January 27, 2025 • 23 mins
Discover how to achieve the perfect blend of design, performance and affordability in home building with insights from Dan Kolbert, co-author of “Pretty Good House: A Guide to Creating Better Homes.” Explore the concept of the “Pretty Good House.” A practical alternative to pursuing home certifications like Passive House, LEED, and Energy Star. Learn how this approach, originating from a building science group in Portland, Maine, defines sustainable building by not only the construction details but also on other crucial aspects like house size and budget constraints, offering a balanced framework for better homes.
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Episode Transcript
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Alison Keay (00:03):
welcome back to a new era of home building, where
we explore sustainable homebuilding, high performance
design, innovative off siteconstruction and groundbreaking
practices that are transformingthe home building industry. This
podcast is produced bybensonwood.
Thank you for listening toanother episode of a new era of
home building. I'm your host.
Allison Kay, Sales Lead at Unityhomes,
Mark Hertzler (00:25):
and I'm your co host. Mark Hertzler, Director of
unity homes. Today we aretalking with Dan Colbert of
Colbert building. Dan is anexperienced builder from
Southern Maine and co author ofthe book, pretty good house, a
guide to creating better homes.
Dan wrote this book alongsideEmily macram, Michael Maines and
Christopher Briley, a prettygood house is associated with a
(00:46):
whole idea around looking atdesign, high performance,
building science as well asbudget to create the pretty good
house. So Dan, thanks forjoining us today.
Dan Kolbert (00:58):
Thank you for having me
Mark Hertzler (00:59):
So Dan, in a previous episode, we talked
about certifications, thingssuch as passive house, LEED
ENERGY STAR, and in some cases,there may be some rebates or
incentives associated with thosehome certifications. But in your
book, you specify that prettygood house isn't a
certification, but it takes alot of the same concept. So tell
(01:23):
us about the general idea of apretty good house and what to
trying to do that thecertifications are not doing.
Dan Kolbert (01:31):
Yeah. So a brief history. We've had a building
science discussion group inPortland Maine for It started
about 15 years ago, and in asession about a decade ago,
maybe, you know, we always comeup with an idea at the last
minute and send out an emailblast. And one of them was that,
you know, this was right aroundthe time when I think Passive
(01:53):
House certification was gettingvery big in New England, and I
was just trying to think aboutcertification systems and my
experiences with them. And Isaid, Well, what if you just
want to build a pretty goodhouse? And that was the title of
the title of the session. We hada great conversation. And then
Mike mains wrote it up for greenbuilding advisor. And there was
a fantastic conversation there,you know. And it was one of
those stupid lines that justsort of hit the zeitgeist,
(02:13):
right? You know, just becamesort of shorthand for me. I
don't really know people use itfor shorthand for all sorts of
things, which is one of thedownsides of it, I guess. Which
is why? Which is why? When youwere earlier calling it a
movement before we started, itmakes me nervous, because, if
anything, it's sort of an antimovement. So our response
certifications is complicated. Ithink we all I'm not passive
(02:36):
house certified, but the otherthree are, or have been in the
past. I am very involved withour local passive house. You
know, we have a non profitPassive House main that does a
lot of great educational stuff,and I'm very involved in those
classes. I think Passive Houseis wonderful. I think leads for
home did a huge job. You know, Idon't know if you guys are old
(02:57):
enough to remember, but, youknow, when we from first came
out, we thought, well, maybethis is the thing that's finally
going to break through to themainstream and actually, you
know, have an impact on themarket. It didn't really quite
get there, but it certainlyhelped move things forward. All
the certification systems do agreat job of saying, This is
what's important, you know,focus on these things. So one
(03:18):
thing is just that it add costs,right? I, you know, been to
passive house conferences wherebasically presenter after
presenter would say, Yeah, thishouse would have been certified,
but we didn't want to spend themoney on it. So, so that's part
of it. The other is, you know,sometimes what they focus on is
wrong. I think, like the factthat with pretty much every
(03:39):
certification system, there's nopenalty for big right? In fact,
it's easier to hit a lot ofthese numbers, a lot of the
target numbers with a biggervolume than a smaller volume.
And so that was one, you know,that's one thing we stress a lot
in the book, is size, and thenanother thing is cost, right?
None of these talk about money,particularly, and that's a huge
issue. You know, I am justconsistently blown away by what
(04:03):
I have to charge and, you know,certainly since COVID, but even
before that, just how expensiveit all is. So to pretend like
that's not a limiting factor. Topretend like that, you know, it
just means whatever we'rebuilding a luxury product,
right? And to pretend otherwise,I think, is dishonest, and I
think that it prevents us fromlooking at it and actually
(04:25):
trying to move in a differentdirection. I will say, also,
it's also, you know, I'msomebody who builds single
family homes. I think the mostexciting path of house stuff is
in the multi family market. I'mconsistent. I'm just knocked out
by by what they're able toachieve in multi family. So
that's the short version,
Mark Hertzler (04:42):
and that's an interesting observation about
the size, and that is one thingthat kind of comes out in the
book is not only a pretty goodHouse is looking at the
performance, but it's looking atthe design and the overall
impact. And so I think that thatcomment there about the size
that to the certification. Andit doesn't really matter. And
like you said, it's almost, it'seasier to get a blower door
(05:04):
number with a bigger house thanit is a small house.
Dan Kolbert (05:07):
That's why we set, you know. I mean, that's why we
cut, you know, our targets. Idon't even, I can't even
remember if we put a blower doortarget in the book, but, I mean,
I do blower door tests. I thinkthey're great, but I don't
really care that much about mynumber. I mean, I care if it was
three or four or something, butif I hit two or one and a half
or one, I'm perfectly content. Ijust don't see that. I don't see
(05:29):
the evidence that there's asignificant performance
difference once you get down toa certain level. So anyway, I
think some of these targetnumbers don't help us. I guess
the other thing I'd say is just,you know, I am worried as these
things do gain acceptance, andespecially now that they're in
the code, I am nervous about howhomes are going to get built if
people don't understand thescience, right? And I think
(05:52):
that, well, I'm sure I don'tneed to tell you guys, you know,
a tight but poorly built houseshas a good chance of rotting out
very quickly. So if you justsort of hitting the numbers in
the energy code without reallyunderstanding why you're doing
it, that's counterproductive.
That was an impetus for the bookas well. Was to say, All right,
(06:12):
this is the basic buildingscience that you, as designer, a
contractor, or particularly ahomeowner, need to understand,
and if you if you want to builda good house.
Alison Keay (06:23):
Another thing that I enjoyed about the book is that
it's educating on the importanceof that integrated team. And you
know, so everyone in your teamshould have that level of infirm
of knowledge, rather and theteam approach. So you're how
you're bringing together anumber of different people that
are bringing their ownexpertise, but this general
understanding of what'simportant to get right in the
(06:44):
project.
Dan Kolbert (06:45):
Yeah, and I think that, like, right? Like, I mean,
Unity homes obviously, is sortof front loaded all that, right?
They've sort of the BuildingSciences is, is baked into the
product. But if you're doing acustom project, then, yeah, you
need to, you need to get on thesame page early in the process.
Building Science goals need tobe part of the design process,
Mark Hertzler (07:04):
right? Yeah. And I think another, as Allison
touched on, the good thing aboutthe book is that the educational
aspect of it. So as youmentioned, Unity homes, we sort
of front load that buildingscience, but having people
understand the why behind that,even though it's not going to
change how we build it. It'sgoing to change how they live in
(07:25):
that house, you know, goingforward as well, understanding
about the air movement, aboutthe moisture management, and
those sorts of things. Sowhether someone is kind of DIY a
little bit, and they want toknow what they're doing, or they
just want to know, okay, thishigh performance house that I'm
living in, it's important tojust understand that why
Alison Keay (07:43):
it also plays into their ability to see value in
high performance and not have itlooked at as something that
costs extra, that it's actuallypaying for itself over time.
It's paying for comfort. It'spaying for durability and
resilience, and separating thatfrom this idea that I need the
largest house I can get for thelowest cost, the there, really,
(08:08):
we're looking at a market shiftin that everything else that we
want quality in, like our goodsor our services that we that we
look for. We're looking for highquality. And this book, I think,
helps identify what quality isalso for people and where they
should be spending their moneyin lieu of square footage.
Dan Kolbert (08:27):
Yeah, right. I think people often, especially,
you know, people often justthrow square footage rather than
solving a design problem, theyjust throw more square footage
in. We could do several episodeson my thoughts on what's wrong
with housing market in the US.
But let's just say that I thinkhousing is wealth is a terrible,
terrible model, you know. And Ithink that the numbers on length
of home ownership seem to beshifting, which is good too.
Mark Hertzler (08:50):
Yeah, we're seeing that shift as well, which
is a good thing. And just wantto circle back so something you
said in the beginning about thecertifications, tying that in
with with the cost. So there isa cost to that certification,
and some people may want thatbecause it's verification that
their house was built to whatthey were expecting. But I
(09:11):
guess, really, the point of thepretty good house is that you
can still get that kind of highperformance without having to
pay that extra for either forthe certifications or, you know,
something specific that thatparticular organization is
looking for. And so that'sreally where it's at, is, how
can we maximize or, or, youknow, optimize this design to be
(09:37):
a high performing house, but notcost a fortune?
Dan Kolbert (09:40):
Emily wrote a whole chapter in the book on, you
know, commissioning andverification. I mean, we never,
we would never want todiscourage anyone from third
party verification, especially,you know, with mechanical
systems or whatever,commissioning is critically
important.
Mark Hertzler (09:56):
So in your experience, putting together. A
team. So you're you're one partof the team as the builder, and
I imagine you work with, youknow, designers and architects
and trades, giving advice tosomeone who's looking to build
their house. How do they pulltogether a good team and where
areas that are really importantand areas that they need to make
(10:17):
sure they don't overlook?
Dan Kolbert (10:18):
Man, yeah, that's a tough one, right? Because you
won't know. I mean, one thingthat we've been doing for the
last several years is a moreformal pre con process where we,
you know, we actually charge forthe service, which we didn't
used to do. And one of thethings I tell my clients is
that, you know, it's a good theprocess is valuable, but it's
(10:38):
also will give us a chance todate before we get married. You
have to find people you trust.
And I don't know how to do that.
I think if you look at theirprojects, I mean, even
references are good, but nocontractor is going to give you
the name of people they haveproblems with. I don't have any
brilliant advice other than tolook at their previous work. I
mean, when I was younger, I workwith more experienced
architects. Now that I'm older,I have had several experiences
(11:01):
where architects have approachedus because they wanted, you
know, they wanted to enter thatbetter building market. And so
the design side and the buildside don't have to have equal
levels of experience,necessarily, but they need to be
on board with it, right? If one,I mean, there's certainly plenty
of builders out there who anarchitect will approach with
these plans, and then, you know,they'll just undermine it every
(11:23):
opportunity, right, like ignorecritical details and just say
we're not doing it or whatever.
So they need to be on board,particularly the builder. I
mean, architects, I think ingeneral, are more on board with
this stuff, at least in theory,if not in practice.
Alison Keay (11:38):
Yeah, it sounds like we give similar advice. It
really personality and trust isa big part of building the right
team. I
Mark Hertzler (11:46):
think we're seeing a much greater awareness
among builders and generalcontractors about high
performance than we used to. Westill run into, you know, some
that don't really have anunderstanding and aren't that
interested, but, but I wouldsay, in general, most people are
becoming at the very least,they're interested, if they're
not much more aware of buildingscience and the importance of
(12:08):
it, there's a quote in the bookthat I want to read. It said
comfort and performance areclosely linked. A big part of
what makes a high performancehouse successful is that it's
comfortable to live in. So aswe're talking about the pretty
good house. And you know what?
What goes in there, pretty goodhouse. Can you just talk a
little bit about that, thatcomfort and performance? And
what are the key aspects in apretty good house to getting
(12:31):
that comfort and performance?
Dan Kolbert (12:35):
Yeah, so one of the things you know that I'm sure
you guys talk about as well isis air sealing is sort of the
most critical piece of it all.
We, we did not come up with thisidea. I don't know who did. But
anyway, this idea of, sort oftalking about the four control
layers that we use in the book,you know, air control, thermal
control, vapor control and bulkwater or weather control, right?
(12:56):
And that we found, is a reallygreat entree into talking about
building science. It's somethingthat everybody can understand
and and it really does get you along way toward understanding
the things you need tounderstand that. You know,
there's a story I often tellabout job. I had some clients
I'd done some renovation workfor, and they asked me after
(13:18):
that to to insulate their attic.
And I hired an insulationcontractor, and he came and put,
you know, put Lucille cellulosein their unfinished attic, and
and I get a call, like, thefirst cold day that winter that
I get this freaked out call formy clients about how it was
snowing inside of their attic.
So I ran over there, and sureenough, there were all these air
crystals floating, you know, asI'm sure you guys can guess, the
(13:40):
issue was that this guy had notdone any air sealing, so the
same amount of moisture asalways, was passing from the
inside of the house up into theattic, but without all the heat
escaping with it as well, it wasall condensing to ice in the
attic and then floating on hisice crystals. So to you know, so
that's just a good illustrationof what happens. And you know,
(14:01):
it happens all year round. Ifyou don't air seal, there's all
that vapor transport, and then
Mark Hertzler (14:08):
with that indoor or the air tightness, you can
control the indoor air qualitymuch better, which, you know,
makes it a healthy environmentas
Dan Kolbert (14:16):
well, right? So those of us in northern New
England, obviously, you know,drafts are a big issue. So I
think that's the so between thatand air quality, those, I think
are typically the big comfortissues we're talking
Mark Hertzler (14:28):
so you talked about those, those four layers,
the thermal, the air, themoisture, the bulk water. And
then we talked a little bit inthe beginning about, you know,
design choices that help add tothe overall pretty good house.
Another quote from the book thatI wanted to just touch on says
Every house is ultimately astudy in compromise. How many of
(14:50):
your priorities can you fit inyour budget? What are you
willing to sacrifice? And that,I think it's a tough thing for
people to accept when they.
Start building house, becausemany people are thinking, this
is my dream house, or this is myforever house. I wanted to have
everything, but there'simplications to you know, you
can't have everything. So how doyou manage those conversations
(15:10):
with clients, and how do youhelp them navigate picking
between priorities we
Dan Kolbert (15:16):
had in our in our building science discussion
group years ago, we had asession on selling high
performance, and we had a greatconversation. And sort of, at
the end of it, the one thingthat we all seem to sort of
agree on as a good idea was justtake the shell off the table.
Basically, you know, the shellis ours. You don't, you know, we
we presented to you as apackage. You don't get to touch
(15:38):
it, right?
Alison Keay (15:39):
If you're interested in high performance.
Here's how we're going todeliver high performance, and
it's in that building shell, andthat's it. You
Dan Kolbert (15:47):
can pick your kitchen, you can pick your
flooring, you can pick, youknow, the size of your windows
if you want. You can pick allsorts of things, but the shell
design is off limits fornegotiation. If you want us to
build a house that is going toperform like you want it to,
then you need to trust us to putthis together, right? And
Alison Keay (16:05):
that's the last place where you want to be
influenced by budget cuts.
Dan Kolbert (16:10):
And that's an argument you make too, right?
That that you're not going toget short of something horrible
happened to the house. You'renot going to get another chance
to insulate it, for instance,right? And
Mark Hertzler (16:21):
you can always replace the kitchen at some
point, but you can't replaceyour the envelope of your house.
Alison Keay (16:28):
I think that that one thing that I've identified
about pretty good house is thatit implements the idea of budget
a lot more, like you said,earlier than any certification
programs and things like that,and does provide a little bit of
guidance on how to think throughthat?
Dan Kolbert (16:44):
Yeah? And I think that, I mean, I kind of like the
way that money is one of thedials you have to turn when
you're doing a House Project, abig mistake not to talk about
money often and frequently.
Mark Hertzler (16:55):
Yeah? And it's just a reality for most of us
that you know, the budget is adriving factor. It's going
Alison Keay (17:01):
to be a shock either way. So let's focus the
identify, I think priorities,about space, types, esthetics,
things like that, and notcompromise on the things that
are ultimately the long terminvestment of the building
envelope. Yeah.
Dan Kolbert (17:18):
And I think, you know, in the pre construction
process, I think that's wherethe contractor really has an
important role to play, becausethey can say, we got a choice
here, which road are we goingdown, even if you don't have a
number that you can put out, youcan say, this one's going to be
more expensive than that one.
And maybe the client doesn'tcare. Maybe the designer doesn't
care, particularly which waythey go, but knowing that one is
(17:39):
pricier than the other willhelp,
Alison Keay (17:42):
and that is something that designers and
homeowners don't know.
Dan Kolbert (17:46):
Yeah, it's not their it's not their job to know
that stuff. So if you'represented with a set of plans,
and it's only then that you canhave input on choices, that's,
you know, that's a lot of moneydown the drain because they come
up with a number, the clientwill be so dispirited and to
give up,
Alison Keay (18:01):
yeah, and the integrated team process involves
everybody a lot earlier to tryto avoid things like that. So
we've had a lot of clients thatcome to unity homes after
they've paid an architect todesign a custom home that ended
up being too much, but theydon't know that it costs too
much until they have theirbuilder price it because the
builder wasn't involved in anyof the design considerations
(18:24):
early on. So that integratedteam pays off there as well.
Dan Kolbert (18:29):
I mean, we're definitely, we're thinking about
a lot of audiences, buthomeowners were certainly, you
know, a big part of the peopleare thinking about building. I
wrote a whole article forJournal of like construction
years ago, on on why I thoughtcompetitive bidding didn't
didn't get anyone what theythought they were getting. If
you're so concerned that yourcontract is going to rip you
off, unless you're get two otherbids, then you may not be the
(18:49):
right person to be building ahouse in the first place.
Mark Hertzler (18:52):
Yeah, that's a really good point, and that
trust is so important. Buildingthe trust with the team and
knowing that they have your bestinterests in mind,
Dan Kolbert (19:01):
right? It's early enough in the process. These
bids are going to have norelation to reality or each
other. So how do you make aninformed decision? There's some
line in the book about you knowyour choice is either to budget
to a design or design to abudget. Kind
Alison Keay (19:15):
of on that on that thread, what would your advice
be to an owner who is interestedin G seeing their own project.
Dan Kolbert (19:23):
I, you know, it's possible. I mean, I'm not
particularly courageous, butI've been a contractor for a
long time before I built ahouse, and, you know, even then,
it was probably overwhelming. Ifyou're an incredibly organized
person, you could probably getit done
Alison Keay (19:36):
and with lots of free time.
Dan Kolbert (19:37):
Yes, right? No, it absolutely it's a full time job
Alison Keay (19:40):
and timeline. It greatly affects the timeline.
There's no way you know you canaccomplish that in the timeline
that a general contractor couldprobably. Is
Mark Hertzler (19:50):
there anything else that we haven't touched on
that you want us to know, or youwant the audience to know about
a pretty good house? Or ifpeople are thinking about
starting this journey, whatshould they. Think about, I
guess I just
Dan Kolbert (20:01):
say that, you know, there's a lot of great
information out there. One ofthe nice things about building
science, people can discuss it.
It's not it's not likediscussing, you know, particle
physics or something. It'ssomething that that people with
a relatively low level ofexperience can have an
intelligent conversation on.
Alison Keay (20:18):
I said earlier, if somebody is interested in a
comfortable home, and who isn'tinterested in a comfort,
comfortable home, that'severyone's goal. Then you should
be interested in highperformance.
Dan Kolbert (20:29):
Yeah, there's just no downside. It's not like
you're sacrificing anything.
Mark Hertzler (20:33):
Yeah, we find the people that are coming to us are
better educated. They've alreadydone a lot of research. As you
said, there's a lot of goodinformation out there and there
is some bad information, but Ido feel like it's sort of coming
together, that there's there'sless bad information, and
there's coming a little bit moreconsensus on the good
(20:54):
information. There's stillmultiple ways to get from point
A to point B, but everyone's,you know, trying to get to the
same place their understandingthe building science behind it.
And, you know, we have a lot ofgood conversations with with
clients that are said, Well,I've heard about this, or, you
know, I'm thinking about doingthat, and we can walk them
through and explain, Well,here's why we do it the way that
(21:15):
we do it, and here's thebuilding science behind it. And
so there's a lot of goodconversations happening out
there, and
Alison Keay (21:21):
we've made many a New Englander a fan of slab on
grade, which is something that alot of people come to the table
misunderstanding how and theappropriate way to do that, and
if we can do it so. And one
Dan Kolbert (21:36):
thing that's been gratifying I said before that, I
involved with our passion housegroup, and they have this
fantastic class they've beenoffering for a couple of years.
And the basic, the basic premiseof the class, is that, with the
new energy COVID, passive houseis basically code compliance in
a box, right? That if you builda passive house, you're sort of,
you know, it's a prescriptiveway to build a house that
(21:59):
definitely will pass energy codeand will be safe, safely passing
it. You know, when they willhave hit the building science
piece of that, and you won'thave to worry about the house.
And when I've, I've taught itmultiple times at this point,
and we often have code officersattending, which I think is
great. I mean, they need to seeuse but so it's good for them
(22:20):
too. But I just think it's it'snice that they're coming and
they're genuinely interested inthe subject, so that gives me
some hope.
Alison Keay (22:27):
Well, thank you for coming on our podcast. And we
always like to offer people away to find more about the
pretty good house. So how mightthey do that? We have
Dan Kolbert (22:41):
a website. It's pretty goodhouse.org. We have an
Instagram account. And I wouldalso just say, you know, you
have to pay to get to it. Butgreen building laser, you know,
a lot of the conversationsaround pretty good house
happened there. So I think ifyou're interested in building a
house, it's money well spent.
Alison Keay (22:58):
That's an excellent resource.
Mark Hertzler (22:59):
It is. And if anybody's interested in reading
the book, they can pick it upanywhere that you buy books. All
right, thanks, Dan, I appreciateyou taking some busy time out of
your day and talking with us.
Dan Kolbert (23:10):
You're very welcome.
Alison Keay (23:11):
Thanks for listening to this episode of a
new era of home building. Ifyou're passionate about high
performance homes like we are,be sure to leave a review and
subscribe to our podcast. Youcan also visit bensonwood.com to
learn more about our upcomingevents. Subscribe to our
newsletter. Check out our homeplans and get in touch. Thanks
to George Peavy, Jason Rhemerand Josh Rhemer of Bensonwood's
(23:32):
own Plumb Gable Band for themusic you hear on the podcast.
We hope you enjoyed thisepisode. Until next time, here's
to better building.
welcome back to a new era of home building, where
we explore sustainable homebuilding, high performance
design, innovative off siteconstruction and groundbreaking
practices that are transformingthe home building industry. This
podcast is produced bybensonwood.
Thank you for listening toanother episode of a new era of
home building. I'm your host.
Allison Kay, Sales Lead at Unityhomes,
Mark Hertzler (00:25):
and I'm your co host. Mark Hertzler, Director of
unity homes. Today we aretalking with Dan Colbert of
Colbert building. Dan is anexperienced builder from
Southern Maine and co author ofthe book, pretty good house, a
guide to creating better homes.
Dan wrote this book alongsideEmily macram, Michael Maines and
Christopher Briley, a prettygood house is associated with a
(00:46):
whole idea around looking atdesign, high performance,
building science as well asbudget to create the pretty good
house. So Dan, thanks forjoining us today.
Dan Kolbert (00:58):
Thank you for having me
Mark Hertzler (00:59):
So Dan, in a previous episode, we talked
about certifications, thingssuch as passive house, LEED
ENERGY STAR, and in some cases,there may be some rebates or
incentives associated with thosehome certifications. But in your
book, you specify that prettygood house isn't a
certification, but it takes alot of the same concept. So tell
(01:23):
us about the general idea of apretty good house and what to
trying to do that thecertifications are not doing.
Dan Kolbert (01:31):
Yeah. So a brief history. We've had a building
science discussion group inPortland Maine for It started
about 15 years ago, and in asession about a decade ago,
maybe, you know, we always comeup with an idea at the last
minute and send out an emailblast. And one of them was that,
you know, this was right aroundthe time when I think Passive
(01:53):
House certification was gettingvery big in New England, and I
was just trying to think aboutcertification systems and my
experiences with them. And Isaid, Well, what if you just
want to build a pretty goodhouse? And that was the title of
the title of the session. We hada great conversation. And then
Mike mains wrote it up for greenbuilding advisor. And there was
a fantastic conversation there,you know. And it was one of
those stupid lines that justsort of hit the zeitgeist,
(02:13):
right? You know, just becamesort of shorthand for me. I
don't really know people use itfor shorthand for all sorts of
things, which is one of thedownsides of it, I guess. Which
is why? Which is why? When youwere earlier calling it a
movement before we started, itmakes me nervous, because, if
anything, it's sort of an antimovement. So our response
certifications is complicated. Ithink we all I'm not passive
(02:36):
house certified, but the otherthree are, or have been in the
past. I am very involved withour local passive house. You
know, we have a non profitPassive House main that does a
lot of great educational stuff,and I'm very involved in those
classes. I think Passive Houseis wonderful. I think leads for
home did a huge job. You know, Idon't know if you guys are old
(02:57):
enough to remember, but, youknow, when we from first came
out, we thought, well, maybethis is the thing that's finally
going to break through to themainstream and actually, you
know, have an impact on themarket. It didn't really quite
get there, but it certainlyhelped move things forward. All
the certification systems do agreat job of saying, This is
what's important, you know,focus on these things. So one
(03:18):
thing is just that it add costs,right? I, you know, been to
passive house conferences wherebasically presenter after
presenter would say, Yeah, thishouse would have been certified,
but we didn't want to spend themoney on it. So, so that's part
of it. The other is, you know,sometimes what they focus on is
wrong. I think, like the factthat with pretty much every
(03:39):
certification system, there's nopenalty for big right? In fact,
it's easier to hit a lot ofthese numbers, a lot of the
target numbers with a biggervolume than a smaller volume.
And so that was one, you know,that's one thing we stress a lot
in the book, is size, and thenanother thing is cost, right?
None of these talk about money,particularly, and that's a huge
issue. You know, I am justconsistently blown away by what
(04:03):
I have to charge and, you know,certainly since COVID, but even
before that, just how expensiveit all is. So to pretend like
that's not a limiting factor. Topretend like that, you know, it
just means whatever we'rebuilding a luxury product,
right? And to pretend otherwise,I think, is dishonest, and I
think that it prevents us fromlooking at it and actually
(04:25):
trying to move in a differentdirection. I will say, also,
it's also, you know, I'msomebody who builds single
family homes. I think the mostexciting path of house stuff is
in the multi family market. I'mconsistent. I'm just knocked out
by by what they're able toachieve in multi family. So
that's the short version,
Mark Hertzler (04:42):
and that's an interesting observation about
the size, and that is one thingthat kind of comes out in the
book is not only a pretty goodHouse is looking at the
performance, but it's looking atthe design and the overall
impact. And so I think that thatcomment there about the size
that to the certification. Andit doesn't really matter. And
like you said, it's almost, it'seasier to get a blower door
(05:04):
number with a bigger house thanit is a small house.
Dan Kolbert (05:07):
That's why we set, you know. I mean, that's why we
cut, you know, our targets. Idon't even, I can't even
remember if we put a blower doortarget in the book, but, I mean,
I do blower door tests. I thinkthey're great, but I don't
really care that much about mynumber. I mean, I care if it was
three or four or something, butif I hit two or one and a half
or one, I'm perfectly content. Ijust don't see that. I don't see
(05:29):
the evidence that there's asignificant performance
difference once you get down toa certain level. So anyway, I
think some of these targetnumbers don't help us. I guess
the other thing I'd say is just,you know, I am worried as these
things do gain acceptance, andespecially now that they're in
the code, I am nervous about howhomes are going to get built if
people don't understand thescience, right? And I think
(05:52):
that, well, I'm sure I don'tneed to tell you guys, you know,
a tight but poorly built houseshas a good chance of rotting out
very quickly. So if you justsort of hitting the numbers in
the energy code without reallyunderstanding why you're doing
it, that's counterproductive.
That was an impetus for the bookas well. Was to say, All right,
(06:12):
this is the basic buildingscience that you, as designer, a
contractor, or particularly ahomeowner, need to understand,
and if you if you want to builda good house.
Alison Keay (06:23):
Another thing that I enjoyed about the book is that
it's educating on the importanceof that integrated team. And you
know, so everyone in your teamshould have that level of infirm
of knowledge, rather and theteam approach. So you're how
you're bringing together anumber of different people that
are bringing their ownexpertise, but this general
understanding of what'simportant to get right in the
(06:44):
project.
Dan Kolbert (06:45):
Yeah, and I think that, like, right? Like, I mean,
Unity homes obviously, is sortof front loaded all that, right?
They've sort of the BuildingSciences is, is baked into the
product. But if you're doing acustom project, then, yeah, you
need to, you need to get on thesame page early in the process.
Building Science goals need tobe part of the design process,
Mark Hertzler (07:04):
right? Yeah. And I think another, as Allison
touched on, the good thing aboutthe book is that the educational
aspect of it. So as youmentioned, Unity homes, we sort
of front load that buildingscience, but having people
understand the why behind that,even though it's not going to
change how we build it. It'sgoing to change how they live in
(07:25):
that house, you know, goingforward as well, understanding
about the air movement, aboutthe moisture management, and
those sorts of things. Sowhether someone is kind of DIY a
little bit, and they want toknow what they're doing, or they
just want to know, okay, thishigh performance house that I'm
living in, it's important tojust understand that why
Alison Keay (07:43):
it also plays into their ability to see value in
high performance and not have itlooked at as something that
costs extra, that it's actuallypaying for itself over time.
It's paying for comfort. It'spaying for durability and
resilience, and separating thatfrom this idea that I need the
largest house I can get for thelowest cost, the there, really,
(08:08):
we're looking at a market shiftin that everything else that we
want quality in, like our goodsor our services that we that we
look for. We're looking for highquality. And this book, I think,
helps identify what quality isalso for people and where they
should be spending their moneyin lieu of square footage.
Dan Kolbert (08:27):
Yeah, right. I think people often, especially,
you know, people often justthrow square footage rather than
solving a design problem, theyjust throw more square footage
in. We could do several episodeson my thoughts on what's wrong
with housing market in the US.
But let's just say that I thinkhousing is wealth is a terrible,
terrible model, you know. And Ithink that the numbers on length
of home ownership seem to beshifting, which is good too.
Mark Hertzler (08:50):
Yeah, we're seeing that shift as well, which
is a good thing. And just wantto circle back so something you
said in the beginning about thecertifications, tying that in
with with the cost. So there isa cost to that certification,
and some people may want thatbecause it's verification that
their house was built to whatthey were expecting. But I
(09:11):
guess, really, the point of thepretty good house is that you
can still get that kind of highperformance without having to
pay that extra for either forthe certifications or, you know,
something specific that thatparticular organization is
looking for. And so that'sreally where it's at, is, how
can we maximize or, or, youknow, optimize this design to be
(09:37):
a high performing house, but notcost a fortune?
Dan Kolbert (09:40):
Emily wrote a whole chapter in the book on, you
know, commissioning andverification. I mean, we never,
we would never want todiscourage anyone from third
party verification, especially,you know, with mechanical
systems or whatever,commissioning is critically
important.
Mark Hertzler (09:56):
So in your experience, putting together. A
team. So you're you're one partof the team as the builder, and
I imagine you work with, youknow, designers and architects
and trades, giving advice tosomeone who's looking to build
their house. How do they pulltogether a good team and where
areas that are really importantand areas that they need to make
(10:17):
sure they don't overlook?
Dan Kolbert (10:18):
Man, yeah, that's a tough one, right? Because you
won't know. I mean, one thingthat we've been doing for the
last several years is a moreformal pre con process where we,
you know, we actually charge forthe service, which we didn't
used to do. And one of thethings I tell my clients is
that, you know, it's a good theprocess is valuable, but it's
(10:38):
also will give us a chance todate before we get married. You
have to find people you trust.
And I don't know how to do that.
I think if you look at theirprojects, I mean, even
references are good, but nocontractor is going to give you
the name of people they haveproblems with. I don't have any
brilliant advice other than tolook at their previous work. I
mean, when I was younger, I workwith more experienced
architects. Now that I'm older,I have had several experiences
(11:01):
where architects have approachedus because they wanted, you
know, they wanted to enter thatbetter building market. And so
the design side and the buildside don't have to have equal
levels of experience,necessarily, but they need to be
on board with it, right? If one,I mean, there's certainly plenty
of builders out there who anarchitect will approach with
these plans, and then, you know,they'll just undermine it every
(11:23):
opportunity, right, like ignorecritical details and just say
we're not doing it or whatever.
So they need to be on board,particularly the builder. I
mean, architects, I think ingeneral, are more on board with
this stuff, at least in theory,if not in practice.
Alison Keay (11:38):
Yeah, it sounds like we give similar advice. It
really personality and trust isa big part of building the right
team. I
Mark Hertzler (11:46):
think we're seeing a much greater awareness
among builders and generalcontractors about high
performance than we used to. Westill run into, you know, some
that don't really have anunderstanding and aren't that
interested, but, but I wouldsay, in general, most people are
becoming at the very least,they're interested, if they're
not much more aware of buildingscience and the importance of
(12:08):
it, there's a quote in the bookthat I want to read. It said
comfort and performance areclosely linked. A big part of
what makes a high performancehouse successful is that it's
comfortable to live in. So aswe're talking about the pretty
good house. And you know what?
What goes in there, pretty goodhouse. Can you just talk a
little bit about that, thatcomfort and performance? And
what are the key aspects in apretty good house to getting
(12:31):
that comfort and performance?
Dan Kolbert (12:35):
Yeah, so one of the things you know that I'm sure
you guys talk about as well isis air sealing is sort of the
most critical piece of it all.
We, we did not come up with thisidea. I don't know who did. But
anyway, this idea of, sort oftalking about the four control
layers that we use in the book,you know, air control, thermal
control, vapor control and bulkwater or weather control, right?
(12:56):
And that we found, is a reallygreat entree into talking about
building science. It's somethingthat everybody can understand
and and it really does get you along way toward understanding
the things you need tounderstand that. You know,
there's a story I often tellabout job. I had some clients
I'd done some renovation workfor, and they asked me after
(13:18):
that to to insulate their attic.
And I hired an insulationcontractor, and he came and put,
you know, put Lucille cellulosein their unfinished attic, and
and I get a call, like, thefirst cold day that winter that
I get this freaked out call formy clients about how it was
snowing inside of their attic.
So I ran over there, and sureenough, there were all these air
crystals floating, you know, asI'm sure you guys can guess, the
(13:40):
issue was that this guy had notdone any air sealing, so the
same amount of moisture asalways, was passing from the
inside of the house up into theattic, but without all the heat
escaping with it as well, it wasall condensing to ice in the
attic and then floating on hisice crystals. So to you know, so
that's just a good illustrationof what happens. And you know,
(14:01):
it happens all year round. Ifyou don't air seal, there's all
that vapor transport, and then
Mark Hertzler (14:08):
with that indoor or the air tightness, you can
control the indoor air qualitymuch better, which, you know,
makes it a healthy environmentas
Dan Kolbert (14:16):
well, right? So those of us in northern New
England, obviously, you know,drafts are a big issue. So I
think that's the so between thatand air quality, those, I think
are typically the big comfortissues we're talking
Mark Hertzler (14:28):
so you talked about those, those four layers,
the thermal, the air, themoisture, the bulk water. And
then we talked a little bit inthe beginning about, you know,
design choices that help add tothe overall pretty good house.
Another quote from the book thatI wanted to just touch on says
Every house is ultimately astudy in compromise. How many of
(14:50):
your priorities can you fit inyour budget? What are you
willing to sacrifice? And that,I think it's a tough thing for
people to accept when they.
Start building house, becausemany people are thinking, this
is my dream house, or this is myforever house. I wanted to have
everything, but there'simplications to you know, you
can't have everything. So how doyou manage those conversations
(15:10):
with clients, and how do youhelp them navigate picking
between priorities we
Dan Kolbert (15:16):
had in our in our building science discussion
group years ago, we had asession on selling high
performance, and we had a greatconversation. And sort of, at
the end of it, the one thingthat we all seem to sort of
agree on as a good idea was justtake the shell off the table.
Basically, you know, the shellis ours. You don't, you know, we
we presented to you as apackage. You don't get to touch
(15:38):
it, right?
Alison Keay (15:39):
If you're interested in high performance.
Here's how we're going todeliver high performance, and
it's in that building shell, andthat's it. You
Dan Kolbert (15:47):
can pick your kitchen, you can pick your
flooring, you can pick, youknow, the size of your windows
if you want. You can pick allsorts of things, but the shell
design is off limits fornegotiation. If you want us to
build a house that is going toperform like you want it to,
then you need to trust us to putthis together, right? And
Alison Keay (16:05):
that's the last place where you want to be
influenced by budget cuts.
Dan Kolbert (16:10):
And that's an argument you make too, right?
That that you're not going toget short of something horrible
happened to the house. You'renot going to get another chance
to insulate it, for instance,right? And
Mark Hertzler (16:21):
you can always replace the kitchen at some
point, but you can't replaceyour the envelope of your house.
Alison Keay (16:28):
I think that that one thing that I've identified
about pretty good house is thatit implements the idea of budget
a lot more, like you said,earlier than any certification
programs and things like that,and does provide a little bit of
guidance on how to think throughthat?
Dan Kolbert (16:44):
Yeah? And I think that, I mean, I kind of like the
way that money is one of thedials you have to turn when
you're doing a House Project, abig mistake not to talk about
money often and frequently.
Mark Hertzler (16:55):
Yeah? And it's just a reality for most of us
that you know, the budget is adriving factor. It's going
Alison Keay (17:01):
to be a shock either way. So let's focus the
identify, I think priorities,about space, types, esthetics,
things like that, and notcompromise on the things that
are ultimately the long terminvestment of the building
envelope. Yeah.
Dan Kolbert (17:18):
And I think, you know, in the pre construction
process, I think that's wherethe contractor really has an
important role to play, becausethey can say, we got a choice
here, which road are we goingdown, even if you don't have a
number that you can put out, youcan say, this one's going to be
more expensive than that one.
And maybe the client doesn'tcare. Maybe the designer doesn't
care, particularly which waythey go, but knowing that one is
(17:39):
pricier than the other willhelp,
Alison Keay (17:42):
and that is something that designers and
homeowners don't know.
Dan Kolbert (17:46):
Yeah, it's not their it's not their job to know
that stuff. So if you'represented with a set of plans,
and it's only then that you canhave input on choices, that's,
you know, that's a lot of moneydown the drain because they come
up with a number, the clientwill be so dispirited and to
give up,
Alison Keay (18:01):
yeah, and the integrated team process involves
everybody a lot earlier to tryto avoid things like that. So
we've had a lot of clients thatcome to unity homes after
they've paid an architect todesign a custom home that ended
up being too much, but theydon't know that it costs too
much until they have theirbuilder price it because the
builder wasn't involved in anyof the design considerations
(18:24):
early on. So that integratedteam pays off there as well.
Dan Kolbert (18:29):
I mean, we're definitely, we're thinking about
a lot of audiences, buthomeowners were certainly, you
know, a big part of the peopleare thinking about building. I
wrote a whole article forJournal of like construction
years ago, on on why I thoughtcompetitive bidding didn't
didn't get anyone what theythought they were getting. If
you're so concerned that yourcontract is going to rip you
off, unless you're get two otherbids, then you may not be the
(18:49):
right person to be building ahouse in the first place.
Mark Hertzler (18:52):
Yeah, that's a really good point, and that
trust is so important. Buildingthe trust with the team and
knowing that they have your bestinterests in mind,
Dan Kolbert (19:01):
right? It's early enough in the process. These
bids are going to have norelation to reality or each
other. So how do you make aninformed decision? There's some
line in the book about you knowyour choice is either to budget
to a design or design to abudget. Kind
Alison Keay (19:15):
of on that on that thread, what would your advice
be to an owner who is interestedin G seeing their own project.
Dan Kolbert (19:23):
I, you know, it's possible. I mean, I'm not
particularly courageous, butI've been a contractor for a
long time before I built ahouse, and, you know, even then,
it was probably overwhelming. Ifyou're an incredibly organized
person, you could probably getit done
Alison Keay (19:36):
and with lots of free time.
Dan Kolbert (19:37):
Yes, right? No, it absolutely it's a full time job
Alison Keay (19:40):
and timeline. It greatly affects the timeline.
There's no way you know you canaccomplish that in the timeline
that a general contractor couldprobably. Is
Mark Hertzler (19:50):
there anything else that we haven't touched on
that you want us to know, or youwant the audience to know about
a pretty good house? Or ifpeople are thinking about
starting this journey, whatshould they. Think about, I
guess I just
Dan Kolbert (20:01):
say that, you know, there's a lot of great
information out there. One ofthe nice things about building
science, people can discuss it.
It's not it's not likediscussing, you know, particle
physics or something. It'ssomething that that people with
a relatively low level ofexperience can have an
intelligent conversation on.
Alison Keay (20:18):
I said earlier, if somebody is interested in a
comfortable home, and who isn'tinterested in a comfort,
comfortable home, that'severyone's goal. Then you should
be interested in highperformance.
Dan Kolbert (20:29):
Yeah, there's just no downside. It's not like
you're sacrificing anything.
Mark Hertzler (20:33):
Yeah, we find the people that are coming to us are
better educated. They've alreadydone a lot of research. As you
said, there's a lot of goodinformation out there and there
is some bad information, but Ido feel like it's sort of coming
together, that there's there'sless bad information, and
there's coming a little bit moreconsensus on the good
(20:54):
information. There's stillmultiple ways to get from point
A to point B, but everyone's,you know, trying to get to the
same place their understandingthe building science behind it.
And, you know, we have a lot ofgood conversations with with
clients that are said, Well,I've heard about this, or, you
know, I'm thinking about doingthat, and we can walk them
through and explain, Well,here's why we do it the way that
(21:15):
we do it, and here's thebuilding science behind it. And
so there's a lot of goodconversations happening out
there, and
Alison Keay (21:21):
we've made many a New Englander a fan of slab on
grade, which is something that alot of people come to the table
misunderstanding how and theappropriate way to do that, and
if we can do it so. And one
Dan Kolbert (21:36):
thing that's been gratifying I said before that, I
involved with our passion housegroup, and they have this
fantastic class they've beenoffering for a couple of years.
And the basic, the basic premiseof the class, is that, with the
new energy COVID, passive houseis basically code compliance in
a box, right? That if you builda passive house, you're sort of,
you know, it's a prescriptiveway to build a house that
(21:59):
definitely will pass energy codeand will be safe, safely passing
it. You know, when they willhave hit the building science
piece of that, and you won'thave to worry about the house.
And when I've, I've taught itmultiple times at this point,
and we often have code officersattending, which I think is
great. I mean, they need to seeuse but so it's good for them
(22:20):
too. But I just think it's it'snice that they're coming and
they're genuinely interested inthe subject, so that gives me
some hope.
Alison Keay (22:27):
Well, thank you for coming on our podcast. And we
always like to offer people away to find more about the
pretty good house. So how mightthey do that? We have
Dan Kolbert (22:41):
a website. It's pretty goodhouse.org. We have an
Instagram account. And I wouldalso just say, you know, you
have to pay to get to it. Butgreen building laser, you know,
a lot of the conversationsaround pretty good house
happened there. So I think ifyou're interested in building a
house, it's money well spent.
Alison Keay (22:58):
That's an excellent resource.
Mark Hertzler (22:59):
It is. And if anybody's interested in reading
the book, they can pick it upanywhere that you buy books. All
right, thanks, Dan, I appreciateyou taking some busy time out of
your day and talking with us.
Dan Kolbert (23:10):
You're very welcome.
Alison Keay (23:11):
Thanks for listening to this episode of a
new era of home building. Ifyou're passionate about high
performance homes like we are,be sure to leave a review and
subscribe to our podcast. Youcan also visit bensonwood.com to
learn more about our upcomingevents. Subscribe to our
newsletter. Check out our homeplans and get in touch. Thanks
to George Peavy, Jason Rhemerand Josh Rhemer of Bensonwood's
(23:32):
own Plumb Gable Band for themusic you hear on the podcast.
We hope you enjoyed thisepisode. Until next time, here's
to better building.
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