After Hours

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
where are those plaster of paris paperweights

(00:11):
anyway i mean that's what i camedown here for in the first place
well that's not entirely true icame to see you but where are
the paperweights that's what iwant to see now what's the
matter i said i want to see aplaster of paris bagel and cream
cheese paperweight now cough itup

SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
right now

SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
yes right now

SPEAKER_01 (00:30):
They're in Kiki's bedroom.

SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
Get them.
Because as we sit here chatting,there are important papers
flying rampant around myapartment because I don't have
anything to hold them down with.

SPEAKER_05 (00:40):
Hello and welcome to 80s Movie Montage.
This is Derek.

SPEAKER_04 (00:43):
And this is Anna.

SPEAKER_05 (00:43):
And that was Griffin Dunn as Paul Hackett demanding
paperweights from RosannaArquette as Marcy in 1985's
After Hours.

SPEAKER_04 (00:54):
After Hours.

SPEAKER_05 (00:55):
After Hours.

SPEAKER_04 (01:14):
We're just going to do our little dive as we do into
the main players.
It's

SPEAKER_05 (01:18):
what we've done, what we had done for a very long
time.
And

SPEAKER_04 (01:22):
we will continue to do

SPEAKER_05 (01:23):
it.
And then we did somethingslightly different.
And now we're doing it again forthis episode.
Maybe not more of them.
Who knows?
We'll see.
But for right now, this is whatwe're doing.

SPEAKER_04 (01:33):
This is what we're doing.
All right.
Let's jump in.
So you mentioned 1985.
I did.
And...
Interesting.
Okay, so I did like a little bitof a dive in terms of the
writing on this.
The credited writer is JosephMinion.

SPEAKER_05 (01:51):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (01:53):
His first feature credit, because according to
like what I was researching,like this was originally written
as like a college project.

SPEAKER_05 (02:03):
Do you know what grade he got on it?

SPEAKER_04 (02:04):
I don't.

SPEAKER_05 (02:06):
He got an A.

SPEAKER_04 (02:07):
Did you actually read that?
Yes.
Okay.
All right.
Good job, Joseph.
And it's funny because I thinkbefore...
Well, you tell me.
Before you read that, while wewere watching it, you were
saying that it kind of feels...
And I don't think you meant thisas a slight.
I think this is very normal fora younger writer to kind of have

(02:33):
a story like this.
You're like, this does feellike...
a college student wrote this Idon't think you meant that in a
negative way per se but

SPEAKER_05 (02:39):
no I I think I I said something like this feels
like uh like the dialogue andthe the situations feel had like
a student film feel to them yeah

SPEAKER_04 (02:50):
and I actually have seen a lot of student films
where it is this kind of likeand we bring this up with Lisa
and Dustin like kind of thislike odyssey yeah type of story

SPEAKER_05 (03:01):
well it's not it just has a different feel than
like a like wide release you seeit in like all the platforms or
in theater there's a differentvibe or a different like feel to
the situations and the way thatthe characters talk and it just
had that kind of vibe to it

SPEAKER_04 (03:22):
yeah totally agree and among some of his other
credits i have all films for himvampires kiss motorama

SPEAKER_05 (03:31):
wait is it like is it just saying that vampires do
kiss Or is it like...

SPEAKER_04 (03:36):
It's possessive.
So like the vampire.
Sorry.

SPEAKER_05 (03:39):
Because that could be a very different movie.

SPEAKER_04 (03:44):
That's a great clarification.
Yes.
It's like possessive.
So it's like the vampire's kiss.
The is not part of the title,but like...

SPEAKER_05 (03:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (03:53):
I never thought about whether they do...
A kiss from a vampire.

SPEAKER_05 (03:55):
I guess they do.
Yeah.
It starts that way.

SPEAKER_04 (03:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (03:58):
Awesome.

SPEAKER_04 (03:59):
Motorama, On the Run, Trafficking, and The
Collection.
Okay.

UNKNOWN (04:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (04:04):
So...
Also reading this, and this isvery common, that sometimes the
director, oftentimes probablythe director, will do a little
polish.
They may not be credited for it,but they'll put their own little
spin on it.
And that's exactly what alsohappened.
Who was the

SPEAKER_05 (04:19):
director on this?

SPEAKER_04 (04:20):
Just some rando.
Yeah, that happens.
Martin Scorsese.

SPEAKER_05 (04:24):
Oh.

SPEAKER_04 (04:26):
So it has been a while since we've actually
covered a Scorsese film.
The last time and the firsttime.
So this is only the second time.
Yeah, I was going to say.
That we've covered.
Scorsese film was Raging Bull.

SPEAKER_05 (04:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (04:39):
So go check that one out.
That was, I believe, like reallyearly.
That might have even been thefirst episode of season two.
And yeah, again, a lot of thiscame up with Lisa and Dustin in
terms of, you know, I really doappreciate his work.
He, for me personally, is notnecessarily one of my top

(05:01):
directors.
That is not about me.
Obviously, the quality of hiswork, just the type of stories
that I tend to gravitate toward.
But I do love the opportunity toget to cover his work again,
especially something that, tome, feels very outside of what I
kind of think of when I think ofhis work.

SPEAKER_05 (05:23):
There's an intensity to a lot of what he makes.
where I may really enjoy themovie, but sometimes there are
varying degrees of beingrewatchable.
And we talk about that with thismovie later on.
And because of that intensity, Ifeel like sometimes I miss
things and then I watch themagain and I get more out of it.

(05:46):
But some of the movies are sointense.
I'm like, that was cool.
I'm probably not going to watchit again.
A

SPEAKER_04 (05:51):
lot of his films, I can't watch the ends because
they culminate in such ahorrible ending for a lot of the
characters, even if maybe thecharacters deserve those
endings.
And I was just like, yeah, Ican't do it.

SPEAKER_05 (06:07):
Cape Fear, I know is a remake, right?
Yeah.
But it's just, it'suncomfortable the whole movie.

SPEAKER_04 (06:13):
Yeah.
Or, like, you know, one of myabsolute favorite openings to
his films, like, I love theopening sequence of Goodfellas.
Oh, yeah.
With the young, I mean, it isnot the young Ray Liotta, but
the actor who plays the youngversion of the character.
Like, I love seeing that set upto the story.
And, but yeah, it just, a lot ofhis films end very...

(06:38):
Very darkly.
They do.
I

SPEAKER_05 (06:40):
mean, the other New York Scorsese movie that comes
to mind that I really enjoywould be the Gangs of New York
movie.
Right.
And ironically, I don't thinkthere's a single gang in After
Hours.
Sorry, I just got it back.
Got us back.
How do you like that?

SPEAKER_04 (06:59):
Good job.
Yeah, so we probably could justriff on how we feel about his
work for the entire episode.
Also, I

SPEAKER_05 (07:06):
apologize in advance because I always call him
Scorsese, and I know that it'ssupposed to be Scorsese.

SPEAKER_04 (07:11):
Ah, you know, Anna Anna people do.
Well, you feel a certain...
I do have a certain feelingabout

SPEAKER_01 (07:18):
it.
I don't know if that's the bestexample.

SPEAKER_04 (07:21):
So, I mean, there...
In fact, I was...
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.

(07:54):
I appreciate so much his– himwanting to bring more awareness
to general film history and howmuch time and effort and I
presume financial resources he'sput behind wanting people to
stay informed of cinema historyand preservation of film.
I just love when he

SPEAKER_05 (08:14):
roasts Marvel.

SPEAKER_04 (08:16):
Sure.
That too.
That too.
Although, you know what– There'senough room for everybody.
There should be.
That's kind of my generalthrough line.
It's cool if you like Marvel.
It's cool if you love...

SPEAKER_05 (08:32):
I think even Disney would agree that there's enough
room for everybody as long asit's all us.

SPEAKER_04 (08:38):
So is filmography.
Main streets, taxi driver...
Like I said, we covered RagingBull, for which he got a Best
Director.
And this is kind of fun.
Like, I do remember.
I'm getting ahead of myself.
But I do remember when hefinally, finally won and
watching that Oscar ceremony.
But his first Oscar nom for BestDirector was Raging Bull.

(08:58):
King of Comedy, which we coulddo.
Color of Money.
My guess is we'd probably dothat one first whenever he comes
up again.

SPEAKER_05 (09:06):
Have you ever seen The Hustler from start to
finish?
It is a kind of soul-crushingmovie.
Oh, yeah.
It's an interesting—you knowwhat?
That's what I want to make asequel of.
But there's so many characterswhere that makes sense, where
you'd want to

SPEAKER_04 (09:20):
see— Sure.
What happens to them down theroad decades later.
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't think I remembered this.
Maybe I put this down the lasttime we talked about him, that
he actually did direct.
He did a couple Michael Jacksonvideos, and Bad was one of them.

SPEAKER_05 (09:36):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (09:36):
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (09:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (09:37):
Kind of fun.

SPEAKER_05 (09:38):
It's very random to know that, like, Michael Jackson
bad music video directed byMartin Scorsese.

SPEAKER_04 (09:45):
Right?
I mean, he also does, like,high-profile commercials even to
this day.
Yes.
Yeah, he does.
So, you know, it's not above it.
He gets his next Best Directornomination for The Last
Temptation of Christ.
He gets, I mean, he, you know,like I mentioned previously, I'm
sure did a little work on thisscript and he's gone to other
Oscar noms for best.

(10:06):
I think it's usually bestadapted screenplay.
So he gets best adapted forGoodfellas and again gets his
next best best director Oscarnom.
He gets his next best adaptedscreenplay for The Age of
Innocence.
He does Casino.
That in particular, that's theone, right?
That's the one where

SPEAKER_05 (10:26):
Joe Pesci and his brother are brutally killed.
And I think Pesci is held whilehe has to watch his brother
beaten to death with a baseballbat and thrown into a grave in a
field.
Yep.
Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_04 (10:36):
That's it.
He gets another Best DirectorOscar nom for, you mentioned,
The Gangs of New York.

SPEAKER_05 (10:43):
That's one of my, it might be my favorite movie of
his.

SPEAKER_04 (10:47):
yeah that's very much up there for me as well i
remember going to the theaterthis is the next film coming up
going to the theater to watchthe aviator and oh yeah he gets
another best uh director oscarnom for that and i truly just
adored that film for the waythat like i think that film
encapsulates his love for cinema

SPEAKER_05 (11:09):
kate blanchett as katherine hepburn Pretty
amazing.
Amazing performance.

SPEAKER_04 (11:14):
Yeah, and I remember when the casting was put out for
that film, and I had nothingagainst her at all.
I just adore Katharine Hepburnso much that I didn't think
anybody could even touch, like,do that performance justice, and
she absolutely did.
In fact, I think she got anOscar for that role.

(11:35):
So...
She she was outstanding and itwas just so fun.
So that film is so the storylineis tragic because we're talking
about Howard Hughes and whatcame of him and that in its own
way.
Like, that's why it's so hard towatch the end of Scorsese films
because they're so sad.

SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
But

SPEAKER_04 (11:51):
even in their own way, even it has nothing to do
with mobsters and gettinggetting whacked.
But seeing that.
his portrayal of early Hollywoodand especially the way that he
uses color to indicate differentperiods in Hollywood history is
just like, oh, chef's kiss.
Love it.
So finally, finally, I mean,this is another film.

(12:13):
I just, I don't even know if Ican watch the beginning of it
because the whole thing start tofinish is just so dark.
The Departed.
The Departed is

SPEAKER_05 (12:21):
like, it doesn't hit me the same way that it hits
you.
Like I could probably watch it.
I mean, Jack Nicholson is...
Like awful.
And I mean that in the bestpossible way.

SPEAKER_04 (12:33):
Right.

SPEAKER_05 (12:34):
Because he's just he's such a loathsome character.

SPEAKER_04 (12:36):
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (12:38):
But that's a great movie.
And there are amazinginteractions between Alec
Baldwin and Mark Wahlberg on theon the.

SPEAKER_04 (12:45):
No, everybody, even though, look, I made it real
clear.
I don't.
I don't really love MarkWahlberg as an actor, but I do
think everybody was on the topof their game.
Of course, that speaks to thedirection of that film.
Yeah.
What

SPEAKER_05 (13:00):
better in this than him in The Happening where he's
just like, it's the grass.

SPEAKER_04 (13:06):
I mean, I remember watching that Oscar ceremony and
I felt so bad for...
That's why I'm like, I thinkthere's a little bit of...
there is a little bit ofknowledge ahead of time of who's
going to win what.
Because who comes out to presentScorsese with his Oscar?
It's Coppola, Spielberg, andLucas.

(13:28):
And I'm like, come on.
We know who's winning this Oscarif you three are coming out to
present it.
So it was like, oh my god,that's amazing.
But at the same time, I waslike, ah, I think you guys know
what's happening right now.
He directs Shutter Island.
He gets another best directorOscar nom as well as best

(13:49):
pitcher for Hugo he gets moremore Oscar noms on the way he
gets best director and againbest pitcher for the Wolf of
Wall Street he gets another bestdirector nom as well as best
pitcher for the Irishman andthen most recently yet again
another best director, Oscarnom, and best pitcher for

(14:09):
Killers of the Flower Moon.

SPEAKER_05 (14:10):
I'd like to nominate the Irishman for potentially the
worst use of generative AI in aperformance ever.

SPEAKER_04 (14:18):
Look, from the jump, every time they've tried to make
Robert De Niro...
The only time that his age, Ithink, was appropriately cast
was when he was the younger VitoCorleone in The Godfather Part
II.
That made sense.
But even in Goodfellas, I thinkhe's introduced as a
28-year-old.
I was like, no, no, he's not.

(14:38):
He's not a 28-year-old.

SPEAKER_05 (14:41):
But there's that scene in The Irishman where I
was just so...
I was confused throughout theentire movie of how old he was
supposed to be.
But then when he's kickingsomeone out in the street, I'm
like...
It looks like– and it's fine.
It just looks like an older guytrying to kick the shit out of
someone.
Just

SPEAKER_04 (14:58):
tell stories where he could be the age that he is.
It

SPEAKER_05 (15:01):
was all very strange.

SPEAKER_04 (15:02):
It was a little strange.
Okay.
Moving on to cinematography.
Yes.
We have talked– actually, veryrecently we've talked about
Michael Ballhaus who passed in2017.
What a career.
What a career this guy had.
We talked about him not too longago.

(15:23):
And honestly, there are otheropportunities for us to bring
him up.
So he was a German DP, startedout in German entertainment.
And some of his credits includethe marriage of Maria Braun.
Maybe we'll talk about him whenwe cover The Color of Money
because he was the DP on thatfilm.
I'm sure we will.
We talked about him.

(15:43):
So I'm not going inchronological order, but we
talked about him probably firstwhen we covered Broadcast News.

SPEAKER_05 (15:50):
OK.

SPEAKER_04 (15:50):
Yeah.
So he got and he got a BestCinematography Oscar nom for
that one.
He I mean, he worked withScorsese quite a bit.
He was the DP on The LastTemptation of Christ.
He did Dirty Rotten Scoundrels.
Oh, Mo.
Most recently, we have talkedabout him for Working Girl.
Okay.

(16:11):
That was just earlier this year.
We can talk about him again forthe fabulous Baker Boys.
Got another Oscar nom for thatone.
He was the DP on Goodfellas aswell as Postcards from the Edge.
What about Bob?
This one, I brought this up.
When we were talking aboutWorking Girl, I don't know why

(16:31):
they did this, but it used to becalled Bram Stoker's Dracula,
and now they're just calling itDracula per IMDb.

SPEAKER_05 (16:38):
That's interesting because I feel like the Keanu
Reeves Dracula, Gary OldmanDracula, the title was Bram
Stoker's Dracula.
Correct.
There are other Draculas thatare just Dracula or maybe
Dracula with various colons.
Sure.
In more descriptive terms.

(16:58):
But that one will always be forme.
I

SPEAKER_04 (17:00):
don't know why the change was made.
Something must have happenedwith like, I don't know,
copyright.
I don't know.
I have no idea.
But I'm always going to justcall it Bram Stoker's Dracula.
Yeah.
So there you go.
Which is interesting becausethat was directed by Coppola.
So this guy, he worked with likea lot of.
Big time directors.
He did shoot The Age ofInnocence.

(17:21):
He did Quiz Show, Outbreak, AirForce One, Primary Colors, The
Legend of Bagger Vance.
He got another Oscar nom, BestCinematography for The Gangs of
New York, Something's GottaGive, and then among some of his
final projects, The Departed.
Okay.
So, okay.
Moving on.
A lot of these...

(17:43):
Yeah, I'm going to say most ofthese people, very familiar
names.
Next up for music, we haveHoward Shore.
We have brought him up a numberof times.
So some in the most unexpectedways.

SPEAKER_05 (17:56):
Yes, he pops up when you least expect him to.

SPEAKER_04 (18:01):
Yeah.
So some of the credits, I guessthat often is the case with
composers.
I have all films.
Worked a lot with Cronenberg.
He did the music for, well, hedid the music for The Brood,
Scanners, Videodrome, Fire withFire.
Yes.

(18:22):
Was that the first time?

SPEAKER_05 (18:23):
That was the first surprise where his name popped
up and I'm like, wait.
Really?
That's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 (18:29):
Yeah,

SPEAKER_05 (18:30):
yeah.
And the music was something thatstood out in that movie.

SPEAKER_04 (18:34):
Oh, 100%.
I mean, that movie reallysurprised me.

SPEAKER_05 (18:39):
Yes, it did.

SPEAKER_04 (18:40):
I really enjoyed that film.
It's

SPEAKER_05 (18:44):
like, what if an exaggerated teen romance movie
turned into Mission Impossible?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (18:52):
No, that's a very accurate way to put it.
So he also did The Fly, right?

SPEAKER_05 (18:58):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (18:59):
So, I mean, this guy goes all over the place, swings
all over the place genre-wise.
He did Big.
So, I mean, my goodness, Firewith Fire, like you said, is
kind of like a teen romanceturned action thriller.
He does horror.
He does big-hearted comedy.
So we've covered all three ofthose films.

(19:23):
He did Dead Ringers, She-Devil.
The Silence of the Lambs.
Talk about a swing.
Single White Female, Mrs.
Doubtfire, Philadelphia, EdWood, Seven.
That's a film I don't think Ican watch again either.

SPEAKER_05 (19:36):
Seven?
Yeah.
Seven, like the whole damn movieis kind of tough to watch.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (19:42):
Start to finish.
I don't

SPEAKER_05 (19:43):
even care about what's in the box.
I know what's in the box at thispoint.
And I don't care because I'm noteven making it to that point.

SPEAKER_04 (19:49):
Yeah.
It's, again, a great film.
I remember my first screening ofit and being kind of blown away.
But tough film to get through.
It is.
It

SPEAKER_05 (20:00):
is,

SPEAKER_04 (20:00):
yeah.
He also, then he, I mean, again,these like swings from genre to
genre.
He does that thing you do, TheGame.
Great film.

SPEAKER_05 (20:09):
It

SPEAKER_04 (20:09):
is.
Dogma.
I love that

SPEAKER_05 (20:11):
movie.
Yeah.
I think it was just re-releasedon disc because Kevin Smith got
the rights back from theWeinstein Company.
Which is just wild to thinkabout.
Yeah.
Not having the rights to yourown film.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (20:24):
Finally, we get into his Oscar era.
Okay.
He wins Best Original Score forThe Lord of the Rings Fellowship
of the Wing.
Ring?
The Wing.
Fellowship of the Ring.
He also does The Lord of theRings Two Towers.
He scores Gings of New York.

(20:44):
He wins again for The Lord ofthe Rings The Return of the
King.

SPEAKER_05 (20:49):
That won like everything.
Return of the King.
Yeah, it did.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (20:53):
He won Best He did score the Aviator, A History of
Violence.
He does reteam with Scorseseagain for The Departed.
He worked with Viggo Mortensen alot.
He sure did.

SPEAKER_05 (21:06):
Probably not really directly, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (21:09):
Who knows?
Maybe they became friends.
We don't know.

SPEAKER_05 (21:11):
Anything's possible.

SPEAKER_04 (21:13):
He gets another Best Original Score nomination for
Hugo.
He does all the Hobbit films,which could have just been one
movie.
All of

SPEAKER_05 (21:21):
the Hobbit films, which should have been one
Hobbit film.

SPEAKER_04 (21:23):
One Hobbit film.
He does Spotlight and Pale BlueEye.

SPEAKER_05 (21:26):
Oh, he did another Viggo Mortensen one called
Eastern Promises, which wasinteresting when it came out
because it looked like it wasgoing to be similar to A History
of Violence, but it could nothave been more different.

SPEAKER_04 (21:36):
Okay.
Yeah.
Moving on to film editing.
She came up quite a bit when wewere talking with Lisa and
Dustin Thelma Schoonmaker.
So this woman, a powerhouse inher own right as an editor,
longtime collaborator withScorsese.
And the reason why we do thispodcast the way that we do is

(22:01):
because– Look, there are so manyother people we could talk about
with any film in terms of whatthey contribute to it.
But I try to bring up some ofthe other main players outside
of just the actors and directorbecause...

SPEAKER_05 (22:17):
We all know about them just fine.

SPEAKER_04 (22:20):
We all know about them.
And honestly, it really, if Imay, irks me.
quite a bit we're like oh my godthe director's vision with
cinematography or the director'svision with the editing of
course there's collaboration andmaybe sometimes the director
does have a very heavy hand inthose aspects of making a film
but I feel like it does a realdisservice to the other people

(22:43):
who actually are in those rolesand contribute their talent and
expertise to those parts of thecraft

SPEAKER_05 (22:51):
it's tough because like I I have a an overwhelming

(23:14):
task that they have to do.
And they get very

SPEAKER_04 (23:17):
little.
And also depending on thedirector.

SPEAKER_05 (23:18):
Yeah, and they get very little recognition.
And I think that's in partbecause people just have no real
understanding of what goes intoit.

SPEAKER_04 (23:27):
Yeah, no, I would agree with that.
I mean, I think a lot of people,and I get it, you know, Dustin
even said it's the invisiblecraft if you're doing it well.

SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (23:35):
And that's why a lot of people don't think of the
editor or really the other,again, main players in a film.

SPEAKER_05 (23:41):
I mean, this editor, she must be a fucking magician
because she did work on TheIrishman.

SPEAKER_04 (23:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (23:48):
She had to make it, imagine how much worse it would
have been.

SPEAKER_04 (23:50):
Yeah.
And I mean, again, like somefilmmakers, you know, like
Hitchcock was notorious fordoing such astute work on like
the storyboards having a veryclear vision that there wasn't a
lot of swaying from the way hewanted a film to look from from
so they

SPEAKER_05 (24:06):
would kind of follow those like yeah blueprints or
instructions

SPEAKER_04 (24:10):
yeah okay he knew exactly what he wanted a film to
look like shot to shot and otherfilmmakers like I know Clint
Eastwood is I don't know if I'dsay infamous but I think he's
kind of like a to to take guylike he's kind of like okay got
it and then you have otherfilmmakers um who were or are
notorious for shot after shotafter shot you know where like

(24:33):
yes that that means the editoris going through so much footage
to find try to find and puttogether the story

SPEAKER_05 (24:40):
a funny story related to that but not related
to this movie was i realizedrecently that the gary oldman
moment in um oh what was what isthat uh with natalie portman

SPEAKER_04 (24:54):
Gary Oldman and Natalie Portman.

SPEAKER_05 (24:56):
Where she's just a kid.
Oh,

SPEAKER_04 (24:59):
the professional?

SPEAKER_05 (24:59):
Yes.
The moment when he sayseveryone, when he screams it,
that was something where theywere shooting the scene over and
over again.
And someone asked him, like, goget everyone.
And his cop.
associate says who and he justlike screams at this like over
the top exaggerated everyone hedid that as a joke because he
was just doing so many takes heeven told the sound guy like hey

(25:21):
i'm gonna be really loud thistime and then the director was
like yeah i like that one let'sput it in

SPEAKER_04 (25:26):
oh yeah sometimes you have

SPEAKER_05 (25:28):
yeah so many that he's like no this one's good

SPEAKER_04 (25:31):
well getting back to felma

SPEAKER_05 (25:32):
yeah

SPEAKER_04 (25:34):
uh so What a career she has had.
We'll go through, I mean, somany Oscar nominations and wins.
She gets her first editing Oscarnom for Woodstock.
She, still very early in hercareer, she wins for Raging
Bull.
She cuts The King of Comedy, aswell as The Color of Money, as
well as The Last Temptation ofChrist.

(25:55):
So you're seeing- So most ofScorsese's- Yeah, yeah, most of
his work.
She gets another Oscar nom forGoodfellas.
She cuts The Age of Innocence-As well as Casino.
She gets her next Oscar nom forThe Gangs of New York.
She gets back-to-back wins.
She wins for The Aviator and shewins for The Departed.

(26:17):
Wow.
She cuts Shutter Island.
She gets another nom for Hugo.
She cuts The Wolf of WallStreet.
And then her last two as of nowOscar nominations were for The
Irishman and Killers of theFlower Moon.
I gotta say though and I youknow I went a little hard and I
mean we don't even cover thesemovies for the for this podcast

(26:39):
but I know I've brought up likeOppenheimer which yeah great
film I feel like between Nolanand Scorsese though maybe maybe
a little little moreconservative in terms of the
cuts of your film ultimately notevery film needs to be a
three-hour film so I'm justgonna leave it at that not to

(27:00):
take away from anybody'saccomplishments here.
Oppenheimer,

SPEAKER_05 (27:04):
I mean, it did obviously very well.
It won Best Picture, right?

SPEAKER_02 (27:10):
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (27:11):
Yeah.
I mean, and I think that'sdeserved, but the opening of it,
because it was such a longmovie, the opening felt
particularly challenging interms of trying to keep up with
where things were going and whatI'm trying to follow.
It was certainly no tenet.

SPEAKER_04 (27:30):
it's a fabulous it's a fabulous film all these films
are but at the same time youknow I think that maybe Nolan
and Scorsese have both come to Imean and Nolan much earlier in
his career honestly he's muchyounger but they could benefit

(27:53):
maybe again from just a littlebit

SPEAKER_05 (27:56):
movies generally are like a little bit longer runtime
than than they used to be i feellike there is like a runtime
creep coming up on us and i feeli feel in my bones that a movie
that's called the odyssey isprobably not going to have a
short yeah that might be mightmight have an intermission i

(28:22):
don't know

SPEAKER_04 (28:24):
intermissions.
You know what?
Bring back an intermission andI'm down for a three hour movie.

SPEAKER_05 (28:29):
It's so difficult just to get everyone in there to
begin with.
Can you imagine everyone in

SPEAKER_04 (28:34):
like an

SPEAKER_05 (28:36):
AMC getting out?
It would be a mess.

SPEAKER_04 (28:39):
Alright.
Stars of this movie.
Griffin Dunn.
So he plays Paul Hackett.
And real quick, I just wanted tosay this kind of fun little
tidbit.
He also also has an Oscarnomination.
It's for Best Short Film LiveAction.
That was called The Duke ofGroove.
Cool.
Cool.
So, yes, he is.

(29:01):
The person, the character, Ishould say, that leads and
grounds this film, so to speak,it is.
was very fun to see him againbecause we have not seen him
since we did American Werewolfin London.
Man, he was so great in thatfilm.
Love that film so much.

SPEAKER_05 (29:21):
Very obvious reference to that movie when
he's trying to get on a subwayin After Hours and he hops the
turnstile, the cop gets him toleave, and the cop kind of
mutters as he's running away,must be a full moon tonight.

SPEAKER_04 (29:34):
That was a great catch.
That was a great catch on yourend.

SPEAKER_05 (29:38):
I'm glad they did that.
That was fun.

UNKNOWN (29:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (29:40):
And it's interesting because this film is just four
years past American Werewolf inLondon.
He looks much older.
I mean, maybe it was just theway that they styled him to look
like a college student inWerewolf.
There's a lot

SPEAKER_05 (29:53):
going on in that with like, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (29:55):
Yeah.
And then he's mostly dead androtting for most of the film.
That's

SPEAKER_05 (30:00):
what

SPEAKER_04 (30:01):
I meant, yeah.
But he does look much older inthis movie to me.
And yeah, I mean, I know thathe...
Look, he's he's actually I mean,I have the filmography to show.
He has, of course, done a tonmore acting.
I know he's done a lot behindthe scenes.
Like he has also forged a careerfor himself as a director.

(30:21):
So he's he's not in front of thecamera a ton.
It would have been interestingto see more like he is the star
of this film.
And it's a Scorsese film.
So it's interesting that itdidn't necessarily translate
into this kicking off a morehigh-profile acting career for

(30:42):
him, if I may say.

SPEAKER_05 (30:44):
Well, I mean, we talk a little bit about the
commercial success of AfterHours.
And although his performance wasincredible in this movie, the
fact that it didn't– Yeah,that's

SPEAKER_04 (31:05):
a really good point.
My Girl, Straight Talk, Naked inNew York, Quiz Show, 40 Days and

(31:28):
40 Nights.
He is on the TV series Trust Me.
He was in the film Dallas BuyersClub.

SPEAKER_05 (31:34):
Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 (31:35):
Okay.
He also does the TV series Houseof Lies, the film Fugly!
Exclamation point.
All

SPEAKER_01 (31:43):
right.

SPEAKER_04 (31:43):
He does the show I Love Dick.
Who was he in Oceans 8?
We went to that movie.
I don't remember who he was inthat.
Not sure.
He was in The French Dispatch,more TV work, Goliath, This Is
Us.
And most recently, we saw him inOnly Murders in the Building.

(32:04):
That's right.

SPEAKER_05 (32:04):
He

SPEAKER_04 (32:04):
was really good in that.
He was really good in that.
Yeah.
I actually wish we had seen moreof that character in that season
of the show.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Liked that a lot.
And then he's just done a ton oflike, besides these longer
stints on different shows, he'sdone a lot of like one-offs,
two-offs on different shows.
series yeah okay moving on toRosanna Arquette so she plays
Marcy she is I guess you wouldmaybe say the love interest in

(32:30):
this film for him initially atleast

SPEAKER_05 (32:33):
yeah yeah she I mean she gets the ball rolling

SPEAKER_04 (32:37):
she gets the ball rolling that's a great way to
put it and we have covered heras well although it's been a
minute uh Still very muchworking to this day.
And she has, I have more filmsfor her than TV, but her very
first credit was a TV moviecalled Having Babies 2.

SPEAKER_05 (33:02):
Oh,

SPEAKER_04 (33:02):
she just went straight to the sequel?
As in like part two.

SPEAKER_05 (33:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (33:04):
Yeah.
Okay.
So she's in that.
She was in the film MoreAmerican Graffiti.
Gorp.
Wait, what?
Yeah, Gorp.
Gorp?
Not the world according to Garp.
Gorp.
But just Gorp.
Okay.
All right.
She was in a 1985 film calledThe Aviator.
So that was kind of fun to comeacross.
We covered her.

(33:24):
when we did Desperately SeekingSusan with Sarah.
And we keep saying we're goingto do this film at some point.
She was in Silverado.
Maybe next year.
Maybe next year.
Flight of the Intruder.
Though it's a small role, she'svery memorable in Pulp Fiction.

SPEAKER_05 (33:42):
Yeah, it's almost like what if Marcy doesn't,
sorry, spoilers, doesn't die inAfter Hours?
That would

SPEAKER_04 (33:49):
be her.
God, that's a great...
connection there i do feel likethat could be marcy yeah i
wonder what her character's nameis in pulp fiction uh i can
almost see tarantino calling hermarcy like i almost could anyway
um so she's in buffalo 66 hell'skitchen the movie not the tv

(34:10):
she's not she's not she's not anaspiring chef

SPEAKER_05 (34:13):
her name in a pulp fiction by the way was jody ah
darn

SPEAKER_04 (34:16):
yeah All right.
She was in The Little NineYards, Kids in America.
And then here we go.
So much TV work.
She was on the show The L Word,What About Brian, Ray Donovan,
Sideswiped, a couple more films,Kill Your Friends.
Okay.
Yeah.
Here's, okay, how am I going tosay it?

(34:36):
Here's Yanni.
Is that just how it is?
Here's Yanni.
Exclamation point.
And lots of TV appearances aswell.

SPEAKER_05 (34:46):
She's in what I think is my least favorite title
for a movie of all time, Asthma.

UNKNOWN (34:51):
Asthma!

SPEAKER_05 (34:53):
Who could forget 2014's Asthma?

SPEAKER_04 (34:56):
How could you?
How could you?
So now in terms of...
We're going a little out oforder here.
in terms of who Paul comesacross.

SPEAKER_05 (35:10):
I think that's fair because the cast...
Yeah, because if we just wentinto the order on IMDb, I think
it's fair that we deviate fromthat a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 (35:21):
Yeah, I sometimes make up my own rules in terms of
who we cover in what order,but...
Who do

SPEAKER_05 (35:30):
you got next, Linda?
I have

SPEAKER_04 (35:32):
June.
Okay.
Played by Verna Bloom.
So she's the older woman.
Ah, she's

SPEAKER_05 (35:38):
at the end.
She's at the very end.
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (35:40):
Yes.
So she has passed.
She passed in 2019.
Such an interesting character.
I mean, like, look, all thesecharacters are interesting in
this film.
She...
Is the woman so for people whomay not know this film like
closely, she is the older womanat the very end where Paul goes

(36:01):
like he gets an invitation, soto speak, to come back to this
bar that he was at earlier.

SPEAKER_01 (36:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (36:06):
And when he comes in, nobody is there.
It's kind of interesting, again,very dreamlike quality because
he gets this invitation to someevent that's happening at the
bar, but then nobody's there.
Except for June.
And the bartender says, like,oh, slow night.

SPEAKER_05 (36:22):
Yeah, he doesn't really have a great answer for
why.
No.
No, he

SPEAKER_04 (36:27):
doesn't.
And then when...
It

SPEAKER_05 (36:29):
is the same bar that he's at.
Yes.
It's like the Mohawk thing.
Where Kiki was.
Bad Brain.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (36:34):
And...
And he asks about the woman inthe corner and he's like, oh,
she's just always here.
Like, really dismissive almost.
Because she lives

SPEAKER_05 (36:41):
underneath the place.

SPEAKER_04 (36:42):
She does.
She does.
We don't know that yet, though.
So it kind of comes across, atleast to me, as like a little
bit of a dig that this woman'sjust always hanging out there
and she doesn't really engagewith anybody.
Yeah.
Paul does engage with her andthey dance a little bit.
And it's just a reallyinteresting interaction.

(37:03):
And then she gets a little scarybecause when they two go
downstairs and she initially istrying to help him escape from
the mob who thinks that he'sthis burglar.
She starts, you know, plasteringhim and then she doesn't let him
out.
And she keeps saying, no, weneed to make sure you're safe,

SPEAKER_05 (37:18):
which is honestly even scarier.
And then she like covers upwhere his mouth would be.
Yes.
That's what I'm like, panic.

SPEAKER_04 (37:25):
Panic.
Yes.
So as far as her career, I haveall films.
Although she did do a lot of TVwork in terms of, again,
one-offs and two-offs.
But we have medium cool.
So I believe she's, would it bethe Chancellor's Wife in
National Lampoon's Animal House?

SPEAKER_05 (37:44):
That's my guess.

SPEAKER_04 (37:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (37:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (37:46):
She was also in The Journey of Nandi Gyan.
And she also was in The LastTemptation of Christ.
So she re-teams.
Yeah.
She

SPEAKER_05 (37:54):
was Mary, Mother of Jesus.
So-

SPEAKER_04 (37:55):
she was jesus's mom yeah there you go yeah uh okay
so moving on to do i have themyeah i should just talk about
them together i

SPEAKER_05 (38:08):
think so

SPEAKER_04 (38:08):
but cheech and chong um so tommy chong and this is
gonna be hard because i havethem in several places and
cheech marin so they playrespectively pepe and and neil
so these are the guys whoactually are the burglars who
are going through thisneighborhood what did they say

(38:30):
um the number like it's not allin one night it's but they have
been like hitting

SPEAKER_05 (38:35):
places

SPEAKER_04 (38:36):
yeah they've been just hitting a lot of places in
a very short time frame notreally that smart to be honest
yeah uh but Obviously, they arevery well-known and a very
different part of theentertainment industry with
their comedies.
They pair up very frequently.
So first I'll go through TommyChong's filmography, Up in

(38:57):
Smoke.

SPEAKER_05 (38:58):
Very well-known.
I really made a mistake watchingthat shortly after having a
surgery where they had to cutinto my abdomen because I was
trying to not laugh

SPEAKER_04 (39:09):
and

SPEAKER_05 (39:09):
yet laughing a lot.

SPEAKER_04 (39:10):
Sure.
Yeah.
We have Cheech and Chong's nextmovie, Still Smokin'.
So there's...
We can cover

SPEAKER_05 (39:17):
that one.

SPEAKER_04 (39:18):
Yeah, there's a little bit of a through line.

SPEAKER_05 (39:21):
I love his...
He's casting Up in Smoke as justman.
Oh, really?
Because every single time Cheechtalks to him, he's just like,
hey, man.

SPEAKER_04 (39:28):
Oh, sure.
He was in National LampoonSenior Trip, Half Baked.
More recently, I think it'salready been canceled, though,
he was on That 90s Show.

SPEAKER_01 (39:40):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 (39:40):
And lots of TV appearances.
And then as far as Cheech Marin,actually, he's, I think– how do
I want to put this?
Like, more so moved himself intothe acting world.
Yeah.
He has a little bit more of anextensive filmography, again,
paired up with– tommy chong muchearlier in their career so he

(40:05):
too isn't up in smoke he also ofcourse is in cheech and chong's
next movie uh still smoking youwere talking about this film
last night born in east la i

SPEAKER_05 (40:16):
don't yeah i i go back and forth on whether it
would be a good idea to cover itbecause it it will probably be
like funny and yet incrediblydepressing seeing what
transpires.
I know that there's a lot ofstuff that has not aged well

(40:37):
just in other respects of themovie, but it is, yeah, I did
laugh a lot when I first sawthat movie.

SPEAKER_04 (40:45):
He was in Ghostbusters 2, the TV series
The Golden Palace, From DuskTill Dawn, Tin Cup.
This is so fun to me that he is,I think he's maybe the grandpa
in Spy Kids, maybe?
Yeah.
Okay.

(41:27):
more voice work for the TV showPrimos and just a ton of general
TV work, both for voice and justin front of the camera as well.

SPEAKER_05 (41:37):
I'm so sorry.
Did you did you mentionDesperado?

SPEAKER_04 (41:39):
Oh, my gosh, I didn't.
I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05 (41:41):
That's OK.
I always find that interestingbecause that was like this big
like Hollywood hit that was thesequel to El Mariachi.

SPEAKER_04 (41:48):
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (41:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (41:50):
Yeah.
OK, moving on to Kiki.
So Kiki is Marcy's roommate, Iguess.
Although they do...
I don't know.
They have a weird relationship.
Everybody has a weirdrelationship in this film.
It's

SPEAKER_05 (42:04):
weird.
There's a lot of weird stuff.
But I think we can roll withthat, them being roommates.
Sure.

SPEAKER_04 (42:09):
And played by Linda Fiorentino.
And she definitely has a type ofcharacter that she plays in a
lot of her films.
She is definitely kind of a...
maybe rough around the edges,tough, capable, maybe aloof type

(42:31):
of character.
She's

SPEAKER_05 (42:32):
often naked.

SPEAKER_04 (42:33):
Yes, that too.

SPEAKER_05 (42:35):
She is in this.

SPEAKER_04 (42:36):
She is in this.
And I think perhaps she might beretired from acting because her
last credit's 2009.
But some films that at the timethat they came out were...
huge successes and maybe eveninfamous i will say in this
instance um not vision visionquest but she is in that and we

(43:01):
could cover that but namely i'mtalking about both the last
seduction and jade

SPEAKER_05 (43:05):
yeah those the i've never seen either of those and
yet i'm

SPEAKER_04 (43:10):
aware of them oh they're I mean, they were very
much of their time.
I mean, the early 90s.
Yeah.
A ton of sexual thrillers.
Yeah.
People.
Erotic thrillers.

SPEAKER_05 (43:20):
It was a whole thing.
It

SPEAKER_04 (43:22):
was a whole thing.
And we can't do justice to it inthis podcast, but I do highly
recommend listening to You MustRemember This because the host
of that podcast.
podcast series.
She did a whole season?
A two-part season.
Wow.
She did the first part of theseason on 80s erotic thrillers,
and then she does move into the90s and covers both these films.

(43:46):
So definitely check that out ifthat's a part of cinema that
you'd like to learn more about.

SPEAKER_05 (43:52):
I'm half surprised there wasn't a movie at some
point just called Fear Boner.
Just cut right to the chase.

SPEAKER_04 (44:00):
So she's in those.
She is in Men in Black.
And you just mentioned it aminute ago.
She is in Dogma.

SPEAKER_05 (44:09):
Yeah, she's great in that.
She's almost in, it's almost asimilar role, I think.
I haven't seen it in a reallylong time, to the Da Vinci Code.

SPEAKER_04 (44:18):
Oh.
Where she's

SPEAKER_05 (44:19):
like an heir.

SPEAKER_04 (44:20):
Yeah, okay.
And then that last credit that Iwas mentioning from 2009 is a
video called Once More WithFeeling.
Okay.
Okay.
It breaks my heart to have tosay this, but we're covering now
Terry Garr, who plays Julie, andshe just passed in 2024.
Man, I loved her.

(44:40):
She was fantastic.
And...
I don't know how many more timeswe're going to get to talk about
her for at least this podcast.
But she had a great career, Ithink, in some regards.
It was cut a little shortbecause, to my recollection, she
did have– I believe it wasParkinson's?

(45:01):
No, multiple sclerosis, I think,which– had an impact on her
ability to continue with thiscareer.
But she started with tons of TVwork.
And then very early in her filmcareer, she was in The
Conversation.
I think a lot of people know herfrom Young Frankenstein.
Yeah.
She was in Oh God.

(45:21):
She, you know, I love her, butboy, do they make her an
irritable character in CloseEncounters of the Third Kind.

SPEAKER_05 (45:28):
They really do.
And it feels very intentional.

SPEAKER_04 (45:31):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (45:32):
Because you have to...
Have to feel a certain way.
You have to root for him.
Yes.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (45:37):
So she kind of comes across as a little bit of a
baddie.
But if you look at itobjectively, she's seeing her
husband go crazy seemingly.
He's like going off the deep endand she's just trying to keep
her family together.

SPEAKER_05 (45:51):
Yeah.
Trying to have dinner and he'sjust playing with mashed
potatoes for an hour.

SPEAKER_04 (45:54):
Yeah.
But she does come across as likevery shrill in that film.

SPEAKER_05 (45:59):
Well, that whole...
Like the kids.

SPEAKER_04 (46:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (46:01):
You're like, I kind of want them to get abducted.
Do I want that for the aliens?
I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 (46:07):
She was an Oscar-nominated actress.
She got Best Supporting, and sheis absolutely fantastic in
Tootsie.

SPEAKER_05 (46:14):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (46:14):
She is so good in that film.
She is in The Sting, too.
We did cover Tootsie, so gocheck out that episode.
We also did Mr.
Mom and love, love, love, loveher in that.
So go check that one out aswell.
She does more TV work.
She was on the TV series Goodand Evil, as well as Good

(46:35):
Advice, as well as Women of theHouse.
I don't remember her in this,but she was in Dumb and Dumber.

SPEAKER_05 (46:41):
Oh, really?
I don't remember that either.

SPEAKER_04 (46:43):
As well as the film Michael.
I do remember she was so lovelyfor her short little stint in
Friends as Phoebe's birthmother.

UNKNOWN (46:54):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 (46:55):
Boy, did she knock it out of the– I said that the
last time we talked about her.
But the way that she is able tomimic Phoebe's just like
physical– Physicality, I shouldsay, and mannerisms.
In a

SPEAKER_05 (47:09):
way where you feel like it's Phoebe who inherited
those from

SPEAKER_04 (47:11):
her.
Yes.
Yeah.
Exactly.
She was in the film Dick, andshe also did voice work.
She voiced for the TV seriesBatman Beyond.
And we just watched this, Ithink, for the first time over
the holidays.
She's uncredited, but she is inthe film Unaccompanied Minors.

SPEAKER_05 (47:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was kind of a surprise.
She's in another movie, at leastone other movie, with Richard
Dreyfuss, Let It Ride, from 89,that we may cover okay

SPEAKER_04 (47:38):
wow so she reteams with him yeah interesting okay
so now this is that too he haspassed on john hurd tom

SPEAKER_05 (47:45):
the bartender

SPEAKER_04 (47:46):
tom the bartender so heard he passed away in 2017 um
had a great career very notablefor a couple other films that he
had a lot of range um i doremember um When I was in
school, they brought in the TVwith the VHS recorder slash

(48:09):
player, and they had us watchThe Scarlet Letter that he was
part of, the TV miniseries.
He was Dimmesdale, the priest,or no, I should say pastor, who
had the affair with HesterPrynne.
So I think that was my firstintroduction to him, maybe.
Amazing.
So that was him.

(48:30):
He I know got a lot of acclaimfor his role in the film
Cutter's Way.
We could do that.
He also was in the MilagroBeanfield War, The Seventh Sign.
He is in Big, so we covered himfor that.
He's kind of a dick in

SPEAKER_05 (48:46):
Big.
He is, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (48:48):
He was in Beaches.
So look, I would say probably,would it be fair to say that
probably 80 to 90% of peoplethink of him as the dad in Home
Alone?

SPEAKER_05 (49:01):
Uh, maybe possibly, possibly.
I mean, yeah, there's probablylike a correlation between
people think he's the Dick frombig and also Think he's the dad
from Home Alone.
They're

SPEAKER_04 (49:13):
both right.
And here's what's so wild.
Both parents from Home Alone arein this movie.

SPEAKER_05 (49:18):
Oh, shit.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (49:20):
Yeah.
So it's kind of fun.
They don't ever interact, butthey're both in this movie.
So he is Kevin's dad, and hedoes return for Home Alone 2,
Lost in New York.
He was in Awakenings, RadioFlyer, The Pelican Brief, O,
which is...
Othello?
Yes, correct.
And also did some TV work.
He was on The Sopranos, PrisonBreak, and he was in the

(49:43):
original Sharknado.

SPEAKER_05 (49:44):
Amazing.

SPEAKER_04 (49:45):
Amazing.
All right, moving on to Kevin'smom, also known as Gail in this
film, also known as CatherineO'Hara.
So this was a big surprise.
I mean, I guess I did kind oflook over the cast, but when I
saw her come on screen, I waslike, oh, yeah, holy shit.
So she is...
The third slash fourth womanthat Paul, if you want to count

(50:09):
Kiki, that Paul encounters overthe course of his adventures, as
I like to say, in this film.
And love her so much.
She is still very much workingto this day.
I mean, she's done so much workthat people just absolutely

(50:30):
adore.
Yeah.
amazing comedic actress shestarted out uh in tv she did
satv as well as satv network shewas in heartburn the first time
that we covered her um andhonestly i'm trying to think of
what else we could cover for imean we could do heartburn but
the first time we talked abouther was for beetlejuice yeah so

(50:53):
go check that one out and thenwas it just last year we still
haven't watched it we need towatch beetlejuice beetlejuice

SPEAKER_05 (50:58):
it's crazy we haven't seen that yet yeah why
haven't we

SPEAKER_04 (51:01):
Don't know.
But we will.
She was in Dick Tracy.
As mentioned, she's Kevin's momin Home Alone.
And she comes back from HomeAlone 2 Lost in New York as
well.
We adore her as the voice ofSally in The Nightmare Before
Christmas.
So she is in that.
She has had a longstandingcollaboration with Christopher

(51:25):
Guest and all of hismockumentaries.
So she is in Waiting forGuffman.
She probably has her most highprofile performance of his films
in Best in Show.
Is my guess.

SPEAKER_05 (51:37):
Her character in After Hours felt like a
character from one of thosemovies.

SPEAKER_04 (51:42):
100%.
Yeah.
So she also does A Mighty Wind.
More TV work.
She was in Six Feet Under.
Glenn Martin DDS.
Don't know that.
She, again, another guest filmfor your consideration.
She has done voice work for theTV series Skylanders Academy.

(52:05):
Most recently and probably mostnotable, she is Moira in
Schitt's Creek.
Oh, yeah, that's right.
So she was on that.
She voiced for the filmElemental.
And then right now, well, Imean, I think they unloaded all
the episodes for season one.
She is on the TV series TheStudio.

SPEAKER_05 (52:25):
Yeah, so is Mr.
Scorsese.

SPEAKER_04 (52:27):
Yeah, you're right.
And it was kind of funny becausewhen Dustin was talking about
the funding getting pulledinitially for The Last
Septuagint of Christ, it made methink of that storyline.

SPEAKER_05 (52:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (52:37):
So, okay, film synopsis.

SPEAKER_05 (52:40):
Oh, what could it possibly even be?

SPEAKER_04 (52:42):
Ordinary word processor Paul Hackett
experiences the worst night ofhis life after he agrees to
visit Marcy, a Soho residentthat he met that evening at a
coffee shop.

SPEAKER_05 (52:55):
Okay, well, that's actually pretty accurate.
It's

SPEAKER_04 (52:57):
kind of the beginning of the story of this
film.
The last

SPEAKER_05 (53:01):
part of it is the beginning, and then the first
part of it is kind of whathappens.

SPEAKER_04 (53:06):
Yeah, I mean, it's funny that he agrees to visit.
I mean, he calls her and asksto...
I mean, he doesn't ask to comeover.
She does invite him, but youknow that's why he called.

SPEAKER_05 (53:16):
It seemed like such an interesting hookup, but when
you get to know her characterand realize that she's going
through some trauma, then Iguess she was just like...
reaching out to yeah likesomeone that that they had a
shared interest in in terms oflike the book that he was

SPEAKER_04 (53:33):
reading i also i mean presumably it's the worst
night of his life we don't knowthat for sure

SPEAKER_05 (53:39):
worst night of his life so

SPEAKER_04 (53:41):
far so far but yeah all good it's

SPEAKER_05 (53:45):
fine yeah that does it for me

SPEAKER_04 (53:47):
so on that note let's get into it with lisa and
dustin

SPEAKER_05 (53:50):
let's do it

SPEAKER_04 (53:51):
All right.
We're so excited to have thesetwo guests on the show today to
discuss this film.
We have with us Lisa and DustinMorrow of The Long Rewind.
It is their own 80s podcast.
And as they say, two Gen Xerstaking a trip down memory lane,
revisiting and reflecting on thecinema of the 1980s.

(54:14):
Lisa, welcome.
has her master's in libraryscience from Simmons College and
a BA in English and women'sstudy from Bucknell University.
She has several years ofexperience working in publishing
and libraries.
Dustin is an Emmy-winningfilmmaker, best-selling author,
programmer, podcaster, andeducator.

(54:34):
He is a tenured professor in theSchool of Film at Portland State
University and in Portland,Oregon, where he teaches courses
in digital cinema production andfilm studies.
And we are truly delighted tohave you guys on the show today.
Welcome.

SPEAKER_06 (54:49):
We're delighted to be here.

SPEAKER_04 (54:52):
Thank you so much.
We're so excited.

SPEAKER_02 (54:54):
Of

SPEAKER_04 (54:54):
course.
And as I do, really, we juststart off with the same
question.
And you guys are free to takeit.
Whoever wants to go first ortogether.
Do you have a first memory ofseeing After Hours?
And if you do, what was yourfirst impression of it?

SPEAKER_06 (55:15):
Well, I mean, you hear about food deserts now.
I grew up in a movie desert whenI was a kid, a small town in
rural Illinois, and did not havea lot of access to video stores.
There was one in my small town,but it wasn't going to carry
something like after hours.
And so I had to drive like ahalf hour to the nearest

(55:37):
blockbuster.
And when I would do so, I wouldstock up on sort of building my
own kind of film education as ahigh school kid.
And I was renting, going throughall of the old Scorsese movies
after I discovered, I think thefirst one I discovered was Taxi
Driver.
And I was like, holy crap, whois this guy?

(55:58):
And then I went and rented his,essentially his entire
filmography.
And as part of that process,found After Hours and fell in
love with it.
Lisa, had you seen it before Ishowed it to you?
No,

SPEAKER_02 (56:14):
I actually hadn't seen it before Dustin showed it
to me.
And yeah, so I saw it a lotlater than Dustin did.

UNKNOWN (56:24):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (56:24):
it was, uh, yeah.
And I, I think, you know, I'dalways loved movies.
Um, and I was interested in deepdives into movies, but just
hadn't really explored Scorseseall that much aside from maybe
like good fellas.
And, um, you know, Dustin showedthis to me and frankly, I just
thought it was awesome.
Like I was really, I'm from, um,Long Island, which is a suburb

(56:47):
of New York city.
So I'm, I'm somewhat familiarwith New York city.
I worked there for a Very cool.
And Dustin, just want to saysomething.

SPEAKER_04 (57:13):
Shout out to fellow Illinois native.
I am one as well.
Where are you from?
I grew up in the Chicagolandarea, so western suburbs,
Elmhurst.
Yep, yep.
Yeah, there you go.
And I'm just curious.
I'm going to kind of ask acouple questions based on both

(57:33):
of your answers.
Dustin, do you feel like becauseof what you said about your
upbringing and maybe havinglimited access to...
diversity of film did do youfeel like that in any way kind
of fostered your love for likekind of that that absence made
you more interested in it andthe fact that you went into that
as your profession

SPEAKER_06 (57:54):
well for sure yeah it's um it was a couple things
um it was the invention of thevcr and the fact that my dad
brought one home in the early80s one day and And I started
taping everything I could andrealizing through watching the
same movies over and over again,and then eventually the same
scenes over and over again, andthen eventually the same shots

(58:16):
over and over again, that therewere people behind this, that
someone had to be making this.
And I remember having thatrealization as a very little kid
and thinking, well, how doesthat work?
How does one make this?
And what are these decisionsthat they're making?
And it was just entirely sort ofarrived at through the process

(58:38):
of rewinding the same tapes overand over again and essentially
watching them turn into dust asI replayed them endlessly.
The

SPEAKER_01 (58:48):
broken tapes after a while.

SPEAKER_06 (58:50):
Yeah, yeah.
It was HBO.
It was the explosion of cable inthe 80s where they started
running movies over and overagain.
HBO in the early days didn'thave a lot of original
programming, so it was justrunning whatever it could
license.
And that meant that it wasrunning the same movies over and
over again.
And so whether you liked it ornot, you ended up seeing these

(59:11):
things endlessly and you startedto know them.
And it was the same thing withvideo stores and having a video
store move into our town.
My dad owned a drugstore.
He was actually the first one inour small town to rent VHS
tapes.
Oh, that's pretty cool.
Whatever he couldn't rent on agiven night, I would bring home.

(59:32):
So I would just bring home astack of tapes every night and
watch them over and over again.
So there are some of thesemovies that are not even very
good, but that I just know themlike the back of my hand because
they were part of that.
that collection of, of films.
And the other thing I'll sayabout it is that growing up
before the internet, um, in asmall town in the middle of

(59:56):
nowhere, um, you know, that's a,that's a cultural bubble.
And my exposure to the worldreally was through cinema and
through those videos that Iwould rent from the video store.
And so, you know, to take afterhours as an example, that was
my, um, That was my introductionto New York City, really, and

(01:00:17):
those types of movies.
And it formed my idea of like,you know, that the city was this
sort of alienating, dangerous,surreal space.
And so that was my first idea asa small town, you know, farm

(01:00:38):
community kid of what the citymust be like.
Uh, so, you know, it just, I,it's the, my, it's the way I
learned about the world wasthrough consuming cinema.
So, you know, how could I notwant to grow up to tell those
stories and contribute to that,you know, that canon, that
legacy.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:56):
You know, one thing that you mentioned that other
people have told us as well, andI never, I never did this or I
never really thought about it,but it was just like the
rewatching and not onlyrewatching, uh, like the
complete films, but then likerewatching scenes and just
holding on shots and others thatwe've spoken to her in the
industry have all kind of hadthis like similar, at least

(01:01:19):
history of how they firststarted watching films and how
it impacted them.
And it touched on one, one thingthat you mentioned is just like
the realization of howintentional so much of it is.
Like you, you're seeing it,being provided in a certain way
because it was intended to be.

(01:01:42):
You were intended to be viewingit from a certain point of view
or seeing a certain light.
And I think there are people nowwho don't consider that.
And that's part of the magic isyou're just watching it and
letting it happen without...
It's kind of a unique...
way of looking at it, I suppose,that's probably not unique if

(01:02:05):
you're working in the industry,but for, you know, it's just
like a lay person like me.
I had never even thought aboutthat.
So I just think it's superinteresting.

SPEAKER_06 (01:02:13):
Well, it's tricky, right?
Because you're not meant tonotice it.
I mean, that's if they're doingtheir job, if the filmmaker is
doing his or her job there,you're not meant to see that,
which is part of, you know, withmy students, especially teaching
something like editing, which isliterally like it's the
invisible art of filmmaking,because unlike cinematography or

(01:02:33):
acting or art direction oranything, there's nothing in
front of you other than therhythm of the piece itself.
And so how do you how do youexamine something that's meant
to be undetectable?
It's a process just to learn howto look at it before you can
reflect on it and learn from it.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:54):
And Lisa, I'm curious because, so Dustin, your
comment about how you felt youwere introduced to what New York
City was like, and Lisa, yougrowing up in that region, I'm
curious because like, okay, sofor instance, me growing up in
the Chicago area, whenever I seea film that It says that it's
set in Chicago, specificallyfrom that era, like a lot of the

(01:03:15):
John Hughes films.
And the way that I think it issimilar or not similar or
represented faithfully.
How did you feel about seeingthis film in the way that it was
represented, given that you havelike insight into it?

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:28):
Right.
It was such a good question.
Yeah, I think.
Well, it's good I saw this filmas an adult, I think.
I definitely wouldn't haveeither understood it, and I
would have been scared by itprobably as a much younger
person.
I don't know if this answersyour question, but it makes me
think about, and I don't know ifthis happened to you too, Anna,

(01:03:50):
we both kind of venerated NewYork City, but also were scared
of it because we were from thesuburbs, right?
I didn't live in it all thetime.
So it was like you were toldthat it was a scary place, But
also it was a place you went fora treat, like you would, you
know, go see something at RadioCity Music Hall or, you know, go
for Christmas or anything, youknow, something like that.

(01:04:12):
So I do think it, my sense ofNew York in the 80s, I mean,
even the nicer parts of New Yorkin the 80s were a little
grungier, like going to TimesSquare in the 80s was definitely
a different experience than itis now or even 20 years ago.
Yeah.
And I remember it being kind ofgrungy, even as a kid, you know,
you could tell, or going on thesubway or whatever, you know,

(01:04:35):
definitely grungier.
And it had its sort of darkmystique, even again, as a kid,
just going to Radio City MusicHall, you could kind of feel
that and see that.
So I think There is somethingabout it that feels authentic,
even though it is a veryfantastical movie.
Yeah, very stylized, very dreamyor nightmarish.
Even though it has that quality,I do think there's something

(01:04:58):
that feels to me kind ofauthentic about it, especially
that part of the city and myunderstanding of it now, both
now and in the 80s.
It was then...
kind of a desert.
I mean, it was kind of thisisolated, set-apart place.
I don't remember if it wasScorsese or Fran Lebowitz.
We've heard both of them talkabout this movie in interviews.

(01:05:19):
In fact, Fran Lebowitzinterviewing Martin Scorsese
about it.
I don't know if you guys knowFran Lebowitz.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:26):
The photographer?

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:27):
No, that's Annie Lebowitz, I think.
Good call.
Thank you.
Good ear there.
Good call.
She's more of a like a She's anauthor, raconteur, very New York
City person, big New York Cityperson.
And she's a friend of MartinScorsese's.
And I think in an interview, Ijust remember them both talking

(01:05:48):
about living in that area.
I think it's like the Lower EastSide of New York City in the 80s
and how you couldn't even getmilk there so you would like
when your friends would come tovisit you you would ask them to
bring like a gallon of milk or aquart of milk with them

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:02):
because you couldn't get it at

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:03):
certain times of day or whatever it would be it was
just like a really isolated partof the city and i think um i
don't know this film really getsat that i think you really feel
that this is like You're in likea really isolated place in the
city.
It

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:19):
justifies him feeling trapped.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:21):
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
Like you've gone into anunderworld kind of.
And to me, I mean, again, Ididn't, I certainly wasn't
hanging out in the Lower EastSide in the 80s.
But it seems to me somewhatauthentic to what the feel might
have been.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:36):
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (01:06:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:38):
Well, I'm curious for both of you.
So, Dustin, you mentioned thatprobably your first introduction
to Scorsese was, you said RagingBull, correct?
Probably the, or no, TaxiDriver, I'm sorry.
No, I think it was Taxi

SPEAKER_06 (01:06:49):
Driver, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:51):
And Lisa, you said perhaps it was Goodfellas was
maybe your first touch?
Might have been my

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:56):
first.
I'd seen Taxi Driver by the timeI'd seen After Hours 2, but
probably Goodfellas was thefirst thing I saw, yeah.
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:03):
That's probably right.
And...
You know, I don't think we evensaid this to you guys yet.
This was the first time thatDerek and I had seen After
Hours.

SPEAKER_05 (01:07:12):
I'm still processing.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:14):
Oh, yeah.
Wow.
You're welcome.
No, truly.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 (01:07:20):
I remember the one moment where we were like, is he
going to die?
I don't know.
Yeah.
It

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:27):
kind

SPEAKER_05 (01:07:27):
of feels like

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:28):
he is.
It's a good question.
It

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:30):
feels like it's on that track.
And, you know, I would sayprobably, Derek, you're maybe in
the same boat as me.
I don't want to speak on yourbehalf.
Like, we do enjoy his films forsure.
This felt very different from alot of his work, both previous
and after.
And so I'm just curious, like,the sense I get is that, you

(01:07:54):
know, you both do enjoy thismovie.
What is it about being a fan,perhaps, of his work in general,
but also this feeling a littlebit outside his normal work?
What is it about this film thatattracts you to it?

SPEAKER_06 (01:08:13):
Well, there's a lot.
Yeah.
One of the things that I loveabout movies is when you can see
the...
state of mind of the filmmakerat the time that they were
making the film, which is apretty rare thing because you
just don't see that.

(01:08:33):
It's hard to detect that inmovies.
You almost have to...
I mean, part of it is you haveto understand or be aware of the
narrative around the making ofthe movie in order to even
reflect on that.
But this is a very public...
the making of this movie in theindustry, Scorsese had full

(01:08:55):
funding and was days away frombeginning to shoot the movie
that he wanted to make for hisentire career, the most
important film that he wouldever make, he thought, which
would be The Last Temptation ofChrist, when everything went
wrong and the funding was pulledand his career, he thought, was

(01:09:15):
completely sidelined.
And he thought he would nevermake another movie.
And he was plunged into thisterrible depression.
And his friend, Amy Robinson,who appeared in Mean Streets,
she was the actress from MeanStreets, had become a producer
by that point.
And she brought him thisproperty.
And she said, you know, Iunderstand you're very down.

(01:09:37):
I think the best thing for youwould be to get busy and to work
and just make anything.
And this is something that Ithink at this time in your life,
given what you just wentthrough, you should make.
And so he makes this movie,which is so riddled with anxiety
and paranoia.

(01:09:59):
It almost becomes like, themovie is almost like being
inside a nightmare.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:05):
And

SPEAKER_06 (01:10:08):
that's all very, obviously, I think, part of
Scorsese's mindset when he wasmaking it.
A similar thing happened withthe movie that is the lesser
known movie, which is consideredthe kind of West Coast sister of
this film, which is a moviecalled Into the Night, which was

(01:10:28):
a film by John Landis starringJeff Goldblum and Michelle
Pfeiffer.
It's kind of like a diamondcaper.
It has a very similar tone.
And not a dissimilar narrativeeven from this movie, even
though it's a little moreconventional in its sort of
Hollywood trappings.

(01:10:51):
But that was a movie that wasmade around the time that John
Landis was on trial for thedeath of the actor Vic Morrow
and the two young actors thatdied on the set of Twilight Zone
and is a film that feels likeit's made by a guy who's under
incredible duress, just likeAfter Hours.

(01:11:15):
And that movie, too, is kind oflike being trapped inside a
nightmare where all of theinteractions, all of the
characters, everything thathappens doesn't quite, it feels
real enough that you buy it asbeing part of the world that you
live in, but so just slightlyunreal at the same time.

(01:11:36):
You know, just like dream logic,the idea that you could, you
know, one day, you know, you'reat work and then you walk
through a door and that you'reat home.
And as the comedian MitchHedberg once said, you know, the
next thing I know, I have tobuild a lawnmower with my
ex-landlord.
You know, it's just the weirdway that dreams

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:54):
work.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:11:57):
No, I

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:57):
like that.

SPEAKER_05 (01:11:58):
Even the, I mean, aside from like the imagery and
the way that the story unfolded,even the dialogue was, felt
dreamlike, like the, the cover,particularly in the beginning,
someone would say, I like pizza.
And the other person would say,do you know the correct
temperature to make coffee?
And I'm like, what is that?

(01:12:18):
Those weren't actual examples,but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:12:20):
Like non-stock order.
Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:12:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm like, what is happeningright now?
Particularly with the, the likeopening portion with Marcy.

SPEAKER_04 (01:12:29):
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (01:12:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:12:30):
Yeah.
Yeah, I really quickly justwanted to say one thing that I
loved about Dunn's performance.
So, you know, we've mentionedthat everything feels very kind
of dreamlike in a manner ofspeaking or nightmarish.
But one thing that felt sorelatable, there are a couple
instances for me.
I think the first was when he'stalking to Kiki, I think
specifically while he's givingher the back rub.

(01:12:54):
And there's all these instanceswhere...
the people he's talking to arekind of saying these like
bizarre, you know, as we'vementioned, just like these
nonsensical things almost.
And he's trying really hard tohave a real conversation about
it.
Like he kind of takes a lot atface value and try.

(01:13:17):
And I, all I can say is I'vebeen in that situation where
you're maybe having aconversation with someone and
they say something a littleawkward or something that you
don't really know how to respondto, but you don't, Yeah.
Right.
Right.

SPEAKER_05 (01:13:50):
that doesn't make any sense.
And so that's all you can do isjust try to like reflect it back
at them and say, Oh yeah, no,this one time when I was a kid
and then suddenly Kiki's asleep.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:00):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
You're trying to honor thatsocial contract so hard and yet
no one else around you is doingthe same thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.

SPEAKER_06 (01:14:12):
What's fun too is when you see him start to push
back against that as the moviegoes on to like, there's that
point where even though, Heclearly has no interest in the
plaster of Paris paperweightthat he has supposedly

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:25):
come down there

SPEAKER_06 (01:14:27):
to purchase.
There's a point where he snapsand he's like, where the hell is
my plaster of Paris paperweight?
That's what I'm here for and Iwant it now.
And when the guys start toconfuse him for being the area
burglar, you can see there arepoints where he's like, It's so
delightful.

(01:14:47):
The comic rhythms of hisperformance are so great because
the moments where he kind ofsnaps and pushes back are so
much fun.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:55):
After

SPEAKER_06 (01:14:55):
watching him get crushed through the whole movie,
basically.

SPEAKER_05 (01:15:00):
I'm so glad you brought up the burglaries
because it's the one thing whereI felt like Cheech and Chong
were just criminally underusedin this.

SPEAKER_04 (01:15:11):
They I know a lot of really interesting actors just
kind of pop up and pop away inthis film.
So I'm curious, like for both ofyou.
Well, Lisa, you might have morecontext because you saw it a
little bit as an adult, like tosee all of these actors who have
gone on to have and some ofthem.

(01:15:31):
I mean, I feel like.
Catherine O'Hara is still prettyearly in her career.
Like a lot of people were.
Terry Garr was maybe morewell-known at the time.
How did you feel about kind ofjust like, it really isn't,
although of course Dunn anchorsthe film, it has like a wide
ensemble of characters.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:50):
Oh, yeah.
Well, I found that, I mean, tome, that's always delightful,
right?
When you see someone used in away you didn't expect and you
know who they are.
But I think it also maybe lendssomething lend you more of that
dream-like, nightmare-likequality because maybe it's kind
of like having a dream wheresomeone pops up that you don't

(01:16:11):
expect.
Or someone looks a little...
You know who they are, but theylook a little different from how
you remember them or whatever.
So I don't know.
To me, it sort of gives it thatdream and nightmare-like quality
too.
And just some of these peopleare just such great comic
performers that it's...
a delight to see them used inthis kind of comedic, but scary

(01:16:34):
way.
Catherine O'Hara is both scaryand comedic and Terry Gar kind
of is too.
So very much so.
They

SPEAKER_05 (01:16:41):
were both quite sinister.
Yeah.
I mean, it was, yeah,

SPEAKER_04 (01:16:46):
it, if I may, the one thing that might be a little
controversial, I don't know,maybe, maybe not.
I was curious for both of yourthoughts.
So I, Seeing this with fresheyes never viewed before, as
he's going through hisadventures and he bumps...

(01:17:07):
I

SPEAKER_05 (01:17:07):
love that you keep calling them

SPEAKER_04 (01:17:08):
his adventures.
That's a kind way of putting it,yeah.
He bumps up against four tofive, if we're including Kiki,
women who...
all kind of show themselves tobe, and like maybe this is just
part of the greater narrative oflike what we've talked about
with this being its own kind ofyuppie nightmare.

(01:17:31):
But all these women portray, I'mgoing to say like unbalanced
characteristics.
And for me, the one malecharacter who is the most
prominent outside of Dunn isJohn Heard's character.
the bartender who comes acrossas rather like he too is going
through it that night.
You know, he finds out that hisgirlfriend ended her life and,

(01:17:54):
you know, but all things said,he is a fairly even keel
character.
So I'm just putting it outthere.
If that was picked up on yourend, in terms of the way that
the female characters areportrayed versus the male, there
is like a, a large discrepancyin terms of like, he keeps
bumping up against specificallyfemale characters that, you know

(01:18:15):
continue to propel him into thisnightmare so I'll just leave it
at that I'm really curious whatyou guys think

SPEAKER_06 (01:18:22):
well he it's there's definitely a theme running
through the whole movie ofsexual frustration and
repression and Scorsese isclearly using film noir and
archetypes here, like the femmefatale.
I mean, the movie looks like anoir.
It looks like a noir movie incolor, basically.

(01:18:44):
And so he's playing with all ofthese kind of funky 80s, you
know, Soho twists on the femmefatale, but, you know, they're
all there, everything from thevirgin to the whore, right?
It's the whole spectrum shows upin all of these different
characters.

(01:19:04):
And there's all these littlemoments where his character is
is emasculated or kind of, youknow, startled.
Um, and it's, it's not evenalways, uh, in his interactions
with the women in the movie,there's like a scene where he's
going to the bathroom

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:21):
and he

SPEAKER_06 (01:19:22):
looks at a little piece of graffiti, which is a
shark fighting down on a malemember.
And it's, it's not subtle,right?
The, uh, you know, the wholereason he's down there is to get
laid, right?
Like that's the reason he goesdowntown.
That's why he's you know he'sdoomed from the beginning really

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:43):
after all yeah

SPEAKER_06 (01:19:45):
yeah it's not he's not there for the paperweight

SPEAKER_04 (01:19:47):
right right

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:49):
yeah

SPEAKER_04 (01:19:50):
and lisa how do you feel about the those various
portrayals

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:54):
yeah i mean i think you know i for sure you can see
the theme um you know it comesfrom a very particular point of
view, I think, which is GriffinDunn's point of view or, right.
So you're seeing, and, and I,you mentioned, I think that
does, it adds to the sort ofyuppie nightmare quality.
Um, because I think usually whenyou think yuppie, you think of a

(01:20:17):
young male professional,frankly, I mean, there were
female yuppies too, but I thinkit's,

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:22):
it

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:22):
underscores all of that.
Um, I think that I, you know,they're archetypes, right?
So I guess, I think of them asarchetypal more than actual
portrayals of real people.
I think archetypes can be reallyfun in a movie and interesting
to look at.
But yeah, I mean, you're right.
I think it's definitely a themeand it's definitely obvious.

(01:20:46):
I mean, again, that picture onthe wall, which is funny because
it has nothing to do with any ofthe women in the movie, but that
picture on the bathroom wallpretty much says it all, right?
I

SPEAKER_06 (01:20:56):
mean, the other thing to remember is that
Scorsese grew up very Catholic.
Yes, very Catholic.
And the movie that he was aboutto make right before After Hours
was The Last Temptation ofChrist.
And it's right there in thetitle, really.
You know, that movie is aboutthat relationship with Mary
Magdalene.
And, you know, Scorsese has, youknow, all of his movies, Mean

(01:21:18):
Streets especially, and thecouple that he made before that
that were very low budget, Who'sThat Knocking at My Door and
stuff.
They're very, you know...
they're very steeped in catholicguilt especially around sex and
relationships with you know theopposite sex and that that stuff
was all there in uh in afterhours for sure i'd be curious to

(01:21:41):
know how much of that was in thescript and how much of that is
like in scorsese yeah

SPEAKER_04 (01:21:47):
no that's an excellent point i mean as far as
like the the female charactersgo it's interesting to me
because um As the filmprogresses, obviously the
longest sequence in involvementis with Marcy.
And then it almost feels likewith each successive character,
so we go from her to Julie toGail to June, and each of them

(01:22:10):
are kind of shorter sequences.
At least it felt that way to me,is that next along the line he
spends the most time with Julie,next along the line, you know,
it's Gail, but it's a shorteramount of time.
And then June is just a quicklittle blip.
And so while each of them havelike different dynamics that

(01:22:32):
they bring to the film, I kindof want to concentrate on Marcy
because I kind of feel in a wayshe represents all of them in a
way.
How did you feel, first of all,about Arquette's performance in
this role and just that dynamicthat Like we all have said at
this point, like, yes, it'sclear that Paul is going up to
me with her because he thinkshe's going to get laid that

(01:22:55):
night.
So I'm just curious about howyou feel about the way they play
off each other, what she bringsto the table as both a performer
and as the character.

SPEAKER_06 (01:23:03):
Well, Arquette was a she was sort of an ingenue.
and played a lot of, you know,like we mentioned, Desperately
Seeking Susan.
She played a lot of these sortof like, you know, fluttery

(01:23:23):
characters.
And, you know, she's wearingthis white dress.
You know, it's, she's, I don'tknow that I would say she's
virginal necessarily because sheultimately ends up being just as
much of sort of a femme fataleas every other character in the
movie.
But, But there's something alittle more innocent to her,
which is sort of why it'sinteresting, this creeping,

(01:23:47):
surreal paranoia that kind ofcomes into the movie around this
idea that she might have theseburns.

SPEAKER_02 (01:23:54):
Yes.
That she is hiding

SPEAKER_06 (01:23:56):
from his character and that she's carrying these
scars or this other side to herthat he's not seeing and that
he's getting increasingly kindof anxious about.
So yeah, it's interesting.
She's one of my favoriteactresses of that era though.
I just think she was, I don'tthink she was ever used as well

(01:24:19):
as she could have been.
I think she's, I think she'svery good.
I think she's great inDesperately Seeking Susan.

SPEAKER_04 (01:24:24):
Oh, absolutely agree with that.
Yep.
And Lisa, how did you feel abouther performance?

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:31):
Yeah, I think she's fascinating to watch.
I think she's really appealingand, I was thinking about, you
mentioned a sort of the Odyssey,right?
It made me, I was thinking sortof of mythical things and
archetypes and how she does seemvery innocent.
at the beginning and she almostlike lures him to the underworld
in a way.

(01:24:52):
Right.
She like, she's like, yeah.
And then as, as you, as themovie progresses, you, you
learn, you start to noticethings about her, like, like the
burn stuff that he's talkingabout.
And she's, she also, like youwere saying, Derek, you know,
she starts to say things thatlike maybe don't totally make
sense and she's getting veryagitated and you know, so it's,

(01:25:12):
I think it's an interestingthing.
devolution or maybe not, notdecay, but it's like, she's
like, maybe like Dustin wassaying, she's slowly starting to
reveal that maybe she isn't theinnocent that he thought she was
as he got lured into underworld.
Right.
So I think she's, it's afascinating character.

(01:25:34):
I think she's really fun towatch.
And I think she plays that sortof ingenue turned kind of, I
don't know, what would you callit?
She's like an ingenue turnedsort of unhinged person or like
slightly unhinged person.
She plays that change, I think,really nicely.

(01:25:56):
Yeah, I enjoyed it.
I thought it was a goodperformance.
Just doubling

SPEAKER_06 (01:26:03):
back on something you said too earlier, Anna,
which about the noticing thatthe interactions with these
characters get shorter andshorter and I just want to call
out that one of the things Ilove about this movie are its
sort of offbeat rhythms and theway that it accelerates, the

(01:26:25):
narrative kind of accelerates asthe movie goes on.
And I think that that's largelydue to this incredible career
long journey.
collaboration that Scorsese hadwith a woman named Thelma
Schoonmaker who was his editorshe edited all his movies
essentially until she retired ata certain point I can't remember
what her last one was with himbut she's such a huge

(01:26:48):
contributor to everything thatpeople love about his movies.
If you think about the third actof Goodfellas when Ray Liotta's
running around and he's in thatdrug-induced kind of anxiety,
seeing helicopters everywhere.
I mean, she's a genius.
And with an editor like ThelmaSchoonmaker, you can't help but
be considered a great filmmaker,really, because she's going to

(01:27:10):
take whatever you give her andshe's going to elevate it.
And one of the things I loveabout this movie is exactly what
you were saying, Anna, which isthe movie It seems to pick up
steam as it goes.
And so that when you do havemoments where Paul gets trapped,
it makes you as an audiencemember feel really anxious.

(01:27:30):
Like when Terry Garr won't lethim leave her apartment.

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:36):
Oh, gosh.
And

SPEAKER_06 (01:27:37):
she's got all those mousetraps all over the floor.
Yeah.
And there's all that weirdfifties iconography, like
because the, he's been, becauseyou've seen him running through
this whole movie and justconstantly moving when he gets
trapped in that room.
It's like, Oh my God, you justwant him to get out.
Or when he gets put inside the,uh, the plaster himself.

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:28:00):
He literally can't move.
That's pushing back againstthose incredible rhythms that
Thelma Schoonmaker has createdas the movie goes on.
It makes you as an audiencemember want to crawl out of your
skin, I

SPEAKER_05 (01:28:13):
think.
Yeah, the plaster was veryanxiety-inducing.
The one additional thing Iwanted to mention or that I
noticed, I guess, through...
these interactions with thedifferent characters and how
each one was for a little bitless time.
Paul's character after, youknow, his interaction with Marcy

(01:28:38):
with each successiveinteraction, he's, he's, going
into that interaction with alittle bit more sincerity
because it feels like part ofthat anxiety is just trying to
find someone who is like, Iguess, more normal or who can
help him.
And so like just the way thathe's approaching those and, you

(01:29:02):
know, it almost seems It almostgot there with, who is it,
Catherine?
Yeah,

SPEAKER_04 (01:29:06):
Gale.
With Gale.

SPEAKER_05 (01:29:08):
Until he was completely sabotaged by Terry
Garr.
So, yeah, by the time he got tothe end, it seemed like he was
just really putting himself outthere in a way that he hadn't at
any other previous point in themovie.
And for all of that trouble, hewas just encased in plaster.

SPEAKER_06 (01:29:29):
Right, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:29:31):
Yeah.
And

SPEAKER_06 (01:29:31):
think about his, think about his interaction with
the bartender.
Oh yeah.
This is the, like Anna wassaying, this is like the one
kind of normal person that kindof seems to want to help him
out.
And it's not, it's notintentional, but he essentially
betrays that guy because notonly does that guy end up being
Marcy's boyfriend, but also hefloods his bathroom.

(01:29:54):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
No one ever talks about that.
And

SPEAKER_05 (01:29:58):
everything comes up.

SPEAKER_06 (01:30:00):
Yeah, yeah.
The toilet.
So it's like, you know, he kindof stabs that guy in the back.
Like the one guy who wasactually trying to like do him a
solid.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:30:09):
And if I may really quickly about Gail, probably one
of the funniest moments for me,I just found it so hilarious
when he, you know, he's runningaway from the mob, I guess you
would say.
The neighborhood watch.
The neighborhood watch.
I think he's gone up the fireescape and he just sees the slow

(01:30:30):
moving, what's the name of theice cream?
Mr.
Softy, I think.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Yes, I think you're right.
And so he just sees the reallyslow move.
being soft with like people thattickled my funny boat.
I just thought, those littlemoments were just so funny

SPEAKER_05 (01:30:47):
is that when he saw the person getting actually
murdered like shot and he's likethey're gonna blame me for that

SPEAKER_04 (01:30:51):
too yes that back to back I think that also was
hilarious which okay so I wantedto really quickly bring that
back to the Burns because therewere a couple moments in the
film the Burns was one themurder was the other where I
almost was like you know are wegetting to a realm of like
hallucination or like where it'sreally going beyond like was he

(01:31:14):
really Was he really seeing aman getting shot?

SPEAKER_01 (01:31:18):
And

SPEAKER_04 (01:31:18):
I'm just curious from your perspective, both of
you, like, are there momentswhere it really goes outside the
realm of reality and what'strue?

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:30):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the question of the
film, right?
And the question of many ofthese kind of films.
A lot of the films Dustin wasmentioning, maybe not all of
them, but a lot of the filmsDustin was mentioning as Yuppie
Nightmare movies have that same,you're left with that same
question.
Was this all just a dream?
Or were parts of it a dream?
Or did this actually happen?
I don't know, Dustin, you mayhave more to say about that,

(01:31:52):
but...

SPEAKER_06 (01:31:53):
Well, I think, yeah, it's just it's it's how you as a
viewer want to read the movie.
Right.
Like, I think you can make anargument that none of this
happens, that this is all anactual nightmare.
You can just look at it as sortof like this Kafkaesque allegory
and view it that way.
It's a very self-aware movie.
Right.
It's a very filmic film.

(01:32:14):
There's all these like cameramoves that draw attention to
themselves.
You know, it's not a it's not amovie.
You know, Lisa and I talkedabout this movie on another
podcast with some people who welove.
They're good friends of ours,but they tend to read movies

(01:32:34):
very literally.
And they tried to apply kind ofa real literal reading to this
movie.
Like, why doesn't he just gohome, right?
You know, you can argue that hetries.
Like, they changed the subwayfee.

SPEAKER_02 (01:32:47):
The subway thing cracks me up.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh my God, that was so funny.

SPEAKER_06 (01:32:50):
Theoretically, like if you know New York, you know
that he could walk home in a

SPEAKER_02 (01:32:57):
few hours.
It would take a long time, buthe could do

SPEAKER_06 (01:32:59):
it.
It would take a long time.
It would take most of the nightprobably, but he could do it.
But he doesn't do that.
And so I conclude sort of thatthat's not the point, that the
movie is not really meant to be,that you're leading yourself to
like some frustration as aviewer if you try to read the
movie in a hyper literal way.
way.

(01:33:19):
So, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 (01:33:21):
We've been guilty of that too, though.

SPEAKER_06 (01:33:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:33:23):
Like there are so many films where if you just
start pulling at that thread,you're like, well, then there
wouldn't be a

SPEAKER_02 (01:33:30):
movie.
So it's hard not to.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:33:32):
Yeah.
Well, in the movie, it's theresponsibility of the movie to
teach you how to watch it.
Right.
And so the beginning of AfterHours is fairly conventional,
really.
Like he's showing BronsonPinchot how to work a computer
and then he goes to a coffeeshop and he hits on a girl and
you haven't seen anything likethat would make you think that
the movie is going to becomewhat it ultimately becomes.

(01:33:53):
And like I was saying earlier,it's a very, you know, it's a
gradual descent into thisunderworld that gets weirder and
weirder until by the end of themovie, I think you are asking
the exact question that Annajust asked, which is like, you
know, is any of this happeningor is some of it happening and

(01:34:13):
some of it's not?
Or, you know, what is it?
And I think that's one of the,pleasures of the movie, really.
But I could see how it wouldfrustrate people, other people
who were just like, why doesn'the just go home?

SPEAKER_02 (01:34:27):
But you can be totally forgiven, as you say,
Dustin, because you are luredinto it slowly.
You do think you're watchingsomething that's actually
happening to someone, andeventually there's the question,
because yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:34:41):
And in terms of really quickly, because I mean,
going along with what's real,what's not real in terms of
Marcy taking her life.
I mean, at one point, Derek, Imean, because I think I think
there's been a lot of moviesthat have done this where you're
like, oh, tricked you.
She's actually like not, youknow.
Yeah, because I

SPEAKER_05 (01:35:01):
was wondering.
I didn't know where it wasgoing.
I didn't know if he was going tobe blamed for her death.
And then it turns out that shewasn't dead.
It was just like an overdose.
But she's not actually dead.
Because like he's a wordprocessor, not a doctor.
Maybe he got that right.
Sure.
So, yeah, I wasn't sure wherethat was going.

SPEAKER_04 (01:35:18):
And to take it a little bit at face value.
I'm just curious if.
you feel he had anything to dolike if if the assumption is yes
this person actually took herlife this really happened do you
feel like he had anything to dowith that was that something
that was outside of him and thatshe was just in such a state
that like by the time he wasintroduced to her this this

(01:35:42):
trajectory was already takingits course and she was going to
take her life like do you feellike he had anything to do with
with the choice that she made

SPEAKER_06 (01:35:53):
My literal reading is no, he didn't because she
didn't seem that interested inhim once he got there.
And so he's nobody to killyourself over.

SPEAKER_02 (01:36:04):
Sure.

SPEAKER_06 (01:36:05):
My non-literal reading, the reading I prefer,
is that it's entirely his faultbecause the movie is about him.

SPEAKER_02 (01:36:15):
And

SPEAKER_06 (01:36:16):
so everything has to be filtered through his
experience of the night.
And so if the girl that you wentdowntown to sleep with ends up
killing herself, and you're assort of self-centered as this
character is, and you're havingthe night this character is,
then of course it's all aboutyou.

(01:36:36):
Sure,

SPEAKER_02 (01:36:37):
yeah.
If he seemed to think so.
Yes.
Well, this brings us back toCatholic guilt too, I think,
right?
You think everything's yourfault.
You know, you caused everything.
Plus, it's not only that, but ifwe're reading this as his
nightmare, it's all happening inhis head, right?
So he definitely created all ofit.
So, you know, you could read itthat way too.
No,

SPEAKER_04 (01:36:57):
that's an excellent point.
Yep.
No, and I did– if I may, this isa little bit of a tangent– well,
not tangent, but I do love thatwhen he is speaking to the
gentleman where, like, again,you know, Derek, you mentioned
that he has– Yeah.

(01:37:43):
to call back to like one of thefunniest moments is when he is
talking about the subway fareand he's like did you know that
i didn't know that yeah but thenhe also just so casually you
know like he it's an interestingdynamic because on the one hand
he kind of in a very casual wayalthough yes he is excited and
emotional about it to somedegree about marcy you know

(01:38:05):
ending her life but at the sametime like you're right like he
does feel like he very much hassomething to do with that
happening and that is alsocontributing to just the anxiety
and desperation mounting for himover the course of this night
it's just it is it is reallyinteresting i feel like his
little monologue to thatgentleman in a really kind of

(01:38:26):
hilarious way encapsulateseverything about about how he
feels about his own evening umYeah.
Sorry.
Sorry.
That's kind of neither here northere.
But I just wanted to bring upthat scene.
I didn't know how you guys feltabout that particular scene.
Sometimes those types of scenesfeel a little bit too on the
nose because he's literallyrecapping his evening.

(01:38:47):
But how did you feel about thataddition to the film?
I

SPEAKER_06 (01:38:52):
thought it was...
I mean, it's a fun scene becausethat guy, again, seems fairly
normal.
Yes.
And so it's...
he, that guy is us to somedegree, right?
He's the audience and you know,he's being presented with this
thing and it's like, what doyou, what do you make of this?
Um, I have a question.
Did you, did you guys, did youguys like Paul?

SPEAKER_04 (01:39:14):
Oh, that's a great question.
Wow.

SPEAKER_06 (01:39:17):
Are you rooting?
Were you rooting for him?

SPEAKER_04 (01:39:20):
How do you

SPEAKER_06 (01:39:20):
feel about him?

SPEAKER_04 (01:39:24):
I, wow.
I don't know.
I think, I think because forthis being a first viewing for
us, and we truly were almost...
I don't want to speak on yourbehalf, Derek, but it really was
me being taken along on thisride because I did not know
where this film was going.

SPEAKER_05 (01:39:43):
Yeah.
No, that's a good point.
And that's a good thing toconsider when I'm considering
whether I liked it because therewere so many moments of the
movie where I really wasn't surewhere it was going and...
where it could have gone couldhave impacted how i would feel
about him right i think themoments where he just like when

(01:40:04):
he hopped over the thing at thesubway i even said just hop the
subway i don't think there wouldhave really been a cop there
sure there was so like themoments where he was clearly
like just over it and try to gethome i definitely like
empathized with like No, I getit.
Maybe you'd get a little bitmore help if you weren't

(01:40:25):
freaking out, but I understandwhy you're freaking out.
As far as what started the movieoff in the first place, just him
randomly meeting Marcy and thengoing out in hopes of hooking
up.
Yeah, I don't know if I'mlike...
if I like him or dislike him,but there were a lot of moments
where I just didn't want him todie.

(01:40:47):
I know, I know he said that,like, I want to live.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:40:50):
That's right.
Yeah.
So

SPEAKER_05 (01:40:54):
like, I felt, I felt like I was, uh, sympathizing
with him, uh, throughout a lotof the movie.
And I was, uh, I am very happythat test audiences hated the
ending of him just being trappedin the plaster forever and that
they instead went with himfalling out of Cheech and
Chong's hilariously sped up van.

SPEAKER_04 (01:41:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But that is such a goodquestion, Dustin, because I
think I was just too caught upin...
And everything that washappening to him for me to get a
read on him, if that makes anysense.
So I think I'd need to watch itagain to kind of like now that I
kind of know where things aregoing to go.
He

SPEAKER_05 (01:41:33):
didn't seem like a bad person.
He was smart enough to not tellthe bartender.
Oh, yeah, I was just hanging out

SPEAKER_04 (01:41:41):
with Marcy.
Sure.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:41:43):
You could see the wheels spinning in that moment
where he's like.
Oh, what do I what do I do?
And then the bikers at the barwere like, well, it wasn't your
fault.
And he's right.
Exactly.
It was not my fault.

SPEAKER_04 (01:41:56):
Yeah, no, no, that's a good question.
I mean, yeah, I think I doreally appreciate when films
portray characters as like, youknow, not black or white and
they're not just clearly thehero or the villain.
And I do think that Paulencompasses both of that.
Um, I think sometimes to yourpoint, Derek, he does things

(01:42:18):
where you are extremelysympathetic to his plight and,
you know, there are, there wereother moments in the film, like,
I mean, you know, his, his, whathe thinks is going to happen
with Marcy and the way that atleast it felt to me at first,
despite, um, behavior on her andthat he found unusual.

(01:42:39):
He still wanted to kind ofprogress that narrative of like,
we're going to sleep together.
You know, like when they were inthe hallway, he was

SPEAKER_05 (01:42:46):
real interested

SPEAKER_04 (01:42:47):
in that.
Yeah.
And he just, you know, at thatmoment pulls her aside and
kisses her.
So he still is very intent onthis particular outcome, even
though already he's been shownthat something's up with her.
So that, you know, she

SPEAKER_05 (01:43:00):
start crying right after they're like, he kisses
her.
She starts crying or am Imisremembering that part of the
movie?

SPEAKER_04 (01:43:10):
Does she start crying?
I'm not remembering either.
I don't remember.
But yeah, so there are momentsin the film where I'm like, hey,
dude.
maybe not cool like she's goingthrough something just forget
the whole trying to sleep withher tonight but yeah I mean

SPEAKER_05 (01:43:26):
that's fair

SPEAKER_04 (01:43:26):
when somebody when somebody gets to the point of
desperation like him then likeof course you know and
especially again I will say thatthis this film is took me to a
lot of different places, um, interms of like, and, and, and I
don't say any of this withnegativity, but like sometimes
great confusion.
Like, I'm not sure I understandwhat's happening at this moment,

(01:43:49):
maybe intentionally.
So with everything we've spokenof, um, there

SPEAKER_05 (01:43:53):
are great movie to rewatch now that I know, because
I was so focused on, I was solike hyper focused on how is
this going to end that I'm surethere are like pieces of this
movie that just went right by mebecause I wasn't paying
attention.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:44:06):
And moments of like great hilarity.
But yes, I will say one thingthat I felt was such an
achievement of the film as well.
There is obviously varyinglevels of anxiety throughout the
entire film.
I, for me, that moment where hethinks he is stuck in the
plaster was so uncomfortable forme.

(01:44:26):
Like I not knowing the outcomeand I didn't know, you know, the
fact that you guys now are, thisis like repeat viewing for, you,
Lisa and Dustin, you know, doesit still hit you the same way
or, you know, I know that's hardto say with familiarity with any
film, but like how, how does itfeel for you guys when it gets

(01:44:48):
to that point, that climax?

SPEAKER_06 (01:44:52):
Yeah.
I mean, I think the familiarityaspect is, I think, I mean, I've
seen this movie probably acouple dozen times maybe.
And it's, I'm at the point whereI'm just admiring the, the
craft, like how it's...
I'm looking at what Scorsesedid.
I mean, like Derek's right.
It's a very rewatchable movie ifyou're a film nut because it's

(01:45:16):
dense with interesting shots andediting strategies and
performances and art direction.
And it's just, it's a, you know,it's a cineast's dream, this
movie, which is ironic becauseit's kind of a living nightmare
of the movie

SPEAKER_02 (01:45:35):
itself.
A sinuous nightmare as well.
Yes, I guess so.
I like that.

SPEAKER_06 (01:45:39):
Yeah.
So it doesn't make me asanxious, but that's why I wanted
to ask you if you liked Paul.
I'm also curious just to askyou, since this was a first
viewing for you, like on a kindof moment to moment basis, how
you were Were you laughing?
I've always wondered.
I mean, I find this moviehilarious, but I've watched it

(01:46:03):
with people who sat there instone silence.
And I think the reason is thatperhaps for some people, the
level of anxiety that's layeredinto the very DNA of the movie
is so overwhelming that thecomedy can't land there.

(01:46:24):
Like that maybe Scorsese wentslightly too far in one
direction.
And I think without the comedy,this movie is unwatchable
because it would just be toounbearably anxious.
But I'm curious, were you guyslaughing?
Were you having a good timewhile you were watching it?
Or was it like a gripping theblanket kind of situation?

SPEAKER_05 (01:46:48):
It was, for me at least, probably a little bit
more gripping than laughing.
But that's again, for us firstviewing, not really knowing what
I was getting into and maybeknowing that it was a Scorsese
film.
I'm like, I don't, I don't trustyou, Scorsese.
I think you're going to makethis.
I think you're like, are yougoing to turn this into like,

(01:47:10):
taxi driver after hours orsomething?

SPEAKER_02 (01:47:14):
Sure, yeah.
That's understandable.

SPEAKER_05 (01:47:15):
The whole end in a bloodbath, yeah.
Yeah, well, I thought that Marcywas, like, luring him into,
like, some

SPEAKER_04 (01:47:22):
weird...
Harvest his organs or something.

SPEAKER_05 (01:47:23):
Yeah.
So, like, there came a pointwhere they're, like, there were,
there were scenes, there weremoments that were funny, like in
spite of all of the anxiety andeverything else that was
happening.
And, and that was great.
And I, you know, it wasn'tnecessarily like a laugh, a
laughing moment or a funnymoment, but I did enjoy the

(01:47:44):
scene at the, the club mostlybecause I'm like, I'm a big fan
of like punk and I recognize thebad brains

SPEAKER_02 (01:47:51):
right away.
Music right away.
So yeah,

SPEAKER_05 (01:47:54):
I thought that was really cool.
But yeah, when I, when I lookedat like IMDb and just like
Apple, Apple TV afterwards, I'mlike, Apple TV is just calling
this a comedy.
IMDb includes the tag darkcomedy.
I think it's more dark comedyfor me, but watching again,
knowing, knowing now what Iknow, I think, I think I would

(01:48:16):
probably be able to like loosenup enough to laugh at more of
the jokes in it.

UNKNOWN (01:48:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:48:22):
Derek,

SPEAKER_06 (01:48:24):
did you grow up in a city?
Where are you from?

SPEAKER_05 (01:48:28):
I grew up in Phoenix.
So the after hours aspect of itis not unfamiliar to me because
that was the only time you couldgo out.

SPEAKER_01 (01:48:39):
Oh, sure.
Yeah.
I was just

SPEAKER_06 (01:48:44):
curious on your own, sort of what you brought to it
in terms of your own...
ideas of what urban nights are.

SPEAKER_05 (01:48:51):
I spent one week in New York and went to bed early
every night because it was forwork.
So that probably does nottranslate very well.

SPEAKER_06 (01:49:03):
Also, unless it was the 80s, it would be very
different.
Lisa and I go to New York allthe time and we go out at night
and it's very Walt Disney now.
It's very different.

SPEAKER_02 (01:49:12):
It was two years ago, so yeah.
No, it's fine.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean,

SPEAKER_04 (01:49:20):
I think that for- What about

SPEAKER_06 (01:49:21):
you, Anna?
How were you feeling while youwere watching it?

SPEAKER_04 (01:49:24):
You know, it was kind of one of those instances
where I had to, not to say thatI wasn't going to be paying
attention to the film, but itreally kept me on my toes
because it does change- tonalityyou know throughout the course
of as you're watching it and soit begins feeling very rooted in

(01:49:48):
reality and a dullness of it andthat's why I immediately was
like thinking Fight Club butthat's also once it started
getting going I was like oh okayhere's another kind of
similarity to Fight Club interms of kind of heightened
realities heightened stylizationin a way and And I think the
anxiety actually, although Istand by what I said about that

(01:50:10):
moment where he's in the plasterand you just don't know if he's
going to get out of it.
In a way, the anxiety kind of,in some moments, alleviated as
we went further down the roadbecause I started understanding
the dark humor of it.
I got it.
Yeah.
So I...
I think I was more likeliterally in my shoulders, more

(01:50:31):
tense watching it for the firsthalf of the film.
And also the slower pacing,because I will admit that, you
know.
I can get a little impatientwith slower paced films and
especially the ongoinginteraction with Marcy.
And in my head, I'm just like,where's this going?

(01:50:51):
Where is this going?
I do.
unfortunately have this need toknow and and as the film sped up
pacing wise I kind of sat backand and understanding the humor
of it was able to sit back alittle bit more and just enjoy
it if that makes any sense

SPEAKER_02 (01:51:09):
so yeah that makes a lot of sense yeah

SPEAKER_04 (01:51:11):
yeah

SPEAKER_02 (01:51:11):
like you were learning the language of the
film you were learning the rulesof this world and so yeah kind
of able to hang with it as it asit went on yeah

SPEAKER_04 (01:51:19):
and I will say that I came in, given my experience
with other Scorsese films, and Iwill only speak for myself in
saying this felt very differentfrom what I know of his work.
And so I think I went into itwith a different set of
expectations.

SPEAKER_05 (01:51:41):
I forgot that it was Scorsese until the movie
started.
I'm like, oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:51:45):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think that was anotherlayer.
to how I first interpreted thefilm.
So I feel like throughout a lotof his other work, there's
greater consistency in terms oftone.
And that's neither good nor bad.
Just from my own experience,that feels consistent for me.

(01:52:07):
And so, yeah, it was fascinatingto watch this film.
And this conversation has beenequally fascinating.
I've loved...
talking to both of you and I'mreally curious like to as we
kind of wrap up you know againfirst viewing for Derek and

(01:52:27):
myself I think if I may it feelslike among people who whether or
not they consider themselveslike cinephiles if you think
about Scorsese and his workmaybe you are initially thinking
taxi driver Raging BullGoodfellas those types generally

(01:52:48):
You know, the mob mob mobstertype films, too.
And this one kind of sits in aninteresting place.
Like, I know it has a cultfollowing.
I think.
Correct me if I'm wrong here.
It didn't necessarily performgreat when it came out.
Yeah.
So for all those things said,how do you guys feel about its

(01:53:13):
place in cinema history?
Generally, do you feel like itshould be?
be more known more revered andthen more specifically how do
you feel about it in terms ofscorsese's career

SPEAKER_06 (01:53:25):
i mean i think it's earned it's it's a bit of a cult
classic it's in the criterioncollection um and scorsese's
such a legacy filmmaker thatpeople now go back and look at
everything he's done and so ithink it's found i think it's
found its place um I think it'sactually cool that it, it would

(01:53:47):
have been weird if this had beenlike a hit, right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:53:53):
It's like nobody wants,

SPEAKER_06 (01:53:56):
you know, nobody wants their favorite, like punk
alternative band to becomeTaylor Swift.
And I don't want after hours tobecome the Avengers, you know,
it's, it's meant it's, it's partof its weirdness, part of it's
like, um, individualism, youknow, is the fact that it's
loved so deeply by a small groupof people.

(01:54:18):
I mean, that's the truth of anycult film, right?
You want, you know, that's partof what makes them fun is the
fact that there are, you know,there are this sort of
like-minded group of cinematicmisfits who have discovered this
thing and love it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:54:32):
We liked it before it was cool kind of situation.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
It

SPEAKER_06 (01:54:38):
sits there very nicely.
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (01:54:40):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 (01:54:41):
I

SPEAKER_02 (01:54:44):
mean, I don't know his body of work as well as
Dustin does.
I agree with you, Anna, that itdoes feel different from...
other Scorsese movies in a lotof ways.
But I also, I think it deservesan important place.
And I think it deserves to be inthe Criterion Collection.

(01:55:05):
I love rewatching it.
Just like you guys said, it isgreatly rewatchable.
I can totally understand if youhadn't known Scorsese, or if you
knew some Scorsese films andwere coming to this new, that
you would expect lots morebloodbaths.
So of course you guys wouldnotice that everyone was going
to get shot up.
That makes a lot of sense to me.
And I haven't thought about thatin a while because I have seen
it many times.

(01:55:26):
Let

SPEAKER_05 (01:55:28):
me get that one guy shot up in the...
Yeah,

SPEAKER_04 (01:55:30):
if that's legit, then that really did...
He's consistent in that regard.
I just thought of a

SPEAKER_06 (01:55:37):
better answer to your question, actually.
Sure,

SPEAKER_02 (01:55:40):
sure.
Go

SPEAKER_06 (01:55:41):
for it.
The film itself answers yourquestion, I think, which is the
ending of the movie Derek wasalluding that how it was
changed.
So he's in the plaster and thenhe gets, he falls out of the
back of this van and the plasterbreaks open and he gets up and
he realizes he's back at hiswork.
His terrible, his terrible,meaningless job.

(01:56:03):
And the gates are open and hegoes in to start another day.
And this is very, this is again,very Kafka-esque, right?
But it's, there's also this,There's also this song that's
featured very prominently, thisPeggy Lee movie, Is That All
There Is, right?
Yes.
Which is a song about how thiswoman watching her house burn
down and she doesn't care.

(01:56:23):
And the movie doesn't care.
It's like the movie is saying,you know, it's sort of empty,
but that's the beauty of it.
He goes back in to sit down atwork and you're like, nothing
that happened mattered, right?
Nothing happened.
It doesn't matter anything thathappened.
The world of the movie has thisvery cold indifference to

(01:56:49):
everything that goes on insideit.
If you take that outside themovie itself, it's like, who
cares?
He was making the movie becausehe just wanted to work because
he was so depressed.
It was a very low-budget movie.
It didn't have to performparticularly well in order to be
profitable um so you know it allit doesn't matter it just is

(01:57:11):
what it is there's no stakes tothis film um because it's you
know it's a dream

SPEAKER_02 (01:57:17):
i guess for all that though i you know back to what
you guys were saying earlierabout whether you like him or
not i feel like that endingfeels a little relatable for
those of us who have like nineto five jobs you know i feel i
feel a lot of human empathy forpaul even if maybe we don't
always like his choices orbehaviors you know you're like,

(01:57:37):
I've been there.
I have that feeling.

SPEAKER_04 (01:57:41):
I thought that was a beautiful way to end the film.
It felt like it put a greatlittle button on the way it
started and the way it bookendedit very well, I felt.
And if I may, I think...
Sorry, go ahead.
No, I'm just really curious.
This isn't so much a questionas...

(01:58:02):
I don't know if you guys pickedup on this.
So like...
you know, we're Gen Xers aswell.
And I'm curious for youngergenerations as paper mache, like
paper mache was actually prettybig when I was a kid.
But I was like, I wonder ifpeople watch this film.
They're like, what the hell arethey doing?
Like, because I don't know ifpaper mache is a

SPEAKER_05 (01:58:21):
thing.
That's so funny.
There was so much of it.
So

SPEAKER_04 (01:58:24):
much

SPEAKER_02 (01:58:25):
paper mache.

SPEAKER_06 (01:58:26):
There's never been more paper mache

SPEAKER_01 (01:58:28):
in a

SPEAKER_02 (01:58:29):
movie.
I never thought about that.
That's so funny.

SPEAKER_06 (01:58:32):
It's peak paper mache.

SPEAKER_02 (01:58:35):
I guess the 80s was a paper mache decade.
I never thought about that.
Entire studios of it.
Yes.
Oh my God.
We made all our

SPEAKER_06 (01:58:45):
homecoming floats out of it.
That's the only time I rememberworking with it as a kid.
We had a Jaws themed float andwe made a gigantic 30-foot shark
out of papier-mâché.
I

SPEAKER_02 (01:58:58):
mean, it was good times, you know?
Yeah, good times.
It was the 80s,

SPEAKER_06 (01:59:00):
man.

SPEAKER_02 (01:59:02):
You know what's funny, too?
Thinking about the papier-mâché,as you guys were talking earlier
about, is this a dream or not?
It occurred to me He's goingthere.
Well, they keep talking aboutthis bagel made out of paper
mache.
So it's like a real thing, butit's made out of paper mache,
right?
It's like a little microcosm ofthe movie in that paper mache.
And then it

SPEAKER_06 (01:59:20):
shows up in Terry Garr's apartment.
She's got one.
And she's holding it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:59:25):
You can't eat it, but it looks like it's real,
right?
Like it's, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:59:29):
Yeah.
Classic.
Well,

SPEAKER_04 (01:59:31):
I just want to say again, this has been a truly
wonderful conversation.
Derek and I, I've had a smile onmy face the entire time.
It's been super fun.
And just thank you to both ofyou for coming on the show,
wanting to talk about thisgreat, introducing us to this
film.
We really are so appreciative ofthat.

(01:59:53):
And before we sign off, I justwanted to throw it over to both
of you if there's anything thatyou wanted to talk about to
share with our listeners.

SPEAKER_06 (02:00:03):
Well, we'll just plug the show.
Sure.
Yeah.
So Lisa and I do a weekly showcalled The Long Rewind.
It comes out every Wednesdaymorning.
You can find it on all of thepodcast apps.
Just search The Long Rewind.
Our little thumbnail looks likea little videotape with the
title of the podcast on it.

(02:00:23):
And we have a slightly differentformat than the show.
We don't do a movie format.
an episode or anything, we sortof look at a different trend or
a genre or a grouping of movies.
Um, or we talk about the sort offilm going experience itself.
Like we do, we did an episode onvideo stores.

(02:00:43):
We do, you know, we're going tolook at the rise of multiplexes,
um, sort of how we, how youfound and consumed movies.
And we look at like sort ofmovie adjacent things like music
videos and TV movies.
And, uh, We're seeking to do adeep dive into the culture of

(02:01:03):
the 80s, the political, culturalelements that inform the cinema
and ask the question, why werethese movies being made and why
were they so popular?
What can we say cumulativelyabout the Reagan era in terms of
the film it produced?

SPEAKER_02 (02:01:20):
Plus, we can't help but- talk about our top tens and
our favorites, right?
So we also just talk about ourfavorites and try to introduce
people to maybe some films theyhadn't heard of, which is, we
love that we were able tointroduce you to this because
that's just like one of ourfavorite things to do is to
introduce people to stuff theyhaven't seen.

SPEAKER_04 (02:01:39):
Well, we will 100% drop your podcast in our show
notes as well as all your otherinfo.
And you guys, just thank youagain.
This has been such a pleasurefor us.
Oh, thank you.
Thanks for having us on.
We had a great time.
Thank

SPEAKER_02 (02:01:52):
you.

SPEAKER_04 (02:01:53):
Lisa, Dustin, thank you so much for an amazing
conversation.
It was...
Really fun to talk to them aboutthis film.

SPEAKER_05 (02:02:01):
Yes, it was.
And thank you again for thesuggestion.
Oh, 100%.
Yes.
For nominating, offering up thismovie to

SPEAKER_01 (02:02:09):
like.
Nominating

SPEAKER_05 (02:02:10):
this

SPEAKER_01 (02:02:10):
film.

UNKNOWN (02:02:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (02:02:13):
For compelling us to watch this movie.

SPEAKER_04 (02:02:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
Because it was great.
We've, like, this film has comeup just in us talking about, you
know, people who have worked onother films.
Yeah.
And we've talked about, like,doing this film at some point.
We just never pulled thetrigger.
And so I'm glad that we finallydid.
And it was a great way toexperience this film by getting
to talk about it with them.
Absolutely.
So we talked about this withthem in terms of watching the

(02:02:39):
film again.

SPEAKER_05 (02:02:39):
Yes, I think I would just because, you know, as we
talked about with them, I was soexcited.
anxious watching it, wonderingwhat kind of movie is this?
Yeah.
Like, is it a comedy?
Am I about to see this guysuffer a fate worse than death
and just be trapped in plasterat the end?
So now that I kind of know thefilm's trajectory, I would

(02:03:01):
definitely watch it again justbecause I might be relaxed
enough to get a little bit moreout of it or see things that I
missed the first time.

SPEAKER_04 (02:03:08):
Agreed.
Yeah.
Same.
And Call to action.
I mean, like, look, this is abig part of our conversation
with Lisa and Dustin in termsof.
Familiarity with other Scorsesefilms

SPEAKER_01 (02:03:24):
and maybe

SPEAKER_04 (02:03:24):
I again, I'm not I don't want to speak on your
behalf, but like what myexpectation was of this film
with what I knew of his otherhis other work.
That's why I

SPEAKER_05 (02:03:34):
was so anxious the whole

SPEAKER_04 (02:03:34):
time.
Yeah.
And and probably not being usedto Scorsese comedy.
Um, so Scorsese style comedy,even

SPEAKER_05 (02:03:45):
like his movies will have like comedic elements, but
those are just like, becausethey're like stories with humans
who like will occasionallyencounter moments of levity or
comedy, but it's not likestrictly speaking a comedy per
se for the whole movie.

SPEAKER_04 (02:04:02):
And I don't have exhaustive knowledge of all of
his work, but of what I know,maybe it's the comedy in this
film for me comes closest tolike, I know Wolf of Wall Street
has really dark humor at timesas well.
Yeah.
So maybe that's for me the mostcomparable, but for me, it's

(02:04:23):
probably silence.

SPEAKER_05 (02:04:25):
Maybe

SPEAKER_04 (02:04:26):
not.
We didn't even, we didn'tactually, did we watch his
version?
We watched, we watched, we didhis version and then the
original.
Yeah.
Okay.
There you go.
So I would love to know, howmany people have seen this work
and how they feel it stacks upwith his other films.

SPEAKER_05 (02:04:44):
That's way better than mine.
Mine was just going to be howmany people get in a cab and
just wave their money around orleave it in a place where

SPEAKER_04 (02:04:51):
it can fly out the window.
Who does that?
Nobody does that.
I'm sorry.
We talked about that too.
It's like you start pulling onthese threads with films.
It's like, I don't really knowif I buy that.
You just put your money.
I don't ever recall.
I've been in cabs before.
I don't recall you putting yourmoney in a little dish.

SPEAKER_05 (02:05:07):
Okay.
So we've established that no onedoes that.
So we'll just go with your callto action.

SPEAKER_04 (02:05:13):
Okay.
So if you want to reach out,we'd love to.
love to hear from you you canreach out through Facebook
Instagram or blue sky it's thesame handle at all three it is
at 80s montage pod and 80s is ateight zero s at

SPEAKER_05 (02:05:26):
sneak

SPEAKER_04 (02:05:29):
peek

SPEAKER_05 (02:05:30):
yeah

SPEAKER_04 (02:05:31):
so no joke I've talked about this movie so much
and I've seen it so much that Iwas like we haven't done it like
I couldn't like most films likeoh I know exactly if we've done
it on the show or not but Ithink because we've totally
talked Nice, nice.
I like that little, that little,yeah, you did real well there.
So I don't think I even need togive you a clue.

SPEAKER_05 (02:05:55):
I mean, for sure.
You don't have to give me a

SPEAKER_04 (02:05:56):
clue this

SPEAKER_05 (02:05:58):
time.
I already know.
It's Valley Girl.

SPEAKER_04 (02:06:00):
It sure is.
I'm finally, I mean, I say that,but we make all the choices on
this show of what movies we'regoing to cover.
It's true.
We just haven't gotten around toit.
And I love this movie so much.
Like, totally.
And it's totally rad.
And I'm really excited tofinally cover it.

SPEAKER_05 (02:06:23):
I'm excited to finally watch it.

SPEAKER_04 (02:06:26):
Have you actually not watched it?

SPEAKER_05 (02:06:27):
Nope.
Not even a scene?
No, I've seen scenes.

SPEAKER_04 (02:06:32):
I know you've seen scenes because I have it on all
the time.

SPEAKER_05 (02:06:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (02:06:35):
But I am very excited to cover this movie.
It is another very early NicolasCage film.
And yeah.
So in the meantime, thank you toeverybody for hanging with us.
We...
Appreciate so much that of allthe choices you have out there

(02:06:57):
for podcasts that you are tuningin to hang with us.
And we will talk to you again intwo weeks time.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

Cardiac Cowboys

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}After Hours

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

Cardiac Cowboys

All Episodes

After Hours

On Purpose with Jay Shetty