May 19, 2025 • 54 mins
The boundary between religious tradition and indoctrination takes center stage as we tackle Texas Senate Bill 10—a controversial measure requiring the Ten Commandments to be displayed in every public school classroom across the state.
Our conversation begins with a delightful detour as Rudy shares the publication of his new book, "Lasting Scars," giving us a glimpse into the challenges of writing and publishing. But soon we dive into deeper waters, examining the fundamental question: when does teaching become indoctrination, and who has the right to shape young minds?
The Ten Commandments debate proves to be a fascinating lens through which to view larger cultural tensions. While these ancient precepts have undeniably influenced Western law and ethics, our panel questions whether simply posting them without context serves any real educational purpose. As Rabbi Federow pointedly observes, "Putting up a nice little sign, no matter how vitally important the verses are, is not going to change anything. It's virtue signaling."
We explore thorny questions of implementation: Which translation would be used? How would explicitly religious commandments be presented in secular schools? Would teachers have the knowledge or training to facilitate meaningful discussions?
One of our panelists suggests that perhaps the ideal outcome would be sparking conversations between parents and children, creating opportunities for families to discuss these profound moral issues together.
The discussion broadens to examine Project 2025 and the larger pattern of competing worldviews struggling to shape American culture. Whether from religious conservatives or secular progressives, these efforts reflect a more profound anxiety about who gets to define our shared values. One panelist wisely notes, "When dialogue ends, so does peace"—a reminder that thoughtful conversation across differences remains our best hope for navigating these complex waters.
What might seem like a simple matter of putting moral principles on a wall reveals itself to be a profound question about the future of American pluralism. Join us for this thought-provoking exploration of faith in the public square.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
There's something happening here.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
What it is ain't exactly clear.
There's a man with a gun overthere.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Telling me what I got to beware.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I think it's time we stop.
Children what's that?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
sound Everybody.
Look what's going down.
There's bad lines being drawn.
Nobody's right if everybody'swrong.
(00:48):
Young people speak in theirminds Getting so much resistance
from behind Every time we stop.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
hey, what's that sound?
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Everybody look what's going down?
Speaker 5 (01:06):
Welcome to A Show of Faith where a professor, priest,
millennial and rabbi discusstheology, philosophy, morality,
ethics and anything else ofinterest in religion.
If you have any response to ourtopics or any comments
regarding what we say, hey, we'dlove to hear from you.
Email us at ashowoffaith1070 atgmailcom.
Ashowoffaith1070 at gmailcom.
(01:27):
You can hear our shows againand again by listening.
Pretty much everywhere podcastsare heard.
Professor David Capes is ourBaptist minister, director of
academic programming for theLanier Theological Library.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Stuart, good to have you back, man.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
Great to be back.
Our priest is Father MarioArroyo, retired pastor of St
Cyril of Alexandria, the 10,000block of Westheimer, but he
can't be with us tonight.
Rudy Kohn is our millennial.
He's a systems engineer,master's degree in theology from
the University of St Thomas anda published author.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Arthur yes.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
David, you've got what 20, 30 books out.
You should know I are apublished Arthur.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Well, congratulations to Rudolph Kong.
I saw his book earlier today.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
I haven't had a chance to take a look at it, but
it looked really quitedelightful.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
It's a romance.
It looked really quitedelightful.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
It's a romance it's, I guess.
So it's kind of a bit ofromance, sort of family fiction,
but based on it's not like youknow, aliens and this kind of
stuff.
It's a fiction based on reallife, if you will.
Speaker 5 (02:44):
Historical novel, would you call it.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
No, not so much.
Speaker 5 (02:50):
No.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
No.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Is it based on your family, Rudy?
I mean, what's this?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
No, it's not.
Well, it's interesting becauseI read a book a while ago and
the book is prettystraightforward.
It's called how to Write andone of the things it talks about
is that some of the bestwriting comes about from even
fictional writing comes aboutfrom personal stories or
(03:20):
personal experiences, if youwill, that you can kind of mold
and shape accordingly.
So, for example, if I wanted todescribe to you a unicorn, I
could tell you what a horselooks like by describing a horse
, because I've seen a horse, andthen let your imagination
imagine the horn, and thenthat's where you kind of let the
(03:41):
fiction kind of come in.
And that's where you kind oflet the fiction kind of come in.
But I did a lot of work withyouth and I know Father Mario
would be my backup here toconfirming this.
But at St Cyril we had aprogram for essentially youth
ministry and young adultministry and I was very blessed
(04:04):
and I got to share with a lot ofteenagers and one of the things
that was actually one of themost difficult things to hear
was their testimonies where theywould share oh, rabbi and David
, just all kinds of, just greatthings but also terrible things,
(04:27):
but also terribly great things.
I don't know if I'm makingsense, but you just heard
everything.
So some of it is personalexperience, some of it is things
I mean.
At the end of the day, it's allkind of personal experience,
things that I've listened to,I've heard, I've participated in
, but it's not necessarilyanything particular that
(04:50):
happened to me.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
But, rudy truly, the best writing is what a person is
most familiar with, somethingyou know well and therefore your
book is probably great.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Well, thank you, ravel.
Thank you, yeah, I appreciateit and and I mean I I wouldn't
say, you guys are necessarily myaudience you know, but probably
not no, no, well, that would bejust three books, I mean, would
be for you.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
So rudy, what's a?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
bigger, bigger audience than that man.
Speaker 5 (05:26):
Rudy, what's the name of your book?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
The book is called Lasting Scars.
Lasting Scars.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
Lasting Scars.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Scars, right?
Okay, it's available on Amazonon Kindle and paperback and you
can search it by my name, myfull name, rodolfo O'Kong, or
Lasting Stars.
It'll pull up.
And it's actually quiteinteresting because people I
(05:59):
mean writing is difficult andyou guys have authored books too
.
I mean you is difficult and youguys have authored books too.
You kind of have to be in azone, you have to be kind of in
the mood.
I would say Sometimes you'renot, but you still write.
But I would also say a lot ofwhat I learned too is the entire
(06:20):
publishing process.
I mean, there's a manuscript.
You have to develop one formatfor the e-book, one format for
the for for the print book.
You got to look at covers, thesizing, the like it's a whole
world.
It's a whole world.
So one challenge really is isthe writing, and you guys could
talk infinitely more about thistoo.
But, um, yeah, the other aspectis the actual publishing yeah,
(06:41):
the first stage of it is writingthe manuscript and then after
that there's a lot.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
But the other aspect is the actual publishing.
Yeah, the first stage of it iswriting the manuscript and then
after that there's a lot of workthat has to go into it.
So the manuscript might be done.
In one case of one of my booksit was one year and then two
years later it was publishedbecause there was still two
years worth of work after themanuscript was complete.
(07:05):
But yeah, it's a long process,both for you and the publisher
as well.
Congratulations, rudy.
That's great and I look forwardto seeing a copy, a signed copy
, from you and my team oh LordIn your hands.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Oh, okay, in my hands , yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
So, the next time you go to texas, you got to bring,
bring a copy at that point nownow father mario is.
I hear he's on a place calledrogue island right now.
Is that correct, rogue island?
He's some island that's gone,rogue.
I'm not sure what that's about,stuart, do you know?
Speaker 5 (07:44):
Actually I'm not sure , no, Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
You said you were rogue because it was your former
stomping ground.
Speaker 5 (07:52):
Oh, yes, it's my stomping ground, but I don't
know what he's doing up there.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Oh, okay.
I was just kidding, by the way,about rogue island.
It was road island.
No, no, rogue was just kidding,by the way, about Rogue Island.
It was Road.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
Island.
No, no, Rogue is probably moreaccurate, but yes.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, well, it's great to be with you guys
tonight.
Now, tonight, rudy, you're theshow director all the way from
Guatemala All the way from.
Guatemala.
You're still in Guatemala,right.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Yeah, I'm still here.
I'm still working on thisproject.
It's a multi-year project.
So, yeah, we actually I'mhoping to be in the States soon.
I'm really waiting.
If anybody of our audience knowanybody in the USCIS office of
(08:46):
the United States, and if youcan help my wife's case along to
get a visa, I'd appreciate it.
But it's a whole thing.
It's a whole thing getting allthis done.
But, yeah, hopefully that'll bebe in soon and we can go visit
(09:07):
you guys, that'll be great.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
So what are we?
What are we discussing tonight?
Rudy, kind of introduce it.
I know you're going to break injust a few minutes, but uh,
yeah yeah, sure.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
So, um, not sure if you guys have a lot of stuff
going on in the news, and I cameacross this article that talks
about something that has beenhappening in the Texas house,
and Texas is an interestingstate, it's a great state.
(09:37):
I love Texas and for a longtime including I went to public
school when I was younger therehas been, as of late, if you
will, a great push to take out alot of the sort of dod language
from anything and everythingthat is in schools.
(10:01):
And I came across this articlethat talks about a particular
bill.
It's a Texas Senate bill rightnow where it is trying to
mandate SB 10, which is tryingto mandate the 10 commandments
in public schools, so it's goingto require public schools to
(10:23):
display the Ten Commandments inevery classroom, and so I found
that.
You know, I found thatinteresting because we've had a
lot of discussions, I think,about this right and sort of the
role in government, especiallyback when Biden and the
(10:46):
transition to Trump, and Iwanted to essentially bring up
two articles the Texas Senatebill and another another sort of
project, and this other articlethat talks about Project 2025.
Now, this isn't somethingrelatively new, but it's
something that's been heavilycriticized, especially by
(11:07):
Democrats, especially byatheists, in probably the last
year, year and a half, assomething that looks to
essentially restructure thefederal government and emphasize
what they call Christiannationalist principles.
(11:28):
Right, so for this show Iwanted to talk about, look
fundamentally and really I'vebeen kind of spending the day
working this out in my head andthis is kind of what I want to
talk to you guys about is I'm acradle Catholic, okay, and when
I sit down and I think aboutthis Rago, I mean you were born
(11:50):
into a Jewish household.
Speaker 5 (11:52):
Yes, I guess you'd call me a cradle Jew.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
A cradle Jew David, you're a cradle Baptist right or
a cradle?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Protestant, if you will.
I mean no, not really.
Speaker 6 (12:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah.
Okay, well, maybe we could talka little bit about each of us,
because I mean, in Protestantismit's understood that a person
makes a decision, and this iskind of the key thing is that a
person makes a decision of faith, makes a profession of faith.
(12:27):
So even though your family maybe a Christian family, a
Christian origin, that doesn'tmean your family in a sense,
that you were brought up thatway.
I mean, it could well be thatthat's the case, but not
everybody is Some people, butthe focus is not so much on were
you born into this.
It's more a matter of have youprofessed your faith.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Right, and as Catholics and Jews, there is
particular ceremonies too thatwe go through, where we publicly
profess our faith too.
But I would say, at least formy experience, I was—I mean,
when I look at what essentiallyindoctrination—so it refers to
the process of teachingindividuals to accept a set of
(13:17):
beliefs.
Right, so it involves impartingspecific ideologies.
Now, that, to me, is exactlywhat my parents did, especially
my mom when I was younger.
Right, when I was younger, mymother wasn't asking me when I
had a fever oh, do you want totake Tylenol?
She just gave me the Tylenol,right, she didn't ask me, do you
(13:40):
?
want to go to church, you know,you just go to church and this
is what you do.
She didn't ask me, you know, doyou want to steal that?
No, you're not going to stealthis right.
You're not going to take fromsomebody else, you're not going
to act unjustly right to acertain belief principle.
(14:00):
So I think there's a line and,of course, indoctrination it's
been manipulated, but I think toa large degree there is a type
of let's call it traditionalindoctrination that happens and
that can happen in a loving waythat I think still respects the
(14:23):
sort of the truth of thatideology and when you can engage
it critically, especially withyour children and between
parents.
And so I want to kind ofextrapolate that a little bit
too to what's going on in theSenate House.
And see, you know,fundamentally and this country
is, look, the Ten Commandmentsare ingrained, ingrained into
(14:48):
our law, into our civil law andcriminal law, right, I mean,
it's just how this entirecountry and for a long time
across the entire really historyof humanity, has worked right.
So to have these TenCommandments.
And one of the things that Ithink I have the most, or people
have the most issue with, ismaybe the First Commandment,
(15:08):
because a lot of the TenCommandments, if you look.
I know we have to go to a break, but, for example, no atheist
is going to tell you is going towant to live in a society where
people are free to steal, orpeople are free to commit murder
, or people are free to covereach other's wives, and and so I
think we take a lot of thingsfor granted.
But but again, to what degreedoes that entail us to?
(15:31):
Let's call it indoctrinated orpush that even at public schools
, right?
Speaker 5 (15:37):
We're supposed to maintain the issue, I think and
we'll have to talk about thiswhen we come back but it's who's
doing the educating, who'sdoing the tradition, and if the
people doing it don't reallyhave the right to do it, that's
when it becomes indoctrination.
You know the act is the sametrying to get people to you know
(16:01):
, believe and follow your way ofthinking.
You know, parents do it tochildren, thank God.
Usually.
You know, everybody tries to doit during the election period.
But the people doing it havethe right and they're not
overextending their power.
But we're going to have to comeback and talk about this.
(16:23):
This is a show of faith on AM1070.
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Johnny Angel.
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Speaker 5 (20:03):
On am 10, 7 the answer.
So I think it's.
I think it's who does theteaching?
Who who does the uh?
In this case, you know who'sresponsible for putting up the
Ten Commandments.
I think that's what determinesif it's indoctrination or not.
By the way, part of me believesthis is nothing but virtue
(20:25):
signaling, because I'm not quitesure that a thing on the wall,
even if it's the TenCommandments, is going to have a
great effect on the studentsand make them more moral is
going to have a great effect onthe students and make them more
moral.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I would probably agree with that right, Just
putting that up there withoutany type of instruction or
discussion, or discussion orcomparison, or you know.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
There are so many problems with it but they're so
moot because it's going to be aplaque on the wall that nobody
really does anything with.
You know what translationthey're going to use, in some
ways, the Ten Commandments Iwould call the most
mistranslated, misrepresented,misunderstood collection of
verses in the Bible.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Wow Okay.
Speaker 5 (21:20):
I mean, you know there.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
No, and Rudy, I think you're right.
You know nobody's going to say,hey, let's everybody advocate
for stealing and murdering andthese kinds of things bearing
false witness.
But the first four of thecommandments are expressly
religious.
I mean, but tickling onpretending, excuse me, depending
(21:43):
upon how they're translated anddepending upon how they're
numbered, the first four or fiveare very, very religious in
their, in their affect, becauseit begins by in the Jewish
reckoning, I am the Lord, yourGod, I am the God of your
ancestors.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
right, yeah, it's a very specific name of a very
specific God to a very specificpeople.
You know people neglect thatthe, even if they call it the
preamble.
What sets up the TenCommandments as the Ten
Commandments is who brought youout of the land of Egypt, out of
the house of bondage?
I think that's an explicit,limited expression to the Jews.
(22:25):
It's not talking about I don'tknow what Europeans or
Christians, or it's the firstline verse 2 of Exodus 20, is.
Who brought you out of the landof Egypt, out of the house of
bondage, is a reference to aspecific people who were in
Egypt in bondage.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah, I think you make a good point.
Go ahead, Rob.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
When you get to honor your father and your mother.
You know, I mean, some peoplemight want to question that,
exactly what that means and howit's supposed to be interpreted.
But by and large I think peopleare going to, you know, think
that parental honoring ofchildren, both in the prime of
(23:14):
life and old age, makes plentyof sense.
But I do think that thebarriers, the first four
commandments, at least, you knowwhen it says remember the
Sabbath day, keep it holy.
And how do you do that?
by doing no work on the Sabbath.
Speaker 5 (23:32):
And define work, and who exactly?
That's why I call it virtuesignaling.
Oh, look at us, we're puttingthe Ten Commandments on the wall
.
We'll make the whole world muchmore holy and religious.
No, we won't.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
You know, this kind of.
One of the points that I wantto talk to as well and I know we
have to throw another quickbreak is look, to a large degree
, I think.
I think it's important that allof us play by the same rules,
right?
So what does that mean?
(24:07):
Is that we can all adhere towhat what I would at least
understand is is a natural law.
Okay, now, the derivation ofthat natural law we can.
You know, that's probably adiscussion for a different show,
but we can all sort of agree,like David was saying, do not
murder, do not commit, do notsteal.
(24:29):
Now there's a big push, and hasalways been a big push, for
these.
Let's call them cultural values,and I would say, especially
within Christians, right, and wecan talk about this more, but
even to some degree right, withall religions.
(24:50):
You look at Islam now and whatit's kind of trying to push
forward and ingrain culturally,and what it's kind of trying to
push forward and ingrainculturally, every sort of
culture wants to in some way be.
How do you say?
I don't want to say dominant,but if you believe that you have
a pill that can cure, that canhelp with your fever, I want
(25:14):
everybody to be able.
You know that can help withyour fever.
I want everybody to be able.
You know, if I genuinelybelieve that, then I want
everybody to at least know thatthis pill exists so that you can
take it right.
And I think, culturally we findthat people trying to push that
let's call it pill, the redpill, in all different aspects
of our culture, which we see,just like you're doing now, and
(25:37):
I do agree with what you'resaying it is a bit of a virtue
signaling by some people, right,maybe it's even just a way to
get media attention right.
It's just kind of.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
Yeah, that's the virtue, signaling part of it.
All right, we do have to go toa break.
This is the Show of Faith.
Speaker 7 (25:54):
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The Answer Good morningstarshine.
Speaker 5 (28:36):
Welcome back to A Show of Faith.
On AM1070 Answer.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
So, rudy, you were saying Okay, so there's been
culturally and we're talkingabout sort of this Texas state
bill right that looks to put theTen Commandments on a wall in
every school, and I agree withyou, rabbi, that it is
(29:03):
showboating.
But historically, this sort ofcultural push right to enact the
Ten Commandments, I mean, forGod's sake, it's what
essentially did away with the,with the slave trade Right.
It wasn't until the Britishstarted bombing the.
(29:26):
What was it?
Lagos and Algiers and literallyhad to bomb the slave trade out
because of this belief, thatthis belief that is derived from
these commandments right.
So there's been, andhistorically, a lot of very
(29:47):
tangible actions that have ledto the betterment and an
improvement of the quality oflife of people.
Speaker 5 (29:58):
And there's no question of it, although I'm not
quite sure those specific ten,how they would directly relate
to slavery.
There are other characteristics, other verses that would.
But the issue becomes who'sdoing the teaching, who's
(30:20):
passing down the morals andethics and traditions, and what
ulterior purpose might they have?
You know, parents are supposedto be doing this, schools Not so
sure.
And just putting it up on thewall, as we said, I'm not sure
how effective that'll be.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
You know, one of the things, rudy, that you shared
had to do with the differencebetween indoctrination and
tradition.
Right, and there was aninteresting definition there
that you had.
I don't have it right in frontof me, but essentially it meant
that teaching people to acceptsomething in an uncritical way,
(31:03):
and so I think that's where youcould escape the charge of
indoctrination by saying, okay,we're going to be putting these
Ten Commandments up in schoolhouses, school rooms across the
country sorry, across the stateof Texas and then we are going
to be discussing them and we'regoing to ask people.
(31:26):
We're going to bring in someexperts that can help us
understand these from aChristian perspective.
Yeah well, I'm saying from aJewish perspective.
You know, bring in a rabbi,bring in a Christian professor,
bring in somebody from acompletely different religious
tradition and talk about theseand don't ask them to accept
(31:50):
them uncritically.
Ask them to think about thesethings and to wonder and to
ponder whether culture is betteroff with them or without them,
and I think you could ask thosekinds of questions and you could
move it from being just asimple matter of indoctrination.
(32:10):
We're going to show both thisand signal virtue.
Signal, as Rabbi has said, orwe're going to let these ideas
percolate and we're going to seehow they have informed us
historically, socially,religiously, etc.
Speaker 5 (32:33):
I think there are ways of moving it from just a
simple indoctrination to a trulygood educational benefit for
people, and David, I would agreewith you, but there's a lot
that has to precede that, Like Idon't know a good translation
If they're going to start outwith thou shalt not kill, that's
(32:56):
a problem.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Well, I realize that that's a problem.
Well, I realize that, and soyou would need to come up with,
and make use of, a translationof those.
Speaker 5 (33:07):
That would be a good, solid translation from the
Hebrew text into English andacceptable to a wide variety of
denominations and faiths, butthe bill but here's the thing
You're not going to getequanimity of translation on
that.
Even for the.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Ten Commandments.
Well, even for the TenCommandments, you might get 80%
of the people who would agree onsomething like that, but there
may be some people that wouldquibble over this or that.
I think you just have to give agood solid English translation
or Spanish translation in somecases for the class.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
You know, I like that where, if it was set up in a
way, for example, where, okay,we're going to put up the Ten
Commandments and if the statewith that maybe gave a packet,
for example, for kids, becausethese are public schools, right,
(34:13):
but you're going to put it upwhere a kindergartner sees this,
somebody in first grade versussomebody in high school, right?
I mean, you're talking verydifferent, very different sort
of aspects of an educationalcapacity too, right.
So to just kind of make a bladesense, now, part of me and this
(34:36):
is kind of where I wanted toplay a little bit of devil's
advocate but sometimes thesedifficult conversations or these
conversations are better had,if you will, if my kid sees this
(35:07):
and he says, mom, you know whatI saw in school today, somebody
put up the Ten Commandments.
So that provides an opening intheir space and hopefully this
is the outcome.
Right is where parents can stepin and do some of this work.
Right, where they're teachingand where they're talking about
this.
So you know, I want to be anoptimist about it and say that
(35:29):
it's opening up space culturallywithin kids themselves too.
Right, because it's importantthe sort of peer-to-peer
relationships that a lot ofthese high schools, middle
schools, elementary school kidshave with each other, and the
stuff that these kids learn,especially from each other,
(35:50):
especially with their cellphones, is absolutely insane.
I mean, look, I grew up in aschool, in a public school
system, that didn't have.
I mean, if you wanted to lookup something, you had to go to
the library reserve.
Some time, go look for a book,go look at the index cards Right
.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
learn how to use the card catalog.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
Right, I mean, it was a whole thing, you know, so
researching and doing this, butnow we've opened up this entire
world, so I mean, hopefully itlooks kind of in this, in this,
in trying to open up this spacefor these cultural conversations
(36:33):
to happen and and I thinkthey're sorely lacking,
especially nowadays, right, Imean, so many people are at each
other's throats over just abouteverything and I just keep them
reminded of this conversation,of this saying it's just when
dialogue ends, peace stops,right, and I think it starts
(36:56):
with that.
It starts with teaching thatyou can't talk about these
things.
You know that it's not taboo,that it's okay to talk about
religion.
I think you're right, brad,100%.
Who's teaching it?
Right, because everybody sortof has an agenda right.
Even as a Catholic, I could sayI would love for everybody to
(37:19):
be Catholic, an authenticCatholic.
Speaker 5 (37:21):
That would be.
You know, that's the worldview,rudy.
To me, it's more than that.
You know, there are, in fact,some very evangelical Protestant
communities, communities.
(37:44):
I can only imagine what theywould do, explicitly regarding
Catholicism, with no idolatry,and how are they going to teach
it?
Are they going to teach itgenerically or very pointedly?
I just think.
I just worry about in whosehands, uh, these classes will be
taught.
You know what?
(38:05):
Like you said, they're gonna.
Everybody has an agenda.
What's their agenda?
And is that an agenda that Iwould want my kids or grandkids
exposed to, if they're going toteach it?
On the other hand, you know, itmight be a very good lesson for
the students.
You know one question what isthe difference, if there is any,
(38:28):
between thou shalt not murderand thou shalt not kill?
And let them argue and discussit.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
That would be a good discussion.
Speaker 5 (38:37):
I think it would be a great discussion, but again,
who's leading the discussion?
What's?
Speaker 4 (38:45):
their agenda.
Speaker 5 (38:45):
What's their background?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Well, here's the problem with discussion having
discussion among people thataren't informed.
It could be just sharing ofignorance.
Yep of ignorance, and that'swhat often happens, even in
college classrooms, where peoplewho aren't prepared and haven't
read anything and haven'tthought anything about a
question say well, what do youthink about this?
(39:07):
What do you think?
It doesn't really matter, itreally.
I mean, first of all, let's notjust share our ignorance about
something.
Let's learn something first,and then, after we have done so,
let's then begin to discuss it.
So there is a point for havingsomeone to teach and not just a
(39:32):
point of discussion.
Speaker 5 (39:33):
No, no Discussions have to be led have to be led.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
It has to be led.
But even if you lead adiscussion among people who
don't know anything, they'rejust sharing ignorance.
They're sharing what they don'tknow.
They need to first of all golearn something and then they
have.
You're going to have a muchbetter discussion at the end of
(40:00):
the day by people who'veactually invested some time and
learned something about each ofthese ideas.
Speaker 5 (40:07):
All right, this is a show of faith.
On AM 1070, the Answer We'll beright back.
Speaker 7 (40:12):
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Speaker 2 (42:26):
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(42:50):
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Speaker 5 (42:55):
Sandman, bring me a dream.
Welcome back to A Show of Faithon AM 107, the Answer.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Okay.
So I think that and I knowwe're coming close to the end
here but the United StatesChristians have a strong
tradition, okay, of going outand doing evangelization, and
(43:23):
what we find today with thesetwo things that I've talked
about SB10 and the Project 2025,these are initiatives of sort
of this, what I would call thesame tradition, if you will.
Now, to me, the question is,when does it actually, when does
(43:51):
this tradition stop serving thecommunity and when does it
actually start becoming harmful?
Is this something that couldpotentially become more harmful
than what they think is actuallyserving, right?
I mean, it's kind of likegiving a young kid a loaded gun
(44:11):
without teaching him how to useit, right?
It's just, it's insane, it'sinsane.
So this I would call it in somesort an imposition, right, but I
(44:32):
think it sort of falls into thekind of the same tradition that
I've seen that the UnitedStates engages and I'm not just
talking from a sort of religiousperspective.
A sort of religious perspective, I'm talking culturally and
everything from going out, goingto other countries,
participating in multiple warsand government changes.
I mean this constant sort ofgoing out and trying to mold
(44:52):
ideology and trying to moldthings.
I mean, is this just kind ofmore fundamentally human or is
it particular of what kind ofmore fundamentally human or is
it particular of what kind ofAmerica is and has been doing?
And I mean, I kind of wanted tokind of end a little bit about
on that is how do you guys seethis?
I mean, is this and I know it'sjust kind of one instance right,
(45:15):
but I don't think it's going tostop anytime soon, whether it's
left or right, because on theleft we have certainly extreme
people want to remove everything, everything you know about
everything, and on the right wewant to, and of course I think
they kind of get unfairly andthis is my opinion, of course,
(45:36):
but a lot of this narrative getskind of pushed into this sort
of right-wing nationalistChristians and then they depict
these kind of weird Christiansthat are yelling at you with a
microphone and it's just like Idon't know.
It's just kind of so fringe youknow, they show you the fringes
.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
I mean part of the challenge.
You brought up, project 2025,which is a 900-page document
that has been proffered by theHeritage Foundation, and it's
kind of the directions.
(46:19):
As I understand it isdirections for the next
administration.
Now, that was back in 2024 whenit came out, so it was in
anticipation of perhaps aRepublican win in the 2024
elections, which happened, ofcourse.
So almost everything you readabout it, though, unless you
read the document itself andthis is the challenge unless you
(46:42):
read the document itself, youreally don't know what it says,
because what you're readingabout it often is opinion that
is, either strongly for it orstrongly against it what to make
of the Project 2025, becausealmost everything you're going
(47:04):
to read about it, on theInternet at least, is going to
be an advocacy against it.
Speaker 5 (47:07):
Right, it's going to be about it instead of.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
of it Right.
So it's very difficult to sayso.
I think we ought to try toleave that for another daily
conversation, to try to read upabout it, but frankly, I don't
have time to read 900 pages, no,and try to digest it on a
normal basis.
But what I am suggesting isthat we are just in a very
(47:31):
strange cultural moment, that is, maybe it is typical of what
will be, but it's notnecessarily typical of what has
been in the past 20, 30, 40years.
David.
Speaker 5 (47:54):
I was just going to say that I worry about what it's
going to be.
I worry about our culture andthe direction it seems to be
heading.
I think that there's moredesire on both sides of the
aisle for what we would normallybe calling censorship, what
(48:16):
goes by the other name ofcancellation being canceled.
I think that people are moreviolent now.
You know when.
The head of the FBI, you know86-47, I just I think we are
heading down a road and puttingup a nice little sign, no matter
(48:38):
how vitally important theverses are, that they put up is
not going to do anything, it'snot going to change anything.
It's, you know, virtuesignaling.
And I'm very worried about theI don't know next 25, 35 years.
I tell my children please justremember how wonderful the
(49:01):
United States has been.
Speaker 3 (49:05):
I think I think, rob, I think you're exactly right
and I think that's kind of mypoint.
And nobody has really I mean0.01 of the population has read
the entire thing.
I've skimmed through it, but Ithink my point is that there's
always going to be this Project2025 or Project 2030 or Project.
(49:26):
There's always going to be apush from all sides to
essentially I don't want to sayto some degree indoctrinate
right or to push theirideological points.
I mean, this is what's going tocontinually happen and, to some
degree, has largely happenedacross all history.
Speaker 5 (49:49):
But see, rudy, here's the difference when I do it,
it's merely teaching, whensomebody else does it, it's
indoctrination does it.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
It's indoctrination Stop indoctrinating us.
Speaker 5 (50:03):
Right.
See, I don't indoctrinate, Imerely teach.
Other people indoctrinate, andseriously.
I think that that's when bothsides of the aisle, that's how
they both view the other side.
They're the ones indoctrinating, we're the ones teaching.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
So let me ask you, let me ask you guys point blank
Do you think that this issomething that is going to lead
to something good?
Speaker 1 (50:31):
You're talking about the Texas initiative.
Speaker 3 (50:35):
The Texas initiative.
Yeah, sb 10.
Yeah, the Texas Initiative.
Yeah, just SB 10,.
Yeah, which is really just toput a sign of the Ten
Commandments in public schools.
That's what it says, right?
It doesn't talk about teachingthem.
It's just like you would put anAmerican flag, right you?
Speaker 5 (51:01):
would put this somewhere on public school
grounds.
I think that it's okay.
I just think it's rather Idon't know.
I've said that repeatedlytonight.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
I don't think it's in and of itself.
It's sufficient if they were toput together some sort of a
program that allowed there to bediscussion, intelligent
discussion, informed by peoplewho are experts in various, and
(51:37):
it wouldn't have to benecessarily religious people,
because, as you mentioned, rudy,much of our American-British
law, british, roman and evenWestern law is based upon a
number of these ideas and ideals, and not just the Ten
(51:59):
Commandments but what you weretalking about earlier the image
of God, the idea of the ImagoDei that every individual
carries within him or her a veryimage of God.
So those kinds of things withoutsome teaching, without some
context, without someexplanation, could be just a
faint way to gather dust.
(52:19):
So I think it will depend to alarge degree on each school and
on each principal, each schooldistrict, on what they decide to
do with that.
And it would not necessarilyhave to be a religious thing,
although religious experts mightbe called to testify, as it
(52:42):
were, and explaining what thesethings meant and the
significance of them along theway, so that people and you
could ask them say look, we'renot suggesting that you live by
this, but we think it's worthexploring and you can accept
these and you can accept these,you can accept these ideas.
(53:02):
We hope that you will, becausewe think it'll lead to a greater
good and a greater society.
But we hope that you will do so.
So I don't know.
Speaker 5 (53:14):
Again, I agree with you, David.
I just want to know, as amatter of fact, there's a part
of me not all of me, but there'sa part of me who would almost
prefer it was taught by thesecular community, Because when
you have somebody who'sreligious, they're going to let
their agendas come out.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
I'm not suggesting you have a single religion
represented to it.
I'm suggesting that you be thedesignated rabbi to go around to
all these places.
Speaker 5 (53:42):
I'm ready.
I'd be happy to.
I don't think they'd be happyto, but I'd be happy to.
Speaker 1 (53:48):
And then Rudy can be the designated Catholic voice
and go around to all of theseand I'm going to retire and I'll
let you guys take this stuff.
I'm just kidding, I'm justkidding retire and not let you
guys take this stuff.
So I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding, of course,but I don't think it should be a
single particular religioustradition.
I think it should be Catholic,I think it should be Protestant,
(54:10):
I think it should be Jewish, Ithink it could be even a Muslim
or another religious communitythat would engage these ideas.
Speaker 5 (54:20):
About 15 seconds.
Speaker 1 (54:22):
Yeah, okay, stuart, take it away.
Speaker 5 (54:24):
All right, this is a show of faith.
On AM 1070, the Answer Miranda,thank you for being our board
op and Valerie, thank you also.
This is a show of faith.
Hey, everybody, keep us in yourprayers, because you are
definitely going to be in ourprayers.
There's something happening here.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
What it is ain't exactly clear.
There's a man with a gun overthere.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Telling me what I got to beware.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I think it's time we stop.
Children what's that?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
sound Everybody.
Look what's going down.
There's bad lines being drawn.
Nobody's right if everybody'swrong.
(00:48):
Young people speak in theirminds Getting so much resistance
from behind Every time we stop.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
hey, what's that sound?
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Everybody look what's going down?
Speaker 5 (01:06):
Welcome to A Show of Faith where a professor, priest,
millennial and rabbi discusstheology, philosophy, morality,
ethics and anything else ofinterest in religion.
If you have any response to ourtopics or any comments
regarding what we say, hey, we'dlove to hear from you.
Email us at ashowoffaith1070 atgmailcom.
Ashowoffaith1070 at gmailcom.
(01:27):
You can hear our shows againand again by listening.
Pretty much everywhere podcastsare heard.
Professor David Capes is ourBaptist minister, director of
academic programming for theLanier Theological Library.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Stuart, good to have you back, man.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
Great to be back.
Our priest is Father MarioArroyo, retired pastor of St
Cyril of Alexandria, the 10,000block of Westheimer, but he
can't be with us tonight.
Rudy Kohn is our millennial.
He's a systems engineer,master's degree in theology from
the University of St Thomas anda published author.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Arthur yes.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
David, you've got what 20, 30 books out.
You should know I are apublished Arthur.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Well, congratulations to Rudolph Kong.
I saw his book earlier today.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
I haven't had a chance to take a look at it, but
it looked really quitedelightful.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
It's a romance.
It looked really quitedelightful.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
It's a romance it's, I guess.
So it's kind of a bit ofromance, sort of family fiction,
but based on it's not like youknow, aliens and this kind of
stuff.
It's a fiction based on reallife, if you will.
Speaker 5 (02:44):
Historical novel, would you call it.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
No, not so much.
Speaker 5 (02:50):
No.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
No.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Is it based on your family, Rudy?
I mean, what's this?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
No, it's not.
Well, it's interesting becauseI read a book a while ago and
the book is prettystraightforward.
It's called how to Write andone of the things it talks about
is that some of the bestwriting comes about from even
fictional writing comes aboutfrom personal stories or
(03:20):
personal experiences, if youwill, that you can kind of mold
and shape accordingly.
So, for example, if I wanted todescribe to you a unicorn, I
could tell you what a horselooks like by describing a horse
, because I've seen a horse, andthen let your imagination
imagine the horn, and thenthat's where you kind of let the
(03:41):
fiction kind of come in.
And that's where you kind oflet the fiction kind of come in.
But I did a lot of work withyouth and I know Father Mario
would be my backup here toconfirming this.
But at St Cyril we had aprogram for essentially youth
ministry and young adultministry and I was very blessed
(04:04):
and I got to share with a lot ofteenagers and one of the things
that was actually one of themost difficult things to hear
was their testimonies where theywould share oh, rabbi and David
, just all kinds of, just greatthings but also terrible things,
(04:27):
but also terribly great things.
I don't know if I'm makingsense, but you just heard
everything.
So some of it is personalexperience, some of it is things
I mean.
At the end of the day, it's allkind of personal experience,
things that I've listened to,I've heard, I've participated in
, but it's not necessarilyanything particular that
(04:50):
happened to me.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
But, rudy truly, the best writing is what a person is
most familiar with, somethingyou know well and therefore your
book is probably great.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Well, thank you, ravel.
Thank you, yeah, I appreciateit and and I mean I I wouldn't
say, you guys are necessarily myaudience you know, but probably
not no, no, well, that would bejust three books, I mean, would
be for you.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
So rudy, what's a?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
bigger, bigger audience than that man.
Speaker 5 (05:26):
Rudy, what's the name of your book?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
The book is called Lasting Scars.
Lasting Scars.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
Lasting Scars.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Scars, right?
Okay, it's available on Amazonon Kindle and paperback and you
can search it by my name, myfull name, rodolfo O'Kong, or
Lasting Stars.
It'll pull up.
And it's actually quiteinteresting because people I
(05:59):
mean writing is difficult andyou guys have authored books too
.
I mean you is difficult and youguys have authored books too.
You kind of have to be in azone, you have to be kind of in
the mood.
I would say Sometimes you'renot, but you still write.
But I would also say a lot ofwhat I learned too is the entire
(06:20):
publishing process.
I mean, there's a manuscript.
You have to develop one formatfor the e-book, one format for
the for for the print book.
You got to look at covers, thesizing, the like it's a whole
world.
It's a whole world.
So one challenge really is isthe writing, and you guys could
talk infinitely more about thistoo.
But, um, yeah, the other aspectis the actual publishing yeah,
(06:41):
the first stage of it is writingthe manuscript and then after
that there's a lot.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
But the other aspect is the actual publishing.
Yeah, the first stage of it iswriting the manuscript and then
after that there's a lot of workthat has to go into it.
So the manuscript might be done.
In one case of one of my booksit was one year and then two
years later it was publishedbecause there was still two
years worth of work after themanuscript was complete.
(07:05):
But yeah, it's a long process,both for you and the publisher
as well.
Congratulations, rudy.
That's great and I look forwardto seeing a copy, a signed copy
, from you and my team oh LordIn your hands.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Oh, okay, in my hands , yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
So, the next time you go to texas, you got to bring,
bring a copy at that point nownow father mario is.
I hear he's on a place calledrogue island right now.
Is that correct, rogue island?
He's some island that's gone,rogue.
I'm not sure what that's about,stuart, do you know?
Speaker 5 (07:44):
Actually I'm not sure , no, Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
You said you were rogue because it was your former
stomping ground.
Speaker 5 (07:52):
Oh, yes, it's my stomping ground, but I don't
know what he's doing up there.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Oh, okay.
I was just kidding, by the way,about rogue island.
It was road island.
No, no, rogue was just kidding,by the way, about Rogue Island.
It was Road.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
Island.
No, no, Rogue is probably moreaccurate, but yes.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, well, it's great to be with you guys
tonight.
Now, tonight, rudy, you're theshow director all the way from
Guatemala All the way from.
Guatemala.
You're still in Guatemala,right.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Yeah, I'm still here.
I'm still working on thisproject.
It's a multi-year project.
So, yeah, we actually I'mhoping to be in the States soon.
I'm really waiting.
If anybody of our audience knowanybody in the USCIS office of
(08:46):
the United States, and if youcan help my wife's case along to
get a visa, I'd appreciate it.
But it's a whole thing.
It's a whole thing getting allthis done.
But, yeah, hopefully that'll bebe in soon and we can go visit
(09:07):
you guys, that'll be great.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
So what are we?
What are we discussing tonight?
Rudy, kind of introduce it.
I know you're going to break injust a few minutes, but uh,
yeah yeah, sure.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
So, um, not sure if you guys have a lot of stuff
going on in the news, and I cameacross this article that talks
about something that has beenhappening in the Texas house,
and Texas is an interestingstate, it's a great state.
(09:37):
I love Texas and for a longtime including I went to public
school when I was younger therehas been, as of late, if you
will, a great push to take out alot of the sort of dod language
from anything and everythingthat is in schools.
(10:01):
And I came across this articlethat talks about a particular
bill.
It's a Texas Senate bill rightnow where it is trying to
mandate SB 10, which is tryingto mandate the 10 commandments
in public schools, so it's goingto require public schools to
(10:23):
display the Ten Commandments inevery classroom, and so I found
that.
You know, I found thatinteresting because we've had a
lot of discussions, I think,about this right and sort of the
role in government, especiallyback when Biden and the
(10:46):
transition to Trump, and Iwanted to essentially bring up
two articles the Texas Senatebill and another another sort of
project, and this other articlethat talks about Project 2025.
Now, this isn't somethingrelatively new, but it's
something that's been heavilycriticized, especially by
(11:07):
Democrats, especially byatheists, in probably the last
year, year and a half, assomething that looks to
essentially restructure thefederal government and emphasize
what they call Christiannationalist principles.
(11:28):
Right, so for this show Iwanted to talk about, look
fundamentally and really I'vebeen kind of spending the day
working this out in my head andthis is kind of what I want to
talk to you guys about is I'm acradle Catholic, okay, and when
I sit down and I think aboutthis Rago, I mean you were born
(11:50):
into a Jewish household.
Speaker 5 (11:52):
Yes, I guess you'd call me a cradle Jew.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
A cradle Jew David, you're a cradle Baptist right or
a cradle?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Protestant, if you will.
I mean no, not really.
Speaker 6 (12:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah.
Okay, well, maybe we could talka little bit about each of us,
because I mean, in Protestantismit's understood that a person
makes a decision, and this iskind of the key thing is that a
person makes a decision of faith, makes a profession of faith.
(12:27):
So even though your family maybe a Christian family, a
Christian origin, that doesn'tmean your family in a sense,
that you were brought up thatway.
I mean, it could well be thatthat's the case, but not
everybody is Some people, butthe focus is not so much on were
you born into this.
It's more a matter of have youprofessed your faith.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Right, and as Catholics and Jews, there is
particular ceremonies too thatwe go through, where we publicly
profess our faith too.
But I would say, at least formy experience, I was—I mean,
when I look at what essentiallyindoctrination—so it refers to
the process of teachingindividuals to accept a set of
(13:17):
beliefs.
Right, so it involves impartingspecific ideologies.
Now, that, to me, is exactlywhat my parents did, especially
my mom when I was younger.
Right, when I was younger, mymother wasn't asking me when I
had a fever oh, do you want totake Tylenol?
She just gave me the Tylenol,right, she didn't ask me, do you
(13:40):
?
want to go to church, you know,you just go to church and this
is what you do.
She didn't ask me, you know, doyou want to steal that?
No, you're not going to stealthis right.
You're not going to take fromsomebody else, you're not going
to act unjustly right to acertain belief principle.
(14:00):
So I think there's a line and,of course, indoctrination it's
been manipulated, but I think toa large degree there is a type
of let's call it traditionalindoctrination that happens and
that can happen in a loving waythat I think still respects the
(14:23):
sort of the truth of thatideology and when you can engage
it critically, especially withyour children and between
parents.
And so I want to kind ofextrapolate that a little bit
too to what's going on in theSenate House.
And see, you know,fundamentally and this country
is, look, the Ten Commandmentsare ingrained, ingrained into
(14:48):
our law, into our civil law andcriminal law, right, I mean,
it's just how this entirecountry and for a long time
across the entire really historyof humanity, has worked right.
So to have these TenCommandments.
And one of the things that Ithink I have the most, or people
have the most issue with, ismaybe the First Commandment,
(15:08):
because a lot of the TenCommandments, if you look.
I know we have to go to a break, but, for example, no atheist
is going to tell you is going towant to live in a society where
people are free to steal, orpeople are free to commit murder
, or people are free to covereach other's wives, and and so I
think we take a lot of thingsfor granted.
But but again, to what degreedoes that entail us to?
(15:31):
Let's call it indoctrinated orpush that even at public schools
, right?
Speaker 5 (15:37):
We're supposed to maintain the issue, I think and
we'll have to talk about thiswhen we come back but it's who's
doing the educating, who'sdoing the tradition, and if the
people doing it don't reallyhave the right to do it, that's
when it becomes indoctrination.
You know the act is the sametrying to get people to you know
(16:01):
, believe and follow your way ofthinking.
You know, parents do it tochildren, thank God.
Usually.
You know, everybody tries to doit during the election period.
But the people doing it havethe right and they're not
overextending their power.
But we're going to have to comeback and talk about this.
(16:23):
This is a show of faith on AM1070.
The answer will be right back.
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Speaker 5 (20:03):
On am 10, 7 the answer.
So I think it's.
I think it's who does theteaching?
Who who does the uh?
In this case, you know who'sresponsible for putting up the
Ten Commandments.
I think that's what determinesif it's indoctrination or not.
By the way, part of me believesthis is nothing but virtue
(20:25):
signaling, because I'm not quitesure that a thing on the wall,
even if it's the TenCommandments, is going to have a
great effect on the studentsand make them more moral is
going to have a great effect onthe students and make them more
moral.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I would probably agree with that right, Just
putting that up there withoutany type of instruction or
discussion, or discussion orcomparison, or you know.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
There are so many problems with it but they're so
moot because it's going to be aplaque on the wall that nobody
really does anything with.
You know what translationthey're going to use, in some
ways, the Ten Commandments Iwould call the most
mistranslated, misrepresented,misunderstood collection of
verses in the Bible.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Wow Okay.
Speaker 5 (21:20):
I mean, you know there.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
No, and Rudy, I think you're right.
You know nobody's going to say,hey, let's everybody advocate
for stealing and murdering andthese kinds of things bearing
false witness.
But the first four of thecommandments are expressly
religious.
I mean, but tickling onpretending, excuse me, depending
(21:43):
upon how they're translated anddepending upon how they're
numbered, the first four or fiveare very, very religious in
their, in their affect, becauseit begins by in the Jewish
reckoning, I am the Lord, yourGod, I am the God of your
ancestors.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
right, yeah, it's a very specific name of a very
specific God to a very specificpeople.
You know people neglect thatthe, even if they call it the
preamble.
What sets up the TenCommandments as the Ten
Commandments is who brought youout of the land of Egypt, out of
the house of bondage?
I think that's an explicit,limited expression to the Jews.
(22:25):
It's not talking about I don'tknow what Europeans or
Christians, or it's the firstline verse 2 of Exodus 20, is.
Who brought you out of the landof Egypt, out of the house of
bondage, is a reference to aspecific people who were in
Egypt in bondage.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah, I think you make a good point.
Go ahead, Rob.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
When you get to honor your father and your mother.
You know, I mean, some peoplemight want to question that,
exactly what that means and howit's supposed to be interpreted.
But by and large I think peopleare going to, you know, think
that parental honoring ofchildren, both in the prime of
(23:14):
life and old age, makes plentyof sense.
But I do think that thebarriers, the first four
commandments, at least, you knowwhen it says remember the
Sabbath day, keep it holy.
And how do you do that?
by doing no work on the Sabbath.
Speaker 5 (23:32):
And define work, and who exactly?
That's why I call it virtuesignaling.
Oh, look at us, we're puttingthe Ten Commandments on the wall
.
We'll make the whole world muchmore holy and religious.
No, we won't.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
You know, this kind of.
One of the points that I wantto talk to as well and I know we
have to throw another quickbreak is look, to a large degree
, I think.
I think it's important that allof us play by the same rules,
right?
So what does that mean?
(24:07):
Is that we can all adhere towhat what I would at least
understand is is a natural law.
Okay, now, the derivation ofthat natural law we can.
You know, that's probably adiscussion for a different show,
but we can all sort of agree,like David was saying, do not
murder, do not commit, do notsteal.
(24:29):
Now there's a big push, and hasalways been a big push, for
these.
Let's call them cultural values,and I would say, especially
within Christians, right, and wecan talk about this more, but
even to some degree right, withall religions.
(24:50):
You look at Islam now and whatit's kind of trying to push
forward and ingrain culturally,and what it's kind of trying to
push forward and ingrainculturally, every sort of
culture wants to in some way be.
How do you say?
I don't want to say dominant,but if you believe that you have
a pill that can cure, that canhelp with your fever, I want
(25:14):
everybody to be able.
You know that can help withyour fever.
I want everybody to be able.
You know, if I genuinelybelieve that, then I want
everybody to at least know thatthis pill exists so that you can
take it right.
And I think, culturally we findthat people trying to push that
let's call it pill, the redpill, in all different aspects
of our culture, which we see,just like you're doing now, and
(25:37):
I do agree with what you'resaying it is a bit of a virtue
signaling by some people, right,maybe it's even just a way to
get media attention right.
It's just kind of.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
Yeah, that's the virtue, signaling part of it.
All right, we do have to go toa break.
This is the Show of Faith.
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The Answer Good morningstarshine.
Speaker 5 (28:36):
Welcome back to A Show of Faith.
On AM1070 Answer.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
So, rudy, you were saying Okay, so there's been
culturally and we're talkingabout sort of this Texas state
bill right that looks to put theTen Commandments on a wall in
every school, and I agree withyou, rabbi, that it is
(29:03):
showboating.
But historically, this sort ofcultural push right to enact the
Ten Commandments, I mean, forGod's sake, it's what
essentially did away with the,with the slave trade Right.
It wasn't until the Britishstarted bombing the.
(29:26):
What was it?
Lagos and Algiers and literallyhad to bomb the slave trade out
because of this belief, thatthis belief that is derived from
these commandments right.
So there's been, andhistorically, a lot of very
(29:47):
tangible actions that have ledto the betterment and an
improvement of the quality oflife of people.
Speaker 5 (29:58):
And there's no question of it, although I'm not
quite sure those specific ten,how they would directly relate
to slavery.
There are other characteristics, other verses that would.
But the issue becomes who'sdoing the teaching, who's
(30:20):
passing down the morals andethics and traditions, and what
ulterior purpose might they have?
You know, parents are supposedto be doing this, schools Not so
sure.
And just putting it up on thewall, as we said, I'm not sure
how effective that'll be.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
You know, one of the things, rudy, that you shared
had to do with the differencebetween indoctrination and
tradition.
Right, and there was aninteresting definition there
that you had.
I don't have it right in frontof me, but essentially it meant
that teaching people to acceptsomething in an uncritical way,
(31:03):
and so I think that's where youcould escape the charge of
indoctrination by saying, okay,we're going to be putting these
Ten Commandments up in schoolhouses, school rooms across the
country sorry, across the stateof Texas and then we are going
to be discussing them and we'regoing to ask people.
(31:26):
We're going to bring in someexperts that can help us
understand these from aChristian perspective.
Yeah well, I'm saying from aJewish perspective.
You know, bring in a rabbi,bring in a Christian professor,
bring in somebody from acompletely different religious
tradition and talk about theseand don't ask them to accept
(31:50):
them uncritically.
Ask them to think about thesethings and to wonder and to
ponder whether culture is betteroff with them or without them,
and I think you could ask thosekinds of questions and you could
move it from being just asimple matter of indoctrination.
(32:10):
We're going to show both thisand signal virtue.
Signal, as Rabbi has said, orwe're going to let these ideas
percolate and we're going to seehow they have informed us
historically, socially,religiously, etc.
Speaker 5 (32:33):
I think there are ways of moving it from just a
simple indoctrination to a trulygood educational benefit for
people, and David, I would agreewith you, but there's a lot
that has to precede that, Like Idon't know a good translation
If they're going to start outwith thou shalt not kill, that's
(32:56):
a problem.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Well, I realize that that's a problem.
Well, I realize that, and soyou would need to come up with,
and make use of, a translationof those.
Speaker 5 (33:07):
That would be a good, solid translation from the
Hebrew text into English andacceptable to a wide variety of
denominations and faiths, butthe bill but here's the thing
You're not going to getequanimity of translation on
that.
Even for the.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Ten Commandments.
Well, even for the TenCommandments, you might get 80%
of the people who would agree onsomething like that, but there
may be some people that wouldquibble over this or that.
I think you just have to give agood solid English translation
or Spanish translation in somecases for the class.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
You know, I like that where, if it was set up in a
way, for example, where, okay,we're going to put up the Ten
Commandments and if the statewith that maybe gave a packet,
for example, for kids, becausethese are public schools, right,
(34:13):
but you're going to put it upwhere a kindergartner sees this,
somebody in first grade versussomebody in high school, right?
I mean, you're talking verydifferent, very different sort
of aspects of an educationalcapacity too, right.
So to just kind of make a bladesense, now, part of me and this
(34:36):
is kind of where I wanted toplay a little bit of devil's
advocate but sometimes thesedifficult conversations or these
conversations are better had,if you will, if my kid sees this
(35:07):
and he says, mom, you know whatI saw in school today, somebody
put up the Ten Commandments.
So that provides an opening intheir space and hopefully this
is the outcome.
Right is where parents can stepin and do some of this work.
Right, where they're teachingand where they're talking about
this.
So you know, I want to be anoptimist about it and say that
(35:29):
it's opening up space culturallywithin kids themselves too.
Right, because it's importantthe sort of peer-to-peer
relationships that a lot ofthese high schools, middle
schools, elementary school kidshave with each other, and the
stuff that these kids learn,especially from each other,
(35:50):
especially with their cellphones, is absolutely insane.
I mean, look, I grew up in aschool, in a public school
system, that didn't have.
I mean, if you wanted to lookup something, you had to go to
the library reserve.
Some time, go look for a book,go look at the index cards Right
.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
learn how to use the card catalog.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
Right, I mean, it was a whole thing, you know, so
researching and doing this, butnow we've opened up this entire
world, so I mean, hopefully itlooks kind of in this, in this,
in trying to open up this spacefor these cultural conversations
(36:33):
to happen and and I thinkthey're sorely lacking,
especially nowadays, right, Imean, so many people are at each
other's throats over just abouteverything and I just keep them
reminded of this conversation,of this saying it's just when
dialogue ends, peace stops,right, and I think it starts
(36:56):
with that.
It starts with teaching thatyou can't talk about these
things.
You know that it's not taboo,that it's okay to talk about
religion.
I think you're right, brad,100%.
Who's teaching it?
Right, because everybody sortof has an agenda right.
Even as a Catholic, I could sayI would love for everybody to
(37:19):
be Catholic, an authenticCatholic.
Speaker 5 (37:21):
That would be.
You know, that's the worldview,rudy.
To me, it's more than that.
You know, there are, in fact,some very evangelical Protestant
communities, communities.
(37:44):
I can only imagine what theywould do, explicitly regarding
Catholicism, with no idolatry,and how are they going to teach
it?
Are they going to teach itgenerically or very pointedly?
I just think.
I just worry about in whosehands, uh, these classes will be
taught.
You know what?
(38:05):
Like you said, they're gonna.
Everybody has an agenda.
What's their agenda?
And is that an agenda that Iwould want my kids or grandkids
exposed to, if they're going toteach it?
On the other hand, you know, itmight be a very good lesson for
the students.
You know one question what isthe difference, if there is any,
(38:28):
between thou shalt not murderand thou shalt not kill?
And let them argue and discussit.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
That would be a good discussion.
Speaker 5 (38:37):
I think it would be a great discussion, but again,
who's leading the discussion?
What's?
Speaker 4 (38:45):
their agenda.
Speaker 5 (38:45):
What's their background?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Well, here's the problem with discussion having
discussion among people thataren't informed.
It could be just sharing ofignorance.
Yep of ignorance, and that'swhat often happens, even in
college classrooms, where peoplewho aren't prepared and haven't
read anything and haven'tthought anything about a
question say well, what do youthink about this?
(39:07):
What do you think?
It doesn't really matter, itreally.
I mean, first of all, let's notjust share our ignorance about
something.
Let's learn something first,and then, after we have done so,
let's then begin to discuss it.
So there is a point for havingsomeone to teach and not just a
(39:32):
point of discussion.
Speaker 5 (39:33):
No, no Discussions have to be led have to be led.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
It has to be led.
But even if you lead adiscussion among people who
don't know anything, they'rejust sharing ignorance.
They're sharing what they don'tknow.
They need to first of all golearn something and then they
have.
You're going to have a muchbetter discussion at the end of
(40:00):
the day by people who'veactually invested some time and
learned something about each ofthese ideas.
Speaker 5 (40:07):
All right, this is a show of faith.
On AM 1070, the Answer We'll beright back.
Speaker 7 (40:12):
AM 1070, the Answer.
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This is am 1070 the answer, mrSandman.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Bring me a dream.
Make him the cutest that I'veever seen, give him two lips
like roses and clover, then tellhim that his lonesome nights
are over.
Sandman, I'm so alone, don'thave nobody to call my own.
(42:50):
Please turn on your magic beam,mr.
Speaker 5 (42:55):
Sandman, bring me a dream.
Welcome back to A Show of Faithon AM 107, the Answer.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Okay.
So I think that and I knowwe're coming close to the end
here but the United StatesChristians have a strong
tradition, okay, of going outand doing evangelization, and
(43:23):
what we find today with thesetwo things that I've talked
about SB10 and the Project 2025,these are initiatives of sort
of this, what I would call thesame tradition, if you will.
Now, to me, the question is,when does it actually, when does
(43:51):
this tradition stop serving thecommunity and when does it
actually start becoming harmful?
Is this something that couldpotentially become more harmful
than what they think is actuallyserving, right?
I mean, it's kind of likegiving a young kid a loaded gun
(44:11):
without teaching him how to useit, right?
It's just, it's insane, it'sinsane.
So this I would call it in somesort an imposition, right, but I
(44:32):
think it sort of falls into thekind of the same tradition that
I've seen that the UnitedStates engages and I'm not just
talking from a sort of religiousperspective.
A sort of religious perspective, I'm talking culturally and
everything from going out, goingto other countries,
participating in multiple warsand government changes.
I mean this constant sort ofgoing out and trying to mold
(44:52):
ideology and trying to moldthings.
I mean, is this just kind ofmore fundamentally human or is
it particular of what kind ofmore fundamentally human or is
it particular of what kind ofAmerica is and has been doing?
And I mean, I kind of wanted tokind of end a little bit about
on that is how do you guys seethis?
I mean, is this and I know it'sjust kind of one instance right,
(45:15):
but I don't think it's going tostop anytime soon, whether it's
left or right, because on theleft we have certainly extreme
people want to remove everything, everything you know about
everything, and on the right wewant to, and of course I think
they kind of get unfairly andthis is my opinion, of course,
(45:36):
but a lot of this narrative getskind of pushed into this sort
of right-wing nationalistChristians and then they depict
these kind of weird Christiansthat are yelling at you with a
microphone and it's just like Idon't know.
It's just kind of so fringe youknow, they show you the fringes
.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
I mean part of the challenge.
You brought up, project 2025,which is a 900-page document
that has been proffered by theHeritage Foundation, and it's
kind of the directions.
(46:19):
As I understand it isdirections for the next
administration.
Now, that was back in 2024 whenit came out, so it was in
anticipation of perhaps aRepublican win in the 2024
elections, which happened, ofcourse.
So almost everything you readabout it, though, unless you
read the document itself andthis is the challenge unless you
(46:42):
read the document itself, youreally don't know what it says,
because what you're readingabout it often is opinion that
is, either strongly for it orstrongly against it what to make
of the Project 2025, becausealmost everything you're going
(47:04):
to read about it, on theInternet at least, is going to
be an advocacy against it.
Speaker 5 (47:07):
Right, it's going to be about it instead of.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
of it Right.
So it's very difficult to sayso.
I think we ought to try toleave that for another daily
conversation, to try to read upabout it, but frankly, I don't
have time to read 900 pages, no,and try to digest it on a
normal basis.
But what I am suggesting isthat we are just in a very
(47:31):
strange cultural moment, that is, maybe it is typical of what
will be, but it's notnecessarily typical of what has
been in the past 20, 30, 40years.
David.
Speaker 5 (47:54):
I was just going to say that I worry about what it's
going to be.
I worry about our culture andthe direction it seems to be
heading.
I think that there's moredesire on both sides of the
aisle for what we would normallybe calling censorship, what
(48:16):
goes by the other name ofcancellation being canceled.
I think that people are moreviolent now.
You know when.
The head of the FBI, you know86-47, I just I think we are
heading down a road and puttingup a nice little sign, no matter
(48:38):
how vitally important theverses are, that they put up is
not going to do anything, it'snot going to change anything.
It's, you know, virtuesignaling.
And I'm very worried about theI don't know next 25, 35 years.
I tell my children please justremember how wonderful the
(49:01):
United States has been.
Speaker 3 (49:05):
I think I think, rob, I think you're exactly right
and I think that's kind of mypoint.
And nobody has really I mean0.01 of the population has read
the entire thing.
I've skimmed through it, but Ithink my point is that there's
always going to be this Project2025 or Project 2030 or Project.
(49:26):
There's always going to be apush from all sides to
essentially I don't want to sayto some degree indoctrinate
right or to push theirideological points.
I mean, this is what's going tocontinually happen and, to some
degree, has largely happenedacross all history.
Speaker 5 (49:49):
But see, rudy, here's the difference when I do it,
it's merely teaching, whensomebody else does it, it's
indoctrination does it.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
It's indoctrination Stop indoctrinating us.
Speaker 5 (50:03):
Right.
See, I don't indoctrinate, Imerely teach.
Other people indoctrinate, andseriously.
I think that that's when bothsides of the aisle, that's how
they both view the other side.
They're the ones indoctrinating, we're the ones teaching.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
So let me ask you, let me ask you guys point blank
Do you think that this issomething that is going to lead
to something good?
Speaker 1 (50:31):
You're talking about the Texas initiative.
Speaker 3 (50:35):
The Texas initiative.
Yeah, sb 10.
Yeah, the Texas Initiative.
Yeah, just SB 10,.
Yeah, which is really just toput a sign of the Ten
Commandments in public schools.
That's what it says, right?
It doesn't talk about teachingthem.
It's just like you would put anAmerican flag, right you?
Speaker 5 (51:01):
would put this somewhere on public school
grounds.
I think that it's okay.
I just think it's rather Idon't know.
I've said that repeatedlytonight.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
I don't think it's in and of itself.
It's sufficient if they were toput together some sort of a
program that allowed there to bediscussion, intelligent
discussion, informed by peoplewho are experts in various, and
(51:37):
it wouldn't have to benecessarily religious people,
because, as you mentioned, rudy,much of our American-British
law, british, roman and evenWestern law is based upon a
number of these ideas and ideals, and not just the Ten
(51:59):
Commandments but what you weretalking about earlier the image
of God, the idea of the ImagoDei that every individual
carries within him or her a veryimage of God.
So those kinds of things withoutsome teaching, without some
context, without someexplanation, could be just a
faint way to gather dust.
(52:19):
So I think it will depend to alarge degree on each school and
on each principal, each schooldistrict, on what they decide to
do with that.
And it would not necessarilyhave to be a religious thing,
although religious experts mightbe called to testify, as it
(52:42):
were, and explaining what thesethings meant and the
significance of them along theway, so that people and you
could ask them say look, we'renot suggesting that you live by
this, but we think it's worthexploring and you can accept
these and you can accept these,you can accept these ideas.
(53:02):
We hope that you will, becausewe think it'll lead to a greater
good and a greater society.
But we hope that you will do so.
So I don't know.
Speaker 5 (53:14):
Again, I agree with you, David.
I just want to know, as amatter of fact, there's a part
of me not all of me, but there'sa part of me who would almost
prefer it was taught by thesecular community, Because when
you have somebody who'sreligious, they're going to let
their agendas come out.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
I'm not suggesting you have a single religion
represented to it.
I'm suggesting that you be thedesignated rabbi to go around to
all these places.
Speaker 5 (53:42):
I'm ready.
I'd be happy to.
I don't think they'd be happyto, but I'd be happy to.
Speaker 1 (53:48):
And then Rudy can be the designated Catholic voice
and go around to all of theseand I'm going to retire and I'll
let you guys take this stuff.
I'm just kidding, I'm justkidding retire and not let you
guys take this stuff.
So I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding, of course,but I don't think it should be a
single particular religioustradition.
I think it should be Catholic,I think it should be Protestant,
(54:10):
I think it should be Jewish, Ithink it could be even a Muslim
or another religious communitythat would engage these ideas.
Speaker 5 (54:20):
About 15 seconds.
Speaker 1 (54:22):
Yeah, okay, stuart, take it away.
Speaker 5 (54:24):
All right, this is a show of faith.
On AM 1070, the Answer Miranda,thank you for being our board
op and Valerie, thank you also.
This is a show of faith.
Hey, everybody, keep us in yourprayers, because you are
definitely going to be in ourprayers.
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