February 13, 2025 • 27 mins
Explore the transformative world of microelectronics packaging with industry visionaries Amy Lujan, Tim Olson, and Jan Vardaman as they share their journey at the IMAPS Annual Device Packaging Conference (DPC). With the conference relocating to the vast Wild Horse Pass, expect an enriched experience with expanded technical tracks and exhibitor opportunities reflecting the rising interest in this field. Get ready to embrace the future of packaging with insights that redefine its significance in the semiconductor industry.
Uncover the critical challenges facing AI infrastructure in a thought-provoking panel discussion with experts from IBM Research, Intel, and leading OSATs. We'll tackle whether today's infrastructure can keep pace with AI's explosive growth, especially concerning energy-efficient chip designs and packaging solutions. Learn about groundbreaking advancements and the potential to alleviate data center power consumption concerns through innovative packaging techniques. Beyond the tech talk, we'll highlight the vibrant networking scene at the conference, featuring events like the Backyard Olympics and a charity golf tournament, ensuring a perfect blend of professional growth and community building. Join us for a chance to network, learn, and potentially reshape the future of microelectronics packaging.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Francoise von Trapp (00:00):
This episode of the 3D InCites
Podcast is sponsored by IMAPS,the premier global association
for microelectronics advancedpackaging enthusiasts.
A membership in IMAPS helpsyour company grow its advanced
packaging workforce throughprofessional education and
networking, advances your brandand supports building
relationships.
Imaps helps you learn, connectand collaborate.
Learn more at imaps.
(00:21):
org.
Hi there, I'm Francoise vonTrapp, and this is the 3D
Insights Podcast.
(00:43):
If you've been listening to the3D Insights podcast since we
first started, you'll recognizesome of the speakers on this
week's episode.
We've partnered with theInternational Microelectronics
and Packaging Society for yearsand that's IMAP for short and as
part of that, we dedicate manyof our podcast episodes to
coverage of their events focusedon leading-edge advanced
(01:04):
microelectronics packaging.
The IMAPS Annual DevicePackaging Conference, or DPC, is
just a few weeks away, so toget you ready for it, we have
talking with the people behindthis year's event.
We've got Amy Lujan, who is CEOof Savantsa Solution and is
this year's general chair.
We've got DECA Technologies CEOTim Olson, who is co-general
(01:25):
chair of IMAP's Global BusinessCouncil.
And, lastly, we've got JanVardaman, who is on our
technical advisory board and sheis also the CEO and founder of
TechSearch International andwill be running as usual this
year's panel discussion, so wegot her to come and talk about
that.
So welcome to the podcasteverybody.
(01:45):
Thank you, thank you.
Before we dive into all ofthese different topic areas, can
you just introduce yourselvesbriefly and explain about your
roles at IMAPS?
Amy, you want to start?
Amy Lujan (01:56):
Yeah, Thank you for inviting me onto the podcast.
So my role with IMAPS this yearis general chair.
But I actually beganvolunteering with IMAPS probably
10 years ago as a session chairand I slowly moved from session
chair to track chair to generalchair.
Today, In this role in general,I'm helping to guide the
(02:18):
overall theme of the conference.
Lead the technical team inmaking decisions about our
technical track.
Lead the technical team inmaking decisions about our
technical track Generally, justproviding kind of consistent
support and communication withthe technical team.
Francoise von Trapp (02:30):
Okay, and that's on top of your day job.
We've talked about that a lot,about how everybody has a day
job, and this is the volunteerpart of your careers.
Tim Olson (02:44):
Tim, how about you?
Sure, I've been associated withIMAPS for a decade, I would say
, and it's been as a presenter,it's been as an exhibitor with
our company, DECA.
We've been very active at DPCand at Symposium and other IMAPS
events.
And in the last couple of yearsI've become involved in the
Global Business Council and justthis year I was asked to be
(03:04):
co-general chair of the GBC,which I'm very excited about.
So we get to shape, obviously,the program for that, which
we'll talk more about later, andthe participants.
So, yes, thank you.
Francoise von Trapp (03:18):
Cool and Jan.
Jan Vardaman (03:20):
I've been involved with IMAPS for more than 25
years and in various capacities,certainly attending a lot of
conferences, and one of thethings that I've been involved
with most recently, say in thelast 10 years or so, has been
running these panel discussionsat the various events.
And I really enjoy running apanel discussion because I like
(03:41):
to bring something very timelyto the conference and to the
gathering, to get people engagedin talking about some of the
latest developments, trends orissues in our industry, and a
lot of times we want thatconversation.
We want to start theconversation and then we want it
to spill over into ourdiscussions throughout the
(04:02):
conference.
Francoise von Trapp (04:03):
That panel is generally on the Tuesday
night, right Correct, so thatthere's still Wednesday to have
lots of conversation about whatwas happening.
And I can attest to the factthat there have been some very
lively conversations that comeout during that panel and
afterwards for sure.
So Amy IMAX has grown so muchthat this year we needed to find
(04:27):
a new location to host it.
What's driving that growth?
Amy Lujan (04:31):
You know, I think that growth has come because
there's an increased recognitionabout how important packaging
really is.
The value of a device now isnot just in the silicon.
The chips being packagedcertainly do carry a lot of
value still, but the packagingtechnologies have also become a
(04:54):
source of that value as well.
Packaging is being asked to domore, to do better.
That means everything fromsmaller packages with higher
densities to increased energyefficiency, improved bandwidth
the list really goes on, and soI think that's what's driven the
(05:14):
growth of this conference isthat recognition of how
important packaging really hasbecome.
Francoise von Trapp (05:22):
Yeah, I think you're right.
I mean, for so many years, Ithink, even the term packaging
has started to starting to benot really accurate to describe
what everybody does.
You know, years ago when Ifirst started in this industry,
I was told that it was theimportant part of packaging, or
the role of packaging was toprotect the delicate chips for
(05:43):
reliability purposes and so on.
But so much of that has nowevolved to being really the
interconnect that's formedbetween when you package more
than one chip into a device.
I mean, Tim, your business hasreally been focused on not so
much the packaging end right,but the interconnect.
Tim Olson (06:01):
Very much so.
In fact, in the early days wecalled ourselves Electronic
Interconnect Foundry because wewere hoping what's happening
today would happen.
So we're very happy that it has.
Francoise von Trapp (06:12):
Oh, that's right, you did, I forgot about
that.
One of the originalinterconnectologists, so you
know before we start talkingabout the keynotes.
What about the new location?
Do people need to know?
Amy Lujan (06:23):
The new location is Wild Horse Pass.
I have not been there yetmyself, but I hear that it has a
very similar feel to the WacoResort that we were all, I think
, very fond of.
Having this bigger space hasallowed us to do a couple of
things.
We will now have four technicaltracks instead of three, so
(06:45):
that means more content, morespeakers.
There's 18 more exhibit spaces,although even with that
increased space, the exhibithall sold out faster than ever
anyway.
And, last but not least, it iscloser to the airport and I know
that was really good.
Jan Vardaman (07:04):
Yeah, it's a great location.
Amy Lujan (07:05):
Yeah, it is closer to the airport and I know that was
really good.
Yeah, it's a great location.
Francoise von Trapp (07:08):
Yeah, it is a great location.
And so, with four technicaltracks, how many presentations
do we have at this point?
Amy Lujan (07:19):
That would be 80.
Francoise von Trapp (07:21):
80.
Okay, and we have got fourkeynote talks.
Amy Lujan (07:26):
Correct Four keynotes , four tracks.
Francoise von Trapp (07:29):
So you mentioned earlier, when you were
introducing yourself, thatthere's usually a general theme.
What's this year's theme forDPC and how did the keynotes
play into that?
Amy Lujan (07:40):
So this year's keynotes we tried to focus on
the advancements that arehappening in packaging,
basically advancements that hadto happen to support the
increasingly complex demands ofapplications like AI, data
centers and high-performancecomputing, performance computing
(08:07):
.
Ai was kind of our guidingprinciple because it's been such
a hot topic in the past year ortwo.
As Jan will explain, that'salso the focus of her panel.
So AI was what we focused on aswe began trying to reach out to
companies and people to see whowould end up fitting into our
slate of speakers.
Francoise von Trapp (08:28):
So who do you have speaking?
Amy Lujan (08:31):
So on Tuesday we have the head of packaging at IBM
Research, Dr Hemant Draganathan.
He will be talking aboutsilicon and organic substrate
solutions for packaging AI, andthen we will also have the glass
perspective on glass-basedsubstrates that same day from
Samjin Kim, CTO of Epsolix.
Francoise von Trapp (08:54):
Glass is such a huge topic right now, and
also panelized glass, so I'llbe interested to hear what he
has to say.
Amy Lujan (09:01):
Yeah, and we were happy to get kind of a substrate
focus on that first day glassversus some silicon and organic
to get some differentperspectives on it.
Thursday we'll change track alittle bit and JB Baker of
ScaleFlux is going to talk aboutdata centers and talk about the
(09:22):
role that packaging plays inmeeting the future demands.
And then our final keynote isgoing to be a bit more of an
academic perspective from JasonConrad at ASU.
He'll be talking a little bitabout how substrate solutions
can support high-performancecomputing.
Francoise von Trapp (09:43):
So I like how you're carrying the
substrate topic through, becauseit really is critical right now
, but also having theperspective of the end user of a
data center.
And then, yeah, there's a lotof exciting things happening in
Arizona, especially in thatspace, with collaborations
between academia and industry.
So I'm really excited to hearwhat they're going to be talking
(10:06):
about.
Amy Lujan (10:07):
Yeah, I think it's a good lineup.
Francoise von Trapp (10:09):
So now, jan , speaking of AI, you've got a
very provocative title Preparingfor the Coming AI Winter With a
question mark, with a questionmark, okay.
So can you tell us whatattendees can expect to learn
from this panel?
Jan Vardaman (10:23):
Well, I think everybody would agree that
there's been a lot of hype aboutAI.
So it's always a question of isthere too much hype and have we
created unrealistic expectationsfor this topic?
But, that being said, you know,obviously, if you look at our
(10:44):
OSAT businesses, companies thatare gaining a lot of revenue in
the OSAT space generally havebeen associated with the high
performance computing in the AIrevenue, because there's a
tremendous amount of revenuebeing generated in the
preparation of packages for this, and that includes both mainly
(11:05):
from the data center, butincreasingly from the edge space
.
So we're going to talk aboutthat.
But the other thing that wehave to address is does the
infrastructure support thecontinued growth for AI?
And that includes the assembly,the availability of HBM, things
like that.
(11:26):
And then we're also going totalk about the energy use of
these, basically in the datacenter, Because this is a really
critical aspect of the growthof AI.
I mean, if you don't have thepower, the energy, it's going to
be certainly hard to run a datacenter to do the kind of things
(11:47):
Exactly Super important.
And how is our industryaddressing that energy crisis,
if you will?
Are we able to design withpackages or chips that will use
less power?
I mean, it's crazy when youtalk about the amount of power
dissipation that these moduleshave, and so we want to talk
about that.
And then, of course, we alsowant to talk about some of the
(12:10):
developments that have been inthe news recently, with the
revelation from DeepSeek thatthey were able to build a
training model that took lesstime and, according to some
people, less advanced hardwarein order to develop an open
source model.
That begs the question do weneed to continue to buy these
(12:35):
modules and upgrade our existingcapability, or can we use what
we have?
I mean, what is the refreshcycle with the modules in the
hardware side?
I mean because, after all, aiis a combination of hardware and
software, and you can't have AIwithout either one of them.
So the question is, are youmore dependent upon the hardware
(12:58):
?
Are you more dependent on thesoftware, and what is that bode
for the future?
So those are the kind of thingsthat we want to address.
We have a very exciting panel.
We have our keynote speakerfrom IBM Research is going to
join the panel.
We have a representative fromIntel, we have three OSATs
represented in Stats, chippack,asc and Amcor, and I think that
(13:20):
they'll help us to address someof the infrastructure and the
challenges from the perspectivesthat they are involved in.
And then, of course, they'reout there dealing with the
customers who are having thishardware built, and then
whatever other questions come upfrom people, there's certainly
a lot of emphasis on the growthin AI is driving the
(13:42):
semiconductor industry revenueand driving some of our assembly
and test revenue, and so thoseare the things I think we can
discuss at our meeting.
Francoise von Trapp (13:52):
Do you think we've finally gotten to
the point where the value add ofpackaging can command a higher
price point because it's goinginto AI modules?
One of the things I rememberfrom Semicon West last year was
how you know wafers themselveshave so much more value that
we're not just dealing with theold school.
(14:14):
Packaging just is a necessarycost adder.
Do you think, with applicationspaces like HPC and AI driving
things, that the manufacturingcompanies are more willing to
invest in advanced packagingsolutions?
Jan Vardaman (14:32):
Well, it's advanced packaging that enables
these solutions to become areality.
True, right.
And so you have to invest inthat advanced packaging if
you're going to achieve any ofthe capabilities that the chips
themselves promise.
As it becomes more complex, itbecomes more expensive, and it's
(14:52):
not just the assembly side,it's the test side also.
So don't forget about the test.
And so we have to look at thatin terms of it's not just are we
willing to pay more for it,it's we have to pay more for it,
it's we have to pay more for it.
And then how do we change thatpackaging to become more energy
efficient?
How do we change that packaging?
(15:13):
Is there a way to make it morecost effective?
But after all, at the end ofthe day, if you're charging
$40,000 a part, how concernedare you really about the cost of
the package?
Right?
exactly You're more concernedabout getting the package,
having the infrastructure inplace to manufacture those
packages in a timely fashion tomeet demand and to ship them out
(15:36):
the door, and so really thecost, in a high performance
situation, is not near theconcern.
It is for a consumer typeproduct.
Francoise von Trapp (15:50):
I'll be really interested to see what
the commentary is aroundDeepSeek, because it's still so
new in the news.
You know this happened just afew weeks ago where it seemed to
really have this huge impactright away on NVIDIA.
But then the more you digdeeper the questions around how
it is actually what it claims tobe.
Jan Vardaman (16:11):
Well, I think it's less important to look at
whatever DeepSync did.
The important, fundamentalquestion is can you build these
models off of less advancedhardware?
I mean, how much are youdependent upon the software?
It begs the question is what isthe refresh cycle on this?
(16:32):
Because, after all, what'sgoing to drive more demand is
not just more data centers, butperhaps a refresh and
replacement of the existingmodules in the data centers that
we have, and that's somethingthat we need to discuss, and
I've not really gotten asatisfactory answer to that yet.
I mean, certainly, from areliability perspective, these
(16:54):
things can last a long time, butyou know how long before you do
an upgrade.
I mean we know what therequirements are for.
You know an upgrade on theirserver CPUs, because that's what
happens all the time.
We know the cadence for that.
What we don't know is what'sthe cadence for the replacement
of the AI modules, and that'swhat we can discuss in this
(17:15):
panel and hopefully get somereally good answers and get
really engaged in the audienceto talk about this.
But one of the things that Ithink we should talk about is,
if we replace these with moreenergy efficient modules, will
that help us with the powerconsumption for the data center,
and I think those are the kindof things that we want to
(17:36):
address and talk about and whatkind of new ideas do people have
out there?
And hopefully we'll engage theaudience with this distinguished
group of panel members andwe'll have a great discussion.
Francoise von Trapp (17:50):
And that kind of plays into some of the
topic of this year's GBC, rightTim.
Tim Olson (17:55):
It sure does.
So our GBC, of course, by itsname it's kind of self-evident,
but we focus on the businessside of microelectronics
packaging, and so we're reallypleased to be part of IMAPS.
We're a plenary session that'sin the middle, so in the middle
of the day of the conference wededicate that morning to the
Global Business Council and weinvite speakers from the
(18:18):
industry to talk about the theme, and this year's theme is
scaling of artificialintelligence from the data
center to the consumer, and sowhat we've lined up is some
folks from the hyperscalers, themeta type application.
We've got a Qualcomm gentlemanto talk more about the kind of
what you could call edge or theconsumer side of using that AI.
(18:40):
We have Marvell, seniorexecutive, talking about the
chips and the advanced packagingarchitectures around those
chips that are used by thehyperscalers.
Marvell is one of the companiesat the heart of that, and then
we have Jan is actually going tobe speaker at GBC this year,
and we have another analyst fromEurope, joel.
So we're going to have someanalysts that know about the
(19:03):
industry give their perspectivesand we're going to have kind of
the whole value chain ofcommercial companies talk about
what they see in this idea of AIkind of taking over lots of
things all the way from datacenters to us as consumers.
Francoise von Trapp (19:17):
We've got the panel on Tuesday night and
then the GPC kind of picks upthe story and runs with it from
the business angle on Wednesday.
So that should be reallyinteresting combination.
Tim Olson (19:28):
Yes, and we have a panel actually to wrap up our
morning too, so all of our fivespeakers will be part of a panel
as well at the end of GBC thisyear, which is a little bit
different than previous.
Francoise von Trapp (19:39):
Well, we'll be having Jillian McNichol, who
is our new interconnectologyblogger, and she is developing a
passion for AI, and so we'll belooking to have her write
something about both of thesethings as she hones her skills
to become the empress of AI.
We have a queen of 3D, andshe's going to be the empress of
AI.
Tim Olson (20:01):
Wow, impressive.
Francoise von Trapp (20:02):
Okay.
So we've talked about keynotes,we've talked about GVC and the
panel.
We haven't really talked muchabout the technology tracks,
other than the fact that there'sfour of them and there's going
to be 80.
I don't think we want to gothrough all of the different
presentations.
We also have the kicking thingsoff on Monday with the
professional development coursesthat people should be taking
(20:26):
advantage of.
Do you want to say anythingabout that, amy?
Amy Lujan (20:30):
So professional development courses, we have 16
this year.
So that means that, based onhow the two-hour courses are set
up, there's four runningconcurrently, which is pretty
cool, because a couple of yearsago I think there were only 12,
and before then maybe fewer thanthat.
So our PDCs this year it's amix of familiar courses that I
(20:56):
think we all see show up somereally great basics that anyone
can come to year over year,especially if they're new to the
industry, along with some newblood as well, some new courses
mixed in.
Francoise von Trapp (21:10):
So will people be able to access these
as part of IMAPS Academy afterDPC?
If they weren't able to attend,will they be added to the
curriculum there?
Amy Lujan (21:21):
To the best of my knowledge, I think that's the
case for some of them.
We would need to ask an IMAPSperson about that specifically.
Francoise von Trapp (21:29):
Okay, so that leaves my favorite part of
the IMAPS device packagingconference, which is the
networking and everybody gettingto know each other and building
the community context.
So we've got a bunch ofnetworking opportunities,
beginning with a welcomereception right On the Monday
night, that's correct, and it'sa pretty casual reception to
(21:52):
officially kick things off.
Yeah, and then Tuesday there isthe, I think exhibitor reception
, that's right, reception in theexhibit hall, followed by Jan's
panel.
Yeah, followed by Jan's panel,and the panel generally has some
sort of food and beverageavailable to keep people from
fainting.
Jan Vardaman (22:13):
Yes, it does.
We always make sure as asponsor that that food and
beverage is highest qualitypossible.
Francoise von Trapp (22:22):
And you know it's a long day.
So once you're doing the panel,you know people need a little
bit of refreshment and itusually sparks some interesting
conversation as well.
Tim Olson (22:33):
I was going to say, if history repeats itself, the
libations help people to letdown some of their you know
inhibitions, and there's somereally exciting things that
happen in that evening panel Jan.
Francoise von Trapp (22:45):
We all laugh because we've all been
there before, but it is a not tobe missed event.
And then, of course, onWednesday there's the poster
sessions with Happy Hour andthis year, for the second time,
I'm super excited to talk aboutthe Backyard Olympics.
We have sponsors for this event.
The title sponsor is Liquidics,we have a drink sponsor, which
(23:08):
is Amcor, and we have our photosponsor, which is DECA.
Thank you, tim.
There are still sponsorshipsavailable for the different
games, but what we're trying todo here is kind of create an
environment or atmosphere ofplay where people can do some
team building.
It tends to also have peopleletting down their inhibitions
(23:30):
or the awkwardness of meetingpeople for the first time.
It's really great to meet overa game.
There's a lot of friendlycompetition that can go on here,
and we've upgraded a little bitfrom last year where we're
going to have a medal ceremony,so put your teams together.
It's being organized a bit likethe golf tournament and
proceeds will benefit the IMAPSMicroelectronics Foundation
(23:51):
Scholarship Fund, as is the golftournament, which is also
happening on Thursday afternoon.
I'm thinking of going out onthe golf course because I've
picked up golf in the lastcouple of years, so I'm looking
forward to the golf tournamentthis year.
Tim Olson (24:06):
Awesome.
Francoise von Trapp (24:08):
The other thing actually I want to mention
is that on Tuesday morningafter the keynotes, please stick
around before you go up to thecoffee hour to help celebrate
the 2025 3D Insights Awardwinners.
We'll be presenting the awardsduring that session, so we hope
people can stay around to helpcelebrate them.
Anything else to add?
Tim Olson (24:27):
Just that I'm looking forward to the new
Backyard Olympics.
Francois, that was a lot of funbefore, and what you've done to
it sounds like it'll be evenmore fun.
Francoise von Trapp (24:35):
So we've had lots of help from the IMAPS
committee.
They pretty much ran with it onour behalf.
So we do have the games there'scornhole On our behalf.
So we do have the games.
There's cornhole, there's golfchipping, there's pong.
Pull the hoop, axe throwing anda ring toss.
Apparently, at the new venuethere's a lot more space for it
and it's going to be a reallyfun time.
(24:57):
So when you sign up for yourregistration, you'll have the
opportunity to also sign up ateam for the backyard Olympics.
You'll also have theopportunity to sign up a
foursome for the golf.
So make sure you check that outand if you've already
registered and didn't add thosefun things in, then go back and
add them in, because really, inmy opinion, the best part of the
(25:17):
whole week.
Tim Olson (25:18):
It is wonderful.
Francoise von Trapp (25:21):
So where can people go to learn more?
Amy Lujan (25:24):
The IMAPS website, imapsorg.
There's a whole dedicated pageabout device packaging.
2025 has information about thedates where to stay, all kinds
of information, so that you canhopefully come join us.
It's my personal favoriteconference.
I go to a handful every year.
(25:44):
This is what I look forward tothe most.
It's a great mix of industry,friends and there's always some
new people that show up to startlearning, but I find it to be
the perfect size, so I'm reallylooking forward to seeing a lot
of people in about one monthhere.
Francoise von Trapp (26:04):
That's right, and I do think that, with
ASU being so close here,there's going to be a lot of
students, a lot of newcomers tothe industry.
If you are looking to fillcareer openings, here's an
opportunity to meet some people.
So, yeah, it's going to be areally great event.
I'm super excited and I lookforward to seeing you all there
(26:25):
us too thanks, everybody allright, thank you for having us
on thanks bye-bye.
There's lots more to come, sotune in next time to the 3d
insights podcast.
The 3d insights podcast is aproduction of 3d insights llc.
This episode of the 3D InCites
Podcast is sponsored by IMAPS,the premier global association
for microelectronics advancedpackaging enthusiasts.
A membership in IMAPS helpsyour company grow its advanced
packaging workforce throughprofessional education and
networking, advances your brandand supports building
relationships.
Imaps helps you learn, connectand collaborate.
Learn more at imaps.
(00:21):
org.
Hi there, I'm Francoise vonTrapp, and this is the 3D
Insights Podcast.
(00:43):
If you've been listening to the3D Insights podcast since we
first started, you'll recognizesome of the speakers on this
week's episode.
We've partnered with theInternational Microelectronics
and Packaging Society for yearsand that's IMAP for short and as
part of that, we dedicate manyof our podcast episodes to
coverage of their events focusedon leading-edge advanced
(01:04):
microelectronics packaging.
The IMAPS Annual DevicePackaging Conference, or DPC, is
just a few weeks away, so toget you ready for it, we have
talking with the people behindthis year's event.
We've got Amy Lujan, who is CEOof Savantsa Solution and is
this year's general chair.
We've got DECA Technologies CEOTim Olson, who is co-general
(01:25):
chair of IMAP's Global BusinessCouncil.
And, lastly, we've got JanVardaman, who is on our
technical advisory board and sheis also the CEO and founder of
TechSearch International andwill be running as usual this
year's panel discussion, so wegot her to come and talk about
that.
So welcome to the podcasteverybody.
(01:45):
Thank you, thank you.
Before we dive into all ofthese different topic areas, can
you just introduce yourselvesbriefly and explain about your
roles at IMAPS?
Amy, you want to start?
Amy Lujan (01:56):
Yeah, Thank you for inviting me onto the podcast.
So my role with IMAPS this yearis general chair.
But I actually beganvolunteering with IMAPS probably
10 years ago as a session chairand I slowly moved from session
chair to track chair to generalchair.
Today, In this role in general,I'm helping to guide the
(02:18):
overall theme of the conference.
Lead the technical team inmaking decisions about our
technical track.
Lead the technical team inmaking decisions about our
technical track Generally, justproviding kind of consistent
support and communication withthe technical team.
Francoise von Trapp (02:30):
Okay, and that's on top of your day job.
We've talked about that a lot,about how everybody has a day
job, and this is the volunteerpart of your careers.
Tim Olson (02:44):
Tim, how about you?
Sure, I've been associated withIMAPS for a decade, I would say
, and it's been as a presenter,it's been as an exhibitor with
our company, DECA.
We've been very active at DPCand at Symposium and other IMAPS
events.
And in the last couple of yearsI've become involved in the
Global Business Council and justthis year I was asked to be
(03:04):
co-general chair of the GBC,which I'm very excited about.
So we get to shape, obviously,the program for that, which
we'll talk more about later, andthe participants.
So, yes, thank you.
Francoise von Trapp (03:18):
Cool and Jan.
Jan Vardaman (03:20):
I've been involved with IMAPS for more than 25
years and in various capacities,certainly attending a lot of
conferences, and one of thethings that I've been involved
with most recently, say in thelast 10 years or so, has been
running these panel discussionsat the various events.
And I really enjoy running apanel discussion because I like
(03:41):
to bring something very timelyto the conference and to the
gathering, to get people engagedin talking about some of the
latest developments, trends orissues in our industry, and a
lot of times we want thatconversation.
We want to start theconversation and then we want it
to spill over into ourdiscussions throughout the
(04:02):
conference.
Francoise von Trapp (04:03):
That panel is generally on the Tuesday
night, right Correct, so thatthere's still Wednesday to have
lots of conversation about whatwas happening.
And I can attest to the factthat there have been some very
lively conversations that comeout during that panel and
afterwards for sure.
So Amy IMAX has grown so muchthat this year we needed to find
(04:27):
a new location to host it.
What's driving that growth?
Amy Lujan (04:31):
You know, I think that growth has come because
there's an increased recognitionabout how important packaging
really is.
The value of a device now isnot just in the silicon.
The chips being packagedcertainly do carry a lot of
value still, but the packagingtechnologies have also become a
(04:54):
source of that value as well.
Packaging is being asked to domore, to do better.
That means everything fromsmaller packages with higher
densities to increased energyefficiency, improved bandwidth
the list really goes on, and soI think that's what's driven the
(05:14):
growth of this conference isthat recognition of how
important packaging really hasbecome.
Francoise von Trapp (05:22):
Yeah, I think you're right.
I mean, for so many years, Ithink, even the term packaging
has started to starting to benot really accurate to describe
what everybody does.
You know, years ago when Ifirst started in this industry,
I was told that it was theimportant part of packaging, or
the role of packaging was toprotect the delicate chips for
(05:43):
reliability purposes and so on.
But so much of that has nowevolved to being really the
interconnect that's formedbetween when you package more
than one chip into a device.
I mean, Tim, your business hasreally been focused on not so
much the packaging end right,but the interconnect.
Tim Olson (06:01):
Very much so.
In fact, in the early days wecalled ourselves Electronic
Interconnect Foundry because wewere hoping what's happening
today would happen.
So we're very happy that it has.
Francoise von Trapp (06:12):
Oh, that's right, you did, I forgot about
that.
One of the originalinterconnectologists, so you
know before we start talkingabout the keynotes.
What about the new location?
Do people need to know?
Amy Lujan (06:23):
The new location is Wild Horse Pass.
I have not been there yetmyself, but I hear that it has a
very similar feel to the WacoResort that we were all, I think
, very fond of.
Having this bigger space hasallowed us to do a couple of
things.
We will now have four technicaltracks instead of three, so
(06:45):
that means more content, morespeakers.
There's 18 more exhibit spaces,although even with that
increased space, the exhibithall sold out faster than ever
anyway.
And, last but not least, it iscloser to the airport and I know
that was really good.
Jan Vardaman (07:04):
Yeah, it's a great location.
Amy Lujan (07:05):
Yeah, it is closer to the airport and I know that was
really good.
Yeah, it's a great location.
Francoise von Trapp (07:08):
Yeah, it is a great location.
And so, with four technicaltracks, how many presentations
do we have at this point?
Amy Lujan (07:19):
That would be 80.
Francoise von Trapp (07:21):
80.
Okay, and we have got fourkeynote talks.
Amy Lujan (07:26):
Correct Four keynotes , four tracks.
Francoise von Trapp (07:29):
So you mentioned earlier, when you were
introducing yourself, thatthere's usually a general theme.
What's this year's theme forDPC and how did the keynotes
play into that?
Amy Lujan (07:40):
So this year's keynotes we tried to focus on
the advancements that arehappening in packaging,
basically advancements that hadto happen to support the
increasingly complex demands ofapplications like AI, data
centers and high-performancecomputing, performance computing
(08:07):
.
Ai was kind of our guidingprinciple because it's been such
a hot topic in the past year ortwo.
As Jan will explain, that'salso the focus of her panel.
So AI was what we focused on aswe began trying to reach out to
companies and people to see whowould end up fitting into our
slate of speakers.
Francoise von Trapp (08:28):
So who do you have speaking?
Amy Lujan (08:31):
So on Tuesday we have the head of packaging at IBM
Research, Dr Hemant Draganathan.
He will be talking aboutsilicon and organic substrate
solutions for packaging AI, andthen we will also have the glass
perspective on glass-basedsubstrates that same day from
Samjin Kim, CTO of Epsolix.
Francoise von Trapp (08:54):
Glass is such a huge topic right now, and
also panelized glass, so I'llbe interested to hear what he
has to say.
Amy Lujan (09:01):
Yeah, and we were happy to get kind of a substrate
focus on that first day glassversus some silicon and organic
to get some differentperspectives on it.
Thursday we'll change track alittle bit and JB Baker of
ScaleFlux is going to talk aboutdata centers and talk about the
(09:22):
role that packaging plays inmeeting the future demands.
And then our final keynote isgoing to be a bit more of an
academic perspective from JasonConrad at ASU.
He'll be talking a little bitabout how substrate solutions
can support high-performancecomputing.
Francoise von Trapp (09:43):
So I like how you're carrying the
substrate topic through, becauseit really is critical right now
, but also having theperspective of the end user of a
data center.
And then, yeah, there's a lotof exciting things happening in
Arizona, especially in thatspace, with collaborations
between academia and industry.
So I'm really excited to hearwhat they're going to be talking
(10:06):
about.
Amy Lujan (10:07):
Yeah, I think it's a good lineup.
Francoise von Trapp (10:09):
So now, jan , speaking of AI, you've got a
very provocative title Preparingfor the Coming AI Winter With a
question mark, with a questionmark, okay.
So can you tell us whatattendees can expect to learn
from this panel?
Jan Vardaman (10:23):
Well, I think everybody would agree that
there's been a lot of hype aboutAI.
So it's always a question of isthere too much hype and have we
created unrealistic expectationsfor this topic?
But, that being said, you know,obviously, if you look at our
(10:44):
OSAT businesses, companies thatare gaining a lot of revenue in
the OSAT space generally havebeen associated with the high
performance computing in the AIrevenue, because there's a
tremendous amount of revenuebeing generated in the
preparation of packages for this, and that includes both mainly
(11:05):
from the data center, butincreasingly from the edge space
.
So we're going to talk aboutthat.
But the other thing that wehave to address is does the
infrastructure support thecontinued growth for AI?
And that includes the assembly,the availability of HBM, things
like that.
(11:26):
And then we're also going totalk about the energy use of
these, basically in the datacenter, Because this is a really
critical aspect of the growthof AI.
I mean, if you don't have thepower, the energy, it's going to
be certainly hard to run a datacenter to do the kind of things
(11:47):
Exactly Super important.
And how is our industryaddressing that energy crisis,
if you will?
Are we able to design withpackages or chips that will use
less power?
I mean, it's crazy when youtalk about the amount of power
dissipation that these moduleshave, and so we want to talk
about that.
And then, of course, we alsowant to talk about some of the
(12:10):
developments that have been inthe news recently, with the
revelation from DeepSeek thatthey were able to build a
training model that took lesstime and, according to some
people, less advanced hardwarein order to develop an open
source model.
That begs the question do weneed to continue to buy these
(12:35):
modules and upgrade our existingcapability, or can we use what
we have?
I mean, what is the refreshcycle with the modules in the
hardware side?
I mean because, after all, aiis a combination of hardware and
software, and you can't have AIwithout either one of them.
So the question is, are youmore dependent upon the hardware
(12:58):
?
Are you more dependent on thesoftware, and what is that bode
for the future?
So those are the kind of thingsthat we want to address.
We have a very exciting panel.
We have our keynote speakerfrom IBM Research is going to
join the panel.
We have a representative fromIntel, we have three OSATs
represented in Stats, chippack,asc and Amcor, and I think that
(13:20):
they'll help us to address someof the infrastructure and the
challenges from the perspectivesthat they are involved in.
And then, of course, they'reout there dealing with the
customers who are having thishardware built, and then
whatever other questions come upfrom people, there's certainly
a lot of emphasis on the growthin AI is driving the
(13:42):
semiconductor industry revenueand driving some of our assembly
and test revenue, and so thoseare the things I think we can
discuss at our meeting.
Francoise von Trapp (13:52):
Do you think we've finally gotten to
the point where the value add ofpackaging can command a higher
price point because it's goinginto AI modules?
One of the things I rememberfrom Semicon West last year was
how you know wafers themselveshave so much more value that
we're not just dealing with theold school.
(14:14):
Packaging just is a necessarycost adder.
Do you think, with applicationspaces like HPC and AI driving
things, that the manufacturingcompanies are more willing to
invest in advanced packagingsolutions?
Jan Vardaman (14:32):
Well, it's advanced packaging that enables
these solutions to become areality.
True, right.
And so you have to invest inthat advanced packaging if
you're going to achieve any ofthe capabilities that the chips
themselves promise.
As it becomes more complex, itbecomes more expensive, and it's
(14:52):
not just the assembly side,it's the test side also.
So don't forget about the test.
And so we have to look at thatin terms of it's not just are we
willing to pay more for it,it's we have to pay more for it,
it's we have to pay more for it.
And then how do we change thatpackaging to become more energy
efficient?
How do we change that packaging?
(15:13):
Is there a way to make it morecost effective?
But after all, at the end ofthe day, if you're charging
$40,000 a part, how concernedare you really about the cost of
the package?
Right?
exactly You're more concernedabout getting the package,
having the infrastructure inplace to manufacture those
packages in a timely fashion tomeet demand and to ship them out
(15:36):
the door, and so really thecost, in a high performance
situation, is not near theconcern.
It is for a consumer typeproduct.
Francoise von Trapp (15:50):
I'll be really interested to see what
the commentary is aroundDeepSeek, because it's still so
new in the news.
You know this happened just afew weeks ago where it seemed to
really have this huge impactright away on NVIDIA.
But then the more you digdeeper the questions around how
it is actually what it claims tobe.
Jan Vardaman (16:11):
Well, I think it's less important to look at
whatever DeepSync did.
The important, fundamentalquestion is can you build these
models off of less advancedhardware?
I mean, how much are youdependent upon the software?
It begs the question is what isthe refresh cycle on this?
(16:32):
Because, after all, what'sgoing to drive more demand is
not just more data centers, butperhaps a refresh and
replacement of the existingmodules in the data centers that
we have, and that's somethingthat we need to discuss, and
I've not really gotten asatisfactory answer to that yet.
I mean, certainly, from areliability perspective, these
(16:54):
things can last a long time, butyou know how long before you do
an upgrade.
I mean we know what therequirements are for.
You know an upgrade on theirserver CPUs, because that's what
happens all the time.
We know the cadence for that.
What we don't know is what'sthe cadence for the replacement
of the AI modules, and that'swhat we can discuss in this
(17:15):
panel and hopefully get somereally good answers and get
really engaged in the audienceto talk about this.
But one of the things that Ithink we should talk about is,
if we replace these with moreenergy efficient modules, will
that help us with the powerconsumption for the data center,
and I think those are the kindof things that we want to
(17:36):
address and talk about and whatkind of new ideas do people have
out there?
And hopefully we'll engage theaudience with this distinguished
group of panel members andwe'll have a great discussion.
Francoise von Trapp (17:50):
And that kind of plays into some of the
topic of this year's GBC, rightTim.
Tim Olson (17:55):
It sure does.
So our GBC, of course, by itsname it's kind of self-evident,
but we focus on the businessside of microelectronics
packaging, and so we're reallypleased to be part of IMAPS.
We're a plenary session that'sin the middle, so in the middle
of the day of the conference wededicate that morning to the
Global Business Council and weinvite speakers from the
(18:18):
industry to talk about the theme, and this year's theme is
scaling of artificialintelligence from the data
center to the consumer, and sowhat we've lined up is some
folks from the hyperscalers, themeta type application.
We've got a Qualcomm gentlemanto talk more about the kind of
what you could call edge or theconsumer side of using that AI.
(18:40):
We have Marvell, seniorexecutive, talking about the
chips and the advanced packagingarchitectures around those
chips that are used by thehyperscalers.
Marvell is one of the companiesat the heart of that, and then
we have Jan is actually going tobe speaker at GBC this year,
and we have another analyst fromEurope, joel.
So we're going to have someanalysts that know about the
(19:03):
industry give their perspectivesand we're going to have kind of
the whole value chain ofcommercial companies talk about
what they see in this idea of AIkind of taking over lots of
things all the way from datacenters to us as consumers.
Francoise von Trapp (19:17):
We've got the panel on Tuesday night and
then the GPC kind of picks upthe story and runs with it from
the business angle on Wednesday.
So that should be reallyinteresting combination.
Tim Olson (19:28):
Yes, and we have a panel actually to wrap up our
morning too, so all of our fivespeakers will be part of a panel
as well at the end of GBC thisyear, which is a little bit
different than previous.
Francoise von Trapp (19:39):
Well, we'll be having Jillian McNichol, who
is our new interconnectologyblogger, and she is developing a
passion for AI, and so we'll belooking to have her write
something about both of thesethings as she hones her skills
to become the empress of AI.
We have a queen of 3D, andshe's going to be the empress of
AI.
Tim Olson (20:01):
Wow, impressive.
Francoise von Trapp (20:02):
Okay.
So we've talked about keynotes,we've talked about GVC and the
panel.
We haven't really talked muchabout the technology tracks,
other than the fact that there'sfour of them and there's going
to be 80.
I don't think we want to gothrough all of the different
presentations.
We also have the kicking thingsoff on Monday with the
professional development coursesthat people should be taking
(20:26):
advantage of.
Do you want to say anythingabout that, amy?
Amy Lujan (20:30):
So professional development courses, we have 16
this year.
So that means that, based onhow the two-hour courses are set
up, there's four runningconcurrently, which is pretty
cool, because a couple of yearsago I think there were only 12,
and before then maybe fewer thanthat.
So our PDCs this year it's amix of familiar courses that I
(20:56):
think we all see show up somereally great basics that anyone
can come to year over year,especially if they're new to the
industry, along with some newblood as well, some new courses
mixed in.
Francoise von Trapp (21:10):
So will people be able to access these
as part of IMAPS Academy afterDPC?
If they weren't able to attend,will they be added to the
curriculum there?
Amy Lujan (21:21):
To the best of my knowledge, I think that's the
case for some of them.
We would need to ask an IMAPSperson about that specifically.
Francoise von Trapp (21:29):
Okay, so that leaves my favorite part of
the IMAPS device packagingconference, which is the
networking and everybody gettingto know each other and building
the community context.
So we've got a bunch ofnetworking opportunities,
beginning with a welcomereception right On the Monday
night, that's correct, and it'sa pretty casual reception to
(21:52):
officially kick things off.
Yeah, and then Tuesday there isthe, I think exhibitor reception
, that's right, reception in theexhibit hall, followed by Jan's
panel.
Yeah, followed by Jan's panel,and the panel generally has some
sort of food and beverageavailable to keep people from
fainting.
Jan Vardaman (22:13):
Yes, it does.
We always make sure as asponsor that that food and
beverage is highest qualitypossible.
Francoise von Trapp (22:22):
And you know it's a long day.
So once you're doing the panel,you know people need a little
bit of refreshment and itusually sparks some interesting
conversation as well.
Tim Olson (22:33):
I was going to say, if history repeats itself, the
libations help people to letdown some of their you know
inhibitions, and there's somereally exciting things that
happen in that evening panel Jan.
Francoise von Trapp (22:45):
We all laugh because we've all been
there before, but it is a not tobe missed event.
And then, of course, onWednesday there's the poster
sessions with Happy Hour andthis year, for the second time,
I'm super excited to talk aboutthe Backyard Olympics.
We have sponsors for this event.
The title sponsor is Liquidics,we have a drink sponsor, which
(23:08):
is Amcor, and we have our photosponsor, which is DECA.
Thank you, tim.
There are still sponsorshipsavailable for the different
games, but what we're trying todo here is kind of create an
environment or atmosphere ofplay where people can do some
team building.
It tends to also have peopleletting down their inhibitions
(23:30):
or the awkwardness of meetingpeople for the first time.
It's really great to meet overa game.
There's a lot of friendlycompetition that can go on here,
and we've upgraded a little bitfrom last year where we're
going to have a medal ceremony,so put your teams together.
It's being organized a bit likethe golf tournament and
proceeds will benefit the IMAPSMicroelectronics Foundation
(23:51):
Scholarship Fund, as is the golftournament, which is also
happening on Thursday afternoon.
I'm thinking of going out onthe golf course because I've
picked up golf in the lastcouple of years, so I'm looking
forward to the golf tournamentthis year.
Tim Olson (24:06):
Awesome.
Francoise von Trapp (24:08):
The other thing actually I want to mention
is that on Tuesday morningafter the keynotes, please stick
around before you go up to thecoffee hour to help celebrate
the 2025 3D Insights Awardwinners.
We'll be presenting the awardsduring that session, so we hope
people can stay around to helpcelebrate them.
Anything else to add?
Tim Olson (24:27):
Just that I'm looking forward to the new
Backyard Olympics.
Francois, that was a lot of funbefore, and what you've done to
it sounds like it'll be evenmore fun.
Francoise von Trapp (24:35):
So we've had lots of help from the IMAPS
committee.
They pretty much ran with it onour behalf.
So we do have the games there'scornhole On our behalf.
So we do have the games.
There's cornhole, there's golfchipping, there's pong.
Pull the hoop, axe throwing anda ring toss.
Apparently, at the new venuethere's a lot more space for it
and it's going to be a reallyfun time.
(24:57):
So when you sign up for yourregistration, you'll have the
opportunity to also sign up ateam for the backyard Olympics.
You'll also have theopportunity to sign up a
foursome for the golf.
So make sure you check that outand if you've already
registered and didn't add thosefun things in, then go back and
add them in, because really, inmy opinion, the best part of the
(25:17):
whole week.
Tim Olson (25:18):
It is wonderful.
Francoise von Trapp (25:21):
So where can people go to learn more?
Amy Lujan (25:24):
The IMAPS website, imapsorg.
There's a whole dedicated pageabout device packaging.
2025 has information about thedates where to stay, all kinds
of information, so that you canhopefully come join us.
It's my personal favoriteconference.
I go to a handful every year.
(25:44):
This is what I look forward tothe most.
It's a great mix of industry,friends and there's always some
new people that show up to startlearning, but I find it to be
the perfect size, so I'm reallylooking forward to seeing a lot
of people in about one monthhere.
Francoise von Trapp (26:04):
That's right, and I do think that, with
ASU being so close here,there's going to be a lot of
students, a lot of newcomers tothe industry.
If you are looking to fillcareer openings, here's an
opportunity to meet some people.
So, yeah, it's going to be areally great event.
I'm super excited and I lookforward to seeing you all there
(26:25):
us too thanks, everybody allright, thank you for having us
on thanks bye-bye.
There's lots more to come, sotune in next time to the 3d
insights podcast.
The 3d insights podcast is aproduction of 3d insights llc.
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