September 26, 2023 • 56 mins
Rahim, known for his dedicated work with communities he resonates with, initiates a riveting dialogue about how the evolution and interpretations of religious practices and sexuality can often disempower individuals. As we navigate deeper, we also delve into the cycle of guilt and shame that accompanies drastic life changes and the essence of open communication in relationships.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Rahim Thauer works as a psychotherapist, clinical
supervisor, facilitator, publicspeaker, session lecturer and
writer.
He began working in the HIV aidsector in 2008 and dedicated
over a decade to LGBTQ Muslimcommunity organizing.
He was welcomed as aninternational visiting scholar
with the South African Collegefor Applied Psychology, sacap,
(00:24):
for the 2021-22 academic yearand has taught as a lecturer at
multiple universities in Canada.
He's also an appointed fellowat the Bonham Center for Sexual
Diversity Studies at theUniversity of Toronto.
For his contributions to thefield of sexuality, he was a
co-editor and contributor to ananthology entitled Any Other Way
(00:44):
how Toronto Got Queer, whichwas shortlisted for the 2017
Toronto Book Awards.
Here's our conversation, hiRahim.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
So much for having me .
Speaker 1 (00:58):
So I read your bio.
You've a lot of interestingthings going on.
Let's start with your practice,your psychotherapist at
Effective Consulting andPsychotherapy Services.
First of all, what is thedifference between psychotherapy
and just therapy?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
That's a good question people ask all the time
.
So psychotherapy and therapyare quite similar.
But the language ofpsychotherapy is quite specific
and it's a controlled act.
So where I live in Toronto,Ontario, Canada each province in
the country regulatespsychotherapy differently.
(01:37):
A number of people could callthemselves a counselor, because
a counselor can be someone whoprovides peer support.
It could be somebody who doeslike clinical interventions If
you're doing counseling, thatyou could say or therapeutic
interventions, you could haveany kind of background and do
that.
But the controlled act ofpsychotherapy can be done by
(01:59):
people who have specific degreesor specific credentials and
they're regulated by a body.
So therapy, psychotherapypretty similar.
We use the word psychotherapyto be very specific because
that's the controlled act and itusually means that you are
using intervention methods tosupport somebody in something
specific like anxiety,depression, relationship,
(02:22):
conflict, self-esteem, anger,etc.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Okay, and do you have a specific specialty?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
When it comes to psychotherapy, people sometimes
will say they work with specificissues or specific populations.
So for me, the populations andthe communities I've worked in
are communities that I alsoidentify with.
So a lot of two SLGBTQIA pluspeople and some of the issues
(02:49):
that are quite prevalent or comeup a lot in our communities are
negotiated in openrelationships.
Relationship conflict,anxieties around dating,
loneliness about being single,struggles with aging, substance
use and body image are bigthemes that come up in the
therapy work I do, and a lot offolks in queer and trans
(03:14):
communities do spend a bit oftime talking about their
relationship to their familiesof origin.
Whether those relationships aredifficult or they're very good,
there's usually quite a bit tounpack there.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Right.
So yeah, I was going to ask ifbeing part of the queer
community affected your practice, but since that's primarily who
you served and that works outwell, right, have you always
wanted to be a therapist?
What led you to the field?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
That's a great question.
Earlier in my career, I thoughtI was going to be a teacher.
So toward the midway through myundergraduate degree I really
wanted to be a teacher.
And then I thought, okay, Iwant to be a psychotherapist.
And then I took a course thatgave me a window into some
social justice work and theoriesand I wanted to be a social
(04:09):
worker.
So my background is actually asa social worker, practicing as
a therapist, and what I loveabout it is that behind the mask
of each person, or what youassume about each person,
there's such a nuance, detail,story, right.
So if I meet a person in theworld and I'm like you know what
(04:32):
, I don't know if I would getalong with this person or I
think, oh, this person is socharismatic.
I also know that if that personwere my client, the story
behind the eyes, the personbehind the eyes, is going to
tell such a big story about howthat personality came to be, and
I find that incredible.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah, it's interesting I wasn't talking
about like a therapist.
For a while I wanted to be ateacher, but that was in high
school and then I found out howmuch teachers made it and I was
like no.
And then when I went to collegeI was deciding between being an
attorney and or I really wantedto be a prosecutor or a
therapist and I went the therapyroute and I did that for a
(05:14):
little while and then got intothe research side of things.
But it kind of comes backaround with.
My main interest has alwaysbeen like why do people do what
they do?
Like trying to understand humanbehavior.
So getting in this class asRome kind of kind of takes me
(05:36):
back to that and provides a lotof insight into what's going on
in the community.
So I really enjoy that piece ofit.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, I can appreciate that Like people are
endlessly interesting and weknow that so many people want to
be us, because all of socialmedia right now is about
understanding human behavior,right, I mean people are a bit
obsessed with like framingeverything as a trauma response,
which it can be, but it's niceto see like people are really
(06:06):
interested in understandingtheir own behavior and I think
that's a journey I'm also on.
Just because I'm a therapistdoesn't mean I know it, doesn't
mean I know everything aboutmyself, right, and it's really
cool to see the places your selfawareness can take you.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Absolutely so.
Another thing that I saw thatwas interesting about you is
that you are.
You said you dedicated over adecade to LGBTQ Muslim community
organizing.
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Sure, I think for a lot of us, when we do community
organizing and we want to createspaces for social interactions
and emotional support, or whenwe do organizing that is more
political, where we're doingadvocacy work, some of that is
(07:00):
for the community, our people,but another big part of that is
creating spaces that don't exist, so that we have somewhere to
be Right.
We're creating places forourselves in many ways, and I
think for a long time I've beeninvested in creating spaces
where queer and trans Muslimscould just hang out, be
(07:21):
themselves, work through theirstuff and not have to be
defensive about who they are.
And in most mainstream Muslimspaces I feel pretty agnostic or
atheist.
I'm like, eh, I'm not thatinterested in all of this, but
when I'm around other queerMuslims and there's a prayer or
there's an Eid celebration,there's something about my
(07:43):
cultural past that I get to leaninto and I get to do it with
other queer people whounderstand that the relationship
to the ritual, to the religion,is complex, and to me that's
like an entry point intosomething that is fundamentally
part of myself and I think thatcan be really beautiful and I've
(08:04):
been very interested inrecreating that space for other
people and so yeah, that's likea big part of me.
So sometimes people are like areyou a practicing Muslim or not
a practicing Muslim?
And For the most part I'm notpracticing, but most queer
people don't even ask me that.
(08:25):
They're just like oh yeah,you're one of us.
There's another level ofunderstanding about how you can
be without this categorization,because if a non-Muslim person's
asking me, are you practicingor not, they're not doing a
harmful thing and their intentis pretty pure, but more likely
(08:47):
than not, they're trying tofigure out if my queerness
precludes my Muslim-ness.
They're like oh yeah, you mustbe not so Muslim if you're queer
.
And I'm like I don't love thatframing, but I get where it
comes from for a lot of people,right, but that's the kind of
thing you don't necessarily haveto deal with or experience in
(09:09):
queer Muslim spaces, and so I'vebeen interested in cultivating
those.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Well, I am interested in how your first Muslim person
we've had a conversation with.
I can't even remember all thereligions, but lots of people in
different religious communities, even people who are leaders in
the community, who have theirown churches, and I'm always
very interested in how peoplereconcile their sexuality, their
queerness, with their religion.
(09:35):
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah, I think there are lots of reasons For people
to question and be critical oftheir faith, communities,
organized religion, doctrines,teachings, sermons, and I think
(09:57):
the larger question is what wasyour entry point into being more
critical about organizedreligion?
Cause lots of people havedifferent entry points, and for
me the entry point was mysexuality, where I was like will
I be accepted Theologically?
What does the Quran and what doMuslim scholars and leaders say
(10:21):
about people being gay?
And so that was a struggle forme.
However, I've met lots of queerMuslims for whom reconciliation
isn't a huge thing becausesexuality wasn't their entry
point into that kind ofexploration.
They're like, oh, I was morecritical when I was looking at
(10:44):
differing gender roles in thecommunity, or I've been more
critical about how certain kindsof practice haven't evolved
over time or how people practicein different places in the
world, and you're like, oh,that's really interesting.
So their entry point intocritical thinking it wasn't so
personal, it wasn't aboutacceptance, it was about like,
(11:05):
how could these things shiftover time so they were able to
maintain the development oftheir sexual identity and their
religious identity?
They saw them as like theseparallel things that just kind
of evolve over time but theydon't necessarily have to
intersect or cause like anexistential crisis.
Now I'm dramatic, so it causedme an existential crisis.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Well, I know a little bit about the religion, but not
extensively, and so I have twoquestions.
The first one what does theMuslim faith say about sexuality
?
Christianity says well, itdoesn't actually say this.
It's been interpreted and I cansee why people interpret it
(11:52):
that way.
But the Bible has beeninterpreted to say that
homosexuality is an abomination.
That is wrong.
Is there any of that languageanywhere in the Quran?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
So the part of the Quran that often gets cited is
the story of Lut, and that's asimilar story that you see in
the Bible.
All right, it's like I thinkabout these religious books as
having different volumes andadditions, so, and Islam, I
think, has one of, I would sayit's one of.
(12:26):
It's like a newer edition basedon chronology, and scholars
would say these particularstories are not about
homosexuality, they're aboutrape or they're about
inhospitable, they're about allthese other things.
So I'm not a theologian, I'mnot a scholar, but I would say
(12:48):
frankly, if our current dayreading of any religious text
cannot support someone'shumanity, someone else's
humanity, we're probablyinterpreting it incorrectly,
right?
So, like, whatever that faithis and whatever that reading is,
(13:12):
I think we need to interpret itknowing that it could have been
misused and weaponized againstpeople.
So if we're not centering socialjustice, if we are using an
interpretation to denounce ortake away someone's humanity,
we're probably reading it wrong,right.
And if you are subscribing tosomething that advocates for or
(13:37):
supports like punishing otherpeople, diminishing other people
, that's not a thing I wouldwant to be part of.
So if I meet Muslims andthey're like anti homosexuality,
they're not about my rights.
I'm like.
Whatever you've created there,that's not something I even want
to be associated with.
That's not for me, right.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
And that really needs to be the main tenant.
People need to recognize thatreligion.
The base should be about loveand acceptance.
Right yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
And I think there's such beautiful things that can
come from faith-basedcommunities.
Like people will meet everySunday or every Friday or every,
whenever.
Those people will lean on eachother in a beautiful way.
They will share thoughts, ideasabout the world.
If someone passes away, they'llgrieve.
If someone gets married or anew child comes into the world,
(14:30):
they'll celebrate and rejoice,and those are like beautiful
networks.
But when those communities andnetworks become so insular that
you worry about what everybodyelse is doing, about what
everybody else thinks, and youcan't be your own self, then I
would say it's working againstyou, right?
Then we got to really rethinkwhat our participation in those
(14:52):
communities is doing for us,because it could be harmful.
True.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So my other question is something that I've always
wondered about, For any religion, where they are very much about
separating men and women andthere's not traditional dating,
there's not traditionalinteractions.
It's very much here's the malecommunity and they interact with
each other, and here's thefemale community and they
interact with each other, andthen only when you're set to get
(15:20):
married do the two meet.
So that is very much a breedingground for queerness for you to
be promoting these very separatecommunities and interacting and
getting love and support fromwithin separate gender
identities Is that a thing or amI making that up?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
No, look, I don't think you're making that up.
I think there's a number ofcontexts where, like staunch
heterosexuality and heterosexistlike organizing of people then
creates opportunities for peopleto explore themselves, right.
So, for example, world Wars,men leave and they are
(16:02):
conscripted to go to war.
Women are at home or those arelike there's a big gender
segregation around labor andwhat your role in society is.
But when that marriage?
When those people are sociallysanctioned to be in different
places, they now get to exploredifferent parts of themselves,
right, if we think about peoplegetting to an age where they go
(16:26):
away, it's very common in ourcultures, like North American
culture, that like you get to auniversity college age, you move
away from home.
To me that's like that is likea culturally sanctioned time for
you to be able to explore whoyou are outside of your family.
Right, first year university Itell everybody it's not about
your academic like you need topass, but that is a time where
(16:47):
you are for the first time goingto get to explore who you are.
And so when it comes toreligious communities, when
people are kind of divided inthese gendered ways, absolutely,
I've had lots of therapyclients who say to me that they
had same-sex relations with boysfrom their class or a second
(17:08):
cousin or something like that,and that's very normal for them.
The challenge is that if youstick to the heterosexual frame
too rigidly, you get this likesanctioned period of exploration
and then you're expected toretract and people frame it as
(17:29):
that was my time to have fun.
That was my time to dosomething else.
Now I need to settle down.
Now I have to revert back tothe expectations of my family.
So, for example, I had a clienttell me I'm having fun with
guys now, but I'm in my early20s.
I have to get marriedeventually because, like that's
for my parents, I owe them thatbecause they've given me so much
(17:50):
and I'm like oof, that's a lotto unpack, because you're seeing
this time away from home inyour early 20s as a time for
exploration.
But then there's thisexpectation that you will feed
into this other thing later onand if you're going to resist
that or unlearn that, that'sgoing to be a painful process.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Right, right, and it's very unfortunate because
now you're doing it for yourparents.
So you're getting into amarriage that's not based on
love or what you want and you'renow destroying multiple people
there.
Right, because you're not happy, the home is not going to be
happy.
Then you may bring children inthe equation to grow up in a
(18:30):
dysfunctional family justbecause of religious belief or
just because that's the quote,unquote norm that you're
supposed to follow.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, there's a couple of things you bring up
there, kassi, that makes methink about motivations for
marriage.
I think some people will say Iwant to get married now because
of age.
I'm in a certain headspacewhere I'm ready, like commitment
, and I want to move forward andI want to make this thing
happen.
And I think people do that evenwithout a range of marriage.
(18:59):
Lots of people hit like theearly 30s and they're like I got
to make this thing happen.
Other people come from cultureswhere a range of marriage is
normalized and it's reallyinteresting to see how some of
those do work out, because Ithink it's a different system
and function of the marriage.
I think the biggest problem iswhen people think that either a
(19:19):
heterosexual marriage or havingchildren is going to solve a
problem or a discrepancy.
So if you're like I've beenhaving sex with people of the
same gender and I'm thinkinggetting married is going to help
me be more disciplined, somehowit's going to help me focus my
(19:40):
life, it frames all of yourqueerness or all of the same sex
stuff as like deviant andchildlike and exploratory, and
then you're doing the adult,responsible, discipline thing to
get into a heterosexualmarriage and, yeah, that is so
selfish, it's going to harmmultiple people.
(20:01):
So I agree I'm like that is.
I do have some strong feelsabout that.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Exactly Like I always tell my wife and I know a lot
of people probably disagree withme at all.
They say what's the differencewith having a child out of
wedlock than having a child andthen getting divorced a few
years later Because some peopleare all, you're having children
and you're not married, right.
But those same people that aremarried and say, oh, I'm married
(20:28):
now, I'm having children, a fewyears later you're divorced.
It's a no.
Not only you're bringing up thechild in a single parent
household, you're bringing upthe child also in a hostile
situation, because most timeswhen people get divorced, the
relationship is sour, right.
So my thing is I strongly doand I know a lot of listeners
(20:51):
may disagree and think I'm crazyfor saying this but I do not
agree that you have to getmarried to our children because
it's it's some of your life.
Oh, I'm married and I need tohave a child.
And then a lot of heterosexualpeople they are getting married
and they're having children withpeople that are not even fit to
have children, and people thatare not even can't take care of
(21:14):
themselves, much as tofinancially, emotionally take
care of a child.
But you get married and have achild, and that's why we have so
much dysfunctionality in oursociety today.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, I would totally agree.
And equipping people with thetools to plan, think about the
future.
I think that is what results inhealthy children, right or
healthy environments forchildren.
It could be a single parent, itcould be co-parents, it could
be two or three parents, like.
(21:46):
It could be so many differentconfigurations.
It could be like there's goingto be a community of people that
raises this child, but I thinkpeople having the tools and the
wherewithal to plan what that'sgoing to look like is very
important.
We're lying on this idea that,like, if we get married, then
that structure itself willsupport good parenting is just
not good science.
(22:06):
Like, if two people are notgetting along, they don't like
each other that much.
They got married because theythought their biological clock
was ticking, like.
I don't see that as enough of afoundation to move forward.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I would agree with you 100%, and I just wanted to
comment on one thing, going backto what you said about that
time in your 20s of exploringsame-sex relationships and
things, and then then moving tothis okay, now I need to be
responsible and disciplined andmy life needs to look this way.
Well, we all know how wellrepression and what's the word
(22:44):
I'm looking for.
So go back to dieting, thinkingabout being disciplined and
responsible.
We all know that poweringthrough something and having
willpower to stick to somethingthat you don't really want to do
or don't really enjoy, we justdon't really have the capacity
to do that for very long.
So you're setting yourself upfor failure and you're setting
(23:05):
the person that you're with fora heartbreak and heartache
because you are essentially, ifprior to them, that your story
was.
You were exploring and youactually enjoyed that those same
sex relationships.
You're really setting yourselfand your partner up for a
terrible situation because it'snot going to last.
It's not sustainable.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
I agree.
I really like that.
You brought up this analogy ofthe dieting right.
There's an Instagram handlethat I follow that's called diet
starts tomorrow, and I thinkit's so funny because people
every day are like I'm going to,like they have a regimen of
some kind of plan and they'relike, okay, we're going to start
(23:46):
that tomorrow because I alreadybroke the rules today.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
And it's funny, but every day in our lives, that is
how a lot of our psyches work.
Right, I'm going to make thechange, but I'm going to make it
tomorrow.
Well, the thing is, the changeyou're trying to make is too big
or not possible or notsustainable.
It's not something you want todo, it doesn't bring you joy,
but it's a thing you think youshould do.
(24:11):
Yes, and when the should getsinto the equation, it brings up
a lot of stuff around failureand shame, right.
So let's take a step away fromdiets.
And we think about somebody whois in heterosexual marriage, but
they're having extramaritalrelations and it's not
(24:32):
negotiated, it's not consensualnonmonogamy.
It's like I'm a gay or bi manand I am having sex with other
men outside of my marriage and Ikeep thinking each time I do it
, I'm going to stop after thisone.
So you frame it as, like, thecheat day of your diet, or you
(24:52):
frame it as a slip in theregimen of your whatever your
keto regimen is, and then you'relike, okay, I'm going to do
this again tomorrow.
So it's full of shame andfailure and then probably guilt,
right, for like what the impactcould be on somebody else.
That's a really hard existenceat that point right.
So you're harming somebody elseor you're not honest with
(25:15):
somebody else and you're in aconstant guilt and shame spiral.
And I would say to myself ifthat person, especially if
they've grown up in a religioushome, is this the kind of
torture God or a higher beingwould want me to have in my life
?
Should it be this hard to beadherent to a faith?
(25:35):
It shouldn't be this hard to behappy, in addition, to like
just the basics of having enoughwork, having enough money to
retire, the basic needs forsurvival in addition, should
there be this much moral turmoilto just get through life?
Because that doesn't sound veryreasonable.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Agree, 100%.
Yeah, so moving on, tell usabout the conference Sex Down
South.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yeah.
So I first went to Sex DownSouth I think it was in 2018.
And every year they introducenew keynote speakers that they
also call their sex celebs.
I got to be the sex celeb forthat particular year, but they
always honor their past sexcelebs, so that's kind of a nice
(26:23):
title to get on.
What's the criteria?
You don't know what thecriteria is specifically.
I think if you are doing likesome kind of cool work or you've
like written some things,you've spoken on certain topics,
you're an educator and thatcatches the attention of the
organizers, they might then callon you to say hey, we've heard
(26:47):
about some of your work.
We'd love to invite you to be akeynote speaker and you would
be honored as a sex celeb thisyear, and then it's like you
become part of their communityin that way, which is really
nice.
So Sex Down South is a mix ofsexuality educators, sexuality
and pleasure professionals,people who do relationship and
sex therapy, coaching andeducation.
(27:10):
There's lots of folks who dokink, bdsm workshops.
There are some people who areperformers, like burlesque
performers, some people who arein the porn industry, other
people who are therapists.
So it's really quite a range ofpeople coming together and
offering like a slew ofworkshops, education, lots of
(27:33):
hands-on training, and it's likea sexy conference.
There's like a labyrinth and adungeon where you could go and
play.
There's rules that you wouldfollow to be respectful to
people, and it is a lot of queerpeople of color.
It's based in Atlanta and it'sa mix of queer and straight
folks, which is reallyinteresting.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
So you said it's in Atlanta.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Yes, so you all have to go next year and we're going
to meet there because it's sucha cool conference.
It's such a cool conference.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah, definitely.
I had actually heard about itlike just before the conference
was taking place and so didn'thave a chance to talk to you
about it and we were bothworking and so didn't have a
chance to go.
But we would definitely havethat on our agenda for next year
.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Yeah, it sounds pretty cool yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
And this past year I didn't end up presenting
anything.
I just took it as anopportunity to check it out and
just meet people and be a bitless in the limelight, because I
was going to do apre-conference workshop and it
didn't quite work out.
But next year I plan to presentsome cool stuff that I've been
working on, so I'm alreadyexcited about that.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Can you give us a sneak peek about what those
things are?
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah, you know, I've been thinking for a long time
about how to talk about somevery specific things that people
bring up to me in a sex therapycontext yes, more workshop kind
of format.
So I want to create a space forguys or people with penises to
(29:07):
talk about things likedifficulty maintaining erections
, anxiety about earlyejaculation or delayed
ejaculation, things around whatI would call sexual mythology
scripts that a lot of guys worryabout to get caught up in, like
how long you're supposed tolast in a sexual context, how
(29:30):
long you're supposed to maintainan erection, and expectations
people put on us or on guys ingeneral about sex and sexuality,
and so I really want to diginto some of the things I see in
a one-on-one beauty context toa more workshop format, and I
think it's a needed space.
I don't know how much interestthere will be, but I do know
(29:51):
that a lot of guys struggle totalk about this stuff, and so I
think I want to create a spacearound that.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
That's really cool, that's really amazing.
I don't have that problem, butwhen it breaks I just go back to
the store again the sex storeto get another one, perfect.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
I love that.
And that's how we have to thinkLike my body's not doing what I
wanted to do right now.
What's going on in my head?
How do we shift gears Right?
Like that's just doing a thing.
I'm going to shift gears and dosomething else.
The second workshop I want todo, which I hope y'all attend,
is going to be on attachment andattachment self-awareness.
(30:38):
So lots of people are talkingabout attachment styles these
days, like are you avoided, areyou anxious, are you ambivalent?
And I want to do a workshopwhere people get to assess their
own attachment style and thentalk about what it means for
them in the context ofrelationships and communication
and dating.
When do you shut down, when doyou get clingy, when do you not
(31:00):
want to talk to your partner,and so that will be more for a
broader audience.
So those are the two that Ithink I want to do next year.
I'm seeing that's like a need,yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Definitely, definitely, yeah.
People understanding themselvesand, in doing so, are able to
show up better for theirpartners and show up better in
their relationships is reallyimportant.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
The question that I have is and it's a rhetorical
question, because everybody mayhave a different answer what
does clingy and attachment andneed?
It looks like To be honestbecause some people are, the
moment you try to want to beclose to them, that think you're
clingy, and some people, likepeople close to them, always
(31:42):
want to be around them.
So it's it's a little bitsubjective.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yes, right.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
It's very subjective on how you look on those things.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah, totally so.
I would say our attachmentstyles look different in
different contexts, with friends, our family of origin, or
siblings, our romantic partners,because we have different ideas
about what those people aregoing to expect of us.
So if people expect more thanyou can give, you might find
(32:15):
yourself getting a bit distant,right so?
And the use of the word clingyhas become kind of stigmatized,
hasn't it?
And so, to reframe it, I wouldsay there's going to be some
people who have a need forreassurance and closeness, and
that reassurance and closenessmight get scary for other people
(32:36):
.
So the way you ask for it isnot going to be in direct
communication sometimes, andthat can feel a bit aggressive
for somebody else, because theymight think, oh, this person is
getting very upset that I amgoing out or I'm not spending
enough time with them, butthey're not telling me that
they're demanding something else, and so it turns into a kind of
(32:59):
fight about something else.
At the core of it, the personwho's more anxious is.
Underlying it, there's a fearof losing the other person.
And for the person who's moreavoidant, who's like reacting to
this ask for closeness, theirfear is usually about losing
(33:20):
themselves, and so, if we canname these two things, we can
start to talk about how theyoperate in the communication,
because by the time it comes outas a conflict, it's about doing
the dishes, making the bed,date night, walking the dog.
Very often it's about divisionof labor in the house, and the
(33:43):
thing is, it's not really aboutthat, but the person who's upset
is saying the other personisn't doing enough, but what
they really want is for theother person to show closeness
and a commitment to the lifethey're creating together.
Right, right, it comes from aplace of needing closeness.
All right, I'm seeing reactionsfrom the two of you, so I'm
(34:05):
curious about what you think.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yes, the audience doesn't see, since we're not a
video or audio only, but yes,cassie raised her hand in the
needing a lot of reassurance andfor us it's not indirect.
She very much will be like sohow do you feel about this, what
do you think about this?
And I'm like oh, my God, we'vealready talked about this, I
(34:29):
already talked about this, Ialready told you, don't you know
?
And so we kind of all say bloodheads, but we're on opposite
ends of the spectrum when itcomes to that, because I don't
need a lot of reassurance withlike I know that you love me,
you do all these things, I'mgood and fine.
And she's like yeah, but do you?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Right, because when you start falling off, then you
know, you start thinking, okay,what exactly is going on?
Because I'm very direct withwhat I need, because I've made a
mistake before and I'm notmaking anything and I'm going to
tell you what I need, sothere's not going to be any
surprises.
You know, because that's what Ithink.
Sometimes people don't say whatthey want and expect the other
(35:12):
person to know what they want,and if I feel like something is
changing, I'm going to be likeOkay, what's going on?
This not happening?
Why is it not happening?
Is there something wrong?
But I need a recurrence andunfortunately I'm that one.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
So, cassie, in your relationship, what makes you
feel closest to Angelica?
So it's not.
I'm not talking about explicitreassurance like hey, babe, I'm
here for you, but what is itthat she does?
Or what are the situations orsettings where you feel most
(35:49):
reassured or closest to her?
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Words are for information.
A phone call when I'm not home,a text message, just basic
stuff, basic day to day stuff.
A hug, a random kiss, justlittle gestures, right, and
those things, yes, they made mefeel close to her and keep me
abreast and what's going on.
It's not one big thing, it'sjust little things.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Okay, so lots of gestures and like you want to
know what's going on in her day,and that seems like a
reasonable ask, and so, angelica, is that hard for you?
Speaker 1 (36:25):
It is.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Tell me why.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Because I'm just like I'm busy working and I'm
thinking about you, but I don'twant.
I'm not a person who likes totalk on the phone a lot, and so
I don't want to call and just belike hey, what are you doing?
I have a break.
But if I have a break I justwant to like look at TikTok or
watching a click show orwhatever it's like.
(36:47):
I want to decompress and like Iguess I think about her and I
know those are the times whereshe would like for me to text
and be like hey, love you,thinking about you, but that's
just not my personal, not mypersonality.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Right.
But it's also not mypersonality to sit on the couch
every day and watch TV.
I'm more if an extrovert wantto be out there.
But I made an adjustment forher because I love her.
I want to show that I'm willingto not be at the bar, I'm
willing to not be out there inthe community to 24 seven,
community activism and all ofthat to make sure she feels like
(37:29):
I put her at the forefront.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Fair.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
I watch more TV in the 12 years that we've been
together, that I've been myentire life.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Yeah, fair.
So this idea of compromise andthe possibility of adjusting has
been put on the table.
So for Angelica, the thinkingmight need to be around how can
I think about sharing gestureswith my partner as part of my
decompression routine, asopposed to thinking that it is
(38:04):
taking something from me,Because if I don't do that, my
partner gets agitated and thenthere's going to be more to
decompress from Right.
So you're, in a way, Angelica,by not being able to share the
gestures, you might be creatingmore angst in your partner.
That then needs you to get morerespite and a break.
(38:27):
So there's a cycle like apursuer, a distancer.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Dynamic.
So you might have to say toyourself I want to decompress.
I'll send my babes a quickmessage to let her know just on
break about to do this thinkingof you, and then I can really
decompress, because then I don'tfeel like I have done her dirty
For Cassie.
(38:53):
On your side, there is someattention you might have to give
to your past and your present.
So you said before, I have notmade my needs known in the past,
and then did it work out orthere was a consequence, so I
have to make my needs known now,right?
So to me that sounds likethere's a bit of fear that if
(39:15):
I'm not explicit and I don'treiterate it over and over,
things could go very badly.
So for you, you might have toremind yourself that this
particular relationship isdifferent.
In some ways, the need has beenarticulated.
This person has heard it betterthan that last person, and so I
(39:36):
might not need to repeat it,because I think there's a fear
on your end that if I don't sayit over and over, something bad
could happen.
Would you agree?
That's true?
Speaker 3 (39:45):
It is.
It is Raheem, we love you whyare you taking clients?
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Come on, this is perfect.
You have hit the nail on thehead.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
But you are amazing at what you do yes, and it's not
confrontational.
You are great at what you doyes.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yes.
So once you've heard it, we gota little mini session and have
gotten some things to work on inour relationship.
So if you are taking clients,Raheem is definitely the person
to turn to.
So we're going to switch gearsa little bit and dig into you
(40:26):
personally for our littlelightning round here.
What is your earliest queermemory, either thoughts or
experience that you had?
Speaker 2 (40:35):
My earliest queer memory would be being on a road
trip to Florida with my cousin'sfamily and having so much fun
playing with a Barbie doll'shair.
I was obsessed.
It was a Pocahontas doll and Iloved how long her hair was and
(40:59):
I would just be brushing it overand over and it was just such a
soothing experience and at thetime I didn't think there's
anything gay about it.
But now I look back and I'mlike, oh, there's something very
queer about it.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Okay, all right.
Yeah, that doll was reallypretty yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
A brown girl and I'm just brushing her hair.
Obviously, I was like Iidentify with this.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
Right yeah.
So when you realized you werequeer, what was your biggest
concern?
Raheem?
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Well, I was really realizing later in high school,
so grade 10, 11.
And I think my biggest concernswere like what will my life be
and will I have a family orcommunity afterwards?
Like how can I still be part ofmy religious community, for
example, if I like somebodythat's a boy?
(41:57):
I just didn't have any modelsto show me what that could look
like.
And so my biggest concerns werenot having a family community
anticipating rejection, but alsolike what does it mean to me to
like guys, like I had no ideathat relationships were possible
(42:17):
and not knowing where I wouldfit in the world, and a lot of
anxiety about what the futuremight hold or bring.
Or my main concerns right.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
So now that you've been in this space for a while,
what do you love most aboutbeing queer?
Speaker 2 (42:31):
I love that.
For me, queerness has been Notjust about attraction.
It's been an entire Politicsabout a way to look at the world
and challenge the status quo ofeverything.
And so what I love about beingqueer is that I get to make my
(42:52):
own rules.
I get to think about how I wantto live my life.
I think about Dogmatic scriptsand ways of being, and I could
be like oh yeah, I want to trythat or that's not gonna work
for me, and I really like theidea that I get to make my life
what I want it to be.
Right like I can have chosenfamily, I can have my biological
(43:14):
family, I can live alone.
I was just telling a friend ifI were to be in a serious
relationship again and I haven'tbeen in one in a few years now
that I might not want to livewith my partner, and that friend
said, oh, really, like, do youthink it would be a serious
relationship then?
And I'm like yeah, I think itcould be.
I think I get to decide rightright so for me, I'm thinking
(43:38):
about queerness as how to thinkabout life and what the
opportunities and options arefor how to live it, and to me
that's extremely liberating.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yes, right it is.
And on the flip side of that,what's been your most
challenging experience as aqueer person?
Speaker 2 (43:55):
I think there's a kind of isolation that comes
from just certain moments ofwhen you're living your truth,
but it's not necessarily seen byother people in the world and
you just don't have the samekind of built-in supports.
(44:18):
Now, I don't know if straightpeople experience this like I
have no idea, but I'm justthinking like, as an example,
somebody who has who's marriedlives with their partner and has
a kid or two.
They are gonna go home to agroup of people every day right
and They've got like astructured network or group of
(44:39):
people that they're gonna theyknow they're gonna spend their
weekend with.
So if my life looks kind ofdifferent and I'm like I'm
traveling, I'm at conferences,I'm gonna go work remotely in
another country for a few months, on the outside a lot of that
looks really fabulous and it is.
But I'm gonna have lots ofmoments of loneliness, of like,
(44:59):
where I'm just like what is mylife?
Will I meet somebody?
Am I making choices?
That's gonna make it harder fora long-term relationship.
I'm going out sightseeing andtraveling alone and sometimes
it's lovely and other times I'mlike could be nice If I did this
with somebody else.
So there's those moments ofisolation where you're living
your truth and it's fabulous butit's also isolating.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yeah, I can see that it is.
Speaker 3 (45:26):
I've been there before.
A lot of people really don'tunderstand that it's not about
as you say.
People see that thing, oh,that's nice, they've been alone
doing everything by yourself.
But then he gets old.
He gets really old.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
Yes, it does.
So I think to that end.
We were talking aboutattachment styles before.
I Am more of an avoid, anattached person, and so, even
though I have a big network offriends, asking for help or
asking for something in a momentof vulnerability can be hard
for me, and so I'm starting tolearn I can't just hang out with
(46:08):
friends when I'm in a good mood.
I need to call on people evenwhen I'm feeling sad, and I
don't have to tell them like I'msuper sad but I could say I'm
feeling kind of I Could do witha hangout today.
Are you free or do you want tojust chill and come watch TV
with me?
There's like learning how toask to be social or in the
presence of others when thingsare feeling a bit harder.
(46:30):
It's something I'm learning todo more of.
Right Doesn't come easy.
Speaker 3 (46:36):
It sure doesn't, yeah .
So right in, when and how didyou come out to your family?
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Wow.
I came out to my family in thesummer of 2007, so quite a few
years ago.
I was 22 at the time.
I'm now 38.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
I.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Came out to my family , my parents in particular, with
my brother's help.
So I came out to my brotherseveral years before that and
he's always been a really goodstraight ally and he helped me
prepare.
And the time that I decided todo it was right after I returned
(47:18):
from an international exchangeprogram in Singapore.
I was in Singapore for a yearand and then I decided I I think
I got like an additional levelof exploration, really far from
my people and my community, andthat was really formative for me
(47:39):
Because I got to realize we allneed to have an experience when
we can be who we want to bewithout worrying about what
other people will think.
I and who would I be if I didn'tknow anybody around to me?
And I think that's why I liketo travel a lot now, because you
get to make and remake yourselfand then you bring that
(48:00):
learning home with you.
So that was the time that Idecided to do it and it was just
gonna be a month or two beforeI had to go back to school and I
was living away from home.
So it was kind of good becausethere's a couple weeks with the
fam and then I'm going to be onmy own.
There's built-in distance andit didn't go particularly well.
(48:25):
It was quite hard but I have tosay my Parents emphasis and
value on family and the familyunit and keeping it together and
prioritizing one another Wasreally it really shone through
because there was no talk ofdisowning me or disrespecting me
(48:47):
.
They didn't get me.
It felt really difficult forthem like like tears, anguish,
sadness, like it was a lot.
But Over the years Things gotbetter and I don't want to
discount how hard it was,because it was hard but it got
better and so that taught me alot about how much love and
(49:13):
commitment to love and familyCan supersede Differences in
understanding and lifeexperience.
So that's been a good lifelesson for me right.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
Nice.
Yeah, that's really nice tohave that family support, Really
nice.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
They never once weaponized religion against me,
so I also really do appreciatethat.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
What about that?
Your extended family and thelarger Muslim community?
Did you experience any form ofdiscrimination or Rejection?
Speaker 2 (49:48):
rejection for the most part it was really
surprising.
I didn't.
My cousins have been really.
They've been all really great.
I'm sure they all had their ownlearning process and trajectory
, but like it didn't affect mepersonally because they probably
did that Processing somewhereelse.
There were a couple of momentswhen I was in my last long-term
(50:09):
relationship when it wasuncertain whether I could bring
my partner to family gatheringsand there was some I Wouldn't
say discrimination, but tensionabout what people would think
and what it would look like andeven for me and my partner, like
how we would feel, like we.
(50:30):
I remember we came home from awedding that happened in my
family and we just like Fell onthe couch and we were exhausted.
The day wasn't even that tiring, but it was that level of
anxiety you have all day frombeing in a straight space where
you worry about what otherpeople are thinking.
And the other people didn't doanything wrong.
But the wedding took place at amosque and I take my white
(50:52):
boyfriend.
And it's like it was a lotemotionally for us and you guys
get that.
You know what that's like.
A full day being in a queerspace versus a full day being in
a straight space and Then afull day being in a straight
space with your straight familylike that does a different thing
to your psyche.
It's hard.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Yeah, yeah, my wife made an observation recently
when we were in a queer space ata queer event.
I used to consider myself anintrovert.
I know I'm a say, I'm anambivert.
But she said you're not thatintroverted when you're in queer
spaces.
And it took me a back and Ithought about.
I was like You're right, I feelmore accepted, I feel more
(51:33):
comfortable, I feel more likeit's a more familial space and
so I am more relaxed and open totalk and whatever.
So, yes, there, theredefinitely is, even if it's not
Over anxiety.
But there can be some tensionwhen you're in a space where
you're not sure how well you'llbe received for being yourself
(51:56):
right.
So what advice would you giveto your younger self looking
back now?
Speaker 2 (52:02):
the advice I would give to my younger self is to
keep dreaming big and Don'tworry if you don't see a clear
path laid out for you.
You can create that path as yougo along and and you don't have
(52:23):
to know where it leads Justkeep creating it and building it
and it'll take you somewherebeautiful.
And Don't dim your lightbecause some people would think
you're too much or you're tooloud.
You will quickly drop thepeople who think it's too much
and you will surround yourselfwith people who think it is Just
what they need right and that'sbeautiful very nice.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
This has been a great conversation.
I'm coming away feelingenergized and In a nice peaceful
, as a best or the right word,but in a nice, even space.
So I really appreciate theconversation.
Any last words for the audience.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Well, we talked about so many things, so if I were to
give a last word, I would sayeveryone, go out and learn about
your attachment style and tryto be thinking about what it
means for you in your daily life, in your different
relationships, to.
It's okay if you're single andNot in a relationship, because
(53:26):
there's a lot of pressure for usto get partnered up.
I also wanted to tell peoplewho are Figuring out their own
path and that doesn't fit ascript or a mold, but that's
okay and it can be so beautifulto do that.
I also want to tell folks thatthey should come to sex down
south next year.
Yes and yes.
And if anybody wants to learnmore about my work or hire me to
(53:46):
be a speaker, they can find allmy stuff just by going to lady
at a van.
Calm and yeah, I am thankfulthat I could have this
conversation with you folks.
Speaker 3 (53:58):
Yes, great conversation, rahim.
So if someone wants to get intouch with you for you to Be
their therapist, because you'reso awesome at what you do, how
can they get in touch with you?
Where can they find you to booka consultation?
Speaker 2 (54:14):
if you go to lady at a van calm, it'll take you to
all my links so you can get mywebsite, my email address, my
LinkedIn and then someone canjust shoot me an email and we
can talk about what serviceswould look like.
Speaker 3 (54:28):
Listen, there you have it.
Rahim tower is aPsychotherapist, a public
speaker, a clinical supervisor,and Rahim is a is an organizer
in the LGBTQ Muslim communityworking to bridge that gap.
Thank you, rahim.
It was so wonderful to have youon a queer understanding
unforgiving.
My wife and I are mini sessionanytime, take care folks.
Speaker 1 (54:52):
Thank you, you too,
Rahim Thauer works as a psychotherapist, clinical
supervisor, facilitator, publicspeaker, session lecturer and
writer.
He began working in the HIV aidsector in 2008 and dedicated
over a decade to LGBTQ Muslimcommunity organizing.
He was welcomed as aninternational visiting scholar
with the South African Collegefor Applied Psychology, sacap,
(00:24):
for the 2021-22 academic yearand has taught as a lecturer at
multiple universities in Canada.
He's also an appointed fellowat the Bonham Center for Sexual
Diversity Studies at theUniversity of Toronto.
For his contributions to thefield of sexuality, he was a
co-editor and contributor to ananthology entitled Any Other Way
(00:44):
how Toronto Got Queer, whichwas shortlisted for the 2017
Toronto Book Awards.
Here's our conversation, hiRahim.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
So much for having me .
Speaker 1 (00:58):
So I read your bio.
You've a lot of interestingthings going on.
Let's start with your practice,your psychotherapist at
Effective Consulting andPsychotherapy Services.
First of all, what is thedifference between psychotherapy
and just therapy?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
That's a good question people ask all the time
.
So psychotherapy and therapyare quite similar.
But the language ofpsychotherapy is quite specific
and it's a controlled act.
So where I live in Toronto,Ontario, Canada each province in
the country regulatespsychotherapy differently.
(01:37):
A number of people could callthemselves a counselor, because
a counselor can be someone whoprovides peer support.
It could be somebody who doeslike clinical interventions If
you're doing counseling, thatyou could say or therapeutic
interventions, you could haveany kind of background and do
that.
But the controlled act ofpsychotherapy can be done by
(01:59):
people who have specific degreesor specific credentials and
they're regulated by a body.
So therapy, psychotherapypretty similar.
We use the word psychotherapyto be very specific because
that's the controlled act and itusually means that you are
using intervention methods tosupport somebody in something
specific like anxiety,depression, relationship,
(02:22):
conflict, self-esteem, anger,etc.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Okay, and do you have a specific specialty?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
When it comes to psychotherapy, people sometimes
will say they work with specificissues or specific populations.
So for me, the populations andthe communities I've worked in
are communities that I alsoidentify with.
So a lot of two SLGBTQIA pluspeople and some of the issues
(02:49):
that are quite prevalent or comeup a lot in our communities are
negotiated in openrelationships.
Relationship conflict,anxieties around dating,
loneliness about being single,struggles with aging, substance
use and body image are bigthemes that come up in the
therapy work I do, and a lot offolks in queer and trans
(03:14):
communities do spend a bit oftime talking about their
relationship to their familiesof origin.
Whether those relationships aredifficult or they're very good,
there's usually quite a bit tounpack there.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Right.
So yeah, I was going to ask ifbeing part of the queer
community affected your practice, but since that's primarily who
you served and that works outwell, right, have you always
wanted to be a therapist?
What led you to the field?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
That's a great question.
Earlier in my career, I thoughtI was going to be a teacher.
So toward the midway through myundergraduate degree I really
wanted to be a teacher.
And then I thought, okay, Iwant to be a psychotherapist.
And then I took a course thatgave me a window into some
social justice work and theoriesand I wanted to be a social
(04:09):
worker.
So my background is actually asa social worker, practicing as
a therapist, and what I loveabout it is that behind the mask
of each person, or what youassume about each person,
there's such a nuance, detail,story, right.
So if I meet a person in theworld and I'm like you know what
(04:32):
, I don't know if I would getalong with this person or I
think, oh, this person is socharismatic.
I also know that if that personwere my client, the story
behind the eyes, the personbehind the eyes, is going to
tell such a big story about howthat personality came to be, and
I find that incredible.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah, it's interesting I wasn't talking
about like a therapist.
For a while I wanted to be ateacher, but that was in high
school and then I found out howmuch teachers made it and I was
like no.
And then when I went to collegeI was deciding between being an
attorney and or I really wantedto be a prosecutor or a
therapist and I went the therapyroute and I did that for a
(05:14):
little while and then got intothe research side of things.
But it kind of comes backaround with.
My main interest has alwaysbeen like why do people do what
they do?
Like trying to understand humanbehavior.
So getting in this class asRome kind of kind of takes me
(05:36):
back to that and provides a lotof insight into what's going on
in the community.
So I really enjoy that piece ofit.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, I can appreciate that Like people are
endlessly interesting and weknow that so many people want to
be us, because all of socialmedia right now is about
understanding human behavior,right, I mean people are a bit
obsessed with like framingeverything as a trauma response,
which it can be, but it's niceto see like people are really
(06:06):
interested in understandingtheir own behavior and I think
that's a journey I'm also on.
Just because I'm a therapistdoesn't mean I know it, doesn't
mean I know everything aboutmyself, right, and it's really
cool to see the places your selfawareness can take you.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Absolutely so.
Another thing that I saw thatwas interesting about you is
that you are.
You said you dedicated over adecade to LGBTQ Muslim community
organizing.
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Sure, I think for a lot of us, when we do community
organizing and we want to createspaces for social interactions
and emotional support, or whenwe do organizing that is more
political, where we're doingadvocacy work, some of that is
(07:00):
for the community, our people,but another big part of that is
creating spaces that don't exist, so that we have somewhere to
be Right.
We're creating places forourselves in many ways, and I
think for a long time I've beeninvested in creating spaces
where queer and trans Muslimscould just hang out, be
(07:21):
themselves, work through theirstuff and not have to be
defensive about who they are.
And in most mainstream Muslimspaces I feel pretty agnostic or
atheist.
I'm like, eh, I'm not thatinterested in all of this, but
when I'm around other queerMuslims and there's a prayer or
there's an Eid celebration,there's something about my
(07:43):
cultural past that I get to leaninto and I get to do it with
other queer people whounderstand that the relationship
to the ritual, to the religion,is complex, and to me that's
like an entry point intosomething that is fundamentally
part of myself and I think thatcan be really beautiful and I've
(08:04):
been very interested inrecreating that space for other
people and so yeah, that's likea big part of me.
So sometimes people are like areyou a practicing Muslim or not
a practicing Muslim?
And For the most part I'm notpracticing, but most queer
people don't even ask me that.
(08:25):
They're just like oh yeah,you're one of us.
There's another level ofunderstanding about how you can
be without this categorization,because if a non-Muslim person's
asking me, are you practicingor not, they're not doing a
harmful thing and their intentis pretty pure, but more likely
(08:47):
than not, they're trying tofigure out if my queerness
precludes my Muslim-ness.
They're like oh yeah, you mustbe not so Muslim if you're queer
.
And I'm like I don't love thatframing, but I get where it
comes from for a lot of people,right, but that's the kind of
thing you don't necessarily haveto deal with or experience in
(09:09):
queer Muslim spaces, and so I'vebeen interested in cultivating
those.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Well, I am interested in how your first Muslim person
we've had a conversation with.
I can't even remember all thereligions, but lots of people in
different religious communities, even people who are leaders in
the community, who have theirown churches, and I'm always
very interested in how peoplereconcile their sexuality, their
queerness, with their religion.
(09:35):
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah, I think there are lots of reasons For people
to question and be critical oftheir faith, communities,
organized religion, doctrines,teachings, sermons, and I think
(09:57):
the larger question is what wasyour entry point into being more
critical about organizedreligion?
Cause lots of people havedifferent entry points, and for
me the entry point was mysexuality, where I was like will
I be accepted Theologically?
What does the Quran and what doMuslim scholars and leaders say
(10:21):
about people being gay?
And so that was a struggle forme.
However, I've met lots of queerMuslims for whom reconciliation
isn't a huge thing becausesexuality wasn't their entry
point into that kind ofexploration.
They're like, oh, I was morecritical when I was looking at
(10:44):
differing gender roles in thecommunity, or I've been more
critical about how certain kindsof practice haven't evolved
over time or how people practicein different places in the
world, and you're like, oh,that's really interesting.
So their entry point intocritical thinking it wasn't so
personal, it wasn't aboutacceptance, it was about like,
(11:05):
how could these things shiftover time so they were able to
maintain the development oftheir sexual identity and their
religious identity?
They saw them as like theseparallel things that just kind
of evolve over time but theydon't necessarily have to
intersect or cause like anexistential crisis.
Now I'm dramatic, so it causedme an existential crisis.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Well, I know a little bit about the religion, but not
extensively, and so I have twoquestions.
The first one what does theMuslim faith say about sexuality
?
Christianity says well, itdoesn't actually say this.
It's been interpreted and I cansee why people interpret it
(11:52):
that way.
But the Bible has beeninterpreted to say that
homosexuality is an abomination.
That is wrong.
Is there any of that languageanywhere in the Quran?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
So the part of the Quran that often gets cited is
the story of Lut, and that's asimilar story that you see in
the Bible.
All right, it's like I thinkabout these religious books as
having different volumes andadditions, so, and Islam, I
think, has one of, I would sayit's one of.
(12:26):
It's like a newer edition basedon chronology, and scholars
would say these particularstories are not about
homosexuality, they're aboutrape or they're about
inhospitable, they're about allthese other things.
So I'm not a theologian, I'mnot a scholar, but I would say
(12:48):
frankly, if our current dayreading of any religious text
cannot support someone'shumanity, someone else's
humanity, we're probablyinterpreting it incorrectly,
right?
So, like, whatever that faithis and whatever that reading is,
(13:12):
I think we need to interpret itknowing that it could have been
misused and weaponized againstpeople.
So if we're not centering socialjustice, if we are using an
interpretation to denounce ortake away someone's humanity,
we're probably reading it wrong,right.
And if you are subscribing tosomething that advocates for or
(13:37):
supports like punishing otherpeople, diminishing other people
, that's not a thing I wouldwant to be part of.
So if I meet Muslims andthey're like anti homosexuality,
they're not about my rights.
I'm like.
Whatever you've created there,that's not something I even want
to be associated with.
That's not for me, right.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
And that really needs to be the main tenant.
People need to recognize thatreligion.
The base should be about loveand acceptance.
Right yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
And I think there's such beautiful things that can
come from faith-basedcommunities.
Like people will meet everySunday or every Friday or every,
whenever.
Those people will lean on eachother in a beautiful way.
They will share thoughts, ideasabout the world.
If someone passes away, they'llgrieve.
If someone gets married or anew child comes into the world,
(14:30):
they'll celebrate and rejoice,and those are like beautiful
networks.
But when those communities andnetworks become so insular that
you worry about what everybodyelse is doing, about what
everybody else thinks, and youcan't be your own self, then I
would say it's working againstyou, right?
Then we got to really rethinkwhat our participation in those
(14:52):
communities is doing for us,because it could be harmful.
True.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So my other question is something that I've always
wondered about, For any religion, where they are very much about
separating men and women andthere's not traditional dating,
there's not traditionalinteractions.
It's very much here's the malecommunity and they interact with
each other, and here's thefemale community and they
interact with each other, andthen only when you're set to get
(15:20):
married do the two meet.
So that is very much a breedingground for queerness for you to
be promoting these very separatecommunities and interacting and
getting love and support fromwithin separate gender
identities Is that a thing or amI making that up?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
No, look, I don't think you're making that up.
I think there's a number ofcontexts where, like staunch
heterosexuality and heterosexistlike organizing of people then
creates opportunities for peopleto explore themselves, right.
So, for example, world Wars,men leave and they are
(16:02):
conscripted to go to war.
Women are at home or those arelike there's a big gender
segregation around labor andwhat your role in society is.
But when that marriage?
When those people are sociallysanctioned to be in different
places, they now get to exploredifferent parts of themselves,
right, if we think about peoplegetting to an age where they go
(16:26):
away, it's very common in ourcultures, like North American
culture, that like you get to auniversity college age, you move
away from home.
To me that's like that is likea culturally sanctioned time for
you to be able to explore whoyou are outside of your family.
Right, first year university Itell everybody it's not about
your academic like you need topass, but that is a time where
(16:47):
you are for the first time goingto get to explore who you are.
And so when it comes toreligious communities, when
people are kind of divided inthese gendered ways, absolutely,
I've had lots of therapyclients who say to me that they
had same-sex relations with boysfrom their class or a second
(17:08):
cousin or something like that,and that's very normal for them.
The challenge is that if youstick to the heterosexual frame
too rigidly, you get this likesanctioned period of exploration
and then you're expected toretract and people frame it as
(17:29):
that was my time to have fun.
That was my time to dosomething else.
Now I need to settle down.
Now I have to revert back tothe expectations of my family.
So, for example, I had a clienttell me I'm having fun with
guys now, but I'm in my early20s.
I have to get marriedeventually because, like that's
for my parents, I owe them thatbecause they've given me so much
(17:50):
and I'm like oof, that's a lotto unpack, because you're seeing
this time away from home inyour early 20s as a time for
exploration.
But then there's thisexpectation that you will feed
into this other thing later onand if you're going to resist
that or unlearn that, that'sgoing to be a painful process.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Right, right, and it's very unfortunate because
now you're doing it for yourparents.
So you're getting into amarriage that's not based on
love or what you want and you'renow destroying multiple people
there.
Right, because you're not happy, the home is not going to be
happy.
Then you may bring children inthe equation to grow up in a
(18:30):
dysfunctional family justbecause of religious belief or
just because that's the quote,unquote norm that you're
supposed to follow.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, there's a couple of things you bring up
there, kassi, that makes methink about motivations for
marriage.
I think some people will say Iwant to get married now because
of age.
I'm in a certain headspacewhere I'm ready, like commitment
, and I want to move forward andI want to make this thing
happen.
And I think people do that evenwithout a range of marriage.
(18:59):
Lots of people hit like theearly 30s and they're like I got
to make this thing happen.
Other people come from cultureswhere a range of marriage is
normalized and it's reallyinteresting to see how some of
those do work out, because Ithink it's a different system
and function of the marriage.
I think the biggest problem iswhen people think that either a
(19:19):
heterosexual marriage or havingchildren is going to solve a
problem or a discrepancy.
So if you're like I've beenhaving sex with people of the
same gender and I'm thinkinggetting married is going to help
me be more disciplined, somehowit's going to help me focus my
(19:40):
life, it frames all of yourqueerness or all of the same sex
stuff as like deviant andchildlike and exploratory, and
then you're doing the adult,responsible, discipline thing to
get into a heterosexualmarriage and, yeah, that is so
selfish, it's going to harmmultiple people.
(20:01):
So I agree I'm like that is.
I do have some strong feelsabout that.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Exactly Like I always tell my wife and I know a lot
of people probably disagree withme at all.
They say what's the differencewith having a child out of
wedlock than having a child andthen getting divorced a few
years later Because some peopleare all, you're having children
and you're not married, right.
But those same people that aremarried and say, oh, I'm married
(20:28):
now, I'm having children, a fewyears later you're divorced.
It's a no.
Not only you're bringing up thechild in a single parent
household, you're bringing upthe child also in a hostile
situation, because most timeswhen people get divorced, the
relationship is sour, right.
So my thing is I strongly doand I know a lot of listeners
(20:51):
may disagree and think I'm crazyfor saying this but I do not
agree that you have to getmarried to our children because
it's it's some of your life.
Oh, I'm married and I need tohave a child.
And then a lot of heterosexualpeople they are getting married
and they're having children withpeople that are not even fit to
have children, and people thatare not even can't take care of
(21:14):
themselves, much as tofinancially, emotionally take
care of a child.
But you get married and have achild, and that's why we have so
much dysfunctionality in oursociety today.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, I would totally agree.
And equipping people with thetools to plan, think about the
future.
I think that is what results inhealthy children, right or
healthy environments forchildren.
It could be a single parent, itcould be co-parents, it could
be two or three parents, like.
(21:46):
It could be so many differentconfigurations.
It could be like there's goingto be a community of people that
raises this child, but I thinkpeople having the tools and the
wherewithal to plan what that'sgoing to look like is very
important.
We're lying on this idea that,like, if we get married, then
that structure itself willsupport good parenting is just
not good science.
(22:06):
Like, if two people are notgetting along, they don't like
each other that much.
They got married because theythought their biological clock
was ticking, like.
I don't see that as enough of afoundation to move forward.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I would agree with you 100%, and I just wanted to
comment on one thing, going backto what you said about that
time in your 20s of exploringsame-sex relationships and
things, and then then moving tothis okay, now I need to be
responsible and disciplined andmy life needs to look this way.
Well, we all know how wellrepression and what's the word
(22:44):
I'm looking for.
So go back to dieting, thinkingabout being disciplined and
responsible.
We all know that poweringthrough something and having
willpower to stick to somethingthat you don't really want to do
or don't really enjoy, we justdon't really have the capacity
to do that for very long.
So you're setting yourself upfor failure and you're setting
(23:05):
the person that you're with fora heartbreak and heartache
because you are essentially, ifprior to them, that your story
was.
You were exploring and youactually enjoyed that those same
sex relationships.
You're really setting yourselfand your partner up for a
terrible situation because it'snot going to last.
It's not sustainable.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
I agree.
I really like that.
You brought up this analogy ofthe dieting right.
There's an Instagram handlethat I follow that's called diet
starts tomorrow, and I thinkit's so funny because people
every day are like I'm going to,like they have a regimen of
some kind of plan and they'relike, okay, we're going to start
(23:46):
that tomorrow because I alreadybroke the rules today.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
And it's funny, but every day in our lives, that is
how a lot of our psyches work.
Right, I'm going to make thechange, but I'm going to make it
tomorrow.
Well, the thing is, the changeyou're trying to make is too big
or not possible or notsustainable.
It's not something you want todo, it doesn't bring you joy,
but it's a thing you think youshould do.
(24:11):
Yes, and when the should getsinto the equation, it brings up
a lot of stuff around failureand shame, right.
So let's take a step away fromdiets.
And we think about somebody whois in heterosexual marriage, but
they're having extramaritalrelations and it's not
(24:32):
negotiated, it's not consensualnonmonogamy.
It's like I'm a gay or bi manand I am having sex with other
men outside of my marriage and Ikeep thinking each time I do it
, I'm going to stop after thisone.
So you frame it as, like, thecheat day of your diet, or you
(24:52):
frame it as a slip in theregimen of your whatever your
keto regimen is, and then you'relike, okay, I'm going to do
this again tomorrow.
So it's full of shame andfailure and then probably guilt,
right, for like what the impactcould be on somebody else.
That's a really hard existenceat that point right.
So you're harming somebody elseor you're not honest with
(25:15):
somebody else and you're in aconstant guilt and shame spiral.
And I would say to myself ifthat person, especially if
they've grown up in a religioushome, is this the kind of
torture God or a higher beingwould want me to have in my life
?
Should it be this hard to beadherent to a faith?
(25:35):
It shouldn't be this hard to behappy, in addition, to like
just the basics of having enoughwork, having enough money to
retire, the basic needs forsurvival in addition, should
there be this much moral turmoilto just get through life?
Because that doesn't sound veryreasonable.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Agree, 100%.
Yeah, so moving on, tell usabout the conference Sex Down
South.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yeah.
So I first went to Sex DownSouth I think it was in 2018.
And every year they introducenew keynote speakers that they
also call their sex celebs.
I got to be the sex celeb forthat particular year, but they
always honor their past sexcelebs, so that's kind of a nice
(26:23):
title to get on.
What's the criteria?
You don't know what thecriteria is specifically.
I think if you are doing likesome kind of cool work or you've
like written some things,you've spoken on certain topics,
you're an educator and thatcatches the attention of the
organizers, they might then callon you to say hey, we've heard
(26:47):
about some of your work.
We'd love to invite you to be akeynote speaker and you would
be honored as a sex celeb thisyear, and then it's like you
become part of their communityin that way, which is really
nice.
So Sex Down South is a mix ofsexuality educators, sexuality
and pleasure professionals,people who do relationship and
sex therapy, coaching andeducation.
(27:10):
There's lots of folks who dokink, bdsm workshops.
There are some people who areperformers, like burlesque
performers, some people who arein the porn industry, other
people who are therapists.
So it's really quite a range ofpeople coming together and
offering like a slew ofworkshops, education, lots of
(27:33):
hands-on training, and it's likea sexy conference.
There's like a labyrinth and adungeon where you could go and
play.
There's rules that you wouldfollow to be respectful to
people, and it is a lot of queerpeople of color.
It's based in Atlanta and it'sa mix of queer and straight
folks, which is reallyinteresting.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
So you said it's in Atlanta.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Yes, so you all have to go next year and we're going
to meet there because it's sucha cool conference.
It's such a cool conference.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah, definitely.
I had actually heard about itlike just before the conference
was taking place and so didn'thave a chance to talk to you
about it and we were bothworking and so didn't have a
chance to go.
But we would definitely havethat on our agenda for next year
.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Yeah, it sounds pretty cool yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
And this past year I didn't end up presenting
anything.
I just took it as anopportunity to check it out and
just meet people and be a bitless in the limelight, because I
was going to do apre-conference workshop and it
didn't quite work out.
But next year I plan to presentsome cool stuff that I've been
working on, so I'm alreadyexcited about that.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Can you give us a sneak peek about what those
things are?
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah, you know, I've been thinking for a long time
about how to talk about somevery specific things that people
bring up to me in a sex therapycontext yes, more workshop kind
of format.
So I want to create a space forguys or people with penises to
(29:07):
talk about things likedifficulty maintaining erections
, anxiety about earlyejaculation or delayed
ejaculation, things around whatI would call sexual mythology
scripts that a lot of guys worryabout to get caught up in, like
how long you're supposed tolast in a sexual context, how
(29:30):
long you're supposed to maintainan erection, and expectations
people put on us or on guys ingeneral about sex and sexuality,
and so I really want to diginto some of the things I see in
a one-on-one beauty context toa more workshop format, and I
think it's a needed space.
I don't know how much interestthere will be, but I do know
(29:51):
that a lot of guys struggle totalk about this stuff, and so I
think I want to create a spacearound that.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
That's really cool, that's really amazing.
I don't have that problem, butwhen it breaks I just go back to
the store again the sex storeto get another one, perfect.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
I love that.
And that's how we have to thinkLike my body's not doing what I
wanted to do right now.
What's going on in my head?
How do we shift gears Right?
Like that's just doing a thing.
I'm going to shift gears and dosomething else.
The second workshop I want todo, which I hope y'all attend,
is going to be on attachment andattachment self-awareness.
(30:38):
So lots of people are talkingabout attachment styles these
days, like are you avoided, areyou anxious, are you ambivalent?
And I want to do a workshopwhere people get to assess their
own attachment style and thentalk about what it means for
them in the context ofrelationships and communication
and dating.
When do you shut down, when doyou get clingy, when do you not
(31:00):
want to talk to your partner,and so that will be more for a
broader audience.
So those are the two that Ithink I want to do next year.
I'm seeing that's like a need,yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Definitely, definitely, yeah.
People understanding themselvesand, in doing so, are able to
show up better for theirpartners and show up better in
their relationships is reallyimportant.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
The question that I have is and it's a rhetorical
question, because everybody mayhave a different answer what
does clingy and attachment andneed?
It looks like To be honestbecause some people are, the
moment you try to want to beclose to them, that think you're
clingy, and some people, likepeople close to them, always
(31:42):
want to be around them.
So it's it's a little bitsubjective.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yes, right.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
It's very subjective on how you look on those things.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah, totally so.
I would say our attachmentstyles look different in
different contexts, with friends, our family of origin, or
siblings, our romantic partners,because we have different ideas
about what those people aregoing to expect of us.
So if people expect more thanyou can give, you might find
(32:15):
yourself getting a bit distant,right so?
And the use of the word clingyhas become kind of stigmatized,
hasn't it?
And so, to reframe it, I wouldsay there's going to be some
people who have a need forreassurance and closeness, and
that reassurance and closenessmight get scary for other people
(32:36):
.
So the way you ask for it isnot going to be in direct
communication sometimes, andthat can feel a bit aggressive
for somebody else, because theymight think, oh, this person is
getting very upset that I amgoing out or I'm not spending
enough time with them, butthey're not telling me that
they're demanding something else, and so it turns into a kind of
(32:59):
fight about something else.
At the core of it, the personwho's more anxious is.
Underlying it, there's a fearof losing the other person.
And for the person who's moreavoidant, who's like reacting to
this ask for closeness, theirfear is usually about losing
(33:20):
themselves, and so, if we canname these two things, we can
start to talk about how theyoperate in the communication,
because by the time it comes outas a conflict, it's about doing
the dishes, making the bed,date night, walking the dog.
Very often it's about divisionof labor in the house, and the
(33:43):
thing is, it's not really aboutthat, but the person who's upset
is saying the other personisn't doing enough, but what
they really want is for theother person to show closeness
and a commitment to the lifethey're creating together.
Right, right, it comes from aplace of needing closeness.
All right, I'm seeing reactionsfrom the two of you, so I'm
(34:05):
curious about what you think.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yes, the audience doesn't see, since we're not a
video or audio only, but yes,cassie raised her hand in the
needing a lot of reassurance andfor us it's not indirect.
She very much will be like sohow do you feel about this, what
do you think about this?
And I'm like oh, my God, we'vealready talked about this, I
(34:29):
already talked about this, Ialready told you, don't you know
?
And so we kind of all say bloodheads, but we're on opposite
ends of the spectrum when itcomes to that, because I don't
need a lot of reassurance withlike I know that you love me,
you do all these things, I'mgood and fine.
And she's like yeah, but do you?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Right, because when you start falling off, then you
know, you start thinking, okay,what exactly is going on?
Because I'm very direct withwhat I need, because I've made a
mistake before and I'm notmaking anything and I'm going to
tell you what I need, sothere's not going to be any
surprises.
You know, because that's what Ithink.
Sometimes people don't say whatthey want and expect the other
(35:12):
person to know what they want,and if I feel like something is
changing, I'm going to be likeOkay, what's going on?
This not happening?
Why is it not happening?
Is there something wrong?
But I need a recurrence andunfortunately I'm that one.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
So, cassie, in your relationship, what makes you
feel closest to Angelica?
So it's not.
I'm not talking about explicitreassurance like hey, babe, I'm
here for you, but what is itthat she does?
Or what are the situations orsettings where you feel most
(35:49):
reassured or closest to her?
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Words are for information.
A phone call when I'm not home,a text message, just basic
stuff, basic day to day stuff.
A hug, a random kiss, justlittle gestures, right, and
those things, yes, they made mefeel close to her and keep me
abreast and what's going on.
It's not one big thing, it'sjust little things.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Okay, so lots of gestures and like you want to
know what's going on in her day,and that seems like a
reasonable ask, and so, angelica, is that hard for you?
Speaker 1 (36:25):
It is.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Tell me why.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Because I'm just like I'm busy working and I'm
thinking about you, but I don'twant.
I'm not a person who likes totalk on the phone a lot, and so
I don't want to call and just belike hey, what are you doing?
I have a break.
But if I have a break I justwant to like look at TikTok or
watching a click show orwhatever it's like.
(36:47):
I want to decompress and like Iguess I think about her and I
know those are the times whereshe would like for me to text
and be like hey, love you,thinking about you, but that's
just not my personal, not mypersonality.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Right.
But it's also not mypersonality to sit on the couch
every day and watch TV.
I'm more if an extrovert wantto be out there.
But I made an adjustment forher because I love her.
I want to show that I'm willingto not be at the bar, I'm
willing to not be out there inthe community to 24 seven,
community activism and all ofthat to make sure she feels like
(37:29):
I put her at the forefront.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Fair.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
I watch more TV in the 12 years that we've been
together, that I've been myentire life.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Yeah, fair.
So this idea of compromise andthe possibility of adjusting has
been put on the table.
So for Angelica, the thinkingmight need to be around how can
I think about sharing gestureswith my partner as part of my
decompression routine, asopposed to thinking that it is
(38:04):
taking something from me,Because if I don't do that, my
partner gets agitated and thenthere's going to be more to
decompress from Right.
So you're, in a way, Angelica,by not being able to share the
gestures, you might be creatingmore angst in your partner.
That then needs you to get morerespite and a break.
(38:27):
So there's a cycle like apursuer, a distancer.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Dynamic.
So you might have to say toyourself I want to decompress.
I'll send my babes a quickmessage to let her know just on
break about to do this thinkingof you, and then I can really
decompress, because then I don'tfeel like I have done her dirty
For Cassie.
(38:53):
On your side, there is someattention you might have to give
to your past and your present.
So you said before, I have notmade my needs known in the past,
and then did it work out orthere was a consequence, so I
have to make my needs known now,right?
So to me that sounds likethere's a bit of fear that if
(39:15):
I'm not explicit and I don'treiterate it over and over,
things could go very badly.
So for you, you might have toremind yourself that this
particular relationship isdifferent.
In some ways, the need has beenarticulated.
This person has heard it betterthan that last person, and so I
(39:36):
might not need to repeat it,because I think there's a fear
on your end that if I don't sayit over and over, something bad
could happen.
Would you agree?
That's true?
Speaker 3 (39:45):
It is.
It is Raheem, we love you whyare you taking clients?
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Come on, this is perfect.
You have hit the nail on thehead.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
But you are amazing at what you do yes, and it's not
confrontational.
You are great at what you doyes.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yes.
So once you've heard it, we gota little mini session and have
gotten some things to work on inour relationship.
So if you are taking clients,Raheem is definitely the person
to turn to.
So we're going to switch gearsa little bit and dig into you
(40:26):
personally for our littlelightning round here.
What is your earliest queermemory, either thoughts or
experience that you had?
Speaker 2 (40:35):
My earliest queer memory would be being on a road
trip to Florida with my cousin'sfamily and having so much fun
playing with a Barbie doll'shair.
I was obsessed.
It was a Pocahontas doll and Iloved how long her hair was and
(40:59):
I would just be brushing it overand over and it was just such a
soothing experience and at thetime I didn't think there's
anything gay about it.
But now I look back and I'mlike, oh, there's something very
queer about it.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Okay, all right.
Yeah, that doll was reallypretty yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
A brown girl and I'm just brushing her hair.
Obviously, I was like Iidentify with this.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
Right yeah.
So when you realized you werequeer, what was your biggest
concern?
Raheem?
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Well, I was really realizing later in high school,
so grade 10, 11.
And I think my biggest concernswere like what will my life be
and will I have a family orcommunity afterwards?
Like how can I still be part ofmy religious community, for
example, if I like somebodythat's a boy?
(41:57):
I just didn't have any modelsto show me what that could look
like.
And so my biggest concerns werenot having a family community
anticipating rejection, but alsolike what does it mean to me to
like guys, like I had no ideathat relationships were possible
(42:17):
and not knowing where I wouldfit in the world, and a lot of
anxiety about what the futuremight hold or bring.
Or my main concerns right.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
So now that you've been in this space for a while,
what do you love most aboutbeing queer?
Speaker 2 (42:31):
I love that.
For me, queerness has been Notjust about attraction.
It's been an entire Politicsabout a way to look at the world
and challenge the status quo ofeverything.
And so what I love about beingqueer is that I get to make my
(42:52):
own rules.
I get to think about how I wantto live my life.
I think about Dogmatic scriptsand ways of being, and I could
be like oh yeah, I want to trythat or that's not gonna work
for me, and I really like theidea that I get to make my life
what I want it to be.
Right like I can have chosenfamily, I can have my biological
(43:14):
family, I can live alone.
I was just telling a friend ifI were to be in a serious
relationship again and I haven'tbeen in one in a few years now
that I might not want to livewith my partner, and that friend
said, oh, really, like, do youthink it would be a serious
relationship then?
And I'm like yeah, I think itcould be.
I think I get to decide rightright so for me, I'm thinking
(43:38):
about queerness as how to thinkabout life and what the
opportunities and options arefor how to live it, and to me
that's extremely liberating.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yes, right it is.
And on the flip side of that,what's been your most
challenging experience as aqueer person?
Speaker 2 (43:55):
I think there's a kind of isolation that comes
from just certain moments ofwhen you're living your truth,
but it's not necessarily seen byother people in the world and
you just don't have the samekind of built-in supports.
(44:18):
Now, I don't know if straightpeople experience this like I
have no idea, but I'm justthinking like, as an example,
somebody who has who's marriedlives with their partner and has
a kid or two.
They are gonna go home to agroup of people every day right
and They've got like astructured network or group of
(44:39):
people that they're gonna theyknow they're gonna spend their
weekend with.
So if my life looks kind ofdifferent and I'm like I'm
traveling, I'm at conferences,I'm gonna go work remotely in
another country for a few months, on the outside a lot of that
looks really fabulous and it is.
But I'm gonna have lots ofmoments of loneliness, of like,
(44:59):
where I'm just like what is mylife?
Will I meet somebody?
Am I making choices?
That's gonna make it harder fora long-term relationship.
I'm going out sightseeing andtraveling alone and sometimes
it's lovely and other times I'mlike could be nice If I did this
with somebody else.
So there's those moments ofisolation where you're living
your truth and it's fabulous butit's also isolating.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yeah, I can see that it is.
Speaker 3 (45:26):
I've been there before.
A lot of people really don'tunderstand that it's not about
as you say.
People see that thing, oh,that's nice, they've been alone
doing everything by yourself.
But then he gets old.
He gets really old.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
Yes, it does.
So I think to that end.
We were talking aboutattachment styles before.
I Am more of an avoid, anattached person, and so, even
though I have a big network offriends, asking for help or
asking for something in a momentof vulnerability can be hard
for me, and so I'm starting tolearn I can't just hang out with
(46:08):
friends when I'm in a good mood.
I need to call on people evenwhen I'm feeling sad, and I
don't have to tell them like I'msuper sad but I could say I'm
feeling kind of I Could do witha hangout today.
Are you free or do you want tojust chill and come watch TV
with me?
There's like learning how toask to be social or in the
presence of others when thingsare feeling a bit harder.
(46:30):
It's something I'm learning todo more of.
Right Doesn't come easy.
Speaker 3 (46:36):
It sure doesn't, yeah .
So right in, when and how didyou come out to your family?
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Wow.
I came out to my family in thesummer of 2007, so quite a few
years ago.
I was 22 at the time.
I'm now 38.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
I.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Came out to my family , my parents in particular, with
my brother's help.
So I came out to my brotherseveral years before that and
he's always been a really goodstraight ally and he helped me
prepare.
And the time that I decided todo it was right after I returned
(47:18):
from an international exchangeprogram in Singapore.
I was in Singapore for a yearand and then I decided I I think
I got like an additional levelof exploration, really far from
my people and my community, andthat was really formative for me
(47:39):
Because I got to realize we allneed to have an experience when
we can be who we want to bewithout worrying about what
other people will think.
I and who would I be if I didn'tknow anybody around to me?
And I think that's why I liketo travel a lot now, because you
get to make and remake yourselfand then you bring that
(48:00):
learning home with you.
So that was the time that Idecided to do it and it was just
gonna be a month or two beforeI had to go back to school and I
was living away from home.
So it was kind of good becausethere's a couple weeks with the
fam and then I'm going to be onmy own.
There's built-in distance andit didn't go particularly well.
(48:25):
It was quite hard but I have tosay my Parents emphasis and
value on family and the familyunit and keeping it together and
prioritizing one another Wasreally it really shone through
because there was no talk ofdisowning me or disrespecting me
(48:47):
.
They didn't get me.
It felt really difficult forthem like like tears, anguish,
sadness, like it was a lot.
But Over the years Things gotbetter and I don't want to
discount how hard it was,because it was hard but it got
better and so that taught me alot about how much love and
(49:13):
commitment to love and familyCan supersede Differences in
understanding and lifeexperience.
So that's been a good lifelesson for me right.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
Nice.
Yeah, that's really nice tohave that family support, Really
nice.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
They never once weaponized religion against me,
so I also really do appreciatethat.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
What about that?
Your extended family and thelarger Muslim community?
Did you experience any form ofdiscrimination or Rejection?
Speaker 2 (49:48):
rejection for the most part it was really
surprising.
I didn't.
My cousins have been really.
They've been all really great.
I'm sure they all had their ownlearning process and trajectory
, but like it didn't affect mepersonally because they probably
did that Processing somewhereelse.
There were a couple of momentswhen I was in my last long-term
(50:09):
relationship when it wasuncertain whether I could bring
my partner to family gatheringsand there was some I Wouldn't
say discrimination, but tensionabout what people would think
and what it would look like andeven for me and my partner, like
how we would feel, like we.
(50:30):
I remember we came home from awedding that happened in my
family and we just like Fell onthe couch and we were exhausted.
The day wasn't even that tiring, but it was that level of
anxiety you have all day frombeing in a straight space where
you worry about what otherpeople are thinking.
And the other people didn't doanything wrong.
But the wedding took place at amosque and I take my white
(50:52):
boyfriend.
And it's like it was a lotemotionally for us and you guys
get that.
You know what that's like.
A full day being in a queerspace versus a full day being in
a straight space and Then afull day being in a straight
space with your straight familylike that does a different thing
to your psyche.
It's hard.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Yeah, yeah, my wife made an observation recently
when we were in a queer space ata queer event.
I used to consider myself anintrovert.
I know I'm a say, I'm anambivert.
But she said you're not thatintroverted when you're in queer
spaces.
And it took me a back and Ithought about.
I was like You're right, I feelmore accepted, I feel more
(51:33):
comfortable, I feel more likeit's a more familial space and
so I am more relaxed and open totalk and whatever.
So, yes, there, theredefinitely is, even if it's not
Over anxiety.
But there can be some tensionwhen you're in a space where
you're not sure how well you'llbe received for being yourself
(51:56):
right.
So what advice would you giveto your younger self looking
back now?
Speaker 2 (52:02):
the advice I would give to my younger self is to
keep dreaming big and Don'tworry if you don't see a clear
path laid out for you.
You can create that path as yougo along and and you don't have
(52:23):
to know where it leads Justkeep creating it and building it
and it'll take you somewherebeautiful.
And Don't dim your lightbecause some people would think
you're too much or you're tooloud.
You will quickly drop thepeople who think it's too much
and you will surround yourselfwith people who think it is Just
what they need right and that'sbeautiful very nice.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
This has been a great conversation.
I'm coming away feelingenergized and In a nice peaceful
, as a best or the right word,but in a nice, even space.
So I really appreciate theconversation.
Any last words for the audience.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Well, we talked about so many things, so if I were to
give a last word, I would sayeveryone, go out and learn about
your attachment style and tryto be thinking about what it
means for you in your daily life, in your different
relationships, to.
It's okay if you're single andNot in a relationship, because
(53:26):
there's a lot of pressure for usto get partnered up.
I also wanted to tell peoplewho are Figuring out their own
path and that doesn't fit ascript or a mold, but that's
okay and it can be so beautifulto do that.
I also want to tell folks thatthey should come to sex down
south next year.
Yes and yes.
And if anybody wants to learnmore about my work or hire me to
(53:46):
be a speaker, they can find allmy stuff just by going to lady
at a van.
Calm and yeah, I am thankfulthat I could have this
conversation with you folks.
Speaker 3 (53:58):
Yes, great conversation, rahim.
So if someone wants to get intouch with you for you to Be
their therapist, because you'reso awesome at what you do, how
can they get in touch with you?
Where can they find you to booka consultation?
Speaker 2 (54:14):
if you go to lady at a van calm, it'll take you to
all my links so you can get mywebsite, my email address, my
LinkedIn and then someone canjust shoot me an email and we
can talk about what serviceswould look like.
Speaker 3 (54:28):
Listen, there you have it.
Rahim tower is aPsychotherapist, a public
speaker, a clinical supervisor,and Rahim is a is an organizer
in the LGBTQ Muslim communityworking to bridge that gap.
Thank you, rahim.
It was so wonderful to have youon a queer understanding
unforgiving.
My wife and I are mini sessionanytime, take care folks.
Speaker 1 (54:52):
Thank you, you too,
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