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When a narcissist targets you for abuse, they reserve a special kind of cruelty that no one else sees. This powerful episode pulls back the curtain on narcissistic abuse through raw, firsthand accounts that validate what countless survivors experience behind closed doors.

Dana and her co-host courageously share their personal journeys through narcissistic relationships, revealing how these master manipulators present a charming face to the world while systematically destroying their victims' sense of reality, self-worth, and safety. They discuss Dana's revealing book "Narc Narc, Who's There?" which documents through text messages, emails, and photographs the calculated manipulation narcissists employ.

The conversation explores how narcissistic abuse escalates gradually, testing boundaries until victims become accustomed to increasingly harmful behavior. "It's interesting how they see what they can get away with," one host explains. "It's like dipping your toes in the water... Every time they do something they just go, they just put their toe just over that edge to where they know it's going to poke at you a little."

Particularly moving is their discussion of the physical toll this trauma takes—from eating disorders that persist decades later to the physical pain of simply writing about past experiences. The hosts don't shy away from addressing how narcissistic parents devastate children's development, with alarming statistics showing that 38% of all US children experience at least one incident of domestic violence or abuse before age 18.

Despite the heavy subject matter, the episode offers genuine hope. Both hosts have not only survived but built fulfilling lives after narcissistic abuse. Their message to listeners still trapped in these relationships is clear: healing is possible, you deserve better, and you're not alone in this fight. As one host powerfully states, "We survived it. We are living beautiful lives now. You don't have to stay in that muck."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Good afternoon and welcome to another episode of
our series Knock, Knock.
Who's there?
Help me.
I'm gasping for air.
Dana is co-hosting with meagain today.
She has been a little under theweather, so we're wishing her
great wishes and speedy recovery.
And I'm just going to start outsaying oh my God, I've been

(00:22):
reading your book.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Well, I finished your book and I'm going to say oh my
God, too, for anybody thathasn't, because I've heard the
stories, I've seen the evidencethat you've shared with me prior
to the book's release.
But that's a big.
There was a lot of oh my Godmoments in it, because it's just
stuff that you would not.

(00:46):
I mean, I believe you because Iknow you and I trust you and I
know you wouldn't say anythingthat wasn't true.
But when you see it, I mean,and it's right in front of you
in text messages and emails andpictures oh my God, Like you,
just can't believe that somebodywould be so calculated and so

(01:07):
disgusting and so manipulativeand cruel and all the things
that these narcissists are inour lives, you know, really, in
fact are.
People don't see it though.
People don't see it becausethey save all that stuff for
that one special person, ormaybe there's a special few, and
we have been so fortunate as toexperience that multiple times

(01:28):
over in our lives.
But that is why we're here andwhy we now have the gift of
knowledge to share witheverybody.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Right, and not to mention and you've seen some of
the photos of grandpa at thetable with another woman in
front of faith and you couldtell by a woman that's not his
wife in front of hisgranddaughter on purpose, by the
way being fed.
And then there's one where Idon't know how you can

(01:55):
misconstrue it that.
Could you tell that there wasone where there was some kissing
going on?

Speaker 2 (02:01):
yeah, there was.
I'm a big body language person,you know, because I studied
communications in college, kindof went with psychology and all
that, and so nonverbal sometimessays more than verbal and I
notice verbiage.
But I also notice people, theway they sit, with the way they
touch their body positioning, ifthey're turned away, if they're

(02:21):
leaned in comfortably.
He I think when I had textedyou I had said something about
those, all of those pictures hewas way too comfortable, much
more than he should be.
If this was just somebody heknew.
That is like to me.
There are certain parts of thebody and certain ways you sit

(02:44):
with people that express anintimacy that is saved for, like
you're my best friend, you'remy sister, you're my husband or
wife, not everybody else, and hejust seems like he liked ladies
, obviously, but the fact thathe used, pointedly,

(03:06):
intentionally used, yourdaughter, who has been through
hell and back as you have,medically, physically, and to
use all that to his advantage tocreate opportunities and to
even go so far as to engage withthe professionals that were

(03:30):
medically caring for either ofyou.
I mean, the man has no bounds.
So if anyone has not pickedthis up yet, you can see right
behind her as part of the cover,which is amazing, but please
get Narc.
Narc, who's there?
I mean, it's just, it'sunbelievable, but it's there.

(03:50):
The truth is there and youcan't not believe it.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Right, and you know I heard such a great quote.
It's like why are you trying tosilence us if we're lying,
right Like.
If we're lying and cause, theymake us out to be liars and
we're crazy and we're nuts andwhatever.
But if we're lying about whoyou are and what you're doing,
why are you trying to keep usquiet?
Right, right, why.
Why are you trying to, like,keep us from speaking?

(04:16):
But now that she totallyrailroaded me but I like I was
saying her book, oh my god, likemichael will look at me and
he'll be like, hey, I'm reading,like you know he's like, but
you know, and her book, evenbefore chapter one starts, right
out the gate and it's.
I'm not even gonna give anylittle tidbit, nuggets, nothing.

(04:39):
All I'm gonna say is like whenyour mom started seeing your
stepdad, like right off the batbecause even right in the
beginning you didn't say hisname in the very first part I
was like, oh, I don't like thisbastard.
And you know I didn't like theother one prior to him.
But like I'm looking and I'mreading this and I was like,

(05:01):
okay, I know this has to be him,but I'm reading and I'm like,
oh, what a prick.
Like I'm reading this and youknow, and I'm listening, and you
know I'm listening to you andwe talk and I think about all
the stuff you've said to me andit is in such detail.
I feel like I'm sitting therelooking at a window, just trying
to break the window, to getthrough the glass, to get to you

(05:22):
, to pull you out, like that'show great she is at writing, her
writing is phenomenal and youjust literally I feel like I'm
sitting there and I cannot getthrough to help get this
beautiful little girl out ofthat environment.
Which is what I see and feelwhen I'm reading this.
And oh, I'm reading this aboutyour stepdad and I'm like what,

(05:42):
jerk?
I wasn't about to use that word, but it was just horrible,
horrible, horrible.
And your mother, you know it'sjust and I'm not anywhere near
halfway through yet.
I cannot wait to I get back tothis.
It's like my time, you know, inthere is to read and it's just
seriously.

(06:03):
You know she talks about howNARTNARC is.
You know, got all this stuffgoing on, but I put myself if
you haven't been in a situation,good for you, god bless you,
and if you have, god bless youtwice as much, because you're in
your own hell, like when peoplehave asked me when I'm speaking
in engagements.
What is it like?
I tell them.

(06:23):
It's like being an asthmatic ina room with no windows or doors
, full of chain smokers Causeyou can't breathe, like you just
can't breathe.
You are literally right.
And the way Dana does this isit literally feels like you are
right there at the moment withthis beautiful, beautiful,

(06:46):
heart-filled, gorgeous littlegirl who is wanting nothing but
love.
And that is heart-wrenching forme.
To continue to read thisbecause I love her and you know
I love her as the person she is.
I didn't know her back then,but to even go back and read
when you were little, little,little, like you were needing

(07:08):
that parental guidance, thatparental love and not the
judgment.
And then I'm reading cause herand I swear you think we were
cut at the cloth because ourstories are so much similar and
her grandmother like the cookingand all that I mean it's so
like authentic and you canalmost feel everybody getting
together for food and having agood time and just you know, you

(07:31):
are so amazing as a writer.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Well, I appreciate that, but I can't take full
credit.
I went to school for journalismand you know my personality.
I'm very direct.
Yes, I'm one of.
I'm a a very blunt.
I would be good at writing newsstories and just saying what it
is.
But this this creatingenvironments and characters and
being able to put you there hasbeen the hugest challenge for me

(07:57):
, but it's also being coached todo it and basically pushed by
my publisher and and she I thankher a million times over.
If Alexa is listening to me andnot my Amazon Echo one cause
she always thinks I'm talking toher, I'm talking to my
publisher.
You know, the hard part in thisties into a lot of the issues

(08:23):
that we've had as having beenvictims and now survivors, you
know, of narcissistic abuse orany abuse or trauma.
Is that our bodies still holdthat trauma.
So, having to go back in my mind, into my memories and like
think, okay, what did I see?
What was I wearing?

(08:44):
What was I?
You know what was the color ofthe walls?
What were the?
You know the 1950s cabinets,those white ones with those
metal handles, and you knowthose big.
You know what were they iron orporcelain.
You know all these things.
You're trying to imagine thewallpaper.
You know the flare-legged pantsyou wore, with the really long
pockets back in the 70s or 80s,if you're from that era.

(09:06):
But it's like I'm rememberingthe details, but I'm also my
body is remembering the feelings.
So my throat does close up and Ican't breathe and I get sweaty
and oftentimes, especiallywriting that book, I had often
said it broke me and I hateusing that verbiage and that
language about myself, but itdid.
Oftentimes, especially writingthat book.
I had often said it broke meand I hate using that verbiage
and that language about myself,but it did.

(09:27):
The days I would be in bed withmigraines and stomach aches
after having written a scene.
I just couldn't.
But I am grateful that why wedo what we do.
I know some people that can'tgrasp the concept of humanity

(09:48):
and doing for others think it'sjust out of vengeance or trying
to make people look bad, andit's not at all why we do what
we do.
We write our books, we shareour stories.
We come on these podcasts toshare what we have experienced,
so that other people know thatwe're there with you and we
believe you because nobodybelieved us, that we're there
with you and we believe youbecause nobody believed us and
we too at one point thought thiswas just happening in us.

(10:11):
Nobody else could possibly beexperiencing this.
Because if you almost startgaslighting yourself, doubting
yourself, like there's no way,like this can't be happening,
maybe I'm misunderstandingsomething.
Maybe it because nobody elsesees this person that way.
Nobody else sees the monsterthat I'm seeing.
They don't treat other peoplethis way.
But that's also where you startinternalizing the shame and that

(10:34):
that crazy making, thatself-doubt gets established.
And then they're more effectivewhen they're gaslighting you
and manipulating and and thisconfusion about who you are and
who they are and what yourreality even is.
No wonder they think we're nuts, because it is a lot to
negotiate.
I mean and imagine doing thatwhen you're four or five years

(10:55):
old, nevermind 40 or 50 andevery age in between.
It's a freaking mind F.
Forgive me for saying it, butevery person I've ever talked to
about narcissism that hasexperienced the severity of its
abuse.
That is the one word we can alldefinitively agree upon.
That is the first word thatdefines narcissistic abuse is

(11:16):
the mind F.
That is what it is.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
It is, it is a million percent.
And you know, you go back andyou think about, like we go back
so many times as a survivor ofabuse and they say we go back to
our attacker.
Well, I realize I didn't goback to idiot, I went back to my
parents, you know, and theywere my first yeah, you know,

(11:39):
they were my first and I go backand look and look and look and
think about all thisno-transcript, this horrific

(12:33):
person that doesn't care aboutanybody but themselves.
We get, quote, unquoteownership to all of their
mistakes, because they cannot doanything wrong, nor could they
ever genuinely apologize.
They could be on fire andthey're still not going to
apologize.
It doesn't matter, it's beneaththem and they're not going to
do it.
They think they are holier thannow and it's just.

(12:54):
Everybody owes them.
And it was like with Faith, hemade it seem like, you know, if
he wanted, if she wanted, fiveminutes with him, she owed him
because his time was worth more,you know, and that's horrific.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
You, you know that's narcissism, though Narcissists
feel entitled, they are entitledin their mind and the irony is
is that some of them actually dofeel entitled, like your father
, my stepfather.
There are those textbooknarcissists that truly do think
they are better than everyoneelse and deserve to be treated

(13:29):
as such.
They are the exception to everyrule.
But then there are some, likemy ex that, those covert
narcissists that actually are sotiny, itty bitty, insecure
inside that they just put on theair of entitlement and
arrogance, so you know, kind ofhoping to receive the same

(13:50):
reflected back towards them,because they need that, their
ego needs that.
So it's very interesting, butat the end of the day, they all
work in some similar way.
They do the same things, theysay the same things, they all
work, and that's the one thingthat anybody that has anything
to say in the field ofnarcissism and that you and I

(14:11):
have agreed on.
It's all the same.
That's why you see on socialmedia, on podcasts, everything.
It might be a differentsituation, different person,
different circumstances, butit's the same crap over and over
and over, over and over, whichfor us is a good thing, because
you and I are now older andwiser and we see this stuff well

(14:35):
before it's coming and we can'tbe fooled anymore, whereas you
know like, for me, I had theking of all narcissists that was
raising me and then I married acovert.
Because it hit me differently,sensed it, knew it wasn't right,
felt the same, couldn't be sure.
It just hit me differentlywhile I learned my lesson and I

(14:56):
don't know, they say there's, Isee, different things, there's
five different nurses, there's20 different nurses.
I don't care how many number ofnarcissists are there.
An a-hole is an a-hole.
That's what I say at the end ofthe day, and abuse is abuse.
So if something, if somebody isintentionally harming you and
the key is intention take it forwhat it is.

(15:16):
But if you want to be in thatkind of relationship and I'm
sorry, believe me, I'm sorry ifit's your mother or God forbid
your kid or whoever, it sucks, Iknow, I know too well, you know
, yeah, yeah, but it's not goodfor you, it's not good for your
mind, it's not good for yourphysical health.
Toxicity has to be cut out likea tumor.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
Have you ever listened to the Dr Laura show?

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Every now and then.
I know you have a good storyabout that.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah, I know I'm not going to tell this story, but I
listen, I listen to her everynow and again and I'm
dumbfounded because she'ssupposed to be like PhD, you
know really.
But then she's like there's nosuch thing as a narcissist.
People throw that word aroundso many times.
You know, if you're the, you'rethe child of someone you think

(16:08):
is a narcissist, you need to gomake amends because you don't
know how long they're going tobe here on the planet.
And it's like they're theparent.
And I think this way,regardless of what she says.
If they're the parent and we'rethe child, I don't care if we,
as you and I, and we are parentsourselves.
Yes, we're still their child,unfortunately, and they should
do right and come to us andthey're the ones who made this
bet and they're choosing to notmake things correct.

(16:32):
And you know, at the end of theday, like with the revolving
door of my quote-unquote father,I mean, it's just like
revolving door women, but who'sgoing to take care of them at
the end, when no one's around,right, like who's going to be
there, this man can't boil waterfor himself.
And yet you just think, oh,okay, well, I'm just going to
keep that door open and thatdoor open and let these women

(16:54):
come through.
And I mean you read these emailsthat I put in there, like from
my best friend that I knew sincepreschool and her sister.
But they had different lastnames because mom had remarried
and took the last name and thenwhen the sister was born it was
her half sister.
She took the name of her dadand he bad mouthed her and had
no idea.

(17:14):
But they grew up coming over tomy house like you know, and he
was like oh, you know, have youseen you got mail?
Yeah, it's just you know.
And then I realized I go backand think about like I used to
apologize for other people'sbehavior that would set him off
and what he would do to me.
When someone did something tohim I would get silent treatment

(17:35):
and it would be so obvious.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
I mean imagine.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
Imagine being somewhere and he would be like
tell her this, I'm standingthree feet away.
He wouldn't even look at me,talk to me nothing.
Tell her this for me.
And I'm like do you know howdumb you sound right now?
I'm standing across from you,like you're not even going to.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
I didn't even get that, but I did.
There were that brought to mindmultiple situations for me and
I'm talking not just in mychildhood, as an adult, when we
were still in contact becausesomebody I knew not even like a
friend, I think it was like afriend's husband, who happened
to be a contractor, so like Ihad nothing to do with it, it

(18:15):
wasn't part of the, but somebodyhad said something about him
that he didn't like but I waspaying the price for it.
I think it was three weeks atthat point of silent.
But I didn't get silenttreatment where he spoke around
me, passive, aggressively, thirdparty it was, and I want people
to understand, cause I know yougot this type too.

(18:35):
When I got silent treatment itwas, I mean, I well, I don't
know if you've gotten there inthe book.
There's a time or two where Iget in my mother's face Like I
am screaming every profanityjust to provoke her to just look
at me, Just look at me and seeme.
See me Acknowledge my presence.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Nothing, zombie face, no words, not even a flinch in
the eye, won't even meet my eyecontact.
So when I got silent treatmentand I'm talking from the time I
was a little, little little girl, five years old maybe.
Oh, my God, I mean to feel tomake a child.

(19:20):
If you are such a disgustingadult human being, If you are
such a disgusting adult humanbeing that can make a child feel
like they literally do notexist and that they are not even
worthy of common courtesy, of Idon't know putting a plate of
dinner for them at the table ortalking to them.
I mean weeks, weeks, weeks.

(19:44):
And they called me crazy andsensitive and overly emotional
when I would be in my room andfetal position, crying,
wondering why the hell I waseven existent, wishing as a
little girl that maybe I justdidn't live anymore.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
And we didn't ask to come onto this life.
You know people need toremember that like we were a
result of an action.
You know?

Speaker 2 (20:10):
exactly.
Well, but that's the wholepremise, and you'll get there if
you haven't gotten already.
Choking on shame and that wasthe whole thing with my mother
is that she, she, didn't wantkids and here I was.
And so she's still, to this day, and I'm 48 years old.
To this day, she will not takeaccountability for having

(20:31):
willingly participated in theact that created my existence.
And it's just like I'm here,I'm like I have a kid of my own,
like I mean, let it go.
You know, open your legs.
You made me.
Forgive me anyone if I'm here,I'm like I have a kid of my own,
like I mean, let it go, youknow, open your legs, you made
me.
Forgive me anyone if I'm beingcrude, but I mean, this is how I
feel I need to be because it'sI mean, at some point okay,

(20:54):
maybe you didn't intend for itto happen Teenage pregnancies
happen.
I, I, I get it, but gosh darn, Imean to diminish an entire
human being and steal theopportunity, especially when
there are so many people in thisworld number one who cannot
have children, that would loveany child to raise and love as

(21:19):
their own, that would love toadd to their family of
biological children or adoptedchildren.
I mean, I honestly grew up andbeing orphan Annie.
I loved that movie because Ithought, gosh, if I could even
live in an orphanage and haveall those you know non
biological sisters that we cansing and dance, and because I
was a singer and a dancer and Ijust thought what a wonderful

(21:42):
life that would be.
I could even put up with MrsHannigan, like she didn't bother
me any.
She was nothing compared towhat I know.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Right, exactly, yeah, I watched sleeping with the
enemy and I'm like that's thebest they got, like they think
this is so scary.
You know, like dun dun dun, thecans are facing the one
direction and I'm like that's a2am on a Monday for me.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
That's like exactly.
But you know what the saddestpart is when we're talking about
child abuse, because I think,and for anybody that's listening
that really doesn't buy intothe narcissism thing, just take
the narcissism out of it.
Narcissistic abuse was when anarcissist abuses you, but it's
still physical abuse, verbal,emotional, psychological, sexual
, sometimes.

(22:23):
You know, find it.
There's so many different typesof abuses and abuse is abuse
and you cannot deny that.
I don't care who's abusing you,but what people don't get and
this is statistics from.
I should have actually writtenit down, but this is our own
government putting the statisticout that 38% of all US children

(22:43):
currently have experienced atleast one incident, at least one
incident of domestic violenceor abuse before the age of 18.
And then they say more thanhalf of all US children have
experienced more than that.
That that's not okay with me atall.

(23:05):
Right, and I mean we can.
We can arguably remove somethings that are.
I mean I hate to say thatsomething isn't abuse, because
if somebody is affected and hurtby something, I mean I don't
want to be one of those peoplethat diminishes anything that's

(23:26):
not physical.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, but you're not one of those people.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
I'm not, but I want to be sensitive to somebody who
might be listening.
But aside, even if you pull outthe things that might be, you
know, that are teetering on theedge of whether they could
really be considered abuse andwhether it's just somebody being
a little too sensitive, as Ihave often been accused of being
, I feel like that number isstill way too high, because that

(23:51):
many children in as large of acountry as we are should not be
experiencing this much trauma.
And then we wonder that thedirect correlation to the
incidence of depression, theincidence of anxiety, that this
is suicide prevention awarenessmonth.
I mean, what happens whenpeople are suicidal?

(24:12):
Everyone thinks it's a mentalhealth issue.
No, it's not a mental healthissue.
I will argue that all day longand I will have doctors tell me
I'm wrong.
It is a sadness and lonelinessissue.
It is people who, honestly,have been just exiled, banished,
diminished, made to feelinsignificant, so much so that

(24:34):
they feel that they are alone,even though there might be
people in their life that carevery much about them and would
do anything to make sure theydidn't feel that way.
The people primarily responsible, namely parents, siblings,
spouses, kids, whatever peopleclose to you are making them
feel like they don't matter.
Yeah, absolutely.

(24:55):
That is not mental health.
That is a problem with the waypeople treat each other, and I
don't blame people.
I have been one of those people.
Even this year, I have had anissue where I just felt like I
just don't want to feel thishurt and this pain anymore, and
so I understand when somebodygets to that point.

(25:15):
But this isn't just, like Isaid, about narcissistic abuse
or depression or mental healthor suicide.
It all goes together and so wecan't ignore it, and so I want
people to listen more openly.
Even if you haven't experiencednarcissistic abuse or any abuse
yourself, please don'tunderestimate what somebody

(25:35):
tells you or the things thatwe're saying or the statistics,
because it's very real and it'svery prevalent in this world.
You know, even looking atromantic relationships, they say
one in four women or, I'm sorry, one in four men and one in
three women are in a toxicrelationship.

Speaker 1 (25:55):
The numbers are higher in the military by the
way, numbers are higher.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yes, and among the police forces and such, and you
unfortunately know this too welland you know that kind of goes
along with the death rates 38percent.
It's the same number as thechild abuse.
38 percent of all womenmurdered All women murdered are
murdered by their partner.
Yeah, why would any woman wantto go out on a date?

(26:21):
Oh my God.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
And when you try to be the most dangerous that is
the most dangerous.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
The two most domestic violentincidents that I had with my ex
happened after our divorce.
So, like I told my son, it wasjust a piece of paper that
separated our finances.
It's not in that relationship,because if there was a piece of
paper for that boy, I would havehad that done first.
I don't care about the finances.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
Right?
No, absolutely, and you know it.
What really got to me, dana, isit like imagine, you know, I
tell people, close your eyes andimagine being eight years old
and having your mother say Iwish I had miscarried you, I
wish that you know you were theone I miscarried, and that's
horrible.
And then you know, when Faithwas born, we were in the NICU

(27:07):
for months and months and months.
I said she wouldn't make it.
I became very close with thechaplain and she was coding
every day.
She had seizures every day.
We ended up tracheologicallydependent and they were a mile
and a half from the hospital.
Like in order to go anywherethey had to pass on the main
street and they lived off of thesame street that the hospital
was on hand to God and theydidn't come in.

(27:28):
Now, when my half-sister theydidn't meet Faith until she was
three and a half months old,when my half-sister had her baby
her first.
She didn't know how to doanything, and so my biological
mother went and stayed with herfor like a couple of weeks to
help her get acclimated, and I'mso glad that this baby was

(27:51):
perfectly healthy and hadnothing going on, and so she
stayed.
Well then, when she had and Idon't know, her kids.
When she had her second son andhe had an ear infection.
She could not take both boys tothe doctor.

(28:12):
Like she's, like I can't managemy one son, who's fine, and the
other, who has an ear infectionto my mother would drive like an
hour up there to her house andhelp her take them to the doctor
.
And I'm like I'm walking aroundwith a dislocated face and a
dislocated shoulder and a brokenfoot and I have 11 pieces of
medical equipment, from a pulseoximeter to an apnea belt, to a
tracheostomy emergency bag, to afeeding bag, to the feeding

(28:33):
pump, to the feeding I mean, andI'm carrying it all myself and
I can't get help going to thedoctor.
And it's not a freaking earinfection Like that is what I
was used to, you know, and soit's really hard and I've told
people that if you haven't beenthrough anything like we have,
then imagine your worst day,like somebody cut you off on the

(28:54):
way home and you got in a fightwith your spouse and you've got
arguments going with your lovedones, and this just goes on and
on.
Do you think your day can't getany worse?
Dana, and I could take that one.
I was gonna say one-handed, butthat's kind of a pun, but like
we could, literally we.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
I mean that's like an easy, easy day for us, like we
would just be like that's thebest you got, like that's what
you're throwing at us today,like we got a day off, like that
would be our day off you knowand that, and that's the thing
about it and that's what peopledon't get, because I know that
when we got out of ourrelationships and this is common
for anybody that comes out of aan abusive relationship is well

(29:33):
, if it was that bad, why didyou stay?
And just yesterday on a podcastand actually it was an amazing
podcast that I did with thiswoman and she did not mean it
offensively, she was genuinelyasking 25 years, how long?
I mean she's like even goodrelationships don't sometimes
last 25 years.

(29:54):
How did you stay?
And I told her because most ofthe stuff was just like any
other Tuesday.
Sometimes the stuff was muchmore dramatic, but sometimes it
wasn't as bad.
But the as bad was relativebecause as time went on, I
always explain it that it'sinteresting.

(30:16):
They see what they can get awaywith.
You know, it's like dippingyour toes in the water.
Right, it's passed out in thebeginning.
Like dipping your toes in thewater, they test you out in the
beginning and even we who havevery loose boundaries or
seemingly have none at all, Iwas definitely one of those
people for a long time.
There is a point when you feelyou know people don't understand

(30:37):
that uneasiness that you feel,whether it's a low level, like
eh, I don't know about this to ahigh level, panic and anxiety.
That is okay, it's notunhealthy.
That is your inner smokedetector going off saying
something is not right here.
But they know where that, wherethat boundary is, even if it's

(30:59):
far out there, and every timethey do something they just go,
they just put their toe justover that edge to where they
know it's going to poke at you alittle.
You're going to feel thatdisease, disease literally when
we wonder why mental healthdevelops into physical.
But they get away with itbecause it's not a deal breaker.

(31:22):
But you know, it's like I tellpeople how do you get from point
A to point B?
Because you know one year, youknow 10 years ago you weighed
this much and how did you gain25 pounds in the last five or 10
years?
It's the same thing with theabuse, it's just a little more,
a little more, a little worseevery time, putting an extra toe
over the edge.

(31:42):
This time Maybe I'm going tostep totally over the edge and
we're going to have a real big,dramatic, domestic, violent
event today, and then we'regoing to pull back a little so
that it doesn't seem so bad whenI do this to you and swing
something at your head or throwsomething across the room or
drag your you know overlymedicated body into the bathroom
and leave you there andwhatever.
Hopefully you won't wake up.

(32:04):
I mean, it sounds dramatic topeople but to us it's a level of
severity and if we can keep iton low level stuff, that's,
that's a good day for us and weget used to it, right.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
You get used to hearing every day like you are
not my type.
You know, people feel bad thatI'm with you, You're ugly,
You're hideous, Nobody wouldever want you.
You know, it's like when youfind that happiness and you have
that person in your life andthey make you so happy and they
tell you how beautiful you areand that they love you, and you
hear it all the time.
You believe them.
Well, it's the same thing,because these are the most

(32:38):
charismatic people who arecharming, and they will find
that one part of you that theyknow is missing and they placate
on it Like that is okay, Likemine was, I wanted children and
I wanted that family and I hadlost a child and so it was oh,
you want children.
Well, you know, I've alwayswanted children and and I really

(33:01):
, you know, because I've beentraveling so much with the
military and this and that andthe other and I was like, but I
don't even think you're cute,like you know, and it was.
Oh, you know, you can maybe fallin love with them.
Later.
I told him I wasn't in lovewith him and it was well, you're
, you know, still hung up onyour ex, who's now my husband,
and it's just, you know.
You hear it every single dayand you get to the point where

(33:24):
you know it's.
It's almost like studying for atest, where you know the
material and you know what'scoming.
Like you know what tests?
Oh, absolutely.
And you sit there and it's youknow, and people don't don't get
it, because we literally sitthere and go why didn't I have
that food on the table twominutes earlier?
But it doesn't matter, becausetwo minutes earlier it might've

(33:44):
been not cooked enough, and thenyou're going to get it anyway.
So it doesn't matter if thehouse is immaculate.
You look a certain way, you'redoing everything to the book and
you know what.
Someone could cut them off onthe way home.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Someone, could you know get mad at him at work.

Speaker 1 (33:59):
It doesn't matter, we are his fighting playground.
He's gonna come back and takeit out on us because that's what
he does and that's what we'reaccustomed to and that's just
what we get used to.
And then if we try to leave andwe don't have that support, I
mean they, they are very I hateto say good, because I don't
ever want to give them theyreally are, though, but they are
.

(34:19):
They take away our friends, theytake away our socialization.
They take away oursocialization.
They take away where we go.
Like if I wanted to go get myhair done, I had to call from
the salon so that he could seeon caller ID that I was there
and I had to bring a receipthome.
And he knew how long it wouldtake me to get from point A to
point B and, like I worked agood hour plus from home,

(34:40):
without traffic, and my favoriteday of the week was Monday
because I wasn't going to bewith him and it was I had to
make certain calls at certainpoints on the way back because
he would be getting rid of hiswomen that were in the house.
And it doesn't matter, there'sno excuse why you're not doing
what you're supposed to do, likeit is that meticulous.
And then you go back and youwatch these things and you're

(35:02):
like, oh, you know.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
And then you go back and you watch these things and
you're like oh you know, justlike the movie enough with you
watch it.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
Yes, yes, you sit there and watch it and you're
just like looking and you'regoing.
That's like a blessing for us,like we look at that and it's
you know.
But then I won't reveal theguest because she told me this
off air.
She's a very famous lady,wonderful, wonderful lady.
I just thought the world of herand she said to me you know, I
survived a domestic violencesituation and I've not been very

(35:31):
public about it, but I willtell you that, like being in the
limelight of the Hollywood ism,you have to maintain a certain
appearance.
You have to maintain your, yourphysicality.
You have to maintain that youcan't even go out to the mailbox
without your makeup on and yourface on and your hair done.
And you know, and she was likeit costs a ridiculous amount of
money and you have all thesepeople and you know you have to
always be dressed and ready togo.
And she was like it's a facadeand it's the same kind of thing,

(35:54):
like you are expected to bethis way and you have to
maintain this composure and youhave to go out there and you
have to like you know, oh,you're three pounds too heavy.
I'm gonna go on ozempic, youknow, and it's like yes, are you
kidding?
And it's the same thing as beingstill an abusive situation
because there's this protocolthat has to be followed, that

(36:15):
you have to be a certain way oryou get ridiculed.
And a lot of people don't seethat.
But then they're so quick tosay, oh, I saw so, and so she
looked horrible, and it's oh,she's got to be going through
something.
No, she just didn't spend sixhours in a chair putting on her
face and her hair and her youknow extensions.
But you know, in today's world,day to day, there's so many

(36:35):
ways to not even look like whowe are.
You can do, you know, hairextensions and eye extensions
and eye color, contacts and andtattooing makeup, and you know
all the filters.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Look at the filters that are out there and like,
even last week, my, my grandma,called me and she said she saw
something on Facebook orwhatever.
She's like, oh, I saw you on apodcast and you dyed your hair
black.
I'm like, no, actually it's alot lighter.
And because I've been out inthe summer sun and you know that
it's perception, I'm like, no,actually it's a lot lighter.
And cause I've been out in thesummer sun and you know, but
it's perception, I'm like it'sjust lighting and it's all

(37:07):
makeup and bull.
I said it's bull crap, it's allbull crap.
Yeah, yeah.
But like I told you, I mean, ifI didn't do this, like
especially today, I'd look likethe girl crawling out of the TV
in the ring, and nobody wants tothat I know, you say that all
the time.
But see, here's an interestingthing.

(37:28):
You know, because you commentedon how you know your looks were
were ridiculed and oh, mystepfather was awful at that.
He, I, I, I've been for thelast year.
I'm actually I am going to givemyself a pat on the back
because in the last year I haveworked so hard and I've kind of
kept this under wraps to workout an eating disorder at 48

(37:50):
years old that I have had sinceI was 12 years old and I have
gained 10 pounds in the lastyear and you know I worried that
my husband wouldn't find meattractive and my clothes
weren't fitting and I could seelike my face filling out and I
have a little bit of a stomachnow and it I'm so glad for
people that make me feel goodabout who I am on the inside,

(38:13):
like they think I'm funny, theythink I'm smart, they like my
personality, because this focuswith narcissists on the looks.
But here's where it gotinteresting.
My stepfather, typicalnarcissist, criticized my looks.
I mean, I'm six years old,eating a peanut butter and jelly
and he's telling me I'm goingto be fat like a middle-aged
woman.
I remember being 20 years oldin college and he told me my

(38:35):
hips were spreading and I'mgoing to look like my grandma
soon.
He was just so freakingobnoxious my whole life.
It was no wonder I had aneating disorder, so freaking
obnoxious my whole life.
It was no wonder I had aneating disorder.
But when I married my ex so herewas the irony the only thing he
would ever tell me, the onlycompliment that man would ever
give me, and it was 20 times aday oh, you're so beautiful,

(38:57):
you're so pretty.
He would text me hey beautiful,hey beautiful, hey big.
You know it was always thebeautiful thing.
And I always worried becauseI'm like, well, not always going
to look like this.
I mean, I, you want to bepretty to the person you're with
, you want to feel attractive.
It makes you feel good aboutyourself.
But I was like, what happenswhen I'm not?
What happens when I'm 70 or 80or 90 and my skin starts

(39:20):
wrinkling and my hair startsfalling out or God forbid I get
cancer and lose all my freakinghair?
What then?
What happens when I end up in awheelchair and I gain 50 pounds
because I can't run five milesa day like I like to do?
What happens then?
Is he still going to love me?
Is he still going to like me?
And I would express this to himbecause I think that's a

(39:42):
reasonable thing that you wantto know.
You want the reassurance thatthis person actually does love
you, not just for the facade andwhat you look like.
And what did he do before wewere married After?
Till the end, till the bitterend, cheated on me constantly,
and he wasn't even shy about it.

(40:02):
He would tell me he would comehome and tell me oh, I was just
at this bar with my friend andthis girl put her hand down my
pants and she was doing this tome and I was making out with
this one for three hours and youknow, I went and F this one and
it's and and he had told me afew times, it's because he
wanted to make sure I knew hehad options, that I needed to

(40:27):
know what I had.
And he even would tell mesometimes that maybe he would
say, well, next time I'm goingto marry a fat girl, a fat ugly
chick, because then she'll behappy with me, she'll know what
she has, she'll treat me likethe king that I deserve to be
treated like.
And to take somebody thatyou're calling beautiful and

(40:48):
that you're saying, oh, you'rebeautiful, you're really pumping
this person up, as he was withme, and then crippling me.
What does that say?
That means, okay, my physicalappearance isn't enough, so then
?
So then, that's validatingexactly what my worry was, and
so I was trying so hard.
Still, I mean, he would tell meafter I, after I had our son.

(41:11):
I mean, when you have a newbornbaby, you look like a snot rag
for the first few months, if notlonger.
You know you're just trying toget through the day nap when you
can, whatever.
And he'd be like he'd come homefrom work and say my God, you
know what time I'm come homefrom work.
Why can't you get your makeupand hair done and at least put
clothes?
on that are and I, and evenafter I had another.

(41:34):
I had multiple miscarriageswith him.
But even after I had anothermiscarriage after multiple, why
can't you just have a baby likeevery other woman in this world?
And just diminishing everysense of me and I mean any
little tiny insecurity, theytake it and just I mean not just

(41:55):
stick the dagger in, they twistit and twist it.
I just told somebody recentlyit's like if somebody throws you
, like if you're hanging by arope off a ledge, hanging on for
dear life, and they're lookingyou in the eyes, saying I love
you, and cutting that rope andletting you fall.
That's what it feels like to bewith a narcissist, whether it's

(42:16):
your mother, your husband, yourwhoever.
It's awful, it's excruciatingpain.
The betrayal and I think that'swhat it is is the betrayal
trauma that you're healing fromwhen you're going through that.
But you're also dealing withthe physical things going on
inside your body, because themental always manifests into
physical.
I mean, we cannot deny that.

(42:37):
But it's a lot, it's really alot, and it just pains me that
there are still people out there.
You know, as we said in thebeginning, I get challenged all
the time on different socialmedia.
Oh, I don't buy into thisnarcissism thing, okay.
Well, the reality is we cangive you a list of a million
things that narcissistic traits.
At the end of the day, it's twothings.

(42:58):
They have no empathy.
They could give a flying Fabout you or anyone else.
They are out for number one andthat's them.
Not even their own childrencome ahead of them.
And two, no remorse whatsoever.
They absolutely 100% feeljustified and validated in doing
what they're doing and theyknow exactly what they're doing.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
Right.
I would add one more.
I would say they haveabsolutely no respect for
boundaries.
Yeah, yeah, cause I learnedthat a lot with faith.
Very true, yeah, I would.
I would definitely say that Imean who?
Who brings oh, I'm going togrow grab a bite to eat with the
girls.
And then there's a woman thatshows up.
That's why I always drove,always, and I mean always, I've
always been the one that drives,because I'll get up and leave,

(43:40):
like I'm not here for this, youknow, I'm just not, I'm not
going to be here for this, it's.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
And then to see like him being all attentive to a
toddler, like a toddler, and noteven say, or a toddler of a
woman he's trying to screw, bythe way, who is also your doctor
?

Speaker 1 (43:58):
She was my therapist your therapist.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
My hand therapist, my physical therapist, yes, but
still and then just likeignoring, like he didn't even
try, with his own grandchild no,nothing to do with it who is a
most beautiful, precious gift tothis world.
But I mean, I don't care if shewas like the child of Satan.
That's his grandchild, you know?

Speaker 1 (44:19):
Oh my gosh, his grandchild you know, and this
particular one, this particularwoman, was, at least, maybe give
or take a couple of years, atleast 10 years younger than me.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
That sounds like my grandfather, my grandma's
husband.
Oh my gosh.
I only met him literally ahandful of times in my life, but
the stories, but yeah, he wasalways he.
Often in my adult life I wouldhear that he was with some woman
or or engaging with some womanintimately that had children
younger than my son, and thatshe was much younger, half my

(44:54):
age sometimes, and I was like, Imean, some of them were
underage and I'm like you're a60, 70 year old man, Like, and
I'm like you're a 60, 70 yearold man, Like, oh, and what do
these women want with that?

Speaker 1 (45:04):
Thank, you money.
Like I can't imagine.
Like one thing that really setsus out is that, like you and I
can never understand the mindsetof these people, because we're
not them, we're not like that,thank God, yeah, thank God.
So like I would sit there andlook at these two and it would
be like like they would rub itin my face like teenage kids

(45:26):
that weren't allowed to date.
And I looked at them and I'mlooking at her and I'm like what
do you see?
I mean, let's just give anumber because hypothetically
she was 34, 35, around and justaround, and he's in his
seventies and like you, you lookand it's like and Faye's is a
riot, she's freaking hysterical.

(45:47):
You can't take this kidanywhere without your face
hurting, because when they wouldshow up, she'd be like I need a
senior citizen menu and a kid'smenu and two bibs, because
they're both at the age to drooland that's what she would say
it's hilarious.
And that's what she would sayit's hilarious, but like you sit
there and you look and you'rejust like that's disgusting.

(46:08):
I mean, that is likegenerational, like you know, and
and I mean, like I have daddyissues.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
I'm going to admit my husband now is 11 years older
than me and I mean I'm sorry, he, he, he.
I look at him and I mean I lovethe gray hair in his chest and
all that.
It's just hot stuff to me.
I love the belly.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
What's the age difference in you two?

Speaker 2 (46:33):
11 years.
So it's not awful, I know it'snot awful, especially when
you're older it's not that bigof a difference.
But I do know people who haveleft their wives, left their
children, to be with somebodysignificantly, much more than 11
years difference, significantlyyounger.
And I mean I remember there wasone specific time I knew the

(46:56):
couple very well and he ran offwith their kid's nanny who was
much, much, much younger and Ithink she was just 18 or 19.
And he's like I don'tunderstand why anybody has an
issue with me being happy.
And I remember looking at himand I said, look, I don't agree
with what you're doing.

(47:17):
But I said you need to startthinking with something other
than the one body part.
Because I said, let's be real.
I said, just double her age.
I said was she 18?
Now, when she is 36 and 18years, you're going to be what?
Like I mean, do you think shewants to be that age?
And like changing your diaperand and wiping your the crap off

(47:41):
your ass.
I mean I don't mean that rudely.
When you love somebody and I amnot judging and I'm going to say
this very clearly I believethat if you love somebody, you
love somebody and the agedoesn't matter.
And are there couples that theycould be 60 years apart?
I don't care.
If you truly love each other,then that's great, but

(48:04):
unfortunately, in this world Idon't trust that.
That's usually the case whenit's a very young woman who is
being given a Mercedesconvertible to drive around in
and a great big house by the manthat was willing to leave his
wife and kids, you know, andeverything he has to get a
little young stuff andeverything he has to get a
little young stuff.

(48:25):
I don't know.
I don't know what these men arethinking, but they're thinking
in the moment and they'rethinking it looks good on their
arm and it looks good on socialmedia and and they're going with
it.
But again, they, they honestly,they have no capacity to think
outside themselves.
It's about what they're gettingand that's all that matters.
But I saw that with your dadand I think the most appalling

(48:48):
thing with all I mean because,unfortunately, maybe it's
because I've been surrounded byinfidelity my whole life and
experienced it, and you know,yeah, the one thing in your book
that stood out to me was whenyou are, you had that special
weekend away with Faith and shewas having.

(49:09):
It was what the night before asurgery, I believe.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
We were going away for the weekend, coming back
late Sunday night.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
And the surgery was like Tuesday.
Right and he just wanted to comealong and then suddenly this
woman shows up and then she hasher kid and he kept trying to
pawn this kid off on you withfaith and I mean, and there's
pictures, and there's pictures,but I just don't comprehend the

(49:36):
last thing I would ever want todo.
Number one even if faith hadbeen born healthy and required
no surgeries and what have you?
You have a young child.
They have a lot of energy, theyrequire a lot of supervision
and attention and, aftereverything you've been through,
lord give you a damn break, likehe should have been.

(49:59):
If he wanted to really be therewith you, he should have been
tending to you and spending timewith the two of you, playing
games, going out to eat,whatever, being with the two of
you, his daughter and his onegranddaughter.
Instead, he has a woman andhe's trying to pawn off her.
Very young.
What was it?
A toddler, three years old orsomething, not even.

(50:19):
No, she was like two, two, atoddler who requires that much
more energy and attention andtime onto you to take care of so
he can go.
I mean, he didn't say it, butobviously he was trying to get
some with this woman who wasn'this wife, that was not even
invited and basically likeintervened on this whole, just

(50:41):
totally disrupted this specialplan trip you had with your
daughter.
It was just that just reallyaffected me.
I mean, there was so much moreappalling stuff in the book but
I think I was like, oh yeah, youknow, but that was just like my
God, you will go to no end tomake sure, forgive me for being
a book vulgar, but to stick yourdick in this woman, thank you,

(51:04):
like you can't wait till herlunch hour on wednesday and go
pick her up for lunch and takeher to one of those motels where
they charge you by the halfhour, jesus christ oh, remember,
but he even got his wife tohelp build the toddler's
christmas presents.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
Oh my god, that's right, but you know what was
horrible and I didn't put it inthe book because you know, yes,
a lot of it is humiliating forboth of us, but if it helps
somebody, that it makes adifference.
But I didn't want to put somuch of like my surgical history
in there.
But I have a shoulderreplacement.
Like my left shoulder has beencompletely replaced, and so I

(51:42):
was always chesty and I had toget a breast reduction and I did
not want to put that in therebecause it seemed a little
personal.
But so I had to go get a breastreduction and my dad sits there
and says to me why are yougoing to do this?
Men want a redheaded woman withbig boobs and there are certain
words I will not say, and hedidn't call them boobs and I was

(52:02):
like listen, I got it.
There are certain words I willnot say and he didn't call them
boobs and I was like listen, Igot it.
It is wildly inappropriate foryou to have this conversation
with me like I, I don't want tohear it.
So he's like what size are yougoing down to?
Okay, again, not having thisconversation with you like this
is disgusting and I'm not havingthis conversation with you.
Yeah, and he, he was like butyou know, if you're gonna be all
scarred up, at least have wheresomebody has stuff to play with

(52:24):
.
And I was like, if I had my wayI'd be like a surfboard flat.
Like you know, there is not aman alive that after everything
I went through, that I want tocarry boobs around, for you know
.
And I was like because I can'thave any more kids and faith
can't be breastfed.
So guess what?
Take them, I give me.
You know, I would love to walkaround without a bra, thank you.

(52:46):
And so I said I'm not havingthis conversation with you.
Well, after I had the surgeryand I came home and was taking
care of faith and everythingelse, a few weeks later he was
like so how small did you go?
And I was like I am not, forthe love of God, I'm not having

(53:08):
this conversation with you.
And I called my best friend,who had not passed away yet,
obviously, and she goes.
Have you ever thought thatmaybe he had thoughts of you
intimately?
I was like I hate you.
Like why would you?
Even?
Never in my life did I ever,ever think about that?
And she was like but whatparent in their right frame of
mind or not right frame of mindwould say to their kid what size
are your breasts, you know, andwhat?

Speaker 2 (53:30):
are the scars like?
And you know you're like.
This is so uncomfortable.
Why would you?
I know, but it's not that faroff base, because that's how
some of these people are.
It is awful.
I know, I know, I know.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Right, I was like I don't know, but they are so, but
now I don't want to look at it.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
It's interesting too, because a lot of the times I
mean you know, I saw, eventhough you were kind enough to
cover faces and stuff, I meanyou could get enough of a
glimpse of him and I mean therewas nothing that I would.
You know, he would have gonenuts for you.
Well, he wouldn't have gottenvery far.
20-year-old Dana maybe wouldhave gone nuts for you, Well, he

(54:07):
wouldn't have gotten very far.
20-year-old Dana maybe wouldhave been like, oh you know, and
been naive, but this Dana, thisnew Dana, doesn't.
No, it would have been thesecond his mouth opened to say
hello, I would have just stuffedit with a dildo or something.
But it's interesting howphysically focused they are when
they are not very much to lookat and see, he thought he was

(54:28):
God's gift to women.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
That's what baffles me.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
Yet you know like I go back to, like my ex always
saying how beautiful.
And even my stepdad, one timein my life he actually said
something nice to me and guesswhat it was?
He told me I looked pretty thatday.
It was at a Christmas.
I was like, oh, and he evenwanted to take my picture, which
you know felt a little off.

(54:56):
But yeah, yeah, but thank God Iwas never sexually, there was
never any of that.
I thank God for that every day.
But they, I don't know.
It's just weird to me becauseeven when I look back, like my,
my stepdad and my mom were veryfar apart in age.
I will probably similar to meand my husband somewhere around
that 11 year mark, but when Ilooked at him, like on their
wedding day, he was what?
33, 34, 35, something like that, and I mean she looked like a

(55:19):
baby.
My mother, she was so beautifulbut she looked like a baby.
And I'm looking at them like I.
I mean it's so judgmental andsuperficial, but his personality
, you know, I mean you startedreading the book it's lacking,
just like I mean no disrespect,but your father, after seeing
your father's text messages andstuff, his personality doesn't

(55:44):
do very much to help him hischaracter or integrity no, you
could be a physically gorgeousperson and have a really crappy
real dick and you're ugly.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
You're so unattractive to me.
But then you have someone whotreats you like you deserve to
be treated and they love you forwho you are.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
They, to me, become one seriously good looking
individual because 100, becauseit's how they make you feel and
it's, it's the beauty of theirsoul.
But that's, I think that'swhere I'm going with this is,
you have these people thatphysically just are they're not
anything that I would look attwice and their personalities

(56:22):
suck ass.
And you know, I'm sorry that'snot very eloquent and I'm a
writer, but the personalitiessuck ass.
We're unfiltered here, we'reunfiltered.
That's how I normally talk.
When I write, I'm much morethoughtful about my verbiage,
but yet people are attracted tothem.
And you know, and the thing iswe talk about, like you know,
women going after them for moneyand whatever.

(56:43):
And you know, and the thing iswe talk about, like you know,
women going after them for moneyand whatever.
And you know, my mother wouldprobably die if she heard me say
this, but I mean, it'sdefinitely apparent to me when I
look back at my childhood.
You know she wanted a life, alifestyle that she didn't think
she could attain on her own, andshe said as much to me when we
had a conversation one of thethree times we went no contact
that she honestly felt thatwithout him and the resources

(57:07):
and when we say resources wemean his lying and fraudulent
behavior to attain things inways that are not morally
correct, because I swear to God,he crushed babies underfoot if
it meant him getting a newCorvette or something, I swear
to God.
But she wanted the life andthat was ultimately what ended

(57:31):
our relationship altogether,Because I begged, I pleaded.
You know, even if it's strained,even if you don't understand me
, even if we disagree on so manythings.
I would like a mother towhatever extent I can have a
mother, even if we disagree onso many things.
I would like a mother towhatever extent I can have a
mother.
And she said I cannot be yourmother and his wife at the same
time because he didn't want thathe had.
You know, narcissists want youall to themselves.

(57:53):
But it was okay for her to be amother to my brother because
that was their biological child.
I was not biologically his,which would have been fine if I
would have played the role theyhad decided that I should play
in the family facade.
But I didn't, because even as asmall child which the publisher
challenged me on, but I said no, I was that tenacious little

(58:16):
thing that called crap out.
I was kind of like your faith.
That's why I think I adore herso much.
She just says what it is and Isaw stuff and I called it is.
And I saw stuff and I called itout.
And that's what they didn'tlike, because nurses do not
going back to how we started,they do not like when somebody
sees them for who they reallyare.
And if they cannot control youand manipulate you and shut you

(58:38):
up, then, boy, are you going topay the price, and for too often
, the ultimate price is you knowyou.
You know how that can go andit's very sad, but we're so glad
that you're here and that faithis here, and that I mean I.
I truly believe that anybodywho can survive a narcissistic
relationship that gets thatviolent, you know when, when

(59:01):
somebody actually cares solittle about you that they, they
don't even have respect foryour life and, in your
circumstances, your unborn baby,that how they are able to walk
around on this earth free isbeyond me.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
Yeah, you know, and like, even when my mother would
say to faith, you know, if shedied on the OR table, ok, yeah,
I mean no person, no man, no, no, anyone is ever going to come
between faith, and I don't carewho they are, who they think
they're going to be, it's notgoing to happen.

(59:38):
Like you know, if somebody doesanything that that hurts faith,
I like she just sits back andshe's like this is going to be
good.
You know, like she's had, she'shad nurses that we fired when
we were in that situation andthen we had nurses that wouldn't
even look at the chart andwe're like oh, here we're going
to give you morphine and it saysdon't give her morphine because

(01:00:00):
she didn't want it.
You know she doesn't want anykind of narcotic.
She's like me, she doesn't wantany pain meds.
So she was like I don't wantanything and she's like I would
like something to drink.
I want something to eat.
And you know, oh, the kitchen'sclosed, whatever, go fetch a
pudding, I don't care, go dosomething.
And so you know, when this it'slike I'm the tigering mom, I'll
sit there and be quiet.

(01:00:20):
Come at me, come get me.
That's fine, you cross thatline and you come at faith.
God help you.
Like that is just that's it.
I mean glove off, you know.
And she'll laugh.
She'll say mommy says she can'tleave fingerprints, I can't
leave fingerprints, I don't havea hand, you know.
So you know it's, it's kind ofa funny kind of thing, but don't

(01:00:41):
mess with my kid.
And you know she's always like,you know, even when she was
little.
She's like you're nothing likethem.
And and I said I've given youeverything I ever needed and
wanted from them and neverreceived.
And she was like you're justlike your grant, you are with
your grandparents.
And I said, yes, I wanted youto have that Like I.
I could not have my childspending and I say this all the

(01:01:03):
time, I don't want her spendingher adulthood recovering from
her childhood, you know.
And she was hilarious.
She even said one time you know,why do you think he's good
looking?
You know, she asked that shewas like why do you think he's
good looking?
Then they're like he's a goodlooking man.
And she's like are you HelenKeller's brother?
That's what she asked.

(01:01:25):
She was like you know, oh, mygoodness.
You know, she's like I don'tunderstand.
And she's like I don't thinkhe's good looking.
And they're like oh, he's agood looking man.
And then, you know, she remindsme of like Sophia from the
Golden Girls, you know she was.
And she's like I don't thinkshe gets out much mom.
And I'm like but it is, they'renot.
You know, they're notattractive.

(01:01:47):
And and it's just mind-blowingto me how like I would watch
these women fall over him andyou just want to look at him and
be like yeah, I don't get it.
What is wrong with you?
And the first real interactionwas he had all these beautiful
boats and yachts and stuff andhe, he had an interior designer

(01:02:08):
who I won't say her name, it was, she was appropriately named.
I'll just say that I'll turn itoff recording what her name was
.
But you know, she would come inand wear like black thongs and
white debris pants and she'd getstains on them and she'd be
like, oh look, I got somethinghere and I'm like it's called
chlamydia, and she would justlike he'd be like you need to

(01:02:29):
apologize, and I would say, okay, you're sorry.
He's like that's not funny, andshe would like bear down in
front of him and I'm sorry, thatwas good and you know, and it's
like I would always say, and Iwould look, and you know, she
would come up wearing thescattless little you know, next
to nothing, and I would be likeshe looks like a bucket of

(01:02:50):
chicken, like there's herbreasts, there's her thighs,
there's her legs, you know,there is the whole thing.
But somebody needs to go fry it, like you know.
And I would tell her she'dreach across and like, put her
hand on his chest.
And none of her, none of herpictures are in the book.
This was decades before.
And she would be like, oh,let's go get something to eat.

(01:03:10):
And she would try to sit besidehim.
And I walked over and pickedher by the back of the collar
and said, let's go.
You're going to the other sideof the table.
Like you're not.
No, I came here to have dinnerwith him.
He didn't invite, invite you.
I'd even walk up to the door.
You know where Faith gets it andit says no pets allowed.
I'm like, how's she getting it?
Like you know, I mean, this isjust stuff, I would say, and

(01:03:31):
she's like let's share a dessert.
And I'm like let's get a, let'sget a doggy bag to go so she
can actually have some food, youknow, and she would just like
lean over.
And it was appalling and I toldher.
Her I said, if you touch himagain, you're going under the
boat, like I'm going to show youhow to get clean.
And she just had no remorse.
I'm like, if you're like thiswhen I'm here, what are you like

(01:03:53):
when I'm not?
Can you imagine?

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
And I would be like, why does it smell like tuna?
And I'm like, oh, she's here,oh, I had no filter and it was
just right, you know.
And and I and he's like, well,she wants to stay and watch a
movie.
And I said I don't like horrormovies, I don't want to see
Freddy Krueger, you know likeit's just.

Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
It's so sad to me, though.
You know, when I think, I thinkabout women like that and and
you know I was I was the peoplepleasing codependent.
I mean, how the hell did I endup in a 25 year relationship
with a narcissist exactly forthat reason?
But looking at other women whofall for this crap, it makes me
sad.
I mean even even my own mother.

(01:04:35):
You know.
I saw after she had my brother.
You know the biological childshe had with her husband.
I mean she did it back then.
It was the Jane Fonda video.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
Yeah, Everybody had yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
All that, the Suzanne Summers, the thigh master.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
I'm like making the motion.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
That's why she had to squeeze and you were bobbing
and getting your abs and shakeweight.
Yeah, that's the thing, thestepper she.
She had all of this and she wasdoing these videos and she was
like desperately trying like shewould come in my closet and
like try to fit in this.
Cause I was getting to be ateenager.

(01:05:15):
I was like almost 14 when mylike just under 14, when my
brother was born.
But it's like she was trying toget back into the clothes that
we used to share.
You know cause we would buyclothes that it was for both of
us, cause we were both the samesize, and then she wasn't
anymore, Cause she was a motheragain and her body went to crap
and she never recovered from it.
But watching her and like Ididn't realize it back then, but

(01:05:38):
like I never saw her eat veryrarely, not when we went to
grandma's holidays.
Sometimes she'd make a plate,but at home, I mean she didn't
make anything for us half thetime but she never ate.
And looking back, I'm like God.
So he wasn't just doing it tome.
I mean he was giving my mothera complex about her appearance.

(01:06:00):
I just wasn't hearing or reallyrecognizing what I was seeing
because I was so busy strugglingto survive on my own.
But yeah, they're very physicaland it's sad to see that so
many women fall for it.
Whether they call you beautifulor they diminish your
appearance, no matter what youlook like, it's all crap and

(01:06:20):
they really need to startlooking at themselves.
But again, a narcissist isnever going to acknowledge
anything that could be perceivedas any flaw, deficiency,
weakness.
Their ego cannot withstand that, so they think they're great.
I wish I had that kind ofself-esteem.
Wouldn't mind borrowing it fora minute.
But I'm okay with who I am andthank God that you and I both

(01:06:44):
survived what we did, that wehave raised children very much
opposite of how our parentsraised us, and that they know
that their parents love us orlove them, and that they're
stable.
And we can't.
We just have to stopperpetuating this cycle and I
just appeal to anybody who'slistening to this that if you

(01:07:04):
see any of this in your life,don't ignore it, you know, don't
think it's just a situation oroh, like my mother used to say,
oh, that's just how he is.
Well, when he's abusive, or he'san a-hole and he is causing a
six-year-old child to startdeveloping an eating disorder,
when he is causing you to haveno self-esteem and diminishing

(01:07:25):
your mental or physical capacityto take care of yourself or
think that you can have a life.
I mean, rethink it.
Take your power back, please,please, please, because we
survived it.
We are living beautiful livesnow.
You don't have to stay in thatmuck.
It can be better.
You might have souvenirs, likewe do, whether they're physical

(01:07:47):
or mental or both most oftenboth but it's okay.
It's part of who you are nowand you can still live a
beautiful life.

Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
I'm so glad you said that because you know on the
next show we need to talk abouthow to go from where they are,
if they're in it currently, tohow to get out and find
themselves again and get back towho they are.
But even better.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
I love that because there's a lot there and there's
a lot that people can do,because I know that you want it
out.
I mean you get to a point whereyou wake up but you can't just
walk out.
People think it's that easy andit's not.
You need to out.
I mean you get to a point whereyou wake up but you can't just
walk out.
People think it's that easy andit's not.
You need to plan, you need tobe prepared and especially when
there's kids involved you know Ialso had animal things involved

(01:08:35):
and there's a lot to it andthen there's a lot to finding
yourself again and it's anendless.
I mean we both still seekassistance to help us with
whatever issues still come up,because there's always some
remnants there.
You can get better, you improve.
Healing always continues andwe're both in good places, but

(01:08:57):
it never ends and I don't wantanyone to think that there's
ever an end or a sense ofperfection.
Eventually, but it gets better.
It's always going of perfectioneventually, but it gets always
going to be there, but it getsbetter.
Exactly, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:09:08):
And lean on those people who get it Like I love
this woman and I tell her allthe time I'm like I don't care,
if you want to yell, scream, cry, vent, you can have my shoulder
, it's titanium, it's waterproof.
I mean, I give her my one hand,you know, like I don't care if
she's having a bad day.
You know, we all need someone tovent, and who gets it, who
understands it?
And then I'll be like whyhaven't I heard what's going on?

(01:09:29):
What's wrong with you, you know, and it's I'm that annoying
nagging person that I'm like.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
I want to know how you're doing how you're feeling,
but that's not annoying becauseyou know what it's when it.
No, because no, and I'm notsaying annoying because you
think you're annoying, but whatyou are I am feeling, what you

(01:09:53):
think is annoying, is love to me, because when I go quiet and I
know I am speaking for a lot ofpeople out there that are
listening that can relate tothis when I go quiet, there is
something haunting me, there issomething going wrong, there is
something wrong and and you knowthe second book as you know, I
have had a lot.

(01:10:14):
I didn't even know that Isuppressed memories, because my
memory is actually very, verysharp Many people have commented
on that, it's almost too sharpbut I didn't know that I could
suppress memories and memorieswere still resurfacing even
after the book was finalized andI have gone through a lot with

(01:10:35):
it and there are still moments.
But I am not going to be hardon myself and I want people to
hear this, even though we'lltalk about it more.
Do not be hard on yourself.
But if you have somebody who isasking who you are, and I love
that because that means you careand I know I can count on you
and I'm not going to reach outto you because I'm a big girl
and I got to do it on my own,because that's just who I am.

(01:10:55):
I know we're all going to rollour eyes.
I roll my eyes at myself halfthe time, but thank you for the
persistence, because too manytimes people give up and too
many times when people give upand the phone stops ringing and
the phone stops buzzing becauseeverybody just assumes you're
fine and assumes you're busy,that's when bad stuff happens,

(01:11:17):
that's when we start going downthe rabbit hole and that's when
we start thinking things andsome people act on it, and I
never want that to happen.
So I don't care.
If you think you're beingannoying, I love you.
But if you're listening andyou're an annoying person like
that, and that's fine, beannoying, Persist.
If you haven't heard fromsomebody in a while, you know
what it takes two seconds Justsay hey, how are you doing?

(01:11:38):
Haven't heard from you in awhile.
I was thinking about no idea.
You literally might be saving alife and I know that sounds
dramatic but it's not and that'sthe end of my PA and I do love
you and thank you for beingannoying and you're not annoying
.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
Thank you for listening to this episode.
Our next one is going to helpyou realize that you can be
annoying.
We could call each other theannoying sisters.
Go get her book.
I mean, I'm telling you.
I'm telling you, even if andyou know, I don't know if you
listen I don't want to, but likethe podcast that my husband and
I did on sunday, I am like onand on, I'm like she's such a
great writer and I can't wait tobe here.

(01:12:16):
And it's not here and it'srunning late and just like.
And I'm like this woman andhe's like didn't you do gasping
for air?
I'm like where have you been?
And I'm like, yes, she didgasping for air.
And he was like you know, howdo you rate that book?
And I was like it's one of mytop 10 favorites of all time and
I said I'd say that to her andI say that when she's not here,
you're very sweet.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
Well, it's the truth.

Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
Well, and I'll have one more.

Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
Well, thank you, and I want people to get you have,
like.
I know, but you make me lookbad.
I only have two books out.
You have like what?
14 now 13, 14.
I know you're nodding your headLike it's no big deal.
Another trauma trait, by theway.
Oh, it's no big deal, we'lljust diminish my success.
Oh, my goodness, that's howmany?

(01:13:03):
A lot, okay.
She just gave me fingers andnot the middle finger, though.
No, I didn't give her themiddle finger.

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
I told her how many books I've done, Not plus and
plus.
Total Like first digit, seconddigit.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
Yeah, 41.
Somebody go pick up one of her41 books please.
But honestly, I've said thisbefore.
But all joking aside, ifsomebody is still actually
listening to us, go to acontagious smilecom, because I
actually, if you go through yourshop, you have I loved for me.
I'm a journal person and youhave a lot of really cool

(01:13:36):
journals on there.
Go to the selfie store.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
There's dream journals Cause I'm I'm a I'm a
total dream journalist.
But even just like for yourfree writing, for your emotions,
there's dream journals becauseI'm a total dream journalist,
but even just like for your freewriting, for your emotions,
it's one of the best things youcan do for your mental health,
especially if you're still in asituation.
Yes, it's one of the bestthings you can do for yourself.
So pick up one of her journals,start free writing and we'll
talk to you more about all thatstuff next time.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
And their purpose.
I want everybody to knowthey're purposely written so
that if you're still in thatenvironment situation, your
attacker, your abuser will notknow, because it's done where
you will know and you'll knowwhen you're reading it, but the
layout of it and the covers arenot going to give any indication
.
Yeah, they're inconspicuous.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
That's important.

Speaker 1 (01:14:19):
Yeah, absolutely, and between that site and Amazon I
wanted to be able to have people.
Where I learned the hard wayand it's in who Clicked First,
where I had a book about how toget out and survive on my office
, in my office, and he came inand so I was like I don't want
that.
So if people are at work orthey're on their laptop or
they're on their phone, they candownload it and hide it in a

(01:14:41):
file somewhere where there's allthese other workbooks and
things of that nature, where youcan go and get help and advice
and daily reminders of howwonderful you are.
And so that's where this storecomes in, and so you can go and
get the digital downloads ofthings and not have to worry
about the physical book beingaround.

Speaker 2 (01:14:59):
Yeah, and thank you for pointing that out, because
that's part of why I did mybooks in e-book format as well
as print, because it's hard tohave a book that says abuse on
the front of it.
Yes, just sitting around whenyou're in that situation.

(01:15:21):
But, yes, definitely check outa contagious smile dot com.
You can go to my site, dana SDiaz dot com.
Connect with us on socials,where we're all over there.
So we're everywhere.
We try to be, we try to, we tryto make ourselves known so that
you don't have to speak upuntil you are comfortable.
So we're speaking for you.

Speaker 1 (01:15:42):
Absolutely, we got you.
Thank you so much again, asalways.