July 15, 2024 • 58 mins
--We feel now is the time to introduce our new (FREE) subscription service, "The Collective", offering additional resources to elevate the growth of your mental health and wellness recovery. Tune in for enriching content designed to support you every step of the way. Click the link to subscribe. --
https://www.recoverycollectivemd.com/news-events
What if you could gain control over your cravings, wouldn't this transform your journey to sobriety? Join us as we, Luke DeBoy, a therapist, and Zaw Maw, a seasoned Buddhist practitioner, share practical strategies to manage the intense urges that often accompany recovery. Together, we offer a blend of therapeutic and Buddhist perspectives to help you recognize, understand, and ultimately reduce the power of your cravings. Learn about the three R's and discover how mindfulness can be a powerful tool in distinguishing between being the craving and being with the craving.
In this episode, we discuss how cravings go beyond substances, affecting behaviors and foods, and their significant impact on your moods. Discover the Buddhist concept of craving (tanha) as a source of suffering and how this ancient wisdom, combined with behavioral therapy, can help you break the cycle of addiction. We also share practical tips how to navigate social situations during recovery. Our aim is to equip you with tools that can make a real difference in your journey to healing and growth.
Season two comes to a close at the end of July as we'll be working on our E-Course. We'll take the month of August off and see you again in September.
Visit our website!
Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Zaw Maw — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Luke DeBoy — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
New Episodes are released every other Monday.
Thanks for listening, and please subscribe/comment/review/follow/like; if you think others would benefit from the podcast episode, share with others, as COLLECTIVELY, we can find solutions to all things health and wellness.
The episodes contain content, including information provided by guests, intended for perspective, informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, legal, or other advice. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you
Recovery CollectiveAllow Us To Bridge The Gap Between Therapy and Recovery. Therapy, Acupuncture, Coaching & More!
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Sign up for our Newsletter
https://www.recoverycollectivemd.com/newsletter
Say Thank You, Leave a Review for the Recovery Collective
Google Review
YouTube Channel
Watch/Listen
Our Website
Rec
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to A Therapist, A Buddhist to you,
brought to you by the RecoveryCollective in Annapolis,
Maryland.
At the Recovery Collective, weoffer hope and support on your
journey to healing and growth.
I'm your co-host and therapist,Luke Dubois, and I'm joined by
my co-host, the everenlightening and always
surprising Zalma.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hey Luke, hey Zalma.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Cravings.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Cravings are something we all all of us
experience, and yes, that evenincludes the monk who has let go
of all the personal belongings.
I'm not lying.
That's the truth.
The second truth, if I'm notmistaken, it's a joke, right?
Whether you're battlingaddiction or just curious about
managing those irresistibleurges, this episode is for you.
(00:45):
We'll explore powerfulstrategies to help you navigate
and overcome cravings.
So stick around, because you'reabout to hear something that
really could be life-changing.
Cravings, whether it's forsubstances, a behavior or even
certain foods, they can reallybe intense, overwhelming and
sometimes feel impossible tocontrol.
They can really be intense,overwhelming and sometimes feel
(01:06):
impossible to control.
I can relate.
Last night's all there's, thatHaagen-Dazs coconut pineapple
ice cream.
That's summer and dirty.
That was a craving.
But what if I told you thereare strategies to manage and
overcome these cravings.
There's techniques that notonly help you recognize and
understand them, but also reducethe power over you and offer
(01:27):
practical steps to take whenthey become too strong.
So in today's episode, we'regoing to explore these
strategies in depth.
We'll uncover the secrets toeffectively manage cravings,
drawn from both therapeutic andBuddhist perspectives, whether
you're supporting someone who is, or you're simply interested in
better understanding this humanbehavior and mental health.
(01:47):
We're providing ways to gaincontrol over these so vicious
impulses.
So be sure to remember to likeand subscribe to our podcast and
stay updated on future episodes.
And if you find our discussionhelpful, please share them with
others who might benefit.
That's really our division andengineer.
Your support helps us continuebringing valuable content to you
(02:07):
and others.
And if you've been with us formultiple episodes and want to
show your gratitude in the formof giving us a call for your
cash, please do so through thelink in our episode notes.
We'd be very happy and if youwant, we can give you a
shout-out.
And don't forget, season 2 ofour podcast will be wrapping up
in July.
So after this one, we've gotone more episode in July and
(02:30):
we'll be taking a break inAugust to work on some exciting
e-courses that we know you'llfind beneficial.
We'll be back in September withseason three, packed with more
insightful topics anddiscussions.
So it's all this week.
This week, it's the week we getto introduce our brand new
subscription to our listenershere and our other platforms.
We call it the Collective.
(02:51):
It's backed with valuableinsights, practical tips and
exclusive updates designed toelevate your mental health and
support your wellness recovery,and it's something that we
certainly talked about for awhile.
We want to bring a lot of valuein everything, and this
(03:11):
subscription will be free, andit's really important us to
bring bring this to you guys,and our mission is to offer
expert advice and actionablestrategies that continually help
you people in your lives.
So we'll have a recurringsegment in the subscription.
You'll explore how to align yourself-care practices with the
natural cycles of life andenhance your well-being with
practical, season-specificadvice.
(03:32):
One of the great practitionersof the Recovery Collective,
jennifer.
She will guide you fromwinter's introspective calm to
summer's vibrant energy, helpingyou nurture yourself through
the changing seasons.
So that would be really cool,right?
You'll also gain access tounique resources, the latest
updates on our services,workshops, e-courses you know
(03:56):
short-term, long-term goals wemight have some e-books or other
books to offer, as well asother community events.
Our engaging content includesZal with his Buddhist inspired
mindfulness exercises, and we'lloffer other holistic tips and
inspiring real-life stories.
Plus, if you sign up, you'llenjoy special offers and
(04:18):
exclusive discounts availableonly to our subscribers.
So click the link in theepisode notes and you'll get an
email from us, and we will notspam you to death, that's for
sure.
We'll make it valuable.
So check us out.
It'll be in the episode notes.
You can also check our websiteout.
It'll be pretty readilyavailable there.
It will be worked through live,so all right, so let's get into
(04:41):
it.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Sounds good, so let's get into.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
It Sounds good.
Cravings it's time for us to goto the recovery and addiction
topic.
I want to talk about reducingcravings.
You know they can happen at abunch of different times with
people's journeys, especiallyearly on, and there can be
trigger periods for people.
But I like to be talking aboutit in some of the other episodes
that we've talked about,whether it's the physiological
(05:06):
aspects of addiction, whetherit's the perfect equation of
recovery we've talked about thisone's getting down to the
nitty-gritty that peoplestruggle with, and that's that's
great news yeah, where do webegin?
well, we all go yeah maybe.
Uh, for you and I they're notnecessarily drug and alcohol
(05:28):
based like they used to be.
I I don't think I've had afull-blown craving in years.
I certainly had fleetingthoughts, I think for the first
five, six, seven, eight years ofmy sobriety.
As soon as spring went intosummer and I hit that that like
83, 85 degree day, for somereason I thought about a beer.
(05:48):
Hopefully it came in as fast asit came out and it went out as
fast as it came in.
But cravings can still happenfor people.
It doesn't mean that I'm notsusceptible to them, because I
can be.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah, I like that framing of reducing craving.
Especially for somebody who'snew, getting rid of craving
completely probably soundsimpossible.
I think it is impossible to be0%, completely gone.
But I guess my understanding ofcraving or maybe you can expand
more on that too of like I needto have it, like the need, like
(06:23):
a desperate desire that almostI'm going to die if I don't get
it.
You know, I don't know if thatsounds too extreme, but that's
my understanding of what cravingmeans.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
And I think for a percentage of our listeners that
are in some form of recovery orpost-taps.
How can I get rid of somethingif I'm powerless over it?
I can't.
I'm powerless over drugs andalcohol and my life has become
unmanageable.
You see so frequently.
Well, I don't know if I'll everget rid of it, but can I reduce
it?
So let's break the cravingsdown into three categories to
(06:57):
help us cope and deal with them.
I call it the three R's.
The first one is recognize, thesecond one reduce and the third
one is relocate.
Let's break each one down.
So the first R, I say recognize.
You can self-diagnose.
How many conditions ordisorders can you self-diagnose
(07:19):
yourself?
So if we're having a craving,if we identify it and
acknowledge it, if all of asudden, that first 83, 84 degree
day, of course you're selling alawnmower I want a lawnmower
and all of a sudden, man, Ialways used to drink.
Or a holiday with family, man,I always used to sneak down
smoke crack, whatever it is.
(07:39):
And if you have that cravingyou can self-diagnose and
recognize it.
You can go shit.
I got a craving.
Just that realization and thatrecognizing that diagnosing
could potentially make thedifference from I've got a
craving impulse, react.
I've got a craving obsess andreact with using or obsessing
(08:04):
about it.
If you can self-diagnose andcall it out, that might just
might be the difference betweenthird decision, second thought,
third thought and bad decision.
I don't care what any otherthoughts are on this.
Obsessing about using Do youagree with that?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah.
So in a way, you're askingyourself identify.
Am I in the state of craving,or call somebody something like
that to kind of self-identify?
What are the signs?
Am I in that mode?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
If I can identify it, I might be able to change it.
Often, as you as a coach and meas a therapist, we help people
identify what they're actuallythinking and feeling.
If you can identify it, youmight be able to do something
different with it or about it.
But if we can can identify it,you might be able to do
something different with it orabout it.
But if we can't identify it, itcan be really hard to know what
to do differently.
So it breaks us out of thatimpulsive, compulsive,
(08:53):
reactionary, full-body,full-mind experience of cravings
to shit happened again.
I got a craving.
That little slowdown, littlelike speed bump or stop can be
all the difference betweenobsession and oh, that gives me
(09:14):
enough space for a second andcraving to react to craving to
suffer a third fall.
That's kind of what we'retalking about.
So recognize it.
I often see people in my groupsor my clients that either want
to minimize or stop their use.
They almost cuss at it.
(09:34):
It becomes this thing thatisn't necessarily their mind or
their obsession.
It's like you, asshole, You'recraving again.
Talking to the ism or the, theobsession, often you know,
behaviorally you would seepeople put like a rubber band or
like a bracelet on the likewith cigarettes, and then
(09:56):
they're craving what they do.
They snapped it, theyidentified it and then they
would reduce it by like oh I, Iwould feel a snap, a little
pinch, as opposed to need athought with more negative
thoughts.
So recognizing it can be a hugedifference.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, and that can be a practice of mindfulness too,
because there's a big differencebetween being the thought and
being with the thought.
So, like when I'm the craving,I am the craving and there's no,
nothing outside of it.
I won't even recognize that I'min that mode.
But when I'm with the thought,able to observe it, you know,
yeah, you kind of are able toseparate it from the thought and
(10:35):
then see that, okay, you know,this is I recognize what's going
on and what comes with acraving, often, especially those
intense cravings, not thisfleeting thoughts that may
happen in my sobriety today.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
It's intense, it's physical, it's emotional cues,
it's salivating, it's heartpalpitations, it's you hear
people sing, they can taste it,it's the sweating, it's racing
thoughts, it's everything thatis associated that we can be
aware and mindful of Recognizing.
I'm in it, I am full-blowncraving.
(11:10):
Diagnosing it.
Okay, let's stop, drop and rollthe whole crap of just saying
no, I'm not telling you to sayno, I'm telling you to identify
it.
If you can identify it, thenyou might have a second, third,
fourth thought that you could dosomething.
We say it so much.
We are powerless over thatfirst thought.
We are powerless over thatfirst feeling, that first
(11:32):
emotion.
I say, in some ways, we arepowerless over cravings.
Now, one thing I really enjoyis the anatomy of a craving and
that relapse.
So, yes, do cravings come outof the blue Sure and that
relapse?
Yes, do cravings come out ofthe blue Sure?
But I think a bunch of otherthings that we do or put
ourselves in that can better setup a craving or set up a
(11:54):
relapse.
We'd like to reduce those whichwe'll talk about really soon.
I do want to ask you a question.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Go for it, because what you're saying is related to
meditation in a way too,because mind has its own
mechanism and then it has itsown programming.
So there's always cause andeffect.
But then for the mind of anaddiction it's even more intense
.
There's like a wiring that'salready going on.
So with meditation we're ableto catch the thought before it
(12:22):
gets too late.
Sometimes, when my mind is nottrained, I find myself being
angry.
I don't even know how I gothere.
But then, through practice ofmeditation, you're like oh, that
was a thought that I was havingabout the future or the past,
and then it creates thatmechanism.
So I wanted to ask you aboutthe.
Maybe it's a little bit of badtracking, but is there a
difference between trigger andthe craving?
(12:42):
Is it possible to catch thetrigger before it turns into
craving?
Is it something that precedescraving?
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Absolutely, absolutely, and not to overwhelm
people.
It's kind of a chicken and theegg.
A lot of times somethingtriggers it, but some people
can't fathom that becausethey're so television and they
don't do that.
So, to your point, duringmindfulness and awareness
(13:09):
strategies I probably had 10%,probably being generous, but 5%
of people.
When I was in a residentialsetting journal, when you have a
craving, hey, you're walkingaround as doling, keep that
thing with you or your fiveminutes from it, go get it and
write down what happened duringand five minutes before and when
(13:30):
.
The people that do that, theyidentify some common patterns,
whether it's the physical place,whether it's their emotions
that are triggering the craving,or social situation that is
triggering the cravings.
But we're often not that awareof present things so yeah, I'd
(13:52):
say more times than not whichare things that absolutely
trigger a craving for sure.
So part of what we'd like to doand we can do that through
Buddhism and before we get toreducing these things, can you
tell us a little bit more about?
What does Buddhism say aboutrecognizing cravings?
(14:13):
I kind of made a little punsilly joke about it in the intro
.
So tell us about cravings andmoods.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
So that's the second noble truth, after Dukkha is the
first noble truth, and then thesecond noble truth is the
muddhya, which has to do withthe repetitive craving which is
the driving force behind thesuffering.
But the term that is used isdana, which is kind of like some
kind of attachment or almostlike an unquenchable thirst.
(14:42):
Yeah, so that's a Buddhistunderstanding of craving, which
is some form of attachment orexpectation.
There's a wanting.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
We can break that down as a trigger.
Well, for substances, or evenfood.
Why do we often crave sweets,or they often say sugars, like
an addiction?
Why do we crave a mind-openingsubstance like alcohol or a
mind-opening substance likeother drugs?
(15:12):
Well, they're trying to findsomething.
What do you mean by that from?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
your Buddhist perspective.
So the mind and the body in itsnatural state craves pleasure
and hates pain.
So the mechanism and the bodyin this natural state craves
pleasure and hates pain.
So the mechanism driving thecraving is that, you know,
avoiding pain and then wantingpleasure, like it's either or.
So that to me is like thedriving force, not just like
(15:39):
with addiction but just likelife in general, that I want to
avoid pain and I'm going tocrave towards no pain, and if
there is pleasure I want tocrave to that pleasure because
that's going to make me feelgood.
So it's almost like a binaryway of programming of the mind
and the body.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Do you see that as a human need to either avoid pain
or to gain pleasure?
And the trick is to do that ina healthy way.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
I don't know.
I mean in a true Buddhist sense.
It's transcending that,uprooting that.
It's not either or but.
It's transcending but livinglife in general.
I think we're always in thatmode.
It's nothing personal.
It's not my fault to wantsomething pleasurable and to
(16:28):
avoid pain.
It's just how I'm structured.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yeah, I think, with my behavioral and therapist lens
, that it can be instinctual todo one of those things.
And addiction can do both insome ways.
And addiction can do both insome ways.
It can numb the hour, it canavoid unwanted pain, while it
virtually gives you a form ofpleasure.
And we say, with progressioncomes addiction.
(16:53):
Okay, I know I might not begetting the pleasure that I want
, but at least I'm avoiding thediscomfort or the pain that I
have.
And that requires the brain tobe interested.
Let's talk about the second arc.
So they recognize it,self-diagnose, realize it.
That can be the differencebetween feeding the energy of
craving and obsession toallowing that second thought on
(17:17):
it.
So what are the second or thirdthoughts that would be
beneficial?
Well, how do I reach son of abitch, that guy I crave?
What do I reach son of a bitch,that guy I'm craving?
What do I do now?
We want to reduce it.
So we want to induce theintensity, the frequency, or
just stopping where it's going.
That's ideal, right?
(17:38):
12 steps, an obsession of themind, allergy of the body.
We would like to lose thisobsession.
That's important.
Smart recovery talks aboutmaking right decisions to not
condition ourself to fuel thisand to minimize, trying to,
(17:59):
typically behaviorally to not gointo that craving.
Let's talk about it.
It typically lasts a finiteamount of time.
It's not forever Often.
Cravings typically can last oneaverage 10 to 15 minutes.
This is not just true for drugsand alcohol.
(18:21):
But I think about myself.
I crave a sweet after everylunch or dinner and it's usually
the most intense for me rightafter I eat that meal.
And if I have the I'll saywillpower to not feed that sugar
sweet craving, after this 10,15 minutes, all of a sudden it
(18:41):
drops off a cliff and I don'thave that tremendous of desire
Usually.
Now here's the thing withself-sufficiency improvements
they can last 10 or 15 minutes.
Now there's probably apercentage of our listeners
that's going Bullshit, luke.
Not my experience and here'swhat I've noticed.
(19:03):
The best and worst thing happensto people who just weigh out
that substance grade.
Nothing happens.
But what often happens, they'llcome back a little bit more
intense, a little bit longer andthen they'll go away.
(19:24):
And then the best and worstthing happens.
Best thing is you didn't use,but the worst thing is it'll
creep up a little more intenseand a little bit longer and if
people hold on to that craving.
By themselves.
They get stronger and longerand people go and people feel
(19:45):
powerless and people feel likethey can't break this and then
the choice decision then doesn'tseem like a choice.
It's no I have to use.
At a really physiological levelit's saying I need this to
survive.
It's really what bringsconvincing itself with the
pleasure center.
So that's a nice.
To reduce it.
I think we should hit themeditation thing right off the
(20:08):
bat.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
yeah, that sounds good how, so how, how?
Speaker 1 (20:13):
some people can't fathom meditating, let let alone
sitting still when you have acraving.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
So you were rebuttal for that before moving on to
that, I think there were a lotof uh insights that you were
sharing earlier and I want tokind of unpack more about that
because, um, this is not the uhexact analogy, but what you were
saying kind of reminds me of myexperience of buddhist fasting
in my buddhist monkhood days.
(20:38):
So, like not eating past noon,the craving comes like I need to
eat, you know, because I'm usedto eating three meals a day.
So, like stopping eating,there's that craving.
But then, like you were saying,when I recognize that, wait,
why am I craving?
Because I haven't eaten, butthen am I going to die.
It's almost like aself-diagnosis If I don't eat
(21:02):
tonight, if I just wait until inthe morning, which is what I'm
supposed to do, am I going tosurvive?
And then, when I see that truth, I drink water and it gets
better and I kind of reduce theinteractions.
Or like a smell, or in thedining room you know things like
that or people eating.
When I remove myself from that,it reduces, you know.
So it makes me think about thattoo.
So, in a way, to relate thatwith meditation, it's like
(21:25):
meditating, not likeconcentration and like
distracting, but it's more likeleaning more into it, that I
want to understand why I'mexperiencing this, you know, and
then sitting with it and thenletting your mind talk to you.
That's what I usually do inthat fasting mode.
It becomes like an opportunityfor me to observe the mind and
(21:47):
meditate.
And the other point probably isalso I don't know how to talk
about it in a very specificstructural way, but people in
long-term sobriety knows thatwhen we are craving it's not
just like waiting it out,because if I keep waiting it out
it's going to come back, but inthat mode it's a symptom, right
(22:08):
?
There's something that needs tobe addressed and I have that
window and that needs to beaddressed through a healthy mean
.
Otherwise it's like a heartsurgery with an open wound and
I'm not doing anything about it.
So there has to be a treatmentof some kind with that window,
otherwise the craving is goingto kick in and I'm going to go
back to the original behavior.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
So when you're you as a recovery coach and someone
early in recovery, what are somethings you're telling them, as
you gave the example of thatmindfulness, being with that
craving, how do you help themthrough that when maybe in the
(22:54):
past, as soon as they thoughtabout it, it was just go and it
was no think?
How do you help them throughthat stage, which is so foreign,
right, For a lot of people?
They're leaving treatment forjust being conditioned to
craving use and you're settingthem up to be with that craving.
(23:15):
Explain the recovery coachingto you.
How does that work?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, it's difficult, but it's definitely a
collective effort Because it'snot like a pre-packaged
activities that can be done.
But there's an aspect ofself-discovery too.
You know so that craving, thatdiscomfort, is an expression of
a need that is not being met andthat needs to be addressed.
You know so for me, like I havea long history of finding my
(23:42):
own needs, like through creativeoutlet, you know, playing
guitar or going out for a run,like there is a physical,
emotional or spiritual need thatneeds to be addressed, so kind
of like sitting with it.
Uh, because you know,essentially, to simplify
everything, like in that momentI just want to be happy and I
would do everything to be happy,and one of the things that I do
know that makes me happy isdrinking or using, you know so
(24:05):
that's why I go back to it.
So finding other channelsthat's going to make me feel
satisfied, content and happy islike how we navigate.
So are you going to go out fora walk or are you going to call
somebody that you care about orshow up to work, Like some kind
of a meaningful way of you knowdealing with it will be the
(24:26):
long-term sustainable way ofdealing with it will be a
long-term, sustainable way ofdealing with it.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, if someone has the ability to be in that
mindfulness, cognitive, presentstage with that craving, well,
if they're with it for 10-15minutes and not reacting, then
they're also mindful, presentand cognitive with the
dissipation of that craving 15minutes and not reacting.
And they're also mindful,present and kind of with the
(24:50):
dissipation of that craving.
And if they're not, they callyou or they have their other
support or their other copingskills to help them through it.
Right, because it's not justthe whole shit I got craving
that you're mindful through.
It's through the full range ofexperiencing that Gosh, it's
through the full range ofexperiencing that Gosh.
It's just a familiar knuckle,it's from good, I got this,
(25:14):
shove it down.
It's not that I hear yousharing, it's the mindfulness
practice of that know, truth andeverything that comes with it.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah, and it's also very self-esteem boosting in a
way.
You know like I think peoplehave experienced that you don't
do it and then you're just likeso empowered by the fact that I
did it and I feel really goodand then that builds up over
time, right the western culture.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
If you can't self-diagnose and go oh, I'm
having this right now.
It's a bit like measuring theparameter.
If you can self-diagnose, ifyou can have that second thought
, third thought come in motion,then this mindfulness exercise
might be more useful.
If you can self-diagnose, if youcan pause, if you're not always
(26:07):
reactionary in that level ofearly stage powerlessness.
Powerlessness evolves andchanges but becomes a different
level of powerlessness that wecan sit with and relate to.
So I think that's a goodexample for cravings.
If it's just no, I can't fathom.
I just go and then maybemindfulness is not the best
(26:29):
early stage but yeah I'll add toit.
And there's different forms ofmeditation for cravings.
One is, you know, breathing incourage and higher power,
exhaling fear, exhalingaddiction, exhaling that craving
out through your, your mind'seye, andaling it.
There's no thought for theexhale.
There's different techniquesthat we can really benefit to be
(26:54):
present, hold on to thatcraving.
It's just about two deepbreathing exercises.
Another one is physicalexercise.
If someone's in the full-blowncraving, do 20-30 jumping jacks,
20-30 push-ups, sit-ups.
If you're getting your heartrate up, your blood pumping,
you're releasing some bit ofdopamine and neurotransfers.
(27:18):
Right and just.
I've had people that were comingoff of methadone and some
blackstone and not onlywithdrawal cravings.
I told them to run around thehouse, do very jumping jacks,
scream off the top of your lungs, get that heart rate up and
then release those goodneurotransmitters.
You're releasing something andit's not the desire to or the
(27:43):
quote, unquote need to use, butyou're reducing by increasing
your body and your heart rateand things like that.
So that can be very beneficial.
Any form of physical exercise.
You've got some history withrunning.
You know running that's a soundbeast for a lot of people it
can be cathartic.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
What do you take it?
Bill?
That was very helpful for me,although it was not sustainable
because I was just doing it bymyself.
But I still did run a lot inrecovery too after joining
recovery community.
But it does help because thatgrounding experience is also
what I'm looking for in thatmode of craving, because that
craving mode is like there's nosense of safety, support,
(28:27):
grounding experience, butanything that is repetitive
gives me the structure and thecomfort.
So, like some simple meditation, like you were talking about
the visualization of breathingin courage, you know breathing
out fear or craving, but alsoany kind of repetition, you know
.
I know in 12-step communitiesthat surrender prayer is used a
lot.
Some people just repeat thatover and over again, either out
(28:49):
loud or in the mind.
There's something verycomforting about the repetition,
and that's the same effect withthe running too.
Running is so repetitive butalso very grounding.
That's my experience.
It really helps.
Also, it's very physicallyinvolving, so it releases some
of the tension too.
But it's also important not tooverdo it, because I've overdone
(29:11):
it and it did have adverse oropposite effects.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
yeah, I overdid it yeah, but you do a lot of things
quite, quite addictive, right?
Um, we talked about triggers,so I'll bring this one up.
There's an acronym called halt.
It stands for hungry, angry,lonely, tired, and I think if
you have just one of thosethings, but especially two,
(29:39):
three of those things active atone time, could be the
conditions for cravings.
So if that triggers a craving,well, let's reduce these things.
So, yes, it can be hungry.
There's snackers commercials,someone's hangry and moaning and
groaning and they say youhaven't eaten in a while.
Grab a snacker.
(29:59):
As soon as they eat, they're nolonger hangry.
So I'm not just saying it'shungry, but it's also
nutritionally.
What you put in your body cangreatly affect your levels.
So sugar for example, ironically, snickers is not the healthiest
food.
(30:20):
But what does it do?
It can create a spike in bloodsugar and, just like when you
eat high-sugar foods, you get aboost, an increase, and then
what happens?
You eventually get a crash.
Well, when you use substances,you get a boost, an increase,
and then what happens?
You get a crash.
So that is very we call it likecross-sensitization.
(30:43):
If you have excessive sugar, itcan lead to sensitivity to
substances because you'rereleasing that dopamine and lots
of sugar and might haveheightened cravings because of
that.
And when you eat certain foods,often unhealthy, it stimulates
the reward system in the brain,decreasing dopamine levels, just
like drugs do.
(31:04):
So this can create a similarcycle of craving reward.
When I was at a similar cycle ofcraving reward, I worked at a
treatment facility.
We did a morning meeting at 8am and everyone already ate
their breakfasts and stuff andthey come into the room and
we're talking about the recoverygoal for the day and seeing how
they feel physically, mentallyand spiritually and
(31:24):
recovery-related goal.
It's an intention andfoundation.
One day early on I'm lookingaround the room of 20-plus
people and half of them areeating lollipops at 7 and 8 am
and I'm going.
What are we doing as a facility?
We're allowing these people tostart their day with a dopamine
(31:47):
hit that they're craving.
Obviously, A lot of these peoplehad to use in the morning to
get a boost, and now thatsubstance is gone.
So now do we allow them to havethree, four, five, six, seven,
eight cups of coffee and havelollipops and sugar?
No, we didn't set up theconditions for that, but that is
(32:08):
kind of thatcross-sensitization of coffee
and have lollipops and sugar?
No, we didn't set up theconditions for that, but that is
kind of thatcross-sensitization.
So what we put in our body cancertainly have a big effect.
There's hormonal effects thatcan just wrap the fluctuations
and blood sugar levels.
So it's a huge piece.
So that's the whole thing.
Or nutrition, let's go to Ttired man, we're tired man,
(32:29):
we're tired.
What happens I?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
don't make good decisions when I'm tired.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
My ability to function is not there.
Literally my prefrontal cortexis impaired.
When I'm tired, it makes itharder to resist cravings.
It increases the likelihood ofbeing impulsive.
It increases my likelihood todeal with emotions like anger.
So for a lot of people usingsubstances, they passed out and
came to.
(32:55):
One of the reasons why relapseis often high for people
greetings are high is becausesleep is shit.
When you're in detox andwithdrawal Sleep is shit and
you're not getting that seven tonine hours and withdrawal Sleep
is shedding.
You're not getting that sevento nine hours, really eight-ish
hours of that, four to sixcycles of rapid eye movement and
slow-loop cycle.
It's just heightened stress,emotional instability, stress,
(33:19):
hormones revealing well,emotional radiation is not there
and I just don't want to feelthis.
I should have done a coffee anda lot of sweets or all of a
sudden you're creating to meinitially yeah, it really is a.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
It's really, it's a full circle, as you're
describing, because, um, youknow, just stopping is not the
answer.
If that's the case, it's like awell-rounded approach.
Right, because I need ahealthier lifestyle, because if
I just don't use and drink andthen still living a pretty, um,
poor lifestyle, you know I don'thave a good shot at it because
(33:56):
things are still out of order,you know.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
So, yeah, I got the little callous to be in in the
field for 15 years plus ofpeople that were withdrawn.
We can certainly give you somecomfort meds You're still going
to be uncomfortable, but we cangive you some comfort meds and
help your vitals as much as wecan.
And the people that I reallyfelt for, even if we gave them
(34:22):
sleeping medications, theydidn't sleep a wink for not just
days, weeks.
You go out of your mind whenyou can't sleep right, your mood
swings, that your ability, likeyou're miserable.
You want to self medicate.
You can't regulate youremotions.
You feel like you're losingmuch.
I had a soft spot for that forthem.
(34:46):
If you can get through this,your body and brain will
eventually shut down.
Your body will crash and getsleep eventually.
But it often takes days evenlonger for people for that sleep
hygiene and for the brain to go.
I need that REM now.
You're not cutting this off andtelling me just to pass out and
(35:08):
come to.
So the people that got throughthose two weeks finally got six
hours on day 16 or 17 and theygot some coping skills and they
tried to not sleep during theday and try to do sleep hygiene,
go to sleep every night and alot of them didn't go to sleep
until 5.
55 and then woke up at six andit was like it's sleep hygiene.
(35:32):
It's tough but it's soimportant there's some good.
Um gosh, it'll be cool to get asleep hygiene person on.
That could be a whole episodein itself.
But pulse right hungry, angry,emotional discomfort, that
isolation.
So do not isolate yourself.
You can reduce screens that way, and tired, that's a tough one.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yeah, this is probably too much of a
simplification, but I likesimple things.
But, as you're describing, asI'm listening, the thought that
comes to mind is like therecovery process is pretty much
simply transitioning from aself-abuse lifestyle to
self-care lifestyle, becausewhen we're actively using that's
a form of harming myself andjust by stopping doesn't do it.
(36:17):
I have to replace that withself-care.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Self-care and let others care will fess them for
us.
And that takes us to, I think,probably one of the most
important reducing.
Let me talk to that.
And you have a craving, talkabout it.
Don't deal with it on your own,by yourself, because, like we
said at the beginning, the bestand worst thing can happen.
(36:43):
You can sit with that cravingfor 5-10 minutes and nothing
happens.
But you can tell yourself I gotthrough it, I didn't need to
reduce this craving, I couldjust swallow it, hold on and I
don't need anyone for that.
That is literally the oppositeof step one, isn't it?
If you're saying, okay, itcomes back up stronger and
(37:06):
longer, and if I don't share it,when you share it, it loses
some of its power.
Somehow.
That it's not you and thiscreating alone, somehow, just
sharing it helps reduce it, itbecomes less powerful.
But if you do it by yourself.
You are managing and you'retelling that craving in yourself
(37:28):
and that brain wiring systemthat I'm not powerless over this
and I can manage this myself.
It is literally the opposite ofstep one.
I've got someone in my mindthat I'm working with right now.
And it took them it seemed likeweeks and weeks and weeks to
finally I'll say courage, talkto other people about their
(37:52):
cravings.
And then, of course, to talk tothe sponsor and she said good,
I'm glad you told me so, if ithappens again, Call me.
So.
As soon as this person left andwas in the car, guess what they
got the craving, Guess whatthey struggled to do.
I don't want to bother her, Ijust talked with her.
So I don't think I can.
(38:12):
I should be able to do thismyself.
She struggled with the craving.
Eventually she goes what am Idoing?
That's what I always try toconvince myself not to do, and
then she's done full.
It's been easier for her.
And she used the word easier, itlost its power.
I didn't have to do it bymyself.
She wasn't filled with shameand guilt.
(38:34):
It's let others help us.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
I think that's a big reduction, yeah definitely
that's a big part of the processof recovery.
Self-care is allowing others tohelp us.
Help me, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
We've got a couple more.
This is endless, but I'll giveyou a couple more.
Spending time in nature.
The benefit of green spaces,water, mountains.
Nature just has this, andenergetic as well.
Just calling the fact that canlower our cortisol.
We should reduce our stresslevels.
(39:08):
It can reduce that.
Nature encourages mindfulnessof being present.
It can help us recognize and bemore in touch with ourself, and
that is a powerful thing, don'tyou?
Speaker 2 (39:20):
think, yeah, there is a sense of interconnectedness.
When I'm in nature, I mean inthe 12-step, some people treat
higher power that way.
You know nature there's a senseof connection, that, oh, I'm
part of this bigger tapestry oflife and I'm being taken care of
by this same force that'smaking the plant grow.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
You know, you're all connected tapped into the
powerful part of that.
Interconnectedness is a verypowerful actually higher kind of
thing in uh theravada ormindfulness, traditional
buddhist mindfulness practicetoo.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
The first foundation is a foundation, mindfulness of
the body.
There are some sections thatare about the four elements,
meditation.
So that can be a really fittingmeditation to when you're in
nature, when you start becomingmindful of these elements in the
body that you can see in naturetoo.
You know the solidity,earthiness and then the water.
(40:14):
So there is that connectionbetween my physical body and
then the nature, and it can bevery soothing and grounding and
healing too.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
It's beautiful.
Other ways to reduce I call ittech detox reduce screen time,
social media and electronics.
It's amazing how the most shortattention ADD person can be on
a screen for hours, because whatdoes it do?
(40:42):
It's often a blue screen.
Blue screen helps us with theconditions for paying attention
and makes our eyes be moreattentive to that.
And to pay attention to ascreen we need to use our energy
to do so and that's thedopamine release.
(41:03):
So there's a reason why peoplecan scroll and jump from social
media.
People can watch, you know, 5to 30-second clips for hours and
hours because it's dopamine,dopamine, dopamine and it's just
constant and that can justdrain us and all of a sudden, no
matter how tired you are,somehow it's two or three in the
(41:26):
morning or it's midnight to getoff the screens.
That can help you physically,emotionally and allow your brain
to be more present.
Do the things that meditation,mindfulness is I.
It's like the best medicine forthe brain and our consciousness
.
Any jump out to you for ways toreduce.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Yeah, so I'd like to kind of piggyback on that too.
A good way that I do is toreplace tech with physical books
by slowing things down.
It really helps.
When I physically read a book,it's just like a completely
different feeling than readingit on the computer or on social
media or on the internet.
So physically flipping the page, taking my time or writing in
(42:10):
the journal, there's that senseof groundedness too in that.
And then the other things too.
I don't know if this is morepersonal and related to my own
story, but sometimes to calm mymind in my earlier days there
are just so many songs that I'vememorized to sing and write and
play.
So I just write those songsdown physically very, very
(42:32):
slowly out of my own memory tojust calm the mind, write down
the lyrics, infusing with themeanings of those lyrics, and
then slowing it down.
It always helps to slow downthe thought process there's a
thousand more.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
There's a thousand more.
Let's talk to the third R.
Third R relocate.
If you're in the place whereyou have creating, it won't go
away.
You've tried some inductiontechniques calling someone ship
NA chip or NAT tag or NA chip orwhatever it might be, and it
(43:08):
doesn't reduce the craving.
Get out of there, removeyourself.
There's a saying if you hang outin a barbershop, you'll
eventually get your haircut.
If you're hanging out with oldusing buddies or people that are
dambling or playing poker nightand they're all drinking and
you're not, or if you're at afamily wedding and it's that
(43:30):
time of night where everyone'ssitting in that spot and they're
all pass-buzzing and you'reseeing and it's almost like this
weird wavelength movie andthey're all in the exact same
spot and it's almost slow motionfor you and you don't like it.
You can go.
If it's a holiday season andit's holidays and you're with
your family, please don't go,and they're all wasted or drunk.
(43:53):
They don't have to understand.
We need to protect our recoveryand our sobriety.
So, even though they don'tunderstand, I really encourage
people to have the courage toprioritize your recovery and
your comfort over theirexpectations, and that can be
really challenging for people todo, but my sobriety isn't worth
(44:17):
their discomfort, so I thinkthat's a huge rethink.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, that's good.
I'm thinking of something notentirely what you're saying, but
in the spirit of relocation itmakes me think about.
Maybe this requires some likemind training and concentration,
but it also applies to thethoughts and the mind you know,
because a big part of Buddhistmindfulness practice is to be
mindful of.
Is this thoughts helping me, oris this a wholesome thought or
(44:42):
is it a unwholesome thought?
So relocation also means thatam I going to hang out with this
thought?
Is it helping me?
Is it going to reduce thecraving?
If not, let me relocate.
Think about something elseWithin the mind I can relocate
to a different thought.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
So I got one for some of these listeners to say
that's great and all, but Ileave work, I have to go on the
street and I have to pass thatliquor store, or I'm in sales
and people are drinking aroundme and I can't necessarily
relocate.
So what would you say to theperson that has to drive past
(45:23):
that liquor store and get theirhouse?
They can't technically relocate, but what would you recommend?
Speaker 2 (45:29):
I don't know If that person is already in the
recovery community.
That probably is the way to goin terms of, like you were
saying earlier, talking tosomebody who has experienced
something similar.
Not feeling alone, not feelingisolated in that moment can go a
long way.
If not the help of a higherpower of some kind can.
(45:50):
Those are the main options.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Couldn't bring more.
We didn't get to this abuse ofsubstances passively, so we
don't get sober.
Pass abuse of substancespassively, so we don't get sober
passively.
We can't just wish our way andI'll say, pray our way to change
.
You have to be active andproactive.
And you might have to go tothat networking event where
(46:17):
there's booths where you have topass that street or go by that
liquor store.
There's booths where you haveto pass that street or go by
that liquor store.
Well, that's what could tend tobe proactive.
Whether someone's in a Tulsaprogram or not, we need to find
people that understand us andcan help us.
So to your point, man, ifsomehow my car just turns into
(46:37):
that, that that park, liquorstore, parking lot, well maybe I
better tell someone thatunderstands.
And then I go hey, familymember, husband, wife, friend
that doesn't drink, that isn'tin recovery program or other
forms of support groups, do youmind if I call you when I leave
work so I can be in the fundfive minutes beforehand, during
(46:59):
and five minutes afterwards?
That's proactive, that's anactive cup, that's what we've
got to do.
It might be something that'slike I can't leave my job
financially and I'm stuck, butI'm around this training and I
don't know how to drink, how tonot drink, or go to the bathroom
with that one guy and usecocaine.
(47:19):
Okay, well, for me, I'm going tohave a cup in my hand, whether
it's a red cup, whether it's abottle of water, whether it's
clear.
Say, hey, do you want anythingto drink?
No, I'm good, got a cup, it'smy pacifier, you know you talk
(47:43):
to someone.
Hey, I'm getting ready to dothis networking event or
business meeting or sales,whatever it might be.
Thanks for talking to me, andI'll call you in 20 minutes when
I quote unquote use in thebathroom.
That's an active, proactiveapproach to okay, you can
relocate at the time, but youcan relocate that drinking hand
with a cup or a pot of water oran apple juice or a cranberry
juice.
Okay, I can't.
(48:04):
Uh, I can't not, I have to goto the seating.
But you know what?
I got some family stuff, mykids I do have to leave a little
bit early today and those arethings that they do.
I'm willing to protect myrecovery and sobriety and
sacrifice potentially some oftheir discomfort for me saying
(48:24):
no, I'm not going to thebathroom, I don't need to pee.
Come on, let's do a bump, I'llbe ready to close this deal
Whatever it is.
it's being me whacked and if allelse fails, I'm willing to get
fired to protect my recovery.
No job I'm not doing.
No job.
I'm not good at my job if I'mallergic and I break out in
(48:44):
handcuffs, right.
So then that's something that Ihelp people with.
My family may never talk to meagain.
Is it worth not dying of youraddiction?
Well, I'll try to reduce theblow, but I'll certainly
relocate myself because I'mprioritizing my recovery more
than someone else Guilt, shame,passive aggressiveness,
(49:05):
unhealthy behaviors because wehave to relocate our addictive
and awesome mentality throughrecovery mentality.
Do you agree?
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's uncomfortable, it'sa practice I've got to put
myself out there but definitelya really good investment.
Because, um, I don't know ifthis is true for all the addicts
, but like a big part of beingan alcoholic and an addict also
means for me practicingself-deception too much.
I don't really know what Ireally want, but then when I put
myself out there, connect,there are moments where I like I
(49:37):
don't want to be like thisanymore.
I don't want, want to drink.
I have those moments.
But when I actually communicateit, talk to other people, I
start finding myself throughthose moments, but by myself.
I lie to myself all the time Idon't want to drink anymore, but
then I change my mind and drinkagain.
That spiraling down ofself-deception, connecting with
communities and then callingmyself out when I really want to
(49:58):
stop, and then staying true tothe desire, really builds up and
sets up for better days to staysober.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
I'll give you two more examples of the recognized
reduced relocate.
One was a client who was an MPand he had to go back to Upper
Baltimore to her friend, sayinghe was getting betrayed with
Baltimore, to find the thing.
He was in the tree in thehospital and all of a sudden he
was on Fifth Street and herealized he used three streets
(50:29):
from here and then it stopped onSixth Street.
All of a sudden his heart ratewent up.
Two streets away On SeventhStreet he starts sweating and he
can taste the drugs and theheroin and the music 8th Street.
All of a sudden he stopped wherehe would use, clenched on, put
(50:52):
his hand in his pocket.
He had his NAT tag.
He just held on.
Guess what he did he startedpraying.
He held on Guess what he did?
He started praying.
Don't let me get off this.
Help me, give me the couragenot to leave.
Ninth street All of a sudden heexhaled.
Tenth street he let go of hisfingers.
Twelfth street he texts hissponsor.
(51:14):
Thirteenth street.
So he recognized, he did whathe could in the moment to reduce
and then he'd relocate.
And the last one I had.
My boss worked in an inpatientfacility and I was a treatment
assistant and it was after lunchand I knocked on his door and I
opened it and he had I say thisendearingly- crazy eyes meaning
(51:39):
almost like tunnel vision, butlike fear.
I say this endearingly crazyeyes, meaning almost like tunnel
vision, but like fear and shockat the same time.
I looked at him and we're bothin recovery.
I probably had six years.
He had like 12, 12 years,something like that.
And I go you okay, dude, and hesays no, I'm not.
He got a call from anold-easing buddy.
(52:00):
He's the director of a rehabright, driving up all sons to
rehab.
It triggered his old cravings.
Luckily he worked with his bestfriend who was overseeing the
adolescent unit, talked to himfor 15 minutes Work wasn't
important at this time and guesswhat?
(52:23):
Still wasn't going away, stillhad intense cravings, still
wanted to use.
He called his sponsor Sponsor,talked to him for a little bit
longer and I went and checked onhim.
I'm like, hey, man, how can Ihelp?
And he said I need to leave fora while.
I said yeah, that's probably agood idea Now did I think he was
going to go use?
No, I didn't.
I think he did enough.
(52:43):
He recognized it,self-diagnosed.
He's doing things to reduce it,multiple things, not
impulsively trying to reduce,but intentionally, with purpose
trying to reduce these things.
He still had it craving A verysafe place, a drug alcohol rehab
facility for adolescents andadults.
It was still there.
So guess what he did?
He went out for a while.
(53:05):
He's gone for 20 minutes.
I don't know if he walked orwhether he got in his car.
I know he didn't use, but herelocated.
He came back and said you good,he says he had a lot there.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
that's what we need to do we have a plan?
Speaker 1 (53:20):
Whether it be recovery-related literature,
prayer is a huge thing for a lotof people.
Whether it's to a God, to ahigher power, to something that
can give us the courage andstrength and the wisdom and
recovery to do the next rightthing, that's a big thing for a
lot of people.
The last story is there's thislady who told her sponsor not to
(53:45):
visit her.
She suggested not to visit herfamily in Texas during the
holiday because the sponsor knewshe was going to set herself up
for cravings and triggers.
So she decided to go.
She called her sponsor and shesaid Jan, I think I'm going to
use.
And her sponsor said you know,honey, I don't know if there's
(54:10):
anything I can do, but what Irecommend is you say a prayer.
She said okay, she got off thephone.
Hours went by, she didn't knowif she used or not.
The next day her sponsor calledher and said hey, I'm in Texas
and I'm still sober, and Ilistened to what you said.
I had seen her do the bathroom.
She did the bathroom.
(54:31):
She closed the bathroom stalldoor, she got on her knees right
at the bathroom stall and sheprayed to her higher power.
And she prayed to her higherpower, and that, for her, was
the difference between using itand not using it.
We do what we need to do, wetake actions that we need to
take, and I think one of thecommon themes for this is we
don't do it alone.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Yeah, good stuff.
Those are good stories.
Yeah, I mean, the thing is, ourbody always remembers, so, both
in addiction and in recovery.
That's why cravings are there,because I've trained my body.
I remember the feeling that Iget after that meeting.
So I just do it over and overagain.
Or meditation, I know theeffect produced by it by the end
(55:28):
.
So, just like doing that overand over again, it's like almost
like the retraining of the bodyand the consciousness.
So, yeah, I guess we cannotemphasize that enough when it
comes to recovery, because it'srepetition.
So I got to replace the programof addiction with the program
of recovery.
There is no such thing as noprogram.
(55:51):
There is always one program.
It's either the addiction orrecovery.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
It's a great black and white to look at.
Am I going closer to a drink ordrug or am I doing the action
of recovery, the reaction ofaddictive tendencies?
Thank you all for joining ustoday in today's journey into
recognizing, reducing andpotentially getting rid of those
(56:17):
cravings.
We delve into the sciencebehind cravings and explore
practical strategies to managethem.
Remember, the path to recoveryand well-being is unique for
everyone.
Finding what works for you iskey.
Hopefully we showed you a lotof things.
We hope you found today'sdiscussion valuable.
If you did, let us know, sendus a message, and you can do so
(56:39):
right in the episode notes or onour website.
We make it super easy for youto contact us.
We can even share it on our nextepisode if you give us some
feedback.
That'd be a lot of fun.
So please share this episodewith anyone who might benefit
and there are plenty of people.
It's always cool to hear someof the therapists or counselors
who play this or other episodesfor their groups Really warming
(57:04):
to hear.
So your support helps uscontinue bringing really this
meaningful content.
Don't forget to subscribe toour newsletter.
We're excited to launch that,so please click the link and
subscribe for more tips,insights and updates.
Our newsletter is packed withresources on mental health,
addiction recovery, mindfulnessand holistic wellness.
Remember, it's designed tosupport you on your journey to
(57:27):
healing and growth.
So thank you for being part ofour community.
Keep your journey growing Untilnext time.
My name is Luke.
Speaker 2 (57:34):
This is Zha.
Thank you all for listening.
Welcome to A Therapist, A Buddhist to you,
brought to you by the RecoveryCollective in Annapolis,
Maryland.
At the Recovery Collective, weoffer hope and support on your
journey to healing and growth.
I'm your co-host and therapist,Luke Dubois, and I'm joined by
my co-host, the everenlightening and always
surprising Zalma.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hey Luke, hey Zalma.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Cravings.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Cravings are something we all all of us
experience, and yes, that evenincludes the monk who has let go
of all the personal belongings.
I'm not lying.
That's the truth.
The second truth, if I'm notmistaken, it's a joke, right?
Whether you're battlingaddiction or just curious about
managing those irresistibleurges, this episode is for you.
(00:45):
We'll explore powerfulstrategies to help you navigate
and overcome cravings.
So stick around, because you'reabout to hear something that
really could be life-changing.
Cravings, whether it's forsubstances, a behavior or even
certain foods, they can reallybe intense, overwhelming and
sometimes feel impossible tocontrol.
They can really be intense,overwhelming and sometimes feel
(01:06):
impossible to control.
I can relate.
Last night's all there's, thatHaagen-Dazs coconut pineapple
ice cream.
That's summer and dirty.
That was a craving.
But what if I told you thereare strategies to manage and
overcome these cravings.
There's techniques that notonly help you recognize and
understand them, but also reducethe power over you and offer
(01:27):
practical steps to take whenthey become too strong.
So in today's episode, we'regoing to explore these
strategies in depth.
We'll uncover the secrets toeffectively manage cravings,
drawn from both therapeutic andBuddhist perspectives, whether
you're supporting someone who is, or you're simply interested in
better understanding this humanbehavior and mental health.
(01:47):
We're providing ways to gaincontrol over these so vicious
impulses.
So be sure to remember to likeand subscribe to our podcast and
stay updated on future episodes.
And if you find our discussionhelpful, please share them with
others who might benefit.
That's really our division andengineer.
Your support helps us continuebringing valuable content to you
(02:07):
and others.
And if you've been with us formultiple episodes and want to
show your gratitude in the formof giving us a call for your
cash, please do so through thelink in our episode notes.
We'd be very happy and if youwant, we can give you a
shout-out.
And don't forget, season 2 ofour podcast will be wrapping up
in July.
So after this one, we've gotone more episode in July and
(02:30):
we'll be taking a break inAugust to work on some exciting
e-courses that we know you'llfind beneficial.
We'll be back in September withseason three, packed with more
insightful topics anddiscussions.
So it's all this week.
This week, it's the week we getto introduce our brand new
subscription to our listenershere and our other platforms.
We call it the Collective.
(02:51):
It's backed with valuableinsights, practical tips and
exclusive updates designed toelevate your mental health and
support your wellness recovery,and it's something that we
certainly talked about for awhile.
We want to bring a lot of valuein everything, and this
(03:11):
subscription will be free, andit's really important us to
bring bring this to you guys,and our mission is to offer
expert advice and actionablestrategies that continually help
you people in your lives.
So we'll have a recurringsegment in the subscription.
You'll explore how to align yourself-care practices with the
natural cycles of life andenhance your well-being with
practical, season-specificadvice.
(03:32):
One of the great practitionersof the Recovery Collective,
jennifer.
She will guide you fromwinter's introspective calm to
summer's vibrant energy, helpingyou nurture yourself through
the changing seasons.
So that would be really cool,right?
You'll also gain access tounique resources, the latest
updates on our services,workshops, e-courses you know
(03:56):
short-term, long-term goals wemight have some e-books or other
books to offer, as well asother community events.
Our engaging content includesZal with his Buddhist inspired
mindfulness exercises, and we'lloffer other holistic tips and
inspiring real-life stories.
Plus, if you sign up, you'llenjoy special offers and
(04:18):
exclusive discounts availableonly to our subscribers.
So click the link in theepisode notes and you'll get an
email from us, and we will notspam you to death, that's for
sure.
We'll make it valuable.
So check us out.
It'll be in the episode notes.
You can also check our websiteout.
It'll be pretty readilyavailable there.
It will be worked through live,so all right, so let's get into
(04:41):
it.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Sounds good, so let's get into.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
It Sounds good.
Cravings it's time for us to goto the recovery and addiction
topic.
I want to talk about reducingcravings.
You know they can happen at abunch of different times with
people's journeys, especiallyearly on, and there can be
trigger periods for people.
But I like to be talking aboutit in some of the other episodes
that we've talked about,whether it's the physiological
(05:06):
aspects of addiction, whetherit's the perfect equation of
recovery we've talked about thisone's getting down to the
nitty-gritty that peoplestruggle with, and that's that's
great news yeah, where do webegin?
well, we all go yeah maybe.
Uh, for you and I they're notnecessarily drug and alcohol
(05:28):
based like they used to be.
I I don't think I've had afull-blown craving in years.
I certainly had fleetingthoughts, I think for the first
five, six, seven, eight years ofmy sobriety.
As soon as spring went intosummer and I hit that that like
83, 85 degree day, for somereason I thought about a beer.
(05:48):
Hopefully it came in as fast asit came out and it went out as
fast as it came in.
But cravings can still happenfor people.
It doesn't mean that I'm notsusceptible to them, because I
can be.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah, I like that framing of reducing craving.
Especially for somebody who'snew, getting rid of craving
completely probably soundsimpossible.
I think it is impossible to be0%, completely gone.
But I guess my understanding ofcraving or maybe you can expand
more on that too of like I needto have it, like the need, like
(06:23):
a desperate desire that almostI'm going to die if I don't get
it.
You know, I don't know if thatsounds too extreme, but that's
my understanding of what cravingmeans.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
And I think for a percentage of our listeners that
are in some form of recovery orpost-taps.
How can I get rid of somethingif I'm powerless over it?
I can't.
I'm powerless over drugs andalcohol and my life has become
unmanageable.
You see so frequently.
Well, I don't know if I'll everget rid of it, but can I reduce
it?
So let's break the cravingsdown into three categories to
(06:57):
help us cope and deal with them.
I call it the three R's.
The first one is recognize, thesecond one reduce and the third
one is relocate.
Let's break each one down.
So the first R, I say recognize.
You can self-diagnose.
How many conditions ordisorders can you self-diagnose
(07:19):
yourself?
So if we're having a craving,if we identify it and
acknowledge it, if all of asudden, that first 83, 84 degree
day, of course you're selling alawnmower I want a lawnmower
and all of a sudden, man, Ialways used to drink.
Or a holiday with family, man,I always used to sneak down
smoke crack, whatever it is.
(07:39):
And if you have that cravingyou can self-diagnose and
recognize it.
You can go shit.
I got a craving.
Just that realization and thatrecognizing that diagnosing
could potentially make thedifference from I've got a
craving impulse, react.
I've got a craving obsess andreact with using or obsessing
(08:04):
about it.
If you can self-diagnose andcall it out, that might just
might be the difference betweenthird decision, second thought,
third thought and bad decision.
I don't care what any otherthoughts are on this.
Obsessing about using Do youagree with that?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah.
So in a way, you're askingyourself identify.
Am I in the state of craving,or call somebody something like
that to kind of self-identify?
What are the signs?
Am I in that mode?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
If I can identify it, I might be able to change it.
Often, as you as a coach and meas a therapist, we help people
identify what they're actuallythinking and feeling.
If you can identify it, youmight be able to do something
different with it or about it.
But if we can can identify it,you might be able to do
something different with it orabout it.
But if we can't identify it, itcan be really hard to know what
to do differently.
So it breaks us out of thatimpulsive, compulsive,
(08:53):
reactionary, full-body,full-mind experience of cravings
to shit happened again.
I got a craving.
That little slowdown, littlelike speed bump or stop can be
all the difference betweenobsession and oh, that gives me
(09:14):
enough space for a second andcraving to react to craving to
suffer a third fall.
That's kind of what we'retalking about.
So recognize it.
I often see people in my groupsor my clients that either want
to minimize or stop their use.
They almost cuss at it.
(09:34):
It becomes this thing thatisn't necessarily their mind or
their obsession.
It's like you, asshole, You'recraving again.
Talking to the ism or the, theobsession, often you know,
behaviorally you would seepeople put like a rubber band or
like a bracelet on the likewith cigarettes, and then
(09:56):
they're craving what they do.
They snapped it, theyidentified it and then they
would reduce it by like oh I, Iwould feel a snap, a little
pinch, as opposed to need athought with more negative
thoughts.
So recognizing it can be a hugedifference.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, and that can be a practice of mindfulness too,
because there's a big differencebetween being the thought and
being with the thought.
So, like when I'm the craving,I am the craving and there's no,
nothing outside of it.
I won't even recognize that I'min that mode.
But when I'm with the thought,able to observe it, you know,
yeah, you kind of are able toseparate it from the thought and
(10:35):
then see that, okay, you know,this is I recognize what's going
on and what comes with acraving, often, especially those
intense cravings, not thisfleeting thoughts that may
happen in my sobriety today.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
It's intense, it's physical, it's emotional cues,
it's salivating, it's heartpalpitations, it's you hear
people sing, they can taste it,it's the sweating, it's racing
thoughts, it's everything thatis associated that we can be
aware and mindful of Recognizing.
I'm in it, I am full-blowncraving.
(11:10):
Diagnosing it.
Okay, let's stop, drop and rollthe whole crap of just saying
no, I'm not telling you to sayno, I'm telling you to identify
it.
If you can identify it, thenyou might have a second, third,
fourth thought that you could dosomething.
We say it so much.
We are powerless over thatfirst thought.
We are powerless over thatfirst feeling, that first
(11:32):
emotion.
I say, in some ways, we arepowerless over cravings.
Now, one thing I really enjoyis the anatomy of a craving and
that relapse.
So, yes, do cravings come outof the blue Sure and that
relapse?
Yes, do cravings come out ofthe blue Sure?
But I think a bunch of otherthings that we do or put
ourselves in that can better setup a craving or set up a
(11:54):
relapse.
We'd like to reduce those whichwe'll talk about really soon.
I do want to ask you a question.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Go for it, because what you're saying is related to
meditation in a way too,because mind has its own
mechanism and then it has itsown programming.
So there's always cause andeffect.
But then for the mind of anaddiction it's even more intense
.
There's like a wiring that'salready going on.
So with meditation we're ableto catch the thought before it
(12:22):
gets too late.
Sometimes, when my mind is nottrained, I find myself being
angry.
I don't even know how I gothere.
But then, through practice ofmeditation, you're like oh, that
was a thought that I was havingabout the future or the past,
and then it creates thatmechanism.
So I wanted to ask you aboutthe.
Maybe it's a little bit of badtracking, but is there a
difference between trigger andthe craving?
(12:42):
Is it possible to catch thetrigger before it turns into
craving?
Is it something that precedescraving?
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Absolutely, absolutely, and not to overwhelm
people.
It's kind of a chicken and theegg.
A lot of times somethingtriggers it, but some people
can't fathom that becausethey're so television and they
don't do that.
So, to your point, duringmindfulness and awareness
(13:09):
strategies I probably had 10%,probably being generous, but 5%
of people.
When I was in a residentialsetting journal, when you have a
craving, hey, you're walkingaround as doling, keep that
thing with you or your fiveminutes from it, go get it and
write down what happened duringand five minutes before and when
(13:30):
.
The people that do that, theyidentify some common patterns,
whether it's the physical place,whether it's their emotions
that are triggering the craving,or social situation that is
triggering the cravings.
But we're often not that awareof present things so yeah, I'd
(13:52):
say more times than not whichare things that absolutely
trigger a craving for sure.
So part of what we'd like to doand we can do that through
Buddhism and before we get toreducing these things, can you
tell us a little bit more about?
What does Buddhism say aboutrecognizing cravings?
(14:13):
I kind of made a little punsilly joke about it in the intro
.
So tell us about cravings andmoods.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
So that's the second noble truth, after Dukkha is the
first noble truth, and then thesecond noble truth is the
muddhya, which has to do withthe repetitive craving which is
the driving force behind thesuffering.
But the term that is used isdana, which is kind of like some
kind of attachment or almostlike an unquenchable thirst.
(14:42):
Yeah, so that's a Buddhistunderstanding of craving, which
is some form of attachment orexpectation.
There's a wanting.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
We can break that down as a trigger.
Well, for substances, or evenfood.
Why do we often crave sweets,or they often say sugars, like
an addiction?
Why do we crave a mind-openingsubstance like alcohol or a
mind-opening substance likeother drugs?
(15:12):
Well, they're trying to findsomething.
What do you mean by that from?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
your Buddhist perspective.
So the mind and the body in itsnatural state craves pleasure
and hates pain.
So the mechanism and the bodyin this natural state craves
pleasure and hates pain.
So the mechanism driving thecraving is that, you know,
avoiding pain and then wantingpleasure, like it's either or.
So that to me is like thedriving force, not just like
(15:39):
with addiction but just likelife in general, that I want to
avoid pain and I'm going tocrave towards no pain, and if
there is pleasure I want tocrave to that pleasure because
that's going to make me feelgood.
So it's almost like a binaryway of programming of the mind
and the body.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Do you see that as a human need to either avoid pain
or to gain pleasure?
And the trick is to do that ina healthy way.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
I don't know.
I mean in a true Buddhist sense.
It's transcending that,uprooting that.
It's not either or but.
It's transcending but livinglife in general.
I think we're always in thatmode.
It's nothing personal.
It's not my fault to wantsomething pleasurable and to
(16:28):
avoid pain.
It's just how I'm structured.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yeah, I think, with my behavioral and therapist lens
, that it can be instinctual todo one of those things.
And addiction can do both insome ways.
And addiction can do both insome ways.
It can numb the hour, it canavoid unwanted pain, while it
virtually gives you a form ofpleasure.
And we say, with progressioncomes addiction.
(16:53):
Okay, I know I might not begetting the pleasure that I want
, but at least I'm avoiding thediscomfort or the pain that I
have.
And that requires the brain tobe interested.
Let's talk about the second arc.
So they recognize it,self-diagnose, realize it.
That can be the differencebetween feeding the energy of
craving and obsession toallowing that second thought on
(17:17):
it.
So what are the second or thirdthoughts that would be
beneficial?
Well, how do I reach son of abitch, that guy I crave?
What do I reach son of a bitch,that guy I'm craving?
What do I do now?
We want to reduce it.
So we want to induce theintensity, the frequency, or
just stopping where it's going.
That's ideal, right?
(17:38):
12 steps, an obsession of themind, allergy of the body.
We would like to lose thisobsession.
That's important.
Smart recovery talks aboutmaking right decisions to not
condition ourself to fuel thisand to minimize, trying to,
(17:59):
typically behaviorally to not gointo that craving.
Let's talk about it.
It typically lasts a finiteamount of time.
It's not forever Often.
Cravings typically can last oneaverage 10 to 15 minutes.
This is not just true for drugsand alcohol.
(18:21):
But I think about myself.
I crave a sweet after everylunch or dinner and it's usually
the most intense for me rightafter I eat that meal.
And if I have the I'll saywillpower to not feed that sugar
sweet craving, after this 10,15 minutes, all of a sudden it
(18:41):
drops off a cliff and I don'thave that tremendous of desire
Usually.
Now here's the thing withself-sufficiency improvements
they can last 10 or 15 minutes.
Now there's probably apercentage of our listeners
that's going Bullshit, luke.
Not my experience and here'swhat I've noticed.
(19:03):
The best and worst thing happensto people who just weigh out
that substance grade.
Nothing happens.
But what often happens, they'llcome back a little bit more
intense, a little bit longer andthen they'll go away.
(19:24):
And then the best and worstthing happens.
Best thing is you didn't use,but the worst thing is it'll
creep up a little more intenseand a little bit longer and if
people hold on to that craving.
By themselves.
They get stronger and longerand people go and people feel
(19:45):
powerless and people feel likethey can't break this and then
the choice decision then doesn'tseem like a choice.
It's no I have to use.
At a really physiological levelit's saying I need this to
survive.
It's really what bringsconvincing itself with the
pleasure center.
So that's a nice.
To reduce it.
I think we should hit themeditation thing right off the
(20:08):
bat.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
yeah, that sounds good how, so how, how?
Speaker 1 (20:13):
some people can't fathom meditating, let let alone
sitting still when you have acraving.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
So you were rebuttal for that before moving on to
that, I think there were a lotof uh insights that you were
sharing earlier and I want tokind of unpack more about that
because, um, this is not the uhexact analogy, but what you were
saying kind of reminds me of myexperience of buddhist fasting
in my buddhist monkhood days.
(20:38):
So, like not eating past noon,the craving comes like I need to
eat, you know, because I'm usedto eating three meals a day.
So, like stopping eating,there's that craving.
But then, like you were saying,when I recognize that, wait,
why am I craving?
Because I haven't eaten, butthen am I going to die.
It's almost like aself-diagnosis If I don't eat
(21:02):
tonight, if I just wait until inthe morning, which is what I'm
supposed to do, am I going tosurvive?
And then, when I see that truth, I drink water and it gets
better and I kind of reduce theinteractions.
Or like a smell, or in thedining room you know things like
that or people eating.
When I remove myself from that,it reduces, you know.
So it makes me think about thattoo.
So, in a way, to relate thatwith meditation, it's like
(21:25):
meditating, not likeconcentration and like
distracting, but it's more likeleaning more into it, that I
want to understand why I'mexperiencing this, you know, and
then sitting with it and thenletting your mind talk to you.
That's what I usually do inthat fasting mode.
It becomes like an opportunityfor me to observe the mind and
(21:47):
meditate.
And the other point probably isalso I don't know how to talk
about it in a very specificstructural way, but people in
long-term sobriety knows thatwhen we are craving it's not
just like waiting it out,because if I keep waiting it out
it's going to come back, but inthat mode it's a symptom, right
(22:08):
?
There's something that needs tobe addressed and I have that
window and that needs to beaddressed through a healthy mean
.
Otherwise it's like a heartsurgery with an open wound and
I'm not doing anything about it.
So there has to be a treatmentof some kind with that window,
otherwise the craving is goingto kick in and I'm going to go
back to the original behavior.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
So when you're you as a recovery coach and someone
early in recovery, what are somethings you're telling them, as
you gave the example of thatmindfulness, being with that
craving, how do you help themthrough that when maybe in the
(22:54):
past, as soon as they thoughtabout it, it was just go and it
was no think?
How do you help them throughthat stage, which is so foreign,
right, For a lot of people?
They're leaving treatment forjust being conditioned to
craving use and you're settingthem up to be with that craving.
(23:15):
Explain the recovery coachingto you.
How does that work?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, it's difficult, but it's definitely a
collective effort Because it'snot like a pre-packaged
activities that can be done.
But there's an aspect ofself-discovery too.
You know so that craving, thatdiscomfort, is an expression of
a need that is not being met andthat needs to be addressed.
You know so for me, like I havea long history of finding my
(23:42):
own needs, like through creativeoutlet, you know, playing
guitar or going out for a run,like there is a physical,
emotional or spiritual need thatneeds to be addressed, so kind
of like sitting with it.
Uh, because you know,essentially, to simplify
everything, like in that momentI just want to be happy and I
would do everything to be happy,and one of the things that I do
know that makes me happy isdrinking or using, you know so
(24:05):
that's why I go back to it.
So finding other channelsthat's going to make me feel
satisfied, content and happy islike how we navigate.
So are you going to go out fora walk or are you going to call
somebody that you care about orshow up to work, Like some kind
of a meaningful way of you knowdealing with it will be the
(24:26):
long-term sustainable way ofdealing with it will be a
long-term, sustainable way ofdealing with it.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, if someone has the ability to be in that
mindfulness, cognitive, presentstage with that craving, well,
if they're with it for 10-15minutes and not reacting, then
they're also mindful, presentand cognitive with the
dissipation of that craving 15minutes and not reacting.
And they're also mindful,present and kind of with the
(24:50):
dissipation of that craving.
And if they're not, they callyou or they have their other
support or their other copingskills to help them through it.
Right, because it's not justthe whole shit I got craving
that you're mindful through.
It's through the full range ofexperiencing that Gosh, it's
through the full range ofexperiencing that Gosh.
It's just a familiar knuckle,it's from good, I got this,
(25:14):
shove it down.
It's not that I hear yousharing, it's the mindfulness
practice of that know, truth andeverything that comes with it.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah, and it's also very self-esteem boosting in a
way.
You know like I think peoplehave experienced that you don't
do it and then you're just likeso empowered by the fact that I
did it and I feel really goodand then that builds up over
time, right the western culture.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
If you can't self-diagnose and go oh, I'm
having this right now.
It's a bit like measuring theparameter.
If you can self-diagnose, ifyou can have that second thought
, third thought come in motion,then this mindfulness exercise
might be more useful.
If you can self-diagnose, if youcan pause, if you're not always
(26:07):
reactionary in that level ofearly stage powerlessness.
Powerlessness evolves andchanges but becomes a different
level of powerlessness that wecan sit with and relate to.
So I think that's a goodexample for cravings.
If it's just no, I can't fathom.
I just go and then maybemindfulness is not the best
(26:29):
early stage but yeah I'll add toit.
And there's different forms ofmeditation for cravings.
One is, you know, breathing incourage and higher power,
exhaling fear, exhalingaddiction, exhaling that craving
out through your, your mind'seye, andaling it.
There's no thought for theexhale.
There's different techniquesthat we can really benefit to be
(26:54):
present, hold on to thatcraving.
It's just about two deepbreathing exercises.
Another one is physicalexercise.
If someone's in the full-blowncraving, do 20-30 jumping jacks,
20-30 push-ups, sit-ups.
If you're getting your heartrate up, your blood pumping,
you're releasing some bit ofdopamine and neurotransfers.
(27:18):
Right and just.
I've had people that were comingoff of methadone and some
blackstone and not onlywithdrawal cravings.
I told them to run around thehouse, do very jumping jacks,
scream off the top of your lungs, get that heart rate up and
then release those goodneurotransmitters.
You're releasing something andit's not the desire to or the
(27:43):
quote, unquote need to use, butyou're reducing by increasing
your body and your heart rateand things like that.
So that can be very beneficial.
Any form of physical exercise.
You've got some history withrunning.
You know running that's a soundbeast for a lot of people it
can be cathartic.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
What do you take it?
Bill?
That was very helpful for me,although it was not sustainable
because I was just doing it bymyself.
But I still did run a lot inrecovery too after joining
recovery community.
But it does help because thatgrounding experience is also
what I'm looking for in thatmode of craving, because that
craving mode is like there's nosense of safety, support,
(28:27):
grounding experience, butanything that is repetitive
gives me the structure and thecomfort.
So, like some simple meditation, like you were talking about
the visualization of breathingin courage, you know breathing
out fear or craving, but alsoany kind of repetition, you know
.
I know in 12-step communitiesthat surrender prayer is used a
lot.
Some people just repeat thatover and over again, either out
(28:49):
loud or in the mind.
There's something verycomforting about the repetition,
and that's the same effect withthe running too.
Running is so repetitive butalso very grounding.
That's my experience.
It really helps.
Also, it's very physicallyinvolving, so it releases some
of the tension too.
But it's also important not tooverdo it, because I've overdone
(29:11):
it and it did have adverse oropposite effects.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
yeah, I overdid it yeah, but you do a lot of things
quite, quite addictive, right?
Um, we talked about triggers,so I'll bring this one up.
There's an acronym called halt.
It stands for hungry, angry,lonely, tired, and I think if
you have just one of thosethings, but especially two,
(29:39):
three of those things active atone time, could be the
conditions for cravings.
So if that triggers a craving,well, let's reduce these things.
So, yes, it can be hungry.
There's snackers commercials,someone's hangry and moaning and
groaning and they say youhaven't eaten in a while.
Grab a snacker.
(29:59):
As soon as they eat, they're nolonger hangry.
So I'm not just saying it'shungry, but it's also
nutritionally.
What you put in your body cangreatly affect your levels.
So sugar for example, ironically, snickers is not the healthiest
food.
(30:20):
But what does it do?
It can create a spike in bloodsugar and, just like when you
eat high-sugar foods, you get aboost, an increase, and then
what happens?
You eventually get a crash.
Well, when you use substances,you get a boost, an increase,
and then what happens?
You get a crash.
So that is very we call it likecross-sensitization.
(30:43):
If you have excessive sugar, itcan lead to sensitivity to
substances because you'rereleasing that dopamine and lots
of sugar and might haveheightened cravings because of
that.
And when you eat certain foods,often unhealthy, it stimulates
the reward system in the brain,decreasing dopamine levels, just
like drugs do.
(31:04):
So this can create a similarcycle of craving reward.
When I was at a similar cycle ofcraving reward, I worked at a
treatment facility.
We did a morning meeting at 8am and everyone already ate
their breakfasts and stuff andthey come into the room and
we're talking about the recoverygoal for the day and seeing how
they feel physically, mentallyand spiritually and
(31:24):
recovery-related goal.
It's an intention andfoundation.
One day early on I'm lookingaround the room of 20-plus
people and half of them areeating lollipops at 7 and 8 am
and I'm going.
What are we doing as a facility?
We're allowing these people tostart their day with a dopamine
(31:47):
hit that they're craving.
Obviously, A lot of these peoplehad to use in the morning to
get a boost, and now thatsubstance is gone.
So now do we allow them to havethree, four, five, six, seven,
eight cups of coffee and havelollipops and sugar?
No, we didn't set up theconditions for that, but that is
(32:08):
kind of thatcross-sensitization of coffee
and have lollipops and sugar?
No, we didn't set up theconditions for that, but that is
kind of thatcross-sensitization.
So what we put in our body cancertainly have a big effect.
There's hormonal effects thatcan just wrap the fluctuations
and blood sugar levels.
So it's a huge piece.
So that's the whole thing.
Or nutrition, let's go to Ttired man, we're tired man,
(32:29):
we're tired.
What happens I?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
don't make good decisions when I'm tired.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
My ability to function is not there.
Literally my prefrontal cortexis impaired.
When I'm tired, it makes itharder to resist cravings.
It increases the likelihood ofbeing impulsive.
It increases my likelihood todeal with emotions like anger.
So for a lot of people usingsubstances, they passed out and
came to.
(32:55):
One of the reasons why relapseis often high for people
greetings are high is becausesleep is shit.
When you're in detox andwithdrawal Sleep is shit and
you're not getting that seven tonine hours and withdrawal Sleep
is shedding.
You're not getting that sevento nine hours, really eight-ish
hours of that, four to sixcycles of rapid eye movement and
slow-loop cycle.
It's just heightened stress,emotional instability, stress,
(33:19):
hormones revealing well,emotional radiation is not there
and I just don't want to feelthis.
I should have done a coffee anda lot of sweets or all of a
sudden you're creating to meinitially yeah, it really is a.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
It's really, it's a full circle, as you're
describing, because, um, youknow, just stopping is not the
answer.
If that's the case, it's like awell-rounded approach.
Right, because I need ahealthier lifestyle, because if
I just don't use and drink andthen still living a pretty, um,
poor lifestyle, you know I don'thave a good shot at it because
(33:56):
things are still out of order,you know.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
So, yeah, I got the little callous to be in in the
field for 15 years plus ofpeople that were withdrawn.
We can certainly give you somecomfort meds You're still going
to be uncomfortable, but we cangive you some comfort meds and
help your vitals as much as wecan.
And the people that I reallyfelt for, even if we gave them
(34:22):
sleeping medications, theydidn't sleep a wink for not just
days, weeks.
You go out of your mind whenyou can't sleep right, your mood
swings, that your ability, likeyou're miserable.
You want to self medicate.
You can't regulate youremotions.
You feel like you're losingmuch.
I had a soft spot for that forthem.
(34:46):
If you can get through this,your body and brain will
eventually shut down.
Your body will crash and getsleep eventually.
But it often takes days evenlonger for people for that sleep
hygiene and for the brain to go.
I need that REM now.
You're not cutting this off andtelling me just to pass out and
(35:08):
come to.
So the people that got throughthose two weeks finally got six
hours on day 16 or 17 and theygot some coping skills and they
tried to not sleep during theday and try to do sleep hygiene,
go to sleep every night and alot of them didn't go to sleep
until 5.
55 and then woke up at six andit was like it's sleep hygiene.
(35:32):
It's tough but it's soimportant there's some good.
Um gosh, it'll be cool to get asleep hygiene person on.
That could be a whole episodein itself.
But pulse right hungry, angry,emotional discomfort, that
isolation.
So do not isolate yourself.
You can reduce screens that way, and tired, that's a tough one.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yeah, this is probably too much of a
simplification, but I likesimple things.
But, as you're describing, asI'm listening, the thought that
comes to mind is like therecovery process is pretty much
simply transitioning from aself-abuse lifestyle to
self-care lifestyle, becausewhen we're actively using that's
a form of harming myself andjust by stopping doesn't do it.
(36:17):
I have to replace that withself-care.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Self-care and let others care will fess them for
us.
And that takes us to, I think,probably one of the most
important reducing.
Let me talk to that.
And you have a craving, talkabout it.
Don't deal with it on your own,by yourself, because, like we
said at the beginning, the bestand worst thing can happen.
(36:43):
You can sit with that cravingfor 5-10 minutes and nothing
happens.
But you can tell yourself I gotthrough it, I didn't need to
reduce this craving, I couldjust swallow it, hold on and I
don't need anyone for that.
That is literally the oppositeof step one, isn't it?
If you're saying, okay, itcomes back up stronger and
(37:06):
longer, and if I don't share it,when you share it, it loses
some of its power.
Somehow.
That it's not you and thiscreating alone, somehow, just
sharing it helps reduce it, itbecomes less powerful.
But if you do it by yourself.
You are managing and you'retelling that craving in yourself
(37:28):
and that brain wiring systemthat I'm not powerless over this
and I can manage this myself.
It is literally the opposite ofstep one.
I've got someone in my mindthat I'm working with right now.
And it took them it seemed likeweeks and weeks and weeks to
finally I'll say courage, talkto other people about their
(37:52):
cravings.
And then, of course, to talk tothe sponsor and she said good,
I'm glad you told me so, if ithappens again, Call me.
So.
As soon as this person left andwas in the car, guess what they
got the craving, Guess whatthey struggled to do.
I don't want to bother her, Ijust talked with her.
So I don't think I can.
(38:12):
I should be able to do thismyself.
She struggled with the craving.
Eventually she goes what am Idoing?
That's what I always try toconvince myself not to do, and
then she's done full.
It's been easier for her.
And she used the word easier, itlost its power.
I didn't have to do it bymyself.
She wasn't filled with shameand guilt.
(38:34):
It's let others help us.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
I think that's a big reduction, yeah definitely
that's a big part of the processof recovery.
Self-care is allowing others tohelp us.
Help me, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
We've got a couple more.
This is endless, but I'll giveyou a couple more.
Spending time in nature.
The benefit of green spaces,water, mountains.
Nature just has this, andenergetic as well.
Just calling the fact that canlower our cortisol.
We should reduce our stresslevels.
(39:08):
It can reduce that.
Nature encourages mindfulnessof being present.
It can help us recognize and bemore in touch with ourself, and
that is a powerful thing, don'tyou?
Speaker 2 (39:20):
think, yeah, there is a sense of interconnectedness.
When I'm in nature, I mean inthe 12-step, some people treat
higher power that way.
You know nature there's a senseof connection, that, oh, I'm
part of this bigger tapestry oflife and I'm being taken care of
by this same force that'smaking the plant grow.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
You know, you're all connected tapped into the
powerful part of that.
Interconnectedness is a verypowerful actually higher kind of
thing in uh theravada ormindfulness, traditional
buddhist mindfulness practicetoo.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
The first foundation is a foundation, mindfulness of
the body.
There are some sections thatare about the four elements,
meditation.
So that can be a really fittingmeditation to when you're in
nature, when you start becomingmindful of these elements in the
body that you can see in naturetoo.
You know the solidity,earthiness and then the water.
(40:14):
So there is that connectionbetween my physical body and
then the nature, and it can bevery soothing and grounding and
healing too.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
It's beautiful.
Other ways to reduce I call ittech detox reduce screen time,
social media and electronics.
It's amazing how the most shortattention ADD person can be on
a screen for hours, because whatdoes it do?
(40:42):
It's often a blue screen.
Blue screen helps us with theconditions for paying attention
and makes our eyes be moreattentive to that.
And to pay attention to ascreen we need to use our energy
to do so and that's thedopamine release.
(41:03):
So there's a reason why peoplecan scroll and jump from social
media.
People can watch, you know, 5to 30-second clips for hours and
hours because it's dopamine,dopamine, dopamine and it's just
constant and that can justdrain us and all of a sudden, no
matter how tired you are,somehow it's two or three in the
(41:26):
morning or it's midnight to getoff the screens.
That can help you physically,emotionally and allow your brain
to be more present.
Do the things that meditation,mindfulness is I.
It's like the best medicine forthe brain and our consciousness
.
Any jump out to you for ways toreduce.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Yeah, so I'd like to kind of piggyback on that too.
A good way that I do is toreplace tech with physical books
by slowing things down.
It really helps.
When I physically read a book,it's just like a completely
different feeling than readingit on the computer or on social
media or on the internet.
So physically flipping the page, taking my time or writing in
(42:10):
the journal, there's that senseof groundedness too in that.
And then the other things too.
I don't know if this is morepersonal and related to my own
story, but sometimes to calm mymind in my earlier days there
are just so many songs that I'vememorized to sing and write and
play.
So I just write those songsdown physically very, very
(42:32):
slowly out of my own memory tojust calm the mind, write down
the lyrics, infusing with themeanings of those lyrics, and
then slowing it down.
It always helps to slow downthe thought process there's a
thousand more.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
There's a thousand more.
Let's talk to the third R.
Third R relocate.
If you're in the place whereyou have creating, it won't go
away.
You've tried some inductiontechniques calling someone ship
NA chip or NAT tag or NA chip orwhatever it might be, and it
(43:08):
doesn't reduce the craving.
Get out of there, removeyourself.
There's a saying if you hang outin a barbershop, you'll
eventually get your haircut.
If you're hanging out with oldusing buddies or people that are
dambling or playing poker nightand they're all drinking and
you're not, or if you're at afamily wedding and it's that
(43:30):
time of night where everyone'ssitting in that spot and they're
all pass-buzzing and you'reseeing and it's almost like this
weird wavelength movie andthey're all in the exact same
spot and it's almost slow motionfor you and you don't like it.
You can go.
If it's a holiday season andit's holidays and you're with
your family, please don't go,and they're all wasted or drunk.
(43:53):
They don't have to understand.
We need to protect our recoveryand our sobriety.
So, even though they don'tunderstand, I really encourage
people to have the courage toprioritize your recovery and
your comfort over theirexpectations, and that can be
really challenging for people todo, but my sobriety isn't worth
(44:17):
their discomfort, so I thinkthat's a huge rethink.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, that's good.
I'm thinking of something notentirely what you're saying, but
in the spirit of relocation itmakes me think about.
Maybe this requires some likemind training and concentration,
but it also applies to thethoughts and the mind you know,
because a big part of Buddhistmindfulness practice is to be
mindful of.
Is this thoughts helping me, oris this a wholesome thought or
(44:42):
is it a unwholesome thought?
So relocation also means thatam I going to hang out with this
thought?
Is it helping me?
Is it going to reduce thecraving?
If not, let me relocate.
Think about something elseWithin the mind I can relocate
to a different thought.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
So I got one for some of these listeners to say
that's great and all, but Ileave work, I have to go on the
street and I have to pass thatliquor store, or I'm in sales
and people are drinking aroundme and I can't necessarily
relocate.
So what would you say to theperson that has to drive past
(45:23):
that liquor store and get theirhouse?
They can't technically relocate, but what would you recommend?
Speaker 2 (45:29):
I don't know If that person is already in the
recovery community.
That probably is the way to goin terms of, like you were
saying earlier, talking tosomebody who has experienced
something similar.
Not feeling alone, not feelingisolated in that moment can go a
long way.
If not the help of a higherpower of some kind can.
(45:50):
Those are the main options.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Couldn't bring more.
We didn't get to this abuse ofsubstances passively, so we
don't get sober.
Pass abuse of substancespassively, so we don't get sober
passively.
We can't just wish our way andI'll say, pray our way to change
.
You have to be active andproactive.
And you might have to go tothat networking event where
(46:17):
there's booths where you have topass that street or go by that
liquor store.
There's booths where you haveto pass that street or go by
that liquor store.
Well, that's what could tend tobe proactive.
Whether someone's in a Tulsaprogram or not, we need to find
people that understand us andcan help us.
So to your point, man, ifsomehow my car just turns into
(46:37):
that, that that park, liquorstore, parking lot, well maybe I
better tell someone thatunderstands.
And then I go hey, familymember, husband, wife, friend
that doesn't drink, that isn'tin recovery program or other
forms of support groups, do youmind if I call you when I leave
work so I can be in the fundfive minutes beforehand, during
(46:59):
and five minutes afterwards?
That's proactive, that's anactive cup, that's what we've
got to do.
It might be something that'slike I can't leave my job
financially and I'm stuck, butI'm around this training and I
don't know how to drink, how tonot drink, or go to the bathroom
with that one guy and usecocaine.
(47:19):
Okay, well, for me, I'm going tohave a cup in my hand, whether
it's a red cup, whether it's abottle of water, whether it's
clear.
Say, hey, do you want anythingto drink?
No, I'm good, got a cup, it'smy pacifier, you know you talk
(47:43):
to someone.
Hey, I'm getting ready to dothis networking event or
business meeting or sales,whatever it might be.
Thanks for talking to me, andI'll call you in 20 minutes when
I quote unquote use in thebathroom.
That's an active, proactiveapproach to okay, you can
relocate at the time, but youcan relocate that drinking hand
with a cup or a pot of water oran apple juice or a cranberry
juice.
Okay, I can't.
(48:04):
Uh, I can't not, I have to goto the seating.
But you know what?
I got some family stuff, mykids I do have to leave a little
bit early today and those arethings that they do.
I'm willing to protect myrecovery and sobriety and
sacrifice potentially some oftheir discomfort for me saying
(48:24):
no, I'm not going to thebathroom, I don't need to pee.
Come on, let's do a bump, I'llbe ready to close this deal
Whatever it is.
it's being me whacked and if allelse fails, I'm willing to get
fired to protect my recovery.
No job I'm not doing.
No job.
I'm not good at my job if I'mallergic and I break out in
(48:44):
handcuffs, right.
So then that's something that Ihelp people with.
My family may never talk to meagain.
Is it worth not dying of youraddiction?
Well, I'll try to reduce theblow, but I'll certainly
relocate myself because I'mprioritizing my recovery more
than someone else Guilt, shame,passive aggressiveness,
(49:05):
unhealthy behaviors because wehave to relocate our addictive
and awesome mentality throughrecovery mentality.
Do you agree?
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's uncomfortable, it'sa practice I've got to put
myself out there but definitelya really good investment.
Because, um, I don't know ifthis is true for all the addicts
, but like a big part of beingan alcoholic and an addict also
means for me practicingself-deception too much.
I don't really know what Ireally want, but then when I put
myself out there, connect,there are moments where I like I
(49:37):
don't want to be like thisanymore.
I don't want, want to drink.
I have those moments.
But when I actually communicateit, talk to other people, I
start finding myself throughthose moments, but by myself.
I lie to myself all the time Idon't want to drink anymore, but
then I change my mind and drinkagain.
That spiraling down ofself-deception, connecting with
communities and then callingmyself out when I really want to
(49:58):
stop, and then staying true tothe desire, really builds up and
sets up for better days to staysober.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
I'll give you two more examples of the recognized
reduced relocate.
One was a client who was an MPand he had to go back to Upper
Baltimore to her friend, sayinghe was getting betrayed with
Baltimore, to find the thing.
He was in the tree in thehospital and all of a sudden he
was on Fifth Street and herealized he used three streets
(50:29):
from here and then it stopped onSixth Street.
All of a sudden his heart ratewent up.
Two streets away On SeventhStreet he starts sweating and he
can taste the drugs and theheroin and the music 8th Street.
All of a sudden he stopped wherehe would use, clenched on, put
(50:52):
his hand in his pocket.
He had his NAT tag.
He just held on.
Guess what he did he startedpraying.
He held on Guess what he did?
He started praying.
Don't let me get off this.
Help me, give me the couragenot to leave.
Ninth street All of a sudden heexhaled.
Tenth street he let go of hisfingers.
Twelfth street he texts hissponsor.
(51:14):
Thirteenth street.
So he recognized, he did whathe could in the moment to reduce
and then he'd relocate.
And the last one I had.
My boss worked in an inpatientfacility and I was a treatment
assistant and it was after lunchand I knocked on his door and I
opened it and he had I say thisendearingly- crazy eyes meaning
(51:39):
almost like tunnel vision, butlike fear.
I say this endearingly crazyeyes, meaning almost like tunnel
vision, but like fear and shockat the same time.
I looked at him and we're bothin recovery.
I probably had six years.
He had like 12, 12 years,something like that.
And I go you okay, dude, and hesays no, I'm not.
He got a call from anold-easing buddy.
(52:00):
He's the director of a rehabright, driving up all sons to
rehab.
It triggered his old cravings.
Luckily he worked with his bestfriend who was overseeing the
adolescent unit, talked to himfor 15 minutes Work wasn't
important at this time and guesswhat?
(52:23):
Still wasn't going away, stillhad intense cravings, still
wanted to use.
He called his sponsor Sponsor,talked to him for a little bit
longer and I went and checked onhim.
I'm like, hey, man, how can Ihelp?
And he said I need to leave fora while.
I said yeah, that's probably agood idea Now did I think he was
going to go use?
No, I didn't.
I think he did enough.
(52:43):
He recognized it,self-diagnosed.
He's doing things to reduce it,multiple things, not
impulsively trying to reduce,but intentionally, with purpose
trying to reduce these things.
He still had it craving A verysafe place, a drug alcohol rehab
facility for adolescents andadults.
It was still there.
So guess what he did?
He went out for a while.
(53:05):
He's gone for 20 minutes.
I don't know if he walked orwhether he got in his car.
I know he didn't use, but herelocated.
He came back and said you good,he says he had a lot there.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
that's what we need to do we have a plan?
Speaker 1 (53:20):
Whether it be recovery-related literature,
prayer is a huge thing for a lotof people.
Whether it's to a God, to ahigher power, to something that
can give us the courage andstrength and the wisdom and
recovery to do the next rightthing, that's a big thing for a
lot of people.
The last story is there's thislady who told her sponsor not to
(53:45):
visit her.
She suggested not to visit herfamily in Texas during the
holiday because the sponsor knewshe was going to set herself up
for cravings and triggers.
So she decided to go.
She called her sponsor and shesaid Jan, I think I'm going to
use.
And her sponsor said you know,honey, I don't know if there's
(54:10):
anything I can do, but what Irecommend is you say a prayer.
She said okay, she got off thephone.
Hours went by, she didn't knowif she used or not.
The next day her sponsor calledher and said hey, I'm in Texas
and I'm still sober, and Ilistened to what you said.
I had seen her do the bathroom.
She did the bathroom.
(54:31):
She closed the bathroom stalldoor, she got on her knees right
at the bathroom stall and sheprayed to her higher power.
And she prayed to her higherpower, and that, for her, was
the difference between using itand not using it.
We do what we need to do, wetake actions that we need to
take, and I think one of thecommon themes for this is we
don't do it alone.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Yeah, good stuff.
Those are good stories.
Yeah, I mean, the thing is, ourbody always remembers, so, both
in addiction and in recovery.
That's why cravings are there,because I've trained my body.
I remember the feeling that Iget after that meeting.
So I just do it over and overagain.
Or meditation, I know theeffect produced by it by the end
(55:28):
.
So, just like doing that overand over again, it's like almost
like the retraining of the bodyand the consciousness.
So, yeah, I guess we cannotemphasize that enough when it
comes to recovery, because it'srepetition.
So I got to replace the programof addiction with the program
of recovery.
There is no such thing as noprogram.
(55:51):
There is always one program.
It's either the addiction orrecovery.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
It's a great black and white to look at.
Am I going closer to a drink ordrug or am I doing the action
of recovery, the reaction ofaddictive tendencies?
Thank you all for joining ustoday in today's journey into
recognizing, reducing andpotentially getting rid of those
(56:17):
cravings.
We delve into the sciencebehind cravings and explore
practical strategies to managethem.
Remember, the path to recoveryand well-being is unique for
everyone.
Finding what works for you iskey.
Hopefully we showed you a lotof things.
We hope you found today'sdiscussion valuable.
If you did, let us know, sendus a message, and you can do so
(56:39):
right in the episode notes or onour website.
We make it super easy for youto contact us.
We can even share it on our nextepisode if you give us some
feedback.
That'd be a lot of fun.
So please share this episodewith anyone who might benefit
and there are plenty of people.
It's always cool to hear someof the therapists or counselors
who play this or other episodesfor their groups Really warming
(57:04):
to hear.
So your support helps uscontinue bringing really this
meaningful content.
Don't forget to subscribe toour newsletter.
We're excited to launch that,so please click the link and
subscribe for more tips,insights and updates.
Our newsletter is packed withresources on mental health,
addiction recovery, mindfulnessand holistic wellness.
Remember, it's designed tosupport you on your journey to
(57:27):
healing and growth.
So thank you for being part ofour community.
Keep your journey growing Untilnext time.
My name is Luke.
Speaker 2 (57:34):
This is Zha.
Thank you all for listening.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.