January 6, 2025 • 55 mins
Join us as we engage in a thought-provoking exchange about the structured and liturgical nature of Catholic prayer, compared to the free-flowing evangelical approach. We bring fresh insights and questions into the mix, making this episode a tapestry of spiritual perspectives that promises to enhance your understanding of religious practices.
Our conversation offers a fresh dynamic, as we weave through the contrasts and similarities between Jewish and Christian prayers. Discover how these traditions provide a spiritual connection and explore the theological implications and practical applications of prayer. From the heart's free flow to the rhythmic cadence of liturgy, this episode is a rich exploration that will leave you with a deeper appreciation and an eagerness to ponder the role of prayer in your life. Whether you're a devout follower or simply curious, tune in for a discussion that's sure to be as educational as it is engaging.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Love comes down with a divorce, son.
Well, it takes a storm, baby,but I'm strong to do the door,
cause I gotta have faith.
I gotta have faith Cause I gotto have faith, faith, faith.
I got to have faith, faith,faith, faith.
Baby, I know you're asking meto stay.
(00:23):
Say, please, please, please,don't go away.
You see I'm giving you theblues.
Maybe there you knew every wordyou say.
I can't help but think ofyesterday and I know you tied me
down to love a boy.
Blues Before this river becomesan ocean, before you throw my
(00:46):
heart back on the floor.
Oh, baby, I reconsider myfoolish notion, but I need
someone to hold me back.
But I'll wait for somethingmore.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yes, I gotta have faith.
Welcome to A Show of Faithwhere a professor, priest,
millennial and rabbi discusstheology and philosophy and
anything else of interest inreligion.
If you have any response to ourtopics or any comments
regarding what we say, we wouldlove to hear from you.
Please email us at ashowoffaithat hotmailcom.
You can hear our shows againand again by listening pretty
(01:20):
much everywhere podcasts areheard.
Our priest is Fr Mario Arroyo,retired pastor of St Cyril of
Alexandria in the 10,000 blockof Vostok.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
An honor to be with you.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Our professor, david Capes is our Baptist minister
and director of academicprogramming for the Laniero
Theological Library, but hecan't be with us tonight.
Rudy Cohn is our millennial.
He's a systems engineer and hashis master's degree in theology
from the University of StThomas.
Are we done?
There he is.
I am Rabbi Stuart Federo,retired rabbi from Congregation
(01:52):
Jarhush-Alon, the Clear Lakearea of Houston, texas.
Jim Robinson is our producerand engineer, author of the book
I Am With you Always, matthew2820, a daily devotional.
Corey and Miranda are our boardoperators and together, jim and
Miranda and Corey help us soundfantastic.
And tonight we also have withus Valerie.
Hi, valerie, and welcome to AShow of Faith.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
It's good to be with you Good to be with you too.
The only thing I have to say toyou is I cannot hear a word
you're saying, because I have amicrophone but I don't have a
plug.
So we will just I'm able toparticipate, but not until they
get that little plug right, wealways have things we need to
(02:35):
plug.
Oh geez but anyway, why I amthe show?
Speaker 5 (02:42):
so I can talk over Mario and he can't hear me.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
What did he say?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Exactly that.
He said he can talk over youbecause you can't hear him.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
That's exactly correct.
I cannot.
So, here he comes, thank you.
Thank you, valerie.
I just got a little plugextension, but it may or may not
work.
No, it'll work, depending onwhether this is a screw-on.
It will not work.
It won't work Because there'stwo types there's a screw-on and
there's a the regular kind andthat's the regular kind.
(03:16):
So, anyway, yes, Tonight Iwould like to focus on prayer.
Tonight I would like to focuson prayer, the traditions of
prayer, both in the Jewish andin the Christian tradition.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yes, although.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
David's not here to defend himself tonight.
Well, no, I mean, I thinkprayer would be, you know,
somewhat the same in allChristian traditions, or at
least, well, maybe I'm notconvinced of that.
No, in Catholic tradition therewould be a much more, I would
say, a deeper reacher,understanding of prayer than in
a lot of the evangelicaltraditions.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
And I think evangelical tends to be only off
the heart.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Only what.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Free-flowing from the heart.
It's Free flowing from theheart.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
It's not texts, it's not liturgical.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
That's the word.
Thank you, there's no liturgyto it.
There's no liturgy to it, whichmeans that your discussion of
prayer and my discussion ofprayer are going to be a lot
more overlapped.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Okay, so I would like to divide the night into two
different sections.
One is what we would callliturgical prayer, that is, the
prayer that we do when we cometogether, and, in liturgy,
richard Averbeck In liturgy,darrell Bock In liturgy.
Now, would you define what youthink liturgy is, richard?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Averbeck, a specific text that you go through in
prayer.
It's a specific text that youread, either out loud or to
yourself, or you chant withother people, but it begins with
a specific pre-written text.
It's a liturgy.
It could be in the form of agroup prayer, responsive reading
(05:05):
, I'm not sure what else to callit, but it's a specific text.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Well, and it's interesting because it's a
specific text, but I don't knowif you would agree with me on
this, but I would say that it ismore—I'm speaking more of a
Catholic understanding.
Okay, You're speaking to Godthrough the liturgy, through a
(05:38):
preset kind of format.
But I think God already knowswhat you're going to say.
So I think it's more for theperson.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Absolutely, absolutely.
What do you mean by that?
A couple of things.
First of all, there are plentyof times where I've spoken to
somebody about not theliturgical form but the personal
prayer, and what's the firstthing they're going to say?
I don't know what to say.
Yes, and a liturgy gives youwhat to say.
(06:07):
When David wrote the Psalms, heexpressed emotions and feelings
and the experiences that morethan just he had, and it gives
them the words to say or thethings to sing in the temple.
That's correct.
So I think that that's onething.
The other element to this isthat I don't think the purpose
(06:30):
of prayer, especially theliturgical kind let me rephrase
that I'm exclusively talkingabout the liturgical kind I
don't think the purpose ofprayer is to tell God what we
need.
I don't think it's gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, now, now, now,
or I'm not going to believe inyou I think the function and
purpose of that kind of prayeryou know there's an old prayer
(06:52):
book.
I haven't seen it or used it ina long time.
It's an old prayer book and thetext read the person who rises
from prayer a better person,that is, the person whose
prayers have been answered.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
That's very good.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
In other words, the Jewish view of especially
liturgical prayer is that it'snot supposed to change God.
Hey God, I need this.
Hey God, let me win the lottery.
Yes, okay, it's to changeourselves, that's correct, and
to align ourselves and our willwith the will of God.
That's exactly right.
But I think there's also inJudaism, I think it's true in
(07:33):
Catholicism, david's not here todefend himself, but I don't
think it's there, and that isthat it is speaking of Judaism.
It's an Eastern religion, it'snot a Western religion.
We don't call it the MiddleEast, we don't call it Middle
West, we call it the Middle East.
And when you think of Easternprayer, you think of meditations
(07:58):
, you think of the meditativestate.
That liturgical prayer puts youin meditative state.
That liturgical prayer puts youin Mario.
There have been plenty of timeswhere something happened in the
world, whatever, and there wouldbe a part of the liturgy that
struck me as pertinent towhatever the event was.
My point is that when I wouldpoint it out to everybody, it
(08:25):
was literally like I broke themfrom a trance Light, not very
deep, but nevertheless ameditative state, which we call
a trance.
No, we don't.
That's a bad term.
Forget the word trance, yeah,but it's a meditative state
they're in.
And when I say now, on pagewhatever, when it says this, you
(08:49):
know, we remember that today'snewspaper told us that, or
whatever.
But when I first start speaking, that's not the liturgy.
It's like what, what do you say?
What?
It's like they're coming out ofsomething a a meditative state
that, even very lightly, theliturgical service puts them in.
The purpose of prayer or thefunction of liturgical prayer is
(09:12):
it puts you in a meditativestate that I believe is meant to
transcend time and space.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Well, I think it's also the purpose of pre-written
prayers, because that's whatliturgy is.
Yes, it's a set of actions andit's a set of words that are
prescribed.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Body motions included Body motions and that are
prescribed.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Now, a lot of times I hear people saying well, you
know, you've got to pray fromthe heart.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
And they're right, yes.
But you can still do that as ameditation too.
Yes, right.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
But what their meaning is?
Their meaning express you,express what's in your heart to
God.
But within the liturgy there isroom for that same thing there
is, but the chief purpose ofliturgy is to go the other way.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
And I would say, from a Jewish perspective, the chief
, would you call it purpose?
Yeah, purpose of Jewish prayerisn't, is not the what's the
opposite of liturgical, from theheart, what you were just
talking about.
(10:22):
Yeah, I don't believe thatthat's the purpose of the 90,
well, I don't know whatpercentage, but a huge
percentage of Jewish prayer isfrom the liturgy, the Siddur,
the prayer book, and there'sroom within it for the from the
heart, from the soul andoutpouring of the heart and soul
.
There's room for it.
(10:42):
There's a part of the prayer isservice that is read in silence
.
But you don't know what I'msaying.
I don't know what you're saying.
I could be pouring out my heartto God, I could be ignoring the
liturgy Anything's possible butthat's the point at which
you're talking to God directlyfrom the heart and soul.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
But I still understand that liturgical
prayer.
When we get together for Mass,for example, I always let me
back up from this perspective.
I always tell people, I askpeople, how do you pray?
And 98% of the time people say,well, I talk to God and I go.
There's your problem.
(11:22):
There's your problem, you knowwhy?
Because 98% of prayer should belistening to God, not talking
to God.
When you are talking to God,it's you who's talking and in
order for a prayer to besuccessful is for you to listen
(11:45):
to God, for God's Word to getinside of you and to begin to
reformat you in the image andlikeness of the God you're
praying to.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
So to me see—.
But is that necessarily done bylistening or by by reciting?
Speaker 3 (12:05):
yes, but see, in reciting you are actually
listening, like for example whenI say an example for example,
let the lord's prayer.
When I say our father who archin heaven, hallowed be thy name.
I know I saying it to God, butthe echoes of those words are
(12:28):
firing inside of me in all kindsof different places.
They're preset.
But I am hearing much more andI am being changed by those
words Like one thing, give meone thing.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
You're hearing that you're changed by in those same
words.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
The moment I say Our Father, I feel very much notice.
It's not my Father, it is our,our, and so I'm feeling, the
very moment I say our Father, Iam almost, I am transported
intellectually andimagination-wise to the presence
(13:05):
of God in all people, that it'sall of us approaching God as a
family.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Darrell Bock.
So you're listening to thewords which become a reminder to
you, richard Averbeck, that'scorrect.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
They echo Darrell Bock.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
And basically on their content.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Richard Averbeck.
Not only they echo, they bringforth all kinds of different
things memories and ideas andthings like that and they may be
words that I'm saying to God,but he already knows what's
coming.
He taught us that, and so theprayer is more for it to form me
than it is for that, then Rudy,we're going to get your input
(13:41):
when we come back from the thick, because I think you have
probably a very similar Catholicunderstanding than I do.
Okay, by the way, I can hearyou now, rudy.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
So now you've got to be careful.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Oh.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
Lord Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
This is KNTH 1070, and we'll be right back.
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Oh, a little prayer for you the moment I wake up.
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Before I put on my makeup I say a little prayer for
you, clever Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Welcome back to the.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Show of Faith, and I am considering the answer.
Rudy, join in.
What are your understandings oryour thoughts or your
ruminations on this?
Speaker 5 (16:49):
My ruminations, you know, to me you guys are talking
about.
So we're talking about prayer,right, and the importance that
it has and how it's sort of howit's distinct, okay, and
fundamentally, when, for example, the Lord's Prayer right, or
(17:10):
Rabbi, the Psalms, we'relistening.
So when we speak it out, we'realso hearing something right.
But we're speaking out and alsohearing the Word of God, the
literal Word of God, spokenright.
So something about prayer andsomething that has always kind
(17:32):
of fascinated me is it'sparticularly contemplative
prayer, and contemplative prayeris sort of exactly what it
sounds like.
It's fundamentally rooted inScripture, right, and
individuals they sort ofencounter God in silence.
(17:54):
You know, the Catechism talksabout the silent love right, the
simple gaze upon God, and thisis why the liturgy is so
important.
But I also wanted to talk aboutsomething else, because to me
and for the Maranoses I've justfound, there's a lot of mystical
(18:15):
aspects, at least within theCatholic tradition, associated
with prayer and particularlycontemplative prayer, and I can
get into that a little bit later.
You have saints like Teresa ofAvila and St John of the Cross,
you know, who experienced allkinds of things, and even Fr
Pino Spetralcini, you know,which is a more modern
(18:38):
contemporary mystic who died, Ithink, in 67, 68.
But what's interesting to me isthe actual studies that have
been done around prayer andthere's something called I don't
know if you guys are aware, butthere's delta waves, beta waves
, alpha waves, right, it's kindof these wave frequencies that
(18:59):
the brain engages in that areassociated with essentially
different modes that we findourselves in, for example, when
we're sleeping or when we're outthere or when we're this.
So they've actually scannedbrains, done MRIs, done all
sorts of stuff, and it'sinteresting that when people
(19:23):
engage in genuine right that'sone thing that I caught in one
of the articles you sent out.
It says right here prayerwithout concentration is aching
to a lifeless body.
Okay, and I think that's a Saythat body.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Okay, say that again.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Would you say that again?
Speaker 5 (19:51):
Prayer without concentration is aching to a
lifeless body.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Is akin to what A lifeless body Akin to a lifeless
body.
Yeah, he was saying Akin.
And that's because he's one ofthese dad-burned Hispanics who
doesn't know how to speakEnglish.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I'm beginning to think.
Let me tell you.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
Good thing, I know how to build things up.
Okay, so when people haveengaged in genuine contemplative
prayer, then what we found isthat these individuals actually,
especially over prolongedperiods of time, have actual
(20:42):
brain structure changes changes,for example, they did a huge
what I mean huge is time.
So they grabbed these nuns andthey studied their brain waves
for a long time and they sawthat these nuns had increased
gray matter density, inparticular areas linked to
(21:03):
empathy and emotional regulation.
So as individuals engage ingenuine prayer, it's almost like
that connection to divine, tothe transcendent, is able to
kind of better manage, or allowus to manage with more peace,
(21:24):
the sort of the chaos of thisworld.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah, it's actually quite.
I think what rudy's justbasically saying is that prayer
is good for you, is physicallygood for you they have good for
you.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, they have studies of hindu priests that
also show incredible controlover over their bodies, body
functions.
But, rudy, I don't need scienceto tell me that prayer is a
good thing.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
I see Well the good thing is that science can't deny
it.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Right.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Okay, well, I think it's important, you know, I
think it's important not for uswho are religious, but for
people who are skeptical ofreligion.
Right Because these dayseverybody wants to say religion
is useless, you know?
And what's the point of it?
And I think what a lot ofscientific confirmation of
(22:23):
religion does is it doesn'tconvert anyone.
But it does make the case forreligion more plausible
especially to those who might beskeptical that's right, and
it's easier to defend right thanit is, because we're right now,
in terms of religion, we are ina in a culture that is very
(22:43):
inimical to religion.
It's it's very anti-religion,and so um it.
By the way, I am I am just justas a side note I am reading a
book that is just amazing onprayer no on on religion and
science, but it's a critique ofof the scientific attack on
(23:07):
religion and it it's by DavidBerlinski and it's called the
Devil's Delusion.
The Devil's Delusion.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
The.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Devil's Delusion.
It's excellent.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
That sounds like a response to Hitchin or one of
those Berlinski.
It's B-E-R.
The God Delusion.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
No, no, but that's why this is the opposite.
Right, the Devil's Delusion?
No, no, but that's why this isthe opposite.
Right, the devil's delusion.
The devil's delusion isBerlinski B-E-R-L-I-N-S-K-I.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
I okay.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Yeah, and it's very, very good.
But he's talking about thepoint of, you know, of science,
that science just exaggeratesall over the place and they make
believe that they have allkinds of surety on all kinds of
teachings and when they don't.
When you try to connect thedots, and he's a scientist
(23:59):
himself and he says this is justbull.
So anyway, we got to go to abreak.
So this is 1070 KNTH.
You're listening to the Show ofFaith and we will be right back
.
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Dream Whenever I want you.
All I have to do is dream,dream, dream dream when I feel
blue In the night and I need youto.
I have to do Is dream I canmake you mine.
Speaker 9 (27:07):
Taste those lips of wine.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Anytime, night or day .
Only trouble is Dream wins.
I'm dreaming my life away.
Three, four, welcome back tothe show.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
No, they just don't sing it like that anymore.
Those are some wonderful songs.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Anyway, you were going to say something, you were
going to react A couple ofthings, but first of all, it's
kind of the same thing, but it'sa little bit of a different
angle.
You mentioned earlier aboutthat.
We need to listen to the prayer.
Yes, it's kind of the samething, but it's a little bit of
a different angle.
You mentioned earlier aboutthat.
We need to listen to the prayer.
Yes, and by listening to theprayer, we're listening to God.
That's correct.
Okay, there's a Liturgicalprayer, liturgical prayer, but
(27:53):
there's a.
What I'm trying to say is thatJudaism also has this idea of
praying from the soul, prayingfrom the you know, which is not
liturgical prayer.
That's what we're going to next, which is… Private prayer.
Private prayer from the heart,from the soul.
Okay, and there's a saying thatI have read, that when we pray
(28:19):
not the liturgical, but from theheart and soul, when we pray,
it's us speaking to God.
When we study the Biblereligion, that's when God speaks
to us.
I just thought that wasinteresting.
That is interesting.
Right, all right.
Second thing is we have email.
Okay, what is it?
Thank you, rudy for pointing itout to me.
This is from Tom in Alabama.
(28:40):
And thank you, rudy forpointing it out to me, this is
from Tom in Albin.
Is there anything contrary tothe Jewish religion in the
Lord's Prayer, aka the OurFather, in other words, would
there be any reason a Jew couldnot recite that prayer?
Yes, if you take a look at thedifferent parts to the Lord's
Prayer, you can find antecedentsin Judaism for every one,
(29:06):
almost every one, no, I'm prettysure every one.
At the end, however and I knowwhat you're going to say, morrow
it's not technically part ofthe Lord's Prayer.
What's that Most people end it?
Many denominations end it with…the power and the glory, and
all that In the name of theFather, son and Holy Spirit.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Oh yeah, no, no, no, yeah, that's not part of it.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
It's not part of it, but it's added to it by many
different denominations.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yeah, well, that….
No, no, no, it's not added atthe end, it started at the
beginning.
Okay, what do you mean?
In other words, when you'regoing to pray the Our Father,
the difference between Catholicand Protestant is that the Our
Father, at the end we say leadus not into temptation, but
deliver us from evil.
That ends the Catholic.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
The Protestant goes on for thine is the kingdom, the
power and the glory, now andforever.
In the name of the Father andthe Son of the Holy Spirit is
the invocation when you startany kind of prayer.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Okay, that part of it which I have heard is ending
the Lord's Prayer is obviouslynot going to be a Judaism.
It is not.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
It is not.
I've never in 47 years….
I knew you were going to saythis 47 years I've been a priest
.
I've never heard an Our Fatherend.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
At Protestant services Never priest, I've
never heard and our father andat protestant service never.
Okay, all right.
The other aspect of this isthat it is, in fact, a christian
prayer.
So, and david and I have gotteninto this, by the way, it
gotten it, whatever the word isin disagreement over this?
Okay, okay, but if you startreciting that prayer, to my
(30:41):
knowledge, anybody and everybodyisn't going to start thinking
about the Jewish antecedentsthat created it or the milieu in
which it was developed orcreated.
Okay, they're going to hear itas a Christian prayer.
And because it is a Christianprayer and associated as a
Christian prayer no, the Jewswould not recite it Right and
associated as a Christian prayerno, the Jews would not recite
(31:02):
it.
Interesting Right there's anadmonition in I believe it's
Deuteronomy that basically saysdon't do things to me the way
other people do to their gods.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Interesting Right See .
For us, that may be one of thebig differences Because, like
whenever, I am between Jews andChristians because, like, for
example, when I went to yourservices, I could pray along
exactly with what you werepraying, because we're not going
to have anything that's goingto exclude you.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
That's correct, but as soon as a Christian church
brings in a prayer that is…Exclusively Christian …then that
excludes us.
Yes, that is correct.
Which is the problem withalthough it's not our topic,
that's the problem with publicworship.
Yeah, whether it's aninvocation before a meal or
before a baseball game, or whathave you, gary, or before a
baseball game, or what have you.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
Rudy.
Gary, it's just just going backto Collins.
I understood it more with theactual words.
I understand what you mean,Rabbi, with it being, of course,
everybody.
When you say the Lord's Prayer,you think a Christian prayer,
right, and I get that.
But I guess I sort ofunderstood it as is there any
(32:25):
issue with the actual content,or is it because it's?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
a Christian prayer that it's no, no, no, only if
there was something in it thatwas exclusively Christian.
But from Mario's perspective,it doesn't exist in there.
But as I said it's not Mario'sperspective.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
It is the exist in there but, as I said, it's not
Mario's perspective, it is theactual academic perspective.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Absolutely, mario, absolutely Exactly as you say,
but there are every singleelement of it you can find in
Jewish sources preceding orleading up to the time of Jesus
Do?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
you know why Do you?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
know why do you?
Speaker 3 (33:03):
know why?
Why?
Because it was composed by ajew or a group of them jesus
yeah, I know who you meant.
Yes, right so it was composedby a jew, so you would think
that it was had antecedents injewish prayer, which is what you
would expect.
That's correct.
Right, that's correct.
Now let's go into privateprayer.
Yes, okay, rudy, why don't youstart it out?
(33:26):
Comment on private prayer.
Speaker 5 (33:32):
I think, for my personal sort of undertaking.
I find that to me it's sort ofwhat I engage in every day.
So as soon as I wake up, right,thank you Lord for another day,
you know, another opportunityto help be a disciple, to help
(33:54):
be a sort of testament of goodin this world right, of good in
this world, right.
So to me, the private prayer isactually in those moments of
stillness and quiet where maybeI'm driving somewhere or I'm in
an elevator right for twominutes and I just think for a
(34:17):
second in my head I'm just likeyou know what.
Thank you Lord.
Thank you Like I'm just likeyou know what.
Thank you Lord, thank you LikeI'm just utterly blessed.
So to me, what I engage in a lotof private prayer is those
in-between moments of maybe itsounds bad, but those in-between
moments of the noise, if youwill.
(34:40):
Right, I'm in a meeting or I'min the job site and it's loud,
but we all have moments ofstillness and quietness right
when our minds sort of startflooding with the issues oh, I
forgot to do this, or I forgotto do that, or I shouldn't have
told my wife this, or Ishouldn't have told her that or
this or whatever, told my wifethis, or I shouldn't have told
her that or this or whatever,but I find myself just
(35:03):
constantly kind of turning backand trying to do something more
positive with those moments,which is, I guess, from my
perspective, is just beingthankful, really, you know let
me jump in and then now you cango on.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
I have a very weird prayer life, so do I.
My prayer life is apophatic,now I know, but I need to
explain what that means.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Wasn't that a.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Civil War no.
Apophatics no, that's apomaticsoh.
I'm sorry, you're right, jeez,god forgive him.
He does not know what he isdoing.
Okay, apophatic meaning myprayer is very wordless, I don't
use words.
There's an old man.
A long, long time ago I wastalking to an old old man and we
(35:57):
were talking about prayer andhe said something that describes
perfectly what I have come to.
And I said well, how do youpray?
And he said he sits before Godanywhere and he says I look at
him and he looks at me andthat's it.
In other words, there is astillness, a stillness of being
(36:22):
present and in common union.
And I would add I look at him,he looks at me, but I watch him
watching me, because a lot oftimes when he's watching me, I
gain insight into what he'ssaying to me, but it's not.
(36:46):
I find it hard to use manywords in prayer because I think
they're wasted for me, and so,at most, I'll use a few words
Whenever I encounter a realitythat is making me feel and I
have feelings that I know arenot correct all I do is inside
(37:10):
of me, I just stare at him, andhim is just darkness.
Who's him?
God?
Okay, I stare at him, but him,he's in the darkness.
And I just said lift me up,meaning change my gaze, my cause
.
I'm looking through the eye.
(37:31):
I'm looking through the eyes ofchange my gaze.
Yeah, because my feelings arebeing reflected by the way.
I'm looking at something, right, you know, for example, I could
look at somebody who makes mevery angry and when I say lift
me up, I just mean help me tosee this person like you see him
(37:54):
, and not just all in myfeelings.
Or if I look at a beautifulwoman sexually and I I can say
I'm fine, but lift me up so Ican look at her as your daughter
, so that it's not the denial ofyour present experience
emotionally, but it's thetransfiguration of that
(38:15):
experience through see, here'smy Transfiguration, yeah.
Or what's the word?
I don know, but here's.
Here's the point.
Remember what I said.
The definition of love is yes,love is the decision to unite
yourself with god in caring forthe good of another, no matter
(38:37):
how you feel.
The the moment I start praying,the very first thing I have to
do is unite myself with God.
And so, even when we pray thatlittle, you can come back and
you go on the other side.
But when we pray, when welisten to that, I say a little
prayer for you.
Yes, every time you pray foranother person, what the heck
(38:59):
are you doing?
You are uniting yourself withGod, right, and caring for the
good of the other, no matter howyou feel.
That's what you're doing, right, love, okay, you're joining in
God's love for another person oranother thing.
So, and we'll get into Jewishprivate prayer when we come back
this is KMTH 1070, and we'll beright back.
Speaker 7 (39:19):
AM10 when we come back.
Speaker 9 (39:20):
This is KMTH 1070 and we'll be right back AM 1070,.
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The answer.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Oh the girl from Ipanema, yes, the girl from.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Ipanema.
Yes, the girl from Ipanema goeswalking and when she passes,
when she passes goes, ah, whenshe walks she's like a summer
that swings so cool and sways sogently that when she passes,
when, she passes goes.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
Oh, enjoy it, baby, because it's all going to rot.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Welcome back to A Show of Faith.
I'll answer instead of theanswer.
Can I tell her All right,welcome back to A Show of Faith.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
You're allowing yourself to be carried off by
the girl from Ipanema.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Okay, now say a prayer and come back to reality.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Just a couple of asides.
My first pulpit coming out ofseminary after ordination was in
Greenville, mississippi.
And in going to the South, youknow we were told the Jewish
community is heavily influencedby the Protestant community of
the South and you will be at acongregant's home, you will be
(42:56):
out doing something in the worldand everybody present will look
at you and say, rabbi, lead usin a prayer.
And from that second on you'reon and you better be able to.
You know pardon the wordproduce Okay, and the best
(43:17):
advice I ever got was look atyour feelings, look at the
circumstances and express whatyou feel.
That you know.
It could be as simple as thankyou, god, for the friendships
that we share on the air.
Okay, it can be any, but speakfrom the heart.
(43:38):
Tell me the statement that whenyou speak from the heart, your
words will go to the heart and Ithink that prayer.
You know how weeks, well, itcould be months by now.
We were talking about art as anexpression of the soul.
Yes, to the soul, yes.
(43:59):
And the artist, the painter,the sculptor, whatever medium
they work in, they're expressinga part of themselves in what
they are making and then, whenanother person sees it what the
artist has expressed.
They feel Okay.
They feel Okay and onlythinking about it for tonight,
(44:24):
mario, but I think there's anelement of that when we pray
from the heart, when we're andit doesn't matter if it's what
were your few words of prayer?
Epiphatic, no, no, no, when youwould pray you would say, oh
yeah, oh, I would just lift meup, right, lift me up, but
(44:48):
that's a hope of the heart,that's a request of the heart,
it's an expression of the heartand soul.
Yes, and I think that that ispersonal and private, but I
think it's connective, it isokay.
I think it is uh, what's your?
Uh, it's religion, religios,whatever the word is really.
(45:12):
God, which?
Speaker 4 (45:13):
is.
That's why I said to reconnect.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
To reconnect, okay, you are connecting yourself with
God, who is greater.
And to me, when I was a kid inreligious school, okay, we had
what basically you could call acatechism, as funny as that may
sound to you, but it wasbasically statement, statement,
(45:35):
statement, statement, statement.
And what is prayer?
Prayer is talking to God,prayer is talking to God.
Prayer is talking to God.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
I mean it was liturgical but it was almost a.
It's interesting because wehave a very similar thing, but
in Catholic theology it's prayer, lifting your mind and heart to
God.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
And there are different ways to me of saying
the same thing.
Yeah, okay, but we're comingout of time.
But in well David, in Catholicthought, is there anything at
all at all that would beclassified as a wasted prayer?
(46:19):
Let me explain what I'm talkingabout.
Interesting yeah, okay, I'mdriving home and I see a fire
engine head into theneighborhood and my instinct
might be oh, please, god, don'tlet that be my home.
But it's either your home orit's not your home.
By saying the prayer, the fireisn't going to jump from one
(46:41):
home to another.
It's a brachalavatala, it's awasted prayer, prayer for
nothingness.
Okay, better to say, better topray.
Please, god, give those firemenstrength to help whoever needs
the help.
Please speed their way to getthere in time.
That's a real prayer.
But please don't let it be myhouse.
(47:03):
It's either already your houseor it's already not your house
and the prayer is not going to.
It's a wasted prayer.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Well, we don't ever use those terms a wasted prayer,
but I would say that kind ofthing.
You know, even I have seencomments said that you should
not say, for example, I havebeen blessed with a lot of X, y,
(47:30):
z, I've been blessed with this,or, thanks be to God, it didn't
happen to me, because whatyou're basically saying is as
long as this happens to somebodyelse'm okay, I'm okay, yeah, so
I don't know, uh for us.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
So there's a direction to pray well, not
direction.
There's a, there's a movementtowards a better prayer.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
Yeah, well, I think that there's better prayers and
worse prayers.
Yeah, me too, you know, becauseyou basically that's why the
apostles asked Jesus teach us topray, because we don't know how
and we can pray badly.
And even St Paul says you don'tget what you ask for because
you ask wrongly.
It's interesting because for aChristian I like to say this to
(48:15):
people and people, because Jesussays in the Gospels he says
says ask for whatever.
Whatever you will ask in myname, and people think, oh, okay
, I, if I say I want to win thelottery in jesus name, in jesus
name, okay, in my name, does notmean that what does it mean?
it means, for example, if I sayto you stewart, would you please
(48:39):
?
I'm, I'm not well and I need tobe re-presented at a meeting
and I'm asking you to go andrepresent me.
Okay, am I asking you to go inmy name?
Am I asking you to go in thereand do whatever the heck you
want?
Speaker 2 (48:59):
No.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
I am notice what I am doing.
I am trusting that you know mewell enough, right that?
I can represent you that youcan represent in my name means
you are inside of my, my willwhat I would want.
When jesus says what you wantin his name, it means that you
are in such common union withhim that your wills are almost
(49:25):
identical Not quite, but you'rein the common union of in his
name you can represent him.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
And somehow I just don't think that God necessarily
wants me to have that lottery.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
No, rudy, get in here .
What do you want to say aboutthis?
Speaker 5 (49:45):
Brother, you're never going to win the lottery.
I know God loves you that much.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Every time.
Speaker 5 (49:55):
I play.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
It's a lesson from God that I'm not going to win.
Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 5 (50:01):
Well, I think there's another level too to what
you're talking about.
I mean, fundamentally whatyou're speaking.
It's not necessarily a wastedthing, right with the example
you gave.
But I was thinking, what if youtake it up another notch?
What if I say something likeyou know, rabbi really kicked me
(50:23):
off today.
I hope Jesus, he, you know he'sprecious to something right,
like wishing, praying forsomething malicious to somebody
else, and I think I don't knowif in God's infinite mercy there
would be.
But I think he's capable ofgrabbing all moments and all
(50:47):
prayers to kind of change theheart of man, if you will.
But I think there are somethings that I think people
engage in that are just greedyand to some respect also sinful,
I would argue, because you'rejust thinking there and you want
(51:07):
something you know to get aheadon somebody or to get over
something.
And, like you said, it's notlike I don't want, I'm not
praying that that not be myhouse.
I pray that those people aren'thome, regardless of whose house
that is right or regardless ofwho's working there, and I think
(51:29):
it just speaks about a majority, sorry.
It speaks about the maturity ofan individual and their prayer
life and how well they areconnected sort of to that
message of love of God, thatkind of dictates how.
I don't want to say how well ornot well they pray right, but
(51:51):
at least how meaningful they areOn that line on how we pray.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
This is an email that we got from a very long-time
listener who calls himselfPresbyterian Mark, and he writes
Guys, one thing that greatlychanged my prayer life was
reading Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Bonhoeffer stressed that theLord's Prayer is the prayer the
Christian must pray.
So why not structure yourprayer to follow the format of
the Lord's Prayer?
(52:16):
It gets the emphasis off ofwhat you want from God and
focuses you on making God's willbe done on earth, as it is
already done in heaven.
Grace and peace.
Presbyterian.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
Mark.
But it asks give us this dayour daily bread.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yeah, make our necessities, meet our
necessities, meet ournecessities.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
Right.
Yeah, I want to say somethingbefore we get too far.
I have no idea when the showends anymore, is it?
Speaker 2 (52:45):
back on 5 seconds after, or is it back on?
Speaker 3 (52:50):
you know, I'm saying this to people in case you mess
up because we're going to messup.
I think it's back to normal.
Is it back to normal?
I think so 59, 50 because Corey.
No, I think it's back to normal.
I think it really is.
Is it back?
To normal, I think so 59, 59,59, 50.
Right, because Corey told ussomething different.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
Well then, the machine changed.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Let's assume it's back to normal.
Speaker 3 (53:13):
But if I do the ending and nothing happens, Then
it's the machine's fault.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
It's the machine's fault.
Speaker 3 (53:20):
Okay, well, because it's now machine's fault.
It's the machine's fault.
Okay, well, because it's now8.59.
Right, and so that means we'reworking on the understanding
that we have 50 seconds.
Yes, okay.
So thank you for participating.
I think this was a veryinteresting topic.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
So do I, and Tom and Mark.
Thank you for your emails.
Speaker 3 (53:38):
Yep, yep.
Very good, who's in charge nextweek?
Speaker 2 (53:42):
Thank you for your emails.
Yep, yep.
Speaker 5 (53:45):
Very good, who's in charge next week?
Last week we called me Davidcan be here.
David, it's not.
I think it may be you, rabbi.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
Yeah, I think it's that was two weeks ago, wasn't I
David?
Yeah, two weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
Well, we'll figure it out.
Speaker 3 (53:57):
We'll figure it out.
Okay Well, we'll figure it out.
We'll figure it out.
Okay Well, you have been—pleasestay warm.
It's going to get cold, reallycold.
It's already cold.
So you've been listening to ashow of faith here on KNTH 1070,
the Answer Keep us in yourprayers because you're going to
be in.
Speaker 7 (54:13):
Find us at am1070theanswercom.
Download our apps.
Stream us 24-7.
Knth and K277DE-FM Houston.
Thank you.
Love comes down with a divorce, son.
Well, it takes a storm, baby,but I'm strong to do the door,
cause I gotta have faith.
I gotta have faith Cause I gotto have faith, faith, faith.
I got to have faith, faith,faith, faith.
Baby, I know you're asking meto stay.
(00:23):
Say, please, please, please,don't go away.
You see I'm giving you theblues.
Maybe there you knew every wordyou say.
I can't help but think ofyesterday and I know you tied me
down to love a boy.
Blues Before this river becomesan ocean, before you throw my
(00:46):
heart back on the floor.
Oh, baby, I reconsider myfoolish notion, but I need
someone to hold me back.
But I'll wait for somethingmore.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yes, I gotta have faith.
Welcome to A Show of Faithwhere a professor, priest,
millennial and rabbi discusstheology and philosophy and
anything else of interest inreligion.
If you have any response to ourtopics or any comments
regarding what we say, we wouldlove to hear from you.
Please email us at ashowoffaithat hotmailcom.
You can hear our shows againand again by listening pretty
(01:20):
much everywhere podcasts areheard.
Our priest is Fr Mario Arroyo,retired pastor of St Cyril of
Alexandria in the 10,000 blockof Vostok.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
An honor to be with you.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Our professor, david Capes is our Baptist minister
and director of academicprogramming for the Laniero
Theological Library, but hecan't be with us tonight.
Rudy Cohn is our millennial.
He's a systems engineer and hashis master's degree in theology
from the University of StThomas.
Are we done?
There he is.
I am Rabbi Stuart Federo,retired rabbi from Congregation
(01:52):
Jarhush-Alon, the Clear Lakearea of Houston, texas.
Jim Robinson is our producerand engineer, author of the book
I Am With you Always, matthew2820, a daily devotional.
Corey and Miranda are our boardoperators and together, jim and
Miranda and Corey help us soundfantastic.
And tonight we also have withus Valerie.
Hi, valerie, and welcome to AShow of Faith.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
It's good to be with you Good to be with you too.
The only thing I have to say toyou is I cannot hear a word
you're saying, because I have amicrophone but I don't have a
plug.
So we will just I'm able toparticipate, but not until they
get that little plug right, wealways have things we need to
(02:35):
plug.
Oh geez but anyway, why I amthe show?
Speaker 5 (02:42):
so I can talk over Mario and he can't hear me.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
What did he say?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Exactly that.
He said he can talk over youbecause you can't hear him.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
That's exactly correct.
I cannot.
So, here he comes, thank you.
Thank you, valerie.
I just got a little plugextension, but it may or may not
work.
No, it'll work, depending onwhether this is a screw-on.
It will not work.
It won't work Because there'stwo types there's a screw-on and
there's a the regular kind andthat's the regular kind.
(03:16):
So, anyway, yes, Tonight Iwould like to focus on prayer.
Tonight I would like to focuson prayer, the traditions of
prayer, both in the Jewish andin the Christian tradition.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yes, although.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
David's not here to defend himself tonight.
Well, no, I mean, I thinkprayer would be, you know,
somewhat the same in allChristian traditions, or at
least, well, maybe I'm notconvinced of that.
No, in Catholic tradition therewould be a much more, I would
say, a deeper reacher,understanding of prayer than in
a lot of the evangelicaltraditions.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
And I think evangelical tends to be only off
the heart.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Only what.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Free-flowing from the heart.
It's Free flowing from theheart.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
It's not texts, it's not liturgical.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
That's the word.
Thank you, there's no liturgyto it.
There's no liturgy to it, whichmeans that your discussion of
prayer and my discussion ofprayer are going to be a lot
more overlapped.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Okay, so I would like to divide the night into two
different sections.
One is what we would callliturgical prayer, that is, the
prayer that we do when we cometogether, and, in liturgy,
richard Averbeck In liturgy,darrell Bock In liturgy.
Now, would you define what youthink liturgy is, richard?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Averbeck, a specific text that you go through in
prayer.
It's a specific text that youread, either out loud or to
yourself, or you chant withother people, but it begins with
a specific pre-written text.
It's a liturgy.
It could be in the form of agroup prayer, responsive reading
(05:05):
, I'm not sure what else to callit, but it's a specific text.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Well, and it's interesting because it's a
specific text, but I don't knowif you would agree with me on
this, but I would say that it ismore—I'm speaking more of a
Catholic understanding.
Okay, You're speaking to Godthrough the liturgy, through a
(05:38):
preset kind of format.
But I think God already knowswhat you're going to say.
So I think it's more for theperson.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Absolutely, absolutely.
What do you mean by that?
A couple of things.
First of all, there are plentyof times where I've spoken to
somebody about not theliturgical form but the personal
prayer, and what's the firstthing they're going to say?
I don't know what to say.
Yes, and a liturgy gives youwhat to say.
(06:07):
When David wrote the Psalms, heexpressed emotions and feelings
and the experiences that morethan just he had, and it gives
them the words to say or thethings to sing in the temple.
That's correct.
So I think that that's onething.
The other element to this isthat I don't think the purpose
(06:30):
of prayer, especially theliturgical kind let me rephrase
that I'm exclusively talkingabout the liturgical kind I
don't think the purpose ofprayer is to tell God what we
need.
I don't think it's gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, now, now, now,
or I'm not going to believe inyou I think the function and
purpose of that kind of prayeryou know there's an old prayer
(06:52):
book.
I haven't seen it or used it ina long time.
It's an old prayer book and thetext read the person who rises
from prayer a better person,that is, the person whose
prayers have been answered.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
That's very good.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
In other words, the Jewish view of especially
liturgical prayer is that it'snot supposed to change God.
Hey God, I need this.
Hey God, let me win the lottery.
Yes, okay, it's to changeourselves, that's correct, and
to align ourselves and our willwith the will of God.
That's exactly right.
But I think there's also inJudaism, I think it's true in
(07:33):
Catholicism, david's not here todefend himself, but I don't
think it's there, and that isthat it is speaking of Judaism.
It's an Eastern religion, it'snot a Western religion.
We don't call it the MiddleEast, we don't call it Middle
West, we call it the Middle East.
And when you think of Easternprayer, you think of meditations
(07:58):
, you think of the meditativestate.
That liturgical prayer puts youin meditative state.
That liturgical prayer puts youin Mario.
There have been plenty of timeswhere something happened in the
world, whatever, and there wouldbe a part of the liturgy that
struck me as pertinent towhatever the event was.
My point is that when I wouldpoint it out to everybody, it
(08:25):
was literally like I broke themfrom a trance Light, not very
deep, but nevertheless ameditative state, which we call
a trance.
No, we don't.
That's a bad term.
Forget the word trance, yeah,but it's a meditative state
they're in.
And when I say now, on pagewhatever, when it says this, you
(08:49):
know, we remember that today'snewspaper told us that, or
whatever.
But when I first start speaking, that's not the liturgy.
It's like what, what do you say?
What?
It's like they're coming out ofsomething a a meditative state
that, even very lightly, theliturgical service puts them in.
The purpose of prayer or thefunction of liturgical prayer is
(09:12):
it puts you in a meditativestate that I believe is meant to
transcend time and space.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Well, I think it's also the purpose of pre-written
prayers, because that's whatliturgy is.
Yes, it's a set of actions andit's a set of words that are
prescribed.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Body motions included Body motions and that are
prescribed.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Now, a lot of times I hear people saying well, you
know, you've got to pray fromthe heart.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
And they're right, yes.
But you can still do that as ameditation too.
Yes, right.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
But what their meaning is?
Their meaning express you,express what's in your heart to
God.
But within the liturgy there isroom for that same thing there
is, but the chief purpose ofliturgy is to go the other way.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
And I would say, from a Jewish perspective, the chief
, would you call it purpose?
Yeah, purpose of Jewish prayerisn't, is not the what's the
opposite of liturgical, from theheart, what you were just
talking about.
(10:22):
Yeah, I don't believe thatthat's the purpose of the 90,
well, I don't know whatpercentage, but a huge
percentage of Jewish prayer isfrom the liturgy, the Siddur,
the prayer book, and there'sroom within it for the from the
heart, from the soul andoutpouring of the heart and soul
.
There's room for it.
(10:42):
There's a part of the prayer isservice that is read in silence
.
But you don't know what I'msaying.
I don't know what you're saying.
I could be pouring out my heartto God, I could be ignoring the
liturgy Anything's possible butthat's the point at which
you're talking to God directlyfrom the heart and soul.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
But I still understand that liturgical
prayer.
When we get together for Mass,for example, I always let me
back up from this perspective.
I always tell people, I askpeople, how do you pray?
And 98% of the time people say,well, I talk to God and I go.
There's your problem.
(11:22):
There's your problem, you knowwhy?
Because 98% of prayer should belistening to God, not talking
to God.
When you are talking to God,it's you who's talking and in
order for a prayer to besuccessful is for you to listen
(11:45):
to God, for God's Word to getinside of you and to begin to
reformat you in the image andlikeness of the God you're
praying to.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
So to me see—.
But is that necessarily done bylistening or by by reciting?
Speaker 3 (12:05):
yes, but see, in reciting you are actually
listening, like for example whenI say an example for example,
let the lord's prayer.
When I say our father who archin heaven, hallowed be thy name.
I know I saying it to God, butthe echoes of those words are
(12:28):
firing inside of me in all kindsof different places.
They're preset.
But I am hearing much more andI am being changed by those
words Like one thing, give meone thing.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
You're hearing that you're changed by in those same
words.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
The moment I say Our Father, I feel very much notice.
It's not my Father, it is our,our, and so I'm feeling, the
very moment I say our Father, Iam almost, I am transported
intellectually andimagination-wise to the presence
(13:05):
of God in all people, that it'sall of us approaching God as a
family.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Darrell Bock.
So you're listening to thewords which become a reminder to
you, richard Averbeck, that'scorrect.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
They echo Darrell Bock.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
And basically on their content.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Richard Averbeck.
Not only they echo, they bringforth all kinds of different
things memories and ideas andthings like that and they may be
words that I'm saying to God,but he already knows what's
coming.
He taught us that, and so theprayer is more for it to form me
than it is for that, then Rudy,we're going to get your input
(13:41):
when we come back from the thick, because I think you have
probably a very similar Catholicunderstanding than I do.
Okay, by the way, I can hearyou now, rudy.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
So now you've got to be careful.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Oh.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
Lord Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
This is KNTH 1070, and we'll be right back.
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Speaker 5 (16:16):
Oh, a little prayer for you the moment I wake up.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Before I put on my makeup I say a little prayer for
you, clever Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Welcome back to the.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Show of Faith, and I am considering the answer.
Rudy, join in.
What are your understandings oryour thoughts or your
ruminations on this?
Speaker 5 (16:49):
My ruminations, you know, to me you guys are talking
about.
So we're talking about prayer,right, and the importance that
it has and how it's sort of howit's distinct, okay, and
fundamentally, when, for example, the Lord's Prayer right, or
(17:10):
Rabbi, the Psalms, we'relistening.
So when we speak it out, we'realso hearing something right.
But we're speaking out and alsohearing the Word of God, the
literal Word of God, spokenright.
So something about prayer andsomething that has always kind
(17:32):
of fascinated me is it'sparticularly contemplative
prayer, and contemplative prayeris sort of exactly what it
sounds like.
It's fundamentally rooted inScripture, right, and
individuals they sort ofencounter God in silence.
(17:54):
You know, the Catechism talksabout the silent love right, the
simple gaze upon God, and thisis why the liturgy is so
important.
But I also wanted to talk aboutsomething else, because to me
and for the Maranoses I've justfound, there's a lot of mystical
(18:15):
aspects, at least within theCatholic tradition, associated
with prayer and particularlycontemplative prayer, and I can
get into that a little bit later.
You have saints like Teresa ofAvila and St John of the Cross,
you know, who experienced allkinds of things, and even Fr
Pino Spetralcini, you know,which is a more modern
(18:38):
contemporary mystic who died, Ithink, in 67, 68.
But what's interesting to me isthe actual studies that have
been done around prayer andthere's something called I don't
know if you guys are aware, butthere's delta waves, beta waves
, alpha waves, right, it's kindof these wave frequencies that
(18:59):
the brain engages in that areassociated with essentially
different modes that we findourselves in, for example, when
we're sleeping or when we're outthere or when we're this.
So they've actually scannedbrains, done MRIs, done all
sorts of stuff, and it'sinteresting that when people
(19:23):
engage in genuine right that'sone thing that I caught in one
of the articles you sent out.
It says right here prayerwithout concentration is aching
to a lifeless body.
Okay, and I think that's a Saythat body.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Okay, say that again.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Would you say that again?
Speaker 5 (19:51):
Prayer without concentration is aching to a
lifeless body.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Is akin to what A lifeless body Akin to a lifeless
body.
Yeah, he was saying Akin.
And that's because he's one ofthese dad-burned Hispanics who
doesn't know how to speakEnglish.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I'm beginning to think.
Let me tell you.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
Good thing, I know how to build things up.
Okay, so when people haveengaged in genuine contemplative
prayer, then what we found isthat these individuals actually,
especially over prolongedperiods of time, have actual
(20:42):
brain structure changes changes,for example, they did a huge
what I mean huge is time.
So they grabbed these nuns andthey studied their brain waves
for a long time and they sawthat these nuns had increased
gray matter density, inparticular areas linked to
(21:03):
empathy and emotional regulation.
So as individuals engage ingenuine prayer, it's almost like
that connection to divine, tothe transcendent, is able to
kind of better manage, or allowus to manage with more peace,
(21:24):
the sort of the chaos of thisworld.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah, it's actually quite.
I think what rudy's justbasically saying is that prayer
is good for you, is physicallygood for you they have good for
you.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, they have studies of hindu priests that
also show incredible controlover over their bodies, body
functions.
But, rudy, I don't need scienceto tell me that prayer is a
good thing.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
I see Well the good thing is that science can't deny
it.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Right.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Okay, well, I think it's important, you know, I
think it's important not for uswho are religious, but for
people who are skeptical ofreligion.
Right Because these dayseverybody wants to say religion
is useless, you know?
And what's the point of it?
And I think what a lot ofscientific confirmation of
(22:23):
religion does is it doesn'tconvert anyone.
But it does make the case forreligion more plausible
especially to those who might beskeptical that's right, and
it's easier to defend right thanit is, because we're right now,
in terms of religion, we are ina in a culture that is very
(22:43):
inimical to religion.
It's it's very anti-religion,and so um it.
By the way, I am I am just justas a side note I am reading a
book that is just amazing onprayer no on on religion and
science, but it's a critique ofof the scientific attack on
(23:07):
religion and it it's by DavidBerlinski and it's called the
Devil's Delusion.
The Devil's Delusion.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
The.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Devil's Delusion.
It's excellent.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
That sounds like a response to Hitchin or one of
those Berlinski.
It's B-E-R.
The God Delusion.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
No, no, but that's why this is the opposite.
Right, the Devil's Delusion?
No, no, but that's why this isthe opposite.
Right, the devil's delusion.
The devil's delusion isBerlinski B-E-R-L-I-N-S-K-I.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
I okay.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Yeah, and it's very, very good.
But he's talking about thepoint of, you know, of science,
that science just exaggeratesall over the place and they make
believe that they have allkinds of surety on all kinds of
teachings and when they don't.
When you try to connect thedots, and he's a scientist
(23:59):
himself and he says this is justbull.
So anyway, we got to go to abreak.
So this is 1070 KNTH.
You're listening to the Show ofFaith and we will be right back
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Dream Whenever I want you.
All I have to do is dream,dream, dream dream when I feel
blue In the night and I need youto.
I have to do Is dream I canmake you mine.
Speaker 9 (27:07):
Taste those lips of wine.
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Anytime, night or day .
Only trouble is Dream wins.
I'm dreaming my life away.
Three, four, welcome back tothe show.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
No, they just don't sing it like that anymore.
Those are some wonderful songs.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Anyway, you were going to say something, you were
going to react A couple ofthings, but first of all, it's
kind of the same thing, but it'sa little bit of a different
angle.
You mentioned earlier aboutthat.
We need to listen to the prayer.
Yes, it's kind of the samething, but it's a little bit of
a different angle.
You mentioned earlier aboutthat.
We need to listen to the prayer.
Yes, and by listening to theprayer, we're listening to God.
That's correct.
Okay, there's a Liturgicalprayer, liturgical prayer, but
(27:53):
there's a.
What I'm trying to say is thatJudaism also has this idea of
praying from the soul, prayingfrom the you know, which is not
liturgical prayer.
That's what we're going to next, which is… Private prayer.
Private prayer from the heart,from the soul.
Okay, and there's a saying thatI have read, that when we pray
(28:19):
not the liturgical, but from theheart and soul, when we pray,
it's us speaking to God.
When we study the Biblereligion, that's when God speaks
to us.
I just thought that wasinteresting.
That is interesting.
Right, all right.
Second thing is we have email.
Okay, what is it?
Thank you, rudy for pointing itout to me.
This is from Tom in Alabama.
(28:40):
And thank you, rudy forpointing it out to me, this is
from Tom in Albin.
Is there anything contrary tothe Jewish religion in the
Lord's Prayer, aka the OurFather, in other words, would
there be any reason a Jew couldnot recite that prayer?
Yes, if you take a look at thedifferent parts to the Lord's
Prayer, you can find antecedentsin Judaism for every one,
(29:06):
almost every one, no, I'm prettysure every one.
At the end, however and I knowwhat you're going to say, morrow
it's not technically part ofthe Lord's Prayer.
What's that Most people end it?
Many denominations end it with…the power and the glory, and
all that In the name of theFather, son and Holy Spirit.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Oh yeah, no, no, no, yeah, that's not part of it.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
It's not part of it, but it's added to it by many
different denominations.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yeah, well, that….
No, no, no, it's not added atthe end, it started at the
beginning.
Okay, what do you mean?
In other words, when you'regoing to pray the Our Father,
the difference between Catholicand Protestant is that the Our
Father, at the end we say leadus not into temptation, but
deliver us from evil.
That ends the Catholic.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
The Protestant goes on for thine is the kingdom, the
power and the glory, now andforever.
In the name of the Father andthe Son of the Holy Spirit is
the invocation when you startany kind of prayer.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Okay, that part of it which I have heard is ending
the Lord's Prayer is obviouslynot going to be a Judaism.
It is not.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
It is not.
I've never in 47 years….
I knew you were going to saythis 47 years I've been a priest
.
I've never heard an Our Fatherend.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
At Protestant services Never priest, I've
never heard and our father andat protestant service never.
Okay, all right.
The other aspect of this isthat it is, in fact, a christian
prayer.
So, and david and I have gotteninto this, by the way, it
gotten it, whatever the word isin disagreement over this?
Okay, okay, but if you startreciting that prayer, to my
(30:41):
knowledge, anybody and everybodyisn't going to start thinking
about the Jewish antecedentsthat created it or the milieu in
which it was developed orcreated.
Okay, they're going to hear itas a Christian prayer.
And because it is a Christianprayer and associated as a
Christian prayer no, the Jewswould not recite it Right and
associated as a Christian prayerno, the Jews would not recite
(31:02):
it.
Interesting Right there's anadmonition in I believe it's
Deuteronomy that basically saysdon't do things to me the way
other people do to their gods.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Interesting Right See .
For us, that may be one of thebig differences Because, like
whenever, I am between Jews andChristians because, like, for
example, when I went to yourservices, I could pray along
exactly with what you werepraying, because we're not going
to have anything that's goingto exclude you.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
That's correct, but as soon as a Christian church
brings in a prayer that is…Exclusively Christian …then that
excludes us.
Yes, that is correct.
Which is the problem withalthough it's not our topic,
that's the problem with publicworship.
Yeah, whether it's aninvocation before a meal or
before a baseball game, or whathave you, gary, or before a
baseball game, or what have you.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
Rudy.
Gary, it's just just going backto Collins.
I understood it more with theactual words.
I understand what you mean,Rabbi, with it being, of course,
everybody.
When you say the Lord's Prayer,you think a Christian prayer,
right, and I get that.
But I guess I sort ofunderstood it as is there any
(32:25):
issue with the actual content,or is it because it's?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
a Christian prayer that it's no, no, no, only if
there was something in it thatwas exclusively Christian.
But from Mario's perspective,it doesn't exist in there.
But as I said it's not Mario'sperspective.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
It is the exist in there but, as I said, it's not
Mario's perspective, it is theactual academic perspective.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Absolutely, mario, absolutely Exactly as you say,
but there are every singleelement of it you can find in
Jewish sources preceding orleading up to the time of Jesus
Do?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
you know why Do you?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
know why do you?
Speaker 3 (33:03):
know why?
Why?
Because it was composed by ajew or a group of them jesus
yeah, I know who you meant.
Yes, right so it was composedby a jew, so you would think
that it was had antecedents injewish prayer, which is what you
would expect.
That's correct.
Right, that's correct.
Now let's go into privateprayer.
Yes, okay, rudy, why don't youstart it out?
(33:26):
Comment on private prayer.
Speaker 5 (33:32):
I think, for my personal sort of undertaking.
I find that to me it's sort ofwhat I engage in every day.
So as soon as I wake up, right,thank you Lord for another day,
you know, another opportunityto help be a disciple, to help
(33:54):
be a sort of testament of goodin this world right, of good in
this world, right.
So to me, the private prayer isactually in those moments of
stillness and quiet where maybeI'm driving somewhere or I'm in
an elevator right for twominutes and I just think for a
(34:17):
second in my head I'm just likeyou know what.
Thank you Lord.
Thank you Like I'm just likeyou know what.
Thank you Lord, thank you LikeI'm just utterly blessed.
So to me, what I engage in a lotof private prayer is those
in-between moments of maybe itsounds bad, but those in-between
moments of the noise, if youwill.
(34:40):
Right, I'm in a meeting or I'min the job site and it's loud,
but we all have moments ofstillness and quietness right
when our minds sort of startflooding with the issues oh, I
forgot to do this, or I forgotto do that, or I shouldn't have
told my wife this, or Ishouldn't have told her that or
this or whatever, told my wifethis, or I shouldn't have told
her that or this or whatever,but I find myself just
(35:03):
constantly kind of turning backand trying to do something more
positive with those moments,which is, I guess, from my
perspective, is just beingthankful, really, you know let
me jump in and then now you cango on.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
I have a very weird prayer life, so do I.
My prayer life is apophatic,now I know, but I need to
explain what that means.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Wasn't that a.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Civil War no.
Apophatics no, that's apomaticsoh.
I'm sorry, you're right, jeez,god forgive him.
He does not know what he isdoing.
Okay, apophatic meaning myprayer is very wordless, I don't
use words.
There's an old man.
A long, long time ago I wastalking to an old old man and we
(35:57):
were talking about prayer andhe said something that describes
perfectly what I have come to.
And I said well, how do youpray?
And he said he sits before Godanywhere and he says I look at
him and he looks at me andthat's it.
In other words, there is astillness, a stillness of being
(36:22):
present and in common union.
And I would add I look at him,he looks at me, but I watch him
watching me, because a lot oftimes when he's watching me, I
gain insight into what he'ssaying to me, but it's not.
(36:46):
I find it hard to use manywords in prayer because I think
they're wasted for me, and so,at most, I'll use a few words
Whenever I encounter a realitythat is making me feel and I
have feelings that I know arenot correct all I do is inside
(37:10):
of me, I just stare at him, andhim is just darkness.
Who's him?
God?
Okay, I stare at him, but him,he's in the darkness.
And I just said lift me up,meaning change my gaze, my cause
.
I'm looking through the eye.
(37:31):
I'm looking through the eyes ofchange my gaze.
Yeah, because my feelings arebeing reflected by the way.
I'm looking at something, right, you know, for example, I could
look at somebody who makes mevery angry and when I say lift
me up, I just mean help me tosee this person like you see him
(37:54):
, and not just all in myfeelings.
Or if I look at a beautifulwoman sexually and I I can say
I'm fine, but lift me up so Ican look at her as your daughter
, so that it's not the denial ofyour present experience
emotionally, but it's thetransfiguration of that
(38:15):
experience through see, here'smy Transfiguration, yeah.
Or what's the word?
I don know, but here's.
Here's the point.
Remember what I said.
The definition of love is yes,love is the decision to unite
yourself with god in caring forthe good of another, no matter
(38:37):
how you feel.
The the moment I start praying,the very first thing I have to
do is unite myself with God.
And so, even when we pray thatlittle, you can come back and
you go on the other side.
But when we pray, when welisten to that, I say a little
prayer for you.
Yes, every time you pray foranother person, what the heck
(38:59):
are you doing?
You are uniting yourself withGod, right, and caring for the
good of the other, no matter howyou feel.
That's what you're doing, right, love, okay, you're joining in
God's love for another person oranother thing.
So, and we'll get into Jewishprivate prayer when we come back
this is KMTH 1070, and we'll beright back.
Speaker 7 (39:19):
AM10 when we come back.
Speaker 9 (39:20):
This is KMTH 1070 and we'll be right back AM 1070,.
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The answer.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Oh the girl from Ipanema, yes, the girl from.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Ipanema.
Yes, the girl from Ipanema goeswalking and when she passes,
when she passes goes, ah, whenshe walks she's like a summer
that swings so cool and sways sogently that when she passes,
when, she passes goes.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
Oh, enjoy it, baby, because it's all going to rot.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Welcome back to A Show of Faith.
I'll answer instead of theanswer.
Can I tell her All right,welcome back to A Show of Faith.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
You're allowing yourself to be carried off by
the girl from Ipanema.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Okay, now say a prayer and come back to reality.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Just a couple of asides.
My first pulpit coming out ofseminary after ordination was in
Greenville, mississippi.
And in going to the South, youknow we were told the Jewish
community is heavily influencedby the Protestant community of
the South and you will be at acongregant's home, you will be
(42:56):
out doing something in the worldand everybody present will look
at you and say, rabbi, lead usin a prayer.
And from that second on you'reon and you better be able to.
You know pardon the wordproduce Okay, and the best
(43:17):
advice I ever got was look atyour feelings, look at the
circumstances and express whatyou feel.
That you know.
It could be as simple as thankyou, god, for the friendships
that we share on the air.
Okay, it can be any, but speakfrom the heart.
(43:38):
Tell me the statement that whenyou speak from the heart, your
words will go to the heart and Ithink that prayer.
You know how weeks, well, itcould be months by now.
We were talking about art as anexpression of the soul.
Yes, to the soul, yes.
(43:59):
And the artist, the painter,the sculptor, whatever medium
they work in, they're expressinga part of themselves in what
they are making and then, whenanother person sees it what the
artist has expressed.
They feel Okay.
They feel Okay and onlythinking about it for tonight,
(44:24):
mario, but I think there's anelement of that when we pray
from the heart, when we're andit doesn't matter if it's what
were your few words of prayer?
Epiphatic, no, no, no, when youwould pray you would say, oh
yeah, oh, I would just lift meup, right, lift me up, but
(44:48):
that's a hope of the heart,that's a request of the heart,
it's an expression of the heartand soul.
Yes, and I think that that ispersonal and private, but I
think it's connective, it isokay.
I think it is uh, what's your?
Uh, it's religion, religios,whatever the word is really.
(45:12):
God, which?
Speaker 4 (45:13):
is.
That's why I said to reconnect.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
To reconnect, okay, you are connecting yourself with
God, who is greater.
And to me, when I was a kid inreligious school, okay, we had
what basically you could call acatechism, as funny as that may
sound to you, but it wasbasically statement, statement,
(45:35):
statement, statement, statement.
And what is prayer?
Prayer is talking to God,prayer is talking to God.
Prayer is talking to God.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
I mean it was liturgical but it was almost a.
It's interesting because wehave a very similar thing, but
in Catholic theology it's prayer, lifting your mind and heart to
God.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
And there are different ways to me of saying
the same thing.
Yeah, okay, but we're comingout of time.
But in well David, in Catholicthought, is there anything at
all at all that would beclassified as a wasted prayer?
(46:19):
Let me explain what I'm talkingabout.
Interesting yeah, okay, I'mdriving home and I see a fire
engine head into theneighborhood and my instinct
might be oh, please, god, don'tlet that be my home.
But it's either your home orit's not your home.
By saying the prayer, the fireisn't going to jump from one
(46:41):
home to another.
It's a brachalavatala, it's awasted prayer, prayer for
nothingness.
Okay, better to say, better topray.
Please, god, give those firemenstrength to help whoever needs
the help.
Please speed their way to getthere in time.
That's a real prayer.
But please don't let it be myhouse.
(47:03):
It's either already your houseor it's already not your house
and the prayer is not going to.
It's a wasted prayer.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Well, we don't ever use those terms a wasted prayer,
but I would say that kind ofthing.
You know, even I have seencomments said that you should
not say, for example, I havebeen blessed with a lot of X, y,
(47:30):
z, I've been blessed with this,or, thanks be to God, it didn't
happen to me, because whatyou're basically saying is as
long as this happens to somebodyelse'm okay, I'm okay, yeah, so
I don't know, uh for us.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
So there's a direction to pray well, not
direction.
There's a, there's a movementtowards a better prayer.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
Yeah, well, I think that there's better prayers and
worse prayers.
Yeah, me too, you know, becauseyou basically that's why the
apostles asked Jesus teach us topray, because we don't know how
and we can pray badly.
And even St Paul says you don'tget what you ask for because
you ask wrongly.
It's interesting because for aChristian I like to say this to
(48:15):
people and people, because Jesussays in the Gospels he says
says ask for whatever.
Whatever you will ask in myname, and people think, oh, okay
, I, if I say I want to win thelottery in jesus name, in jesus
name, okay, in my name, does notmean that what does it mean?
it means, for example, if I sayto you stewart, would you please
(48:39):
?
I'm, I'm not well and I need tobe re-presented at a meeting
and I'm asking you to go andrepresent me.
Okay, am I asking you to go inmy name?
Am I asking you to go in thereand do whatever the heck you
want?
Speaker 2 (48:59):
No.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
I am notice what I am doing.
I am trusting that you know mewell enough, right that?
I can represent you that youcan represent in my name means
you are inside of my, my willwhat I would want.
When jesus says what you wantin his name, it means that you
are in such common union withhim that your wills are almost
(49:25):
identical Not quite, but you'rein the common union of in his
name you can represent him.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
And somehow I just don't think that God necessarily
wants me to have that lottery.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
No, rudy, get in here .
What do you want to say aboutthis?
Speaker 5 (49:45):
Brother, you're never going to win the lottery.
I know God loves you that much.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Every time.
Speaker 5 (49:55):
I play.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
It's a lesson from God that I'm not going to win.
Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 5 (50:01):
Well, I think there's another level too to what
you're talking about.
I mean, fundamentally whatyou're speaking.
It's not necessarily a wastedthing, right with the example
you gave.
But I was thinking, what if youtake it up another notch?
What if I say something likeyou know, rabbi really kicked me
(50:23):
off today.
I hope Jesus, he, you know he'sprecious to something right,
like wishing, praying forsomething malicious to somebody
else, and I think I don't knowif in God's infinite mercy there
would be.
But I think he's capable ofgrabbing all moments and all
(50:47):
prayers to kind of change theheart of man, if you will.
But I think there are somethings that I think people
engage in that are just greedyand to some respect also sinful,
I would argue, because you'rejust thinking there and you want
(51:07):
something you know to get aheadon somebody or to get over
something.
And, like you said, it's notlike I don't want, I'm not
praying that that not be myhouse.
I pray that those people aren'thome, regardless of whose house
that is right or regardless ofwho's working there, and I think
(51:29):
it just speaks about a majority, sorry.
It speaks about the maturity ofan individual and their prayer
life and how well they areconnected sort of to that
message of love of God, thatkind of dictates how.
I don't want to say how well ornot well they pray right, but
(51:51):
at least how meaningful they areOn that line on how we pray.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
This is an email that we got from a very long-time
listener who calls himselfPresbyterian Mark, and he writes
Guys, one thing that greatlychanged my prayer life was
reading Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Bonhoeffer stressed that theLord's Prayer is the prayer the
Christian must pray.
So why not structure yourprayer to follow the format of
the Lord's Prayer?
(52:16):
It gets the emphasis off ofwhat you want from God and
focuses you on making God's willbe done on earth, as it is
already done in heaven.
Grace and peace.
Presbyterian.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
Mark.
But it asks give us this dayour daily bread.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yeah, make our necessities, meet our
necessities, meet ournecessities.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
Right.
Yeah, I want to say somethingbefore we get too far.
I have no idea when the showends anymore, is it?
Speaker 2 (52:45):
back on 5 seconds after, or is it back on?
Speaker 3 (52:50):
you know, I'm saying this to people in case you mess
up because we're going to messup.
I think it's back to normal.
Is it back to normal?
I think so 59, 50 because Corey.
No, I think it's back to normal.
I think it really is.
Is it back?
To normal, I think so 59, 59,59, 50.
Right, because Corey told ussomething different.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
Well then, the machine changed.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Let's assume it's back to normal.
Speaker 3 (53:13):
But if I do the ending and nothing happens, Then
it's the machine's fault.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
It's the machine's fault.
Speaker 3 (53:20):
Okay, well, because it's now machine's fault.
It's the machine's fault.
Okay, well, because it's now8.59.
Right, and so that means we'reworking on the understanding
that we have 50 seconds.
Yes, okay.
So thank you for participating.
I think this was a veryinteresting topic.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
So do I, and Tom and Mark.
Thank you for your emails.
Speaker 3 (53:38):
Yep, yep.
Very good, who's in charge nextweek?
Speaker 2 (53:42):
Thank you for your emails.
Yep, yep.
Speaker 5 (53:45):
Very good, who's in charge next week?
Last week we called me Davidcan be here.
David, it's not.
I think it may be you, rabbi.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
Yeah, I think it's that was two weeks ago, wasn't I
David?
Yeah, two weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
Well, we'll figure it out.
Speaker 3 (53:57):
We'll figure it out.
Okay Well, we'll figure it out.
We'll figure it out.
Okay Well, you have been—pleasestay warm.
It's going to get cold, reallycold.
It's already cold.
So you've been listening to ashow of faith here on KNTH 1070,
the Answer Keep us in yourprayers because you're going to
be in.
Speaker 7 (54:13):
Find us at am1070theanswercom.
Download our apps.
Stream us 24-7.
Knth and K277DE-FM Houston.
Thank you.
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