June 6, 2025 • 25 mins
The wait is over for our review The Last of Us Season 2! On the menu: Overall Season 2 thoughts, how it measures up to the game, strengths & weaknesses in the writing, Shimmer’s status, infected evolution, and more!
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(00:00) - Intro & Update
(01:41) - Season 2 Overall Thoughts
(03:12) - Scared To Go Too Far &. Ellie
(12:00) - Season 2s Structure & Abby
(18:34) - Was It Too Big?
(22:57) - Final Thoughts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
In the words of Céline Dion, I'malive.
Tell them that, not me. I'm alive.
Oh, and I'm also Derek, and that's Noah.
And you're listening to a bite of where we are talking about
(00:21):
basically the conclusion of Season 2 of The Last of Us.
Yeah, we're finally back. We took a little hiatus.
Derek unfortunately had some very scary health issues that
came out of nowhere. Almost died.
Yeah, right before 40. We celebrated his 40th this past
weekend, so, you know, why not? I made it, Yeah, that's the
important part. If you would like to know kind
(00:42):
of the full story, our Patreon members kind of know about it
'cause we've been updating them a little bit, but on our
socials, so the bearded duo and stuff like that, we've shared
it. Derek kind of laid it all out
there. The.
TLDR version of it though is that I have a stent in my heart,
but if you want the whole story.Go to our socials.
Yeah. But in that time, the rest of
(01:02):
the season of The Last of Us happened.
And so we're here today to kind of just do a general thought
about the rest of the season. We're not going episode by
episode. We're not breaking it down by
that way. We're just going to kind of
throw our thoughts out there about yeah.
Kind of like a season 2 review, if you will.
Love when it rhymes. We have two things that are
doing that, Doctor Who and The Last of Us.
(01:24):
We're kind of doing both of them.
So we will be having a Doctor Who season 2 or wrap up episode
as well. Yeah.
Oh, and the life of Chuck. Oh, we got to see that.
I got to talk to Karen Gillan. Bucket list item checked.
So look out for that. That will also be coming out in
the next week. So we're back.
We're back. Yes, spoilers.
(01:45):
Lots of spoilers ahead. Lots and lots of spoilers.
So let us officially take a biteof The Last of Us Season 2.
So let's just jump right in. Thoughts.
Our final bite into The Last of Us thoughts.
So we we missed a few episodes, right?
And in those episodes there was a big flashback episode and we
got the conclusion of the seasonthat then we'll lead into day
(02:08):
one and Abby's perspective, right?
We knew that this season was gonna be split from Abby being
in Season 3, and we have Ellie in Season 2.
And Dina, I would say I think she's equally a part of this
perspective. I think it's not as good as the
first season, and I don't mean to kind of start in a negative,
but that's just really what I left this season feeling.
(02:31):
The second game is bigger, it's more complex, there's a lot of
nuances, and for me, it really hinged on the writing and
structure, and it could make himbreak it.
And I feel like it's just like, it didn't really get over that
hump for me. But saying that, performances,
music, everything was there fromthe first season, right?
(02:52):
Yeah. I think this season in a way
felt kind of like BJ and AJ before Joel and after Joel,
right? And so I think that was a big
turning point for our charactershere.
Obviously one of them isn't alive anymore.
We've covered that already, but.You know, we can always talk
about him. Yeah, that's true.
Whenever we can, we talk about Pedro Pascal.
(03:14):
But my and I, and I don't know how that worked necessarily.
And I know that's a part of the game.
And so one of the things that I was wondering is as a person who
played the game right, and I agree, I didn't think that the
season was as strong as the first season.
And I'm almost wondering, like the the first season did a
really great job of taking a video game and creating and
making it into a show. Do you think that because that
(03:37):
second game was so large and so complex, it made it more
difficult for them to do that and therefore that's why this
might have faltered a little bit?
No, I don't think the length of the game was the issue.
I think it was them not committing to going and doing
what the game did. And by that I mean it seems like
(04:00):
they were too scared to go full into the darkness.
I mean, I surprisingly, Part 2 is so much darker.
You, you learn a lot about griefand what that means and stuff,
but it's so much darker than thefirst one because you have Ellie
setting out for revenge and you have Abby doing the same thing.
So obviously this whole thing's about revenge, we said it many,
many times. Even the show said it too many
(04:22):
times. Like really guys, it's about
revenge but also feel bad about it.
But what I what I mean by that is like in a particular scene I
think is the best way to describe this is when Ellie
finds Owen and Mel in the show, Ellie accidentally kills Mel,
inadvertently killing the child that she has right and killing
(04:43):
Owen because Owen was going to shoot her.
So it was more like a self-defense thing.
In the game a similar ish thing happens but it's more with
knives and guns, right? And Ellie proactively slash,
kind of defends herself, kills Owen and also kills Mel.
So it wasn't like it was an accident.
And the reason why I point this out is because that's where I
(05:05):
was really like, they are so scared to show Ellie doing
something with intent of sendingout to do her mission, right?
We saw what she did to Nora, which I think is, you know,
brutal and stuff like that. But then when we get to this
other stuff, I'm like, why are you so scared?
And it's that's why I think likethat's a big part that was
missing because I think we needed to see Ellie develop in
(05:26):
some type of way to go down the spiral, which is the entire
point of her arc. And we didn't get.
That so it really wasn't the complexity of the game, it was
more the the feel of the game and the sort of depths that the
game went to. Well, right.
And what took our character, Ellie, where she went?
And I feel like we didn't get that almost the beginning of the
(05:48):
season to the end of the season,Ellie didn't change at all.
There was no character development.
Oh I I don't want to say development, but like as far as
where her character should be for this story, nothing really
changed. I have to say that that scene
with Owen and Mel, I, I was like, if she has to give this
(06:09):
woman AC section and then has tocarry a, a newborn baby around
with her. I'm like, this show has
officially jumped the shark. So I was glad that that didn't
happen. But you know, it's interesting
that you say like you, you feel like they didn't go there
because I mean, I, I understand what you're saying, but what's
what's something that's been sticking with me so much is that
(06:31):
there was so much violence in this second season and a lot of
like torturous violence even in how Joel died and how Nora was
killed. I almost felt like by the end of
the season, I was numb to it. Even with the season ending with
Jesse, who's like our every man,who's our guy for the good
(06:53):
getting shot in the head, in theface.
I was kind of like, whoa. And I see the thing it's like in
the game, I hate saying that. I feel like I've said it a lot,
but you know, you're you're playing through the story and
obviously it's a game, right? You have to go through levels
and you have to do things and there has to be enemies.
So there's infected and wolves, whatever.
(07:15):
So you're you're murdering a bunch of people on the way.
And so I think what was a weird disconnect and I, I think from
people that did play the game and I have heard from people
that didn't play the game and watching this, is that like
while it was violent in some of those areas, a lot of the
situations with violence, it's like Ellie wasn't necessarily
(07:36):
enacting them. And she didn't really get out of
those situations or overcome them herself.
It was always somebody helping her, somebody saving her.
And again, this is like the biggest tick for me for this
season was the writing of Ellie.I don't think Bella Ramsey
(07:56):
fantastic. They are great actor and I don't
think this is a fault to them. I think it was the writing.
They made Ellie completely incompetent in this season,
which I thought was a weird choice.
Like maybe make her that way leading up to Joel's death and
then or no, maybe in the first episode because then we get the
five years later. So then after that she needs to
(08:18):
grow a little bit. And then even after Joel's
death, but it didn't really happen, and we have Dina here
kind of being the smartest and being like, no, you can't just
walk into the wolf's territory. We have to make a plan.
You don't know how to triangulate on a map.
It was just so bizarre to me where I'm like, we don't have to
write her this way. And meanwhile, like, if you
think about it, we were in a waytold that Ellie is actually a
(08:41):
really great scout, right? She's so young, she's going out.
They can sort of trust her with some things.
I mean, she's hot headed and goes off the rails.
But once her and Dina start their journey to Seattle, it all
completely falls apart. Yeah, yeah, I think that three
month jump was a big detriment to the season as well, because
nothing really changed with Ellie.
(09:02):
We got one screaming scene with us to deal with this grief and
we didn't really see it with theother characters.
I think that like there was weird rushing in sections that
shouldn't have had rushing, but it would have benefit the season
a little bit for us to sit with that grief and for Ellie to
change a little bit. Because in prior to that, she's
like joking. And you know, the scene with
(09:22):
Dina at the the Mart where she meets the soccer for the first
time, like they're like, you know, they're joking, but she
still does that even after Joel's death.
So it was almost like it would have been more impactful if,
like, Dina made a joke and Elliedidn't really laugh because, I
don't know, her character changed in a certain way.
That's just it. It's a weird writing thing, but
(09:43):
I just felt like it could have used more.
I it almost felt like, you know,with Joel now being out of the
picture, that was one of the things that I was thinking so
much is what is the Last of Us without Joel?
And instead of Ellie then havingto become her own adult, right,
she kind of just became a bumbling fool bent on revenge,
(10:04):
right? Making like really silly
decisions. And, and one of the things that
you had mentioned before of how Ellie kind of really didn't get
herself out of situations sometimes.
And in that last episode, there was a whole scene that I was
just kind of wondering why it needed to happen.
And maybe you can shine some light on this to me.
So she is, she gets in a boat and she's going to the aquarium,
(10:27):
right? Because that's where she
believes Abby is the. Whale and wheel.
Yes, And then a wave comes, she gets washed ashore.
She's taken captive by the Sarahfight, she's almost has her
entrails taken out, and then there's a big boom and then she
escapes again. She's back on the boat.
And while it was scary to see how evil that little girl was,
did we necessarily need that scene?
(10:49):
It just felt like a really weirdbump in the road that was
written in because maybe it happened in the game.
Yeah, well, there's, well, a lotmore to the Seraphights.
And, you know, the game is splitbetween Abby and Ellie's
perspective. And when we get to Abby's
perspective, I feel like there'sgoing to be a lot more
Seraphight action. But they needed to remind us
it's a season finale. Like, hey, the Seraphights are
(11:09):
here. Just like that weird interaction
with Isaac and being like, where's Abby?
Are you in love with her? It was such a weird thing of us.
Like, oh, we have to get reminded that these people still
exist. Yeah.
I mean, I I don't think it needed to happen.
I just think it was raising stakes, but that that was one of
(11:30):
the biggest scenes were like in my head.
I'm like, she kind of got out ofit from another circumstance,
which I think is fine, but for it to happen a lot.
And then also Ellie without Dinain this, just as she wouldn't
have survived as long, which is again, fine, but we have to have
our main character living through all of this being an
apocalypse baby. She has to be like competent in
(11:54):
some things. Like she really wanted to go
scouting and Joel taught her howto do all of that, but then she
wanted to just hurry up and do it.
So it's like, did you learn anything?
And that's not the character they wrote her like that.
But I think like what you're talking about was that was like
a structural thing, which kind of that's like my second big
thing with the season is just structurally, I think it was a
(12:17):
mess. I I think having the flashback
episode, the price, while it's afantastic and beautiful episode,
it shouldn't have been where it was.
We have what, 7 episodes this season, which don't get me
started on the streaming, the shortness of seasons.
I think that should have been the first episode of the season
(12:38):
then leading into everything andthen Joel passing away because
it was just such a weird place to put it.
I don't know how they wanted us to feel about Ellie and Abby.
They kind of told us how we're supposed to feel, but took out
all of us getting there ourselves.
It was, it was almost like they thought that we were supposed to
be shocked that Ellie knew what he did, right?
(13:01):
Because that's where it left offwith Nora, where she's like, I
know. And then it was like, oh,
flashback episode. We, we got told it too many
times, you know, and the thing, the reason why it works so well
in the game is because you go through everything.
You go through everything to then realize that not only did
Joel never know why Abby killed him, but also you find out that
(13:25):
Abby took away Joel from Ellie being able to reconcile that
relationship and Joel took away Ellie's ability to save the
human race. So there's a lot of taking from
Ellie, and that's why she goes on this path.
So for them to kind of be like, this is what you're supposed to
feel about this. You're supposed to sympathize
with Abby right away. I feel like it's weird.
(13:46):
It's a weird, it was just a weird thing to do.
Like structurally, like we didn't need that beginning scene
with Abby. We're getting a whole season of
her. So like, I don't know.
But Caitlin Deaver, I'm I'm still on the Abbey boat with
her. I still think she's fantastic.
And you know, one of my qualms about the season is that we
actually didn't get enough Caitlin Deaver.
I thought, right, we're we, we follow Ellie and Dina into
(14:10):
Seattle and they're witnessing this war between the Seraphytes
and the and the wolves, which really has absolutely nothing to
do with them. And I understand that they're
looking for Abby, and that's part of the journey.
But they run into it. But not to see Abby at all.
You know, I felt like we could have used time to have just a
little bit of Abby sprinkled in there.
(14:31):
I. Almost and I I agree but I also
disagree only in that I think wegot too much of Abby in the
beginning with us being like they killed my father.
Weird for us to know that right away.
Her monologuing for like 7-8 minutes before killing Joel too
much. I think it would have been more
(14:52):
effective for literally her to get Joel, kill him and then
bounce and then the next thing we see is what we saw at the end
of Seattle day one. Then it's Abby's perspective.
That's it. You know, I, I just think that
would have been more effective of, like, not telling us how
we're supposed to feel about this, not giving us the answers
to things and just being like, sitting with this emotion and
(15:14):
being like, well, I'm here with Ellie, like, yeah, these people
are bad. And then slowly finding out, oh,
these people aren't bad. Yeah, Joel did the bad decision.
Yeah. You know, I, I just think that
that would have been more effective because then I think
it just makes us be like, I, I guess I'm supposed to root for
both of them. Totally.
You know, totally. And it even seems like at the
(15:35):
end of the season that Abby is not necessarily where she
thought she would be or she's not really surrounded by the
people she thought she was surrounded by.
So it is weird that we are goingto kind of be with her at the
beginning of next season. There is a lot that happens.
So I, I am curious how they're going to mesh it together.
And I'm almost wondering if I think there's a fourth season.
(15:58):
I think they had said maybe I could be wrong, but like the
conclusion is going to be the fourth season with both of them.
So I'm I'm I am curious of like how much of Ellie we're going to
see because we're going back to day one, which structurally I
think that's fine. It works.
But I guess yeah, we'll see. Are we going to have so much
Abby in that one, which there's a lot that happens.
(16:20):
Well, I'm just. Going to say maybe shame on me,
but like, I could probably use alittle less.
Ellie could probably use. I mean, I love Dina, but she
kind of got sidelined in the last couple episodes.
She was just in the theater. I mean, granted, she got an
arrow through the leg and then she found out that Ellie was a
complete liar, but it was kind of like, oh, Dina, who we love
(16:41):
so much, kind of just turned into a helpless person.
Yeah, I mean, I think they they need, they had to do that.
And I put that in quotes becausethe ending was really like, how
are we going to get Ellie to thepoint where she needs to get
before we pick up on Abby, whichis unfortunate.
And then they really made us love Jesse, like, right at the
end just to kill him, which I think is like The Walking Dead
(17:04):
syndrome. I that's I they think there's a
better example. But like in Walking Dead, you
always knew when somebody was going to die.
When it's like, oh, we're getting a lot of this person out
of nowhere. Yeah.
And there's like, they're like on stage and they're like, you
know what? We have come to a common
understanding of each other. I guess we're just a yin and a
Yang situation. Shake on it, you know.
(17:25):
Well, and that I think it was a weird place to leave Ellie or a
bringer to because she right in that the the auditorium with
Jessie, she was going to leave because of what she did to Mel
and Owen, which I'm not saying she shouldn't feel a certain way
about that. She should.
But I don't know. It's just such a awkward.
(17:47):
We're not the the scene in town hall when all of these strangers
are literally telling us what the theme of the story is and
then constantly making us not want to be on that ride, but
then dragging us along with it. I think it's so weird.
And I think for Ellie to come tothat conclusion at the stage
(18:09):
with Jesse, it's like, what did you think this?
Like, no, you're supposed to like, you're not supposed to
lose sight of this vision here. Like, yeah, there should be some
internal conflict, but like, I don't think you've done enough
yet. Yeah.
What are you actually doing in this?
Totally. You know, I'm, I'm, I don't mean
to be like so negative. I think I cuz I just so I'm so
(18:30):
passionate and I love this storyso much that I just wanted it to
be the the like the first seasonagain and maybe the story was a
little too ambitious. And it's, and that's what I was
just going to say, that I felt like things just got too big.
Like, I almost wonder, like in looking at the grand scheme of
this season for our main character, did we necessarily
(18:51):
need WLF and the Seraphytes? They were like these weird side
stories and these people torturing each other, popping up
left and right. And I understand it shows the
brutality of the world that they're living in, but how did
it actually affect Ellie? Well, right.
And I think it was just more to show like, there's other things
happening, right? But I, I, I, I, I like that
(19:13):
thought. Because what if we didn't really
see anything and we're just literally in Ellie's
perspective, we don't see anything else that she kind of
stumbles upon this stuff or whatever.
And then we get all of that stuff with Abby because that's
really Abby's story. A lot of that does that, and
Ellie kind of just converges into that.
(19:33):
So I think with that mindset, itmight have been more effective
if we didn't really get as much as we did, or just bits and
pieces, right. Because if you think about it,
we have this horrible torture scene with Isaac.
We see kind of how ruthless Isaac has become.
But yet in this season, Isaac and Ellie have absolutely no
interaction. You know who else who he doesn't
(19:55):
have interaction with Abby. So it's like our two sort of
main characters in this season and and as a structure.
I mean, I'm I'm I'm thinking that it'll come to a head maybe
next season, right. But to introduce it all so early
for it to not mean anything to Ellie's storyline in in this
season felt like. We're just throwing it in there
(20:15):
because we need. To I I think what this season
did, one of its really big downfalls is it it told us a lot
and didn't show us. I think I had said this a little
bit in some of the episodes whenwe're doing episode episode, but
it's like it kind of oddly feelshand holdy like.
And that goes back to like just my main point of like, you guys
(20:36):
were scared. If you're going to do a story
like this, you have to lean intoit.
Noah said. Make us think.
Make us think. But also, like, don't give us
all the answers. If we're supposed to have a
whole nother season with Abby, let me figure that out.
Like, let me have those decisions.
And I think what was really coolabout the first season is that
that was a complete story. That was a complete arc, right?
(20:58):
Of course, it left off with like, Ellie thinks that Joel's
lying. He did lie, but it left it at
that, right? And this one we're just left
with kind of, OK, so like, what now?
Like, why? Why are we here now?
Like, why, Why do I care about Abby?
And why do I care about this? And, and back to your earlier
(21:18):
point, and especially speaking about Abby, first of all, who I,
I, I would love to know who the first one to ever write a
villain monologuing all of theircomplete intent and plans going
forward, because that trend has been trending hard.
But if, if she hadn't have done that right, we we would have
been left wondering, who is thisperson that killed Joel?
(21:38):
But then I think by the end of the season, with us finding out
that Ellie knew what happened, we might have been able, like
you said, to piece that togetherfor ourselves.
Or at least have questions, right, right.
For them to be like, Joel killedher dad.
It's like, oh, well, shit, that sucks.
Like, OK, yeah, I feel bad abouther.
(21:59):
But the whole, I mean, what madethe story so great originally is
that you hate this person and then you're starting to find out
like, oh, there literally is another side to the story.
Oh, Ellie did kind of know something like, so who's in the
wrong here? I I like that kind of
storytelling. I like the ones where it's not
clear. I don't I don't like being told
(22:20):
how to think about something, especially when it comes to
movies in long formats of storytelling.
But I think with the streaming services of being like, you
know, you have to tell a story in this certain amount of time,
it should be the opposite. It should be let me tell the
story in this amount of time, not you have this much budget in
this many episodes. So try to do something right.
I think it's just a complete backwards now way of doing
(22:43):
television. Yeah, and some things are kind
of out of the creator's hands when it comes to studios and
things like that. And so who knows what Max or
HBO, whatever the hell they're calling themselves now.
I will say on a positive note, Iam glad that Jesse did update us
on Shimmer and that they're fine.
They're just still hanging out in the music store.
So I'm very glad about that. Yes, me too.
(23:05):
So I guess final thoughts, if I had to give it a rating out of
533, I I think 3 out of five. God, that seems high.
I'll give it 2.75 spores. OK.
But high point, I loved all of the evolution of the infected.
(23:27):
Oh yeah. That shit was awesome.
Well and see like this show, it still felt like the first show.
It did feel bigger, right, but like it still felt like it.
It looked beautiful. We got the amazing music, acting
is phenomenal. It's just I I hope they learn
right and not learn, but maybe just like maybe that didn't
really work. So how can we make sure that we
(23:49):
tell the story and still come out on the other side of like,
what are you trying to tell us? They.
Definitely have an opportunity here to take this season, which
we didn't love, maybe others did, and make it a bridge from
one really stellar season to another, yeah.
I mean, yeah, let us know. Did you feel the same way?
Did you like it more? Did you not like it as much?
(24:10):
Are we being too harsh on our young heroes and lovers?
Perhaps. I mean I I enjoyed myself but I
had bigger hopes. I know it can be better.
Yeah, I would say I was. I was more entertained by the
first half of the season than I was by the second-half of the
season. And put that that freaking the
price in the beginning. Put it in the beginning.
(24:31):
Noah's going to release his cut of this season.
It's just like that, like the flashbacks, like we're supposed
to be happy for them to like, progressively get Mike Moore
sad. It was just like a weird
headspace to be in. Anyway, Sorry.
Yeah. Let's know what you thought and
then look out for episode on theSeason 2 of Doctor Who.
We have lots of thoughts on thatone.
And then the life of Chuck. I will say, if you're debating
(24:52):
on seeing the life of Chuck, go see it.
Go see it. It's not horror.
So don't think because it's a Mike Flanagan and Stephen King
work. It's horror.
It's not. So go watch it and then lookout
for our review. Thank you for being so patient.
Goodbye.
In the words of Céline Dion, I'malive.
Tell them that, not me. I'm alive.
Oh, and I'm also Derek, and that's Noah.
And you're listening to a bite of where we are talking about
(00:21):
basically the conclusion of Season 2 of The Last of Us.
Yeah, we're finally back. We took a little hiatus.
Derek unfortunately had some very scary health issues that
came out of nowhere. Almost died.
Yeah, right before 40. We celebrated his 40th this past
weekend, so, you know, why not? I made it, Yeah, that's the
important part. If you would like to know kind
(00:42):
of the full story, our Patreon members kind of know about it
'cause we've been updating them a little bit, but on our
socials, so the bearded duo and stuff like that, we've shared
it. Derek kind of laid it all out
there. The.
TLDR version of it though is that I have a stent in my heart,
but if you want the whole story.Go to our socials.
Yeah. But in that time, the rest of
(01:02):
the season of The Last of Us happened.
And so we're here today to kind of just do a general thought
about the rest of the season. We're not going episode by
episode. We're not breaking it down by
that way. We're just going to kind of
throw our thoughts out there about yeah.
Kind of like a season 2 review, if you will.
Love when it rhymes. We have two things that are
doing that, Doctor Who and The Last of Us.
(01:24):
We're kind of doing both of them.
So we will be having a Doctor Who season 2 or wrap up episode
as well. Yeah.
Oh, and the life of Chuck. Oh, we got to see that.
I got to talk to Karen Gillan. Bucket list item checked.
So look out for that. That will also be coming out in
the next week. So we're back.
We're back. Yes, spoilers.
(01:45):
Lots of spoilers ahead. Lots and lots of spoilers.
So let us officially take a biteof The Last of Us Season 2.
So let's just jump right in. Thoughts.
Our final bite into The Last of Us thoughts.
So we we missed a few episodes, right?
And in those episodes there was a big flashback episode and we
got the conclusion of the seasonthat then we'll lead into day
(02:08):
one and Abby's perspective, right?
We knew that this season was gonna be split from Abby being
in Season 3, and we have Ellie in Season 2.
And Dina, I would say I think she's equally a part of this
perspective. I think it's not as good as the
first season, and I don't mean to kind of start in a negative,
but that's just really what I left this season feeling.
(02:31):
The second game is bigger, it's more complex, there's a lot of
nuances, and for me, it really hinged on the writing and
structure, and it could make himbreak it.
And I feel like it's just like, it didn't really get over that
hump for me. But saying that, performances,
music, everything was there fromthe first season, right?
(02:52):
Yeah. I think this season in a way
felt kind of like BJ and AJ before Joel and after Joel,
right? And so I think that was a big
turning point for our charactershere.
Obviously one of them isn't alive anymore.
We've covered that already, but.You know, we can always talk
about him. Yeah, that's true.
Whenever we can, we talk about Pedro Pascal.
(03:14):
But my and I, and I don't know how that worked necessarily.
And I know that's a part of the game.
And so one of the things that I was wondering is as a person who
played the game right, and I agree, I didn't think that the
season was as strong as the first season.
And I'm almost wondering, like the the first season did a
really great job of taking a video game and creating and
making it into a show. Do you think that because that
(03:37):
second game was so large and so complex, it made it more
difficult for them to do that and therefore that's why this
might have faltered a little bit?
No, I don't think the length of the game was the issue.
I think it was them not committing to going and doing
what the game did. And by that I mean it seems like
(04:00):
they were too scared to go full into the darkness.
I mean, I surprisingly, Part 2 is so much darker.
You, you learn a lot about griefand what that means and stuff,
but it's so much darker than thefirst one because you have Ellie
setting out for revenge and you have Abby doing the same thing.
So obviously this whole thing's about revenge, we said it many,
many times. Even the show said it too many
(04:22):
times. Like really guys, it's about
revenge but also feel bad about it.
But what I what I mean by that is like in a particular scene I
think is the best way to describe this is when Ellie
finds Owen and Mel in the show, Ellie accidentally kills Mel,
inadvertently killing the child that she has right and killing
(04:43):
Owen because Owen was going to shoot her.
So it was more like a self-defense thing.
In the game a similar ish thing happens but it's more with
knives and guns, right? And Ellie proactively slash,
kind of defends herself, kills Owen and also kills Mel.
So it wasn't like it was an accident.
And the reason why I point this out is because that's where I
(05:05):
was really like, they are so scared to show Ellie doing
something with intent of sendingout to do her mission, right?
We saw what she did to Nora, which I think is, you know,
brutal and stuff like that. But then when we get to this
other stuff, I'm like, why are you so scared?
And it's that's why I think likethat's a big part that was
missing because I think we needed to see Ellie develop in
(05:26):
some type of way to go down the spiral, which is the entire
point of her arc. And we didn't get.
That so it really wasn't the complexity of the game, it was
more the the feel of the game and the sort of depths that the
game went to. Well, right.
And what took our character, Ellie, where she went?
And I feel like we didn't get that almost the beginning of the
(05:48):
season to the end of the season,Ellie didn't change at all.
There was no character development.
Oh I I don't want to say development, but like as far as
where her character should be for this story, nothing really
changed. I have to say that that scene
with Owen and Mel, I, I was like, if she has to give this
(06:09):
woman AC section and then has tocarry a, a newborn baby around
with her. I'm like, this show has
officially jumped the shark. So I was glad that that didn't
happen. But you know, it's interesting
that you say like you, you feel like they didn't go there
because I mean, I, I understand what you're saying, but what's
what's something that's been sticking with me so much is that
(06:31):
there was so much violence in this second season and a lot of
like torturous violence even in how Joel died and how Nora was
killed. I almost felt like by the end of
the season, I was numb to it. Even with the season ending with
Jesse, who's like our every man,who's our guy for the good
(06:53):
getting shot in the head, in theface.
I was kind of like, whoa. And I see the thing it's like in
the game, I hate saying that. I feel like I've said it a lot,
but you know, you're you're playing through the story and
obviously it's a game, right? You have to go through levels
and you have to do things and there has to be enemies.
So there's infected and wolves, whatever.
(07:15):
So you're you're murdering a bunch of people on the way.
And so I think what was a weird disconnect and I, I think from
people that did play the game and I have heard from people
that didn't play the game and watching this, is that like
while it was violent in some of those areas, a lot of the
situations with violence, it's like Ellie wasn't necessarily
(07:36):
enacting them. And she didn't really get out of
those situations or overcome them herself.
It was always somebody helping her, somebody saving her.
And again, this is like the biggest tick for me for this
season was the writing of Ellie.I don't think Bella Ramsey
(07:56):
fantastic. They are great actor and I don't
think this is a fault to them. I think it was the writing.
They made Ellie completely incompetent in this season,
which I thought was a weird choice.
Like maybe make her that way leading up to Joel's death and
then or no, maybe in the first episode because then we get the
five years later. So then after that she needs to
(08:18):
grow a little bit. And then even after Joel's
death, but it didn't really happen, and we have Dina here
kind of being the smartest and being like, no, you can't just
walk into the wolf's territory. We have to make a plan.
You don't know how to triangulate on a map.
It was just so bizarre to me where I'm like, we don't have to
write her this way. And meanwhile, like, if you
think about it, we were in a waytold that Ellie is actually a
(08:41):
really great scout, right? She's so young, she's going out.
They can sort of trust her with some things.
I mean, she's hot headed and goes off the rails.
But once her and Dina start their journey to Seattle, it all
completely falls apart. Yeah, yeah, I think that three
month jump was a big detriment to the season as well, because
nothing really changed with Ellie.
(09:02):
We got one screaming scene with us to deal with this grief and
we didn't really see it with theother characters.
I think that like there was weird rushing in sections that
shouldn't have had rushing, but it would have benefit the season
a little bit for us to sit with that grief and for Ellie to
change a little bit. Because in prior to that, she's
like joking. And you know, the scene with
(09:22):
Dina at the the Mart where she meets the soccer for the first
time, like they're like, you know, they're joking, but she
still does that even after Joel's death.
So it was almost like it would have been more impactful if,
like, Dina made a joke and Elliedidn't really laugh because, I
don't know, her character changed in a certain way.
That's just it. It's a weird writing thing, but
(09:43):
I just felt like it could have used more.
I it almost felt like, you know,with Joel now being out of the
picture, that was one of the things that I was thinking so
much is what is the Last of Us without Joel?
And instead of Ellie then havingto become her own adult, right,
she kind of just became a bumbling fool bent on revenge,
(10:04):
right? Making like really silly
decisions. And, and one of the things that
you had mentioned before of how Ellie kind of really didn't get
herself out of situations sometimes.
And in that last episode, there was a whole scene that I was
just kind of wondering why it needed to happen.
And maybe you can shine some light on this to me.
So she is, she gets in a boat and she's going to the aquarium,
(10:27):
right? Because that's where she
believes Abby is the. Whale and wheel.
Yes, And then a wave comes, she gets washed ashore.
She's taken captive by the Sarahfight, she's almost has her
entrails taken out, and then there's a big boom and then she
escapes again. She's back on the boat.
And while it was scary to see how evil that little girl was,
did we necessarily need that scene?
(10:49):
It just felt like a really weirdbump in the road that was
written in because maybe it happened in the game.
Yeah, well, there's, well, a lotmore to the Seraphights.
And, you know, the game is splitbetween Abby and Ellie's
perspective. And when we get to Abby's
perspective, I feel like there'sgoing to be a lot more
Seraphight action. But they needed to remind us
it's a season finale. Like, hey, the Seraphights are
(11:09):
here. Just like that weird interaction
with Isaac and being like, where's Abby?
Are you in love with her? It was such a weird thing of us.
Like, oh, we have to get reminded that these people still
exist. Yeah.
I mean, I I don't think it needed to happen.
I just think it was raising stakes, but that that was one of
(11:30):
the biggest scenes were like in my head.
I'm like, she kind of got out ofit from another circumstance,
which I think is fine, but for it to happen a lot.
And then also Ellie without Dinain this, just as she wouldn't
have survived as long, which is again, fine, but we have to have
our main character living through all of this being an
apocalypse baby. She has to be like competent in
(11:54):
some things. Like she really wanted to go
scouting and Joel taught her howto do all of that, but then she
wanted to just hurry up and do it.
So it's like, did you learn anything?
And that's not the character they wrote her like that.
But I think like what you're talking about was that was like
a structural thing, which kind of that's like my second big
thing with the season is just structurally, I think it was a
(12:17):
mess. I I think having the flashback
episode, the price, while it's afantastic and beautiful episode,
it shouldn't have been where it was.
We have what, 7 episodes this season, which don't get me
started on the streaming, the shortness of seasons.
I think that should have been the first episode of the season
(12:38):
then leading into everything andthen Joel passing away because
it was just such a weird place to put it.
I don't know how they wanted us to feel about Ellie and Abby.
They kind of told us how we're supposed to feel, but took out
all of us getting there ourselves.
It was, it was almost like they thought that we were supposed to
be shocked that Ellie knew what he did, right?
(13:01):
Because that's where it left offwith Nora, where she's like, I
know. And then it was like, oh,
flashback episode. We, we got told it too many
times, you know, and the thing, the reason why it works so well
in the game is because you go through everything.
You go through everything to then realize that not only did
Joel never know why Abby killed him, but also you find out that
(13:25):
Abby took away Joel from Ellie being able to reconcile that
relationship and Joel took away Ellie's ability to save the
human race. So there's a lot of taking from
Ellie, and that's why she goes on this path.
So for them to kind of be like, this is what you're supposed to
feel about this. You're supposed to sympathize
with Abby right away. I feel like it's weird.
(13:46):
It's a weird, it was just a weird thing to do.
Like structurally, like we didn't need that beginning scene
with Abby. We're getting a whole season of
her. So like, I don't know.
But Caitlin Deaver, I'm I'm still on the Abbey boat with
her. I still think she's fantastic.
And you know, one of my qualms about the season is that we
actually didn't get enough Caitlin Deaver.
I thought, right, we're we, we follow Ellie and Dina into
(14:10):
Seattle and they're witnessing this war between the Seraphytes
and the and the wolves, which really has absolutely nothing to
do with them. And I understand that they're
looking for Abby, and that's part of the journey.
But they run into it. But not to see Abby at all.
You know, I felt like we could have used time to have just a
little bit of Abby sprinkled in there.
(14:31):
I. Almost and I I agree but I also
disagree only in that I think wegot too much of Abby in the
beginning with us being like they killed my father.
Weird for us to know that right away.
Her monologuing for like 7-8 minutes before killing Joel too
much. I think it would have been more
(14:52):
effective for literally her to get Joel, kill him and then
bounce and then the next thing we see is what we saw at the end
of Seattle day one. Then it's Abby's perspective.
That's it. You know, I, I just think that
would have been more effective of, like, not telling us how
we're supposed to feel about this, not giving us the answers
to things and just being like, sitting with this emotion and
(15:14):
being like, well, I'm here with Ellie, like, yeah, these people
are bad. And then slowly finding out, oh,
these people aren't bad. Yeah, Joel did the bad decision.
Yeah. You know, I, I just think that
that would have been more effective because then I think
it just makes us be like, I, I guess I'm supposed to root for
both of them. Totally.
You know, totally. And it even seems like at the
(15:35):
end of the season that Abby is not necessarily where she
thought she would be or she's not really surrounded by the
people she thought she was surrounded by.
So it is weird that we are goingto kind of be with her at the
beginning of next season. There is a lot that happens.
So I, I am curious how they're going to mesh it together.
And I'm almost wondering if I think there's a fourth season.
(15:58):
I think they had said maybe I could be wrong, but like the
conclusion is going to be the fourth season with both of them.
So I'm I'm I am curious of like how much of Ellie we're going to
see because we're going back to day one, which structurally I
think that's fine. It works.
But I guess yeah, we'll see. Are we going to have so much
Abby in that one, which there's a lot that happens.
(16:20):
Well, I'm just. Going to say maybe shame on me,
but like, I could probably use alittle less.
Ellie could probably use. I mean, I love Dina, but she
kind of got sidelined in the last couple episodes.
She was just in the theater. I mean, granted, she got an
arrow through the leg and then she found out that Ellie was a
complete liar, but it was kind of like, oh, Dina, who we love
(16:41):
so much, kind of just turned into a helpless person.
Yeah, I mean, I think they they need, they had to do that.
And I put that in quotes becausethe ending was really like, how
are we going to get Ellie to thepoint where she needs to get
before we pick up on Abby, whichis unfortunate.
And then they really made us love Jesse, like, right at the
end just to kill him, which I think is like The Walking Dead
(17:04):
syndrome. I that's I they think there's a
better example. But like in Walking Dead, you
always knew when somebody was going to die.
When it's like, oh, we're getting a lot of this person out
of nowhere. Yeah.
And there's like, they're like on stage and they're like, you
know what? We have come to a common
understanding of each other. I guess we're just a yin and a
Yang situation. Shake on it, you know.
(17:25):
Well, and that I think it was a weird place to leave Ellie or a
bringer to because she right in that the the auditorium with
Jessie, she was going to leave because of what she did to Mel
and Owen, which I'm not saying she shouldn't feel a certain way
about that. She should.
But I don't know. It's just such a awkward.
(17:47):
We're not the the scene in town hall when all of these strangers
are literally telling us what the theme of the story is and
then constantly making us not want to be on that ride, but
then dragging us along with it. I think it's so weird.
And I think for Ellie to come tothat conclusion at the stage
(18:09):
with Jesse, it's like, what did you think this?
Like, no, you're supposed to like, you're not supposed to
lose sight of this vision here. Like, yeah, there should be some
internal conflict, but like, I don't think you've done enough
yet. Yeah.
What are you actually doing in this?
Totally. You know, I'm, I'm, I don't mean
to be like so negative. I think I cuz I just so I'm so
(18:30):
passionate and I love this storyso much that I just wanted it to
be the the like the first seasonagain and maybe the story was a
little too ambitious. And it's, and that's what I was
just going to say, that I felt like things just got too big.
Like, I almost wonder, like in looking at the grand scheme of
this season for our main character, did we necessarily
(18:51):
need WLF and the Seraphytes? They were like these weird side
stories and these people torturing each other, popping up
left and right. And I understand it shows the
brutality of the world that they're living in, but how did
it actually affect Ellie? Well, right.
And I think it was just more to show like, there's other things
happening, right? But I, I, I, I, I like that
(19:13):
thought. Because what if we didn't really
see anything and we're just literally in Ellie's
perspective, we don't see anything else that she kind of
stumbles upon this stuff or whatever.
And then we get all of that stuff with Abby because that's
really Abby's story. A lot of that does that, and
Ellie kind of just converges into that.
(19:33):
So I think with that mindset, itmight have been more effective
if we didn't really get as much as we did, or just bits and
pieces, right. Because if you think about it,
we have this horrible torture scene with Isaac.
We see kind of how ruthless Isaac has become.
But yet in this season, Isaac and Ellie have absolutely no
interaction. You know who else who he doesn't
(19:55):
have interaction with Abby. So it's like our two sort of
main characters in this season and and as a structure.
I mean, I'm I'm I'm thinking that it'll come to a head maybe
next season, right. But to introduce it all so early
for it to not mean anything to Ellie's storyline in in this
season felt like. We're just throwing it in there
(20:15):
because we need. To I I think what this season
did, one of its really big downfalls is it it told us a lot
and didn't show us. I think I had said this a little
bit in some of the episodes whenwe're doing episode episode, but
it's like it kind of oddly feelshand holdy like.
And that goes back to like just my main point of like, you guys
(20:36):
were scared. If you're going to do a story
like this, you have to lean intoit.
Noah said. Make us think.
Make us think. But also, like, don't give us
all the answers. If we're supposed to have a
whole nother season with Abby, let me figure that out.
Like, let me have those decisions.
And I think what was really coolabout the first season is that
that was a complete story. That was a complete arc, right?
(20:58):
Of course, it left off with like, Ellie thinks that Joel's
lying. He did lie, but it left it at
that, right? And this one we're just left
with kind of, OK, so like, what now?
Like, why? Why are we here now?
Like, why, Why do I care about Abby?
And why do I care about this? And, and back to your earlier
(21:18):
point, and especially speaking about Abby, first of all, who I,
I, I would love to know who the first one to ever write a
villain monologuing all of theircomplete intent and plans going
forward, because that trend has been trending hard.
But if, if she hadn't have done that right, we we would have
been left wondering, who is thisperson that killed Joel?
(21:38):
But then I think by the end of the season, with us finding out
that Ellie knew what happened, we might have been able, like
you said, to piece that togetherfor ourselves.
Or at least have questions, right, right.
For them to be like, Joel killedher dad.
It's like, oh, well, shit, that sucks.
Like, OK, yeah, I feel bad abouther.
(21:59):
But the whole, I mean, what madethe story so great originally is
that you hate this person and then you're starting to find out
like, oh, there literally is another side to the story.
Oh, Ellie did kind of know something like, so who's in the
wrong here? I I like that kind of
storytelling. I like the ones where it's not
clear. I don't I don't like being told
(22:20):
how to think about something, especially when it comes to
movies in long formats of storytelling.
But I think with the streaming services of being like, you
know, you have to tell a story in this certain amount of time,
it should be the opposite. It should be let me tell the
story in this amount of time, not you have this much budget in
this many episodes. So try to do something right.
I think it's just a complete backwards now way of doing
(22:43):
television. Yeah, and some things are kind
of out of the creator's hands when it comes to studios and
things like that. And so who knows what Max or
HBO, whatever the hell they're calling themselves now.
I will say on a positive note, Iam glad that Jesse did update us
on Shimmer and that they're fine.
They're just still hanging out in the music store.
So I'm very glad about that. Yes, me too.
(23:05):
So I guess final thoughts, if I had to give it a rating out of
533, I I think 3 out of five. God, that seems high.
I'll give it 2.75 spores. OK.
But high point, I loved all of the evolution of the infected.
(23:27):
Oh yeah. That shit was awesome.
Well and see like this show, it still felt like the first show.
It did feel bigger, right, but like it still felt like it.
It looked beautiful. We got the amazing music, acting
is phenomenal. It's just I I hope they learn
right and not learn, but maybe just like maybe that didn't
really work. So how can we make sure that we
(23:49):
tell the story and still come out on the other side of like,
what are you trying to tell us? They.
Definitely have an opportunity here to take this season, which
we didn't love, maybe others did, and make it a bridge from
one really stellar season to another, yeah.
I mean, yeah, let us know. Did you feel the same way?
Did you like it more? Did you not like it as much?
(24:10):
Are we being too harsh on our young heroes and lovers?
Perhaps. I mean I I enjoyed myself but I
had bigger hopes. I know it can be better.
Yeah, I would say I was. I was more entertained by the
first half of the season than I was by the second-half of the
season. And put that that freaking the
price in the beginning. Put it in the beginning.
(24:31):
Noah's going to release his cut of this season.
It's just like that, like the flashbacks, like we're supposed
to be happy for them to like, progressively get Mike Moore
sad. It was just like a weird
headspace to be in. Anyway, Sorry.
Yeah. Let's know what you thought and
then look out for episode on theSeason 2 of Doctor Who.
We have lots of thoughts on thatone.
And then the life of Chuck. I will say, if you're debating
(24:52):
on seeing the life of Chuck, go see it.
Go see it. It's not horror.
So don't think because it's a Mike Flanagan and Stephen King
work. It's horror.
It's not. So go watch it and then lookout
for our review. Thank you for being so patient.
Goodbye.
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