August 21, 2023 • 57 mins
Prepare for an enlightening conversation with the renowned chiropractor Dr. Eric Korzen. Shattering the stereotype of chiropractors as 'back crackers,' he shares insights into the holistic perspective of functional medicine within chiropractic care. Let go of preconceived notions and discuss how these practitioners approach neuromuscular skeletal conditions, the significance of super specialists, and the enlightening mind-body connection to back pain.
Ready to take charge of your health journey? Dr. Korzen spotlights the significance of patient participation in their treatment plan, unveiling how diagnostic imaging can hinder or help the process. We also explore the transformative power of multidisciplinary approaches in addressing chronic pain. With Dr. Korzen at the helm, we delve into the realm of chiropractic adjustments, patient education, and the art of maintaining movement healthily and appropriately.
In this candid conversation, Dr. Korzen challenges some chiropractors' "technician" approach, addressing safety and X-Ray usage as a scare tactic! He daringly confronts the status quo, raising a critical question: Can the cookie-cutter approach truly serve patients' well-being? Our discourse expands to integrating acupuncture into the health equation and the awe-inspiring complexity of the human body. Buckle up, challenge the status quo, and redefine health and wellness with Dr. Eric Korzen.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to A Therapist of Buddhists in you,
brought to you by the RecoveryCollective in Annapolis,
maryland.
Thanks for taking the time aswe explore a collective solution
to all things health andwellness.
I'm Luke DeBoy, the therapist,and I'm joined by my co-host,
zomo a Theravada BuddhistMeditation, life and Recovery
Coach.
Sub-zo hey Blake, it'shappening.
So we're back to the video.
(00:23):
A lot of you guys are listeningon your preferred podcast
platform and, if you'd like,feel free to check us out on
YouTube as well, and you canfind that in the episode notes,
as per usual.
So together we'll navigate tothe intersections of psychology,
spirituality, health andwellness, like usual, offering
practical insights along the way.
So thanks for tuning in,connect with us and fellow
(00:46):
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(01:07):
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And just as all we say thislike, comment, subscribe every
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So it's just one way for peopleto have more access to this
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So if you really could spend aminute or two to comment and
(01:29):
rate and like we'd really doappreciate it.
Well, before we get going, I'llsay two more things.
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You can now show yourappreciation through our donate
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Your contribution helps andcontinue our mission of
(01:50):
uncovering solutions to allthings related to health and
wellness.
Remember, it's through ourcollective efforts that we pave
the way through a healthier andmore meaningful life.
So, as I'll ask you a question,have you ever wondered if
there's a more to achievingholistic wellness than meets the
eye?
Huh, what if I told you there'sa health professional whose
(02:10):
approach might just challengeyour perspective on one wellness
?
So we get ready to uncover aworld of health and healing that
might just challenge yourpreconceptions.
So let's bring on ourdistinguished guests.
How about that, saul Sounds?
great, that's great Dr EricCorzen, welcome.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Thank you for joining me.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
So let me toot your own horn for a second.
He's a highly respectedchiropractor with a wealth of
expertise in chiropractic care,Dr Corzen.
Am I saying it right, Corzen?
Yep, yeah, that's right, thatwould be embarrassing.
No, we wouldn't.
Dr Corzen has dedicated hiscareer to helping individuals
achieve optimal health andwell-being through holistic and
(02:53):
integrative approaches.
With a deep commitment topatient care and a passion for
promoting overall wellness, drCorzen brings a unique
perspective to our discussiontoday.
So once again, welcome, drCorzen.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
It's great.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Thanks for joining us .
Dr Corzen focuses onspecializes and being a
chiropractor.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yes, it is Specifically physical medicine.
That's sort of the realm that Itypically specialize and spend
most of my time in.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So talk a little bit about that.
How does being a chiropractorin physical medicine, how does
that differ from quote unquotetraditional medical practices?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Yeah, I think chiropractors as a whole,
Chiropractors can actually be asort of a broader spectrum.
When we use the termchiropractor you can really see
a very diverse group ofprofessionals.
So it depends on who you end upseeing.
But the way I practice tends tointegrate more so into the
(04:01):
allopathic field than some otherchiropractors do.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So I got to stop you there.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Allo, allo.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Allopathic.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Tell us what does that mean Allopathic.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
So allopathic are our MD and DO colleagues.
So they are our quote unquotetraditional medical doctors and
DOs, which are the doctors ofosteopaths.
They are the ones that aredoing the traditional medical
training, medical residenciesand surgeries and all of those
(04:36):
subspecialties.
So those are from thechiropractic standpoint.
We refer to them as allopaths,but chiropractic, I think again
as a whole, tends to have a moreholistic view on health than
the allopaths do.
The allopaths tend to have alittle bit more of a
(04:58):
narrow-minded perspective,partly because of their
specialty and at this point,this very super specialist thing
that we're now creating.
Right, we've gotten past justhaving an oncologist.
Now you've got an oncologistthat is a pediatric oncologist,
an oncologist that does onlyrenal cancers and things.
(05:19):
So we've gone past having thesespecialties and gone to these
super specialists.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I'm sure you have an opinion on that, but keep going.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Yeah, I do.
But yeah, chiropractors tend tohave a more holistic view.
Not that we can't have ourspecialties as well, but we tend
to view things from a broaderperspective, if that makes sense
, more of a bird's eye view,when we evaluate and treat
patients.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
So continue to break stereotypes.
Well, yeah, often we think of achiropractor and spinal
adjustments.
Absolutely Collaborate more onwhat you feel you do as a
chiropractor and the kind ofdoctor that you are.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yeah, I mean, I think chiropractors a lot of times
get pigeonholed into being aback cracker, right, for lack of
better words.
We crack people's backs, right,we crack spines.
I look at what I do as if thereis any neuromuscular skeletal
condition any I can play a rolein either evaluating or treating
(06:28):
that condition.
So we can look at things likecarpal tunnel, we can look at
things like tension headaches.
We can look at thingsperipheral neuropathies,
osteoarthritis, ra literallyname something that impacts
muscles, joints, nerves, all ofthat, and I can play a part in
(06:49):
that.
So I think that's probably oneof the bigger differences
between just, oh, all I do iscrack backs all day.
No, that's not what I do.
I can dive deeper into a moreagain holistic sort of
evaluation and truly figure outthe root cause of what's
happening.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
So I've got questions , but take us where you want to
go.
Piece on what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Well, no, I'd love, let's go with your questions.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Because, where my mind goes is okay, you're more
than a backcracker.
You have the ability to help innot just a subspecialty, very
specific, hyper-focused way.
So I'm sure you often seepeople that come to you for back
pain and then you wind uphelping them in other fashions
(07:38):
and other ways.
Give us an example and we dothat at the recovery collective.
Someone might see me foranxiety and then they're seeing
the classical Chinese medicine,acupuncturists and orazole for
mindfulness, the holisticapproach.
So say, someone sees you forback pain and I'll be curious
how you help with back pain.
But let's go to this biggerperspective.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, also to piggyback on that question too,
a couple of the questions.
That's along those lines.
But to be more specific too,from the point of view of
wellness, I do want to hearabout your background, how you,
what drew you to this field, andalso that question about
holistic.
The way I understand is thatwhen and why I should go see a
(08:21):
particular practitioner.
But the thing with holistic isthat I don't need to wait for a
problem to go see one, but whenI go, it's already like
something is properly placedwhich builds a whole picture.
So I wanted to know more aboutthat too.
Nothing should be preventing mefrom or I don't need to wait
for a particular moment to gosee a chiropractor.
So I wanted to add those twoquestions too, which are along
(08:43):
the same lines.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I'll address yours first,then Zao, just to give some
background.
So I've been in practice alittle over 10 years.
I have been a professor forabout the same time as well.
My sort of like passion forteaching comes from trying to
help build up our profession andreally advance and progress it
(09:04):
forward.
I want to teach the nextgeneration and really move
forward.
One of the topics I love toteach on is anatomy, though, and
I spent a lot of timedissecting cadavers and teaching
from both a lecture and a labstandpoint, and I really love
incorporating clinical aspectsinto.
How do we draw just basicanatomy into the actual clinical
(09:26):
application of seeing patientsright?
And it's so crucial for what wedo, for what I do, especially
as a chiropractor in thebiomechanical, physical medicine
realm neuromuscular, skeletal Ilove getting into that, I dive
into that stuff.
So that's kind of a backgroundon me.
But yes, so from a holisticstandpoint, you don't need to
(09:48):
wait for you know to have aflare up of something or have an
issue pop up to come see achiropractor.
You can see a chiropractor beevaluated and make sure that,
essentially, joints and musclesare functioning in optimal ways.
We know how to look at that.
At least good qualitychiropractors know how to look
at that and can help you processthat, and then can also not
(10:10):
only do things hands on with youin the office, but good quality
chiropractors should then alsobe able to give you exercises or
educate you on self-caretechniques that you can then use
at home or on your own toreinforce things that we can do
in the office too.
Does that?
Does that help answer thatquestion?
Yeah, okay, cool.
(10:31):
And then, luke, you were askingabout back pain.
Right, as an example, you knowa patient comes in with back
pain.
How else do I help them?
Right, that was your question.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, I'm glad it's all slowed me down because this
is good for the listener.
Yeah, what?
What sparked you to do thisfield?
What?
That's a great question.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
I actually went to college thinking I was going to
become a physical therapist and,at the time, to be totally like
, transparent, at the time thestate I was practicing and did
not allow physical therapistdirect access to patients, and I
really struggle with having theautonomy to think for myself
and be able to Act on my ownrather than just via a script
(11:15):
from an orthopedist or painmanagement doc or whoever.
So I started exploring optionslike how do I, how do I use the
knowledge that I'm gonna developand not have to just function
underneath someone's Authorityand oversight all the time?
So that sort of lead me downdifferent Explorations and I
landed on chiropractic, actuallythanks to, unfortunately, a
(11:38):
Late friend of mine who's becomemy mentor, aaron Wolfe.
He actually passed away thisthis Memorial weekend, but he
was the first chiropractor Iever shadowed.
I decided to go to the sameschool he went to because I just
loved, again, his sort of likeholistic viewpoint of how do we,
how do we just help people?
And and that's that was hiswhole thing like it doesn't
(12:01):
matter if you're a high schoolathlete or if you're a
stay-at-home mom, like how do Ihelp you?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
So so that's where that came from.
Yeah, so you and body, theholistic approach.
But let's find out more aboutthat.
Someone comes to you for backpain and then how do you help
them find Explorer all parts ofhealth and wellness for them?
Yeah, I mean, obviously thefirst thing is a especially as a
chiropractor.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
People Typically are expecting to come to you and
leave better than they feltwalking in, right.
So I have to then go throughthe process of evaluating,
figuring out what's actuallyhappening, what caused the back
pain, what makes it better, whatmakes it worse, etc.
Right, and then do something inthe office to help them and
then again reinforce thatoutside the office.
But through that process, a lotof times I can figure out okay,
(12:48):
well, if you were, if you'vegot six kids, that you're, you
know, shuttling around all thesedifferent activities and your
stress levels are super high.
And there's other things maybehappening on, you know, in the
background or whatever.
There's different avenues thatwe can start to explore with
like, hey, I want you to go talkto a therapist, I want you to
go do acupuncture and I need youto get a big one.
(13:10):
That I talked about.
A lot of sleep Patients a lot oftimes lack quality sleep and
there are times like, hey, whatposition should I sleep in, or
what should I do?
And there's times I just tellpatients I don't care, I just
want you to get good sleep, forright now we can talk about
sleep positions, we can talkabout, you know Different
stressors and things, but forright now I just want you to get
good quality sleep.
So those are different avenuesas sort of like a generic that I
(13:33):
typically talk about with a lotof patients.
What do you think, zoe?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, lower back pain you know that that spoke to me
and you from the point of viewof holistic to.
I have limited experience withchiropractors as a client, but I
did have recurring theme in mylife when lower back pain comes
along with stress, you know,when there is like financial
related, emotional related, andso it got me thinking about that
(13:59):
.
I wanted to ask you to wherehow common I feel like it's a
common problem for many peoplelower back pain.
Also, what's your take on thatmind-body connection that, like
when there is a back pain it'slike a manifestation of some
kind of a stress or emotionalrelated, mental, you know,
(14:20):
well-being related?
Has that been your experienceas well?
Absolutely, as you're talkingone of a patient from this week
actually comes to mind.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
So there's a patient that was actually having some
back pain after a car accidentand I saw her and you know pain
scales were.
You know she was a seven toeight out of ten on the pain
scale, which is pretty darn high, especially because it was
weeks after the incident, right,and so I saw her and then she,
she felt better after I saw herand then she came in a week
(14:50):
later and she comes in and she'slike you know what I had no
pain after I saw you until Idrove past the intersection
where that, where that accidentoccurred.
So, as you're talking about,that's all that that was one of
the one of the patients thisweek actually that you know pops
up Of.
She literally has thatmind-body connection of her pain
(15:10):
literally started the minuteshe drove to the intersection
and she told me she made a turnaround the corner and then her
pain went away.
So she has that you knowtraumatic experience that now
triggers it every single time.
So she has told me she sharedwith me last time I saw her.
She actually tries to avoidthat route so that way she
doesn't trigger this becauseshe's not really a patient.
(15:32):
That's not really a patient.
That's not really a patient.
That's not really a patientBecause when she was in the
office recently to see me, shefelt great, she was totally fine
.
The only she gets that.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Pain is what that as a therapistśmy, 백 demek bales,
are going off read and you usethe word yeah, yeah, it's, the
mind-body connection is huge.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah, so I Absolutely agree with those are all that.
There's a huge mind-body and wewe see it all the time,
especially Especially you knowthis is the person I'm talking
about right now more of an acutesituation because of the car
accident but when we start toget into patients that deal with
chronic pain.
Chronic pain is such a hugetopic when it comes to the
(16:17):
biopsychosocial experiences thatpeople bring to the table when
you're treating them.
So chronic pain is just socomplicated.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Along with that, too, are there also characteristics
of a client who, either in termsof mindset whether or not they
can make the process moreefficient and speedy or
characteristics that can slowdown the process, based on
whether or not they're at andhow resistant or how willing
(16:47):
they are, in a way.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Absolutely yeah, and one of the big things is does a
patient want to get better?
That is honestly one of thethings and that's one of the
factors when I evaluate apatient that I can almost I
don't want to say instantly, buton most patients I have a
fairly good read on in thatfirst session of do they
actually want to get better ordo they want me to just fix them
?
Right.
(17:08):
Because a lot of people come topractitioners with the
mentality of, well, you're thedoctor, you're the one with the
experience, the training, all ofthat, you fix me, versus the
concept of how do I takeownership for my own health?
And, yeah, I'm here, I'm thedoctor, I can guide you along
that process.
But really, ultimately, this ison you.
I can provide you steps to take, all of the guidelines that you
(17:33):
may need to kind of get to thepoint where you would like to go
, but it's not on me, it's onyou, right?
So, and that that is adifficult sort of conversation,
depending on the patient, youhave to, you know, read that
situation carefully.
One of the big one of theprobably one of the biggest
problems that I see with a lotof the patients that I have is
(17:56):
diagnostic imaging.
So I'll expand on that.
Diagnostic imaging in the senseof X-rays, mri, ct scans you
name it right Ultrasounds,whatever.
A lot of times patients willget these procedures done and
they'll cling to a diagnosis.
They will then identifythemselves as a diagnosis right,
(18:17):
so they will no longer be apatient with low back pain.
They'll be oh, I have an L4L5disc herniation, and that is
just, mentally, that is whatthey associate themselves with
and that's how they identifythemselves.
And then they thus define allof these episodes of back pain
based on well, I have a disc,and they just write it off as I
have a disc, I have a disc, Ihave a disc.
(18:38):
And that can be reallyproblematic, because then we go
through these episodic flare upsand they've never really
learned how to deal with itbeyond just identifying as that.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yeah, the way I explain it and we have the same
philosophy it's the differencebetween treatment and recovery.
You can treat someone, you cantreat a diagnosis, but where is
the insight, where is the action, where's the change?
Where's the responsibility andempowering them to, whether it's
get to the underlying causesand conditions or to make these
(19:13):
changes that are necessary foran actual change.
Pass the diagnosis?
Yeah so talk more about chronicpain for us, will you?
There's therapists thatspecialize in it.
There's chiropractors that seea lot of people with chronic
pain, so tell us more about that.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Yeah, chronic pain is a really difficult group of
patients to treat Not in thesense that I don't enjoy
treating them, because I do, butit's difficult sometimes to get
a handle on what we just talkedabout.
Can we truly make a differenceand impact them, versus doing
what they've seen withpotentially 10 other providers
(19:54):
in the past, where it's justlike they see them and they kind
of just get pushed through themill, if you will?
So I think one of the thingswith chronic pain again, if I
see patients with chronic painsituations, I typically prefer
(20:14):
to have them treated in amultidisciplinary approach as
well.
I will 100% not claim that Ican handle and manage all of
their comorbidities.
There's just there's too muchhappening there, right, whether
it's a biomechanical thing or ifit's a psychological or
emotional situation.
(20:34):
I simply cannot handle all ofthat.
And I think that's one of thecool things about healthcare,
though, too, at this point right, that we have the ability for
me to do what I do really welland do physical medicine, but
also recognize my limitationsand know that there's other
folks out there that are reallygood at what they do.
Right, and then I develop thatnetwork to go okay, this is I'm
(20:59):
not a therapist right and acounselor or psychologist,
anything along those lines, butI can connect with you and then
get you to the people that youneed to.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Part of the reason is why you're on today After we've
had a handful of conversations.
It's a collective solution tohealth and wellness.
It's the example of the primarycare doctor and someone has
blood pressure through the roofand, yes, you could give a
medication to fix the diagnosismomentarily.
(21:31):
But there's other things thatcould have a positive effect on
decreasing the blood pressure.
Anxiety, stress, physicalhealth, nutrition, body
connection all those things canhave just a multidisciplinary
approach.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I imagine it's the samething for me dealing with, maybe
potentially a chronic painclient.
(21:52):
If they saw you and I at thesame time, that might help the
individual multidisciplinaryapproach.
Absolutely, you're not asubspecialist in just chronic
back pain.
That would probably be reallybad in your situation.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Yeah, it would.
What about all those rotatorcuffs?
I need to see Exactly, yeah,planar fasciitis and all of that
.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Absolutely.
But the ability to go oh, youcan still look at this in
different realms andperspectives to help the healing
process and change the change,it Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, is there also any aspect of for lack of a
better word like education oreducating the client?
Since you mentioned aboutanatomy how passionate you are,
and I've been thinking aboutthat too that our body is so
complex and there are just somany parts that I wasn't aware
of.
But only if my liver is feelingI need to learn about liver
(22:46):
kind of situation.
It doesn't have to be that way.
So I started doing yogarecently and I'm just learning
more about where things are andhow things are aligned and stuff
like that.
There's so much freedom in thatawareness when we become aware
of it.
So other in your experience too, where people learn more about
their own anatomy by seeing achiropractor and then benefiting
(23:09):
from that.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Yeah, they do.
Actually, that's one of myfavorite things is when I see
that light bulb go on forpatients, whether it's from me,
you know, palpating or showingthem.
Honestly, that that's probablymy favorite thing to do is when
I can actually demonstrate andshow them.
So one of the things I like todo, I like to assess something,
treat it and then reassess it.
(23:31):
So that way, not only formyself from like a clinical
standpoint is that reallyvaluable information, obviously,
to know if what I'm doing isactually making impact but also
from a patient standpoint.
There's that education, or thatbuy-in piece, if you will, of
like, oh shoot, this is actuallychanging or doing something
different, right?
So, for example, I might watchsomebody do like an overhead
(23:53):
squat, where they put their armsoverhead and they squat right,
and then I may pick up on somedeficits or dysfunction, maybe
even some pain that they'redealing with.
I'll go and treat them, dosomething, have them do an
overhead squat again, and mostoften they see something almost
immediately change, whether it'spain or like oh wow, my hip has
more free range of motion,whatever it is.
(24:13):
So there's a huge educationalcomponent to actually showing
patients how this applies towhatever they're dealing with
you know.
So yeah, to your point.
I take patients through yogaexercises all the time and
honestly, what I like to do withthose is I like to put them on
the floor and say show me whatyou're doing, and I don't
(24:36):
critique them, I don't doanything.
I literally just start outinitially with okay, you say you
know how to do even something.
You know how to do child's posesomething really basic.
Right, show me how you're doingchild's pose.
And probably six out of 10times they're doing something
that, for them specifically,might not be the most ideal
(24:56):
position or movement forthemselves.
It's not bad.
But for whatever condition Imight be treating or walking
them through, they may need atweak or a modification that I
might be able to identify,because no one's actually taking
the time to sit there and golike, hey, that for your
condition isn't great, so let'smodify this or tweak this, or
maybe not sink into it as deep,right, like there's some things
(25:18):
that we can do.
So I love doing that part ofyeah, show me what you're doing
right now and how can we tweakthat?
Because I'm a big proponent ofmovement.
I don't want patients.
I very rarely tell patients torest, very rarely right.
There's an acute ankle sprain,okay, fine, we got to rest a
little bit, right, that's onething.
But for the most part, I tellpatients, motion is lotion.
(25:42):
We got to get your jointsmoving, we got to get the
muscles moving.
Everything needs to move inconjunction, but we need to do
it in the right way, in anappropriate, directed, guided
way, and that's again where Icome into play as far as, like,
how do I educate you on themovements you need to be doing,
in which directions, howfrequently?
All of those things right.
So I'm a big proponent of let'skeep you moving, but let's do
(26:05):
it the right way.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
When you actually tweak or modify something.
What is the belief system whenyou do that?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Initially.
Most often it's to helpmitigate pain, most often so.
An example I like to use issomeone with Lumbar disc
herniation.
People with Lumbar discherniations tend to and this is
just literally based onstatistics it's like over 80% of
(26:37):
patients with Lumbar discherniations feel more symptoms
when they flex or when they bendforward than they do when they
extend.
So, based on that concept and ofcourse there's other ways to
test this based on that concept,what I'll do is I'll have
someone show me how they'redoing a child's pose, how
they're doing Cobra, and I willtweak and modify that, mainly
(26:58):
for pain initially, but I alsouse that later on to get them
through the fear avoidance stage, because once we get out of
this acute pain or whateversituation they're feeling, a lot
of times patients are like well, you know, I have a disc so I
can't ever bend forward.
Well, no, a healthy spine, ahealthy body, you should be able
to bend at some point.
(27:18):
I'm not saying you can't everbend, right?
So we need to work towards like, let's tweak it initially and
then let's test it later on downthe road and make sure that you
can flex and make sure child'spose does feel okay, that you
can move into there, becauseonce your tissues are healthier,
you should be able to push themin certain directions and not
cause flare ups.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
And in that case are you literally moving the
vertebrae?
What are you doing to make thepain alleviate in that example,
lower back, l4, l5?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah, so like a lumbar disc herniation.
You know that example when yougo into extension, the pressure
that gets put on the discposteriorly actually forces the
herniation anteriorly, away fromthe nerve roots that it's
potentially impacting, Whereasif you flex, it forces it
posteriorly and you end uphitting the nerve roots again.
So initially with a you know,disc herniation or disc bulge,
(28:12):
as a lot of people refer to themdisc bulges they typically
again respond better toextension.
So initially I'll put them intoextension and I'll press, I'll
have them do cobra moves whileI'm pressing.
There's various techniques.
Sometimes I adjust them,sometimes I don't, and that's
again, you know, patientdependent.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
So you're adjusting the spine, you're adjusting the
vertebrae.
In that circumstance,potentially, yeah, helping the
joints move better right.
Gotcha.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah, there's a couple schools of thoughts there
, luke, about, aboutchiropractic.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Give it to us, give it to us, give it to us.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Yeah, there's a couple schools of thought there
on chiropractors and what weactually do.
So the, the oh, this is.
So the two ends of the spectrumright are the, what they're
called the straights.
Okay, and the straights referto nothing other than they come
straight from the philosophy ofchiropractic, which is we adjust
(29:16):
the vertebrae, we move thevertebrae, and there is a whole
host of potential benefits thatwe may be able to see.
The difficult part with that issome of it is well documented
and some of it is not.
And you know, for myself, beingvery science oriented, evidence
based right, I want to be ableto see some evidence and some
(29:38):
like research behind what we'redoing.
So you've got the straights onone side that have a lot of, I
would say, anecdotal evidencethat what they do is beneficial
and I'm not taking that awaybecause there are there's a lot
out there on that but then youhave what's called the mixers on
the other side, and the mixerscombine the concept of the
(29:59):
holistic chiropractic philosophyand evidence or research and
science into that.
So that's where we start to lookat and what I talk about with
patients is when I perform anadjustment, I'm not putting
bones back into place, I'mhelping joints move better.
And by helping the joints movebetter, there's three things I
focus on Reduction and pain,increased range of motion and
(30:22):
reduced muscle hypertenicity,reducing muscle spasms locally
in the area.
And those are three things thatI feel totally comfortable
saying because they are backedup by research.
We know that when an adjustmentis performed, those three
things can happen, at least inthe short term.
And again, that's where, like,I can do something in the office
, I can adjust you.
That's a short term effect.
(30:43):
How do I teach you to dosomething outside of the office
to reinforce what I just did inthe office?
That's where the educationcomponent exercise, etc.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
So often, I think often people get frustrated
because you call them thestraighters.
Yeah, it's funny that, hey, youcome in, you put on a heat pad.
I'm going to treat you like anumber, yeah.
Crack your back, Okay, go,that's it Okay.
And not have the teachingeducation?
(31:13):
Well, how long is this going tohappen for?
Or what the art of a teacher,right, I mean, that's to me the
difference where I think somepeople get frustrated with.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Yeah, and, honestly, for a patient or a consumer that
doesn't know anything aboutchiropractic, they'd have no
clue Again, that's kind of whatI talked about initially when we
opened this conversation wasyou could go into any number of
chiropractic offices and have avery different experience
because you don't know whatyou're walking into, right, and
that, yeah, that part is just socrucial.
(31:45):
It's funny because, being inthe chiropractic world now both
being a student myself and nowbeing a professor I've seen like
this whole sort of likespectrum of chiropractors.
But in our field we havesomething called the flying
seven, which, like Luke, whatyou're talking about is a
patient being treated likethey're running through the mill
(32:06):
, and this is the flying seven.
So chiropractors call it theflying seven because it's a
cervical adjustment, so a neckadjustment on the left, on the
right, which is two.
You get three thoracicadjustments and then a low back
adjustment left and right, andyou end up with seven, and they
literally do the same exactthing for every single patient.
This is not how I practice, Iknow.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
The cookie cutter, it's the it is a very, very
common.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
I mean you will literally see it in thousands of
chiropractic offices aroundthis country.
I mean there's there's noquestion about it.
But it's funny because, again,unless I had told you about that
, you'd never no one knows aboutthat.
So we start getting it outthere that this is something
that is actually like fairlycommon practice.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
So in terms of, you know, making the problem go away
or reducing the pain, but alsolike maintenance, other things
that you suggest, or is therelike a particular frequency
after, afterwards or exercisethat they can do, or some kind
of dietary suggestions as well,in terms of like holistic, how
(33:14):
yeah, how expand, how much doesit expand?
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Oh yeah, I mean, you know, from a holistic standpoint
, I feel like the sky's thelimit.
Right, like we can, we can getinto so much.
From my standpoint though froma chiropractic, you know,
viewpoint that that focuses onon this biomechanical and pain
management and physical medicinerealm.
Typically, once I see patientsget through pain and we get
(33:38):
through episodes, I will usuallygive them essentially like a
two week trial run where theydon't see me and they are
supposed to be doing the thingsthat I taught them, and after
two weeks they come back in,they see me and we do a check in
.
I may adjust them at that point,may tweak some exercises again
(33:58):
and teach them how to dodifferent things, and then I
typically, as long as things, aslong as their presentation is
moving in a positive direction,I will then give them a month
where they had don't have aninteraction with me, unless they
have a flare up and of course Italked to them about that.
But I like to have patientslive their lives without me
(34:20):
intervening, because if they'redependent on me all the time,
it's not helpful for theiroverall health, right?
I need them again.
This goes back to thatownership piece of like.
They need to take ownership oftheir health.
I can guide them through thatprocess, but I want them to take
ownership of that.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
So is an example of the biomechanical and physical
medicine that you would get to apoint where it would be
appropriate to teach them how tostrengthen muscle and balances.
What would be some examples?
Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so quickly.
I start off with more of what Iwould call stretching or
mobility exercises.
Right, how do we lengthenmuscles, how do we make sure
joints are moving better, andthen from there we focus
exercises on more stability andstrengthening exercises.
So there's sort of this pyramidthat we build upon, right, like
we lay the foundation thatjoints can move and the correct
(35:09):
planes and then in with theirright amount of degrees that
they need, and then we buildupon that, and then we build
upon that, and then we buildupon that and really the
ultimate sort of like oh my goshwe got there is more
complicated multi joint, multiplanar movements.
Right, like, if somebody can do, you know, an overhead squat
(35:33):
with like a press overhead andthen do like a trunk rotation of
some kind, like they literallyjust hit every joint in their
body and that's awesome, like,so it's that kind of like.
How do I take them?
You know baby steps throughthis process.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
So I know there's at least one or two or a handful of
listeners that are going okay,how long and it's not cookie
cutter how long does it quoteunquote typically take to get to
that point for the individualthat isn't just being treated,
that is doing functionality,that is taking action in their
recovery, to get to that pointof strengthening the muscles and
(36:11):
taking responsibility for theirpart?
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Yeah, usually I would say.
And again, you know, thisvaries depending on the
condition and the patient.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Probably huge variance.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Yeah, yeah, huge variance, right.
I mean their age, their youknow their functionality prior
to whatever they're having youknow.
A lot of things factor intothis.
I would say probably with me 10sessions or less is usually.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
I think I surprised a lot of people there, to be
honest with you.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
And honestly it probably does, because, again, a
lot of your quote unquotetraditional chiropractors will
see patients for, you know, 10times that amount.
So it's a very differentviewpoint as to how we can
actually practice.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
What are you thinking , Joe?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah, I'm thinking about what was well.
I'm thinking about this cheesystatement which got me thinking
about the Chinese proverb, orone of the proverb about you
know, if you want, thedifference between giving
somebody a fish and thenteaching them how to fish, kind
of thing.
I feel like that's veryimportant.
That's also the education partthat you mentioned.
(37:26):
That's also how we help clientat recovery collective as well.
You know we come in, which isalso what you like.
What I like about what you saidabout the willingness has to
come from the patient that doyou really want to get better?
You know, if that's the case,we'll give you tools, but long
term, you need to take ownershipfor your own health instead of
being dependent.
So that's also what I'm hearingfrom you about educating them,
(37:52):
giving them exercises.
You can come back when you need, but essentially, you're on the
track now.
You know you found a new pad oryou're back on track to get
better.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
That's a school?
Yeah, exactly, and I feel likeI want patients to know that I
am here for them.
Like you know, once we get youback on track and things are
going great and you've testedthings and you know you can
let's say, your goal is to run amarathon and you've run six of
them Great, that's awesome.
But I want you to know that ifsomething does come up in the
future, that I am the personthat you can come back to, that
(38:24):
you can trust, that you knowthat we can then move forward
again if we need to restart careor do something right, like I
want patients to have that levelof trust and comfort with me,
that they know that I will takecare of them and I'll guide them
through this process again, youknow.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
You know, speaking of trust and comfort, safety is
obviously paramount, in the formof health care.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
What are some contraindications or some red
flags where you would go?
Not right now.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Yeah, that's a great question, Luke, because I think,
unfortunately, the media hasdone somewhat of a disservice or
some damage to the chiropracticprofession when it talks about
some of these very rareinstances of serious
complications from chiropracticcare, probably most notably our
(39:17):
stroke.
Right, that's probably the mostcommon thing that folks are
afraid of and, like any medicalprocedure, I don't care if
you're going to your primarycare doctor and getting
prescribed a medication or ifyou're going to an acupuncturist
and getting needling done orseeing a chiropractor there is
inherent risk in anything.
(39:37):
So when you look at theresearch and the studies on
these risks for complicationsfrom chiropractors, they're
extremely, extremely low.
The most recent study that wasout there showed that patients
that are having, or are likelygoing to have, a stroke have as
(39:58):
much chance of having thatstroke sitting in their primary
care office as they do sittingwith me in my office as a
chiropractor, and that is mainlybecause the stroke is already
occurring.
Yeah, so a chiropractor.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
I'm trying to see how effecting the spine can be an
adverse effect for a stroke.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Help me out here, yeah so forceful manipulation to
the spine can impact thearteries that run through the
neck and into the skull.
So if there is a stroke that'soccurring sometimes due to
what's called an arterialdissection meaning the arterial
walls are separating you canhave that separation occur.
(40:38):
A blood clot will form.
You can have the adjustmentoccur from a chiropractor which
will sort of finish off thedissection of the artery and
that can then send the clotfurther into the brain.
Causing a stroke Makes sense.
But again, when you look atthat research, there's really no
difference between sitting inmy office or sitting in a
(40:59):
primary care office, becausemost often it's gonna happen
regardless.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
How could you pinpoint it to that?
Yeah, as being the cause?
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
And that's the problem is that how do we
actually label that as acausative event or factor?
And for the most part, youcan't.
For the most part you can't.
Now, these are things that Italk about with patients, right
Like there's again, there'sinherent risk in any medical
procedure.
I don't care what it is,there's risk in everything.
Infection with acupuncture it'sa risk Like super minimal, very
(41:32):
, very low, but it's a potentialright Like it could happen.
So there's conversations thatyou need to have with patients,
but I think when it comes to agood evaluation, for the most
part I won't adjust somebodyjust to adjust to them.
I will more often than not bevery cautious with my care,
(41:56):
versus the opposite in beingoverly aggressive with my care.
And there's certain screeningmethods we can use, right.
But for the most part we needto do a good physical evaluation
, take a good history and thenwe can make some determination
of whether or not I've sentpatients out for ultrasounds on
their carotid arteries to makesure they're they don't have
(42:17):
plaque building up, cause I'vecaught some of those where I'm
glad I did, because now they'reon medications at their primary
care doc and now we're managingthat together, but I'm a hundred
percent not adjusting theirneck, because I could take one
of those plaques and send itupward, and that's not what I
want to do, right?
So I do other things with them.
I do stretches, I teach themhow to do stretches, I do some
(42:38):
soft tissue work.
We can do other things.
We don't have to just again,that goes back to what we talked
about.
Right, chiropractors are notjust back crackers.
I can do a lot more than justthat.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Yeah, so sometimes doctors with pain or chronic
pain can get a little triggerhappy with X-rays and things
like that.
What is your philosophy ondoing X-rays?
Speaker 3 (43:05):
So my philosophy on X-rays is unless there is a red
flag, immediately, you know andred flags can be depending on
what you look at patients age,recent trauma, infection you
know, a past medical history ofcancer or some other like
conditions or diseases thatthey've been diagnosed with in
(43:27):
the past.
Right, there are situations Isend people off for x-rays
almost immediately.
For the most part I would say80% of the time, if not more.
For the most part I treatpatients for two weeks
conservatively before I considerimaging.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
So what would you?
That's pretty typical.
You've got some listeners goingwell, not my chiropractor.
What would you tell theconsumer that you know now
they'd be more open to seeing achiropractor that goes to
someone and says, all right,well, let's do x-rays.
What would be some goodquestions that you would
recommend that they?
Speaker 3 (44:02):
ask or yeah, from a patient standpoint, I would ask
the question of why?
How is this going to impact thetreatment plan that you're
going to provide for me?
That's what I would want toknow, because it's the same
conversation I have when I sendpatients out for x-rays.
If I send you out for an x-rayor an MRI or something, I'm
expecting to find something.
(44:24):
I'm not just going to x-ray you, to x-ray you to see
structurally what's happening.
I'm expecting to find somethingthat is going to change our
treatment plan, and that's not afun conversation to have, but
there's a reason and a necessityfor it.
Right, versus this, it's notused as a screening method, I
guess is the best way I can putthat right.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
I'm going to use a car analogy and I don't know
cars.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
Yeah, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
My wife's Prius is a very old Prius so we have to see
if it's worth it.
So when we took the car in andthey wanted to do x amount of
dollars and I said, okay, why?
Well, I know I don't know why.
So what are you trying to findout by doing this synopsis?
I know you don't know what it'sgoing to be, but I want to know
(45:14):
why you're thinking and whatcould you potentially find that
goes.
This is worth checking intoBecause if not for my car, I
don't want to spend thousands ofdollars and it's not worth that
.
It's an older Prius.
I think that can be with anytype of diagnoses when it comes
to x-rays, mris and especiallywith chronic pain and, we see,
with a lot of doctor's offices.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Yeah, absolutely, is that?
Speaker 1 (45:37):
a fair analogy.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Yeah, no, it is, it totally is.
Yeah, I mean, let's use cars,why not?
No, no, it's a fair analogy.
And again, I think that's wherelet's not use x-rays as a
screening tool, but rather as adiagnostic.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
That's a better way of saying it.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Yeah, if I need to find a diagnostic reason to do
x-rays, and let's do that.
But a lot of timeschiropractors will do x-rays as
a screening tool and it soundsbad.
They almost use it as a scaretactic as well.
They throw a film up andnowadays we don't have film.
Back when I graduated, weactually process things in dark
(46:14):
rooms, but now it's all digitalright.
So they throw films up and theyshow you oh my gosh, you have
this curvature that you'relacking in your neck and you
should really have thiscurvature.
Well, is that inaccurate?
No, but is that the cause ofyour problem?
Is that what's actuallycontributing to the situation
that you're coming in with?
And at the same time, again,nothing against imaging or
(46:36):
diagnosis with MRIs or CTEs orx-rays, but they are static
images of moving body parts, soit is a piece of the puzzle.
It is not everything.
So even when patients come intome with an MRI and they're like
well, clearly I have a lumbardisc herniation, you can see it
on the MRI.
That doesn't mean that's yourgenerator of pain.
(46:57):
We found something on an imagethat doesn't mean that's a pain
generator for you.
You could have pain coming fromelsewhere and you are just
locked into the fact that that'son the imaging report or
whatever.
So that's something I tellpatients like we need to be
cautious with.
I'm all for getting diagnosticsdone if we need to, but it's a
(47:18):
piece of the puzzle.
It's not everything.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
Yeah, I really value this conversation.
I'm a firm believer about thisconcept of inner knowing or
intuitive awareness in a way,like our body is always giving
us signals when something's notright, but then we also have a
tendency to either ignore it orget busy.
So there's something verypowerful about because I've
(47:42):
experienced it myself too thathow much I'm missing out on life
because of a pain.
But then our brain acclimates toit, which is sad because but
then, once that pain is relieved, you enjoy life so much.
So many doors open up.
It's also as a result of me notgiving attention to what my
body is signaling, and I canjust go as far as that, but if I
(48:03):
get too attached to adiagnostic, I'm not listening to
my body but I'm listening tothe image, where it's all about
knowing and listening to ourbody and then taking appropriate
action.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
Absolutely.
And I mean you bring up areally great point there too,
zoll is that there are somepatients that are really, really
good at listening to theirbodies and there are some
patients that have no clue whattheir bodies are telling them.
It's really funny, especiallyfrom my standpoint of I'll tell
a patient, like, okay, well,show me this exercise like a
(48:38):
bent over row or whatever.
And I see it and I'm like whatare you doing?
And then I'm like, okay, youneed to drop your shoulder, make
sure you're not doing this,tucking your up, whatever it is.
And then I tell them to dothose things, I demonstrate it
for them.
And then they do it again andit's the same.
And I'm like you have no cluewhat your body's doing in space.
Like you're such there's such adisconnect here between your
(48:59):
body and what you said.
Like that intuition you havewith your own body is a huge
component.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
And that's true with physical, that's true with
emotions, that's true Absolutely.
And tears, I mean, that'ssomething that holds true, yeah
absolutely Across alldisciplines.
Yeah, that's right.
Where would you likechiropractic care to fit in the
broader landscape of healthcare?
Where would you like it to be?
Speaker 3 (49:29):
That's such a loaded question we dive deep, I know.
No, it's good.
It's good, I think, one of thebiggest things for me.
Again, I would love to dispelthe myth or the connotation that
chiropractors just crackbacks.
I would love to have thechiropractic profession be a
(49:53):
respected profession versus whatI.
So I differentiatechiropractors a couple of
different ways, One of thembeing like if you just adjust
backs, in my opinion you're notreally a doctor, You're a
technician.
I can teach my wife to adjustsomebody's back right.
She will not, however, have thediagnostic skills and the
(50:13):
physician qualities that I have,which is when to adjust, when
not to adjust, how to adjust allthose red flags of diagnosis
and referring out and tweakingthings right.
She doesn't have any of that.
So there's a difference therein being a technician and just
being able to do a flying seven.
I could teach you to do thattomorrow.
It's not that big a deal, right?
Yeah, there's a whole otherclinical component to that.
(50:35):
I would love to see that ourprofession as a whole move
towards something beyond just abackcracker move towards a more
holistic minded but stillbringing that evidence component
into how we practice and beingable to fit in with all of the
(50:55):
other providers that are outthere too.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
You got me thinking.
It sounds like there can be.
I don't know how deep inphilosophy we're gonna go here
or what the science says.
Yeah, it sounds like your formof chiropractic care can be
proactive.
What does that look like?
How many people see you?
(51:20):
I don't have any pain, but Ithink that, whether it's spinal
alignment or maybe you can helpme out with this question Can
chiropractic be a proactive formof treatment?
Speaker 3 (51:34):
Absolutely yeah, and I have patients that see me that
are not in pain.
They go.
You know what I tend to.
Let's put it this way I don'thave low back pain episodes when
I see you regularly, when I'mproactively seeking you for care
.
I don't have my flare-ups thatare like 8 out of 10 on the pain
(51:54):
scale, debilitating low backpain or neck pain or headaches
or what have you.
I don't have those episodeswhen I am proactively doing
things about it, right.
So there's 100% yes, let's dosome proactive care there.
There's a huge component.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
What else do you think, Enzo?
I think Enzo is really enjoyingthis conversation.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
I'm also thinking about, you know, from the point
of view of mindfulness as well,about how much again that
intuitive awareness, you knowthat, the thing about anatomy,
and there are also some specificmeditation practices in our
tradition where you meditate onthe 32 parts of the body where
bones is involved, you know,muscles, tendons are involved
(52:37):
too where you just be presentwith those and it can be, it can
have very liberating effect,you know, because, again, like
we embody our bodies all ourlife, unfortunately sometimes
without knowing what's happening, you know, and then we die.
So it's a beautiful thing tobecome aware of it and then the
conversations open up.
You know, when we see apractitioner like you, that, oh,
(52:59):
this is the part where Ihaven't been paying attention to
now I'm paying attentionbecause of pain, you know, and
yeah, I don't know, there's justso much that is we take for
granted when we're not in painyou know, which is only what I
realize when I'm in pain,because it's a very complex and
sophisticated mechanism that weembody, which is beautiful, but
(53:21):
also a lot is being missed out.
Speaker 3 (53:24):
Yeah, and you talking about that.
It's all makes me think of howI love incorporating acupuncture
, because a lot of you know,like you talked about meditation
with bones and muscles andligaments and there's a huge
component to acupuncture whenyou look at all the different
meridians and master points andthings that acupuncturists do
(53:45):
that are focused on tendons andsinews, as they refer to them,
and you know low back pain andsciatica and all of these, all
of these components that theycan focus on.
So I may have to do somedigging in the meditation part
too, because I haven't reallygone into that realm myself with
patients, but that couldabsolutely be an added benefit.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Yeah, when you're talking about lab early in your
school year, it made me think of.
This is not really practicedthat much anymore, but in the
past, in the ancient time or inthe village, when there's a dead
body, they just send it to themonastery where they look at the
body and then meditate.
You know, which is kind ofscary, but that's also part of
the process, where you cut thebody and then meditate.
The meditation part is that tokind of value your body, that
(54:30):
you're alive, but also this iswhere you end up but also
becoming very specific aboutwhat's there and what's not
there, which is kind of scary.
I've never done it, but I'veheard about that.
That body is sent to the monksand they just look at it at the
contemplate.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
Oh my gosh.
Of course they spend some timedoing cadaver workshops.
Speaker 3 (54:47):
I was gonna say seeing some monks do some
dissection would be realinteresting.
I doubt they would do it in astainless steel, sterile
environment sort of thing,pretty cold.
Yeah, yeah, I mean there is.
You know, there's a hugecomponent there, I think too,
for, like you said, appreciatingthat you know you being alive
(55:08):
and that this person, you knowit, has now passed and being
able to learn from them, like,yeah, all of my patients, all my
students, I should say all mystudents that come into the
cadaver lab, you know I reallyfocus and impress upon them how
grateful they should be and howmuch respect they should have
for the individuals that weactually get to dissect and
(55:30):
learn from, because you know thesacrifice, if you will, of
donating their body to scienceto help the rest of us learn is
a huge sacrifice and we shouldhave a mental respect for that.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
To me, there's no more beautiful puzzle than the
human body.
It's amazing how it allconnects and works together in
some way.
Speaker 3 (55:50):
It really is.
And you know, for as much as wethink we know, we still don't
know a lot.
There's still a lot ofunexplored things and things
that we're like we think we knowthat mechanism, but we don't
know that mechanism.
There's still a lot out there.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
Thank you, Dr Corson, for sharing the things that you
do know with us today.
We really appreciate itAbsolutely.
This has been awesome.
Speaker 2 (56:14):
Yeah, thank you, you're going to join this
conversation.
Speaker 1 (56:16):
So much, yeah, and thank you for shedding light on
the world of chiropractic care.
Your insights into the benefits, debunking myths and
identifying potentiallimitations have been valuable.
As we continue our journeytowards collective health and
wellness, it's essential toexplore various health care
options.
Listeners, we hope you foundthis episode enlightening and
informative and rememberunderstanding and exploring
(56:39):
different modalities in healthcare empower us to make informed
decisions about our well-being.
As always, we encourage you toconnect with us on all the
social media platforms.
And, dr Corson, where can theyfind you?
What's a good?
Speaker 3 (56:53):
I can put it on the episode notes but I was going to
say we can put some things inthe episode notes too.
But yeah, you can find me onInstagram.
Eric Corson erikorzen, is thathow you spell that?
You can find me there.
Feel free to Google me too.
I'm sure you'll find some veryold pictures of me from my
chiropractic school.
But yeah, feel free to Googleme.
(57:16):
And yeah, let's put some thingsin the in the video notes so
that they can connect with me.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
For your practice as well, and he's in the General
Rental County area as well.
So yeah well.
Thank you everyone and for Seeyou next time for another
exciting topic.
My name's Luke and this is Zah.
Thanks for listening.
See you next time, Thanks.
Welcome to A Therapist of Buddhists in you,
brought to you by the RecoveryCollective in Annapolis,
maryland.
Thanks for taking the time aswe explore a collective solution
to all things health andwellness.
I'm Luke DeBoy, the therapist,and I'm joined by my co-host,
zomo a Theravada BuddhistMeditation, life and Recovery
Coach.
Sub-zo hey Blake, it'shappening.
So we're back to the video.
(00:23):
A lot of you guys are listeningon your preferred podcast
platform and, if you'd like,feel free to check us out on
YouTube as well, and you canfind that in the episode notes,
as per usual.
So together we'll navigate tothe intersections of psychology,
spirituality, health andwellness, like usual, offering
practical insights along the way.
So thanks for tuning in,connect with us and fellow
(00:46):
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(01:07):
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And just as all we say thislike, comment, subscribe every
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I'm not vain enough to careabout the likes and comments,
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So it's just one way for peopleto have more access to this
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So if you really could spend aminute or two to comment and
(01:29):
rate and like we'd really doappreciate it.
Well, before we get going, I'llsay two more things.
If you're feeling particularlygenerous, listeners out there
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You can now show yourappreciation through our donate
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Your contribution helps andcontinue our mission of
(01:50):
uncovering solutions to allthings related to health and
wellness.
Remember, it's through ourcollective efforts that we pave
the way through a healthier andmore meaningful life.
So, as I'll ask you a question,have you ever wondered if
there's a more to achievingholistic wellness than meets the
eye?
Huh, what if I told you there'sa health professional whose
(02:10):
approach might just challengeyour perspective on one wellness
?
So we get ready to uncover aworld of health and healing that
might just challenge yourpreconceptions.
So let's bring on ourdistinguished guests.
How about that, saul Sounds?
great, that's great Dr EricCorzen, welcome.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Thank you for joining me.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
So let me toot your own horn for a second.
He's a highly respectedchiropractor with a wealth of
expertise in chiropractic care,Dr Corzen.
Am I saying it right, Corzen?
Yep, yeah, that's right, thatwould be embarrassing.
No, we wouldn't.
Dr Corzen has dedicated hiscareer to helping individuals
achieve optimal health andwell-being through holistic and
(02:53):
integrative approaches.
With a deep commitment topatient care and a passion for
promoting overall wellness, drCorzen brings a unique
perspective to our discussiontoday.
So once again, welcome, drCorzen.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
It's great.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Thanks for joining us .
Dr Corzen focuses onspecializes and being a
chiropractor.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yes, it is Specifically physical medicine.
That's sort of the realm that Itypically specialize and spend
most of my time in.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So talk a little bit about that.
How does being a chiropractorin physical medicine, how does
that differ from quote unquotetraditional medical practices?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Yeah, I think chiropractors as a whole,
Chiropractors can actually be asort of a broader spectrum.
When we use the termchiropractor you can really see
a very diverse group ofprofessionals.
So it depends on who you end upseeing.
But the way I practice tends tointegrate more so into the
(04:01):
allopathic field than some otherchiropractors do.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So I got to stop you there.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Allo, allo.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Allopathic.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Tell us what does that mean Allopathic.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
So allopathic are our MD and DO colleagues.
So they are our quote unquotetraditional medical doctors and
DOs, which are the doctors ofosteopaths.
They are the ones that aredoing the traditional medical
training, medical residenciesand surgeries and all of those
(04:36):
subspecialties.
So those are from thechiropractic standpoint.
We refer to them as allopaths,but chiropractic, I think again
as a whole, tends to have a moreholistic view on health than
the allopaths do.
The allopaths tend to have alittle bit more of a
(04:58):
narrow-minded perspective,partly because of their
specialty and at this point,this very super specialist thing
that we're now creating.
Right, we've gotten past justhaving an oncologist.
Now you've got an oncologistthat is a pediatric oncologist,
an oncologist that does onlyrenal cancers and things.
(05:19):
So we've gone past having thesespecialties and gone to these
super specialists.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I'm sure you have an opinion on that, but keep going.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Yeah, I do.
But yeah, chiropractors tend tohave a more holistic view.
Not that we can't have ourspecialties as well, but we tend
to view things from a broaderperspective, if that makes sense
, more of a bird's eye view,when we evaluate and treat
patients.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
So continue to break stereotypes.
Well, yeah, often we think of achiropractor and spinal
adjustments.
Absolutely Collaborate more onwhat you feel you do as a
chiropractor and the kind ofdoctor that you are.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yeah, I mean, I think chiropractors a lot of times
get pigeonholed into being aback cracker, right, for lack of
better words.
We crack people's backs, right,we crack spines.
I look at what I do as if thereis any neuromuscular skeletal
condition any I can play a rolein either evaluating or treating
(06:28):
that condition.
So we can look at things likecarpal tunnel, we can look at
things like tension headaches.
We can look at thingsperipheral neuropathies,
osteoarthritis, ra literallyname something that impacts
muscles, joints, nerves, all ofthat, and I can play a part in
(06:49):
that.
So I think that's probably oneof the bigger differences
between just, oh, all I do iscrack backs all day.
No, that's not what I do.
I can dive deeper into a moreagain holistic sort of
evaluation and truly figure outthe root cause of what's
happening.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
So I've got questions , but take us where you want to
go.
Piece on what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Well, no, I'd love, let's go with your questions.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Because, where my mind goes is okay, you're more
than a backcracker.
You have the ability to help innot just a subspecialty, very
specific, hyper-focused way.
So I'm sure you often seepeople that come to you for back
pain and then you wind uphelping them in other fashions
(07:38):
and other ways.
Give us an example and we dothat at the recovery collective.
Someone might see me foranxiety and then they're seeing
the classical Chinese medicine,acupuncturists and orazole for
mindfulness, the holisticapproach.
So say, someone sees you forback pain and I'll be curious
how you help with back pain.
But let's go to this biggerperspective.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, also to piggyback on that question too,
a couple of the questions.
That's along those lines.
But to be more specific too,from the point of view of
wellness, I do want to hearabout your background, how you,
what drew you to this field, andalso that question about
holistic.
The way I understand is thatwhen and why I should go see a
(08:21):
particular practitioner.
But the thing with holistic isthat I don't need to wait for a
problem to go see one, but whenI go, it's already like
something is properly placedwhich builds a whole picture.
So I wanted to know more aboutthat too.
Nothing should be preventing mefrom or I don't need to wait
for a particular moment to gosee a chiropractor.
So I wanted to add those twoquestions too, which are along
(08:43):
the same lines.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I'll address yours first,then Zao, just to give some
background.
So I've been in practice alittle over 10 years.
I have been a professor forabout the same time as well.
My sort of like passion forteaching comes from trying to
help build up our profession andreally advance and progress it
(09:04):
forward.
I want to teach the nextgeneration and really move
forward.
One of the topics I love toteach on is anatomy, though, and
I spent a lot of timedissecting cadavers and teaching
from both a lecture and a labstandpoint, and I really love
incorporating clinical aspectsinto.
How do we draw just basicanatomy into the actual clinical
(09:26):
application of seeing patientsright?
And it's so crucial for what wedo, for what I do, especially
as a chiropractor in thebiomechanical, physical medicine
realm neuromuscular, skeletal Ilove getting into that, I dive
into that stuff.
So that's kind of a backgroundon me.
But yes, so from a holisticstandpoint, you don't need to
(09:48):
wait for you know to have aflare up of something or have an
issue pop up to come see achiropractor.
You can see a chiropractor beevaluated and make sure that,
essentially, joints and musclesare functioning in optimal ways.
We know how to look at that.
At least good qualitychiropractors know how to look
at that and can help you processthat, and then can also not
(10:10):
only do things hands on with youin the office, but good quality
chiropractors should then alsobe able to give you exercises or
educate you on self-caretechniques that you can then use
at home or on your own toreinforce things that we can do
in the office too.
Does that?
Does that help answer thatquestion?
Yeah, okay, cool.
(10:31):
And then, luke, you were askingabout back pain.
Right, as an example, you knowa patient comes in with back
pain.
How else do I help them?
Right, that was your question.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, I'm glad it's all slowed me down because this
is good for the listener.
Yeah, what?
What sparked you to do thisfield?
What?
That's a great question.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
I actually went to college thinking I was going to
become a physical therapist and,at the time, to be totally like
, transparent, at the time thestate I was practicing and did
not allow physical therapistdirect access to patients, and I
really struggle with having theautonomy to think for myself
and be able to Act on my ownrather than just via a script
(11:15):
from an orthopedist or painmanagement doc or whoever.
So I started exploring optionslike how do I, how do I use the
knowledge that I'm gonna developand not have to just function
underneath someone's Authorityand oversight all the time?
So that sort of lead me downdifferent Explorations and I
landed on chiropractic, actuallythanks to, unfortunately, a
(11:38):
Late friend of mine who's becomemy mentor, aaron Wolfe.
He actually passed away thisthis Memorial weekend, but he
was the first chiropractor Iever shadowed.
I decided to go to the sameschool he went to because I just
loved, again, his sort of likeholistic viewpoint of how do we,
how do we just help people?
And and that's that was hiswhole thing like it doesn't
(12:01):
matter if you're a high schoolathlete or if you're a
stay-at-home mom, like how do Ihelp you?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
So so that's where that came from.
Yeah, so you and body, theholistic approach.
But let's find out more aboutthat.
Someone comes to you for backpain and then how do you help
them find Explorer all parts ofhealth and wellness for them?
Yeah, I mean, obviously thefirst thing is a especially as a
chiropractor.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
People Typically are expecting to come to you and
leave better than they feltwalking in, right.
So I have to then go throughthe process of evaluating,
figuring out what's actuallyhappening, what caused the back
pain, what makes it better, whatmakes it worse, etc.
Right, and then do something inthe office to help them and
then again reinforce thatoutside the office.
But through that process, a lotof times I can figure out okay,
(12:48):
well, if you were, if you'vegot six kids, that you're, you
know, shuttling around all thesedifferent activities and your
stress levels are super high.
And there's other things maybehappening on, you know, in the
background or whatever.
There's different avenues thatwe can start to explore with
like, hey, I want you to go talkto a therapist, I want you to
go do acupuncture and I need youto get a big one.
(13:10):
That I talked about.
A lot of sleep Patients a lot oftimes lack quality sleep and
there are times like, hey, whatposition should I sleep in, or
what should I do?
And there's times I just tellpatients I don't care, I just
want you to get good sleep, forright now we can talk about
sleep positions, we can talkabout, you know Different
stressors and things, but forright now I just want you to get
good quality sleep.
So those are different avenuesas sort of like a generic that I
(13:33):
typically talk about with a lotof patients.
What do you think, zoe?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, lower back pain you know that that spoke to me
and you from the point of viewof holistic to.
I have limited experience withchiropractors as a client, but I
did have recurring theme in mylife when lower back pain comes
along with stress, you know,when there is like financial
related, emotional related, andso it got me thinking about that
(13:59):
.
I wanted to ask you to wherehow common I feel like it's a
common problem for many peoplelower back pain.
Also, what's your take on thatmind-body connection that, like
when there is a back pain it'slike a manifestation of some
kind of a stress or emotionalrelated, mental, you know,
(14:20):
well-being related?
Has that been your experienceas well?
Absolutely, as you're talkingone of a patient from this week
actually comes to mind.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
So there's a patient that was actually having some
back pain after a car accidentand I saw her and you know pain
scales were.
You know she was a seven toeight out of ten on the pain
scale, which is pretty darn high, especially because it was
weeks after the incident, right,and so I saw her and then she,
she felt better after I saw herand then she came in a week
(14:50):
later and she comes in and she'slike you know what I had no
pain after I saw you until Idrove past the intersection
where that, where that accidentoccurred.
So, as you're talking about,that's all that that was one of
the one of the patients thisweek actually that you know pops
up Of.
She literally has thatmind-body connection of her pain
(15:10):
literally started the minuteshe drove to the intersection
and she told me she made a turnaround the corner and then her
pain went away.
So she has that you knowtraumatic experience that now
triggers it every single time.
So she has told me she sharedwith me last time I saw her.
She actually tries to avoidthat route so that way she
doesn't trigger this becauseshe's not really a patient.
(15:32):
That's not really a patient.
That's not really a patient.
That's not really a patientBecause when she was in the
office recently to see me, shefelt great, she was totally fine
.
The only she gets that.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Pain is what that as a therapistśmy, 백 demek bales,
are going off read and you usethe word yeah, yeah, it's, the
mind-body connection is huge.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah, so I Absolutely agree with those are all that.
There's a huge mind-body and wewe see it all the time,
especially Especially you knowthis is the person I'm talking
about right now more of an acutesituation because of the car
accident but when we start toget into patients that deal with
chronic pain.
Chronic pain is such a hugetopic when it comes to the
(16:17):
biopsychosocial experiences thatpeople bring to the table when
you're treating them.
So chronic pain is just socomplicated.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Along with that, too, are there also characteristics
of a client who, either in termsof mindset whether or not they
can make the process moreefficient and speedy or
characteristics that can slowdown the process, based on
whether or not they're at andhow resistant or how willing
(16:47):
they are, in a way.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Absolutely yeah, and one of the big things is does a
patient want to get better?
That is honestly one of thethings and that's one of the
factors when I evaluate apatient that I can almost I
don't want to say instantly, buton most patients I have a
fairly good read on in thatfirst session of do they
actually want to get better ordo they want me to just fix them
?
Right.
(17:08):
Because a lot of people come topractitioners with the
mentality of, well, you're thedoctor, you're the one with the
experience, the training, all ofthat, you fix me, versus the
concept of how do I takeownership for my own health?
And, yeah, I'm here, I'm thedoctor, I can guide you along
that process.
But really, ultimately, this ison you.
I can provide you steps to take, all of the guidelines that you
(17:33):
may need to kind of get to thepoint where you would like to go
, but it's not on me, it's onyou, right?
So, and that that is adifficult sort of conversation,
depending on the patient, youhave to, you know, read that
situation carefully.
One of the big one of theprobably one of the biggest
problems that I see with a lotof the patients that I have is
(17:56):
diagnostic imaging.
So I'll expand on that.
Diagnostic imaging in the senseof X-rays, mri, ct scans you
name it right Ultrasounds,whatever.
A lot of times patients willget these procedures done and
they'll cling to a diagnosis.
They will then identifythemselves as a diagnosis right,
(18:17):
so they will no longer be apatient with low back pain.
They'll be oh, I have an L4L5disc herniation, and that is
just, mentally, that is whatthey associate themselves with
and that's how they identifythemselves.
And then they thus define allof these episodes of back pain
based on well, I have a disc,and they just write it off as I
have a disc, I have a disc, Ihave a disc.
(18:38):
And that can be reallyproblematic, because then we go
through these episodic flare upsand they've never really
learned how to deal with itbeyond just identifying as that.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yeah, the way I explain it and we have the same
philosophy it's the differencebetween treatment and recovery.
You can treat someone, you cantreat a diagnosis, but where is
the insight, where is the action, where's the change?
Where's the responsibility andempowering them to, whether it's
get to the underlying causesand conditions or to make these
(19:13):
changes that are necessary foran actual change.
Pass the diagnosis?
Yeah so talk more about chronicpain for us, will you?
There's therapists thatspecialize in it.
There's chiropractors that seea lot of people with chronic
pain, so tell us more about that.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Yeah, chronic pain is a really difficult group of
patients to treat Not in thesense that I don't enjoy
treating them, because I do, butit's difficult sometimes to get
a handle on what we just talkedabout.
Can we truly make a differenceand impact them, versus doing
what they've seen withpotentially 10 other providers
(19:54):
in the past, where it's justlike they see them and they kind
of just get pushed through themill, if you will?
So I think one of the thingswith chronic pain again, if I
see patients with chronic painsituations, I typically prefer
(20:14):
to have them treated in amultidisciplinary approach as
well.
I will 100% not claim that Ican handle and manage all of
their comorbidities.
There's just there's too muchhappening there, right, whether
it's a biomechanical thing or ifit's a psychological or
emotional situation.
(20:34):
I simply cannot handle all ofthat.
And I think that's one of thecool things about healthcare,
though, too, at this point right, that we have the ability for
me to do what I do really welland do physical medicine, but
also recognize my limitationsand know that there's other
folks out there that are reallygood at what they do.
Right, and then I develop thatnetwork to go okay, this is I'm
(20:59):
not a therapist right and acounselor or psychologist,
anything along those lines, butI can connect with you and then
get you to the people that youneed to.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Part of the reason is why you're on today After we've
had a handful of conversations.
It's a collective solution tohealth and wellness.
It's the example of the primarycare doctor and someone has
blood pressure through the roofand, yes, you could give a
medication to fix the diagnosismomentarily.
(21:31):
But there's other things thatcould have a positive effect on
decreasing the blood pressure.
Anxiety, stress, physicalhealth, nutrition, body
connection all those things canhave just a multidisciplinary
approach.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I imagine it's the samething for me dealing with, maybe
potentially a chronic painclient.
(21:52):
If they saw you and I at thesame time, that might help the
individual multidisciplinaryapproach.
Absolutely, you're not asubspecialist in just chronic
back pain.
That would probably be reallybad in your situation.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Yeah, it would.
What about all those rotatorcuffs?
I need to see Exactly, yeah,planar fasciitis and all of that
.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Absolutely.
But the ability to go oh, youcan still look at this in
different realms andperspectives to help the healing
process and change the change,it Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, is there also any aspect of for lack of a
better word like education oreducating the client?
Since you mentioned aboutanatomy how passionate you are,
and I've been thinking aboutthat too that our body is so
complex and there are just somany parts that I wasn't aware
of.
But only if my liver is feelingI need to learn about liver
(22:46):
kind of situation.
It doesn't have to be that way.
So I started doing yogarecently and I'm just learning
more about where things are andhow things are aligned and stuff
like that.
There's so much freedom in thatawareness when we become aware
of it.
So other in your experience too, where people learn more about
their own anatomy by seeing achiropractor and then benefiting
(23:09):
from that.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Yeah, they do.
Actually, that's one of myfavorite things is when I see
that light bulb go on forpatients, whether it's from me,
you know, palpating or showingthem.
Honestly, that that's probablymy favorite thing to do is when
I can actually demonstrate andshow them.
So one of the things I like todo, I like to assess something,
treat it and then reassess it.
(23:31):
So that way, not only formyself from like a clinical
standpoint is that reallyvaluable information, obviously,
to know if what I'm doing isactually making impact but also
from a patient standpoint.
There's that education, or thatbuy-in piece, if you will, of
like, oh shoot, this is actuallychanging or doing something
different, right?
So, for example, I might watchsomebody do like an overhead
(23:53):
squat, where they put their armsoverhead and they squat right,
and then I may pick up on somedeficits or dysfunction, maybe
even some pain that they'redealing with.
I'll go and treat them, dosomething, have them do an
overhead squat again, and mostoften they see something almost
immediately change, whether it'spain or like oh wow, my hip has
more free range of motion,whatever it is.
(24:13):
So there's a huge educationalcomponent to actually showing
patients how this applies towhatever they're dealing with
you know.
So yeah, to your point.
I take patients through yogaexercises all the time and
honestly, what I like to do withthose is I like to put them on
the floor and say show me whatyou're doing, and I don't
(24:36):
critique them, I don't doanything.
I literally just start outinitially with okay, you say you
know how to do even something.
You know how to do child's posesomething really basic.
Right, show me how you're doingchild's pose.
And probably six out of 10times they're doing something
that, for them specifically,might not be the most ideal
(24:56):
position or movement forthemselves.
It's not bad.
But for whatever condition Imight be treating or walking
them through, they may need atweak or a modification that I
might be able to identify,because no one's actually taking
the time to sit there and golike, hey, that for your
condition isn't great, so let'smodify this or tweak this, or
maybe not sink into it as deep,right, like there's some things
(25:18):
that we can do.
So I love doing that part ofyeah, show me what you're doing
right now and how can we tweakthat?
Because I'm a big proponent ofmovement.
I don't want patients.
I very rarely tell patients torest, very rarely right.
There's an acute ankle sprain,okay, fine, we got to rest a
little bit, right, that's onething.
But for the most part, I tellpatients, motion is lotion.
(25:42):
We got to get your jointsmoving, we got to get the
muscles moving.
Everything needs to move inconjunction, but we need to do
it in the right way, in anappropriate, directed, guided
way, and that's again where Icome into play as far as, like,
how do I educate you on themovements you need to be doing,
in which directions, howfrequently?
All of those things right.
So I'm a big proponent of let'skeep you moving, but let's do
(26:05):
it the right way.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
When you actually tweak or modify something.
What is the belief system whenyou do that?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Initially.
Most often it's to helpmitigate pain, most often so.
An example I like to use issomeone with Lumbar disc
herniation.
People with Lumbar discherniations tend to and this is
just literally based onstatistics it's like over 80% of
(26:37):
patients with Lumbar discherniations feel more symptoms
when they flex or when they bendforward than they do when they
extend.
So, based on that concept and ofcourse there's other ways to
test this based on that concept,what I'll do is I'll have
someone show me how they'redoing a child's pose, how
they're doing Cobra, and I willtweak and modify that, mainly
(26:58):
for pain initially, but I alsouse that later on to get them
through the fear avoidance stage, because once we get out of
this acute pain or whateversituation they're feeling, a lot
of times patients are like well, you know, I have a disc so I
can't ever bend forward.
Well, no, a healthy spine, ahealthy body, you should be able
to bend at some point.
(27:18):
I'm not saying you can't everbend, right?
So we need to work towards like, let's tweak it initially and
then let's test it later on downthe road and make sure that you
can flex and make sure child'spose does feel okay, that you
can move into there, becauseonce your tissues are healthier,
you should be able to push themin certain directions and not
cause flare ups.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
And in that case are you literally moving the
vertebrae?
What are you doing to make thepain alleviate in that example,
lower back, l4, l5?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah, so like a lumbar disc herniation.
You know that example when yougo into extension, the pressure
that gets put on the discposteriorly actually forces the
herniation anteriorly, away fromthe nerve roots that it's
potentially impacting, Whereasif you flex, it forces it
posteriorly and you end uphitting the nerve roots again.
So initially with a you know,disc herniation or disc bulge,
(28:12):
as a lot of people refer to themdisc bulges they typically
again respond better toextension.
So initially I'll put them intoextension and I'll press, I'll
have them do cobra moves whileI'm pressing.
There's various techniques.
Sometimes I adjust them,sometimes I don't, and that's
again, you know, patientdependent.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
So you're adjusting the spine, you're adjusting the
vertebrae.
In that circumstance,potentially, yeah, helping the
joints move better right.
Gotcha.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah, there's a couple schools of thoughts there
, luke, about, aboutchiropractic.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Give it to us, give it to us, give it to us.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Yeah, there's a couple schools of thought there
on chiropractors and what weactually do.
So the, the oh, this is.
So the two ends of the spectrumright are the, what they're
called the straights.
Okay, and the straights referto nothing other than they come
straight from the philosophy ofchiropractic, which is we adjust
(29:16):
the vertebrae, we move thevertebrae, and there is a whole
host of potential benefits thatwe may be able to see.
The difficult part with that issome of it is well documented
and some of it is not.
And you know, for myself, beingvery science oriented, evidence
based right, I want to be ableto see some evidence and some
(29:38):
like research behind what we'redoing.
So you've got the straights onone side that have a lot of, I
would say, anecdotal evidencethat what they do is beneficial
and I'm not taking that awaybecause there are there's a lot
out there on that but then youhave what's called the mixers on
the other side, and the mixerscombine the concept of the
(29:59):
holistic chiropractic philosophyand evidence or research and
science into that.
So that's where we start to lookat and what I talk about with
patients is when I perform anadjustment, I'm not putting
bones back into place, I'mhelping joints move better.
And by helping the joints movebetter, there's three things I
focus on Reduction and pain,increased range of motion and
(30:22):
reduced muscle hypertenicity,reducing muscle spasms locally
in the area.
And those are three things thatI feel totally comfortable
saying because they are backedup by research.
We know that when an adjustmentis performed, those three
things can happen, at least inthe short term.
And again, that's where, like,I can do something in the office
, I can adjust you.
That's a short term effect.
(30:43):
How do I teach you to dosomething outside of the office
to reinforce what I just did inthe office?
That's where the educationcomponent exercise, etc.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
So often, I think often people get frustrated
because you call them thestraighters.
Yeah, it's funny that, hey, youcome in, you put on a heat pad.
I'm going to treat you like anumber, yeah.
Crack your back, Okay, go,that's it Okay.
And not have the teachingeducation?
(31:13):
Well, how long is this going tohappen for?
Or what the art of a teacher,right, I mean, that's to me the
difference where I think somepeople get frustrated with.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Yeah, and, honestly, for a patient or a consumer that
doesn't know anything aboutchiropractic, they'd have no
clue Again, that's kind of whatI talked about initially when we
opened this conversation wasyou could go into any number of
chiropractic offices and have avery different experience
because you don't know whatyou're walking into, right, and
that, yeah, that part is just socrucial.
(31:45):
It's funny because, being inthe chiropractic world now both
being a student myself and nowbeing a professor I've seen like
this whole sort of likespectrum of chiropractors.
But in our field we havesomething called the flying
seven, which, like Luke, whatyou're talking about is a
patient being treated likethey're running through the mill
(32:06):
, and this is the flying seven.
So chiropractors call it theflying seven because it's a
cervical adjustment, so a neckadjustment on the left, on the
right, which is two.
You get three thoracicadjustments and then a low back
adjustment left and right, andyou end up with seven, and they
literally do the same exactthing for every single patient.
This is not how I practice, Iknow.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
The cookie cutter, it's the it is a very, very
common.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
I mean you will literally see it in thousands of
chiropractic offices aroundthis country.
I mean there's there's noquestion about it.
But it's funny because, again,unless I had told you about that
, you'd never no one knows aboutthat.
So we start getting it outthere that this is something
that is actually like fairlycommon practice.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
So in terms of, you know, making the problem go away
or reducing the pain, but alsolike maintenance, other things
that you suggest, or is therelike a particular frequency
after, afterwards or exercisethat they can do, or some kind
of dietary suggestions as well,in terms of like holistic, how
(33:14):
yeah, how expand, how much doesit expand?
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Oh yeah, I mean, you know, from a holistic standpoint
, I feel like the sky's thelimit.
Right, like we can, we can getinto so much.
From my standpoint though froma chiropractic, you know,
viewpoint that that focuses onon this biomechanical and pain
management and physical medicinerealm.
Typically, once I see patientsget through pain and we get
(33:38):
through episodes, I will usuallygive them essentially like a
two week trial run where theydon't see me and they are
supposed to be doing the thingsthat I taught them, and after
two weeks they come back in,they see me and we do a check in
.
I may adjust them at that point,may tweak some exercises again
(33:58):
and teach them how to dodifferent things, and then I
typically, as long as things, aslong as their presentation is
moving in a positive direction,I will then give them a month
where they had don't have aninteraction with me, unless they
have a flare up and of course Italked to them about that.
But I like to have patientslive their lives without me
(34:20):
intervening, because if they'redependent on me all the time,
it's not helpful for theiroverall health, right?
I need them again.
This goes back to thatownership piece of like.
They need to take ownership oftheir health.
I can guide them through thatprocess, but I want them to take
ownership of that.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
So is an example of the biomechanical and physical
medicine that you would get to apoint where it would be
appropriate to teach them how tostrengthen muscle and balances.
What would be some examples?
Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so quickly.
I start off with more of what Iwould call stretching or
mobility exercises.
Right, how do we lengthenmuscles, how do we make sure
joints are moving better, andthen from there we focus
exercises on more stability andstrengthening exercises.
So there's sort of this pyramidthat we build upon, right, like
we lay the foundation thatjoints can move and the correct
(35:09):
planes and then in with theirright amount of degrees that
they need, and then we buildupon that, and then we build
upon that, and then we buildupon that and really the
ultimate sort of like oh my goshwe got there is more
complicated multi joint, multiplanar movements.
Right, like, if somebody can do, you know, an overhead squat
(35:33):
with like a press overhead andthen do like a trunk rotation of
some kind, like they literallyjust hit every joint in their
body and that's awesome, like,so it's that kind of like.
How do I take them?
You know baby steps throughthis process.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
So I know there's at least one or two or a handful of
listeners that are going okay,how long and it's not cookie
cutter how long does it quoteunquote typically take to get to
that point for the individualthat isn't just being treated,
that is doing functionality,that is taking action in their
recovery, to get to that pointof strengthening the muscles and
(36:11):
taking responsibility for theirpart?
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Yeah, usually I would say.
And again, you know, thisvaries depending on the
condition and the patient.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Probably huge variance.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Yeah, yeah, huge variance, right.
I mean their age, their youknow their functionality prior
to whatever they're having youknow.
A lot of things factor intothis.
I would say probably with me 10sessions or less is usually.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
I think I surprised a lot of people there, to be
honest with you.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
And honestly it probably does, because, again, a
lot of your quote unquotetraditional chiropractors will
see patients for, you know, 10times that amount.
So it's a very differentviewpoint as to how we can
actually practice.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
What are you thinking , Joe?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah, I'm thinking about what was well.
I'm thinking about this cheesystatement which got me thinking
about the Chinese proverb, orone of the proverb about you
know, if you want, thedifference between giving
somebody a fish and thenteaching them how to fish, kind
of thing.
I feel like that's veryimportant.
That's also the education partthat you mentioned.
(37:26):
That's also how we help clientat recovery collective as well.
You know we come in, which isalso what you like.
What I like about what you saidabout the willingness has to
come from the patient that doyou really want to get better?
You know, if that's the case,we'll give you tools, but long
term, you need to take ownershipfor your own health instead of
being dependent.
So that's also what I'm hearingfrom you about educating them,
(37:52):
giving them exercises.
You can come back when you need, but essentially, you're on the
track now.
You know you found a new pad oryou're back on track to get
better.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
That's a school?
Yeah, exactly, and I feel likeI want patients to know that I
am here for them.
Like you know, once we get youback on track and things are
going great and you've testedthings and you know you can
let's say, your goal is to run amarathon and you've run six of
them Great, that's awesome.
But I want you to know that ifsomething does come up in the
future, that I am the personthat you can come back to, that
(38:24):
you can trust, that you knowthat we can then move forward
again if we need to restart careor do something right, like I
want patients to have that levelof trust and comfort with me,
that they know that I will takecare of them and I'll guide them
through this process again, youknow.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
You know, speaking of trust and comfort, safety is
obviously paramount, in the formof health care.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
What are some contraindications or some red
flags where you would go?
Not right now.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Yeah, that's a great question, Luke, because I think,
unfortunately, the media hasdone somewhat of a disservice or
some damage to the chiropracticprofession when it talks about
some of these very rareinstances of serious
complications from chiropracticcare, probably most notably our
(39:17):
stroke.
Right, that's probably the mostcommon thing that folks are
afraid of and, like any medicalprocedure, I don't care if
you're going to your primarycare doctor and getting
prescribed a medication or ifyou're going to an acupuncturist
and getting needling done orseeing a chiropractor there is
inherent risk in anything.
(39:37):
So when you look at theresearch and the studies on
these risks for complicationsfrom chiropractors, they're
extremely, extremely low.
The most recent study that wasout there showed that patients
that are having, or are likelygoing to have, a stroke have as
(39:58):
much chance of having thatstroke sitting in their primary
care office as they do sittingwith me in my office as a
chiropractor, and that is mainlybecause the stroke is already
occurring.
Yeah, so a chiropractor.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
I'm trying to see how effecting the spine can be an
adverse effect for a stroke.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Help me out here, yeah so forceful manipulation to
the spine can impact thearteries that run through the
neck and into the skull.
So if there is a stroke that'soccurring sometimes due to
what's called an arterialdissection meaning the arterial
walls are separating you canhave that separation occur.
(40:38):
A blood clot will form.
You can have the adjustmentoccur from a chiropractor which
will sort of finish off thedissection of the artery and
that can then send the clotfurther into the brain.
Causing a stroke Makes sense.
But again, when you look atthat research, there's really no
difference between sitting inmy office or sitting in a
(40:59):
primary care office, becausemost often it's gonna happen
regardless.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
How could you pinpoint it to that?
Yeah, as being the cause?
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
And that's the problem is that how do we
actually label that as acausative event or factor?
And for the most part, youcan't.
For the most part you can't.
Now, these are things that Italk about with patients, right
Like there's again, there'sinherent risk in any medical
procedure.
I don't care what it is,there's risk in everything.
Infection with acupuncture it'sa risk Like super minimal, very
(41:32):
, very low, but it's a potentialright Like it could happen.
So there's conversations thatyou need to have with patients,
but I think when it comes to agood evaluation, for the most
part I won't adjust somebodyjust to adjust to them.
I will more often than not bevery cautious with my care,
(41:56):
versus the opposite in beingoverly aggressive with my care.
And there's certain screeningmethods we can use, right.
But for the most part we needto do a good physical evaluation
, take a good history and thenwe can make some determination
of whether or not I've sentpatients out for ultrasounds on
their carotid arteries to makesure they're they don't have
(42:17):
plaque building up, cause I'vecaught some of those where I'm
glad I did, because now they'reon medications at their primary
care doc and now we're managingthat together, but I'm a hundred
percent not adjusting theirneck, because I could take one
of those plaques and send itupward, and that's not what I
want to do, right?
So I do other things with them.
I do stretches, I teach themhow to do stretches, I do some
(42:38):
soft tissue work.
We can do other things.
We don't have to just again,that goes back to what we talked
about.
Right, chiropractors are notjust back crackers.
I can do a lot more than justthat.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Yeah, so sometimes doctors with pain or chronic
pain can get a little triggerhappy with X-rays and things
like that.
What is your philosophy ondoing X-rays?
Speaker 3 (43:05):
So my philosophy on X-rays is unless there is a red
flag, immediately, you know andred flags can be depending on
what you look at patients age,recent trauma, infection you
know, a past medical history ofcancer or some other like
conditions or diseases thatthey've been diagnosed with in
(43:27):
the past.
Right, there are situations Isend people off for x-rays
almost immediately.
For the most part I would say80% of the time, if not more.
For the most part I treatpatients for two weeks
conservatively before I considerimaging.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
So what would you?
That's pretty typical.
You've got some listeners goingwell, not my chiropractor.
What would you tell theconsumer that you know now
they'd be more open to seeing achiropractor that goes to
someone and says, all right,well, let's do x-rays.
What would be some goodquestions that you would
recommend that they?
Speaker 3 (44:02):
ask or yeah, from a patient standpoint, I would ask
the question of why?
How is this going to impact thetreatment plan that you're
going to provide for me?
That's what I would want toknow, because it's the same
conversation I have when I sendpatients out for x-rays.
If I send you out for an x-rayor an MRI or something, I'm
expecting to find something.
(44:24):
I'm not just going to x-ray you, to x-ray you to see
structurally what's happening.
I'm expecting to find somethingthat is going to change our
treatment plan, and that's not afun conversation to have, but
there's a reason and a necessityfor it.
Right, versus this, it's notused as a screening method, I
guess is the best way I can putthat right.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
I'm going to use a car analogy and I don't know
cars.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
Yeah, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
My wife's Prius is a very old Prius so we have to see
if it's worth it.
So when we took the car in andthey wanted to do x amount of
dollars and I said, okay, why?
Well, I know I don't know why.
So what are you trying to findout by doing this synopsis?
I know you don't know what it'sgoing to be, but I want to know
(45:14):
why you're thinking and whatcould you potentially find that
goes.
This is worth checking intoBecause if not for my car, I
don't want to spend thousands ofdollars and it's not worth that
.
It's an older Prius.
I think that can be with anytype of diagnoses when it comes
to x-rays, mris and especiallywith chronic pain and, we see,
with a lot of doctor's offices.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Yeah, absolutely, is that?
Speaker 1 (45:37):
a fair analogy.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Yeah, no, it is, it totally is.
Yeah, I mean, let's use cars,why not?
No, no, it's a fair analogy.
And again, I think that's wherelet's not use x-rays as a
screening tool, but rather as adiagnostic.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
That's a better way of saying it.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Yeah, if I need to find a diagnostic reason to do
x-rays, and let's do that.
But a lot of timeschiropractors will do x-rays as
a screening tool and it soundsbad.
They almost use it as a scaretactic as well.
They throw a film up andnowadays we don't have film.
Back when I graduated, weactually process things in dark
(46:14):
rooms, but now it's all digitalright.
So they throw films up and theyshow you oh my gosh, you have
this curvature that you'relacking in your neck and you
should really have thiscurvature.
Well, is that inaccurate?
No, but is that the cause ofyour problem?
Is that what's actuallycontributing to the situation
that you're coming in with?
And at the same time, again,nothing against imaging or
(46:36):
diagnosis with MRIs or CTEs orx-rays, but they are static
images of moving body parts, soit is a piece of the puzzle.
It is not everything.
So even when patients come intome with an MRI and they're like
well, clearly I have a lumbardisc herniation, you can see it
on the MRI.
That doesn't mean that's yourgenerator of pain.
(46:57):
We found something on an imagethat doesn't mean that's a pain
generator for you.
You could have pain coming fromelsewhere and you are just
locked into the fact that that'son the imaging report or
whatever.
So that's something I tellpatients like we need to be
cautious with.
I'm all for getting diagnosticsdone if we need to, but it's a
(47:18):
piece of the puzzle.
It's not everything.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
Yeah, I really value this conversation.
I'm a firm believer about thisconcept of inner knowing or
intuitive awareness in a way,like our body is always giving
us signals when something's notright, but then we also have a
tendency to either ignore it orget busy.
So there's something verypowerful about because I've
(47:42):
experienced it myself too thathow much I'm missing out on life
because of a pain.
But then our brain acclimates toit, which is sad because but
then, once that pain is relieved, you enjoy life so much.
So many doors open up.
It's also as a result of me notgiving attention to what my
body is signaling, and I canjust go as far as that, but if I
(48:03):
get too attached to adiagnostic, I'm not listening to
my body but I'm listening tothe image, where it's all about
knowing and listening to ourbody and then taking appropriate
action.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
Absolutely.
And I mean you bring up areally great point there too,
zoll is that there are somepatients that are really, really
good at listening to theirbodies and there are some
patients that have no clue whattheir bodies are telling them.
It's really funny, especiallyfrom my standpoint of I'll tell
a patient, like, okay, well,show me this exercise like a
(48:38):
bent over row or whatever.
And I see it and I'm like whatare you doing?
And then I'm like, okay, youneed to drop your shoulder, make
sure you're not doing this,tucking your up, whatever it is.
And then I tell them to dothose things, I demonstrate it
for them.
And then they do it again andit's the same.
And I'm like you have no cluewhat your body's doing in space.
Like you're such there's such adisconnect here between your
(48:59):
body and what you said.
Like that intuition you havewith your own body is a huge
component.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
And that's true with physical, that's true with
emotions, that's true Absolutely.
And tears, I mean, that'ssomething that holds true, yeah
absolutely Across alldisciplines.
Yeah, that's right.
Where would you likechiropractic care to fit in the
broader landscape of healthcare?
Where would you like it to be?
Speaker 3 (49:29):
That's such a loaded question we dive deep, I know.
No, it's good.
It's good, I think, one of thebiggest things for me.
Again, I would love to dispelthe myth or the connotation that
chiropractors just crackbacks.
I would love to have thechiropractic profession be a
(49:53):
respected profession versus whatI.
So I differentiatechiropractors a couple of
different ways, One of thembeing like if you just adjust
backs, in my opinion you're notreally a doctor, You're a
technician.
I can teach my wife to adjustsomebody's back right.
She will not, however, have thediagnostic skills and the
(50:13):
physician qualities that I have,which is when to adjust, when
not to adjust, how to adjust allthose red flags of diagnosis
and referring out and tweakingthings right.
She doesn't have any of that.
So there's a difference therein being a technician and just
being able to do a flying seven.
I could teach you to do thattomorrow.
It's not that big a deal, right?
Yeah, there's a whole otherclinical component to that.
(50:35):
I would love to see that ourprofession as a whole move
towards something beyond just abackcracker move towards a more
holistic minded but stillbringing that evidence component
into how we practice and beingable to fit in with all of the
(50:55):
other providers that are outthere too.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
You got me thinking.
It sounds like there can be.
I don't know how deep inphilosophy we're gonna go here
or what the science says.
Yeah, it sounds like your formof chiropractic care can be
proactive.
What does that look like?
How many people see you?
(51:20):
I don't have any pain, but Ithink that, whether it's spinal
alignment or maybe you can helpme out with this question Can
chiropractic be a proactive formof treatment?
Speaker 3 (51:34):
Absolutely yeah, and I have patients that see me that
are not in pain.
They go.
You know what I tend to.
Let's put it this way I don'thave low back pain episodes when
I see you regularly, when I'mproactively seeking you for care
.
I don't have my flare-ups thatare like 8 out of 10 on the pain
(51:54):
scale, debilitating low backpain or neck pain or headaches
or what have you.
I don't have those episodeswhen I am proactively doing
things about it, right.
So there's 100% yes, let's dosome proactive care there.
There's a huge component.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
What else do you think, Enzo?
I think Enzo is really enjoyingthis conversation.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
I'm also thinking about, you know, from the point
of view of mindfulness as well,about how much again that
intuitive awareness, you knowthat, the thing about anatomy,
and there are also some specificmeditation practices in our
tradition where you meditate onthe 32 parts of the body where
bones is involved, you know,muscles, tendons are involved
(52:37):
too where you just be presentwith those and it can be, it can
have very liberating effect,you know, because, again, like
we embody our bodies all ourlife, unfortunately sometimes
without knowing what's happening, you know, and then we die.
So it's a beautiful thing tobecome aware of it and then the
conversations open up.
You know, when we see apractitioner like you, that, oh,
(52:59):
this is the part where Ihaven't been paying attention to
now I'm paying attentionbecause of pain, you know, and
yeah, I don't know, there's justso much that is we take for
granted when we're not in painyou know, which is only what I
realize when I'm in pain,because it's a very complex and
sophisticated mechanism that weembody, which is beautiful, but
(53:21):
also a lot is being missed out.
Speaker 3 (53:24):
Yeah, and you talking about that.
It's all makes me think of howI love incorporating acupuncture
, because a lot of you know,like you talked about meditation
with bones and muscles andligaments and there's a huge
component to acupuncture whenyou look at all the different
meridians and master points andthings that acupuncturists do
(53:45):
that are focused on tendons andsinews, as they refer to them,
and you know low back pain andsciatica and all of these, all
of these components that theycan focus on.
So I may have to do somedigging in the meditation part
too, because I haven't reallygone into that realm myself with
patients, but that couldabsolutely be an added benefit.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Yeah, when you're talking about lab early in your
school year, it made me think of.
This is not really practicedthat much anymore, but in the
past, in the ancient time or inthe village, when there's a dead
body, they just send it to themonastery where they look at the
body and then meditate.
You know, which is kind ofscary, but that's also part of
the process, where you cut thebody and then meditate.
The meditation part is that tokind of value your body, that
(54:30):
you're alive, but also this iswhere you end up but also
becoming very specific aboutwhat's there and what's not
there, which is kind of scary.
I've never done it, but I'veheard about that.
That body is sent to the monksand they just look at it at the
contemplate.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
Oh my gosh.
Of course they spend some timedoing cadaver workshops.
Speaker 3 (54:47):
I was gonna say seeing some monks do some
dissection would be realinteresting.
I doubt they would do it in astainless steel, sterile
environment sort of thing,pretty cold.
Yeah, yeah, I mean there is.
You know, there's a hugecomponent there, I think too,
for, like you said, appreciatingthat you know you being alive
(55:08):
and that this person, you knowit, has now passed and being
able to learn from them, like,yeah, all of my patients, all my
students, I should say all mystudents that come into the
cadaver lab, you know I reallyfocus and impress upon them how
grateful they should be and howmuch respect they should have
for the individuals that weactually get to dissect and
(55:30):
learn from, because you know thesacrifice, if you will, of
donating their body to scienceto help the rest of us learn is
a huge sacrifice and we shouldhave a mental respect for that.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
To me, there's no more beautiful puzzle than the
human body.
It's amazing how it allconnects and works together in
some way.
Speaker 3 (55:50):
It really is.
And you know, for as much as wethink we know, we still don't
know a lot.
There's still a lot ofunexplored things and things
that we're like we think we knowthat mechanism, but we don't
know that mechanism.
There's still a lot out there.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
Thank you, Dr Corson, for sharing the things that you
do know with us today.
We really appreciate itAbsolutely.
This has been awesome.
Speaker 2 (56:14):
Yeah, thank you, you're going to join this
conversation.
Speaker 1 (56:16):
So much, yeah, and thank you for shedding light on
the world of chiropractic care.
Your insights into the benefits, debunking myths and
identifying potentiallimitations have been valuable.
As we continue our journeytowards collective health and
wellness, it's essential toexplore various health care
options.
Listeners, we hope you foundthis episode enlightening and
informative and rememberunderstanding and exploring
(56:39):
different modalities in healthcare empower us to make informed
decisions about our well-being.
As always, we encourage you toconnect with us on all the
social media platforms.
And, dr Corson, where can theyfind you?
What's a good?
Speaker 3 (56:53):
I can put it on the episode notes but I was going to
say we can put some things inthe episode notes too.
But yeah, you can find me onInstagram.
Eric Corson erikorzen, is thathow you spell that?
You can find me there.
Feel free to Google me too.
I'm sure you'll find some veryold pictures of me from my
chiropractic school.
But yeah, feel free to Googleme.
(57:16):
And yeah, let's put some thingsin the in the video notes so
that they can connect with me.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
For your practice as well, and he's in the General
Rental County area as well.
So yeah well.
Thank you everyone and for Seeyou next time for another
exciting topic.
My name's Luke and this is Zah.
Thanks for listening.
See you next time, Thanks.
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