January 22, 2024 • 31 mins
Have you ever found yourself judging someone with addiction or mental illness before ever knowing their story? We've been there too, and it's time to unravel the complex knot of social stigma that too often exacerbates the struggle for those in recovery. Join us as we move beyond the superficial narratives, delving into the heart of why mental health and addiction deserves as much care and empathy as any other struggle. Our conversation is enriched by Buddhist teachings that advocate for self-compassion and understanding, offering a fresh perspective on an age-old issue.
As hosts, we're not shy about confronting the embarrassing whispers and the weight of others expectations that can make the road to recovery that much harder. We engage thoughtfully with the stigmatization of medication-assisted treatment and the importance of treating the brain like any other organ in need of healing. The episode is peppered with inspiring tales, showcasing that sobriety and mental health are not taboos but triumphs of the human spirit. So tune in, and let’s build a bridge of empathy, one story at a time, as we support each other on the journey toward wellness.
Visit our website!
Creating a Sustainable Recovery Plan: Mindfulness and the Power of Community — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Zaw Maw — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Luke DeBoy — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Please send your questions to luke@recoverycollectivemd.com
Thanks for listening, and please subscribe/comment/review/follow/like; if you think others would benefit from the podcast episode, share with others, as COLLECTIVELY, we can find solutions to all things health and wellness.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to A Therapist of Buddhists in you,
the podcast presented by theRecovery Collective in the heart
of Annapolis, maryland.
We are your hosts, luke andZall, and today we're delving
into the stigma surroundingaddiction and recovery.
In the ancient world, stigmawas a visible mark, a brand
etched upon individuals, but inthe 21st century, within the
realm of mental health andaddiction, this transformed into
(00:22):
a complex web of societaljudgments.
We're here to pave the way fora more compassionate,
understanding form of recovery.
Imagine this is a journeyguided by Zall and I in the
alliance of perspectives, aimingto redefine the narrative.
We believe in the power ofthese conversations and we're
thrilled to have you with us aswe navigate through the stories
of resilience and renewal.
(00:42):
We invite you to be a part ofthis transformative dialogue.
This is not just a podcast.
It's a collective journeytowards understanding, healing
and breaking the chains thathave held back the stories of
recovery for far too long.
So grab a seat, open yourhearts and let's embark on this
unique exploration together.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Hey Zall, hey Luke, how's it going?
Good to be on the recordingagain.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yeah, it's good to be back and doing another episode
and another important topic,don't you think?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Definitely yeah.
Where do you want to beginabout addiction, I guess?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I want to go with.
What causes stigma of addiction?
Why do you think addiction is athing?
I'll first say this a largebody of research indicates that
stigma is a persistent,pervasive enrooted in a belief
that addiction is a personalchoice, reflecting, I guess, a
(01:40):
lack of willpower or a moralfailing.
What's your interpretation ofthat belief?
Some people have that it's achoice and a moral failing.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, I guess that comes from.
Just like a standard societywith what's considered good and
bad I think it comes from there.
At least from my experience inmy culture definitely was
treated that way because thereis that morality doing what is
(02:14):
right and what is wrong.
And then, along with addictiontoo I think it's true all across
culture it does have some crimeand things like that, so people
start associating addictionwith these things that are not
looking very good.
(02:34):
Maybe that originates fromthere.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
So, knowing what you know now, what do you think
about?
I guess, growing up in asociety that sees it as a moral
failing?
How have your thoughts changed?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, I feel more compassion towards others and
also for myself my youngerversion of myself because
addiction really is a way oftreatment to a deeper problem.
So it's not like an intentionalchoice, but something that we
deal with, except that we foundunhealthy way to deal with that.
(03:13):
So in that way I feel morecompassionate towards people who
suffer from it, and also myyounger version of myself too.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Which is kind of interesting because you grew up
in a very Buddhist upbringingand culture that sees addiction
as a moral failing, but thenagain Buddhism really looks at
the importance ofself-compassion.
It's interesting, isn't it?
Yeah?
(03:44):
But then again, I think there'splenty of stigma, obviously
here.
When it comes to mental healthand addiction, I think stigma is
simply just a lack ofunderstanding, or it's either an
misunderstanding or it'sfear-based.
I think often stigma is basedon people's fear.
(04:08):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, that's true.
I think the definition thatI've read somewhere it's some
kind of unfair or negativebelief about a particular thing.
So it's definitely an unexaminedlack of understanding or
pre-assumption, that it is thisway.
There's a gut reaction to that,especially people who have
(04:30):
children.
There's a sense of protectionthat oh yeah, I don't want my
child to be like that.
But then it even feeds theaddiction more, because that's
the worst feeling for an addictto have to feel outcasted, to
feel like I don't belong, and iteven pays deeper path towards
(04:50):
addiction.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So I think in some ways, stigma can actually well
yeah, it continues to fuel theproblem.
Or, for addiction, can reallyand mental health concerns or
illnesses really make it worse.
Right, we can cut out anypauses, so it's okay.
So there's this good old Miriamand Webster.
(05:16):
The dictionary and the Miriamand Webster definition is a set
of negative and unfair beliefsthat a society or group of
people have about something.
So a stigma is negative andunfair.
Yeah, it sounds right.
That sounds like what a stigmais.
(05:38):
So it's the opposite ofcompassion.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, lack of empathy and lack of relatability and
also, yeah, unexaminedassumption, because those are
all that comes to mind as we'retalking about thinking about
stigma, negative, unfair beliefand some kind of conditioning
too?
I guess that's a Buddhistconcept of that.
(06:06):
There has been some kind ofconditioning, either societies
before or from young age.
There's things that is made up,molded to a particular way,
that we don't question.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Why do you think it's often a go-to for people when
it comes to mental health ormental illnesses and addiction?
Why is stigma often a go-to?
Not just like the exception ina small minority does it, but a
large portion of any populationespecially.
(06:41):
It's been happening forcenturies.
When it comes to substance useand abuse and mental illnesses,
that stigma is often the firstgo-to for so many.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, I think about human mind from a Buddhist
perspective in terms of thehuman conditioning can be
simplified, as I always look forsomething that is pleasant,
pleasurable, you know, ease, andI don't like pain,
uncomfortable, yeah.
So stigma is like that too,that when I see somebody who's
(07:19):
struggling with addiction ormental health, like, oh, I don't
want that, you know there's arepulsion instead of oh, what's
going on with that person?
I want to know.
You know, that's not ourimmediate reaction, that I want
to understand.
You tell me what's going on,you know.
But it's more like, oh, I don'tlike what I'm seeing, let me, I
don't want to be like thatperson.
You know, I don't want mychildren to be like that person.
(07:40):
That really is like theimmediate reaction to addiction.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, I guess, especially with addiction, that
it's often a significant eitherperceived or reality of, yes,
challenge, yes, vulnerability,and people often take that as a
sign of weakness.
And if it's a sign of weakness,well then you know, I should be
(08:11):
able to not abuse drugs oralcohol or crack or cocaine, or
I shouldn't be depressed, Ishould be able to, you know, do
this myself.
And if there's that level ofvulnerability to perceived as
(08:33):
weakness, then, yeah, that'sleads to their own stigma.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, there are just so many things that happen to us
while we were young.
It doesn't have to be traumatic, but like there are just so
many things that happen andwe're just absorbing, right.
So in that way, especially ifaddiction becomes like a
self-medication or a way totreat what was suffer younger,
(09:04):
it's not our fault, anyone, youknow, because I didn't know any
better, we didn't know anybetter.
So that that comes to mind toowhen it comes to this.
Person did not wake up one dayand I know I'm gonna be an
addict.
You know that's my mission.
Yeah, but it's more like okay,because we only realized that
(09:25):
after it was too late.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, I want to touch on stigma in three categories.
We've got stigma towardstreatment the family and the
stigma that they have with theirloved one that has a mental
health issue or addiction issue.
And stigma towards medicationsTreatment family stigma and
(09:52):
medications Treatment.
Let's start there.
I mean, who wants to go totreatment for 24 hours, let
alone 30?
Right, I mean.
I mean that's a pun intended,that's a hard pill to swallow.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I'm not that bad, right, I don't need treatment.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, we're seeing how stigma is compounded.
It's showing us just gosh, isit really this bad?
And we say that even that canbe a stigma.
I'm not this bad.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
It's in a way of like avoiding responsibility, like
unplugging, going away, I don'tknow.
There's just so many effects orassumptions surrounding that
that, oh, can you not do it byyourself?
Do you?
Are you that bad?
Yeah, do you really need to go,you know?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So what about stigma with family?
You had quite a journey fromrecovery and you're the son of
two parents in the medical field, so I imagine that they had
some.
I mean, every family goes man.
(11:15):
What's my part in this?
That's some capacity.
Did you ever talk to yourparents about that aspect, maybe
the stigma of their son?
Who correct me if I'm wrong?
You know they take a lot ofpride in getting a higher
(11:35):
education overseas and take usthrough that journey from your
perspective.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, the good news is they were very happy now, you
know.
So that's a good part, but theydefinitely had to go through a
lot.
But I guess it's first of allit's just very embarrassing.
That's also part of the stigmatoo, that I don't know if it's
true for all family, but whenthere is a family, there is that
family image.
(12:02):
And like you were saying too ifsomething's wrong, you're like
oh, what did I do wrong Racingthis child?
And then it also becomes a viewthat is an expression of how I
race this child.
So if he's an addict, maybeit's something that I did wrong,
so let it just like fix thisproblem on our own without
letting anybody know.
It even creates more of likehiding the problem, not asking
(12:25):
for help.
But for my parents it was evenworse because, yeah, they
thought it was a moral issue andalso mingling with the wrong
crowd, things like that.
So no concept of like addiction, disease of addiction.
So that was even harder forthem and harder for me.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, I think whenever there's a struggle,
moral issue or not, or just amess up I mean internally I'll
speak for myself it can be acertain degree of embarrassing
and then throw one to your pointhanging out with the wrong
crowd.
Or, you know, for me, myparents getting a call at 3 am
from a police officer thinkingthat I'm dead Like who can they
(13:09):
relate to that experience?
You know that's not somethingthat they can go.
Hey, so I felt my child wasdead at 3 am, but no, apparently
he has a felony charge.
You know it's embarrassing.
So the family stigma, you know,can feel really isolated and
often for family members, oftena core characteristic or a
(13:34):
belief system for families is tohelp one another and a lot of
times families do a really goodjob to support each other so
they don't have to feel the fullpain of whatever's going on in
their life.
That's the benefit of a family,whatever your definition of a
(13:55):
family is.
And when families don't feellike they can help their loved
one, well, that can lead to,like you're saying, isolation,
embarrassment, immoral, failing.
What did I do wrong?
Yeah, that's tough.
Yeah, when we feel like wecan't help our loved one because
(14:15):
of their mental health concernor substance use.
It's tough.
We had last year a gentlemantalking about his son died by
suicide and he lost a lot offriends.
Instead of supporting them,they turn their back on them.
Even friends of family membersgo gosh.
(14:39):
What do they do wrong?
That's out there.
It can be very isolating.
Stigma is real.
Stigma is real.
What about medication?
All kinds of stigma.
How do we counteract stigmawith medication?
We can certainly talk aboutsome of the frustrations with
(15:02):
medications in our society.
I totally understand thataspect.
There's plenty of episodeswhere we talk about that.
How do we minimize the stigmawhen it comes to medication?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I've experienced it in my own experience too,
thinking about medication as acrutch.
I know there is that aspectwhere people abusing or
overusing things like that theremight be assumption or some
kind of a preconceived notionabout that.
(15:36):
My take on that is that afterI've identified the problem or
the disease, there's amedication for that Problem.
Medication problem reduce ormaintain or fixed.
In that way.
It's pretty straightforward.
(15:57):
There definitely is stigmatowards that.
Again similar to what we talkedabout earlier the weakness.
Why can you not use your ownmind, use your own full power
instead of relying on themedication?
That's a sign of weakness.
It's a sign of why do you needto rely on that?
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I want to empower that statement.
Medication like a crutch.
When do we use crutches?
Speaker 2 (16:26):
When legs, hands broken.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
When bones are broken .
We use crutches when we need it.
Then we use it to assist us toget range of motion and
ambulatory, so that way we don'thurt or damage more.
I'm okay with medication beinga crutch.
I don't see too many peoplewalk around crutches when they
don't need it.
(16:49):
Let's empower that statement.
It's funny that that's the linethat we all use when it comes
to medication, when people abuseit.
I don't see people abusingcrutches too often, right.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, I like how you're pointing that out,
because there's also that ideaof all or nothing or dependency
Medication.
They are lifelong things butthere are also medications where
you need, especially if you'rereporting honestly to people
who's giving you care.
There's always that workingtogether that, okay, you
(17:33):
probably need this medicationfor this time and we can
increase this, reduce it.
Based on that communication,based on things are.
It reminds me of that point too, about the crutch when my bones
are here, I can walk, but thereis a period where I need to
rely on the crutch for thehealing.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Absolutely.
Medication can be used in thatway For some people medications
for mental health or forreducing cravings, or medical
assisted treatment.
That can be life-saving Notjust a crutch for support, but
(18:12):
completely life-saving.
The brain is like any otherorgan.
We don't seem to have thatstigma when it's with high blood
pressure in the heart or we'renot producing insulin or
whatever else.
It might be For some reason,when we talk about the organ of
(18:33):
the brain, it's like this wholeother stigma.
The brain is like any otherorgan in the body.
Now, I'm a big advocate and youknow I'm a big believer in doing
all the other parts you can, sothat way all parts of the self
physically, mentally,emotionally, spiritually and
socially can help each other out.
(18:57):
We are the most magnificentpuzzle on this earth and the
emotional, physical andspiritual can help the chemical
potentially imbalance.
But yeah, the brain is an organand to think it's always
working 100%, it ain't.
And mine isn't right nowbecause my family has the flu
(19:17):
and I'm foggy, so and I knowthat and I'm okay with that.
So yeah, it's.
That's a big piece.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Good.
Yeah, I'm not sure if we'reready for the good news part yet
, but everything that you'resaying really, you know,
encourages the room about, theroom for either changing that
stigma or educating, educatingthe society for better
(19:49):
understanding.
But from what I'm thinkingright now is that, especially,
it is undeniably true thataddiction is affecting people.
So I think the power is more inempowering recovery.
You know, like, if we see thatI mean, that's been my
experience too that the more Isee people who are in recovery
(20:13):
and doing positive things, youknow so I'm focusing more on the
positive instead of how do Ierase the negative.
You know so the more we focuson the positive.
It just spreads, and negativitykind of reduces its power.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Stigma often thrives in silence and shame can silence
individuals further.
So I love the empowerment.
You know you brought up theself compassion and the Buddhist
perspectives and how embracingour own imperfections and
struggles can be atransformative step in breaking
down the walls of our owninternalized stigma and the
(20:50):
power of vulnerability.
Sharing personal stories can behugely empowering but it also
requires vulnerability.
So when we show that side wemay worry that we're going to
get hurt.
But boy, being open about ourstruggles and challenge the
stigma, we begin to break thoseold patterns and we begin to
(21:14):
change the stigma.
And there's a strength to that.
I'll give you an example.
There's a reason why cigarettesaren't smoked everywhere
anymore.
Used to happen all the timeeverywhere, everywhere.
People were smoking cigarettesin the airport, you know, in the
restaurant in your house, Ican't imagine.
(21:36):
In like the I guess the 60s itwas like every wall yellow from
cigarettes and now it's almostlike a stigma to smoke.
Osha standards, occupationalSafety and Health Administration
.
In 1970, there was a departmentof labor and they said for the
(21:57):
labor union, no, we have tofollow safety protocols.
And before there'd be someonefrom OSHA that says, nope, you
got to wear this helmet andthese old school guys would be
like F, you get out of here, orthey wouldn't tie up and their
harnesses right.
But now you wouldn't evenconsider that If people saw you
not wearing a helmet or tie upright on a job site, they'd look
(22:22):
at you and go what the heck areyou doing Like?
The stigma isn't to look bigand bad.
The stigma is why aren't youcaring about your safety and
your health?
So now being able to do thisfor our own well-being, our own
health, our mental health, oursubstance use journey is, to
(22:44):
your point, touch upon that alittle bit more.
The empowering part.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Yeah, that's.
You know, it's all aboutenjoying life and finding
happiness.
So I don't know recoverycommunity, it's just the best
part for that.
First of all, you don't feelalone and second of all, you
feel hopeful that it is possible, you know, to accept that we do
(23:14):
have this problem.
There's a disease of addiction,but like I don't have to die as
an addict you know I can die asa sober alcoholic or sober
addict or so that's veryempowering.
But also like it goes back towhat we were kind of bringing
that up to about.
Like addiction was like atreatment for something that
(23:38):
needed to be addressed beforethat.
So like, if I'm addressing thatand enjoying life, there's less
temptation.
And I think it's even true forpeople who are, who haven't
found addiction as a disease yet, you know.
But if they start enjoying lifeand I think about my children
(23:59):
that way too that if I can do mybest to provide positive
enjoyment, they do, and thenaddiction is not as appealing.
You know, if I'm enjoying lifebecause it really is a treatment
and escape or checking out, youknow it does have that effect.
That's why we did it, that'swhy I did it.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It's getting to that point.
And when we're not at the pointbeing okay, that we're not okay
, if things aren't where we wantthem to be, how do we reach out
for help?
And that'd be okay.
And I think that takeseducation and awareness, and it
(24:46):
takes campaigns, and it takesrealization of how mental
illness and chemical imbalanceswork and how addiction works on
the brain.
And even though we feel thatone day, and all of a sudden we
get surprised, you know, 24hours later, the next week, and
we hit this low bottom like man,how did I get here again?
And getting help with that?
(25:07):
And I think part of culture ispromoting positive role models.
I mean, I think, gosh, it'slike in the state of Maryland we
have Michael Phelps and he'sbeen very vocal about his
journey with some chemical useand certainly his mental health
and he's an advocate for seekingtherapy and treatment.
(25:31):
And his sister is wonderful andshe's in recovery and she's
doing life coaching and recoverycoaching and I just think about
people in you know, m&m, theDetroit Lions are in the
playoffs and he's an advocatefor recovery and my god, now
we're going for best picturesand stuff like that and Bradley
(25:53):
Cooper and musicians likeMacklemore, and there are all
these people that are.
They begin to be cool, to be tocare about your mental health
and sobriety.
I think it's beginning to do aparadigm shift.
What do you think it'sinspiring?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, yeah, it's very neat, yeah you touched on this
a little bit too earlier aboutthe connection between stigma
and silence.
You know I spend more on thattoo, because that's a power that
I've seen in my own recoveryjourney and also in recovery
community.
There is a sense of trust.
(26:27):
You know, I think trust openscommunication.
Trust open the courage to askfor help, but silence has to do
with judgment.
You know fear.
So like that's also what I feelgood about these great examples
and recovery community, or youknow, where people have those
(26:49):
stories and it invites peoplewho are struggling that you're
not alone but also that you canopen up and trust and ask for
help, because it can be a verylonely world where I think I'm
the only one dealing with thisand there's no one else.
It can be very frightening.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
It's one of my.
There's plenty of things that Ilove doing about being a
therapist, but that kind oftransition, seeing clients go
from what do I tell my friends,my coworkers, my loved ones, my
boss, and going from I'm notgoing to shout out on top of the
(27:31):
rooftop I don't know what Iever asked you to to them
getting more and morecomfortable with their own
stigma and minimizing their ownshame and their own fear and
being more comfortable in justbeing a person that doesn't use
anymore, or a person that hasdepression, anxiety or bipolar
(27:54):
or whatever it is, and they'retreating it and then seeing that
shift of fear, unknown doubt,uncertainty.
How do they address people to?
They just get comfortable andit's their own stigma, not the
other people's stigma, that theystruggle with, and their own
fears and the silence and theshame.
And that's a big thing we do,as you know, you as a life coach
(28:17):
, recovery coach and me as atherapist.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yeah, and I think like it even extends beyond
people in recovery.
There are just so manyprinciples in recovery or tools
that people who struggle withaddiction use that go across the
board.
I think it even is inspiring tonon addict you know, non
alcoholic because there's asense of, yeah, not giving up,
(28:44):
but also that courage to ask forhelp and then, yeah, almost
like embracing and making thebest out of the worst, and
there's something very humanlyinspiring about that that goes
beyond people outside ofaddiction as well.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Absolutely.
Yeah, well said, we'rebeginning to challenge
stereotypes.
Huh, Doesn't get this wayovernight, doesn't change
overnight.
Huh, Any other thoughts?
As we wrap up this conversationand it's something that I think
you know we talk about,whatever things we often say in
the beginning of our intro ofevery episode, we often say a
(29:27):
collective solution to healthand wellness.
Part of health and wellness isallowing yourself to get
healthier and get healthier, getwell, you know, and that's
takes vulnerability, it takescourage and it takes
conversations to humanize this,doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yes, as you mentioned , stereotypes to.
I guess the final message thatcomes to mind for me is about
you know, I'm all aboutconnections, these things you
know, because, especially, Ifeel I missed out a lot on the
connection deep in my addictionand also in my fearful days.
So that's, I want to promotethat and I want to encourage
(30:13):
people to do that, especially inthis day of like social media
and internet and things likethat.
Like the world is not as itseems, there's so many things
that are hidden and I don't knowwhat it is until I interact.
So like a person out there issomewhere would seem like he's
me, but he's actually a verynice person, but I won't find
(30:35):
out until I communicate.
So I really want to spread thatmessage of interacting with
each other, because we neverknow, the appearance doesn't
always reflect the internal roleof people.
So for me, that's been the bestmystery and also a curiosity.
When I wake up, I just want totalk to people to really see
(30:56):
their internal role and fulfillmy role too.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Well said, Well said.
Let's close on that, shall we,Okay?
In conclusion, let's carryforward the wisdom gained from
today's exploration, Acknowledgethe power of your story and
brace vulnerability andcultivate empathy.
These are the building blocksof a society free from the
chains of stigma.
Remember recovery is a journeyand every step forward is a
(31:25):
triumph.
Let's continue this dialogue,challenge perceptions and build
a world where everyone's journeyis met with compassion and
understanding.
Thank you for being a part of atherapist's abuse in you.
Until next time, stay resilient, stay compassionate and
remember your story is powerfulcatalysts for your change.
Please like, comment, subscribeand share with others, as
(31:47):
collectively we can do a lottogether.
My name is Luke and this is Zau.
See you next time.
Welcome to A Therapist of Buddhists in you,
the podcast presented by theRecovery Collective in the heart
of Annapolis, maryland.
We are your hosts, luke andZall, and today we're delving
into the stigma surroundingaddiction and recovery.
In the ancient world, stigmawas a visible mark, a brand
etched upon individuals, but inthe 21st century, within the
realm of mental health andaddiction, this transformed into
(00:22):
a complex web of societaljudgments.
We're here to pave the way fora more compassionate,
understanding form of recovery.
Imagine this is a journeyguided by Zall and I in the
alliance of perspectives, aimingto redefine the narrative.
We believe in the power ofthese conversations and we're
thrilled to have you with us aswe navigate through the stories
of resilience and renewal.
(00:42):
We invite you to be a part ofthis transformative dialogue.
This is not just a podcast.
It's a collective journeytowards understanding, healing
and breaking the chains thathave held back the stories of
recovery for far too long.
So grab a seat, open yourhearts and let's embark on this
unique exploration together.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Hey Zall, hey Luke, how's it going?
Good to be on the recordingagain.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yeah, it's good to be back and doing another episode
and another important topic,don't you think?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Definitely yeah.
Where do you want to beginabout addiction, I guess?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I want to go with.
What causes stigma of addiction?
Why do you think addiction is athing?
I'll first say this a largebody of research indicates that
stigma is a persistent,pervasive enrooted in a belief
that addiction is a personalchoice, reflecting, I guess, a
(01:40):
lack of willpower or a moralfailing.
What's your interpretation ofthat belief?
Some people have that it's achoice and a moral failing.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, I guess that comes from.
Just like a standard societywith what's considered good and
bad I think it comes from there.
At least from my experience inmy culture definitely was
treated that way because thereis that morality doing what is
(02:14):
right and what is wrong.
And then, along with addictiontoo I think it's true all across
culture it does have some crimeand things like that, so people
start associating addictionwith these things that are not
looking very good.
(02:34):
Maybe that originates fromthere.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
So, knowing what you know now, what do you think
about?
I guess, growing up in asociety that sees it as a moral
failing?
How have your thoughts changed?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, I feel more compassion towards others and
also for myself my youngerversion of myself because
addiction really is a way oftreatment to a deeper problem.
So it's not like an intentionalchoice, but something that we
deal with, except that we foundunhealthy way to deal with that.
(03:13):
So in that way I feel morecompassionate towards people who
suffer from it, and also myyounger version of myself too.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Which is kind of interesting because you grew up
in a very Buddhist upbringingand culture that sees addiction
as a moral failing, but thenagain Buddhism really looks at
the importance ofself-compassion.
It's interesting, isn't it?
Yeah?
(03:44):
But then again, I think there'splenty of stigma, obviously
here.
When it comes to mental healthand addiction, I think stigma is
simply just a lack ofunderstanding, or it's either an
misunderstanding or it'sfear-based.
I think often stigma is basedon people's fear.
(04:08):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, that's true.
I think the definition thatI've read somewhere it's some
kind of unfair or negativebelief about a particular thing.
So it's definitely an unexaminedlack of understanding or
pre-assumption, that it is thisway.
There's a gut reaction to that,especially people who have
(04:30):
children.
There's a sense of protectionthat oh yeah, I don't want my
child to be like that.
But then it even feeds theaddiction more, because that's
the worst feeling for an addictto have to feel outcasted, to
feel like I don't belong, and iteven pays deeper path towards
(04:50):
addiction.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So I think in some ways, stigma can actually well
yeah, it continues to fuel theproblem.
Or, for addiction, can reallyand mental health concerns or
illnesses really make it worse.
Right, we can cut out anypauses, so it's okay.
So there's this good old Miriamand Webster.
(05:16):
The dictionary and the Miriamand Webster definition is a set
of negative and unfair beliefsthat a society or group of
people have about something.
So a stigma is negative andunfair.
Yeah, it sounds right.
That sounds like what a stigmais.
(05:38):
So it's the opposite ofcompassion.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, lack of empathy and lack of relatability and
also, yeah, unexaminedassumption, because those are
all that comes to mind as we'retalking about thinking about
stigma, negative, unfair beliefand some kind of conditioning
too?
I guess that's a Buddhistconcept of that.
(06:06):
There has been some kind ofconditioning, either societies
before or from young age.
There's things that is made up,molded to a particular way,
that we don't question.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Why do you think it's often a go-to for people when
it comes to mental health ormental illnesses and addiction?
Why is stigma often a go-to?
Not just like the exception ina small minority does it, but a
large portion of any populationespecially.
(06:41):
It's been happening forcenturies.
When it comes to substance useand abuse and mental illnesses,
that stigma is often the firstgo-to for so many.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, I think about human mind from a Buddhist
perspective in terms of thehuman conditioning can be
simplified, as I always look forsomething that is pleasant,
pleasurable, you know, ease, andI don't like pain,
uncomfortable, yeah.
So stigma is like that too,that when I see somebody who's
(07:19):
struggling with addiction ormental health, like, oh, I don't
want that, you know there's arepulsion instead of oh, what's
going on with that person?
I want to know.
You know, that's not ourimmediate reaction, that I want
to understand.
You tell me what's going on,you know.
But it's more like, oh, I don'tlike what I'm seeing, let me, I
don't want to be like thatperson.
You know, I don't want mychildren to be like that person.
(07:40):
That really is like theimmediate reaction to addiction.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, I guess, especially with addiction, that
it's often a significant eitherperceived or reality of, yes,
challenge, yes, vulnerability,and people often take that as a
sign of weakness.
And if it's a sign of weakness,well then you know, I should be
(08:11):
able to not abuse drugs oralcohol or crack or cocaine, or
I shouldn't be depressed, Ishould be able to, you know, do
this myself.
And if there's that level ofvulnerability to perceived as
(08:33):
weakness, then, yeah, that'sleads to their own stigma.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, there are just so many things that happen to us
while we were young.
It doesn't have to be traumatic, but like there are just so
many things that happen andwe're just absorbing, right.
So in that way, especially ifaddiction becomes like a
self-medication or a way totreat what was suffer younger,
(09:04):
it's not our fault, anyone, youknow, because I didn't know any
better, we didn't know anybetter.
So that that comes to mind toowhen it comes to this.
Person did not wake up one dayand I know I'm gonna be an
addict.
You know that's my mission.
Yeah, but it's more like okay,because we only realized that
(09:25):
after it was too late.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, I want to touch on stigma in three categories.
We've got stigma towardstreatment the family and the
stigma that they have with theirloved one that has a mental
health issue or addiction issue.
And stigma towards medicationsTreatment family stigma and
(09:52):
medications Treatment.
Let's start there.
I mean, who wants to go totreatment for 24 hours, let
alone 30?
Right, I mean.
I mean that's a pun intended,that's a hard pill to swallow.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I'm not that bad, right, I don't need treatment.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, we're seeing how stigma is compounded.
It's showing us just gosh, isit really this bad?
And we say that even that canbe a stigma.
I'm not this bad.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
It's in a way of like avoiding responsibility, like
unplugging, going away, I don'tknow.
There's just so many effects orassumptions surrounding that
that, oh, can you not do it byyourself?
Do you?
Are you that bad?
Yeah, do you really need to go,you know?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So what about stigma with family?
You had quite a journey fromrecovery and you're the son of
two parents in the medical field, so I imagine that they had
some.
I mean, every family goes man.
(11:15):
What's my part in this?
That's some capacity.
Did you ever talk to yourparents about that aspect, maybe
the stigma of their son?
Who correct me if I'm wrong?
You know they take a lot ofpride in getting a higher
(11:35):
education overseas and take usthrough that journey from your
perspective.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, the good news is they were very happy now, you
know.
So that's a good part, but theydefinitely had to go through a
lot.
But I guess it's first of allit's just very embarrassing.
That's also part of the stigmatoo, that I don't know if it's
true for all family, but whenthere is a family, there is that
family image.
(12:02):
And like you were saying too ifsomething's wrong, you're like
oh, what did I do wrong Racingthis child?
And then it also becomes a viewthat is an expression of how I
race this child.
So if he's an addict, maybeit's something that I did wrong,
so let it just like fix thisproblem on our own without
letting anybody know.
It even creates more of likehiding the problem, not asking
(12:25):
for help.
But for my parents it was evenworse because, yeah, they
thought it was a moral issue andalso mingling with the wrong
crowd, things like that.
So no concept of like addiction, disease of addiction.
So that was even harder forthem and harder for me.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, I think whenever there's a struggle,
moral issue or not, or just amess up I mean internally I'll
speak for myself it can be acertain degree of embarrassing
and then throw one to your pointhanging out with the wrong
crowd.
Or, you know, for me, myparents getting a call at 3 am
from a police officer thinkingthat I'm dead Like who can they
(13:09):
relate to that experience?
You know that's not somethingthat they can go.
Hey, so I felt my child wasdead at 3 am, but no, apparently
he has a felony charge.
You know it's embarrassing.
So the family stigma, you know,can feel really isolated and
often for family members, oftena core characteristic or a
(13:34):
belief system for families is tohelp one another and a lot of
times families do a really goodjob to support each other so
they don't have to feel the fullpain of whatever's going on in
their life.
That's the benefit of a family,whatever your definition of a
(13:55):
family is.
And when families don't feellike they can help their loved
one, well, that can lead to,like you're saying, isolation,
embarrassment, immoral, failing.
What did I do wrong?
Yeah, that's tough.
Yeah, when we feel like wecan't help our loved one because
(14:15):
of their mental health concernor substance use.
It's tough.
We had last year a gentlemantalking about his son died by
suicide and he lost a lot offriends.
Instead of supporting them,they turn their back on them.
Even friends of family membersgo gosh.
(14:39):
What do they do wrong?
That's out there.
It can be very isolating.
Stigma is real.
Stigma is real.
What about medication?
All kinds of stigma.
How do we counteract stigmawith medication?
We can certainly talk aboutsome of the frustrations with
(15:02):
medications in our society.
I totally understand thataspect.
There's plenty of episodeswhere we talk about that.
How do we minimize the stigmawhen it comes to medication?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I've experienced it in my own experience too,
thinking about medication as acrutch.
I know there is that aspectwhere people abusing or
overusing things like that theremight be assumption or some
kind of a preconceived notionabout that.
(15:36):
My take on that is that afterI've identified the problem or
the disease, there's amedication for that Problem.
Medication problem reduce ormaintain or fixed.
In that way.
It's pretty straightforward.
(15:57):
There definitely is stigmatowards that.
Again similar to what we talkedabout earlier the weakness.
Why can you not use your ownmind, use your own full power
instead of relying on themedication?
That's a sign of weakness.
It's a sign of why do you needto rely on that?
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I want to empower that statement.
Medication like a crutch.
When do we use crutches?
Speaker 2 (16:26):
When legs, hands broken.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
When bones are broken .
We use crutches when we need it.
Then we use it to assist us toget range of motion and
ambulatory, so that way we don'thurt or damage more.
I'm okay with medication beinga crutch.
I don't see too many peoplewalk around crutches when they
don't need it.
(16:49):
Let's empower that statement.
It's funny that that's the linethat we all use when it comes
to medication, when people abuseit.
I don't see people abusingcrutches too often, right.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, I like how you're pointing that out,
because there's also that ideaof all or nothing or dependency
Medication.
They are lifelong things butthere are also medications where
you need, especially if you'rereporting honestly to people
who's giving you care.
There's always that workingtogether that, okay, you
(17:33):
probably need this medicationfor this time and we can
increase this, reduce it.
Based on that communication,based on things are.
It reminds me of that point too, about the crutch when my bones
are here, I can walk, but thereis a period where I need to
rely on the crutch for thehealing.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Absolutely.
Medication can be used in thatway For some people medications
for mental health or forreducing cravings, or medical
assisted treatment.
That can be life-saving Notjust a crutch for support, but
(18:12):
completely life-saving.
The brain is like any otherorgan.
We don't seem to have thatstigma when it's with high blood
pressure in the heart or we'renot producing insulin or
whatever else.
It might be For some reason,when we talk about the organ of
(18:33):
the brain, it's like this wholeother stigma.
The brain is like any otherorgan in the body.
Now, I'm a big advocate and youknow I'm a big believer in doing
all the other parts you can, sothat way all parts of the self
physically, mentally,emotionally, spiritually and
socially can help each other out.
(18:57):
We are the most magnificentpuzzle on this earth and the
emotional, physical andspiritual can help the chemical
potentially imbalance.
But yeah, the brain is an organand to think it's always
working 100%, it ain't.
And mine isn't right nowbecause my family has the flu
(19:17):
and I'm foggy, so and I knowthat and I'm okay with that.
So yeah, it's.
That's a big piece.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Good.
Yeah, I'm not sure if we'reready for the good news part yet
, but everything that you'resaying really, you know,
encourages the room about, theroom for either changing that
stigma or educating, educatingthe society for better
(19:49):
understanding.
But from what I'm thinkingright now is that, especially,
it is undeniably true thataddiction is affecting people.
So I think the power is more inempowering recovery.
You know, like, if we see thatI mean, that's been my
experience too that the more Isee people who are in recovery
(20:13):
and doing positive things, youknow so I'm focusing more on the
positive instead of how do Ierase the negative.
You know so the more we focuson the positive.
It just spreads, and negativitykind of reduces its power.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Stigma often thrives in silence and shame can silence
individuals further.
So I love the empowerment.
You know you brought up theself compassion and the Buddhist
perspectives and how embracingour own imperfections and
struggles can be atransformative step in breaking
down the walls of our owninternalized stigma and the
(20:50):
power of vulnerability.
Sharing personal stories can behugely empowering but it also
requires vulnerability.
So when we show that side wemay worry that we're going to
get hurt.
But boy, being open about ourstruggles and challenge the
stigma, we begin to break thoseold patterns and we begin to
(21:14):
change the stigma.
And there's a strength to that.
I'll give you an example.
There's a reason why cigarettesaren't smoked everywhere
anymore.
Used to happen all the timeeverywhere, everywhere.
People were smoking cigarettesin the airport, you know, in the
restaurant in your house, Ican't imagine.
(21:36):
In like the I guess the 60s itwas like every wall yellow from
cigarettes and now it's almostlike a stigma to smoke.
Osha standards, occupationalSafety and Health Administration
.
In 1970, there was a departmentof labor and they said for the
(21:57):
labor union, no, we have tofollow safety protocols.
And before there'd be someonefrom OSHA that says, nope, you
got to wear this helmet andthese old school guys would be
like F, you get out of here, orthey wouldn't tie up and their
harnesses right.
But now you wouldn't evenconsider that If people saw you
not wearing a helmet or tie upright on a job site, they'd look
(22:22):
at you and go what the heck areyou doing Like?
The stigma isn't to look bigand bad.
The stigma is why aren't youcaring about your safety and
your health?
So now being able to do thisfor our own well-being, our own
health, our mental health, oursubstance use journey is, to
(22:44):
your point, touch upon that alittle bit more.
The empowering part.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Yeah, that's.
You know, it's all aboutenjoying life and finding
happiness.
So I don't know recoverycommunity, it's just the best
part for that.
First of all, you don't feelalone and second of all, you
feel hopeful that it is possible, you know, to accept that we do
(23:14):
have this problem.
There's a disease of addiction,but like I don't have to die as
an addict you know I can die asa sober alcoholic or sober
addict or so that's veryempowering.
But also like it goes back towhat we were kind of bringing
that up to about.
Like addiction was like atreatment for something that
(23:38):
needed to be addressed beforethat.
So like, if I'm addressing thatand enjoying life, there's less
temptation.
And I think it's even true forpeople who are, who haven't
found addiction as a disease yet, you know.
But if they start enjoying lifeand I think about my children
(23:59):
that way too that if I can do mybest to provide positive
enjoyment, they do, and thenaddiction is not as appealing.
You know, if I'm enjoying lifebecause it really is a treatment
and escape or checking out, youknow it does have that effect.
That's why we did it, that'swhy I did it.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It's getting to that point.
And when we're not at the pointbeing okay, that we're not okay
, if things aren't where we wantthem to be, how do we reach out
for help?
And that'd be okay.
And I think that takeseducation and awareness, and it
(24:46):
takes campaigns, and it takesrealization of how mental
illness and chemical imbalanceswork and how addiction works on
the brain.
And even though we feel thatone day, and all of a sudden we
get surprised, you know, 24hours later, the next week, and
we hit this low bottom like man,how did I get here again?
And getting help with that?
(25:07):
And I think part of culture ispromoting positive role models.
I mean, I think, gosh, it'slike in the state of Maryland we
have Michael Phelps and he'sbeen very vocal about his
journey with some chemical useand certainly his mental health
and he's an advocate for seekingtherapy and treatment.
(25:31):
And his sister is wonderful andshe's in recovery and she's
doing life coaching and recoverycoaching and I just think about
people in you know, m&m, theDetroit Lions are in the
playoffs and he's an advocatefor recovery and my god, now
we're going for best picturesand stuff like that and Bradley
(25:53):
Cooper and musicians likeMacklemore, and there are all
these people that are.
They begin to be cool, to be tocare about your mental health
and sobriety.
I think it's beginning to do aparadigm shift.
What do you think it'sinspiring?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, yeah, it's very neat, yeah you touched on this
a little bit too earlier aboutthe connection between stigma
and silence.
You know I spend more on thattoo, because that's a power that
I've seen in my own recoveryjourney and also in recovery
community.
There is a sense of trust.
(26:27):
You know, I think trust openscommunication.
Trust open the courage to askfor help, but silence has to do
with judgment.
You know fear.
So like that's also what I feelgood about these great examples
and recovery community, or youknow, where people have those
(26:49):
stories and it invites peoplewho are struggling that you're
not alone but also that you canopen up and trust and ask for
help, because it can be a verylonely world where I think I'm
the only one dealing with thisand there's no one else.
It can be very frightening.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
It's one of my.
There's plenty of things that Ilove doing about being a
therapist, but that kind oftransition, seeing clients go
from what do I tell my friends,my coworkers, my loved ones, my
boss, and going from I'm notgoing to shout out on top of the
(27:31):
rooftop I don't know what Iever asked you to to them
getting more and morecomfortable with their own
stigma and minimizing their ownshame and their own fear and
being more comfortable in justbeing a person that doesn't use
anymore, or a person that hasdepression, anxiety or bipolar
(27:54):
or whatever it is, and they'retreating it and then seeing that
shift of fear, unknown doubt,uncertainty.
How do they address people to?
They just get comfortable andit's their own stigma, not the
other people's stigma, that theystruggle with, and their own
fears and the silence and theshame.
And that's a big thing we do,as you know, you as a life coach
(28:17):
, recovery coach and me as atherapist.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yeah, and I think like it even extends beyond
people in recovery.
There are just so manyprinciples in recovery or tools
that people who struggle withaddiction use that go across the
board.
I think it even is inspiring tonon addict you know, non
alcoholic because there's asense of, yeah, not giving up,
(28:44):
but also that courage to ask forhelp and then, yeah, almost
like embracing and making thebest out of the worst, and
there's something very humanlyinspiring about that that goes
beyond people outside ofaddiction as well.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Absolutely.
Yeah, well said, we'rebeginning to challenge
stereotypes.
Huh, Doesn't get this wayovernight, doesn't change
overnight.
Huh, Any other thoughts?
As we wrap up this conversationand it's something that I think
you know we talk about,whatever things we often say in
the beginning of our intro ofevery episode, we often say a
(29:27):
collective solution to healthand wellness.
Part of health and wellness isallowing yourself to get
healthier and get healthier, getwell, you know, and that's
takes vulnerability, it takescourage and it takes
conversations to humanize this,doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yes, as you mentioned , stereotypes to.
I guess the final message thatcomes to mind for me is about
you know, I'm all aboutconnections, these things you
know, because, especially, Ifeel I missed out a lot on the
connection deep in my addictionand also in my fearful days.
So that's, I want to promotethat and I want to encourage
(30:13):
people to do that, especially inthis day of like social media
and internet and things likethat.
Like the world is not as itseems, there's so many things
that are hidden and I don't knowwhat it is until I interact.
So like a person out there issomewhere would seem like he's
me, but he's actually a verynice person, but I won't find
(30:35):
out until I communicate.
So I really want to spread thatmessage of interacting with
each other, because we neverknow, the appearance doesn't
always reflect the internal roleof people.
So for me, that's been the bestmystery and also a curiosity.
When I wake up, I just want totalk to people to really see
(30:56):
their internal role and fulfillmy role too.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Well said, Well said.
Let's close on that, shall we,Okay?
In conclusion, let's carryforward the wisdom gained from
today's exploration, Acknowledgethe power of your story and
brace vulnerability andcultivate empathy.
These are the building blocksof a society free from the
chains of stigma.
Remember recovery is a journeyand every step forward is a
(31:25):
triumph.
Let's continue this dialogue,challenge perceptions and build
a world where everyone's journeyis met with compassion and
understanding.
Thank you for being a part of atherapist's abuse in you.
Until next time, stay resilient, stay compassionate and
remember your story is powerfulcatalysts for your change.
Please like, comment, subscribeand share with others, as
(31:47):
collectively we can do a lottogether.
My name is Luke and this is Zau.
See you next time.
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