December 19, 2024 • 33 mins
Unlock the secrets of semiconductor packaging materials with insights from industry experts Dariush Tari and Rose Guino of Henkel's Semiconductor Packaging Materials Division. This episode promises a deep dive into the processes behind developing materials that are both reliable and high-performing, crucial for the ever-evolving demands of AI, machine learning, and quantum technologies.
Dariush and Rose share their wealth of knowledge on material characterization, modeling, and application engineering, and discuss how Henkel maintains its pivotal role within the semiconductor ecosystem. From underfills to thermal interface materials, discover how comprehensive material offerings are shaping the future of high-performance computing.
Explore the fascinating advancements in material modeling for semiconductors, where physics-based simulations are transforming reliability testing and development cycles.
Gain a clearer understanding of capillary underfill materials and their vital role in enhancing solder joint reliability under thermal stress.
This episode delves into the collaboration between material developers and modeling experts, underscoring the importance of early customer engagement to tailor innovative solutions.
If you are interested in learning how cutting-edge materials are propelling the semiconductor industry forward, this conversation is a must-listen.
Contact the Speakers on LinkedIn
Dariush Tari, Henkel Semiconductor Packaging Materials
Rose Guino, Semiconductor Packaging Materials
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Henkel Semiconductor Packaging MaterialsHenke's advanced materials elevate semiconductor packaging to meet power, performance, area and cost
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Francoise von Trapp (00:01):
This episode of the 3D InCites
podcast is brought to you byHenkel, a global materials
innovator for industrial andconsumer businesses In the
electronics sector.
Henkel is renowned for itssemiconductor solutions for wire
bond and advanced packagingapplications, consumer device
assembly ingenuity andleading-edge thermal management
materials.
Founded in 1876, the companyemploys about 48,000 people
(00:24):
worldwide and has a longtradition of sustainability
leadership.
Discover more at Henkel.
com.
Hi there, I'm Francoise vonTrapp, and this is the 3D
InCites Podcast.
(00:48):
Hi everyone, have you everthought about what goes into
developing novel materials foryour advanced packaging
processes?
You know, much of the sameconsideration that goes into the
design of packages themselvesalso goes into materials
development.
So in this episode we'respeaking with Dariush Tari and
Rose Guino, who are subjectmatter experts at Henkel's
(01:10):
Semiconductor PackagingMaterials Division, and they're
going to tell us how theyapproach the process by looking
specifically at capillaryunderfill development, and we're
going to learn how they'redeveloping new methods to
address new challenges anddevelopment of these important
materials as semiconductorpackaging evolves.
So welcome to the podcast!.
Dariush Tari (01:29):
Thank you.
Rose Guino (01:30):
Hello.
Francoise von Trapp (01:32):
So it's so great to have you both on here
Before we dive in.
Can you each share a little bitabout your background and your
specific roles at Henkel Dariush, why don't you start?
Dariush Tari (01:45):
Yes, hello everyone.
My name is Dariush Tari.
I'm a modeling manager incentral R&D team.
I've been with Henkel for thepast five years.
I have a PhD in solid mechanicsfrom University of Waterloo in
Canada.
My expertise are materialcharacterization, material
modeling, structural modeling,and I've been working in metal
forming, automotive, aerospaceand semiconductor modeling space
(02:08):
for the past 17 years.
I'm very happy to be here withyou.
Francoise von Trapp (02:13):
Okay, and Rose, how about you?
Rose Guino (02:16):
Thank you.
Hello everyone, my name is RoseGuino and I'm the application
engineering manager at Henkel.
Been with Henkel for 17 going18 years now, have a PhD in
polymer chemistry and havedeveloped more than a dozen
products.
Thank you for having us.
Francoise von Trapp (02:35):
Henkel manufactures a lot of different
materials for different markets,so how does it operate within
the semiconductor ecosystem?
Rose?
Rose Guino (02:43):
Well, Henkel works with many customers across the
value chain and semiconductorright.
So we don't operate in thewafer front end but we do,
starting from the back end right.
So that is the assembly housedown to the modules and the end
user device manufacturing.
(03:04):
So we work with them, we workwith IDMs, we work with OSATs,
we work with even the foundries,from the very beginning of
design all the way to their highvolume manufacturing.
Francoise von Trapp (03:19):
Okay, you talked about mostly being in the
advanced packaging space.
Can you specifically talk aboutyour semiconductor portfolio?
Rose Guino (03:29):
From different material sets, whether it's wire
, bond or advanced packaging.
We have material offerings.
In particular, for advancedpackaging.
We have different types ofunderfills.
You're familiar with capillaryunderfill, which we're going to
talk about.
We also have the thermalcompression bonded
non-conductive paste and thenon-conductive film.
(03:51):
And within wafer levelpackaging, we have different
films for processing.
We also have liquid compressionmold and when we talk flip chip
BGAs or 2.5D architectures, wealso have the lid or stiffener
attached materials anddeveloping thermal interface
(04:11):
material.
So you see, we're a one-stopshop where we can help you with
your packaging needs.
Francoise von Trapp (04:18):
From what I'm hearing, it sounds like
Henkel's material sets arereally focused on the
reliability and thermal aspectof the advanced packaging
process, not so much theinterconnect.
Rose Guino (04:29):
Correct, we don't do wires.
It is the integration, soassembly of those, the
protection of those.
Francoise von Trapp (04:36):
So now, what are you seeing as some of
the latest trends in advancedpackaging that's driving your
development and your decisions?
Rose Guino (04:43):
A lot of cool stuff continues to evolve.
We hear AI, machine learning,now quantum technology, all
high-performance compute, andthat is mainly driven by us, the
consumers.
We want more, more data, fasterand reliable gadgets and
(05:09):
reliable gadgets In ourmaterials.
We have to make sure that weenable all these architectures
and everybody's doing their ownway 2.5D integration there are
different interfaces, differentmaterials being combined and we
need to be compatible with allof those.
As an underfill, we need tomake sure adhesion is good in
all different surfaces you havemetal, silicon and inorganic and
(05:34):
in terms of reliability,whether it goes in the car or
outer space, we have to makesure our material continues to
support the interconnects.
Francoise von Trapp (05:48):
So would you say that in some cases, the
materials that you work with onfor your customers are really
some of their secret sauce?
Rose Guino (05:57):
Yes, of course, the design right, that's the
hardware and the software, butto make it reliable and for them
to put them together, that iswith our help.
Francoise von Trapp (06:11):
Right, okay .
So now, as the industry evolvesand we see more high
performance, compute andprocesses are changing.
We're seeing, likethermocompression bonding, maybe
at some point giving way tohybrid bonding.
How are all of theseadvancements changing what
people require from theirmaterials?
Rose Guino (06:32):
Depending on the spaces that we need to fill.
That will dictate whatmaterials we put in the CTE
mismatches.
We need to make sure ourmaterial will help with
mitigation of those thermalexpansions.
The interfaces also I mentionedright.
(06:53):
We have to make sure all areintact and held together
throughout the harsh testing orthe real life harsh environments
.
Francoise von Trapp (07:04):
So, for instance, substrate materials
we're hearing a lot about glasscore substrate.
Is that impacting yourmaterials development?
Dariush Tari (07:13):
Yes, that would definitely.
That means that interactingwith different interfaces
dealing with different CTEmismatches, thermal effects
would be different, moistureeffects could be different.
So changing materials is not assimple as it may sound.
That changes a lot ofdevelopment for us as well.
That means that we have to takeinto account the challenges
(07:35):
that arise with that materialchange.
In this case you could havefracture, for example, happening
in the substrate where youdidn't expect it before, or the
load transfer will be verydifferent.
Those are the challenges thatarises with these materials and
combinations of materials,because we are putting more
brittle materials with differentCTE mismatches next to each
(07:58):
other and we're creating thesevery complex packages.
Of course, the features in thepackages are getting finer and
finer and that creates morestress concentration.
Maybe more brittle materialsare involved.
So there's a lot of things wehave to go through to design
these new materials and developthem.
Francoise von Trapp (08:18):
Do you think materials are now becoming
more important than ever then?
Because, as feature sizescontinue to shrink, it really
comes down to what you'rebuilding them with.
Dariush Tari (08:29):
Yes, that material is always part of it and it
plays a role.
Of course that means thatoptimized materials is becoming
more important, because we arenot designing material in a
vacuum space.
I imagine we are not justdesigning a cuff material to
withstand the harshestconditions.
New packages means that we haveto do sacrifices at different
(08:53):
points and there's an optimumthat maybe is not the best for
cuff but maybe for the lowdielectric material at the end
of line, that maybe it has totransfer the load, manage the
load at different locations alittle bit better.
The interfaces with that maybeit has to transfer the load,
manage the load at differentlocations a little bit better.
The interfaces with the soldermaybe has to be managed better.
Francoise von Trapp (09:12):
And when you say cuff, you're meaning
that's CUF capillary underfillright.
Dariush Tari (09:17):
Yes, the capillary material is correct, okay.
Francoise von Trapp (09:19):
So I was thinking about this how long
does it generally take toqualify a new material into the
advanced packaging process flow?
Rose Guino (09:30):
Yes, I think it depends.
If it's a minor tweak from anexisting, it could be fast six
to a year.
It's totally something new andit will require a series of
optimization, fine tuning, andit could take more than a year
to do Okay.
Francoise von Trapp (09:57):
Let's talk about what it takes to actually
develop a new material.
Now, traditionally, if acustomer came to you asking for
a new underfill material, forinstance, how would you approach
the development process?
Rose Guino (10:04):
Traditionally we'll get their requirement and most
of the time they'll have aspecific material property,
target, TG, CTE, modulus, andwe'll go down into details.
What are the gaps, the pitch,and that will help us design
what feature sizes, for exampleon the fillers to use, and in
(10:29):
some cases they'll requirethermal conductivity for heat
dissipation.
So then when we get that, ourproduct development chemist will
start the formulation untilthey get that targeted material
property set formulation.
Until they get that targetedmaterial property set, Our team,
(10:49):
application engineering, willthen do the actual physical test
on our test vehicles, flipchips, chip on wafer and then
see and get that experimentaldata, most especially on
reliability.
So that will go through aseries of cycles until we get
that final golden material andthen sampled to the customer.
Dariush Tari (11:12):
And, if I can add about the CTQs, maybe the flow
is something that you have tolook at.
The reliability cycles, crackresistance of the material Maybe
the customer has a preferenceto that, maybe they want to
manage stress in their devicescould be an aspect of material
(11:34):
sustainability or materialhomogeneity after cure, keep out
zones, modulus and CT, as Rosementioned.
So there's a lot of aspects ofmaterial that we have to
optimize for when we'redeveloping new material.
Francoise von Trapp (11:51):
Dariush, your role is in modeling.
Can you explain a little bitmore about how you use modeling
to develop capillary endophyll?
Dariush Tari (11:57):
Yes, so modeling allows you to basically study a
device before you actually makeit or study a material before
you actually make the material.
In this case, if there's a CTQ,then they ask for a modulus
temperature profile.
You can try that in modeling inthe models that is available to
(12:21):
us with the test vehicles thatwe have internally, to
understand how the stress willchange as a result of that CTQ,
and that helps us to understandthe customer requirements a
little better and find thebasically design space that we
have to work in and optimize thematerial in that space and also
(12:41):
modeling.
One other aspect is that it canhelp our customers.
Of course this opens the roomfor discussions and
collaborations a lot earlier onthan if we wait and make a
material and send it to customerfor testing and receive the
results.
So this iterative process isunlocked by power of modeling
(13:02):
and this is something that webenefit from, both us and the
customer.
Francoise von Trapp (13:06):
Are these actual physical models or are
they simulation software models?
Dariush Tari (13:11):
It is simulation of the real physics, so it's a
physics-based modeling.
Usually, we use a method suchas finite element modeling for
structural analysis, and it's anexample of it.
Francoise von Trapp (13:22):
So you actually model the device plus
the material.
Dariush Tari (13:26):
Correct the combination, as is in the design
.
We have internal devices thatwe can model and that helps us
to actually validate andcorrelate our models to the
actual experimentation and thatgives us more confidence of what
we are seeing.
In the modeling we try tocapture all the complexities of
the geometry of the device asmuch as possible.
(13:47):
Of course, there are alwayssimplifications in the modeling.
In any case, model allows youto look into things that in
testing you cannot go see.
For example, you cannot see howthe forces are transferred
within different materials andwhich are the critical areas
that you should be worried about.
If you change the modulus hereor TG there, how does it affect
(14:12):
the fatigue in the solder ballnow?
So all that, basically thingsthat gets unlocked by modeling-
and so modeling is a newapproach to materials
development.
Not new.
However, with morecomputational power we can
advance our modeling techniques.
That means that we can add acomplexity to the mathematics
(14:33):
behind the engine of oursoftware.
Basically, we can utilize morecomplex material models material
models in this case.
Imagine the math behind thatsimulation.
Maybe before it would take asupercomputer to run a
simulation like that, but now anormal you know commercial
cluster of computational nodescan give you results in a few
(14:57):
days or a few hours, dependingon what you're solving for.
Francoise von Trapp (15:01):
So we've been talking a lot about lately
about digital twins and howdigital twins are being used at
the factory level or even usedto design advanced packages.
Is this similar to a digitaltwin approach?
Dariush Tari (15:15):
It could be the input to a digital twin.
So imagine if you have aphysics-based model.
It usually takes longer time torun than a digital twin,
because when you think about adigital twin you're thinking
about instantaneously gettingthe output from the model.
But in this case aphysics-based simulation can be
(15:35):
used as points of input tocalibrate a digital twin.
That means that with deeplearning and neural networks,
you can fit the output from aphysics-based model and after
you're done with the calibrationof a meta model or a deep
learning neural network thatallows you to instantaneously
(15:57):
interpolate between the pointsthat you have given the neural
network, in this case as input.
And also an interesting pointis that with digital twins you
can also use experimental dataas input, and so if you have
physics-based modeling and youhave on the other side these
experimental points, you cancombine them and make hybrid
(16:18):
models.
So things that you cannotactually test you can simulate,
and then that combined basicallycreates new opportunities to
see more advanced behavior inthat design space that you're
looking at.
Francoise von Trapp (16:34):
So can you even do like reliability testing
in the simulation.
Dariush Tari (16:39):
Yes, you can do.
There are methods for fatigueand fracture that you can do in
the simulation.
They tend to be very expensive.
There are approaches that helpus reduce the cost.
For example, we can do thetechnique called sub-modeling.
That means that you capture thedetails of complexity of your
(17:02):
device in a sub-model, theboundary conditions of which
comes from a more simple model.
So you run the simple model,you get the boundary conditions
that you need for the next model, which is called submodel, and
that submodel really dives intothe detail of complexities that
you have in the device.
And that allows us then, forexample, to model a crack, crack
(17:26):
propagation through thematerial.
Let's imagine a low-keymaterial at the end of line and
then you can maybe put a crackthere and see if the crack grows
or not.
Francoise von Trapp (17:35):
And then you can maybe put a crack there
and see if the crack grows ornot.
So how important is it to worksimultaneously along with the
package designer?
Dariush Tari (17:41):
It is very close because the package designer.
Of course they work on thedesign, but at the same time,
from my point of view, they needto run simulations on their
side to come up with designfeatures that manages the stress
and reliability and aspectsthat they're concerned about in
their design.
What they need as input totheir models are material models
(18:04):
.
Basically, material models area mathematical calibrated model
that describes how each part ofthis simulation, the materials
inside the simulation, shouldstretch and deform while you're
loading it.
Imagine if the temperature ischanging.
How should the cuff soften withtemperature?
What's the modulus at eachpoint of geometry?
(18:26):
That's given by characterizingmaterial, calibrating material
model, and that's why it'simportant that a modeling
engineer from the device designperspective works with a company
like Henkel that understand thematerial space very well and to
understand material modelingand material characterization
(18:48):
very well.
Francoise von Trapp (18:49):
Yeah, because I would imagine doing
those things in collaborationand designing the device and the
materials used can make itpossible to do things you didn't
think you would be able to do,For instance, if you were just
designing and you didn't knowthat there was a material
available that might help youachieve the performance goals.
Dariush Tari (19:12):
Yeah, in this case in modeling you can try any
idea and failure cost basicallyis so low you're missing a few
days of simulation time asopposed to in prior.
You have to come up withtechniques of assembly, actually
how it works in themanufacturing, and then run it
through a month of testing tosee whether it would fail or not
(19:32):
.
But that, then run it through amonth of testing to see whether
it would fail or not.
But that instantaneouslyknowing changing the modulus
here or there and materialproperties, how does it really
affect?
Is it in the right direction ornot?
That is the insights you getwith this modeling techniques.
Francoise von Trapp (19:45):
So what is this approach done for the
materials development cycleversus traditional approaches?
Dariush Tari (19:56):
development cycle versus traditional approaches.
You can do techniques such aswhat we call virtual material
modeling.
We can assume the propertiesand build the material model
with those assumed properties,instead of actually making a
material.
If, imagine, your productdevelopment for the material
development side has an idea andsays okay, if I have a TG like
this, this modulus range, wouldit help or not?
Well, you can do virtualmaterial modeling or calibrate
(20:21):
the mathematical formulation,basically, which I described
before, to these imaginaryproperties, use this and even
give it to the customers, and wetry this.
This mimics what would be theoutcome.
Of course, one thing you have totake note of is that the
assumptions have to bephysically possible.
(20:41):
You cannot make any combinationof properties because you
change something in theformulation, something else may
change opposite to how you want.
So, considering that, which isexactly what the expertise of a
formulation engineer is, you canthen come up with virtual
material models that then youcan put it into simulation.
(21:03):
Interestingly, you can even runthe simulation multiple times.
Let's say you create outputsusing the virtual material
modeling.
Imagine you cover all thedesign space that you can play
with in the material designspace.
Now you have inputs and outputs.
Then, with that input andoutput, it's a perfect scenario
for calibrating a meta model orneural network or a response
(21:27):
surface method, and that allowsyou to even run these cycles
faster and understand how theseinputs will affect the output.
Francoise von Trapp (21:36):
So all of the new developments in AI must
be impacting this in some way.
Are you using AI for?
Dariush Tari (21:43):
your models.
Yes, we started to see AIsactually coming in and helping
in many different ways.
You can see that in the softwaredevelopment side the tools we
use, of course, there's more andmore user assistant features in
the softwares.
There are GPTs that are releasedthat help you understand your
(22:03):
questions better, ask thequestions better.
Also, the trends that I seewith AI is that across
multi-physics, the model startsprobably to get more vertically
integrated, going from thermalto structural, and so these
products are emerging.
And with the acquisitions thatare happening in the space of
(22:24):
software for simulation, you cansee that they are packing these
solutions more closely andbringing in as a harmonious
ecosystem for design ofsemiconductors.
And the other aspect is thatrobotics a dance of robotics,
help us collect test informationin scale, in larger scale than
(22:47):
a test lab engineer could dowith better quality data, and
that, combined with the power ofneural networks and machine
learning, faster simulationcoming from the more advanced
chips unlocks more simulationpower and combined with this
mass test data, mass simulationdata, that allows us to build
(23:10):
even larger, more complicated AI, machine learning driven models
in the future, and that'ssomething that we're looking at
for the future.
Francoise von Trapp (23:19):
Okay, Okay, so we've been talking in a lot
of like high levelgeneralizations, but one of the
things we did want to talk aboutspecifically is how you're
using these models to developcapillary underfill.
So let's start a little bit byexplaining what capillary
underfill is and what it does.
Dariush Tari (23:38):
Yes, great question.
So capillary underfill cuff isa material that we dispense
under the dye to predict thesolder balls.
Basically, without thismaterial we have a lot of shear
experience through thereliability cycle, especially
with the solder balls, becauseof the warpage.
(23:59):
In the package you have CTEmismatches and that really
causes parts of your deviceexpanding with temperature more
than the other parts.
Like dye, for example, has alow CTE but substrates organic
substrates have larger CTE, thenthat causes the package to warp
and during this warpage thesubstrate will transfer the load
(24:22):
through the solder balls to dye.
That means that they have toshear a lot Each cycle of
reliability.
These materials are accumulatingdamage inside them, microscopic
damages, and eventually thisdamage will cause fatigue of the
problem and this is aphenomenon well known in
mechanical engineering.
(24:43):
So cuff materials we dispensethis as a liquid form and then
we cure it.
It forms a radius around thedye and goes under the dye,
basically surrounds all thesolder balls and then after the
cure it stiffens.
Of course it's a polymeric,usually epoxy-baked material
(25:06):
with some fillers inside, and itactually helps carry the load
that should be transferred fromthe substrate to dye and that
saves the solder balls.
That allows them to survive thethousand cycles that you expect
them during the reliabilitycycle.
Francoise von Trapp (25:23):
So there are different types of underfill
and, rose, maybe this is a goodquestion for you when would you
choose a capillary underfillover, say, a liquid mold
underfill?
When would you determine whichto use?
Rose Guino (25:35):
Right.
So, as you mentioned, there aremany different types.
You have your molded underfill,the capillary underfill and the
pre-applied underfill.
So it all boils down to whatinterconnects and what types of
interconnects and the spacesthat you want to fill, what
types of interconnects and thespaces that you want to fill.
(25:57):
Dhirush mentioned solder balls.
Now we've seen copper pillarwith solder cap, You're seeing
smaller versions of them, themicro bumps, and even down to
copper.
To copper, you know whetherit's hybrid or just.
You know pure metal bonding.
In terms of the assembly of thechip to the substrate or to an
(26:19):
interposer or another dye, ifit's via mass reflow or if the
approach is form the jointsfirst before underfill, that's
your post-applied.
So that would be your capillaryunderfill or your molded
underfill.
But if you want to protect thejoints while you're forming them
(26:41):
, that would be your pre-applied.
So that is where yourthermocompression NCP or NCF
come in.
So from, let's say, copperpillar or solder balls that are
still wide gap and not so tightpitch, reflow works.
(27:03):
But as you saw from theevolution into the TSVs and you
have your die stacking, yourHBMs, I think your gaps now are
less than 10 micron and thepitches are less than 30 micron.
The pre-applied may work or ispreferred, whether it's the NCP
(27:24):
or the NCF for stacking, andwe're able to use molded
underfill for that application.
So again, you have many choices.
The goal of these underfillsare the same it's to protect.
They're all reliable and it'snow a matter of technical and
(27:44):
economical.
Francoise von Trapp (27:46):
Basically, it depends on how high density
the device is.
Rose Guino (27:51):
Correct.
I mean, in theory you can useall, but do you really need it?
For that simple device, right,a simple cuff or a simple muff
might work, but for that highend, where you really need extra
protection and assembly iscritical, then you might go with
(28:12):
the higher end version, okay.
Francoise von Trapp (28:15):
And Henkel provides all of these options.
Rose Guino (28:18):
Yeah, so we do have the capillary underfill, the NCP
, the NCF and now the liquidmolded underfill.
Francoise von Trapp (28:26):
When you're working on developing new
advanced capillary underfills.
Advanced capillary underfillshow does working with Dairush's
modeling team impact?
Rose Guino (28:41):
your ability to provide your customer with what
they're looking for.
Yeah, good question.
Dairush and his team, themodeling team, really helped us
develop faster and understandour material better, especially
in terms of reliabilityperformance.
We actually recently launched anew underfill for advanced
silicon nodes and, with the helpof the modeling team, we've
(29:03):
showcased to our customers whythis material is good.
It shows where the stresses areand how it helps with the
reliability of thoseinterconnects.
Francoise von Trapp (29:13):
Yeah, so what do you want listeners to
understand about the benefits ofmodeling?
Dariush Tari (29:22):
So I want them to understand that through modeling
we accelerate the developmentprocess.
It unlocks opportunities forearly engagement.
It basically creates anenvironment between us and the
customer who work on a projectearlier with a more chance of
success.
Those are the benefits of ourmodeling work.
Francoise von Trapp (29:43):
So, as we're wrapping this up, what
would you like the audience andcustomers to know?
Dariush Tari (29:48):
We're always happy to hear from them.
We would like to engage withthem, especially on the modeling
side, as soon as possible, whenthey're on the modeling side,
as soon as possible when they'rein the design phase, because
that really, based on ourdiscussion, unlocks
opportunities to develop andprovide them and serve them
better, set them for the success.
We have good materialunderstanding of semiconductor
(30:12):
space.
Also the testing andcharacterization.
Maybe the customer requiresthis testing and input
information for the design.
We have very good, equipped andknowledgeable people in Henkel
for that.
Also, material modeling we areexperts in materials.
Of course.
We understand material modelsand customer needs.
(30:34):
Based on that, we also domodeling.
We understand the pain pointsand what they need to improve
their models.
We are very eager to actuallycollaborate with our customers,
co-develop these methods, unlocknew challenges, basically, and
new opportunities forco-development.
That's my take.
Francoise von Trapp (30:53):
So engage early and often.
Dariush Tari (30:55):
Yes, early and often.
Francoise von Trapp (30:57):
Rose, do you have any final thoughts?
Rose Guino (30:59):
Yes, I think Henkel.
We've been working with many ofour customers.
We hope that we continue to dothat as we address new
challenges.
We have global presence, sowherever they are, we have
Henkel there and we haveinnovation labs, application
engineering labs to help withfeasibility, proof, of concept
(31:21):
right.
So from beginning we can helpand we can do it in parallel to
test.
They're more than welcome tovisit our labs and they have I
mean, some of them have utilizedthat Continuous collaboration,
development, understandingfailures and even helping with
their high volume manufacturing,how to improve UPH and all that
(31:42):
.
Francoise von Trapp (31:42):
All right.
Where can people go to learnmore?
Dariush Tari (31:45):
At Henkelcom they can find the material portfolio
and in the adhesive sectionportfolio and in the adhesive
section we have mentions ofsemiconductor space and that
industry.
Francoise von Trapp (31:59):
They can go and find out about our
materials okay, well, we will besure to put links to that in
the show notes.
We'll also put links to each ofyour linkedin profiles so
people can contact you directly.
Thank you, everybody forjoining me today.
It was a pleasure, thank you,thank you very much.
(32:22):
This wraps up Season 4 of the 3DInsights Podcast.
We hope all of our listenersenjoy a relaxing holiday season
and we invite you to catch up onthe episodes you may have
missed by subscribing to the 3DInsights Podcast on Apple
Podcasts, spotify, amazon orwherever you get your podcasts.
We'll be back in 2025 with allnew episodes.
Until then, thanks forlistening.
There's lots more to come, sotune in next time to the 3D
(32:45):
Insights Podcast.
The 3D Insights Podcast is aproduction of 3D Insights LLC.
This episode of the 3D InCites
podcast is brought to you byHenkel, a global materials
innovator for industrial andconsumer businesses In the
electronics sector.
Henkel is renowned for itssemiconductor solutions for wire
bond and advanced packagingapplications, consumer device
assembly ingenuity andleading-edge thermal management
materials.
Founded in 1876, the companyemploys about 48,000 people
(00:24):
worldwide and has a longtradition of sustainability
leadership.
Discover more at Henkel.
com.
Hi there, I'm Francoise vonTrapp, and this is the 3D
InCites Podcast.
(00:48):
Hi everyone, have you everthought about what goes into
developing novel materials foryour advanced packaging
processes?
You know, much of the sameconsideration that goes into the
design of packages themselvesalso goes into materials
development.
So in this episode we'respeaking with Dariush Tari and
Rose Guino, who are subjectmatter experts at Henkel's
(01:10):
Semiconductor PackagingMaterials Division, and they're
going to tell us how theyapproach the process by looking
specifically at capillaryunderfill development, and we're
going to learn how they'redeveloping new methods to
address new challenges anddevelopment of these important
materials as semiconductorpackaging evolves.
So welcome to the podcast!.
Dariush Tari (01:29):
Thank you.
Rose Guino (01:30):
Hello.
Francoise von Trapp (01:32):
So it's so great to have you both on here
Before we dive in.
Can you each share a little bitabout your background and your
specific roles at Henkel Dariush, why don't you start?
Dariush Tari (01:45):
Yes, hello everyone.
My name is Dariush Tari.
I'm a modeling manager incentral R&D team.
I've been with Henkel for thepast five years.
I have a PhD in solid mechanicsfrom University of Waterloo in
Canada.
My expertise are materialcharacterization, material
modeling, structural modeling,and I've been working in metal
forming, automotive, aerospaceand semiconductor modeling space
(02:08):
for the past 17 years.
I'm very happy to be here withyou.
Francoise von Trapp (02:13):
Okay, and Rose, how about you?
Rose Guino (02:16):
Thank you.
Hello everyone, my name is RoseGuino and I'm the application
engineering manager at Henkel.
Been with Henkel for 17 going18 years now, have a PhD in
polymer chemistry and havedeveloped more than a dozen
products.
Thank you for having us.
Francoise von Trapp (02:35):
Henkel manufactures a lot of different
materials for different markets,so how does it operate within
the semiconductor ecosystem?
Rose?
Rose Guino (02:43):
Well, Henkel works with many customers across the
value chain and semiconductorright.
So we don't operate in thewafer front end but we do,
starting from the back end right.
So that is the assembly housedown to the modules and the end
user device manufacturing.
(03:04):
So we work with them, we workwith IDMs, we work with OSATs,
we work with even the foundries,from the very beginning of
design all the way to their highvolume manufacturing.
Francoise von Trapp (03:19):
Okay, you talked about mostly being in the
advanced packaging space.
Can you specifically talk aboutyour semiconductor portfolio?
Rose Guino (03:29):
From different material sets, whether it's wire
, bond or advanced packaging.
We have material offerings.
In particular, for advancedpackaging.
We have different types ofunderfills.
You're familiar with capillaryunderfill, which we're going to
talk about.
We also have the thermalcompression bonded
non-conductive paste and thenon-conductive film.
(03:51):
And within wafer levelpackaging, we have different
films for processing.
We also have liquid compressionmold and when we talk flip chip
BGAs or 2.5D architectures, wealso have the lid or stiffener
attached materials anddeveloping thermal interface
(04:11):
material.
So you see, we're a one-stopshop where we can help you with
your packaging needs.
Francoise von Trapp (04:18):
From what I'm hearing, it sounds like
Henkel's material sets arereally focused on the
reliability and thermal aspectof the advanced packaging
process, not so much theinterconnect.
Rose Guino (04:29):
Correct, we don't do wires.
It is the integration, soassembly of those, the
protection of those.
Francoise von Trapp (04:36):
So now, what are you seeing as some of
the latest trends in advancedpackaging that's driving your
development and your decisions?
Rose Guino (04:43):
A lot of cool stuff continues to evolve.
We hear AI, machine learning,now quantum technology, all
high-performance compute, andthat is mainly driven by us, the
consumers.
We want more, more data, fasterand reliable gadgets and
(05:09):
reliable gadgets In ourmaterials.
We have to make sure that weenable all these architectures
and everybody's doing their ownway 2.5D integration there are
different interfaces, differentmaterials being combined and we
need to be compatible with allof those.
As an underfill, we need tomake sure adhesion is good in
all different surfaces you havemetal, silicon and inorganic and
(05:34):
in terms of reliability,whether it goes in the car or
outer space, we have to makesure our material continues to
support the interconnects.
Francoise von Trapp (05:48):
So would you say that in some cases, the
materials that you work with onfor your customers are really
some of their secret sauce?
Rose Guino (05:57):
Yes, of course, the design right, that's the
hardware and the software, butto make it reliable and for them
to put them together, that iswith our help.
Francoise von Trapp (06:11):
Right, okay .
So now, as the industry evolvesand we see more high
performance, compute andprocesses are changing.
We're seeing, likethermocompression bonding, maybe
at some point giving way tohybrid bonding.
How are all of theseadvancements changing what
people require from theirmaterials?
Rose Guino (06:32):
Depending on the spaces that we need to fill.
That will dictate whatmaterials we put in the CTE
mismatches.
We need to make sure ourmaterial will help with
mitigation of those thermalexpansions.
The interfaces also I mentionedright.
(06:53):
We have to make sure all areintact and held together
throughout the harsh testing orthe real life harsh environments
.
Francoise von Trapp (07:04):
So, for instance, substrate materials
we're hearing a lot about glasscore substrate.
Is that impacting yourmaterials development?
Dariush Tari (07:13):
Yes, that would definitely.
That means that interactingwith different interfaces
dealing with different CTEmismatches, thermal effects
would be different, moistureeffects could be different.
So changing materials is not assimple as it may sound.
That changes a lot ofdevelopment for us as well.
That means that we have to takeinto account the challenges
(07:35):
that arise with that materialchange.
In this case you could havefracture, for example, happening
in the substrate where youdidn't expect it before, or the
load transfer will be verydifferent.
Those are the challenges thatarises with these materials and
combinations of materials,because we are putting more
brittle materials with differentCTE mismatches next to each
(07:58):
other and we're creating thesevery complex packages.
Of course, the features in thepackages are getting finer and
finer and that creates morestress concentration.
Maybe more brittle materialsare involved.
So there's a lot of things wehave to go through to design
these new materials and developthem.
Francoise von Trapp (08:18):
Do you think materials are now becoming
more important than ever then?
Because, as feature sizescontinue to shrink, it really
comes down to what you'rebuilding them with.
Dariush Tari (08:29):
Yes, that material is always part of it and it
plays a role.
Of course that means thatoptimized materials is becoming
more important, because we arenot designing material in a
vacuum space.
I imagine we are not justdesigning a cuff material to
withstand the harshestconditions.
New packages means that we haveto do sacrifices at different
(08:53):
points and there's an optimumthat maybe is not the best for
cuff but maybe for the lowdielectric material at the end
of line, that maybe it has totransfer the load, manage the
load at different locations alittle bit better.
The interfaces with that maybeit has to transfer the load,
manage the load at differentlocations a little bit better.
The interfaces with the soldermaybe has to be managed better.
Francoise von Trapp (09:12):
And when you say cuff, you're meaning
that's CUF capillary underfillright.
Dariush Tari (09:17):
Yes, the capillary material is correct, okay.
Francoise von Trapp (09:19):
So I was thinking about this how long
does it generally take toqualify a new material into the
advanced packaging process flow?
Rose Guino (09:30):
Yes, I think it depends.
If it's a minor tweak from anexisting, it could be fast six
to a year.
It's totally something new andit will require a series of
optimization, fine tuning, andit could take more than a year
to do Okay.
Francoise von Trapp (09:57):
Let's talk about what it takes to actually
develop a new material.
Now, traditionally, if acustomer came to you asking for
a new underfill material, forinstance, how would you approach
the development process?
Rose Guino (10:04):
Traditionally we'll get their requirement and most
of the time they'll have aspecific material property,
target, TG, CTE, modulus, andwe'll go down into details.
What are the gaps, the pitch,and that will help us design
what feature sizes, for exampleon the fillers to use, and in
(10:29):
some cases they'll requirethermal conductivity for heat
dissipation.
So then when we get that, ourproduct development chemist will
start the formulation untilthey get that targeted material
property set formulation.
Until they get that targetedmaterial property set, Our team,
(10:49):
application engineering, willthen do the actual physical test
on our test vehicles, flipchips, chip on wafer and then
see and get that experimentaldata, most especially on
reliability.
So that will go through aseries of cycles until we get
that final golden material andthen sampled to the customer.
Dariush Tari (11:12):
And, if I can add about the CTQs, maybe the flow
is something that you have tolook at.
The reliability cycles, crackresistance of the material Maybe
the customer has a preferenceto that, maybe they want to
manage stress in their devicescould be an aspect of material
(11:34):
sustainability or materialhomogeneity after cure, keep out
zones, modulus and CT, as Rosementioned.
So there's a lot of aspects ofmaterial that we have to
optimize for when we'redeveloping new material.
Francoise von Trapp (11:51):
Dariush, your role is in modeling.
Can you explain a little bitmore about how you use modeling
to develop capillary endophyll?
Dariush Tari (11:57):
Yes, so modeling allows you to basically study a
device before you actually makeit or study a material before
you actually make the material.
In this case, if there's a CTQ,then they ask for a modulus
temperature profile.
You can try that in modeling inthe models that is available to
(12:21):
us with the test vehicles thatwe have internally, to
understand how the stress willchange as a result of that CTQ,
and that helps us to understandthe customer requirements a
little better and find thebasically design space that we
have to work in and optimize thematerial in that space and also
(12:41):
modeling.
One other aspect is that it canhelp our customers.
Of course this opens the roomfor discussions and
collaborations a lot earlier onthan if we wait and make a
material and send it to customerfor testing and receive the
results.
So this iterative process isunlocked by power of modeling
(13:02):
and this is something that webenefit from, both us and the
customer.
Francoise von Trapp (13:06):
Are these actual physical models or are
they simulation software models?
Dariush Tari (13:11):
It is simulation of the real physics, so it's a
physics-based modeling.
Usually, we use a method suchas finite element modeling for
structural analysis, and it's anexample of it.
Francoise von Trapp (13:22):
So you actually model the device plus
the material.
Dariush Tari (13:26):
Correct the combination, as is in the design
.
We have internal devices thatwe can model and that helps us
to actually validate andcorrelate our models to the
actual experimentation and thatgives us more confidence of what
we are seeing.
In the modeling we try tocapture all the complexities of
the geometry of the device asmuch as possible.
(13:47):
Of course, there are alwayssimplifications in the modeling.
In any case, model allows youto look into things that in
testing you cannot go see.
For example, you cannot see howthe forces are transferred
within different materials andwhich are the critical areas
that you should be worried about.
If you change the modulus hereor TG there, how does it affect
(14:12):
the fatigue in the solder ballnow?
So all that, basically thingsthat gets unlocked by modeling-
and so modeling is a newapproach to materials
development.
Not new.
However, with morecomputational power we can
advance our modeling techniques.
That means that we can add acomplexity to the mathematics
(14:33):
behind the engine of oursoftware.
Basically, we can utilize morecomplex material models material
models in this case.
Imagine the math behind thatsimulation.
Maybe before it would take asupercomputer to run a
simulation like that, but now anormal you know commercial
cluster of computational nodescan give you results in a few
(14:57):
days or a few hours, dependingon what you're solving for.
Francoise von Trapp (15:01):
So we've been talking a lot about lately
about digital twins and howdigital twins are being used at
the factory level or even usedto design advanced packages.
Is this similar to a digitaltwin approach?
Dariush Tari (15:15):
It could be the input to a digital twin.
So imagine if you have aphysics-based model.
It usually takes longer time torun than a digital twin,
because when you think about adigital twin you're thinking
about instantaneously gettingthe output from the model.
But in this case aphysics-based simulation can be
(15:35):
used as points of input tocalibrate a digital twin.
That means that with deeplearning and neural networks,
you can fit the output from aphysics-based model and after
you're done with the calibrationof a meta model or a deep
learning neural network thatallows you to instantaneously
(15:57):
interpolate between the pointsthat you have given the neural
network, in this case as input.
And also an interesting pointis that with digital twins you
can also use experimental dataas input, and so if you have
physics-based modeling and youhave on the other side these
experimental points, you cancombine them and make hybrid
(16:18):
models.
So things that you cannotactually test you can simulate,
and then that combined basicallycreates new opportunities to
see more advanced behavior inthat design space that you're
looking at.
Francoise von Trapp (16:34):
So can you even do like reliability testing
in the simulation.
Dariush Tari (16:39):
Yes, you can do.
There are methods for fatigueand fracture that you can do in
the simulation.
They tend to be very expensive.
There are approaches that helpus reduce the cost.
For example, we can do thetechnique called sub-modeling.
That means that you capture thedetails of complexity of your
(17:02):
device in a sub-model, theboundary conditions of which
comes from a more simple model.
So you run the simple model,you get the boundary conditions
that you need for the next model, which is called submodel, and
that submodel really dives intothe detail of complexities that
you have in the device.
And that allows us then, forexample, to model a crack, crack
(17:26):
propagation through thematerial.
Let's imagine a low-keymaterial at the end of line and
then you can maybe put a crackthere and see if the crack grows
or not.
Francoise von Trapp (17:35):
And then you can maybe put a crack there
and see if the crack grows ornot.
So how important is it to worksimultaneously along with the
package designer?
Dariush Tari (17:41):
It is very close because the package designer.
Of course they work on thedesign, but at the same time,
from my point of view, they needto run simulations on their
side to come up with designfeatures that manages the stress
and reliability and aspectsthat they're concerned about in
their design.
What they need as input totheir models are material models
(18:04):
.
Basically, material models area mathematical calibrated model
that describes how each part ofthis simulation, the materials
inside the simulation, shouldstretch and deform while you're
loading it.
Imagine if the temperature ischanging.
How should the cuff soften withtemperature?
What's the modulus at eachpoint of geometry?
(18:26):
That's given by characterizingmaterial, calibrating material
model, and that's why it'simportant that a modeling
engineer from the device designperspective works with a company
like Henkel that understand thematerial space very well and to
understand material modelingand material characterization
(18:48):
very well.
Francoise von Trapp (18:49):
Yeah, because I would imagine doing
those things in collaborationand designing the device and the
materials used can make itpossible to do things you didn't
think you would be able to do,For instance, if you were just
designing and you didn't knowthat there was a material
available that might help youachieve the performance goals.
Dariush Tari (19:12):
Yeah, in this case in modeling you can try any
idea and failure cost basicallyis so low you're missing a few
days of simulation time asopposed to in prior.
You have to come up withtechniques of assembly, actually
how it works in themanufacturing, and then run it
through a month of testing tosee whether it would fail or not
(19:32):
.
But that, then run it through amonth of testing to see whether
it would fail or not.
But that instantaneouslyknowing changing the modulus
here or there and materialproperties, how does it really
affect?
Is it in the right direction ornot?
That is the insights you getwith this modeling techniques.
Francoise von Trapp (19:45):
So what is this approach done for the
materials development cycleversus traditional approaches?
Dariush Tari (19:56):
development cycle versus traditional approaches.
You can do techniques such aswhat we call virtual material
modeling.
We can assume the propertiesand build the material model
with those assumed properties,instead of actually making a
material.
If, imagine, your productdevelopment for the material
development side has an idea andsays okay, if I have a TG like
this, this modulus range, wouldit help or not?
Well, you can do virtualmaterial modeling or calibrate
(20:21):
the mathematical formulation,basically, which I described
before, to these imaginaryproperties, use this and even
give it to the customers, and wetry this.
This mimics what would be theoutcome.
Of course, one thing you have totake note of is that the
assumptions have to bephysically possible.
(20:41):
You cannot make any combinationof properties because you
change something in theformulation, something else may
change opposite to how you want.
So, considering that, which isexactly what the expertise of a
formulation engineer is, you canthen come up with virtual
material models that then youcan put it into simulation.
(21:03):
Interestingly, you can even runthe simulation multiple times.
Let's say you create outputsusing the virtual material
modeling.
Imagine you cover all thedesign space that you can play
with in the material designspace.
Now you have inputs and outputs.
Then, with that input andoutput, it's a perfect scenario
for calibrating a meta model orneural network or a response
(21:27):
surface method, and that allowsyou to even run these cycles
faster and understand how theseinputs will affect the output.
Francoise von Trapp (21:36):
So all of the new developments in AI must
be impacting this in some way.
Are you using AI for?
Dariush Tari (21:43):
your models.
Yes, we started to see AIsactually coming in and helping
in many different ways.
You can see that in the softwaredevelopment side the tools we
use, of course, there's more andmore user assistant features in
the softwares.
There are GPTs that are releasedthat help you understand your
(22:03):
questions better, ask thequestions better.
Also, the trends that I seewith AI is that across
multi-physics, the model startsprobably to get more vertically
integrated, going from thermalto structural, and so these
products are emerging.
And with the acquisitions thatare happening in the space of
(22:24):
software for simulation, you cansee that they are packing these
solutions more closely andbringing in as a harmonious
ecosystem for design ofsemiconductors.
And the other aspect is thatrobotics a dance of robotics,
help us collect test informationin scale, in larger scale than
(22:47):
a test lab engineer could dowith better quality data, and
that, combined with the power ofneural networks and machine
learning, faster simulationcoming from the more advanced
chips unlocks more simulationpower and combined with this
mass test data, mass simulationdata, that allows us to build
(23:10):
even larger, more complicated AI, machine learning driven models
in the future, and that'ssomething that we're looking at
for the future.
Francoise von Trapp (23:19):
Okay, Okay, so we've been talking in a lot
of like high levelgeneralizations, but one of the
things we did want to talk aboutspecifically is how you're
using these models to developcapillary underfill.
So let's start a little bit byexplaining what capillary
underfill is and what it does.
Dariush Tari (23:38):
Yes, great question.
So capillary underfill cuff isa material that we dispense
under the dye to predict thesolder balls.
Basically, without thismaterial we have a lot of shear
experience through thereliability cycle, especially
with the solder balls, becauseof the warpage.
(23:59):
In the package you have CTEmismatches and that really
causes parts of your deviceexpanding with temperature more
than the other parts.
Like dye, for example, has alow CTE but substrates organic
substrates have larger CTE, thenthat causes the package to warp
and during this warpage thesubstrate will transfer the load
(24:22):
through the solder balls to dye.
That means that they have toshear a lot Each cycle of
reliability.
These materials are accumulatingdamage inside them, microscopic
damages, and eventually thisdamage will cause fatigue of the
problem and this is aphenomenon well known in
mechanical engineering.
(24:43):
So cuff materials we dispensethis as a liquid form and then
we cure it.
It forms a radius around thedye and goes under the dye,
basically surrounds all thesolder balls and then after the
cure it stiffens.
Of course it's a polymeric,usually epoxy-baked material
(25:06):
with some fillers inside, and itactually helps carry the load
that should be transferred fromthe substrate to dye and that
saves the solder balls.
That allows them to survive thethousand cycles that you expect
them during the reliabilitycycle.
Francoise von Trapp (25:23):
So there are different types of underfill
and, rose, maybe this is a goodquestion for you when would you
choose a capillary underfillover, say, a liquid mold
underfill?
When would you determine whichto use?
Rose Guino (25:35):
Right.
So, as you mentioned, there aremany different types.
You have your molded underfill,the capillary underfill and the
pre-applied underfill.
So it all boils down to whatinterconnects and what types of
interconnects and the spacesthat you want to fill, what
types of interconnects and thespaces that you want to fill.
(25:57):
Dhirush mentioned solder balls.
Now we've seen copper pillarwith solder cap, You're seeing
smaller versions of them, themicro bumps, and even down to
copper.
To copper, you know whetherit's hybrid or just.
You know pure metal bonding.
In terms of the assembly of thechip to the substrate or to an
(26:19):
interposer or another dye, ifit's via mass reflow or if the
approach is form the jointsfirst before underfill, that's
your post-applied.
So that would be your capillaryunderfill or your molded
underfill.
But if you want to protect thejoints while you're forming them
(26:41):
, that would be your pre-applied.
So that is where yourthermocompression NCP or NCF
come in.
So from, let's say, copperpillar or solder balls that are
still wide gap and not so tightpitch, reflow works.
(27:03):
But as you saw from theevolution into the TSVs and you
have your die stacking, yourHBMs, I think your gaps now are
less than 10 micron and thepitches are less than 30 micron.
The pre-applied may work or ispreferred, whether it's the NCP
(27:24):
or the NCF for stacking, andwe're able to use molded
underfill for that application.
So again, you have many choices.
The goal of these underfillsare the same it's to protect.
They're all reliable and it'snow a matter of technical and
(27:44):
economical.
Francoise von Trapp (27:46):
Basically, it depends on how high density
the device is.
Rose Guino (27:51):
Correct.
I mean, in theory you can useall, but do you really need it?
For that simple device, right,a simple cuff or a simple muff
might work, but for that highend, where you really need extra
protection and assembly iscritical, then you might go with
(28:12):
the higher end version, okay.
Francoise von Trapp (28:15):
And Henkel provides all of these options.
Rose Guino (28:18):
Yeah, so we do have the capillary underfill, the NCP
, the NCF and now the liquidmolded underfill.
Francoise von Trapp (28:26):
When you're working on developing new
advanced capillary underfills.
Advanced capillary underfillshow does working with Dairush's
modeling team impact?
Rose Guino (28:41):
your ability to provide your customer with what
they're looking for.
Yeah, good question.
Dairush and his team, themodeling team, really helped us
develop faster and understandour material better, especially
in terms of reliabilityperformance.
We actually recently launched anew underfill for advanced
silicon nodes and, with the helpof the modeling team, we've
(29:03):
showcased to our customers whythis material is good.
It shows where the stresses areand how it helps with the
reliability of thoseinterconnects.
Francoise von Trapp (29:13):
Yeah, so what do you want listeners to
understand about the benefits ofmodeling?
Dariush Tari (29:22):
So I want them to understand that through modeling
we accelerate the developmentprocess.
It unlocks opportunities forearly engagement.
It basically creates anenvironment between us and the
customer who work on a projectearlier with a more chance of
success.
Those are the benefits of ourmodeling work.
Francoise von Trapp (29:43):
So, as we're wrapping this up, what
would you like the audience andcustomers to know?
Dariush Tari (29:48):
We're always happy to hear from them.
We would like to engage withthem, especially on the modeling
side, as soon as possible, whenthey're on the modeling side,
as soon as possible when they'rein the design phase, because
that really, based on ourdiscussion, unlocks
opportunities to develop andprovide them and serve them
better, set them for the success.
We have good materialunderstanding of semiconductor
(30:12):
space.
Also the testing andcharacterization.
Maybe the customer requiresthis testing and input
information for the design.
We have very good, equipped andknowledgeable people in Henkel
for that.
Also, material modeling we areexperts in materials.
Of course.
We understand material modelsand customer needs.
(30:34):
Based on that, we also domodeling.
We understand the pain pointsand what they need to improve
their models.
We are very eager to actuallycollaborate with our customers,
co-develop these methods, unlocknew challenges, basically, and
new opportunities forco-development.
That's my take.
Francoise von Trapp (30:53):
So engage early and often.
Dariush Tari (30:55):
Yes, early and often.
Francoise von Trapp (30:57):
Rose, do you have any final thoughts?
Rose Guino (30:59):
Yes, I think Henkel.
We've been working with many ofour customers.
We hope that we continue to dothat as we address new
challenges.
We have global presence, sowherever they are, we have
Henkel there and we haveinnovation labs, application
engineering labs to help withfeasibility, proof, of concept
(31:21):
right.
So from beginning we can helpand we can do it in parallel to
test.
They're more than welcome tovisit our labs and they have I
mean, some of them have utilizedthat Continuous collaboration,
development, understandingfailures and even helping with
their high volume manufacturing,how to improve UPH and all that
(31:42):
.
Francoise von Trapp (31:42):
All right.
Where can people go to learnmore?
Dariush Tari (31:45):
At Henkelcom they can find the material portfolio
and in the adhesive sectionportfolio and in the adhesive
section we have mentions ofsemiconductor space and that
industry.
Francoise von Trapp (31:59):
They can go and find out about our
materials okay, well, we will besure to put links to that in
the show notes.
We'll also put links to each ofyour linkedin profiles so
people can contact you directly.
Thank you, everybody forjoining me today.
It was a pleasure, thank you,thank you very much.
(32:22):
This wraps up Season 4 of the 3DInsights Podcast.
We hope all of our listenersenjoy a relaxing holiday season
and we invite you to catch up onthe episodes you may have
missed by subscribing to the 3DInsights Podcast on Apple
Podcasts, spotify, amazon orwherever you get your podcasts.
We'll be back in 2025 with allnew episodes.
Until then, thanks forlistening.
There's lots more to come, sotune in next time to the 3D
(32:45):
Insights Podcast.
The 3D Insights Podcast is aproduction of 3D Insights LLC.
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