July 3, 2023 • 38 mins
What if Buddhism holds the key to our relationship with artificial intelligence? That's one of the compelling questions we grapple with in this thought-provoking episode. Settle in as we dissect a fascinating piece from The Atlantic that explores a monk's prediction about AI, the world's end, and how Buddhist teachings could provide an answer. As we delve deeper, we look at the intricacies of Theravada Buddhism and discuss how it may intersect with AI's capabilities.
The second half of our conversation takes you on a journey to discover AI's potential influence on personal growth and spirituality. We examine how AI-powered chatbots, virtual meditation apps, virtual reality, and digital prayer platforms transform our spiritual pursuits. But we're not just painting a rosy picture here. We critically evaluate the limitations of AI and the potential pitfalls through the viewpoint of a therapist and a Buddhist. We ponder how we can express Dharma, or truth, through AI. This episode uniquely combines technology and spirituality, offering a fresh perspective on these intersecting realms. Tune in to redefine your spiritual journey in the age of AI.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to A Therapist Buddhist in You.
My name is Luke Duboy and I'mhere with my favorite Buddhist
in quite possibly yours too.
I'm here with Zomo.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hey Luke, hello everyone Comment.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Share like It does mean a lot and gives other
people a chance to listen aswell.
In addition to that, we arereally enjoying this.
But you do have the opportunityto donate or grant us some
financial beings through this,so that will be in the show
notes and you can certainlydonate And we appreciate that if
(00:41):
you so choose.
Let's get into a veryinteresting topic, as all today
We have been doing some video,we've done camera, we've done
computer to do some videoaspects to our podcast over the
past couple months and we'vebeen enjoying that.
(01:02):
And I remember as all, a couplemonths ago we started talking
about AI and artificialintelligence and the effects
that's having on the world in alot of ways, and we talked about
how it can affect podcastingand things like that.
And I reached out to Zao aboutthis article in the Atlantic I
(01:26):
believe it was the month of June, maybe the first article in
July And, lo and behold, it wasabout a monk who thinks the
world is ending And what he'sreally talking about is can
Buddhism fix AI or artificialintelligence?
When I sent that article to you, what did you think about, zao?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, I read it right away.
I was putting my kids to sleepwhen you sent that and they were
already asleep.
Yeah, pretty interesting likethe intersection of spirituality
and artificial intelligence.
But my immediate reaction wascan Buddhism, or should Buddhism
(02:12):
, even claim a role here?
Is it part of the Dharma?
Should it be?
And then I read it and thosewere my initial thoughts And
then I kept reading it andpretty good stuff.
It provoked some interestingthoughts about what AI means,
which I have limitedunderstanding of, but also to go
deeper into Buddhist conceptsand what it's about.
(02:32):
So it's a great idea that youdecided to do a podcast topic on
that, because it's going tobring up some important things.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah.
So thank you all for listeningas we embark on this journey to
explore this fascinating, insome ways, relationship between
these two seemingly distinctrealms.
We have got artificialintelligence, often referred to
as AI, and it's made significantadvancements in recent years,
revolutionizing various aspectsof our lives, from self-driving
(03:02):
cars to virtual assistants.
But AI technology continues toshape our world in a bunch of
different ways, so relating itto spirituality is, to me, is a
whole other ballpark that Inever even considered.
We read the article, but Ithought it would be pretty
(03:23):
interesting if I use AI toexplain what the article was
about for our listeners.
So I'm going to read a twoblurb article And I believe the
Atlantic.
There's a paywall, but hey, nowyou can use AI to not pay for
monthly subscriptions,apparently, if you're interested
(03:44):
in the cliff notes, when wewere younger so I don't know if
you had this in your schoolingor upbringing we had this thing
called cliff notes, that if youhad a book to read and you
didn't read it all, you couldbuy the cliff notes version that
had it in summary or bulletpoints, so that way you could
answer the teacher's questionswhen you're in English class.
(04:05):
So this is what AI sums up thearticle.
This article in the Atlantic.
The monk who thinks the world isquote ending.
The monk's name is apologizedfor the pronunciation.
So are you for all?
A monk ordained in the ZenBuddhist tradition who founded a
(04:29):
monastery called Maple, and theacronym stands for Manasic
Academy for the preservation oflife on earth and the far north
in Vermont.
He believes that humanity isexponentially destroyed, life on
the same curve as we haveexponentially increased
intelligence, and that AI mightsoon destroy us Seems pretty
(04:57):
intense verbiage For all.
Provide spiritual advice to AIthinkers and host talks and
quote unquote awakening retreatsto researchers and developers,
including employees from open AI, google, deepmind and Apple.
Roughly 50 tech types have doneretreats at Maple in the past
(05:19):
few years.
The article explores thequestion of whether Buddhism can
fix AI.
That's the summary byartificial intelligence about
this article.
Well, what jumped out at you,zao, when it comes to reading
this article?
(05:39):
This Buddhist monk certainlyhas some passionate perspectives
on.
I mean, what was the quote fromthe?
from artificial intelligenceitself?
this curve is at a level thatwill destroy humankind.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot to unpack, but I guess the
foundations are the fact thatit is Zen Buddhist tradition
which is different from TidawadaBuddhism, So we can start with
that.
But also, you know, the topicand the purpose of our podcast
is well being, you know, whichis related to spirituality, So
(06:21):
we can start from those.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
But you always ground us so well.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah, the spirituality part, you know, is
that I mean, i have very limited, again, understanding of AI.
But but as far as what I knowabout chat, GPT and that thing
called natural languageprocessing, which is what AI is
about, that you know I'm also aninterpreter.
As an interpreterprofessionally, i'm not supposed
(06:49):
to translate word by word butto carry the spirit behind the
word.
So like the thing about naturalprocess language thing, my
understanding is that when weuse word and interact with the
AI, they're not reading thewords but they are able to catch
the intent behind the words.
So like that kind of intersectwith spirituality.
You know, because spiritualityI guess the word spirit is comes
(07:12):
from the meaning of the essence, the true nature of things, you
know.
So it's interesting that thereis an overlap.
But the monk's concern is moreabout where is it going to take
us, you know.
So not that something's wrongwith AI.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I want to make sure I heard that lens, that I heard
that correctly, that from yourperspective, that AI captures
the intent, similarly how you doas a language interpreter.
So that could be a definitionof spirituality, the spirit
(07:45):
behind the word.
I got EBGBs.
Do you hold true to thatdefinition of spirituality when
you put it in the context of AI?
and what you do as aninterpreter is not just carbon
(08:09):
copy take the Englishconversation and, as closely as
possible, translate it toBurmese, but you take the spirit
behind what you feel that theyare saying and translate it to
them.
Do you feel that a computer cando that just like you can, or
(08:31):
as humanistic as you can?
or go there before I babble.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, this is a very complex issue.
Complex topic.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
I don't think we would get here this quick, but
go ahead.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah.
So there's a lot of thingsgoing on.
First is the intuition part.
The thing about AI too is that,to answer your question, it is
yet to be revealed, i don't know, because there's that concept
of machine learning.
So when I interact with chat GBT, the reason and the source of
(09:10):
figuring out how to get theintent is from crunching all
these data and becoming thesolution by looking at the
patterns For us, for our brains,for our evolution.
It goes all the way back, waybefore internet.
So when I translate, it's notlike me gathering information
and reading all these Burmesebooks on the internet and
analyzing data and thentranslating, but it goes to
(09:32):
something spiritual, like myancestors, my culture, some
nuances, some culturaldifferences.
So for me it works the bestwhen I don't think.
But then ironically and thecontrast is that computers are
all about thinking, to compute,as to think, to calculate.
So for me that's where It getsreally confusing and interesting
(09:53):
, because we get our intuitionwhen we don't think, you know it
comes out, but then fromcomputer.
They rely solely on theanalysis and computing and
thinking and calculating.
So that's the contract.
I hope that's helpful And Ihope that's a good, solid ground
to stand on and unpack.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
What do you think, a different definition of
spirituality.
I, in my notes, i wrote downokay, how do I give the audience
a potential definition ofspirituality, even though
spirituality is deeply personaland profound and maybe as
subjective as any other word inthis language, next to love,
(10:34):
right?
But yeah, when we talk aboutspirituality, you know some
things that I wrote down.
It's, it's a source of solace,its guidance, it's can be used
for growth for individualsacross all kinds of cultures
throughout history.
It, like spirituality,encompasses an unbelievable wide
(10:56):
range of beliefs and practicesand insights.
And you know, one of myfavorite analogies for
spirituality is what's thedifference between spirituality
and religion?
I often use the analogy thatreligion is the glass, is the
cup.
Religion is the structural,pragmatic, um, patternistic
(11:17):
things that people go.
I like the glass or thereligion to be clear or glass or
plastic, and a lot of peoplelike certain religions to hold
the spirituality And I like tocall the spirituality the liquid
or the water that.
Yes, you can use religions forspirituality, but spirituality
(11:37):
there's just as many descriptorsfor that liquid and
spirituality as there is forreligions.
But yeah, in terms of how arewe going from artificial
intelligence to artificialspirituality, or how do we hold?
how does this AI hold thisspirituality in an artificial
(12:00):
way?
How do we even begin to defineit?
You know where we already thisis where we're at already More
questions than answers, yeah,and then another effective way
or another productive way thatwe can tackle this is through
human condition.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
You know, because that's what Buddhism is about
The human is suffering.
So, like I think the articlewhat is saying and what the
mission of that monk the way Ihave interpreted it is to have
that empathy.
You know, because if machinesare heartless, you know they can
do whatever they want, but,like, if there is a sense of
connection, you know you can dowhatever you want.
If machines are heartless, youknow they can do whatever they
(12:36):
want, but like, if there is asense of connection, empathy,
compassion, you know feeling thepain, feeling understood.
If that's the case, it can takeus further, beyond.
You know our imagination interms of infusing spirituality
with artificial intelligence,you know.
So that's the intent that I get, so maybe we can.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
And part of his message to these people that are
creating this artificialintelligence, using these
algorithms to create thisartificial intelligence and all
the things that come with it.
It sounds like this monk istrying to make sure that these
(13:23):
creators are putting theBuddhist principles in this
artificial intelligence And thatwas one of the takeaways for me
that in whenever there's thishuge change in history, whether
it's, you know, all of a sudden,you know farmers were worried
when there was machinery thatwere fearful to take care, take
(13:43):
away their job, and then youknow we've seen what just the
advancements we've had, and nowwe've got artificial
intelligence and people arefearful of how it's going to
affect you know it is going tochange and take a lot of jobs
(14:04):
away.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
That's just true.
And that's a fear factor.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
But with that fear is the possibility of unbelievable
growth, and his message isbecause it can do so much, and
the fear is it could control us.
If it's got these Buddhistprinciples and this algorithm,
then okay, it can do much betterthan rapid advancement at the
(14:34):
speed of light.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, very intriguing .
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Well, it's.
Yeah, we've touched upon it alittle bit, but let's just kind
of run down how AI is alreadybeing used is being used in
health care.
It's being employed to helpwith medical diagnostics, drug
discovery, personalized medicine, patient monitoring, early
detection and treatment outcomes.
It's being used in finances interms of algorithms to analyze
(15:11):
financial data, fraud detection.
Transportation We talked aboutthis already with cars and
predictive maintenance ofvehicles.
Personal assistance I have ahey Google in my house.
Hey Google, what's thetemperature, what's the music?
And then so yeah, it's beingused.
It turned on the lights and alot of ways already.
(15:37):
So, to think of it, with thespirituality, this is just a
whole another level of oh.
What does that mean?
So what do you see as thechallenges when it comes to AI,
when we bring in the spiritualaspect of it?
(15:59):
So let's get deeper into that,regardless of what this
gentleman thinks.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yeah, i mean if I stay true to the path of
Buddhism.
So if it's AI that's going tohelp me end suffering, then
that's great.
But if it's going to prolongthe suffering, it's going to
bring me deeper into thisreality of suffering and get
stuck there, then it's not inharmony with the purpose of
(16:27):
Buddhism.
But not everybody's goal is toend suffering, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
And I think where my mind goes with that, my version,
my therapist version of that,it can be good, it can be bad.
There's ethical and socialimplications that if it raises
ethical concerns and biases,then that's problematic.
But if it can help set up theconditions for spiritual growth
(16:52):
just like a therapist can, well,great, i'm all for it.
So I see this ethicalconsiderations and you're seeing
it as well.
Yeah, i could set up theconditions for spiritual growth.
Good, what about?
I think of dependence andreliability when it comes to
spirituality.
Can you imagine if we becomedependent on this for spiritual
(17:19):
growth?
What does that look like?
To me, that sounds likesuffering.
But When you think of someonepotentially being dependent on
artificial intelligence to tapinto that higher sense of self
or higher power or spirituality,what do you think of?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, that's some.
Yeah, not only attachment, butalso not only dependence, but
also attachment.
You know, okay.
So, but if it's like atemporary dependence, because
that's also the role of theteacher, the role of the Dharma
or the role of a raft, itspurpose is to cross the river.
Once you get to the other river, you can just move on.
So if the artificialintelligence versus spirituality
(18:01):
is like that, that's probablygood.
It will aid you to get to whereyou need to go, but then once
you get there, there's no needfor that anymore.
You know.
So, like that kind of augmentedintelligence would be more
productive and practical thanartificial intelligence.
You know something that canaugment us to get to where we
(18:21):
want to go, and then we can moveon.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
You've always said that, as a meditation and
Tidabata Buddhist life coach,that you never want your clients
to be dependent on you formeditation or your life coaching
Same thing as therapists.
Now someone might say well,what's the harm in being
dependent on this artificialintelligence if I'm reaching and
(18:46):
receiving and connecting thespirituality that's helping me
with growth and development andhelping me with coping skill,
being able to cope in ahealthier way?
What would you say to that?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah, you're nearly on a really important point
about this topic because, like,when I connect, so the thing
about human intelligence andartificial intelligence is that
the reason, sort of, whenever Iconnect to another human being,
there's a human connection Andthe reason why is that I see
(19:21):
myself in that person.
You know that for me is a trueliberation, true spirituality.
But is that possible with an AI?
you know?
So, like, if it's going to aidme to see my?
because you know, if the AI'srole is for me to get to places,
get things done, that's great.
But from the point of view ofspirituality, it needs to point
me towards myself, to be able tolook at within myself.
(19:44):
You know, because only then Ican be like, okay, this is what
I want and this is what's trueto me.
So, like, for me that's veryimportant.
You know that's also whathappens when you meditate, when
you connect, when you are inservice, helping others, you
find yourself.
You know that to me is a truespirituality.
But if it's just like takingyou away and then use this AI as
(20:06):
a distraction not to look atyourself, not to look at
yourself, then we're kind ofmissing the point.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
So the way I hear that is there's a difference
between personal insight andawareness and escape.
Because I can use connectionright, i mean there's virtual
reality where I'm walking andtaking hikes in the woods and
(20:34):
some people's definition ofspirituality is connecting with
nature.
When does the healthy becometoxic?
When does the healthy becomeescape?
When does the healthy become amaladaptive pattern and
avoidance?
of what I'm hearing you say isthat internal awareness and
(20:56):
growth.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, that's a big one.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
That's a big one, and I think that can be hard, and
especially with this artificialintelligence and this virtual
reality that we might see peopleuse for an altered nature
connection, a virtual realityversion of creative expression
(21:20):
and engagement, where we can getlost in a world that isn't
reality.
Sounds like drugs a little bit,doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, it's got a similar ring to it.
Yeah, i think we're touching onreally key topics You as a
therapist, me as a coach.
as well as that, we do our bestwhen we connect.
So if there's an artificialintelligence trying to help me,
but then I'm feeling understood,but then like, do you really
(21:51):
understand me?
Have you gone through what I'vegone through?
Do you have human experience?
Then that's kind ofquestionable.
So for me that's a puzzling andmore to be revealed part,
because, yeah, it's yet to beconcluded, because we don't have
enough data.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Let's talk about some of those artificial
spirituality examples that doexist.
Virtual meditation apps Theyuse AI algorithms to provide
guided meditation sessions,personalized meditations,
real-time feedback based onindividual preferences and goals
and, like this is the rightguided meditation for me right
(22:30):
now?
Sounds to be very valuable.
There are chatbot spiritualguides.
Never thought I'd see thatbefore.
Chatbot spiritual guides That'scertainly not a guru, right?
AI powered chat bots or virtualassistants are designed to
simulate spiritual guidance andsupport.
Sounds like chat bot therapyand that might be a whole nother
(22:55):
episode that we'll do with AIand therapy because it's out
there.
There's pros and cons to it.
Yeah, these chat bot spiritualguides can provide advice
answers.
You ask them spiritualquestions.
It'll give you spiritualanswers back.
It'll engage in conversationabout spirituality.
(23:17):
That is a way to connect.
Digital prayer platforms, aigenerated spiritual teaching.
So it's just another.
I'll call it an advancement.
It's an advancement.
There's AI powered TAO or TEROor Oracle card readings.
(23:39):
There's virtual religiousrituals, emotional support, ai
companion.
So it goes on and on, and onand on.
So these are some of theexamples that we're referring to
when we use the verbiage ofartificial spirituality.
Where do we go from here?
Zal, i think we're not for oragainst.
(24:03):
We're certainly highlightingsome things to be conscious of,
that sometimes, as humans, wecan go to extremes, and you were
relating it to as attachment orconnection, or I'm using the
words of toxic or dependency ora form of addiction.
(24:26):
Where do you want to go fromhere?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, i mean I feel optimistic about it, or more so.
I feel realistic about thisbecause, in a nutshell, i think
it will be a good challenge forhumanity.
Because the challenge for me,as I mentioned earlier maybe
this is too much of asimplification is that is it
going to help me see the truthor is it going to make me
(24:51):
deviate from truth?
So, like, if I'm interactingwith a chat bot, spiritual guide
or whatever, if it'sdistracting me from seeing
myself, then it's not helping me.
But essentially this is alsowhat I do as a life coach as
well is that before I helpsomebody effectively, i need to
(25:13):
find out what they want.
So everything is all personaland unique.
So, if there is an artificialintelligence, spiritual guide,
what am I actually looking for?
Or if I don't know what I'mlooking for, is this guy is
going to help me to realize whatI'm looking for, as opposed to
being lured into a plan that Iam not aware of?
(25:34):
So it's all about going within.
If it's going to help me to gowithin and find my truth, great,
but if not, i'm stuck in thissamsara, in this cycle of
suffering.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
One of the things that I've gotten from you over
your teachings of meditationpractice.
you've often been not somonastic and structural that say
no guided meditations, but youare really big on meditations
that don't involve music orguidance.
(26:08):
Why And certainly notartificial intelligence if
you're often a support ofsitting in silence when it comes
to meditation, Why do you seethat as a very strong benefit in
your practice?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, i'm not against that, but I'm just cautious
about where it can take us,because mine is a very tender,
personal, friendly thing.
but it can also be programmed.
So if I'm following guidanceand if I'm reacting or following
it can sometimes take me away,because there are also some
(26:49):
really good meditations wherethe guidance is actually to help
you look within.
a lot of long pauses, those aregreat.
but if it's like a hypnosisthat takes you to create stories
, fantasy, making the purpose tobe just to calm you if that's
your goal, great.
But that's not where the trueliberation is.
Otherwise you're just findingthe temporary comfort.
Oh, this music is soothing, soI feel great.
(27:11):
Let me go out and live in theworld and then I'll aspire and
then come back.
I'm supposed to having a reallysolid, self-reliant, true
internal support that isfaithful to you anytime, which I
think in my experience is onlyfound through silence and
stillness.
So that's why that's where Istand with that.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Yeah, i'm certainly an advocate for meeting people
where they're at when it comesto therapy or meditation or
their health journey andwellness journey, whatever that
might be, and having these AI,artificial intelligence and
(27:56):
virtual realities and augmentedrealities I think we're going to
be hearing it more calledcoining it, augmented realities
or put a nice twist to itintentionally to help people
begin that process.
I mean, meditating for fiveminutes a day can seem like just
impossible for a lot of us, meincluded.
(28:18):
Sometimes going to the gymthree times a week eating
healthy can be seems sodifficult and resistance and
challenging that there can beunbelievable benefit to things
like VR and augmented realityand AI to help people do that.
But I'm also someone that isvery conscious of people that
(28:41):
become so dependent on just onething where it prevents them
from strengthening all aspectsof a holistic health and
wellness journey.
So it can heighten these senses, it can activate the insight
(29:02):
and intrigue, but I don't thinkI would have been one that would
have.
I'm sure I would do most of mymeditation with a guided audio
track if it wasn't for you Andbecause you walked me through
doing some meditations withoutthe apps that it activated
(29:26):
something in my practice that Iprobably wouldn't have gotten.
So that's another feather in thecap for not just relying on I
mean just sounds horribleartificial spirituality.
It's like I work with a lot ofclients that have substance use
and I often relate to theclients that have these highs
(29:49):
with a mind-altering,mood-altering chemical and
substance as a numbing high.
Yeah, you're getting high, butit's the most numbing high that
you will ever feel in sobrietyor recovery, when they're no
longer numbing out thesesubstances, achieving a goal,
making a deadline, knockingcheckmarks off their lists, and
(30:14):
they get this feeling ofaccomplishments and something
they work for as a higher highthat they ever feel than just
numbing out with drugs andalcohol, even though they have a
sense of euphoria, guessing, aspeople continue their practice
and spirituality, that theywon't have to augment it with an
(30:35):
artificial intelligence to makethese higher senses of
spirituality.
And I think the thing that'simportant to connect with that
is that knowing your inner self,part of that spirituality, that
that higher power is within.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, yeah, as you were talking, i thought it just
comes to mind about, like, whatmakes us to be bonded is also
what is going to set us free.
What I mean by that is thatthere is this concept of anatta
in Buddhism, which is translatedas the absence of self.
So we are suffering because wehave this attachment to who I
(31:18):
think I am, who I am, which isvalid, which is true, but then
that's also what is limiting me.
But then, if I connect thatwith AI, it's kind of
interesting, right, like machinedon't have a mind, machine
don't have identity, but we arecreating identity And that's how
they're going to relate to us.
So like we're starting at twodifferent, because we already
have an identity, but we'recreating identity for them.
(31:39):
So, in a way, they're at anadvantage point because they
already have anatta, they knowthere's no self.
But for me, that's, for us,that's what's going to set us
free to realize that thatthere's an absence of self.
And that's also why I feeloptimistic and realistic about
it is that the concept of Dharmain Buddhism, which is the truth
(32:00):
, is that it doesn't matterwhere you go to Mars or
different universe like there isthis inutible truth which will
never contradict itself.
It will always be there.
So if that's really the case,it will show up in AI too.
You know, because there is no.
There is no need for a creation, there is no need for an
invention, there is no need forregulation.
You know, if it's a true truth,it's going to appear.
(32:24):
So it's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
We have one Buddhist perspective that is optimistic
about the whole thing And wehave this other Buddhist from
Vermont who feels that, on thispace, that humanity has
exponentially destroyed life onthe same curve as we have
exponentially increasedintelligence, and that AI might
(32:48):
soon destroy us.
It's a little bit differentfrom your perspective, yeah,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah, i don't have any.
Yeah, i don't know much aboutZen, buddhism and I don't know
about this monk, but my firstreaction to that is that that
fear is coming from attachment.
Right To be worried aboutsomething like that, which I
don't yeah, i don't want that tobe a criticism, but that
doesn't really sound like aBuddhist thought for me, that I
(33:17):
should actually be free of worry.
I shouldn't create any kind ofanxiety, you know?
oh, i'm so anyway.
So that's the thought thatcomes to mind.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Well, I don't think we could go too much farther
than that, do we?
That's yeah, we've covered itWell in our exploration of
artificial spirituality what aname that is and examples of AI
applications in the realm ofspirituality, it becomes evident
(33:50):
that, while these technologiescan simulate certain aspects of
spiritual practices and guidance, they can never fully replicate
the authenticity and depth ofgenuine spirituality.
True spirituality is a deeplypersonal and meaningful
experience that transcendsalgorithms and computational
processes.
(34:10):
It encompasses the complexinterplay of emotions and
tuition and the human connectionto something greater than
ourselves.
It involves profound moments ofself-discovery, transformation
and a quest for meaning andpurpose in life For some people.
At its core, spirituality isabout the exploration of our
(34:31):
inner selves, our relationshipswith others and our connection
to the universe.
It goes beyond logical analysisand measurable data, delving
into the realms of mystery,faith and transcendence.
It is an experiential journeythat cannot be quantified or
fully understood by machinesThat.
I believe AI might be able tomimic certain aspects of
(34:54):
spirituality, providing guidancerituals or even generating
spiritual writings.
However, it lacks the capacityfor genuine consciousness so far
, empathy so far and tuitionthat are essential to the human
spiritual experience.
It cannot fully comprehend thedepth of human emotions, the
complexity of our desires andfears, or the profound moments
(35:16):
of spiritual awakening andtranscendence That you just have
to feel.
Moreover, spirituality isintrinsically tied to human
relationships and community.
It thrives on the sharedexperiences, wisdom and support
that we find in spiritualcommunities and traditions.
While AI can simulateinteractions and provide
(35:37):
information, it cannot replacethe power of human connection,
compassion and the collectivewisdom passed through from
generation to generation.
As we navigate the advancementsof AI, it is potential
applications in various aspectsof our lives, including
spirituality.
It is crucial to remember thatthe essence of spiritual lies
(35:57):
and our authentic humanexperiences.
It is deeply personal andsubjective journey that cannot
be replicated or replaced bymachines.
There you have, it Sounds goodThat summarizes it all.
I can't wait to look back atthis in 10 years probably five
(36:19):
years, or even two years at therate, of artificial intelligence
.
I'll probably read an articleor two about this when it comes
to specifically therapy andartificial intelligence.
but there is certainly aspiritual connection that we
make with another human being,but we certainly do find ways to
(36:39):
connect with computers andelectronics too.
So nothing might take away allgood or all bad.
That's a big takeaway for me.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, this provokes for me an attitude of curiosity.
I'm just curious, not worry,not concerned, not anxious, but
curious.
It's very puzzling.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Embracing the mystery .
huh Yeah, and the change.
Well, thanks everyone forlistening.
Can't wait to.
This will be on YouTube and allthe podcast platforms that
you're listening to now, butplease check out our Facebook
page and our other social medialinks in the notes below.
(37:28):
And, once again, please like,comment, share.
It would mean a lot, too.
if you've listened to the atleast three episodes, leave a
comment like.
That's our handshake agreementif you found this valuable.
My name is Luke DeBoy.
This is Zah.
We'll see you next time.
Thanks so much.
Thank you.
Welcome to A Therapist Buddhist in You.
My name is Luke Duboy and I'mhere with my favorite Buddhist
in quite possibly yours too.
I'm here with Zomo.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hey Luke, hello everyone Comment.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Share like It does mean a lot and gives other
people a chance to listen aswell.
In addition to that, we arereally enjoying this.
But you do have the opportunityto donate or grant us some
financial beings through this,so that will be in the show
notes and you can certainlydonate And we appreciate that if
(00:41):
you so choose.
Let's get into a veryinteresting topic, as all today
We have been doing some video,we've done camera, we've done
computer to do some videoaspects to our podcast over the
past couple months and we'vebeen enjoying that.
(01:02):
And I remember as all, a couplemonths ago we started talking
about AI and artificialintelligence and the effects
that's having on the world in alot of ways, and we talked about
how it can affect podcastingand things like that.
And I reached out to Zao aboutthis article in the Atlantic I
(01:26):
believe it was the month of June, maybe the first article in
July And, lo and behold, it wasabout a monk who thinks the
world is ending And what he'sreally talking about is can
Buddhism fix AI or artificialintelligence?
When I sent that article to you, what did you think about, zao?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, I read it right away.
I was putting my kids to sleepwhen you sent that and they were
already asleep.
Yeah, pretty interesting likethe intersection of spirituality
and artificial intelligence.
But my immediate reaction wascan Buddhism, or should Buddhism
(02:12):
, even claim a role here?
Is it part of the Dharma?
Should it be?
And then I read it and thosewere my initial thoughts And
then I kept reading it andpretty good stuff.
It provoked some interestingthoughts about what AI means,
which I have limitedunderstanding of, but also to go
deeper into Buddhist conceptsand what it's about.
(02:32):
So it's a great idea that youdecided to do a podcast topic on
that, because it's going tobring up some important things.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah.
So thank you all for listeningas we embark on this journey to
explore this fascinating, insome ways, relationship between
these two seemingly distinctrealms.
We have got artificialintelligence, often referred to
as AI, and it's made significantadvancements in recent years,
revolutionizing various aspectsof our lives, from self-driving
(03:02):
cars to virtual assistants.
But AI technology continues toshape our world in a bunch of
different ways, so relating itto spirituality is, to me, is a
whole other ballpark that Inever even considered.
We read the article, but Ithought it would be pretty
(03:23):
interesting if I use AI toexplain what the article was
about for our listeners.
So I'm going to read a twoblurb article And I believe the
Atlantic.
There's a paywall, but hey, nowyou can use AI to not pay for
monthly subscriptions,apparently, if you're interested
(03:44):
in the cliff notes, when wewere younger so I don't know if
you had this in your schoolingor upbringing we had this thing
called cliff notes, that if youhad a book to read and you
didn't read it all, you couldbuy the cliff notes version that
had it in summary or bulletpoints, so that way you could
answer the teacher's questionswhen you're in English class.
(04:05):
So this is what AI sums up thearticle.
This article in the Atlantic.
The monk who thinks the world isquote ending.
The monk's name is apologizedfor the pronunciation.
So are you for all?
A monk ordained in the ZenBuddhist tradition who founded a
(04:29):
monastery called Maple, and theacronym stands for Manasic
Academy for the preservation oflife on earth and the far north
in Vermont.
He believes that humanity isexponentially destroyed, life on
the same curve as we haveexponentially increased
intelligence, and that AI mightsoon destroy us Seems pretty
(04:57):
intense verbiage For all.
Provide spiritual advice to AIthinkers and host talks and
quote unquote awakening retreatsto researchers and developers,
including employees from open AI, google, deepmind and Apple.
Roughly 50 tech types have doneretreats at Maple in the past
(05:19):
few years.
The article explores thequestion of whether Buddhism can
fix AI.
That's the summary byartificial intelligence about
this article.
Well, what jumped out at you,zao, when it comes to reading
this article?
(05:39):
This Buddhist monk certainlyhas some passionate perspectives
on.
I mean, what was the quote fromthe?
from artificial intelligenceitself?
this curve is at a level thatwill destroy humankind.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot to unpack, but I guess the
foundations are the fact thatit is Zen Buddhist tradition
which is different from TidawadaBuddhism, So we can start with
that.
But also, you know, the topicand the purpose of our podcast
is well being, you know, whichis related to spirituality, So
(06:21):
we can start from those.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
But you always ground us so well.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah, the spirituality part, you know, is
that I mean, i have very limited, again, understanding of AI.
But but as far as what I knowabout chat, GPT and that thing
called natural languageprocessing, which is what AI is
about, that you know I'm also aninterpreter.
As an interpreterprofessionally, i'm not supposed
(06:49):
to translate word by word butto carry the spirit behind the
word.
So like the thing about naturalprocess language thing, my
understanding is that when weuse word and interact with the
AI, they're not reading thewords but they are able to catch
the intent behind the words.
So like that kind of intersectwith spirituality.
You know, because spiritualityI guess the word spirit is comes
(07:12):
from the meaning of the essence, the true nature of things, you
know.
So it's interesting that thereis an overlap.
But the monk's concern is moreabout where is it going to take
us, you know.
So not that something's wrongwith AI.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I want to make sure I heard that lens, that I heard
that correctly, that from yourperspective, that AI captures
the intent, similarly how you doas a language interpreter.
So that could be a definitionof spirituality, the spirit
(07:45):
behind the word.
I got EBGBs.
Do you hold true to thatdefinition of spirituality when
you put it in the context of AI?
and what you do as aninterpreter is not just carbon
(08:09):
copy take the Englishconversation and, as closely as
possible, translate it toBurmese, but you take the spirit
behind what you feel that theyare saying and translate it to
them.
Do you feel that a computer cando that just like you can, or
(08:31):
as humanistic as you can?
or go there before I babble.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, this is a very complex issue.
Complex topic.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
I don't think we would get here this quick, but
go ahead.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah.
So there's a lot of thingsgoing on.
First is the intuition part.
The thing about AI too is that,to answer your question, it is
yet to be revealed, i don't know, because there's that concept
of machine learning.
So when I interact with chat GBT, the reason and the source of
(09:10):
figuring out how to get theintent is from crunching all
these data and becoming thesolution by looking at the
patterns For us, for our brains,for our evolution.
It goes all the way back, waybefore internet.
So when I translate, it's notlike me gathering information
and reading all these Burmesebooks on the internet and
analyzing data and thentranslating, but it goes to
(09:32):
something spiritual, like myancestors, my culture, some
nuances, some culturaldifferences.
So for me it works the bestwhen I don't think.
But then ironically and thecontrast is that computers are
all about thinking, to compute,as to think, to calculate.
So for me that's where It getsreally confusing and interesting
(09:53):
, because we get our intuitionwhen we don't think, you know it
comes out, but then fromcomputer.
They rely solely on theanalysis and computing and
thinking and calculating.
So that's the contract.
I hope that's helpful And Ihope that's a good, solid ground
to stand on and unpack.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
What do you think, a different definition of
spirituality.
I, in my notes, i wrote downokay, how do I give the audience
a potential definition ofspirituality, even though
spirituality is deeply personaland profound and maybe as
subjective as any other word inthis language, next to love,
(10:34):
right?
But yeah, when we talk aboutspirituality, you know some
things that I wrote down.
It's, it's a source of solace,its guidance, it's can be used
for growth for individualsacross all kinds of cultures
throughout history.
It, like spirituality,encompasses an unbelievable wide
(10:56):
range of beliefs and practicesand insights.
And you know, one of myfavorite analogies for
spirituality is what's thedifference between spirituality
and religion?
I often use the analogy thatreligion is the glass, is the
cup.
Religion is the structural,pragmatic, um, patternistic
(11:17):
things that people go.
I like the glass or thereligion to be clear or glass or
plastic, and a lot of peoplelike certain religions to hold
the spirituality And I like tocall the spirituality the liquid
or the water that.
Yes, you can use religions forspirituality, but spirituality
(11:37):
there's just as many descriptorsfor that liquid and
spirituality as there is forreligions.
But yeah, in terms of how arewe going from artificial
intelligence to artificialspirituality, or how do we hold?
how does this AI hold thisspirituality in an artificial
(12:00):
way?
How do we even begin to defineit?
You know where we already thisis where we're at already More
questions than answers, yeah,and then another effective way
or another productive way thatwe can tackle this is through
human condition.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
You know, because that's what Buddhism is about
The human is suffering.
So, like I think the articlewhat is saying and what the
mission of that monk the way Ihave interpreted it is to have
that empathy.
You know, because if machinesare heartless, you know they can
do whatever they want, but,like, if there is a sense of
connection, you know you can dowhatever you want.
If machines are heartless, youknow they can do whatever they
(12:36):
want, but like, if there is asense of connection, empathy,
compassion, you know feeling thepain, feeling understood.
If that's the case, it can takeus further, beyond.
You know our imagination interms of infusing spirituality
with artificial intelligence,you know.
So that's the intent that I get, so maybe we can.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
And part of his message to these people that are
creating this artificialintelligence, using these
algorithms to create thisartificial intelligence and all
the things that come with it.
It sounds like this monk istrying to make sure that these
(13:23):
creators are putting theBuddhist principles in this
artificial intelligence And thatwas one of the takeaways for me
that in whenever there's thishuge change in history, whether
it's, you know, all of a sudden,you know farmers were worried
when there was machinery thatwere fearful to take care, take
(13:43):
away their job, and then youknow we've seen what just the
advancements we've had, and nowwe've got artificial
intelligence and people arefearful of how it's going to
affect you know it is going tochange and take a lot of jobs
(14:04):
away.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
That's just true.
And that's a fear factor.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
But with that fear is the possibility of unbelievable
growth, and his message isbecause it can do so much, and
the fear is it could control us.
If it's got these Buddhistprinciples and this algorithm,
then okay, it can do much betterthan rapid advancement at the
(14:34):
speed of light.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, very intriguing .
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Well, it's.
Yeah, we've touched upon it alittle bit, but let's just kind
of run down how AI is alreadybeing used is being used in
health care.
It's being employed to helpwith medical diagnostics, drug
discovery, personalized medicine, patient monitoring, early
detection and treatment outcomes.
It's being used in finances interms of algorithms to analyze
(15:11):
financial data, fraud detection.
Transportation We talked aboutthis already with cars and
predictive maintenance ofvehicles.
Personal assistance I have ahey Google in my house.
Hey Google, what's thetemperature, what's the music?
And then so yeah, it's beingused.
It turned on the lights and alot of ways already.
(15:37):
So, to think of it, with thespirituality, this is just a
whole another level of oh.
What does that mean?
So what do you see as thechallenges when it comes to AI,
when we bring in the spiritualaspect of it?
(15:59):
So let's get deeper into that,regardless of what this
gentleman thinks.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yeah, i mean if I stay true to the path of
Buddhism.
So if it's AI that's going tohelp me end suffering, then
that's great.
But if it's going to prolongthe suffering, it's going to
bring me deeper into thisreality of suffering and get
stuck there, then it's not inharmony with the purpose of
(16:27):
Buddhism.
But not everybody's goal is toend suffering, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
And I think where my mind goes with that, my version,
my therapist version of that,it can be good, it can be bad.
There's ethical and socialimplications that if it raises
ethical concerns and biases,then that's problematic.
But if it can help set up theconditions for spiritual growth
(16:52):
just like a therapist can, well,great, i'm all for it.
So I see this ethicalconsiderations and you're seeing
it as well.
Yeah, i could set up theconditions for spiritual growth.
Good, what about?
I think of dependence andreliability when it comes to
spirituality.
Can you imagine if we becomedependent on this for spiritual
(17:19):
growth?
What does that look like?
To me, that sounds likesuffering.
But When you think of someonepotentially being dependent on
artificial intelligence to tapinto that higher sense of self
or higher power or spirituality,what do you think of?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, that's some.
Yeah, not only attachment, butalso not only dependence, but
also attachment.
You know, okay.
So, but if it's like atemporary dependence, because
that's also the role of theteacher, the role of the Dharma
or the role of a raft, itspurpose is to cross the river.
Once you get to the other river, you can just move on.
So if the artificialintelligence versus spirituality
(18:01):
is like that, that's probablygood.
It will aid you to get to whereyou need to go, but then once
you get there, there's no needfor that anymore.
You know.
So, like that kind of augmentedintelligence would be more
productive and practical thanartificial intelligence.
You know something that canaugment us to get to where we
(18:21):
want to go, and then we can moveon.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
You've always said that, as a meditation and
Tidabata Buddhist life coach,that you never want your clients
to be dependent on you formeditation or your life coaching
Same thing as therapists.
Now someone might say well,what's the harm in being
dependent on this artificialintelligence if I'm reaching and
(18:46):
receiving and connecting thespirituality that's helping me
with growth and development andhelping me with coping skill,
being able to cope in ahealthier way?
What would you say to that?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah, you're nearly on a really important point
about this topic because, like,when I connect, so the thing
about human intelligence andartificial intelligence is that
the reason, sort of, whenever Iconnect to another human being,
there's a human connection Andthe reason why is that I see
(19:21):
myself in that person.
You know that for me is a trueliberation, true spirituality.
But is that possible with an AI?
you know?
So, like, if it's going to aidme to see my?
because you know, if the AI'srole is for me to get to places,
get things done, that's great.
But from the point of view ofspirituality, it needs to point
me towards myself, to be able tolook at within myself.
(19:44):
You know, because only then Ican be like, okay, this is what
I want and this is what's trueto me.
So, like, for me that's veryimportant.
You know that's also whathappens when you meditate, when
you connect, when you are inservice, helping others, you
find yourself.
You know that to me is a truespirituality.
But if it's just like takingyou away and then use this AI as
(20:06):
a distraction not to look atyourself, not to look at
yourself, then we're kind ofmissing the point.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
So the way I hear that is there's a difference
between personal insight andawareness and escape.
Because I can use connectionright, i mean there's virtual
reality where I'm walking andtaking hikes in the woods and
(20:34):
some people's definition ofspirituality is connecting with
nature.
When does the healthy becometoxic?
When does the healthy becomeescape?
When does the healthy become amaladaptive pattern and
avoidance?
of what I'm hearing you say isthat internal awareness and
(20:56):
growth.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, that's a big one.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
That's a big one, and I think that can be hard, and
especially with this artificialintelligence and this virtual
reality that we might see peopleuse for an altered nature
connection, a virtual realityversion of creative expression
(21:20):
and engagement, where we can getlost in a world that isn't
reality.
Sounds like drugs a little bit,doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, it's got a similar ring to it.
Yeah, i think we're touching onreally key topics You as a
therapist, me as a coach.
as well as that, we do our bestwhen we connect.
So if there's an artificialintelligence trying to help me,
but then I'm feeling understood,but then like, do you really
(21:51):
understand me?
Have you gone through what I'vegone through?
Do you have human experience?
Then that's kind ofquestionable.
So for me that's a puzzling andmore to be revealed part,
because, yeah, it's yet to beconcluded, because we don't have
enough data.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Let's talk about some of those artificial
spirituality examples that doexist.
Virtual meditation apps Theyuse AI algorithms to provide
guided meditation sessions,personalized meditations,
real-time feedback based onindividual preferences and goals
and, like this is the rightguided meditation for me right
(22:30):
now?
Sounds to be very valuable.
There are chatbot spiritualguides.
Never thought I'd see thatbefore.
Chatbot spiritual guides That'scertainly not a guru, right?
AI powered chat bots or virtualassistants are designed to
simulate spiritual guidance andsupport.
Sounds like chat bot therapyand that might be a whole nother
(22:55):
episode that we'll do with AIand therapy because it's out
there.
There's pros and cons to it.
Yeah, these chat bot spiritualguides can provide advice
answers.
You ask them spiritualquestions.
It'll give you spiritualanswers back.
It'll engage in conversationabout spirituality.
(23:17):
That is a way to connect.
Digital prayer platforms, aigenerated spiritual teaching.
So it's just another.
I'll call it an advancement.
It's an advancement.
There's AI powered TAO or TEROor Oracle card readings.
(23:39):
There's virtual religiousrituals, emotional support, ai
companion.
So it goes on and on, and onand on.
So these are some of theexamples that we're referring to
when we use the verbiage ofartificial spirituality.
Where do we go from here?
Zal, i think we're not for oragainst.
(24:03):
We're certainly highlightingsome things to be conscious of,
that sometimes, as humans, wecan go to extremes, and you were
relating it to as attachment orconnection, or I'm using the
words of toxic or dependency ora form of addiction.
(24:26):
Where do you want to go fromhere?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, i mean I feel optimistic about it, or more so.
I feel realistic about thisbecause, in a nutshell, i think
it will be a good challenge forhumanity.
Because the challenge for me,as I mentioned earlier maybe
this is too much of asimplification is that is it
going to help me see the truthor is it going to make me
(24:51):
deviate from truth?
So, like, if I'm interactingwith a chat bot, spiritual guide
or whatever, if it'sdistracting me from seeing
myself, then it's not helping me.
But essentially this is alsowhat I do as a life coach as
well is that before I helpsomebody effectively, i need to
(25:13):
find out what they want.
So everything is all personaland unique.
So, if there is an artificialintelligence, spiritual guide,
what am I actually looking for?
Or if I don't know what I'mlooking for, is this guy is
going to help me to realize whatI'm looking for, as opposed to
being lured into a plan that Iam not aware of?
(25:34):
So it's all about going within.
If it's going to help me to gowithin and find my truth, great,
but if not, i'm stuck in thissamsara, in this cycle of
suffering.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
One of the things that I've gotten from you over
your teachings of meditationpractice.
you've often been not somonastic and structural that say
no guided meditations, but youare really big on meditations
that don't involve music orguidance.
(26:08):
Why And certainly notartificial intelligence if
you're often a support ofsitting in silence when it comes
to meditation, Why do you seethat as a very strong benefit in
your practice?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, i'm not against that, but I'm just cautious
about where it can take us,because mine is a very tender,
personal, friendly thing.
but it can also be programmed.
So if I'm following guidanceand if I'm reacting or following
it can sometimes take me away,because there are also some
(26:49):
really good meditations wherethe guidance is actually to help
you look within.
a lot of long pauses, those aregreat.
but if it's like a hypnosisthat takes you to create stories
, fantasy, making the purpose tobe just to calm you if that's
your goal, great.
But that's not where the trueliberation is.
Otherwise you're just findingthe temporary comfort.
Oh, this music is soothing, soI feel great.
(27:11):
Let me go out and live in theworld and then I'll aspire and
then come back.
I'm supposed to having a reallysolid, self-reliant, true
internal support that isfaithful to you anytime, which I
think in my experience is onlyfound through silence and
stillness.
So that's why that's where Istand with that.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Yeah, i'm certainly an advocate for meeting people
where they're at when it comesto therapy or meditation or
their health journey andwellness journey, whatever that
might be, and having these AI,artificial intelligence and
(27:56):
virtual realities and augmentedrealities I think we're going to
be hearing it more calledcoining it, augmented realities
or put a nice twist to itintentionally to help people
begin that process.
I mean, meditating for fiveminutes a day can seem like just
impossible for a lot of us, meincluded.
(28:18):
Sometimes going to the gymthree times a week eating
healthy can be seems sodifficult and resistance and
challenging that there can beunbelievable benefit to things
like VR and augmented realityand AI to help people do that.
But I'm also someone that isvery conscious of people that
(28:41):
become so dependent on just onething where it prevents them
from strengthening all aspectsof a holistic health and
wellness journey.
So it can heighten these senses, it can activate the insight
(29:02):
and intrigue, but I don't thinkI would have been one that would
have.
I'm sure I would do most of mymeditation with a guided audio
track if it wasn't for you Andbecause you walked me through
doing some meditations withoutthe apps that it activated
(29:26):
something in my practice that Iprobably wouldn't have gotten.
So that's another feather in thecap for not just relying on I
mean just sounds horribleartificial spirituality.
It's like I work with a lot ofclients that have substance use
and I often relate to theclients that have these highs
(29:49):
with a mind-altering,mood-altering chemical and
substance as a numbing high.
Yeah, you're getting high, butit's the most numbing high that
you will ever feel in sobrietyor recovery, when they're no
longer numbing out thesesubstances, achieving a goal,
making a deadline, knockingcheckmarks off their lists, and
(30:14):
they get this feeling ofaccomplishments and something
they work for as a higher highthat they ever feel than just
numbing out with drugs andalcohol, even though they have a
sense of euphoria, guessing, aspeople continue their practice
and spirituality, that theywon't have to augment it with an
(30:35):
artificial intelligence to makethese higher senses of
spirituality.
And I think the thing that'simportant to connect with that
is that knowing your inner self,part of that spirituality, that
that higher power is within.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, yeah, as you were talking, i thought it just
comes to mind about, like, whatmakes us to be bonded is also
what is going to set us free.
What I mean by that is thatthere is this concept of anatta
in Buddhism, which is translatedas the absence of self.
So we are suffering because wehave this attachment to who I
(31:18):
think I am, who I am, which isvalid, which is true, but then
that's also what is limiting me.
But then, if I connect thatwith AI, it's kind of
interesting, right, like machinedon't have a mind, machine
don't have identity, but we arecreating identity And that's how
they're going to relate to us.
So like we're starting at twodifferent, because we already
have an identity, but we'recreating identity for them.
(31:39):
So, in a way, they're at anadvantage point because they
already have anatta, they knowthere's no self.
But for me, that's, for us,that's what's going to set us
free to realize that thatthere's an absence of self.
And that's also why I feeloptimistic and realistic about
it is that the concept of Dharmain Buddhism, which is the truth
(32:00):
, is that it doesn't matterwhere you go to Mars or
different universe like there isthis inutible truth which will
never contradict itself.
It will always be there.
So if that's really the case,it will show up in AI too.
You know, because there is no.
There is no need for a creation, there is no need for an
invention, there is no need forregulation.
You know, if it's a true truth,it's going to appear.
(32:24):
So it's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
We have one Buddhist perspective that is optimistic
about the whole thing And wehave this other Buddhist from
Vermont who feels that, on thispace, that humanity has
exponentially destroyed life onthe same curve as we have
exponentially increasedintelligence, and that AI might
(32:48):
soon destroy us.
It's a little bit differentfrom your perspective, yeah,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah, i don't have any.
Yeah, i don't know much aboutZen, buddhism and I don't know
about this monk, but my firstreaction to that is that that
fear is coming from attachment.
Right To be worried aboutsomething like that, which I
don't yeah, i don't want that tobe a criticism, but that
doesn't really sound like aBuddhist thought for me, that I
(33:17):
should actually be free of worry.
I shouldn't create any kind ofanxiety, you know?
oh, i'm so anyway.
So that's the thought thatcomes to mind.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Well, I don't think we could go too much farther
than that, do we?
That's yeah, we've covered itWell in our exploration of
artificial spirituality what aname that is and examples of AI
applications in the realm ofspirituality, it becomes evident
(33:50):
that, while these technologiescan simulate certain aspects of
spiritual practices and guidance, they can never fully replicate
the authenticity and depth ofgenuine spirituality.
True spirituality is a deeplypersonal and meaningful
experience that transcendsalgorithms and computational
processes.
(34:10):
It encompasses the complexinterplay of emotions and
tuition and the human connectionto something greater than
ourselves.
It involves profound moments ofself-discovery, transformation
and a quest for meaning andpurpose in life For some people.
At its core, spirituality isabout the exploration of our
(34:31):
inner selves, our relationshipswith others and our connection
to the universe.
It goes beyond logical analysisand measurable data, delving
into the realms of mystery,faith and transcendence.
It is an experiential journeythat cannot be quantified or
fully understood by machinesThat.
I believe AI might be able tomimic certain aspects of
(34:54):
spirituality, providing guidancerituals or even generating
spiritual writings.
However, it lacks the capacityfor genuine consciousness so far
, empathy so far and tuitionthat are essential to the human
spiritual experience.
It cannot fully comprehend thedepth of human emotions, the
complexity of our desires andfears, or the profound moments
(35:16):
of spiritual awakening andtranscendence That you just have
to feel.
Moreover, spirituality isintrinsically tied to human
relationships and community.
It thrives on the sharedexperiences, wisdom and support
that we find in spiritualcommunities and traditions.
While AI can simulateinteractions and provide
(35:37):
information, it cannot replacethe power of human connection,
compassion and the collectivewisdom passed through from
generation to generation.
As we navigate the advancementsof AI, it is potential
applications in various aspectsof our lives, including
spirituality.
It is crucial to remember thatthe essence of spiritual lies
(35:57):
and our authentic humanexperiences.
It is deeply personal andsubjective journey that cannot
be replicated or replaced bymachines.
There you have, it Sounds goodThat summarizes it all.
I can't wait to look back atthis in 10 years probably five
(36:19):
years, or even two years at therate, of artificial intelligence
.
I'll probably read an articleor two about this when it comes
to specifically therapy andartificial intelligence.
but there is certainly aspiritual connection that we
make with another human being,but we certainly do find ways to
(36:39):
connect with computers andelectronics too.
So nothing might take away allgood or all bad.
That's a big takeaway for me.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, this provokes for me an attitude of curiosity.
I'm just curious, not worry,not concerned, not anxious, but
curious.
It's very puzzling.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Embracing the mystery .
huh Yeah, and the change.
Well, thanks everyone forlistening.
Can't wait to.
This will be on YouTube and allthe podcast platforms that
you're listening to now, butplease check out our Facebook
page and our other social medialinks in the notes below.
(37:28):
And, once again, please like,comment, share.
It would mean a lot, too.
if you've listened to the atleast three episodes, leave a
comment like.
That's our handshake agreementif you found this valuable.
My name is Luke DeBoy.
This is Zah.
We'll see you next time.
Thanks so much.
Thank you.
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