June 21, 2022 • 64 mins
Wendy Nash has a 4-year somatic psychotherapy diploma, her Bachelor of Psychology Honors thesis studied the effects of loving-kindness meditation on prosocial behavior and she’s been practicing loving-kindness and other meditations for almost 20 years.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Arwen Bardsley (00:00):
All right, welcome, everybody really
delighted today to have WendyNash on as my guest. Wendy has a
four year somatic psychotherapydiploma. And she has also a
bachelor of psychology and herhonours thesis was where she
(00:21):
studied the effects of lovingkindness meditation on pro
social behavior. Wendy has beenpracticing loving kindness and
other meditations for almost 20years, all of these things that
she has done have beenprofoundly positive on Wendy's
wellbeing, and relationships,and turned around the negatives
(00:44):
of difficult early lifeexperiences. So I'm so pleased
to have Wendy here with us todayto share her experiences that
really become that life wisdomthat it's so good for all of us
to share with each other. SoWendy, I would love if we can
just start with the you know,about you what, how did you get
(01:08):
to be where you are now, as ameditation coach? What were the
steps along the way, whateveryou want to share? And, you
know, I think it's reallyimportant for people to
understand the journey thatsomeone else has been on.
Wendy Nash (01:22):
Thanks, Arwen, thank you for the warm welcome. And
it's always interesting to hearsome of the introduction, just,
you know, to hear it in somebodyelse's voice is is kind of very,
very nice. And it makes me soundkind of more important perhaps
than I am! Before I go on, I dowant to just say that, I think
(01:49):
it's really important torecognize the country I'm
calling from. So because if wedon't know where we've come
from, we don't know where weare. And we don't know where
we're going. So I'm calling fromGabby Gabby country in
Queensland. And I just reallywant to honor the good work and
(02:11):
care and thoughtfulness that theindigenous people have had on
this land for 70,000 years,which unfortunately, we seem to
have managed to trash in about250 years. But I really want to
honor that, that knowledge andway of being in the world. So
(02:32):
that's where I like to start.
Arwen Bardsley (02:33):
Thank you so much. And I would like to
reiterate that for theWurundjeri people where I am on
as well. Thank you for doingthat. Wendy.
Wendy Nash (02:40):
It's my pleasure.
And you asked about where Iwhere I started. Basically, I
did have a difficult early life,but I still managed to live in a
few different countries. And Igot married. And then I thought
I had it all together. I thoughtI had all the answers. And then
my ex husband left, he justcouldn't he couldn't stay in the
(03:04):
marriage, which was the rightdecision. But nonetheless, I was
completely thrown for six. And Iwas seeing a psychotherapist,
and she was very, very advancedZen practitioner, and very
experienced Zen practitioner,and she just said you need to
(03:24):
chill. I was absolutely wound uplike a clock. Very Prickly, very
crisp, probably had anger, man.
I mean, I know I had angermanagement issues. It was very
difficult. I was very bitter andhurt because of a lot of very
(03:45):
difficult things to come toterms with both my sister and my
father died when I was a childand I had dropped out of school
and I changed schools a lot. Andit was just very chaotic and
difficult growing up in thatenvironment to gain a sense of
sanity and normality. So I tookI started. And when I started, I
(04:08):
actually didn't even know whatit meant to feel loved. So
that's actually where I, I hadno sense of what it meant to
feel loved in a family. And thatdoesn't mean to say that my
family didn't love me. It's justthat there was this gap between
how I felt and what washappening around me. And it was
(04:28):
very hard for me to say that Iwas loved even though I was
loved and and I couldn'texperience that. So I was really
angry. And I just needed to dosomething about that. And I
found the loving kindnesspractices really good. There's a
sort of standard practice thatpeople have where you start
(04:52):
reciting some phrases and foryourself, for your good friend,
for a neutral person, a thedifficult person, and then
everybody. And I couldn't evenbegin to understand that I just
didn't even feel love anywhere.
So I had to really think aboutwhat does love mean? And what
(05:13):
does it mean to? To wish someoneWell? Yeah, I, I found that very
confusing and difficult for along time. But I kept going. So
the first thing I did was, Itrained myself to not be angry.
So whenever I wanted to speakout and be angry, I just didn't
(05:36):
like sitting on your hands, ifyou're going to talk, you know,
if I was gonna say somethingsharp, I just didn't. And I was
seeing a counsellor as well. Sothat that worked well. And then
I came across a book about 201415, called awakening through
(05:56):
love by John Makranksy. And hehad this exercise, where I had
to go back into my childhood,and look for any instances where
somebody had been kind to me. Soit might have been a
relationship, which generallywas not good. So maybe one of my
siblings, but nonetheless, therewas something that one of my
(06:20):
brothers, and I just went, Oh,actually, we used to bicycle
ride together. And that wasreally fun, you know. And so I
sort of slowly increased mycapacity to feel love, which was
just so transformative, becauseI was very, very bitter and
(06:41):
hurt. So I stepped through allthese things and stopped being
angry, started looking for morekindness in the world. So things
like there's a practice, I thinkPema Chodron who's a very well
known Tibetan, Buddhist teacher,she's North American. She's, her
(07:01):
father is actually fromMelbourne. So, but she's raised
in the US. And she called itcheerfulness practice, but I
think it probably has anothername. And basically, you just go
through your day, and you lookfor any acts of kindness, or
(07:22):
pleasantness in your day, soslightly different from the
gratefulness practice for youknow, I'm so grateful for this,
I personally find that quitedifficult, because
there's something that I feellike I'm doing more, and I don't
(07:42):
want to do any more, I just wantto acknowledge what is there. So
I, I found this practice, and Ijust go back to the previous
day, so this time yesterday, andI think, Well, what was what was
happening this time yesterday.
And I was actually doing anotherinterview. And I had a really
(08:04):
lovely host, and he was reallylike you warm, and welcoming,
and asking very thoughtfulquestions. And, you know, he, he
was really keen to engage withme in a way that was really
appreciative actually, of what Icould share. So I just started
(08:26):
there. And then I had somereally yummy yoghurt, which my
partner had actually bought theday before, on his way home. And
to make sure that I hadsomething yummy to eat during
the day, or he had somethinglike he went out of his way to
(08:47):
the supermarket to bring me somefood. And so just to acknowledge
that other people are doingthings for me, and two, I call
it receive it receivegracefully, you know, to not
just our you know, a partner,he's just went grocery shopping,
and you know, who cares, butreally go wow, he actually paid
(09:08):
attention, did that and hewanted to make me happy. So that
if you've just stepped throughyour day going like that
actually makes the day so muchmore pleasant and enjoyable, but
it might be I'm after this, I'mgoing to go for a walk. And I
(09:29):
just I've got to go to the postoffice. But it's it's quite
sunny and warm here. So just tofeel the sun on my back into
that sense that lovely warmth.
So just looking for those sortsof things. So I found all these
small practices really usefulfor making me feel less
(09:53):
depleted. Less resentful, lessangry, and So 20 years ago, I
was very, very angry. And duringthe pandemic, when it broke, I
was actually in Amsterdam on ameditation retreat. And it was
March. And we were in silence.
So I had no idea what hadhappened about the pandemic. And
(10:16):
we were suddenly told, you'vegot to go home. And I looked
around at the the other peoplein the room, and I went, I am
not the angriest person here.
That's not me. And I was talkingwith a friend who I'd only known
(10:37):
for a couple of years. And he'san experienced psychotherapist
of 30 years. So he's used tosort of sussing people very,
very quickly. And I said, Well,I'm not the angriest person in
the room. And he turned to meand he said, you angry? I
thought, done it. I've done it.
So that's where I started from.
(11:00):
That's where I am. And that'sbeen it, I was able to change.
But it didn't change with thatapplication. Like I did have to
make that effort to think inthis moment. What am I going to
do? Am I going to lash out? Inwhich case I'm just kind of
(11:20):
keeping those neurons in thatspace? Or am I going to hold
back? So that's, that's how Idid.
Arwen Bardsley (11:28):
Ok ay,so there's a couple of things that come out
from that, for me is firstly,with the anger, you know, where
does it go? Like, you know, likethat, that beautiful analogy of
sitting on your hands, you know,I just worry about people not
using the energy of their angerin so you know, getting rid of
(11:52):
it, I guess, is the thing. Howdo you what would you say about
that?
Wendy Nash (11:59):
You know, the thing about it? Is that it it rises
up. And I don't, I guess squishit down. I let it I kind of I
what I often do in my meditationpractice, if I find that, you
know, it sittings I've generallymostly I sit for an hour every
day, I don't think this is byany stretch of beginner's
(12:21):
meditation practice to, to sitfor an hour every day. But I sit
for an hour. And then often I'llbe thinking about someone. And
you know, I had an interactionwith somebody the other day, and
I thought oh I'm a bithumiliated by that, you know,
and I was a bit hurt and a bitangry. And so what I'll do in
that instance, is just say tomyself, I feel angry. Yes, it's
(12:46):
true. I feel angry. And simplyallowing, acknowledging it's
true. Then it goes through mybody. I haven't suppressed it. I
haven't ignored it. And nor haveI lashed out. And so it, it just
(13:13):
it means that I don't harmothers. And it also means that
don't harm myself. I just allowthe truth of it to come forward.
Arwen Bardsley (13:22):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because I just really
worry about people suppressinganger, and that becoming, you
know, physical or mentalillness. So that's wonderful.
Thank you so much for explainingthat. And the other thing for me
was, you talked when you weretalking about the practice of
(13:43):
recognizing kindness in thosesmall ways going back through
the last 24 hours, but then yousaid something about it you
didn't feel like that was agratitude practice. It kind of
sounded like a gratitudepractice for me can you
differentiate the two
Wendy Nash (13:59):
I guess you know, there is quite it's quite
popular the the gratitudepractice but I feel like you
know, I'm I'm so grateful that Ihave food and others don't you
this there can be something abit forced or so I'm, you know,
(14:22):
I'm having a really tough timeat work. Say, you know, people
have really demanding jobs,demanding family situations. I'm
so grateful that I'm in a lovingfamily. I'm so grateful. My help
my children are healthy. It canjust feel a bit forced. I think
sometimes that that's why Idon't like that. But if you just
(14:45):
go, Yeah, my my child came to meand did so in the interview
yesterday. I did. There was theguy who had seen his son came to
him and introduced he's likehe's 15, Dad I've got I've got
this girl and really sweet onand she plays basketball and the
(15:07):
father and the son both playbasketball. So they went down
there. And he was just going,you know, now go to her and say
she, she, she did that. And thesons going 'oh I can't I'm
really shy, I feel really shy'.
And there's something reallybeautiful about, you know, just
recognizing that therelationship is so good between
(15:30):
the father and son, that thismost vulnerable experience of a
teenage boy being sweet on agirl and feeling so gawky and
awkward about that. And his theboy's willingness to share that
with his father. Now, there'snothing to be grateful in there.
It's just recognizing thatthere's beauty is an act of
(15:53):
generosity on behalf of the sonto show that
Arwen Bardsley (16:01):
it sure is on the part of the teenager. That's
an amazing outcome. Yeah, yeah.
Okay, well, thank you. Thank youfor clarifying that. That's
wonderful. So I know that you doa lot of work with leaders with
CEOs and especially withfounders of startups. And, as we
talked about, before, we startedrecording that certainly not my
(16:23):
target audience for this podcastand video series. But if you're
out there, and you're takingthis content in, thank you, I
appreciate you being here,whoever you are, and whatever
your job is. But, you know, I dofeel that whatever we're doing
with our lives, firstly, we'veall worked in an organization
with a leader or leaders, and wecan, you know, have some
(16:47):
understanding of what that thoserelationships mean, and how it's
so important how that leaderbehaves to the organization and
to you as an employee, or, oreven, you know, in a more
collegial relationship, anyonewho's who's leading, it's so
important. And we also know,obviously, that people leave
(17:12):
organizations because they'releaving a culture they're not,
you know, they're, they're kindof, they're not leaving the job.
They're, they're leaving theculture, and really, the people
and that stems from the leaders.
So and also, my other thing is,well, we're all leaders to some
extent in our own lives, even ifit's just in your household,
(17:34):
you're the leader. So just thatwhole concept of leadership and
your expertise in that. I readyour statement. It's the unknown
psychological stuff, the leaderavoids learning about themselves
that gets played out in theoffice, or we can swap office
for whatever situation it is.
I'd just love to hear some moreof you more from you about that.
Wendy Nash (18:01):
Okay, that's a really interesting, thank you
for raising that. When you'vebeen in an organization, so
you've worked in otherorganizations, and it feels
toxic? Well, I'll say that whenI've worked in organizations, my
observation is, you know, oftenthe leader wants to be this
(18:21):
great leader. But they're sobusy focusing on themselves.
They're actually not leading,they're actually they're not
paying attention to thefollowers, so to speak, you
can't lead without being afollower. But in any of your
relationships, if you thinkabout it.
(18:46):
Have you had, I guess, thesituation where I've thought I
was providing good information,I was clear, I have an identity
that I'm a good communicator,because I talk a lot. But it
(19:07):
turns out, I'm not very good atlistening. I'm just using this
as an example because I knowsomebody who, who says, Well,
I'm a good communicator, becauseactually, she just likes to talk
a lot. She's very opinionated.
And she's actually a terriblecommunicator. And it has real
negative consequences on her herbehavior, on on the people
(19:30):
around her. So for instance,actually, that's a very common
one where people feel that theyhave a particular identity of
maybe being generous. And thereis a saying, which says that
(19:56):
people are the opposite. of whothey say they are. And so my
sense of say, say you have anunder the I don't, I don't know
if this is true, have anidentity about being generous.
And, and what it is doing isit's noticing, when you do that,
when you are generous, but it'snot noticing all the times when
(20:21):
you're stingy. So, likewise, I'ma good communicator, is saying,
well, these are all the timesthat I'm talking and I'm giving
information. But it's nottalking about the times when
that particular person is speaksvery harshly, and has terrible
(20:44):
relationships. Actually, they'reall you know, the one common
denominator in all yourrelationships is you. And so,
you know, that's, that's how itis. So I'm not sure I'm being
very clear here. But basically,I, so for me, I have an identity
that I'm a very angry person.
(21:08):
And then people say, I, you'reso warm and friendly and open.
But because 20 years ago, I wasa really angry person, I still
see myself quite a lot likethat. And so I'm always
thinking, I was a bit angrythere, I shouldn't be like that.
And so I still think of myselfas being very angry, even though
(21:31):
a lot of most people don't seeme in that way. So what I would
say is, whatever you identifyyourself, as you might identify
as a good person, therefore youdon't see where you're a bad
person. If you identify yourselfas a bad person, you don't see
(21:51):
where you are a good person,because the identity is very
stuck there. So what I would sayis, before you had a career in
something, you kind of had acorporate life, I think,
Arwen Bardsley (22:04):
yes, I did. Yep.
Wendy Nash (22:06):
Yeah. And so you saw yourself in a particular light.
And then something happened. Andyou started to realize,
actually, I'm not who I thoughtI was. And so when you're in
that corporate life, did youstart to see that people weren't
(22:31):
reacting in the way that you hadhoped? Because you saw yourself
as having a particular trait orquality? And they weren't seeing
that or or they were seeingsomething very, very different.
Arwen Bardsley (22:46):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And even more, I
mean, I would say, for me, itwas more, you know, my kind of
midlife crisis was more aroundpersonal life stuff and seeing
myself as a, a wife and ahomemaker. And, uh, you know, as
well as, obviously, I had a job.
But you know, and that I wasreally good at all of that, but
(23:12):
that then my marriage brokedown. So clearly, there were
things that I was not good at,that I wasn't recognizing. And
so I think you're saying, soeven just on the most basic
level, a good, someone whothinks they're a good leader, is
not paying attention to all theways in which they're not a good
(23:34):
leader.
Wendy Nash (23:37):
That's right. Yeah.
And that that's the same in thefamily. Yeah, I'm a good wife.
I'm a good mother. Why do mychildren hate me? I'm good. I'm
a good mother. You know, and youmay have teenage boys, in which
case, I think that's normal. Ihave an acquaintance and she's
going, my son is saying thesehorrible, horrible things. To
(23:58):
me. It's so unbearable, andshe's a meditator. She said
she's used to this and she, youknow, it's just hard. At certain
phases. There's no two waysabout that. Yeah, but she also
has to recognize maybe she's notso good at sometimes at saying
she's a bit harsh or she isperhaps not as thoughtful as she
(24:20):
could be.
Arwen Bardsley (24:23):
Yeah. Yeah.
Thank you for that. Sorelationships, we've already
spoken a bit about them becausethey are key to everything. And
I mean, I think you know, prettycommon knowledge is that the key
to making your relationships aplace where you can grow and
(24:45):
develop and thrive iscommunication. And I know that
you've got a lot of skill incommunicate the area of
communication and teachingpeople about communicating well
as as well. Can you I just wouldlove because you have that, that
(25:06):
skill I would love to just get.
And I know it's a big topic, butI'd love to get your you know,
kind of a basic 101. Any anytips you can you share with
people about communication thatmight help them in their day to
day lives?
Wendy Nash (25:24):
Sure, I think it's not nearly as complicated as we
think. That's what I would say,like, we have an idea, I'm not a
good communicator, or we have anidea. I'm a good communicator.
And both of those are incorrect,because sometimes we're good at
it and sometimes we're not. WhatI would say is that
(25:45):
communication is more aboutlistening than it is about
speaking. But we need to, weneed to, it's actually a lot
about question syntax. So if youwant to get an answer that is
(26:07):
useful, meaningful, thoughtful,you've got to structure your
sentences with the correctsentence. So say, for instance,
you, someone comes to you andsays, I'm having a really bad
(26:31):
day, instead of going into themode of, well, you know, have
you slept properly? Have youeaten properly? Or what happened
or something like that? Maybewhat happened, but that has a
slightly hard edge to it. Butmaybe something like? So tell me
more about what happened today.
That opener, tell me more aboutreally starts to open it out.
(26:56):
It's a very loose generalquestion. And it's a very good
question, to begin aconversation. And the way you
start a conversation is the wayyou end the conversation. So if
you start with Well, what didyou do today? Then, if you had,
you know, like, why didn't youfix it? Whatever. A harsh
(27:18):
startup. This is. John Gottman,the Gottman Institute, this is
their thing. You start harshlyyou end harshly someone slams
the door. But if you start with,so tell me more about what's
going on for you or whathappened in the day, that really
gives a lot more possibility forcuriosity. And then, I would say
(27:41):
that always ask a question,which begins with what? Or how?
What were the specificinteractions that you had that
made you feel x y Zed? What wasit like to be in that situation?
(28:10):
Just to start with what? Or how,how did that unfold? What's your
sense of it? If if you if byasking would you say that's
coming back to me? Would you saythat's because you weren't very
good at communicating? Then thatsays it's very loaded? And it's
(28:31):
actually Well, I'll tell you allabout communication. So do you
think is also a very, it's alsoa closed question, and it's
loaded. And another one is to beis to not do is to ask is or
are. So don't start it questionwith is or are. Is that because
(28:52):
you did x y Zed? Are you sayingthis happened? So it's good to
just keep it really, really openand then finally you know, we've
done a lot about paraphrasingand emotions and things like
(29:15):
that. But and and activelistening where you go into a
feeling - oh it sounds like youfeel angry about this and but I
find in a workplace that's notappropriate. And and I don't
always think it's veryappropriate. I can I think it
(29:36):
can feel a bit intrusive,particularly if you have kids,
too. It's not everybody wantsto. It's not always the right
time. But what I found is thisquestion and it's a book. I got
it out of a book by LaurenceAlison and Emily Alison called
(29:56):
Rapport. They do criminalinterviews, and social services
interviews. And what they useis, it sounds like you care
about. So in your interview sofar, what I've heard is that it
sounds like you really careabout providing useful hints and
(30:19):
tips for your listeners, youwant the audience to feel that
they're included and accepted.
And that even if you have it,you have something that is
relevant to the workplace, thatyou take it into your home life
and vice versa. So I can, I canhear that there's a lot of
(30:40):
thoughtfulness and experienceand openness in your interviews.
But so just starting with what Ihear you care about. And then
the person just feels reallydeeply heard. Very interesting.
I thought that was I thoughtthat that one sentence was one
(31:04):
of the I think, one of the mostuseful, I guess it is a question
because it says, What are youcare about is this, and then the
silent? Is that true? is sittingthere and a person has the
capacity to come up. But really,it's as simple as that. It's not
complicated, but it takespractice, because I was working
(31:29):
with a client last week, andhe's an elderly gentleman, he's
in his 70s. And his tendency is,do you think and would you say
and did this and what about thatand have that, and it was very
kind of perfunctory, and Ididn't enjoy the conversation.
And we had, I was very difficultto retrain him, he was a
(31:52):
journalist as a young man. Andwe get stuck in our
conversational habits. So justdoing that is really opens it
out. And it just takes a lot ofthe tension out of a lot of the
accusation. And the otherquestion is to never ask is why
why did you do that? It's, it'squite harsh. So it's not I think
(32:13):
it's not more complicated thanthat.
Arwen Bardsley (32:18):
So as an example, then, so let's do the
quintessential parent talking tothe kid after school. And the
question is always how wasschool? And then of course, you
always get the good, or you justget a grant or whatever. So you
might say, Tell me about yourday at school? Or something like
(32:39):
that. Correct?
Wendy Nash (32:40):
I heard Yeah. I did hear somebody say choose one
particular subject. Right. Letme tell me what happened in
maths today. Yeah, yeah.
Arwen Bardsley (32:51):
And then, so then if the kid goes, Okay, or,
you know, oh, I didn't go tomath today. And then of course,
you would say why. So what wouldyou say instead?
Wendy Nash (33:08):
Oh, what was happening for you? That didn't,
yeah, what was happening foryou? Yeah.
Arwen Bardsley (33:16):
Okay, so can you just reiterate those steps
again? So what do we what do westart our sentences with?
Wendy Nash (33:22):
So I think first question is, so you've said, We
can do a bit of a role playhere, you know, where you can
just ask me about school today.
So yeah, tell me what happenedat school today. You know, in
maths, so tell me more. Yep.
(33:44):
That's really useful ifsomeone's got a problem. I don't
know how to do my scienceproject dadada. You know, it's
all it's all due tomorrow. And Idon't know anything. I haven't
read the books on either or Sotell me more about what you need
to produce for the, theassignment. Tell me more. And
such an opener, it's such aninviter. A question that starts
(34:07):
with what a question and startswith her. What exactly do you
need to do? How are you going toget that information? Yep. And
what I hear you care about isthat you might fail you. You
(34:28):
want to do a good assignment.
Arwen Bardsley (34:35):
Yep.And not why haven't you done it before? Now?
Wendy Nash (34:38):
What help is that?
Yeah. How is that going to be apositive? The past has gone
handy with that. Yeah.
Arwen Bardsley (34:56):
Great.
Wendy Nash (34:58):
I just want to say I don't have children
Arwen Bardsley (35:02):
I mean, but you know, also, as we keep saying,
you know, you can apply that inany, in any area of life. It's
just, that's always one that,you know, whenever I'm getting
together with friends who arealso parents of teenagers, it's
always that, you know, well,they don't tell me anything. And
we'll probably a lot of thereason is that you're not asking
those open ended questions.
Wendy Nash (35:24):
Actually, that book Rapport by Laurence and Emily
Alison, she, she gives a lot ofexamples of how to talk to your
teenager, because she does a lotof social work. And she's done a
lot with relationships that arevery strained between a teenager
and a parent. And she just says,This is how you do it. And she
says, this is the kind ofcharacter you're looking, you're
(35:46):
actually speaking to, this iswho you are, these are the
strength of the styles ofcommunication. And this is who
you're talking to. And these arethe strengths and weaknesses of
this type of character. And shegets you to mix, mix and match.
So you can target you can bereally clear about who, who
you're speaking to, so that itwill satisfy their need.
Arwen Bardsley (36:09):
Yeah, great.
Thank you so much, that was sovaluable. Now, I did say I
wanted to focus this interviewon meditation. So I'd like to
circle back around to that. Iknow you did start with talking
about your first experienceswith the loving kindness
meditation. But I'd love andobviously, you spoke about the
(36:32):
fact that it helped you tomanage your anger, let go of
your anger. What are thebenefits have you had? Or what
other? You know? What are thereasons why people should start
a meditation practice, I guess,is really what I'm wanting to
get at?
Wendy Nash (36:54):
Yeah, I think it's really beneficial for most
people. I'm always a bitcautious that it is the panacea
for everything. And more, youknow, it's just not for
everybody. Some people reallydon't want to, it's not their
thing. They don't have the, thedesire or anything like that,
you know, I just, it's not, it'snot for everybody. So I think if
(37:18):
somebody has a yearning to doit, then, you know, that's,
that's that. What was the nextpart of the question?
Arwen Bardsley (37:26):
Oh, well, just Yeah. Why? Why? Why wouldn't
someone start a meditationpractice?
Wendy Nash (37:34):
So it starts to give you some options. So by because
I was meditating, I had a choiceabout when I interacted with
someone, whether to lash outwhether to walk away, or whether
(37:58):
to hold it? And so gives I thinkit's, that's what I liked the
most about it. Is that it? Itgives you just more options
about how you want to respond inany moment.
Arwen Bardsley (38:15):
And how does it do that?
Wendy Nash (38:18):
Yeah, so what happens is that you get, how
would I explain that? Whathappened? I have a sort of a
cheat question I've got this iswhat I do. This is major part of
my practice. But you can dothis, if you're working,
walking, going for a walk orgoing for a run or cleaning the
(38:40):
house? It's a really goodquestion. If you have a problem,
that you've got, like aninteraction, which is difficult,
or you're trying to solve anissue with work, or you've,
you've got a project you'reworking on, is to to bring that
to mind. And then say, What am Inot seeing about this? Just to
(39:03):
ask yourself, What am I notseeing about this? And then just
go about the the run or thecleaning, or whatever it is, and
the answer will arise. And oftenthere's something about if I'm
identifying very strongly with aparticular position, then it's
very hard to see what else isgoing on. And I can't almost
(39:25):
hear my own voice because I'vegot some really strong opinion
about it. So there's somethingabout owning an emotion that
often arises in meditation,which means that
once I've owned it, so a bitlike the anger, instead of
(39:48):
automatically lashing out tosomebody and being horrible. I
don't feel that same pressure torespond in that way to react in
that way. I start to have a bitof an idea that I can respond in
one way, or I can respond inanother way, I start to have
(40:08):
that choice. So I'm hoping I'm,I've sort of been clear.
Arwen Bardsley (40:14):
And so what are you doing in your when you're
sitting down in your meditationpractice? How is that? You know,
what will? I guess it's really,what are you doing? And yeah, so
how does that stuff arise foryou?
Wendy Nash (40:30):
Yeah, it's an interesting thing. So when, when
you meditate in the beginning,people go, Wow, you know, my
mind is really crazy, I don't, Ican't meditate, because my mind
is really crazy. And it's notthat those thoughts didn't exist
before, it's just that it's thefirst time you've heard them,
and they kind of are reallystrong and have a lot of
physical hold on the body. Sothe first thing to do is to
(40:59):
start to train to come back tothe breath, or whatever it is.
So if the practice is, forinstance, for me to look for
anything kind in the world,that's happening in my world,
then if I start going on to, uh,well, he said that she said that
she said that, he said, I can'tdo that. And then they would do
this and dadada, instead ofgoing down that conversation, I
(41:21):
just can come back, I start totrain my mind that actually,
this is not something I have toattend to, in this moment, I
actually start to have a choice.
And it does take a long time.
It's quite hard to explain howthat is. But yeah, it's it, it's
(41:43):
taken me a long, long time to beable to see the wisdom of that
practice of going ah. Because Ialways want to solve every
problem, you know, you're nevergoing to solve all the problems.
That's where I've got to now.
And actually, about thatwhirring mind, my, my
observation about the workingmind is that often it's about a
relationship that feels doubtfulin some way, we don't feel
(42:06):
properly connected to thatperson. And there can often be
some disappointment in there.
And there's often an emotion, soif you have like something Oh,
(42:26):
and I walked down the streetthis way. And then that guy, he
looked at me really funny. Andthen well, then there was that
really other scary time in mylife, and, and then, oh, my God,
when I was in Paris, andsomething like that happened,
and, and it seems like that'sone story, but there's four
different stories in there.
There is a common emotion to allthat so often in those big where
(42:47):
I got off into the galaxy, whereI've suddenly ended up, you
know, who knows where, often atthat point, where as soon as I
realized I'm far away, I go,what is the common emotion to
all these thoughts? And then Ijust come back to whatever
practice it is that I'm doing.
(43:10):
And that by looking at thecommon emotion, and then I go, I
feel afraid, yes, it's true. Ifeel afraid, then I own it. Then
the story abates then I'veintegrated the emotion, then I
next time I start to thinkabout, well, I'm walking down
the street, whatever, or I feela bit afraid. I start to feel I
(43:33):
have a bit more choice about it.
Because I don't I don't feel sophysically pulled by it or
something.
Arwen Bardsley (43:41):
Yeah, triggered by it. Yeah. And when you say
that you're saying to yourself,I feel angry. Yes. It's true. I
feel angry. Is it important tobe saying that out loud, or
that's not necessary? It canjust be Yep. Okay.
Wendy Nash (44:00):
Just internally is fine. It's just, it's really
just its own, its sole purposeis for each person to integrate
the emotions that remain, Iguess, slightly alien to
oneself. That's what I wouldsay. And it's, it's there is
this, we don't want to say, ah Iam angry? We don't want to own
(44:22):
it. And that's actually what'sbeing enacted, because we're,
there's a part of the mind,which is saying you need to
attend to this. And there'sanother part of the mind, which
is, but I'm not like that. Onlyhorrible. People don't like
that. I'm a good person. And soit's sort of joining up those
two worlds together. I guessthat's that's the way that I
would put it.
Arwen Bardsley (44:41):
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. All right. Yes. And so youhave spoken a bit about you
know, that you can even do thesekinds of practices while you're
going for a walk or doingwhatever. Because the the thing
people always say is You know,I've already got, you know, a
list a mile long of things Ihave to do. And meditation is
(45:03):
just one other thing to fit in.
So I mean is that your key tiparound that is to try and bring
in some of those practices whileyou're just doing something
else.
Wendy Nash (45:15):
Yeah, so I'm a great believer that meditation
shouldn't take anything, anymore time out of your day, I
think people are. I mean, ifyou're going to meditation
center or something like that,and you're really doing it,
that's a different cohort, adifferent need, there's some
something else going on. And Ireally, I do think sitting in a
group is really beneficial. Butwith a pandemic, that's not
(45:37):
always possible. With kidsfamily commitments, it's just
not always possible. Andsometimes we too knackered to
go, you know, we don't yet havemeans it's at night, and we
don't want to be out and dark,we don't have a car, something
like that. So I definitely don'tthink that's the case there are
because of the pandemic, a lotof online groups now. So that's
(45:58):
always possible. But basically,there's a ton of meditation
practices, which give you asense of kind of coming back to
where you are in this moment. Sothings like as you walk towards
the car, just noticing what thewhat is happening in the feet.
(46:24):
That's one, you know, if you'rewearing high heels, what is it
like to kind of walk on highheels and what is happening in
the body in that experience,Sharon Salzberg is very well
known meditation teacher andloving kindness. She says, as
you touch the steering wheel, orthe key, or whatever it is, when
(46:45):
you're starting the car, sheprobably people don't have keys
anymore that they are becauseI've seen them, okay, I don't
have a car, but I've seen theirown cars, which don't have keys
anymore. And so as you, as yousit down and touch, just notice
the sensation of the steeringwheel on your hand, and the
(47:08):
muscles that you're using. Andno one is so busy, they can't
take three seconds to do that.
So that's another one. One of myfavorites, which I think is
really good for people who arecompletely frantic, and you've
got cleaning to do and you'vegot this to do and everything
else is around the house,there's a really good meditation
(47:30):
practice called leave no trace.
So if you make a cup of tea,instead of when you finish that
cup of tea, you just put it onthe sideboard, you wash it up,
you put it on the sideboard, youget the tea towels, you dry it
up, you put it in the cupboard.
And then you're not left with apile of dishes. And so that's a
(47:55):
really good one as an initial.
And what that does is it alsotrains your mind to go to here
into any resentment, why am Idoing this, why don't want to
clean up and I'm too busy. Andyou can hear all that. And then
it's like, I feel very resentfulyeah it's true I feel very
(48:15):
resentful. And that starts toease that. And then I started
with just doing the dishes likethat. And then I after brushing
the teeth wiping down the basin,going to the toilet, using you
know, just wiping downeverything after the shower,
wiping down the shower so thatit's clean, and then you don't
(48:35):
get the mold build up. And ifyou just do that, every time you
do something when it comes tothe weekend, or or, you know,
the house is always in a prettygood state of how it is. And
then you don't get to theweekend and think I've got now
got to spend two hours cleaningthe house with gritted teeth. I
(48:57):
am so grateful for my house.
Yeah, you know, it's most ofit's done. So that that's
another one which I find reallygood. I do think that you can if
you sit in bed, and just putyour phone on airplane mode, and
set a timer for 60 seconds, justto feel the sensations of the
(49:22):
breath. That's that. And theother thing that I would say is
also that when you when thosethoughts where all goes, you
know, and he said that she saidthat she said that he said and
start going, you know, and thenI walked down the street and did
(49:43):
that. It's actually in thismoment that those memories and
thoughts are arising so often. Ihad a client the other day who's
saying that? My meditationsthey're really I'm striving and
I'm really I'm remembering allthese fearful arguments. And I
(50:05):
was really afraid and seeing andit's like, are you in a time
where you're fighting a lot? Doyou feel afraid now? Do you feel
angry now? And he said, Yes. Soall those memories were just
coming, reminding him of earliertimes, when he felt like what he
felt now. And simply byacknowledging, I feel afraid, I
(50:27):
feel angry, I feel frustrated,that then stops all those past
memories kind of coming back. SoI hope I've answered the
question
Arwen Bardsley (50:37):
beautiful. And for people who do want to, you
know, sit down and have somemeditation time separate to
everything else. Firstly, howoften? And how long would you
recommend for someone starting?
And then secondly, do yourecommend particular apps
(50:59):
because I know there's 1,000,001Meditation apps out there? I
personally, I love InsightTimer. But yeah, I'd love to get
your take on just how ifsomebody does want to, you know,
have a have a set practice, howthey go about that to start
with?
Wendy Nash (51:17):
I think when you're starting, I think the apps are
really useful, because the mindis very crazy. And it takes a
while to get the physiology ofthe body just down, you know.
And I think if you can manage totry to do that every day, that's
great. And I always, alwaysthink it's really good to start
with the shortest meditationpossible. So just because it
(51:40):
takes so long to get into thehabit of it, you know, it's very
hard to, and I actually, firsttime I meditated, and this is
really common, I did it, I wentto a Buddhist center, and I did
meditation day. And then it wasanother three to five years
before I did it again, I justwasn't ready. So I definitely
(52:01):
don't think it's good to hurry.
I think Insight Timer is reallygood. It can be quite, there's a
lot going on on that one, so,that's the only thing I would
say is like, you kind of almostneed to know which teacher
you're going to go for in orderto, to choose that one. But
there are some really amazingteachers on that one. And some
(52:22):
teachers that I think are verywell regarded that would be
useful for your audience isKristin Neff, who's a lot about
self compassion. She does a loton self compassion. So I think
for your audience, which ispeople who are super busy, I
think that's her and expecting alot from themselves. That can be
she's really, really good. So Iwould recommend her.
Arwen Bardsley (52:45):
She's on Insight timer?
Wendy Nash (52:48):
Yeah, I believe so.
Arwen Bardsley (52:49):
Yeah. Okay.
Wendy Nash (52:50):
And if she's not, she's definitely around
Arwen Bardsley (52:52):
Just Google her.
Yeah.
Wendy Nash (52:54):
Yep. And that's Kristin with a K. The other one
is also headspace, is highlyrecommended. They're a little
it's a little bit expensive. ButI have I have a friend and he,
he did it. He did the course.
And then he said, Now what do Ido, I say go back to the
beginning and do it again. Andthen go do it again. And just
keep repeating. And he keptgoing with it for about three
(53:16):
years just doing repeat andrepeat and repeat. And he was
having a really bad time atwork. And he said it just
completely made him sane.
There's another one calledwaking up. But I think that's a
bit more Buddhist-y
Arwen Bardsley (53:35):
it is.
Wendy Nash (53:36):
And, and it's much more about enlightenment. So
it's good, really interestingtalk. So perhaps if you have,
you're in hospital, you've gotcancer or something like that.
That's actually a really goodone to go for. Yeah, so I think
they're definitely useful onesbut start small. Totally. And
(53:59):
the most important thing is todo it daily. Yeah,
Arwen Bardsley (54:01):
right. Okay, so that was gonna be my next
question is, you know, shouldyou be try? So are you saying,
you know, like, you're betteroff to do five minutes daily
than to do 15 minutes? A fewtimes a week?
Wendy Nash (54:14):
Yeah. And I would even say, even if you can just
find one minute. Yeah, don'teven bother getting up to five
minutes. Five minutes is a lotfor a beginner. One minute is
plenty. It's absolutely plenty.
I have I have a client and shewas at one minute. And then she
went on to then she's stuck itto for about a month. And, you
know, I've got a few clients andthey can just about make it to
(54:36):
four-five minutes. And they'vebeen doing it for maybe three
months. And I coached them everyweek or fortnight, or how to
navigate that process. It's abig if people can't manage to
meditate, you know, like rightoff the bat. That would be
completely normal.
Arwen Bardsley (54:54):
Yes, yeah. Yeah, it is a practice. So that means
we have to practise it. Okay.
All right. That's great. And doyou have meditations that people
can access?
Wendy Nash (55:10):
Not yet. I have been a bit slack about. I've got to
do them. But one of the things Iwant to do is to get the John
Makransky's because I thinkthere's so fantastic, but John
Makransky is on Insight Timeranyway, so you can get it
straight from the horse's mouth.
So he does them. No, I haven't.
There's so many people who doreally good meditations Yeah,
(55:32):
and I yeah, I'm qualified as ameditation teacher. And I do
leave them with some clients.
They're very tailored to thespecific person and need and,
and whatever. But generally, Ifind that I always encourage
people to find the one thatworks for them. Because
everybody, what works for me isloving kindness meditation, a
(55:53):
particular kind, that's notnecessarily going to be what's
gonna work for you.
Arwen Bardsley (55:59):
Yeah, that's so true. What works for me is yoga.
Nidra. Yeah, so we are alldifferent. So just before we
finish, Wendy, please do share,you know what, what you're what
exactly your services are thatpeople might be interested in,
following you up on and also howthey can do that where they can
Wendy Nash (56:19):
Thank you, I do want to say thank you very much for
find you.
being a really warm, kind host.
It's very lovely to be in thisinterview, it feels very
spacious. It's the first timeI've been in an interview where
I've done a few now, where I'vejust felt, oh, I can be really
spacious here. So I want toreally thank you for really
(56:41):
reflecting it in and making thatexperience possible.
Arwen Bardsley (56:48):
So thank you, that's a beautiful kindness that
I will reflect on for the next24 hours at least.
Wendy Nash (56:58):
So my business is called kindly Cut the crap,
Dot com. So it'sjust kindlycutthecrap.com
Arwen Bardsley (57:02):
love it There's no au. And that's
because I'm a very straight tothe point kind of person. And I
also like double entendre. So Ilike to have double meanings of
words and kindly means to bekind and it means please, so and
I'm. So I just feel like andit's a name that no one ever
(57:26):
forgets. So that's how I've gota brand new website, and the
contact box wasn't workingyesterday. So I do apologize.
People don't have thepossibility of using that. If
not, you can emailwendy@kindlycutthecrap.com that
part is working. And I also havea LinkedIn account so there you
(57:50):
are. I keep my social mediareally low.
And LinkedIn is Wendy Nash?
Wendy Nash (57:57):
There's a couple of Wendy Nash's, so don't get the
wrong one!
Arwen Bardsley (58:02):
Find the right one.
Wendy Nash (58:03):
Find the right one.
I'm actually in Queensland, Imust update my LinkedIn profile.
Is that because I've just movedobviously. But basically what I
do in terms of what whatservices do I provide, people
have, I want to learnmeditation, and then I just
coach them to navigate whatarises. So and and how to set up
a daily practice. That's what Ido. So I don't necessarily guide
(58:27):
meditation.
Arwen Bardsley (58:30):
Yeah, right.
Wendy Nash (58:30):
I help them navigate the challenges that arise.
Arwen Bardsley (58:34):
Okay. Yeah, sounds wonderful. Well, thank
you so much for your time,Wendy, and all your wisdom. I'm
really grateful that you wereable to give that to us today.
And it was really wonderful tomeet you.
Wendy Nash (58:51):
It's been delightful. Thank you so much,
Arwen.
All right, welcome, everybody really
delighted today to have WendyNash on as my guest. Wendy has a
four year somatic psychotherapydiploma. And she has also a
bachelor of psychology and herhonours thesis was where she
(00:21):
studied the effects of lovingkindness meditation on pro
social behavior. Wendy has beenpracticing loving kindness and
other meditations for almost 20years, all of these things that
she has done have beenprofoundly positive on Wendy's
wellbeing, and relationships,and turned around the negatives
(00:44):
of difficult early lifeexperiences. So I'm so pleased
to have Wendy here with us todayto share her experiences that
really become that life wisdomthat it's so good for all of us
to share with each other. SoWendy, I would love if we can
just start with the you know,about you what, how did you get
(01:08):
to be where you are now, as ameditation coach? What were the
steps along the way, whateveryou want to share? And, you
know, I think it's reallyimportant for people to
understand the journey thatsomeone else has been on.
Wendy Nash (01:22):
Thanks, Arwen, thank you for the warm welcome. And
it's always interesting to hearsome of the introduction, just,
you know, to hear it in somebodyelse's voice is is kind of very,
very nice. And it makes me soundkind of more important perhaps
than I am! Before I go on, I dowant to just say that, I think
(01:49):
it's really important torecognize the country I'm
calling from. So because if wedon't know where we've come
from, we don't know where weare. And we don't know where
we're going. So I'm calling fromGabby Gabby country in
Queensland. And I just reallywant to honor the good work and
(02:11):
care and thoughtfulness that theindigenous people have had on
this land for 70,000 years,which unfortunately, we seem to
have managed to trash in about250 years. But I really want to
honor that, that knowledge andway of being in the world. So
(02:32):
that's where I like to start.
Arwen Bardsley (02:33):
Thank you so much. And I would like to
reiterate that for theWurundjeri people where I am on
as well. Thank you for doingthat. Wendy.
Wendy Nash (02:40):
It's my pleasure.
And you asked about where Iwhere I started. Basically, I
did have a difficult early life,but I still managed to live in a
few different countries. And Igot married. And then I thought
I had it all together. I thoughtI had all the answers. And then
my ex husband left, he justcouldn't he couldn't stay in the
(03:04):
marriage, which was the rightdecision. But nonetheless, I was
completely thrown for six. And Iwas seeing a psychotherapist,
and she was very, very advancedZen practitioner, and very
experienced Zen practitioner,and she just said you need to
(03:24):
chill. I was absolutely wound uplike a clock. Very Prickly, very
crisp, probably had anger, man.
I mean, I know I had angermanagement issues. It was very
difficult. I was very bitter andhurt because of a lot of very
(03:45):
difficult things to come toterms with both my sister and my
father died when I was a childand I had dropped out of school
and I changed schools a lot. Andit was just very chaotic and
difficult growing up in thatenvironment to gain a sense of
sanity and normality. So I tookI started. And when I started, I
(04:08):
actually didn't even know whatit meant to feel loved. So
that's actually where I, I hadno sense of what it meant to
feel loved in a family. And thatdoesn't mean to say that my
family didn't love me. It's justthat there was this gap between
how I felt and what washappening around me. And it was
(04:28):
very hard for me to say that Iwas loved even though I was
loved and and I couldn'texperience that. So I was really
angry. And I just needed to dosomething about that. And I
found the loving kindnesspractices really good. There's a
sort of standard practice thatpeople have where you start
(04:52):
reciting some phrases and foryourself, for your good friend,
for a neutral person, a thedifficult person, and then
everybody. And I couldn't evenbegin to understand that I just
didn't even feel love anywhere.
So I had to really think aboutwhat does love mean? And what
(05:13):
does it mean to? To wish someoneWell? Yeah, I, I found that very
confusing and difficult for along time. But I kept going. So
the first thing I did was, Itrained myself to not be angry.
So whenever I wanted to speakout and be angry, I just didn't
(05:36):
like sitting on your hands, ifyou're going to talk, you know,
if I was gonna say somethingsharp, I just didn't. And I was
seeing a counsellor as well. Sothat that worked well. And then
I came across a book about 201415, called awakening through
(05:56):
love by John Makranksy. And hehad this exercise, where I had
to go back into my childhood,and look for any instances where
somebody had been kind to me. Soit might have been a
relationship, which generallywas not good. So maybe one of my
siblings, but nonetheless, therewas something that one of my
(06:20):
brothers, and I just went, Oh,actually, we used to bicycle
ride together. And that wasreally fun, you know. And so I
sort of slowly increased mycapacity to feel love, which was
just so transformative, becauseI was very, very bitter and
(06:41):
hurt. So I stepped through allthese things and stopped being
angry, started looking for morekindness in the world. So things
like there's a practice, I thinkPema Chodron who's a very well
known Tibetan, Buddhist teacher,she's North American. She's, her
(07:01):
father is actually fromMelbourne. So, but she's raised
in the US. And she called itcheerfulness practice, but I
think it probably has anothername. And basically, you just go
through your day, and you lookfor any acts of kindness, or
(07:22):
pleasantness in your day, soslightly different from the
gratefulness practice for youknow, I'm so grateful for this,
I personally find that quitedifficult, because
there's something that I feellike I'm doing more, and I don't
(07:42):
want to do any more, I just wantto acknowledge what is there. So
I, I found this practice, and Ijust go back to the previous
day, so this time yesterday, andI think, Well, what was what was
happening this time yesterday.
And I was actually doing anotherinterview. And I had a really
(08:04):
lovely host, and he was reallylike you warm, and welcoming,
and asking very thoughtfulquestions. And, you know, he, he
was really keen to engage withme in a way that was really
appreciative actually, of what Icould share. So I just started
(08:26):
there. And then I had somereally yummy yoghurt, which my
partner had actually bought theday before, on his way home. And
to make sure that I hadsomething yummy to eat during
the day, or he had somethinglike he went out of his way to
(08:47):
the supermarket to bring me somefood. And so just to acknowledge
that other people are doingthings for me, and two, I call
it receive it receivegracefully, you know, to not
just our you know, a partner,he's just went grocery shopping,
and you know, who cares, butreally go wow, he actually paid
(09:08):
attention, did that and hewanted to make me happy. So that
if you've just stepped throughyour day going like that
actually makes the day so muchmore pleasant and enjoyable, but
it might be I'm after this, I'mgoing to go for a walk. And I
(09:29):
just I've got to go to the postoffice. But it's it's quite
sunny and warm here. So just tofeel the sun on my back into
that sense that lovely warmth.
So just looking for those sortsof things. So I found all these
small practices really usefulfor making me feel less
(09:53):
depleted. Less resentful, lessangry, and So 20 years ago, I
was very, very angry. And duringthe pandemic, when it broke, I
was actually in Amsterdam on ameditation retreat. And it was
March. And we were in silence.
So I had no idea what hadhappened about the pandemic. And
(10:16):
we were suddenly told, you'vegot to go home. And I looked
around at the the other peoplein the room, and I went, I am
not the angriest person here.
That's not me. And I was talkingwith a friend who I'd only known
(10:37):
for a couple of years. And he'san experienced psychotherapist
of 30 years. So he's used tosort of sussing people very,
very quickly. And I said, Well,I'm not the angriest person in
the room. And he turned to meand he said, you angry? I
thought, done it. I've done it.
So that's where I started from.
(11:00):
That's where I am. And that'sbeen it, I was able to change.
But it didn't change with thatapplication. Like I did have to
make that effort to think inthis moment. What am I going to
do? Am I going to lash out? Inwhich case I'm just kind of
(11:20):
keeping those neurons in thatspace? Or am I going to hold
back? So that's, that's how Idid.
Arwen Bardsley (11:28):
Ok ay,so there's a couple of things that come out
from that, for me is firstly,with the anger, you know, where
does it go? Like, you know, likethat, that beautiful analogy of
sitting on your hands, you know,I just worry about people not
using the energy of their angerin so you know, getting rid of
(11:52):
it, I guess, is the thing. Howdo you what would you say about
that?
Wendy Nash (11:59):
You know, the thing about it? Is that it it rises
up. And I don't, I guess squishit down. I let it I kind of I
what I often do in my meditationpractice, if I find that, you
know, it sittings I've generallymostly I sit for an hour every
day, I don't think this is byany stretch of beginner's
(12:21):
meditation practice to, to sitfor an hour every day. But I sit
for an hour. And then often I'llbe thinking about someone. And
you know, I had an interactionwith somebody the other day, and
I thought oh I'm a bithumiliated by that, you know,
and I was a bit hurt and a bitangry. And so what I'll do in
that instance, is just say tomyself, I feel angry. Yes, it's
(12:46):
true. I feel angry. And simplyallowing, acknowledging it's
true. Then it goes through mybody. I haven't suppressed it. I
haven't ignored it. And nor haveI lashed out. And so it, it just
(13:13):
it means that I don't harmothers. And it also means that
don't harm myself. I just allowthe truth of it to come forward.
Arwen Bardsley (13:22):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because I just really
worry about people suppressinganger, and that becoming, you
know, physical or mentalillness. So that's wonderful.
Thank you so much for explainingthat. And the other thing for me
was, you talked when you weretalking about the practice of
(13:43):
recognizing kindness in thosesmall ways going back through
the last 24 hours, but then yousaid something about it you
didn't feel like that was agratitude practice. It kind of
sounded like a gratitudepractice for me can you
differentiate the two
Wendy Nash (13:59):
I guess you know, there is quite it's quite
popular the the gratitudepractice but I feel like you
know, I'm I'm so grateful that Ihave food and others don't you
this there can be something abit forced or so I'm, you know,
(14:22):
I'm having a really tough timeat work. Say, you know, people
have really demanding jobs,demanding family situations. I'm
so grateful that I'm in a lovingfamily. I'm so grateful. My help
my children are healthy. It canjust feel a bit forced. I think
sometimes that that's why Idon't like that. But if you just
(14:45):
go, Yeah, my my child came to meand did so in the interview
yesterday. I did. There was theguy who had seen his son came to
him and introduced he's likehe's 15, Dad I've got I've got
this girl and really sweet onand she plays basketball and the
(15:07):
father and the son both playbasketball. So they went down
there. And he was just going,you know, now go to her and say
she, she, she did that. And thesons going 'oh I can't I'm
really shy, I feel really shy'.
And there's something reallybeautiful about, you know, just
recognizing that therelationship is so good between
(15:30):
the father and son, that thismost vulnerable experience of a
teenage boy being sweet on agirl and feeling so gawky and
awkward about that. And his theboy's willingness to share that
with his father. Now, there'snothing to be grateful in there.
It's just recognizing thatthere's beauty is an act of
(15:53):
generosity on behalf of the sonto show that
Arwen Bardsley (16:01):
it sure is on the part of the teenager. That's
an amazing outcome. Yeah, yeah.
Okay, well, thank you. Thank youfor clarifying that. That's
wonderful. So I know that you doa lot of work with leaders with
CEOs and especially withfounders of startups. And, as we
talked about, before, we startedrecording that certainly not my
(16:23):
target audience for this podcastand video series. But if you're
out there, and you're takingthis content in, thank you, I
appreciate you being here,whoever you are, and whatever
your job is. But, you know, I dofeel that whatever we're doing
with our lives, firstly, we'veall worked in an organization
with a leader or leaders, and wecan, you know, have some
(16:47):
understanding of what that thoserelationships mean, and how it's
so important how that leaderbehaves to the organization and
to you as an employee, or, oreven, you know, in a more
collegial relationship, anyonewho's who's leading, it's so
important. And we also know,obviously, that people leave
(17:12):
organizations because they'releaving a culture they're not,
you know, they're, they're kindof, they're not leaving the job.
They're, they're leaving theculture, and really, the people
and that stems from the leaders.
So and also, my other thing is,well, we're all leaders to some
extent in our own lives, even ifit's just in your household,
(17:34):
you're the leader. So just thatwhole concept of leadership and
your expertise in that. I readyour statement. It's the unknown
psychological stuff, the leaderavoids learning about themselves
that gets played out in theoffice, or we can swap office
for whatever situation it is.
I'd just love to hear some moreof you more from you about that.
Wendy Nash (18:01):
Okay, that's a really interesting, thank you
for raising that. When you'vebeen in an organization, so
you've worked in otherorganizations, and it feels
toxic? Well, I'll say that whenI've worked in organizations, my
observation is, you know, oftenthe leader wants to be this
(18:21):
great leader. But they're sobusy focusing on themselves.
They're actually not leading,they're actually they're not
paying attention to thefollowers, so to speak, you
can't lead without being afollower. But in any of your
relationships, if you thinkabout it.
(18:46):
Have you had, I guess, thesituation where I've thought I
was providing good information,I was clear, I have an identity
that I'm a good communicator,because I talk a lot. But it
(19:07):
turns out, I'm not very good atlistening. I'm just using this
as an example because I knowsomebody who, who says, Well,
I'm a good communicator, becauseactually, she just likes to talk
a lot. She's very opinionated.
And she's actually a terriblecommunicator. And it has real
negative consequences on her herbehavior, on on the people
(19:30):
around her. So for instance,actually, that's a very common
one where people feel that theyhave a particular identity of
maybe being generous. And thereis a saying, which says that
(19:56):
people are the opposite. of whothey say they are. And so my
sense of say, say you have anunder the I don't, I don't know
if this is true, have anidentity about being generous.
And, and what it is doing isit's noticing, when you do that,
when you are generous, but it'snot noticing all the times when
(20:21):
you're stingy. So, likewise, I'ma good communicator, is saying,
well, these are all the timesthat I'm talking and I'm giving
information. But it's nottalking about the times when
that particular person is speaksvery harshly, and has terrible
(20:44):
relationships. Actually, they'reall you know, the one common
denominator in all yourrelationships is you. And so,
you know, that's, that's how itis. So I'm not sure I'm being
very clear here. But basically,I, so for me, I have an identity
that I'm a very angry person.
(21:08):
And then people say, I, you'reso warm and friendly and open.
But because 20 years ago, I wasa really angry person, I still
see myself quite a lot likethat. And so I'm always
thinking, I was a bit angrythere, I shouldn't be like that.
And so I still think of myselfas being very angry, even though
(21:31):
a lot of most people don't seeme in that way. So what I would
say is, whatever you identifyyourself, as you might identify
as a good person, therefore youdon't see where you're a bad
person. If you identify yourselfas a bad person, you don't see
(21:51):
where you are a good person,because the identity is very
stuck there. So what I would sayis, before you had a career in
something, you kind of had acorporate life, I think,
Arwen Bardsley (22:04):
yes, I did. Yep.
Wendy Nash (22:06):
Yeah. And so you saw yourself in a particular light.
And then something happened. Andyou started to realize,
actually, I'm not who I thoughtI was. And so when you're in
that corporate life, did youstart to see that people weren't
(22:31):
reacting in the way that you hadhoped? Because you saw yourself
as having a particular trait orquality? And they weren't seeing
that or or they were seeingsomething very, very different.
Arwen Bardsley (22:46):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And even more, I
mean, I would say, for me, itwas more, you know, my kind of
midlife crisis was more aroundpersonal life stuff and seeing
myself as a, a wife and ahomemaker. And, uh, you know, as
well as, obviously, I had a job.
But you know, and that I wasreally good at all of that, but
(23:12):
that then my marriage brokedown. So clearly, there were
things that I was not good at,that I wasn't recognizing. And
so I think you're saying, soeven just on the most basic
level, a good, someone whothinks they're a good leader, is
not paying attention to all theways in which they're not a good
(23:34):
leader.
Wendy Nash (23:37):
That's right. Yeah.
And that that's the same in thefamily. Yeah, I'm a good wife.
I'm a good mother. Why do mychildren hate me? I'm good. I'm
a good mother. You know, and youmay have teenage boys, in which
case, I think that's normal. Ihave an acquaintance and she's
going, my son is saying thesehorrible, horrible things. To
(23:58):
me. It's so unbearable, andshe's a meditator. She said
she's used to this and she, youknow, it's just hard. At certain
phases. There's no two waysabout that. Yeah, but she also
has to recognize maybe she's notso good at sometimes at saying
she's a bit harsh or she isperhaps not as thoughtful as she
(24:20):
could be.
Arwen Bardsley (24:23):
Yeah. Yeah.
Thank you for that. Sorelationships, we've already
spoken a bit about them becausethey are key to everything. And
I mean, I think you know, prettycommon knowledge is that the key
to making your relationships aplace where you can grow and
(24:45):
develop and thrive iscommunication. And I know that
you've got a lot of skill incommunicate the area of
communication and teachingpeople about communicating well
as as well. Can you I just wouldlove because you have that, that
(25:06):
skill I would love to just get.
And I know it's a big topic, butI'd love to get your you know,
kind of a basic 101. Any anytips you can you share with
people about communication thatmight help them in their day to
day lives?
Wendy Nash (25:24):
Sure, I think it's not nearly as complicated as we
think. That's what I would say,like, we have an idea, I'm not a
good communicator, or we have anidea. I'm a good communicator.
And both of those are incorrect,because sometimes we're good at
it and sometimes we're not. WhatI would say is that
(25:45):
communication is more aboutlistening than it is about
speaking. But we need to, weneed to, it's actually a lot
about question syntax. So if youwant to get an answer that is
(26:07):
useful, meaningful, thoughtful,you've got to structure your
sentences with the correctsentence. So say, for instance,
you, someone comes to you andsays, I'm having a really bad
(26:31):
day, instead of going into themode of, well, you know, have
you slept properly? Have youeaten properly? Or what happened
or something like that? Maybewhat happened, but that has a
slightly hard edge to it. Butmaybe something like? So tell me
more about what happened today.
That opener, tell me more aboutreally starts to open it out.
(26:56):
It's a very loose generalquestion. And it's a very good
question, to begin aconversation. And the way you
start a conversation is the wayyou end the conversation. So if
you start with Well, what didyou do today? Then, if you had,
you know, like, why didn't youfix it? Whatever. A harsh
(27:18):
startup. This is. John Gottman,the Gottman Institute, this is
their thing. You start harshlyyou end harshly someone slams
the door. But if you start with,so tell me more about what's
going on for you or whathappened in the day, that really
gives a lot more possibility forcuriosity. And then, I would say
(27:41):
that always ask a question,which begins with what? Or how?
What were the specificinteractions that you had that
made you feel x y Zed? What wasit like to be in that situation?
(28:10):
Just to start with what? Or how,how did that unfold? What's your
sense of it? If if you if byasking would you say that's
coming back to me? Would you saythat's because you weren't very
good at communicating? Then thatsays it's very loaded? And it's
(28:31):
actually Well, I'll tell you allabout communication. So do you
think is also a very, it's alsoa closed question, and it's
loaded. And another one is to beis to not do is to ask is or
are. So don't start it questionwith is or are. Is that because
(28:52):
you did x y Zed? Are you sayingthis happened? So it's good to
just keep it really, really openand then finally you know, we've
done a lot about paraphrasingand emotions and things like
(29:15):
that. But and and activelistening where you go into a
feeling - oh it sounds like youfeel angry about this and but I
find in a workplace that's notappropriate. And and I don't
always think it's veryappropriate. I can I think it
(29:36):
can feel a bit intrusive,particularly if you have kids,
too. It's not everybody wantsto. It's not always the right
time. But what I found is thisquestion and it's a book. I got
it out of a book by LaurenceAlison and Emily Alison called
(29:56):
Rapport. They do criminalinterviews, and social services
interviews. And what they useis, it sounds like you care
about. So in your interview sofar, what I've heard is that it
sounds like you really careabout providing useful hints and
(30:19):
tips for your listeners, youwant the audience to feel that
they're included and accepted.
And that even if you have it,you have something that is
relevant to the workplace, thatyou take it into your home life
and vice versa. So I can, I canhear that there's a lot of
(30:40):
thoughtfulness and experienceand openness in your interviews.
But so just starting with what Ihear you care about. And then
the person just feels reallydeeply heard. Very interesting.
I thought that was I thoughtthat that one sentence was one
(31:04):
of the I think, one of the mostuseful, I guess it is a question
because it says, What are youcare about is this, and then the
silent? Is that true? is sittingthere and a person has the
capacity to come up. But really,it's as simple as that. It's not
complicated, but it takespractice, because I was working
(31:29):
with a client last week, andhe's an elderly gentleman, he's
in his 70s. And his tendency is,do you think and would you say
and did this and what about thatand have that, and it was very
kind of perfunctory, and Ididn't enjoy the conversation.
And we had, I was very difficultto retrain him, he was a
(31:52):
journalist as a young man. Andwe get stuck in our
conversational habits. So justdoing that is really opens it
out. And it just takes a lot ofthe tension out of a lot of the
accusation. And the otherquestion is to never ask is why
why did you do that? It's, it'squite harsh. So it's not I think
(32:13):
it's not more complicated thanthat.
Arwen Bardsley (32:18):
So as an example, then, so let's do the
quintessential parent talking tothe kid after school. And the
question is always how wasschool? And then of course, you
always get the good, or you justget a grant or whatever. So you
might say, Tell me about yourday at school? Or something like
(32:39):
that. Correct?
Wendy Nash (32:40):
I heard Yeah. I did hear somebody say choose one
particular subject. Right. Letme tell me what happened in
maths today. Yeah, yeah.
Arwen Bardsley (32:51):
And then, so then if the kid goes, Okay, or,
you know, oh, I didn't go tomath today. And then of course,
you would say why. So what wouldyou say instead?
Wendy Nash (33:08):
Oh, what was happening for you? That didn't,
yeah, what was happening foryou? Yeah.
Arwen Bardsley (33:16):
Okay, so can you just reiterate those steps
again? So what do we what do westart our sentences with?
Wendy Nash (33:22):
So I think first question is, so you've said, We
can do a bit of a role playhere, you know, where you can
just ask me about school today.
So yeah, tell me what happenedat school today. You know, in
maths, so tell me more. Yep.
(33:44):
That's really useful ifsomeone's got a problem. I don't
know how to do my scienceproject dadada. You know, it's
all it's all due tomorrow. And Idon't know anything. I haven't
read the books on either or Sotell me more about what you need
to produce for the, theassignment. Tell me more. And
such an opener, it's such aninviter. A question that starts
(34:07):
with what a question and startswith her. What exactly do you
need to do? How are you going toget that information? Yep. And
what I hear you care about isthat you might fail you. You
(34:28):
want to do a good assignment.
Arwen Bardsley (34:35):
Yep.And not why haven't you done it before? Now?
Wendy Nash (34:38):
What help is that?
Yeah. How is that going to be apositive? The past has gone
handy with that. Yeah.
Arwen Bardsley (34:56):
Great.
Wendy Nash (34:58):
I just want to say I don't have children
Arwen Bardsley (35:02):
I mean, but you know, also, as we keep saying,
you know, you can apply that inany, in any area of life. It's
just, that's always one that,you know, whenever I'm getting
together with friends who arealso parents of teenagers, it's
always that, you know, well,they don't tell me anything. And
we'll probably a lot of thereason is that you're not asking
those open ended questions.
Wendy Nash (35:24):
Actually, that book Rapport by Laurence and Emily
Alison, she, she gives a lot ofexamples of how to talk to your
teenager, because she does a lotof social work. And she's done a
lot with relationships that arevery strained between a teenager
and a parent. And she just says,This is how you do it. And she
says, this is the kind ofcharacter you're looking, you're
(35:46):
actually speaking to, this iswho you are, these are the
strength of the styles ofcommunication. And this is who
you're talking to. And these arethe strengths and weaknesses of
this type of character. And shegets you to mix, mix and match.
So you can target you can bereally clear about who, who
you're speaking to, so that itwill satisfy their need.
Arwen Bardsley (36:09):
Yeah, great.
Thank you so much, that was sovaluable. Now, I did say I
wanted to focus this interviewon meditation. So I'd like to
circle back around to that. Iknow you did start with talking
about your first experienceswith the loving kindness
meditation. But I'd love andobviously, you spoke about the
(36:32):
fact that it helped you tomanage your anger, let go of
your anger. What are thebenefits have you had? Or what
other? You know? What are thereasons why people should start
a meditation practice, I guess,is really what I'm wanting to
get at?
Wendy Nash (36:54):
Yeah, I think it's really beneficial for most
people. I'm always a bitcautious that it is the panacea
for everything. And more, youknow, it's just not for
everybody. Some people reallydon't want to, it's not their
thing. They don't have the, thedesire or anything like that,
you know, I just, it's not, it'snot for everybody. So I think if
(37:18):
somebody has a yearning to doit, then, you know, that's,
that's that. What was the nextpart of the question?
Arwen Bardsley (37:26):
Oh, well, just Yeah. Why? Why? Why wouldn't
someone start a meditationpractice?
Wendy Nash (37:34):
So it starts to give you some options. So by because
I was meditating, I had a choiceabout when I interacted with
someone, whether to lash outwhether to walk away, or whether
(37:58):
to hold it? And so gives I thinkit's, that's what I liked the
most about it. Is that it? Itgives you just more options
about how you want to respond inany moment.
Arwen Bardsley (38:15):
And how does it do that?
Wendy Nash (38:18):
Yeah, so what happens is that you get, how
would I explain that? Whathappened? I have a sort of a
cheat question I've got this iswhat I do. This is major part of
my practice. But you can dothis, if you're working,
walking, going for a walk orgoing for a run or cleaning the
(38:40):
house? It's a really goodquestion. If you have a problem,
that you've got, like aninteraction, which is difficult,
or you're trying to solve anissue with work, or you've,
you've got a project you'reworking on, is to to bring that
to mind. And then say, What am Inot seeing about this? Just to
(39:03):
ask yourself, What am I notseeing about this? And then just
go about the the run or thecleaning, or whatever it is, and
the answer will arise. And oftenthere's something about if I'm
identifying very strongly with aparticular position, then it's
very hard to see what else isgoing on. And I can't almost
(39:25):
hear my own voice because I'vegot some really strong opinion
about it. So there's somethingabout owning an emotion that
often arises in meditation,which means that
once I've owned it, so a bitlike the anger, instead of
(39:48):
automatically lashing out tosomebody and being horrible. I
don't feel that same pressure torespond in that way to react in
that way. I start to have a bitof an idea that I can respond in
one way, or I can respond inanother way, I start to have
(40:08):
that choice. So I'm hoping I'm,I've sort of been clear.
Arwen Bardsley (40:14):
And so what are you doing in your when you're
sitting down in your meditationpractice? How is that? You know,
what will? I guess it's really,what are you doing? And yeah, so
how does that stuff arise foryou?
Wendy Nash (40:30):
Yeah, it's an interesting thing. So when, when
you meditate in the beginning,people go, Wow, you know, my
mind is really crazy, I don't, Ican't meditate, because my mind
is really crazy. And it's notthat those thoughts didn't exist
before, it's just that it's thefirst time you've heard them,
and they kind of are reallystrong and have a lot of
physical hold on the body. Sothe first thing to do is to
(40:59):
start to train to come back tothe breath, or whatever it is.
So if the practice is, forinstance, for me to look for
anything kind in the world,that's happening in my world,
then if I start going on to, uh,well, he said that she said that
she said that, he said, I can'tdo that. And then they would do
this and dadada, instead ofgoing down that conversation, I
(41:21):
just can come back, I start totrain my mind that actually,
this is not something I have toattend to, in this moment, I
actually start to have a choice.
And it does take a long time.
It's quite hard to explain howthat is. But yeah, it's it, it's
(41:43):
taken me a long, long time to beable to see the wisdom of that
practice of going ah. Because Ialways want to solve every
problem, you know, you're nevergoing to solve all the problems.
That's where I've got to now.
And actually, about thatwhirring mind, my, my
observation about the workingmind is that often it's about a
relationship that feels doubtfulin some way, we don't feel
(42:06):
properly connected to thatperson. And there can often be
some disappointment in there.
And there's often an emotion, soif you have like something Oh,
(42:26):
and I walked down the streetthis way. And then that guy, he
looked at me really funny. Andthen well, then there was that
really other scary time in mylife, and, and then, oh, my God,
when I was in Paris, andsomething like that happened,
and, and it seems like that'sone story, but there's four
different stories in there.
There is a common emotion to allthat so often in those big where
(42:47):
I got off into the galaxy, whereI've suddenly ended up, you
know, who knows where, often atthat point, where as soon as I
realized I'm far away, I go,what is the common emotion to
all these thoughts? And then Ijust come back to whatever
practice it is that I'm doing.
(43:10):
And that by looking at thecommon emotion, and then I go, I
feel afraid, yes, it's true. Ifeel afraid, then I own it. Then
the story abates then I'veintegrated the emotion, then I
next time I start to thinkabout, well, I'm walking down
the street, whatever, or I feela bit afraid. I start to feel I
(43:33):
have a bit more choice about it.
Because I don't I don't feel sophysically pulled by it or
something.
Arwen Bardsley (43:41):
Yeah, triggered by it. Yeah. And when you say
that you're saying to yourself,I feel angry. Yes. It's true. I
feel angry. Is it important tobe saying that out loud, or
that's not necessary? It canjust be Yep. Okay.
Wendy Nash (44:00):
Just internally is fine. It's just, it's really
just its own, its sole purposeis for each person to integrate
the emotions that remain, Iguess, slightly alien to
oneself. That's what I wouldsay. And it's, it's there is
this, we don't want to say, ah Iam angry? We don't want to own
(44:22):
it. And that's actually what'sbeing enacted, because we're,
there's a part of the mind,which is saying you need to
attend to this. And there'sanother part of the mind, which
is, but I'm not like that. Onlyhorrible. People don't like
that. I'm a good person. And soit's sort of joining up those
two worlds together. I guessthat's that's the way that I
would put it.
Arwen Bardsley (44:41):
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. All right. Yes. And so youhave spoken a bit about you
know, that you can even do thesekinds of practices while you're
going for a walk or doingwhatever. Because the the thing
people always say is You know,I've already got, you know, a
list a mile long of things Ihave to do. And meditation is
(45:03):
just one other thing to fit in.
So I mean is that your key tiparound that is to try and bring
in some of those practices whileyou're just doing something
else.
Wendy Nash (45:15):
Yeah, so I'm a great believer that meditation
shouldn't take anything, anymore time out of your day, I
think people are. I mean, ifyou're going to meditation
center or something like that,and you're really doing it,
that's a different cohort, adifferent need, there's some
something else going on. And Ireally, I do think sitting in a
group is really beneficial. Butwith a pandemic, that's not
(45:37):
always possible. With kidsfamily commitments, it's just
not always possible. Andsometimes we too knackered to
go, you know, we don't yet havemeans it's at night, and we
don't want to be out and dark,we don't have a car, something
like that. So I definitely don'tthink that's the case there are
because of the pandemic, a lotof online groups now. So that's
(45:58):
always possible. But basically,there's a ton of meditation
practices, which give you asense of kind of coming back to
where you are in this moment. Sothings like as you walk towards
the car, just noticing what thewhat is happening in the feet.
(46:24):
That's one, you know, if you'rewearing high heels, what is it
like to kind of walk on highheels and what is happening in
the body in that experience,Sharon Salzberg is very well
known meditation teacher andloving kindness. She says, as
you touch the steering wheel, orthe key, or whatever it is, when
(46:45):
you're starting the car, sheprobably people don't have keys
anymore that they are becauseI've seen them, okay, I don't
have a car, but I've seen theirown cars, which don't have keys
anymore. And so as you, as yousit down and touch, just notice
the sensation of the steeringwheel on your hand, and the
(47:08):
muscles that you're using. Andno one is so busy, they can't
take three seconds to do that.
So that's another one. One of myfavorites, which I think is
really good for people who arecompletely frantic, and you've
got cleaning to do and you'vegot this to do and everything
else is around the house,there's a really good meditation
(47:30):
practice called leave no trace.
So if you make a cup of tea,instead of when you finish that
cup of tea, you just put it onthe sideboard, you wash it up,
you put it on the sideboard, youget the tea towels, you dry it
up, you put it in the cupboard.
And then you're not left with apile of dishes. And so that's a
(47:55):
really good one as an initial.
And what that does is it alsotrains your mind to go to here
into any resentment, why am Idoing this, why don't want to
clean up and I'm too busy. Andyou can hear all that. And then
it's like, I feel very resentfulyeah it's true I feel very
(48:15):
resentful. And that starts toease that. And then I started
with just doing the dishes likethat. And then I after brushing
the teeth wiping down the basin,going to the toilet, using you
know, just wiping downeverything after the shower,
wiping down the shower so thatit's clean, and then you don't
(48:35):
get the mold build up. And ifyou just do that, every time you
do something when it comes tothe weekend, or or, you know,
the house is always in a prettygood state of how it is. And
then you don't get to theweekend and think I've got now
got to spend two hours cleaningthe house with gritted teeth. I
(48:57):
am so grateful for my house.
Yeah, you know, it's most ofit's done. So that that's
another one which I find reallygood. I do think that you can if
you sit in bed, and just putyour phone on airplane mode, and
set a timer for 60 seconds, justto feel the sensations of the
(49:22):
breath. That's that. And theother thing that I would say is
also that when you when thosethoughts where all goes, you
know, and he said that she saidthat she said that he said and
start going, you know, and thenI walked down the street and did
(49:43):
that. It's actually in thismoment that those memories and
thoughts are arising so often. Ihad a client the other day who's
saying that? My meditationsthey're really I'm striving and
I'm really I'm remembering allthese fearful arguments. And I
(50:05):
was really afraid and seeing andit's like, are you in a time
where you're fighting a lot? Doyou feel afraid now? Do you feel
angry now? And he said, Yes. Soall those memories were just
coming, reminding him of earliertimes, when he felt like what he
felt now. And simply byacknowledging, I feel afraid, I
(50:27):
feel angry, I feel frustrated,that then stops all those past
memories kind of coming back. SoI hope I've answered the
question
Arwen Bardsley (50:37):
beautiful. And for people who do want to, you
know, sit down and have somemeditation time separate to
everything else. Firstly, howoften? And how long would you
recommend for someone starting?
And then secondly, do yourecommend particular apps
(50:59):
because I know there's 1,000,001Meditation apps out there? I
personally, I love InsightTimer. But yeah, I'd love to get
your take on just how ifsomebody does want to, you know,
have a have a set practice, howthey go about that to start
with?
Wendy Nash (51:17):
I think when you're starting, I think the apps are
really useful, because the mindis very crazy. And it takes a
while to get the physiology ofthe body just down, you know.
And I think if you can manage totry to do that every day, that's
great. And I always, alwaysthink it's really good to start
with the shortest meditationpossible. So just because it
(51:40):
takes so long to get into thehabit of it, you know, it's very
hard to, and I actually, firsttime I meditated, and this is
really common, I did it, I wentto a Buddhist center, and I did
meditation day. And then it wasanother three to five years
before I did it again, I justwasn't ready. So I definitely
(52:01):
don't think it's good to hurry.
I think Insight Timer is reallygood. It can be quite, there's a
lot going on on that one, so,that's the only thing I would
say is like, you kind of almostneed to know which teacher
you're going to go for in orderto, to choose that one. But
there are some really amazingteachers on that one. And some
(52:22):
teachers that I think are verywell regarded that would be
useful for your audience isKristin Neff, who's a lot about
self compassion. She does a loton self compassion. So I think
for your audience, which ispeople who are super busy, I
think that's her and expecting alot from themselves. That can be
she's really, really good. So Iwould recommend her.
Arwen Bardsley (52:45):
She's on Insight timer?
Wendy Nash (52:48):
Yeah, I believe so.
Arwen Bardsley (52:49):
Yeah. Okay.
Wendy Nash (52:50):
And if she's not, she's definitely around
Arwen Bardsley (52:52):
Just Google her.
Yeah.
Wendy Nash (52:54):
Yep. And that's Kristin with a K. The other one
is also headspace, is highlyrecommended. They're a little
it's a little bit expensive. ButI have I have a friend and he,
he did it. He did the course.
And then he said, Now what do Ido, I say go back to the
beginning and do it again. Andthen go do it again. And just
keep repeating. And he keptgoing with it for about three
(53:16):
years just doing repeat andrepeat and repeat. And he was
having a really bad time atwork. And he said it just
completely made him sane.
There's another one calledwaking up. But I think that's a
bit more Buddhist-y
Arwen Bardsley (53:35):
it is.
Wendy Nash (53:36):
And, and it's much more about enlightenment. So
it's good, really interestingtalk. So perhaps if you have,
you're in hospital, you've gotcancer or something like that.
That's actually a really goodone to go for. Yeah, so I think
they're definitely useful onesbut start small. Totally. And
(53:59):
the most important thing is todo it daily. Yeah,
Arwen Bardsley (54:01):
right. Okay, so that was gonna be my next
question is, you know, shouldyou be try? So are you saying,
you know, like, you're betteroff to do five minutes daily
than to do 15 minutes? A fewtimes a week?
Wendy Nash (54:14):
Yeah. And I would even say, even if you can just
find one minute. Yeah, don'teven bother getting up to five
minutes. Five minutes is a lotfor a beginner. One minute is
plenty. It's absolutely plenty.
I have I have a client and shewas at one minute. And then she
went on to then she's stuck itto for about a month. And, you
know, I've got a few clients andthey can just about make it to
(54:36):
four-five minutes. And they'vebeen doing it for maybe three
months. And I coached them everyweek or fortnight, or how to
navigate that process. It's abig if people can't manage to
meditate, you know, like rightoff the bat. That would be
completely normal.
Arwen Bardsley (54:54):
Yes, yeah. Yeah, it is a practice. So that means
we have to practise it. Okay.
All right. That's great. And doyou have meditations that people
can access?
Wendy Nash (55:10):
Not yet. I have been a bit slack about. I've got to
do them. But one of the things Iwant to do is to get the John
Makransky's because I thinkthere's so fantastic, but John
Makransky is on Insight Timeranyway, so you can get it
straight from the horse's mouth.
So he does them. No, I haven't.
There's so many people who doreally good meditations Yeah,
(55:32):
and I yeah, I'm qualified as ameditation teacher. And I do
leave them with some clients.
They're very tailored to thespecific person and need and,
and whatever. But generally, Ifind that I always encourage
people to find the one thatworks for them. Because
everybody, what works for me isloving kindness meditation, a
(55:53):
particular kind, that's notnecessarily going to be what's
gonna work for you.
Arwen Bardsley (55:59):
Yeah, that's so true. What works for me is yoga.
Nidra. Yeah, so we are alldifferent. So just before we
finish, Wendy, please do share,you know what, what you're what
exactly your services are thatpeople might be interested in,
following you up on and also howthey can do that where they can
Wendy Nash (56:19):
Thank you, I do want to say thank you very much for
find you.
being a really warm, kind host.
It's very lovely to be in thisinterview, it feels very
spacious. It's the first timeI've been in an interview where
I've done a few now, where I'vejust felt, oh, I can be really
spacious here. So I want toreally thank you for really
(56:41):
reflecting it in and making thatexperience possible.
Arwen Bardsley (56:48):
So thank you, that's a beautiful kindness that
I will reflect on for the next24 hours at least.
Wendy Nash (56:58):
So my business is called kindly Cut the crap,
Dot com. So it'sjust kindlycutthecrap.com
Arwen Bardsley (57:02):
love it There's no au. And that's
because I'm a very straight tothe point kind of person. And I
also like double entendre. So Ilike to have double meanings of
words and kindly means to bekind and it means please, so and
I'm. So I just feel like andit's a name that no one ever
(57:26):
forgets. So that's how I've gota brand new website, and the
contact box wasn't workingyesterday. So I do apologize.
People don't have thepossibility of using that. If
not, you can emailwendy@kindlycutthecrap.com that
part is working. And I also havea LinkedIn account so there you
(57:50):
are. I keep my social mediareally low.
And LinkedIn is Wendy Nash?
Wendy Nash (57:57):
There's a couple of Wendy Nash's, so don't get the
wrong one!
Arwen Bardsley (58:02):
Find the right one.
Wendy Nash (58:03):
Find the right one.
I'm actually in Queensland, Imust update my LinkedIn profile.
Is that because I've just movedobviously. But basically what I
do in terms of what whatservices do I provide, people
have, I want to learnmeditation, and then I just
coach them to navigate whatarises. So and and how to set up
a daily practice. That's what Ido. So I don't necessarily guide
(58:27):
meditation.
Arwen Bardsley (58:30):
Yeah, right.
Wendy Nash (58:30):
I help them navigate the challenges that arise.
Arwen Bardsley (58:34):
Okay. Yeah, sounds wonderful. Well, thank
you so much for your time,Wendy, and all your wisdom. I'm
really grateful that you wereable to give that to us today.
And it was really wonderful tomeet you.
Wendy Nash (58:51):
It's been delightful. Thank you so much,
Arwen.
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