September 11, 2023 • 57 mins
Have you ever wondered about the power of transformation in the face of unimaginable grief? We are about to take you through the inspiring journey of Bob Swanson, a father who, after losing his son to suicide, found a new purpose as a passionate advocate for mental health awareness and suicide prevention. Bob's story embodies the resilience that can emerge from immense grief and adversity, giving hope and inspiration to others.
Through his journey, Bob has gained a deep understanding of the importance of being present, recognizing warning signs, and having open conversations about mental health. He educates us about the significance of language when discussing suicide and the rising rates of suicide in the US. Bob's transformation has led him from a life focused on productivity to one dedicated to understanding and helping others cope with mental health issues. His story serves as a reminder that growth is possible even amidst loss and devastation.
Bob drives home the importance of recognizing warning signs and being present in distress. His commitment to suicide prevention and mental health awareness serves as a beacon of hope and resilience for those struggling with their mental health. Bob's experience helps us to understand the importance of compassion and understanding when dealing with mental health issues. So, join us as we walk through Bob's inspiring journey, highlighting the growth potential that can emerge from adversity.
Home | AFSP- American Foundation for Suicide Prevention
SAVE: Suicide Prevention, Information, and Awareness-Suicide Awareness Voices of Education
Home | NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness-National Alliance on Mental Illness
National Institutes of Health (NIH) | Turning Discovery Into Health-National Institutes of Health
QPR Institute | Practical and Proven Suicide Prevention Training QPR Institute (en-US)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey there, my friends , and welcome to a profoundly
impactful episode when thatcarries immense meaning, as we
honor National Recovery Monthand this episode is being
released during National SuicidePrevention Week, which is the
second week of September.
In this month, we aim toincrease public awareness
surrounding mental health andaddiction recovery.
One of the taglines is hope isreal and recovery is possible.
(00:24):
The goal of National SuicidePrevention Week is to raise
awareness about suicide, promotemental health education, reduce
stigma around discussingsuicide and encourage
individuals to reach out forhelp if they or someone they
know is struggling with suicidalthoughts.
So part of ZAWL and myself'spersonal goal is to open
(00:44):
conversations about mentalhealth, provide resources and
support and ultimately preventsuicide through increased
awareness and understanding.
As one of the hosts, I'm deeplyhonored to guide us through a
conversation that's going totouch your hearts and shed light
on an often unspoken side ofmental health struggles and, to
be completely honest with you,it might be a difficult
(01:07):
conversation for myself, so I'llhonor our guest today.
So if at any point you feellike it's hitting a heart string
or is too challenging, guesswhat?
This is a podcast and weencourage you to stop and set it
aside, and the beauty of it is.
You can check it out.
Our hope is it's cathartic,it's helpful, it's supportive.
But if now is not the time, goahead and skip this episode.
(01:33):
But it is National RecoveryMonth and I'm looking forward to
this episode, even though itcomes with HeartSpeak, if you
will today.
Now, bob's story isn't just astory.
It's a testament to theresilience of transformative
potential that can emerge fromreally a heart-wrenching
(01:56):
adversity.
Now there is athought-provoking question that
bounds you to engage yourcuriosity.
What ignites the transformationfrom a father who initially had
limited familiarity with mentalhealth concerns?
As he warmly puts it, old Bob,new Bob, who passionately
champions now mental healthadvocacy and unwaveringly
(02:20):
strives for suicide prevention.
So joining us all and I todayis our special guest, bob
Swanson, a man whose journeytakes us through grief,
resilience and transformation.
Bob, welcome, welcome, bob.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Nice to be with both of you today.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So I did my best to set that up.
As it's quite a potentiallyintense talk we have today on
the topic of suicide, suicideawareness, prevention and
everything that comes with it,Can you briefly introduce
yourself and share a bit aboutyour journey that led you to
really becoming an amazingadvocate for mental health
(03:01):
awareness and suicide prevention?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Sure, the last 14 years have been transformational
.
14 years ago actually, march 13, 2009, our oldest son, michael,
died by suicides.
So everyone in our family weresuicide loss survivors.
We've lost a loved one tosuicide, but Michael's journey
(03:24):
with mental illness actuallystarted, I would say, early in
his adolescence.
He was diagnosed at eighth orninth grade that he had clinical
depression.
It wasn't until he made anattempt on his life at age 29
that we understood he was livingwith bipolar disorder.
(03:45):
And now, since his death, I'verealized that he was living with
other illnesses of the brain.
People affected disorder,anxiety disorder and also
substance use and abuse ofalcohol.
Those weren't clear, so I'lllook a little bit more about me.
(04:10):
I was in the constructionindustry my whole adult life.
It happened to be a part of itcalled the pain in decorating
industry.
The last 25 years of my careerI had the privilege to lead a
very successful pain indecorating contracting firm.
Losing Michael was devastatingand I didn't understand all that
(04:34):
he was going through and Inever will.
I was like how could thishappen?
The first attempt on his lifewas devastating, but of course,
the loss of his life was evenmore so.
Everything I assumed prior tothat, as far as working hard,
providing for your family, doingthe right thing, having a
(04:58):
strong faith and the Creator, Ibelieve in.
All that just turned upsidedown immediately and I went
through quite a period of a lotof grief, a lot of guilt and
after Michael's death I buriedmyself in my work One.
(05:19):
I loved it, I thought I wasgood at it, still do.
But that was a safe place andwe as a family pulled in, pulled
away from everybody, becausethat was the only thing that
felt safe.
Of course those were not theright things to do, but that was
our safety mechanism.
(05:39):
Thankfully, not too long afterMichael's death I was encouraged
to do it, to join a man'ssupport group, part of SAVE,
suicide awareness, voices ofeducation.
It was all males.
Up to that point I had neverbeen in a support group.
I was in the constructionindustry where you figure things
(06:04):
out I'm a boomer where youfigure things out yourself.
You don't go to anybody.
I can remember early on in lifeit was from my dad just tough
it up, tough it up.
So that helped me at leastacknowledge I wasn't alone.
Prior to Michael's death we gotinvolved in the National
(06:25):
Alliance of Mental Illness,another great group who I
volunteer for today and I havefor the last 10 years.
It began.
It allowed us to realize weweren't alone and it wasn't our
fault.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Then I want to ask you a question, bob, for someone
that you painted quite apicture of shock.
Surprise, your son died bysuicide and you did what she did
right.
You called yourself a boomerand owning a business in the
(07:05):
construction industry.
We know about the Sigmastereotype and culture with that
field.
So you got lost in your workand that was your potentially
healthy escape.
It's hey, I'm being a part ofsociety, I need to function all
those things that come with thatstage of shock and grief and
(07:29):
loss.
How did you get from that stageto wait?
Now you're talking about beingopen to attending AMI meetings
and save, and you're glad thatyou did.
How did you get to that point?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Well, I was at rock bottom after losing Michael.
It was like I didn't know if Icould go on and I grasped my
faith and pleaded with the God Ibelieve in helping.
I can't deal with this.
I don't know how to deal withit.
(08:08):
When I would submit at myweakest moment is when I was
open to other things.
Up to that point in my life Iwould not have been open.
It was just out of totaldespair.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
I can't imagine what that is like and I'll never
forget.
I had a client tell me oncethat when you lose a spouse, a
husband or a wife, you're awidow.
If you lose your parents,you're an orphan, but if you
lose a child it hurts so badthat there is no name for that.
(08:45):
So I can't fathom the type ofjust heart-wrenching pain and,
like you said, I don't know howI could go on.
I don't want to take you backthere to sensationalize, but for
potential family members andparents to realize that they're
not alone.
What were some of the thingsthat you questioned?
(09:07):
I've often heard people saytake me instead of him.
What were some of thoseoriginal thoughts that you went
through, that years later thatyou might still question?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Well.
After Michael's first attemptand it was clear he was not
doing well for four years Iworried about him every day,
every moment.
Is he okay?
And what else can we do to helpour son?
My prayers every day were Lord,give him some peace.
(09:43):
And little did I know thatprayer was answered, not in the
way I wanted, but I know at thispoint or at that point our son
no longer is tormented, he's atpeace.
So that was probably thebeginning of it, luke.
(10:03):
So I would tell people.
And then I've realized itwasn't my fault.
It's an illness.
A brother of mine whose deceaseddied from multiple illnesses of
the body, the main one beingcystic fibrosis, whereas lungs
(10:25):
just couldn't handle it anymore.
And I didn't blame him for that.
But I went through a period oftime when Michael was still with
us, like what's your problem?
Why can't you fix this?
And how bizarre It'd be liketelling my brother why can't you
fix cystic fibrosis.
(10:46):
It's just is.
So I have pain for that.
I've asked God to forgive mefor that.
And I think the other pieceafter losing a child, how would
I say it?
I will never heal from that.
I've lost both my parents, I'velost a brother and after a
(11:11):
while it made sense.
We knew we did all we could andthe markers the markers we have
in medicine dictated life wasleaving them.
That's not the case with my sonand that will trouble me at
times.
What else could we have done?
(11:32):
I don't know if I answered yourquestion, luke, but the big
thing is don't blame yourselfand forgive yourself if you lose
a loved one to suicide.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah, I think you did .
I think you normalize some ofthe things that people may
struggle voicing as if it'swrong or I shouldn't be thinking
or feeling this way, but it'snormal to question, wonder, a
lot of those thoughts, whethertaking responsibility or doubt
or worry.
That's a part of this thing fora lot of people.
(12:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
I don't even know where to begin, but I do want to
jump in to get more engaged interms of I relate as a son,
because my parents definitelywent through something similar,
except they were more blessed,but anyway.
So I wanted to ask about thething that you mentioned about
(12:32):
finding a group where you don'tfeel like you're not alone
anymore and I really think thatis a solution to many of our
mental health related problemswhere I find a community where
things can be really tough as afamily member of the person
who's suffering or the personwho suffers himself.
And also you mentioned aboutthis despair hitting a rock
(12:53):
bottom in a way, and I wanted tohear more about that process
where you were open to new ways,but also finding a community
where you felt you weren't aloneanymore.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Well, I think, because my world was turned
upside down.
It was like okay, what I'vedone in the past didn't bring
the results I wanted, so I haveto be open to try something new.
So it was at that rock bottompoint.
I was open.
And then, if you hit that pointmentally, now you're willing to
(13:29):
.
When people approach you,you're willing to say, you know,
yes.
So when the same group theleader of that called me and
said would you be willing tojoin us one Saturday a month?
So the invitation was important, but my willingness to even
(13:54):
accept it was important.
So those two got to go togetherand I stayed with that group
for about four years until Ifelt I was ready to move on.
I had gotten nourished and Ifelt I nourished others in the
group.
But now it was time for me todo something about it rather
(14:15):
than just stay in the safety ofthe group.
And then I was asked from aperson who I have worked with
now for about a dozen years.
She called my wife up and saidyou think Bob's ready to talk
about your journey?
I've never spoken.
(14:36):
I'm a painting contractor.
Yeah, I've made presentationsto our employees.
But at first I thought, whydon't I want to do that.
And she said your story isimportant, it's powerful.
So I said yes, and ever sincethat day I've been speaking.
And, luke, today I was askedI'm going to speak at a glass
(15:02):
glass build conference the endof October.
I mean, I would have neverthought I'd even be in the
position to be doing this, and Idon't advertise it's a higher
power is interceding in this.
Or I'd like to say Michael, myson up there is going, go for it
, dad, and I feel him at my side.
(15:22):
So through loss I've beenstrengthened.
But boy, it was hard work andit took a lot of effort.
But I had to be open to it andI don't think I would have been
had I not had such a devastatingloss.
I would have still been going.
Okay, just buck it up, workharder, you'll figure it out.
(15:44):
All that wasn't working.
I don't know if I answered yourquestion, but that's kind of
how I went from point A to pointB, but I didn't even see the
path.
The path was not chartered forme.
I just was willing to walkforward.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Yeah, as you're sharing.
It makes me think about thisline that is so used so often
that it's kind of like asignature line, but it means a
lot of the thing about thanksfor sharing how beautiful and
uniting that is, because, beingin recovery, I've also lost a
lot of friends.
They say the longer you staysober, the longer you stay in
(16:23):
recovery, the more funeralyou're going to go to which is
very hard to adapt to, buteventually to, the more I share
about my feelings with others.
It becomes more like acelebration or honoring of the
life that they lived and also,like you were pointing out
earlier too, that it's not ourfault, it's not that person's
fault, it's an illness, and alsothis is a fact that is hard to
(16:45):
accept but that death is part oflife, which I don't really want
to think that way, but itactually is true.
Death is part of life, but itreally unites and strengthen us.
Whenever we have connectionswhere we share memories and
honor the lives that they lived,it can be very healing and
connecting.
That's what I'm hearing fromyour story.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
And I think that is quite a silver lining.
And you talk about the Ughcan't even fathom devastation to
that opening and newunderstanding.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about your growth and
awareness of understandingmental health and your son's
journey towards that?
(17:29):
We talk about it.
I like how you talk about oldBob, new Bob, how you looked and
you perceived things as ownerof a business construction, work
, work, work but your bootstrapskeep going to what you
understand now about mentalillness.
Take us a little bit along thatjourney and that silver lining
(17:52):
that you have today.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Well, the industry I was brought up in and lived in
is a tough industry and it waslike you shop for work, that's a
given and then you do your workand you go home and all is good
and that's the industry.
(18:15):
I felt comfortable in thatindustry.
That was the rule.
That's the way it is.
Did I always shop at the top ofmy game?
No, there's anybody else.
But I had to show up to work.
I look back fairly early in mycareer when I was initially
(18:37):
became a supervisor.
There's an individual I stillhaunts me.
I was that old Bob and thisperson hadn't been showing up to
work.
Their work was not good.
They were a lot of anger.
The crew was tired of puttingup with that person and
(18:58):
basically the crew told me getthem out of here.
So I brought that individual inthe office and gave them a
presentation.
I did too many times.
Basically said, theindividual's name was Gary.
Gary, I don't know what yourproblem is.
You're not performing andunless you change, you can't
(19:21):
work here anymore.
I know I contributed to hisdeath.
Within two weeks he died bysuicide.
That still haunts me and ittook losing my son.
I stayed on that track, but ittook to losing my son oldest son
(19:42):
to realize.
You know, a lot of people haveillnesses that are impacting
them, so they can't be at thetop of their game and Bob
Swanson needs to accept thatnumber one.
And as an employer, I need tohelp people be better and not
(20:02):
just say it's your fault, no,and that you better fix yourself
.
That doesn't make sense.
So it took a long time, and thenwhat I realized, when I started
giving a feeling in the companythat we need to help each other
and it's okay to come forwardwith issues that are holding you
(20:27):
back, I was amazed at all thepeople that were open to telling
me their story and it felt sogood to help them.
So there's a flip side, onethat I feel so good about.
Old Bob told this individualwhat I just said and I
(20:48):
terminated that person, but thatallowed them to take a look at
their life and they have been inrecovery ever since and that
person, about six months,fleeted for the job back and he
and I have really had a joyousrelationship even after my
(21:11):
retirement, in that I helped himbut he helped me understand how
this all works and he's beenfeeling so good about himself
ever since he was able toaddress his issues and he's now
in recovery and I now understand.
I also have a close employee.
(21:34):
She called me a few weeks agoand she is now approaching her
100th day of sobriety.
People, they wouldn't have toldme those things years ago
because I wasn't gonna listen.
And so back to your point, zah.
(21:55):
I got this joy in my heart,knowing maybe I have helped some
people and rather than justthrowing people and say it is
their fault.
So I got long-winded, I get.
It's really joyful.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I have a fellow in my community who uses metaphor
that the most beautiful giftscome in ugly wrappings, and I've
been thinking about that.
That.
How true and how beautiful thatis that one of the many worst
experiences that I'veexperienced were actually the
gifts hidden and we can be quitedistracted by how it looks, but
(22:35):
it's actually something verygolden within, where there is
joy, and your story is inspiringto be a testament of that.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, there's been a lot of trial and tribulations
that you experienced as a lovedone with a family member
struggling with mental illness.
Can you shine some light onthat, when it comes to being
there even though you say you'reold Bob, but we're not always
old Bob there's times, as afamily member, as a parent, as a
(23:05):
husband, wife, son, that we aresupportive, when we're not full
of fear and anger.
Tell us about some of that lensof being a father and trying to
help your son with some ofthose mental illness things that
he was going through.
Shine some light on that for us.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Well, number one.
Nobody worked harder at tryingto cope and manage his illnesses
than Michael.
I'm now even more so, justastounded by how hard he worked
at it Keeping a log with apsychiatrist, taking his meds,
(23:49):
diet, exercise, sleep all thethings that someone trying to
manage an illness of the brainis told to do.
He left us a wonderful daughterwho today is 26 years old.
He, in his own pain, would doanything for his daughter and it
(24:11):
was clear on days that we woulddo stuff together as a family.
He wasn't feeling very well buthe would rise above that for
his daughter Also.
How do I?
At times maybe we enabled inthis manner, we made excuses for
(24:38):
him.
It's hard, the shame and stigma.
It was difficult to tell peopleour son was living with
illnesses of the brain and itwas really a closed group that
(24:58):
even knew that Michael wasliving with the illnesses of the
brain.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
This is real.
Why was that a struggle at thattime for you?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Shame.
I was ashamed of our son havingillnesses.
I didn't understand why can'the get better?
So it was a shame thing.
Reflection he was ashamed.
He would say dad, why can't Iget my crap together?
What's wrong with me?
I didn't know what to tell himand I think, fear.
(25:32):
Once he made an attempt on hislife, I was scared for him.
Am I gonna lose my son?
And this doesn't make sense.
So I think that was all wrappedin there.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
And to because of that shame, because of that fear
, not knowing what to do with itor how to get the support and
help, it can compound itself,can it?
Oh boy, yeah.
And we see that way too oftenand I think that's part of one
(26:08):
thing I wanted to shine light on, as it being Suicide Prevention
Week, that these feelings thatcan feel shameful, or whether
family members feel responsibleor man are I'm gonna say it this
way am I weak?
Is he weak?
These are feelings that peoplethink and question and feel bad
(26:31):
about even voicing it.
So thank you for sharing that,because these are real things
that happen to people and familymembers and loved ones
Absolutely, and I can onlyimagine when he passed what that
did to your shame.
What were some of thoseexperiences at that time when
(26:55):
what happened to your shame?
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Well, the support group I mentioned.
They require you to say I'myour name, who you lost as a
loved one, and to say out loudhow it happened.
Boy oh boy, I cried tears ofimmense pain.
(27:23):
They even get the words up.
I couldn't tell anybody thatwasn't a very, very close friend
or family member, for I don'tknow how long.
I wanna say a couple of yearsthat my oldest son died by
suicide.
So it took a long time to letgo of that.
(27:44):
And then it's back to what Zawsaid, celebrating when I could
finally say to someone today'sthe anniversary of my son's
death he died by suicide, wow.
But here's the crazy thing ofour society when you go on a
(28:09):
group and I call it just the oldstandard introduction bar talk,
you know who are, you blah,blah, blah.
And you finally maybe get alittle deeper.
Somebody says oh, what'd you dofor a career?
You got any kids?
And I've always said we havefour adult kids, I'll never
disown Michael, and but I haveone one's deceased.
(28:30):
Then they of course oh, whathappened?
He died by suicide.
Almost universally theconversation changes, unless
it's somebody that is like you,luke, and says that must be
(28:50):
really hurtful, tell me more.
But most people just let's goto another topic because I don't
wanna talk about that.
That increases the shame meter,you know.
It brings it back a little bitlike boy, you can't even accept
my hood and you're dumping thaton me.
(29:13):
So now you.
So I have to be careful of whatI do with that and I choose not
to pick that up.
That's on you, not me.
If you have shame and can'tdeal with my son's death, that's
your fault or your problem, notmine.
I'm not gonna pick that up.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Good for you.
Yeah, the other thing that I'mhearing in the spirit of this
month is how precious eachmoment is, especially from the
point of view of like a lot isbeing impacted.
You know, like because I stayreally active in recovery,
because you never know, a phonecall can be a determining point
for somebody who's about tocommit suicide.
(29:57):
And then he makes a phone calland you answer that.
You know, or it can be a songfrom a, you know it can be a
lyrics on the radio, or it canbe a smile.
Whatever it is, you know eachmoment is so precious because
that can have a really positiveimpact or kind of like a
determining, defining momentwhere they made a decision.
Because you know hope can be alittle tricky, like it cannot be
seen, you know it needs to besought sometimes, and that it
(30:20):
comes in at a surprising time orunexpected time where you're
like oh, this is why I'm stillliving and life is hopeful.
You know that's also somethingelse that I'm hearing.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
So out of respect and I respect you I would encourage
you and others not to saycommit suicide.
And here's why it's my beliefand NAMI, national
Anti-Minealism, also believesthis.
When we say commit, we'reblaming the person that they
(30:52):
wanted to die.
Our son did not want to die, hewanted his pain to end and his
illness has caused his death.
So I'd rather the term died bysuicide, died from suicide or
died because of illnesses of thebrain, something of that vein,
(31:13):
because I think the commit stillputs the blame on the person
and we're not gonna change thesuicide death.
So I looked up something and theyear our son died we had about
40,000 suicides in the UnitedStates.
Last year we had almost 50,000.
(31:35):
That's a 25% increase in 10years.
And as long as we feel likewhile they wanted to die or is
there a fault?
One, it's not gonna change thestatistics.
And number two, it keepspounding that shame on the
family members left behind, likeit was my fault your son died.
No, it wasn't.
It wasn't Michael's faulteither.
(31:57):
So I'm I just, out of respect,thought I'd respond to that
statement.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Yeah, that's also another the beauty of this
conversation where things openedup, because these are the
things that I would not havebeen educated by, you know,
because these are just commonterms that people use but having
some negative effect on somebeans, you know.
So I appreciate you correctingthat.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
And I didn't.
I was no different.
I use those words for losingour son also.
But I've learned, as you bothknow, words are powerful.
They can be powerful negativelyor positively.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
You absolutely well said and thank you for that
there's more hope in here.
There's more hope.
Your experience in Zal, throughthe Buddhist principles, talks
a lot about suffering andsuffering.
I think as Americans we havealways a negative connotation on
(33:01):
suffering, understandably so.
But in your heartache that Ican't fathom in form of
suffering, we're seeing thesilver lining and the advocacy.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout those key moments and you
shared a little bit about thatalready just how you went from
(33:23):
just tragedy to helpingcommunities grappling with
mental illnesses.
I mean that's quite a leap.
It's quite a leap.
I can't fathom that, I can'timagine.
I have a little zone, I havelittle ones and being able to,
it's courage, it's heart.
You have a heart that's beenaffected to not just cry when
(33:46):
this topic comes up.
How did this calling?
What is it?
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Well, I couldn't be angry the rest of my life.
Self pity doesn't get youanywhere.
I've always been.
I think a gift I have issolving problems.
And yet I had to say I couldn'thelp my son.
(34:15):
But how can I help others?
Because I, boy, I don't wantanyone to go through what we've
gone through.
And then it just became clear Igot involved in a construction
group called the NationalAlliance on Suicide Prevention
and I learned the constructionindustry.
We have more suicides than anyother industry and I realized
(34:40):
that the suicide rate in theconstruction industry is almost
five times the generalpopulation and I said now that's
an industry I can relate to.
Maybe I can help not only myhealing, but help others in the
industry I know something aboutand that again, some of these
(35:04):
things it's not me, it's somehigher power that's been
orchestrating this.
So I was asked to speak to aconstruction financial
management association webinarback in 2016 or 17.
And then, as you know, luke,the painters were grappling with
(35:25):
this and we started developingaids for at least to talk about
it and other industries, andsince then I've been working
with the laborers, thecarpenters, and just I'm giving
back to an industry I loved andhopefully I'm helping others and
(35:45):
I know I am because after anypresentation I make, there's
usually one or two people comeup or more.
So, again, because it'sdifficult is I make in an email,
I make it a phone call and manypeople have told me, in fact,
one that's still again, I feeljoyful.
(36:06):
A fellow painting contractor Ispoke at a painting contracting
forum like 2019 maybe and hesent me an email later that your
presentation today gave me thecourage to address my issues and
(36:29):
without that I wouldn't be heretoday.
My goodness, that's humblingbut joyful both, in that maybe I
had a little measure of helpingthat person address their
issues and have the courage tosay I would not be alive today
(36:51):
had you not been present.
And after every presentation Imake, including the classes I
taught with you, luke, I'mabsolutely emotionally drained
every time and I also realizecertain places I cannot go as
(37:15):
far as talking about Michael'slife.
I won't go there.
It's still too painful.
So I believe in self-care verystrongly.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
I think that's a perfect example of self-care
that you're not sacrificing yourhealth and well-being for
potentially helping others.
Like you said, and I remember acouple trainings back that we
did, we were doing peer supportfor substance abuse and mental
(37:48):
health, peer supports forconstruction industry, and I
remember being unbelievablydrained after that and one of
the reasons being that we have aclose friend of ours that was
participating who just lost ason.
How many days before we did thattraining 30, 36, 46 days before
(38:10):
we gave that training and abunch of the things that we're
talking about today he was goingthrough and we were there to
support him and I justremembered just being next to
him and touching his back andtalking about suicide prevention
(38:31):
and awareness and mentalillness and how they're so
interrelated and seeing ourfriends struggle.
That was draining for me.
I was there to support him butthat was a tough three days.
That was a tough three days.
So that self-care of noticingand being aware of that and we
(38:54):
were giving this training to 30people from around the US and
Canada, but also there with ourfriend.
That is indescribable heartachefor most people, took a lot of
energy, took a lot of energy.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
So, luke, our dear friend, sunday will be one year
since his loss.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
And one thing I learned from you, bob and this
was my sure I'll call itignorance, my stigma that I
learned from you doing a lot ofthese suicide awareness and
prevention trainings, that, ohmy, until you told me that you
wanted phone calls on that dayof your son's passing, michael's
(39:38):
passing, I never would havethought to do that and I never
felt that you wanted to connectwith people during that day and
not just hold up.
That was my stigma, that was myillness.
The example you gave earlier,as soon as you mentioned as my
son passed from suicide, peoplego inward and I go, wait a
(40:04):
minute, I'm here to support myfriend Bob.
Of course I'm going to put thaton my calendar and give him a
call To me.
It's the connection piece.
You're going to that meetingand crying and using that
support to connect with peopleand not be alone in that grief
(40:24):
process.
Eventually, that silver liningof I certainly didn't want to do
it because of the sacrifice ofyour son, but you get to give
back in a way that you neverthought you would or could.
That's not everybody's storywhen it comes to suicide, but
boy is that powerful.
Yeah, I'll be calling him comenext weekend.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Well then, I made a presentation to a contracting
firm in May and unfortunately,they lost an employee to suicide
within that month.
The employer called me in griefwithin hours after he found out
and he said what should we do?
(41:09):
I said, well, what would you doif an employee died from a
heart attack or a car accident?
He listed off.
I said it's no different thatfamily's grieving and it speaks
to what you just said, Luke weas a society tend to treat it
different.
That family who lost theemployee, the loved one, to
(41:35):
suicide was hurting just evenmore so than if they had lost
someone to a car accident.
But we tend to withdraw, likeyou said, and all that does is
increase the grief and the shameand the pain of the loved ones
(41:56):
when they're needing it evenmore so.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yeah, what would you tell and I think you're telling
us in a bunch of different waysalready what would you tell the
family member who's strugglingwith grief of a loved one they
lost by suicide?
What would you tell that person?
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Well, number one, I don't have all the answers.
I can share part of my story.
It would be well.
I have a dear friend who lostan adult child to cancer within
the last six months and I saidlosing a child is immensely
(42:45):
painful, but the key is youcan't blame yourself If you do
the what if I wish we would havedone.
There's no end to that.
Some things we just don'tunderstand and you have to come
to some acceptance of that.
(43:05):
And then I would really stresswhat would they want you to do?
Would Michael have wanted me tobe an angry man, bitter?
No, our son was a loving,caring person who happened to
have a number of illnesses.
(43:25):
I know Michael would be angrywith me if I was just a bitter
old man.
He would want me to help others.
So I would throw it that way.
What would your loved one wantyou to do now, once you start
the healing process?
(43:45):
And then there's hardly aperson would say well, they want
me to just be angry.
No, they'd want you to carry ontheir legacy and be loving to
others and the family that losta loved one to cancer.
He's going to get involved withdemanding, and their community,
(44:07):
more cancer research.
So I would challenge the familyand right after the grief of
losing someone, they're notgoing to hear that, but remind
them of that as time goes on.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah, it's really good.
It's probably important to.
I didn't have this in my notes,but I think this is important
to talk about.
We've done education andawareness on this topic a couple
, more than a couple times, andwhen it comes to looking at
(44:46):
signs and red flags, can youshare whether it's Michaels or
in general, that you're aware ofwhen it comes to signs or red
flags of suicide that can leadto pervention with these red
flags?
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Well, I didn't know any of those signs.
I do today.
But again I would say thatbecause of the Stakeman shame of
suicide, the signs are hard toread.
I don't know too many caseswhere people have just said
today, at tomorrow, at 10 am,I'm going to end my life.
(45:29):
It's a gradual process.
I've also learned thatunfortunately, they've studied
people who have survivedsuicides About 25%.
The cycle of the sequencebetween idea, plan and action
was very, very quick 50%, anhour or less time.
(45:55):
So it's not.
It's maybe people have suicidalthoughts running on and off, on
and off, but they actually takethe act and sometimes be very
immediate.
Something triggers it I'd liketo use in my presentations.
People living with a mentalillness have a dirty windshield.
They're not seeing maybe anyclear outcomes, they lose hope
(46:22):
and I think our son lost hope.
So back to your question.
I would say some warning signsbehavioral changes, hopelessness
, whether they're not engaged,they don't care about anything
tomorrow.
Verbal statements I won't bearound here very much longer.
Nobody cares if I'd be dead oralive.
(46:43):
These aren't trying to getattention.
These are cries for help.
So I think every one of thoseis a serious something requiring
a serious attention Losing yourfreedom Built in all these are
losing hope and the shame youget put in jail for a couple
(47:07):
days for something that you'reashamed of.
Now you're losing control ofyour life.
We all like to think we're incontrol of our lives and those
of us you in recovery.
And now I'm gonna say I'm inrecovery, I'm a recovery suicide
survivor.
I realize I'm not in control ofvery much, so it's a matter of
(47:31):
recognizing that people givingout those warning signs and
signals they're crying for help,but they don't know how to say
it.
So we need to listen better.
We need to watch behavior muchbetter.
And then, when we're fragilegoing through a divorce, going
through loss of a job, goingthrough major oh, the Centers
(47:54):
for Disease Control studied allsuicides after 2017.
29% were within two weeks of alife-changing event.
So as we go throughlife-changing events, we're
fragile.
I was fragile after losing myson, so those are signal signs
(48:17):
that we have to really bereceptive to.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Yeah, and you talk about ideations, thoughts, plan
action and that can happen.
You said what an hour timeframe and that's something that
a lot of times, when peoplethink it, that might be going on
, that's something that peopleshy away from and we teach in
(48:43):
our advocacy unit or groups thatwe talk ask the question.
If you're worried about someone, ask them are you thinking of
suicide, are you suicidal rightnow?
Be present with that person.
To me, that is a powerful thingbecause that's what that can do
when someone has, whether it'sdepression, the ultimate level
(49:05):
of isolation where suicidebecomes a legitimate solution
and option.
There's a lack of connection,there's shame, there's mental
illness.
So being present enough to askthat person are you suicidal
right now?
That can potentially save alife.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Well, I had the privilege to listen to an
individual.
Kevin Hines is his name.
He's one of only a couple dozenwho have survived an attempt
off the Golden Gate Bridge.
And here's where his words.
He's standing by the railingand he said if anyone had just
(49:47):
come up to me and said, are youokay, how can I help?
Nobody did that and he felt soalone.
And that's he said.
I would have probably not goneover the railing if somebody had
just made me aware of I wasimportant.
(50:08):
He felt no worth and no hope.
But now he's living to tellthat story.
And, boy, if you ever had go onYouTube, powerful story, kevin
Hines.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
I was very fortunate and I do believe fortunate to
work with a suicide preventionteam with the Veterans Affairs
and VA and part of Maryland andthere would literally be
veterans with red flags on theirsystem and part of the suicide
prevention team is we would callthese veterans and there was
(50:46):
more than one occasion where Icalled them and yes, I'm here
with I'm looking at a bunch ofpills and my training kicked in
and I was present with them andI connected with them and I was
very fortunate because of thatconnection that we were able to
help them do so.
That happened more than oneoccasion and it just so happened
(51:09):
that was one of the veteransthat I called that day and at
that time just the connectionwas enough to get him the help
that he needed that time.
But that can make thedifference.
So I'll give you some yourBuddhist perspective on things
right now, as we don't a lot oftopics.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
Huh, yeah, this has been really good, and I don't
know what comes to mind.
And what I'm hearing is alsohow important it is for us to
have a sense of belonging, youknow, because we are social
animals and when we have thatdisengagement, that's where
thoughts become so loud andthose ideas turn into action.
You know very quickly, becausewhy do I even exist?
(51:50):
You know, I don't matter.
But that little conversationhow are you feeling?
You know, can make a hugedifference, like really being
present.
So I really appreciateeverything that you're doing,
bob, because this is reallyalmost like a yeah, pretty much
educating, you know, the societyto look at it differently, but
also for people to open up.
But from the Buddhist point ofview, you know what I am hearing
(52:14):
and what I'm processing.
How I'm processing all this isthe idea of pain.
You know pain is inevitable.
Might as well make a good useout of it, you know.
So you are a good example ofmaking a good use out of it, of
your own personal pain, but alsoreaching out to other people
and helping others.
So, yeah, I really appreciateit.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
I had a slogan on my wall in the office change with
inevitable, growth is optional.
And you could say the sameabout pain.
Pain is inevitable, growth isoptional.
You can be stuck in that painand resist it or and that will
(52:59):
do again, or try to do somethingabout it, and I feel blessed
that I'm given the opportunityto do something about it and
honoring the son that I dearlyloved and lost and still miss.
But I will keep doing this aslong as people find it valuable.
(53:20):
I really appreciate theopportunity to join both of you
today.
Thank you, yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
I know you know this and believe this, just affecting
one person in the rightdirection makes it all
worthwhile.
Absolutely well, before we wrapup, but now you know a couple
and we'll put this in the shownotes do you mind sharing some
awesome for referral services ormental health groups or suicide
(53:49):
prevention groups that, off thetop of your head, putting you
on this box?
I know you know quite a bit ofthem that you'd recommend and
I'll put in the notes afterwards.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
American Foundation for suicide prevention excellent
group.
Suicide awareness.
Voices of education excellentgroup, I would also say National
Alliance on mental illness.
They have some very goodinformation about suicide
prevention.
National Institute of Health isanother good resource.
(54:22):
And then two courses.
I happen to teach one of them,qpr question persuade refer the
QPR Institute.
It's about an hour and a halfcourse.
It tells you some of thosethings.
One, looking at the warningsigns how do you ask that
question?
How do you persuade somebody toget help?
(54:45):
And then, having resources,another very good course it's a
little longer is it's aneight-hour course mental health
first aid.
Many of us took basic first aidat some point in our lives to
know what to do in casesomebody's bleeding, not
breathing, etc.
This goes into quite a bit moredepth of how do you recognize
(55:08):
someone's a mental crisis andhow do you recognize that
they're suicidal, and then whatdo you do about it and how can
you help them get through that.
So those are some things thatcome right away to mind and just
like there's a 911 number,isn't there a national?
national suicide, it's not justnational suicide.
(55:29):
So 988, thank you Luke, it willrefer you to a local crisis
center.
It goes off your cell phone soif I was traveling in Virginia
and I called the 988 number, itwould be thinking I'm in
Minnesota, so it referred to meto a Minnesota crisis line.
But 988's a national crisisline, so it's both for if
(55:56):
someone's in a mental crisissituation or just struggling to
the point also of being suicidal, and it's it's staff 24-7 by
crisis individuals.
Another resource if you do call911 because it's an imminent
danger, ask for a crisisintervention team.
Speaker 1 (56:18):
Law enforcement agencies throughout the United
States are training people howto deal with someone in mental
crisis, so ask for a crisisintervention team, thank you so
much for joining us today inthis profoundly moving journey
that we've that you've beenthrough, and I think this is a
powerful episode.
(56:38):
Remember Bob's story reminds usthat even in the darkest
moments, there's room for hope,transformation and advocacy.
If you're moved by Bob'sjourney and want to learn more,
we'll be sharing resources thatyou can explore in the notes,
and a huge thank you to Saul and, of course, bob for sharing his
heart with us.
Just stay tuned for moretransformative conversations and
(57:01):
, until then, take care, becompassionate and never
underestimate the power of yourstory.
My name is Luke.
This is all.
We'll see you next time, see,yeah, thank you, bob thank you
to both of you.
Hey there, my friends , and welcome to a profoundly
impactful episode when thatcarries immense meaning, as we
honor National Recovery Monthand this episode is being
released during National SuicidePrevention Week, which is the
second week of September.
In this month, we aim toincrease public awareness
surrounding mental health andaddiction recovery.
One of the taglines is hope isreal and recovery is possible.
(00:24):
The goal of National SuicidePrevention Week is to raise
awareness about suicide, promotemental health education, reduce
stigma around discussingsuicide and encourage
individuals to reach out forhelp if they or someone they
know is struggling with suicidalthoughts.
So part of ZAWL and myself'spersonal goal is to open
(00:44):
conversations about mentalhealth, provide resources and
support and ultimately preventsuicide through increased
awareness and understanding.
As one of the hosts, I'm deeplyhonored to guide us through a
conversation that's going totouch your hearts and shed light
on an often unspoken side ofmental health struggles and, to
be completely honest with you,it might be a difficult
(01:07):
conversation for myself, so I'llhonor our guest today.
So if at any point you feellike it's hitting a heart string
or is too challenging, guesswhat?
This is a podcast and weencourage you to stop and set it
aside, and the beauty of it is.
You can check it out.
Our hope is it's cathartic,it's helpful, it's supportive.
But if now is not the time, goahead and skip this episode.
(01:33):
But it is National RecoveryMonth and I'm looking forward to
this episode, even though itcomes with HeartSpeak, if you
will today.
Now, bob's story isn't just astory.
It's a testament to theresilience of transformative
potential that can emerge fromreally a heart-wrenching
(01:56):
adversity.
Now there is athought-provoking question that
bounds you to engage yourcuriosity.
What ignites the transformationfrom a father who initially had
limited familiarity with mentalhealth concerns?
As he warmly puts it, old Bob,new Bob, who passionately
champions now mental healthadvocacy and unwaveringly
(02:20):
strives for suicide prevention.
So joining us all and I todayis our special guest, bob
Swanson, a man whose journeytakes us through grief,
resilience and transformation.
Bob, welcome, welcome, bob.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Nice to be with both of you today.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So I did my best to set that up.
As it's quite a potentiallyintense talk we have today on
the topic of suicide, suicideawareness, prevention and
everything that comes with it,Can you briefly introduce
yourself and share a bit aboutyour journey that led you to
really becoming an amazingadvocate for mental health
(03:01):
awareness and suicide prevention?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Sure, the last 14 years have been transformational
.
14 years ago actually, march 13, 2009, our oldest son, michael,
died by suicides.
So everyone in our family weresuicide loss survivors.
We've lost a loved one tosuicide, but Michael's journey
(03:24):
with mental illness actuallystarted, I would say, early in
his adolescence.
He was diagnosed at eighth orninth grade that he had clinical
depression.
It wasn't until he made anattempt on his life at age 29
that we understood he was livingwith bipolar disorder.
(03:45):
And now, since his death, I'verealized that he was living with
other illnesses of the brain.
People affected disorder,anxiety disorder and also
substance use and abuse ofalcohol.
Those weren't clear, so I'lllook a little bit more about me.
(04:10):
I was in the constructionindustry my whole adult life.
It happened to be a part of itcalled the pain in decorating
industry.
The last 25 years of my careerI had the privilege to lead a
very successful pain indecorating contracting firm.
Losing Michael was devastatingand I didn't understand all that
(04:34):
he was going through and Inever will.
I was like how could thishappen?
The first attempt on his lifewas devastating, but of course,
the loss of his life was evenmore so.
Everything I assumed prior tothat, as far as working hard,
providing for your family, doingthe right thing, having a
(04:58):
strong faith and the Creator, Ibelieve in.
All that just turned upsidedown immediately and I went
through quite a period of a lotof grief, a lot of guilt and
after Michael's death I buriedmyself in my work One.
(05:19):
I loved it, I thought I wasgood at it, still do.
But that was a safe place andwe as a family pulled in, pulled
away from everybody, becausethat was the only thing that
felt safe.
Of course those were not theright things to do, but that was
our safety mechanism.
(05:39):
Thankfully, not too long afterMichael's death I was encouraged
to do it, to join a man'ssupport group, part of SAVE,
suicide awareness, voices ofeducation.
It was all males.
Up to that point I had neverbeen in a support group.
I was in the constructionindustry where you figure things
(06:04):
out I'm a boomer where youfigure things out yourself.
You don't go to anybody.
I can remember early on in lifeit was from my dad just tough
it up, tough it up.
So that helped me at leastacknowledge I wasn't alone.
Prior to Michael's death we gotinvolved in the National
(06:25):
Alliance of Mental Illness,another great group who I
volunteer for today and I havefor the last 10 years.
It began.
It allowed us to realize weweren't alone and it wasn't our
fault.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Then I want to ask you a question, bob, for someone
that you painted quite apicture of shock.
Surprise, your son died bysuicide and you did what she did
right.
You called yourself a boomerand owning a business in the
(07:05):
construction industry.
We know about the Sigmastereotype and culture with that
field.
So you got lost in your workand that was your potentially
healthy escape.
It's hey, I'm being a part ofsociety, I need to function all
those things that come with thatstage of shock and grief and
(07:29):
loss.
How did you get from that stageto wait?
Now you're talking about beingopen to attending AMI meetings
and save, and you're glad thatyou did.
How did you get to that point?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Well, I was at rock bottom after losing Michael.
It was like I didn't know if Icould go on and I grasped my
faith and pleaded with the God Ibelieve in helping.
I can't deal with this.
I don't know how to deal withit.
(08:08):
When I would submit at myweakest moment is when I was
open to other things.
Up to that point in my life Iwould not have been open.
It was just out of totaldespair.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
I can't imagine what that is like and I'll never
forget.
I had a client tell me oncethat when you lose a spouse, a
husband or a wife, you're awidow.
If you lose your parents,you're an orphan, but if you
lose a child it hurts so badthat there is no name for that.
(08:45):
So I can't fathom the type ofjust heart-wrenching pain and,
like you said, I don't know howI could go on.
I don't want to take you backthere to sensationalize, but for
potential family members andparents to realize that they're
not alone.
What were some of the thingsthat you questioned?
(09:07):
I've often heard people saytake me instead of him.
What were some of thoseoriginal thoughts that you went
through, that years later thatyou might still question?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Well.
After Michael's first attemptand it was clear he was not
doing well for four years Iworried about him every day,
every moment.
Is he okay?
And what else can we do to helpour son?
My prayers every day were Lord,give him some peace.
(09:43):
And little did I know thatprayer was answered, not in the
way I wanted, but I know at thispoint or at that point our son
no longer is tormented, he's atpeace.
So that was probably thebeginning of it, luke.
(10:03):
So I would tell people.
And then I've realized itwasn't my fault.
It's an illness.
A brother of mine whose deceaseddied from multiple illnesses of
the body, the main one beingcystic fibrosis, whereas lungs
(10:25):
just couldn't handle it anymore.
And I didn't blame him for that.
But I went through a period oftime when Michael was still with
us, like what's your problem?
Why can't you fix this?
And how bizarre It'd be liketelling my brother why can't you
fix cystic fibrosis.
(10:46):
It's just is.
So I have pain for that.
I've asked God to forgive mefor that.
And I think the other pieceafter losing a child, how would
I say it?
I will never heal from that.
I've lost both my parents, I'velost a brother and after a
(11:11):
while it made sense.
We knew we did all we could andthe markers the markers we have
in medicine dictated life wasleaving them.
That's not the case with my sonand that will trouble me at
times.
What else could we have done?
(11:32):
I don't know if I answered yourquestion, luke, but the big
thing is don't blame yourselfand forgive yourself if you lose
a loved one to suicide.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah, I think you did .
I think you normalize some ofthe things that people may
struggle voicing as if it'swrong or I shouldn't be thinking
or feeling this way, but it'snormal to question, wonder, a
lot of those thoughts, whethertaking responsibility or doubt
or worry.
That's a part of this thing fora lot of people.
(12:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
I don't even know where to begin, but I do want to
jump in to get more engaged interms of I relate as a son,
because my parents definitelywent through something similar,
except they were more blessed,but anyway.
So I wanted to ask about thething that you mentioned about
(12:32):
finding a group where you don'tfeel like you're not alone
anymore and I really think thatis a solution to many of our
mental health related problemswhere I find a community where
things can be really tough as afamily member of the person
who's suffering or the personwho suffers himself.
And also you mentioned aboutthis despair hitting a rock
(12:53):
bottom in a way, and I wanted tohear more about that process
where you were open to new ways,but also finding a community
where you felt you weren't aloneanymore.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Well, I think, because my world was turned
upside down.
It was like okay, what I'vedone in the past didn't bring
the results I wanted, so I haveto be open to try something new.
So it was at that rock bottompoint.
I was open.
And then, if you hit that pointmentally, now you're willing to
(13:29):
.
When people approach you,you're willing to say, you know,
yes.
So when the same group theleader of that called me and
said would you be willing tojoin us one Saturday a month?
So the invitation was important, but my willingness to even
(13:54):
accept it was important.
So those two got to go togetherand I stayed with that group
for about four years until Ifelt I was ready to move on.
I had gotten nourished and Ifelt I nourished others in the
group.
But now it was time for me todo something about it rather
(14:15):
than just stay in the safety ofthe group.
And then I was asked from aperson who I have worked with
now for about a dozen years.
She called my wife up and saidyou think Bob's ready to talk
about your journey?
I've never spoken.
(14:36):
I'm a painting contractor.
Yeah, I've made presentationsto our employees.
But at first I thought, whydon't I want to do that.
And she said your story isimportant, it's powerful.
So I said yes, and ever sincethat day I've been speaking.
And, luke, today I was askedI'm going to speak at a glass
(15:02):
glass build conference the endof October.
I mean, I would have neverthought I'd even be in the
position to be doing this, and Idon't advertise it's a higher
power is interceding in this.
Or I'd like to say Michael, myson up there is going, go for it
, dad, and I feel him at my side.
(15:22):
So through loss I've beenstrengthened.
But boy, it was hard work andit took a lot of effort.
But I had to be open to it andI don't think I would have been
had I not had such a devastatingloss.
I would have still been going.
Okay, just buck it up, workharder, you'll figure it out.
(15:44):
All that wasn't working.
I don't know if I answered yourquestion, but that's kind of
how I went from point A to pointB, but I didn't even see the
path.
The path was not chartered forme.
I just was willing to walkforward.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Yeah, as you're sharing.
It makes me think about thisline that is so used so often
that it's kind of like asignature line, but it means a
lot of the thing about thanksfor sharing how beautiful and
uniting that is, because, beingin recovery, I've also lost a
lot of friends.
They say the longer you staysober, the longer you stay in
(16:23):
recovery, the more funeralyou're going to go to which is
very hard to adapt to, buteventually to, the more I share
about my feelings with others.
It becomes more like acelebration or honoring of the
life that they lived and also,like you were pointing out
earlier too, that it's not ourfault, it's not that person's
fault, it's an illness, and alsothis is a fact that is hard to
(16:45):
accept but that death is part oflife, which I don't really want
to think that way, but itactually is true.
Death is part of life, but itreally unites and strengthen us.
Whenever we have connectionswhere we share memories and
honor the lives that they lived,it can be very healing and
connecting.
That's what I'm hearing fromyour story.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
And I think that is quite a silver lining.
And you talk about the Ughcan't even fathom devastation to
that opening and newunderstanding.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about your growth and
awareness of understandingmental health and your son's
journey towards that?
(17:29):
We talk about it.
I like how you talk about oldBob, new Bob, how you looked and
you perceived things as ownerof a business construction, work
, work, work but your bootstrapskeep going to what you
understand now about mentalillness.
Take us a little bit along thatjourney and that silver lining
(17:52):
that you have today.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Well, the industry I was brought up in and lived in
is a tough industry and it waslike you shop for work, that's a
given and then you do your workand you go home and all is good
and that's the industry.
(18:15):
I felt comfortable in thatindustry.
That was the rule.
That's the way it is.
Did I always shop at the top ofmy game?
No, there's anybody else.
But I had to show up to work.
I look back fairly early in mycareer when I was initially
(18:37):
became a supervisor.
There's an individual I stillhaunts me.
I was that old Bob and thisperson hadn't been showing up to
work.
Their work was not good.
They were a lot of anger.
The crew was tired of puttingup with that person and
(18:58):
basically the crew told me getthem out of here.
So I brought that individual inthe office and gave them a
presentation.
I did too many times.
Basically said, theindividual's name was Gary.
Gary, I don't know what yourproblem is.
You're not performing andunless you change, you can't
(19:21):
work here anymore.
I know I contributed to hisdeath.
Within two weeks he died bysuicide.
That still haunts me and ittook losing my son.
I stayed on that track, but ittook to losing my son oldest son
(19:42):
to realize.
You know, a lot of people haveillnesses that are impacting
them, so they can't be at thetop of their game and Bob
Swanson needs to accept thatnumber one.
And as an employer, I need tohelp people be better and not
(20:02):
just say it's your fault, no,and that you better fix yourself
.
That doesn't make sense.
So it took a long time, and thenwhat I realized, when I started
giving a feeling in the companythat we need to help each other
and it's okay to come forwardwith issues that are holding you
(20:27):
back, I was amazed at all thepeople that were open to telling
me their story and it felt sogood to help them.
So there's a flip side, onethat I feel so good about.
Old Bob told this individualwhat I just said and I
(20:48):
terminated that person, but thatallowed them to take a look at
their life and they have been inrecovery ever since and that
person, about six months,fleeted for the job back and he
and I have really had a joyousrelationship even after my
(21:11):
retirement, in that I helped himbut he helped me understand how
this all works and he's beenfeeling so good about himself
ever since he was able toaddress his issues and he's now
in recovery and I now understand.
I also have a close employee.
(21:34):
She called me a few weeks agoand she is now approaching her
100th day of sobriety.
People, they wouldn't have toldme those things years ago
because I wasn't gonna listen.
And so back to your point, zah.
(21:55):
I got this joy in my heart,knowing maybe I have helped some
people and rather than justthrowing people and say it is
their fault.
So I got long-winded, I get.
It's really joyful.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I have a fellow in my community who uses metaphor
that the most beautiful giftscome in ugly wrappings, and I've
been thinking about that.
That.
How true and how beautiful thatis that one of the many worst
experiences that I'veexperienced were actually the
gifts hidden and we can be quitedistracted by how it looks, but
(22:35):
it's actually something verygolden within, where there is
joy, and your story is inspiringto be a testament of that.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, there's been a lot of trial and tribulations
that you experienced as a lovedone with a family member
struggling with mental illness.
Can you shine some light onthat, when it comes to being
there even though you say you'reold Bob, but we're not always
old Bob there's times, as afamily member, as a parent, as a
(23:05):
husband, wife, son, that we aresupportive, when we're not full
of fear and anger.
Tell us about some of that lensof being a father and trying to
help your son with some ofthose mental illness things that
he was going through.
Shine some light on that for us.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Well, number one.
Nobody worked harder at tryingto cope and manage his illnesses
than Michael.
I'm now even more so, justastounded by how hard he worked
at it Keeping a log with apsychiatrist, taking his meds,
(23:49):
diet, exercise, sleep all thethings that someone trying to
manage an illness of the brainis told to do.
He left us a wonderful daughterwho today is 26 years old.
He, in his own pain, would doanything for his daughter and it
(24:11):
was clear on days that we woulddo stuff together as a family.
He wasn't feeling very well buthe would rise above that for
his daughter Also.
How do I?
At times maybe we enabled inthis manner, we made excuses for
(24:38):
him.
It's hard, the shame and stigma.
It was difficult to tell peopleour son was living with
illnesses of the brain and itwas really a closed group that
(24:58):
even knew that Michael wasliving with the illnesses of the
brain.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
This is real.
Why was that a struggle at thattime for you?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Shame.
I was ashamed of our son havingillnesses.
I didn't understand why can'the get better?
So it was a shame thing.
Reflection he was ashamed.
He would say dad, why can't Iget my crap together?
What's wrong with me?
I didn't know what to tell himand I think, fear.
(25:32):
Once he made an attempt on hislife, I was scared for him.
Am I gonna lose my son?
And this doesn't make sense.
So I think that was all wrappedin there.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
And to because of that shame, because of that fear
, not knowing what to do with itor how to get the support and
help, it can compound itself,can it?
Oh boy, yeah.
And we see that way too oftenand I think that's part of one
(26:08):
thing I wanted to shine light on, as it being Suicide Prevention
Week, that these feelings thatcan feel shameful, or whether
family members feel responsibleor man are I'm gonna say it this
way am I weak?
Is he weak?
These are feelings that peoplethink and question and feel bad
(26:31):
about even voicing it.
So thank you for sharing that,because these are real things
that happen to people and familymembers and loved ones
Absolutely, and I can onlyimagine when he passed what that
did to your shame.
What were some of thoseexperiences at that time when
(26:55):
what happened to your shame?
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Well, the support group I mentioned.
They require you to say I'myour name, who you lost as a
loved one, and to say out loudhow it happened.
Boy oh boy, I cried tears ofimmense pain.
(27:23):
They even get the words up.
I couldn't tell anybody thatwasn't a very, very close friend
or family member, for I don'tknow how long.
I wanna say a couple of yearsthat my oldest son died by
suicide.
So it took a long time to letgo of that.
(27:44):
And then it's back to what Zawsaid, celebrating when I could
finally say to someone today'sthe anniversary of my son's
death he died by suicide, wow.
But here's the crazy thing ofour society when you go on a
(28:09):
group and I call it just the oldstandard introduction bar talk,
you know who are, you blah,blah, blah.
And you finally maybe get alittle deeper.
Somebody says oh, what'd you dofor a career?
You got any kids?
And I've always said we havefour adult kids, I'll never
disown Michael, and but I haveone one's deceased.
(28:30):
Then they of course oh, whathappened?
He died by suicide.
Almost universally theconversation changes, unless
it's somebody that is like you,luke, and says that must be
(28:50):
really hurtful, tell me more.
But most people just let's goto another topic because I don't
wanna talk about that.
That increases the shame meter,you know.
It brings it back a little bitlike boy, you can't even accept
my hood and you're dumping thaton me.
(29:13):
So now you.
So I have to be careful of whatI do with that and I choose not
to pick that up.
That's on you, not me.
If you have shame and can'tdeal with my son's death, that's
your fault or your problem, notmine.
I'm not gonna pick that up.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Good for you.
Yeah, the other thing that I'mhearing in the spirit of this
month is how precious eachmoment is, especially from the
point of view of like a lot isbeing impacted.
You know, like because I stayreally active in recovery,
because you never know, a phonecall can be a determining point
for somebody who's about tocommit suicide.
(29:57):
And then he makes a phone calland you answer that.
You know, or it can be a songfrom a, you know it can be a
lyrics on the radio, or it canbe a smile.
Whatever it is, you know eachmoment is so precious because
that can have a really positiveimpact or kind of like a
determining, defining momentwhere they made a decision.
Because you know hope can be alittle tricky, like it cannot be
seen, you know it needs to besought sometimes, and that it
(30:20):
comes in at a surprising time orunexpected time where you're
like oh, this is why I'm stillliving and life is hopeful.
You know that's also somethingelse that I'm hearing.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
So out of respect and I respect you I would encourage
you and others not to saycommit suicide.
And here's why it's my beliefand NAMI, national
Anti-Minealism, also believesthis.
When we say commit, we'reblaming the person that they
(30:52):
wanted to die.
Our son did not want to die, hewanted his pain to end and his
illness has caused his death.
So I'd rather the term died bysuicide, died from suicide or
died because of illnesses of thebrain, something of that vein,
(31:13):
because I think the commit stillputs the blame on the person
and we're not gonna change thesuicide death.
So I looked up something and theyear our son died we had about
40,000 suicides in the UnitedStates.
Last year we had almost 50,000.
(31:35):
That's a 25% increase in 10years.
And as long as we feel likewhile they wanted to die or is
there a fault?
One, it's not gonna change thestatistics.
And number two, it keepspounding that shame on the
family members left behind, likeit was my fault your son died.
No, it wasn't.
It wasn't Michael's faulteither.
(31:57):
So I'm I just, out of respect,thought I'd respond to that
statement.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Yeah, that's also another the beauty of this
conversation where things openedup, because these are the
things that I would not havebeen educated by, you know,
because these are just commonterms that people use but having
some negative effect on somebeans, you know.
So I appreciate you correctingthat.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
And I didn't.
I was no different.
I use those words for losingour son also.
But I've learned, as you bothknow, words are powerful.
They can be powerful negativelyor positively.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
You absolutely well said and thank you for that
there's more hope in here.
There's more hope.
Your experience in Zal, throughthe Buddhist principles, talks
a lot about suffering andsuffering.
I think as Americans we havealways a negative connotation on
(33:01):
suffering, understandably so.
But in your heartache that Ican't fathom in form of
suffering, we're seeing thesilver lining and the advocacy.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout those key moments and you
shared a little bit about thatalready just how you went from
(33:23):
just tragedy to helpingcommunities grappling with
mental illnesses.
I mean that's quite a leap.
It's quite a leap.
I can't fathom that, I can'timagine.
I have a little zone, I havelittle ones and being able to,
it's courage, it's heart.
You have a heart that's beenaffected to not just cry when
(33:46):
this topic comes up.
How did this calling?
What is it?
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Well, I couldn't be angry the rest of my life.
Self pity doesn't get youanywhere.
I've always been.
I think a gift I have issolving problems.
And yet I had to say I couldn'thelp my son.
(34:15):
But how can I help others?
Because I, boy, I don't wantanyone to go through what we've
gone through.
And then it just became clear Igot involved in a construction
group called the NationalAlliance on Suicide Prevention
and I learned the constructionindustry.
We have more suicides than anyother industry and I realized
(34:40):
that the suicide rate in theconstruction industry is almost
five times the generalpopulation and I said now that's
an industry I can relate to.
Maybe I can help not only myhealing, but help others in the
industry I know something aboutand that again, some of these
(35:04):
things it's not me, it's somehigher power that's been
orchestrating this.
So I was asked to speak to aconstruction financial
management association webinarback in 2016 or 17.
And then, as you know, luke,the painters were grappling with
(35:25):
this and we started developingaids for at least to talk about
it and other industries, andsince then I've been working
with the laborers, thecarpenters, and just I'm giving
back to an industry I loved andhopefully I'm helping others and
(35:45):
I know I am because after anypresentation I make, there's
usually one or two people comeup or more.
So, again, because it'sdifficult is I make in an email,
I make it a phone call and manypeople have told me, in fact,
one that's still again, I feeljoyful.
(36:06):
A fellow painting contractor Ispoke at a painting contracting
forum like 2019 maybe and hesent me an email later that your
presentation today gave me thecourage to address my issues and
(36:29):
without that I wouldn't be heretoday.
My goodness, that's humblingbut joyful both, in that maybe I
had a little measure of helpingthat person address their
issues and have the courage tosay I would not be alive today
(36:51):
had you not been present.
And after every presentation Imake, including the classes I
taught with you, luke, I'mabsolutely emotionally drained
every time and I also realizecertain places I cannot go as
(37:15):
far as talking about Michael'slife.
I won't go there.
It's still too painful.
So I believe in self-care verystrongly.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
I think that's a perfect example of self-care
that you're not sacrificing yourhealth and well-being for
potentially helping others.
Like you said, and I remember acouple trainings back that we
did, we were doing peer supportfor substance abuse and mental
(37:48):
health, peer supports forconstruction industry, and I
remember being unbelievablydrained after that and one of
the reasons being that we have aclose friend of ours that was
participating who just lost ason.
How many days before we did thattraining 30, 36, 46 days before
(38:10):
we gave that training and abunch of the things that we're
talking about today he was goingthrough and we were there to
support him and I justremembered just being next to
him and touching his back andtalking about suicide prevention
(38:31):
and awareness and mentalillness and how they're so
interrelated and seeing ourfriends struggle.
That was draining for me.
I was there to support him butthat was a tough three days.
That was a tough three days.
So that self-care of noticingand being aware of that and we
(38:54):
were giving this training to 30people from around the US and
Canada, but also there with ourfriend.
That is indescribable heartachefor most people, took a lot of
energy, took a lot of energy.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
So, luke, our dear friend, sunday will be one year
since his loss.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
And one thing I learned from you, bob and this
was my sure I'll call itignorance, my stigma that I
learned from you doing a lot ofthese suicide awareness and
prevention trainings, that, ohmy, until you told me that you
wanted phone calls on that dayof your son's passing, michael's
(39:38):
passing, I never would havethought to do that and I never
felt that you wanted to connectwith people during that day and
not just hold up.
That was my stigma, that was myillness.
The example you gave earlier,as soon as you mentioned as my
son passed from suicide, peoplego inward and I go, wait a
(40:04):
minute, I'm here to support myfriend Bob.
Of course I'm going to put thaton my calendar and give him a
call To me.
It's the connection piece.
You're going to that meetingand crying and using that
support to connect with peopleand not be alone in that grief
(40:24):
process.
Eventually, that silver liningof I certainly didn't want to do
it because of the sacrifice ofyour son, but you get to give
back in a way that you neverthought you would or could.
That's not everybody's storywhen it comes to suicide, but
boy is that powerful.
Yeah, I'll be calling him comenext weekend.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Well then, I made a presentation to a contracting
firm in May and unfortunately,they lost an employee to suicide
within that month.
The employer called me in griefwithin hours after he found out
and he said what should we do?
(41:09):
I said, well, what would you doif an employee died from a
heart attack or a car accident?
He listed off.
I said it's no different thatfamily's grieving and it speaks
to what you just said, Luke weas a society tend to treat it
different.
That family who lost theemployee, the loved one, to
(41:35):
suicide was hurting just evenmore so than if they had lost
someone to a car accident.
But we tend to withdraw, likeyou said, and all that does is
increase the grief and the shameand the pain of the loved ones
(41:56):
when they're needing it evenmore so.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yeah, what would you tell and I think you're telling
us in a bunch of different waysalready what would you tell the
family member who's strugglingwith grief of a loved one they
lost by suicide?
What would you tell that person?
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Well, number one, I don't have all the answers.
I can share part of my story.
It would be well.
I have a dear friend who lostan adult child to cancer within
the last six months and I saidlosing a child is immensely
(42:45):
painful, but the key is youcan't blame yourself If you do
the what if I wish we would havedone.
There's no end to that.
Some things we just don'tunderstand and you have to come
to some acceptance of that.
(43:05):
And then I would really stresswhat would they want you to do?
Would Michael have wanted me tobe an angry man, bitter?
No, our son was a loving,caring person who happened to
have a number of illnesses.
(43:25):
I know Michael would be angrywith me if I was just a bitter
old man.
He would want me to help others.
So I would throw it that way.
What would your loved one wantyou to do now, once you start
the healing process?
(43:45):
And then there's hardly aperson would say well, they want
me to just be angry.
No, they'd want you to carry ontheir legacy and be loving to
others and the family that losta loved one to cancer.
He's going to get involved withdemanding, and their community,
(44:07):
more cancer research.
So I would challenge the familyand right after the grief of
losing someone, they're notgoing to hear that, but remind
them of that as time goes on.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah, it's really good.
It's probably important to.
I didn't have this in my notes,but I think this is important
to talk about.
We've done education andawareness on this topic a couple
, more than a couple times, andwhen it comes to looking at
(44:46):
signs and red flags, can youshare whether it's Michaels or
in general, that you're aware ofwhen it comes to signs or red
flags of suicide that can leadto pervention with these red
flags?
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Well, I didn't know any of those signs.
I do today.
But again I would say thatbecause of the Stakeman shame of
suicide, the signs are hard toread.
I don't know too many caseswhere people have just said
today, at tomorrow, at 10 am,I'm going to end my life.
(45:29):
It's a gradual process.
I've also learned thatunfortunately, they've studied
people who have survivedsuicides About 25%.
The cycle of the sequencebetween idea, plan and action
was very, very quick 50%, anhour or less time.
(45:55):
So it's not.
It's maybe people have suicidalthoughts running on and off, on
and off, but they actually takethe act and sometimes be very
immediate.
Something triggers it I'd liketo use in my presentations.
People living with a mentalillness have a dirty windshield.
They're not seeing maybe anyclear outcomes, they lose hope
(46:22):
and I think our son lost hope.
So back to your question.
I would say some warning signsbehavioral changes, hopelessness
, whether they're not engaged,they don't care about anything
tomorrow.
Verbal statements I won't bearound here very much longer.
Nobody cares if I'd be dead oralive.
(46:43):
These aren't trying to getattention.
These are cries for help.
So I think every one of thoseis a serious something requiring
a serious attention Losing yourfreedom Built in all these are
losing hope and the shame youget put in jail for a couple
(47:07):
days for something that you'reashamed of.
Now you're losing control ofyour life.
We all like to think we're incontrol of our lives and those
of us you in recovery.
And now I'm gonna say I'm inrecovery, I'm a recovery suicide
survivor.
I realize I'm not in control ofvery much, so it's a matter of
(47:31):
recognizing that people givingout those warning signs and
signals they're crying for help,but they don't know how to say
it.
So we need to listen better.
We need to watch behavior muchbetter.
And then, when we're fragilegoing through a divorce, going
through loss of a job, goingthrough major oh, the Centers
(47:54):
for Disease Control studied allsuicides after 2017.
29% were within two weeks of alife-changing event.
So as we go throughlife-changing events, we're
fragile.
I was fragile after losing myson, so those are signal signs
(48:17):
that we have to really bereceptive to.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Yeah, and you talk about ideations, thoughts, plan
action and that can happen.
You said what an hour timeframe and that's something that
a lot of times, when peoplethink it, that might be going on
, that's something that peopleshy away from and we teach in
(48:43):
our advocacy unit or groups thatwe talk ask the question.
If you're worried about someone, ask them are you thinking of
suicide, are you suicidal rightnow?
Be present with that person.
To me, that is a powerful thingbecause that's what that can do
when someone has, whether it'sdepression, the ultimate level
(49:05):
of isolation where suicidebecomes a legitimate solution
and option.
There's a lack of connection,there's shame, there's mental
illness.
So being present enough to askthat person are you suicidal
right now?
That can potentially save alife.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Well, I had the privilege to listen to an
individual.
Kevin Hines is his name.
He's one of only a couple dozenwho have survived an attempt
off the Golden Gate Bridge.
And here's where his words.
He's standing by the railingand he said if anyone had just
(49:47):
come up to me and said, are youokay, how can I help?
Nobody did that and he felt soalone.
And that's he said.
I would have probably not goneover the railing if somebody had
just made me aware of I wasimportant.
(50:08):
He felt no worth and no hope.
But now he's living to tellthat story.
And, boy, if you ever had go onYouTube, powerful story, kevin
Hines.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
I was very fortunate and I do believe fortunate to
work with a suicide preventionteam with the Veterans Affairs
and VA and part of Maryland andthere would literally be
veterans with red flags on theirsystem and part of the suicide
prevention team is we would callthese veterans and there was
(50:46):
more than one occasion where Icalled them and yes, I'm here
with I'm looking at a bunch ofpills and my training kicked in
and I was present with them andI connected with them and I was
very fortunate because of thatconnection that we were able to
help them do so.
That happened more than oneoccasion and it just so happened
(51:09):
that was one of the veteransthat I called that day and at
that time just the connectionwas enough to get him the help
that he needed that time.
But that can make thedifference.
So I'll give you some yourBuddhist perspective on things
right now, as we don't a lot oftopics.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
Huh, yeah, this has been really good, and I don't
know what comes to mind.
And what I'm hearing is alsohow important it is for us to
have a sense of belonging, youknow, because we are social
animals and when we have thatdisengagement, that's where
thoughts become so loud andthose ideas turn into action.
You know very quickly, becausewhy do I even exist?
(51:50):
You know, I don't matter.
But that little conversationhow are you feeling?
You know, can make a hugedifference, like really being
present.
So I really appreciateeverything that you're doing,
bob, because this is reallyalmost like a yeah, pretty much
educating, you know, the societyto look at it differently, but
also for people to open up.
But from the Buddhist point ofview, you know what I am hearing
(52:14):
and what I'm processing.
How I'm processing all this isthe idea of pain.
You know pain is inevitable.
Might as well make a good useout of it, you know.
So you are a good example ofmaking a good use out of it, of
your own personal pain, but alsoreaching out to other people
and helping others.
So, yeah, I really appreciateit.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
I had a slogan on my wall in the office change with
inevitable, growth is optional.
And you could say the sameabout pain.
Pain is inevitable, growth isoptional.
You can be stuck in that painand resist it or and that will
(52:59):
do again, or try to do somethingabout it, and I feel blessed
that I'm given the opportunityto do something about it and
honoring the son that I dearlyloved and lost and still miss.
But I will keep doing this aslong as people find it valuable.
(53:20):
I really appreciate theopportunity to join both of you
today.
Thank you, yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
I know you know this and believe this, just affecting
one person in the rightdirection makes it all
worthwhile.
Absolutely well, before we wrapup, but now you know a couple
and we'll put this in the shownotes do you mind sharing some
awesome for referral services ormental health groups or suicide
(53:49):
prevention groups that, off thetop of your head, putting you
on this box?
I know you know quite a bit ofthem that you'd recommend and
I'll put in the notes afterwards.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
American Foundation for suicide prevention excellent
group.
Suicide awareness.
Voices of education excellentgroup, I would also say National
Alliance on mental illness.
They have some very goodinformation about suicide
prevention.
National Institute of Health isanother good resource.
(54:22):
And then two courses.
I happen to teach one of them,qpr question persuade refer the
QPR Institute.
It's about an hour and a halfcourse.
It tells you some of thosethings.
One, looking at the warningsigns how do you ask that
question?
How do you persuade somebody toget help?
(54:45):
And then, having resources,another very good course it's a
little longer is it's aneight-hour course mental health
first aid.
Many of us took basic first aidat some point in our lives to
know what to do in casesomebody's bleeding, not
breathing, etc.
This goes into quite a bit moredepth of how do you recognize
(55:08):
someone's a mental crisis andhow do you recognize that
they're suicidal, and then whatdo you do about it and how can
you help them get through that.
So those are some things thatcome right away to mind and just
like there's a 911 number,isn't there a national?
national suicide, it's not justnational suicide.
(55:29):
So 988, thank you Luke, it willrefer you to a local crisis
center.
It goes off your cell phone soif I was traveling in Virginia
and I called the 988 number, itwould be thinking I'm in
Minnesota, so it referred to meto a Minnesota crisis line.
But 988's a national crisisline, so it's both for if
(55:56):
someone's in a mental crisissituation or just struggling to
the point also of being suicidal, and it's it's staff 24-7 by
crisis individuals.
Another resource if you do call911 because it's an imminent
danger, ask for a crisisintervention team.
Speaker 1 (56:18):
Law enforcement agencies throughout the United
States are training people howto deal with someone in mental
crisis, so ask for a crisisintervention team, thank you so
much for joining us today inthis profoundly moving journey
that we've that you've beenthrough, and I think this is a
powerful episode.
(56:38):
Remember Bob's story reminds usthat even in the darkest
moments, there's room for hope,transformation and advocacy.
If you're moved by Bob'sjourney and want to learn more,
we'll be sharing resources thatyou can explore in the notes,
and a huge thank you to Saul and, of course, bob for sharing his
heart with us.
Just stay tuned for moretransformative conversations and
(57:01):
, until then, take care, becompassionate and never
underestimate the power of yourstory.
My name is Luke.
This is all.
We'll see you next time, see,yeah, thank you, bob thank you
to both of you.
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