September 5, 2023 • 42 mins
Picture this: growing up as a queer individual in a small Caribbean country, grappling to understand your identity amidst microaggressions and societal norms. With us today is the remarkable Dr. Kellon Bubb, climate change researcher, LGBTQ+ advocate, and academic who shares his captivating journey of overcoming discrimination and the triumphs of finding a community. He also shares insights and experiences of his life in Grenada, his bold move to the US, and his commitment to making a difference through his work and the enlightening Bubb Report podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Dr Kellan Bubb, a native of Palm Rose, grenada, is
an associate professor ofcommunication studies at
Montgomery College in Rockville,maryland.
He is also a 2021 Yale EdwardBoucher scholar.
The Edward Boucher HonorSociety recognizes outstanding
scholarly achievements amongminority scholars and promotes
diversity and excellence indoctoral education and the
(00:22):
professorate.
Dr Bubb also won a Top PaperAward at the 2021 Eastern
Communication AssociationConference and has represented
Howard University at severalregional and international
conferences.
Dr Bubb is also in the processof co-authoring his first book
titled African Media Industriesin the Era of Digitization and
(00:43):
Globalization, which focuses onAfrican media digitization and
democratization in the 21stcentury.
His doctorate is incommunications, culture and
media studies, with theconcentration in climate change
communication.
His research focusesspecifically on the health
impacts of climate change oncommunities of color and
developing countries in theglobal south.
(01:05):
He uses diverse range ofqualitative and quantitative
research approaches tounderstand how traditionally
marginalized andunderrepresented groups make
sense of the health impacts ofclimate change in their
communities.
Dr Bubb's academic interestsalso include development
communication, the politicaleconomy of media and exploring
mainstream media representationsof people of African descent in
(01:28):
the Black Atlantic.
Dr Bubb is also a media andcommunications consultant, with
expertise in strategiccommunications and digital
journalism content creation.
Dr Bubb has more than 20 yearsof experience in print,
broadcast and digital journalism.
He's a believer in the Orishafaith and is the host of the
Weekly Sunday Digital Podcast,the Bubb Report.
(01:51):
Here's our conversation, hi.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Kellen, thank you so much for being on the show.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
It's a pleasure.
Good afternoon, good morning,good night, whatever time you're
watching the podcast, it's goodto be here.
It's been a long time coming,but I'm glad I finally made time
.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Let's do so.
Why don't you tell thelisteners a little bit about
yourself and your advocacy workin the community?
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I'm Kellen.
I earned my PhD at HowardUniversity back in 2021 in
health and climate changecommunication, so my work and my
research is at the intersectionof understanding the health
impacts of climate change oncommunities of color.
I have taken an academic path,so I am an educator in the DMV
(02:37):
area, that's Washington,maryland, dc area, where I teach
communication studies.
I teach health communicationand I also teach climate
communication.
But outside of that I am also amember of the Multicultural
Commission of the Office of theState's Attorney here in
Maryland.
I also volunteer my time withany other kind of community
(03:03):
activism that happens within theLaurel community.
That's where I live, in Laurel,maryland, and I give back.
I advise youth where I can,especially young men of color,
especially young men who aredisadvantaged, because I think
it is important for those of us,especially for people who look
like us, especially black maleswho have had the opportunity and
(03:24):
the privilege of highereducation to give back, because
I believe representation matters.
Representation is extremelyimportant and I also host a
podcast.
It's a podcast I host everySunday.
It's called the Bubby Port andthat is also part of giving back
to Ada and the Caribbean, whereI'm originally from, because I
come from a background ofjournalism, and so the work that
(03:46):
I do on the podcast focuses onbringing issues to the fore that
people in the Caribbean tend tobe very uncomfortable with
bringing in the media space.
So that's, in a nutshell, whatI do.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Okay, very nice.
So the Multicultural Commission, what do they do?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
So the Multicultural Commission they're responsible
for engaging in criminal justicereform work in Prince George's
County under State's AttorneyBrave Boys Office, and so the
point of the MulticulturalCommissioners to bring people in
the community who are fromdiverse backgrounds.
(04:27):
Of course, Prince George'sCounty is a very diverse county
and what we try to do is to getthe community involved around
issues of crime prevention, ofissues of youth empowerment, of
issues of youth education, ofissues of giving young people
access to opportunities thatthey ordinarily would not have.
(04:48):
And so that is the work of theMulticultural Commission and, as
it says, it's multicultural.
The point of it is to try andengage with people from the
community who representdifferent countries, Because
there are a lot of us here thatare from different parts of the
world and our voices need to beheard at the policy table,
(05:12):
specifically in respect of howthese policies affect
communities of color.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Definitely, and Prince George's County is one of
those places where it's verydiverse, and to have that
Multicultural Commission in theState's Attorney Office will
definitely help with how policeare they policing our
communities as well.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yeah, absolutely Obviously, we will go on to talk
about queer people, but ofcourse it's also critical that
we appreciate there are culturalnuances and how police treat
with the queer community aroundpolicing as well, and that
particular voice, voices likeours, must be there to talk
(05:55):
about those issues because theyare unique to us.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Definitely, because it goes hand in hand with
discrimination when it comes tobeing from a multicultural
background and being a queerperson.
It definitely goes hand in hand, so having there's intersex
there, right.
So we cannot speak about onewithout speak about the other.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Absolutely, absolutely, and that's what it
is.
My work is intersectional.
It's not either or it's notthis one thing, and it should be
both, and you can have theseintersecting conversations
without those conversationsbeing competing conversations.
Exactly that, sometimes, iswhat is missing in community
(06:45):
work.
Not only community work, buteven in academic settings.
What you find is that academiacan sometimes be so siloed.
You have people who are outthere doing their own research
without realizing theintersectionality in that work.
So it's important that voiceslike ours are at the table
(07:06):
advocating those issues.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Right, definitely you mentioned the blood report and
some of the things thatCaribbean people don't like to
talk about, so give me anexample of what those topics are
.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Well again, sexuality , the way that they talk about
sexuality, the language that isused, the way that they talk
about mental health, thelanguage that is used there, the
way that crime and justice iscovered.
We're talking about how theyhold power to account, and when
I say power here I mean thepeople that we vest with power
(07:39):
through the ballot box.
And so the notions ofindependent media sometimes are
challenged in many ways, suchthat what we try to do is to
bring some semblance ofindependence and accountability
in the way that people in theCaribbean cannot do because of
the fact that they live thereand because we're somewhat
(08:00):
disconnected in the diasporafrom what happens home and our
proximity to power.
In that sense, we have muchmore leeway in articulating
issues that people want us toarticulate that ordinarily
people in country would find itvery difficult to do.
Are there occasions when peoplewould come to me and say, hey,
(08:22):
would you cover this?
Because the folks at home arenot doing it, because they're
just afraid to do it.
It's important that those of uswith, I guess, that privilege
of distance in a way, but whostill give back, are able to
give back.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, so what are the conversations around the LGBTQ
plus community?
Let's talk about some of theissues that people from
Caribbean cultures have withthat community.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, and the caveat here, what I would say is that
it's not only the Caribbean, butI think if we look at Africa as
well, even if we look at Asia.
But I think a commondenominator there is organized
religion.
The way that religion issituated within our cultures and
our communities informs how wethink and behave.
(09:12):
Granted, it's all hypocriticalif you think about it really,
because we do not follow all thetenets of the Bible.
I say to people if you're goingto claim that one thing is an
abomination while engaging inother abominations, then you're
hypocritical.
I'm sorry, but in the context ofthe Caribbean, attitudes among
(09:33):
people may be slowly changing,because what you find is that
people would eventually discoverthat there are queer people in
their families.
Yes, what do you do with yourson who is queer?
What do you do with yourdaughter who is queer?
Granted, there are some peoplewho would not receive that news
too kindly, but there are otherswho come to an understanding in
respect of that reality.
(09:55):
So, while individual attitudesmay be changing, the plurality
in the Caribbean is such thatthe Caribbean is still
culturally homophobic in manyrespects, and that is supported
by colonial legacies.
That is also supported byreligious legacies.
So in most Caribbean countriesyou do have the buggery law and
(10:16):
that buggery law criminalizessame-sex intimacy.
Interestingly, it criminalizessame-sex male intimacy.
It doesn't say much aboutfemale intimacy in that respect.
So you've had in some islands Ithink it's Belize, Antigua,
(10:37):
Trinidad and Tobago and, Ibelieve, Barberas where the
buggery laws through courtaction has been repealed, but
for the most part these laws arestill in place.
For the most part, if there isany attempt at having queer
representation, whether that'sthrough media, whatever version
(10:57):
of a Pride parade that wouldlook like, obviously it would
not be the same or any inklingof having queer representation
in the Caribbean will be metwith fierce backlash from the
organized religious community.
And they use the same tropes.
They quote Leviticus andDeuteronomy.
They talk about queerness notbeing black and queerness not
(11:19):
being of the Caribbean andthings like that.
So that continues to be theprevailing culture, that
continues to be the prevailingattitude, even though attitudes
are slowly changing.
But the prevailing mainstreamnarrative is still one of
close-mindedness.
It's still one of homophobiaand again, that homophobia is
(11:41):
driven by colonial legacies andreligious legacies.
Yes, definitely.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
I remember it was sometime in the 2000s I don't
remember exactly the year butfrom our primary stuff, jamaica
was on the BBC Doing aninterview.
That's dis-golding.
They don't want to call hisname because I refuse to call
that.
Not him, but former PrimeMinister Bruce Golden of Jamaica
was on BBC and when they askedhim about the LGBTQ plus
(12:12):
community and serving in thecabinet and his statement was no
gays can serve in his cabinet.
So when you look at that, hewas alive.
Ok.
Well, if a person is qualifiedto do a job, then they will
serve For him.
It was no gays.
If you're gay, as a matter offact, being gay disqualifies you
from serve in the cabinet whileyou was Prime Minister.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
And there is also this I wouldsay warped narrative in the
Caribbean that gay people wantextra rights.
No, gay people want to betreated equally as everybody
else.
You want the same rights thateverybody else has, and
sometimes Caribbean people theylead with a particular box.
(12:58):
They put you in that particularbox so you might be queer.
So therefore, we're not goingto work with you, as opposed to
seeing you as human first.
So that's what it is.
They don't see your humanityand even if they see parts of
your humanity, there are thingsabout your humanity that will
disqualify you from any aspectof national or social engagement
(13:20):
.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And, as you said, it's the hypocrisy for me,
because you're not following allthe tenants.
You are eating shellfish ordoing some work on Sunday, or
planting crops that aredifferent from each other in the
same field, like all kinds ofodd things that are stated in
the Old Testament.
You're not adhering to thosethings.
(13:42):
Fornication for sure, and sojust my form of what you
consider a sin is one thing thatyou want to pull out of the
Bible.
It makes you hate me.
But then also there's hypocrisyas well, because seeing one's
humanity is what's supposed tobe inherently, what being
Christian and of God is supposedto be about, but yet you are
(14:07):
espousing hate and instead ofsaying that you don't like or
read with a particular act, youas a whole person are condemned
and you're less than so.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
And we see that reality and the impact that has
is significant.
I mean, we talk about braindrain in the Caribbean, but in
the context of the brain drainin the Caribbean, if we really
winnow it down and look at themetadata, surely a majority of
heterosexual people in factimmigrated from the Caribbean.
But within that population,within the subsets of that
(14:42):
population, are queer people whoalso immigrated very talented,
very qualified queer people whohad to leave Right Because of
homophobia.
They've had to seek asylum inNorth America and Europe.
And the irony of leaving yourhome as well is because, yes,
you might be queer there you'reexperiencing discrimination, but
when you move to Europe andNorth America, you are
(15:05):
experiencing intersectingaspects of discrimination.
So not only are you Quena, butyou're Black.
So whenever I talk aboutnotions of Quenas in the
Caribbean, we also have to talkabout the impact that it has on
the human capacity of theseislands.
A lot of talented people I mean, I left, I was not going to
(15:25):
stay there, there's no way Likemyself, even though we are a
minority, but we are a minoritywho would have been able to
contribute significantly to thedevelopment of our countries.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Yeah, Right, yeah, definitely, and I don't know if
you know Maurice Tomlin.
So, yes, civilized attorneyfrom Jamaica, and he's now in
Canada, married to his husband,but he's still fighting the
fight in Jamaica and theCaribbean to get rid of the
Boogary Law and legalizedsame-sex marriage.
(15:57):
It was just, I think, about amonth ago when something got
thrown out of the court becausethey wanted to put it on the
back burner and they don't wantto touch it.
So it's so sad to know that in2023, when we have organizations
like the United Nations thatare still supporting countries
(16:19):
with such strong homophobia intheir leadership, when they're
still supporting them, and then,on the other end, they're
fighting and say, oh, they'refighting against homophobia, so
it's a bigger picture because ifthose organizations will say
we're taking a stand and we needto make sure all citizens of
these countries are treatedfairly, then I believe that some
(16:39):
of these Caribbean islands willunderstand that they need to do
better.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
They're just not in that place yet, unfortunately,
and I think they still pander to.
Even.
There are some politicians inwho hold public office, who
might be progressive thinking,but because of the social
construct of these societies itwill not be politically
(17:04):
expedient for them to go againstthe grain.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Yeah, because it was just recently in Grenada where
24-year-old Josiah John TRobinson was killed.
He's a known member of theLGBTQ plus community.
He was killed in June and Ihaven't really heard a lot of
uproar about it or hear anythingabout the investigation.
So this goes right back to sayare they really taken in serious
(17:29):
when even crime are against theLGBTQ plus community in those
Caribbean countries?
Speaker 3 (17:34):
All right, and you're right about that.
I mean, in Grenada, what theydo is, for example, when a gay
person goes to report a crimeagainst them, the police
counter-threatens them and sayswell, we can arrest you under
the buggery laws, and sometimesyou have to jump through hoops
to get justice.
And even the language that theyuse when queer people come
(17:56):
forward to report crimes because, again, as queer people in the
Caribbean, violence happens andyou need the protection of the
state, and sometimes the statedoes not afford you the same
protection as it would affordeverybody else.
And so, in the context of JohnT's case, I mean, it doesn't
surprise me that they up to thispoint.
It's just very nonchalant, wow.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I'm sure they probably have some idea of what
happened, but nobody's gonna sayanything.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Yeah, and again, that is homophobia in and of itself.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
So here at Speerans, the Caribbean community here in
the United States, because, justlet me, we're very proud of
you're very proud of who you areand you know how do you are,
you're not afraid to speak truthand you're not afraid to fight
for the community or anyinjustice at all.
Have you experienced anydisrespect or any homophobia or
(18:52):
discrimination from theCaribbean community here in the
whole, in the States?
Speaker 3 (18:56):
I have been fortunate not to, because I've been very
selective in respect of thespaces in which I commune.
So if I know that there is aparticular space, especially
heteronormative spaces, like adance hall space, for example,
I'm just not going to go intothat space, right.
(19:16):
So I think the luxury of beinghere in the United States is
that I don't have to, I'm notobligated to be around my
indigenous Grenadian community.
I'm just not, which I think ina way is a good thing.
I find myself in spaces.
There are are some Grenadianspaces that I hang out with.
(19:38):
I mean very few, maybe one ortwo people who hold events, but
they are open minded, they arestraight people who are gender
affirming and who arenon-judgmental, and I would find
myself in those spaces.
But ordinarily fortunately forme, because I did not having
experience what I experienced inGrenada, there was no need for
(19:59):
me to come and subject myself tothat same experience here in
the United States.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
So sharing some experience, some of the stuff
that you experienced back home,if it's not too painful to speak
about.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Yeah, I mean I've been called names.
On the one I was walking on thestreet like back in the 90s
growing up in Grenada, thepopular song was Buju Bantans
Boom Bye, bye.
And I will be passing at a.
We call it a shop, I don't knowwhat you guys call it in
Jamaica, but it's like thebodega, it's like the corner
store type of concept.
(20:34):
But you pass and you have guyshanging out how it is in the
crib and they hang out aroundthe shops and so on and they
would deliberately just on awing and a press start playing
the boom bye song while I'mpassing and people would taunt
me and call me names and that'swhat I experienced a lot of.
I experienced cases where therewas one time a bus refused to
(20:55):
stop for me.
One time there was a guy whoactually attacked me on a bus.
One time I had to run out ofthe bus when the bus stopped.
So those are some of the thingsI experienced.
Even from a family member.
They put me in a chokehold onetime and said I heard this about
you, but you're looking foryour death, like literally.
So these were some of theexperiences I had.
(21:19):
I was teased, called sissy andI call all of these names by
people who I went to school with.
So it's something that it'ssomething that I experienced
there, and I had to decide formyself whether I would allow
those experiences to define whoI were to become or not, and I
decided the latter that it wasnot going to define.
(21:40):
In fact, it gave me the impetusand the motivation to leave in
August 2004.
And when I left in August 2004,that was one of the happiest
times of my life.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Wow.
So for those who do not knowwhat boom by by mean, so it's.
It was a very popular Jamaicansong in the nineties when
homophobia was really the thingin the Caribbean and this is
what my artist called BoudreBantane.
So Bum-bye-bye his song wascalled Bum-bye-bye in a bat-man
head, meaning gunshot in gay manhead.
(22:16):
So that song was actually beingpromoted all over the Caribbean
and, of course, in Danzaalspaces both in the United States
, Canada and in England and inEurope.
So it was a very popular song.
It probably I don't I cannot saybecause I don't know for sure,
if I reach number one, but Iwouldn't be surprised if it did.
And that's just to show how anartist can be so cruel and put
(22:40):
in these things in the minds ofpeople that they need to kill
people.
And to be honest with you, whenthat song was popular, I was
growing up in Jamaica and a lotof gay men were being beat,
killed and nothing happened.
None of those crimes were eversolved, because you know why,
that was the end time at thetime and the police didn't care,
(23:01):
the politicians didn't care,Community leaders didn't care,
the church is definitely didn'tcare.
I'm happy to know that song isbanding a lot of spaces, but if
you go to YouTube you can stilllisten to that song and people
still use that song to targetpeople of the LGBTQ plus
community.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Wow, yeah, this is a very violent.
Every time I hear that song, myheart sinks.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, I was going to ask what experiences in your
life led you to do the work thatyou're doing, but you were just
very clear about those thingsin Grenada that happened when
you left.
What was your family's response?
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Well, some of them were supportive.
I would say some weresupportive but others, others
were neutral.
They obviously, at that point Iwas not necessarily fully out,
shall we say.
So my motivation for leavingwas that I was going to study.
But of course that was that allof us, when we leave the
(24:02):
Caribbean, we try to pursuehigher educational opportunities
for those of us who can't getthose opportunities at home.
But one of my intrinsicmotivations was getting out of a
space where I was unable tolive an authentic life.
So that was that?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
How old were you then ?
When you came to the UK, I was24.
Okay, and did you have thatexperience?
When you came here, did youfeel like you were accepted?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I think that's relative to what spaces you were
in.
So I tell people, homophobia iseverywhere and anywhere and
just because you immigrate tothe United States doesn't mean
that you can be fully free.
I mean you look at the contextof hate crimes that continue to
plague our community.
You look at what's happening onthe political front in places
(24:52):
like Florida, for example, andthe craziness that's happening
there.
So, but there were spaces whereyou go.
For example, because I lived inNew York, I would go to West
Village and hang out.
So there were spaces where Ifelt comfortable.
But like I lived in New York,like nobody really cared, except
(25:13):
if you went into certainneighborhoods.
You had to.
You still had to be guarded,but I didn't go to those
neighborhoods.
So I've always been a veryhyper vigilant person in respect
of where and who I hang outwith, because for me it's all
about protecting my mentalhealth and self preservation at
the end of the day andrespecting that space in which
(25:33):
I'm in.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Yeah, and also you mentioned it's early on, but
coming from the Caribbean Islandas an immigrant, as being black
and being queer, it's aninteresting area that we have to
deal with it all and we get itfrom everybody Because, first
thing, you speak different, youare gay, you are black, there is
something, there's anassumption that people made of
(25:59):
us being foreigners and allthose stuff.
So it's a lot to deal with whenyou first migrate to a country
like America.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
And, of course, the challenges of adjusting.
As well, as a new immigrant,you're adjusting to this new
space, you're adjusting to newcultural dynamic, whether
seasonal depression, that's areal thing, yeah, yeah.
So it's this idea that, again,queer people's experiences are
only one dimensional.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
It's just not so.
Let's go back a little bit andtell us what is your earliest
queer memory.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Yeah, my earliest queer memory was it was in my
senior year of high school.
I believe that's when I juststarted developing feelings for
the same sex.
And it was a very conflictedtime for me mentally because I
went to a religious school, anall boys Catholic high school.
In the context of thatexperience, religion teaches you
that homosexuality is anabomination, it's a sin.
(26:56):
So you hearing these messagesas a young person, as a teenager
, it can certainly have a mentalimpact, an emotional impact on
you and that's why when peoplesay, oh, you choose to be gay or
you choose to be lesbian orwhatever it is, you don't come
to making that choice.
It just is just who you areattracted to and what you're
(27:19):
attracted to.
And that is the outside of thatexperience.
And I would say that there were, I had, there were many girls
who were around, but I was justnot attracted to girls, right,
you know, I was attracted to theathlete, the track athlete and
the football player.
So that was my earliestexperience.
Of course, it was also rackedwith a lot of guilt because in
(27:41):
my mind I was like thisaccording to what the Bible says
, this is just wrong, right, andthere is a lot of and there is
no one to talk to.
There was no one that you canconfide in because you don't
want to turn to what, what?
What does community look likein that context?
And the other thing is Grenadais a very small country,
(28:02):
population of 100,000 people.
There were people who werequote unquote visibly queer, but
they were not.
They did not declare themselvesas queer.
Even if you were hanging outwith those people will begin to
label you as also being queer,and that's one of the things
that I was afraid to do at thatage, because I did not want to
be labeled, right, you know, andpeople ask me questions too
(28:26):
when I was a teenager or are youthis, are you that?
And I would deny it because,again, what you try to do there
is that you're trying to confirm, right, you're trying to
confirm, you're trying not to beisolated, you're trying not to
be ostracized and discriminatedagainst and bullied and abused,
but you just eventually comeinto yourself.
Speaker 4 (28:48):
Yeah, I'm probably killed too.
You never know, and exactly.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
So was that your biggest concern when you
realized that you were queer?
Is that physical backlash?
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Yeah, that physical backlash, the fear of missing
out Now they call it FOMO, butthe fear of being isolated, the
fear of being bullied anddisrespected.
And, given the context of smallsocieties, people talk and
people gossip.
Yes, people give you looks.
They say, just like a smalltown, living in a small town,
similar type of deal, yeah, sothen, were there just like?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
because it sounded like from the way that you told
the story that there were peoplewho made that assumption about,
because you say, when you leftyou weren't fully out.
So where did the assumptioncome from?
Was it just like?
Speaker 3 (29:37):
The assumption comes from how you dress, how you show
up.
I didn't show up like the restof the guys with a particular
look.
My look was always ametrosexual look.
I didn't play sports Right, Idid not.
A pair quote, unquote masculineor trade, that's the term now
that they use.
(29:58):
I was not that.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
It's so sudden in the Caribbean, though, because they
would even associate it.
Being a very intelligent manthat writes properly will be gay
.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Exactly like your deportment, your comportment.
Depending on how you comportyourself, how you speak, they
label you based on thosesuperficial markers.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
Right, so what do you love most about being queer?
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Just the community.
I love community.
I love pride parade.
I love One.
One of the things I enjoyed inNew York was going to the balls,
but that was a lot of funBallroom.
It was just Amazing experienceand just seeing the beauty of
community.
There is a lot of beauty in thecommunity.
(30:46):
There's a lot of successfulpeople in the community.
That's what I really enjoyabout it.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Where and how did you really find your first
community?
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Well, I would say I found my first community in New
York among other Queer immigrantmen who were also on their new
immigrant journey as well,because a lot of us wanted to
understand how to navigate theimmigrant process as queer
people and what that looks like.
So that's where you findcommunity and then you begin to
(31:17):
discover Places, you begin tocome into your own because you
meet other queer people andyou're like wow, this feels like
a sense of belonging here.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, Sorry, and you may have already answered this
question in the situation Well,in a couple situations that you
mentioned about being attackedon the bus and things like that
but what has been your mostchallenging experience as a
queer person?
Speaker 3 (31:40):
there's still a lot of Microaggressiveness.
That happens, passiveaggressiveness.
That happens in some spaces Notat my job, I have to say.
I'm very fortunate with that.
But you go to like you might beinvited to a Barbecue or you
might be invited to On event andyou can tell that there is some
tension in the room.
(32:01):
People give you looks andthey'd be like what is he doing
here?
That type of reality is stillwhat I experience, and then just
a lot of the mental healthimpacts from seeing what happens
in places like Florida and youworry about is this going to
make its way to?
Is this going to become afederal policy?
So is that anxiety that youstill have in the back of your
(32:22):
mind?
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Yeah right, because hey, if, if we don't get our
time, vote in the nextpresidential election.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
It's over.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
Be the Trump or the Sanders, it's gonna be.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
I don't have a rough time because I'm telling you not
only Trump and the Sanders, butyou also have the Supreme Court
.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
True?
Yes, because they want to rollback everything.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Yeah, exactly, so you also have to confront that so
let's talk about your family.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
When and how did you actually come out to them?
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Well, I don't think I came out to some members of my
father.
I'm not out to everyone in myfamily because I don't think it
was necessary to come out tothem and honestly.
But the people that I've comeout to are people who I trust.
There is one aunt, some cousins, my mom is deceased so but I
think my mom knew my mom diedwhen I was a teenager.
(33:19):
So there were the people thatdid the pack came out there,
they were supportive and theywere like oh yeah, well, we knew
, like your relationship, thenno, it did not.
And like there is still sort ofin the critter.
Is this till Sort of a don'task, don't tell type of deal
(33:41):
with Caribbean families?
They would love you.
They would love you whensometimes let's say you
introduce in.
Not me, that didn't happen tome, but I know a friend of mine
who brought his partner toGrenada and the mom of one of
the guys.
She was so Happy to see thembut you know, the queer
(34:02):
conversation never came up aboutwho this person was, mm-hmm,
and it was just that.
It was just this very odd andthat's the thing in the
Caribbean, like it's there butthey don't talk about it.
It's so weird to me.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
I'm fortunate because I took my wife home in May and
parents came or sister came, andthe good thing is, in the
community where I grew up, whereI experienced homophobia, on 10
they had a big party for mewelcoming her and her family to
(34:38):
the family.
So that was great.
I was actually shocked by someof the people who came to the
party some of my aunts, uncles,cousins, just people that were
concerned, so strong Christian.
They showed up and everybodywas just showing us love and I,
honestly, going there, I wasthat man.
I want to what it's gonna be.
(35:00):
Our people got because mybrother Throwed a party and it's
back to them and they came.
And my father, who was one ofthe biggest Anti-gave, anti
LGBTQ plus person in the world,he was so welcoming, he loves my
wife now and everything and I'mlike well, what a shift.
But I still Habit in the back ofmy mind that there are still
(35:25):
homophobia there.
Right, because I have two thatdidn't show up and I hear back
that they were like that's it,it's still on it, go down, code
it.
And they don't really like mebecause they don't like code on.
Code it.
Right, so you can see worries,yeah, but they overwhelming
support that I got and the lovethat was shown.
(35:47):
I was like man.
It's amazing because I'm thatperson that's very vocal and
don't care about the country inKelowna.
I know I know.
I know Because I'm gonna standup for what I believe it, but it
was just so great to see thathappening In the little country
part of Jamaica where I grew up.
It was very nice to see thatthat people actually Starting to
(36:13):
open up their mind andunderstand that people love.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
But I do think, though I do think there is a
respectability politics elementhere that I observed having Gone
back to my home country severaltimes Since living here, and
one of the things I observedthat there is a socio-economic
element to this.
If you are a queer person fromthe gully, as you say in Jamaica
(36:38):
, or a queer person from theother side of town None,
uptowner, another Jamaicanreference but you are treated so
poorly as opposed to if you area queer person that has or has
the appearance of privilege,right, right, whether that's a
privilege of living in theStates or or North America, or
(37:00):
Canada or Europe, or whetherthat's a privilege of who in
your family, people tend totreat you differently.
I've seen that a lot.
Where the queer people theywould leave alone, they would
not say anything to them, but aqueer person from a certain part
of the community and you grewup poor, they treat you really
terribly.
So it's a dynamic that I'veobserved and it's something that
(37:24):
I think is worth interrogating.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
True, we need to do a study on it.
That's something that would bea good study to look on the
psychological part of it and whyis it.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
That's not socioeconomic differences in
acceptance.
Yeah, who's accepted and whoisn't?
Yeah, helen, what about yourfather or siblings?
What's that?
What does that look?
Speaker 3 (37:51):
like, or what did that look like?
I'm an only child, ok, and myfather was.
He died last year, ok, but hewas also a bit homophobic and it
was sort of the same kind ofdon't ask, don't tell dynamic.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
So what advice would you give to your younger self?
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Be brave.
I felt as if I was very timidand intimidated as a younger
person and I felt that I oughtto have taken much more risk,
professionally and personally.
So that's the advice I wouldgive to my younger self Just be
braver, nice.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Any last words for the audience.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Any last words.
Not everyone comes to anacceptance of who they are at
the same time.
Everyone's journey is differentand whatever journey you are on
, whatever journey you are on,you should embrace elements of
that journey, whether that is ifyou're not out yet.
(38:53):
No one should be forced to outyou.
You should not be forced to outyourself If you're out.
Embrace and be proud and happywith who you are.
Don't placate yourself, don'tlimit yourself just because you
care what other people will sayabout you, because at the end of
the day, they don't pay yourbills, they don't pay your
mortgage, they don't pay yourtaxes.
(39:14):
People's opinions don't matter.
If we were to subscribe topeople's opinions, we would all
be in poverty.
That's it for me.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
OK, ok, kellan, if people want to listen to the BUB
report, where can they listen?
Speaker 3 (39:32):
The BUB report is on YouTube and Facebook.
Ok, and Twitter.
So it's YouTube, facebookTwitter.
We post snippets on Instagramas well, and it's also aired on
a national TV in Grenada.
Ok, in the reporter.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
So on YouTube it's just the BUB report.
Yes, ok, I'll provide links inthe show notes.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
OK, all right, all right listeners.
There you have it, dr KellanBudd, the founder and host of
the BUB report.
He's an educator and he sits onthe Multicultural Commission
Board of the State's Attorneyand he has a passion for helping
the community.
Thank you, Dr Budd, for beingon a core understanding.
(40:14):
We really enjoy having you on.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Absolutely, it was my pleasure, thank you.
Dr Kellan Bubb, a native of Palm Rose, grenada, is
an associate professor ofcommunication studies at
Montgomery College in Rockville,maryland.
He is also a 2021 Yale EdwardBoucher scholar.
The Edward Boucher HonorSociety recognizes outstanding
scholarly achievements amongminority scholars and promotes
diversity and excellence indoctoral education and the
(00:22):
professorate.
Dr Bubb also won a Top PaperAward at the 2021 Eastern
Communication AssociationConference and has represented
Howard University at severalregional and international
conferences.
Dr Bubb is also in the processof co-authoring his first book
titled African Media Industriesin the Era of Digitization and
(00:43):
Globalization, which focuses onAfrican media digitization and
democratization in the 21stcentury.
His doctorate is incommunications, culture and
media studies, with theconcentration in climate change
communication.
His research focusesspecifically on the health
impacts of climate change oncommunities of color and
developing countries in theglobal south.
(01:05):
He uses diverse range ofqualitative and quantitative
research approaches tounderstand how traditionally
marginalized andunderrepresented groups make
sense of the health impacts ofclimate change in their
communities.
Dr Bubb's academic interestsalso include development
communication, the politicaleconomy of media and exploring
mainstream media representationsof people of African descent in
(01:28):
the Black Atlantic.
Dr Bubb is also a media andcommunications consultant, with
expertise in strategiccommunications and digital
journalism content creation.
Dr Bubb has more than 20 yearsof experience in print,
broadcast and digital journalism.
He's a believer in the Orishafaith and is the host of the
Weekly Sunday Digital Podcast,the Bubb Report.
(01:51):
Here's our conversation, hi.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Kellen, thank you so much for being on the show.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
It's a pleasure.
Good afternoon, good morning,good night, whatever time you're
watching the podcast, it's goodto be here.
It's been a long time coming,but I'm glad I finally made time
.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Let's do so.
Why don't you tell thelisteners a little bit about
yourself and your advocacy workin the community?
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I'm Kellen.
I earned my PhD at HowardUniversity back in 2021 in
health and climate changecommunication, so my work and my
research is at the intersectionof understanding the health
impacts of climate change oncommunities of color.
I have taken an academic path,so I am an educator in the DMV
(02:37):
area, that's Washington,maryland, dc area, where I teach
communication studies.
I teach health communicationand I also teach climate
communication.
But outside of that I am also amember of the Multicultural
Commission of the Office of theState's Attorney here in
Maryland.
I also volunteer my time withany other kind of community
(03:03):
activism that happens within theLaurel community.
That's where I live, in Laurel,maryland, and I give back.
I advise youth where I can,especially young men of color,
especially young men who aredisadvantaged, because I think
it is important for those of us,especially for people who look
like us, especially black maleswho have had the opportunity and
(03:24):
the privilege of highereducation to give back, because
I believe representation matters.
Representation is extremelyimportant and I also host a
podcast.
It's a podcast I host everySunday.
It's called the Bubby Port andthat is also part of giving back
to Ada and the Caribbean, whereI'm originally from, because I
come from a background ofjournalism, and so the work that
(03:46):
I do on the podcast focuses onbringing issues to the fore that
people in the Caribbean tend tobe very uncomfortable with
bringing in the media space.
So that's, in a nutshell, whatI do.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Okay, very nice.
So the Multicultural Commission, what do they do?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
So the Multicultural Commission they're responsible
for engaging in criminal justicereform work in Prince George's
County under State's AttorneyBrave Boys Office, and so the
point of the MulticulturalCommissioners to bring people in
the community who are fromdiverse backgrounds.
(04:27):
Of course, Prince George'sCounty is a very diverse county
and what we try to do is to getthe community involved around
issues of crime prevention, ofissues of youth empowerment, of
issues of youth education, ofissues of giving young people
access to opportunities thatthey ordinarily would not have.
(04:48):
And so that is the work of theMulticultural Commission and, as
it says, it's multicultural.
The point of it is to try andengage with people from the
community who representdifferent countries, Because
there are a lot of us here thatare from different parts of the
world and our voices need to beheard at the policy table,
(05:12):
specifically in respect of howthese policies affect
communities of color.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Definitely, and Prince George's County is one of
those places where it's verydiverse, and to have that
Multicultural Commission in theState's Attorney Office will
definitely help with how policeare they policing our
communities as well.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yeah, absolutely Obviously, we will go on to talk
about queer people, but ofcourse it's also critical that
we appreciate there are culturalnuances and how police treat
with the queer community aroundpolicing as well, and that
particular voice, voices likeours, must be there to talk
(05:55):
about those issues because theyare unique to us.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Definitely, because it goes hand in hand with
discrimination when it comes tobeing from a multicultural
background and being a queerperson.
It definitely goes hand in hand, so having there's intersex
there, right.
So we cannot speak about onewithout speak about the other.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Absolutely, absolutely, and that's what it
is.
My work is intersectional.
It's not either or it's notthis one thing, and it should be
both, and you can have theseintersecting conversations
without those conversationsbeing competing conversations.
Exactly that, sometimes, iswhat is missing in community
(06:45):
work.
Not only community work, buteven in academic settings.
What you find is that academiacan sometimes be so siloed.
You have people who are outthere doing their own research
without realizing theintersectionality in that work.
So it's important that voiceslike ours are at the table
(07:06):
advocating those issues.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Right, definitely you mentioned the blood report and
some of the things thatCaribbean people don't like to
talk about, so give me anexample of what those topics are
.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Well again, sexuality , the way that they talk about
sexuality, the language that isused, the way that they talk
about mental health, thelanguage that is used there, the
way that crime and justice iscovered.
We're talking about how theyhold power to account, and when
I say power here I mean thepeople that we vest with power
(07:39):
through the ballot box.
And so the notions ofindependent media sometimes are
challenged in many ways, suchthat what we try to do is to
bring some semblance ofindependence and accountability
in the way that people in theCaribbean cannot do because of
the fact that they live thereand because we're somewhat
(08:00):
disconnected in the diasporafrom what happens home and our
proximity to power.
In that sense, we have muchmore leeway in articulating
issues that people want us toarticulate that ordinarily
people in country would find itvery difficult to do.
Are there occasions when peoplewould come to me and say, hey,
(08:22):
would you cover this?
Because the folks at home arenot doing it, because they're
just afraid to do it.
It's important that those of uswith, I guess, that privilege
of distance in a way, but whostill give back, are able to
give back.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, so what are the conversations around the LGBTQ
plus community?
Let's talk about some of theissues that people from
Caribbean cultures have withthat community.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, and the caveat here, what I would say is that
it's not only the Caribbean, butI think if we look at Africa as
well, even if we look at Asia.
But I think a commondenominator there is organized
religion.
The way that religion issituated within our cultures and
our communities informs how wethink and behave.
(09:12):
Granted, it's all hypocriticalif you think about it really,
because we do not follow all thetenets of the Bible.
I say to people if you're goingto claim that one thing is an
abomination while engaging inother abominations, then you're
hypocritical.
I'm sorry, but in the context ofthe Caribbean, attitudes among
(09:33):
people may be slowly changing,because what you find is that
people would eventually discoverthat there are queer people in
their families.
Yes, what do you do with yourson who is queer?
What do you do with yourdaughter who is queer?
Granted, there are some peoplewho would not receive that news
too kindly, but there are otherswho come to an understanding in
respect of that reality.
(09:55):
So, while individual attitudesmay be changing, the plurality
in the Caribbean is such thatthe Caribbean is still
culturally homophobic in manyrespects, and that is supported
by colonial legacies.
That is also supported byreligious legacies.
So in most Caribbean countriesyou do have the buggery law and
(10:16):
that buggery law criminalizessame-sex intimacy.
Interestingly, it criminalizessame-sex male intimacy.
It doesn't say much aboutfemale intimacy in that respect.
So you've had in some islands Ithink it's Belize, Antigua,
(10:37):
Trinidad and Tobago and, Ibelieve, Barberas where the
buggery laws through courtaction has been repealed, but
for the most part these laws arestill in place.
For the most part, if there isany attempt at having queer
representation, whether that'sthrough media, whatever version
(10:57):
of a Pride parade that wouldlook like, obviously it would
not be the same or any inklingof having queer representation
in the Caribbean will be metwith fierce backlash from the
organized religious community.
And they use the same tropes.
They quote Leviticus andDeuteronomy.
They talk about queerness notbeing black and queerness not
(11:19):
being of the Caribbean andthings like that.
So that continues to be theprevailing culture, that
continues to be the prevailingattitude, even though attitudes
are slowly changing.
But the prevailing mainstreamnarrative is still one of
close-mindedness.
It's still one of homophobiaand again, that homophobia is
(11:41):
driven by colonial legacies andreligious legacies.
Yes, definitely.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
I remember it was sometime in the 2000s I don't
remember exactly the year butfrom our primary stuff, jamaica
was on the BBC Doing aninterview.
That's dis-golding.
They don't want to call hisname because I refuse to call
that.
Not him, but former PrimeMinister Bruce Golden of Jamaica
was on BBC and when they askedhim about the LGBTQ plus
(12:12):
community and serving in thecabinet and his statement was no
gays can serve in his cabinet.
So when you look at that, hewas alive.
Ok.
Well, if a person is qualifiedto do a job, then they will
serve For him.
It was no gays.
If you're gay, as a matter offact, being gay disqualifies you
from serve in the cabinet whileyou was Prime Minister.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
And there is also this I wouldsay warped narrative in the
Caribbean that gay people wantextra rights.
No, gay people want to betreated equally as everybody
else.
You want the same rights thateverybody else has, and
sometimes Caribbean people theylead with a particular box.
(12:58):
They put you in that particularbox so you might be queer.
So therefore, we're not goingto work with you, as opposed to
seeing you as human first.
So that's what it is.
They don't see your humanityand even if they see parts of
your humanity, there are thingsabout your humanity that will
disqualify you from any aspectof national or social engagement
(13:20):
.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And, as you said, it's the hypocrisy for me,
because you're not following allthe tenants.
You are eating shellfish ordoing some work on Sunday, or
planting crops that aredifferent from each other in the
same field, like all kinds ofodd things that are stated in
the Old Testament.
You're not adhering to thosethings.
(13:42):
Fornication for sure, and sojust my form of what you
consider a sin is one thing thatyou want to pull out of the
Bible.
It makes you hate me.
But then also there's hypocrisyas well, because seeing one's
humanity is what's supposed tobe inherently, what being
Christian and of God is supposedto be about, but yet you are
(14:07):
espousing hate and instead ofsaying that you don't like or
read with a particular act, youas a whole person are condemned
and you're less than so.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
And we see that reality and the impact that has
is significant.
I mean, we talk about braindrain in the Caribbean, but in
the context of the brain drainin the Caribbean, if we really
winnow it down and look at themetadata, surely a majority of
heterosexual people in factimmigrated from the Caribbean.
But within that population,within the subsets of that
(14:42):
population, are queer people whoalso immigrated very talented,
very qualified queer people whohad to leave Right Because of
homophobia.
They've had to seek asylum inNorth America and Europe.
And the irony of leaving yourhome as well is because, yes,
you might be queer there you'reexperiencing discrimination, but
when you move to Europe andNorth America, you are
(15:05):
experiencing intersectingaspects of discrimination.
So not only are you Quena, butyou're Black.
So whenever I talk aboutnotions of Quenas in the
Caribbean, we also have to talkabout the impact that it has on
the human capacity of theseislands.
A lot of talented people I mean, I left, I was not going to
(15:25):
stay there, there's no way Likemyself, even though we are a
minority, but we are a minoritywho would have been able to
contribute significantly to thedevelopment of our countries.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Yeah, Right, yeah, definitely, and I don't know if
you know Maurice Tomlin.
So, yes, civilized attorneyfrom Jamaica, and he's now in
Canada, married to his husband,but he's still fighting the
fight in Jamaica and theCaribbean to get rid of the
Boogary Law and legalizedsame-sex marriage.
(15:57):
It was just, I think, about amonth ago when something got
thrown out of the court becausethey wanted to put it on the
back burner and they don't wantto touch it.
So it's so sad to know that in2023, when we have organizations
like the United Nations thatare still supporting countries
(16:19):
with such strong homophobia intheir leadership, when they're
still supporting them, and then,on the other end, they're
fighting and say, oh, they'refighting against homophobia, so
it's a bigger picture because ifthose organizations will say
we're taking a stand and we needto make sure all citizens of
these countries are treatedfairly, then I believe that some
(16:39):
of these Caribbean islands willunderstand that they need to do
better.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
They're just not in that place yet, unfortunately,
and I think they still pander to.
Even.
There are some politicians inwho hold public office, who
might be progressive thinking,but because of the social
construct of these societies itwill not be politically
(17:04):
expedient for them to go againstthe grain.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Yeah, because it was just recently in Grenada where
24-year-old Josiah John TRobinson was killed.
He's a known member of theLGBTQ plus community.
He was killed in June and Ihaven't really heard a lot of
uproar about it or hear anythingabout the investigation.
So this goes right back to sayare they really taken in serious
(17:29):
when even crime are against theLGBTQ plus community in those
Caribbean countries?
Speaker 3 (17:34):
All right, and you're right about that.
I mean, in Grenada, what theydo is, for example, when a gay
person goes to report a crimeagainst them, the police
counter-threatens them and sayswell, we can arrest you under
the buggery laws, and sometimesyou have to jump through hoops
to get justice.
And even the language that theyuse when queer people come
(17:56):
forward to report crimes because, again, as queer people in the
Caribbean, violence happens andyou need the protection of the
state, and sometimes the statedoes not afford you the same
protection as it would affordeverybody else.
And so, in the context of JohnT's case, I mean, it doesn't
surprise me that they up to thispoint.
It's just very nonchalant, wow.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I'm sure they probably have some idea of what
happened, but nobody's gonna sayanything.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Yeah, and again, that is homophobia in and of itself.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
So here at Speerans, the Caribbean community here in
the United States, because, justlet me, we're very proud of
you're very proud of who you areand you know how do you are,
you're not afraid to speak truthand you're not afraid to fight
for the community or anyinjustice at all.
Have you experienced anydisrespect or any homophobia or
(18:52):
discrimination from theCaribbean community here in the
whole, in the States?
Speaker 3 (18:56):
I have been fortunate not to, because I've been very
selective in respect of thespaces in which I commune.
So if I know that there is aparticular space, especially
heteronormative spaces, like adance hall space, for example,
I'm just not going to go intothat space, right.
(19:16):
So I think the luxury of beinghere in the United States is
that I don't have to, I'm notobligated to be around my
indigenous Grenadian community.
I'm just not, which I think ina way is a good thing.
I find myself in spaces.
There are are some Grenadianspaces that I hang out with.
(19:38):
I mean very few, maybe one ortwo people who hold events, but
they are open minded, they arestraight people who are gender
affirming and who arenon-judgmental, and I would find
myself in those spaces.
But ordinarily fortunately forme, because I did not having
experience what I experienced inGrenada, there was no need for
(19:59):
me to come and subject myself tothat same experience here in
the United States.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
So sharing some experience, some of the stuff
that you experienced back home,if it's not too painful to speak
about.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Yeah, I mean I've been called names.
On the one I was walking on thestreet like back in the 90s
growing up in Grenada, thepopular song was Buju Bantans
Boom Bye, bye.
And I will be passing at a.
We call it a shop, I don't knowwhat you guys call it in
Jamaica, but it's like thebodega, it's like the corner
store type of concept.
(20:34):
But you pass and you have guyshanging out how it is in the
crib and they hang out aroundthe shops and so on and they
would deliberately just on awing and a press start playing
the boom bye song while I'mpassing and people would taunt
me and call me names and that'swhat I experienced a lot of.
I experienced cases where therewas one time a bus refused to
(20:55):
stop for me.
One time there was a guy whoactually attacked me on a bus.
One time I had to run out ofthe bus when the bus stopped.
So those are some of the thingsI experienced.
Even from a family member.
They put me in a chokehold onetime and said I heard this about
you, but you're looking foryour death, like literally.
So these were some of theexperiences I had.
(21:19):
I was teased, called sissy andI call all of these names by
people who I went to school with.
So it's something that it'ssomething that I experienced
there, and I had to decide formyself whether I would allow
those experiences to define whoI were to become or not, and I
decided the latter that it wasnot going to define.
(21:40):
In fact, it gave me the impetusand the motivation to leave in
August 2004.
And when I left in August 2004,that was one of the happiest
times of my life.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Wow.
So for those who do not knowwhat boom by by mean, so it's.
It was a very popular Jamaicansong in the nineties when
homophobia was really the thingin the Caribbean and this is
what my artist called BoudreBantane.
So Bum-bye-bye his song wascalled Bum-bye-bye in a bat-man
head, meaning gunshot in gay manhead.
(22:16):
So that song was actually beingpromoted all over the Caribbean
and, of course, in Danzaalspaces both in the United States
, Canada and in England and inEurope.
So it was a very popular song.
It probably I don't I cannot saybecause I don't know for sure,
if I reach number one, but Iwouldn't be surprised if it did.
And that's just to show how anartist can be so cruel and put
(22:40):
in these things in the minds ofpeople that they need to kill
people.
And to be honest with you, whenthat song was popular, I was
growing up in Jamaica and a lotof gay men were being beat,
killed and nothing happened.
None of those crimes were eversolved, because you know why,
that was the end time at thetime and the police didn't care,
(23:01):
the politicians didn't care,Community leaders didn't care,
the church is definitely didn'tcare.
I'm happy to know that song isbanding a lot of spaces, but if
you go to YouTube you can stilllisten to that song and people
still use that song to targetpeople of the LGBTQ plus
community.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Wow, yeah, this is a very violent.
Every time I hear that song, myheart sinks.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, I was going to ask what experiences in your
life led you to do the work thatyou're doing, but you were just
very clear about those thingsin Grenada that happened when
you left.
What was your family's response?
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Well, some of them were supportive.
I would say some weresupportive but others, others
were neutral.
They obviously, at that point Iwas not necessarily fully out,
shall we say.
So my motivation for leavingwas that I was going to study.
But of course that was that allof us, when we leave the
(24:02):
Caribbean, we try to pursuehigher educational opportunities
for those of us who can't getthose opportunities at home.
But one of my intrinsicmotivations was getting out of a
space where I was unable tolive an authentic life.
So that was that?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
How old were you then ?
When you came to the UK, I was24.
Okay, and did you have thatexperience?
When you came here, did youfeel like you were accepted?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I think that's relative to what spaces you were
in.
So I tell people, homophobia iseverywhere and anywhere and
just because you immigrate tothe United States doesn't mean
that you can be fully free.
I mean you look at the contextof hate crimes that continue to
plague our community.
You look at what's happening onthe political front in places
(24:52):
like Florida, for example, andthe craziness that's happening
there.
So, but there were spaces whereyou go.
For example, because I lived inNew York, I would go to West
Village and hang out.
So there were spaces where Ifelt comfortable.
But like I lived in New York,like nobody really cared, except
(25:13):
if you went into certainneighborhoods.
You had to.
You still had to be guarded,but I didn't go to those
neighborhoods.
So I've always been a veryhyper vigilant person in respect
of where and who I hang outwith, because for me it's all
about protecting my mentalhealth and self preservation at
the end of the day andrespecting that space in which
(25:33):
I'm in.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Yeah, and also you mentioned it's early on, but
coming from the Caribbean Islandas an immigrant, as being black
and being queer, it's aninteresting area that we have to
deal with it all and we get itfrom everybody Because, first
thing, you speak different, youare gay, you are black, there is
something, there's anassumption that people made of
(25:59):
us being foreigners and allthose stuff.
So it's a lot to deal with whenyou first migrate to a country
like America.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
And, of course, the challenges of adjusting.
As well, as a new immigrant,you're adjusting to this new
space, you're adjusting to newcultural dynamic, whether
seasonal depression, that's areal thing, yeah, yeah.
So it's this idea that, again,queer people's experiences are
only one dimensional.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
It's just not so.
Let's go back a little bit andtell us what is your earliest
queer memory.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Yeah, my earliest queer memory was it was in my
senior year of high school.
I believe that's when I juststarted developing feelings for
the same sex.
And it was a very conflictedtime for me mentally because I
went to a religious school, anall boys Catholic high school.
In the context of thatexperience, religion teaches you
that homosexuality is anabomination, it's a sin.
(26:56):
So you hearing these messagesas a young person, as a teenager
, it can certainly have a mentalimpact, an emotional impact on
you and that's why when peoplesay, oh, you choose to be gay or
you choose to be lesbian orwhatever it is, you don't come
to making that choice.
It just is just who you areattracted to and what you're
(27:19):
attracted to.
And that is the outside of thatexperience.
And I would say that there were, I had, there were many girls
who were around, but I was justnot attracted to girls, right,
you know, I was attracted to theathlete, the track athlete and
the football player.
So that was my earliestexperience.
Of course, it was also rackedwith a lot of guilt because in
(27:41):
my mind I was like thisaccording to what the Bible says
, this is just wrong, right, andthere is a lot of and there is
no one to talk to.
There was no one that you canconfide in because you don't
want to turn to what, what?
What does community look likein that context?
And the other thing is Grenadais a very small country,
(28:02):
population of 100,000 people.
There were people who werequote unquote visibly queer, but
they were not.
They did not declare themselvesas queer.
Even if you were hanging outwith those people will begin to
label you as also being queer,and that's one of the things
that I was afraid to do at thatage, because I did not want to
be labeled, right, you know, andpeople ask me questions too
(28:26):
when I was a teenager or are youthis, are you that?
And I would deny it because,again, what you try to do there
is that you're trying to confirm, right, you're trying to
confirm, you're trying not to beisolated, you're trying not to
be ostracized and discriminatedagainst and bullied and abused,
but you just eventually comeinto yourself.
Speaker 4 (28:48):
Yeah, I'm probably killed too.
You never know, and exactly.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
So was that your biggest concern when you
realized that you were queer?
Is that physical backlash?
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Yeah, that physical backlash, the fear of missing
out Now they call it FOMO, butthe fear of being isolated, the
fear of being bullied anddisrespected.
And, given the context of smallsocieties, people talk and
people gossip.
Yes, people give you looks.
They say, just like a smalltown, living in a small town,
similar type of deal, yeah, sothen, were there just like?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
because it sounded like from the way that you told
the story that there were peoplewho made that assumption about,
because you say, when you leftyou weren't fully out.
So where did the assumptioncome from?
Was it just like?
Speaker 3 (29:37):
The assumption comes from how you dress, how you show
up.
I didn't show up like the restof the guys with a particular
look.
My look was always ametrosexual look.
I didn't play sports Right, Idid not.
A pair quote, unquote masculineor trade, that's the term now
that they use.
(29:58):
I was not that.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
It's so sudden in the Caribbean, though, because they
would even associate it.
Being a very intelligent manthat writes properly will be gay
.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Exactly like your deportment, your comportment.
Depending on how you comportyourself, how you speak, they
label you based on thosesuperficial markers.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
Right, so what do you love most about being queer?
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Just the community.
I love community.
I love pride parade.
I love One.
One of the things I enjoyed inNew York was going to the balls,
but that was a lot of funBallroom.
It was just Amazing experienceand just seeing the beauty of
community.
There is a lot of beauty in thecommunity.
(30:46):
There's a lot of successfulpeople in the community.
That's what I really enjoyabout it.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Where and how did you really find your first
community?
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Well, I would say I found my first community in New
York among other Queer immigrantmen who were also on their new
immigrant journey as well,because a lot of us wanted to
understand how to navigate theimmigrant process as queer
people and what that looks like.
So that's where you findcommunity and then you begin to
(31:17):
discover Places, you begin tocome into your own because you
meet other queer people andyou're like wow, this feels like
a sense of belonging here.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, Sorry, and you may have already answered this
question in the situation Well,in a couple situations that you
mentioned about being attackedon the bus and things like that
but what has been your mostchallenging experience as a
queer person?
Speaker 3 (31:40):
there's still a lot of Microaggressiveness.
That happens, passiveaggressiveness.
That happens in some spaces Notat my job, I have to say.
I'm very fortunate with that.
But you go to like you might beinvited to a Barbecue or you
might be invited to On event andyou can tell that there is some
tension in the room.
(32:01):
People give you looks andthey'd be like what is he doing
here?
That type of reality is stillwhat I experience, and then just
a lot of the mental healthimpacts from seeing what happens
in places like Florida and youworry about is this going to
make its way to?
Is this going to become afederal policy?
So is that anxiety that youstill have in the back of your
(32:22):
mind?
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Yeah right, because hey, if, if we don't get our
time, vote in the nextpresidential election.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
It's over.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
Be the Trump or the Sanders, it's gonna be.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
I don't have a rough time because I'm telling you not
only Trump and the Sanders, butyou also have the Supreme Court
.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
True?
Yes, because they want to rollback everything.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Yeah, exactly, so you also have to confront that so
let's talk about your family.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
When and how did you actually come out to them?
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Well, I don't think I came out to some members of my
father.
I'm not out to everyone in myfamily because I don't think it
was necessary to come out tothem and honestly.
But the people that I've comeout to are people who I trust.
There is one aunt, some cousins, my mom is deceased so but I
think my mom knew my mom diedwhen I was a teenager.
(33:19):
So there were the people thatdid the pack came out there,
they were supportive and theywere like oh yeah, well, we knew
, like your relationship, thenno, it did not.
And like there is still sort ofin the critter.
Is this till Sort of a don'task, don't tell type of deal
(33:41):
with Caribbean families?
They would love you.
They would love you whensometimes let's say you
introduce in.
Not me, that didn't happen tome, but I know a friend of mine
who brought his partner toGrenada and the mom of one of
the guys.
She was so Happy to see thembut you know, the queer
(34:02):
conversation never came up aboutwho this person was, mm-hmm,
and it was just that.
It was just this very odd andthat's the thing in the
Caribbean, like it's there butthey don't talk about it.
It's so weird to me.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
I'm fortunate because I took my wife home in May and
parents came or sister came, andthe good thing is, in the
community where I grew up, whereI experienced homophobia, on 10
they had a big party for mewelcoming her and her family to
(34:38):
the family.
So that was great.
I was actually shocked by someof the people who came to the
party some of my aunts, uncles,cousins, just people that were
concerned, so strong Christian.
They showed up and everybodywas just showing us love and I,
honestly, going there, I wasthat man.
I want to what it's gonna be.
(35:00):
Our people got because mybrother Throwed a party and it's
back to them and they came.
And my father, who was one ofthe biggest Anti-gave, anti
LGBTQ plus person in the world,he was so welcoming, he loves my
wife now and everything and I'mlike well, what a shift.
But I still Habit in the back ofmy mind that there are still
(35:25):
homophobia there.
Right, because I have two thatdidn't show up and I hear back
that they were like that's it,it's still on it, go down, code
it.
And they don't really like mebecause they don't like code on.
Code it.
Right, so you can see worries,yeah, but they overwhelming
support that I got and the lovethat was shown.
(35:47):
I was like man.
It's amazing because I'm thatperson that's very vocal and
don't care about the country inKelowna.
I know I know.
I know Because I'm gonna standup for what I believe it, but it
was just so great to see thathappening In the little country
part of Jamaica where I grew up.
It was very nice to see thatthat people actually Starting to
(36:13):
open up their mind andunderstand that people love.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
But I do think, though I do think there is a
respectability politics elementhere that I observed having Gone
back to my home country severaltimes Since living here, and
one of the things I observedthat there is a socio-economic
element to this.
If you are a queer person fromthe gully, as you say in Jamaica
(36:38):
, or a queer person from theother side of town None,
uptowner, another Jamaicanreference but you are treated so
poorly as opposed to if you area queer person that has or has
the appearance of privilege,right, right, whether that's a
privilege of living in theStates or or North America, or
(37:00):
Canada or Europe, or whetherthat's a privilege of who in
your family, people tend totreat you differently.
I've seen that a lot.
Where the queer people theywould leave alone, they would
not say anything to them, but aqueer person from a certain part
of the community and you grewup poor, they treat you really
terribly.
So it's a dynamic that I'veobserved and it's something that
(37:24):
I think is worth interrogating.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
True, we need to do a study on it.
That's something that would bea good study to look on the
psychological part of it and whyis it.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
That's not socioeconomic differences in
acceptance.
Yeah, who's accepted and whoisn't?
Yeah, helen, what about yourfather or siblings?
What's that?
What does that look?
Speaker 3 (37:51):
like, or what did that look like?
I'm an only child, ok, and myfather was.
He died last year, ok, but hewas also a bit homophobic and it
was sort of the same kind ofdon't ask, don't tell dynamic.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
So what advice would you give to your younger self?
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Be brave.
I felt as if I was very timidand intimidated as a younger
person and I felt that I oughtto have taken much more risk,
professionally and personally.
So that's the advice I wouldgive to my younger self Just be
braver, nice.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Any last words for the audience.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Any last words.
Not everyone comes to anacceptance of who they are at
the same time.
Everyone's journey is differentand whatever journey you are on
, whatever journey you are on,you should embrace elements of
that journey, whether that is ifyou're not out yet.
(38:53):
No one should be forced to outyou.
You should not be forced to outyourself If you're out.
Embrace and be proud and happywith who you are.
Don't placate yourself, don'tlimit yourself just because you
care what other people will sayabout you, because at the end of
the day, they don't pay yourbills, they don't pay your
mortgage, they don't pay yourtaxes.
(39:14):
People's opinions don't matter.
If we were to subscribe topeople's opinions, we would all
be in poverty.
That's it for me.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
OK, ok, kellan, if people want to listen to the BUB
report, where can they listen?
Speaker 3 (39:32):
The BUB report is on YouTube and Facebook.
Ok, and Twitter.
So it's YouTube, facebookTwitter.
We post snippets on Instagramas well, and it's also aired on
a national TV in Grenada.
Ok, in the reporter.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
So on YouTube it's just the BUB report.
Yes, ok, I'll provide links inthe show notes.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
OK, all right, all right listeners.
There you have it, dr KellanBudd, the founder and host of
the BUB report.
He's an educator and he sits onthe Multicultural Commission
Board of the State's Attorneyand he has a passion for helping
the community.
Thank you, Dr Budd, for beingon a core understanding.
(40:14):
We really enjoy having you on.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Absolutely, it was my pleasure, thank you.
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