October 2, 2025 • 43 mins
A semiconductor wafer travels around the globe five times on average before becoming the chip in your smartphone. Each journey represents a potential risk to device reliability that few consumers—or even industry professionals—ever consider.
Behind every high-performing semiconductor device lies a carefully orchestrated logistics operation ensuring these sensitive components arrive intact and functioning. As Francoise von Trapp discovers in this eye-opening conversation with John Desmond and Valentina Aplenalp of Kuehne+Nagel, the journey matters just as much as the manufacturing.
Drawing from his background in semiconductor design and manufacturing, John explains how vibration, temperature fluctuations, humidity, and even light exposure can compromise device integrity during transit. Wafers transported in specialized containers called FOUPs, delicate packaging materials, and critical replacement parts for manufacturing equipment all require extraordinary care throughout their global journeys.
Valentina reveals the sophisticated systems developed to protect these valuable shipments: real-time environmental monitoring sensors connected to 24/7 control towers, specialized air-ride vehicles, and climate-controlled packaging solutions. When emergencies arise—like a critical equipment failure threatening production—their time-critical logistics teams deliver replacement parts within hours, not days.
Most fascinating is the human element. The Semicon Chain certification program ensures every person who might handle semiconductor shipments receives specialized training, creating an end-to-end system where nothing is left to chance. As John puts it, they aim to be "the best partner that you never know you had"—the hidden force ensuring semiconductor reliability.
Whether you're a semiconductor professional, supply chain specialist, or simply curious about the invisible infrastructure supporting our digital world, this episode offers rare insight into how logistics enables technological innovation.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
This episode of the 3D Insights podcast is sponsored
by Kuhn Noggle.
You can trust Semicon Logisticsby Kune Noggle to navigate even
the most demanding supply chainchallenges.
Whether you move raw materials,finished chips, or sensitive
capital equipment, everyshipment is backed by the
Semicon Chain Certified Network.
Discover more atwww.coonandogle.com.
(00:24):
That's K-U-E-H-N-E-N-A-G-E-L dotcom.
SPEAKER_02 (00:38):
Hi there.
I'm Francoise von Trapp, andthis is the 3D Insights Podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (00:49):
Hi everyone.
We've been talking a lot latelyabout the importance of
semiconductor devicereliability, especially as they
become more complex and costly.
And up until now, um, theconversation has mostly revolved
around inspection and metrologyof the devices themselves and
processes used to build them.
But have you ever consideredwhat happens to the wafers, the
(01:12):
dyes, the final product oncethey're being shipped for final
manufacture or in whateverproduct they're going to be?
So today we're talking aboutthat unseen force behind
semiconductor devicereliability, and that is a
secure and reliable supplychain.
Joining me for today'sconversation is John Desmond and
(01:35):
Valentina Aplenalp of CUNANOGL.
Welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Thank you very much for having us.
SPEAKER_03 (01:40):
Thank you.
So before we dive into thediscussion, can you just each
tell our listeners about yourbackground and your specific
roles at CUNANOGLE?
SPEAKER_00 (01:49):
Yeah, thank you very much.
I suppose I go back tooriginally having left
university with a degree inelectronic and electrical
engineering.
I spent 10 years in thesemiconductor arena, moves on
from there to an OAM companywhere doing repairs, BGA and a
ball level, grid rate on mobilephones, and then finally the
last 10 years in logistics.
(02:09):
So it's kind of come full circlefrom where I graduated all the
ways around to logistics of theparts that I was designing and
working in back in thesemiconducts.
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
Well, I can see where that would be helpful at
Cuna Nagle to have somebody whois a specialist in and knows
end-to-end what happens to builda semiconductor device to kind
of identify the places where youneed to be extra careful.
So I'm glad we're going to havea really good conversation about
that.
How about you, Valentina?
SPEAKER_01 (02:40):
Uh I have been with Kunenagel for 10 years.
And in my last 10 years, I havealways been working in uh
product and product development.
So I have worked uh on severaltypes of uh uh industries, and
uh lately I have been uh umtaking care of the semical
(03:01):
logistics product for the airlogistics team in Kunanagle.
So nice talking about this topictoday with you.
SPEAKER_03 (03:09):
Okay, and so just to clarify, when you're talking
about products, you're talkingabout Kunanagle's products to
provide those logisticssolutions.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Yes, we call them products.
Uh, you could say they areservices, it's service designed
for specific type of industries.
So we work with customers, withuh people like John that come
from the industry, and wedevelop uh services that are uh
customized to a certain type ofindustry, like for semiconductor
(03:40):
business.
Yeah, we call them product inour company, but it's active
services, yes.
SPEAKER_03 (03:46):
Okay, so one of the things that I've noticed is
people only notice logisticswhen they fail.
And then semiconductors,handling and transport directly
impact the back-end yield andreliability of those devices and
products.
So now, John, from your fab andback-end experience, can you
walk us through that journeythat a semiconductor device
(04:08):
takes before reaching final testand maybe identify some of the
critical points where logisticscould impact yield and
reliability?
SPEAKER_00 (04:16):
Yeah, sure.
It's actually a very goodquestion.
I suppose one of the things wehave to look at is we take a
helicopter view that the actualback-end process starts from
when you have the disc that mostpeople would know, which has all
the chips actually on the wafer.
And the first part of that wouldobviously be cutting and dicing.
And then there are many stepsafter that along the way, where
it goes from cutting and dicing,you die attached with wire
(04:38):
bonding, and there's a few extrasteps along the way before it
becomes the chip that everybodysees.
But within those, say, maybe 10processes along the way, there's
a multitude of you know, capitalequipment, there's a multitude
of um of spare parts being used,there's a multitude of wire
bonding, substrates there thatare indigenous to that
particular part of the processthat we're using.
(05:00):
And each one of those touchpoints, a bit like baking a cake
when you move from you know partA to part B to going into the
oven, wherever you have a changein the process, that's where a
potential failure can occur.
SPEAKER_03 (05:14):
And these process steps can actually take place in
different locations that requireyou to move those parts.
SPEAKER_00 (05:21):
That would be correct.
And that's a good observationthat a lot of people wouldn't
realize.
So, on average, a wafer chipwould probably move around the
globe five times as it goes fromvarious aspects because there's
no one place that's actually bigenough to do the whole
end-to-end process of a chip.
So, as such, also you havedifferent capital equipment
required for each of thesesteps.
(05:43):
So you have some specialized uhcompanies that are only doing
this OSAT packaging, sotherefore they have their own,
you know, basically cities wherethese chips come in and then
they reach their final assemblyand testing before they move on
to the consumer.
So once it does that, once thechip moves into these locations,
it moves back out again.
So there's constant movement ofthese chips, it doesn't just
(06:05):
happen in one location.
SPEAKER_03 (06:07):
What about TSMC?
SPEAKER_00 (06:09):
So TSMC obviously won a huge company, but TSMC
would obviously use also OSAS aswell.
TSMC would be considered afoundry.
SPEAKER_03 (06:18):
They are doing some advanced packaging, the very
advanced packaging.
SPEAKER_00 (06:21):
Yes, and that's the thing.
It's like having the differencebetween, you know, um a car with
four wheels and your you know uhhigh-end automotive.
You know, not everybody needsthe Formula One race car.
Um, and it's the same with uhconsumer industry.
You know, you do have say mobilephones, but the chips using
mobile phones wouldn't be thesame that's needed in, say, a
(06:41):
quantum device or in say um um aPC or a laptop.
They all have, you know, what wesay in Ireland is horses for
courses.
So it depends on what the courseis, depending on how you want
your horse.
Do you want a jumper?
Do you want a runner?
Do you want a sprinter?
It's the same for chips.
SPEAKER_03 (06:58):
Okay, so can you maybe illustrate this with a
story of when a logistics issuecould have derailed the back-end
performance of a device?
SPEAKER_00 (07:08):
Yeah, it's uh it's the classic example of process
failure.
Like in engineering, you look atthe touch points, and there are
various elements along the waythat can be catastrophic
failures, and that's when theprocess itself comes to a stop,
regardless of what the processis.
So if we just take, say, um Ijust pick one die attach, is
when you actually attach the dieto the back of a substrate.
(07:28):
So there is capex there used,you know, to literally pick the
pieces that are sawn off theoriginal uh wafer.
Now that's all done with youknow millimeter and nanometer
precision.
So this has to be done byobviously a robotic device.
Now, there's always going to bemoving parts with any kind of
robotic device.
These things do eventually fail.
(07:50):
There is uh you know MTBSmeantime between failures and so
on.
So you have to allow for this,you have to change out these
certain parts.
Again, using an everydayexample, it's like your car.
Your car works, but eventuallythe tire will go flat or the oil
will run out.
Or in some cases, today thebattery needs to be charged, and
at that point is a processfailure.
(08:11):
And in this kind of an industrywith semicon, it's usually
capex, and it's where that pieceof capex fails, that would be a
catastrophic failure that wouldstop the whole process.
SPEAKER_03 (08:22):
And logistics can impact that, whether or not that
part is replaced on time, orwhether the part gets there is
all intact itself.
SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
That's correct.
So obviously, say the engineeron site will be looking to get
that piece of equipment back upand running as as quickly as
possible because you knowseconds is a lot of money in the
semiconduc industry.
So when they want that part tobe there on time, so they will
know there could be acatastrophic failure where they
don't know it's going to happen.
They want it now, they want thepart ship now.
(08:55):
And it could be that they have amaintenance that just needs to
run.
And if the part isn't therewaiting, then that's when that
piece of equipment doesn't workand the whole process comes to a
basically a stop.
SPEAKER_03 (09:07):
Okay.
Valentina, how does Cunanagletranslate these back-end
requirements into logisticspractice, especially when we're
talking about securingway-for-guide transfers and um
ISO class handling?
SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
So, what we do at Kunanagel, we do exactly what we
are doing today.
We talk to customers, we try tounderstand what are their needs,
we try to understand what theyhave to move and what are the
requirements of what we aremoving.
And based on that, we thendefine the semiconduction.
So that's how we come up for asupply chain solution in
(09:45):
logistics to take care basicallyof the particular needs of, in
this case, the wafer or thediet.
And we try to basically uh putall of these requirements
together and come up withhandling protocols that actually
meet the ISO requirements.
(10:06):
So we need to ensure inlogistics that whatever we do,
every part that we move fromorigin to destination, from the
first pickup until the moment uhthe shipment reaches the last
customer, that we follow theseprotocols.
It's a science basically, alsoin the logistics side.
So we come up with theserequirements, we tell our
(10:29):
people, our team, we need toensure product integrity for the
entire process.
So we need to understand arethere temperature control that
are this do we need to take careof this from a temperature
control?
Do we need to make sure that issafe, that is secure?
What are the requirements ofthis type of goods we are
(10:51):
moving?
And based on that, we design thesolution that we are going to
provide to move this type ofgoods.
It's really a study.
We understand what are the needsof the customer, what are the
needs of the goods, and based onthat, we put together the
handling protocols that have tobe followed by everyone that is
going to deal with that type ofgood.
SPEAKER_03 (11:13):
Okay, so let's take the situation that John was
talking about where there mightbe a robotics part of a tool
that needs to be replaced, andit needs to replace, be replaced
rather quickly to get theprocess up and running again.
So, how would Cunagle handlethat?
SPEAKER_01 (11:32):
So we have different types of services that uh we can
offer to our customers.
So, in the case that John wasdescribing, we would use a time
critical service.
So a same-day delivery, asame-day pickup, we will talk to
the airlines.
Of course, this would move byair freight.
That's the fastest solution,unless the piece we have to
(11:54):
move, it's very close to thelocation uh where we have to
deliver.
If it is at the same country,maybe we can just move it with
the next drive out.
We will also look at thatsolution.
But in general, when you are infront of an urgency, you need to
use the fastest possiblesolution you have in place.
So you will go into a type of atime critical solution.
(12:16):
The idea is okay, what is thebest routing?
When is the next flight?
So we talk to the customer, whenis the piece rating?
The piece that I have to move,where is and when is ready?
And then I will need to do thefastest possible pickup.
Within one hour, we will havethe piece.
You deliver it at the airline onthe tarmac.
So you will deliver it umdirectly to the airline to
(12:39):
reduce the amount of people thatare going to touch the piece,
and then on the next flight, andthen there will be someone
waiting for the piece at thedestination airport to pick it
up.
If it has to be customs cleared,there will be uh probably a
pre-clearance process wheneverit's possible to speed up also
the customs clearance, and thenwe will go on and deliver it as
(13:00):
fast as possible.
In this type of situation, weare looking at uh hours, we are
not even looking at the days, weare really thinking about okay,
I need to deliver this in theshortest time possible.
That might take so no transferin the middle as fast as
possible, as direct as you can.
SPEAKER_03 (13:18):
Okay, so in this case, would the customer be the
manufacturer or the equipmentsupplier?
SPEAKER_01 (13:24):
It will be whoever has the spare parts.
So in this case, the tool has tobe replaced.
So it will be uh whoever isproviding uh the spare parts to
replace the the tool.
SPEAKER_03 (13:34):
You're not necessarily just long distance,
you can be short distance aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (13:38):
Yeah, when when you talk about uh critical solution,
if the piece is a couple ofhours away, it might be faster
to drive it than actually to flyit.
Because you know, when you haveto fly something, you need to
see okay, when is the nextflight?
You need to arrive at theairport, you need to go through
all the handling at the airport.
So sometimes it's just faster toput it in the car and deliver
(14:01):
it, or you can look at theonboard courier type of solution
if the piece is small enoughthat you can actually fly with
the piece, so that is thefastest um at customs.
So you really need to look atwhat is the best solution and
the fastest solution in themoment you have to deal with
that specific type of situation.
SPEAKER_03 (14:20):
All right, let's talk a little bit about
something that's really criticalfor the advanced packaging side
of things, which is thematerials.
Um, John, why are materials foradvanced packaging so sensitive
compared to front end?
And what happens if those theconditions to transport and move
those materials aren't tightlycontrolled?
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
Yeah, I suppose what you're asking here is that
people would think of the backend more of the you know the
heavy or the heavy side oflifting of the of this process.
However, having said that,because we're dealing with
finite and and very small umdevices, that anything that's
that can be used or that can betransposed into the material, so
vibration, heat, temperature,humidity, but also with regard
(15:02):
to substrates, uh these you haveto also avoid UV light because
these have to be put in at acertain you know wavelength to
ensure that their heterogene iswhat's called heterogeneously,
that the packaging is actuallyyou know intact and is
completely isolating the deviceitself from any external heat,
transfers, cold transfer,vibration, etc.
(15:24):
etc.
But also um signals coming offthe PCB and whatever it's used
in.
So because of that, we're downto very, very finite levels, and
any variation in anything thatwe as human beings experience,
such as light, heat,temperature, that's transposed
directly into also the devicesthat we're using for our phones,
(15:44):
our laptops, our cars, etcetera, et cetera.
SPEAKER_03 (15:48):
Yeah, you know, I hear I live here in Arizona and
there's a lot of semiconductormanufacturing happening here.
And I can tell you thatdepending on the time of year,
we have massive extremes,especially of heat.
I think about when I just ordersomething online, if it happens
to be any kind of makeup, youknow, we're getting outside of
the semiconductor realm ofthings, but these are also
(16:10):
things that are sensitive totemperature and heat.
Wine.
My husband does a wine club, andin the summer we don't order
wine because we never know howit's going to arrive.
So I think the same thing istrue of these semiconductor
devices and the materials usedto build them, just making sure
that they are stable during thattransport.
SPEAKER_01 (16:33):
So when we talk about this type of materials, we
know that they are verysensitive to environmental
factors.
So we need to prevent and weneed to make sure that we know,
as you said, the condition atthe origin and destination and
during transit.
So, as you said, if I am, forexample, in Dubai, it's going to
(16:55):
be different than if I am inAmsterdam, especially in certain
time of the year.
And we are able to provideadvanced packaging.
So, based on that, we willdecide what to deploy an active
or passive temperature controlsolution.
So you have actually type ofpackaging that can control the
(17:15):
temperature and that can makesure that during the entire
shipment, the package stays atthe temperature that is
required.
So it's not only about deployingthe right packaging, but it's
also about using the rightmonitoring solution.
And we can offer sensors thatmonitor humidity, temperature.
(17:37):
Um so then monitor even light,because you know that this type
of material can be verysensitive to light as well.
So we really are going to uhmake sure that uh what we are
shipping is going to beprotected from all of these uh
possible excursion during the umthe shipment.
(17:58):
On top of that, we have a sensorthat monitor it, and then we
have a 24-7 setup control towerthat is going to receive an
alert if something is deviatingfrom what we are expecting.
So let's say that during thetransit I have a problem in the
truck and uh the temperature uhuh is not maintained.
(18:20):
My team will receive an alertand we can uh get in touch with
the tracker and tell them, okay,you need to intervene because
there is a deviation.
And you know, maybe a couple ofminutes is okay if you have to
turn on again the machine thatis controlling the temperature,
but a couple of hours could beum a disaster.
(18:40):
You might end up having to throwaway the entire shipment.
So we put all this solution inplace to make sure that during
the entire shipment we knowexactly what is happening, and
then we can intervene ifsomething is not going as
planned.
SPEAKER_03 (18:58):
So that's advanced packaging for advanced packages,
that's really meta.
Yes, yes, yes, exactly.
So kind of continuing along thatline when you're talking about
the handling and transport, um,John, from your perspective,
what does discipline handlinglook like to protect these
materials from risk?
SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
That's kind of where we would have, I would say, our
most focus because unfortunatelywe're not living in the Star
Trek world where you can simplyjust say, beam me up, and the
part arrives at the location.
It does have to, you know, belifted by lifting equipment such
as fork trucks or cranes.
It does need to go on to thetrucks and you know, and vans,
(19:42):
it does have to do the last miledelivery.
So, what we try to do there isobviously we're working with the
local handlers, uh, but inloading and offloading to try to
ensure that they are giving itthe utmost care.
That could be something assimple as you know how they
operate the first truck, youknow, at what speed are they
actually lifting at?
You know, are they jerking itabout too much?
(20:03):
Is it is it moving around?
Are the tilt mechanisms incorrect place?
But also when we're moving partsfrom, say, the actual airline
itself and then putting it ontothe truck, one thing that is
something which people wouldoverlook a lot is that they will
actually lift the part and thendrop it in the ground, and then
the truck would arrive andthey'd lift it again and then
(20:23):
load it onto the truck.
So there's three impacts to theground along the way.
But if you lift it and the truckreverses under what you've
lifted, you only have one touchpoint now.
So anything we can do to removethat element and that variation
is what we work with.
Um, we spend a lot of time withthe handlers and obviously the
training there.
So Kunanagel has a quitecomprehensive semicon training
(20:47):
package that we use with all thehandlers themselves, and we've
also implemented our own ISOaudit as well to ensure that
everybody is what we callsemicon certified when they're
handling this equipment.
But I think Valentina would knowmore about that from the air
perspective.
SPEAKER_03 (21:03):
One of the things we wanted to focus here is not just
on the manufacturing equipment,but how are the devices packaged
themselves?
I mean, are they created in acertain way?
That's something I've neverreally thought about.
When a company like an OSAT issending the packaged devices
onto the final manufacturer,let's say to build a phone, how
(21:24):
are those parts packaged up?
SPEAKER_00 (21:26):
There would be one of three elements.
One is you would have a handcarry, um, which kind of would
go back to Valentina's pointearlier.
That could be a very importantand all literary's next flight
out.
We have to get it there as quickas possible.
So we would use our quick ummethodology there.
So that literally a hand carry,these could be high IP devices
that are actually on the wafers,so we're still shipping the
wafers in the food.
(21:48):
It could also be that you have anumber of different foods
together on a pallet, but thenregardless of what you're doing,
you still have to lift thatpallet because the fruits
themselves are quite heavybecause they're sealed against
all kinds of light heattemperature.
And then we have that sealed,and that's sealed again, and
it's sealed again in the crate.
So even though the device mightonly weigh a couple of grams
(22:09):
when you go to ship them toprotect it from the light heat,
air humidity going from sayIreland in the summertime, which
is 18 degrees, to Arizona in thesummertime, which is 44 degrees.
I'm using seat here, obviously,you need to make sure that
everything is wrapped andthermally isolated as well.
So you're always going to bedealing in at least kilos in
(22:31):
excess of 30 to 40 kilos, youwill need some kind of handling
equipment to move that.
SPEAKER_03 (22:36):
Okay, I just wanted to clarify that because I'd
really never thought about that.
Okay, so we know wafers aretransported in foops, so we're
bundling foops together andpalletizing them and keeping
that, you know, reducing thevibration and all that.
What about when it comes to anactual package device?
They're not transported in foopsonce they're off the wafer,
(22:57):
right?
We're talking about, let's say,a shipment of microcontrollers
or you know, uh of CPUs.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
How are they moved?
Yeah, it's it's back again tothe same idea of critical mass.
You're not going to move onemicrocontroller because then
it's going to be six grams, andyou that's going to be the most
expensive microcontrollershipment in the world.
So, again, for from the youknow, whether it's a um a
high-end Intel chip or ahigh-end AMD chip or you know,
(23:26):
one of these many other um, youknow, Snapdragon chips or
whatever, you will try to shipas many as possible to keep
costs.
Obviously, cost is a big factorhere when we're using air, but
no matter what methodology youuse, you will try to ensure that
you're shipping the maximumamount.
So you very rarely have packagesyou know that are other under
you know half a kilo.
So you will be moving a lot ofthis equipment, and again, it's
(23:48):
placed on a pallet, which is aULD.
So even though it can be thesize of your thumb, it still has
to go on a plane, but it stillhas to have the packaging.
So kind of if you think of itlike a cake, you bake your cake,
it's it looks fabulous, it'sit's in the bakery, but it has
to get to your house.
So you wrap it, you put ribbonson it, you put it in a bag, you
(24:08):
put it in another bag, and thenjust to be sure, you you know,
you might put it on a piece ofcardboard.
So now you know your lovely cakegoes from half a kilo to two
kilos just in the packagingalone to protect it.
SPEAKER_03 (24:19):
And you have to make sure not to mess up the frosting
or the decorations.
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
There you go, because that's where the
handling comes in, you see.
You know, if you're walking andyou're walking, that's
vibration, and you go from theshop to the Arizona Heat, by the
time you get to your car, it'smelted.
It's melted.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (24:37):
So, Valentina, this is where your work comes in.
Um, how do you plan routes tominimize the risk?
Well, we've talked already alittle bit about transport modes
and distance, air, land, andsea, based on how far it has to
go, how quickly it has to bethere.
But what if we're talking aboutminimizing the um actual
(24:59):
vibration, temperature extremes,all of that?
How do you take that intoaccount when you're deciding how
to get something from point A topoint B?
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
So it's uh it's very clear.
I mean, the more direct you go,the more you will minimize the
touch point.
If there is a possibility tohave a direct flight, for
example, that would be thesafest choice, let's say, to
keep the shipment as the mostsafe to make sure that basically
you are not going to expose theshipment too many variables.
(25:32):
Okay.
So we have to plan the route.
When it's an emergency, it's adifferent protocol.
You know, you receive a request,everybody is stressed,
especially on the customer side,they call you, they are in an
emergency, and you have tointervene.
So at that point, the route isplanned based on the moment.
(25:53):
Okay, what is my best solutionnow?
When you have a more stablesituation, we have um a route
planning that takes a bit moretime than a few seconds, let's
say, let's say.
So we have tools that are goingto support this.
So we have flight matrix tools,we have tools that can uh do
(26:13):
predictive analytics, that canstudy um historical data, and
then based on that, it will tellyou okay, for your shipment, for
this type of shipment, the bestrouting is this one.
And based on that, we thendiscuss uh what is needed.
Basically, what are the risks weneed to control, what are the
(26:34):
extreme climates that we aregoing to encounter, are there
congested hubs we should avoid?
This also is based on the timeof the year.
You might imagine that shippingat Christmas is very different
than shipping in March.
You know, it's it's verydifferent.
So, based on that and on all thetools that we have um on our
(26:57):
side, we will decide the bestrouting for the time of the year
the shipment is happening.
And then we will discuss, ofcourse, with the customer what
is the transit time that isrequired.
So you might imagine that thecustomer is going to come to us
and say, I need it in 24 hours,I need it in 48 hours.
(27:18):
Based on that, the costs mightalso change.
So you need to discuss with thecustomer, okay, what is the
urgency on the shipment?
What is the priority for you?
Is that it arrives in one day,is that it arrives in two days,
or do you want to save somemoney as well?
So sometimes it's not only aboutfast and uh the most direct
(27:40):
routing, it's also about okay,what is the customer's need?
Because sometimes they mightneed it tomorrow, but sometimes
they might need it in one week.
And if the material is not toosensitive to extreme
temperature, you might find abetter solution.
So we really, really uh look atthe shipments together with the
customer, and we decide the besttransportation mode for them.
(28:04):
So it's going to be air freight,it's going to be sea freight,
it's going to be road freight,or it's going to be an
emergency, like we discussedbefore.
So, based on that, we try tomitigate all the risk and we
will establish what is the bestroute and the best mode for the
customer situation.
SPEAKER_03 (28:24):
Apart from emergency situations, how long does this
planning take with a customer?
Is this something where they canjust call you and you put all of
this together, or is thisrequire like meetings?
SPEAKER_01 (28:37):
No, no, we have tools.
We have tools that areavailable.
So theoretically, you could sendme an email after this meeting,
and I would be able in a coupleof uh minutes to tell you what
is the best routing for yourshipment.
It's a tool that gets the datafrom all the sources we have.
So we know what is the nextpossible flight, we know
(28:58):
everything.
So what we need to know from youis when do you need it, when is
it ready?
And what is the requirement ofyour shipment?
Based on that, we can providethe best routing.
So it's not four days, it'sreally something you can do in a
couple of minutes.
SPEAKER_03 (29:15):
Okay, so they don't need to really be planning way
ahead when they're considering abig shipment.
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
What is important then is the capacity.
So again, when they need it,it's very important because of
course you have uh certainflights, the dimension of the
shipment will play a role.
Okay.
So you are not going to be theonly one shipping today.
There, so it's a bit like whenyou are buying your uh airplane
(29:42):
ticket.
So you might find a lot offlights available, a lot of uh
seats available, but you mightbe at Christmas if you don't
plan it uh six months before,you might not fly.
So it's a bit the same.
It all depends on the dimensionof your shipment.
If you have to move uh what Johnwas saying a small package of
(30:02):
two kilos, it's much easier toplan than uh uh a 20-ton
shipment.
So it really depends on theshipment size as well.
SPEAKER_03 (30:14):
All right, so John, now with your semiconductor
engineering hat on.
Okay, so let's say they noticedthat a device that was tested
before it shipped that wasintact now is gonna fail.
So how do they determine whetherit was something before it was
shipped or that a device failedbecause of the shipping or
(30:36):
logistics process?
SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
This ties back into kind of what Valentina was
saying about being able tomonitor the ship into along the
way.
So if we know, you know, whichwe will know that they're not
gonna ship faulty productsbecause then you have what's
called a DOA dead on arrival.
So we know the product wasworking before it was shipped.
So that's kind of a no-brainer,and it gets there that it's not.
But what we can do is we canlook back to the data logs of
(30:59):
whatever methodology we've usedto ship, but it's air, C or
road, and then we can seewhether any impacts, was there
any excessive g force, um, youknow, was there excessive
vibration, was it exposed tolight?
By looking at that, we can thensee along the way of its journey
from point A to point B, betweenthose two points, we know it was
(31:20):
working, then it wasn't working.
We can then kind ofretrospectively look back and
see was there anything thatwould have pushed this
particular device out of itscomfort zone.
It could have been uhheartbreaking, it could have
been vibration.
Vibration is a big one.
If you don't use air righttrucks, for instance, you know,
you get a lot of vibration.
So imagine sitting in a car withno dampening or no shocks or no
(31:42):
shock absorbers, it's gonna bequite a painful ride at the end
of the day.
So that's where we would lookback to the data logs to
understand was there somethingthat we couldn't control, could
be caused by, for instance, um,weather.
There's quite a lot of you knowstorms going on around Europe at
the moment.
So it could have been somethingthere could have happened.
It could be hard breaking, couldbe going into a corner too fast,
(32:03):
and its hit mechanisms go off.
Or at the end of the day, itcould be that there was this a
failure, maybe in the ULD devicethat controls the temperature
and it left there in the 16.
If I came into Arizona at 46,and the minute the back of the
plane comes down, suddenlythere's 30 degree air coming in,
and that will give a hugethermal coefficient of
(32:23):
expansion, and that could damagethe device as well.
SPEAKER_03 (32:26):
So you can track or test for these different
logistic lapses along the way,yes.
Right.
Okay, so you wouldn't be testingthe device along the way, the
device gets tested before it'sput into its final equipment.
Correct.
Um and then they're like, ohwell, this one's broken and it
wasn't shipped broken, so now weneed to find out where along the
way.
SPEAKER_00 (32:46):
How it got broken.
Let's go back to the famouscake.
You've picked it up from yourshop, you saw it, it's grace.
You're on your way home and youopen the package, and the cake
is in bits.
And then, you know, yourchildren or your partner kind of
goes, Well, did you take thatlast call or a bit too fast
because you were too excitedwith the birthday cake?
You have to look at from point Ato point B where were your
(33:08):
failure paths?
And in our case, it could beanything from the handling to
the air to the um, you know, theplane to the device itself being
uh vibrated while it was on umthe incorrect methodology of
shipping, and not an air righttruck as an example.
It could have been exposed tolight.
Um we you know, we don't know.
Maybe uh customs did aninspection and customs decided
(33:30):
they want to get into the box,so they open the box.
SPEAKER_03 (33:33):
Hate it when that happens.
You get that little note insideyour suitcase, you know, customs
has inspected, and you're like,no, no, you shouldn't have
opened it.
Once something shows up and it'sfailed, how important is it to
understand how it failed or whyit failed?
SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
Yeah, the reason for that is I mean, obviously we we
would have our own, say, qualitysafety health environment was
called Cyw She, but we would do,you know, one of the many
different quality uh failureproblems, such as an 80, we
would do that.
Now the reason for finding outwhere it failed is not for
finger pointing to say, oh, itwas the handler, oh, it was the
truck driver, oh, it was, Iwon't say the pilot of the
(34:10):
plane, because if he's aproblem, we have a different
problem.
But it's to understand exactlyhow we can improve the process
with our partner at thatparticular location.
And it's about evolving thewhole time the process to make
sure that it's more smooth, tomake sure that it's you know
better, that the people are youknow really understanding what
happened on that day.
(34:31):
It could be, let's just saythere's a new fortress driver,
and things are chaotic, and hehad to unload, you know,
whatever he had to handle, whatparticular part he didn't
realize it was a semicon part,and he just got through the
screening we had, and then wewould work with the local
partners to ensure that.
So it's it's less about fingerpointing and more about
(34:51):
resolution and improving thewhole time, um, you know, and
just adapting and adopting newmethodologies because semicon
moves very fast, so we'reconstantly having to update uh
working methodologies.
SPEAKER_03 (35:03):
Um, Valentina, are there tools that you're piloting
to give customers visibility umor predictive insights?
SPEAKER_01 (35:12):
Yes, we are always piloting new tools.
So uh we are always looking uhinto the newest smart sensor,
but we also develop our ownsolution.
So uh we are always going to belaunching new digital tools.
So we talk about smart labels, asmart sensor that can track
(35:32):
temperature, humidity, shock,real time.
Um we have um tools that canpredict and forecast along the
routing what can happen.
So a bit what what you werediscussing now with John,
sometimes it's not even aboutfinding where uh the the fault
stands, but it's to say, okay,we notice that here something
(35:56):
always happens.
Why?
So what can we do?
Maybe we need to review thepackaging, maybe we need to talk
to the shipper, maybe there arethings on both sides that can be
done.
In our company, we are alwayslooking for the newest tool.
And yes, we are working onsomething new now.
I cannot tell you too much, butsoon we will always be releasing
(36:18):
new digital tools, a newinnovative tool that can support
all our customers, being them onthe semiconductor side, on the
cloud side, whatever are thetype of goods we are shipping,
we will always be looking at theuh newest digital tools that can
support the shipment.
SPEAKER_03 (36:36):
When you're working with OSATs, what are they
looking for when qualifying alogistics partner?
SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
Each OSAT will have different variables depending on
what they're involved in.
Are they involved in thesubstrates, you know, wire
bonding, the die cutting?
So they all have differentvariables.
But at the end of the day, ifyou take a helicopter view on
what they're looking at, whatthey really want is right first
time.
They just want whatever they'reshipping to get there on time,
(37:05):
in time, and with the qualitythat they expect their equipment
to arrive on, which is brandnew.
So they really want what I justcaptioned it like right first
time.
No excuses.
We need it there at this point,at this location, with 100%
quality.
SPEAKER_03 (37:21):
So all of these things that we've been talking
about, most of those situationswe don't want to see happen at
all.
SPEAKER_00 (37:28):
Correct.
SPEAKER_03 (37:29):
Right.
So right first time meansthey're looking for someone with
some experience.
They understand the end-to-endsituation, like we've been
talking about, and that whatthey need is to know that their
logistics partner is fully awareof what can happen in the
semiconductor industry whenyou're moving anything from
(37:49):
equipment to devices to wafersto materials, and that they can
count on their logistics partnerto minimize all of those risks
and make sure that they gettheir products on time.
So, Valentina, CUNA Novel has aproduct.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat semicon chain product?
SPEAKER_01 (38:10):
Sure.
So, based on uh what uh Johnjust described, we have decided
to uh create our own qualitylabel.
So semico chain is a qualitylabel, it's something that
didn't exist before in themarket.
What does it mean for thecustomer?
We have uh um a framework forour uh team that they have to
(38:33):
follow.
So we identify where there is aneed, so we design the
semiconductor, we check uh umorigin and destination, so who
is going to work with thesemiconductor shipment?
And based on that, we train ourteam so nobody um who has not
been trained can touch theshipment or work with the
(38:56):
shipment at all.
So they are not going to make abooking, they are not going to
deal with the semiconductorcustomer at all.
But besides that, uh so we wetry to understand is the
shipment going into thewarehouse?
So, what are the storageconditions?
Um, is our warehouse equipped tohandle this type of goods?
And then who are the trackersthat are going to move this
(39:20):
shipment?
As John was saying, are they umair ride trucks?
Because otherwise forget it,they cannot move the shipment.
So we are going to auditbasically every station in our
semiconductor network that isgoing to deal with the shipment.
And this auditing is not done,of course, by me or uh by John,
(39:42):
it's done by our qualitydepartment that is an
independent department inside ofKunen Nagel that is going to
audit all our stations.
There is this program that werun, so everybody in the station
has to be trained.
They need to know also how todeal with the sensors, how to
handle the packages, everything,what to book with the airlines
(40:04):
and what to book with thesubcontractor, because sometimes
booking the wrong type ofservice can have um very bad
consequences.
This process is not that we doit once and then forget it.
We have to rerun this uh umauditing and this training every
two years.
So we are going to checkeveryone in our network are they
(40:26):
still trained?
Are they still the same peopleworking?
If there are new people joining,have they been trained?
So we are going to rerun theentire process every two years.
And if there is something thatis not working as we expect, we
will make also an auditing ofthe station and we will make
sure that the process isfollowed exactly as we expect.
(40:49):
So it's a quality label that wehave launched.
We are very proud of it, and uhit works quite well.
SPEAKER_03 (40:57):
It's been really great talking to you both and
learning about the importance oflogistics for the real overall
reliability of a device.
So, what would be each of youwould be one key message
packaging and test professionalsshould remember about logistics?
SPEAKER_00 (41:13):
Um, we're the best partner that you never know you
had.
Or, you know, we should beunseen and unheard.
Your packages should justarrive, your you know, your
parts should just arrive, yourequipment should just arrive.
SPEAKER_03 (41:25):
Yes, I imagine what we've talked about could give
some people some anxiety, right?
SPEAKER_00 (41:30):
Yes, it can.
And this is the problem withshining a light on it.
Now we're shining, you know,another possible break in the
chain, but that that's why it'scalled a supply chain, because
we link the front and the back.
We everything is linkedtogether, so we keep those links
going.
So, but people don't realizethat we're there, so kind of a
hidden force.
SPEAKER_03 (41:48):
Right.
So that's what we want.
We want to remain a hiddenforce, right?
We don't want people to worry.
SPEAKER_01 (41:53):
Valentina, uh, from my side, I think uh what I would
uh like to remind everyone isthat logistic is not just there
to move things from A to B.
We are not only the supportfunction, if we are included in
the conversation with the uh theshipper, with the consignee, and
even with the manufacturer, wecan uh enable reliability.
(42:17):
So the more you let us know, themore hidden we will stay,
because then you won't hear ofus anymore.
But don't forget, we are notjust a support function, we need
to be part of the supply chain.
SPEAKER_03 (42:31):
Excellent.
Okay.
Well, I want to thank you bothfor joining me today and giving
me something to think about.
Um, so thank you very much.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (42:41):
Thank you very much for having us.
SPEAKER_03 (42:46):
Hey everyone, we are right smack dab in the middle of
event season.
So next time on the 3D Insightspodcast, we'll begin our
coverage of iMaps InternationalSymposium, which is taking place
this week in San Diego, as wellas Semicon West, which takes
place next week in Phoenix.
We'll be recording live at theshows and bringing you episodes
after the fact.
So be sure to follow to getthose automatic downloads right
(43:09):
to your phone or on ApplePodcasts, Spotify, or wherever
you get your podcasts.
Thanks for listening.
There's lots more to come, sotune in next time to the 3D
Insights Podcast.
The 3D Insights Podcast is aproduction of 3D Insights LLC.
This episode of the 3D Insights podcast is sponsored
by Kuhn Noggle.
You can trust Semicon Logisticsby Kune Noggle to navigate even
the most demanding supply chainchallenges.
Whether you move raw materials,finished chips, or sensitive
capital equipment, everyshipment is backed by the
Semicon Chain Certified Network.
Discover more atwww.coonandogle.com.
(00:24):
That's K-U-E-H-N-E-N-A-G-E-L dotcom.
SPEAKER_02 (00:38):
Hi there.
I'm Francoise von Trapp, andthis is the 3D Insights Podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (00:49):
Hi everyone.
We've been talking a lot latelyabout the importance of
semiconductor devicereliability, especially as they
become more complex and costly.
And up until now, um, theconversation has mostly revolved
around inspection and metrologyof the devices themselves and
processes used to build them.
But have you ever consideredwhat happens to the wafers, the
(01:12):
dyes, the final product oncethey're being shipped for final
manufacture or in whateverproduct they're going to be?
So today we're talking aboutthat unseen force behind
semiconductor devicereliability, and that is a
secure and reliable supplychain.
Joining me for today'sconversation is John Desmond and
(01:35):
Valentina Aplenalp of CUNANOGL.
Welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Thank you very much for having us.
SPEAKER_03 (01:40):
Thank you.
So before we dive into thediscussion, can you just each
tell our listeners about yourbackground and your specific
roles at CUNANOGLE?
SPEAKER_00 (01:49):
Yeah, thank you very much.
I suppose I go back tooriginally having left
university with a degree inelectronic and electrical
engineering.
I spent 10 years in thesemiconductor arena, moves on
from there to an OAM companywhere doing repairs, BGA and a
ball level, grid rate on mobilephones, and then finally the
last 10 years in logistics.
(02:09):
So it's kind of come full circlefrom where I graduated all the
ways around to logistics of theparts that I was designing and
working in back in thesemiconducts.
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
Well, I can see where that would be helpful at
Cuna Nagle to have somebody whois a specialist in and knows
end-to-end what happens to builda semiconductor device to kind
of identify the places where youneed to be extra careful.
So I'm glad we're going to havea really good conversation about
that.
How about you, Valentina?
SPEAKER_01 (02:40):
Uh I have been with Kunenagel for 10 years.
And in my last 10 years, I havealways been working in uh
product and product development.
So I have worked uh on severaltypes of uh uh industries, and
uh lately I have been uh umtaking care of the semical
(03:01):
logistics product for the airlogistics team in Kunanagle.
So nice talking about this topictoday with you.
SPEAKER_03 (03:09):
Okay, and so just to clarify, when you're talking
about products, you're talkingabout Kunanagle's products to
provide those logisticssolutions.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Yes, we call them products.
Uh, you could say they areservices, it's service designed
for specific type of industries.
So we work with customers, withuh people like John that come
from the industry, and wedevelop uh services that are uh
customized to a certain type ofindustry, like for semiconductor
(03:40):
business.
Yeah, we call them product inour company, but it's active
services, yes.
SPEAKER_03 (03:46):
Okay, so one of the things that I've noticed is
people only notice logisticswhen they fail.
And then semiconductors,handling and transport directly
impact the back-end yield andreliability of those devices and
products.
So now, John, from your fab andback-end experience, can you
walk us through that journeythat a semiconductor device
(04:08):
takes before reaching final testand maybe identify some of the
critical points where logisticscould impact yield and
reliability?
SPEAKER_00 (04:16):
Yeah, sure.
It's actually a very goodquestion.
I suppose one of the things wehave to look at is we take a
helicopter view that the actualback-end process starts from
when you have the disc that mostpeople would know, which has all
the chips actually on the wafer.
And the first part of that wouldobviously be cutting and dicing.
And then there are many stepsafter that along the way, where
it goes from cutting and dicing,you die attached with wire
(04:38):
bonding, and there's a few extrasteps along the way before it
becomes the chip that everybodysees.
But within those, say, maybe 10processes along the way, there's
a multitude of you know, capitalequipment, there's a multitude
of um of spare parts being used,there's a multitude of wire
bonding, substrates there thatare indigenous to that
particular part of the processthat we're using.
(05:00):
And each one of those touchpoints, a bit like baking a cake
when you move from you know partA to part B to going into the
oven, wherever you have a changein the process, that's where a
potential failure can occur.
SPEAKER_03 (05:14):
And these process steps can actually take place in
different locations that requireyou to move those parts.
SPEAKER_00 (05:21):
That would be correct.
And that's a good observationthat a lot of people wouldn't
realize.
So, on average, a wafer chipwould probably move around the
globe five times as it goes fromvarious aspects because there's
no one place that's actually bigenough to do the whole
end-to-end process of a chip.
So, as such, also you havedifferent capital equipment
required for each of thesesteps.
(05:43):
So you have some specialized uhcompanies that are only doing
this OSAT packaging, sotherefore they have their own,
you know, basically cities wherethese chips come in and then
they reach their final assemblyand testing before they move on
to the consumer.
So once it does that, once thechip moves into these locations,
it moves back out again.
So there's constant movement ofthese chips, it doesn't just
(06:05):
happen in one location.
SPEAKER_03 (06:07):
What about TSMC?
SPEAKER_00 (06:09):
So TSMC obviously won a huge company, but TSMC
would obviously use also OSAS aswell.
TSMC would be considered afoundry.
SPEAKER_03 (06:18):
They are doing some advanced packaging, the very
advanced packaging.
SPEAKER_00 (06:21):
Yes, and that's the thing.
It's like having the differencebetween, you know, um a car with
four wheels and your you know uhhigh-end automotive.
You know, not everybody needsthe Formula One race car.
Um, and it's the same with uhconsumer industry.
You know, you do have say mobilephones, but the chips using
mobile phones wouldn't be thesame that's needed in, say, a
(06:41):
quantum device or in say um um aPC or a laptop.
They all have, you know, what wesay in Ireland is horses for
courses.
So it depends on what the courseis, depending on how you want
your horse.
Do you want a jumper?
Do you want a runner?
Do you want a sprinter?
It's the same for chips.
SPEAKER_03 (06:58):
Okay, so can you maybe illustrate this with a
story of when a logistics issuecould have derailed the back-end
performance of a device?
SPEAKER_00 (07:08):
Yeah, it's uh it's the classic example of process
failure.
Like in engineering, you look atthe touch points, and there are
various elements along the waythat can be catastrophic
failures, and that's when theprocess itself comes to a stop,
regardless of what the processis.
So if we just take, say, um Ijust pick one die attach, is
when you actually attach the dieto the back of a substrate.
(07:28):
So there is capex there used,you know, to literally pick the
pieces that are sawn off theoriginal uh wafer.
Now that's all done with youknow millimeter and nanometer
precision.
So this has to be done byobviously a robotic device.
Now, there's always going to bemoving parts with any kind of
robotic device.
These things do eventually fail.
(07:50):
There is uh you know MTBSmeantime between failures and so
on.
So you have to allow for this,you have to change out these
certain parts.
Again, using an everydayexample, it's like your car.
Your car works, but eventuallythe tire will go flat or the oil
will run out.
Or in some cases, today thebattery needs to be charged, and
at that point is a processfailure.
(08:11):
And in this kind of an industrywith semicon, it's usually
capex, and it's where that pieceof capex fails, that would be a
catastrophic failure that wouldstop the whole process.
SPEAKER_03 (08:22):
And logistics can impact that, whether or not that
part is replaced on time, orwhether the part gets there is
all intact itself.
SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
That's correct.
So obviously, say the engineeron site will be looking to get
that piece of equipment back upand running as as quickly as
possible because you knowseconds is a lot of money in the
semiconduc industry.
So when they want that part tobe there on time, so they will
know there could be acatastrophic failure where they
don't know it's going to happen.
They want it now, they want thepart ship now.
(08:55):
And it could be that they have amaintenance that just needs to
run.
And if the part isn't therewaiting, then that's when that
piece of equipment doesn't workand the whole process comes to a
basically a stop.
SPEAKER_03 (09:07):
Okay.
Valentina, how does Cunanagletranslate these back-end
requirements into logisticspractice, especially when we're
talking about securingway-for-guide transfers and um
ISO class handling?
SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
So, what we do at Kunanagel, we do exactly what we
are doing today.
We talk to customers, we try tounderstand what are their needs,
we try to understand what theyhave to move and what are the
requirements of what we aremoving.
And based on that, we thendefine the semiconduction.
So that's how we come up for asupply chain solution in
(09:45):
logistics to take care basicallyof the particular needs of, in
this case, the wafer or thediet.
And we try to basically uh putall of these requirements
together and come up withhandling protocols that actually
meet the ISO requirements.
(10:06):
So we need to ensure inlogistics that whatever we do,
every part that we move fromorigin to destination, from the
first pickup until the moment uhthe shipment reaches the last
customer, that we follow theseprotocols.
It's a science basically, alsoin the logistics side.
So we come up with theserequirements, we tell our
(10:29):
people, our team, we need toensure product integrity for the
entire process.
So we need to understand arethere temperature control that
are this do we need to take careof this from a temperature
control?
Do we need to make sure that issafe, that is secure?
What are the requirements ofthis type of goods we are
(10:51):
moving?
And based on that, we design thesolution that we are going to
provide to move this type ofgoods.
It's really a study.
We understand what are the needsof the customer, what are the
needs of the goods, and based onthat, we put together the
handling protocols that have tobe followed by everyone that is
going to deal with that type ofgood.
SPEAKER_03 (11:13):
Okay, so let's take the situation that John was
talking about where there mightbe a robotics part of a tool
that needs to be replaced, andit needs to replace, be replaced
rather quickly to get theprocess up and running again.
So, how would Cunagle handlethat?
SPEAKER_01 (11:32):
So we have different types of services that uh we can
offer to our customers.
So, in the case that John wasdescribing, we would use a time
critical service.
So a same-day delivery, asame-day pickup, we will talk to
the airlines.
Of course, this would move byair freight.
That's the fastest solution,unless the piece we have to
(11:54):
move, it's very close to thelocation uh where we have to
deliver.
If it is at the same country,maybe we can just move it with
the next drive out.
We will also look at thatsolution.
But in general, when you are infront of an urgency, you need to
use the fastest possiblesolution you have in place.
So you will go into a type of atime critical solution.
(12:16):
The idea is okay, what is thebest routing?
When is the next flight?
So we talk to the customer, whenis the piece rating?
The piece that I have to move,where is and when is ready?
And then I will need to do thefastest possible pickup.
Within one hour, we will havethe piece.
You deliver it at the airline onthe tarmac.
So you will deliver it umdirectly to the airline to
(12:39):
reduce the amount of people thatare going to touch the piece,
and then on the next flight, andthen there will be someone
waiting for the piece at thedestination airport to pick it
up.
If it has to be customs cleared,there will be uh probably a
pre-clearance process wheneverit's possible to speed up also
the customs clearance, and thenwe will go on and deliver it as
(13:00):
fast as possible.
In this type of situation, weare looking at uh hours, we are
not even looking at the days, weare really thinking about okay,
I need to deliver this in theshortest time possible.
That might take so no transferin the middle as fast as
possible, as direct as you can.
SPEAKER_03 (13:18):
Okay, so in this case, would the customer be the
manufacturer or the equipmentsupplier?
SPEAKER_01 (13:24):
It will be whoever has the spare parts.
So in this case, the tool has tobe replaced.
So it will be uh whoever isproviding uh the spare parts to
replace the the tool.
SPEAKER_03 (13:34):
You're not necessarily just long distance,
you can be short distance aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (13:38):
Yeah, when when you talk about uh critical solution,
if the piece is a couple ofhours away, it might be faster
to drive it than actually to flyit.
Because you know, when you haveto fly something, you need to
see okay, when is the nextflight?
You need to arrive at theairport, you need to go through
all the handling at the airport.
So sometimes it's just faster toput it in the car and deliver
(14:01):
it, or you can look at theonboard courier type of solution
if the piece is small enoughthat you can actually fly with
the piece, so that is thefastest um at customs.
So you really need to look atwhat is the best solution and
the fastest solution in themoment you have to deal with
that specific type of situation.
SPEAKER_03 (14:20):
All right, let's talk a little bit about
something that's really criticalfor the advanced packaging side
of things, which is thematerials.
Um, John, why are materials foradvanced packaging so sensitive
compared to front end?
And what happens if those theconditions to transport and move
those materials aren't tightlycontrolled?
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
Yeah, I suppose what you're asking here is that
people would think of the backend more of the you know the
heavy or the heavy side oflifting of the of this process.
However, having said that,because we're dealing with
finite and and very small umdevices, that anything that's
that can be used or that can betransposed into the material, so
vibration, heat, temperature,humidity, but also with regard
(15:02):
to substrates, uh these you haveto also avoid UV light because
these have to be put in at acertain you know wavelength to
ensure that their heterogene iswhat's called heterogeneously,
that the packaging is actuallyyou know intact and is
completely isolating the deviceitself from any external heat,
transfers, cold transfer,vibration, etc.
(15:24):
etc.
But also um signals coming offthe PCB and whatever it's used
in.
So because of that, we're downto very, very finite levels, and
any variation in anything thatwe as human beings experience,
such as light, heat,temperature, that's transposed
directly into also the devicesthat we're using for our phones,
(15:44):
our laptops, our cars, etcetera, et cetera.
SPEAKER_03 (15:48):
Yeah, you know, I hear I live here in Arizona and
there's a lot of semiconductormanufacturing happening here.
And I can tell you thatdepending on the time of year,
we have massive extremes,especially of heat.
I think about when I just ordersomething online, if it happens
to be any kind of makeup, youknow, we're getting outside of
the semiconductor realm ofthings, but these are also
(16:10):
things that are sensitive totemperature and heat.
Wine.
My husband does a wine club, andin the summer we don't order
wine because we never know howit's going to arrive.
So I think the same thing istrue of these semiconductor
devices and the materials usedto build them, just making sure
that they are stable during thattransport.
SPEAKER_01 (16:33):
So when we talk about this type of materials, we
know that they are verysensitive to environmental
factors.
So we need to prevent and weneed to make sure that we know,
as you said, the condition atthe origin and destination and
during transit.
So, as you said, if I am, forexample, in Dubai, it's going to
(16:55):
be different than if I am inAmsterdam, especially in certain
time of the year.
And we are able to provideadvanced packaging.
So, based on that, we willdecide what to deploy an active
or passive temperature controlsolution.
So you have actually type ofpackaging that can control the
(17:15):
temperature and that can makesure that during the entire
shipment, the package stays atthe temperature that is
required.
So it's not only about deployingthe right packaging, but it's
also about using the rightmonitoring solution.
And we can offer sensors thatmonitor humidity, temperature.
(17:37):
Um so then monitor even light,because you know that this type
of material can be verysensitive to light as well.
So we really are going to uhmake sure that uh what we are
shipping is going to beprotected from all of these uh
possible excursion during the umthe shipment.
(17:58):
On top of that, we have a sensorthat monitor it, and then we
have a 24-7 setup control towerthat is going to receive an
alert if something is deviatingfrom what we are expecting.
So let's say that during thetransit I have a problem in the
truck and uh the temperature uhuh is not maintained.
(18:20):
My team will receive an alertand we can uh get in touch with
the tracker and tell them, okay,you need to intervene because
there is a deviation.
And you know, maybe a couple ofminutes is okay if you have to
turn on again the machine thatis controlling the temperature,
but a couple of hours could beum a disaster.
(18:40):
You might end up having to throwaway the entire shipment.
So we put all this solution inplace to make sure that during
the entire shipment we knowexactly what is happening, and
then we can intervene ifsomething is not going as
planned.
SPEAKER_03 (18:58):
So that's advanced packaging for advanced packages,
that's really meta.
Yes, yes, yes, exactly.
So kind of continuing along thatline when you're talking about
the handling and transport, um,John, from your perspective,
what does discipline handlinglook like to protect these
materials from risk?
SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
That's kind of where we would have, I would say, our
most focus because unfortunatelywe're not living in the Star
Trek world where you can simplyjust say, beam me up, and the
part arrives at the location.
It does have to, you know, belifted by lifting equipment such
as fork trucks or cranes.
It does need to go on to thetrucks and you know, and vans,
(19:42):
it does have to do the last miledelivery.
So, what we try to do there isobviously we're working with the
local handlers, uh, but inloading and offloading to try to
ensure that they are giving itthe utmost care.
That could be something assimple as you know how they
operate the first truck, youknow, at what speed are they
actually lifting at?
You know, are they jerking itabout too much?
(20:03):
Is it is it moving around?
Are the tilt mechanisms incorrect place?
But also when we're moving partsfrom, say, the actual airline
itself and then putting it ontothe truck, one thing that is
something which people wouldoverlook a lot is that they will
actually lift the part and thendrop it in the ground, and then
the truck would arrive andthey'd lift it again and then
(20:23):
load it onto the truck.
So there's three impacts to theground along the way.
But if you lift it and the truckreverses under what you've
lifted, you only have one touchpoint now.
So anything we can do to removethat element and that variation
is what we work with.
Um, we spend a lot of time withthe handlers and obviously the
training there.
So Kunanagel has a quitecomprehensive semicon training
(20:47):
package that we use with all thehandlers themselves, and we've
also implemented our own ISOaudit as well to ensure that
everybody is what we callsemicon certified when they're
handling this equipment.
But I think Valentina would knowmore about that from the air
perspective.
SPEAKER_03 (21:03):
One of the things we wanted to focus here is not just
on the manufacturing equipment,but how are the devices packaged
themselves?
I mean, are they created in acertain way?
That's something I've neverreally thought about.
When a company like an OSAT issending the packaged devices
onto the final manufacturer,let's say to build a phone, how
(21:24):
are those parts packaged up?
SPEAKER_00 (21:26):
There would be one of three elements.
One is you would have a handcarry, um, which kind of would
go back to Valentina's pointearlier.
That could be a very importantand all literary's next flight
out.
We have to get it there as quickas possible.
So we would use our quick ummethodology there.
So that literally a hand carry,these could be high IP devices
that are actually on the wafers,so we're still shipping the
wafers in the food.
(21:48):
It could also be that you have anumber of different foods
together on a pallet, but thenregardless of what you're doing,
you still have to lift thatpallet because the fruits
themselves are quite heavybecause they're sealed against
all kinds of light heattemperature.
And then we have that sealed,and that's sealed again, and
it's sealed again in the crate.
So even though the device mightonly weigh a couple of grams
(22:09):
when you go to ship them toprotect it from the light heat,
air humidity going from sayIreland in the summertime, which
is 18 degrees, to Arizona in thesummertime, which is 44 degrees.
I'm using seat here, obviously,you need to make sure that
everything is wrapped andthermally isolated as well.
So you're always going to bedealing in at least kilos in
(22:31):
excess of 30 to 40 kilos, youwill need some kind of handling
equipment to move that.
SPEAKER_03 (22:36):
Okay, I just wanted to clarify that because I'd
really never thought about that.
Okay, so we know wafers aretransported in foops, so we're
bundling foops together andpalletizing them and keeping
that, you know, reducing thevibration and all that.
What about when it comes to anactual package device?
They're not transported in foopsonce they're off the wafer,
(22:57):
right?
We're talking about, let's say,a shipment of microcontrollers
or you know, uh of CPUs.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
How are they moved?
Yeah, it's it's back again tothe same idea of critical mass.
You're not going to move onemicrocontroller because then
it's going to be six grams, andyou that's going to be the most
expensive microcontrollershipment in the world.
So, again, for from the youknow, whether it's a um a
high-end Intel chip or ahigh-end AMD chip or you know,
(23:26):
one of these many other um, youknow, Snapdragon chips or
whatever, you will try to shipas many as possible to keep
costs.
Obviously, cost is a big factorhere when we're using air, but
no matter what methodology youuse, you will try to ensure that
you're shipping the maximumamount.
So you very rarely have packagesyou know that are other under
you know half a kilo.
So you will be moving a lot ofthis equipment, and again, it's
(23:48):
placed on a pallet, which is aULD.
So even though it can be thesize of your thumb, it still has
to go on a plane, but it stillhas to have the packaging.
So kind of if you think of itlike a cake, you bake your cake,
it's it looks fabulous, it'sit's in the bakery, but it has
to get to your house.
So you wrap it, you put ribbonson it, you put it in a bag, you
(24:08):
put it in another bag, and thenjust to be sure, you you know,
you might put it on a piece ofcardboard.
So now you know your lovely cakegoes from half a kilo to two
kilos just in the packagingalone to protect it.
SPEAKER_03 (24:19):
And you have to make sure not to mess up the frosting
or the decorations.
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
There you go, because that's where the
handling comes in, you see.
You know, if you're walking andyou're walking, that's
vibration, and you go from theshop to the Arizona Heat, by the
time you get to your car, it'smelted.
It's melted.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (24:37):
So, Valentina, this is where your work comes in.
Um, how do you plan routes tominimize the risk?
Well, we've talked already alittle bit about transport modes
and distance, air, land, andsea, based on how far it has to
go, how quickly it has to bethere.
But what if we're talking aboutminimizing the um actual
(24:59):
vibration, temperature extremes,all of that?
How do you take that intoaccount when you're deciding how
to get something from point A topoint B?
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
So it's uh it's very clear.
I mean, the more direct you go,the more you will minimize the
touch point.
If there is a possibility tohave a direct flight, for
example, that would be thesafest choice, let's say, to
keep the shipment as the mostsafe to make sure that basically
you are not going to expose theshipment too many variables.
(25:32):
Okay.
So we have to plan the route.
When it's an emergency, it's adifferent protocol.
You know, you receive a request,everybody is stressed,
especially on the customer side,they call you, they are in an
emergency, and you have tointervene.
So at that point, the route isplanned based on the moment.
(25:53):
Okay, what is my best solutionnow?
When you have a more stablesituation, we have um a route
planning that takes a bit moretime than a few seconds, let's
say, let's say.
So we have tools that are goingto support this.
So we have flight matrix tools,we have tools that can uh do
(26:13):
predictive analytics, that canstudy um historical data, and
then based on that, it will tellyou okay, for your shipment, for
this type of shipment, the bestrouting is this one.
And based on that, we thendiscuss uh what is needed.
Basically, what are the risks weneed to control, what are the
(26:34):
extreme climates that we aregoing to encounter, are there
congested hubs we should avoid?
This also is based on the timeof the year.
You might imagine that shippingat Christmas is very different
than shipping in March.
You know, it's it's verydifferent.
So, based on that and on all thetools that we have um on our
(26:57):
side, we will decide the bestrouting for the time of the year
the shipment is happening.
And then we will discuss, ofcourse, with the customer what
is the transit time that isrequired.
So you might imagine that thecustomer is going to come to us
and say, I need it in 24 hours,I need it in 48 hours.
(27:18):
Based on that, the costs mightalso change.
So you need to discuss with thecustomer, okay, what is the
urgency on the shipment?
What is the priority for you?
Is that it arrives in one day,is that it arrives in two days,
or do you want to save somemoney as well?
So sometimes it's not only aboutfast and uh the most direct
(27:40):
routing, it's also about okay,what is the customer's need?
Because sometimes they mightneed it tomorrow, but sometimes
they might need it in one week.
And if the material is not toosensitive to extreme
temperature, you might find abetter solution.
So we really, really uh look atthe shipments together with the
customer, and we decide the besttransportation mode for them.
(28:04):
So it's going to be air freight,it's going to be sea freight,
it's going to be road freight,or it's going to be an
emergency, like we discussedbefore.
So, based on that, we try tomitigate all the risk and we
will establish what is the bestroute and the best mode for the
customer situation.
SPEAKER_03 (28:24):
Apart from emergency situations, how long does this
planning take with a customer?
Is this something where they canjust call you and you put all of
this together, or is thisrequire like meetings?
SPEAKER_01 (28:37):
No, no, we have tools.
We have tools that areavailable.
So theoretically, you could sendme an email after this meeting,
and I would be able in a coupleof uh minutes to tell you what
is the best routing for yourshipment.
It's a tool that gets the datafrom all the sources we have.
So we know what is the nextpossible flight, we know
(28:58):
everything.
So what we need to know from youis when do you need it, when is
it ready?
And what is the requirement ofyour shipment?
Based on that, we can providethe best routing.
So it's not four days, it'sreally something you can do in a
couple of minutes.
SPEAKER_03 (29:15):
Okay, so they don't need to really be planning way
ahead when they're considering abig shipment.
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
What is important then is the capacity.
So again, when they need it,it's very important because of
course you have uh certainflights, the dimension of the
shipment will play a role.
Okay.
So you are not going to be theonly one shipping today.
There, so it's a bit like whenyou are buying your uh airplane
(29:42):
ticket.
So you might find a lot offlights available, a lot of uh
seats available, but you mightbe at Christmas if you don't
plan it uh six months before,you might not fly.
So it's a bit the same.
It all depends on the dimensionof your shipment.
If you have to move uh what Johnwas saying a small package of
(30:02):
two kilos, it's much easier toplan than uh uh a 20-ton
shipment.
So it really depends on theshipment size as well.
SPEAKER_03 (30:14):
All right, so John, now with your semiconductor
engineering hat on.
Okay, so let's say they noticedthat a device that was tested
before it shipped that wasintact now is gonna fail.
So how do they determine whetherit was something before it was
shipped or that a device failedbecause of the shipping or
(30:36):
logistics process?
SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
This ties back into kind of what Valentina was
saying about being able tomonitor the ship into along the
way.
So if we know, you know, whichwe will know that they're not
gonna ship faulty productsbecause then you have what's
called a DOA dead on arrival.
So we know the product wasworking before it was shipped.
So that's kind of a no-brainer,and it gets there that it's not.
But what we can do is we canlook back to the data logs of
(30:59):
whatever methodology we've usedto ship, but it's air, C or
road, and then we can seewhether any impacts, was there
any excessive g force, um, youknow, was there excessive
vibration, was it exposed tolight?
By looking at that, we can thensee along the way of its journey
from point A to point B, betweenthose two points, we know it was
(31:20):
working, then it wasn't working.
We can then kind ofretrospectively look back and
see was there anything thatwould have pushed this
particular device out of itscomfort zone.
It could have been uhheartbreaking, it could have
been vibration.
Vibration is a big one.
If you don't use air righttrucks, for instance, you know,
you get a lot of vibration.
So imagine sitting in a car withno dampening or no shocks or no
(31:42):
shock absorbers, it's gonna bequite a painful ride at the end
of the day.
So that's where we would lookback to the data logs to
understand was there somethingthat we couldn't control, could
be caused by, for instance, um,weather.
There's quite a lot of you knowstorms going on around Europe at
the moment.
So it could have been somethingthere could have happened.
It could be hard breaking, couldbe going into a corner too fast,
(32:03):
and its hit mechanisms go off.
Or at the end of the day, itcould be that there was this a
failure, maybe in the ULD devicethat controls the temperature
and it left there in the 16.
If I came into Arizona at 46,and the minute the back of the
plane comes down, suddenlythere's 30 degree air coming in,
and that will give a hugethermal coefficient of
(32:23):
expansion, and that could damagethe device as well.
SPEAKER_03 (32:26):
So you can track or test for these different
logistic lapses along the way,yes.
Right.
Okay, so you wouldn't be testingthe device along the way, the
device gets tested before it'sput into its final equipment.
Correct.
Um and then they're like, ohwell, this one's broken and it
wasn't shipped broken, so now weneed to find out where along the
way.
SPEAKER_00 (32:46):
How it got broken.
Let's go back to the famouscake.
You've picked it up from yourshop, you saw it, it's grace.
You're on your way home and youopen the package, and the cake
is in bits.
And then, you know, yourchildren or your partner kind of
goes, Well, did you take thatlast call or a bit too fast
because you were too excitedwith the birthday cake?
You have to look at from point Ato point B where were your
(33:08):
failure paths?
And in our case, it could beanything from the handling to
the air to the um, you know, theplane to the device itself being
uh vibrated while it was on umthe incorrect methodology of
shipping, and not an air righttruck as an example.
It could have been exposed tolight.
Um we you know, we don't know.
Maybe uh customs did aninspection and customs decided
(33:30):
they want to get into the box,so they open the box.
SPEAKER_03 (33:33):
Hate it when that happens.
You get that little note insideyour suitcase, you know, customs
has inspected, and you're like,no, no, you shouldn't have
opened it.
Once something shows up and it'sfailed, how important is it to
understand how it failed or whyit failed?
SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
Yeah, the reason for that is I mean, obviously we we
would have our own, say, qualitysafety health environment was
called Cyw She, but we would do,you know, one of the many
different quality uh failureproblems, such as an 80, we
would do that.
Now the reason for finding outwhere it failed is not for
finger pointing to say, oh, itwas the handler, oh, it was the
truck driver, oh, it was, Iwon't say the pilot of the
(34:10):
plane, because if he's aproblem, we have a different
problem.
But it's to understand exactlyhow we can improve the process
with our partner at thatparticular location.
And it's about evolving thewhole time the process to make
sure that it's more smooth, tomake sure that it's you know
better, that the people are youknow really understanding what
happened on that day.
(34:31):
It could be, let's just saythere's a new fortress driver,
and things are chaotic, and hehad to unload, you know,
whatever he had to handle, whatparticular part he didn't
realize it was a semicon part,and he just got through the
screening we had, and then wewould work with the local
partners to ensure that.
So it's it's less about fingerpointing and more about
(34:51):
resolution and improving thewhole time, um, you know, and
just adapting and adopting newmethodologies because semicon
moves very fast, so we'reconstantly having to update uh
working methodologies.
SPEAKER_03 (35:03):
Um, Valentina, are there tools that you're piloting
to give customers visibility umor predictive insights?
SPEAKER_01 (35:12):
Yes, we are always piloting new tools.
So uh we are always looking uhinto the newest smart sensor,
but we also develop our ownsolution.
So uh we are always going to belaunching new digital tools.
So we talk about smart labels, asmart sensor that can track
(35:32):
temperature, humidity, shock,real time.
Um we have um tools that canpredict and forecast along the
routing what can happen.
So a bit what what you werediscussing now with John,
sometimes it's not even aboutfinding where uh the the fault
stands, but it's to say, okay,we notice that here something
(35:56):
always happens.
Why?
So what can we do?
Maybe we need to review thepackaging, maybe we need to talk
to the shipper, maybe there arethings on both sides that can be
done.
In our company, we are alwayslooking for the newest tool.
And yes, we are working onsomething new now.
I cannot tell you too much, butsoon we will always be releasing
(36:18):
new digital tools, a newinnovative tool that can support
all our customers, being them onthe semiconductor side, on the
cloud side, whatever are thetype of goods we are shipping,
we will always be looking at theuh newest digital tools that can
support the shipment.
SPEAKER_03 (36:36):
When you're working with OSATs, what are they
looking for when qualifying alogistics partner?
SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
Each OSAT will have different variables depending on
what they're involved in.
Are they involved in thesubstrates, you know, wire
bonding, the die cutting?
So they all have differentvariables.
But at the end of the day, ifyou take a helicopter view on
what they're looking at, whatthey really want is right first
time.
They just want whatever they'reshipping to get there on time,
(37:05):
in time, and with the qualitythat they expect their equipment
to arrive on, which is brandnew.
So they really want what I justcaptioned it like right first
time.
No excuses.
We need it there at this point,at this location, with 100%
quality.
SPEAKER_03 (37:21):
So all of these things that we've been talking
about, most of those situationswe don't want to see happen at
all.
SPEAKER_00 (37:28):
Correct.
SPEAKER_03 (37:29):
Right.
So right first time meansthey're looking for someone with
some experience.
They understand the end-to-endsituation, like we've been
talking about, and that whatthey need is to know that their
logistics partner is fully awareof what can happen in the
semiconductor industry whenyou're moving anything from
(37:49):
equipment to devices to wafersto materials, and that they can
count on their logistics partnerto minimize all of those risks
and make sure that they gettheir products on time.
So, Valentina, CUNA Novel has aproduct.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat semicon chain product?
SPEAKER_01 (38:10):
Sure.
So, based on uh what uh Johnjust described, we have decided
to uh create our own qualitylabel.
So semico chain is a qualitylabel, it's something that
didn't exist before in themarket.
What does it mean for thecustomer?
We have uh um a framework forour uh team that they have to
(38:33):
follow.
So we identify where there is aneed, so we design the
semiconductor, we check uh umorigin and destination, so who
is going to work with thesemiconductor shipment?
And based on that, we train ourteam so nobody um who has not
been trained can touch theshipment or work with the
(38:56):
shipment at all.
So they are not going to make abooking, they are not going to
deal with the semiconductorcustomer at all.
But besides that, uh so we wetry to understand is the
shipment going into thewarehouse?
So, what are the storageconditions?
Um, is our warehouse equipped tohandle this type of goods?
And then who are the trackersthat are going to move this
(39:20):
shipment?
As John was saying, are they umair ride trucks?
Because otherwise forget it,they cannot move the shipment.
So we are going to auditbasically every station in our
semiconductor network that isgoing to deal with the shipment.
And this auditing is not done,of course, by me or uh by John,
(39:42):
it's done by our qualitydepartment that is an
independent department inside ofKunen Nagel that is going to
audit all our stations.
There is this program that werun, so everybody in the station
has to be trained.
They need to know also how todeal with the sensors, how to
handle the packages, everything,what to book with the airlines
(40:04):
and what to book with thesubcontractor, because sometimes
booking the wrong type ofservice can have um very bad
consequences.
This process is not that we doit once and then forget it.
We have to rerun this uh umauditing and this training every
two years.
So we are going to checkeveryone in our network are they
(40:26):
still trained?
Are they still the same peopleworking?
If there are new people joining,have they been trained?
So we are going to rerun theentire process every two years.
And if there is something thatis not working as we expect, we
will make also an auditing ofthe station and we will make
sure that the process isfollowed exactly as we expect.
(40:49):
So it's a quality label that wehave launched.
We are very proud of it, and uhit works quite well.
SPEAKER_03 (40:57):
It's been really great talking to you both and
learning about the importance oflogistics for the real overall
reliability of a device.
So, what would be each of youwould be one key message
packaging and test professionalsshould remember about logistics?
SPEAKER_00 (41:13):
Um, we're the best partner that you never know you
had.
Or, you know, we should beunseen and unheard.
Your packages should justarrive, your you know, your
parts should just arrive, yourequipment should just arrive.
SPEAKER_03 (41:25):
Yes, I imagine what we've talked about could give
some people some anxiety, right?
SPEAKER_00 (41:30):
Yes, it can.
And this is the problem withshining a light on it.
Now we're shining, you know,another possible break in the
chain, but that that's why it'scalled a supply chain, because
we link the front and the back.
We everything is linkedtogether, so we keep those links
going.
So, but people don't realizethat we're there, so kind of a
hidden force.
SPEAKER_03 (41:48):
Right.
So that's what we want.
We want to remain a hiddenforce, right?
We don't want people to worry.
SPEAKER_01 (41:53):
Valentina, uh, from my side, I think uh what I would
uh like to remind everyone isthat logistic is not just there
to move things from A to B.
We are not only the supportfunction, if we are included in
the conversation with the uh theshipper, with the consignee, and
even with the manufacturer, wecan uh enable reliability.
(42:17):
So the more you let us know, themore hidden we will stay,
because then you won't hear ofus anymore.
But don't forget, we are notjust a support function, we need
to be part of the supply chain.
SPEAKER_03 (42:31):
Excellent.
Okay.
Well, I want to thank you bothfor joining me today and giving
me something to think about.
Um, so thank you very much.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (42:41):
Thank you very much for having us.
SPEAKER_03 (42:46):
Hey everyone, we are right smack dab in the middle of
event season.
So next time on the 3D Insightspodcast, we'll begin our
coverage of iMaps InternationalSymposium, which is taking place
this week in San Diego, as wellas Semicon West, which takes
place next week in Phoenix.
We'll be recording live at theshows and bringing you episodes
after the fact.
So be sure to follow to getthose automatic downloads right
(43:09):
to your phone or on ApplePodcasts, Spotify, or wherever
you get your podcasts.
Thanks for listening.
There's lots more to come, sotune in next time to the 3D
Insights Podcast.
The 3D Insights Podcast is aproduction of 3D Insights LLC.
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