December 11, 2022 • 61 mins
Neil McKinlay is a meditation teacher and mentor. In this lovely interview he melts down a number of myths about meditation, breaking it open as a practise for everyone, with many benefits that find their way into everyday life.
For all the show notes and contact details head on over here.
If you love this show, please leave me a review. Go to RateThisPodcast.com/5starwellbeing and follow the simple instructions.
For all the show notes and contact details head on over here.
If you love this show, please leave me a review. Go to RateThisPodcast.com/5starwellbeing and follow the simple instructions.
Thanks so much for listening!
For everything else 5 Star Wellbeing please head to the Evenstar Wellbeing website.
Please join me on socials as well:
Facebook
Instagram
LinkedIN
Music by Ian Hildebrand
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Arwen Bardsley (00:00):
Okay, welcome, everybody. Welcome back to
another episode and delightedtoday to have another wonderful
guest for you. I've got NeilMcKinlay, who is a meditation
teacher and mentor. Neil hasspent all of his adult life more
than 25 years, but we won't giveaway your exact age, Neil,
(00:21):
immersed in the practice ofmeditation. He's now a highly
experienced meditation teacherand mentor conducting events of
more than 100 meditators bothonline and in person. He
currently teaches from VictoriaBC in Canada, just to define
that, because I'm in Victoria,Australia.
Neil McKinlay (00:41):
Yeah. Wow.
Arwen Bardsley (00:43):
So Neil, I'd like to just start with, you
know, a bit of background aboutyou, I love for people to
understand kind of how you getyou got to be doing what you're
doing now, what was what was thepath in however much detail you
want to give us, but it's justinteresting to find out how
people discover their path?
Neil McKinlay (01:04):
Well, I think there's two good ways to respond
to that. And before I do that,you know, thank you for having
me here. It's a real pleasure,real delight. I'm really looking
forward to this conversation.
And thank you to everyone who islistening. So how did I find my
path? I think there's two waysto respond to both of which are
(01:25):
interesting and informative. Oneis, how did I come to
meditation? And then, you know,another one would be how did I
get to a point, the point whereI'm doing what I'm actually
doing specifically right now,and that's a little bit more
involved a little bit moredetail. So let's go back to you
know, how did I start tomeditate. And I was a
(01:45):
competitive swimmer, when I wasa child and a young adult. And
at the risk of dating myself yetagain, that puts me in the late
70s, early 80s. And it was areally interesting time to be
involved with competitiveathletics. What we now, you
know, conventionally orcommonly, we'll call sports
(02:08):
psychology, was beginning toedge its way in to the
mainstream at that point intime, and the coaching staff
that I worked with, in that thatperiod was really open to that
kind of influence. And so we didall this stuff that you know,
now might seem really tame. Andyou know, every day, we did all
(02:30):
this weird stuff, we did goalsetting, and we did
visualization, and we didprogressive relaxation. And we
did subliminal messaging, whichmaybe is still a little bit odd
that one. And as part of thatsuite of tools that were
introduced, we were away at aswim meet. In Vancouver, one
(02:53):
weekend, and a bunch of us werestaying in a conference room in
a hotel with the assistant coachand the assistant coach on the
Saturday night, I vividlyremember it was a rainy, dark,
Saturday night in Vancouver,British Columbia. On Saturday
night, he taught us how tomeditate, you know, we rolled up
(03:13):
our sleeping bags, and wegathered all around. And he
taught us how to do a basic,Mantra based meditation
practice. And I don't rememberwhat he said, I don't remember
how everyone else reacted, but Ido remember, there was something
about it that was compelling tome, it was like, Oh, this is
something, you know, I wasn'table to define it. But it was
(03:39):
something and that something wasreally interesting. It was a
draw to me. And it kept me doingthe practice for a period of
years, you know, in a veryrudimentary, I don't really know
what I'm doing way it kept meengaging the practice. So that
is how I found my way in tomeditation was really through
the doorway that sportspsychology of the time opened
(04:04):
up.
Arwen Bardsley (04:07):
Great!
Neil McKinlay (04:10):
So that's, you know, how did I get into
meditation? And then how am Idoing what I'm doing now? Again,
that's a little bit moreinvolved. But after a few years
of of making my way throughmuddling my way through
meditation practice, more orless on my own, I started to
give what I was doing someformal structure. And I started
(04:33):
to study and practice in aseries of two successive
communities, both of which wererooted in Tibetan Buddhism, both
of which gave me opportunitiesto engage formal curriculum and
to do long retreats. And aroundabout 2016 My relationship with
the second of these communitiesreally started to unravel. I
(04:56):
started to feel uncomfortablewith the way the teacher, the
leader. was treating studentsespecially close senior students
like myself, it became apparentto me that in spite of what I
believed, in spite of what I wastold, in spite of what I as a
senior person in that communitytold others that what was
driving the situation was notthe teachings and not the
(05:19):
practices was not thedevelopment and the well being
of students. But it was the selfcentered impulses of the leader
himself. And the extent he waswilling to go to assert these,
to my I created an environmentcharacterized by manipulation by
disempowerment by disrespect. Byway of an example, he was a
(05:43):
master of what I call the baitand switch, saying, we're going
to do one thing, promising onething, and then switching it out
with something else andexpecting us all to silently go
along as if nothing hadhappened. Which, you know, in
isolation, I don't think soundslike much. But when the dynamic
repeats over a year, a period ofyears and plans and schedules
(06:05):
and lives are affected and upended, all by an authority
figure that one trusts whodoesn't seem overly concerned
with the consequences of hisactions. The effect is really
crazy making it what happened tome is it distorted my
relationship with my own innerknowing my own sense of
integrity, and of what's goingon here and now. And by 2019,
(06:30):
that distortion got so severethat I was just extremely
compromised, both mentally andphysically. And I had to leave.
And in 2000, early 2020,February of 2020, exactly, I
made this difficult, unnecessarychoice to leave, which to the
(06:53):
question you're raising thatopened up a path of recovering,
recovering and healing for me,and discovery and exploration
that continues to this day thathas actually opened up
meditation, my understanding ofmeditation in my presentation of
meditation in a whole new way.
Arwen Bardsley (07:11):
So were you so is that when you started
teaching, though,
Neil McKinlay (07:16):
I started teaching around about 2005.
After I was a swim coach, orafter I, my swimming career
ended, I popped out of the wateronto the pool deck, and I
started coaching and I coachedfor I think, about 20 years. And
that ended quite suddenly. And Iwas sitting at the kitchen table
one day with my head in myhands, literally my head in my
(07:39):
hands and saying, like, what amI going to do? What am I going
to do? And my wife walked by,she just walked by, I don't even
know if she stopped. I just canremember her walking by and she
said, Well, you're trained inmeditation, why don't you teach
people how to meditate? It waskind of like, oh, so around
about 2005 2006, I started toteach.
Arwen Bardsley (08:02):
Okay, so yeah, so of course, it's been a long
time. But so when you left thatcommunity, what, so it was that
kind of, you know, the realstructure for your life? And
then, you know, so you basicallydecided to leave and then
everything was different,
Neil McKinlay (08:23):
very much. So I mean, it was a structure for my
life, it was a structure for mylivelihood, because I was
teaching in that context. Andthat context was probably
responsible for about 60 or 70%of my annual income. It was a
structure socially, it was astructure spiritually,
financially. I mean, it was astructure that I had, on a
(08:49):
couple of, you know, kind ofturning point occasions made
conscious decision to step intoin a really deep way. And so,
when I made that choice, again,a difficult but necessary choice
to leave. There was this senseof leaving all of that behind?
Arwen Bardsley (09:06):
Yeah. And are you do you still practice
Buddhism?
Neil McKinlay (09:10):
I do. Yeah, very much. So you know, the work that
I do is still grounded in theBuddhist teachings. I try to use
very ordinary everyday language.
So I don't often talk aboutegolessness or emptiness or
anything like that. But thegrounding is certainly there in
that tradition.
Arwen Bardsley (09:32):
Yeah, good.
Yeah, I'm glad you didn't feellike you know, you had to even
give up your your faith as itwere.
Neil McKinlay (09:40):
Well, that was one of the difficult things
about the whole situation is Ithink, you know, to use your
words, giving up that faith ofwalking away from the teachings
and walking away from thepractice practices. It was
tempting and I know many of myyou know, former peers have
understandably done that becauseYou know that those were the
(10:02):
teachings and practices withinthat provided the the context
within which this dysfunctionalrelationship took took shape.
And for whatever reason, and itreally kind of goes back to
that, you know, night inVancouver sitting on a sleeping
bag and meditating for the firsttime, you know, I felt drawn to
(10:23):
the practice in a way I couldn'tand still can't articulate. And
it's the same thing here, youknow, once I left that
community, you know, while therewas a tremendous sense of
relief, that leaving, the losswas phenomenal. I had no idea
what to do. And much to mysurprise, because I can't
explain the why of it. I turnedto what was familiar, I turned
(10:47):
to meditation practice.
Arwen Bardsley (10:51):
Yeah. And so that would have been right at
the beginning of the pandemic,as well, he made that decision.
And then did that kind of openup that online teaching method?
Neil McKinlay (11:03):
Very much, very much. So, you know, when I left
the community, so we're talkingFebruary 2020, when I left,
that, that community, it was asurvival thing, you know, I
needed to get out for my ownsanity and survival. So I wasn't
really thinking aboutlivelihood, although obviously,
(11:26):
you know, there's a big, bigimpact there. When COVID hit,
you know, this neck of thewoods, and I think it was late
March that our lock downs, ourfirst series of lockdown
started. So when COVID hit thisneck of the woods in late March,
and the remaining 30, or 40%, ofmy livelihood, vanished. That's
(11:48):
when the Financial piece kind ofclicked. And, you know, I was
like, Well, what am I going todo? And I would already been
teaching online to a certainextent, and I broadened that and
started to offer, you know,community practice that's now
evolved into what is called theonline gatherings.
Arwen Bardsley (12:09):
So can you tell us a bit about that, because I'm
kind of fascinated by this ideaof, you know, more than 100
people online meditatingtogether, like I get that, you
know, I can see in my mind'seye, you know, and feel like
what it would feel like inperson, obviously, because I've
done probably not with more than100 people, but I've certainly
(12:30):
done that. But online, just tellus a bit about that.
Neil McKinlay (12:35):
Well, it's actually a really wonderful
format. And the onlinegatherings are currently smaller
than the 100 plus, which issomething that comes from my
past at this point. But there'sa group of we meet, there's the
option of meeting three times aweek, we meet on Tuesday,
Thursday, and Saturday, PacificTime. And probably at any one
(13:01):
gathering, you might see betweenfour and a dozen or 14 people
there. And what's it like toactually practice in that way,
it's become a really intimateand affecting context,
environment in within which wesit together. We used to joke
(13:23):
about it initially, but we getto actually sit with people in
their lives in some littlecorner of their lives. And we
actually become familiar withpeople in a way that we don't
become familiar when we're inperson, not that one's better or
worse than the other. But we getto see people's backgrounds, we
(13:46):
get to see people's homes, weget to see how those change and
evolve over time, whether it's,you know, there's a different
set of books behind me orwhether the location has shifted
a little bit. And you know, thisagain, this may sound like not
much, it may sound like a verykind of small thing. But it's
actually deeply affecting hadbeen deeply affecting over the
(14:08):
months and years that we've beencoming together because in a
couple of ways, one, thatfamiliarity, I feel like it
begins to ease its way intoourselves. And so there's a
cellular familiarity with oneanother in an ordinary everyday
here's a corner of my bedroom,kind of way. The other way that
(14:32):
I think it's really affecting isthe ordinary and everydayness of
it it really brings theteachings and the practices down
to that level. And in myexperience, that's where the
teachings and practices are mostpotent when we perforate any
notion that they might betranscendent or divine or
(14:56):
separate from the stuff of oureveryday life and begin and to
apply them to or see theirrelevance in, you know, going to
the grocery store or going tothe mall, getting up and going
to make dinner and all that kindof stuff. And so the ordinary
everydayness of the onlinecontext, and the fact that we
(15:20):
keep meeting, you know, weekafter week after week, it has a
familiarity, that's wonderful.
And it has a kind of groundingquality that I feel is, you
know, if, in my experience, ifwe're going to bring meditation
more fully into our lives, whichI think is really the intention
of the practice, it's notintended to be kept under a bell
(15:41):
jar. If we're going to bringmeditation more fully into our
lives, I think it's important toreally bridge the sometimes easy
to assume gap between those two.
And the online context, actuallyis a really potent tool in that.
Arwen Bardsley (16:02):
That is, yeah, really good point. I'm so glad I
asked you that question. So Ithink I better get from you,
Neil, what your definition ofmeditation is?
Neil McKinlay (16:14):
Yeah, so I guess I'm gonna answer that in two
ways. One is, you know, everyform of meditation that I know,
and I don't know, every form ofmeditation, we're just talking
about every form of meditationthat I know, shares, a central
dynamic, and the central dynamicinvolves taking our wandering
(16:35):
attention, or normally wanderingattention, and asking it to rest
somewhere. And, again, everyform of meditation that I'm
familiar with shares thatdynamic, take our wandering
attention, ask it to restsomewhere, where the practices
vary is where we're asked torest that attention. You know,
(16:57):
some practices we'll be asked torest our attention on a mantra,
some practices we'll be asked torest our attention on an image,
some practices we'll be asked torest our attention on a candle,
for instance, the style ofpractice that I teach, which is
embodied meditation, we rest ourattention, we turn toward and
settle into the immediacy of ourembodied life. So we turn our
(17:21):
attention toward our embodiedexperience, that would be a
general and specific definitionof meditation.
Arwen Bardsley (17:30):
And can you talk a bit more about this embodied
experience for people who, likeme, I'm not quite sure what you
mean, when you say that?
Neil McKinlay (17:38):
Yeah. So I used to just say we turn our
attention toward the body. Okay,and then that, you know, that's
great, okay. So what you'redoing is you're taking your
attention, and you're puttingyour attention somewhere in the
body, so your breathing or yourshoulder or your toe, something
like that. Okay, I understandthat. I used to say that. And
(17:59):
one of the things that becameapparent after time was that
that language was actually toolimiting. It really reinforced
the notion of body as a separateisolated entity, which it really
isn't, I mean, just on the levelof, of breathing, you know,
we're constantly taking breathin through the pores of our
(18:22):
entire body. And so I started toexperiment with different kinds
of language. And I came to orI've landed on using this term
embodied experience, which is anumbrella term. And roughly
speaking, that means we'returning our attention toward an
inclusive experience ofembodiment an experience that is
(18:46):
in is inclusive of our body, ourpersonal body, which most of us
associate with the termembodiment. It's also inclusive
of what you might call therelational body of the sense
perceptions, what the senseperceptions are, and what they
know, the light in the room, thetemperature in the room that the
(19:08):
garbage truck that keeps beepingoutside my window, as we're
talking here. And then it's alsoinclusive of the body of the
Earth, or the body of the worldof which we are a part, you
know, this sense of open,steady, still dynamic suchness.
(19:29):
And so, we're turning ourattention toward the fullness of
that and we may focus on say,the breath in the lower belly.
But there's always a sense ofokay, this is a focus with in a
more inclusive understanding ofembodiment. An understanding
that is inclusive of at leastthese three layers of body.
Arwen Bardsley (19:54):
Yep. Okay, beautiful. And talk to us about
you know like, it is a practiceyou have to you have to keep
doing it, basically, don't you?
Yeah. Can you just talk a bitabout that? And you know, people
the question that all, you know,people always ask is, Well, how
(20:15):
long should I do it for? And howoften should I do it? Which, you
know, the answer I realize ishow long is a piece of string?
But can you just give us yourthoughts around that?
Neil McKinlay (20:28):
Yeah, and you know, I'm pretty much of the
piece of string School ofthinking. And my grade three
teacher, Mrs. MacGibbon. Iremember, she was asking us to
write, I don't know, aparagraph, an essay was probably
a paragraph, it was grade three.
And I remember I went up, and Isaid, you know, how long does
this need to be? And she said,as long as a piece of string,
(20:49):
and I puzzled over that foryears, I mean, how long is a
piece of string? But I used tobe very, more prescriptive, you
know, and so I would say, Well,an hour a day, every day, for
the rest of your life, which wasthe instruction that I received,
however, many years ago, andthere was this interesting thing
(21:09):
that happened, you know, so thiswas an instruction I used to
offer in some of the firstclasses I offered in person here
in Victoria. And, you know, wewould, it would be an eight week
series, that would be eightclasses, and around about six,
or class six or seven, I'd startto talk about practicing at
home. And you know, everyone'smostly polite by that point, you
(21:30):
know, the people who are therethe people who really want to be
and are curious aboutcontinuing. And so everyone
listened to me and nodded. But Icould feel that as soon as I
said that everyone kind of gotup and left the room. Right? You
know, like, sorry. And so Iexperimented, like, what if I
say, 45 minutes? What if I say30 minutes? What if I say 20
(21:50):
minutes. And what I noticed is,while there was a sense of fewer
people, psychically getting upand leaving, there, were still
people getting up and leavingthe room energetically like,
okay, the expert has said thatmeditation must be this way. And
I can't do that, or I'm notinspired in that to do that. So
I guess it's not for me. Andafter a few years of going
(22:13):
through that, you know, I'm alittle bit slow on the uptake, I
guess. But after a few years ofgoing through that, I started to
really flip the equation. Andrather than having meditation,
or the tradition, or the expertdefine what an appropriate
practice is, I started toexplore and experiment with
(22:37):
well, what if our lives what ifour the realities and the
inspiration of our everydaylives determined how much we
practice, you know, embodiedmeditation is about trusting our
lives as they are? So what weactually trust into that, as we
craft a practice? And so I, whenI'm asked that question, I
(23:03):
really encourage people to lookat the realities of your life,
you know, sometimes, there'sjust not a lot of time
available. Sometimes there'smuch more. And then look at the
level of your inspiration, someof us are really drawn to
practice 30 40 50 minutes a day,others of us are not. And then
(23:23):
based upon the dance betweenthose two, come to an agreement
for yourself about whatmeditation practice is going to
look like for you in terms ofduration and frequency. So
rather than again, putting theexpert first, let's put our life
first and at that, and I reallythink this is this isn't it
(23:44):
sound is actually a really,really big point. Rather than
putting the expert first, let'sput our life first. And at that
point, the expert becomes asupport for what our lives are.
So rather than me say, wellArwen you should practice an
hour a day, every day for therest of your life, you come to
me and say, Well, I think I cando like 10 minutes a day, three
(24:07):
days a week. What might thatlook like? Then? You know, we
can talk and craft somethingthat works for you based on
that?
Arwen Bardsley (24:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Great. So if I said that, whatwould you say?
Neil McKinlay (24:23):
10 minutes a day, three days a week, I would say,
you know, so the practice that Iteach, has, can have a lying
down component and a sitting upcomponent. And when you're
looking at 10 minutes, that'sprobably about the minimum for
putting both of these twotogether for having the time if
you're going under 10 minutes,I'd encourage people to either
(24:45):
wholly lay down or just sit up.
So we'd begin to look at apractice where you're doing
about half lying down and halfsitting up, roughly speaking.
And, you know, I'd encourage youto take the time lying down to
just develop a sense ofpresence, a sense of hereness a
sense of I'm in this room. It'swarm, it's cold, there's noise,
(25:09):
I'm starting to settle. And oncethere was a sufficient sense or
notable sense of presence, I'dencourage you to come up into an
upright position, work withposture. And we could talk that
through a little bit. And thenbegin the practice of turning
your attention toward yourembodied life, this personal
body, this relational body, thisearth body, and starting to
(25:35):
settle in to that. That would bethe rough guideline.
Arwen Bardsley (25:45):
And so why do you do the lying down and
sitting up?
Neil McKinlay (25:50):
The lying down is really great for slowing down.
It's really easy in myexperience, to bring the speed
and momentum of our everydaylives into our meditation
practice, right? So like, Okay,I'm done work, I've picked up
the groceries, I put away thedishes, I'm going to sit down
and meditate. I'm sitting downto meditating present, I'm
(26:11):
putting my attention towards myembodied experience following
the breath in the belly, becauseI need that anchor today, here I
am meditating, okay, I'm done,I'm gonna go make dinner, then
I'm going to pick up the youknow, and so the lying down
because it is so relaxing. Andrestorative, is really conducive
to just slowing down. And beingquiet, and beginning to let this
(26:35):
sense of presence that's builtin to who we are bubble to the
surface. And that presence thenbecomes the context within which
we do the sitting up. And so youcould say, well, why even sit
up, like, why not just continuelaying down which, of course you
could do, you could continuelying down, the thing that's
(26:55):
advantageous about sitting up iswe're beginning to cultivate,
you know, the kind of turningtoward the kind of settling the
kind of relationship with ourown inner being, that meditation
offers us we're beginning tocultivate it in an upright way,
meaning it has that immediatesense of connection with our
(27:17):
everyday life. You know, it'skind of like a a way station
between lying down and gettingup and going to do the dishes.
And so that that sitting up isat the relaxation, or the lying
down is advantageous from thepoint of view of relaxation,
slowing down presence, thesitting up is really
(27:38):
advantageous because it helps usconnect the practice, the
qualities that we reconnectwith, through the practice, with
the stuff of our everyday life.
Arwen Bardsley (27:52):
Yeah, I really like that I've never, you know,
experienced, you know, doingboth in one session. So I think
that's really great explanation.
Thank you. And with sitting upwhat, what guidelines do you
give people about that?
Neil McKinlay (28:09):
I think that if I had to give one guideline, a
single guideline, I would, I'mprobably going to diverge from
my assertion that I'm going todo a single guideline here, but
I would say, ensure that you'resitting up in such a way that
your knees are lower than yourhip crease. What that does is it
(28:31):
lets your pelvis tilt forward.
And then lets the pelvic floor,touch the whatever you're
sitting on, whether you'resitting on a bench, whether
you're sitting on the floor,whether you're sitting on a
chair, it lets your pelvic floorground with the earth. And then
this becomes, you know, kind oflike that one of the keystones,
(28:53):
of our whole meditation practiceand the whole way of living that
we're developing here, thatsense of grounded connection
with the earth underneath. Andso that would be kind of the
main, the first thing I wouldsay, you know, if people came
into a room with me and said,Okay, tell me about sitting.
(29:15):
Let's talk about sitting in achair, sitting in a chair and
meditating. The first thing Iwould talk about, it's like,
okay, let's adjust the height ofthis chair. And you can do it
with blankets, you can do itwith yoga blocks, you can do it
if you have an up and down echair like I do right now you
can do it with that led to justthe height of the chair so that
(29:35):
your knees are lower than yourhip crease so that your pelvic
floor is or so that your pelvisis tilting naturally forward and
your pelvic floor is rootedbeginning to root in the earth.
Arwen Bardsley (29:49):
Yeah, so for most people sitting cross legged
on the floor, just straight onthe floor. That would not be the
case. Yeah, yeah. So but maybeif you lift your So your pelvis
up again, on a cushion or astool, then yeah.
Neil McKinlay (30:05):
And I mean, once again, let's we're coming back
to that notion of you werequietly coming back to this
here, but I want to reaffirm it,we're coming back to that notion
of placing our lives and ourrealities at the forefront and
asking the tradition and theexpert to kind of support us as
we do that. And, you know, thereality is some people are quite
(30:28):
comfortable sitting crosslegged, and other people are
not. And so, you know, you cansit cross legged on the floor,
you can sit cross legged on someprops, you can kneel on a bench,
you can sit in a chair. All ofthese are completely appropriate
ways to sit and meditate, andthe one that's best is the one
(30:51):
that's most appropriate to you.
Arwen Bardsley (30:53):
Yeah, and I always remember another
meditation teacher saying, youknow, you've really got to be
comfortable, because if you'renot comfortable, then you know,
your, your focus is going toconstantly be drawn to that
discomfort and not on this otherthing that that, you know,
you're trying to focus on asmeditation.
Neil McKinlay (31:15):
Yeah, I remember the very first time I did a long
retreat, there was a groupretreat. And I sort of glommed
on to one of the people who wassitting up front leading us, and
in my mind, somehow decided thatthat's the way a meditator
should sit. And so I spent thebulk of a month trying to
(31:38):
emulate them. And I spent thebulk of a month being completely
miserable, not meditating,because it just didn't work for
my body. And I was souncomfortable that the only
thing I was focusing on wasdiscomfort. And so yeah, I think
that's a really important point,you know, we need to be
(31:59):
reasonably be reasonablycomfortable, we need to be
sitting in a way that actuallyworks for the realities of our
embodied lives for the realitiesof our body.
Arwen Bardsley (32:11):
Yeah, and everybody's body is different.
So
Neil McKinlay (32:16):
everybody's body is different. I remember doing a
class. And again, it was one ofthese early classes, it was
eight weeks long, and there wassomeone in the class, they sat
right in front of me. And thefirst week, they just couldn't
stop moving. And week 2 3 4 5 6,that was the same thing. But
they started to bring props inaddition to what we had
(32:36):
available to try and mitigatethis. And in week seven, they
showed up and they had so manyprops, they had blankets, and
they had bolsters, and they hadwedges, and they had foamies,
and they had rolled up T bat,tea bags, tea towels. And I was
like what is going on here. Andagain, they're sitting right in
front of me. So I got a bird'seye view of this. And after
(32:58):
about 10 minutes of fussingaround with all this, for the
first time in like six or eightweeks. They were still Yeah, and
it was so beautiful and soaffecting. I mean, the stillness
was beautiful unto itself. Theother thing that was so striking
for me, was the certainty I hadthat no one in the universe had
(33:21):
ever quite sat in that way. Andit was just a real lesson for
me. It really taught me a lot.
Arwen Bardsley (33:29):
Yeah, absolutely. I'm doing yin yoga
teacher training at the moment.
And that is just such an eyeopener in terms of how
everybody's body is different.
There's so much skeletalvariation and sitting cross
legged for some people. Yeah, asyou said, it's fine. But for
many people, it is veryuncomfortable.
Neil McKinlay (33:49):
Yes, yes.
Arwen Bardsley (33:52):
So are there any other myths about meditation
that you'd like to bust?
Neil McKinlay (33:58):
I love myth busting with meditation. You
know, the first one is that weneed to have an empty mind. I
can't tell you the number oftimes, you know, people have
told me they've said somethingin class or some other context.
They've said, Well, you know,you said that meditation needs
(34:18):
to have an empty mind. And Ijust can't do that. So I guess
meditation is not for me. Andwhat is interesting is the the
depth and pervasiveness of thismyth, because I guarantee you
I've never actually said that,not once, because it is not
necessary that we have an emptymind. We work with whatever is
going on for us in this moment,and sometimes our mind will be
(34:39):
relatively empty. And sometimesour mind will be chattering away
like, you know, a chipmunk. Andone of these is more pleasant
than the other. I will grant youthat. But from the point of view
of meditation practice, one ofthese is not necessarily better
than the other. What we're doingis we're develop hoping our
(35:00):
capacity to turn our attentiontoward our embodied experience
to settle in and reconnect withsome basic qualities in our
human being. So it's not reallyabout the thoughts. It's about
loosening our grip on thethoughts, certainly, and then
letting our attention turnelsewhere. While the thoughts
(35:23):
are just allowed to do whateverthe thoughts are going to do,
you know, they'll chatter awayfor a while they'll dissipate,
they'll change, you know, that'sthe nature of that particular
creature. Yeah. So Myth numberone. Absolutely. Myth number
one, is it's not necessary tohave an empty mind. Myth number
(35:44):
two, is those thoughts thatromant remain, we don't have to
get rid of them. You know,again, what we're doing with the
practice of meditation is we'reloosening our grip on those
thoughts. And then letting ourattention turn elsewhere. And
that's an interestingdescription. And I think it's
easy to miss this in thedescription. But it implies that
(36:06):
the difficulties we get in towith thoughts is not really the
thoughts or the thinkingthemselves, it's our gripping.
It's our tendency to grip ontothem. And so we're loosening
that grip, and turning ourattention. And then just as I
said, letting thoughts do theirown thing, letting them have the
life that they want and need tohave, whilst we begin to attend
(36:30):
to the immediacy of our embodiedlives.
Arwen Bardsley (36:34):
Because we've got to honor the fact that our
brain is designed to think,
Neil McKinlay (36:39):
yeah, yeah. Yeah.
And I mean, that's a great agreat way of putting it, I often
put it, you know, if we're goingto get into an argument with our
thinking mind, we're going tolose, so let's just not do it.
Oh, another way of putting it asthe way you put it, let you
know, just honor the fact thatthat's what our mind does. And
it's like, well, thank you verymuch for doing that. I'm going
to turn my attention here forthe moment
Arwen Bardsley (37:03):
for as long as I can, until you come back
Neil McKinlay (37:04):
for as long as I can.
Arwen Bardsley (37:07):
I can Okay, any other myths?
Neil McKinlay (37:11):
I think we've touched upon, you know, some
others that I'm probably helpfulto make explicit one is that,
you know, meditation doesn'tneed to look a particular way.
How it's how it's going to beexperienced for each of us is
going to be different. Anothermyth that I think is worth
(37:37):
pointing out regardingmeditation is that meditation
actually doesn't relax us, whichoften shocks people because you
come to a class, and that's oneof the first thing people
encounter when we do our firstmeditation session together, you
know, it's like, Oh, I feel sorelaxed. So meditation doesn't
relax us. What meditation doesis meditation reconnects us with
(38:03):
a basic meaning inherent,innate, fundamental sense of
well being and ease that existswithin us. There is a sense of
well being and ease that existswithin us that is not
conditioned by, are we having agood day? Or are we having a bad
(38:23):
day do we wear glasses orcontacts is our hair long or
short? What meditation does isit turns out, helps us turn our
attention and settle in andbegin to connect with, among
other things, that sense of wellbeing and ease. And it seems
like maybe a small item tohighlight, but I think it's such
(38:44):
an important item to highlight.
Because, in one view, we'resomewhat disempowered. You know,
we kind of have to use thispractice called meditation to
create something that's notthere. Ease and relaxation. In
another view, it's veryempowering and affirming of who
we are as human beings. It'ssaying, okay, slow down, turn
(39:06):
your attention, settle in, andwho you fundamentally are, is a
sense of ease. Well, beingrelaxation, of course, we're
still going to have thosechattering thoughts and the
dishes are still going to bedirty, and we're going to stub
our toes and bang our knees andall the rest of it. Within that,
(39:28):
there is this sense of wellbeing and ease among other
things that, you know, we canaccess at any time. And I think
that's a really, reallyimportant point about
meditation. So an important mythto use your words bust is that
(39:48):
sense that meditation relaxesus. No. Meditation puts us in
touch with a fundamental senseof ease and well being and
relaxation.
Arwen Bardsley (40:01):
And so what other, I mean, that is a big
benefit. But are there otherbenefits that you feel that
people take into their everydayembodied lives from having a
meditation practice?
Neil McKinlay (40:18):
Yeah, I mean, I think we could talk about that
in a lot of different ways. Imean, there is a growing body of
scientific research that'stalking about, you know, the
effects on our blood pressure,the effects on our neurological
functioning, you know, theeffect on, you know, cardiac
health and well being. And Ithink these are all really,
(40:39):
really important, valuablebenefits. One of the ones that
has been coming up for me a lot,and it's been coming up within
online gatherings, this teachingonline teaching contexts that
we've talked about. It's beencoming up in my own life is
(41:03):
meditate, in addition toconnecting us with this
fundamental sense of ease, andwell being meditation actually
connects us with other qualitiesthat are innate in us as well.
And so let's go back to thebeginning of this interview,
when we talked about how Ibecame involved in meditation,
(41:24):
and then how I got to where I amright now. And I talked about
this difficult and dysfunctionalrelationship that I was part of
that I left. And, you know, whenI left, as we talked about, the
sense of relief was enormous.
And the sense of lostness wasphenomenal. I just literally
didn't know what to do, I didn'thave a clue. And for reasons I
(41:46):
do not comprehend, I turnedtowards the familiarity of
meditation practice. And so Istarted to settle into turn
toward and settle into what washappening for me that lostness,
I started to turn toward notchange, not get rid of not
transform, but turn toward it.
(42:07):
And as I settled into this moreand more, there was this
experience of knowing thatshowed up again, and again, that
often spoke directly to what washappening for me, in my life,
often posts spoke directly tothat sense of lostness. And this
suggested a phase of meditationthat I had never really
consciously recognized beforeone in which I let the wisdom or
(42:32):
the knowing or the intelligencethat arises out of this
settling, this basicintelligence is just waiting to
be connected with, I let thiswisdom that arises out of
settling into the stuff of mylife, begin to guide and direct
me through my life. And Istarted doing that it's the
silver lining of having no clueof what else to do is, I started
(42:56):
to actually trust that so if Iwas tired, I would rest. If I
was lonely, I'd reach out, if Iwas stuck, I would reach out to
my I would engage my traumatherapist and do a little bit of
work there. And what happenedthrough this process is I
started to heal this deeplydamaged relationship with my own
(43:21):
inner wisdom, and discover thatthe stuff of my immediate
embodied life, even when it's asdifficult as the calamitous end
of a 20 year relationship, thestuff of my immediate embodied
life, actually has something tosay about the direction and
(43:43):
purpose of my life. And that, tome, has proven over the last
couple of years, invaluable,utterly invaluable. And I think
it's something many of us, askourselves, you know, well, how
do I find my direction? And howdo I find my purpose? And I
(44:03):
think there's many, manyappropriate, helpful answers to
this. And one answer that Iwould offer is, that's something
that meditation actually can do.
For us. That's something thatmeditation actually offers us is
a tool through which we developa deeper relationship with the
stuff of our embodied lives, andwith the intelligence and the
(44:25):
wisdom and the knowing and theguidance and the direction that
is an innate within thatinherent within that waiting for
us to just connect and follow.
Arwen Bardsley (44:38):
We are so disconnected from it, though,
aren't we, in our modern lives?
Neil McKinlay (44:44):
very disconnected. You know, I think
it's the silver lining of youknow, what I went through, I
would never wish on anybody.
I'll be clear. I would neverwish on anybody it was and it
continues to be an extremelydifficult experience. However,
there's a silver lining to it.
When, with my life being soupended and so, disintegrated by
(45:11):
that experience, with myselffeeling so lost, it put me in a
place where I had little otherto do than trust it. Because the
so much of the known andfamiliar had just been swept
aside. And so the silver liningof this calamitous experience
(45:32):
is, you know, it helped meperforate I love that work. It
helped me perforate some of thevitual ways that I normally just
dismiss or diminish or distort.
So that, you know, there's beena gift in the difficulty and the
calamity as well.
Arwen Bardsley (45:52):
Yeah, beautiful.
Neil McKinlay (45:53):
Can I go back, Arwen? Sorry to interrupt you,
can I go back? Okay, myth numberfive. I think we're myth number
five, I think this is somethingI really like to get in here is
I no longer believe thatmeditation is the solitary
(46:13):
activity that I once thought itwas. And I said that one of the
ways I kind of worked my waythrough, I am working my way
through the difficulties thatI've been that I've endured is
the practice of meditation. Theother piece that's absolutely
(46:35):
essential in this is community.
A lot of the meditation thatI've done the last two, two and
a half years has been incommunity, it's been with others
with the end of that difficultrelationship, and with the
arrival of COVID, as we'vetalked about, all my livelihood
vanished. So I started doingthings online, which become the
online gathering community now.
(46:56):
And in doing so, I got actuallyto see the brilliant, the
articulate the vulnerable andadaptive ways that others were
engaging meditation, certainly,but also meeting the challenges
and the difficulties of theirlives. What this did for me is
again, and again, it reminded meor it affirmed for me the
(47:19):
existence of this basic wisdom,this basic knowing this basic
intelligence. Some days, I couldnot see it, in my own experience
in my own life, I could notbelieve it in my own experience
and my own life. And then I'dsit down in the online
gatherings, and I would see itmanifest in living color in
(47:39):
front of me. And it thataffirmation was, was and
continues to be utterlyessential. It reminds me again,
and again and again, is yes,there's something basic in us,
that is brilliant, and radiant,and clear, and tender and
(48:01):
responsive. There's something inus that is fundamentally
intelligent, fundamentally,knowing, and there's something
in us that can actually help usfind our way forward in our
lives in a way that's alignedwith the reality of this
embodied life. And I couldn't, Icould put post it notes all over
(48:24):
our home. And I wouldn't be ableto remember it in the same way
that I do in a one hour gapmeeting of the online
gatherings. I leave thosemeetings. And I'm like, oh,
yeah, basic nature, which is,you know, one of the ways that
tradition talks about what we'retalking about here, oh, yeah,
basic nature. It's real. It'sthere, I can connect with it.
This is one of the points ofmeditation practice, I can let
(48:47):
it begin to flow, or guide meinto the stuff of my everyday
lives.
Arwen Bardsley (48:53):
And so do you kind of recommend that people do
some meditation in communityrather than just on their own?
Neil McKinlay (49:00):
That's an interesting question. I actually
never have, although I wouldthink at this point, I would say
if people have the opportunity,and one of the great things
about the growing, familiaritywith online technology is more
of us have more and more of thatopportunity. You know, if people
have that opportunity, Idefinitely recommend people take
(49:22):
advantage of it. Because it'sbeen transformative for me and I
see it as being transformativewith those that I work with.
Arwen Bardsley (49:32):
So tell us about your I mean, I know you've
you've told us how it kind ofoperates. But you know if people
want to join you in your onlinecommunity, or I think you've got
more than one Don't you whatwhat what can they do?
Neil McKinlay (49:45):
Well, the the great clearing house for you
know what I'm doing isdefinitely my website. And that
is Neil mckinlay.com and I am arare McKinlay that hasn't L-a-y
at the end of my name, not anL-E-Y? And, you know, take a
(50:06):
look at the website, you know,because what I offer on the
whole is somewhat broad. There'sa lot of different offerings
there that you can take a lookat and familiarize with, there's
a newsletter, which is a reallygreat way to familiarize over
time with what's being offered.
So if you're so inclined, youknow, sign up for the
newsletter. It's got upcomingevents and teachings and special
(50:29):
offers. And it always reminds uswhen it shows up every month,
oh, yes, meditation practice.
Well, it's true. I mean, I ran,I can't tell you the number of
times I've run into people onthe street here in Victoria.
And, you know, they say, oh, youknow, you just put out a
newsletter I really enjoyed. I'mreally glad I got that. And I
(50:51):
said, Oh, well, did you read theblog? Did you like the clip that
I included? They said, Well, no,I actually never even opened it.
And I said, Well, what do youlike, why do you appreciate it?
And they would say, Well, everymonth it shows up, and it
reminds me, oh, yeah,meditation. And I used to be a
bit chuffed at this, like, comeon newsletters are a lot of
work, and there's a lot inthere. Yeah. And then I realized
(51:14):
back to this notion of let's putthe expert second and our lives
first, if that's what people aregetting out of it. That's
awesome. That once a month,there's that sense of Oh,
meditation, I'm going to givethis a shot. And so that would
be you know, my initialsuggestion is just go to the
(51:37):
website, take a look around.
Take a look at my website, or mymy newsletter, if you're so
inclined. Not to pile it on. Butif someone's really feeling
like, Wow, I love the sound ofthis online gatherings. Send me
an email, let me know thatyou've listened to this podcast.
And I can send you a one weekfree trial to the online
(51:57):
gathering so people can go andgive it a trial that way, but
the starting point is definitelythe the website,
Neilmckinlay.com.
Arwen Bardsley (52:10):
And so if people want to send you an email, they
can do that through the website.
Neil McKinlay (52:15):
Yes. There's a contact there too.
Arwen Bardsley (52:17):
Yeah. Okay. All right. So yeah, do you cuz I
realized at the start, I saidNeil McKinlay, but do you just
pronounced at McKinley?
Neil McKinlay (52:26):
I pronounced it McKinley and I smiled with
tremendous pleasure when yousaid McKinlay.
Arwen Bardsley (52:34):
I normally check with people before I start
recording about pronunciation,but I just thought I just had
it. Okay, so yeah, so that'sgreat. Because I was gonna say,
is there any particular youknow, programs or anything you
want to tell people about, butit sounds like it's all on your
website. And if they sign up forthe newsletter, in particular,
(52:54):
then they'll get some some hottips on special offers and what
you're doing so you run theseregular things, and then you'll
do sort of one off workshoppykind of things as well, and that
sort of stuff. Is that right?
Neil McKinlay (53:07):
Yeah, I do do some in person stuff here in
Victoria, British Columbia. Butmost of my work is now online,
the main pieces, the onlinegatherings, of course, but I
also do semi regular, you know,monthly mini retreats, where on
a Sunday morning here in thePacific Northwest, we do a you
(53:30):
know, three hours of practicetogether. And there's there are
other events that do come upless regularly, but they do
recur. So there's a lot goingon.
Arwen Bardsley (53:40):
Yeah. All right.
Great. Well, I have reallyenjoyed our chat, Neil, it's
been great and absolutely loveall your insights into
meditation. And I hope that ithelps some people to feel you
know, some freedom in the factthat they that they can do this
because I absolutely believethat it's something that it's a
practice that everybody shouldin some way, shape or form have
(54:05):
their life and you've made ityou know, really nice that
people can understand they don'thave to be doing an hour a day,
every day by any means. So yeah,that's really great. I'm really
grateful for your for your timetoday.
Neil McKinlay (54:21):
Yeah, well, it's been a pleasure. It's been a
pleasure. And thank you toeveryone who's listening for the
opportunity as well.
Arwen Bardsley (54:28):
Thanks, Neil.
Okay, welcome, everybody. Welcome back to
another episode and delightedtoday to have another wonderful
guest for you. I've got NeilMcKinlay, who is a meditation
teacher and mentor. Neil hasspent all of his adult life more
than 25 years, but we won't giveaway your exact age, Neil,
(00:21):
immersed in the practice ofmeditation. He's now a highly
experienced meditation teacherand mentor conducting events of
more than 100 meditators bothonline and in person. He
currently teaches from VictoriaBC in Canada, just to define
that, because I'm in Victoria,Australia.
Neil McKinlay (00:41):
Yeah. Wow.
Arwen Bardsley (00:43):
So Neil, I'd like to just start with, you
know, a bit of background aboutyou, I love for people to
understand kind of how you getyou got to be doing what you're
doing now, what was what was thepath in however much detail you
want to give us, but it's justinteresting to find out how
people discover their path?
Neil McKinlay (01:04):
Well, I think there's two good ways to respond
to that. And before I do that,you know, thank you for having
me here. It's a real pleasure,real delight. I'm really looking
forward to this conversation.
And thank you to everyone who islistening. So how did I find my
path? I think there's two waysto respond to both of which are
(01:25):
interesting and informative. Oneis, how did I come to
meditation? And then, you know,another one would be how did I
get to a point, the point whereI'm doing what I'm actually
doing specifically right now,and that's a little bit more
involved a little bit moredetail. So let's go back to you
know, how did I start tomeditate. And I was a
(01:45):
competitive swimmer, when I wasa child and a young adult. And
at the risk of dating myself yetagain, that puts me in the late
70s, early 80s. And it was areally interesting time to be
involved with competitiveathletics. What we now, you
know, conventionally orcommonly, we'll call sports
(02:08):
psychology, was beginning toedge its way in to the
mainstream at that point intime, and the coaching staff
that I worked with, in that thatperiod was really open to that
kind of influence. And so we didall this stuff that you know,
now might seem really tame. Andyou know, every day, we did all
(02:30):
this weird stuff, we did goalsetting, and we did
visualization, and we didprogressive relaxation. And we
did subliminal messaging, whichmaybe is still a little bit odd
that one. And as part of thatsuite of tools that were
introduced, we were away at aswim meet. In Vancouver, one
(02:53):
weekend, and a bunch of us werestaying in a conference room in
a hotel with the assistant coachand the assistant coach on the
Saturday night, I vividlyremember it was a rainy, dark,
Saturday night in Vancouver,British Columbia. On Saturday
night, he taught us how tomeditate, you know, we rolled up
(03:13):
our sleeping bags, and wegathered all around. And he
taught us how to do a basic,Mantra based meditation
practice. And I don't rememberwhat he said, I don't remember
how everyone else reacted, but Ido remember, there was something
about it that was compelling tome, it was like, Oh, this is
something, you know, I wasn'table to define it. But it was
(03:39):
something and that something wasreally interesting. It was a
draw to me. And it kept me doingthe practice for a period of
years, you know, in a veryrudimentary, I don't really know
what I'm doing way it kept meengaging the practice. So that
is how I found my way in tomeditation was really through
the doorway that sportspsychology of the time opened
(04:04):
up.
Arwen Bardsley (04:07):
Great!
Neil McKinlay (04:10):
So that's, you know, how did I get into
meditation? And then how am Idoing what I'm doing now? Again,
that's a little bit moreinvolved. But after a few years
of of making my way throughmuddling my way through
meditation practice, more orless on my own, I started to
give what I was doing someformal structure. And I started
(04:33):
to study and practice in aseries of two successive
communities, both of which wererooted in Tibetan Buddhism, both
of which gave me opportunitiesto engage formal curriculum and
to do long retreats. And aroundabout 2016 My relationship with
the second of these communitiesreally started to unravel. I
(04:56):
started to feel uncomfortablewith the way the teacher, the
leader. was treating studentsespecially close senior students
like myself, it became apparentto me that in spite of what I
believed, in spite of what I wastold, in spite of what I as a
senior person in that communitytold others that what was
driving the situation was notthe teachings and not the
(05:19):
practices was not thedevelopment and the well being
of students. But it was the selfcentered impulses of the leader
himself. And the extent he waswilling to go to assert these,
to my I created an environmentcharacterized by manipulation by
disempowerment by disrespect. Byway of an example, he was a
(05:43):
master of what I call the baitand switch, saying, we're going
to do one thing, promising onething, and then switching it out
with something else andexpecting us all to silently go
along as if nothing hadhappened. Which, you know, in
isolation, I don't think soundslike much. But when the dynamic
repeats over a year, a period ofyears and plans and schedules
(06:05):
and lives are affected and upended, all by an authority
figure that one trusts whodoesn't seem overly concerned
with the consequences of hisactions. The effect is really
crazy making it what happened tome is it distorted my
relationship with my own innerknowing my own sense of
integrity, and of what's goingon here and now. And by 2019,
(06:30):
that distortion got so severethat I was just extremely
compromised, both mentally andphysically. And I had to leave.
And in 2000, early 2020,February of 2020, exactly, I
made this difficult, unnecessarychoice to leave, which to the
(06:53):
question you're raising thatopened up a path of recovering,
recovering and healing for me,and discovery and exploration
that continues to this day thathas actually opened up
meditation, my understanding ofmeditation in my presentation of
meditation in a whole new way.
Arwen Bardsley (07:11):
So were you so is that when you started
teaching, though,
Neil McKinlay (07:16):
I started teaching around about 2005.
After I was a swim coach, orafter I, my swimming career
ended, I popped out of the wateronto the pool deck, and I
started coaching and I coachedfor I think, about 20 years. And
that ended quite suddenly. And Iwas sitting at the kitchen table
one day with my head in myhands, literally my head in my
(07:39):
hands and saying, like, what amI going to do? What am I going
to do? And my wife walked by,she just walked by, I don't even
know if she stopped. I just canremember her walking by and she
said, Well, you're trained inmeditation, why don't you teach
people how to meditate? It waskind of like, oh, so around
about 2005 2006, I started toteach.
Arwen Bardsley (08:02):
Okay, so yeah, so of course, it's been a long
time. But so when you left thatcommunity, what, so it was that
kind of, you know, the realstructure for your life? And
then, you know, so you basicallydecided to leave and then
everything was different,
Neil McKinlay (08:23):
very much. So I mean, it was a structure for my
life, it was a structure for mylivelihood, because I was
teaching in that context. Andthat context was probably
responsible for about 60 or 70%of my annual income. It was a
structure socially, it was astructure spiritually,
financially. I mean, it was astructure that I had, on a
(08:49):
couple of, you know, kind ofturning point occasions made
conscious decision to step intoin a really deep way. And so,
when I made that choice, again,a difficult but necessary choice
to leave. There was this senseof leaving all of that behind?
Arwen Bardsley (09:06):
Yeah. And are you do you still practice
Buddhism?
Neil McKinlay (09:10):
I do. Yeah, very much. So you know, the work that
I do is still grounded in theBuddhist teachings. I try to use
very ordinary everyday language.
So I don't often talk aboutegolessness or emptiness or
anything like that. But thegrounding is certainly there in
that tradition.
Arwen Bardsley (09:32):
Yeah, good.
Yeah, I'm glad you didn't feellike you know, you had to even
give up your your faith as itwere.
Neil McKinlay (09:40):
Well, that was one of the difficult things
about the whole situation is Ithink, you know, to use your
words, giving up that faith ofwalking away from the teachings
and walking away from thepractice practices. It was
tempting and I know many of myyou know, former peers have
understandably done that becauseYou know that those were the
(10:02):
teachings and practices withinthat provided the the context
within which this dysfunctionalrelationship took took shape.
And for whatever reason, and itreally kind of goes back to
that, you know, night inVancouver sitting on a sleeping
bag and meditating for the firsttime, you know, I felt drawn to
(10:23):
the practice in a way I couldn'tand still can't articulate. And
it's the same thing here, youknow, once I left that
community, you know, while therewas a tremendous sense of
relief, that leaving, the losswas phenomenal. I had no idea
what to do. And much to mysurprise, because I can't
explain the why of it. I turnedto what was familiar, I turned
(10:47):
to meditation practice.
Arwen Bardsley (10:51):
Yeah. And so that would have been right at
the beginning of the pandemic,as well, he made that decision.
And then did that kind of openup that online teaching method?
Neil McKinlay (11:03):
Very much, very much. So, you know, when I left
the community, so we're talkingFebruary 2020, when I left,
that, that community, it was asurvival thing, you know, I
needed to get out for my ownsanity and survival. So I wasn't
really thinking aboutlivelihood, although obviously,
(11:26):
you know, there's a big, bigimpact there. When COVID hit,
you know, this neck of thewoods, and I think it was late
March that our lock downs, ourfirst series of lockdown
started. So when COVID hit thisneck of the woods in late March,
and the remaining 30, or 40%, ofmy livelihood, vanished. That's
(11:48):
when the Financial piece kind ofclicked. And, you know, I was
like, Well, what am I going todo? And I would already been
teaching online to a certainextent, and I broadened that and
started to offer, you know,community practice that's now
evolved into what is called theonline gatherings.
Arwen Bardsley (12:09):
So can you tell us a bit about that, because I'm
kind of fascinated by this ideaof, you know, more than 100
people online meditatingtogether, like I get that, you
know, I can see in my mind'seye, you know, and feel like
what it would feel like inperson, obviously, because I've
done probably not with more than100 people, but I've certainly
(12:30):
done that. But online, just tellus a bit about that.
Neil McKinlay (12:35):
Well, it's actually a really wonderful
format. And the onlinegatherings are currently smaller
than the 100 plus, which issomething that comes from my
past at this point. But there'sa group of we meet, there's the
option of meeting three times aweek, we meet on Tuesday,
Thursday, and Saturday, PacificTime. And probably at any one
(13:01):
gathering, you might see betweenfour and a dozen or 14 people
there. And what's it like toactually practice in that way,
it's become a really intimateand affecting context,
environment in within which wesit together. We used to joke
(13:23):
about it initially, but we getto actually sit with people in
their lives in some littlecorner of their lives. And we
actually become familiar withpeople in a way that we don't
become familiar when we're inperson, not that one's better or
worse than the other. But we getto see people's backgrounds, we
(13:46):
get to see people's homes, weget to see how those change and
evolve over time, whether it's,you know, there's a different
set of books behind me orwhether the location has shifted
a little bit. And you know, thisagain, this may sound like not
much, it may sound like a verykind of small thing. But it's
actually deeply affecting hadbeen deeply affecting over the
(14:08):
months and years that we've beencoming together because in a
couple of ways, one, thatfamiliarity, I feel like it
begins to ease its way intoourselves. And so there's a
cellular familiarity with oneanother in an ordinary everyday
here's a corner of my bedroom,kind of way. The other way that
(14:32):
I think it's really affecting isthe ordinary and everydayness of
it it really brings theteachings and the practices down
to that level. And in myexperience, that's where the
teachings and practices are mostpotent when we perforate any
notion that they might betranscendent or divine or
(14:56):
separate from the stuff of oureveryday life and begin and to
apply them to or see theirrelevance in, you know, going to
the grocery store or going tothe mall, getting up and going
to make dinner and all that kindof stuff. And so the ordinary
everydayness of the onlinecontext, and the fact that we
(15:20):
keep meeting, you know, weekafter week after week, it has a
familiarity, that's wonderful.
And it has a kind of groundingquality that I feel is, you
know, if, in my experience, ifwe're going to bring meditation
more fully into our lives, whichI think is really the intention
of the practice, it's notintended to be kept under a bell
(15:41):
jar. If we're going to bringmeditation more fully into our
lives, I think it's important toreally bridge the sometimes easy
to assume gap between those two.
And the online context, actuallyis a really potent tool in that.
Arwen Bardsley (16:02):
That is, yeah, really good point. I'm so glad I
asked you that question. So Ithink I better get from you,
Neil, what your definition ofmeditation is?
Neil McKinlay (16:14):
Yeah, so I guess I'm gonna answer that in two
ways. One is, you know, everyform of meditation that I know,
and I don't know, every form ofmeditation, we're just talking
about every form of meditationthat I know, shares, a central
dynamic, and the central dynamicinvolves taking our wandering
(16:35):
attention, or normally wanderingattention, and asking it to rest
somewhere. And, again, everyform of meditation that I'm
familiar with shares thatdynamic, take our wandering
attention, ask it to restsomewhere, where the practices
vary is where we're asked torest that attention. You know,
(16:57):
some practices we'll be asked torest our attention on a mantra,
some practices we'll be asked torest our attention on an image,
some practices we'll be asked torest our attention on a candle,
for instance, the style ofpractice that I teach, which is
embodied meditation, we rest ourattention, we turn toward and
settle into the immediacy of ourembodied life. So we turn our
(17:21):
attention toward our embodiedexperience, that would be a
general and specific definitionof meditation.
Arwen Bardsley (17:30):
And can you talk a bit more about this embodied
experience for people who, likeme, I'm not quite sure what you
mean, when you say that?
Neil McKinlay (17:38):
Yeah. So I used to just say we turn our
attention toward the body. Okay,and then that, you know, that's
great, okay. So what you'redoing is you're taking your
attention, and you're puttingyour attention somewhere in the
body, so your breathing or yourshoulder or your toe, something
like that. Okay, I understandthat. I used to say that. And
(17:59):
one of the things that becameapparent after time was that
that language was actually toolimiting. It really reinforced
the notion of body as a separateisolated entity, which it really
isn't, I mean, just on the levelof, of breathing, you know,
we're constantly taking breathin through the pores of our
(18:22):
entire body. And so I started toexperiment with different kinds
of language. And I came to orI've landed on using this term
embodied experience, which is anumbrella term. And roughly
speaking, that means we'returning our attention toward an
inclusive experience ofembodiment an experience that is
(18:46):
in is inclusive of our body, ourpersonal body, which most of us
associate with the termembodiment. It's also inclusive
of what you might call therelational body of the sense
perceptions, what the senseperceptions are, and what they
know, the light in the room, thetemperature in the room that the
(19:08):
garbage truck that keeps beepingoutside my window, as we're
talking here. And then it's alsoinclusive of the body of the
Earth, or the body of the worldof which we are a part, you
know, this sense of open,steady, still dynamic suchness.
(19:29):
And so, we're turning ourattention toward the fullness of
that and we may focus on say,the breath in the lower belly.
But there's always a sense ofokay, this is a focus with in a
more inclusive understanding ofembodiment. An understanding
that is inclusive of at leastthese three layers of body.
Arwen Bardsley (19:54):
Yep. Okay, beautiful. And talk to us about
you know like, it is a practiceyou have to you have to keep
doing it, basically, don't you?
Yeah. Can you just talk a bitabout that? And you know, people
the question that all, you know,people always ask is, Well, how
(20:15):
long should I do it for? And howoften should I do it? Which, you
know, the answer I realize ishow long is a piece of string?
But can you just give us yourthoughts around that?
Neil McKinlay (20:28):
Yeah, and you know, I'm pretty much of the
piece of string School ofthinking. And my grade three
teacher, Mrs. MacGibbon. Iremember, she was asking us to
write, I don't know, aparagraph, an essay was probably
a paragraph, it was grade three.
And I remember I went up, and Isaid, you know, how long does
this need to be? And she said,as long as a piece of string,
(20:49):
and I puzzled over that foryears, I mean, how long is a
piece of string? But I used tobe very, more prescriptive, you
know, and so I would say, Well,an hour a day, every day, for
the rest of your life, which wasthe instruction that I received,
however, many years ago, andthere was this interesting thing
(21:09):
that happened, you know, so thiswas an instruction I used to
offer in some of the firstclasses I offered in person here
in Victoria. And, you know, wewould, it would be an eight week
series, that would be eightclasses, and around about six,
or class six or seven, I'd startto talk about practicing at
home. And you know, everyone'smostly polite by that point, you
(21:30):
know, the people who are therethe people who really want to be
and are curious aboutcontinuing. And so everyone
listened to me and nodded. But Icould feel that as soon as I
said that everyone kind of gotup and left the room. Right? You
know, like, sorry. And so Iexperimented, like, what if I
say, 45 minutes? What if I say30 minutes? What if I say 20
(21:50):
minutes. And what I noticed is,while there was a sense of fewer
people, psychically getting upand leaving, there, were still
people getting up and leavingthe room energetically like,
okay, the expert has said thatmeditation must be this way. And
I can't do that, or I'm notinspired in that to do that. So
I guess it's not for me. Andafter a few years of going
(22:13):
through that, you know, I'm alittle bit slow on the uptake, I
guess. But after a few years ofgoing through that, I started to
really flip the equation. Andrather than having meditation,
or the tradition, or the expertdefine what an appropriate
practice is, I started toexplore and experiment with
(22:37):
well, what if our lives what ifour the realities and the
inspiration of our everydaylives determined how much we
practice, you know, embodiedmeditation is about trusting our
lives as they are? So what weactually trust into that, as we
craft a practice? And so I, whenI'm asked that question, I
(23:03):
really encourage people to lookat the realities of your life,
you know, sometimes, there'sjust not a lot of time
available. Sometimes there'smuch more. And then look at the
level of your inspiration, someof us are really drawn to
practice 30 40 50 minutes a day,others of us are not. And then
(23:23):
based upon the dance betweenthose two, come to an agreement
for yourself about whatmeditation practice is going to
look like for you in terms ofduration and frequency. So
rather than again, putting theexpert first, let's put our life
first and at that, and I reallythink this is this isn't it
(23:44):
sound is actually a really,really big point. Rather than
putting the expert first, let'sput our life first. And at that
point, the expert becomes asupport for what our lives are.
So rather than me say, wellArwen you should practice an
hour a day, every day for therest of your life, you come to
me and say, Well, I think I cando like 10 minutes a day, three
(24:07):
days a week. What might thatlook like? Then? You know, we
can talk and craft somethingthat works for you based on
that?
Arwen Bardsley (24:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Great. So if I said that, whatwould you say?
Neil McKinlay (24:23):
10 minutes a day, three days a week, I would say,
you know, so the practice that Iteach, has, can have a lying
down component and a sitting upcomponent. And when you're
looking at 10 minutes, that'sprobably about the minimum for
putting both of these twotogether for having the time if
you're going under 10 minutes,I'd encourage people to either
(24:45):
wholly lay down or just sit up.
So we'd begin to look at apractice where you're doing
about half lying down and halfsitting up, roughly speaking.
And, you know, I'd encourage youto take the time lying down to
just develop a sense ofpresence, a sense of hereness a
sense of I'm in this room. It'swarm, it's cold, there's noise,
(25:09):
I'm starting to settle. And oncethere was a sufficient sense or
notable sense of presence, I'dencourage you to come up into an
upright position, work withposture. And we could talk that
through a little bit. And thenbegin the practice of turning
your attention toward yourembodied life, this personal
body, this relational body, thisearth body, and starting to
(25:35):
settle in to that. That would bethe rough guideline.
Arwen Bardsley (25:45):
And so why do you do the lying down and
sitting up?
Neil McKinlay (25:50):
The lying down is really great for slowing down.
It's really easy in myexperience, to bring the speed
and momentum of our everydaylives into our meditation
practice, right? So like, Okay,I'm done work, I've picked up
the groceries, I put away thedishes, I'm going to sit down
and meditate. I'm sitting downto meditating present, I'm
(26:11):
putting my attention towards myembodied experience following
the breath in the belly, becauseI need that anchor today, here I
am meditating, okay, I'm done,I'm gonna go make dinner, then
I'm going to pick up the youknow, and so the lying down
because it is so relaxing. Andrestorative, is really conducive
to just slowing down. And beingquiet, and beginning to let this
(26:35):
sense of presence that's builtin to who we are bubble to the
surface. And that presence thenbecomes the context within which
we do the sitting up. And so youcould say, well, why even sit
up, like, why not just continuelaying down which, of course you
could do, you could continuelying down, the thing that's
(26:55):
advantageous about sitting up iswe're beginning to cultivate,
you know, the kind of turningtoward the kind of settling the
kind of relationship with ourown inner being, that meditation
offers us we're beginning tocultivate it in an upright way,
meaning it has that immediatesense of connection with our
(27:17):
everyday life. You know, it'skind of like a a way station
between lying down and gettingup and going to do the dishes.
And so that that sitting up isat the relaxation, or the lying
down is advantageous from thepoint of view of relaxation,
slowing down presence, thesitting up is really
(27:38):
advantageous because it helps usconnect the practice, the
qualities that we reconnectwith, through the practice, with
the stuff of our everyday life.
Arwen Bardsley (27:52):
Yeah, I really like that I've never, you know,
experienced, you know, doingboth in one session. So I think
that's really great explanation.
Thank you. And with sitting upwhat, what guidelines do you
give people about that?
Neil McKinlay (28:09):
I think that if I had to give one guideline, a
single guideline, I would, I'mprobably going to diverge from
my assertion that I'm going todo a single guideline here, but
I would say, ensure that you'resitting up in such a way that
your knees are lower than yourhip crease. What that does is it
(28:31):
lets your pelvis tilt forward.
And then lets the pelvic floor,touch the whatever you're
sitting on, whether you'resitting on a bench, whether
you're sitting on the floor,whether you're sitting on a
chair, it lets your pelvic floorground with the earth. And then
this becomes, you know, kind oflike that one of the keystones,
(28:53):
of our whole meditation practiceand the whole way of living that
we're developing here, thatsense of grounded connection
with the earth underneath. Andso that would be kind of the
main, the first thing I wouldsay, you know, if people came
into a room with me and said,Okay, tell me about sitting.
(29:15):
Let's talk about sitting in achair, sitting in a chair and
meditating. The first thing Iwould talk about, it's like,
okay, let's adjust the height ofthis chair. And you can do it
with blankets, you can do itwith yoga blocks, you can do it
if you have an up and down echair like I do right now you
can do it with that led to justthe height of the chair so that
(29:35):
your knees are lower than yourhip crease so that your pelvic
floor is or so that your pelvisis tilting naturally forward and
your pelvic floor is rootedbeginning to root in the earth.
Arwen Bardsley (29:49):
Yeah, so for most people sitting cross legged
on the floor, just straight onthe floor. That would not be the
case. Yeah, yeah. So but maybeif you lift your So your pelvis
up again, on a cushion or astool, then yeah.
Neil McKinlay (30:05):
And I mean, once again, let's we're coming back
to that notion of you werequietly coming back to this
here, but I want to reaffirm it,we're coming back to that notion
of placing our lives and ourrealities at the forefront and
asking the tradition and theexpert to kind of support us as
we do that. And, you know, thereality is some people are quite
(30:28):
comfortable sitting crosslegged, and other people are
not. And so, you know, you cansit cross legged on the floor,
you can sit cross legged on someprops, you can kneel on a bench,
you can sit in a chair. All ofthese are completely appropriate
ways to sit and meditate, andthe one that's best is the one
(30:51):
that's most appropriate to you.
Arwen Bardsley (30:53):
Yeah, and I always remember another
meditation teacher saying, youknow, you've really got to be
comfortable, because if you'renot comfortable, then you know,
your, your focus is going toconstantly be drawn to that
discomfort and not on this otherthing that that, you know,
you're trying to focus on asmeditation.
Neil McKinlay (31:15):
Yeah, I remember the very first time I did a long
retreat, there was a groupretreat. And I sort of glommed
on to one of the people who wassitting up front leading us, and
in my mind, somehow decided thatthat's the way a meditator
should sit. And so I spent thebulk of a month trying to
(31:38):
emulate them. And I spent thebulk of a month being completely
miserable, not meditating,because it just didn't work for
my body. And I was souncomfortable that the only
thing I was focusing on wasdiscomfort. And so yeah, I think
that's a really important point,you know, we need to be
(31:59):
reasonably be reasonablycomfortable, we need to be
sitting in a way that actuallyworks for the realities of our
embodied lives for the realitiesof our body.
Arwen Bardsley (32:11):
Yeah, and everybody's body is different.
So
Neil McKinlay (32:16):
everybody's body is different. I remember doing a
class. And again, it was one ofthese early classes, it was
eight weeks long, and there wassomeone in the class, they sat
right in front of me. And thefirst week, they just couldn't
stop moving. And week 2 3 4 5 6,that was the same thing. But
they started to bring props inaddition to what we had
(32:36):
available to try and mitigatethis. And in week seven, they
showed up and they had so manyprops, they had blankets, and
they had bolsters, and they hadwedges, and they had foamies,
and they had rolled up T bat,tea bags, tea towels. And I was
like what is going on here. Andagain, they're sitting right in
front of me. So I got a bird'seye view of this. And after
(32:58):
about 10 minutes of fussingaround with all this, for the
first time in like six or eightweeks. They were still Yeah, and
it was so beautiful and soaffecting. I mean, the stillness
was beautiful unto itself. Theother thing that was so striking
for me, was the certainty I hadthat no one in the universe had
(33:21):
ever quite sat in that way. Andit was just a real lesson for
me. It really taught me a lot.
Arwen Bardsley (33:29):
Yeah, absolutely. I'm doing yin yoga
teacher training at the moment.
And that is just such an eyeopener in terms of how
everybody's body is different.
There's so much skeletalvariation and sitting cross
legged for some people. Yeah, asyou said, it's fine. But for
many people, it is veryuncomfortable.
Neil McKinlay (33:49):
Yes, yes.
Arwen Bardsley (33:52):
So are there any other myths about meditation
that you'd like to bust?
Neil McKinlay (33:58):
I love myth busting with meditation. You
know, the first one is that weneed to have an empty mind. I
can't tell you the number oftimes, you know, people have
told me they've said somethingin class or some other context.
They've said, Well, you know,you said that meditation needs
(34:18):
to have an empty mind. And Ijust can't do that. So I guess
meditation is not for me. Andwhat is interesting is the the
depth and pervasiveness of thismyth, because I guarantee you
I've never actually said that,not once, because it is not
necessary that we have an emptymind. We work with whatever is
going on for us in this moment,and sometimes our mind will be
(34:39):
relatively empty. And sometimesour mind will be chattering away
like, you know, a chipmunk. Andone of these is more pleasant
than the other. I will grant youthat. But from the point of view
of meditation practice, one ofthese is not necessarily better
than the other. What we're doingis we're develop hoping our
(35:00):
capacity to turn our attentiontoward our embodied experience
to settle in and reconnect withsome basic qualities in our
human being. So it's not reallyabout the thoughts. It's about
loosening our grip on thethoughts, certainly, and then
letting our attention turnelsewhere. While the thoughts
(35:23):
are just allowed to do whateverthe thoughts are going to do,
you know, they'll chatter awayfor a while they'll dissipate,
they'll change, you know, that'sthe nature of that particular
creature. Yeah. So Myth numberone. Absolutely. Myth number
one, is it's not necessary tohave an empty mind. Myth number
(35:44):
two, is those thoughts thatromant remain, we don't have to
get rid of them. You know,again, what we're doing with the
practice of meditation is we'reloosening our grip on those
thoughts. And then letting ourattention turn elsewhere. And
that's an interestingdescription. And I think it's
easy to miss this in thedescription. But it implies that
(36:06):
the difficulties we get in towith thoughts is not really the
thoughts or the thinkingthemselves, it's our gripping.
It's our tendency to grip ontothem. And so we're loosening
that grip, and turning ourattention. And then just as I
said, letting thoughts do theirown thing, letting them have the
life that they want and need tohave, whilst we begin to attend
(36:30):
to the immediacy of our embodiedlives.
Arwen Bardsley (36:34):
Because we've got to honor the fact that our
brain is designed to think,
Neil McKinlay (36:39):
yeah, yeah. Yeah.
And I mean, that's a great agreat way of putting it, I often
put it, you know, if we're goingto get into an argument with our
thinking mind, we're going tolose, so let's just not do it.
Oh, another way of putting it asthe way you put it, let you
know, just honor the fact thatthat's what our mind does. And
it's like, well, thank you verymuch for doing that. I'm going
to turn my attention here forthe moment
Arwen Bardsley (37:03):
for as long as I can, until you come back
Neil McKinlay (37:04):
for as long as I can.
Arwen Bardsley (37:07):
I can Okay, any other myths?
Neil McKinlay (37:11):
I think we've touched upon, you know, some
others that I'm probably helpfulto make explicit one is that,
you know, meditation doesn'tneed to look a particular way.
How it's how it's going to beexperienced for each of us is
going to be different. Anothermyth that I think is worth
(37:37):
pointing out regardingmeditation is that meditation
actually doesn't relax us, whichoften shocks people because you
come to a class, and that's oneof the first thing people
encounter when we do our firstmeditation session together, you
know, it's like, Oh, I feel sorelaxed. So meditation doesn't
relax us. What meditation doesis meditation reconnects us with
(38:03):
a basic meaning inherent,innate, fundamental sense of
well being and ease that existswithin us. There is a sense of
well being and ease that existswithin us that is not
conditioned by, are we having agood day? Or are we having a bad
(38:23):
day do we wear glasses orcontacts is our hair long or
short? What meditation does isit turns out, helps us turn our
attention and settle in andbegin to connect with, among
other things, that sense of wellbeing and ease. And it seems
like maybe a small item tohighlight, but I think it's such
(38:44):
an important item to highlight.
Because, in one view, we'resomewhat disempowered. You know,
we kind of have to use thispractice called meditation to
create something that's notthere. Ease and relaxation. In
another view, it's veryempowering and affirming of who
we are as human beings. It'ssaying, okay, slow down, turn
(39:06):
your attention, settle in, andwho you fundamentally are, is a
sense of ease. Well, beingrelaxation, of course, we're
still going to have thosechattering thoughts and the
dishes are still going to bedirty, and we're going to stub
our toes and bang our knees andall the rest of it. Within that,
(39:28):
there is this sense of wellbeing and ease among other
things that, you know, we canaccess at any time. And I think
that's a really, reallyimportant point about
meditation. So an important mythto use your words bust is that
(39:48):
sense that meditation relaxesus. No. Meditation puts us in
touch with a fundamental senseof ease and well being and
relaxation.
Arwen Bardsley (40:01):
And so what other, I mean, that is a big
benefit. But are there otherbenefits that you feel that
people take into their everydayembodied lives from having a
meditation practice?
Neil McKinlay (40:18):
Yeah, I mean, I think we could talk about that
in a lot of different ways. Imean, there is a growing body of
scientific research that'stalking about, you know, the
effects on our blood pressure,the effects on our neurological
functioning, you know, theeffect on, you know, cardiac
health and well being. And Ithink these are all really,
(40:39):
really important, valuablebenefits. One of the ones that
has been coming up for me a lot,and it's been coming up within
online gatherings, this teachingonline teaching contexts that
we've talked about. It's beencoming up in my own life is
(41:03):
meditate, in addition toconnecting us with this
fundamental sense of ease, andwell being meditation actually
connects us with other qualitiesthat are innate in us as well.
And so let's go back to thebeginning of this interview,
when we talked about how Ibecame involved in meditation,
(41:24):
and then how I got to where I amright now. And I talked about
this difficult and dysfunctionalrelationship that I was part of
that I left. And, you know, whenI left, as we talked about, the
sense of relief was enormous.
And the sense of lostness wasphenomenal. I just literally
didn't know what to do, I didn'thave a clue. And for reasons I
(41:46):
do not comprehend, I turnedtowards the familiarity of
meditation practice. And so Istarted to settle into turn
toward and settle into what washappening for me that lostness,
I started to turn toward notchange, not get rid of not
transform, but turn toward it.
(42:07):
And as I settled into this moreand more, there was this
experience of knowing thatshowed up again, and again, that
often spoke directly to what washappening for me, in my life,
often posts spoke directly tothat sense of lostness. And this
suggested a phase of meditationthat I had never really
consciously recognized beforeone in which I let the wisdom or
(42:32):
the knowing or the intelligencethat arises out of this
settling, this basicintelligence is just waiting to
be connected with, I let thiswisdom that arises out of
settling into the stuff of mylife, begin to guide and direct
me through my life. And Istarted doing that it's the
silver lining of having no clueof what else to do is, I started
(42:56):
to actually trust that so if Iwas tired, I would rest. If I
was lonely, I'd reach out, if Iwas stuck, I would reach out to
my I would engage my traumatherapist and do a little bit of
work there. And what happenedthrough this process is I
started to heal this deeplydamaged relationship with my own
(43:21):
inner wisdom, and discover thatthe stuff of my immediate
embodied life, even when it's asdifficult as the calamitous end
of a 20 year relationship, thestuff of my immediate embodied
life, actually has something tosay about the direction and
(43:43):
purpose of my life. And that, tome, has proven over the last
couple of years, invaluable,utterly invaluable. And I think
it's something many of us, askourselves, you know, well, how
do I find my direction? And howdo I find my purpose? And I
(44:03):
think there's many, manyappropriate, helpful answers to
this. And one answer that Iwould offer is, that's something
that meditation actually can do.
For us. That's something thatmeditation actually offers us is
a tool through which we developa deeper relationship with the
stuff of our embodied lives, andwith the intelligence and the
(44:25):
wisdom and the knowing and theguidance and the direction that
is an innate within thatinherent within that waiting for
us to just connect and follow.
Arwen Bardsley (44:38):
We are so disconnected from it, though,
aren't we, in our modern lives?
Neil McKinlay (44:44):
very disconnected. You know, I think
it's the silver lining of youknow, what I went through, I
would never wish on anybody.
I'll be clear. I would neverwish on anybody it was and it
continues to be an extremelydifficult experience. However,
there's a silver lining to it.
When, with my life being soupended and so, disintegrated by
(45:11):
that experience, with myselffeeling so lost, it put me in a
place where I had little otherto do than trust it. Because the
so much of the known andfamiliar had just been swept
aside. And so the silver liningof this calamitous experience
(45:32):
is, you know, it helped meperforate I love that work. It
helped me perforate some of thevitual ways that I normally just
dismiss or diminish or distort.
So that, you know, there's beena gift in the difficulty and the
calamity as well.
Arwen Bardsley (45:52):
Yeah, beautiful.
Neil McKinlay (45:53):
Can I go back, Arwen? Sorry to interrupt you,
can I go back? Okay, myth numberfive. I think we're myth number
five, I think this is somethingI really like to get in here is
I no longer believe thatmeditation is the solitary
(46:13):
activity that I once thought itwas. And I said that one of the
ways I kind of worked my waythrough, I am working my way
through the difficulties thatI've been that I've endured is
the practice of meditation. Theother piece that's absolutely
(46:35):
essential in this is community.
A lot of the meditation thatI've done the last two, two and
a half years has been incommunity, it's been with others
with the end of that difficultrelationship, and with the
arrival of COVID, as we'vetalked about, all my livelihood
vanished. So I started doingthings online, which become the
online gathering community now.
(46:56):
And in doing so, I got actuallyto see the brilliant, the
articulate the vulnerable andadaptive ways that others were
engaging meditation, certainly,but also meeting the challenges
and the difficulties of theirlives. What this did for me is
again, and again, it reminded meor it affirmed for me the
(47:19):
existence of this basic wisdom,this basic knowing this basic
intelligence. Some days, I couldnot see it, in my own experience
in my own life, I could notbelieve it in my own experience
and my own life. And then I'dsit down in the online
gatherings, and I would see itmanifest in living color in
(47:39):
front of me. And it thataffirmation was, was and
continues to be utterlyessential. It reminds me again,
and again and again, is yes,there's something basic in us,
that is brilliant, and radiant,and clear, and tender and
(48:01):
responsive. There's something inus that is fundamentally
intelligent, fundamentally,knowing, and there's something
in us that can actually help usfind our way forward in our
lives in a way that's alignedwith the reality of this
embodied life. And I couldn't, Icould put post it notes all over
(48:24):
our home. And I wouldn't be ableto remember it in the same way
that I do in a one hour gapmeeting of the online
gatherings. I leave thosemeetings. And I'm like, oh,
yeah, basic nature, which is,you know, one of the ways that
tradition talks about what we'retalking about here, oh, yeah,
basic nature. It's real. It'sthere, I can connect with it.
This is one of the points ofmeditation practice, I can let
(48:47):
it begin to flow, or guide meinto the stuff of my everyday
lives.
Arwen Bardsley (48:53):
And so do you kind of recommend that people do
some meditation in communityrather than just on their own?
Neil McKinlay (49:00):
That's an interesting question. I actually
never have, although I wouldthink at this point, I would say
if people have the opportunity,and one of the great things
about the growing, familiaritywith online technology is more
of us have more and more of thatopportunity. You know, if people
have that opportunity, Idefinitely recommend people take
(49:22):
advantage of it. Because it'sbeen transformative for me and I
see it as being transformativewith those that I work with.
Arwen Bardsley (49:32):
So tell us about your I mean, I know you've
you've told us how it kind ofoperates. But you know if people
want to join you in your onlinecommunity, or I think you've got
more than one Don't you whatwhat what can they do?
Neil McKinlay (49:45):
Well, the the great clearing house for you
know what I'm doing isdefinitely my website. And that
is Neil mckinlay.com and I am arare McKinlay that hasn't L-a-y
at the end of my name, not anL-E-Y? And, you know, take a
(50:06):
look at the website, you know,because what I offer on the
whole is somewhat broad. There'sa lot of different offerings
there that you can take a lookat and familiarize with, there's
a newsletter, which is a reallygreat way to familiarize over
time with what's being offered.
So if you're so inclined, youknow, sign up for the
newsletter. It's got upcomingevents and teachings and special
(50:29):
offers. And it always reminds uswhen it shows up every month,
oh, yes, meditation practice.
Well, it's true. I mean, I ran,I can't tell you the number of
times I've run into people onthe street here in Victoria.
And, you know, they say, oh, youknow, you just put out a
newsletter I really enjoyed. I'mreally glad I got that. And I
(50:51):
said, Oh, well, did you read theblog? Did you like the clip that
I included? They said, Well, no,I actually never even opened it.
And I said, Well, what do youlike, why do you appreciate it?
And they would say, Well, everymonth it shows up, and it
reminds me, oh, yeah,meditation. And I used to be a
bit chuffed at this, like, comeon newsletters are a lot of
work, and there's a lot inthere. Yeah. And then I realized
(51:14):
back to this notion of let's putthe expert second and our lives
first, if that's what people aregetting out of it. That's
awesome. That once a month,there's that sense of Oh,
meditation, I'm going to givethis a shot. And so that would
be you know, my initialsuggestion is just go to the
(51:37):
website, take a look around.
Take a look at my website, or mymy newsletter, if you're so
inclined. Not to pile it on. Butif someone's really feeling
like, Wow, I love the sound ofthis online gatherings. Send me
an email, let me know thatyou've listened to this podcast.
And I can send you a one weekfree trial to the online
(51:57):
gathering so people can go andgive it a trial that way, but
the starting point is definitelythe the website,
Neilmckinlay.com.
Arwen Bardsley (52:10):
And so if people want to send you an email, they
can do that through the website.
Neil McKinlay (52:15):
Yes. There's a contact there too.
Arwen Bardsley (52:17):
Yeah. Okay. All right. So yeah, do you cuz I
realized at the start, I saidNeil McKinlay, but do you just
pronounced at McKinley?
Neil McKinlay (52:26):
I pronounced it McKinley and I smiled with
tremendous pleasure when yousaid McKinlay.
Arwen Bardsley (52:34):
I normally check with people before I start
recording about pronunciation,but I just thought I just had
it. Okay, so yeah, so that'sgreat. Because I was gonna say,
is there any particular youknow, programs or anything you
want to tell people about, butit sounds like it's all on your
website. And if they sign up forthe newsletter, in particular,
(52:54):
then they'll get some some hottips on special offers and what
you're doing so you run theseregular things, and then you'll
do sort of one off workshoppykind of things as well, and that
sort of stuff. Is that right?
Neil McKinlay (53:07):
Yeah, I do do some in person stuff here in
Victoria, British Columbia. Butmost of my work is now online,
the main pieces, the onlinegatherings, of course, but I
also do semi regular, you know,monthly mini retreats, where on
a Sunday morning here in thePacific Northwest, we do a you
(53:30):
know, three hours of practicetogether. And there's there are
other events that do come upless regularly, but they do
recur. So there's a lot goingon.
Arwen Bardsley (53:40):
Yeah. All right.
Great. Well, I have reallyenjoyed our chat, Neil, it's
been great and absolutely loveall your insights into
meditation. And I hope that ithelps some people to feel you
know, some freedom in the factthat they that they can do this
because I absolutely believethat it's something that it's a
practice that everybody shouldin some way, shape or form have
(54:05):
their life and you've made ityou know, really nice that
people can understand they don'thave to be doing an hour a day,
every day by any means. So yeah,that's really great. I'm really
grateful for your for your timetoday.
Neil McKinlay (54:21):
Yeah, well, it's been a pleasure. It's been a
pleasure. And thank you toeveryone who's listening for the
opportunity as well.
Arwen Bardsley (54:28):
Thanks, Neil.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.