What if you could unlock the power of healing and self-discovery through a unique relationship with one of nature's most majestic creatures? That's exactly what we reveal in this conversation with Courtney Jones, an experienced mental health and trauma-informed therapist who passionately advocates for the incredible benefits of equine therapy.
Together, we delve into the world of equine therapy, unearthing the profound connection between these sensitive animals and individuals who have experienced trauma or are struggling with mental health issues. Can horses read minds...or your spirit?! We discuss the fantastic ability of horses to mirror our emotions and provide insights into our feelings and experiences. Throughout the episode, we emphasize the importance of trust, partnership, and mindfulness in fostering a successful therapeutic relationship between the equine and the individual.
Don't miss this opportunity to learn more about the transformative power of equine therapy and mirror neurons! Whether seeking healing from past trauma or simply seeking a deeper understanding of yourself, this heartfelt conversation with Courtney Jones offers valuable insights and inspiration. Join us as we embark on a journey to self-discovery and growth through the incredible world of healing with horses.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to A Therapist of Buddhist Youth, the
podcast where we embark on atransformative journey of
self-discovery and collectivegrowth.
I'm your host, Luke DeBoy, atherapist with a passion for all
things related to health andwellness.
I'm thrilled to introduce ourco-host, the embodiment of
serenity.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm thrilled to be here too.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Zal brings his profound wisdom and
compassionate nature as aBuddhist practitioner to our
enlightening adventure.
Together, we delve into afascinating intersection of
psychology, spirituality and allthings health and wellness.
We hope you're ready to explorethe depths of human experience
and unlock practical insightsthat can enhance your well-being
.
So join us as we engage inthought-provoking discussions,
(00:56):
share personal stories andconnect with us, who will impart
their own profound wisdom.
Our aim is to provide you withvaluable tools, strategies and
perspectives that can empoweryou on your own path to
self-discovery and growth.
Through our heartfeltconversations and shared
experience, we'll navigate thecomplexities of life, uncovering
the secrets to holisticwell-being.
So whether you're seekingmental clarity, spiritual
(01:18):
nourishment or practicalguidance, a therapist and
Buddhist in you is your trustedcompanion.
So tune in and, as always,please like, follow, subscribe.
Whether it's a bell, a plus,we're on YouTube now.
Please do so so that way we cankeep growing our community and
share with other people.
So today, Zal, we're talkingabout healing with horses and
(01:40):
the benefits of equine therapy.
We're going to explore theincredible world of equine
therapy and its benefits formental health, trauma and so
much more.
These have been used forcenturies as working animals,
but they've also becomerecognized as powerful healers
in recent years.
Today we'll dive deep into thetopic with an expert.
We'll discuss equine therapy,how it works and the specific
(02:03):
benefits it can have forindividuals who have experienced
trauma or are struggling withmental health issues.
So whether you're a horse loveror just curious about
alternative forms of therapy,you won't want to miss this
episode.
So today we're bringing onCourtney Jones.
She's a highly respected andexperienced mental health and
trauma therapist based in GlenBernie, maryland.
(02:25):
With her a decade of experienceworking in the field, courtney
is a trusted voice in traumatherapy.
She is dedicated to helpingindividuals heal and grow from
different life experiences.
As the Bay Area Counseling andConsultation owner, courtney
provides services to support herclients, including individual
and group therapy, traumatreatment and equine and animal
assisted therapy.
(02:46):
Courtney's commitment toexcellence in her field is
reflected in her impressivecredentials, which does include
master's degree in social workfrom the University of Maryland
School of Social Work, as wellas a certified clinical trauma
professional and a certifiedequine partnered psychotherapist
and learning facilitator.
I believe I said that rightThrough her work with Bay Area
(03:06):
Counseling and Consultation,courtney has helped countless
individuals find healing andempowerment through equine
therapy.
She passionately advocates forthis powerful approach to mental
health and well-being, which iswhy we asked her to join today.
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, welcome.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Thanks for joining us .
So very glad that you are heretoday, courtney.
So equine therapy do we go bigor small for us?
I guess we'll go.
Oh, how does it work in general?
And then we'll fine tune it.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Well, go ahead and saddle up.
How does it work?
That is a really awesomequestion.
So equine assistedpsychotherapy in partnership
with equines is really how itworks.
So I think the mindset is goinginto a relationship with
(04:05):
equines instead of trying to usethem as tools.
So that's one of the biggestplatforms that I share with
patients is like this is apartnership.
So if I were to have anothercolleague in the room, you know,
to help with your mental health, this is kind of my colleague
for the day, this is ourcolleague, so this is the other
(04:25):
therapist that's going to be inthe room.
Same thing with my caninecompanion, leona.
It's the exact same thing whenwe do sessions together.
She's a partner So Lucky and Ipartner together.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
So it sets it up for, i guess, a deeper connection,
and not just this thing.
It's an animal, it's arelationship.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Oh, 100%.
Yeah, All equine work isrelational 100%.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I imagine I'm thinking about my own
experiences with equine therapy,knowing that and believing that
, but not necessarilycomfortable with that
relationship at first.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Yeah, the therapist in me wants to say tell me more
about that.
Yeah, i think that that'sreally common.
I think a lot of times, peopleare really intimidated by just
the general size of equines,which is something to work with,
for sure.
But at the end of the day, it'sreally breaking down the
nuances to what equines bring tothat relationship and, simply
put, we're predators in theirprey.
(05:20):
They are herd animals.
We pull one out of their herdto come and partner with us.
It's very intentional work thatthey are also contributing to.
You know, because they don'thave, they don't.
They could choose not to work,they could choose to cry, call
out for their herd, they couldbuck, they could run away, but
they are also part of thatequation.
(05:41):
They want to participate.
It's cool.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, i'm really, yeah, i was really looking
forward to this conversation AndI have a lot of questions and
also reflecting on my ownexperience too.
But first thought that comes tomind as we're starting the
conversation is about howhealing happens, you know, when
there is a connection, but alsothe opposite is true when I'm
(06:04):
closed off.
So I'm curious how that processis like when you're helping a
client, or in your ownexperience too, that you know an
animal does not talk, but thenthere is the existence, the
energy, life force behind it,and then you can connect to it.
I have a very limitedexperience, but like they really
reflect your emotional stateand which is cool, because I
(06:26):
don't have that access to myselfsometimes, you know.
So I want to know more aboutthat.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I love that you're bringing that up, because that's
how it is sometimes.
You know, equine assistedtherapy has taught me so much
about myself and what I bringinto the session and how I am
too, and, simply put, the reasonthat equines mirror our
emotions is because they havewhat we have mirror neurons.
What they lack, which is kindof like a gift, is the
(06:53):
prefrontal cortex to distinguishwhy they're feeling the way
that they're feeling.
So they literally mirror whatwe bring into the session.
And so for someone who isclosed off, you know our equine
partner is going to mirror thatback, so they might not engage.
They might have their back toyou the whole time.
You might walk over to them,they might walk away, but if
you're open, your equine mirrorsthat as well and comes over to
(07:15):
you in partnership.
It's fascinating stuff and it'samazing to watch it unfold too,
and you can talk about thepower of it all day, but until
you experience it it's a wholedifferent world.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, that's a powerful opening, you know,
because that model is true forlife too.
Right, Like I would think that,why are all these things
happening to me?
You know, life is happening tome, but it's actually a
reflection of what's happeninginside.
So I love that because, yeah, Idid have an experience with
some horses while I was intreatment this last time And it
(07:50):
was really we did it with agroup and it's crazy how the
same horse reflects differentlyto like five different people.
You know And it wasn't aboutthe robe, but it's more about
the way we were guided is thatyou pay attention, you know,
kind of communicate with thehorse and then she will follow
the lead.
It's not about the robe, butmore the intention behind it,
you know.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
It's like there's no playing poker, or if you are
playing poker, it'll play itback.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Yes, and we have a lot of folks I have the
privilege of working with andthat's something that we get to
see acting out like it goes livewith that, where someone will
tell us one thing but that's nothow they're feeling, and so the
horse reflects back what isreally going on in that
intention and that gives us areally great platform to discuss
what's going on.
(08:35):
I have a good example of this.
Actually, we were doing a groupand you know this modality is
relatively new to me, so I'mstill so much, you know, a
teacher and a student all thetime.
But there were two participantsand myself and the horse was
kind of just walking away andreally just not wanting to
(08:57):
engage, kind of shifty, and theother equine specialist said
who's nervous here?
And the two people were likenot me, not me, and I was.
I had to walk away because thishorse was really mirroring my
energy and go take a couple deepbreaths before I rejoined.
You know that pot of folks.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So you talk about mirror neurons, that we mirror
things as children, we mirrorour family.
So talk about that energyconnection and I don't know how
you explain that, but obviouslythe horse has picked up on that
How?
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Oh, man, okay, so I guess the best way I can
describe it is just to talk alittle bit about equine biology.
You know so equines have a verygreat sense of smell.
They've been used, you know, toseek out water, you know, for
centuries.
That's, you know, one of thejobs they had.
Real quick little sidebar too.
(09:54):
Equines can also help findpeople that are lost.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
They can do search and rescue.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
They have the same amount of olfactory Yep, gr, sus
.
They have the same amount ofcolor cones as canines do to,
which is really interesting.
but the most interesting factis equines are huge animals.
They are about 50 million timeslarger than a fly that will
land on them, but they can feelthat.
(10:21):
So, to put that intoperspective, for us it would be
like a dandelion seed falling onmy hand and me being able to
feel that we can't, and so justthink about the energy that we
emit as humans and theirsensitivity to that.
So anytime we go into a session, anytime before I ride, anytime
(10:41):
before I greet an equine andask, you know, consent to come
into their space, anytime beforeI have a session, no matter
what we're going to be talkingabout, we try to center our
energy to be respective of howsensitive they are.
Isn't that amazing?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
It takes me back to my first equine experience,
where we're in the pen.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
There was two of us in there and the horse was by
the fence and we were on theback middle and the equine
therapist just said well, whydon't you try to ground yourself
and take a couple breaths?
and the person I was in therewith we both did it in a matter
of 15 seconds just did thatexhale and allowed myself to be
present or grounded.
That horse came right over.
(11:24):
Every time.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
We did a group.
We did a group not too long agoand it was an over-the-fence
observation and I asked theequine specialist if we could
partner with a couple equinesthat maybe didn't always get
along and just see how, you know, our group members felt about
observing the interactions and,you know, some of these equines
were really trying to move theother ones feet and, i guess, an
(11:48):
equine talk.
They were like I'll see yououtside or something, and that
evoked a physiological effect inthe group members.
They were talking about howthey were feeling anxious.
They could relate it, you know,to their own relationships in
the house or with their, youknow, colleagues or family
members.
So we did a meditation and wecentered ourselves, talked about
slowing down our heartbeat youknow how that feels in our body
(12:09):
and as soon as we did that, allthree of those equines that were
, you know, getting on eachother in the field came over,
came all the way over from wherethey were to where we were and
started eating grass.
All three of them That's thatenergy exchange that they can
buy into Like I want that, andcame over and reinforced it for
us.
And now we're in this symbiotic, you know, emotional
(12:30):
relationship.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Because equine's horses don't have that pre that
cerebral cortex, the forwardthinking, the rational, the
logic reason, because they're so, in my words.
Tell me, if you agree, hypersensitive to touch, to energy,
to emotions.
Are they always a groundedcreature or because they don't
(12:55):
have that prefrontal cortex?
they don't.
There's always in the present.
They don't need to help meunderstand that.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
I think, i think you're pretty close to it And my
I'm still learning too.
It's like evolving in my lifeand practice.
But horses are like vigilante.
They're vigilant, right.
So they're always scanning theenvironment, always for safety.
Am I going to die, yes or no?
And once you get the no, you'renot going to die, right, then
they can really, you know, be inthe moment.
(13:23):
But because they don't have aprefrontal cortex, they don't
come with all the logic and thefun, fun stuff that we, as
humans, bring with us.
There's no continual filters,there's nothing about, you know,
like my programming fromgrowing up.
Do you know what I mean?
Totally?
And so it's just this constantneuro.
You know, connectivity andunderstanding of the world.
Am I safe?
(13:44):
Yes, cool.
Then what's happening here?
Am I safe?
Awesome, let me keep doing whatI'm doing.
And they do this within theherd too, which is really
fascinating.
So equines co-regulate.
You know they're herd animals,they're prey animals, right?
So it's all about safety.
They have these really integralways of like knowing who is who
in the herd.
But they will actually, like,all sit and eat grass, but each
(14:10):
member of the herd will keep alook out for where they are
within the herd too, so it'slike constantly being alert, but
also being calm.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So, as humans, if we're in that fight or flight
response continuously, it can belooked at as trauma.
But because they don't havethat prefrontal cortex and
they're always co-regulatingthat, they're not in that trauma
response like humans.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
So that's a really good question And I don't think
I'm sophisticated enough to knowthe nuances to answer that.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Just fascinating.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
But what I do know is that their amygdala is always
on, But the prefrontal cortex oflike the rash now and the logic
isn't there.
So it's really just like am Idying, No cool.
Am I dying, No cool?
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah, and what you said earlier about how sensitive
they are, how receptive theyare.
it's awesome, but also can bevery overwhelming and scary at
the same time, for somebody.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Yeah, we're human.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, i mean tell me more about that, because I deal
with that all the time withpatients that come to the farm.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, because I mean that emphasized the point that
we're all interconnected, thatmy sense of self of like oh,
this is me, as if I can hide,you know.
So that's really healing, youknow, like, because I'm being
exposed to my own emotions byseeing how this horse is
reacting to me.
So it makes me think of that.
But also, like I heard thisstories when I was growing up,
(15:40):
because there are people whomeditate a lot, and then when
you're describing about howsensitive they are to the size
of their body and also to a fly,so I've heard some stories
where people would go on toretreats and then they would
meditate and they get to thisplace where they will be
meditating and they can feel oneof their hair on their eyebrow
(16:01):
fall off.
They are aware of that, youknow, so, like, so for us it's
more like going back to it.
Right, we might have thatability, but we have all these
programming and opinions, andlike we're kind of numb from it,
although we have thatcapability of sensitivity to be
aware of another human being orto our own feelings.
You know, so it makes me thinkof that How much of a beautiful
(16:23):
process this is to go within anduncover.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
There's a quote I can't remember who said it on
top of my head, but somethingalong the lines If you don't
like the way your horse isbehaving, go look in the mirror.
You don't like the way yourhorse is acting, go look in the
mirror.
And it's true.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I think, why this conversation has me so juiced up
, energized, you know, whetherit's therapy, classical Chinese
medicine, meditation, equine isa wonderful way of, even if we
avoid awareness or consciousnessor denial, that equine brings
these things out, even if youare trying to hide it or
(17:01):
subconsciously trying to justprotect ourselves.
Equine kind of gives thisinsight, with this horse to be
able to do so.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Yeah, it's powerful stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Are there also like particular ways to treat them or
to keep them healthy, or dothey also get trained?
You mentioned earlier aboutlike how much they want to
participate in this healingprocess as well.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Yeah, Yeah, so there are so many different modalities
for equine assistedpsychotherapy and the way that
I've been trained was through acourse of Awakening with Equines
which is, all you know,grounded in spiritual psychology
.
So when I say things like theywant to do the work, i'm coming
(17:46):
from a place of looking at thiswork as like there's.
They're the shamans of themammal world And I'm just
allowing them to kind offacilitate with me along the
process, which clinically kindof goes against my training.
But because you can see thepower of working with an equine,
it's just magical.
But to answer your question, thefarm that I partner with
(18:07):
Nicker's Retreat, they do anoutstanding job caring for their
equine partners And every horsehas a role in a job And Lisa,
the farm owner, does a.
She's really great at ensuringthat her equines don't get burnt
out from the work becausethere's so is so much energy
exchange all the time And I'veactually found that some
(18:27):
patients are not a good fit formy equine partner because their
energy is too much And we haveto do a lot of groundwork to
re-regulate him because it kindof carries it with him, which is
fascinating because they don'thave a lot of that Like they
don't have the memory, like wedo, where it's categorized.
Do you know what I mean?
Or you can't be like, oh, itwas this person that made me
feel this way, but it was likeso much energy is so confusing
(18:49):
to his system it getsoverwhelmed.
So, to answer your question, anyhorse that has a horse analogy
and that's the term for it thatcan be social and do this work
can, but you have to be reallymindful that they're sentient
beings and they're not here forus to objectify them or work
them.
We have to treat them like wewould ourselves you know what I
(19:12):
mean?
Or like a best friend and readtheir cues and make sure that
their basic needs are met andalso their emotional needs are
met.
I hope that answered yourquestion.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah, So talk more about the type of training, the
spiritual aspect.
Do you connect that?
is it parallel to energy?
Take us down that road.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Yeah, i definitely do , and it's really where the
patient wants to go, you knowwith it for sure.
I just know from you know myprofessional and personal
experience that it's I don'tknow how else to explain it as
though that equines have moremirror neurons than any other
(19:52):
mammal.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
I mean the way that they explain that to our
listeners.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Yeah, i mean that's that's it.
I mean just the way that theirbrain is built, that that that
in and of itself sets them apart.
They can receive, read andchange their behavior based off
of our behavior.
No other mammal really, youknow, has that same kind of
relationship with the way thattheir brain has developed.
It's like no prefrontal cortexmeans they're not logically
(20:17):
doing it.
That it's this energy.
It's so spiritual if you thinkabout it.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I often say emotions are spiritual, kind of aligns
with what we're talking about Bymirror neurons.
For the listeners are youmeaning that they can literally
mirror behaviorally, emotionally.
Is that what you mean?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Emotionally.
Yeah, i'm not a neuroscientistby by any stretch of the
imagination, but mirror neuronsare the neurons in our brain
that set our motor neurons up toreceive information.
Mirror neurons are popping offright now.
It's how we, as humans, canpick up on each other's feelings
(21:02):
.
That's what makes, maybe usgood, you know, practitioners,
is that's where the empathy is.
I can feel it when youexperience it, right, yeah, and
then I can watch someone dosomething, can watch you pick up
that cup and drink it, and mybrain is going to receive that
information as if I was doing it.
Horses learn the same way.
They have those neurons, sothey can watch an elder equine
(21:26):
load into a trailer.
Their brain will fire the sameexact way as if it was actually
happening for them And with thatobservation they can learn that
behavior which is so gnarly.
Yeah, but without thatprefrontal cortex it doesn't
categorize it like our braindoes, which is good and bad.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yeah.
Yeah, That's really fascinating.
and also puzzling for me too isthat, you know, in human
communication apparently it'slike less than or more, less
than 20, more than 80% or around.
There is nonverbal, So like thewords that we're using is very
limited.
The rest is all communicatedthrough energy or facial
(22:07):
expression, body gesture.
So it's really crazy how webelong to different species but
at the same time, horses canpick up.
So it's probably not whatthey're seeing with our gesture,
but it's more about whatthey're feeling from us.
So when you talk about mirrorneurons, it's not just about how
I am standing to the horse, butit's more about how am I
(22:28):
emotionally?
And it has been mirror to them,which is not visible.
Emotions are not really visiblein its raw, original form.
So it's really fascinating.
Yeah, tell me more about howthey are trained or how do they
pick it up.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
I think it's part of their genetics.
Yeah, essence is the best wordfor it.
I don't think that they'retrained and they're probably our
other EAP providers that mightsay differently but I don't
think that they're trained toread emotion.
I think that they can betrained to utilize a sense, but
not this sense.
(23:04):
I think they're neuroception,like our neuroception reads you
know what I mean reads things.
but it's a very uniquerelationship, which is why
riding is such a profound sport,because horses and riders, they
really can become like one unit.
The brains of the rider and theequine are speaking to each
(23:26):
other through proprioception,through breathing, through
connectivity.
So I think equines can betrained on the fundamentals of
how to have manners, how to haveboundaries, how to ride, but in
terms of being trained like weare clinically, that's not, in
(23:48):
my experience, how it's done.
It's more of this spiritualcomponent of their makeup that
allows for them to be theseshamans of the animal world,
essentially.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Awesome healers, practitioners.
They're setting up theconditions as much as we hope to
as facilitators.
Very cool, Knowing these thingsand you being a conduit with a
horse.
What are some of your goals asa facilitator with these horses?
I guess it depends.
(24:24):
I imagine most people that arecoming to equine don't say I
want to work on this, like theymight in a sit-down office for
therapy.
I imagine it can be emotionalregulation, trauma, work,
addiction, work, trust.
How do you determine where thegroup, where the horse and where
you're going with this dance ofconstant information?
(24:49):
and you do have a cerebralcortex.
How do you do it?
Speaker 3 (24:54):
I love that question because this is what equine
assistants at Psychotherapy hastaught me the most about myself
at this stage in my journey.
We just got to let that shit go, because I will develop.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I just got chills.
It was the ultimate like, letit go, let the magic happen.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
I mean, i'm very science-based as an individual,
but working in partnership withequines has opened up this other
side of me so much more.
I develop program, we have atreatment plan with patients.
We have an intention, a thoughtof what we want to work on, But
nine times out of 10, itdoesn't always work out the way
that we want it to.
(25:33):
It's whatever comes up, it'swhatever is gifted to us in
session, it's whatever is beingmirrored back.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
I feel like I say this almost every other episode
where, almost every episode,somehow, we talk about
spirituality.
It always gets to some form ofenergy or spirituality.
I often use the analogy ofsetting up the conditions.
You can turn the soil, you canplant the seed, you can water it
, you can wait for the rightseason, but there's other
(26:02):
variables that we have nocontrol over.
But we do our best to set upthe conditions And then somehow
that energy force does the restor doesn't do the rest.
So trust, i imagine trustingyour process, learning about
yourself, trusting these horses,which probably came easier for
you than other things I'mimagining.
But where's trust in this wholething with you?
(26:24):
LSR.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Now, it's big.
It is so big.
I want to talk about maybe justmy equine partner for a second
to Lucky.
Lucky is, i think, he's 18 anda half hands.
He's huge.
He's 1200 pounds.
He's a Havarian, retired sporthorse, and injury took him out
of his game which is something Ialways share with patients
(26:46):
because the trajectory of hislife changed.
He has low attention span.
If I were to humanize some ofhis characteristics, i would say
he's mildly ADHD.
Yep, he's amazing, but we can'twork together without trust.
He is huge.
He could kick me and break myleg if he wanted to, and just me
(27:09):
being a predator in him, a prey.
He already trusts me.
We have to do a lot of workoutside of session to continue
to build that trust, and it'sdifferent every day.
I have to meet him where he'sat, and then not just that, we
have to have a relationship withthe patient and they have to
trust the process.
I mean, there's nothing that'sgoing to occur if there's not
(27:33):
trust between us, him and myself, and we work hard at that too.
It's not just he really showedme that earlier this year, but
the holidays, changes of theseasons, my bonding time with
him just got skewed.
So I just show up for sessionand he'd be like that's not what
we do.
I haven't seen you all week.
(27:54):
Where are my apples?
Where's my time in?
Where's the bonding?
And that really showed me thatI have to be true to what we've
agreed to do together.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
I don't think I'm going on a limb when I'm making
the assumption that this isprobably one of the deepest
relationships you have in thisworld.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
It's interesting.
Yeah, it is.
I joke sometimes with the farmowner.
I'm like we're like a marriedcouple and we have to relearn
how we speak to each other andhow we talk And he brings that
up, he brings it to the surface.
Well, let me know for sure AndI've had to really make sure
that when I go I spend time withhim beforehand And I don't have
(28:34):
to always ensure that I'mcoming from a place of namaste
when I'm on the farm.
But I have to be honest withhim about where I'm at, because
that disconnect of energy for mewill throw off the session.
So if I'm just like, hey, myday has been a little wild, it's
not you, it's me, we'll getthrough it.
He can receive that and we canwork through it because he knows
(28:55):
he can trust what I'm saying.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it's wild.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
I know you mentioned there's no typical path for
anybody specifically.
But how does that healingjourney look like in general?
Because my guess is that whenI'm in, usually the suffering
comes from not being presentwith the present moment, because
I'm stuck in the past or I'mworried about the future.
(29:20):
But when I see an animalreflecting my own emotions, i am
brought to the present moment.
Which healing can start thatway.
But how is that?
So, yeah, walking me throughthe process in general of a
patient coming in very brokentrauma, you know how does that
healing process start happening?
through that connection withequines.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
The animals bring to us a gift of unconditional love
and lack of judgment And that inand of itself starts a really
beautiful relational experience.
And most of the time you knowfolks that are coming in for
trauma work there's some kind ofattachment wound somewhere
along the line.
No matter what the trauma was,it's an attachment wound And so
(30:05):
having that experience with anyof my canine colleague or my
equine partner, that in and ofitself starts the journey.
And a lot of times, with thatrelational experience and that
attachment and that caretakingand that nurturing, we can
transfer that into humanrelationships.
And some modalities might saythat there's a specific way that
(30:26):
they you know they do it.
But for me we go in with anintention, we see where the work
goes and then we process, youknow afterwards of what came up.
And I have a really interesting,you know, patient I've been
working with for a while oncomplex grief And she has equine
experience.
So for her she was, she hadalready bought into you know the
(30:46):
process, like she wanted to beout in the farm.
There was so much beautifulenergy, you know, just really
powerful, and my, our equinepartner always showed a
disorganized kind of reactionwith her And I just what's going
on?
Nothing, you know, i'm okay,i'm sad, whatever, but the way
that he would interact was justthere, was this disconnect, and
(31:09):
I couldn't understand what washappening Until most recently,
she came back and she's likeI've been faking my, i've been
faking it, i'm just hoping thatI could make it.
I was trying to fake it till Imade it, and I'm like that.
Thank you for sharing that.
That makes sense.
that makes so much sense overthe last couple weeks when we've
been partnering with Lucky, whyhe's appeared to be off or
(31:29):
restless And he just startedlooking and chilling, and for
equines that's a sign ofrelaxation, and so then now our
work can begin in a differentway.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Processing part has to be the coolest because it
gives it to you.
It's there.
Where else does your mind gowith the, the Buddhist
perspective that your.
Buddhist principles.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, the mentioning of unconditional love, you know,
that really speaks to me And Ireflect on my own experience too
.
I had like fascination foranimals when I was growing up.
There's something very like Iwas.
For some reason I was verystruck by elephants.
You know we have a lot ofelephants back in Burma And then
whenever I looked them in theeyes in the elephant, they're
(32:13):
like it looks like they've beenon this planet for a long time
And also that they're very wisebut also very sad at the same
time.
You know, so like for me to beable to connect with another
human being or animal to anotherlife comes from, as a Buddhist,
my fundamental belief.
The first noble truth is thereis suffering.
So that unconditional loveenters into my heart when I
(32:38):
realize that everybody issuffering, so that's the sense
that I get whenever I look intothe eyes of the elephant.
They're like, yeah, we know,you know, kind of that feeling
that we know how you're feelingbut we have love available, kind
of thing.
So that, where my mind took mewhen you mentioned about
unconditional love, that ispossible.
We are suffering but at thesame time we're not alone, kind
(32:59):
of feeling, exactly.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Exactly, that's 100% it.
We had a group a couple monthsago and of course you know we
had it all written out.
This is what we're gonna do ishow it's gonna go.
And one of the group membersjust really had this, a
beautiful, you know, release andexperience, And she's like.
I feel this horse's emotion.
Every other horse here is fine.
(33:22):
This one does not want to behere.
Like me, I don't want to behere, I don't want to be
confined, I don't want to bemade to be doing this work.
I bet that recognition for thisequine that you're feeling in
yourself I bet they would really.
What can you tell yourselfright now?
What could you say to them tohelp make them feel better?
That's how you think they'refeeling.
And they went over and we did abreathing meditation and they
(33:45):
went over and they just sharedthat energy with their equine
partner And it was thiscollective feeling of ease.
It was beautiful.
That's the other thing I reallylove about working with equines
too is comfort, the attunement,the attachment.
But then there's just being outin nature.
There's this lack of disease,just a centeredness, a
groundedness.
It's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
So the mindfulness or the meditation is probably
sprinkled throughout the wholeexercise of equine.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Are there certain populations that you really
enjoy working with when it comesto equine, or does the equine
assisted therapy feel like thisis a great clientele for this
type of work?
I think it can work for justabout anything, but what do you
think?
Speaker 3 (34:33):
I agree with you wholeheartedly that it can work
with anything, anyone you know,any mental health disorder,
cerebral palsy, traumatic braininjury, stroke all the stuff I
can just share with you.
What my, what I'm learningabout my equine partner is that
depression and anxiety in adultsseems to be his jam.
(34:56):
Yep, individuals that havetrauma, that are not fragmented
and are not super disorganized.
He really vibes with them too.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Yeah, So then it depends on the partner, is what
you're saying.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
It does in the situation, for sure.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
I guess it's mentioned in the yoga world
about the prana right, thepranayama, which is a yoga
practice based on the breathing,but in our Buddhist tradition
we call it anna panna, which isthe process of breathing in and
out.
When I think of breath, it'snot just about the oxygen, but
it's the life force that comesin and out, which is always a
(35:36):
reflection of how I'm feeling.
And when I breathe in, there issomething entering into my body
as life force and it can makesome parts of my body pleasant,
unpleasant, but it becomes likean opportunity to stay in tune
with.
How am I maintaining the lifeforce within me?
You know, what I was curiousabout was how is it reflected in
the?
in the equines Maybe, like whenthey detect something from us,
(36:00):
their own breathing and theirown heartbeat changes as well,
since they are reflecting.
So you mentioned about thatsymbiotic relationship.
Yeah, so that's the part thatI'm curious about, about their
heartbeat and also theirbreathing.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah, they, it is that exchange, so they will
mirror that for sure.
And then a lot of differentstyles of writing.
They also factor in the breathas a way to communicate with
their equine partner.
So I think it's dressage,writing signals when they
(36:34):
breathe out for their equinepartner to stop.
So there is that, you know,connectedness.
One of the cool things aboutworking with equines, or some
equine knowledge, is that theycan feel our heartbeat from four
feet away.
So if I am anxious and I'mhaving all of the physiological
symptoms of anxiety, my equinepartner is going to feel that.
(36:56):
Okay, that doesn't mean thatthey're going to say I'm out of
here, this person's not safe.
They can also sense if I'mcoming in to hurt them or if I'm
having my own experience, andonce I can reregulate, they can
also mirror that back to me as aform of reregulation.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
So you can really help the clients whether it's
anxiety, trauma, mental healthconcerns to begin to co-regulate
and notice it.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
All the time?
Yeah, all the time.
That's one of the biggesttakeaways from the work.
Is this always getting backinto a relaxed muscle body and
partnership with equines.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
So this is all.
being able to do that throughbreath, work and meditation and
have these other variables withthese horses in real life To be
aware of that is wonderful.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
I think that's one of the benefits of the work too is
sometimes we see therapeuticgains much quicker than
traditional therapy because it'sreinforced immediately.
Yeah, and that's a neuronicconnection.
And then, once that continues,a new neuro pathway is built and
people can really take on thatexperience and it becomes lived,
(38:12):
something they can achieve muchquicker than they could before.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
What are some of the challenges and limitations with
equine Accessibility could beone.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
I would say that that's one of the the drivers
for this work is growing up.
Equines were not accessible tome, so, being as someone who
accepts Maryland Medicaid, i'dlove to make this accessible for
folks for sure.
I would say one of the biggestchallenges that I run into is
(38:42):
weather, and then also where myequine is, where my equine
partner is that day.
There's so much that goes into.
I could wake up on the wrongside of the bed.
You know what I mean.
Maybe it was like rainingheavily the night before.
He didn't eat on time, or he'sjust not really feeling that
well.
So I think it's just having apartner that's an animal is
(39:04):
always interesting.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
In terms of group work.
I often use the analogy I mightbe a composer for a group, but
I don't know where the course isgoing to go Exactly.
I can try to help compose andtake it somewhere, but no,
sometimes the band takes itwhere it needs to and I sit back
.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Very neat.
Well, tell us more about yourcounseling practice.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
Bay Area Counseling and Consultation is a mental
health group practice and we'retrauma-informed from the front
office to the billing departmentReally diverse set of
clinicians.
I specialize in trauma and wetake all major insurances except
for Aetna, Marilyn Medicaid,Johns Hopkins, Cygna, Blue Cross
(39:49):
and Blue Shield TriCare.
I would say that my colleaguesin the practice are just really
passionate about the work.
So everyone is, we're allgeneralists in mental health,
but we have our own niches thatwe really like to work with.
And end, The majority of ourservices are telehealth.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
And how do people find out about the equine work?
What are the specific groupsthat you run for?
the practice.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Yeah, i do a kids group once a month and that is a
DBT in partnership with equine.
So we learned about dbt skillsand then we partner with our
equines to practice those skills.
I do a women's group once amonth and it's women in recovery
and that just builds on.
you know the skills that we didthe week before Mindfulness,
character defects, you know whatit means to let go, trust,
(40:41):
building communication skills.
And then myself and anothercolleague in the practice do the
individual equine work and wework with the folks anxiety,
depression, trauma, dualdiagnosis.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, i'm still stuck on that healing journey.
Healing process Sounds likeit's something that complements
other things too, becausesomething's being revealed as
you're interacting with thehorse, and then are the patients
also being observed in a waywhere a therapist is involved,
like you were talking aboutearlier.
Some examples that I noticedsomething in the horse or
(41:20):
noticed something on you.
What is it that's going onunderneath, which is probably
that is not brought up if it'sjust a therapist and a patient,
you know, because that person isnot ready to open up, like
closed off.
But then when there's an animalwhich is reflecting, there is no
way of hiding it, which speedup the process, i guess.
Yeah, so that's kind of uniqueto this equine which is probably
(41:44):
not possible through othermeans.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Yeah, it's really powerful, especially from what
you're talking about too,because I think I said this
earlier but sometimes thetherapeutic gains happen so much
more quickly.
you know what I mean Because wehave this partnership.
it just kind of like brings itup and brings it out.
Sometimes folks have a hardtime with attachment and
developing relationships, butnot with our equine partner, So
(42:07):
that kind of sparks something inthem too.
And then sometimes we havepatients who are stuck with
where they are in treatment.
So when we would potentiallyrefer them, you know, maybe to a
specialist or whatever, we cantry equine assistance,
psychotherapy to see if we canhave a breakthrough, And usually
we do, which is awesome.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Such a powerful way to break barriers or resistance?
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yeah, are there also when you first evaluate or see a
patient where that's not a fitwith an equine therapy or that
they're not ready for it yet,kind of thing.
Because, as I was reflectingearlier too, that it can be
quite overwhelming, you know, tosee my own emotions in animal
reflecting.
(42:50):
I'm like I don't want to seehow I'm feeling yet.
Yeah, so are there any patientswho are not ready?
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Yeah, there's a ton of patients who aren't ready.
I have a couple on my case Likenow.
They're like I really want todo this and I can't wait to get
you there because you're goingto benefit so much from it.
But we're not stable enough forthis kind of work yet, and a
lot of that is understandingwhat my equine partner's central
nervous system is also capableof.
It's this dance, right, it'snot just me and the patient,
(43:19):
it's energy work, exactlyexactly.
But it's also acknowledging.
Like you know, we need to getto this much more place where
you don't need to have a masteryof skills, but I need you to be
able to apply them more.
Or sometimes some folks intrauma they're just too
fragmented at the time.
Right That we just need to workon stabilization just a little
bit more, but we screen everypatient too, so folks that are
(43:43):
stable on their medication.
Lack of active suicide.
Suicidality, not homicidal.
No history of animal cruelty.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Yeah, so I guess part of it is having a certain level
of insight and awareness, butthe other part is not just
spewing your energy everywherefor the horses and things like
that.
for that quote unquotestabilization.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
And I think and sometimes it happens, that's
okay.
Sometimes we get there andwe're doing the work and it's
all coming out and that's okay.
We can always step outside ofthe ring, we can do a breathing,
we can take a walk and put somespace for our equine partner
And when that happens, that's,that's fine.
It's just making sure that wehave enough insight before we go
(44:34):
into it to understand eachother and the relationship and
the boundaries You got to beable to take a break when we
need it.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
I do have another question, which might be a silly
question, but over the yearsI've realized that healing
crying is a very healing thing.
Do horses have ability to cryas well?
If you were to break down infront of a horse with all these
emotions and you start crying,how do they react to it?
Speaker 3 (44:59):
This is a great question.
I don't know, yes or no, ifhorses can cry, but I know that
they feel sadness And there's aton of research that shows that
they feel sadness and can gothrough depression, but they'll
come over and offer comfort.
I've seen that.
I've seen that personally.
I've gone through thatexperience myself and been
comforted by an equine partneror been with a patient who's
(45:21):
done the same thing.
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
In my limited experience I don't know if I
haven't seen a client or a groupmember not cry equine therapy.
Somehow these emotions becomeso uprooted or just aware during
equine therapy that it's for alot of people it would be hard
to hide their emotions.
I don't know if that cover thatwinter jacket of no.
I'm fine but somehow thatenergy transfer.
(45:47):
I don't know what it is, butit's a limited experience, But
the emotions come to the surface.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Yeah, i'll never see the horses the same after this
conversation, especially what wesaid earlier about them not
having prefrontal cortex, butthe emotions really inspiring
for a meditator, that sense ofself disappear in a very, very
freeing way that you're just inthe moment feeling.
The feeling Because we dosuffer a lot from our own
(46:16):
identity that this is how Ishould be treated, this is how I
should be feeling, this is me,this is me in the future, this
is me from the past.
Exactly All these limited waysof identifying ourselves as this
individual.
But for horses they're likeyeah, i'm just here.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
No judgment.
Man, exactly, i validate that.
I think about that sometimestoo Right, they're just in the
moment.
No judgment.
I like your vibe Cool, let'skeep going.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Let's do this Well.
thank you so much, courtney.
Is there anything else thatyou'd like to tell the audience
about equine therapy that wemaybe haven't touched upon yet?
Speaker 3 (46:51):
I think we head on all the big things.
I can't think of anything offthe top of my head.
Yeah, I appreciate you havingme.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Yeah, this was fun.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Yeah, it was really fun I know what we could feel.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
I've probably came across that We could feel the
energy and the passion in thisroom and the connectedness was a
lot of fun for us doing thisepisode, so thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
Yeah, thanks for having me, Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Well.
Horses are often viewed aspowerful and intuitive creatures
in the context of equinetherapy and known for their
ability to connect with humanswhen a deep, emotional and
energetic and, as we learnedtoday spiritual level Equine
therapy.
Horses are regarded as sentientbeings that can mirror and
respond to human emotions andbehaviors.
Their presence and interactionscan have profound experiences
(47:32):
and insights for individualsparticipating in this type of
therapy.
The horses non-judgmentalnature, sensitivity and ability
to read human body language makethem awesome, effective
partners in the therapeuticinterventions.
The therapeutic relationshipbetween human and horses and
equine therapy can betransformative and often leads
to personal growth, increasedself-awareness, healing and
(47:54):
enhance emotional well-being.
Horses can help individualsdevelop assertiveness, empathy,
trust, empowerment, emotionalregulation skills and so much
more I can't begin to name.
I think this was just anamazing one of the reasons why
we do this podcast So that waywe can learn and empower others
to receive services andtherapeutic modalities and
(48:16):
connection with something likeequine therapy and therapists
like Courtney with her partner.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Thanks for having me.
Absolutely, as always, likecomment share and my name's Luke
DeBoy And this is Zaw.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
See you guys next time.
Thanks so much.
Welcome to A Therapist of Buddhist Youth, the
podcast where we embark on atransformative journey of
self-discovery and collectivegrowth.
I'm your host, Luke DeBoy, atherapist with a passion for all
things related to health andwellness.
I'm thrilled to introduce ourco-host, the embodiment of
serenity.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm thrilled to be here too.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Zal brings his profound wisdom and
compassionate nature as aBuddhist practitioner to our
enlightening adventure.
Together, we delve into afascinating intersection of
psychology, spirituality and allthings health and wellness.
We hope you're ready to explorethe depths of human experience
and unlock practical insightsthat can enhance your well-being
.
So join us as we engage inthought-provoking discussions,
(00:56):
share personal stories andconnect with us, who will impart
their own profound wisdom.
Our aim is to provide you withvaluable tools, strategies and
perspectives that can empoweryou on your own path to
self-discovery and growth.
Through our heartfeltconversations and shared
experience, we'll navigate thecomplexities of life, uncovering
the secrets to holisticwell-being.
So whether you're seekingmental clarity, spiritual
(01:18):
nourishment or practicalguidance, a therapist and
Buddhist in you is your trustedcompanion.
So tune in and, as always,please like, follow, subscribe.
Whether it's a bell, a plus,we're on YouTube now.
Please do so so that way we cankeep growing our community and
share with other people.
So today, Zal, we're talkingabout healing with horses and
(01:40):
the benefits of equine therapy.
We're going to explore theincredible world of equine
therapy and its benefits formental health, trauma and so
much more.
These have been used forcenturies as working animals,
but they've also becomerecognized as powerful healers
in recent years.
Today we'll dive deep into thetopic with an expert.
We'll discuss equine therapy,how it works and the specific
(02:03):
benefits it can have forindividuals who have experienced
trauma or are struggling withmental health issues.
So whether you're a horse loveror just curious about
alternative forms of therapy,you won't want to miss this
episode.
So today we're bringing onCourtney Jones.
She's a highly respected andexperienced mental health and
trauma therapist based in GlenBernie, maryland.
(02:25):
With her a decade of experienceworking in the field, courtney
is a trusted voice in traumatherapy.
She is dedicated to helpingindividuals heal and grow from
different life experiences.
As the Bay Area Counseling andConsultation owner, courtney
provides services to support herclients, including individual
and group therapy, traumatreatment and equine and animal
assisted therapy.
(02:46):
Courtney's commitment toexcellence in her field is
reflected in her impressivecredentials, which does include
master's degree in social workfrom the University of Maryland
School of Social Work, as wellas a certified clinical trauma
professional and a certifiedequine partnered psychotherapist
and learning facilitator.
I believe I said that rightThrough her work with Bay Area
(03:06):
Counseling and Consultation,courtney has helped countless
individuals find healing andempowerment through equine
therapy.
She passionately advocates forthis powerful approach to mental
health and well-being, which iswhy we asked her to join today.
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, welcome.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Thanks for joining us .
So very glad that you are heretoday, courtney.
So equine therapy do we go bigor small for us?
I guess we'll go.
Oh, how does it work in general?
And then we'll fine tune it.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Well, go ahead and saddle up.
How does it work?
That is a really awesomequestion.
So equine assistedpsychotherapy in partnership
with equines is really how itworks.
So I think the mindset is goinginto a relationship with
(04:05):
equines instead of trying to usethem as tools.
So that's one of the biggestplatforms that I share with
patients is like this is apartnership.
So if I were to have anothercolleague in the room, you know,
to help with your mental health, this is kind of my colleague
for the day, this is ourcolleague, so this is the other
(04:25):
therapist that's going to be inthe room.
Same thing with my caninecompanion, leona.
It's the exact same thing whenwe do sessions together.
She's a partner So Lucky and Ipartner together.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
So it sets it up for, i guess, a deeper connection,
and not just this thing.
It's an animal, it's arelationship.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Oh, 100%.
Yeah, All equine work isrelational 100%.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I imagine I'm thinking about my own
experiences with equine therapy,knowing that and believing that
, but not necessarilycomfortable with that
relationship at first.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Yeah, the therapist in me wants to say tell me more
about that.
Yeah, i think that that'sreally common.
I think a lot of times, peopleare really intimidated by just
the general size of equines,which is something to work with,
for sure.
But at the end of the day, it'sreally breaking down the
nuances to what equines bring tothat relationship and, simply
put, we're predators in theirprey.
(05:20):
They are herd animals.
We pull one out of their herdto come and partner with us.
It's very intentional work thatthey are also contributing to.
You know, because they don'thave, they don't.
They could choose not to work,they could choose to cry, call
out for their herd, they couldbuck, they could run away, but
they are also part of thatequation.
(05:41):
They want to participate.
It's cool.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, i'm really, yeah, i was really looking
forward to this conversation AndI have a lot of questions and
also reflecting on my ownexperience too.
But first thought that comes tomind as we're starting the
conversation is about howhealing happens, you know, when
there is a connection, but alsothe opposite is true when I'm
(06:04):
closed off.
So I'm curious how that processis like when you're helping a
client, or in your ownexperience too, that you know an
animal does not talk, but thenthere is the existence, the
energy, life force behind it,and then you can connect to it.
I have a very limitedexperience, but like they really
reflect your emotional stateand which is cool, because I
(06:26):
don't have that access to myselfsometimes, you know.
So I want to know more aboutthat.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I love that you're bringing that up, because that's
how it is sometimes.
You know, equine assistedtherapy has taught me so much
about myself and what I bringinto the session and how I am
too, and, simply put, the reasonthat equines mirror our
emotions is because they havewhat we have mirror neurons.
What they lack, which is kindof like a gift, is the
(06:53):
prefrontal cortex to distinguishwhy they're feeling the way
that they're feeling.
So they literally mirror whatwe bring into the session.
And so for someone who isclosed off, you know our equine
partner is going to mirror thatback, so they might not engage.
They might have their back toyou the whole time.
You might walk over to them,they might walk away, but if
you're open, your equine mirrorsthat as well and comes over to
(07:15):
you in partnership.
It's fascinating stuff and it'samazing to watch it unfold too,
and you can talk about thepower of it all day, but until
you experience it it's a wholedifferent world.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, that's a powerful opening, you know,
because that model is true forlife too.
Right, Like I would think that,why are all these things
happening to me?
You know, life is happening tome, but it's actually a
reflection of what's happeninginside.
So I love that because, yeah, Idid have an experience with
some horses while I was intreatment this last time And it
(07:50):
was really we did it with agroup and it's crazy how the
same horse reflects differentlyto like five different people.
You know And it wasn't aboutthe robe, but it's more about
the way we were guided is thatyou pay attention, you know,
kind of communicate with thehorse and then she will follow
the lead.
It's not about the robe, butmore the intention behind it,
you know.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
It's like there's no playing poker, or if you are
playing poker, it'll play itback.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Yes, and we have a lot of folks I have the
privilege of working with andthat's something that we get to
see acting out like it goes livewith that, where someone will
tell us one thing but that's nothow they're feeling, and so the
horse reflects back what isreally going on in that
intention and that gives us areally great platform to discuss
what's going on.
(08:35):
I have a good example of this.
Actually, we were doing a groupand you know this modality is
relatively new to me, so I'mstill so much, you know, a
teacher and a student all thetime.
But there were two participantsand myself and the horse was
kind of just walking away andreally just not wanting to
(08:57):
engage, kind of shifty, and theother equine specialist said
who's nervous here?
And the two people were likenot me, not me, and I was.
I had to walk away because thishorse was really mirroring my
energy and go take a couple deepbreaths before I rejoined.
You know that pot of folks.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So you talk about mirror neurons, that we mirror
things as children, we mirrorour family.
So talk about that energyconnection and I don't know how
you explain that, but obviouslythe horse has picked up on that
How?
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Oh, man, okay, so I guess the best way I can
describe it is just to talk alittle bit about equine biology.
You know so equines have a verygreat sense of smell.
They've been used, you know, toseek out water, you know, for
centuries.
That's, you know, one of thejobs they had.
Real quick little sidebar too.
(09:54):
Equines can also help findpeople that are lost.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
They can do search and rescue.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
They have the same amount of olfactory Yep, gr, sus
.
They have the same amount ofcolor cones as canines do to,
which is really interesting.
but the most interesting factis equines are huge animals.
They are about 50 million timeslarger than a fly that will
land on them, but they can feelthat.
(10:21):
So, to put that intoperspective, for us it would be
like a dandelion seed falling onmy hand and me being able to
feel that we can't, and so justthink about the energy that we
emit as humans and theirsensitivity to that.
So anytime we go into a session, anytime before I ride, anytime
(10:41):
before I greet an equine andask, you know, consent to come
into their space, anytime beforeI have a session, no matter
what we're going to be talkingabout, we try to center our
energy to be respective of howsensitive they are.
Isn't that amazing?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
It takes me back to my first equine experience,
where we're in the pen.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
There was two of us in there and the horse was by
the fence and we were on theback middle and the equine
therapist just said well, whydon't you try to ground yourself
and take a couple breaths?
and the person I was in therewith we both did it in a matter
of 15 seconds just did thatexhale and allowed myself to be
present or grounded.
That horse came right over.
(11:24):
Every time.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
We did a group.
We did a group not too long agoand it was an over-the-fence
observation and I asked theequine specialist if we could
partner with a couple equinesthat maybe didn't always get
along and just see how, you know, our group members felt about
observing the interactions and,you know, some of these equines
were really trying to move theother ones feet and, i guess, an
(11:48):
equine talk.
They were like I'll see yououtside or something, and that
evoked a physiological effect inthe group members.
They were talking about howthey were feeling anxious.
They could relate it, you know,to their own relationships in
the house or with their, youknow, colleagues or family
members.
So we did a meditation and wecentered ourselves, talked about
slowing down our heartbeat youknow how that feels in our body
(12:09):
and as soon as we did that, allthree of those equines that were
, you know, getting on eachother in the field came over,
came all the way over from wherethey were to where we were and
started eating grass.
All three of them That's thatenergy exchange that they can
buy into Like I want that, andcame over and reinforced it for
us.
And now we're in this symbiotic, you know, emotional
(12:30):
relationship.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Because equine's horses don't have that pre that
cerebral cortex, the forwardthinking, the rational, the
logic reason, because they're so, in my words.
Tell me, if you agree, hypersensitive to touch, to energy,
to emotions.
Are they always a groundedcreature or because they don't
(12:55):
have that prefrontal cortex?
they don't.
There's always in the present.
They don't need to help meunderstand that.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
I think, i think you're pretty close to it And my
I'm still learning too.
It's like evolving in my lifeand practice.
But horses are like vigilante.
They're vigilant, right.
So they're always scanning theenvironment, always for safety.
Am I going to die, yes or no?
And once you get the no, you'renot going to die, right, then
they can really, you know, be inthe moment.
(13:23):
But because they don't have aprefrontal cortex, they don't
come with all the logic and thefun, fun stuff that we, as
humans, bring with us.
There's no continual filters,there's nothing about, you know,
like my programming fromgrowing up.
Do you know what I mean?
Totally?
And so it's just this constantneuro.
You know, connectivity andunderstanding of the world.
Am I safe?
(13:44):
Yes, cool.
Then what's happening here?
Am I safe?
Awesome, let me keep doing whatI'm doing.
And they do this within theherd too, which is really
fascinating.
So equines co-regulate.
You know they're herd animals,they're prey animals, right?
So it's all about safety.
They have these really integralways of like knowing who is who
in the herd.
But they will actually, like,all sit and eat grass, but each
(14:10):
member of the herd will keep alook out for where they are
within the herd too, so it'slike constantly being alert, but
also being calm.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So, as humans, if we're in that fight or flight
response continuously, it can belooked at as trauma.
But because they don't havethat prefrontal cortex and
they're always co-regulatingthat, they're not in that trauma
response like humans.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
So that's a really good question And I don't think
I'm sophisticated enough to knowthe nuances to answer that.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Just fascinating.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
But what I do know is that their amygdala is always
on, But the prefrontal cortex oflike the rash now and the logic
isn't there.
So it's really just like am Idying, No cool.
Am I dying, No cool?
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah, and what you said earlier about how sensitive
they are, how receptive theyare.
it's awesome, but also can bevery overwhelming and scary at
the same time, for somebody.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Yeah, we're human.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, i mean tell me more about that, because I deal
with that all the time withpatients that come to the farm.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, because I mean that emphasized the point that
we're all interconnected, thatmy sense of self of like oh,
this is me, as if I can hide,you know.
So that's really healing, youknow, like, because I'm being
exposed to my own emotions byseeing how this horse is
reacting to me.
So it makes me think of that.
But also, like I heard thisstories when I was growing up,
(15:40):
because there are people whomeditate a lot, and then when
you're describing about howsensitive they are to the size
of their body and also to a fly,so I've heard some stories
where people would go on toretreats and then they would
meditate and they get to thisplace where they will be
meditating and they can feel oneof their hair on their eyebrow
(16:01):
fall off.
They are aware of that, youknow, so, like, so for us it's
more like going back to it.
Right, we might have thatability, but we have all these
programming and opinions, andlike we're kind of numb from it,
although we have thatcapability of sensitivity to be
aware of another human being orto our own feelings.
You know, so it makes me thinkof that How much of a beautiful
(16:23):
process this is to go within anduncover.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
There's a quote I can't remember who said it on
top of my head, but somethingalong the lines If you don't
like the way your horse isbehaving, go look in the mirror.
You don't like the way yourhorse is acting, go look in the
mirror.
And it's true.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I think, why this conversation has me so juiced up
, energized, you know, whetherit's therapy, classical Chinese
medicine, meditation, equine isa wonderful way of, even if we
avoid awareness or consciousnessor denial, that equine brings
these things out, even if youare trying to hide it or
(17:01):
subconsciously trying to justprotect ourselves.
Equine kind of gives thisinsight, with this horse to be
able to do so.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Yeah, it's powerful stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Are there also like particular ways to treat them or
to keep them healthy, or dothey also get trained?
You mentioned earlier aboutlike how much they want to
participate in this healingprocess as well.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Yeah, Yeah, so there are so many different modalities
for equine assistedpsychotherapy and the way that
I've been trained was through acourse of Awakening with Equines
which is, all you know,grounded in spiritual psychology
.
So when I say things like theywant to do the work, i'm coming
(17:46):
from a place of looking at thiswork as like there's.
They're the shamans of themammal world And I'm just
allowing them to kind offacilitate with me along the
process, which clinically kindof goes against my training.
But because you can see thepower of working with an equine,
it's just magical.
But to answer your question, thefarm that I partner with
(18:07):
Nicker's Retreat, they do anoutstanding job caring for their
equine partners And every horsehas a role in a job And Lisa,
the farm owner, does a.
She's really great at ensuringthat her equines don't get burnt
out from the work becausethere's so is so much energy
exchange all the time And I'veactually found that some
(18:27):
patients are not a good fit formy equine partner because their
energy is too much And we haveto do a lot of groundwork to
re-regulate him because it kindof carries it with him, which is
fascinating because they don'thave a lot of that Like they
don't have the memory, like wedo, where it's categorized.
Do you know what I mean?
Or you can't be like, oh, itwas this person that made me
feel this way, but it was likeso much energy is so confusing
(18:49):
to his system it getsoverwhelmed.
So, to answer your question, anyhorse that has a horse analogy
and that's the term for it thatcan be social and do this work
can, but you have to be reallymindful that they're sentient
beings and they're not here forus to objectify them or work
them.
We have to treat them like wewould ourselves you know what I
(19:12):
mean?
Or like a best friend and readtheir cues and make sure that
their basic needs are met andalso their emotional needs are
met.
I hope that answered yourquestion.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah, So talk more about the type of training, the
spiritual aspect.
Do you connect that?
is it parallel to energy?
Take us down that road.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Yeah, i definitely do , and it's really where the
patient wants to go, you knowwith it for sure.
I just know from you know myprofessional and personal
experience that it's I don'tknow how else to explain it as
though that equines have moremirror neurons than any other
(19:52):
mammal.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
I mean the way that they explain that to our
listeners.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Yeah, i mean that's that's it.
I mean just the way that theirbrain is built, that that that
in and of itself sets them apart.
They can receive, read andchange their behavior based off
of our behavior.
No other mammal really, youknow, has that same kind of
relationship with the way thattheir brain has developed.
It's like no prefrontal cortexmeans they're not logically
(20:17):
doing it.
That it's this energy.
It's so spiritual if you thinkabout it.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I often say emotions are spiritual, kind of aligns
with what we're talking about Bymirror neurons.
For the listeners are youmeaning that they can literally
mirror behaviorally, emotionally.
Is that what you mean?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Emotionally.
Yeah, i'm not a neuroscientistby by any stretch of the
imagination, but mirror neuronsare the neurons in our brain
that set our motor neurons up toreceive information.
Mirror neurons are popping offright now.
It's how we, as humans, canpick up on each other's feelings
(21:02):
.
That's what makes, maybe usgood, you know, practitioners,
is that's where the empathy is.
I can feel it when youexperience it, right, yeah, and
then I can watch someone dosomething, can watch you pick up
that cup and drink it, and mybrain is going to receive that
information as if I was doing it.
Horses learn the same way.
They have those neurons, sothey can watch an elder equine
(21:26):
load into a trailer.
Their brain will fire the sameexact way as if it was actually
happening for them And with thatobservation they can learn that
behavior which is so gnarly.
Yeah, but without thatprefrontal cortex it doesn't
categorize it like our braindoes, which is good and bad.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yeah.
Yeah, That's really fascinating.
and also puzzling for me too isthat, you know, in human
communication apparently it'slike less than or more, less
than 20, more than 80% or around.
There is nonverbal, So like thewords that we're using is very
limited.
The rest is all communicatedthrough energy or facial
(22:07):
expression, body gesture.
So it's really crazy how webelong to different species but
at the same time, horses canpick up.
So it's probably not whatthey're seeing with our gesture,
but it's more about whatthey're feeling from us.
So when you talk about mirrorneurons, it's not just about how
I am standing to the horse, butit's more about how am I
(22:28):
emotionally?
And it has been mirror to them,which is not visible.
Emotions are not really visiblein its raw, original form.
So it's really fascinating.
Yeah, tell me more about howthey are trained or how do they
pick it up.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
I think it's part of their genetics.
Yeah, essence is the best wordfor it.
I don't think that they'retrained and they're probably our
other EAP providers that mightsay differently but I don't
think that they're trained toread emotion.
I think that they can betrained to utilize a sense, but
not this sense.
(23:04):
I think they're neuroception,like our neuroception reads you
know what I mean reads things.
but it's a very uniquerelationship, which is why
riding is such a profound sport,because horses and riders, they
really can become like one unit.
The brains of the rider and theequine are speaking to each
(23:26):
other through proprioception,through breathing, through
connectivity.
So I think equines can betrained on the fundamentals of
how to have manners, how to haveboundaries, how to ride, but in
terms of being trained like weare clinically, that's not, in
(23:48):
my experience, how it's done.
It's more of this spiritualcomponent of their makeup that
allows for them to be theseshamans of the animal world,
essentially.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Awesome healers, practitioners.
They're setting up theconditions as much as we hope to
as facilitators.
Very cool, Knowing these thingsand you being a conduit with a
horse.
What are some of your goals asa facilitator with these horses?
I guess it depends.
(24:24):
I imagine most people that arecoming to equine don't say I
want to work on this, like theymight in a sit-down office for
therapy.
I imagine it can be emotionalregulation, trauma, work,
addiction, work, trust.
How do you determine where thegroup, where the horse and where
you're going with this dance ofconstant information?
(24:49):
and you do have a cerebralcortex.
How do you do it?
Speaker 3 (24:54):
I love that question because this is what equine
assistants at Psychotherapy hastaught me the most about myself
at this stage in my journey.
We just got to let that shit go, because I will develop.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I just got chills.
It was the ultimate like, letit go, let the magic happen.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
I mean, i'm very science-based as an individual,
but working in partnership withequines has opened up this other
side of me so much more.
I develop program, we have atreatment plan with patients.
We have an intention, a thoughtof what we want to work on, But
nine times out of 10, itdoesn't always work out the way
that we want it to.
(25:33):
It's whatever comes up, it'swhatever is gifted to us in
session, it's whatever is beingmirrored back.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
I feel like I say this almost every other episode
where, almost every episode,somehow, we talk about
spirituality.
It always gets to some form ofenergy or spirituality.
I often use the analogy ofsetting up the conditions.
You can turn the soil, you canplant the seed, you can water it
, you can wait for the rightseason, but there's other
(26:02):
variables that we have nocontrol over.
But we do our best to set upthe conditions And then somehow
that energy force does the restor doesn't do the rest.
So trust, i imagine trustingyour process, learning about
yourself, trusting these horses,which probably came easier for
you than other things I'mimagining.
But where's trust in this wholething with you?
(26:24):
LSR.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Now, it's big.
It is so big.
I want to talk about maybe justmy equine partner for a second
to Lucky.
Lucky is, i think, he's 18 anda half hands.
He's huge.
He's 1200 pounds.
He's a Havarian, retired sporthorse, and injury took him out
of his game which is something Ialways share with patients
(26:46):
because the trajectory of hislife changed.
He has low attention span.
If I were to humanize some ofhis characteristics, i would say
he's mildly ADHD.
Yep, he's amazing, but we can'twork together without trust.
He is huge.
He could kick me and break myleg if he wanted to, and just me
(27:09):
being a predator in him, a prey.
He already trusts me.
We have to do a lot of workoutside of session to continue
to build that trust, and it'sdifferent every day.
I have to meet him where he'sat, and then not just that, we
have to have a relationship withthe patient and they have to
trust the process.
I mean, there's nothing that'sgoing to occur if there's not
(27:33):
trust between us, him and myself, and we work hard at that too.
It's not just he really showedme that earlier this year, but
the holidays, changes of theseasons, my bonding time with
him just got skewed.
So I just show up for sessionand he'd be like that's not what
we do.
I haven't seen you all week.
(27:54):
Where are my apples?
Where's my time in?
Where's the bonding?
And that really showed me thatI have to be true to what we've
agreed to do together.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
I don't think I'm going on a limb when I'm making
the assumption that this isprobably one of the deepest
relationships you have in thisworld.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
It's interesting.
Yeah, it is.
I joke sometimes with the farmowner.
I'm like we're like a marriedcouple and we have to relearn
how we speak to each other andhow we talk And he brings that
up, he brings it to the surface.
Well, let me know for sure AndI've had to really make sure
that when I go I spend time withhim beforehand And I don't have
(28:34):
to always ensure that I'mcoming from a place of namaste
when I'm on the farm.
But I have to be honest withhim about where I'm at, because
that disconnect of energy for mewill throw off the session.
So if I'm just like, hey, myday has been a little wild, it's
not you, it's me, we'll getthrough it.
He can receive that and we canwork through it because he knows
(28:55):
he can trust what I'm saying.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it's wild.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
I know you mentioned there's no typical path for
anybody specifically.
But how does that healingjourney look like in general?
Because my guess is that whenI'm in, usually the suffering
comes from not being presentwith the present moment, because
I'm stuck in the past or I'mworried about the future.
(29:20):
But when I see an animalreflecting my own emotions, i am
brought to the present moment.
Which healing can start thatway.
But how is that?
So, yeah, walking me throughthe process in general of a
patient coming in very brokentrauma, you know how does that
healing process start happening?
through that connection withequines.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
The animals bring to us a gift of unconditional love
and lack of judgment And that inand of itself starts a really
beautiful relational experience.
And most of the time you knowfolks that are coming in for
trauma work there's some kind ofattachment wound somewhere
along the line.
No matter what the trauma was,it's an attachment wound And so
(30:05):
having that experience with anyof my canine colleague or my
equine partner, that in and ofitself starts the journey.
And a lot of times, with thatrelational experience and that
attachment and that caretakingand that nurturing, we can
transfer that into humanrelationships.
And some modalities might saythat there's a specific way that
(30:26):
they you know they do it.
But for me we go in with anintention, we see where the work
goes and then we process, youknow afterwards of what came up.
And I have a really interesting,you know, patient I've been
working with for a while oncomplex grief And she has equine
experience.
So for her she was, she hadalready bought into you know the
(30:46):
process, like she wanted to beout in the farm.
There was so much beautifulenergy, you know, just really
powerful, and my, our equinepartner always showed a
disorganized kind of reactionwith her And I just what's going
on?
Nothing, you know, i'm okay,i'm sad, whatever, but the way
that he would interact was justthere, was this disconnect, and
(31:09):
I couldn't understand what washappening Until most recently,
she came back and she's likeI've been faking my, i've been
faking it, i'm just hoping thatI could make it.
I was trying to fake it till Imade it, and I'm like that.
Thank you for sharing that.
That makes sense.
that makes so much sense overthe last couple weeks when we've
been partnering with Lucky, whyhe's appeared to be off or
(31:29):
restless And he just startedlooking and chilling, and for
equines that's a sign ofrelaxation, and so then now our
work can begin in a differentway.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Processing part has to be the coolest because it
gives it to you.
It's there.
Where else does your mind gowith the, the Buddhist
perspective that your.
Buddhist principles.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, the mentioning of unconditional love, you know,
that really speaks to me And Ireflect on my own experience too
.
I had like fascination foranimals when I was growing up.
There's something very like Iwas.
For some reason I was verystruck by elephants.
You know we have a lot ofelephants back in Burma And then
whenever I looked them in theeyes in the elephant, they're
(32:13):
like it looks like they've beenon this planet for a long time
And also that they're very wisebut also very sad at the same
time.
You know, so like for me to beable to connect with another
human being or animal to anotherlife comes from, as a Buddhist,
my fundamental belief.
The first noble truth is thereis suffering.
So that unconditional loveenters into my heart when I
(32:38):
realize that everybody issuffering, so that's the sense
that I get whenever I look intothe eyes of the elephant.
They're like, yeah, we know,you know, kind of that feeling
that we know how you're feelingbut we have love available, kind
of thing.
So that, where my mind took mewhen you mentioned about
unconditional love, that ispossible.
We are suffering but at thesame time we're not alone, kind
(32:59):
of feeling, exactly.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Exactly, that's 100% it.
We had a group a couple monthsago and of course you know we
had it all written out.
This is what we're gonna do ishow it's gonna go.
And one of the group membersjust really had this, a
beautiful, you know, release andexperience, And she's like.
I feel this horse's emotion.
Every other horse here is fine.
(33:22):
This one does not want to behere.
Like me, I don't want to behere, I don't want to be
confined, I don't want to bemade to be doing this work.
I bet that recognition for thisequine that you're feeling in
yourself I bet they would really.
What can you tell yourselfright now?
What could you say to them tohelp make them feel better?
That's how you think they'refeeling.
And they went over and we did abreathing meditation and they
(33:45):
went over and they just sharedthat energy with their equine
partner And it was thiscollective feeling of ease.
It was beautiful.
That's the other thing I reallylove about working with equines
too is comfort, the attunement,the attachment.
But then there's just being outin nature.
There's this lack of disease,just a centeredness, a
groundedness.
It's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
So the mindfulness or the meditation is probably
sprinkled throughout the wholeexercise of equine.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Are there certain populations that you really
enjoy working with when it comesto equine, or does the equine
assisted therapy feel like thisis a great clientele for this
type of work?
I think it can work for justabout anything, but what do you
think?
Speaker 3 (34:33):
I agree with you wholeheartedly that it can work
with anything, anyone you know,any mental health disorder,
cerebral palsy, traumatic braininjury, stroke all the stuff I
can just share with you.
What my, what I'm learningabout my equine partner is that
depression and anxiety in adultsseems to be his jam.
(34:56):
Yep, individuals that havetrauma, that are not fragmented
and are not super disorganized.
He really vibes with them too.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Yeah, So then it depends on the partner, is what
you're saying.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
It does in the situation, for sure.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
I guess it's mentioned in the yoga world
about the prana right, thepranayama, which is a yoga
practice based on the breathing,but in our Buddhist tradition
we call it anna panna, which isthe process of breathing in and
out.
When I think of breath, it'snot just about the oxygen, but
it's the life force that comesin and out, which is always a
(35:36):
reflection of how I'm feeling.
And when I breathe in, there issomething entering into my body
as life force and it can makesome parts of my body pleasant,
unpleasant, but it becomes likean opportunity to stay in tune
with.
How am I maintaining the lifeforce within me?
You know, what I was curiousabout was how is it reflected in
the?
in the equines Maybe, like whenthey detect something from us,
(36:00):
their own breathing and theirown heartbeat changes as well,
since they are reflecting.
So you mentioned about thatsymbiotic relationship.
Yeah, so that's the part thatI'm curious about, about their
heartbeat and also theirbreathing.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah, they, it is that exchange, so they will
mirror that for sure.
And then a lot of differentstyles of writing.
They also factor in the breathas a way to communicate with
their equine partner.
So I think it's dressage,writing signals when they
(36:34):
breathe out for their equinepartner to stop.
So there is that, you know,connectedness.
One of the cool things aboutworking with equines, or some
equine knowledge, is that theycan feel our heartbeat from four
feet away.
So if I am anxious and I'mhaving all of the physiological
symptoms of anxiety, my equinepartner is going to feel that.
(36:56):
Okay, that doesn't mean thatthey're going to say I'm out of
here, this person's not safe.
They can also sense if I'mcoming in to hurt them or if I'm
having my own experience, andonce I can reregulate, they can
also mirror that back to me as aform of reregulation.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
So you can really help the clients whether it's
anxiety, trauma, mental healthconcerns to begin to co-regulate
and notice it.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
All the time?
Yeah, all the time.
That's one of the biggesttakeaways from the work.
Is this always getting backinto a relaxed muscle body and
partnership with equines.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
So this is all.
being able to do that throughbreath, work and meditation and
have these other variables withthese horses in real life To be
aware of that is wonderful.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
I think that's one of the benefits of the work too is
sometimes we see therapeuticgains much quicker than
traditional therapy because it'sreinforced immediately.
Yeah, and that's a neuronicconnection.
And then, once that continues,a new neuro pathway is built and
people can really take on thatexperience and it becomes lived,
(38:12):
something they can achieve muchquicker than they could before.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
What are some of the challenges and limitations with
equine Accessibility could beone.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
I would say that that's one of the the drivers
for this work is growing up.
Equines were not accessible tome, so, being as someone who
accepts Maryland Medicaid, i'dlove to make this accessible for
folks for sure.
I would say one of the biggestchallenges that I run into is
(38:42):
weather, and then also where myequine is, where my equine
partner is that day.
There's so much that goes into.
I could wake up on the wrongside of the bed.
You know what I mean.
Maybe it was like rainingheavily the night before.
He didn't eat on time, or he'sjust not really feeling that
well.
So I think it's just having apartner that's an animal is
(39:04):
always interesting.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
In terms of group work.
I often use the analogy I mightbe a composer for a group, but
I don't know where the course isgoing to go Exactly.
I can try to help compose andtake it somewhere, but no,
sometimes the band takes itwhere it needs to and I sit back
.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Very neat.
Well, tell us more about yourcounseling practice.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
Bay Area Counseling and Consultation is a mental
health group practice and we'retrauma-informed from the front
office to the billing departmentReally diverse set of
clinicians.
I specialize in trauma and wetake all major insurances except
for Aetna, Marilyn Medicaid,Johns Hopkins, Cygna, Blue Cross
(39:49):
and Blue Shield TriCare.
I would say that my colleaguesin the practice are just really
passionate about the work.
So everyone is, we're allgeneralists in mental health,
but we have our own niches thatwe really like to work with.
And end, The majority of ourservices are telehealth.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
And how do people find out about the equine work?
What are the specific groupsthat you run for?
the practice.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Yeah, i do a kids group once a month and that is a
DBT in partnership with equine.
So we learned about dbt skillsand then we partner with our
equines to practice those skills.
I do a women's group once amonth and it's women in recovery
and that just builds on.
you know the skills that we didthe week before Mindfulness,
character defects, you know whatit means to let go, trust,
(40:41):
building communication skills.
And then myself and anothercolleague in the practice do the
individual equine work and wework with the folks anxiety,
depression, trauma, dualdiagnosis.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, i'm still stuck on that healing journey.
Healing process Sounds likeit's something that complements
other things too, becausesomething's being revealed as
you're interacting with thehorse, and then are the patients
also being observed in a waywhere a therapist is involved,
like you were talking aboutearlier.
Some examples that I noticedsomething in the horse or
(41:20):
noticed something on you.
What is it that's going onunderneath, which is probably
that is not brought up if it'sjust a therapist and a patient,
you know, because that person isnot ready to open up, like
closed off.
But then when there's an animalwhich is reflecting, there is no
way of hiding it, which speedup the process, i guess.
Yeah, so that's kind of uniqueto this equine which is probably
(41:44):
not possible through othermeans.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Yeah, it's really powerful, especially from what
you're talking about too,because I think I said this
earlier but sometimes thetherapeutic gains happen so much
more quickly.
you know what I mean Because wehave this partnership.
it just kind of like brings itup and brings it out.
Sometimes folks have a hardtime with attachment and
developing relationships, butnot with our equine partner, So
(42:07):
that kind of sparks something inthem too.
And then sometimes we havepatients who are stuck with
where they are in treatment.
So when we would potentiallyrefer them, you know, maybe to a
specialist or whatever, we cantry equine assistance,
psychotherapy to see if we canhave a breakthrough, And usually
we do, which is awesome.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Such a powerful way to break barriers or resistance?
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yeah, are there also when you first evaluate or see a
patient where that's not a fitwith an equine therapy or that
they're not ready for it yet,kind of thing.
Because, as I was reflectingearlier too, that it can be
quite overwhelming, you know, tosee my own emotions in animal
reflecting.
(42:50):
I'm like I don't want to seehow I'm feeling yet.
Yeah, so are there any patientswho are not ready?
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Yeah, there's a ton of patients who aren't ready.
I have a couple on my case Likenow.
They're like I really want todo this and I can't wait to get
you there because you're goingto benefit so much from it.
But we're not stable enough forthis kind of work yet, and a
lot of that is understandingwhat my equine partner's central
nervous system is also capableof.
It's this dance, right, it'snot just me and the patient,
(43:19):
it's energy work, exactlyexactly.
But it's also acknowledging.
Like you know, we need to getto this much more place where
you don't need to have a masteryof skills, but I need you to be
able to apply them more.
Or sometimes some folks intrauma they're just too
fragmented at the time.
Right That we just need to workon stabilization just a little
bit more, but we screen everypatient too, so folks that are
(43:43):
stable on their medication.
Lack of active suicide.
Suicidality, not homicidal.
No history of animal cruelty.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Yeah, so I guess part of it is having a certain level
of insight and awareness, butthe other part is not just
spewing your energy everywherefor the horses and things like
that.
for that quote unquotestabilization.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
And I think and sometimes it happens, that's
okay.
Sometimes we get there andwe're doing the work and it's
all coming out and that's okay.
We can always step outside ofthe ring, we can do a breathing,
we can take a walk and put somespace for our equine partner
And when that happens, that's,that's fine.
It's just making sure that wehave enough insight before we go
(44:34):
into it to understand eachother and the relationship and
the boundaries You got to beable to take a break when we
need it.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
I do have another question, which might be a silly
question, but over the yearsI've realized that healing
crying is a very healing thing.
Do horses have ability to cryas well?
If you were to break down infront of a horse with all these
emotions and you start crying,how do they react to it?
Speaker 3 (44:59):
This is a great question.
I don't know, yes or no, ifhorses can cry, but I know that
they feel sadness And there's aton of research that shows that
they feel sadness and can gothrough depression, but they'll
come over and offer comfort.
I've seen that.
I've seen that personally.
I've gone through thatexperience myself and been
comforted by an equine partneror been with a patient who's
(45:21):
done the same thing.
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
In my limited experience I don't know if I
haven't seen a client or a groupmember not cry equine therapy.
Somehow these emotions becomeso uprooted or just aware during
equine therapy that it's for alot of people it would be hard
to hide their emotions.
I don't know if that cover thatwinter jacket of no.
I'm fine but somehow thatenergy transfer.
(45:47):
I don't know what it is, butit's a limited experience, But
the emotions come to the surface.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Yeah, i'll never see the horses the same after this
conversation, especially what wesaid earlier about them not
having prefrontal cortex, butthe emotions really inspiring
for a meditator, that sense ofself disappear in a very, very
freeing way that you're just inthe moment feeling.
The feeling Because we dosuffer a lot from our own
(46:16):
identity that this is how Ishould be treated, this is how I
should be feeling, this is me,this is me in the future, this
is me from the past.
Exactly All these limited waysof identifying ourselves as this
individual.
But for horses they're likeyeah, i'm just here.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
No judgment.
Man, exactly, i validate that.
I think about that sometimestoo Right, they're just in the
moment.
No judgment.
I like your vibe Cool, let'skeep going.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Let's do this Well.
thank you so much, courtney.
Is there anything else thatyou'd like to tell the audience
about equine therapy that wemaybe haven't touched upon yet?
Speaker 3 (46:51):
I think we head on all the big things.
I can't think of anything offthe top of my head.
Yeah, I appreciate you havingme.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Yeah, this was fun.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Yeah, it was really fun I know what we could feel.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
I've probably came across that We could feel the
energy and the passion in thisroom and the connectedness was a
lot of fun for us doing thisepisode, so thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
Yeah, thanks for having me, Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Well.
Horses are often viewed aspowerful and intuitive creatures
in the context of equinetherapy and known for their
ability to connect with humanswhen a deep, emotional and
energetic and, as we learnedtoday spiritual level Equine
therapy.
Horses are regarded as sentientbeings that can mirror and
respond to human emotions andbehaviors.
Their presence and interactionscan have profound experiences
(47:32):
and insights for individualsparticipating in this type of
therapy.
The horses non-judgmentalnature, sensitivity and ability
to read human body language makethem awesome, effective
partners in the therapeuticinterventions.
The therapeutic relationshipbetween human and horses and
equine therapy can betransformative and often leads
to personal growth, increasedself-awareness, healing and
(47:54):
enhance emotional well-being.
Horses can help individualsdevelop assertiveness, empathy,
trust, empowerment, emotionalregulation skills and so much
more I can't begin to name.
I think this was just anamazing one of the reasons why
we do this podcast So that waywe can learn and empower others
to receive services andtherapeutic modalities and
(48:16):
connection with something likeequine therapy and therapists
like Courtney with her partner.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Thanks for having me.
Absolutely, as always, likecomment share and my name's Luke
DeBoy And this is Zaw.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
See you guys next time.
Thanks so much.
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