May 28, 2024 • 47 mins
How do we find healing after unimaginable pain? oin author, counselor, and pastor Reverend Lenita Reeves as she shares her powerful journey from childhood struggles and a traumatic date rape to finding healing through faith. Rev. Lenita discusses overcoming her parents' divorce and self-esteem issues in a culture that often placed lighter-skinned girls on a pedestal. We explore the deeply rooted anger in survivors of assault, using biblical narratives to illustrate the necessity of processing these emotions instead of just doing surface-level forgiveness. Through the story of Joseph, we highlight the power of forgiveness and the Holy Spirit's role in healing. Rev. Lenita's insights offer hope, encouraging listeners to recognize God's purpose in their suffering and rise above shame to embrace their unique grace and destiny. Tune in for a heartfelt prayer and a powerful conversation that promises to inspire and uplift.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jemese (00:00):
Have you ever experienced something so heinous
that you didn't talk about it?
You couldn't talk about it.
It felt like, literally yourvoice was stolen, and if not
your voice, perhaps your destiny.
It felt like your destiny wasstolen and maybe you've got this
emotion of anger that you haveheard people in spiritual
(00:20):
circles tell you oh, just let itgo, just forgive.
What?
If you don't know how to dothat?
This episode is for you.
You're going to find freedominside and you don't want to
miss it.
(00:40):
Welcome to a new creationpodcast where we're pointing
women towards victory in Christ,one Jesus story at a time.
My name is Jameis LachelleDrury.
I'm a licensed clinical socialworker and Christian trauma
therapist.
I'm so excited that you're herewith us.
Let's dive right in to today'sepisode.
Okay, so I want to just welcomeeverybody back to the podcast.
It is such an honor tointroduce this woman of God to
you.
It is such an honor tointroduce this woman of God to
(01:04):
you.
Her name is Reverend LenitaWilliams.
I'm sorry, lenita, let me startover Her name.
Where did that come from?
Rev. Lenita Reeves (01:14):
Her name is Reverend Lenita.
But you know what's funny is,my maiden name is Williamson.
Jemese (01:17):
Is it Okay?
Rev. Lenita Reeves (01:18):
Yes, so that's, interesting.
Jemese (01:23):
I know it's so funny.
So many people don't know we'reeven on my screen.
That is so funny.
We're introducing the ReverendLonita Reeves to you today.
Thank you for being here.
She's an author, she's atrained counselor, she's a
pastor and she would tell youthat she's also a rape survivor.
(01:45):
She's got a story to tell.
She's on a mission now to reachthe nations and to communicate
God's redemptive voice.
I want to welcome you.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (01:59):
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Jemese (02:01):
I'm honored, I'm excited to see what you have to share
and just your transparency aboutwhat you've been through.
I just know that it's going tohelp a lot of women.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself.
I know that I shared a littlebit of an introduction or a bio,
but tell us a little bit aboutyou.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (02:22):
Well, I'm somebody that got used, as one
of the foolish things, toconfound the wisdom of the wise.
When I look at my life and Ilook at my testimony, I'm
reminded of the scripture thatsays not many noble, not many
wise, you know, are reallycalled to do some of the things
that I've been privileged to do.
What I'm doing now is a productof what God healed me from,
(02:44):
what he delivered me, from whathe took me from.
I have the privilege to pastor,I have the privilege to counsel
, you know, I have the privilegeto speak into the lives of both
men and women, but I have aheart for women because I I my
background is is one that nobodywould expect me to be doing
(03:06):
what I'm doing.
I can remember my childhood.
Really, my parents divorcedwhen I was seven years old and I
am the youngest of threesiblings and I'm the darkest
skin and I'm the chunky one.
So I was the darkest and thebiggest of three girls and I
(03:27):
grew up in the South.
So in the South, the lighterskin you had, the more beautiful
you were considered to be, andso I was dealing with that.
And then my parents divorcedwhen I was seven years old and
we were all three girls and I.
When I look back over it, I seethat all three of us dealt with
that in different ways.
For me, I was looking for lovein all the wrong places.
(03:51):
I felt like at the time.
At the time I felt like, youknow, my daddy didn't fight for
us, he didn't want us.
Because at seven years old youdon't understand all the
dynamics of divorce.
You just you don't get it.
I mean, it just feels likeyou've lost something.
And at seven years old youdon't know how to process loss.
And a lot of times people don'trealize that the children of
(04:14):
divorced parents, they gothrough grief.
They don't know how to, theymay not be able to articulate it
, but there is a grievingprocess because it's definitely
loss and grief doesn't just haveto do with someone passing away
.
Grief has to do with loss andsometimes the loss is traumatic
and sometimes divorce can betraumatic.
(04:35):
And so you know that allimpacted me at a very, very
young age and we, you know wewent through some struggles
after that.
You know my mother was verystrong and the older I get, the
more I appreciate my mother forwhat she did as a single parent,
you know, having been marriedbut then divorced and becoming a
(04:56):
single parent, having to raisethree girls on her own, it's not
easy and there are many thingsthat can happen in the process
of that, especially, you know,after the divorce.
We were four, four girls, I'dlike to say, even though my
mother was a woman.
We were all females, you know,and that dynamic is is really an
interesting one, of having torely on God to be the protector,
(05:22):
to be the husband, man, uh, tobe the, the person, the other
person in the house, um and so,anyway, it was just uh that
impacted me.
And so in high school, uh, Iended up dating a guy I never
should have dated.
Uh, I was at 15.
Um, maybe I was 14.
(05:42):
I was somewhere between 14 and15 when I met him, but he was in
his twenties and he would cometo the high school and visit.
So that tells you the kind ofperson that I was dealing with.
But because I was strugglingwith, uh, you know, esteem and
and body issues and not feelingas pretty as my uh, two older
sisters, because he showed mesome attention, I just I fell
(06:04):
for it, hook line and sinker andended up being date raped and
wow, wow.
So it was a traumatic journey,to say the least, and one of the
things that I appreciate somuch about God is that he
literally rescued me because Iwas made to go to church, we
(06:28):
were made to go to church, but Idid not receive Christ for
myself until after that.
And so he literally rescued mebecause I sat in church for
years and no one was talkingabout what was my deepest hurt,
because, you know, it was tabooto talk about raving church.
That's, you know, that's not aSunday morning message, at least
(06:50):
not where I came from, at leastnot where I grew up.
So, you know, you can.
It's I felt I found it amazingto sit in church for years and
nobody be talking about what wasreally, really plaguing me.
And that's why now, as a seniorpastor, I'm very vocal about my
testimony, because I believethat if we don't talk about
(07:10):
these things, we're nottransparent, then people are not
going to get the healing thatthey need.
And I also believe that ifchurch is the place where my
soul can be saved, then it oughtto be the place where the
broken pieces of my soul can beput back together and issues
like abuse can be addressed.
Now, today, there are moreministries that address it, like
(07:34):
Tomorrow Ministries andRecovery Ministries, but when I
was coming up those things werefew and far between.
So God literally rescued me.
Nobody was talking about it andI had so much shame that it was
difficult for me to open upabout it and seek out help.
So God I always say literallyrescued me actually a package of
(08:01):
things that will attack someonewho has been abused or even
molested, inappropriatelytouched or even severe betrayal.
And he showed me that in thescriptures.
In the scriptures and that'swhere the first book that I
wrote, breaking the Silence, theJourney from Rape to Redemption
.
That's how that book came about.
(08:22):
It is literally the revelationthat God gave me in my healing
journey and in my healingdaughter, and you'll find the
(08:47):
account of that in Genesis 34.
And then, of course, thebiblical account of the rape of
Tamar, david's daughter, by herhalf-brother, amnon.
And so when you dive into thosethings, you can see healing.
The first thing that we can seethat God helped me to see in
the life of Dinah, jacob's onlydaughter, is that she was
(09:10):
looking for female companionship.
She didn't go out for a hookup.
Jemese (09:17):
She didn't get dressed inappropriately.
She was going to the club.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (09:20):
It was nothing like that it was nothing
like that.
Nothing like that, In fact.
The scripture says she went outto see the daughters of the
land.
So Jacob had 12 sons and shewas the only daughter.
So you have to imagine that shewas craving some female
companionship.
Jemese (09:39):
Yeah.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (09:39):
With 12 brothers.
Jemese (09:40):
Come on.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (09:41):
Imagine.
I mean, I know people with oneor two brothers and their
brothers get on their nerves.
It's like please get out of myface, oh my God.
Of times there is blameattached to the victim and the
(10:13):
blame is often misplaced.
Well, if you look at Dinah, shewas not to blame, she was
looking for female companionship, and so that helps us a little
bit when it comes to this issueof blame.
It helped me to let go of blameand say well, if I hadn't been
with this guy, this wouldn'thappen to me.
I mean, he had no right toviolate me, whatever the
situation or circumstance was.
And then we also see this issueof anger in the biblical
(10:35):
account of Dinah.
The issue of anger becauseShechem, the prince of Shechem
who violated her, came back toJacob along with his father and
said look, I wronged her, I wantto marry her.
And Jacob, having the wisdomand understanding the tradition
of the day, was negotiating forthat.
(10:56):
He wanted his daughter to bemarried so that she could leave
the stigma of having beenviolated and transition into
being an honored wife.
Now, what many people don'tknow is that the Jewish
tradition of that time was thatif you violate a woman and you
marry her, you can never put heraway.
(11:17):
You must care for her all thedays of your life.
That was the Jewish tradition.
So Jacob understood that ifthis guy married her she would
be set for life.
That was the Jewish tradition.
So Jacob understood that ifthis guy married her she would
be set for life.
He could never put her away.
He would always have to providefor her and she would be
treated like a princess becausehe was the prince of Shechem.
But her brothers held on toanger and when they agreed to be
(11:41):
circumcised because Jacob saidthe only way you can, they said
you know.
They said to them the only wayyou can marry our sister, our
daughter, is you must becircumcised.
She cannot marry somebody whodoesn't have the sign of the
covenant.
So Shechem, all the men ofShechem, agreed to it.
12 sons of Jacob waited untilShechem was weak from being
(12:08):
circumcised and attacked thecity and killed the man that
would have married their sisterand restored her honor.
So this is what anger did.
It prevented her from moving onto honor.
And God showed me that if Istayed in the anger that I had
dealt with for years, I wouldnever move on to honor.
And so this is something thatanybody who's been assaulted, a
(12:31):
victim of intimate partnerviolence or severely betrayed
even betrayed in the context ofa marriage relationship you know
your spouse was unfaithful.
You have to deal with the anger, and I've also found that
there's no sense in talking tome about forgiveness if I'm
angry.
Jemese (12:51):
Amen, I mean, come on, it's just not going to stick.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (12:53):
It's not going to stick.
And the few times, you know, Isaid that I sat in church for
years and nobody was addressingit.
The few times that somebodyattempted to mention it, it was
from such a male-dominatedperspective of just hurry up and
forgive and get over it.
Well, no, I don't think so,because if I'm angry, there's no
(13:14):
way that forgiveness is goingto really manifest.
The Bible says be angry and sinnot.
So you have to help me get pastthe anger to the point where
I'm not sinning anymore before Ican embrace forgiveness,
because unforgiveness is a sin.
So if I'm supposed to be angryand sin not, then I have to deal
(13:36):
with the anger before I can putaway the sin of unforgiveness.
And a lot of times incounseling we miss it,
especially in Christiancounseling, because we just
focus on forgive, forgive,forgive, no.
Help me process this anger.
Help me to understand what I'mreally angry about.
What did I lose?
What has got me so enraged?
(13:56):
What is it, you know, that I'mso angry about?
Help me to unpack it so I canknow what I'm letting go and
what I'm forgiving.
And you see, I had to gothrough that process to
understand that rape is to awoman what being castrated is to
a man, that if you rob a man ofhis masculinity by castrating
(14:18):
him, then rape robs a woman ofher femininity.
You see, and that is somethingthat will make you boiling hot,
angry and enraged, and you haveto learn how to unpack that
process, that anger, and workthrough it and be able to not
let that anger, the emotion ofanger, turn into the spirit of
(14:41):
anger that lingers with you andmanifest at the most unfortunate
times and manifest at the mostunfortunate times.
So when we don't help survivorsunpack the anger and work
through it, you see things likewhat we call personality begins
to shift and they begin tobecome this other person, this
(15:02):
sarcastic person, this angryperson, this temperamental
person, this person that willcut somebody down, this person
who reacts.
You know, because when you can't, when you're violated and you
you cannot defend yourself, itcauses you to to, to boil, like
(15:23):
how dare you, how could you dothis to me, how could you take
this from me?
And I have no recourse, I can'tdo anything to you.
What you want to do is you wantto last out and defend yourself
.
There are built in defensemechanisms in us.
We have built in defensemechanisms.
When we hear a loud noise, werun.
When we hear a boom, we takeshelter.
(15:46):
If somebody swings at us, weduck.
These are built-in defensemechanisms because we have an
innate proclivity to defendourselves.
So if you are violated and youcan't defend yourself,
everything in you rises up inanger.
And when you don't deal with it, you see things like, for
(16:08):
example, someone who's beenviolated and hasn't dealt with
the anger.
If they're a person of color,maybe they go into a store and
they feel like somebody'sfollowing them because they're a
person of color and suspectsthem of stealing.
Or maybe they get to theregister and the cashier treats
them with some kind of racism.
You see them unleash in thestore and they are loud.
(16:34):
And have you ever experiencedthat?
You know you're in the storeand it's like what happened.
Jemese (16:39):
What is that about?
It's really going on.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (16:42):
Yes, there is some undealt with anger, some
undealt with anger, and if thatresides in you for years, then
you have the tendency for peopleto characterize you as this
sort of jaded person.
But the real issue isunresolved anger, and I lived
that for years.
I lived that for many, manyyears and it's very, very
(17:05):
dangerous.
And so there's a package, as Isaid.
There's the blame, there's theanger, there's also the shame,
one of the things that Tamar,when she was violated by her
half-brother, she said where canI go?
Where can I hide my face forthis thing that you've done for
(17:26):
me?
Where can I hide?
So shame makes you want to hide.
Right, you feel like everybodyin the room knows your dirty
little secret, but really andtruly the only you know it.
So you, you, you withdraw, youwant to hide.
That's what shame does to aperson.
It causes you to withdraw, itcauses you to want to hide.
Even when you're in, whenyou're surrounded by people, you
(17:47):
want to withdraw, you want tohide.
Even when you're surrounded bypeople, you want to withdraw,
you want to hide.
And I didn't understand whatwas going on with me.
But through the scriptures Igained insight.
God helped me, you know, when Ireally looked at and unpacked
and studied these two biblicalaccounts and the things that
were happening to them.
The other thing that can impactsomeone who's been violated is
(18:10):
soul ties.
In Genesis 34, when Shechemraped Dinah, the Bible says that
after he violated her, his soulclave to Dinah.
And that word clave is the sameword for leave and cleave.
In the context of marriage itliterally means to stick like
(18:32):
glue.
So in the context of marriage,god uses sex to stick the two
people together and the twobecome one flesh.
But outside of the context ofmarriage, that same cleaving
force becomes destructivebecause there's no covenant,
there's no commitment.
So when Shechem raped Dinah,his soul clave to her.
(18:54):
And I understood through thatscripture that when somebody is
sexually assaulted there's anattack of soul time, because
what God intended to be joinedtogether forever, it is ripped
apart.
Now, if you take two pieces ofpaper and you glue them together
, two plain white pieces ofpaper, and you stick them
(19:17):
together with Elmer's glue andyou try to separate them, both
of them are going to be damaged.
Jemese (19:23):
Yes.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (19:24):
No one piece of paper is going to come out
unscathed, and that is whathappens outside of the context
of marriage.
When people have intercourseand there's no commitment and no
covenant, it's like two piecesof paper glued together that you
pull apart.
Both pieces of paper areaffected.
And so all of these things arethings that God revealed and
(19:50):
showed me through the scripture,that were plaguing, that were
attacking, that I needed to dealwith, that I needed to deal
with, and a lot of times peopledon't understand they can carry
these things for years.
Now, even from an occupationalstandpoint, we understand from
the research that rape traumacan persist an average of four
(20:11):
years, and that's if someonegets help.
That's only if someone getshelp.
It can persist an average offour years.
Rape trauma can persist anaverage of four years, and
that's if someone gets help.
Now, if they don't get help, itcan persist a whole lot longer
and a person can walk aroundreally not being able to process
(20:33):
and unpack what's going on withthem.
And this is why I value trainedChristian counselors.
I don't know what your churchbackground is, but there's some
groups of believers who don'tbelieve in counseling.
They believe, you know, youpray, you cast out a devil or
(20:54):
whatever.
I don't disagree with that.
But at the same time, after youdo those things and deal with
those spiritual issues, youstill need strategies to deal
with yourself right.
You still need to be able toprocess what is going on with
you, and that's where counselingcan greatly help the believer.
(21:15):
And I'm from the South, andthere's this whole thing with
African-Americans.
We don't do that.
We don't get counseling whereit used to be.
It's not so much prevalent nowbecause people are changing
their minds about it, but itused to be that.
You know, if you were a personof color, you don't go to
counseling.
Jemese (21:34):
Right, that's for those other people yeah, I actually
even spoke with someone who, um,you know I consider young
person in their 40s who justcame to the awareness that
mental health is a real thing.
Mental health in the Blackcommunity is real.
That's how much that stigma inthe African-American culture was
(21:58):
so prevalent that we don't dothat.
What do you mean?
We don't talk to people aboutour dirty laundry or what
Grandpa Pookie and him did.
We don't talk about that.
And this person is like it'slike god, um, reached them and
said no, no, and they're comingto themselves realizing wow, no,
(22:19):
mental health is a real thingthere's physical health there's
emotional health.
Mental health is a real thing,even in the Black community and
I agree with you we are comingto.
The times are changing a littlebit in the regard that it's not
as taboo anymore.
But you know, it does stillfeel sometimes like we have to
(22:42):
continue the dialogue to make itmore acceptable and common and
just kind of keep that momentthem going, because all people
need help.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (22:55):
Come on now, we all need it and um yeah,
yeah, the thing that the thingthat a lot of people don't
realize is that they're examplesof of mental health issues all
throughout the bible.
I mean samara is one that Ijust said.
She was dealing with shame.
But even the strong people, thepeople we think of as
(23:16):
patriarchs and the mighty men ofthe Bible, have mental health
issues.
Moses at one point said God, ifthis is how you're going to
deal with me, just kill me.
He was suicidal.
Moses was suicidal.
He was asking God to kill him.
This is a mental health issue.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, come on now,you know he was in a very bad
(23:39):
mental state, yeah.
And then Elijah, of course,when uh, uh, jezebel was after
him uh, you know, he had thesame, uh, mental health issue as
well he was like, okay, lord,just take me out of here, just
take me out of here.
So the pressure of ministry isreal.
It's very, very real, and wehave to make sure that our
(24:01):
mental health is as well as ourspiritual health, and I
appreciate that we need both,that we need both, because when
you talk about psychology andpsyche, it is the focus of the
brain, the mind, and how thatimpacts our behavior and the
rest of us.
But we are not just soul, we arespirit as well.
(24:25):
Right, we are body, soul andspirit, and so we need both.
We need to address the spiritand we need to address the mind,
the psyche, which has to dowith the soul, and we need to
address the body.
So I don't think that we can goto either extreme.
We can't go to the extreme thatwe don't need counseling, we
just need some Jesus and we'llbe all right, we just going to
(24:46):
pray it away.
And I don't think we can go tothe other extreme, that dealing
with the psyche is all that weneed as well.
We need all of it.
We need spiritual healing, weneed mental healing, we need
physical health.
We have to be a very balancedpeople, and if the church
(25:06):
doesn't speak about these things, then believers will go to
those who don't understand thespirit for help.
Right, yeah, and to a largeextent, this is what has been
happening.
But we need but we need to be aa balanced people yes, I agree
(25:27):
and I think that there are.
There's insight.
There's insight in thescriptures for both right.
The scriptures are, for thebeliever, the basis of our lives
.
So there's insight for themental in the scriptures,
there's insight for thespiritual in the scriptures,
there's insight for the physicalin the scriptures.
We must be a people who graspthe counsel of God.
(25:49):
He said the spirit of whatCounsel is one of the
manifestations of the HolySpirit, according to Isaiah 60,
61.
So we need to be a people whoembrace that holistic counsel
from the scriptures.
I was listening to somethingearlier today talking about
healing from betrayal inmarriage and about forgiving.
(26:14):
Well, I talk about in my firstbook, breaking the Silence, the
Journey from Rape to Redemption.
That forgiveness is a process.
And who can we look to for that?
We can look to Joseph.
Joseph was favored by his father, had a coat of many colors.
His brothers were mad.
They, you know they didn't likethe fact that.
(26:36):
No, this guy don't have to dono work, we out here in the
fields, and what does he do?
Just in the house with daddy,just, you know, just pulling on
his coat of in colors.
And so they conspired to killhim.
And then one of the brothersspoke up and said we can't kill
him, this is our blood, so let'ssell him.
So they put him in a pit andthen the next day they sold him
(26:57):
into slavery.
Well, he was 17 years old whenthat happened.
He didn't see his brothersagain for 13 years, and we know
that because the scripture tellsus how old he was when he began
to rule in Egypt.
So at least 13 years had passed, uh, from the time that he last
saw them when they showed up inEgypt looking for food because
(27:18):
of the famine.
And what did Joseph do?
He stopped it to them.
He said y'all spies, y'alldidn't come here looking for
food.
Y'all spies, y'all ain'tgetting nothing from up and over
here.
And then the one who wanted tokill him, he said put him in
jail, the rest of y'all.
If y'all really not spies, goget the other brother, but this
one he's spending the night injail.
(27:38):
He's going to stay in jail tilly'all get back.
He was hot, he was still angry.
He had not yet forgiven them,and we know that because of what
he did and the fact that thescripture says that he spoke
very harshly to them.
So Joseph was still processingthat anger.
Jemese (28:02):
And you know what you bring up.
It reminds me of how, oh man,the with a lot of women who will
say I can't believe that allthis is coming up, because
something has triggered them andit's been many years.
But it's like all those sameemotions come back up again and
it's, it's a surprise.
And so even in this testamentand this account in the bible of
(28:23):
joseph, it's such a reminder ofour very human experience.
Those emotions, they have to gosomewhere.
You can't just, you know a lotof people say, well, time heals
all wounds.
No, it doesn't.
You have to deal with theemotion.
You can't just stuff it andexpect that the passage of time
is going to do for you what thetouch of jesus, you know, hit
(28:47):
you.
You surrendering it to Jesus,that's one thing.
I'm actually going to pull upthese emotions, I'm going to
surrender it to you, lord, andI'm going to trust you to help
me through the process of thisanger, in all of this.
But no, people say, well, Iforgive, and they move on.
Oh, I had never thought aboutit in that way, but absolutely
(29:09):
all of those feelings were stillthere with Joseph.
He said no, you're going tostay right here in jail.
Go get that other brother ofmine.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (29:18):
Exactly, he was hot, he was still angry, and
this is this is the danger oftrying to push people to
forgiveness when they haven'tdealt with the anger yet, when
they haven't dealt with theanger yet.
We have to deal with the angerfor the forgiveness to stick,
because part of the role of theHoly Spirit is to convince us of
sin.
And when you are angry, it isdifficult for you to be
(29:39):
convinced that you need toreally that truly be convinced
that you need to forgive someone, because when you are angry,
you are still in that mode ofjustifying your anger.
You're not ready to forgive.
You're still in vengeance mode.
You're still in I can't believeyou did this to me mode.
You're still in where is thejustice in this?
(30:01):
I mean, you're still in adifferent mode altogether.
You're not in the phase toforgive, and so we have to help
people unpack their anger.
And the turnaround for Joseph iswhen he came to a conclusion
and he was convinced.
You see, the Holy Spiritconvinces and you're not
convicted of sin until you'reconvinced that you are sinning.
(30:24):
And most people who are angryare not convinced that they're
sinning.
Most people who are angry feeljustified in their anger until
the Holy Spirit convinces themthat they need to let it go.
And the turnaround point forJoseph was he was convinced that
you meant it for evil, but Godmeant it for good, to save many.
That's when he actually forgavehis brothers and embraced it
(30:44):
and wept.
The scripture says he wept andembraced them.
That's when he actually forgavehis brothers and embraced it
and wept.
The scripture says he wept andembraced them.
That was the turning point forhim when he could see God's hand
in his suffering and God's handand what his brothers did to
him and violated.
When he could see God's hand init, that's when he was
convinced that he could not holdon to the anger any longer
(31:09):
powerful.
That was the turning point.
Yeah, so we have to be able tohelp people unpack the anger and
we have to help survivorsrealize that god is not to blame
.
It is the.
It is the evil, demonicallyinfluenced will of your
perpetrator.
It is not god.
And that is how the account oftamar helped me.
(31:32):
If you read the account oftamar, it says that Amnon was so
vexed he couldn't eat.
He grew lean.
He was in a spiritual or evilspiritual state of obsession.
He was obsessed with her.
And that kind of influence onsomeone to bring them to the
(31:52):
point of obsession is whatdrives someone to violate
somebody.
It's an obsession, it's anobsessive desire for self-grat
them, and so it is not God and alot of times, people who go
(32:17):
through sexual assault.
The big question is why did Godlet this happen to me?
It wasn't God, it was the enemyworking through that person's
will for self-gratitude andpower will for self-gratitude
(32:38):
and power and so we can't blameGod.
I mean, do we blame God whenother things we can't blame him?
So that is something that wehave to work through.
And so Joseph got to the pointwhere he understood I can't be
mad with God for letting thishappen to me.
You meant it for evil.
God didn't mean it for evil.
You guys meant it for evil, notGod.
(32:58):
So he was able to separate thetwo things.
But a lot of times, until weare able to separate the two
things, we remain in anger Angerwith either the perpetrator or
anger with God.
And a lot of times people don'tunderstand that it's okay for
them to admit that they're angrywith God and they have to
process that, they have to dealwith it until they can come to
the point of separating the twothings to understand that God
(33:21):
didn't mean this for evil.
It was the evil influence ordemonically influenced will of
the person, of the perpetrator,and their desire for
self-gratification and power.
But until you can separatethose two things, there will
still be some underlying anger,even if you say, oh, I forgave
them.
Jemese (33:43):
Yeah, because it's more than just words.
Right, I think we want toquickly put our words on it and
say you want to speak life?
And say because we, we know,logically, we know even by the
word of god, that forgiveness iswhat we're told to do.
It's the command he tells us weare to forgive and so we,
wanting to be righteous in thelord, we want, we, we want to
(34:07):
forgive.
But I think a lot of times whatthat is?
It can be almost it's kind of afunny way to say it but it can
be almost like weaponized, theenemy will pervert that or even
our own will will twist that upto just okay, well, I forgive, I
forgive, but you're really just, you're really just stuffing it
some more so that it can pop upagain in six months or when
(34:31):
you're in that new relationshipor you know.
My question for you would beand and and the work that you've
done with, with other otherpeople and even in yourself.
How do you get to the pointwhere you can separate it, like
you were discussing?
How does a person actually getthere where you can actually
(34:53):
separate it and say, okay, thatwas not God, that was that
wicked act, or even have thespiritual eyes to say I know,
that was the devil, that was thedevil, but this was not God.
You know, how do you get therewhen you're in the thick of that
heavy emotion, how do you getthere?
(35:14):
when you're in the thick of thatheavy emotion.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (35:15):
Well, one of the things that I would say is
that for me personally, it wasnot until I initiated I wouldn't
say initiated, but it wasn'tuntil I really started my
formation and began to grow inGod in my relationship with him,
that I could separate those twothings.
So what usually happens is theenemy wants you to run away from
(35:41):
God when you should be runningto him.
And fortunately, god was longsuffering with me and very, very
patient with me, and as I beganto grow in my relationship and
fellowship with him, he began towork some of those things out
of me and he began to help me tosee that I didn't have to put
pressure on myself, thatforgiveness was a process.
And the same way we go fromfaith to faith to glory to glory
(36:04):
, we go from one level offorgiveness to another level of
forgiveness.
It's not instant.
It's not instant.
You know, we keep on confessingforgiveness, we keep on having
a commitment to forgiveness, butwhat we have to do to help
people is to remove the pressurefor that to happen overnight.
(36:24):
And that's what God did for me.
He removed the pressure forthat when he showed me Joseph,
and he also showed me thatJoseph could not come to the
place of separating that untilhe entered a certain level of
his destiny.
You see, he had to be in thepalace to be able to do that,
because his place in the palacehelped him to see that this is
(36:48):
where God intended me to be.
Sometimes, trauma in life is thestepping stone to take us to
the palace, but it's difficultfor us to comprehend that in our
minds, his ways are higher thanour ways and his thoughts are
higher than our thoughts.
And so when I began to get to acertain level in my destiny,
then I could understand that, oh, the enemy was trying to
(37:12):
silence my voice.
It's not that I did anythingwrong, it's not that God was
doing it.
The enemy was trying to keep mesilent in shame, in rejection,
because God has called me to bea great voice.
And until you get to a certainlevel in your destiny, you won't
be able to separate those twothings.
(37:33):
For some people, they have aninkling.
They have this inkling thatthey're destined for something
great, that there's somethinggreater on the inside of them,
but because they are wrestlingwith shame, wrestling with
rejection, they never embrace itfully.
And this is what the enemyactually wants to accomplish by
violating someone or by gettingsomeone crippled, through being
(37:55):
molested, fondled, raped orsevere betrayal, divorce.
You know all of those thingsthe enemy.
What he wants to do is to takea foothold in that and cripple
you from embracing who God saysthat you are and the assignment
that God has for your life.
And so, as I begin to see moreand more inklings of my destiny,
(38:15):
I was able to separate thosethings more and more and
understand that that definitelywasn't God, because God has
called me to be a voice.
And then, further down thetimeline, I began to see that
God could take that thing andturn it into a platform to heal
others.
It is only God who can takeyour pain and turn it into a
(38:37):
platform to help others and healothers.
God never puts more on us thanwe can bear if we can cling to
him.
But you see what the enemytries to lock us down.
And I say you know in thatfirst book that the enemy puts
the greatest effort intosilencing the greatest voices.
(38:59):
So if he has targeted someoneto be attacked, to be assaulted,
nine times out of 10, they arecalled to be a great voice.
But it's difficult to separatethat until, as I said, said you
get to a certain point in yourdestiny yeah so what we have to
do as counselors and pastors andand coaches, is to help people,
(39:21):
uh to to move along and toidentify the greatness in them,
so that they understand thatthat is actually what the enemy
is after.
He's after the greatness in you, and that's what helped me to
(39:42):
separate the two, because I wasable to eventually, along the
way, point to the things thatGod had put in me to be a great
voice.
Jemese (39:46):
Yes, praise God.
And it's almost like knowingthat you can look back at your
past and say, oh, and it'salmost like, I think, when we
approach it, just like youshared, it's almost like it
takes the power away frombecause, going all the way back
to the beginning of your story,when you said the shame was you
(40:06):
were, you were young and thatshame was already trying to
creep and that rejection was atthe door knocking.
You know, you can see the, youcan see the plan and the purpose
way back then you know itstarted when you were too small
to even understand any of this.
That's when it started, but thelord, just like joseph, the lord
(40:28):
meant it for good.
That's right the lord took thatthing and he turned it for good,
and that is just so powerful.
It makes you want to shout, itmakes you want to.
You know Hallelujah.
Yes, it does, because there'sjust no power.
And what I'm essentiallyhearing you say also is you have
(40:49):
to put your focus on the rightplace.
We're not acting like it didn'thappen, we're not denying it,
we're not shoving it under therug, but we are locking eyes
right on Jesus.
He said don't look to the rightor to the left.
(41:10):
You put your focus back on him.
You have to spend time with himto know who he really is, to
know his character, to know hisnature, and when you do that, it
helps you to take your eyes offfrom these evils.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (41:25):
Yes.
Jemese (41:26):
And put them right on the Lord, who is love, who is
good, and you know, it's just sopowerful yeah, yeah, yeah, but
you, and it is so true.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (41:38):
I will also say at at 20, I couldn't see it.
I mean, at 20 years old, Icouldn't see it.
It took some time, it did.
It took some time.
But if you think about it, what?
What happened, even to Jesus?
The Bible says that Herod wastroubled over a little baby boy.
(41:58):
Why?
Because he saw the greatness.
The Bible says that the wisemen, they saw his star.
You see, and sometimes thereare things that the enemy can
see about us that we can't seeabout ourselves.
There's sometimes greatness inus that the enemy can see about
us that we can't see aboutourselves.
There's sometimes greatness inus that the enemy sees and we
(42:19):
don't see it.
So, at a baby, a whole king.
Now Herod is king of a wholekingdom, but he's intimidated by
a little baby boy to the extentthat he wants to kill all the
boys under two years old.
What intimidates a king to dothat?
It is greatness, it is theGod-given greatness.
I'm not saying that in anyprideful way, but God endows us
(42:41):
with greatness, he crowns uswith glory and honor.
The scripture says it.
And so, even for Jesus, he wastargeted because of his future
greatness and the potential thatwas on the inside of him.
So I want women to know womenthat are listening that if
you've gone through somethingthat has sought or tried to
cripple you, to cripple yourconfidence, to make you ashamed,
(43:04):
to make you withdraw, to makeyou hide, don't give in to it.
There is greatness on theinside of you.
God has placed in each of ushis own piece of his own
multifaceted grace, and you'vebeen endowed with a piece of his
multifaceted grace and thatmeans that there's greatness on
the inside of you.
(43:25):
Whatever is trying to make youfeel like you need to hide, like
you can't show your face, likeyou can't shine, like you can't
be all that you're called to be,it is not from God and you can
overcome it.
You can overcome it.
The enemy meant it for evil,but God meant it for good, to
help you to see that there'ssomething greater in you.
(43:46):
You can rise above it.
You can be healed.
If God did it for me, he can doit for you.
It's a process.
I'm not saying it's going to bea cakewalk.
It's going to be easy, but itcan be done.
We are more than conquerors.
There is an overcomer in you.
There is a conqueror in you.
Jemese (44:04):
Glory to God.
Thank you so much.
First of all, I want to saythank you for your transparency.
This is just so powerful.
As we close out, would you prayfor our listeners, however the
Lord leads you, and then we'llshare where listeners can find
you if they want to connect.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (44:21):
Amen, father , we thank you so much.
You are hallowed, you are holy,you are God, you are the King
of all kings, ancient of days.
We come to you in the name ofJesus.
We pray for the listeningaudience today.
The Father that you, oh God,you would make the difference.
We thank you, father, that youare God that heals.
You said you are the God thathealeth thee, and so I pray for
(44:44):
healing in the lives of everylistener in the name of Jesus.
Healing from emotional wounds,healing from spiritual wounds,
healing from blame, from shame,from rejection, from soul ties,
from anything that wants to keepthem in hiding and keep them,
father, from being all that youhave called them to be.
(45:06):
We speak to that thing rightnow and we say let it be
uprooted.
In the name of Jesus, we speakinto the lives of the listeners
that we speak to that greatness,we speak to the destiny, we
speak to the assignment, theplan and the purpose that you
have for them and we declare letit come forth.
In the name of Jesus.
We thank you, lord, that youare God that binds up the wounds
(45:28):
of the brokenhearted.
And right now, in the name ofJesus, we release that healing
power, that balm of Gilead tobind up the wounds of any
brokenhearted person that islistening, anybody that's been
betrayed, assaulted, violated.
In the name of Jesus, thank you, lord.
We release that healing now andwe thank you, father, that
there shall be testimonies.
(45:48):
We thank you, lord, that theyare being empowered now to get
up, to try again, to seek outthe help that they need and to
become all that you have calledthem to be.
We command destiny to awaken.
We command purpose to awaken.
We say rise from the ashes andrun and be everything that God
(46:08):
has called you to be.
In the mighty name of Jesus, weagree and say amen.
Jemese (46:15):
Amen, amen, amen.
Thank you so much.
How can our listeners find youonline and connect with you if
they want to check out more ofyour books?
Tell us where we could findthat.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (46:28):
Well, the fastest way is just to go to the
website lenitarevesorgL-E-N-I-T-A-R-E-E-V-E-SO-R-G.
That's the fastest way.
It's my website and then allthe social media handles are at
Pastor Lenita.
That's all the social mediasYouTube, facebook, instagram,
tiktok is at Pastor Lenita.
Jemese (46:51):
Okay, and I will have all of those links in the show
notes or in the description forthis episode.
This was just so awesome thankyou so much.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (47:01):
Yes, thank you thank you.
Jemese (47:03):
That's a wrap for another episode.
As always, I appreciate you somuch for tuning in week after
week.
If you have a testimony forjesus that you know the world
needs to hear, reach out to meat anewcreationpodcastcom or,
better yet, go and find me on mysocials.
I'm on pretty much all socialmedia platforms at Jameice
(47:25):
Lachelle.
That's the best way to connectwith me.
All that information is in theshow notes.
I will see you in the nextepisode.
May God bless you and keep youuntil we meet again.
Have you ever experienced something so heinous
that you didn't talk about it?
You couldn't talk about it.
It felt like, literally yourvoice was stolen, and if not
your voice, perhaps your destiny.
It felt like your destiny wasstolen and maybe you've got this
emotion of anger that you haveheard people in spiritual
(00:20):
circles tell you oh, just let itgo, just forgive.
What?
If you don't know how to dothat?
This episode is for you.
You're going to find freedominside and you don't want to
miss it.
(00:40):
Welcome to a new creationpodcast where we're pointing
women towards victory in Christ,one Jesus story at a time.
My name is Jameis LachelleDrury.
I'm a licensed clinical socialworker and Christian trauma
therapist.
I'm so excited that you're herewith us.
Let's dive right in to today'sepisode.
Okay, so I want to just welcomeeverybody back to the podcast.
It is such an honor tointroduce this woman of God to
you.
It is such an honor tointroduce this woman of God to
(01:04):
you.
Her name is Reverend LenitaWilliams.
I'm sorry, lenita, let me startover Her name.
Where did that come from?
Rev. Lenita Reeves (01:14):
Her name is Reverend Lenita.
But you know what's funny is,my maiden name is Williamson.
Jemese (01:17):
Is it Okay?
Rev. Lenita Reeves (01:18):
Yes, so that's, interesting.
Jemese (01:23):
I know it's so funny.
So many people don't know we'reeven on my screen.
That is so funny.
We're introducing the ReverendLonita Reeves to you today.
Thank you for being here.
She's an author, she's atrained counselor, she's a
pastor and she would tell youthat she's also a rape survivor.
(01:45):
She's got a story to tell.
She's on a mission now to reachthe nations and to communicate
God's redemptive voice.
I want to welcome you.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (01:59):
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Jemese (02:01):
I'm honored, I'm excited to see what you have to share
and just your transparency aboutwhat you've been through.
I just know that it's going tohelp a lot of women.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself.
I know that I shared a littlebit of an introduction or a bio,
but tell us a little bit aboutyou.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (02:22):
Well, I'm somebody that got used, as one
of the foolish things, toconfound the wisdom of the wise.
When I look at my life and Ilook at my testimony, I'm
reminded of the scripture thatsays not many noble, not many
wise, you know, are reallycalled to do some of the things
that I've been privileged to do.
What I'm doing now is a productof what God healed me from,
(02:44):
what he delivered me, from whathe took me from.
I have the privilege to pastor,I have the privilege to counsel
, you know, I have the privilegeto speak into the lives of both
men and women, but I have aheart for women because I I my
background is is one that nobodywould expect me to be doing
(03:06):
what I'm doing.
I can remember my childhood.
Really, my parents divorcedwhen I was seven years old and I
am the youngest of threesiblings and I'm the darkest
skin and I'm the chunky one.
So I was the darkest and thebiggest of three girls and I
(03:27):
grew up in the South.
So in the South, the lighterskin you had, the more beautiful
you were considered to be, andso I was dealing with that.
And then my parents divorcedwhen I was seven years old and
we were all three girls and I.
When I look back over it, I seethat all three of us dealt with
that in different ways.
For me, I was looking for lovein all the wrong places.
(03:51):
I felt like at the time.
At the time I felt like, youknow, my daddy didn't fight for
us, he didn't want us.
Because at seven years old youdon't understand all the
dynamics of divorce.
You just you don't get it.
I mean, it just feels likeyou've lost something.
And at seven years old youdon't know how to process loss.
And a lot of times people don'trealize that the children of
(04:14):
divorced parents, they gothrough grief.
They don't know how to, theymay not be able to articulate it
, but there is a grievingprocess because it's definitely
loss and grief doesn't just haveto do with someone passing away
.
Grief has to do with loss andsometimes the loss is traumatic
and sometimes divorce can betraumatic.
(04:35):
And so you know that allimpacted me at a very, very
young age and we, you know wewent through some struggles
after that.
You know my mother was verystrong and the older I get, the
more I appreciate my mother forwhat she did as a single parent,
you know, having been marriedbut then divorced and becoming a
(04:56):
single parent, having to raisethree girls on her own, it's not
easy and there are many thingsthat can happen in the process
of that, especially, you know,after the divorce.
We were four, four girls, I'dlike to say, even though my
mother was a woman.
We were all females, you know,and that dynamic is is really an
interesting one, of having torely on God to be the protector,
(05:22):
to be the husband, man, uh, tobe the, the person, the other
person in the house, um and so,anyway, it was just uh that
impacted me.
And so in high school, uh, Iended up dating a guy I never
should have dated.
Uh, I was at 15.
Um, maybe I was 14.
(05:42):
I was somewhere between 14 and15 when I met him, but he was in
his twenties and he would cometo the high school and visit.
So that tells you the kind ofperson that I was dealing with.
But because I was strugglingwith, uh, you know, esteem and
and body issues and not feelingas pretty as my uh, two older
sisters, because he showed mesome attention, I just I fell
(06:04):
for it, hook line and sinker andended up being date raped and
wow, wow.
So it was a traumatic journey,to say the least, and one of the
things that I appreciate somuch about God is that he
literally rescued me because Iwas made to go to church, we
(06:28):
were made to go to church, but Idid not receive Christ for
myself until after that.
And so he literally rescued mebecause I sat in church for
years and no one was talkingabout what was my deepest hurt,
because, you know, it was tabooto talk about raving church.
That's, you know, that's not aSunday morning message, at least
(06:50):
not where I came from, at leastnot where I grew up.
So, you know, you can.
It's I felt I found it amazingto sit in church for years and
nobody be talking about what wasreally, really plaguing me.
And that's why now, as a seniorpastor, I'm very vocal about my
testimony, because I believethat if we don't talk about
(07:10):
these things, we're nottransparent, then people are not
going to get the healing thatthey need.
And I also believe that ifchurch is the place where my
soul can be saved, then it oughtto be the place where the
broken pieces of my soul can beput back together and issues
like abuse can be addressed.
Now, today, there are moreministries that address it, like
(07:34):
Tomorrow Ministries andRecovery Ministries, but when I
was coming up those things werefew and far between.
So God literally rescued me.
Nobody was talking about it andI had so much shame that it was
difficult for me to open upabout it and seek out help.
So God I always say literallyrescued me actually a package of
(08:01):
things that will attack someonewho has been abused or even
molested, inappropriatelytouched or even severe betrayal.
And he showed me that in thescriptures.
In the scriptures and that'swhere the first book that I
wrote, breaking the Silence, theJourney from Rape to Redemption
.
That's how that book came about.
(08:22):
It is literally the revelationthat God gave me in my healing
journey and in my healingdaughter, and you'll find the
(08:47):
account of that in Genesis 34.
And then, of course, thebiblical account of the rape of
Tamar, david's daughter, by herhalf-brother, amnon.
And so when you dive into thosethings, you can see healing.
The first thing that we can seethat God helped me to see in
the life of Dinah, jacob's onlydaughter, is that she was
(09:10):
looking for female companionship.
She didn't go out for a hookup.
Jemese (09:17):
She didn't get dressed inappropriately.
She was going to the club.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (09:20):
It was nothing like that it was nothing
like that.
Nothing like that, In fact.
The scripture says she went outto see the daughters of the
land.
So Jacob had 12 sons and shewas the only daughter.
So you have to imagine that shewas craving some female
companionship.
Jemese (09:39):
Yeah.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (09:39):
With 12 brothers.
Jemese (09:40):
Come on.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (09:41):
Imagine.
I mean, I know people with oneor two brothers and their
brothers get on their nerves.
It's like please get out of myface, oh my God.
Of times there is blameattached to the victim and the
(10:13):
blame is often misplaced.
Well, if you look at Dinah, shewas not to blame, she was
looking for female companionship, and so that helps us a little
bit when it comes to this issueof blame.
It helped me to let go of blameand say well, if I hadn't been
with this guy, this wouldn'thappen to me.
I mean, he had no right toviolate me, whatever the
situation or circumstance was.
And then we also see this issueof anger in the biblical
(10:35):
account of Dinah.
The issue of anger becauseShechem, the prince of Shechem
who violated her, came back toJacob along with his father and
said look, I wronged her, I wantto marry her.
And Jacob, having the wisdomand understanding the tradition
of the day, was negotiating forthat.
(10:56):
He wanted his daughter to bemarried so that she could leave
the stigma of having beenviolated and transition into
being an honored wife.
Now, what many people don'tknow is that the Jewish
tradition of that time was thatif you violate a woman and you
marry her, you can never put heraway.
(11:17):
You must care for her all thedays of your life.
That was the Jewish tradition.
So Jacob understood that ifthis guy married her she would
be set for life.
That was the Jewish tradition.
So Jacob understood that ifthis guy married her she would
be set for life.
He could never put her away.
He would always have to providefor her and she would be
treated like a princess becausehe was the prince of Shechem.
But her brothers held on toanger and when they agreed to be
(11:41):
circumcised because Jacob saidthe only way you can, they said
you know.
They said to them the only wayyou can marry our sister, our
daughter, is you must becircumcised.
She cannot marry somebody whodoesn't have the sign of the
covenant.
So Shechem, all the men ofShechem, agreed to it.
12 sons of Jacob waited untilShechem was weak from being
(12:08):
circumcised and attacked thecity and killed the man that
would have married their sisterand restored her honor.
So this is what anger did.
It prevented her from moving onto honor.
And God showed me that if Istayed in the anger that I had
dealt with for years, I wouldnever move on to honor.
And so this is something thatanybody who's been assaulted, a
(12:31):
victim of intimate partnerviolence or severely betrayed
even betrayed in the context ofa marriage relationship you know
your spouse was unfaithful.
You have to deal with the anger, and I've also found that
there's no sense in talking tome about forgiveness if I'm
angry.
Jemese (12:51):
Amen, I mean, come on, it's just not going to stick.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (12:53):
It's not going to stick.
And the few times, you know, Isaid that I sat in church for
years and nobody was addressingit.
The few times that somebodyattempted to mention it, it was
from such a male-dominatedperspective of just hurry up and
forgive and get over it.
Well, no, I don't think so,because if I'm angry, there's no
(13:14):
way that forgiveness is goingto really manifest.
The Bible says be angry and sinnot.
So you have to help me get pastthe anger to the point where
I'm not sinning anymore before Ican embrace forgiveness,
because unforgiveness is a sin.
So if I'm supposed to be angryand sin not, then I have to deal
(13:36):
with the anger before I can putaway the sin of unforgiveness.
And a lot of times incounseling we miss it,
especially in Christiancounseling, because we just
focus on forgive, forgive,forgive, no.
Help me process this anger.
Help me to understand what I'mreally angry about.
What did I lose?
What has got me so enraged?
(13:56):
What is it, you know, that I'mso angry about?
Help me to unpack it so I canknow what I'm letting go and
what I'm forgiving.
And you see, I had to gothrough that process to
understand that rape is to awoman what being castrated is to
a man, that if you rob a man ofhis masculinity by castrating
(14:18):
him, then rape robs a woman ofher femininity.
You see, and that is somethingthat will make you boiling hot,
angry and enraged, and you haveto learn how to unpack that
process, that anger, and workthrough it and be able to not
let that anger, the emotion ofanger, turn into the spirit of
(14:41):
anger that lingers with you andmanifest at the most unfortunate
times and manifest at the mostunfortunate times.
So when we don't help survivorsunpack the anger and work
through it, you see things likewhat we call personality begins
to shift and they begin tobecome this other person, this
(15:02):
sarcastic person, this angryperson, this temperamental
person, this person that willcut somebody down, this person
who reacts.
You know, because when you can't, when you're violated and you
you cannot defend yourself, itcauses you to to, to boil, like
(15:23):
how dare you, how could you dothis to me, how could you take
this from me?
And I have no recourse, I can'tdo anything to you.
What you want to do is you wantto last out and defend yourself
.
There are built in defensemechanisms in us.
We have built in defensemechanisms.
When we hear a loud noise, werun.
When we hear a boom, we takeshelter.
(15:46):
If somebody swings at us, weduck.
These are built-in defensemechanisms because we have an
innate proclivity to defendourselves.
So if you are violated and youcan't defend yourself,
everything in you rises up inanger.
And when you don't deal with it, you see things like, for
(16:08):
example, someone who's beenviolated and hasn't dealt with
the anger.
If they're a person of color,maybe they go into a store and
they feel like somebody'sfollowing them because they're a
person of color and suspectsthem of stealing.
Or maybe they get to theregister and the cashier treats
them with some kind of racism.
You see them unleash in thestore and they are loud.
(16:34):
And have you ever experiencedthat?
You know you're in the storeand it's like what happened.
Jemese (16:39):
What is that about?
It's really going on.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (16:42):
Yes, there is some undealt with anger, some
undealt with anger, and if thatresides in you for years, then
you have the tendency for peopleto characterize you as this
sort of jaded person.
But the real issue isunresolved anger, and I lived
that for years.
I lived that for many, manyyears and it's very, very
(17:05):
dangerous.
And so there's a package, as Isaid.
There's the blame, there's theanger, there's also the shame,
one of the things that Tamar,when she was violated by her
half-brother, she said where canI go?
Where can I hide my face forthis thing that you've done for
(17:26):
me?
Where can I hide?
So shame makes you want to hide.
Right, you feel like everybodyin the room knows your dirty
little secret, but really andtruly the only you know it.
So you, you, you withdraw, youwant to hide.
That's what shame does to aperson.
It causes you to withdraw, itcauses you to want to hide.
Even when you're in, whenyou're surrounded by people, you
(17:47):
want to withdraw, you want tohide.
Even when you're surrounded bypeople, you want to withdraw,
you want to hide.
And I didn't understand whatwas going on with me.
But through the scriptures Igained insight.
God helped me, you know, when Ireally looked at and unpacked
and studied these two biblicalaccounts and the things that
were happening to them.
The other thing that can impactsomeone who's been violated is
(18:10):
soul ties.
In Genesis 34, when Shechemraped Dinah, the Bible says that
after he violated her, his soulclave to Dinah.
And that word clave is the sameword for leave and cleave.
In the context of marriage itliterally means to stick like
(18:32):
glue.
So in the context of marriage,god uses sex to stick the two
people together and the twobecome one flesh.
But outside of the context ofmarriage, that same cleaving
force becomes destructivebecause there's no covenant,
there's no commitment.
So when Shechem raped Dinah,his soul clave to her.
(18:54):
And I understood through thatscripture that when somebody is
sexually assaulted there's anattack of soul time, because
what God intended to be joinedtogether forever, it is ripped
apart.
Now, if you take two pieces ofpaper and you glue them together
, two plain white pieces ofpaper, and you stick them
(19:17):
together with Elmer's glue andyou try to separate them, both
of them are going to be damaged.
Jemese (19:23):
Yes.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (19:24):
No one piece of paper is going to come out
unscathed, and that is whathappens outside of the context
of marriage.
When people have intercourseand there's no commitment and no
covenant, it's like two piecesof paper glued together that you
pull apart.
Both pieces of paper areaffected.
And so all of these things arethings that God revealed and
(19:50):
showed me through the scripture,that were plaguing, that were
attacking, that I needed to dealwith, that I needed to deal
with, and a lot of times peopledon't understand they can carry
these things for years.
Now, even from an occupationalstandpoint, we understand from
the research that rape traumacan persist an average of four
(20:11):
years, and that's if someonegets help.
That's only if someone getshelp.
It can persist an average offour years.
Rape trauma can persist anaverage of four years, and
that's if someone gets help.
Now, if they don't get help, itcan persist a whole lot longer
and a person can walk aroundreally not being able to process
(20:33):
and unpack what's going on withthem.
And this is why I value trainedChristian counselors.
I don't know what your churchbackground is, but there's some
groups of believers who don'tbelieve in counseling.
They believe, you know, youpray, you cast out a devil or
(20:54):
whatever.
I don't disagree with that.
But at the same time, after youdo those things and deal with
those spiritual issues, youstill need strategies to deal
with yourself right.
You still need to be able toprocess what is going on with
you, and that's where counselingcan greatly help the believer.
(21:15):
And I'm from the South, andthere's this whole thing with
African-Americans.
We don't do that.
We don't get counseling whereit used to be.
It's not so much prevalent nowbecause people are changing
their minds about it, but itused to be that.
You know, if you were a personof color, you don't go to
counseling.
Jemese (21:34):
Right, that's for those other people yeah, I actually
even spoke with someone who, um,you know I consider young
person in their 40s who justcame to the awareness that
mental health is a real thing.
Mental health in the Blackcommunity is real.
That's how much that stigma inthe African-American culture was
(21:58):
so prevalent that we don't dothat.
What do you mean?
We don't talk to people aboutour dirty laundry or what
Grandpa Pookie and him did.
We don't talk about that.
And this person is like it'slike god, um, reached them and
said no, no, and they're comingto themselves realizing wow, no,
(22:19):
mental health is a real thingthere's physical health there's
emotional health.
Mental health is a real thing,even in the Black community and
I agree with you we are comingto.
The times are changing a littlebit in the regard that it's not
as taboo anymore.
But you know, it does stillfeel sometimes like we have to
(22:42):
continue the dialogue to make itmore acceptable and common and
just kind of keep that momentthem going, because all people
need help.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (22:55):
Come on now, we all need it and um yeah,
yeah, the thing that the thingthat a lot of people don't
realize is that they're examplesof of mental health issues all
throughout the bible.
I mean samara is one that Ijust said.
She was dealing with shame.
But even the strong people, thepeople we think of as
(23:16):
patriarchs and the mighty men ofthe Bible, have mental health
issues.
Moses at one point said God, ifthis is how you're going to
deal with me, just kill me.
He was suicidal.
Moses was suicidal.
He was asking God to kill him.
This is a mental health issue.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, come on now,you know he was in a very bad
(23:39):
mental state, yeah.
And then Elijah, of course,when uh, uh, jezebel was after
him uh, you know, he had thesame, uh, mental health issue as
well he was like, okay, lord,just take me out of here, just
take me out of here.
So the pressure of ministry isreal.
It's very, very real, and wehave to make sure that our
(24:01):
mental health is as well as ourspiritual health, and I
appreciate that we need both,that we need both, because when
you talk about psychology andpsyche, it is the focus of the
brain, the mind, and how thatimpacts our behavior and the
rest of us.
But we are not just soul, we arespirit as well.
(24:25):
Right, we are body, soul andspirit, and so we need both.
We need to address the spiritand we need to address the mind,
the psyche, which has to dowith the soul, and we need to
address the body.
So I don't think that we can goto either extreme.
We can't go to the extreme thatwe don't need counseling, we
just need some Jesus and we'llbe all right, we just going to
(24:46):
pray it away.
And I don't think we can go tothe other extreme, that dealing
with the psyche is all that weneed as well.
We need all of it.
We need spiritual healing, weneed mental healing, we need
physical health.
We have to be a very balancedpeople, and if the church
(25:06):
doesn't speak about these things, then believers will go to
those who don't understand thespirit for help.
Right, yeah, and to a largeextent, this is what has been
happening.
But we need but we need to be aa balanced people yes, I agree
(25:27):
and I think that there are.
There's insight.
There's insight in thescriptures for both right.
The scriptures are, for thebeliever, the basis of our lives
.
So there's insight for themental in the scriptures,
there's insight for thespiritual in the scriptures,
there's insight for the physicalin the scriptures.
We must be a people who graspthe counsel of God.
(25:49):
He said the spirit of whatCounsel is one of the
manifestations of the HolySpirit, according to Isaiah 60,
61.
So we need to be a people whoembrace that holistic counsel
from the scriptures.
I was listening to somethingearlier today talking about
healing from betrayal inmarriage and about forgiving.
(26:14):
Well, I talk about in my firstbook, breaking the Silence, the
Journey from Rape to Redemption.
That forgiveness is a process.
And who can we look to for that?
We can look to Joseph.
Joseph was favored by his father, had a coat of many colors.
His brothers were mad.
They, you know they didn't likethe fact that.
(26:36):
No, this guy don't have to dono work, we out here in the
fields, and what does he do?
Just in the house with daddy,just, you know, just pulling on
his coat of in colors.
And so they conspired to killhim.
And then one of the brothersspoke up and said we can't kill
him, this is our blood, so let'ssell him.
So they put him in a pit andthen the next day they sold him
(26:57):
into slavery.
Well, he was 17 years old whenthat happened.
He didn't see his brothersagain for 13 years, and we know
that because the scripture tellsus how old he was when he began
to rule in Egypt.
So at least 13 years had passed, uh, from the time that he last
saw them when they showed up inEgypt looking for food because
(27:18):
of the famine.
And what did Joseph do?
He stopped it to them.
He said y'all spies, y'alldidn't come here looking for
food.
Y'all spies, y'all ain'tgetting nothing from up and over
here.
And then the one who wanted tokill him, he said put him in
jail, the rest of y'all.
If y'all really not spies, goget the other brother, but this
one he's spending the night injail.
(27:38):
He's going to stay in jail tilly'all get back.
He was hot, he was still angry.
He had not yet forgiven them,and we know that because of what
he did and the fact that thescripture says that he spoke
very harshly to them.
So Joseph was still processingthat anger.
Jemese (28:02):
And you know what you bring up.
It reminds me of how, oh man,the with a lot of women who will
say I can't believe that allthis is coming up, because
something has triggered them andit's been many years.
But it's like all those sameemotions come back up again and
it's, it's a surprise.
And so even in this testamentand this account in the bible of
(28:23):
joseph, it's such a reminder ofour very human experience.
Those emotions, they have to gosomewhere.
You can't just, you know a lotof people say, well, time heals
all wounds.
No, it doesn't.
You have to deal with theemotion.
You can't just stuff it andexpect that the passage of time
is going to do for you what thetouch of jesus, you know, hit
(28:47):
you.
You surrendering it to Jesus,that's one thing.
I'm actually going to pull upthese emotions, I'm going to
surrender it to you, lord, andI'm going to trust you to help
me through the process of thisanger, in all of this.
But no, people say, well, Iforgive, and they move on.
Oh, I had never thought aboutit in that way, but absolutely
(29:09):
all of those feelings were stillthere with Joseph.
He said no, you're going tostay right here in jail.
Go get that other brother ofmine.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (29:18):
Exactly, he was hot, he was still angry, and
this is this is the danger oftrying to push people to
forgiveness when they haven'tdealt with the anger yet, when
they haven't dealt with theanger yet.
We have to deal with the angerfor the forgiveness to stick,
because part of the role of theHoly Spirit is to convince us of
sin.
And when you are angry, it isdifficult for you to be
(29:39):
convinced that you need toreally that truly be convinced
that you need to forgive someone, because when you are angry,
you are still in that mode ofjustifying your anger.
You're not ready to forgive.
You're still in vengeance mode.
You're still in I can't believeyou did this to me mode.
You're still in where is thejustice in this?
(30:01):
I mean, you're still in adifferent mode altogether.
You're not in the phase toforgive, and so we have to help
people unpack their anger.
And the turnaround for Joseph iswhen he came to a conclusion
and he was convinced.
You see, the Holy Spiritconvinces and you're not
convicted of sin until you'reconvinced that you are sinning.
(30:24):
And most people who are angryare not convinced that they're
sinning.
Most people who are angry feeljustified in their anger until
the Holy Spirit convinces themthat they need to let it go.
And the turnaround point forJoseph was he was convinced that
you meant it for evil, but Godmeant it for good, to save many.
That's when he actually forgavehis brothers and embraced it
(30:44):
and wept.
The scripture says he wept andembraced them.
That's when he actually forgavehis brothers and embraced it
and wept.
The scripture says he wept andembraced them.
That was the turning point forhim when he could see God's hand
in his suffering and God's handand what his brothers did to
him and violated.
When he could see God's hand init, that's when he was
convinced that he could not holdon to the anger any longer
(31:09):
powerful.
That was the turning point.
Yeah, so we have to be able tohelp people unpack the anger and
we have to help survivorsrealize that god is not to blame
.
It is the.
It is the evil, demonicallyinfluenced will of your
perpetrator.
It is not god.
And that is how the account oftamar helped me.
(31:32):
If you read the account oftamar, it says that Amnon was so
vexed he couldn't eat.
He grew lean.
He was in a spiritual or evilspiritual state of obsession.
He was obsessed with her.
And that kind of influence onsomeone to bring them to the
(31:52):
point of obsession is whatdrives someone to violate
somebody.
It's an obsession, it's anobsessive desire for self-grat
them, and so it is not God and alot of times, people who go
(32:17):
through sexual assault.
The big question is why did Godlet this happen to me?
It wasn't God, it was the enemyworking through that person's
will for self-gratitude andpower will for self-gratitude
(32:38):
and power and so we can't blameGod.
I mean, do we blame God whenother things we can't blame him?
So that is something that wehave to work through.
And so Joseph got to the pointwhere he understood I can't be
mad with God for letting thishappen to me.
You meant it for evil.
God didn't mean it for evil.
You guys meant it for evil, notGod.
(32:58):
So he was able to separate thetwo things.
But a lot of times, until weare able to separate the two
things, we remain in anger Angerwith either the perpetrator or
anger with God.
And a lot of times people don'tunderstand that it's okay for
them to admit that they're angrywith God and they have to
process that, they have to dealwith it until they can come to
the point of separating the twothings to understand that God
(33:21):
didn't mean this for evil.
It was the evil influence ordemonically influenced will of
the person, of the perpetrator,and their desire for
self-gratification and power.
But until you can separatethose two things, there will
still be some underlying anger,even if you say, oh, I forgave
them.
Jemese (33:43):
Yeah, because it's more than just words.
Right, I think we want toquickly put our words on it and
say you want to speak life?
And say because we, we know,logically, we know even by the
word of god, that forgiveness iswhat we're told to do.
It's the command he tells us weare to forgive and so we,
wanting to be righteous in thelord, we want, we, we want to
(34:07):
forgive.
But I think a lot of times whatthat is?
It can be almost it's kind of afunny way to say it but it can
be almost like weaponized, theenemy will pervert that or even
our own will will twist that upto just okay, well, I forgive, I
forgive, but you're really just, you're really just stuffing it
some more so that it can pop upagain in six months or when
(34:31):
you're in that new relationshipor you know.
My question for you would beand and and the work that you've
done with, with other otherpeople and even in yourself.
How do you get to the pointwhere you can separate it, like
you were discussing?
How does a person actually getthere where you can actually
(34:53):
separate it and say, okay, thatwas not God, that was that
wicked act, or even have thespiritual eyes to say I know,
that was the devil, that was thedevil, but this was not God.
You know, how do you get therewhen you're in the thick of that
heavy emotion, how do you getthere?
(35:14):
when you're in the thick of thatheavy emotion.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (35:15):
Well, one of the things that I would say is
that for me personally, it wasnot until I initiated I wouldn't
say initiated, but it wasn'tuntil I really started my
formation and began to grow inGod in my relationship with him,
that I could separate those twothings.
So what usually happens is theenemy wants you to run away from
(35:41):
God when you should be runningto him.
And fortunately, god was longsuffering with me and very, very
patient with me, and as I beganto grow in my relationship and
fellowship with him, he began towork some of those things out
of me and he began to help me tosee that I didn't have to put
pressure on myself, thatforgiveness was a process.
And the same way we go fromfaith to faith to glory to glory
(36:04):
, we go from one level offorgiveness to another level of
forgiveness.
It's not instant.
It's not instant.
You know, we keep on confessingforgiveness, we keep on having
a commitment to forgiveness, butwhat we have to do to help
people is to remove the pressurefor that to happen overnight.
(36:24):
And that's what God did for me.
He removed the pressure forthat when he showed me Joseph,
and he also showed me thatJoseph could not come to the
place of separating that untilhe entered a certain level of
his destiny.
You see, he had to be in thepalace to be able to do that,
because his place in the palacehelped him to see that this is
(36:48):
where God intended me to be.
Sometimes, trauma in life is thestepping stone to take us to
the palace, but it's difficultfor us to comprehend that in our
minds, his ways are higher thanour ways and his thoughts are
higher than our thoughts.
And so when I began to get to acertain level in my destiny,
then I could understand that, oh, the enemy was trying to
(37:12):
silence my voice.
It's not that I did anythingwrong, it's not that God was
doing it.
The enemy was trying to keep mesilent in shame, in rejection,
because God has called me to bea great voice.
And until you get to a certainlevel in your destiny, you won't
be able to separate those twothings.
(37:33):
For some people, they have aninkling.
They have this inkling thatthey're destined for something
great, that there's somethinggreater on the inside of them,
but because they are wrestlingwith shame, wrestling with
rejection, they never embrace itfully.
And this is what the enemyactually wants to accomplish by
violating someone or by gettingsomeone crippled, through being
(37:55):
molested, fondled, raped orsevere betrayal, divorce.
You know all of those thingsthe enemy.
What he wants to do is to takea foothold in that and cripple
you from embracing who God saysthat you are and the assignment
that God has for your life.
And so, as I begin to see moreand more inklings of my destiny,
(38:15):
I was able to separate thosethings more and more and
understand that that definitelywasn't God, because God has
called me to be a voice.
And then, further down thetimeline, I began to see that
God could take that thing andturn it into a platform to heal
others.
It is only God who can takeyour pain and turn it into a
(38:37):
platform to help others and healothers.
God never puts more on us thanwe can bear if we can cling to
him.
But you see what the enemytries to lock us down.
And I say you know in thatfirst book that the enemy puts
the greatest effort intosilencing the greatest voices.
(38:59):
So if he has targeted someoneto be attacked, to be assaulted,
nine times out of 10, they arecalled to be a great voice.
But it's difficult to separatethat until, as I said, said you
get to a certain point in yourdestiny yeah so what we have to
do as counselors and pastors andand coaches, is to help people,
(39:21):
uh to to move along and toidentify the greatness in them,
so that they understand thatthat is actually what the enemy
is after.
He's after the greatness in you, and that's what helped me to
(39:42):
separate the two, because I wasable to eventually, along the
way, point to the things thatGod had put in me to be a great
voice.
Jemese (39:46):
Yes, praise God.
And it's almost like knowingthat you can look back at your
past and say, oh, and it'salmost like, I think, when we
approach it, just like youshared, it's almost like it
takes the power away frombecause, going all the way back
to the beginning of your story,when you said the shame was you
(40:06):
were, you were young and thatshame was already trying to
creep and that rejection was atthe door knocking.
You know, you can see the, youcan see the plan and the purpose
way back then you know itstarted when you were too small
to even understand any of this.
That's when it started, but thelord, just like joseph, the lord
(40:28):
meant it for good.
That's right the lord took thatthing and he turned it for good,
and that is just so powerful.
It makes you want to shout, itmakes you want to.
You know Hallelujah.
Yes, it does, because there'sjust no power.
And what I'm essentiallyhearing you say also is you have
(40:49):
to put your focus on the rightplace.
We're not acting like it didn'thappen, we're not denying it,
we're not shoving it under therug, but we are locking eyes
right on Jesus.
He said don't look to the rightor to the left.
(41:10):
You put your focus back on him.
You have to spend time with himto know who he really is, to
know his character, to know hisnature, and when you do that, it
helps you to take your eyes offfrom these evils.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (41:25):
Yes.
Jemese (41:26):
And put them right on the Lord, who is love, who is
good, and you know, it's just sopowerful yeah, yeah, yeah, but
you, and it is so true.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (41:38):
I will also say at at 20, I couldn't see it.
I mean, at 20 years old, Icouldn't see it.
It took some time, it did.
It took some time.
But if you think about it, what?
What happened, even to Jesus?
The Bible says that Herod wastroubled over a little baby boy.
(41:58):
Why?
Because he saw the greatness.
The Bible says that the wisemen, they saw his star.
You see, and sometimes thereare things that the enemy can
see about us that we can't seeabout ourselves.
There's sometimes greatness inus that the enemy can see about
us that we can't see aboutourselves.
There's sometimes greatness inus that the enemy sees and we
(42:19):
don't see it.
So, at a baby, a whole king.
Now Herod is king of a wholekingdom, but he's intimidated by
a little baby boy to the extentthat he wants to kill all the
boys under two years old.
What intimidates a king to dothat?
It is greatness, it is theGod-given greatness.
I'm not saying that in anyprideful way, but God endows us
(42:41):
with greatness, he crowns uswith glory and honor.
The scripture says it.
And so, even for Jesus, he wastargeted because of his future
greatness and the potential thatwas on the inside of him.
So I want women to know womenthat are listening that if
you've gone through somethingthat has sought or tried to
cripple you, to cripple yourconfidence, to make you ashamed,
(43:04):
to make you withdraw, to makeyou hide, don't give in to it.
There is greatness on theinside of you.
God has placed in each of ushis own piece of his own
multifaceted grace, and you'vebeen endowed with a piece of his
multifaceted grace and thatmeans that there's greatness on
the inside of you.
(43:25):
Whatever is trying to make youfeel like you need to hide, like
you can't show your face, likeyou can't shine, like you can't
be all that you're called to be,it is not from God and you can
overcome it.
You can overcome it.
The enemy meant it for evil,but God meant it for good, to
help you to see that there'ssomething greater in you.
(43:46):
You can rise above it.
You can be healed.
If God did it for me, he can doit for you.
It's a process.
I'm not saying it's going to bea cakewalk.
It's going to be easy, but itcan be done.
We are more than conquerors.
There is an overcomer in you.
There is a conqueror in you.
Jemese (44:04):
Glory to God.
Thank you so much.
First of all, I want to saythank you for your transparency.
This is just so powerful.
As we close out, would you prayfor our listeners, however the
Lord leads you, and then we'llshare where listeners can find
you if they want to connect.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (44:21):
Amen, father , we thank you so much.
You are hallowed, you are holy,you are God, you are the King
of all kings, ancient of days.
We come to you in the name ofJesus.
We pray for the listeningaudience today.
The Father that you, oh God,you would make the difference.
We thank you, father, that youare God that heals.
You said you are the God thathealeth thee, and so I pray for
(44:44):
healing in the lives of everylistener in the name of Jesus.
Healing from emotional wounds,healing from spiritual wounds,
healing from blame, from shame,from rejection, from soul ties,
from anything that wants to keepthem in hiding and keep them,
father, from being all that youhave called them to be.
(45:06):
We speak to that thing rightnow and we say let it be
uprooted.
In the name of Jesus, we speakinto the lives of the listeners
that we speak to that greatness,we speak to the destiny, we
speak to the assignment, theplan and the purpose that you
have for them and we declare letit come forth.
In the name of Jesus.
We thank you, lord, that youare God that binds up the wounds
(45:28):
of the brokenhearted.
And right now, in the name ofJesus, we release that healing
power, that balm of Gilead tobind up the wounds of any
brokenhearted person that islistening, anybody that's been
betrayed, assaulted, violated.
In the name of Jesus, thank you, lord.
We release that healing now andwe thank you, father, that
there shall be testimonies.
(45:48):
We thank you, lord, that theyare being empowered now to get
up, to try again, to seek outthe help that they need and to
become all that you have calledthem to be.
We command destiny to awaken.
We command purpose to awaken.
We say rise from the ashes andrun and be everything that God
(46:08):
has called you to be.
In the mighty name of Jesus, weagree and say amen.
Jemese (46:15):
Amen, amen, amen.
Thank you so much.
How can our listeners find youonline and connect with you if
they want to check out more ofyour books?
Tell us where we could findthat.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (46:28):
Well, the fastest way is just to go to the
website lenitarevesorgL-E-N-I-T-A-R-E-E-V-E-SO-R-G.
That's the fastest way.
It's my website and then allthe social media handles are at
Pastor Lenita.
That's all the social mediasYouTube, facebook, instagram,
tiktok is at Pastor Lenita.
Jemese (46:51):
Okay, and I will have all of those links in the show
notes or in the description forthis episode.
This was just so awesome thankyou so much.
Rev. Lenita Reeves (47:01):
Yes, thank you thank you.
Jemese (47:03):
That's a wrap for another episode.
As always, I appreciate you somuch for tuning in week after
week.
If you have a testimony forjesus that you know the world
needs to hear, reach out to meat anewcreationpodcastcom or,
better yet, go and find me on mysocials.
I'm on pretty much all socialmedia platforms at Jameice
(47:25):
Lachelle.
That's the best way to connectwith me.
All that information is in theshow notes.
I will see you in the nextepisode.
May God bless you and keep youuntil we meet again.
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