July 29, 2024 • 34 mins
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Can gifts truly emerge from the depths of active addiction? Our latest episode promises to uncover the hidden gifts that come from using, providing you with insights that go beyond the commonly highlighted trauma and devastation. By exploring the complex transformation that occurs from substance dependence to a purposeful, intentional life, we aim to highlight how renewed relationships, mental clarity, and a sense of accomplishment make the arduous path of recovery worthwhile.
We also discuss the paradoxical empathy often found within those battling addiction. Despite being perceived as selfish, many individuals struggling with addiction show profound empathy towards others in similar situations, and this shared empathy becomes a powerful recovery tool. Our conversation knocks off the thick denial to the occasional moments of heightened self-awareness that often surface during addiction, revealing the stark contrast between right and wrong and serving as pivotal points in the journey toward sobriety. This nuanced discussion aims to shed light on the inner world of those affected by addiction, fostering a deeper understanding of their struggles and strengths.
We aim to create a supportive community space for growth and healing. As we bid farewell until season 3 (September), we urge everyone to recognize the hidden gifts along their path and keep pushing forward. Thank you for joining us, and we look forward to continuing this journey together.
Season two comes to a close at the end of July as we'll be working on our E-Course. We'll take the month of August off and see you again in September.
New Episodes are released every other Monday.
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The episodes contain content, including information provided by guests, intended for perspective, informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, legal, or other advice. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you have a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 or 9-8-8
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to A Therapist to Buddhists and you,
brought to you by the RecoveryCollective.
We're based in Annapolis,Maryland, offering a haven of
hope and support on your journeyto healing and growth.
I'm your co-host and therapist,luke Dubois, joined by the
insightful Zal Maul, ourfavorite Buddhist co-host, hey
Zal, hey.
By the insightful Zalmol, ourfavorite Buddhist co-host.
Hey Zal, hey, luke.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
What's going?
Speaker 1 (00:27):
on.
We've got a good topic today,so I'm excited to jump into it.
The topic we're diving in todaymight be counterintuitive at
first the gifts of addiction andthe gifts of recovery.
When you're deep in addiction,it can be nearly impossible to
see any positives.
The pain and turmoil canobscure any potential silver
(00:52):
linings.
But today we're exploring theunexpected strengths and
insights that can arise fromaddiction, helping to reshape
our understanding of thischallenging journey.
We'll also shine the light onthe undeniable gifts that come
from recovery, from renewedrelationships to mental clarity
and a sense of accomplishment.
Recovery offers transformativetreasures that make the struggle
worthwhile.
(01:13):
So, whether you're currentlynavigating addiction, walking
the path of recovery, supportinga loved one, or simply curious
about this ever so fascinatinghuman experience, this episode
has something for you.
We'll explore the hiddenstrengths that can emerge from
addiction and the powerfultransformations that recovery
brings.
(01:34):
Before we jump in, if youhaven't already, make sure to
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(01:56):
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(02:16):
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All right, so when we talk aboutthe gifts of addiction, we're
(03:43):
referring to the unexpectedstrengths and insights that can
emerge from an experience oftenviewed solely on really that
negative light.
While addiction is undeniablychallenging, destructive and
ultimately miserable, it canalso lead to profound personal
revelations and growth, toprofound personal revelations
(04:04):
and growth.
These gifts are really thesilver linings, the hidden
positives that can come from thestruggle.
So, zal, I challenge us todiscuss the gifts of addiction
and explore these unexpectedpositives.
However, I want to make amoment for this very important
(04:25):
PSA.
It's crucial for you guys toknow that we understand that
addiction itself is devastating.
When someone succumbs to thegrip of addiction and perishes,
there is no gift in that loss.
Addiction brings profoundtrauma to the person suffering,
as well as to their family,friends and loved ones.
Its impact is far-reaching andheart-wrenching.
It's relentless.
(04:46):
Its purpose, I feel, reallyseems singular Addiction wants
to destroy lives and takeeverything from those it
captures.
It doesn't discriminate, itshows no mercy and it leaves
just a wake of pain and despair.
So the journey of recovery isabout reclaiming life from this
destructive force, finding hope,healing where once there was
(05:08):
only darkness.
So before we get going, zal andI certainly acknowledge the
strengths and resilience thatcan arise through recovery let's
also remember the gravity ofaddiction.
If you or someone you know isstruggling, please seek help.
There are resources andcommunities ready to support you
, including the RecoveryCollective.
(05:28):
Together we can fight thisbattle and support each other in
the journey towards healing andgrowth.
While we have this in mind,let's delve into it and let's
talk about how the gifts thatcan emerge from addiction.
Let's get going, zal.
What do you think Sounds?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
good yeah, like you said, it's quite
counterintuitive can emerge fromaddiction.
Let's get going Zal.
What do you think Sounds good?
Yeah, like you said, it's quitecounterintuitive.
So curious how thisconversation is going to go in
terms of starting with gifts ofaddiction.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So am I.
Do we know what we're doing?
Zal, I think we know a littlebit.
Okay, all right, let's walkthrough this together with our
listeners.
Okay, all right, let's walkthrough this together with our
listeners.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Firstly, don't we think addiction can cultivate
resilience In hindsight?
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
I agree.
I mean, there's so many highsand lows in the act of addiction
, isn't there?
It takes a lot.
A lot of times people feel likethey're living double lives
when they're in active use.
I mean there's got to be someamount of inner strength to deal
with the ups and downs ofliving while trying to use this
(06:36):
thing that's trying to kill us.
I mean there's a lot ofresilience in there, don't you
think?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I mean a lot of talents were developed too in my
active addiction.
For me to get the next drugnext hit, next high, I had to
develop some talents to getthose.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Granted.
Those talents might bemanipulation, lying, stealing,
but I think the point that we'regetting at is that if you can
deal with the lows that comewith addiction and the negatives
, with the lows that come withaddiction and the negatives, and
somehow we rebound and find away to continue to use, and I
(07:14):
mean you can get throughanything.
It takes a lot of work, a lotof power, a lot of energy.
It's trying to take everythingfrom us, so even though it's
trying to take everything fromus.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I think it takes a lot of resilience to get through
that.
Yeah, in a strange way I'mbeing reminded of this.
Saying that I heard when I wasyoung.
I was really into arts when Iwas growing up and my dad is a
doctor but he's really good withdrawing and cartoons and things
like that and I was learninghow to do some artwork and
(07:54):
apparently there was a sayingabout don't let your audience
see the product before it isfinished.
I'm kind of reminded about that.
About the gifts the storyhasn't ended, but then when we
get to the other side, the giftswere revealed, but in the thick
of it, like nothing was fun,you know.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So like the gifts are being prepared being made, you
know, in the background as we'rein the depth of addiction.
Yeah, it's, and some peoplelistening, me included, it goes
well.
Those examples of resiliencethat I gave aren't good
characteristics, Manipulation,lying, and that's true.
But there's a form of adaptationthat we do to continue to
(08:38):
survive while something's tryingto kill us.
Eventually those things will beused for good.
Eventually that picture will beused for good.
Eventually that picture will befinished, that art will be
complete.
Now, the artist might notalways like the finished product
and can see the blemishes, but,man, there's resiliency in
working through a continualproject, I guess.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, maybe this is an obvious word for everybody,
but maybe it will be helpful tothink about the word gift too.
It's um I guess I kind oflooked it up before we started
talking about the idea of gift.
It can be a talent, it can be acapacity of some kind.
When somebody is gifted, youknow, somebody is born with this
capabilities.
But also it's a transfer ofenergy without compensation, so
(09:23):
I get some like an endowment, Iget something without me having
to do anything.
It's like an unequal kind ofdeserving of something.
So I think the gift in hindsightwas just the fact that I'm just
given so much these things thatI didn't know I deserve as a
result.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So there is that kind of a surprising benefit that
came out of those difficultiesand I think we see that in our
work that we do that, thatresiliency that is needed to
hide and function and useforever for however long that
person is when they're in theearly part of recovery.
(10:05):
It's hard to see thatresiliency and one thing that we
do is we help those, thosepeople struggling in early
recovery, with that resiliencythat they have.
That might be hidden in shameand guilt and those things, but
they have that resiliency thatthey were able to tap into an
(10:26):
active addiction and we learnhow to tap into and a lot of our
aspects of life and recovery.
Let's go to the next one.
Yeah, another gift an activeaddiction empathy.
Now, those who have facedaddiction often develop a deep
(10:48):
understanding and compassion forothers in similar situations.
I imagine there are a lot ofpeople that are cringing that
says did Luke just say addictsare empathetic?
They're the most selfish son ofa bitch, selfish, self-centered
people I've ever seen.
How can Luke say that they'reempathetic?
They're the most selfish son ofa bitch, selfish, self-centered
people I've ever seen.
How can Luke say that they'reempathetic?
It's bizarre, I know.
(11:10):
So let me give you an example.
There would be people that youknow what You're living in a
crack den with others andsomehow you form a bond over the
shared struggles.
You don't have a pillow or ablanket, but you've got empathy
for the person that's next toyou using and you might not be
eating.
Or when someone steals yourdrugs or money and you might not
(11:35):
murder them, because youunderstand that desperation,
knowing you might do the same intheir possession.
Isn't that empathy?
Weirdly enough, you guys shouldsee Zal's face.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, I mean that is empathy, being able to put
yourself in other people's shoes, being able to relate.
Some form of empathy for sure,yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
You might find yourself sharing the last bit of
your stash with someone whoneeds it just as badly as you do
, recognizing their pain, thembeing dope sick, them shaking
from alcohol, but you still givethem the last.
Or you share your drugs withthem, knowing that you're going
to have to go hunt and searchand lie, cheat and steal for
(12:23):
your drugs, but you still shareit.
That's empathy, wild right?
Yeah, I mean to me like.
These Moments of connection,though warped in the chaos of
addiction, highlight how empathydevelops in a healthy way when
(12:44):
we channel it in positivity andrecovery.
It becomes super powerful andalmost essential when we're down
and out and someone canempathize with us and feel with
us.
Someone can empathize with usand feel with us.
Now, loved ones, bosses, familymembers often get the selfish
and the self-centered part ofaddiction and lack any empathy
(13:07):
for the family, for the boss,for negatively affecting them.
But it doesn't mean it's stillnot in there somewhere, you
agree, but it doesn't mean thatit's still not in there
somewhere.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
You agree.
Yeah, it's like a subculture ofthe empathy in its own entity.
Yeah, I mean, maybe we'll talkabout this in the gifts of
recovery, but it also becomes acommon language to be able to
help other addicts too.
Down the line, I guess empathyeven gets more pronounced In the
(13:40):
recovery literature.
It talks about being able touniquely helpful to other people
, and I'm very thankful for thattoo, that I got help from the
people who have gone throughwhat I was going through.
So actually we're also beingprepared to be useful to fellow
addicts too.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
It doesn't matter how hellacious, how guilt-ridden,
how shameful the thing thatyou've done in your active
addiction.
The people that are in activerecovery don't look down on you
because they know what that waslike to do that, what it was
like to feel that way, andyou're not alone in that to do
that, what it was like to feelthat way, and you're not alone
(14:18):
in that.
So that is one of the greatestarmor skill sets, tools that we
have.
When we are down and out,people help us and I think that
can be very hard for familymembers and loved ones because
they get to feel all thenegative from it.
But to have grace andcompassion, that person that you
(14:38):
do love, it's in there.
It might be really deep inthere, but, man, if we can have
empathy for their illness, theirsickness, what they're battling
through to try to survive andstay alive because you might not
see it, but guess what they'regiving and feeling empathy when
they're in rehab, their abilityto support each other in that
(15:04):
early recovery process is likenothing I've seen and they feel
like there's these family bondswith their new family members
when their family members arekicking them out of the house,
won't talk to them and they'reout and they see this different
side to them, and just hours anddays after using I mean that
empathy is there.
So it's certainly going tobenefit them in recovery.
(15:28):
To your point, what's the nextone?
This one might be hard tobelieve too.
So brace yourself.
Increased self-awareness.
Tell me more Before peoplecringe and turn off the podcast.
Hear me out.
It takes a lot of drugs to numbout and push down a conscious,
(15:51):
but I've seen so many battleaddiction that have that moment
of clarity, acknowledge thatfear, realize what they're doing
, and it might be there just fora moment, but usually denial
doesn't last for too too longwithout drugs and alcohol, and I
think that's when people tendto get sober, that they have
(16:12):
that awareness.
They know the difference betweenright and wrong awareness.
They know the differencebetween right and wrong.
They might be justifying andrationalizing and lying so they
don't have to feel it.
But, man, when they've got thatand their true self come to
thine, own self, be true, thattrue self comes to the surface,
and it might only be a minute orit might be just a part of a
(16:34):
conversation and an interventionor an active use, but they feel
fear, they feel shame, theyhave that self-awareness.
They do everything they can topush that down so they can keep
doing and living the way they'reliving.
Goodness, I can't tell you howmany people in that crack house,
(16:55):
in that stolen car, in the tent, whatever, wherever, they know
the difference between right orwrong I'd say more than 90% of
the time.
Their actions and what they saymay say differently, but over
the years I see it all the timethey have that self-awareness
(17:16):
and it starts an activeaddiction.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah, that's an interesting spin on it, Because
that's also it's the drive formore using right, Because of
that consciousness, because ofthat self-awareness that keeps
coming up every time you're nothigh.
So yeah, I've never thought ofit that way, but that's an
interesting spin on it, Becausethe more I push it, the more it
comes back.
I feel like that's the natureof the truth too the more I push
(17:41):
the truth away, the stronger itcomes back.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Why is relapse so high?
Because when you stop using andyou can't numb that out
momentarily anymore thatself-awareness of what they did
and what they're feeling is verypresent.
Drugs don't want you to feelthat so you don't change.
They want you to feel guilt andshame and stay there and numb
it out so it can kill you.
(18:06):
But man that vulnerability.
They begin to identify theirpersonal triggers.
They begin to identify what Icall emotional sobriety and then
either numb it out or, becauseof that self-awareness, they
grow from it.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, that really pronounced the idea of a gift.
You know, because people inrecovery knows that awareness,
self-awareness, that becomeskind of like my superpower, that
I need to work with it.
You know, I heard this.
This is one of the dailyreadings that I do in one of the
fellowships that I go to, andthe reading ends with this
quotation which is kind of aspin on what people always says
(18:51):
about the saying usually isdon't just sit, do something
right.
But the saying they use is likedon't do something right, but
the saying they use is likedon't just do something sit.
I feel like that's the trick inrecovery too, like that
self-awareness part, like whenI'm feeling fearful, I'm feeling
uncertain about the future,feeling very confused about the
situation.
That's where thatself-awareness I need to sit
(19:13):
with it.
And then the self-awarenesscomes like what are my values,
what's important for me, andthen the action that I need to
take becomes clear as a resultof that self-awareness and more
integrity.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
So yeah, great point, a positive way, with that
resiliency, with that ability tochange, with that ability to
overcome obstacles and activeaddiction.
Here's another one we overcomeobstacles may lead to more
(19:48):
negative obstacles, but we learnto overcome these things in a
healthy way.
The journey through addictioninvolves numerous challenges,
and successfully navigatingthese can build confidence and a
sense of accomplishment andthat's a gift.
And if we can do that With anegative light, we can certainly
(20:13):
do that in a positive light.
And that's the differencebetween active using and
negativity and stop using.
And then the recovery journey,overcoming obstacles in a
healthy way, and I think some ofthe gifts that we just talked
about the increasedself-awareness, the
vulnerability, the ability tohave empathy for ourselves, the
(20:36):
resiliency, and that's how weovercome obstacles right.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, I'm just coming up with all these sayings, but
whenever we have theseconversations, all these things
that I've learned from all theseconversations come up about,
yeah, obstacles actually becomeslike opportunities right for
growth and yeah, so those wereall kinds of opportunities,
although they seemed likeobstacles, but they're always
(21:03):
opportunities.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And I think it's really clear in active addiction
you might crash and burnrepeatedly and then manage to
adapt and find a way to get highagain.
You might lose your job due toaddiction, but somehow you find
money to use again.
Addiction, but somehow you findmoney to use again.
The ability to navigate throughcrises and think on your feet
and bounce back from failurescan become an invaluable tool
when used for good.
(21:23):
We just use it to get high atany and all costs for survival
and then eventually it goes.
Okay.
This isn't life or death andthis isn't the saying I'm a
mountain out of a molehill whereeverything is chaotic.
Okay, but I can overcomeobstacles and recovery and not
create obstacles that I'movercoming and addiction.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, developing some problem-solving skills.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, I think it's this one no-transcript, not just
(22:19):
dope sick.
Then they get sick like I don'tknow how that happens.
I don't know what happens whensomeone's using heroin, that
they never get sick and they'relike superman or superwoman.
But then they get off it andthey're good through detox and
then their immune system crashes.
But with the mental health it'saffecting our brain and
(22:41):
damaging our brain so much andour ability to cope with
anything, let alone depression,anxiety or stressors, that it
can exacerbate depression,anxiety, bipolar and mania and
schizophrenia and suicidalideation.
But it gives us ability tounderstand the importance of
(23:02):
maintaining mental health andwell-being because we know what
it's like to not have that,especially in active addiction.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah, in a way too, I was striving for my own version
of sanity, my own version ofmental health, kind of like a
self-medication.
So in a weird way it wasn'tworking.
But also that's what I wasstriving for, like to have that
(23:33):
unstable mental health that wasonly sustainable through my drug
of choice, as opposed to real,real sanity, real health, you
know that's sustainableabsolutely well, we hit a little
bit of both, certainly thegifts of addiction.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
We did some countering with what happens
when we're in sobriety andrecovery with it.
Let's highlight a couple more.
Um, do you want to pull up the?
They're literally called thegifts of recovery, aren't they?
When it comes to chemicaldependency, anonymous alcoholics
, anonymous they're these thingsthat they call the promises
(24:14):
will happen when you work thesteps in the 12-step program.
Alcoholics Anonymous has thepromises.
Chemical Dependency has thegifts of recovery.
Let's read the gifts ofrecovery.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
This is where I pick up my 24-hour chip.
Ever in a Chemically DependentAnonymous meeting, cool, and I
went back there to speak andit's just so crazy I guess this
is true about meetings that theyread the same thing since I
came in, but then how they hitme is so different, you know.
So I was hearing the giftsbeing read.
(24:46):
I was like these are the samegifts that I heard 10 years ago,
but they mean so much to me now.
That's good stuff.
So these are the.
I think there are 10 in total,so I'll read all of them.
We live one day at a time withdignity and self-respect.
Number two we replace fear andself-pity with courage and
(25:08):
gratitude.
Three we accept the changes inour life with optimism and hope.
We learn how to lighten up,laugh often and have fun again.
We find that challenges andsetbacks become the touchstones
of spiritual growth.
We discover our talents andgifts and unlock their full
(25:31):
potential.
We experience freedom as weforgive ourselves and others.
We are willing to take risks aswe choose growth over fear.
We develop healthyrelationships as we learn how to
communicate with respect andlove.
We believe that love andservice are the foundation of a
(25:52):
lifetime of happiness as wecontinue on our journey, the
possibilities are endless.
Remember, the sky is the limit,Boy.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
those things are attracting.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, I got to say this, though, that I think you
mentioned this a long, long timeago in one of the episodes
about setting up the conditions.
People use that example offarming, for example I'm just
setting the conditions the soil,watering, sunlight.
I don't make the plants grow.
Something greater makes it grow.
And I feel like it's the samething with the gifts, too.
(26:24):
I was never like, oh, I'm goingto make that gift happen, let
me come up with a plan to makethis gift come into my life, but
it was more like a side effectof all the things that we're
supposed to do as conditions,and these were given to us.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
And I think that's the silver lining right there.
It's a gift.
The silver lining is when weset up the conditions and it may
seem, and is a dark, negativeway, an act of addiction, but,
man, these can transform intojust beautiful gifts of optimism
(26:59):
and hope, self-respect, talentswe get to forgive ourselves and
others, healthy relationships.
I mean.
These are gifts that thesethings transform into when used
for good.
The sense of purpose andmeaning is, I think, maybe one
of the biggest gifts of recoverythat somehow, when we stop
(27:21):
using and lose this need toevolve around this substance
liquid, powder, smoke and thenstop using and align an
intentional way of life, thedesire and need to use is so far
(27:41):
gone and gives us helpingothers through our experience
and through our resiliency andthrough our obstacles, gives us
so much self-improvement, givesus appreciation for life, gives
us purpose and meaning and itstrengthens, identify who we are
and who we're not.
(28:02):
There's no better gift.
I always say I got sober at 20,and the steps in my recovery
journey through support andtreatment and therapy and
spirituality.
I like to think I had aquarter-life crisis at 20.
Through support and treatmentand therapy and spirituality, I
(28:23):
like to think I had aquarter-life crisis at 20, and
these steps helped me withobstacles in my sobriety and
struggles and resiliency thatlife throws at me, I just don't
have to add to it as much as Iused to when I was using and
that's a gift.
That's a gift.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, I feel like I'm a quotation machine tonight,
but another thing that remindsme about the gift is that I have
a therapist that I've beenseeing for a long time and she
always brings that up about.
Tomorrow is worry, is future.
That hasn't happened yet, andyesterday was just like a regret
(29:01):
, guilt, shame.
That has already happened.
But today is a gift, becausethat's why they call it the
present.
That's right.
I love that, true, though yeah,it's so true, it's.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
And if we can live in the present, live in today and
see all these benefits, it's agift, Absolutely.
A lot of this aligns withMaslow's hierarchy of needs.
He calls it kind of likemotivational theory and there's
a few levels, five tiers.
And the first level is the needfor shelter, warmth and food,
(29:36):
and that certainly happens whenpeople stop using that, they're
not on that liquid diet.
All of a sudden the crack housedoesn't seem so glorious.
And then we have the desire andneed for wanting a roof over
our head and we want more safetyand predictability and healthy
control in our lives.
But the last two is esteem.
(29:57):
The fourth level is self-worth,accomplishment, respect for
ourselves and other people, andthat becomes a very important
recovery and I like to align mywill according to the 12 steps
with my higher power's will, andif I can do that then I feel
like I'm going to live a goodway of life.
(30:19):
I'd like to hear your Buddhistperspective on that.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, the metaphor or the saying is maybe it's more
of a translation it's theawakening of the heart, like the
purity of the mind.
Those are the thoughts thatcome to me about aligning one's
will with a higher power's will,because, you know, all these
concepts of compassion,generosity, forgiveness, these
are all what we're made up of.
(30:46):
That is hidden in activeaddiction, but when we are sober
we get to awaken those valuesin us.
So, yeah, that's my take on itin terms of those needs being
met.
But also it becomes moreimportant about the esteem, the
integrity, things that wereactually the essence of our
(31:06):
being right, like the spirit isreally the essence of what we're
made up of, and then we get toreawaken that.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Yeah, it's good.
And the fifth tier, the finaltier, the top of the pyramid, is
self-actualization.
This highest level refers tothe realizations of our own
potential, self-fulfillment,seeking personal growth, peak
experiences.
Some people call it highersense of self, higher purpose,
(31:38):
and I think that's a gift too,that'd be a motivation, that'd
be a guiding factor, doing thatin a healthy way.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah, that's good, that's inspiring Life is about
growth, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
But I stopped that growth in active addiction.
And then some I was dying.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Well, what do you know?
Yeah, but I stopped that growthin active addiction and then
some I was dying.
But what do you think?
Do you think we were able tobalance the gifts of addiction
and the gifts of recovery?
Think we were able to do that?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, yeah, I guess it all comes under the category
of the gifts of the journey ofrecovery, right, yeah, because
recovery already was in themaking in our active addiction,
but sadly that's not true foreveryone.
But at the same time, whoeveris struggling out there, the
journey has begun.
So, yeah, the gifts is veryinclusive of everything that
(32:30):
we've gone through.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yeah, agreed.
As we wrap up today'sdiscussion on the gifts of
addiction and recovery, we hopeyou found value in understanding
both perspectives.
Whether you're navigatingaddiction, walking the path of
recovery, supporting a loved one, we believe that recognizing
these gifts can lead to personalgrowth and transformation.
Not just about overcomingchallenges.
(32:53):
It's about embracing thestrengths and insights that come
from those experiences.
As you move forward, take timeto reflect on your journey and
acknowledge the gifts you'vediscovered along the way.
Don't forget to subscribe toour newsletter for more valuable
insights, practical tips, alongwith exclusive content
throughout the way.
(33:15):
We'd love to hear from you.
Do you have a question orcomment for us or for other
listeners?
We're providing a collectivespace to share collective wisdom
and we think it would beawesome to have you as a part of
an episode.
Remember, we can docollectively what we cannot do
alone.
So please take a moment, textus or email us questions.
If you're listening on yourphone, just pull it up and click
(33:38):
it.
Thank you for joining us.
This is the last episode ofSeason 2.
We're not releasing anyepisodes for the month of August
.
The podcast will be back inSeptember and remember, the path
to recovery and growth isfilled with hidden gifts waiting
to be discovered.
Keep your journey growing.
My name is Luke.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
And this is Zal.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
See ya.
Welcome to A Therapist to Buddhists and you,
brought to you by the RecoveryCollective.
We're based in Annapolis,Maryland, offering a haven of
hope and support on your journeyto healing and growth.
I'm your co-host and therapist,luke Dubois, joined by the
insightful Zal Maul, ourfavorite Buddhist co-host, hey
Zal, hey.
By the insightful Zalmol, ourfavorite Buddhist co-host.
Hey Zal, hey, luke.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
What's going?
Speaker 1 (00:27):
on.
We've got a good topic today,so I'm excited to jump into it.
The topic we're diving in todaymight be counterintuitive at
first the gifts of addiction andthe gifts of recovery.
When you're deep in addiction,it can be nearly impossible to
see any positives.
The pain and turmoil canobscure any potential silver
(00:52):
linings.
But today we're exploring theunexpected strengths and
insights that can arise fromaddiction, helping to reshape
our understanding of thischallenging journey.
We'll also shine the light onthe undeniable gifts that come
from recovery, from renewedrelationships to mental clarity
and a sense of accomplishment.
Recovery offers transformativetreasures that make the struggle
worthwhile.
(01:13):
So, whether you're currentlynavigating addiction, walking
the path of recovery, supportinga loved one, or simply curious
about this ever so fascinatinghuman experience, this episode
has something for you.
We'll explore the hiddenstrengths that can emerge from
addiction and the powerfultransformations that recovery
brings.
(01:34):
Before we jump in, if youhaven't already, make sure to
subscribe to our podcast.
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Considering supporting usthrough the episode notes.
We'd be thrilled, and we'lleven give you a shout out in our
(01:56):
next episode, speaking ofengagement and all we want to
hear from you.
We're providing a collectivespace to share collective wisdom
, and we think it would beawesome to have an Ask Us
Anything episode or a segmentevery once in a while where we
can connect more with you, ourlisteners.
We really believe in the powerof community.
(02:16):
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(02:36):
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So wouldn't that be fun for us?
That'd be a fun one.
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(03:20):
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So join our community and thenewsletter, and it's one quick
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All right, so when we talk aboutthe gifts of addiction, we're
(03:43):
referring to the unexpectedstrengths and insights that can
emerge from an experience oftenviewed solely on really that
negative light.
While addiction is undeniablychallenging, destructive and
ultimately miserable, it canalso lead to profound personal
revelations and growth, toprofound personal revelations
(04:04):
and growth.
These gifts are really thesilver linings, the hidden
positives that can come from thestruggle.
So, zal, I challenge us todiscuss the gifts of addiction
and explore these unexpectedpositives.
However, I want to make amoment for this very important
(04:25):
PSA.
It's crucial for you guys toknow that we understand that
addiction itself is devastating.
When someone succumbs to thegrip of addiction and perishes,
there is no gift in that loss.
Addiction brings profoundtrauma to the person suffering,
as well as to their family,friends and loved ones.
Its impact is far-reaching andheart-wrenching.
It's relentless.
(04:46):
Its purpose, I feel, reallyseems singular Addiction wants
to destroy lives and takeeverything from those it
captures.
It doesn't discriminate, itshows no mercy and it leaves
just a wake of pain and despair.
So the journey of recovery isabout reclaiming life from this
destructive force, finding hope,healing where once there was
(05:08):
only darkness.
So before we get going, zal andI certainly acknowledge the
strengths and resilience thatcan arise through recovery let's
also remember the gravity ofaddiction.
If you or someone you know isstruggling, please seek help.
There are resources andcommunities ready to support you
, including the RecoveryCollective.
(05:28):
Together we can fight thisbattle and support each other in
the journey towards healing andgrowth.
While we have this in mind,let's delve into it and let's
talk about how the gifts thatcan emerge from addiction.
Let's get going, zal.
What do you think Sounds?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
good yeah, like you said, it's quite
counterintuitive can emerge fromaddiction.
Let's get going Zal.
What do you think Sounds good?
Yeah, like you said, it's quitecounterintuitive.
So curious how thisconversation is going to go in
terms of starting with gifts ofaddiction.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So am I.
Do we know what we're doing?
Zal, I think we know a littlebit.
Okay, all right, let's walkthrough this together with our
listeners.
Okay, all right, let's walkthrough this together with our
listeners.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Firstly, don't we think addiction can cultivate
resilience In hindsight?
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
I agree.
I mean, there's so many highsand lows in the act of addiction
, isn't there?
It takes a lot.
A lot of times people feel likethey're living double lives
when they're in active use.
I mean there's got to be someamount of inner strength to deal
with the ups and downs ofliving while trying to use this
(06:36):
thing that's trying to kill us.
I mean there's a lot ofresilience in there, don't you
think?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I mean a lot of talents were developed too in my
active addiction.
For me to get the next drugnext hit, next high, I had to
develop some talents to getthose.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Granted.
Those talents might bemanipulation, lying, stealing,
but I think the point that we'regetting at is that if you can
deal with the lows that comewith addiction and the negatives
, with the lows that come withaddiction and the negatives, and
somehow we rebound and find away to continue to use, and I
(07:14):
mean you can get throughanything.
It takes a lot of work, a lotof power, a lot of energy.
It's trying to take everythingfrom us, so even though it's
trying to take everything fromus.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I think it takes a lot of resilience to get through
that.
Yeah, in a strange way I'mbeing reminded of this.
Saying that I heard when I wasyoung.
I was really into arts when Iwas growing up and my dad is a
doctor but he's really good withdrawing and cartoons and things
like that and I was learninghow to do some artwork and
(07:54):
apparently there was a sayingabout don't let your audience
see the product before it isfinished.
I'm kind of reminded about that.
About the gifts the storyhasn't ended, but then when we
get to the other side, the giftswere revealed, but in the thick
of it, like nothing was fun,you know.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So like the gifts are being prepared being made, you
know, in the background as we'rein the depth of addiction.
Yeah, it's, and some peoplelistening, me included, it goes
well.
Those examples of resiliencethat I gave aren't good
characteristics, Manipulation,lying, and that's true.
But there's a form of adaptationthat we do to continue to
(08:38):
survive while something's tryingto kill us.
Eventually those things will beused for good.
Eventually that picture will beused for good.
Eventually that picture will befinished, that art will be
complete.
Now, the artist might notalways like the finished product
and can see the blemishes, but,man, there's resiliency in
working through a continualproject, I guess.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, maybe this is an obvious word for everybody,
but maybe it will be helpful tothink about the word gift too.
It's um I guess I kind oflooked it up before we started
talking about the idea of gift.
It can be a talent, it can be acapacity of some kind.
When somebody is gifted, youknow, somebody is born with this
capabilities.
But also it's a transfer ofenergy without compensation, so
(09:23):
I get some like an endowment, Iget something without me having
to do anything.
It's like an unequal kind ofdeserving of something.
So I think the gift in hindsightwas just the fact that I'm just
given so much these things thatI didn't know I deserve as a
result.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So there is that kind of a surprising benefit that
came out of those difficultiesand I think we see that in our
work that we do that, thatresiliency that is needed to
hide and function and useforever for however long that
person is when they're in theearly part of recovery.
(10:05):
It's hard to see thatresiliency and one thing that we
do is we help those, thosepeople struggling in early
recovery, with that resiliencythat they have.
That might be hidden in shameand guilt and those things, but
they have that resiliency thatthey were able to tap into an
(10:26):
active addiction and we learnhow to tap into and a lot of our
aspects of life and recovery.
Let's go to the next one.
Yeah, another gift an activeaddiction empathy.
Now, those who have facedaddiction often develop a deep
(10:48):
understanding and compassion forothers in similar situations.
I imagine there are a lot ofpeople that are cringing that
says did Luke just say addictsare empathetic?
They're the most selfish son ofa bitch, selfish, self-centered
people I've ever seen.
How can Luke say that they'reempathetic?
They're the most selfish son ofa bitch, selfish, self-centered
people I've ever seen.
How can Luke say that they'reempathetic?
It's bizarre, I know.
(11:10):
So let me give you an example.
There would be people that youknow what You're living in a
crack den with others andsomehow you form a bond over the
shared struggles.
You don't have a pillow or ablanket, but you've got empathy
for the person that's next toyou using and you might not be
eating.
Or when someone steals yourdrugs or money and you might not
(11:35):
murder them, because youunderstand that desperation,
knowing you might do the same intheir possession.
Isn't that empathy?
Weirdly enough, you guys shouldsee Zal's face.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, I mean that is empathy, being able to put
yourself in other people's shoes, being able to relate.
Some form of empathy for sure,yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
You might find yourself sharing the last bit of
your stash with someone whoneeds it just as badly as you do
, recognizing their pain, thembeing dope sick, them shaking
from alcohol, but you still givethem the last.
Or you share your drugs withthem, knowing that you're going
to have to go hunt and searchand lie, cheat and steal for
(12:23):
your drugs, but you still shareit.
That's empathy, wild right?
Yeah, I mean to me like.
These Moments of connection,though warped in the chaos of
addiction, highlight how empathydevelops in a healthy way when
(12:44):
we channel it in positivity andrecovery.
It becomes super powerful andalmost essential when we're down
and out and someone canempathize with us and feel with
us.
Someone can empathize with usand feel with us.
Now, loved ones, bosses, familymembers often get the selfish
and the self-centered part ofaddiction and lack any empathy
(13:07):
for the family, for the boss,for negatively affecting them.
But it doesn't mean it's stillnot in there somewhere, you
agree, but it doesn't mean thatit's still not in there
somewhere.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
You agree.
Yeah, it's like a subculture ofthe empathy in its own entity.
Yeah, I mean, maybe we'll talkabout this in the gifts of
recovery, but it also becomes acommon language to be able to
help other addicts too.
Down the line, I guess empathyeven gets more pronounced In the
(13:40):
recovery literature.
It talks about being able touniquely helpful to other people
, and I'm very thankful for thattoo, that I got help from the
people who have gone throughwhat I was going through.
So actually we're also beingprepared to be useful to fellow
addicts too.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
It doesn't matter how hellacious, how guilt-ridden,
how shameful the thing thatyou've done in your active
addiction.
The people that are in activerecovery don't look down on you
because they know what that waslike to do that, what it was
like to feel that way, andyou're not alone in that to do
that, what it was like to feelthat way, and you're not alone
(14:18):
in that.
So that is one of the greatestarmor skill sets, tools that we
have.
When we are down and out,people help us and I think that
can be very hard for familymembers and loved ones because
they get to feel all thenegative from it.
But to have grace andcompassion, that person that you
(14:38):
do love, it's in there.
It might be really deep inthere, but, man, if we can have
empathy for their illness, theirsickness, what they're battling
through to try to survive andstay alive because you might not
see it, but guess what they'regiving and feeling empathy when
they're in rehab, their abilityto support each other in that
(15:04):
early recovery process is likenothing I've seen and they feel
like there's these family bondswith their new family members
when their family members arekicking them out of the house,
won't talk to them and they'reout and they see this different
side to them, and just hours anddays after using I mean that
empathy is there.
So it's certainly going tobenefit them in recovery.
(15:28):
To your point, what's the nextone?
This one might be hard tobelieve too.
So brace yourself.
Increased self-awareness.
Tell me more Before peoplecringe and turn off the podcast.
Hear me out.
It takes a lot of drugs to numbout and push down a conscious,
(15:51):
but I've seen so many battleaddiction that have that moment
of clarity, acknowledge thatfear, realize what they're doing
, and it might be there just fora moment, but usually denial
doesn't last for too too longwithout drugs and alcohol, and I
think that's when people tendto get sober, that they have
(16:12):
that awareness.
They know the difference betweenright and wrong awareness.
They know the differencebetween right and wrong.
They might be justifying andrationalizing and lying so they
don't have to feel it.
But, man, when they've got thatand their true self come to
thine, own self, be true, thattrue self comes to the surface,
and it might only be a minute orit might be just a part of a
(16:34):
conversation and an interventionor an active use, but they feel
fear, they feel shame, theyhave that self-awareness.
They do everything they can topush that down so they can keep
doing and living the way they'reliving.
Goodness, I can't tell you howmany people in that crack house,
(16:55):
in that stolen car, in the tent, whatever, wherever, they know
the difference between right orwrong I'd say more than 90% of
the time.
Their actions and what they saymay say differently, but over
the years I see it all the timethey have that self-awareness
(17:16):
and it starts an activeaddiction.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah, that's an interesting spin on it, Because
that's also it's the drive formore using right, Because of
that consciousness, because ofthat self-awareness that keeps
coming up every time you're nothigh.
So yeah, I've never thought ofit that way, but that's an
interesting spin on it, Becausethe more I push it, the more it
comes back.
I feel like that's the natureof the truth too the more I push
(17:41):
the truth away, the stronger itcomes back.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Why is relapse so high?
Because when you stop using andyou can't numb that out
momentarily anymore thatself-awareness of what they did
and what they're feeling is verypresent.
Drugs don't want you to feelthat so you don't change.
They want you to feel guilt andshame and stay there and numb
it out so it can kill you.
(18:06):
But man that vulnerability.
They begin to identify theirpersonal triggers.
They begin to identify what Icall emotional sobriety and then
either numb it out or, becauseof that self-awareness, they
grow from it.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, that really pronounced the idea of a gift.
You know, because people inrecovery knows that awareness,
self-awareness, that becomeskind of like my superpower, that
I need to work with it.
You know, I heard this.
This is one of the dailyreadings that I do in one of the
fellowships that I go to, andthe reading ends with this
quotation which is kind of aspin on what people always says
(18:51):
about the saying usually isdon't just sit, do something
right.
But the saying they use is likedon't do something right, but
the saying they use is likedon't just do something sit.
I feel like that's the trick inrecovery too, like that
self-awareness part, like whenI'm feeling fearful, I'm feeling
uncertain about the future,feeling very confused about the
situation.
That's where thatself-awareness I need to sit
(19:13):
with it.
And then the self-awarenesscomes like what are my values,
what's important for me, andthen the action that I need to
take becomes clear as a resultof that self-awareness and more
integrity.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
So yeah, great point, a positive way, with that
resiliency, with that ability tochange, with that ability to
overcome obstacles and activeaddiction.
Here's another one we overcomeobstacles may lead to more
(19:48):
negative obstacles, but we learnto overcome these things in a
healthy way.
The journey through addictioninvolves numerous challenges,
and successfully navigatingthese can build confidence and a
sense of accomplishment andthat's a gift.
And if we can do that With anegative light, we can certainly
(20:13):
do that in a positive light.
And that's the differencebetween active using and
negativity and stop using.
And then the recovery journey,overcoming obstacles in a
healthy way, and I think some ofthe gifts that we just talked
about the increasedself-awareness, the
vulnerability, the ability tohave empathy for ourselves, the
(20:36):
resiliency, and that's how weovercome obstacles right.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, I'm just coming up with all these sayings, but
whenever we have theseconversations, all these things
that I've learned from all theseconversations come up about,
yeah, obstacles actually becomeslike opportunities right for
growth and yeah, so those wereall kinds of opportunities,
although they seemed likeobstacles, but they're always
(21:03):
opportunities.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And I think it's really clear in active addiction
you might crash and burnrepeatedly and then manage to
adapt and find a way to get highagain.
You might lose your job due toaddiction, but somehow you find
money to use again.
Addiction, but somehow you findmoney to use again.
The ability to navigate throughcrises and think on your feet
and bounce back from failurescan become an invaluable tool
when used for good.
(21:23):
We just use it to get high atany and all costs for survival
and then eventually it goes.
Okay.
This isn't life or death andthis isn't the saying I'm a
mountain out of a molehill whereeverything is chaotic.
Okay, but I can overcomeobstacles and recovery and not
create obstacles that I'movercoming and addiction.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, developing some problem-solving skills.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, I think it's this one no-transcript, not just
(22:19):
dope sick.
Then they get sick like I don'tknow how that happens.
I don't know what happens whensomeone's using heroin, that
they never get sick and they'relike superman or superwoman.
But then they get off it andthey're good through detox and
then their immune system crashes.
But with the mental health it'saffecting our brain and
(22:41):
damaging our brain so much andour ability to cope with
anything, let alone depression,anxiety or stressors, that it
can exacerbate depression,anxiety, bipolar and mania and
schizophrenia and suicidalideation.
But it gives us ability tounderstand the importance of
(23:02):
maintaining mental health andwell-being because we know what
it's like to not have that,especially in active addiction.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah, in a way too, I was striving for my own version
of sanity, my own version ofmental health, kind of like a
self-medication.
So in a weird way it wasn'tworking.
But also that's what I wasstriving for, like to have that
(23:33):
unstable mental health that wasonly sustainable through my drug
of choice, as opposed to real,real sanity, real health, you
know that's sustainableabsolutely well, we hit a little
bit of both, certainly thegifts of addiction.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
We did some countering with what happens
when we're in sobriety andrecovery with it.
Let's highlight a couple more.
Um, do you want to pull up the?
They're literally called thegifts of recovery, aren't they?
When it comes to chemicaldependency, anonymous alcoholics
, anonymous they're these thingsthat they call the promises
(24:14):
will happen when you work thesteps in the 12-step program.
Alcoholics Anonymous has thepromises.
Chemical Dependency has thegifts of recovery.
Let's read the gifts ofrecovery.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
This is where I pick up my 24-hour chip.
Ever in a Chemically DependentAnonymous meeting, cool, and I
went back there to speak andit's just so crazy I guess this
is true about meetings that theyread the same thing since I
came in, but then how they hitme is so different, you know.
So I was hearing the giftsbeing read.
(24:46):
I was like these are the samegifts that I heard 10 years ago,
but they mean so much to me now.
That's good stuff.
So these are the.
I think there are 10 in total,so I'll read all of them.
We live one day at a time withdignity and self-respect.
Number two we replace fear andself-pity with courage and
(25:08):
gratitude.
Three we accept the changes inour life with optimism and hope.
We learn how to lighten up,laugh often and have fun again.
We find that challenges andsetbacks become the touchstones
of spiritual growth.
We discover our talents andgifts and unlock their full
(25:31):
potential.
We experience freedom as weforgive ourselves and others.
We are willing to take risks aswe choose growth over fear.
We develop healthyrelationships as we learn how to
communicate with respect andlove.
We believe that love andservice are the foundation of a
(25:52):
lifetime of happiness as wecontinue on our journey, the
possibilities are endless.
Remember, the sky is the limit,Boy.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
those things are attracting.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, I got to say this, though, that I think you
mentioned this a long, long timeago in one of the episodes
about setting up the conditions.
People use that example offarming, for example I'm just
setting the conditions the soil,watering, sunlight.
I don't make the plants grow.
Something greater makes it grow.
And I feel like it's the samething with the gifts, too.
(26:24):
I was never like, oh, I'm goingto make that gift happen, let
me come up with a plan to makethis gift come into my life, but
it was more like a side effectof all the things that we're
supposed to do as conditions,and these were given to us.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
And I think that's the silver lining right there.
It's a gift.
The silver lining is when weset up the conditions and it may
seem, and is a dark, negativeway, an act of addiction, but,
man, these can transform intojust beautiful gifts of optimism
(26:59):
and hope, self-respect, talentswe get to forgive ourselves and
others, healthy relationships.
I mean.
These are gifts that thesethings transform into when used
for good.
The sense of purpose andmeaning is, I think, maybe one
of the biggest gifts of recoverythat somehow, when we stop
(27:21):
using and lose this need toevolve around this substance
liquid, powder, smoke and thenstop using and align an
intentional way of life, thedesire and need to use is so far
(27:41):
gone and gives us helpingothers through our experience
and through our resiliency andthrough our obstacles, gives us
so much self-improvement, givesus appreciation for life, gives
us purpose and meaning and itstrengthens, identify who we are
and who we're not.
(28:02):
There's no better gift.
I always say I got sober at 20,and the steps in my recovery
journey through support andtreatment and therapy and
spirituality.
I like to think I had aquarter-life crisis at 20.
Through support and treatmentand therapy and spirituality, I
(28:23):
like to think I had aquarter-life crisis at 20, and
these steps helped me withobstacles in my sobriety and
struggles and resiliency thatlife throws at me, I just don't
have to add to it as much as Iused to when I was using and
that's a gift.
That's a gift.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, I feel like I'm a quotation machine tonight,
but another thing that remindsme about the gift is that I have
a therapist that I've beenseeing for a long time and she
always brings that up about.
Tomorrow is worry, is future.
That hasn't happened yet, andyesterday was just like a regret
(29:01):
, guilt, shame.
That has already happened.
But today is a gift, becausethat's why they call it the
present.
That's right.
I love that, true, though yeah,it's so true, it's.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
And if we can live in the present, live in today and
see all these benefits, it's agift, Absolutely.
A lot of this aligns withMaslow's hierarchy of needs.
He calls it kind of likemotivational theory and there's
a few levels, five tiers.
And the first level is the needfor shelter, warmth and food,
(29:36):
and that certainly happens whenpeople stop using that, they're
not on that liquid diet.
All of a sudden the crack housedoesn't seem so glorious.
And then we have the desire andneed for wanting a roof over
our head and we want more safetyand predictability and healthy
control in our lives.
But the last two is esteem.
(29:57):
The fourth level is self-worth,accomplishment, respect for
ourselves and other people, andthat becomes a very important
recovery and I like to align mywill according to the 12 steps
with my higher power's will, andif I can do that then I feel
like I'm going to live a goodway of life.
(30:19):
I'd like to hear your Buddhistperspective on that.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, the metaphor or the saying is maybe it's more
of a translation it's theawakening of the heart, like the
purity of the mind.
Those are the thoughts thatcome to me about aligning one's
will with a higher power's will,because, you know, all these
concepts of compassion,generosity, forgiveness, these
are all what we're made up of.
(30:46):
That is hidden in activeaddiction, but when we are sober
we get to awaken those valuesin us.
So, yeah, that's my take on itin terms of those needs being
met.
But also it becomes moreimportant about the esteem, the
integrity, things that wereactually the essence of our
(31:06):
being right, like the spirit isreally the essence of what we're
made up of, and then we get toreawaken that.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Yeah, it's good.
And the fifth tier, the finaltier, the top of the pyramid, is
self-actualization.
This highest level refers tothe realizations of our own
potential, self-fulfillment,seeking personal growth, peak
experiences.
Some people call it highersense of self, higher purpose,
(31:38):
and I think that's a gift too,that'd be a motivation, that'd
be a guiding factor, doing thatin a healthy way.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah, that's good, that's inspiring Life is about
growth, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
But I stopped that growth in active addiction.
And then some I was dying.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Well, what do you know?
Yeah, but I stopped that growthin active addiction and then
some I was dying.
But what do you think?
Do you think we were able tobalance the gifts of addiction
and the gifts of recovery?
Think we were able to do that?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, yeah, I guess it all comes under the category
of the gifts of the journey ofrecovery, right, yeah, because
recovery already was in themaking in our active addiction,
but sadly that's not true foreveryone.
But at the same time, whoeveris struggling out there, the
journey has begun.
So, yeah, the gifts is veryinclusive of everything that
(32:30):
we've gone through.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yeah, agreed.
As we wrap up today'sdiscussion on the gifts of
addiction and recovery, we hopeyou found value in understanding
both perspectives.
Whether you're navigatingaddiction, walking the path of
recovery, supporting a loved one, we believe that recognizing
these gifts can lead to personalgrowth and transformation.
Not just about overcomingchallenges.
(32:53):
It's about embracing thestrengths and insights that come
from those experiences.
As you move forward, take timeto reflect on your journey and
acknowledge the gifts you'vediscovered along the way.
Don't forget to subscribe toour newsletter for more valuable
insights, practical tips, alongwith exclusive content
throughout the way.
(33:15):
We'd love to hear from you.
Do you have a question orcomment for us or for other
listeners?
We're providing a collectivespace to share collective wisdom
and we think it would beawesome to have you as a part of
an episode.
Remember, we can docollectively what we cannot do
alone.
So please take a moment, textus or email us questions.
If you're listening on yourphone, just pull it up and click
(33:38):
it.
Thank you for joining us.
This is the last episode ofSeason 2.
We're not releasing anyepisodes for the month of August
.
The podcast will be back inSeptember and remember, the path
to recovery and growth isfilled with hidden gifts waiting
to be discovered.
Keep your journey growing.
My name is Luke.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
And this is Zal.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
See ya.
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