January 8, 2024 • 31 mins
Facing the inevitable end of life (whenever that is) can unearth a well of emotions, from fear to a profound appreciation for the time we have. It's a journey Zaw recently traversed after personal losses, and in this heart-to-heart episode, we open the door to a conversation many shy away from—mindfulness of death. We venture into how this contemplation is not merely about accepting our mortality but about embracing the fullness of life with intention and kindness. We trace its roots in Theravada Buddhism and reveal how this practice can enrich our lives, urging us toward a path of wholesomeness and purpose.
As we navigate through the realms of existential therapy, we tackle the very impermanence that shapes our existence. This episode is a sanctuary for those yearning to find meaning amidst life's fleeting moments, offering strategies to align with personal values and employ grounding techniques for deeper self-awareness. The practice of the 32 parts of the body meditation is just one transformative tool we discuss, guiding us to shift our perspective and cherish the living spirit within and around us. Tune in for an exploration that promises to challenge your views on death and inspire a renewed zest for the life you lead.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome, dear listeners, to another episode of
A Therapist, a Buddhist in you,brought to you by the Recovery
Collective and the Natless Mere.
This is where we explore thedepths of human experience
through the lens of ballisticwell-being.
We are your host, luke Gonzal,and today we bring you the topic
that might be consideredunconventional but holds
profound wisdom the mindfulnessof death.
(00:20):
In a world bustling with thenoise of daily life,
contemplating our mortalityoften takes a backseat.
However, as we unravel thelayers of this often overlooked
aspect, we discover thatmindfulness of death isn't a
morbid exploration, but a toolthat can enrich our lives in
unexpected ways.
(00:42):
Why is today's episode animportant lesson?
The mindfulness of death isn'tabout dwelling on fear.
It's an invitation to embracethe fullness of life.
In this episode, we'll explorehow this ancient practice,
viewed through the lenses ofboth therapy and Theravada
Buddhism, can offer a profoundinsight into the fragility of
(01:03):
life and guide us towards livingwith intention and purpose.
So, before we dive in, rememberto hit that like button,
subscribe and share this podcastwith others who might find
value in these conversations.
Our community is growing andyour support helps us continue
to bring you meaningful content.
Now let's unravel the mysteriesof mindfulness of death
(01:27):
together, hey Zong.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Hey Luke, How's it going?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Doing good.
Doing good and second episodeof the new year of 2024.
And this is a topic that youapproached us with, so I'd love
to kind of hear what spurredthis.
Why did you feel this would bea good topic for us this evening
(01:51):
?
The mindfulness of death.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, quite a heavy topic.
I'm glad Thanks for agreeing todo it, but I do pay attention
to a lot of things that arehappening in my life to bring a
topic and this has been comingup, especially if you are around
recovery community.
They say the longer you staysober, the more general you end
up going to.
So that topic of death has beencoming up.
(02:18):
I lost a friend back in Burmaon Christmas day of 2022.
So it was his anniversary, andthen I found out about another
friend's death one day afterChristmas of 2023.
So, yeah, that's why I came upwith this topic, but I think it
will be therapeutic and also,but the title itself, it's kind
(02:42):
of shocking, you know.
So I think it requires somedisclaimer in terms of, like
that this is not, you know,because it can probably have
some negative connotation,mindfulness of death.
But I think more gentle waywill be mindfulness of
impermanence or mindfulness ofthe uncertainty of life,
something like that.
(03:02):
But because if it's like in atechnical sense, to practice
mindfulness of death, it doesrequire training, experience,
guidance from a monk or somebodywho is well qualified for that.
So, but I just wanted tomention that we'll be
approaching it from a laymanpoint of view, to appreciate
(03:25):
life.
So that's my idea.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
Certainly, the time of year anda season yes, we've gotten
through a lot of this.
You know major Americanholidays it's often a good time
and we've had two recentepisodes with looking at the
past and the previous week, thepresent and the future and but
(03:50):
yeah, I mean really looking atthe fragility of life can really
bring viable insights.
You know it's potentiallyleading to more looking or
highlighting the importance ofintention and purpose and things
like that.
So, yeah, we'll see where we gowith this topic.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, and to provide a little bit of background, the
traditional.
In a traditional sense thiscomes from in a Tidavata
meditation practice.
There are 40 meditation objectsand one of them is death.
And also, traditionally, thereare four protective meditations.
One of them is mindfulness ofdeath.
(04:32):
The other ones are mindfulnessof the qualities of the Buddha,
mindfulness of loving, kindnessand mindfulness of the 32 parts
of the body or the repulsivenature of the body.
So these are supposed to keepus protected.
So that's the tradition.
Mindfulness of death isactually can create protection
(04:54):
around us.
According to the tradition.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
So I think you're explaining how it aligns with,
would you say, some of theBuddhist spiritual teachings.
Is contemplating death a corepractice in Buddhism?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
It is part of the first foundation of mindfulness,
which is the mindfulness of thebody, and then there's a
section about the 32 parts ofthe body and then the
mindfulness of death is part ofthat too.
I think it would be helpful tokind of unpack, because this
will also help us understandwhat mindfulness actually means
(05:33):
in a Buddhist sense, you know,because it's not like thinking
about death all day.
You know, oh yeah, I'm gonnadie, I'm gonna die.
It's more about mindfulness asin bringing attention to the
mind, about the fact that deathis certainly gonna happen and
that death is part of life, andalso when it's gonna happen, why
(05:54):
it's gonna happen and whereit's gonna happen.
It's uncertain, it can happenanytime.
So those are the factors ofbringing mindfulness in terms of
to create urgency, in terms offocusing on the action, to do
wholesome deeds and also avoidunwholesome deeds, to kind of
(06:15):
motivate the practitioner.
So that really is the purposebehind this practice.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
I never thought I could listen to you talk about
death all day.
Tell us more, keep going.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, I mean without getting.
I mean I would like to startwith, on a personal note,
because I mean some of thepeople that I've lost, they do
have children, you know, and soit gets me emotional, but
emotional in a way of likegratitude and also appreciation
that I just it just makes melive present and it makes me
(06:55):
live in the present today, youknow, because it can just go
away, I can just go away or theycan just go away at any point.
So I think that really is theessence and the beauty of
because, you know, we're, in away, protected away from death,
as if it will never happen, butnot to sound negative, but like
(07:15):
it definitely is going to happen, but it can have positive
impact on how I look at today.
You know that, yeah, I can, youknow, die at any point, which
even makes the time that I dohave with my children a lot more
precious, you know, today, yeah, I think you're right now
(07:36):
sharing what our topic ismindfulness of death.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
You're being mindful of hearing about someone,
whether it's in your immediateor your intermediate core of
your life, and when.
How do we not look at in someways, if we're mindful man, this
individual had children.
I have children we begin tolook at the fragility of our own
(08:05):
life and I think, when I thinkof mindfulness of death in a
therapeutic context now, you asa life and recovery coach, in me
as a therapist, I think that'sone thing that I try to help
people do.
If this is where they're at intheir life, if there's a death
in their life, then it's to mein session.
(08:27):
It's how do I help them to bemindful of loss, of grief?
You know, exploring death andone's own thoughts and feelings
about mortality for themselvesor people they know.
And I think this can beadvantageous just to be very
(08:48):
mindful and aware of it.
Because in some way and I saythis almost every time, not so
much for the other people I workwith, but for me, as I'm being
mindful of death and someoneelse's processing theirs I can't
not think about one of myperspectives of death.
(09:09):
It's sometimes I feel so surrealwith it, yet it's the most real
thing that there is.
There are a few guarantees outthere and death is a guarantee
and being mindful and presentwith that for me whether it's me
as a therapist helping someoneelse, or me being mindful of
death in my life, whether it'smy inevitable passing or people
(09:34):
in my life that it feels sosurreal when my human body is
trying to make sense of it.
And I think it's for me aspiritual thing when I'm
experiencing a loss or grief.
And I think it feels so surrealto me because my human body is
(09:58):
trying to understand somethingthat might be spiritual, you
know, but yeah, my therapist'sad is helping others to be
mindful of loss and grief is, Ithink, important.
It's embracing the reality ofour impermanence or other
people's impermanence.
It can lead to a greaterappreciation for our life, for
(10:21):
the people that have passed.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, that's true, and another aspect is also to
live more purposefully and alsointentionally.
That's another personal note.
For me is that this individualwho passed away on the day after
Christmas I was at the meetingto find out about that but also
(10:47):
it's the same meeting where Imet him last time, where he told
me that he's been strugglinghe's still not drinking, but
struggling.
So for me who would havethought that that was my last
interaction with him so itreally makes me appreciate or at
least we never know so it makesthe relationship and the
interactions that we do havewith people a lot more
(11:08):
meaningful and intentional.
What if this is the lastinteraction that I will have?
We never know.
So I'm going to make the bestout of it.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, it's interesting.
There's a part of me that istrying to be mindful of your
experience with the loss in yourlife and how I, as a friend, a
co-host, a person that's on thislife with you and I think of
(11:41):
I'm sorry for your loss.
I don't know if that's anAmerican saying, but I think
American culture in generalsucks that grief and loss and
the mindfulness of death andimpermanence in general.
But how does the Buddhistculture really embrace death and
(12:06):
loss?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah, it's interesting and it's good that
you're pointing that out,because in the Buddhist
cosmology, or in our beliefsystem, there's this thing
called samsara, which is theopposite, or the cycle of
suffering that we're in, whichis not nirvana.
So in that sense I mean it'scyclical, unending, which also
(12:32):
means that we go throughdifferent lives.
So in a way it's not really ofa, it's like a passing from one
life to the next.
It's not like the end in ourculture.
So I think some people even say, to the extent of that, there
hasn't been anybody, we've neverbeen.
We've always been a father, asister.
We have gone through endless,infinite lifetime of different
(12:55):
lives.
So in a way it is a loss, butalso like moving on in our, in
the Buddhist belief system,because there's a cyclical
nature of life and death.
It's not the end.
What about Buddha?
He's gone, he's never goingback.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yeah, and the next Buddha will be the Buddha of
love.
Yeah, love, it's good.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Maitreya.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Maitreya, sorry, a little bit tangent there.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, but I think we can talk about that like the
other aspect, because there aresome facts, as I mentioned
earlier, that we have to bemindful of when it comes to
death, and specifically is that,you know, the certainty of
death that is definitely goingto happen, it's part of life.
That's one fact.
(13:50):
And the other fact is that thecause of death is uncertain.
It can be anywhere, it can befor any reason and it can be
anytime.
That's the second fact.
And then the third fact is thatwe have to leave everything
behind possessions, loved one,relationship.
When the death arrives,everything's left behind.
So those are the four facts,but also a three facts.
(14:15):
And then the fourth fact isactually the actual practice of
living a life, you know, mindfulor right living.
Is that the only thing thatwe're going to bring with is our
action, because in Buddhistphilosophy, it's the chain of
action and reaction that keepsus going.
So, so it really emphasized onthe need for the.
(14:39):
You know, some people have saidthat.
You know there are some peoplewho have lived a really good
life and they're okay dyingtoday.
You know, because they've takenwholesome actions for their
life and they're very proud ofit, you know.
So it creates that urgency that, oh, have I done things that
I'm supposed to do, you know?
So it creates that urgency toaspire to that.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, I think there's four things that you should
just shared with us can put themon top, two polar opposites.
For some it can give them peace, calmness and acceptance, but
maybe for some, if not a lot ofour listeners or just people in
general, they can give people alot of anxiety.
(15:21):
Right, those?
I don't think anything you saidin a general way, people would
disagree with their statementsthat seem, you know, relatively
for sure, factual.
But what would you tell thepeople?
As you, as a life coach, youhelp people with all forms of
(15:44):
life events, death being one ofthem, what would you tell to the
listener or client of yoursthat, especially this first
three examples you gave thatthat give them existential
anxiety or fear?
How would you help them withthat?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
yeah, I don't really share this practice that much or
at all in this culture.
Only if it's appropriate, youknow.
But I think, as I mentioned inthe beginning, the mindfulness
of impermanence is a lot moreprevalent and more approachable.
That, okay, whatever you'refeeling right now is gonna pass.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
You know, things are all impermanent that's like a
version about that's all.
Come on, let's hit it.
It's true, everything you'resaying is true, but it can give
a lot of people anxiety, it cangive people fear and I think,
when you talked about thatfourth one, they can certainly
be a motivator.
Well, okay, let's find purposeand meaning and let's you know.
(16:53):
There we've talked about and inmy therapist said, I talked
about my hierarchy of needs andpurpose and meaning.
Is is one of them, and whetherit's holy crap, I live my life
and what's my purpose, ormidlife crisis, or I don't care
what you want to call it, but ohmy gosh, I've got a finite
amount of time on this roundround rock and you know that can
(17:18):
give people anxiety, that thatdeath.
So, whether it's impermanent oractual death, how do you, how
do we help them?
I'll give the therapistperspective.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
You give the Buddhist perspective yeah, I mean
putting the helpfulness as apriority is important, you know
so that's also another aspect ofBuddhism.
That there is no promotion orthere is no convincing, it's
more of a very verifiable truth.
So there's no forcing of makingsomebody mindful of death, you
(17:49):
know so, it's just somethingthat is if it's fitting.
You know so that that's myapproach to it that if some, if
it's gonna help a client, that'sgreat.
But if I get a sense thatthey're not ready to hear it or
there's no benefit in hearingthat, we can just leave it that
way.
You know, especially we'vetalked about this too about like
(18:13):
in our, in the eight-four path,there's a need for the morality
first before approachinganything else.
So it's not like if I'm in avery unethical place where I've
lied, kill, you know all thesemorality that I've broken if I
think about death, that'sprobably not a good idea.
I might want to end my own life, you know, something like that.
(18:37):
So it needs to be in aparticular state of mind or
condition or in a particularsupport to talk about it yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
So I think that's one way of saying okay, if you're
not in this mindset or thisinsight or higher part of self,
or ready to explore this, thenlet's not trigger this, and it's
kind of like a warning for theepisode.
(19:09):
But yeah, like, like, we do talk.
We just previously talked aboutthat, creating meaning in one's
life or living the morals that,whether it's society, more
importantly, your own morals andvalues towards life if you're
doing so, then facing reality ormortality might be more
(19:34):
palatable.
If you're living the way youwant to, then there might be
more acceptance when there's adeath in your life.
This is not a black and whitestatement, but there may be more
acceptance, or acceptance ofimpermanence, when you're not
(19:57):
lowering your own morals orvalues.
We see that when it comes toaddiction and relapse and
behaviors, that if people keepor continue to break their own
morals and values towards life,well I'm not saying that they
want to have suicidal ideation,but that guilt and shame can
(20:18):
create a downward dark spiralFor the people that might be in
existential crisis.
I'll give you my therapyperspective.
There, literally, is a therapystyle for that and it's called
existential therapy.
Imagine that there's a therapystyle for that In the context of
(20:45):
the way we're explaining it themindfulness of death.
It can provide a unique lensfor individuals to, in a safe
way, explore their concerns andpotentially find meaning in the
face of mortality.
I'll give you some philosophiesor perspectives of existential
(21:09):
therapy.
One is allowing yourself toactually explore the concerns.
An existential therapy reallyencourages individuals to
explore these concerns, whetherit's fear of death, whether it's
freedom or lack thereof.
Isolation here's a big one forpeople.
(21:31):
Meaninglessness, when peoplefeel hopeless or isolated, or
just new sense of purpose andfeeling what's nihilistic or
meaninglessness.
By doing so through a safeenvironment, through therapy or
therapeutic Buddhist lifecoaching that you do, you can
(21:55):
gain insight into their ownvalues and their priorities.
By creating a safe place toexplore these things, it might
not do a dark downward spiraldown.
It might actually do theopposite.
It can be a safe place toexplore this hierarchy of needs.
Where is the value in creatingmeaning in one's life?
(22:20):
Like you said at the beginning,the loss of people in our lives
can make us see not just thefragility but see kind of spark
something in us to go man.
I can't take this for granted.
That's a big one.
So existential therapy there'sjust two 10-bits of it that can
(22:44):
really connect and groundgrounding.
Let's talk about grounding.
It's nuanced when it comesexistential therapy, but in the
context of that we'reassociating, helping individuals
connect with their presentexperiences and foster
self-awareness and engage withtheir lived reality.
(23:04):
I like to call it the greatreality that when we can tap
into not just the fear of thingsbut really fostering the growth
and the actual beautifulself-awareness reality, it can
lead to more meaning and purposeand growth.
So existential anxiety and fearof death can be, at minimal,
(23:34):
anxiety provoking, but there'stherapeutic techniques to help
people when they're goingthrough this level of fear, and
the word that popped in my mindis self burden and doubt.
What do you think so?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Hmm, yeah, those are all very relevant and it just
makes me think about the kind oflike extracting the essence out
of all the practices is, youknow, maybe too much of a
simplification, but like not todilute the truth, to live out of
, to live away from delusion, tosee the truth.
(24:09):
So my death is the truth, youknow.
But but at the same time, kindof Navigating with the idea of
paying attention.
You know, my approach to life,and also with people that I work
with, is also that If it's likeit's, if the life is not
difficult, I don't need to makeit difficult.
You know there's no need butmore about paying attention to
(24:32):
what shows up.
So if death is not showing up, Idon't need to like go look for
it.
You know, to create anxiety,but the way I look at it, as
this topic came up, is thatdeath has been coming up.
So there's a reason for me,from my personal Higher power
point of view, that there's amessage, you know.
So it's also, yeah, beingmindful of what is showing up
(24:56):
and then making a practice outof it instead of, well, I'm
living a very happy life, butlet me just think about death.
To make it difficult.
You know, this is not like that, but to see truth as it shows
up.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Hmm, yes, good, you gave us those, those four things
in the beginning.
Can you give us anotherperspective, whether it's
Anything in terms of their vatedBuddhism, that, whether it
acknowledges or reinforces thethings that you're sharing with
us today?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yeah, so there's also I think it's more related to
the 32 parts of the body.
I think the term is a tuba,which means corpse.
So mindfulness is of corpse, isalso related to mindfulness of
death.
So the practice itself is tovisualize the death of my body
(25:52):
and then visualizing thelifeless body, and that's part
of the practice.
So then you can even time speedit to like Degeneration of the
body by being eaten by worms.
It's very vivid and visual, butat the same time it's supposed
to.
For me, like when I do that, itreally Creates the appreciation
(26:12):
of the spirit, because if Ithink about Myself, a life, and
then that visualization of thedead body, that that's my
destiny one day.
But also it really pronouncedthe essence of the spirit, that
there is some kind of spirithappening.
Oh, it's more about theappreciation of life that we do.
So that's also another Practicein the tradition to visualize
(26:37):
the death and then even to thepoint of like turning into a
dust.
You know, much later.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
It's funny as, as an American, internally I might I
think we're doing video for thisone, like I might poker face
when you're talking.
But the internally I mightgoing oh god, where's he going
with this morbid?
This morbid talk about isrotting flash right.
But as you share the cultureand the Buddhist spiritual
(27:10):
Belief behind this reality andthis impermanence of Living and
then and death, wow, it'sactually beautiful, you know,
and it's just so neat howDifferent cultures and spiritual
Beliefs can can have Beautifuland mindful and different Values
(27:33):
of Understanding and acceptingand being with Death and grief
and loss and the mindfulnessthat comes with it.
So that's a Didn't know whereyou're going with it at first
but and uh, I'm glad you sharedit.
Yeah, I don't think peoplewould talk about it explicitly.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
But I think there is an underlying essence of that
mindfulness of death in any kindof, you know, I think, all
living or just philosophy ingeneral.
It's pretty much about the factthat, about the fact that, um,
yeah, I don't know like the theessence of just being present,
(28:16):
you know, like death isdefinitely there.
So I mean also another personalthing is that I've always been
afraid of the death of myparents, like that's one of the
biggest fear, but then it'sstill true that they're gonna
die one day.
But like, how I think about itis so different now, you know.
So it's not that it will neverhappen, it will happen and I
(28:39):
will feel the feelings and itwon't be pleasant, but at the
same time I'm at a place where Iaccept it, you know.
So for me that's like thegrowth from the place of fear
that I don't want to think aboutit at all, to like, oh, I can
think about it and that willhappen one day and I can deal
with the feelings when thatcomes.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, there's many times that I've worked with
people and they've had thismindfulness of death and their
family members there often theirparents or their siblings and
it often leads to this fear ofunfinished or relationships that
(29:19):
are mended, or worried thatthey don't have better
relationships with theirsiblings or parents.
And often in our sessions themindfulness of death leads to a
mindfulness of living and, asyou shared in the beginning,
maybe a kickstart to make somechanges in their life, so that
(29:44):
way it doesn't lead to maybeunnecessary suffering for the
time left that they have withtheir loved ones, and sometimes
it might be the fear of death orjust the mindfulness that comes
with inevitable death leads tochanges in people's lives and
(30:06):
that's pretty beautiful.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah, what a topic, what a topic yeah, Maybe we can
explore more into the otheraspect of it.
You know, without being tooexplicit, but this is very, very
explicit.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Yeah, yes, it's good.
Maybe we'll put some I mightput a warning on the episode
notes.
It wasn't too bad.
It wasn't too bad.
Yeah, thanks for bringing upthis topic and we'll explore
some other aspects of it, I'msure, in the future.
As we draw the curtain ontoday's exploration, we extend
(30:47):
our deepest gratitude forjoining us on this introspective
journey.
The mindfulness of death viewedthrough the lens of this
therapist, and that Theravada,buddhist Life and Recovery Coach
, isn't about dwelling onendings.
It's a powerful reminder tocherish each moment and live
authentically.
We hope the insights sharedtoday resonate with you,
(31:07):
sparking contemplation andinspiring intentional living.
If you found value in ourconversation, don't forget to
hit that like button, subscribefor more enlightening
discussions and share thiswisdom with your community.
Remember, growth is acollective journey and we're
grateful to have you as part ofour collective community.
Until next time, embrace thepresent, nurture your well-being
(31:30):
, and may each day be a steptowards a more mindful and
purposeful existence.
Stay well and stay mindful.
My name is Lu.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
This is all.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
See you next time.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Thanks.
Welcome, dear listeners, to another episode of
A Therapist, a Buddhist in you,brought to you by the Recovery
Collective and the Natless Mere.
This is where we explore thedepths of human experience
through the lens of ballisticwell-being.
We are your host, luke Gonzal,and today we bring you the topic
that might be consideredunconventional but holds
profound wisdom the mindfulnessof death.
(00:20):
In a world bustling with thenoise of daily life,
contemplating our mortalityoften takes a backseat.
However, as we unravel thelayers of this often overlooked
aspect, we discover thatmindfulness of death isn't a
morbid exploration, but a toolthat can enrich our lives in
unexpected ways.
(00:42):
Why is today's episode animportant lesson?
The mindfulness of death isn'tabout dwelling on fear.
It's an invitation to embracethe fullness of life.
In this episode, we'll explorehow this ancient practice,
viewed through the lenses ofboth therapy and Theravada
Buddhism, can offer a profoundinsight into the fragility of
(01:03):
life and guide us towards livingwith intention and purpose.
So, before we dive in, rememberto hit that like button,
subscribe and share this podcastwith others who might find
value in these conversations.
Our community is growing andyour support helps us continue
to bring you meaningful content.
Now let's unravel the mysteriesof mindfulness of death
(01:27):
together, hey Zong.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Hey Luke, How's it going?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Doing good.
Doing good and second episodeof the new year of 2024.
And this is a topic that youapproached us with, so I'd love
to kind of hear what spurredthis.
Why did you feel this would bea good topic for us this evening
(01:51):
?
The mindfulness of death.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, quite a heavy topic.
I'm glad Thanks for agreeing todo it, but I do pay attention
to a lot of things that arehappening in my life to bring a
topic and this has been comingup, especially if you are around
recovery community.
They say the longer you staysober, the more general you end
up going to.
So that topic of death has beencoming up.
(02:18):
I lost a friend back in Burmaon Christmas day of 2022.
So it was his anniversary, andthen I found out about another
friend's death one day afterChristmas of 2023.
So, yeah, that's why I came upwith this topic, but I think it
will be therapeutic and also,but the title itself, it's kind
(02:42):
of shocking, you know.
So I think it requires somedisclaimer in terms of, like
that this is not, you know,because it can probably have
some negative connotation,mindfulness of death.
But I think more gentle waywill be mindfulness of
impermanence or mindfulness ofthe uncertainty of life,
something like that.
(03:02):
But because if it's like in atechnical sense, to practice
mindfulness of death, it doesrequire training, experience,
guidance from a monk or somebodywho is well qualified for that.
So, but I just wanted tomention that we'll be
approaching it from a laymanpoint of view, to appreciate
(03:25):
life.
So that's my idea.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
Certainly, the time of year anda season yes, we've gotten
through a lot of this.
You know major Americanholidays it's often a good time
and we've had two recentepisodes with looking at the
past and the previous week, thepresent and the future and but
(03:50):
yeah, I mean really looking atthe fragility of life can really
bring viable insights.
You know it's potentiallyleading to more looking or
highlighting the importance ofintention and purpose and things
like that.
So, yeah, we'll see where we gowith this topic.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, and to provide a little bit of background, the
traditional.
In a traditional sense thiscomes from in a Tidavata
meditation practice.
There are 40 meditation objectsand one of them is death.
And also, traditionally, thereare four protective meditations.
One of them is mindfulness ofdeath.
(04:32):
The other ones are mindfulnessof the qualities of the Buddha,
mindfulness of loving, kindnessand mindfulness of the 32 parts
of the body or the repulsivenature of the body.
So these are supposed to keepus protected.
So that's the tradition.
Mindfulness of death isactually can create protection
(04:54):
around us.
According to the tradition.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
So I think you're explaining how it aligns with,
would you say, some of theBuddhist spiritual teachings.
Is contemplating death a corepractice in Buddhism?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
It is part of the first foundation of mindfulness,
which is the mindfulness of thebody, and then there's a
section about the 32 parts ofthe body and then the
mindfulness of death is part ofthat too.
I think it would be helpful tokind of unpack, because this
will also help us understandwhat mindfulness actually means
(05:33):
in a Buddhist sense, you know,because it's not like thinking
about death all day.
You know, oh yeah, I'm gonnadie, I'm gonna die.
It's more about mindfulness asin bringing attention to the
mind, about the fact that deathis certainly gonna happen and
that death is part of life, andalso when it's gonna happen, why
(05:54):
it's gonna happen and whereit's gonna happen.
It's uncertain, it can happenanytime.
So those are the factors ofbringing mindfulness in terms of
to create urgency, in terms offocusing on the action, to do
wholesome deeds and also avoidunwholesome deeds, to kind of
(06:15):
motivate the practitioner.
So that really is the purposebehind this practice.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
I never thought I could listen to you talk about
death all day.
Tell us more, keep going.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, I mean without getting.
I mean I would like to startwith, on a personal note,
because I mean some of thepeople that I've lost, they do
have children, you know, and soit gets me emotional, but
emotional in a way of likegratitude and also appreciation
that I just it just makes melive present and it makes me
(06:55):
live in the present today, youknow, because it can just go
away, I can just go away or theycan just go away at any point.
So I think that really is theessence and the beauty of
because, you know, we're, in away, protected away from death,
as if it will never happen, butnot to sound negative, but like
(07:15):
it definitely is going to happen, but it can have positive
impact on how I look at today.
You know that, yeah, I can, youknow, die at any point, which
even makes the time that I dohave with my children a lot more
precious, you know, today, yeah, I think you're right now
(07:36):
sharing what our topic ismindfulness of death.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
You're being mindful of hearing about someone,
whether it's in your immediateor your intermediate core of
your life, and when.
How do we not look at in someways, if we're mindful man, this
individual had children.
I have children we begin tolook at the fragility of our own
(08:05):
life and I think, when I thinkof mindfulness of death in a
therapeutic context now, you asa life and recovery coach, in me
as a therapist, I think that'sone thing that I try to help
people do.
If this is where they're at intheir life, if there's a death
in their life, then it's to mein session.
(08:27):
It's how do I help them to bemindful of loss, of grief?
You know, exploring death andone's own thoughts and feelings
about mortality for themselvesor people they know.
And I think this can beadvantageous just to be very
(08:48):
mindful and aware of it.
Because in some way and I saythis almost every time, not so
much for the other people I workwith, but for me, as I'm being
mindful of death and someoneelse's processing theirs I can't
not think about one of myperspectives of death.
(09:09):
It's sometimes I feel so surrealwith it, yet it's the most real
thing that there is.
There are a few guarantees outthere and death is a guarantee
and being mindful and presentwith that for me whether it's me
as a therapist helping someoneelse, or me being mindful of
death in my life, whether it'smy inevitable passing or people
(09:34):
in my life that it feels sosurreal when my human body is
trying to make sense of it.
And I think it's for me aspiritual thing when I'm
experiencing a loss or grief.
And I think it feels so surrealto me because my human body is
(09:58):
trying to understand somethingthat might be spiritual, you
know, but yeah, my therapist'sad is helping others to be
mindful of loss and grief is, Ithink, important.
It's embracing the reality ofour impermanence or other
people's impermanence.
It can lead to a greaterappreciation for our life, for
(10:21):
the people that have passed.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, that's true, and another aspect is also to
live more purposefully and alsointentionally.
That's another personal note.
For me is that this individualwho passed away on the day after
Christmas I was at the meetingto find out about that but also
(10:47):
it's the same meeting where Imet him last time, where he told
me that he's been strugglinghe's still not drinking, but
struggling.
So for me who would havethought that that was my last
interaction with him so itreally makes me appreciate or at
least we never know so it makesthe relationship and the
interactions that we do havewith people a lot more
(11:08):
meaningful and intentional.
What if this is the lastinteraction that I will have?
We never know.
So I'm going to make the bestout of it.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, it's interesting.
There's a part of me that istrying to be mindful of your
experience with the loss in yourlife and how I, as a friend, a
co-host, a person that's on thislife with you and I think of
(11:41):
I'm sorry for your loss.
I don't know if that's anAmerican saying, but I think
American culture in generalsucks that grief and loss and
the mindfulness of death andimpermanence in general.
But how does the Buddhistculture really embrace death and
(12:06):
loss?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah, it's interesting and it's good that
you're pointing that out,because in the Buddhist
cosmology, or in our beliefsystem, there's this thing
called samsara, which is theopposite, or the cycle of
suffering that we're in, whichis not nirvana.
So in that sense I mean it'scyclical, unending, which also
(12:32):
means that we go throughdifferent lives.
So in a way it's not really ofa, it's like a passing from one
life to the next.
It's not like the end in ourculture.
So I think some people even say, to the extent of that, there
hasn't been anybody, we've neverbeen.
We've always been a father, asister.
We have gone through endless,infinite lifetime of different
(12:55):
lives.
So in a way it is a loss, butalso like moving on in our, in
the Buddhist belief system,because there's a cyclical
nature of life and death.
It's not the end.
What about Buddha?
He's gone, he's never goingback.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yeah, and the next Buddha will be the Buddha of
love.
Yeah, love, it's good.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Maitreya.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Maitreya, sorry, a little bit tangent there.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, but I think we can talk about that like the
other aspect, because there aresome facts, as I mentioned
earlier, that we have to bemindful of when it comes to
death, and specifically is that,you know, the certainty of
death that is definitely goingto happen, it's part of life.
That's one fact.
(13:50):
And the other fact is that thecause of death is uncertain.
It can be anywhere, it can befor any reason and it can be
anytime.
That's the second fact.
And then the third fact is thatwe have to leave everything
behind possessions, loved one,relationship.
When the death arrives,everything's left behind.
So those are the four facts,but also a three facts.
(14:15):
And then the fourth fact isactually the actual practice of
living a life, you know, mindfulor right living.
Is that the only thing thatwe're going to bring with is our
action, because in Buddhistphilosophy, it's the chain of
action and reaction that keepsus going.
So, so it really emphasized onthe need for the.
(14:39):
You know, some people have saidthat.
You know there are some peoplewho have lived a really good
life and they're okay dyingtoday.
You know, because they've takenwholesome actions for their
life and they're very proud ofit, you know.
So it creates that urgency that, oh, have I done things that
I'm supposed to do, you know?
So it creates that urgency toaspire to that.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, I think there's four things that you should
just shared with us can put themon top, two polar opposites.
For some it can give them peace, calmness and acceptance, but
maybe for some, if not a lot ofour listeners or just people in
general, they can give people alot of anxiety.
(15:21):
Right, those?
I don't think anything you saidin a general way, people would
disagree with their statementsthat seem, you know, relatively
for sure, factual.
But what would you tell thepeople?
As you, as a life coach, youhelp people with all forms of
(15:44):
life events, death being one ofthem, what would you tell to the
listener or client of yoursthat, especially this first
three examples you gave thatthat give them existential
anxiety or fear?
How would you help them withthat?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
yeah, I don't really share this practice that much or
at all in this culture.
Only if it's appropriate, youknow.
But I think, as I mentioned inthe beginning, the mindfulness
of impermanence is a lot moreprevalent and more approachable.
That, okay, whatever you'refeeling right now is gonna pass.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
You know, things are all impermanent that's like a
version about that's all.
Come on, let's hit it.
It's true, everything you'resaying is true, but it can give
a lot of people anxiety, it cangive people fear and I think,
when you talked about thatfourth one, they can certainly
be a motivator.
Well, okay, let's find purposeand meaning and let's you know.
(16:53):
There we've talked about and inmy therapist said, I talked
about my hierarchy of needs andpurpose and meaning.
Is is one of them, and whetherit's holy crap, I live my life
and what's my purpose, ormidlife crisis, or I don't care
what you want to call it, but ohmy gosh, I've got a finite
amount of time on this roundround rock and you know that can
(17:18):
give people anxiety, that thatdeath.
So, whether it's impermanent oractual death, how do you, how
do we help them?
I'll give the therapistperspective.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
You give the Buddhist perspective yeah, I mean
putting the helpfulness as apriority is important, you know
so that's also another aspect ofBuddhism.
That there is no promotion orthere is no convincing, it's
more of a very verifiable truth.
So there's no forcing of makingsomebody mindful of death, you
(17:49):
know so, it's just somethingthat is if it's fitting.
You know so that that's myapproach to it that if some, if
it's gonna help a client, that'sgreat.
But if I get a sense thatthey're not ready to hear it or
there's no benefit in hearingthat, we can just leave it that
way.
You know, especially we'vetalked about this too about like
(18:13):
in our, in the eight-four path,there's a need for the morality
first before approachinganything else.
So it's not like if I'm in avery unethical place where I've
lied, kill, you know all thesemorality that I've broken if I
think about death, that'sprobably not a good idea.
I might want to end my own life, you know, something like that.
(18:37):
So it needs to be in aparticular state of mind or
condition or in a particularsupport to talk about it yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
So I think that's one way of saying okay, if you're
not in this mindset or thisinsight or higher part of self,
or ready to explore this, thenlet's not trigger this, and it's
kind of like a warning for theepisode.
(19:09):
But yeah, like, like, we do talk.
We just previously talked aboutthat, creating meaning in one's
life or living the morals that,whether it's society, more
importantly, your own morals andvalues towards life if you're
doing so, then facing reality ormortality might be more
(19:34):
palatable.
If you're living the way youwant to, then there might be
more acceptance when there's adeath in your life.
This is not a black and whitestatement, but there may be more
acceptance, or acceptance ofimpermanence, when you're not
(19:57):
lowering your own morals orvalues.
We see that when it comes toaddiction and relapse and
behaviors, that if people keepor continue to break their own
morals and values towards life,well I'm not saying that they
want to have suicidal ideation,but that guilt and shame can
(20:18):
create a downward dark spiralFor the people that might be in
existential crisis.
I'll give you my therapyperspective.
There, literally, is a therapystyle for that and it's called
existential therapy.
Imagine that there's a therapystyle for that In the context of
(20:45):
the way we're explaining it themindfulness of death.
It can provide a unique lensfor individuals to, in a safe
way, explore their concerns andpotentially find meaning in the
face of mortality.
I'll give you some philosophiesor perspectives of existential
(21:09):
therapy.
One is allowing yourself toactually explore the concerns.
An existential therapy reallyencourages individuals to
explore these concerns, whetherit's fear of death, whether it's
freedom or lack thereof.
Isolation here's a big one forpeople.
(21:31):
Meaninglessness, when peoplefeel hopeless or isolated, or
just new sense of purpose andfeeling what's nihilistic or
meaninglessness.
By doing so through a safeenvironment, through therapy or
therapeutic Buddhist lifecoaching that you do, you can
(21:55):
gain insight into their ownvalues and their priorities.
By creating a safe place toexplore these things, it might
not do a dark downward spiraldown.
It might actually do theopposite.
It can be a safe place toexplore this hierarchy of needs.
Where is the value in creatingmeaning in one's life?
(22:20):
Like you said at the beginning,the loss of people in our lives
can make us see not just thefragility but see kind of spark
something in us to go man.
I can't take this for granted.
That's a big one.
So existential therapy there'sjust two 10-bits of it that can
(22:44):
really connect and groundgrounding.
Let's talk about grounding.
It's nuanced when it comesexistential therapy, but in the
context of that we'reassociating, helping individuals
connect with their presentexperiences and foster
self-awareness and engage withtheir lived reality.
(23:04):
I like to call it the greatreality that when we can tap
into not just the fear of thingsbut really fostering the growth
and the actual beautifulself-awareness reality, it can
lead to more meaning and purposeand growth.
So existential anxiety and fearof death can be, at minimal,
(23:34):
anxiety provoking, but there'stherapeutic techniques to help
people when they're goingthrough this level of fear, and
the word that popped in my mindis self burden and doubt.
What do you think so?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Hmm, yeah, those are all very relevant and it just
makes me think about the kind oflike extracting the essence out
of all the practices is, youknow, maybe too much of a
simplification, but like not todilute the truth, to live out of
, to live away from delusion, tosee the truth.
(24:09):
So my death is the truth, youknow.
But but at the same time, kindof Navigating with the idea of
paying attention.
You know, my approach to life,and also with people that I work
with, is also that If it's likeit's, if the life is not
difficult, I don't need to makeit difficult.
You know there's no need butmore about paying attention to
(24:32):
what shows up.
So if death is not showing up, Idon't need to like go look for
it.
You know, to create anxiety,but the way I look at it, as
this topic came up, is thatdeath has been coming up.
So there's a reason for me,from my personal Higher power
point of view, that there's amessage, you know.
So it's also, yeah, beingmindful of what is showing up
(24:56):
and then making a practice outof it instead of, well, I'm
living a very happy life, butlet me just think about death.
To make it difficult.
You know, this is not like that, but to see truth as it shows
up.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Hmm, yes, good, you gave us those, those four things
in the beginning.
Can you give us anotherperspective, whether it's
Anything in terms of their vatedBuddhism, that, whether it
acknowledges or reinforces thethings that you're sharing with
us today?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yeah, so there's also I think it's more related to
the 32 parts of the body.
I think the term is a tuba,which means corpse.
So mindfulness is of corpse, isalso related to mindfulness of
death.
So the practice itself is tovisualize the death of my body
(25:52):
and then visualizing thelifeless body, and that's part
of the practice.
So then you can even time speedit to like Degeneration of the
body by being eaten by worms.
It's very vivid and visual, butat the same time it's supposed
to.
For me, like when I do that, itreally Creates the appreciation
(26:12):
of the spirit, because if Ithink about Myself, a life, and
then that visualization of thedead body, that that's my
destiny one day.
But also it really pronouncedthe essence of the spirit, that
there is some kind of spirithappening.
Oh, it's more about theappreciation of life that we do.
So that's also another Practicein the tradition to visualize
(26:37):
the death and then even to thepoint of like turning into a
dust.
You know, much later.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
It's funny as, as an American, internally I might I
think we're doing video for thisone, like I might poker face
when you're talking.
But the internally I mightgoing oh god, where's he going
with this morbid?
This morbid talk about isrotting flash right.
But as you share the cultureand the Buddhist spiritual
(27:10):
Belief behind this reality andthis impermanence of Living and
then and death, wow, it'sactually beautiful, you know,
and it's just so neat howDifferent cultures and spiritual
Beliefs can can have Beautifuland mindful and different Values
(27:33):
of Understanding and acceptingand being with Death and grief
and loss and the mindfulnessthat comes with it.
So that's a Didn't know whereyou're going with it at first
but and uh, I'm glad you sharedit.
Yeah, I don't think peoplewould talk about it explicitly.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
But I think there is an underlying essence of that
mindfulness of death in any kindof, you know, I think, all
living or just philosophy ingeneral.
It's pretty much about the factthat, about the fact that, um,
yeah, I don't know like the theessence of just being present,
(28:16):
you know, like death isdefinitely there.
So I mean also another personalthing is that I've always been
afraid of the death of myparents, like that's one of the
biggest fear, but then it'sstill true that they're gonna
die one day.
But like, how I think about itis so different now, you know.
So it's not that it will neverhappen, it will happen and I
(28:39):
will feel the feelings and itwon't be pleasant, but at the
same time I'm at a place where Iaccept it, you know.
So for me that's like thegrowth from the place of fear
that I don't want to think aboutit at all, to like, oh, I can
think about it and that willhappen one day and I can deal
with the feelings when thatcomes.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, there's many times that I've worked with
people and they've had thismindfulness of death and their
family members there often theirparents or their siblings and
it often leads to this fear ofunfinished or relationships that
(29:19):
are mended, or worried thatthey don't have better
relationships with theirsiblings or parents.
And often in our sessions themindfulness of death leads to a
mindfulness of living and, asyou shared in the beginning,
maybe a kickstart to make somechanges in their life, so that
(29:44):
way it doesn't lead to maybeunnecessary suffering for the
time left that they have withtheir loved ones, and sometimes
it might be the fear of death orjust the mindfulness that comes
with inevitable death leads tochanges in people's lives and
(30:06):
that's pretty beautiful.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah, what a topic, what a topic yeah, Maybe we can
explore more into the otheraspect of it.
You know, without being tooexplicit, but this is very, very
explicit.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Yeah, yes, it's good.
Maybe we'll put some I mightput a warning on the episode
notes.
It wasn't too bad.
It wasn't too bad.
Yeah, thanks for bringing upthis topic and we'll explore
some other aspects of it, I'msure, in the future.
As we draw the curtain ontoday's exploration, we extend
(30:47):
our deepest gratitude forjoining us on this introspective
journey.
The mindfulness of death viewedthrough the lens of this
therapist, and that Theravada,buddhist Life and Recovery Coach
, isn't about dwelling onendings.
It's a powerful reminder tocherish each moment and live
authentically.
We hope the insights sharedtoday resonate with you,
(31:07):
sparking contemplation andinspiring intentional living.
If you found value in ourconversation, don't forget to
hit that like button, subscribefor more enlightening
discussions and share thiswisdom with your community.
Remember, growth is acollective journey and we're
grateful to have you as part ofour collective community.
Until next time, embrace thepresent, nurture your well-being
(31:30):
, and may each day be a steptowards a more mindful and
purposeful existence.
Stay well and stay mindful.
My name is Lu.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
This is all.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
See you next time.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Thanks.
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