May 19, 2025 • 58 mins
The overwhelming response to our podcast has shown us just how many people are silently struggling with the aftermath of narcissistic family dynamics. This episode dives deep into what it truly means to be the "black sheep" in a narcissistic family – not a flaw, but a superpower of truth-seeing that threatens those who rely on facades and manipulation.
We share a particularly moving story from a high school listener who reached out after realizing, through our podcast, that she wasn't broken or worthless as she'd been conditioned to believe. Her journey from suicide attempts to seeking therapy while still living in her difficult home situation highlights the critical importance of recognition and validation when navigating these toxic relationships.
Throughout our conversation, we explore common manipulation tactics like the silent treatment, strategies for fostering empathy within impossible family dynamics, and the challenging path of breaking generational cycles when becoming parents ourselves. We address the fear many survivors share: "Will I become like my narcissistic parent?" The answer lies in conscious choice and awareness – the very fact you're worried about this suggests you're already on a different path.
Dana shares insights from her therapeutic journey, while Victoria opens up about her experiences of physical trauma alongside emotional abuse. Together, we emphasize that healing isn't about changing the narcissist (an unlikely outcome) but about reclaiming your own identity and worth despite their influence.
Whether you're currently trapped in a narcissistic family, healing from past wounds, or supporting someone on this journey, this episode offers validation, perspective, and hope. The most beautiful flowers grow from dirt – your painful past doesn't determine your future. Connect with us, share your questions and wins, and remember you're part of a community that understands.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Good evening and welcome to another episode of
Dark Dark.
Who's there?
Help, I'm Gasping for Air.
Dana is co-hosting, as always,my ride or die girl.
We have not even touched theseQ&A questions.
I mean we are not gettingthrough them, but I love them.
We've had more.
I've put them in with the rest.
So far we will get to them.
(00:23):
I promise we will get to them.
So I want to thank everybody.
The numbers are crazy.
I hate that there's that manypeople.
I'm kind of really hoping thatthere's just some really curious
people, not that many peoplewho've had to go through this
because it's life altering.
It really is.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Absolutely.
I think it's important, though,that people are asking these
questions, because we can tellour stories, we can share our
wisdom, we can share our trialsand tribulations, but, at the
end of the day, we want to knowwhat everybody else is
struggling with, and we want toknow about your wins, too, not
just keep it all negative.
Let's hear about positive stufftoo, and you know, just just
(01:03):
keep it all coming Comments,questions, suggestions,
everything because we're game,we're ready, we're here for you.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
That's a great idea, because we put out there to give
us questions and we're gettingthem.
But how about also give us someof your highs?
Tell us some of the things thatyou've done and how you've
overcome certain things, andwe'll tell all that too.
We would love to hear all ofthis.
So here we go.
All right, let's go for thegold.
(01:31):
I mean, these are intensequestions, like.
I'm so honored that thesepeople are coming out and
trusting us like they are.
What strategies can the blacksheep use to foster empathy and
awareness, to try to relate totheir siblings as the golden
child excuse me within anarcissistic family?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah, I think it's important, not just with the
golden child but, dare I say,even with the narcissistic
parents or parents, because Ihad to do this with my mother
who, as I often say, is the cruxof my existence.
But you know, we have toremember we're all going through
(02:16):
our own human experience.
Where we are in our level ofhealing, in our self-awareness,
in what we are willing toconfront and what we're willing
to accept is different fromwhere another person is.
So we can't apply ourperspectives to somebody else
and we can't have thoseexpectations of them as well.
(02:39):
It would be nice if otherpeople were on the same level we
are, or thought the same as wedo, but they're not.
You know, and just to givesomebody an example, because I'm
using all these words, you knowspecifically, my mother had me
when she was a teenager.
She was obviously unwed andduring a time when that was not
(03:03):
socially acceptable, she did notwant me anymore before she had
me than after she had me.
So I had to deal with her shame.
But part of my healing wascoming to terms with the fact
and something that should maybebe obvious, but it never was,
until you know I'm 48 now thatshe was a baby herself and she
(03:26):
had a drunk, narcissistic father.
My grandma was just at her witsend, always finding her husband
with other women in theirliving room and their bedroom
and their wherever, and he wasabusive physically and my mother
was dealing with all this stuff.
So I have to believe she wasjust incapable of taking care of
(03:49):
me or helping me through theabuse that I endured at the
hands of her husband.
Mothers do, but I have.
I had to step back and kind ofgive her that grace of okay.
She had her own stuff going on.
(04:09):
Some people, I think, weretrying the best they could,
didn't know better, whatever,but that was the situation.
And once I was able to stepaway from it and kind of turn
things around to her perspective.
Same as my brother, the goldenchild, I love him dearly but his
life experience is that he hasa very loving mother and a very
(04:32):
loving father who have beensupportive and encouraging and
all these things.
It doesn't matter to him, norshould it, that I had a
different experience, a verypolar opposite experience.
So he cannot understand whereI'm coming from.
He can't have my perspectivebecause that wasn't his frame of
(04:52):
reference.
So again, sometimes we have toremember.
This is our experience, just asthey're entitled to theirs.
Once you can separate that, youcan stop having these
expectations that they'resupposed to be this or fulfill
this role in your life and withthat you can have more
acceptance of what actually is.
(05:14):
I hope that answered thequestion.
I'm not even sure it did, Ithink so.
I'm just trying to go on.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I think so.
I want to take a second.
It's a question, there's aquestion here, but I just want
to.
And I wrote her and said can Iread this part on air?
And she said yes, but I'm notgoing to say her name.
She wrote to me and said I wantto thank both of you for
letting me finally see the lightwithin my darkness of my life.
I had no idea that I was livingin the situation that I was in.
(05:44):
I thought it was all me.
I've tried to commit suicide.
I don't even enjoy going toschool anymore.
I literally thought I was theworst human being on the planet,
because that's what my everydaylife was.
I knew nothing different until Istarted listening to you guys.
I'm not even sure how I foundyou, but now I listen every time
(06:06):
there's a new episode Becauseof you.
I realized that I am not atfault, I'm not ashamed, and I am
now seeking therapy andcounseling at my high school for
the first time in my life.
I cannot wait to get out ofthis house and get on with my
life and understanding how tomove forward, but I'm stuck here
until then.
I'm curious, as this is thebeginning of my journey and
understanding how to moveforward, but I'm stuck here
until then.
I'm curious, as this is thebeginning of my journey and I'm
(06:28):
just starting to see the light,thanks to the two of you what do
you consider the definingcharacteristics of that black
sheep character in anarcissistic family dynamic?
Because I've just learned thatthat's who my identity really is
.
Well, first of all, yay, sohappy I like.
I wrote to her this longmessage and I said can I please
(06:50):
write that?
I won't say name, I won't sayanything, yes, yes, yes, yes.
She was so happy and shecouldn't believe that you know,
that we wrote her back and I waslike oh, we'll love to have you
on, we'll change your name,we'll change everything.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
I don't think she's anywhere ready for that, but I
give her such kudos because whata step, what a huge, huge step.
Because I think we carry somuch shame within ourselves and
we start to we usuallyinternalize all these things,
these people tell us about whowe are and who we're supposed to
be or who they think we arethat we start to think there is
really something wrong with us.
But it's so hard to admit likeI need help with this because
you don't want to really believethat about yourself.
(07:35):
So reaching out and at such ayoung age, this is huge.
(07:56):
And I have to say to whoeverthis is like, I totally feel you
on this.
Like she's high school, I waslike 12, 13, 14, I was just like
counting down, like how longtill I'm 18?
When can I get out of here?
Because there's a differencewhen you're a kid and you have
no rights and the police didn'tdo anything for me, child
services didn't do anything forme, nobody was helping me, so I
(08:16):
literally was stuck.
It's not like an adultrelationship where you have the
option of leaving if you sochoose.
So that's a huge thing and Iknow just understand that.
I know and I know you do too.
How hard that is to feelliterally trapped like,
basically like an animal in acage, having to endure all these
(08:39):
things and tolerate all thisjust to stay alive and keep your
head above water.
That in itself, nobody shouldhave to do that, but there is
strength in doing that thatnobody understands unless
they've been there.
So kudos, kudos, just know itwill be okay.
(09:00):
I promise you it'll be okay.
Just keep going down this pathof awareness and let us help you
reach out again if you need to.
But she was or she or he, Idon't know was asking okay, what
is the defining characteristicof a black sheep?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
That she just realized from the glimpse of
light what are the actualdefining characteristics of the
black sheep.
As I now realize, that's who Iam and my narcissistic family
dynamic.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
I think it's just being the truth seer.
You are the one person who seeseverything how it really is,
versus those rose-coloredglasses that we're handed and
told to wear because this is howwe want the world to perceive
us.
But we, whether we're wearingthe glasses or not, we're just
(09:53):
like it's all crap, it's all BS,it's all a facade.
I used to call it my the happyfamily facade.
I was supposed to play my rolein this farce of a family and I
didn't want to because it wasn't.
It wasn't real, it wasn'tfreaking real, you know, because
what was happening inside thehouse versus what we were
(10:14):
portraying outside, which it wasjust all crap.
So you're seeing the truth andthat's your core value and it's
a wonderful thing.
So don't ever feel ashamed forbeing the black sheep, the
scapegoat, the outsider, thewhatever you want to call it,
because there's more value inseeing truth in people than in
(10:35):
following a lie, because so manypeople are.
I mean, look at all the peoplewho believe the lie.
Look at all the people whobelieve that external, that
facade.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
It's much better to see the truth, just hold on to
it and know it's not you,there's nothing wrong with you,
it's them, I promise Dana, Iwant to take it a step further,
if we can, because this is ahigh school girl who reached out
and she's seeking therapy,which I'm so unbelievably proud
of her for.
She's admitted that she's, youknow, attempted suicide and
(11:11):
she's, you know, felt like she'sa lost cause and she's really
at that very first step ofhealing.
And it's so critical becausehow I read what she wrote to us
was that she literally feelslike nobody's in her corner.
So I told her to make sure shelistens.
I'm going to make sure thisepisode is the next one we
release so she can hear it.
(11:33):
I told her, you know she couldreach out at any time, but I
want to take a moment for herand for others that might just
be where she is.
And the thing is is that you'rea threat to your narcissistic
parents?
And it took me decades anddecades and decades, and Dana it
took me decades and Dana tofigure these out, because Dana
(11:54):
helped me.
And you have to realize thatthey put all this on you because
they're trying to make you outto be the bad person.
They're trying to place blame onyou because they cannot admit
fault, they cannot admit theirmistakes and so they think that
you're strong enough and you'reintimidation to them.
(12:14):
You're an intimidation to thembecause that's why you're the
black sheep, that's why theytalk so negative about you,
that's why they put the blame onyou, that's why they cut out
your self-esteem, becausethey're trying to lower your own
opinion of your self-worth.
And if you're not thinking thatyou are who you are, then they
can, like, belittle you and tearyou down.
(12:35):
And you need to realize no,don't let anybody tear you down,
don't let anybody tear you down, because I am sure that you are
a beautiful person inside andout.
I know you are because at yourage I'm guessing you're between
16 and 18, that you're at thispoint in your life where you're
(12:56):
already recognizing where I'mtelling you I was much later in
the life game before I realizedand I don't know where Dana was,
age wise.
Where were you when yourealized?
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Oh, I was younger I, it was definitely before I was
10, but definitely by the time Iwas 15, I saw everything.
It was blatantly obvious.
So I completely relate to thisperson.
You know and I agree with 100%of what you're saying.
I'm just going to add one thingreal quick, though.
It's the fact that narcissistsand it doesn't matter if it's
(13:33):
your parents, your spouse, afriend, a coworker they are very
intuitive, believe it or not,they know that you're on to them
, they know you see throughtheir BS.
That is why you're a threat.
Yes, that is why you are athreat.
It's your ability to see whatother people don't see.
(13:54):
And you know, I used to alwayswonder like why do I rub people
so wrong?
Like I can walk into a room andit's like I stir up everybody's
demons.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
And I now realize it's not a bad thing.
It's almost a superpower that Ihave, but it's all about
perspective, so don't feelashamed of that.
I think it's a very, I thinkit's an amazing thing to have
such a strong and powerful mind,to know what's what and to be
(14:26):
able to discern at a young age.
So go with it, embrace it,accept it and let that guide you
in your healing, because Ipromise you it will.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Well, another thing I want to say that I'm so glad
that, for whatever reason, youwere unable to complete the act
that was attempted more thanonce, because you did say that
you attempted more than once.
You have a purpose, you have areason to be here, and a split
decision to take your life givesthem power because they're
(15:00):
going to use it.
Believe me, don't give themthat.
They don't deserve it.
They don't earn it.
You have a purpose here andmaybe you don't know that just
yet.
You're not on that part of thatpath, but you will be and you
need to realize that you areworth living.
You are worth the life you weregiven, that you're an
intimidation to others becauseyou have truth, you have your
(15:23):
own self-worth and you're aperson that that's worth getting
up in the morning and smilingand saying you know what?
Screw them.
I'm better than that, becauseI'm not trying to tear people
down.
I'm trying to help people.
I'm not this horrible personput in front of me.
I am a good person and becauseof that they are threatened by
(15:43):
me.
Don't give them thesatisfaction of trying to take
your life or doing things tohurt yourself, because you don't
need to do that to yourselfbecause you're better than that.
You deserve better than that.
And think about it this way youare already surviving 100% of
the worst days.
You've already overcome all ofthat behind you.
(16:04):
But please, please, please,realize that.
You know, before I went throughmy domestic violence with my ex,
I never thought I would be theabused wife.
I never thought I would be.
But after going through thatand realizing that my biological
parents put him in my life likeI had no idea of that, parents
(16:25):
put him in my life Like I had noidea of that, and then I
started really cause.
I did all my therapy based onhim and when I was younger I was
in therapy.
But I was in therapy as to whymy grandparents treated me more
like their child than my parentstreated me like their child and
I never knew narcissism at thatage.
I never knew, you know, I hadsuch blinders on.
I didn't want to recognize that, why I was so different.
(16:46):
I, when I was little, I thought, okay, it's because I'm a girl
and he's a boy.
My, my brother's a boy, somaybe that's why.
But I just didn't take thattime to really learn about it.
And then I realized this iswhat I'm here, for I'm here to
help people.
I'm here to be a voice.
I'm here to help people.
I'm here to be a voice.
I'm here to help other peoplerealize you are worth so much
more.
(17:07):
And you know it took me a longtime and I might get some
ridicule about that.
This is fine, but it took mesuch a long time to realize.
Now I go back and look at youknow my, my prequel, nart Nart
who's there is literally when Iwrote it, I had to put evidence
in it because I was made out tobe the liar.
I wrote it.
(17:27):
I had to put evidence in itbecause I was made out to be the
liar the horrific piece of, asI've been called and I'm not a
racist in any way I've beencalled white trash.
I've been told oh, you put yournumber on a bus station to find
a man.
You are never worth being loved.
Look at you.
You look like Freddy Kruegerand the Elephant man had a child
together.
You know I heard these everysingle day.
I heard you know I wish Imiscarried you instead and I was
(17:47):
nine and that stays with youfor the rest of your life.
And when you hear all of these,it took me until I was in my
forties that I realized, wow,they're really miserable people
and they are trying so hardbecause you hear the the phrase
all the time misery lovescompany.
But all these people aroundthem saw the money, they saw the
power of who they were, and tohell with the child who survived
(18:12):
this horrific domestic violence.
You don't have surgery tocorrect something that isn't
broken if it's not cosmetic,right.
And so I've had over 100surgeries and none of them have
been elective.
I haven't been able to getanything I want done.
It's all like I tell people ina joking manner if I want to get
a fix up.
You know I don't go forcosmetic.
I get a WD-40 to them becauseI'm all metal everywhere.
(18:35):
You know I'm bionic and andliterally you know, I my life.
I have to have hearing aids tohear.
I have a prosthetic arm that Irefuse to wear.
You know my shoulder is isTitanic, titanium.
I'm.
Everything's been replaced andyou know what?
I'm still here.
How many times have they triedto take me down and fail, and
(18:57):
you know what?
Look at that.
It doesn't matter how manytimes.
If it's one or 100 or 1000, itdoesn't matter.
It matters that you are a goodperson with a good heart and a
good sense of self.
That you realized right awayOnce you started listening oh my
God, that's me.
And then you took the step onyour own to go and start getting
help, and that takes a verystrong person and young lady.
(19:22):
I'm here to tell you I'm proudof you.
I think that you are so abovewhere you think you are.
I will be happy to speak withyou one-on-one.
I'm sure I'm not meaning tospeak for Dana.
I'm sure she would do it.
I know I would do it.
We do it together, uh, ifyou're more comfortable with
that, but I have such respectfor you because you have
(19:43):
literally just seen a light andthat little tiny flicker that
you see, my dear, can start awildfire and you need to realize
that you hold your head up highand realize that you are a
fantastic young lady 100% agree.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
And no, I love that Because I think that a lot of
people need to hear that, notjust this person, because I
think that's something that wemiss.
We come here and we're.
I know I felt that way too, andeven in my preteen years I was
like why am I even here?
Why did I get you know?
(20:25):
Why was I born so I couldsuffer?
Why am I everybody's punchingbag?
This sucks, and I want it outtoo.
I just didn't.
I have no pain tolerance.
If you pinch me, I'll cry, so Icouldn't hurt myself.
So thank God for that, thoughthat you know.
And and whether you believe inGod or not, I do.
I think that there's a reasonthat he protected me through my
(20:47):
abusive childhood, through myviolent marriage and all the
times.
And for the person that wrotein and anyone else who can
relate, if you've ever thoughtabout suicide or just even had
the glint of an idea that youdon't want to be here me too
even had the glint of an ideathat you don't want to be here
(21:08):
me too, even as recently I'mgoing to say a September of this
year.
It sucks, because sometimes ourminds go back there, but it's
not that you don't want to live,it's that you don't want to
hurt anymore.
But you don't have to hurtanymore and when you are ready,
when you are ready, you canreach out to Victoria, to me, to
somebody you know and trust, tosomebody in your community.
(21:31):
I promise you there are peoplethat will help you find the
right resource and the rightperson to help you along,
because not everybody isequipped, not everybody gets it,
not everybody you know is goingto respond very well to you or
you to them.
But the right person is outthere and when you are ready, I
(21:53):
promise you we can get you the.
This is why Victoria and I geteach other.
It took us into our forties tolike, get to where we're, like
okay, and we're not crying onChristmas because mommy didn't
invite us to her house.
(22:15):
We don't want to go, it's okay,right, but there was a time
where you feel excluded, youfeel like you shouldn't be here.
You feel you feel all.
We've all felt those shameful,awful things.
So just understand that you arehere for a reason.
If I had made a silly choice notto be here, there are a lot of
(22:39):
things that wouldn't happen andyou know, same with you,
victoria, we are here and we'restrong willed and we're brought
the information we need so thatwe can keep fighting for
ourselves, and that's what youshould do.
So if anyone else has everstruggled with hurting that
badly, that you just feel likemaybe not being here is a better
(23:01):
option, I promise you you don'thave to live that way.
And that's not a better option.
And you think you're alone, butreally I promise you you're not
as alone as you think.
There are people.
There might be people you don'teven know yet, that you just
haven't met, that are going tobe your ride or dies, and so
just hang in there a littlelonger, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
And those days go bad , they go away, and then they
get better, and then you're likeman, I could have missed this.
You know, and and it's worththe, it's worth fighting for,
you are worth fighting for andto hell with them.
You know one of the things Iwould say, you know, to help you
get through this.
And and when I and I want tostress this when I was younger,
(23:47):
I would get the silent treatmentand it destroyed me because I
didn't understand why am Igetting ignored?
Like you have to understand.
Like, picture your biologicalparents in the room with you.
So there's three of you in theroom and my biological dad would
look at my biological motherand say tell her X, y and Z, and
I'm like I can hear you, I'mright here.
But it didn't matter, because herefused to look at me, he
refused to speak to me, and soshe would convey it and I'd be
(24:09):
like I'm not talking to you toget to him, I'm going to you
know, and then he would justlike and he'd walk away.
And he even did the silenttreatment to Faye, you know,
when she was little, and it'slike now I go back and look at
that and I was like what a giftyou get because you stop
speaking to me.
So if you can get them to giveyou the silent treatment, girl,
go for it, because they're goingto leave you alone and it might
(24:32):
really hurt in the beginning,but it's not as painful as the
bull crap that will come out oftheir face the rest of the time.
And now I'm upset with myselfbecause I'm like dadgummit.
I should have made him give methe freaking silent treatment
all the time, because then Ididn't have to hear it, I didn't
have to deal with it, theydidn't want me around, but the
minute they needed me forsomething you better believe it
(24:54):
was all rainbows and teddy bears.
But trust me, get them to getyou quiet, like if they if they,
you know have the opportunityto give you the silent treatment
, go for it.
Make sure they give it to youbecause that's your peace and
quiet until the next phase whereyou get out.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah, I am a silent treatment person too.
I loathe it, I hate it.
But I think the silenttreatment's hard because it just
makes you feel like well, letme backtrack here.
I think the core of it why ithurts us so much is because
that's your mom, that's your dad, or, if it's later in life,
(25:32):
it's your husband, it's yourwife.
Like what the hell they'resupposed to be, my people that
are like for me, if nobody elseis, they're supposed to be on,
and so when they reject you,it's like, oh, my goodness
gracious, like how can they ifthey can't even love me?
Nobody will.
So it's just a matter of I.
(25:53):
Oh, I'm sorry.
All I was going to say is that Ithink we have to remember that
just because you were born outof somebody does not mean that
there's some inherent naturethat you're both going to get
along.
It's okay to not get along withthe parents.
It's okay to not get along withrelatives, brothers, sisters,
whoever, just like you go towork, you might not get along
(26:16):
with everybody.
You might not get along witheverybody in a class at school.
That's just life.
So if you take that expectationout that my mother is supposed
to this or my father is supposedto that.
Take that out of it.
They are human beings, like kindof where we started with that
first question.
They're humans, they're havingtheir own experience and
(26:38):
unfortunately, some humans can'tfulfill their obligations and
their dutiful roles to theirchildren and it sucks and it's
awful.
But don't let that deter you,because there are plenty of
other people in your life now orthat you will come across.
You and I, victoria, we're veryfortunate, we had our grandmas,
my great grandma, but there arealways people and I have people
(27:01):
now that say that they wishthat I was their daughter and
they would adopt me right now,at 48.
And I love that because theyhave no obligation to care about
me that much.
But they do so.
To hell with people that aren'tfor you.
If they're biologically relatedor not, your people are your
people and that's just what itis.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Right, but I mean, I don't know about you, but like
if I had the opportunity tochoose, would I rather be little
constantly, day after day,while I'm still residing in the
house with them, or have them besilent and not speak to me at
all.
I'd rather have them be silent.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I used to lock myself in my room as a kid and all the
way through my teenage yearslike just I would just literally
be by myself because I don'twant to hear them, I don't want
to interact with them.
I don't want to hear them, Idon't want to interact with them
, I didn't want any part of them, and so it's just fine.
It hurts still because, like Isaid, I held on to that
expectation, that.
But it's my mother, my mother'ssupposed to.
(27:59):
Once I decided to let that crapgo, because the reality is it's
crap.
I came out of somebody, but thatdoesn't mean that we have to
get along.
She likes her other kid betterand I'm glad for him.
I'm glad he, my brother, didn'thave to endure the same
childhood I did, because that'swhat I was afraid of, but he
didn't, so he got the good partsof them.
(28:20):
Thank God it was just me.
I'm handling it, I tookresponsibility and I'm good.
But that's what we have to dois just.
You know it's a little selfish,but you just got to worry about
you.
They have unhealed trauma.
That's their problem, theirissue.
What they say and what they doto you is also believe it or not
their problem.
It really has nothing to dowith you, except for the fact
(28:43):
that you see through their crap.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
So you know, my therapist is hilarious and she,
she says something to me one daywhen I was just like I don't
understand, I don't get it, whyam I not?
You know, I'm nothing like them, how can I be there?
As I'm adopted, I was left at afire station and she looked at
me and she goes sweetheart, youcan pick your nose, pick your
ass.
You can pick your nose, pickyour ass.
(29:06):
You can't be parents and I likelost it.
I mean it was just like she'sgot a point, like that's true,
you know, like she's, she'sright, you can't, you know,
think about it like that, youknow, I mean you just gotta.
And it goes the other wayaround too.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
I used to know a 90 some year old lady and she had
had nine children and she toldme one day that she only liked
one of them.
It sounded like such a terriblething to say, but I'm like you
know what she's being honest.
I mean, just because you havethem doesn't mean you have to
like them.
So that's true, it's mutual,because I met several of them
(29:42):
and, believe me, they didn'tlike her much either.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Now you'll see why we can't get through all this.
All right, let's get to ourthird one.
How can individuals fromnarcissistic backgrounds
advocate?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
for relationships and parenting.
I'm not sure what they'retrying to ask.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
I didn't either, but I wrote a verbatim of what was
asked.
So how?
Speaker 2 (30:13):
can individuals from narcissistic backgrounds
advocate for relationships inparenting?
If I'm interpreting thatcorrectly and forgive me whoever
wrote in, I'm just guessingbecause it sounds like it's a
good question.
I think it just goes back to abasic idea of you came out of
this.
You know this childhood withnarcissistic parents like you
(30:34):
and I both have Victoria.
And then all of a sudden you'rea parent, whether by choice or
by accident.
You're like, oh my gosh, whatdo I do?
How do I know how to parent,when this is what I had for a
frame of reference and I mean wejust talked about choices.
But I think that's what itcomes down to.
That's what it was for me,because very early on also,
(30:56):
everything kind of happened.
When my hormones happened, like12, 13 years old, I was like
there's no way I'm ever having achild.
I will never.
I don't want a kid, I don'twant to be a mother.
I was not one of those littlegirls that played with baby
dolls or anything, never Didn'twant to play house, none of that
, because I was afraid I wouldturn into my mother and or
(31:17):
stepfather.
And as you get older, you hearthese things about oh, whether
you like it or not, you're goingto turn into your parents and I
was like there's no way in heck, I am going to do that.
So I think that by the time Igot to that age in my later 20s
where I was like, oh crap, Ireally do actually want a kid
because everyone else is havingone and I kind of want one now
(31:39):
and you know, your biologicalclock kicks in, I realized I
could have a child and that Iwas capable of loving that child
and making sure that child, bychoice, did not experience one
iota of what I went through withmy mother and stepfather.
So that's what I did and youknow he jokes to this day.
(32:00):
My son is 21.
And there's this joke that I'mlike Marie and everybody loves
Raymond.
You know the mother who'salways.
I'm not, I'm not a meddler or acontroller, but I mean I love
my son, like Marie loves Raymond.
You know I don't have anotherkid, but I have a golden child
in my one child because I lovehim that much and I will do
(32:23):
anything and everything to makesure his life is good and he
knows he can ask me anythinganytime and maybe that's
coddling and maybe that'sspoiling.
I call it love because that'smy kid and I can and I want to,
and that's just what it is.
And so he is very well adjusted, despite what we went through
(32:44):
in my first marriage to his dad.
He is very social, he is verysuccessful at his job.
He makes a ridiculous amount ofmoney Not that that's
necessarily a measure of successbut he has had everything go
very well for him, whereassomebody else in the same
(33:04):
situation would have, morelikely just as I could have,
just as likely and you as wellgone into drugs and low
motivation, low achievement.
So I am glad whether it's justhim and I got lucky or if I
really did do a good job, maybea combination did do a good job,
(33:27):
maybe a combination.
But it's a choice and you havethat choice to make.
As far as the advocating aspectof that question, how do you
advocate for parenting?
I think that if you're gettingat like, how can you convince
people not to be narcissisticparents?
If that's what you're gettingat, I don't think that's
possible.
I personally don't feel.
(33:47):
Even though narcissism issupposedly a personality
disorder, I don't believe thatit can be rehabilitated.
I don't think that a narcissistwould go to therapy unless
there was some benefit orsomething they could get out of
it, which is usually makingsomebody else look crazy or
stupid.
That's the only thing theycould really benefit from, but
(34:10):
they wouldn't go to therapy.
They would never evenacknowledge that there's a
weakness.
These are people who won'tadmit to being depressed or
anxious or anything, becausenothing's wrong with them.
So I don't think you canadvocate or help in any way to
prevent narcissistic parenting.
A person's either a narcissistor they're not, and it's
(34:30):
unfortunate that they're justkind of out there and being able
to do what they do to people.
So we as individuals have toset those boundaries and protect
ourselves from whatever they'redoing, whether they're a parent
, whether they're a child,whether they're whoever in our
lives.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yes, absolutely.
You know, talk about advocating.
The only thing I can add tothat that I was thinking is like
the narcissist will never go totherapy.
They believe I'll put you on acouch but I'm not joining on it.
And so when Faith was I guessshe was probably about seven or
eight um, I made it clear thatthat my biological mother needed
(35:10):
to come to an appointment, sheadamantly was like I'm not
wasting my time, I'm not wastingmy day, I got better things to
do, I'm not doing it like it wasjust awful.
And I was like, well, you getto talk about how she annoys you
.
And she's like I'm going.
And I was like, when sherealized that she was gonna bad
mouth my kid, yeah, I didn'ttell her who we were seeing or
anything like that.
(35:30):
So we get to the appointmentand we go in there and I've
always had multiple therapists,counselors, psychiatrists,
psychologists for Faith to have,so she knows there's someone
else for her to talk to, outsideof just me from the jump.
Because, know, from the jump,she hasn't had the normal baby
life and the toddler life and soI've always wanted her to be
(35:50):
able to go and talk to whomevershe felt needed that it wasn't
just me, that she had thoseavenues.
So I didn't tell and donor, andwe get there and we walk in and
this is a spitfire and thewoman is a spitfire, and so we
go in there and they took faithinto the playroom, um, with a
therapist, and she was like well, you know, I've been treating
(36:11):
faith for a while now and I Ialways hear about the
complications between you,grandma, and faith.
And she's like do you know whyshe calls you mimi?
And she was like no, and shegoes.
Do you want me to tell you?
She's like?
No, she goes.
Well, I'm going to tell youanyway.
And she goes.
She called you Mimi becauseeverything is about you, you,
(36:32):
you, you, you.
So it's me, me, me, me, me,right, and she's like I want you
to realize that yourgranddaughter is a proxy.
So she can't with a proxy, youreally don't do m's, and you
know she doesn't have a tongue.
So for her to go above andbeyond and still say me, me, me,
me, me, and call you me, me isjust a lesson, right.
(36:56):
So she, she's like so why do youhave a problem?
And she goes well, I'll tellher to do something.
And she'll be like you're notmy mom and you know she goes.
Well, okay, and she goes.
What do you tell her to do thatshe wouldn't do that?
She's like well, I told her youknow, you don't have to be nice
to your mother, you do what Isay.
And she's like no, you're notmy mom.
And she'll say you know, didyou tell her that you were okay
(37:17):
if her daughter didn't make iton on surgery?
She's like yeah, and then she'slike why, even here, like, and
all she did was try and spin itand the psychiatrist that we
were in there with just reallyturned it on her and it was
great.
And then when she realized that, she turned it on me and she
was like well, all she caresabout is taking care of her kid.
(37:38):
Like, she doesn't give me thetime of day, she doesn't help me
do anything, she doesn't doanything.
And the therapist says therapistsays well, do you do anything
for your daughter?
You know, were you there whenyour daughter was dying in the
ICU?
Did you go see her?
She's like no, she goes well.
When your daughter andgranddaughter were in the ICU,
did you go see them?
No, what about yourgranddaughter and daughter said
hey, spend the night and have agirl's night.
What'd you say?
(37:58):
I'm not giving up my bed, youknow.
And she was so disturbed andbothered that we made her come
to this and we tricked her,which we did and I openly admit
that.
But it was just, you know, forthe therapist.
She's like for me to help Faith, I need to hear your side, you
know.
And then she was like Faithcomes in here and she's like my
baby frustrates me so bad.
(38:19):
And she's like why does shefrustrate you?
She's like because I don't likehow she talks to my mom and my
mom will let me talk back to herthe way I want to.
And then she's like well, thatchild shouldn't be talking to me
the way she does.
And this one over here, you know, always tells her, you know she
can't talk to me like that andso she doesn't talk to me.
And I said I've taught her thateven though she's your
(38:41):
granddaughter, you have to berespectful and that she can't
tell you to go to hell, becausefaith will tell you to go to
hell.
Faith will tell you veryquickly to go to hell.
And I was like I told her shecan't do that because she has to
be respectful and you know,when she told me, I don't care
if you don't come off the ortable, I put my hand over
faith's mouth and said goupstairs, go out.
She's like no, I'm gonna, likeyou know, and faith is just like
(39:03):
let me have her, nope.
So I'm kind of thinking that'swhat they're talking about,
about advocating is like tryingto find a way maybe to bring
things to fruition so that maybeit can be worked on by all
parties.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
But yeah, that's not gonna happen with a narcissist
right they.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
They don't believe they need help.
They don't believe that theyneed to go and seek anybody,
like I constantly heard fromthem.
Why do you go see somebody acouple times a week like, why?
And are you talking about uslike they're paranoid?
Are you talking about us?
What are you saying about us?
Why are you talking about us?
You know these were things thatwere constant, not how can we
(39:41):
make things better for you oranything like that.
So to me it's like trying toget somebody to do something you
know they're never going to do.
You're never going to get anarcissist to really sit down
and say I'm so wrong.
How can I fix this?
I need to better myself for mychildren.
(40:02):
It's just not going to happen.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah, and it's not even just for the children, it's
not for anybody, not even forthemselves, because we have to
remember and there's a lot herebut narcissists operate solely
out of their ego.
Whatever fills their ego,that's all that matters to them,
it's all about them.
(40:25):
Literally, even thosenarcissists that come off
charitable and generous no, no,no, no, no.
They are getting admiration andpraise and all this stuff from
other people.
They're basically sucking thisenergy out of other people so
they feel good about themselves,so they can uphold this image
that they're putting out ofother people, so they feel good
about themselves, so they canuphold this image that they're
(40:46):
putting out of what wonderfulpeople they are.
But it's all a farce.
So, yeah, we have to remember.
But I want to say one thing too, is that this, what you just
said, basically speaks to cause.
I think it's important.
I always kind of put off thewhole idea of help.
I'm, but I was also surroundedby three prime people in my life
(41:10):
mother, stepfather and firsthusband who were all telling me
and other people that I wascrazy and mentally unstable and
unfit to care for my son andthis, and that because they had
to make sure my credibility wasshot because they knew I would
eventually speak up and exposeeverything and expose them,
which is exactly why yourparents were concerned about you
(41:33):
.
Know you going to therapy?
Like, why are they saying, whatare you saying?
What are you saying about us?
They don't want theirreputation smeared.
They don't mind ruining yourreputation, but theirs has to be
pristine.
So it's a very big deal to beable to get past the shame of it
and be able to admit like, okay, I'm listening to podcasts, I'm
(41:54):
watching YouTubes, I'm readingbooks, but I need a little more.
I need more one-on-one, I needa little more help getting there
.
I need somebody to hold my handand help me the rest of the way
.
But you have to be open to it,just like a narcissist would
have to be open to any kind ofrehabilitation or therapy, which
(42:16):
they never would be.
There are, believe it or not,and we see them all over social
media and in our lives, peoplewho really could use some
healing, and I admit I was oneof them, and there were many
people that approached me andsaid can I help, can I support
you?
I was like oh, not me, I'm good, I'm fine, I'm getting there, I
(42:36):
can do it on my own?
Well, no, I couldn't, but I hadto be ready and I wouldn't be
receptive until I was ready toadmit and accept that I couldn't
do it on my own.
So that's just a little plugfor anybody who's on the fence.
There is no shame in askingsomebody for help or to reach
out for that, because we all arejust trying to get to the same
(43:00):
place, which is to some innerpeace and the ability to enjoy
and find the joys and see thejoys in the present and future
and not be stuck in the past andall that mucking crap that bogs
us down.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
So Right, and here's a perfect example.
You'll know that a narcissistwill never want to get help,
because and I'll give thescenario and let Dana talk about
it it's not really a scenarioin my book.
I'm not going to go through thewhole thing I ended up having to
have multiple surgeries on myarm prior to my amputation.
And I saw I went after and saylegal counsel, and the counselor
(43:36):
was somebody I knew and he wasa really great person he still
is and when we sat down withthem and I explained that there
was a little history he neededto know about, well, first I was
told I wasn't allowed to tellmy counselor and and counselor I
mean attorney.
And so when my attorney saidyou know, what else am I not
gonna know?
I want to know anything thatcould become a surprise to us.
(43:58):
And he was like we need to goafter the physical therapist as
well, because the physicaltherapist obviously wasn't doing
the right treatment, obviouslycaused more issues.
Um, and I was like, well, thisis going to be a problem.
And the attorney says, well,why?
And I was like, and I just lookover, and my biological dad,
and he was like what?
And I was like, well, there's alittle thing going on over
(44:19):
there.
And when my attorney found outhe's like you have to stop it.
He's like, now, stop it now.
And he was like, no, nobody'sgoing to tell me what I can and
can't do.
I deserve to be happy.
She doesn't want me to be happy.
Do you think I'm going throughall this on my arm to keep you
from being happy?
I mean, how far-fetched are you?
And then he kept saying you'vegot to stop it.
(44:41):
He goes when we go to trial.
This is going to come out.
It's going to come out that youare taking her to a hotel out
of town and that you're going todinner with her and you're
lying to your wife about her.
And you know and I'm talkingabout my physical therapist,
that's who he was you know, andso, with that being said, he
actually looked at me and said,quote, unquote, you need to fall
(45:02):
on the sword and you need tonot pursue this legally because
this can't come out in court,because your mother can't find
out about it.
I mean, I don't, I'm going tolet David say what she wants to
say about this, but like that tome has been the perfect example
of a real narcissist whodoesn't give one rat's behind
(45:23):
about anybody but themselves.
I mean, you have a child wholiterally was losing a limb and
he was worried about his secondhit.
Sorry, but you know that's whatit was.
When faith, this early in thisyear, went into multi-organ
failure, I told the doctors youimmediately send me over to the
hospital across the street.
I'm donating my kidney, youtake whatever else you need.
(45:44):
If you need a piece of liver,if you need whatever, you take
it.
It was not even a secondhesitation.
It was like let's go, like testme, go, and you know what it's,
just do it.
And I was like and then I'llrecover back here in the
hospital with her.
Not even a second thought.
But when your biological fathersays you're gonna have to
follow the sword because itcan't come out court that I'm
(46:08):
hanging around, if you will andthat's the wrong terminology
with this woman.
That, to me, is the epitomedefinition of the narcissist.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Yeah, and I.
That's all I was going to sayactually, because I mean we
could have a whole otherdiscussion about narcissism.
And I did read your book, narcNarc who's there, and I remember
all of that and it was soatrocious.
But it speaks exactly to whatnarcissism is when you said that
you had to fall on the swordfor the sake of his reputation
(46:40):
and so that his wife didn't knowabout the infidelity, and not
that it was the first or thelast time.
But that is the whole thing.
It's about them.
It's about you having to takethe fall.
You have to be crazy, you haveto be delusional, you have to
take the like.
I said, I always felt like thepunching bag, always just being
(47:00):
walked all over.
It didn't matter how I felt orwhat I needed, or it didn't
matter that I was a child, itdidn't matter that.
You know, same thing when I,when I had my son.
None of it matters, the animals, the cats and dogs running
around don't matter they.
I tell people to liken it tohaving an intervention with
(47:23):
somebody about drugs or alcohol.
You can give them a gazillionreasons why they should stop.
You know shooting up withheroin, or I don't even know
what you should up with.
That shows how much I know.
Or to stop drinking, whateverit is for your newborn baby, for
your wife, for your motherwho's on her dying bed and it's
her last language they don'tcare.
(47:45):
They don't care, they.
And until somebody cares,nothing is going to change.
So that's just narcissism, and Ithink you just you know people
are so concerned about like whata narcissist is and what
narcissist qualities are.
I just call it.
When somebody intentionallyharms and disrespects you,
(48:05):
that's it, and you can call itwhatever you want, and they
don't need to even be abusivenecessarily.
They could just be annoyingwith it.
Or you know, that's not thekind of relationship you want,
no matter who it is in your life.
That is not serving you or yourpurpose and nobody should have
(48:25):
to dishonor themselves bytolerating it.
You know, if you want to go toChristmas every year at the
family and and believe me, weall have that person that's like
you don't want to go becauseyou don't want to run into them
and but you know what, you cango and say hello or don'ts,
whatever, and just not interactwith them.
(48:46):
But as far as having a regularrelationship with these kinds of
people, no, no, move on.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
Right, 100%.
Well, we got through one morepage.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
We'll get there eventually, but keep sending
them in.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
And you know what, I love that and people start
giving us what you've done.
Give us some of the examples ofthings you've done to overcome
what you've done.
I love that.
I love the interaction, youknow.
Eventually I would like to seeif anybody wants to come on,
maybe after.
Maybe you know a few more ofthe episodes where we're talking
about what people have done andsome questions they might have
(49:26):
Um it.
It would be up to them, ofcourse, if they felt comfortable
enough to come on.
But uh, the fact that it'sreaching the numbers, that it is
and it's helping so many people, it is just amazing.
It really is uh to know that wecan make even a difference in
one person like that, thatbeautiful high school girl who
(49:49):
said I had no idea what I wasliving in until I heard your
podcast.
And that's well wortheverything that we do, at least
in my opinion, because it's just.
You know, nobody should gothrough this alone.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Well and it's interesting because I was just
talking to somebody the otherday and brought it up about my
first book, gasping for Air,which was about my first
marriage.
Thank you, but the part that wewere talking about was that it
was a chapter in the booktowards the end where I was
(50:23):
filling out a form for an orderof protection.
I had been with him for 24years at this point.
So I had endured an abusivechildhood with two narcissistic
parents, 24 years with mynarcissistic husband and I
finally had the nerve because Ifelt like I had some nerve going
(50:45):
to the courthouse and askingfor an order of protection.
But when guns and knives startgetting involved, you start
getting scared enough Althoughthere were a million things
before that that should havewarned me, but it wasn't until I
filled out that form and ifanyone has filled it out, I know
you know what I'm talking about.
Has this person ever, you know,used a weapon against you?
(51:07):
Has this person everintimidated you?
Has this person ever stalkedyou?
There's all these questions andyou mark yes or no and I marked
yes to all of them and I'm likeoh, I know what abuse is.
I was abused in my childhood.
I had child services and thepolice involved.
I know what abuse is.
I wasn't abused.
(51:28):
Guess what abuse is.
I wasn't abused, guess what.
Anyone who reads my book.
You're not that far in whenyou're like gosh, darn, when is
this girl going to leave thisguy?
I mean, that's what people sayto me all the time, but they
don't get it.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
They don't get it unless they've lived it.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
But the thing is it's because we think of abuse as a
black eye or God forbid theworst of circumstances like you
have been through, victoria, andwe need to start realizing that
anything that is I mean we usethis word toxic, but anything
(52:07):
that threatens your sense ofself and your self-worth, your
if not the physical, sexual,financial, legal, and all the
(52:35):
gaslighting and the manipulation.
So don't ever.
I'm big on shame, as you guysknow, but I don't want anyone to
ever be ashamed.
You may not even know thecircumstances you're in, even
though you've been in thosecircumstances before, because
maybe even I realized late.
I gaslit myself.
(52:56):
I didn't want to believe that Iput myself in another abusive
situation.
I didn't want to tell myselfthat I was a fool.
And how could I be so stupid?
You know what?
I was human, I was open.
I wanted it to be something itwould never be.
I had hope, and that's a goodthing I now see.
But don't ever get hard onyourself about that.
(53:20):
It's okay, we all end up insituations, but we're all here
and we're all together and we'reall here for each other.
So keep joining us and if anypart of this episode resonates
with somebody that you know.
Send it to them please, becausemaybe if they listen to it they
might realize something abouttheir own circumstances and be
(53:43):
able to reach out and get helpor get out of that situation
altogether as well.
Speaker 1 (53:48):
Right.
And another thing is when I wasreading and I always say this
when I was reading Dana's booksthe first one, I couldn't put it
down and I was so just like howyou resonate with so much of it
.
And then I started readingGasping for Air is one of my top
10 favorite books I've everread in my life and so but then
(54:09):
you get choking on shame and youreally get into it and you
start going.
I get that, like I get it, andI think that a lot of people
like this beautiful high schoolgirl, if you go and literally
just take a minute, go, get herbooks and go and I'm not doing
that just to promote her andselling her book.
(54:30):
I'm telling you because if yougo and you read it and I had
this happen to me I'm going inand sitting there and I'm
reading and I'm going.
This happened to me, I get itand you know what it does to you
.
It makes you realize you're notthe only one, you're not
something that's damaged.
You're not broken, you're not.
You know, if you break abeautiful glass the most
beautiful stained glass windowscome from broken pieces you can
(54:53):
piece yourself back together andyou go and you look at these
books and you read them and youresonate, you're like I'm not
the only one, maybe it's not me,it is them, because now you're
getting to see, you know, andyou have that realization at
different parts of your age.
This beautiful girl found outin her high school years, and
that was just this week.
And then, you know, it took memuch later in life.
(55:15):
Everybody's different, but ifyou see that, maybe you realize
then that you're not alone,because you're not and you
realize, hey, this happened tosomeone else and it's not me,
and my self-worth doesn't needto be in question and I don't
need to be so afraid of my scars.
I was out the other day andsomebody looked at me, called me
a freak and I just, you know,that's how it is, and I just
(55:38):
looked at them and you know, atthe end of the day they got to
look at themselves in the mirrorevery single day and that's
fine.
You know, at Halloween, at thebest time, I walked around
telling everybody I was CaptainHook's sister, and, and people
were just, you know, and peoplewere like, why do you always
laugh?
Why do you always have a smileon your face?
Why, because I beat death morethan once, like every time I was
(55:59):
supposed to die.
I overcame it and they're stillmiserable pieces of shit.
And I'm here and I havemillions of people who listen to
us because of people like Dana.
I have a sister now in Dana whoI would move heaven and earth
for, I think, the world of her,and the minute she goes like
quiet for a couple of days, I'mlike annoying her.
You know, are you okay?
(56:20):
You know I do and she'll tellyou.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
I'm like, hey, it's your annoying buddy over here,
just making sure you're okay,because I never had that, but I
thank you for that and I lovethat.
Speaker 1 (56:29):
But I thank you for that and I love that.
So we are here.
You are not alone, like.
This girl was so shocked that Iwrote her back and she the
first thing I said is I'm sosorry it took me this long to
write you back.
It was like an hour.
And I said I was actuallyhelping somebody else and she
was like the fact you wrote mewas stunning, like, and I said
why.
You know you were just somebodyjust like me.
(56:50):
We put our pants on the sameway.
I might need a little helpbecause I got one arm down, but
we're all just the same.
You know, and think about theforce we can create together if
we unite together.
I mean how powerful and strongwe all are.
Speaker 2 (57:04):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
So I mean, you and I thinkalike.
We're, you know, great minds,hopefully, but you know great
minds hopefully, but you know.
One last thought, just topiggyback on everything you just
said, is that we all need toremember that the most beautiful
flowers grow from dirt.
That's right.
Why are you smiling?
Because, yeah, you've beenthrough some crap, you've been
(57:26):
through your dirt, you've beenthrough the storms, the worst of
it.
But why would you want tochoose misery?
Why Nobody wants to live there?
I don't know why I held on tomy victimhood for so long, but I
finally realized this sucks.
I want to be happy, I want tosmile too, and so now I am.
There's a lot of work to getthere, but we're here for you.
(57:48):
So keep tuning in, keepreaching out, and we thank
everybody and we love you all,even if we don't know.
You just know that it's okay.
We can all love each other andhelp each other along.
Speaker 1 (58:01):
Yes, we will see you soon.
Thanks everyone.
Speaker 2 (58:04):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (58:05):
Bye.
Good evening and welcome to another episode of
Dark Dark.
Who's there?
Help, I'm Gasping for Air.
Dana is co-hosting, as always,my ride or die girl.
We have not even touched theseQ&A questions.
I mean we are not gettingthrough them, but I love them.
We've had more.
I've put them in with the rest.
So far we will get to them.
(00:23):
I promise we will get to them.
So I want to thank everybody.
The numbers are crazy.
I hate that there's that manypeople.
I'm kind of really hoping thatthere's just some really curious
people, not that many peoplewho've had to go through this
because it's life altering.
It really is.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Absolutely.
I think it's important, though,that people are asking these
questions, because we can tellour stories, we can share our
wisdom, we can share our trialsand tribulations, but, at the
end of the day, we want to knowwhat everybody else is
struggling with, and we want toknow about your wins, too, not
just keep it all negative.
Let's hear about positive stufftoo, and you know, just just
(01:03):
keep it all coming Comments,questions, suggestions,
everything because we're game,we're ready, we're here for you.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
That's a great idea, because we put out there to give
us questions and we're gettingthem.
But how about also give us someof your highs?
Tell us some of the things thatyou've done and how you've
overcome certain things, andwe'll tell all that too.
We would love to hear all ofthis.
So here we go.
All right, let's go for thegold.
(01:31):
I mean, these are intensequestions, like.
I'm so honored that thesepeople are coming out and
trusting us like they are.
What strategies can the blacksheep use to foster empathy and
awareness, to try to relate totheir siblings as the golden
child excuse me within anarcissistic family?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah, I think it's important, not just with the
golden child but, dare I say,even with the narcissistic
parents or parents, because Ihad to do this with my mother
who, as I often say, is the cruxof my existence.
But you know, we have toremember we're all going through
(02:16):
our own human experience.
Where we are in our level ofhealing, in our self-awareness,
in what we are willing toconfront and what we're willing
to accept is different fromwhere another person is.
So we can't apply ourperspectives to somebody else
and we can't have thoseexpectations of them as well.
(02:39):
It would be nice if otherpeople were on the same level we
are, or thought the same as wedo, but they're not.
You know, and just to givesomebody an example, because I'm
using all these words, you knowspecifically, my mother had me
when she was a teenager.
She was obviously unwed andduring a time when that was not
(03:03):
socially acceptable, she did notwant me anymore before she had
me than after she had me.
So I had to deal with her shame.
But part of my healing wascoming to terms with the fact
and something that should maybebe obvious, but it never was,
until you know I'm 48 now thatshe was a baby herself and she
(03:26):
had a drunk, narcissistic father.
My grandma was just at her witsend, always finding her husband
with other women in theirliving room and their bedroom
and their wherever, and he wasabusive physically and my mother
was dealing with all this stuff.
So I have to believe she wasjust incapable of taking care of
(03:49):
me or helping me through theabuse that I endured at the
hands of her husband.
Mothers do, but I have.
I had to step back and kind ofgive her that grace of okay.
She had her own stuff going on.
(04:09):
Some people, I think, weretrying the best they could,
didn't know better, whatever,but that was the situation.
And once I was able to stepaway from it and kind of turn
things around to her perspective.
Same as my brother, the goldenchild, I love him dearly but his
life experience is that he hasa very loving mother and a very
(04:32):
loving father who have beensupportive and encouraging and
all these things.
It doesn't matter to him, norshould it, that I had a
different experience, a verypolar opposite experience.
So he cannot understand whereI'm coming from.
He can't have my perspectivebecause that wasn't his frame of
(04:52):
reference.
So again, sometimes we have toremember.
This is our experience, just asthey're entitled to theirs.
Once you can separate that, youcan stop having these
expectations that they'resupposed to be this or fulfill
this role in your life and withthat you can have more
acceptance of what actually is.
(05:14):
I hope that answered thequestion.
I'm not even sure it did, Ithink so.
I'm just trying to go on.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I think so.
I want to take a second.
It's a question, there's aquestion here, but I just want
to.
And I wrote her and said can Iread this part on air?
And she said yes, but I'm notgoing to say her name.
She wrote to me and said I wantto thank both of you for
letting me finally see the lightwithin my darkness of my life.
I had no idea that I was livingin the situation that I was in.
(05:44):
I thought it was all me.
I've tried to commit suicide.
I don't even enjoy going toschool anymore.
I literally thought I was theworst human being on the planet,
because that's what my everydaylife was.
I knew nothing different until Istarted listening to you guys.
I'm not even sure how I foundyou, but now I listen every time
(06:06):
there's a new episode Becauseof you.
I realized that I am not atfault, I'm not ashamed, and I am
now seeking therapy andcounseling at my high school for
the first time in my life.
I cannot wait to get out ofthis house and get on with my
life and understanding how tomove forward, but I'm stuck here
until then.
I'm curious, as this is thebeginning of my journey and
understanding how to moveforward, but I'm stuck here
until then.
I'm curious, as this is thebeginning of my journey and I'm
(06:28):
just starting to see the light,thanks to the two of you what do
you consider the definingcharacteristics of that black
sheep character in anarcissistic family dynamic?
Because I've just learned thatthat's who my identity really is
.
Well, first of all, yay, sohappy I like.
I wrote to her this longmessage and I said can I please
(06:50):
write that?
I won't say name, I won't sayanything, yes, yes, yes, yes.
She was so happy and shecouldn't believe that you know,
that we wrote her back and I waslike oh, we'll love to have you
on, we'll change your name,we'll change everything.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
I don't think she's anywhere ready for that, but I
give her such kudos because whata step, what a huge, huge step.
Because I think we carry somuch shame within ourselves and
we start to we usuallyinternalize all these things,
these people tell us about whowe are and who we're supposed to
be or who they think we arethat we start to think there is
really something wrong with us.
But it's so hard to admit likeI need help with this because
you don't want to really believethat about yourself.
(07:35):
So reaching out and at such ayoung age, this is huge.
(07:56):
And I have to say to whoeverthis is like, I totally feel you
on this.
Like she's high school, I waslike 12, 13, 14, I was just like
counting down, like how longtill I'm 18?
When can I get out of here?
Because there's a differencewhen you're a kid and you have
no rights and the police didn'tdo anything for me, child
services didn't do anything forme, nobody was helping me, so I
(08:16):
literally was stuck.
It's not like an adultrelationship where you have the
option of leaving if you sochoose.
So that's a huge thing and Iknow just understand that.
I know and I know you do too.
How hard that is to feelliterally trapped like,
basically like an animal in acage, having to endure all these
(08:39):
things and tolerate all thisjust to stay alive and keep your
head above water.
That in itself, nobody shouldhave to do that, but there is
strength in doing that thatnobody understands unless
they've been there.
So kudos, kudos, just know itwill be okay.
(09:00):
I promise you it'll be okay.
Just keep going down this pathof awareness and let us help you
reach out again if you need to.
But she was or she or he, Idon't know was asking okay, what
is the defining characteristicof a black sheep?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
That she just realized from the glimpse of
light what are the actualdefining characteristics of the
black sheep.
As I now realize, that's who Iam and my narcissistic family
dynamic.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
I think it's just being the truth seer.
You are the one person who seeseverything how it really is,
versus those rose-coloredglasses that we're handed and
told to wear because this is howwe want the world to perceive
us.
But we, whether we're wearingthe glasses or not, we're just
(09:53):
like it's all crap, it's all BS,it's all a facade.
I used to call it my the happyfamily facade.
I was supposed to play my rolein this farce of a family and I
didn't want to because it wasn't.
It wasn't real, it wasn'tfreaking real, you know, because
what was happening inside thehouse versus what we were
(10:14):
portraying outside, which it wasjust all crap.
So you're seeing the truth andthat's your core value and it's
a wonderful thing.
So don't ever feel ashamed forbeing the black sheep, the
scapegoat, the outsider, thewhatever you want to call it,
because there's more value inseeing truth in people than in
(10:35):
following a lie, because so manypeople are.
I mean, look at all the peoplewho believe the lie.
Look at all the people whobelieve that external, that
facade.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
It's much better to see the truth, just hold on to
it and know it's not you,there's nothing wrong with you,
it's them, I promise Dana, Iwant to take it a step further,
if we can, because this is ahigh school girl who reached out
and she's seeking therapy,which I'm so unbelievably proud
of her for.
She's admitted that she's, youknow, attempted suicide and
(11:11):
she's, you know, felt like she'sa lost cause and she's really
at that very first step ofhealing.
And it's so critical becausehow I read what she wrote to us
was that she literally feelslike nobody's in her corner.
So I told her to make sure shelistens.
I'm going to make sure thisepisode is the next one we
release so she can hear it.
(11:33):
I told her, you know she couldreach out at any time, but I
want to take a moment for herand for others that might just
be where she is.
And the thing is is that you'rea threat to your narcissistic
parents?
And it took me decades anddecades and decades, and Dana it
took me decades and Dana tofigure these out, because Dana
(11:54):
helped me.
And you have to realize thatthey put all this on you because
they're trying to make you outto be the bad person.
They're trying to place blame onyou because they cannot admit
fault, they cannot admit theirmistakes and so they think that
you're strong enough and you'reintimidation to them.
(12:14):
You're an intimidation to thembecause that's why you're the
black sheep, that's why theytalk so negative about you,
that's why they put the blame onyou, that's why they cut out
your self-esteem, becausethey're trying to lower your own
opinion of your self-worth.
And if you're not thinking thatyou are who you are, then they
can, like, belittle you and tearyou down.
(12:35):
And you need to realize no,don't let anybody tear you down,
don't let anybody tear you down, because I am sure that you are
a beautiful person inside andout.
I know you are because at yourage I'm guessing you're between
16 and 18, that you're at thispoint in your life where you're
(12:56):
already recognizing where I'mtelling you I was much later in
the life game before I realizedand I don't know where Dana was,
age wise.
Where were you when yourealized?
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Oh, I was younger I, it was definitely before I was
10, but definitely by the time Iwas 15, I saw everything.
It was blatantly obvious.
So I completely relate to thisperson.
You know and I agree with 100%of what you're saying.
I'm just going to add one thingreal quick, though.
It's the fact that narcissistsand it doesn't matter if it's
(13:33):
your parents, your spouse, afriend, a coworker they are very
intuitive, believe it or not,they know that you're on to them
, they know you see throughtheir BS.
That is why you're a threat.
Yes, that is why you are athreat.
It's your ability to see whatother people don't see.
(13:54):
And you know, I used to alwayswonder like why do I rub people
so wrong?
Like I can walk into a room andit's like I stir up everybody's
demons.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
And I now realize it's not a bad thing.
It's almost a superpower that Ihave, but it's all about
perspective, so don't feelashamed of that.
I think it's a very, I thinkit's an amazing thing to have
such a strong and powerful mind,to know what's what and to be
(14:26):
able to discern at a young age.
So go with it, embrace it,accept it and let that guide you
in your healing, because Ipromise you it will.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Well, another thing I want to say that I'm so glad
that, for whatever reason, youwere unable to complete the act
that was attempted more thanonce, because you did say that
you attempted more than once.
You have a purpose, you have areason to be here, and a split
decision to take your life givesthem power because they're
(15:00):
going to use it.
Believe me, don't give themthat.
They don't deserve it.
They don't earn it.
You have a purpose here andmaybe you don't know that just
yet.
You're not on that part of thatpath, but you will be and you
need to realize that you areworth living.
You are worth the life you weregiven, that you're an
intimidation to others becauseyou have truth, you have your
(15:23):
own self-worth and you're aperson that that's worth getting
up in the morning and smilingand saying you know what?
Screw them.
I'm better than that, becauseI'm not trying to tear people
down.
I'm trying to help people.
I'm not this horrible personput in front of me.
I am a good person and becauseof that they are threatened by
(15:43):
me.
Don't give them thesatisfaction of trying to take
your life or doing things tohurt yourself, because you don't
need to do that to yourselfbecause you're better than that.
You deserve better than that.
And think about it this way youare already surviving 100% of
the worst days.
You've already overcome all ofthat behind you.
(16:04):
But please, please, please,realize that.
You know, before I went throughmy domestic violence with my ex,
I never thought I would be theabused wife.
I never thought I would be.
But after going through thatand realizing that my biological
parents put him in my life likeI had no idea of that, parents
(16:25):
put him in my life Like I had noidea of that, and then I
started really cause.
I did all my therapy based onhim and when I was younger I was
in therapy.
But I was in therapy as to whymy grandparents treated me more
like their child than my parentstreated me like their child and
I never knew narcissism at thatage.
I never knew, you know, I hadsuch blinders on.
I didn't want to recognize that, why I was so different.
(16:46):
I, when I was little, I thought, okay, it's because I'm a girl
and he's a boy.
My, my brother's a boy, somaybe that's why.
But I just didn't take thattime to really learn about it.
And then I realized this iswhat I'm here, for I'm here to
help people.
I'm here to be a voice.
I'm here to help people.
I'm here to be a voice.
I'm here to help other peoplerealize you are worth so much
more.
(17:07):
And you know it took me a longtime and I might get some
ridicule about that.
This is fine, but it took mesuch a long time to realize.
Now I go back and look at youknow my, my prequel, nart Nart
who's there is literally when Iwrote it, I had to put evidence
in it because I was made out tobe the liar.
I wrote it.
(17:27):
I had to put evidence in itbecause I was made out to be the
liar the horrific piece of, asI've been called and I'm not a
racist in any way I've beencalled white trash.
I've been told oh, you put yournumber on a bus station to find
a man.
You are never worth being loved.
Look at you.
You look like Freddy Kruegerand the Elephant man had a child
together.
You know I heard these everysingle day.
I heard you know I wish Imiscarried you instead and I was
(17:47):
nine and that stays with youfor the rest of your life.
And when you hear all of these,it took me until I was in my
forties that I realized, wow,they're really miserable people
and they are trying so hardbecause you hear the the phrase
all the time misery lovescompany.
But all these people aroundthem saw the money, they saw the
power of who they were, and tohell with the child who survived
(18:12):
this horrific domestic violence.
You don't have surgery tocorrect something that isn't
broken if it's not cosmetic,right.
And so I've had over 100surgeries and none of them have
been elective.
I haven't been able to getanything I want done.
It's all like I tell people ina joking manner if I want to get
a fix up.
You know I don't go forcosmetic.
I get a WD-40 to them becauseI'm all metal everywhere.
(18:35):
You know I'm bionic and andliterally you know, I my life.
I have to have hearing aids tohear.
I have a prosthetic arm that Irefuse to wear.
You know my shoulder is isTitanic, titanium.
I'm.
Everything's been replaced andyou know what?
I'm still here.
How many times have they triedto take me down and fail, and
(18:57):
you know what?
Look at that.
It doesn't matter how manytimes.
If it's one or 100 or 1000, itdoesn't matter.
It matters that you are a goodperson with a good heart and a
good sense of self.
That you realized right awayOnce you started listening oh my
God, that's me.
And then you took the step onyour own to go and start getting
help, and that takes a verystrong person and young lady.
(19:22):
I'm here to tell you I'm proudof you.
I think that you are so abovewhere you think you are.
I will be happy to speak withyou one-on-one.
I'm sure I'm not meaning tospeak for Dana.
I'm sure she would do it.
I know I would do it.
We do it together, uh, ifyou're more comfortable with
that, but I have such respectfor you because you have
(19:43):
literally just seen a light andthat little tiny flicker that
you see, my dear, can start awildfire and you need to realize
that you hold your head up highand realize that you are a
fantastic young lady 100% agree.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
And no, I love that Because I think that a lot of
people need to hear that, notjust this person, because I
think that's something that wemiss.
We come here and we're.
I know I felt that way too, andeven in my preteen years I was
like why am I even here?
Why did I get you know?
(20:25):
Why was I born so I couldsuffer?
Why am I everybody's punchingbag?
This sucks, and I want it outtoo.
I just didn't.
I have no pain tolerance.
If you pinch me, I'll cry, so Icouldn't hurt myself.
So thank God for that, thoughthat you know.
And and whether you believe inGod or not, I do.
I think that there's a reasonthat he protected me through my
(20:47):
abusive childhood, through myviolent marriage and all the
times.
And for the person that wrotein and anyone else who can
relate, if you've ever thoughtabout suicide or just even had
the glint of an idea that youdon't want to be here me too
even had the glint of an ideathat you don't want to be here
(21:08):
me too, even as recently I'mgoing to say a September of this
year.
It sucks, because sometimes ourminds go back there, but it's
not that you don't want to live,it's that you don't want to
hurt anymore.
But you don't have to hurtanymore and when you are ready,
when you are ready, you canreach out to Victoria, to me, to
somebody you know and trust, tosomebody in your community.
(21:31):
I promise you there are peoplethat will help you find the
right resource and the rightperson to help you along,
because not everybody isequipped, not everybody gets it,
not everybody you know is goingto respond very well to you or
you to them.
But the right person is outthere and when you are ready, I
(21:53):
promise you we can get you the.
This is why Victoria and I geteach other.
It took us into our forties tolike, get to where we're, like
okay, and we're not crying onChristmas because mommy didn't
invite us to her house.
(22:15):
We don't want to go, it's okay,right, but there was a time
where you feel excluded, youfeel like you shouldn't be here.
You feel you feel all.
We've all felt those shameful,awful things.
So just understand that you arehere for a reason.
If I had made a silly choice notto be here, there are a lot of
(22:39):
things that wouldn't happen andyou know, same with you,
victoria, we are here and we'restrong willed and we're brought
the information we need so thatwe can keep fighting for
ourselves, and that's what youshould do.
So if anyone else has everstruggled with hurting that
badly, that you just feel likemaybe not being here is a better
(23:01):
option, I promise you you don'thave to live that way.
And that's not a better option.
And you think you're alone, butreally I promise you you're not
as alone as you think.
There are people.
There might be people you don'teven know yet, that you just
haven't met, that are going tobe your ride or dies, and so
just hang in there a littlelonger, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
And those days go bad , they go away, and then they
get better, and then you're likeman, I could have missed this.
You know, and and it's worththe, it's worth fighting for,
you are worth fighting for andto hell with them.
You know one of the things Iwould say, you know, to help you
get through this.
And and when I and I want tostress this when I was younger,
(23:47):
I would get the silent treatmentand it destroyed me because I
didn't understand why am Igetting ignored?
Like you have to understand.
Like, picture your biologicalparents in the room with you.
So there's three of you in theroom and my biological dad would
look at my biological motherand say tell her X, y and Z, and
I'm like I can hear you, I'mright here.
But it didn't matter, because herefused to look at me, he
refused to speak to me, and soshe would convey it and I'd be
(24:09):
like I'm not talking to you toget to him, I'm going to you
know, and then he would justlike and he'd walk away.
And he even did the silenttreatment to Faye, you know,
when she was little, and it'slike now I go back and look at
that and I was like what a giftyou get because you stop
speaking to me.
So if you can get them to giveyou the silent treatment, girl,
go for it, because they're goingto leave you alone and it might
(24:32):
really hurt in the beginning,but it's not as painful as the
bull crap that will come out oftheir face the rest of the time.
And now I'm upset with myselfbecause I'm like dadgummit.
I should have made him give methe freaking silent treatment
all the time, because then Ididn't have to hear it, I didn't
have to deal with it, theydidn't want me around, but the
minute they needed me forsomething you better believe it
(24:54):
was all rainbows and teddy bears.
But trust me, get them to getyou quiet, like if they if they,
you know have the opportunityto give you the silent treatment
, go for it.
Make sure they give it to youbecause that's your peace and
quiet until the next phase whereyou get out.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah, I am a silent treatment person too.
I loathe it, I hate it.
But I think the silenttreatment's hard because it just
makes you feel like well, letme backtrack here.
I think the core of it why ithurts us so much is because
that's your mom, that's your dad, or, if it's later in life,
(25:32):
it's your husband, it's yourwife.
Like what the hell they'resupposed to be, my people that
are like for me, if nobody elseis, they're supposed to be on,
and so when they reject you,it's like, oh, my goodness
gracious, like how can they ifthey can't even love me?
Nobody will.
So it's just a matter of I.
(25:53):
Oh, I'm sorry.
All I was going to say is that Ithink we have to remember that
just because you were born outof somebody does not mean that
there's some inherent naturethat you're both going to get
along.
It's okay to not get along withthe parents.
It's okay to not get along withrelatives, brothers, sisters,
whoever, just like you go towork, you might not get along
(26:16):
with everybody.
You might not get along witheverybody in a class at school.
That's just life.
So if you take that expectationout that my mother is supposed
to this or my father is supposedto that.
Take that out of it.
They are human beings, like kindof where we started with that
first question.
They're humans, they're havingtheir own experience and
(26:38):
unfortunately, some humans can'tfulfill their obligations and
their dutiful roles to theirchildren and it sucks and it's
awful.
But don't let that deter you,because there are plenty of
other people in your life now orthat you will come across.
You and I, victoria, we're veryfortunate, we had our grandmas,
my great grandma, but there arealways people and I have people
(27:01):
now that say that they wishthat I was their daughter and
they would adopt me right now,at 48.
And I love that because theyhave no obligation to care about
me that much.
But they do so.
To hell with people that aren'tfor you.
If they're biologically relatedor not, your people are your
people and that's just what itis.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Right, but I mean, I don't know about you, but like
if I had the opportunity tochoose, would I rather be little
constantly, day after day,while I'm still residing in the
house with them, or have them besilent and not speak to me at
all.
I'd rather have them be silent.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I used to lock myself in my room as a kid and all the
way through my teenage yearslike just I would just literally
be by myself because I don'twant to hear them, I don't want
to interact with them.
I don't want to hear them, Idon't want to interact with them
, I didn't want any part of them, and so it's just fine.
It hurts still because, like Isaid, I held on to that
expectation, that.
But it's my mother, my mother'ssupposed to.
(27:59):
Once I decided to let that crapgo, because the reality is it's
crap.
I came out of somebody, but thatdoesn't mean that we have to
get along.
She likes her other kid betterand I'm glad for him.
I'm glad he, my brother, didn'thave to endure the same
childhood I did, because that'swhat I was afraid of, but he
didn't, so he got the good partsof them.
(28:20):
Thank God it was just me.
I'm handling it, I tookresponsibility and I'm good.
But that's what we have to dois just.
You know it's a little selfish,but you just got to worry about
you.
They have unhealed trauma.
That's their problem, theirissue.
What they say and what they doto you is also believe it or not
their problem.
It really has nothing to dowith you, except for the fact
(28:43):
that you see through their crap.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
So you know, my therapist is hilarious and she,
she says something to me one daywhen I was just like I don't
understand, I don't get it, whyam I not?
You know, I'm nothing like them, how can I be there?
As I'm adopted, I was left at afire station and she looked at
me and she goes sweetheart, youcan pick your nose, pick your
ass.
You can pick your nose, pickyour ass.
(29:06):
You can't be parents and I likelost it.
I mean it was just like she'sgot a point, like that's true,
you know, like she's, she'sright, you can't, you know,
think about it like that, youknow, I mean you just gotta.
And it goes the other wayaround too.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
I used to know a 90 some year old lady and she had
had nine children and she toldme one day that she only liked
one of them.
It sounded like such a terriblething to say, but I'm like you
know what she's being honest.
I mean, just because you havethem doesn't mean you have to
like them.
So that's true, it's mutual,because I met several of them
(29:42):
and, believe me, they didn'tlike her much either.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Now you'll see why we can't get through all this.
All right, let's get to ourthird one.
How can individuals fromnarcissistic backgrounds
advocate?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
for relationships and parenting.
I'm not sure what they'retrying to ask.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
I didn't either, but I wrote a verbatim of what was
asked.
So how?
Speaker 2 (30:13):
can individuals from narcissistic backgrounds
advocate for relationships inparenting?
If I'm interpreting thatcorrectly and forgive me whoever
wrote in, I'm just guessingbecause it sounds like it's a
good question.
I think it just goes back to abasic idea of you came out of
this.
You know this childhood withnarcissistic parents like you
(30:34):
and I both have Victoria.
And then all of a sudden you'rea parent, whether by choice or
by accident.
You're like, oh my gosh, whatdo I do?
How do I know how to parent,when this is what I had for a
frame of reference and I mean wejust talked about choices.
But I think that's what itcomes down to.
That's what it was for me,because very early on also,
(30:56):
everything kind of happened.
When my hormones happened, like12, 13 years old, I was like
there's no way I'm ever having achild.
I will never.
I don't want a kid, I don'twant to be a mother.
I was not one of those littlegirls that played with baby
dolls or anything, never Didn'twant to play house, none of that
, because I was afraid I wouldturn into my mother and or
(31:17):
stepfather.
And as you get older, you hearthese things about oh, whether
you like it or not, you're goingto turn into your parents and I
was like there's no way in heck, I am going to do that.
So I think that by the time Igot to that age in my later 20s
where I was like, oh crap, Ireally do actually want a kid
because everyone else is havingone and I kind of want one now
(31:39):
and you know, your biologicalclock kicks in, I realized I
could have a child and that Iwas capable of loving that child
and making sure that child, bychoice, did not experience one
iota of what I went through withmy mother and stepfather.
So that's what I did and youknow he jokes to this day.
(32:00):
My son is 21.
And there's this joke that I'mlike Marie and everybody loves
Raymond.
You know the mother who'salways.
I'm not, I'm not a meddler or acontroller, but I mean I love
my son, like Marie loves Raymond.
You know I don't have anotherkid, but I have a golden child
in my one child because I lovehim that much and I will do
(32:23):
anything and everything to makesure his life is good and he
knows he can ask me anythinganytime and maybe that's
coddling and maybe that'sspoiling.
I call it love because that'smy kid and I can and I want to,
and that's just what it is.
And so he is very well adjusted, despite what we went through
(32:44):
in my first marriage to his dad.
He is very social, he is verysuccessful at his job.
He makes a ridiculous amount ofmoney Not that that's
necessarily a measure of successbut he has had everything go
very well for him, whereassomebody else in the same
(33:04):
situation would have, morelikely just as I could have,
just as likely and you as wellgone into drugs and low
motivation, low achievement.
So I am glad whether it's justhim and I got lucky or if I
really did do a good job, maybea combination did do a good job,
(33:27):
maybe a combination.
But it's a choice and you havethat choice to make.
As far as the advocating aspectof that question, how do you
advocate for parenting?
I think that if you're gettingat like, how can you convince
people not to be narcissisticparents?
If that's what you're gettingat, I don't think that's
possible.
I personally don't feel.
(33:47):
Even though narcissism issupposedly a personality
disorder, I don't believe thatit can be rehabilitated.
I don't think that a narcissistwould go to therapy unless
there was some benefit orsomething they could get out of
it, which is usually makingsomebody else look crazy or
stupid.
That's the only thing theycould really benefit from, but
(34:10):
they wouldn't go to therapy.
They would never evenacknowledge that there's a
weakness.
These are people who won'tadmit to being depressed or
anxious or anything, becausenothing's wrong with them.
So I don't think you canadvocate or help in any way to
prevent narcissistic parenting.
A person's either a narcissistor they're not, and it's
(34:30):
unfortunate that they're justkind of out there and being able
to do what they do to people.
So we as individuals have toset those boundaries and protect
ourselves from whatever they'redoing, whether they're a parent
, whether they're a child,whether they're whoever in our
lives.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yes, absolutely.
You know, talk about advocating.
The only thing I can add tothat that I was thinking is like
the narcissist will never go totherapy.
They believe I'll put you on acouch but I'm not joining on it.
And so when Faith was I guessshe was probably about seven or
eight um, I made it clear thatthat my biological mother needed
(35:10):
to come to an appointment, sheadamantly was like I'm not
wasting my time, I'm not wastingmy day, I got better things to
do, I'm not doing it like it wasjust awful.
And I was like, well, you getto talk about how she annoys you
.
And she's like I'm going.
And I was like, when sherealized that she was gonna bad
mouth my kid, yeah, I didn'ttell her who we were seeing or
anything like that.
(35:30):
So we get to the appointmentand we go in there and I've
always had multiple therapists,counselors, psychiatrists,
psychologists for Faith to have,so she knows there's someone
else for her to talk to, outsideof just me from the jump.
Because, know, from the jump,she hasn't had the normal baby
life and the toddler life and soI've always wanted her to be
(35:50):
able to go and talk to whomevershe felt needed that it wasn't
just me, that she had thoseavenues.
So I didn't tell and donor, andwe get there and we walk in and
this is a spitfire and thewoman is a spitfire, and so we
go in there and they took faithinto the playroom, um, with a
therapist, and she was like well, you know, I've been treating
(36:11):
faith for a while now and I Ialways hear about the
complications between you,grandma, and faith.
And she's like do you know whyshe calls you mimi?
And she was like no, and shegoes.
Do you want me to tell you?
She's like?
No, she goes.
Well, I'm going to tell youanyway.
And she goes.
She called you Mimi becauseeverything is about you, you,
(36:32):
you, you, you.
So it's me, me, me, me, me,right, and she's like I want you
to realize that yourgranddaughter is a proxy.
So she can't with a proxy, youreally don't do m's, and you
know she doesn't have a tongue.
So for her to go above andbeyond and still say me, me, me,
me, me, and call you me, me isjust a lesson, right.
(36:56):
So she, she's like so why do youhave a problem?
And she goes well, I'll tellher to do something.
And she'll be like you're notmy mom and you know she goes.
Well, okay, and she goes.
What do you tell her to do thatshe wouldn't do that?
She's like well, I told her youknow, you don't have to be nice
to your mother, you do what Isay.
And she's like no, you're notmy mom.
And she'll say you know, didyou tell her that you were okay
(37:17):
if her daughter didn't make iton on surgery?
She's like yeah, and then she'slike why, even here, like, and
all she did was try and spin itand the psychiatrist that we
were in there with just reallyturned it on her and it was
great.
And then when she realized that, she turned it on me and she
was like well, all she caresabout is taking care of her kid.
(37:38):
Like, she doesn't give me thetime of day, she doesn't help me
do anything, she doesn't doanything.
And the therapist says therapistsays well, do you do anything
for your daughter?
You know, were you there whenyour daughter was dying in the
ICU?
Did you go see her?
She's like no, she goes well.
When your daughter andgranddaughter were in the ICU,
did you go see them?
No, what about yourgranddaughter and daughter said
hey, spend the night and have agirl's night.
What'd you say?
(37:58):
I'm not giving up my bed, youknow.
And she was so disturbed andbothered that we made her come
to this and we tricked her,which we did and I openly admit
that.
But it was just, you know, forthe therapist.
She's like for me to help Faith, I need to hear your side, you
know.
And then she was like Faithcomes in here and she's like my
baby frustrates me so bad.
(38:19):
And she's like why does shefrustrate you?
She's like because I don't likehow she talks to my mom and my
mom will let me talk back to herthe way I want to.
And then she's like well, thatchild shouldn't be talking to me
the way she does.
And this one over here, you know, always tells her, you know she
can't talk to me like that andso she doesn't talk to me.
And I said I've taught her thateven though she's your
(38:41):
granddaughter, you have to berespectful and that she can't
tell you to go to hell, becausefaith will tell you to go to
hell.
Faith will tell you veryquickly to go to hell.
And I was like I told her shecan't do that because she has to
be respectful and you know,when she told me, I don't care
if you don't come off the ortable, I put my hand over
faith's mouth and said goupstairs, go out.
She's like no, I'm gonna, likeyou know, and faith is just like
(39:03):
let me have her, nope.
So I'm kind of thinking that'swhat they're talking about,
about advocating is like tryingto find a way maybe to bring
things to fruition so that maybeit can be worked on by all
parties.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
But yeah, that's not gonna happen with a narcissist
right they.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
They don't believe they need help.
They don't believe that theyneed to go and seek anybody,
like I constantly heard fromthem.
Why do you go see somebody acouple times a week like, why?
And are you talking about uslike they're paranoid?
Are you talking about us?
What are you saying about us?
Why are you talking about us?
You know these were things thatwere constant, not how can we
(39:41):
make things better for you oranything like that.
So to me it's like trying toget somebody to do something you
know they're never going to do.
You're never going to get anarcissist to really sit down
and say I'm so wrong.
How can I fix this?
I need to better myself for mychildren.
(40:02):
It's just not going to happen.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah, and it's not even just for the children, it's
not for anybody, not even forthemselves, because we have to
remember and there's a lot herebut narcissists operate solely
out of their ego.
Whatever fills their ego,that's all that matters to them,
it's all about them.
(40:25):
Literally, even thosenarcissists that come off
charitable and generous no, no,no, no, no.
They are getting admiration andpraise and all this stuff from
other people.
They're basically sucking thisenergy out of other people so
they feel good about themselves,so they can uphold this image
that they're putting out ofother people, so they feel good
about themselves, so they canuphold this image that they're
(40:46):
putting out of what wonderfulpeople they are.
But it's all a farce.
So, yeah, we have to remember.
But I want to say one thing too, is that this, what you just
said, basically speaks to cause.
I think it's important.
I always kind of put off thewhole idea of help.
I'm, but I was also surroundedby three prime people in my life
(41:10):
mother, stepfather and firsthusband who were all telling me
and other people that I wascrazy and mentally unstable and
unfit to care for my son andthis, and that because they had
to make sure my credibility wasshot because they knew I would
eventually speak up and exposeeverything and expose them,
which is exactly why yourparents were concerned about you
(41:33):
.
Know you going to therapy?
Like, why are they saying, whatare you saying?
What are you saying about us?
They don't want theirreputation smeared.
They don't mind ruining yourreputation, but theirs has to be
pristine.
So it's a very big deal to beable to get past the shame of it
and be able to admit like, okay, I'm listening to podcasts, I'm
(41:54):
watching YouTubes, I'm readingbooks, but I need a little more.
I need more one-on-one, I needa little more help getting there
.
I need somebody to hold my handand help me the rest of the way
.
But you have to be open to it,just like a narcissist would
have to be open to any kind ofrehabilitation or therapy, which
(42:16):
they never would be.
There are, believe it or not,and we see them all over social
media and in our lives, peoplewho really could use some
healing, and I admit I was oneof them, and there were many
people that approached me andsaid can I help, can I support
you?
I was like oh, not me, I'm good, I'm fine, I'm getting there, I
(42:36):
can do it on my own?
Well, no, I couldn't, but I hadto be ready and I wouldn't be
receptive until I was ready toadmit and accept that I couldn't
do it on my own.
So that's just a little plugfor anybody who's on the fence.
There is no shame in askingsomebody for help or to reach
out for that, because we all arejust trying to get to the same
(43:00):
place, which is to some innerpeace and the ability to enjoy
and find the joys and see thejoys in the present and future
and not be stuck in the past andall that mucking crap that bogs
us down.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
So Right, and here's a perfect example.
You'll know that a narcissistwill never want to get help,
because and I'll give thescenario and let Dana talk about
it it's not really a scenarioin my book.
I'm not going to go through thewhole thing I ended up having to
have multiple surgeries on myarm prior to my amputation.
And I saw I went after and saylegal counsel, and the counselor
(43:36):
was somebody I knew and he wasa really great person he still
is and when we sat down withthem and I explained that there
was a little history he neededto know about, well, first I was
told I wasn't allowed to tellmy counselor and and counselor I
mean attorney.
And so when my attorney saidyou know, what else am I not
gonna know?
I want to know anything thatcould become a surprise to us.
(43:58):
And he was like we need to goafter the physical therapist as
well, because the physicaltherapist obviously wasn't doing
the right treatment, obviouslycaused more issues.
Um, and I was like, well, thisis going to be a problem.
And the attorney says, well,why?
And I was like, and I just lookover, and my biological dad,
and he was like what?
And I was like, well, there's alittle thing going on over
(44:19):
there.
And when my attorney found outhe's like you have to stop it.
He's like, now, stop it now.
And he was like, no, nobody'sgoing to tell me what I can and
can't do.
I deserve to be happy.
She doesn't want me to be happy.
Do you think I'm going throughall this on my arm to keep you
from being happy?
I mean, how far-fetched are you?
And then he kept saying you'vegot to stop it.
(44:41):
He goes when we go to trial.
This is going to come out.
It's going to come out that youare taking her to a hotel out
of town and that you're going todinner with her and you're
lying to your wife about her.
And you know and I'm talkingabout my physical therapist,
that's who he was you know, andso, with that being said, he
actually looked at me and said,quote, unquote, you need to fall
(45:02):
on the sword and you need tonot pursue this legally because
this can't come out in court,because your mother can't find
out about it.
I mean, I don't, I'm going tolet David say what she wants to
say about this, but like that tome has been the perfect example
of a real narcissist whodoesn't give one rat's behind
(45:23):
about anybody but themselves.
I mean, you have a child wholiterally was losing a limb and
he was worried about his secondhit.
Sorry, but you know that's whatit was.
When faith, this early in thisyear, went into multi-organ
failure, I told the doctors youimmediately send me over to the
hospital across the street.
I'm donating my kidney, youtake whatever else you need.
(45:44):
If you need a piece of liver,if you need whatever, you take
it.
It was not even a secondhesitation.
It was like let's go, like testme, go, and you know what it's,
just do it.
And I was like and then I'llrecover back here in the
hospital with her.
Not even a second thought.
But when your biological fathersays you're gonna have to
follow the sword because itcan't come out court that I'm
(46:08):
hanging around, if you will andthat's the wrong terminology
with this woman.
That, to me, is the epitomedefinition of the narcissist.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Yeah, and I.
That's all I was going to sayactually, because I mean we
could have a whole otherdiscussion about narcissism.
And I did read your book, narcNarc who's there, and I remember
all of that and it was soatrocious.
But it speaks exactly to whatnarcissism is when you said that
you had to fall on the swordfor the sake of his reputation
(46:40):
and so that his wife didn't knowabout the infidelity, and not
that it was the first or thelast time.
But that is the whole thing.
It's about them.
It's about you having to takethe fall.
You have to be crazy, you haveto be delusional, you have to
take the like.
I said, I always felt like thepunching bag, always just being
(47:00):
walked all over.
It didn't matter how I felt orwhat I needed, or it didn't
matter that I was a child, itdidn't matter that.
You know, same thing when I,when I had my son.
None of it matters, the animals, the cats and dogs running
around don't matter they.
I tell people to liken it tohaving an intervention with
(47:23):
somebody about drugs or alcohol.
You can give them a gazillionreasons why they should stop.
You know shooting up withheroin, or I don't even know
what you should up with.
That shows how much I know.
Or to stop drinking, whateverit is for your newborn baby, for
your wife, for your motherwho's on her dying bed and it's
her last language they don'tcare.
(47:45):
They don't care, they.
And until somebody cares,nothing is going to change.
So that's just narcissism, and Ithink you just you know people
are so concerned about like whata narcissist is and what
narcissist qualities are.
I just call it.
When somebody intentionallyharms and disrespects you,
(48:05):
that's it, and you can call itwhatever you want, and they
don't need to even be abusivenecessarily.
They could just be annoyingwith it.
Or you know, that's not thekind of relationship you want,
no matter who it is in your life.
That is not serving you or yourpurpose and nobody should have
(48:25):
to dishonor themselves bytolerating it.
You know, if you want to go toChristmas every year at the
family and and believe me, weall have that person that's like
you don't want to go becauseyou don't want to run into them
and but you know what, you cango and say hello or don'ts,
whatever, and just not interactwith them.
(48:46):
But as far as having a regularrelationship with these kinds of
people, no, no, move on.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
Right, 100%.
Well, we got through one morepage.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
We'll get there eventually, but keep sending
them in.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
And you know what, I love that and people start
giving us what you've done.
Give us some of the examples ofthings you've done to overcome
what you've done.
I love that.
I love the interaction, youknow.
Eventually I would like to seeif anybody wants to come on,
maybe after.
Maybe you know a few more ofthe episodes where we're talking
about what people have done andsome questions they might have
(49:26):
Um it.
It would be up to them, ofcourse, if they felt comfortable
enough to come on.
But uh, the fact that it'sreaching the numbers, that it is
and it's helping so many people, it is just amazing.
It really is uh to know that wecan make even a difference in
one person like that, thatbeautiful high school girl who
(49:49):
said I had no idea what I wasliving in until I heard your
podcast.
And that's well wortheverything that we do, at least
in my opinion, because it's just.
You know, nobody should gothrough this alone.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Well and it's interesting because I was just
talking to somebody the otherday and brought it up about my
first book, gasping for Air,which was about my first
marriage.
Thank you, but the part that wewere talking about was that it
was a chapter in the booktowards the end where I was
(50:23):
filling out a form for an orderof protection.
I had been with him for 24years at this point.
So I had endured an abusivechildhood with two narcissistic
parents, 24 years with mynarcissistic husband and I
finally had the nerve because Ifelt like I had some nerve going
(50:45):
to the courthouse and askingfor an order of protection.
But when guns and knives startgetting involved, you start
getting scared enough Althoughthere were a million things
before that that should havewarned me, but it wasn't until I
filled out that form and ifanyone has filled it out, I know
you know what I'm talking about.
Has this person ever, you know,used a weapon against you?
(51:07):
Has this person everintimidated you?
Has this person ever stalkedyou?
There's all these questions andyou mark yes or no and I marked
yes to all of them and I'm likeoh, I know what abuse is.
I was abused in my childhood.
I had child services and thepolice involved.
I know what abuse is.
I wasn't abused.
(51:28):
Guess what abuse is.
I wasn't abused, guess what.
Anyone who reads my book.
You're not that far in whenyou're like gosh, darn, when is
this girl going to leave thisguy?
I mean, that's what people sayto me all the time, but they
don't get it.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
They don't get it unless they've lived it.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
But the thing is it's because we think of abuse as a
black eye or God forbid theworst of circumstances like you
have been through, victoria, andwe need to start realizing that
anything that is I mean we usethis word toxic, but anything
(52:07):
that threatens your sense ofself and your self-worth, your
if not the physical, sexual,financial, legal, and all the
(52:35):
gaslighting and the manipulation.
So don't ever.
I'm big on shame, as you guysknow, but I don't want anyone to
ever be ashamed.
You may not even know thecircumstances you're in, even
though you've been in thosecircumstances before, because
maybe even I realized late.
I gaslit myself.
(52:56):
I didn't want to believe that Iput myself in another abusive
situation.
I didn't want to tell myselfthat I was a fool.
And how could I be so stupid?
You know what?
I was human, I was open.
I wanted it to be something itwould never be.
I had hope, and that's a goodthing I now see.
But don't ever get hard onyourself about that.
(53:20):
It's okay, we all end up insituations, but we're all here
and we're all together and we'reall here for each other.
So keep joining us and if anypart of this episode resonates
with somebody that you know.
Send it to them please, becausemaybe if they listen to it they
might realize something abouttheir own circumstances and be
(53:43):
able to reach out and get helpor get out of that situation
altogether as well.
Speaker 1 (53:48):
Right.
And another thing is when I wasreading and I always say this
when I was reading Dana's booksthe first one, I couldn't put it
down and I was so just like howyou resonate with so much of it
.
And then I started readingGasping for Air is one of my top
10 favorite books I've everread in my life and so but then
(54:09):
you get choking on shame and youreally get into it and you
start going.
I get that, like I get it, andI think that a lot of people
like this beautiful high schoolgirl, if you go and literally
just take a minute, go, get herbooks and go and I'm not doing
that just to promote her andselling her book.
(54:30):
I'm telling you because if yougo and you read it and I had
this happen to me I'm going inand sitting there and I'm
reading and I'm going.
This happened to me, I get itand you know what it does to you
.
It makes you realize you're notthe only one, you're not
something that's damaged.
You're not broken, you're not.
You know, if you break abeautiful glass the most
beautiful stained glass windowscome from broken pieces you can
(54:53):
piece yourself back together andyou go and you look at these
books and you read them and youresonate, you're like I'm not
the only one, maybe it's not me,it is them, because now you're
getting to see, you know, andyou have that realization at
different parts of your age.
This beautiful girl found outin her high school years, and
that was just this week.
And then, you know, it took memuch later in life.
(55:15):
Everybody's different, but ifyou see that, maybe you realize
then that you're not alone,because you're not and you
realize, hey, this happened tosomeone else and it's not me,
and my self-worth doesn't needto be in question and I don't
need to be so afraid of my scars.
I was out the other day andsomebody looked at me, called me
a freak and I just, you know,that's how it is, and I just
(55:38):
looked at them and you know, atthe end of the day they got to
look at themselves in the mirrorevery single day and that's
fine.
You know, at Halloween, at thebest time, I walked around
telling everybody I was CaptainHook's sister, and, and people
were just, you know, and peoplewere like, why do you always
laugh?
Why do you always have a smileon your face?
Why, because I beat death morethan once, like every time I was
(55:59):
supposed to die.
I overcame it and they're stillmiserable pieces of shit.
And I'm here and I havemillions of people who listen to
us because of people like Dana.
I have a sister now in Dana whoI would move heaven and earth
for, I think, the world of her,and the minute she goes like
quiet for a couple of days, I'mlike annoying her.
You know, are you okay?
(56:20):
You know I do and she'll tellyou.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
I'm like, hey, it's your annoying buddy over here,
just making sure you're okay,because I never had that, but I
thank you for that and I lovethat.
Speaker 1 (56:29):
But I thank you for that and I love that.
So we are here.
You are not alone, like.
This girl was so shocked that Iwrote her back and she the
first thing I said is I'm sosorry it took me this long to
write you back.
It was like an hour.
And I said I was actuallyhelping somebody else and she
was like the fact you wrote mewas stunning, like, and I said
why.
You know you were just somebodyjust like me.
(56:50):
We put our pants on the sameway.
I might need a little helpbecause I got one arm down, but
we're all just the same.
You know, and think about theforce we can create together if
we unite together.
I mean how powerful and strongwe all are.
Speaker 2 (57:04):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
So I mean, you and I thinkalike.
We're, you know, great minds,hopefully, but you know great
minds hopefully, but you know.
One last thought, just topiggyback on everything you just
said, is that we all need toremember that the most beautiful
flowers grow from dirt.
That's right.
Why are you smiling?
Because, yeah, you've beenthrough some crap, you've been
(57:26):
through your dirt, you've beenthrough the storms, the worst of
it.
But why would you want tochoose misery?
Why Nobody wants to live there?
I don't know why I held on tomy victimhood for so long, but I
finally realized this sucks.
I want to be happy, I want tosmile too, and so now I am.
There's a lot of work to getthere, but we're here for you.
(57:48):
So keep tuning in, keepreaching out, and we thank
everybody and we love you all,even if we don't know.
You just know that it's okay.
We can all love each other andhelp each other along.
Speaker 1 (58:01):
Yes, we will see you soon.
Thanks everyone.
Speaker 2 (58:04):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (58:05):
Bye.
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