise von Trapp (34:32):
Second time , Second time yeah, so we're
here at IMAPS DPC and you areexhibiting.
Bernd Krafthoefer (34:37):
Yes, we're at booth 411.
Francoise von Trapp (34:40):
Okay, what are you noticing this year?
That's a little bit differentthan the past.
Bernd Krafthoefer (34:46):
So I hear that more people are here.
It seems like that people likethe location better because it's
closer to where companies areRight.
Francoise von Trapp (35:02):
The last couple of years it was like
45-50 minutes away.
So you have some big newsrecently, florian, that you just
had your grand opening at theCoffin Hood Center in Barbing,
germany.
Florian Lechner (35:11):
Yes.
Francoise von Trapp (35:11):
Can you tell me a little bit about how
that came to pass and why weopened that there?
Florian Lechner (35:18):
Because we wanted to come more in the
machine buildings and we needsome room for showing the
customer the processes.
And we are able.
If a customer has problems, wefind solutions for that and then
we can do it on our ownmachines.
Find solutions for that, andthen we can do it on our own
(35:38):
machines.
Francoise von Trapp (35:40):
So is it a demo center then, where
customers come and try out theirprocesses on your tools?
Florian Lechner (35:46):
Yes.
Bernd Krafthoefer (35:48):
That's what we talked about last year in the
summer, that we have a centerin Asia, in Shanghai.
We're building more in Asia,but we also have now the barbing
site, with a complete team thatworks very, very hard on all
these samples.
We have, as we all know, in theworld things going on.
(36:11):
Not every customer likes toship stuff to China right now,
so we have activitiesspecifically for me, as I'm
based here in the US, and soit's the US and service the US
customers.
We have samples going to Europeand that's very much an
improvement for us that we canoffer that to customers, that it
stays in the European Union.
We also have an opportunity inthe US where we have one of our
(36:34):
machines with a partner company.
Francoise von Trapp (36:36):
Right, okay , all the machines are built in
Germany, correct?
Bernd Krafthoefer (36:41):
Yes.
Francoise von Trapp (36:41):
Are some assembled in Asia?
Bernd Krafthoefer (36:44):
No.
Francoise von Trapp (36:44):
No, so they're all built there and
shipped from there, Correct?
So do you have to comply withany of the restrictions the US
restrictions on China withhaving US content in your tools?
Bernd Krafthoefer (36:59):
No, none of our stuff is in any way, shape
or form, regulated.
We have our controllers, ourpower supplies, our computers.
All that is free, free,available, and we can ship it to
Asia, specifically China.
It's not a problem at thispoint.
Francoise von Trapp (37:16):
So you recently had a webinar, Yara's
Tech Talk.
Stefan Kronert, who is on ouradvisory board, and can you tell
me a little bit about that?
Bernd Krafthoefer (37:27):
Everything is always about spreading the word
right.
I mean, if you don't know thatopportunities are available,
that there's another player inthe market.
So we basically showcase withwhat we're doing, that we have
metrology tools, that we havethe warpage correction tools,
that we have the debondingmachines and, in that context,
(37:49):
our VP, debbie.
She presented all the machinesand then we had Stefan who was
going over more details abouthow the market environment is.
So did Sylvie from CEA andTanja from Fraunhofer Institute.
Francoise von Trapp (38:08):
So they were providing some information
on the research that's happeningin France and Germany, Correct?
And then Stefan was talkingabout activities in Europe,
Because advanced packaging likewe're trying to grow the
advanced packaging ecosystemhere in the US is this also
happening in Europe?
Bernd Krafthoefer (38:28):
It's a desire Because when you look at the
market, when you look 30, 40years ago, a lot of
semiconductor manufacturing wasdone in Europe.
It was developed in Europe, inthe US and, with more and more,
all the O-sets, as we all know,they all went to Asia.
Francoise von Trapp (38:46):
Right.
Bernd Krafthoefer (38:46):
And so they had the expertise there and only
small production lines stayedback in Europe.
Small production lines stayedback in the US for very, very
highly specialized militaryapplications, space applications
, which they did not shipoverseas.
But as we have it in the US,europe has the same desire to
(39:08):
onshore, again onshore and nearshore.
Francoise von Trapp (39:12):
So, Florian , how is business then in the
new facility?
Is it growing?
More and more customers areinterested in the new tools we
have now.
Is it growing?
Florian Lechner (39:19):
More and more customers are interested in the
new tools we have now theLuminex system we will bring on
the market and we are still on agood way to find more and more
customers.
Is the Luminex a panel system.
(39:40):
It's a wafer and panel.
Bernd Krafthoefer (39:41):
Yeah, it can be used for both.
We introduced a long time agoERS as a company was another
German company.
We worked on thermal debondingand that was introduced.
It's in production today.
We still have sold machines.
A lot of people are doing it.
What has grown now is there wasthen a trend of doing laser
(40:05):
debonding.
Francoise von Trapp (40:06):
Right.
Bernd Krafthoefer (40:06):
Laser debonding brings other issues.
It needs more time.
We can have a wafer debonded, a300-millimeter wafer.
Correct me if I said what?
Less than a minute.
Florian Lechner (40:18):
Yes, less than a minute Is this the photonic
debonding.
Francoise von Trapp (40:20):
That's the photonic debonding.
Yes.
Bernd Krafthoefer (40:22):
So you basically think about I mean, I
age myself here.
It's like I still have the oldflash on my camera that you
could hear charging up.
That's basically what it is.
It's a high-intensity flash,Okay, and because it's there,
it's so fast and it covers abigger area, so that's why we
(40:42):
can de-bond it that much better,that's much faster.
Francoise von Trapp (40:47):
Well, it's always a pleasure to talk to you
and to have you on the podcast,so we look forward to seeing
you next at ECTC, ectc in.
Bernd Krafthoefer (40:55):
Dallas, all right, well, we'll see you then.
Francoise von Trapp (40:56):
Okay Sounds good, take right.
Well, we'll see you then.
Bernd Krafthoefer (40:59):
Okay Sounds good.
Florian Lechner (41:00):
Take care.
Thanks guys, thank you, thankyou.
Francoise von Trapp (41:07):
On next week's podcast we'll be talking
about why supply chainresilience matters for the
semiconductor capital equipmentsector and how to get it.
Tune in to learn from BarryO'Dowd of elite member
Cuninoggle and their specialguest Kamal Aluwalia, ceo of
Resolink.
Participation in our memberspotlight podcast is a benefit
of premium and elite membership.
(41:28):
Learn more at 3Dinsightscomslash memberships.
There's lots more to come, sotune in next time to the 3D
Insights podcast.
The 3D Insights podcast is aproduction of 3D Insights LLC.
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