March 18, 2024 • 34 mins
Together, we peel back the layers of misconception that obscure the true nature of suffering, delving into the Buddhist concept of 'dukkha'—a term that signifies the complex interplay of internal and external forces in our lives. Our conversation may shift your perspective on suffering, transforming it from a mere obstacle to a catalyst for mindfulness and wise decision-making.
This episode is a journey through the heart of personal growth and self-compassion, where we distinguish between the necessary pains that foster development and the harmful ones that we must learn to avoid. Zaw's insights guide us through the intricacies of life and the process of embracing discomfort as a sign of progress. Discover how different therapy modalities like acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT) can help you navigate physical and emotional pain with grace, committing to a life aligned with your deepest values. Tune in for an enriching experience that offers not just understanding, but a roadmap for resilience in the face of life's challenges.
Please send your questions to: luke@recoverycollectivemd.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Music.
Hey everybody, and welcome backto A Therapist of Buddhist In
you.
Way back in Episode 8, weexplored the controversial
reality of the first noble truth, shedding light on why
(00:20):
suffering is necessary forgrowth and transformation.
Today, we're diving even deeperinto the heart of this topic as
we unravel the complexities ofunderstanding suffering.
Suffering, or dukkha, is afundamental human experience
that uniquely touches us, buthow do we genuinely understand
suffering?
Is there a right or wrong wayto approach it?
(00:43):
These are the questions we'llbe exploring today.
Join us as we navigate thelabyrinth of human experience,
uncovering the nuances ofsuffering and its significance
in our lives.
Whether you see clarity, wisdomor a deeper understanding of the
human condition, this episodeis crafted with you in mind and,
hey, if you're finding value inour conversations, remember to
(01:04):
hit that like button, subscribeto our channel and share it with
others who might benefit.
We can collectively do what wecan't do alone.
We are here today because ofthe recovery collective of a
true holistic and integrativeoffice in Annapolis, maryland,
and if you want some individualtime with myself and Zoll, you
can catch us there too,professionally.
Now, zoll, before we dive intoinsights rooted in this monastic
(01:27):
and sutta understanding thatyou can very well articulate, of
this first noble truth.
Let's first explore some ofthese misconceptions or common
misunderstandings about thenature of suffering.
So let's start there, shall we?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Sounds good.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
So your perspective as a Buddhist practitioner?
One misconception that we oftensee when it comes to the truce
of suffering is that sufferingis solely caused by external
circumstances.
Tell me more, will you?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, before anything , it is quite a topic and I
think I said the same thing whenwe did the episode on this one
first time about the nobletruths aria.
This aria is like the nobleones.
These are the truths to berealized by the noble ones.
It's quite a task.
But I also wanted to mentionthat Buddhism, in my experience,
(02:26):
or just Buddhism in general, isnot theoretical, it's practical
, experiential.
So these truths are not to belike lecture or to be explained,
but to be like explore and tobe experienced.
So I will be approaching fromthat point of view.
I do have a little bit ofbackground with monastic
training back in Burma, but whatI will be sharing will be
(02:49):
coming mostly from my ownpractice and also my own
experience.
Just wanted to begin with thaton the topic of doka.
But also I have a little bit ofexperience.
I'm always going to be astudent, so I keep learning
about things and I also treatBuddhism as philosophy as well.
Things are very logicalcause-effect.
(03:09):
There will be a little bit ofelement of that too.
But yeah, going back to thatfirst question of misconception
that doka is all external, Idon't think it is a complete
misconception, but it is.
Something is missing when wemake a statement like that.
So I would say it is bothexternal and internal.
(03:31):
When there is suffering and theword is doka, the noble truth
of suffering and the way theyanalyze or the meaning of the
word, the way they break down.
Doka means like something thatis difficult and ka is like to
endure.
So difficult to endure is alsoanother translation of it.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Well, when we look at it that way, I think external
circumstances can sometimes bedifficult to endure.
I think these external factorscan contribute to suffering and
I think our suffering stems froma lot of our internal reactions
and interpretations of our lifecircumstances or external
(04:15):
things that happen to usAnything.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
But it's not solely caused by it.
I think I'm really good atjustifying my frustration
towards the external factorsthat contribute to my suffering
or pain.
I know we had a whole episodeon suffering, but that word
itself can have a negativeconnotation, so just judge upon
(04:39):
that before we continue.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, I kind of want to relate this with mindfulness
too is that the first truthcreates some kind of alertness
and urgency and, in a way thatyou know, if we think about doka
as a way of things beingimpermanent, things being very
difficult to endure, it createsthe motivation and the urgency
(05:03):
to be mindful and to be wiseabout decisions that I'm making.
Throughout the day, there issuffering.
That means that things arealways changing you know, so
like that's the rightunderstanding.
And also not right understandingis that taking what is unstable
to be stable.
So if I'm seeing a river, ifit's flowing, if it's very
(05:25):
smooth, I will notice it, but ifI drop a flower into the river,
I realize that it just gottaken away.
So as soon as I see that, Iwill be more careful that
whatever is there isdisappearing in the moment.
So for me that creates anurgency and the motivation to
practice the practices ofmindfulness.
(05:46):
Whatever I'm thinking aboutright now is either going to
contribute to more suffering orless suffering, or no more
suffering.
For me that's a good dailypractice, that whenever I'm
feeling anger, it just doesn'tcome out of nowhere, it's as a
result of something that'salready built up.
So my job is to be aware of itbefore it gets to that point.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Do you think anger always leads to more suffering
or no suffering?
What do you think about that?
Because, as a therapist, ourthoughts, beliefs, emotions all
can contribute to our experience, obviously.
So by understanding andaddressing some of our internal
reactions or feelings, it canimpact our feelings.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, I think it does lead to more suffering.
I'm thinking of, like a reallife example, not really an
anger, more of a frustration.
You know, when I'm with my kids, for example, by myself, when I
get frustrated it comes fromsomething else prior to that.
It doesn't come out of nowhere.
So, yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
I think anger can be a form of pain, which can be a
form of suffering.
So feeling anger can certainlycontribute to more discomfort or
suffering, whether it'sphilosophical or your Buddhist
perspective.
When is there a benefit to thattype of suffering, anger?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Is there a benefit to the suffering of anger?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, I asked when is there?
But depends on how you look atit.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Yeah, anger is about not wanting.
Right, when I'm angry, it'sabout not wanting.
I don't want this situation, Idon't like this.
No, no, no.
And yeah, there is lesscalmness, there is anger.
Yeah, I guess maybe we can kindof look deeper into the
understanding part.
So I think anger is a goodexample.
In Buddhist philosophy, anykind of negative feelings comes
(07:48):
from three roots, like treeroots.
Those roots are hatred, greedand delusion.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
So when those three things I can relate to all three
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, so like when I'm angry or if somebody is in
anger, there is a sense ofdelusion, like not seeing things
clearly.
So it's more important to calmdown first before understanding.
So for me that would be theright mindfulness in that moment
to let go of the anger first.
I cannot look at it.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So Because it's a heightened state, it can distort
other thoughts.
Yeah, okay, yeah, I'm following.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
But then the understanding part might not
come right away in that moment,but only after calming down.
I can reflect or try to be morepresent next time that there is
always cause and effect.
There is a cause for that anger.
So the right understandingwould be Do have a better
understanding of.
Maybe practically speaking, forme it can be a better planning,
(08:50):
or like meals or spending theenergy going out somewhere, like
those decisions could have beenmade.
So it prepares me for a bettertime next time.
So I think that kind of is abenefit in terms of I don't want
to feel this anger again, Idon't want to feel this
frustration again.
It motivates me to have abetter understanding of how it
(09:12):
all happened, which also createsroom for less anger or more
calm next time.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, that's good, and I think we can just look at
anger, how we touched upon, howour thoughts, our beliefs, our
attitudes and our emotionstowards anger can all contribute
to our experience of suffering,like you're saying of the three
roots.
But by understanding andaddressing our internal
reactions we can often mitigatethat impact.
(09:42):
We were talking about theexternal stressors that impact
our anger or whatever form ofsuffering we're feeling.
To me, you're explaining a wayto cultivate a greater
resilience to face adversity andanger and emotions.
That's what I'm hearing.
So I really tried to keep itsimple with misunderstandings
(10:02):
and misconceptions, and we wentdeep already.
Let's go to the next one.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Okay, what's the next one?
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Another misconception suffering is permanent and
unchangeable.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
That's a good one, because that really is
contradictory to the true natureof suffering, that the true
nature of suffering is thatthings are impermanent.
That's also what creates thesuffering.
So it is wrong, or it is amisconception, to think that
it's going to be like thisforever.
I'm in pain and I'm going to bein pain forever, for the rest
(10:37):
of my life or even more pain.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
If you feel, whether it's psychological, even
physical pain especiallypsychological and emotional pain
is permanent and unchangeable,please go to therapy.
Please go see Zolf orBuddhist-inspired life coaching
or meditation coaching, becausethat is bleak to believe and
(11:05):
feel that psychological andemotional pain is permanent and
unchangeable.
I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Oh, that's part of the reasonwhy we do the work that we do as
therapists and a Buddhistinspired coaching that you do
that.
This too shall pass.
I'm having a wonderful day.
It's great to have.
This too shall pass.
I'm having a horrible day.
(11:26):
This too shall pass.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, that speaks so well with the Dukka concept,
because not seeing the truth isthe Dukka, is the suffering.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Say that again.
Not seeing the truth is thesuffering Interesting.
I like that.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
So I'm doing things that I think will make me happy,
and that is suffering becauseit's not true.
So, like dismantling that,dispelling that it really is the
freedom.
Yeah, in a way like this, thisis a really good segue, kind of
misconception, because the fournoble truths, it cannot be
(12:03):
separated, you know, they're allinterdependent.
It's also very empowering in away that, because the fourth one
ends with responsibility, likecultivating, you know, finding
the path, they're all linkedtogether as cause and effect too
, because the second truth isthe root, the cause of the
suffering, and then the thirdtruth is, like, the possibility
(12:25):
of the cessation of thesuffering, and then the fourth
is the path, you know, thecultivation of the path.
So, like, when we see this kindof suffering, it's actually
empowering in a way that what doI do to see the truth?
Speaker 1 (12:43):
My therapist's mind right the right tools and
support.
Suffering is transient.
Suffering is subject to change.
That if we navigate and findways to alleviate their
suffering over time.
And the fourth one is what'sthe action to take?
Yeah, but yeah, please, please,please, please, don't sit on
(13:06):
that suffering by yourself.
Another misconception you ready.
Suffering should be avoided atall cost.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
That's not the reality is it.
Yeah, I don't know how you cameup with these misconceptions.
These are really good touchpoints, especially this one,
because it's very yeah, we cantalk about it, but like I think
it will be good to it mightsound very subtle, but it's also
important like there's a senseof intuition that I'm going to
(13:40):
avoid danger, you know.
So the suffering that we'retalking about is different.
So, like, if I'm going to be ina place where there's going to
be fire, you know that issuffering and I need to avoid
that.
That's not the suffering thatwe're talking about.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Common sense should not be avoided at all cost okay.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah.
Or if I'm in a relationshipthat is like causing me so much
pain.
You know that is to be endure,you know.
So like that's where the rightunderstanding and the you know,
wisdom and seeing the clarity ofthe situation helps, so like
it's not something to you knowsuffering, as in that I got to
(14:16):
endure it and don't leave at all, you know.
But it's more about creatingroom for taking the wise action
for that.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, oh, love is painful.
No, love is not painful.
Toxic relationships areunhealthy boundaries, unhealthy
coping skills, miscommunicationall that can be painful, but
love is not painful, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
But the subtle other truth which I like about this
misconception, which is thepoint that you're making, or the
implication, is that there arecertain situations that I did
not avoid, that was suffering,but helped me grow.
So, like for those situations,if I would have avoided it out
of fear, out of like I don'twant to take a risk, I would
(14:57):
have not grown up.
You know that those are thethings that actually help you
grow.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
And I think you said this earlier not only avoiding
it.
It may prevent me from the lackof growth, but might create
more suffering in the long runif we avoid some sum and context
things.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, I think slowly.
Yeah, I like thesemisconceptions because it's
slowly bringing to the, you know, mundane level, not the super,
a super mundane when it comes tosuffering, because we're also
touching on like discomfort orpain or stress, like anything,
because it's not pessimistic.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, I think of.
It's not complete opposites,but the thought that comes to my
mind with this one is selfcompassion.
Treating ourselves withkindness and understanding
during times of suffering ishard to do because I don't.
I try to avoid discomfort, Itry to avoid pain, psychological
(16:02):
, emotional.
So, having self compassion withthe understanding that we're
going through some form ofdukkha Touch on that, oh yeah,
self compassion piece.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, I love that topic.
The self compassion is that Iguess in the 12 step programs or
just what I've heard, is aboutfeel the feelings, you know, so
I can feel the misery withoutbeing miserable.
To me, it's also selfcompassion that if I'm in a
(16:33):
situation that makes me sad, ofcourse I'll be sad.
There's so much freedom inallowing myself to feel that,
and that to me, is like a selfconception.
As opposed to that.
Why am I feeling this way?
I don't want to feel this, butthen that's actually the
opposite of being kind to myself, so like, of course you're sad
because it's a sad situation,but then at the same time, it
(16:53):
empowers you to realize that ohyeah, you know things happen.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, I often have clients with unhealthy coping
skills and they break throughsome of those, maybe to a level
of denial or justification orrationalization, and they're
really feeling it, and one wayto look at it is lean into the
discomfort.
Well, another way to look at itis I get to help them, empower
them to have some selfcompassion for a big paradigm
(17:23):
shift, an arc, a behavior, achange in their life that is
uncomfortable to do and havingself compassion and not beating
themselves up for man.
I can't believe I'm doing thisbehavior or I've dealt with this
thing in my life for so long.
Having that self compassion is,to me, leaning into the
discomfort and giving yourselfthat grace and that hyper
(17:46):
awareness and realization tomake those changes through that
pain.
Suffering To me in thetherapist chair is like oh,
they're making progress.
The awareness and the feeling,the feelings and having the
compassion and grace throughthat is kind of like the crux
for a lot of people.
(18:06):
But if you relate it to whatwe're talking about today, it's,
like you said, a form of growth.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, compassion in Buddhist philosophy is also
something that creates actionright away, because the word is
gharuna.
That the compassion is atranslation for that word,
gharuna, which sometimes can betranslated as like the quivering
of the heart.
When I'm compassionate, if I'mlike not feeling it or if I
(18:34):
don't want to do anything aboutit, it's me getting in the way.
So true compassion creates likekind thoughts or actions.
It creates the action.
The action parts come.
So like when I see somebodywho's getting beaten, the
compassion part would be to gohelp the person.
But then if I feel thecompassion and if I'm kind of
avoiding it, that means you knowit's not true compassion.
(18:56):
You know, because one of theprayer or the setting intention
for compassion practices may Ilearn to understand the
suffering or, yeah, may I learnto care about suffering.
There's an aspect of caring.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
It's a greater emotional resilience as a result
.
I think being with those thatfull range and spectrum of
feelings, that's good.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah, so yeah, avoidance.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Yeah, as a therapist I often do that kind of
restructuring, identifying andchallenging negative or
unhelpful beliefs aboutsuffering.
Oh, I shouldn't be feeling thisor challenging that belief
system is we talked about itdetrimental?
So therapy can really helpindividuals reframe their
thoughts and develop a morebalanced and realistic
perspective on the reality ofwhat they're going through.
(19:49):
All suffering.
That's kind of what you'rehitting on Great.
Next, one Another misconceptionSuffering indicates personal
weakness or failure.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
That's a cognitive restructure right there.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Hmm, yeah, that somehow is related to the
self-compassion piece thatyou're talking about that when
I'm suffering, one of the goodantidote for that is oh, this is
a human feeling.
Everybody else goes throughthis.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Let's, let's the listeners absorb what you just
said.
Suffering is a universallyhuman experience.
Everyone goes through it.
Now, marketing, social media,all these things may prevent
signs of challenges orweaknesses or people always show
(20:39):
their best foot forward and andshow that.
But every human beinguniversally experiences
suffering.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Hmm, yeah, yeah, I'm seeing all these misconceptions
that you're describing as veryempowering.
You know, especially this onetoo, is that if I truly believe
that, that if I'm in a placewhere I feel the pain, I feel
the weakness, you know, theshame, or like, oh yeah, I'm not
good enough, all these things,but if I truly believe that
(21:10):
other people goes through thattoo, that creates room for hope.
You know, that means that ifI'm seeing other people who are
like doing really well, thatmeans they've gone through what
I'm going through and they madeit through.
You know, like there's thatunity, some kind of uniting
force, like when I have thathuman experience, as opposed to,
(21:32):
oh, maybe I'm the only onewho's feeling this, I'm not
strong enough.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Part of our human condition is not to be perfect.
Part of our condition of beinghuman is an opportunity to learn
personal development, and oftenthat is through discomfort.
In my experience, pain is uh.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Growth is uncomfortable.
That's what I've heard of.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of times a little majority, but
certainly a lot of times it isyeah, and normalizing that,
normalizing the normal, havingthe word, I think, in America,
suffering I love the Buddhistapproach to suffering, you know,
(22:18):
and just working with you inthis podcast, understanding it
and not this, this supernegative connotation type ways,
is certainly helpful to me too.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yeah, nothing is personal.
It's not personal.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
So question for you, Zao.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
How do we know when we understand true suffering?
How do we know, talking aboutthese misconceptions, these few
points, but how do we know whenwe're truly understanding
whatever, quote unquote truesuffering is Maybe.
That's a maybe that's asuffering, question that I just
(22:56):
made up in my head.
How are we going to know?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
I think that's a great question and somebody who
can answer very clearly andconfidently.
Do that question is already onthe path towards the end of the
enlightenment because, because Ithink so you're there with me,
I think, the use of the word.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Mountain in the path.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I think that the, the keyword that you're using in
that question, is the trueunderstanding.
You know so, like the, the, thenew truth, yeah, and then one
of the factors of the AFO pathis also right understanding,
right view.
So like when something is, whenI see the truth, like that's
(23:39):
already have created, that'salready paved the path towards
the, the end of suffering.
You know so.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
So, yeah, I, I, I don't want to dodge that
question, but the joys and thejourney, even when it's not so
joyful.
It's not where we're going,it's how we get there, and part
of that is growth throughchallenges and discomfort and
suffering.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Yeah, Maybe there there are different levels, but
I think I do want to answer tothat question in terms of like
something welcoming andsomething hopeful, that
understanding I think it's alsorelated to wisdom in a way to it
creates more freedom, moreawareness.
The example that I was thinkingabout was like fire, for
example.
(24:27):
When I don't have anunderstanding of fire, it's
something to be afraid of,something that is destructive,
but then when I understand fire,or when human being understand
fire, we can hone the energy,use it to our benefit.
Suffering can be like anysituation that we don't
understand, but when we gainunderstanding, we make a good
(24:47):
use out of it.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Alright, let's crank this up a notch.
We're talking aboutpsychological and emotional
forms of suffering and howexternal factors have effect our
life and suffering.
What about something reallyphysical Pain?
How can this noble truth helpus with something Like physical
(25:16):
pain?
There's a lot of people outthere with chronic pain.
As a Buddhist practitioner,what kind of things can you do
to help them?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, that's a tough question because I have no
personal experience with that,so I don't want to answer it in
a way that is not relatable, youknow, because I know there are
people out there who are goingthrough physical pain, either
through old age or accident orwhatever unfortunate
(25:49):
circumstances there be.
But what I can relate to ispeople talk a lot about when
you're practicing meditation fora long time, pain physical pain
is something to be observed aswell.
So there is a training for that.
Again, this is like seeingthings as they are Is it the
(26:11):
true discomfort, true pain, oris it my mind creating it?
So that would be a goodclarifying or verification kind
of question to when there is aphysical pain, Is the pain
really there?
If the answer is yes, I can bekind to myself or I can take
(26:31):
medication or go see a doctor asopposed to wait.
Is this really the pain or am Ijust making a big deal out of
it?
So there is thatself-assessment, self-honesty
question.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
And there's some truth with that when it comes to
therapy and chronic pain, whereoften people with chronic pain,
they almost have like atraumatic expanse, so that fight
flight psychologically in thethoughts, which can certainly
enhance emotionally andbehaviorally the sensation and
(27:04):
all aspects of our self andenhance the suffering, one form
of therapy called acceptance andcommitment therapy, act.
Now, mind you, pain is on aspectrum.
It's very personal and thisisn't true for everyone what Zal
and I are saying, but for somepeople.
I'll break down the ACT, theacceptance and commitment
(27:25):
therapy, a little bit more.
It really emphasizes, like Zalyou're saying, acceptance of
difficult thoughts and emotionswhile committing to actions
aligned with one's values andreally helping individuals
develop psychologicalflexibility and resilience in
the face of it.
So what do I mean by that?
The ACT in action could involvea person struggling with
(27:47):
chronic pain.
Instead of trying to suppressor avoid the pain, like we
mentioned earlier, we often leadto increased distress and
suffering.
Act encourages a form ofacceptance of the pain as, let's
say, a natural part of life.
Hey, we know there's this paineither in the forefront, in the
back front of my mind.
Well, there's got to be someacceptance with it and I can I
(28:12):
guess I'm saying this wordintentionally cripple us, or it
can help us.
Okay, how can we learn to bemindful and aware, using
techniques to observe the painwithout judgment, for example?
Okay, how do I not become angryor fearful of this pain and
recognize that it does notdefine my entire existence?
(28:35):
And I can still learn how tomanage and function in some ways
with this pain.
That's hard, that's going totake meditation techniques,
that's going to take therapy fora lot of people and for a lot
of people, other forms of painmanagement to do so.
But this is showing us that,despite experiencing pain, the
(28:58):
person may value spendingquality time with their loved
ones or pursuing meaningful workor engaging in hobbies and
interests, and throughacceptance and commitment
therapy, they learn to commit toactions that align with these
values, even in the presence ofpain.
Yeah that makes me a lot there.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yeah, I follow and that makes me think about, like
the mind in general, thatthoughts are being created
whether I allow it or not.
So that concept of mindfulnessas a gatekeeper is really a key
that I'm in a lot of pain rightnow as a result.
(29:37):
Thoughts are being created andthen, based on that thought, I'm
creating more thoughts.
So mindfulness part is thatwait, is this?
It's not helping me you know, ifit does, let me cultivate more
of that.
But if it doesn't discard that,think about something else.
So like that to me is a goodchallenge about am I watering
the bed seats or am I wateringthe good seats, kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I can't tell you how many people in the first three
to six days of detox, when inthe residential place and they
could sweat and shake and bakein their bed, physically,
emotionally, feel worse andworse than psychologically try
to convince themselves, no, Idon't want to be here, I don't
want to be sick, I don't want tobe in pain, and a lot of them
accepted my nudge.
(30:19):
To well, you can be sick andget worse in bed even though
you're detoxing in your own somecomfort meds.
We can go to group and getoutside of your head in a
healthy way and it's amazing thepower that that had, that they
committed to taking into actionand being around other people
and different thoughts thatweren't just their own, negative
(30:40):
, intrusive, ridden withaddiction and fear and lack of
commitment to this process, is aform of act and into action.
Yeah, now they suffered just alittle bit less with the help of
others and getting outside ofthem and seeing amen, I was
there just five days ago hangingthere.
(31:01):
That's a form of acceptance andcommitment.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Another question for you what do you think these
listeners can do?
All to employ and develop adeeper understanding of
suffering and its role inpersonal growth or
transformation.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, I don't know what you say, because it's
completely related to meditationpractice.
That's what I like aboutBuddhism that the more I learn,
or if I'm truly learning, italso creates more motivation for
a consistent meditationpractice, I think, for on a
daily basis, the thing that tobe mindful of I think we've
(31:46):
touched on this in other aspectsit's about how important today
is, how precious today is, solike.
Another aspect of suffering isthat things are changing.
This moment is irreplaceable,that it's not going to be
created again.
That's also that analogy of theriver thing that when the river
is flowing, each moment ispassing by.
(32:06):
So that, to me, is the firstnoble truth too, that things are
impermanent, always changing,which creates the urgency to be
more present in today, sufferingnot in like oh yeah, I have a
headache, suffering as in I lostsomebody, but as in that as
soon as I wake up, I'm like oh,today is a series of moment, of
(32:30):
leading moments like how do Imake the best out of it?
I think that's a good practicaluse of the first noble truth
that I try to remember, and Ithink that's something to impart
to the listeners too, if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, it's good, it's real good.
We got anything else.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
We can definitely do another series on this topic.
We cannot avoid Doka.
We'll come back to it in anyother way.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Doka.
I think I'm just gonna startwalking around again.
Ah, Doka, Doka.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
People do say that a lot like in Brahma.
Yeah, okay, doka.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Doka Makes perfect sense Serenity now.
Well, as we conclude ourexploration of the nature of
suffering, we hope you've gainedvaluable insights from a
Buddhist and therapist'sperspectives.
Remember, suffering is aninevitable part of the human
experience, but how we relate toit can profoundly shape our
(33:30):
lives.
By cultivating mindfulness,compassion and acceptance, we
can develop greater resilienceand wisdom in the face of
adversity.
Embracing suffering as anopportunity for growth and
transformation allows us to livemore fully and authentically.
Someone wise once said it ispossible to live happily in the
present moment.
It is the only moment we have.
(33:53):
So thank you for joining us onthis journey and may you find
peace and liberation amidstlives and inevitable challenges.
And we'd appreciate it if youlike and subscribe.
My name is Luke and this is Zao.
Have a good day and we'll seeyou next time.
See you next time, take care.
Music.
Hey everybody, and welcome backto A Therapist of Buddhist In
you.
Way back in Episode 8, weexplored the controversial
reality of the first noble truth, shedding light on why
(00:20):
suffering is necessary forgrowth and transformation.
Today, we're diving even deeperinto the heart of this topic as
we unravel the complexities ofunderstanding suffering.
Suffering, or dukkha, is afundamental human experience
that uniquely touches us, buthow do we genuinely understand
suffering?
Is there a right or wrong wayto approach it?
(00:43):
These are the questions we'llbe exploring today.
Join us as we navigate thelabyrinth of human experience,
uncovering the nuances ofsuffering and its significance
in our lives.
Whether you see clarity, wisdomor a deeper understanding of the
human condition, this episodeis crafted with you in mind and,
hey, if you're finding value inour conversations, remember to
(01:04):
hit that like button, subscribeto our channel and share it with
others who might benefit.
We can collectively do what wecan't do alone.
We are here today because ofthe recovery collective of a
true holistic and integrativeoffice in Annapolis, maryland,
and if you want some individualtime with myself and Zoll, you
can catch us there too,professionally.
Now, zoll, before we dive intoinsights rooted in this monastic
(01:27):
and sutta understanding thatyou can very well articulate, of
this first noble truth.
Let's first explore some ofthese misconceptions or common
misunderstandings about thenature of suffering.
So let's start there, shall we?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Sounds good.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
So your perspective as a Buddhist practitioner?
One misconception that we oftensee when it comes to the truce
of suffering is that sufferingis solely caused by external
circumstances.
Tell me more, will you?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, before anything , it is quite a topic and I
think I said the same thing whenwe did the episode on this one
first time about the nobletruths aria.
This aria is like the nobleones.
These are the truths to berealized by the noble ones.
It's quite a task.
But I also wanted to mentionthat Buddhism, in my experience,
(02:26):
or just Buddhism in general, isnot theoretical, it's practical
, experiential.
So these truths are not to belike lecture or to be explained,
but to be like explore and tobe experienced.
So I will be approaching fromthat point of view.
I do have a little bit ofbackground with monastic
training back in Burma, but whatI will be sharing will be
(02:49):
coming mostly from my ownpractice and also my own
experience.
Just wanted to begin with thaton the topic of doka.
But also I have a little bit ofexperience.
I'm always going to be astudent, so I keep learning
about things and I also treatBuddhism as philosophy as well.
Things are very logicalcause-effect.
(03:09):
There will be a little bit ofelement of that too.
But yeah, going back to thatfirst question of misconception
that doka is all external, Idon't think it is a complete
misconception, but it is.
Something is missing when wemake a statement like that.
So I would say it is bothexternal and internal.
(03:31):
When there is suffering and theword is doka, the noble truth
of suffering and the way theyanalyze or the meaning of the
word, the way they break down.
Doka means like something thatis difficult and ka is like to
endure.
So difficult to endure is alsoanother translation of it.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Well, when we look at it that way, I think external
circumstances can sometimes bedifficult to endure.
I think these external factorscan contribute to suffering and
I think our suffering stems froma lot of our internal reactions
and interpretations of our lifecircumstances or external
(04:15):
things that happen to usAnything.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
But it's not solely caused by it.
I think I'm really good atjustifying my frustration
towards the external factorsthat contribute to my suffering
or pain.
I know we had a whole episodeon suffering, but that word
itself can have a negativeconnotation, so just judge upon
(04:39):
that before we continue.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, I kind of want to relate this with mindfulness
too is that the first truthcreates some kind of alertness
and urgency and, in a way thatyou know, if we think about doka
as a way of things beingimpermanent, things being very
difficult to endure, it createsthe motivation and the urgency
(05:03):
to be mindful and to be wiseabout decisions that I'm making.
Throughout the day, there issuffering.
That means that things arealways changing you know, so
like that's the rightunderstanding.
And also not right understandingis that taking what is unstable
to be stable.
So if I'm seeing a river, ifit's flowing, if it's very
(05:25):
smooth, I will notice it, but ifI drop a flower into the river,
I realize that it just gottaken away.
So as soon as I see that, Iwill be more careful that
whatever is there isdisappearing in the moment.
So for me that creates anurgency and the motivation to
practice the practices ofmindfulness.
(05:46):
Whatever I'm thinking aboutright now is either going to
contribute to more suffering orless suffering, or no more
suffering.
For me that's a good dailypractice, that whenever I'm
feeling anger, it just doesn'tcome out of nowhere, it's as a
result of something that'salready built up.
So my job is to be aware of itbefore it gets to that point.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Do you think anger always leads to more suffering
or no suffering?
What do you think about that?
Because, as a therapist, ourthoughts, beliefs, emotions all
can contribute to our experience, obviously.
So by understanding andaddressing some of our internal
reactions or feelings, it canimpact our feelings.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, I think it does lead to more suffering.
I'm thinking of, like a reallife example, not really an
anger, more of a frustration.
You know, when I'm with my kids, for example, by myself, when I
get frustrated it comes fromsomething else prior to that.
It doesn't come out of nowhere.
So, yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
I think anger can be a form of pain, which can be a
form of suffering.
So feeling anger can certainlycontribute to more discomfort or
suffering, whether it'sphilosophical or your Buddhist
perspective.
When is there a benefit to thattype of suffering, anger?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Is there a benefit to the suffering of anger?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, I asked when is there?
But depends on how you look atit.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Yeah, anger is about not wanting.
Right, when I'm angry, it'sabout not wanting.
I don't want this situation, Idon't like this.
No, no, no.
And yeah, there is lesscalmness, there is anger.
Yeah, I guess maybe we can kindof look deeper into the
understanding part.
So I think anger is a goodexample.
In Buddhist philosophy, anykind of negative feelings comes
(07:48):
from three roots, like treeroots.
Those roots are hatred, greedand delusion.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
So when those three things I can relate to all three
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, so like when I'm angry or if somebody is in
anger, there is a sense ofdelusion, like not seeing things
clearly.
So it's more important to calmdown first before understanding.
So for me that would be theright mindfulness in that moment
to let go of the anger first.
I cannot look at it.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So Because it's a heightened state, it can distort
other thoughts.
Yeah, okay, yeah, I'm following.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
But then the understanding part might not
come right away in that moment,but only after calming down.
I can reflect or try to be morepresent next time that there is
always cause and effect.
There is a cause for that anger.
So the right understandingwould be Do have a better
understanding of.
Maybe practically speaking, forme it can be a better planning,
(08:50):
or like meals or spending theenergy going out somewhere, like
those decisions could have beenmade.
So it prepares me for a bettertime next time.
So I think that kind of is abenefit in terms of I don't want
to feel this anger again, Idon't want to feel this
frustration again.
It motivates me to have abetter understanding of how it
(09:12):
all happened, which also createsroom for less anger or more
calm next time.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, that's good, and I think we can just look at
anger, how we touched upon, howour thoughts, our beliefs, our
attitudes and our emotionstowards anger can all contribute
to our experience of suffering,like you're saying of the three
roots.
But by understanding andaddressing our internal
reactions we can often mitigatethat impact.
(09:42):
We were talking about theexternal stressors that impact
our anger or whatever form ofsuffering we're feeling.
To me, you're explaining a wayto cultivate a greater
resilience to face adversity andanger and emotions.
That's what I'm hearing.
So I really tried to keep itsimple with misunderstandings
(10:02):
and misconceptions, and we wentdeep already.
Let's go to the next one.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Okay, what's the next one?
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Another misconception suffering is permanent and
unchangeable.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
That's a good one, because that really is
contradictory to the true natureof suffering, that the true
nature of suffering is thatthings are impermanent.
That's also what creates thesuffering.
So it is wrong, or it is amisconception, to think that
it's going to be like thisforever.
I'm in pain and I'm going to bein pain forever, for the rest
(10:37):
of my life or even more pain.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
If you feel, whether it's psychological, even
physical pain especiallypsychological and emotional pain
is permanent and unchangeable,please go to therapy.
Please go see Zolf orBuddhist-inspired life coaching
or meditation coaching, becausethat is bleak to believe and
(11:05):
feel that psychological andemotional pain is permanent and
unchangeable.
I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Oh, that's part of the reasonwhy we do the work that we do as
therapists and a Buddhistinspired coaching that you do
that.
This too shall pass.
I'm having a wonderful day.
It's great to have.
This too shall pass.
I'm having a horrible day.
(11:26):
This too shall pass.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, that speaks so well with the Dukka concept,
because not seeing the truth isthe Dukka, is the suffering.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Say that again.
Not seeing the truth is thesuffering Interesting.
I like that.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
So I'm doing things that I think will make me happy,
and that is suffering becauseit's not true.
So, like dismantling that,dispelling that it really is the
freedom.
Yeah, in a way like this, thisis a really good segue, kind of
misconception, because the fournoble truths, it cannot be
(12:03):
separated, you know, they're allinterdependent.
It's also very empowering in away that, because the fourth one
ends with responsibility, likecultivating, you know, finding
the path, they're all linkedtogether as cause and effect too
, because the second truth isthe root, the cause of the
suffering, and then the thirdtruth is, like, the possibility
(12:25):
of the cessation of thesuffering, and then the fourth
is the path, you know, thecultivation of the path.
So, like, when we see this kindof suffering, it's actually
empowering in a way that what doI do to see the truth?
Speaker 1 (12:43):
My therapist's mind right the right tools and
support.
Suffering is transient.
Suffering is subject to change.
That if we navigate and findways to alleviate their
suffering over time.
And the fourth one is what'sthe action to take?
Yeah, but yeah, please, please,please, please, don't sit on
(13:06):
that suffering by yourself.
Another misconception you ready.
Suffering should be avoided atall cost.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
That's not the reality is it.
Yeah, I don't know how you cameup with these misconceptions.
These are really good touchpoints, especially this one,
because it's very yeah, we cantalk about it, but like I think
it will be good to it mightsound very subtle, but it's also
important like there's a senseof intuition that I'm going to
(13:40):
avoid danger, you know.
So the suffering that we'retalking about is different.
So, like, if I'm going to be ina place where there's going to
be fire, you know that issuffering and I need to avoid
that.
That's not the suffering thatwe're talking about.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Common sense should not be avoided at all cost okay.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah.
Or if I'm in a relationshipthat is like causing me so much
pain.
You know that is to be endure,you know.
So like that's where the rightunderstanding and the you know,
wisdom and seeing the clarity ofthe situation helps, so like
it's not something to you knowsuffering, as in that I got to
(14:16):
endure it and don't leave at all, you know.
But it's more about creatingroom for taking the wise action
for that.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, oh, love is painful.
No, love is not painful.
Toxic relationships areunhealthy boundaries, unhealthy
coping skills, miscommunicationall that can be painful, but
love is not painful, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
But the subtle other truth which I like about this
misconception, which is thepoint that you're making, or the
implication, is that there arecertain situations that I did
not avoid, that was suffering,but helped me grow.
So, like for those situations,if I would have avoided it out
of fear, out of like I don'twant to take a risk, I would
(14:57):
have not grown up.
You know that those are thethings that actually help you
grow.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
And I think you said this earlier not only avoiding
it.
It may prevent me from the lackof growth, but might create
more suffering in the long runif we avoid some sum and context
things.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, I think slowly.
Yeah, I like thesemisconceptions because it's
slowly bringing to the, you know, mundane level, not the super,
a super mundane when it comes tosuffering, because we're also
touching on like discomfort orpain or stress, like anything,
because it's not pessimistic.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, I think of.
It's not complete opposites,but the thought that comes to my
mind with this one is selfcompassion.
Treating ourselves withkindness and understanding
during times of suffering ishard to do because I don't.
I try to avoid discomfort, Itry to avoid pain, psychological
(16:02):
, emotional.
So, having self compassion withthe understanding that we're
going through some form ofdukkha Touch on that, oh yeah,
self compassion piece.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, I love that topic.
The self compassion is that Iguess in the 12 step programs or
just what I've heard, is aboutfeel the feelings, you know, so
I can feel the misery withoutbeing miserable.
To me, it's also selfcompassion that if I'm in a
(16:33):
situation that makes me sad, ofcourse I'll be sad.
There's so much freedom inallowing myself to feel that,
and that to me, is like a selfconception.
As opposed to that.
Why am I feeling this way?
I don't want to feel this, butthen that's actually the
opposite of being kind to myself, so like, of course you're sad
because it's a sad situation,but then at the same time, it
(16:53):
empowers you to realize that ohyeah, you know things happen.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, I often have clients with unhealthy coping
skills and they break throughsome of those, maybe to a level
of denial or justification orrationalization, and they're
really feeling it, and one wayto look at it is lean into the
discomfort.
Well, another way to look at itis I get to help them, empower
them to have some selfcompassion for a big paradigm
(17:23):
shift, an arc, a behavior, achange in their life that is
uncomfortable to do and havingself compassion and not beating
themselves up for man.
I can't believe I'm doing thisbehavior or I've dealt with this
thing in my life for so long.
Having that self compassion is,to me, leaning into the
discomfort and giving yourselfthat grace and that hyper
(17:46):
awareness and realization tomake those changes through that
pain.
Suffering To me in thetherapist chair is like oh,
they're making progress.
The awareness and the feeling,the feelings and having the
compassion and grace throughthat is kind of like the crux
for a lot of people.
(18:06):
But if you relate it to whatwe're talking about today, it's,
like you said, a form of growth.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, compassion in Buddhist philosophy is also
something that creates actionright away, because the word is
gharuna.
That the compassion is atranslation for that word,
gharuna, which sometimes can betranslated as like the quivering
of the heart.
When I'm compassionate, if I'mlike not feeling it or if I
(18:34):
don't want to do anything aboutit, it's me getting in the way.
So true compassion creates likekind thoughts or actions.
It creates the action.
The action parts come.
So like when I see somebodywho's getting beaten, the
compassion part would be to gohelp the person.
But then if I feel thecompassion and if I'm kind of
avoiding it, that means you knowit's not true compassion.
(18:56):
You know, because one of theprayer or the setting intention
for compassion practices may Ilearn to understand the
suffering or, yeah, may I learnto care about suffering.
There's an aspect of caring.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
It's a greater emotional resilience as a result
.
I think being with those thatfull range and spectrum of
feelings, that's good.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah, so yeah, avoidance.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Yeah, as a therapist I often do that kind of
restructuring, identifying andchallenging negative or
unhelpful beliefs aboutsuffering.
Oh, I shouldn't be feeling thisor challenging that belief
system is we talked about itdetrimental?
So therapy can really helpindividuals reframe their
thoughts and develop a morebalanced and realistic
perspective on the reality ofwhat they're going through.
(19:49):
All suffering.
That's kind of what you'rehitting on Great.
Next, one Another misconceptionSuffering indicates personal
weakness or failure.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
That's a cognitive restructure right there.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Hmm, yeah, that somehow is related to the
self-compassion piece thatyou're talking about that when
I'm suffering, one of the goodantidote for that is oh, this is
a human feeling.
Everybody else goes throughthis.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Let's, let's the listeners absorb what you just
said.
Suffering is a universallyhuman experience.
Everyone goes through it.
Now, marketing, social media,all these things may prevent
signs of challenges orweaknesses or people always show
(20:39):
their best foot forward and andshow that.
But every human beinguniversally experiences
suffering.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Hmm, yeah, yeah, I'm seeing all these misconceptions
that you're describing as veryempowering.
You know, especially this onetoo, is that if I truly believe
that, that if I'm in a placewhere I feel the pain, I feel
the weakness, you know, theshame, or like, oh yeah, I'm not
good enough, all these things,but if I truly believe that
(21:10):
other people goes through thattoo, that creates room for hope.
You know, that means that ifI'm seeing other people who are
like doing really well, thatmeans they've gone through what
I'm going through and they madeit through.
You know, like there's thatunity, some kind of uniting
force, like when I have thathuman experience, as opposed to,
(21:32):
oh, maybe I'm the only onewho's feeling this, I'm not
strong enough.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Part of our human condition is not to be perfect.
Part of our condition of beinghuman is an opportunity to learn
personal development, and oftenthat is through discomfort.
In my experience, pain is uh.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Growth is uncomfortable.
That's what I've heard of.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of times a little majority, but
certainly a lot of times it isyeah, and normalizing that,
normalizing the normal, havingthe word, I think, in America,
suffering I love the Buddhistapproach to suffering, you know,
(22:18):
and just working with you inthis podcast, understanding it
and not this, this supernegative connotation type ways,
is certainly helpful to me too.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yeah, nothing is personal.
It's not personal.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
So question for you, Zao.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
How do we know when we understand true suffering?
How do we know, talking aboutthese misconceptions, these few
points, but how do we know whenwe're truly understanding
whatever, quote unquote truesuffering is Maybe.
That's a maybe that's asuffering, question that I just
(22:56):
made up in my head.
How are we going to know?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
I think that's a great question and somebody who
can answer very clearly andconfidently.
Do that question is already onthe path towards the end of the
enlightenment because, because Ithink so you're there with me,
I think, the use of the word.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Mountain in the path.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I think that the, the keyword that you're using in
that question, is the trueunderstanding.
You know so, like the, the, thenew truth, yeah, and then one
of the factors of the AFO pathis also right understanding,
right view.
So like when something is, whenI see the truth, like that's
(23:39):
already have created, that'salready paved the path towards
the, the end of suffering.
You know so.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
So, yeah, I, I, I don't want to dodge that
question, but the joys and thejourney, even when it's not so
joyful.
It's not where we're going,it's how we get there, and part
of that is growth throughchallenges and discomfort and
suffering.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Yeah, Maybe there there are different levels, but
I think I do want to answer tothat question in terms of like
something welcoming andsomething hopeful, that
understanding I think it's alsorelated to wisdom in a way to it
creates more freedom, moreawareness.
The example that I was thinkingabout was like fire, for
example.
(24:27):
When I don't have anunderstanding of fire, it's
something to be afraid of,something that is destructive,
but then when I understand fire,or when human being understand
fire, we can hone the energy,use it to our benefit.
Suffering can be like anysituation that we don't
understand, but when we gainunderstanding, we make a good
(24:47):
use out of it.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Alright, let's crank this up a notch.
We're talking aboutpsychological and emotional
forms of suffering and howexternal factors have effect our
life and suffering.
What about something reallyphysical Pain?
How can this noble truth helpus with something Like physical
(25:16):
pain?
There's a lot of people outthere with chronic pain.
As a Buddhist practitioner,what kind of things can you do
to help them?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, that's a tough question because I have no
personal experience with that,so I don't want to answer it in
a way that is not relatable, youknow, because I know there are
people out there who are goingthrough physical pain, either
through old age or accident orwhatever unfortunate
(25:49):
circumstances there be.
But what I can relate to ispeople talk a lot about when
you're practicing meditation fora long time, pain physical pain
is something to be observed aswell.
So there is a training for that.
Again, this is like seeingthings as they are Is it the
(26:11):
true discomfort, true pain, oris it my mind creating it?
So that would be a goodclarifying or verification kind
of question to when there is aphysical pain, Is the pain
really there?
If the answer is yes, I can bekind to myself or I can take
(26:31):
medication or go see a doctor asopposed to wait.
Is this really the pain or am Ijust making a big deal out of
it?
So there is thatself-assessment, self-honesty
question.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
And there's some truth with that when it comes to
therapy and chronic pain, whereoften people with chronic pain,
they almost have like atraumatic expanse, so that fight
flight psychologically in thethoughts, which can certainly
enhance emotionally andbehaviorally the sensation and
(27:04):
all aspects of our self andenhance the suffering, one form
of therapy called acceptance andcommitment therapy, act.
Now, mind you, pain is on aspectrum.
It's very personal and thisisn't true for everyone what Zal
and I are saying, but for somepeople.
I'll break down the ACT, theacceptance and commitment
(27:25):
therapy, a little bit more.
It really emphasizes, like Zalyou're saying, acceptance of
difficult thoughts and emotionswhile committing to actions
aligned with one's values andreally helping individuals
develop psychologicalflexibility and resilience in
the face of it.
So what do I mean by that?
The ACT in action could involvea person struggling with
(27:47):
chronic pain.
Instead of trying to suppressor avoid the pain, like we
mentioned earlier, we often leadto increased distress and
suffering.
Act encourages a form ofacceptance of the pain as, let's
say, a natural part of life.
Hey, we know there's this paineither in the forefront, in the
back front of my mind.
Well, there's got to be someacceptance with it and I can I
(28:12):
guess I'm saying this wordintentionally cripple us, or it
can help us.
Okay, how can we learn to bemindful and aware, using
techniques to observe the painwithout judgment, for example?
Okay, how do I not become angryor fearful of this pain and
recognize that it does notdefine my entire existence?
(28:35):
And I can still learn how tomanage and function in some ways
with this pain.
That's hard, that's going totake meditation techniques,
that's going to take therapy fora lot of people and for a lot
of people, other forms of painmanagement to do so.
But this is showing us that,despite experiencing pain, the
(28:58):
person may value spendingquality time with their loved
ones or pursuing meaningful workor engaging in hobbies and
interests, and throughacceptance and commitment
therapy, they learn to commit toactions that align with these
values, even in the presence ofpain.
Yeah that makes me a lot there.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yeah, I follow and that makes me think about, like
the mind in general, thatthoughts are being created
whether I allow it or not.
So that concept of mindfulnessas a gatekeeper is really a key
that I'm in a lot of pain rightnow as a result.
(29:37):
Thoughts are being created andthen, based on that thought, I'm
creating more thoughts.
So mindfulness part is thatwait, is this?
It's not helping me you know, ifit does, let me cultivate more
of that.
But if it doesn't discard that,think about something else.
So like that to me is a goodchallenge about am I watering
the bed seats or am I wateringthe good seats, kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I can't tell you how many people in the first three
to six days of detox, when inthe residential place and they
could sweat and shake and bakein their bed, physically,
emotionally, feel worse andworse than psychologically try
to convince themselves, no, Idon't want to be here, I don't
want to be sick, I don't want tobe in pain, and a lot of them
accepted my nudge.
(30:19):
To well, you can be sick andget worse in bed even though
you're detoxing in your own somecomfort meds.
We can go to group and getoutside of your head in a
healthy way and it's amazing thepower that that had, that they
committed to taking into actionand being around other people
and different thoughts thatweren't just their own, negative
(30:40):
, intrusive, ridden withaddiction and fear and lack of
commitment to this process, is aform of act and into action.
Yeah, now they suffered just alittle bit less with the help of
others and getting outside ofthem and seeing amen, I was
there just five days ago hangingthere.
(31:01):
That's a form of acceptance andcommitment.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Another question for you what do you think these
listeners can do?
All to employ and develop adeeper understanding of
suffering and its role inpersonal growth or
transformation.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, I don't know what you say, because it's
completely related to meditationpractice.
That's what I like aboutBuddhism that the more I learn,
or if I'm truly learning, italso creates more motivation for
a consistent meditationpractice, I think, for on a
daily basis, the thing that tobe mindful of I think we've
(31:46):
touched on this in other aspectsit's about how important today
is, how precious today is, solike.
Another aspect of suffering isthat things are changing.
This moment is irreplaceable,that it's not going to be
created again.
That's also that analogy of theriver thing that when the river
is flowing, each moment ispassing by.
(32:06):
So that, to me, is the firstnoble truth too, that things are
impermanent, always changing,which creates the urgency to be
more present in today, sufferingnot in like oh yeah, I have a
headache, suffering as in I lostsomebody, but as in that as
soon as I wake up, I'm like oh,today is a series of moment, of
(32:30):
leading moments like how do Imake the best out of it?
I think that's a good practicaluse of the first noble truth
that I try to remember, and Ithink that's something to impart
to the listeners too, if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, it's good, it's real good.
We got anything else.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
We can definitely do another series on this topic.
We cannot avoid Doka.
We'll come back to it in anyother way.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Doka.
I think I'm just gonna startwalking around again.
Ah, Doka, Doka.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
People do say that a lot like in Brahma.
Yeah, okay, doka.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Doka Makes perfect sense Serenity now.
Well, as we conclude ourexploration of the nature of
suffering, we hope you've gainedvaluable insights from a
Buddhist and therapist'sperspectives.
Remember, suffering is aninevitable part of the human
experience, but how we relate toit can profoundly shape our
(33:30):
lives.
By cultivating mindfulness,compassion and acceptance, we
can develop greater resilienceand wisdom in the face of
adversity.
Embracing suffering as anopportunity for growth and
transformation allows us to livemore fully and authentically.
Someone wise once said it ispossible to live happily in the
present moment.
It is the only moment we have.
(33:53):
So thank you for joining us onthis journey and may you find
peace and liberation amidstlives and inevitable challenges.
And we'd appreciate it if youlike and subscribe.
My name is Luke and this is Zao.
Have a good day and we'll seeyou next time.
See you next time, take care.
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