June 26, 2023 • 60 mins
Discover how the power of the 12-Step Program principles can transform lives and guide individuals toward a path of health, happiness, and personal fulfillment in our enlightening conversation with Harold Greene. We can apply these principles even if we don't struggle with addiction. Their wisdom can guide us on a transformative journey, helping us uncover our true potential, connect with others on a deeper level, and ultimately live a more fulfilling and purpose-driven life. Harold shares his experience teaching these principles at Christopher Place Training Academy, providing tools for ex-offenders to reintegrate into society.
Together, we explore the importance of changing how we think to change how we act and how these universal principles can foster resilience and personal growth, no matter your situation! Harold discusses the value of self-reflection, willingness, and service, as well as the significance of charity, love, and spiritual growth within the principles of the 12-Step Program. Learn how these principles can lead to profound transformations and help individuals overcome past obstacles. Join us as we dive into inspiring stories and insights from Harold Greene.
Videos on our YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@RecoveryCollective
This episode has a video with audio!
https://youtu.be/OGozI8BkyWM
Visit our website!
Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Zaw Maw — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Luke DeBoy — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
(240) 813-8135
New Episodes are released every Monday.
Please send your questions to: luke@recoverycollectivemd.com
Thanks for listening, and please subscribe/comment/review/follow/like; if you think others would benefit from the podcast episode, share with others, as COLLECTIVELY, we can find solutions to all things health and wellness.
Check us on social media:
Facebook: @RecoveryCollectiveMd
YouTube: @RecoveryCollective
Instagram: @recovery_collective_md
TikTok: @lukederecoverycollective
The episodes contain content, including information provided by guests, intended for perspective, informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, legal, or other advice. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you have a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 or 9-8-8
Sign up for our Newsletter
https://www.recoverycollectivemd.com/newsletter
Say Thank You, Leave a Review for the Recovery Collective
Google Review
YouTube Channel
Watch/Listen
Our Website
Recovery Collective
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Okay, welcome to A Therapist of Buddhist in You.
Brought to you by the RecoveryCollective in Annapolis,
maryland, it's a podcast wherewe journey through
self-discovery and collectivegrowth.
I'm your co-host, luke Duboy, atherapist passionate about all
things health and wellness, andjoining me on this enlightening
adventure is my co-host, who'sas mindful about meditation as
(00:23):
he is of suffering Zong-A.
Hey, luke, good to be here again, hello everyone, And Zong-A is
a wise and compassionateBuddhist and practitioner and
life coach.
Together, we'll explore theintersections of psychology,
spirituality, health andwellness, offering practical
insights along the way.
Thanks for tuning in andjoining our collective community
(00:45):
.
Please communicate with us andother listeners on Facebook,
Instagram and YouTube.
Links are provided in theepisode notes.
We're here to provide you withvaluable tools, perspectives.
That has the ability topotentially transform your life.
If you find our podcast helpful, we greatly appreciate your
support.
We like to call it ourhandshake agreement.
(01:05):
We provide you with some deepdives and valuable information,
and you can leave a like,comment, subscribe and, most
importantly, share our podcastwith others.
If you'd like to monetarilythank us, we do have that option
as well, and you can just clickthe donate button.
Remember, it's through ourcollective efforts that we can
uncover solutions to all thingshealth and wellness.
So it's all.
(01:25):
Today We've got a prettyinteresting topic and we're
looking at the 12-StepPrinciples and Values Behind the
Principles to Outside 12-StepRecovery.
The 12-Step Program originatedfrom Alcoholics Anonymous, a
fellowship founded in 1935 byBill Wilson and Dr Bob Smith.
It was developed as a method toovercome alcohol addiction and
(01:47):
sheeps of variety.
12-steps provide a structuredapproach to self-reflection,
personal growth and spiritualdevelopment.
Over time, the 12-Steps gainrecognition of their
effectiveness in helpingindividuals recover from
addiction and transform theirlives.
The principles embedded in the12-Step, such as honesty,
humility, willingness andservice, resonated with people
(02:10):
facing various challenges beyondproblems pertaining to alcohol
use.
As a therapist and a certifiedalcohol and drug counselor, I
see the beauty of the 12-Stepsreally lies in their universal
applicability.
The principles and practice canbe adapted to address various
issues, including personaldevelopment, some aspects of
(02:30):
mental health relationships, andeven help determine your life
choices.
Many individuals, organizationsand certainly treatment
facilities have recognized thesevalues and these principles and
integrate them into theirprograms.
We want to shed light on thepower of these principles beyond
their original context andhighlight how they can support
you By featuring our expertguest today.
(02:53):
He'll share how he brings theseprinciples to different settings
and populations.
So, whether you're familiarwith the 12-Steps or are
entirely new to thistransformative framework, get
ready to be inspired andcaptivated by the stories and
insights that lie ahead.
We invite you to open your mindto the possibilities as we
explore the incredible ways the12-Steps and principles shape
(03:13):
lives, foster resilience, guideindividuals towards the path of
health, happiness and personalfulfillment.
Stay tuned for an enlighteningconversation with Harold Green.
Harold, thank you so much fordoing this today.
We're truly honored to have youhere as our guest.
It's my privilege.
Yeah, so I know we're bringingyou on in terms of how 12-Step
(03:41):
principles and values can helpAnd, out of respect, we're not
going to go in depth of theGreater Baltimore Area Training
Academy, where you provide theseservices, But tell us a little
bit about that What you do atthis Training Academy in the
(04:04):
Greater Baltimore Area and howit's making a difference in the
lives of many.
We're excited here to learnmore about your teachings.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Thank you, Luke, And it might be useful for me to
just simply read an opening forthe Christopher Place Employment
and Training Academy.
Aware that all human familiesare entitled to having their
basic needs met, we make acommitment to journey with the
(04:33):
poor and homeless men as theyreclaim a life of
self-determination and stability.
We invite men to engage in aprocess of change that moves men
from being homeless topermanent, stable living, that
prepares men to obtain andmaintain full employment and
(04:55):
that empowers men to live a lifefree of drugs.
Christopher Place is anemployment agency with a
residential component thatsupports addiction recovery.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Thank you, and you've been working with this Academy
for how many years now?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
It'll get to be 23, 24 years.
I started 2005 at the oldfacility and they moved into a
brand new facility over on GreenMountain Avenue in Baltimore.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And these are men and women or men, no only men Men
Academy that are helping themcome from an incarcerated lockup
facility.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
To the quote unquote life outside Well let me go back
and explain a little bit.
The men that come toChristopher Place have recently
been expunged from incarceration.
They go through a six monthapplication process and at the
(06:13):
end of that process they come toChristopher Place.
They're called open and primarymembers.
at that time They go through a16 week program and they move
into the next phase, which isinterviewing and resume writing
(06:35):
and moving in.
at the same time, While they'regoing through my process, they
are also given opportunities tomeet with other facilitators.
They learn interviewing skills,they learn resume writing, they
learn speaking correctly,interviewing and those kinds of
(06:58):
things.
So there's a full open programfor all the men that come
through in the beginning.
It goes in phases and it lastsapproximately 15 weeks.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
And what would you consider your part of the
program?
Obviously, writing skills,resume building and things like
that.
You know what that is, but whatwould you consider your piece
of the pie for them?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Let me see I can put this in a context that, because
I could go on for the rest ofthe month talking about what I
do, but essentially what I do isexplain to men that life
(07:46):
doesn't change because you'refree.
Life will continue to come atyou hard and fast if you haven't
learned how to change the wayyou think.
Essentially, that's what I do.
I give men tools so that theycan use them in the process of
changing the way they think.
(08:07):
I explain to them that we areour experience.
That's what we are.
We are our experience.
That is whatever had beenpreviously in our lives is who
we become To change.
That is a difficult process andit's not simple.
(08:27):
What you need is somefundamental tools that can allow
you to open your mind andaccept new ideas.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Can I imagine that's what you're teaching them?
some fundamental tools to dothat?
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
And before we go down that fun path and I'm looking
forward to go down how did youget involved in this process?
There's people that do resumebuilding.
There's people that do allforms of launching back into
society and life skills.
How did people go?
obviously, this part isvaluable.
How did you get involved?
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Well, i've been a teacher for most of my adult
life.
I taught in the military, itaught history in high school
and now I'm teaching at atraining school for ex-offenders
.
The idea that I have somefundamental ideas that I can
(09:29):
provide to anyone, using thesame principles that they use in
recovery programs, allow thoseprinciples to be used to help
change the way people think andhow they act.
Those principles are not new.
The principles that we use areas old as time itself.
(09:53):
The reason they work arebecause they are true principles
And if we apply themconsistently, we can use those
same ideas to help us change theway we think, and that's
essentially what we do.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
And your program?
is this a 16-week program?
How long do you teach this withthese ex-offenders?
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Well, I started in 19,.
no, I started in 2005.
I retired.
I was director of housing forthe city of Annapolis.
I have a dear friend of minewho is a priest that has been
working with Christopher Placefor a very long time.
His name is Father Joe Madonna,And when I left the city he
(10:44):
approached me and asked if Iwould be willing to participate
in a program that helps trainand give new opportunities to
men coming back out from prison.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Is there an average length people are locked up
before they see you?
Is it months?
Is it years?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Some of them have been for years.
I don't know the exact numberof those That's not general
information, But many of them Ican say reasonably well that
they have been in sight of Earth, or some have been in sight for
quite a few years.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yeah, that's a very powerful way of freeing people,
which to me means that innerlife reflects the outer reality.
So if I'm just fixing what's inthe outer and not change my
inner life, same problem isgoing to occur.
So that's what I'm hearing.
What you're saying, that whenwe challenge our thinking is to
(11:50):
change my personal reality andthe outer reality catches up.
But I do want to ask too maybethis can, maybe Luke can, direct
us to is that, speaking out ofmy own personal experience and I
want to hear your experiencehelping these people is that the
spiritual principles are great,but then there needs to be also
a common language where thosespiritual principles are
(12:13):
receptive?
you know, because I heard thesefirst principles but I wasn't
ready And whatever was beingcommunicated to me, i wasn't
receptive.
So in this case, are theretools that are useful in terms
of speaking to them directly,where they become receptive to
these principles?
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Well, when the men come into date, they go through
a primary beginner's process inthe beginning, and that's where
they understand exactly whatthey're there for, what they can
expect to happen, and encouragethem to begin to use the simple
(12:53):
ideas that we provide for themto change their lives when they
leave.
For the most part, the men thatcome there have not had
experience.
Some do have had someexperience with recovery
programs and 12-step programs,but many of them do not, and so
(13:14):
we need to start off byexplaining that what it is and
how it works, and it's somethingI mentioned earlier.
We are our experience.
It's one of the things I reallytry to get across.
We are our experience, and ifyou have had a good experience
during your life, you usuallyare successful and move forward.
(13:41):
But if you have had badexperiences, they become your
experience and you continue touse those and they become
depressed.
So the first thing we need todo is look at those experiences.
Look at those experiences andbe prepared.
(14:01):
Once you understand what theyare and how they've held you
back, we can give you some toolsto help you motivate yourself
to change the way you think.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
What's the buy-in?
Because I think as a therapistand as a meditation and life
coach.
Most of the time we get peoplethat are motivated to see us,
but every once in a while wedon't.
We get to.
I imagine you do too.
We get to build the rapport andthat connection And you're
saying it sounds like you'resaying you do that by the powers
and our experiences.
(14:38):
I imagine there's a percentageof people that wait a minute.
What are we learning in thisclass, Like?
I hear what you're saying, butwhat am I getting out of this?
What am I getting out oftherapy?
What am I getting out ofworking with, all with?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
I hear you.
It's not that simple.
Let me give you an idea of whathappens when they come in and
we give them a handout thattells them exactly what we're
(15:15):
going to do.
The course of instruction willact as an adjunct to the GED
Literal Adult Basic EducationProgram provided by this Academy
to enhance basic living skillsand create an atmosphere for
re-entry into the community.
(15:36):
The course of study willdevelop a fundamental ability by
the individuals to recognizeand moderate past behaviors.
This will include instructionand basic life skills.
The object will be seamlesslytransitioned into the final
(15:57):
Academy objective, the abilityto live in a real world.
Essentially, that's what we tellthem when they come in.
This is a course of study thatwill help you not make the same
mistakes you made before youcame in, but give you an
(16:17):
opportunity to look at thosemistakes and make a decision to
motivate yourself not to makethe same mistakes again.
Now, that's not easy.
Most people have a set process,the way they analyze and
(16:37):
understand whatever, and tryingto change that from the time
they were born until the time weget them is not an easy task.
What has to be understood bynot only the men, but by the,
but by the teachers Teaching isthat it's not simple, but it's
(17:04):
not complicated.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
So there's these fundamental living skills that
you're teaching them, and you'reusing this common denominator
that we call the principles ofthe 12 steps.
So expand a little bit more onhow you do that.
What is your teaching?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
style.
Sure, that's where I come in.
The principles that we talkabout are not new.
The principles that we use atChristopher Place and almost in
(17:44):
every facility that addressesproblems.
Then, as a matter of fact,there's something like 300
programs that use 12 principles.
There's everything.
There's a program that treatspeople who have dislike for
horses.
(18:04):
So there are a lot of different12 step programs that use these
basic principles, and let mejust read off what they are
Acceptance Acceptance One of themost valuable principles that
we learn.
Faith Faith, and it has nothingto do with religion.
(18:28):
If you have a practice ofreligion, that's fine, but we're
talking about the power withinyou and the idea that you have a
power within you that you canuse to access the change in your
life.
Surrender and trust.
It means that you have to giveup the old ways and trust a new
(18:52):
set of principles that can helpyou change your life.
Courage, which is almostunderstandable.
You have to want to do it andthen have the strength and
conviction to do it.
Willingness is probably one ofthe most important.
If you aren't willing and beable to motivate yourself,
(19:15):
nothing happens.
Humility Humility is a verycurious adjective.
Humility, in the context thatwe use.
It means that you know who youare.
Humility means you know oneself, and that's what we're starting
for to help you understand whoyou really are.
(19:36):
I like to think of what we dowith these principles.
I use the analogy of a puzzle.
Everybody, as a child, has donepuzzles one way or another, and
the idea of a puzzle is toconnect the dots.
You connect the dots in thepuzzle and when you've connected
(19:59):
all the dots, there's a picture, and that picture is you, and
the 12 steps are the dots.
You connect the dots one by onein a process and at the end of
that process you know who youare.
And that's humility.
And there's a variety of otherconcepts that we use, but
(20:24):
they're down the road a littlebit.
In the beginning.
We have to stress forgiveness,freedom, perseverance, patience
and then, finally, charity andlove.
Those are simple ideas thatmost people don't use.
They know them, they've heardof them, but to apply them into
(20:47):
your life on a consistent basisis very difficult.
What we try to do is encouragethe men to take these ideas and
use them consistently.
We give them the opportunity toask questions, be skeptical,
(21:11):
but understand that the processthat we're providing for them
works and it has for a very longtime.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah, those are really powerful principles and
concepts, and I want to go backto what you have begun with
about experience.
There's a concept in ourmeditation and in our tradition
about direct experience Thatwhen I'm meditating, a teacher
or a meditation teacher can belike this is how it feels like
to breathe in, breathe out orgive all these techniques, but
(21:43):
they don't mean anything until Ihave a direct experience of oh,
this is how it feels like tobreathe in, or this is how it
feels like you have a pausebetween in-breath and the
out-breath, and then that reallyuncovers so many things.
Because I think aboutexperiences also, that I might
see Luke, and Luke who I see isactually through my own eyes.
(22:04):
It's actually my reality,although Luke doesn't exist
outside of me.
So, in a way, my senses createmy reality.
So it's actually good news andbad news, but it's mostly good
news because if I don't like myreality, i can change how I
interpret or how I see the world, in a way.
So it makes me think of that,as you're sharing, and also
(22:25):
these principles too, about thespirituality since you were
talking about to remember who wetruly are, is that some people
think that spirituality is likeadding more, but it's actually
uncovering the layers that wehave built up over the years.
So that really strikes core.
With me about to discover whowe truly are is not to add more,
(22:47):
but to get rid of things thatare blocking the ways.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Very good, exactly, you got it.
You've been paying attention.
One of the things that we findparticularly useful is we have a
simple saying if you change theway you think, you change the
way you act.
(23:11):
And we provide process ofmeditation.
Now you can go and Google ahundred different ways to
meditate.
There's many ways to meditate,as there are people.
I learned to meditate from aBuddhist priest named Lao Su And
(23:33):
he said think about the mosthappiest, the most enjoyable
time you have ever had in yourlife.
Ever, michael, had to go backto when you were a little kid to
find that happy, joyful timeand place.
But he said practice, practicegoing to close your eyes and go
(23:57):
back to that time and place.
Do it over and over and overagain until your mind relaxes
and opens.
When I was a little kid, myfamily has a house in South
Carolina right on the back creek.
We used to go skintubing backthere, but they have the largest
catfish you have ever seen inthat creek.
(24:20):
I caught a catfish when I was alittle kid, almost as big as I
am, but I could go to that creek, sit on a log with a fishing
pole and nobody could find me.
It was the quietest,peacefulest place I've ever been
to.
Well, i can pull up to atraffic light, close my eyes and
I'm sitting on that log with afishing pole and my mind opens,
(24:44):
and I encourage people to dothat.
Now, that may not work for youit works for me, fine, but you
can find an idea that will allowyou to open your mind.
The only condition is that youhave to want to do it,
willingness to do it, and weencourage the men to begin with
(25:10):
that That's where we start Openyour mind so that you can allow
new ideas to come in, becausethat's what you're going to get.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
And your experience, your example just resonates with
me of OK, we're open our mindof willingness, but, man,
there's acceptance that Haroldjust had a good experience, The
fundamental experience in hischildhood.
That was good and he can gothere anytime he wants.
Ok, I can be open minded tothat.
(25:43):
He's starting me off with there?
OK, I'm listening.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
That's good, and the only condition for that is
consistency They talk about.
We have many, many differentways to meditate.
As I said before, you can goonline and find 100 different
(26:07):
ways to do it.
The whole point of meditationis to open your mind.
Most people think you go to laydown and go to sleep or
something.
When you meditate in you.
The idea is to open your mind,allow new ideas to come in.
That's what meditation is allabout.
It's not about trying topromote or invent new ideas.
(26:33):
It's to be able to accept ideasthat will be in your best
interest, and if you can do that, the meditation works.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, if it's OK, i'd like to focus on that idea of
that concept of willingness Ithink it will be beneficial to
the listeners and for myself aswell And also hear your
expertise on that, based onpeople that you've helped with,
because for me it's been reallyinteresting, especially for a
12-star community which I joinedas well.
Willingness came out of pain.
(27:05):
I couldn't stand it anymore.
For me, that's OK, but forpeople who don't really hit any
kind of bottom, willingness isnot something that can be
created.
So how do you uncover that?
Because that motivation, i canwant something.
But if I'm wanting that forsomeone else or if it's
superficial, when things gettough I'll be like, actually I
(27:28):
don't really want it, it's notthat important.
But then if it's a decisionwithin me that I really want it,
the willingness is there.
Nothing can stop me.
So I feel like that is a reallykey principle for many people
who wanted to change, but thenthe willingness is not really
there.
How can we help for that?
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Zahya, you're absolutely correct, and that's
really what the problem is.
Most people don't even havenever experienced that.
They have no idea what you'retalking about.
When you talk to you, begin totalk about willingness to change
the way you think They look atyou like you're nuts.
Willingness to change meansthat you can focus on what
(28:15):
happened to you, look insideyourself.
In some 12-step programs we callit take an inventory.
Take an inventory By that wemean look at the things that
have been good in your life andhave helped you promote, and
look at the things that havecreated problems in your life.
Write them down, look at themAnd then become willing to be
(28:40):
rid of them.
And then they say, well, how doyou do that?
Well, the way you do that iswhat we just talked about.
You meditate, you open yourmind and allow those ideas to go
away and allow new ideas tocome in.
Now nobody's going to come downand wave a magic wand and you go
(29:01):
skipping through the two levels.
It's not going to happen Ifyou're going to change and
become willing and motivateyourself to do it.
It takes time, it takes effortAnd it takes wanting to do it,
willingness to do it,willingness to change.
If you're not willing, might aswell go home.
(29:23):
If you're willing to change,the processes there for you to
do and what we tried toencourage the men to do is to
stop Don't try and grab it allat once.
Take it step by step andunderstand that willingness
comes from motivation,determination that you want to
(29:47):
change and not go back to thelife you had before you came
here.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
It sounds like that principle of willingness allows
this open-mindedness and abilityto make, hopefully, not just a
perspective change but an actualchange that can lead to more
healthy decisions and way oflife.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
That's the idea, that's the goal, that's the
objective And it's important tounderstand.
For me to make it clear thatit's not going to happen all at
once.
It takes time.
It took a long time to get theway you are now.
It's going to take time to undothat, and the first thing that
(30:33):
in order to make that happen, isto look at it.
Look at it.
Take an inventory.
Take an inventory.
I like the way they do it insome programs.
They'll say if you own abusiness and you are a good
businessman, once a year atleast you go back in your stock
(30:53):
room.
You look up on the shelf andyou see some stock that had gone
bad.
You have to get rid of it, butyou have a lot of stock that's
still good and you can use.
You can do it.
Or a limiter is exactly thesame thing.
You've got some ideas that arekicking your butt for a long
time.
You need to look at that, bewilling to accept what they are
(31:16):
and then make a decision thatyou want to change.
Then the principles come toeffect and it's thought to work.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, i heard you said it.
The willingness is one of theprinciples, and then there's
this level of acceptance thathas to come with it.
You've been working with thispopulation for since 2006, i
believe you said 2005.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
I started 2005.
Every day since then In 2000,.
What was it?
When did the pandemic start?
2002, 2000.
Brown and the other.
In any event, they had to closethe school.
The school is where men come inand are in class and
(32:03):
dormitories live in dormitories.
When the virus hit, we couldn'tallow strangers or other
individuals to come in, so theyshut the school down and they
set up a virtual concept.
That's what I'm doing now.
I'm doing the classes onvirtual or Zoom.
(32:25):
It's not the same as being inthe classroom with the men,
because I can look at theirfaces and see if they understand
what I'm saying.
If they look blank, then I knowI go back and do something else
.
But I do the same thing withthe virtual.
I make them stand up in frontof the class and recite what I
(32:46):
said.
When I was a little kid, myfather taught me how to read.
I could read when I was five,six years old.
He would take a book and hewould point to a word And he'd
say the word and then he'd tellme you say it.
And we go through the wholebook that way.
He pointed a word and he saidyou say it.
(33:07):
It was how I learned how toread, and I found that to be
Exceptionally good for newcomerscoming in that have not changed
the way they Take an idea, takean idea that the power to
change is not out theresomewhere.
You can do it yourself, but thefirst thing you have to know is
(33:29):
what is it that you need tochange?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yeah, well, one important thing that I'm
appreciating and learning fromthis conversation with you're
saying, harold, is The power oflike, paying attention.
You know, bringing awareness,which is also what you're saying
about the inventory is that Idon't need to do a creative
writing about what I'm gonna doin the future, but I look at
what has already happened.
You know and pay attention, andthey're connecting the dots.
(33:54):
I was thinking about thewillingness to not to backtrack,
backtrack, but I'm still onthat idea of willingness and I
don't know if I talk about mykids too much on this podcast.
My kids are five and three andthey're like my Yeah, so like
(34:14):
they're like my spiritualteachers.
You know, this goes back to thatidea of going back to who we
are originally without, beforethese layers and layers of
protections and defensemechanism came about.
So one immediate example This isa very small example, but it
really struck, or would be aboutwillingness is that you know,
since the summer, my kids lovegoing to the pool and my
(34:35):
daughter loves going to the pool, and that was this one evening
or one afternoon on a SundayWhere I mentioned to my daughter
that we're going to the pooland I just saw it in her eyes
that it was as if we're alreadyat The pool, like there was no,
you know, no pretension, nolight, her openness and the
willingness part.
I was like I want to learn howto have that, you know, like
(34:57):
because there is nothing, thereis no doubt she trust me, that
we're gonna be there, and therewas this like complete
willingness and openness that,oh, you know, she just it was as
if she was already there, youknow.
So I just wanted to bring thatup too, which is related to a
quote that I've heard of too Ithink this is like an ancient
warrior Chinese quote, well,which is that it is probably
translated but that a battle, abattle is won before it is
(35:20):
fought, you know, which meansthat everything is in the mind,
you know.
So, if I have already made upmy mind to win the battle,
because it's all in the mind, soa battle is won before it is
actually fought.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Exactly, and that's an old Buddha saying, and I
think that It's true.
It's absolutely true.
You, you, you can change Yourlife in your mind.
That's where it's gonna start.
If you can separate what isuseful and has been useful to
(35:54):
you and Find a way to eliminatethose characteristics that are
not, you change the way youthink And and so it's.
It's like, it's like any other.
I like to think of it as playingchess And chess.
You make a move and thensomebody makes a counter move.
(36:16):
Make a move and somebody makesa counter move, but you have to
look down the road to see, or atleast try to Predict, what
they're going to the next moveis going to be, so that you can
provide, or the least in yourmind, a counter move and, and if
(36:38):
you can use that kind ofstrategy, you can help yourself.
Open your mind and listen.
I Don't know if you know IBoxes.
I have done it for a very longtime.
I did a lot of boxing when Iwas a kid.
The first thing I tell a kidwhen I'm gonna try and teach him
(36:59):
how to throw a left hook is Isnobody is born knowing how to
throw a left hook.
The first thing you need to dois learn to move.
You learn to move and then youpractice.
The principles that we'retalking about here are exactly
the same There to move, youlearn to move and then you
(37:21):
practice.
And that's how the change comesabout.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
You got any Cassius Clay stories for us that you can
tell?
Speaker 3 (37:29):
you Kind of cash is what I knew.
Cash is clay.
I mean, i knew Mohammed Aliwhen he was still cash is clay.
Yeah, we used to go down to.
He lived in, um, uh well,kentucky, um, trying to think of
the town he was in.
But yeah, yeah, i knew um, ihad had a couple of gyms up in
New York and he'd come downthere from time to time.
(37:51):
I know a lot of guys Patersonand Tyson and a whole bunch of
them, guy named Riddick Boak,just come up to the gym.
I went down to his gym and Iused to work with him.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Very neat.
I could do a side segment onthat as long as we wanted, but
talking about the acceptance ofthe will and the willingness,
the need to sidestep when weneed to sidestep, you know 12
step literature.
we call it character defects,we call it shortcomings, things
that may prevent us from preventpotentially doing those things.
(38:24):
You've been working with thispopulation at least since 2006,
2005.
What are some of the?
I don't know, two people arethe same but what are some
characteristics or shortcomingsyou see in the population that
you're working with, that youget to work, you get to use
these other principles to helpthem remove these short comings
(38:44):
or these character defects.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Trying to accomplish.
One of the really big thingsthat I noticed with a lot of
these guys is they try to getsomething done without doing any
work.
They think somehow somebody'sgoing to wave a magic wand and
what's going to happen is goingto happen, and they go through
life just continually expectingsomething to happen without
(39:11):
putting any effort into it.
And one of the things that Itry and it's consistent, it's
not like one or two of them,it's consistent.
In these classes that comes in,we have one or two of them
exactly that way.
And what I try to get them tounderstand that if you're going
to change, if you're going tochange the way you think it has
(39:33):
to come from inside.
You have to want to do it andmotivate yourself, unless you
want to go back out exactlywhere you were when you came in,
and I think that's gives them akind of incentive to really
begin to open the mind a littlebit, hear a little bit of things
.
I think one of the greatestgifts we get in any foster
(39:56):
program, or certainly in what Ido, is to listen, learn how to
listen carefully.
Many people just don't know howto do that.
They'll stand up there andlisten while you you be talking
to them and they'll be lookingat you, waiting for you to stop
talking so they can start.
But if you can learn how tolisten carefully to what people
(40:17):
say, you learn very quickly.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
We don't want to talk after that.
We want to make sure that we'relistening.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Yeah, i don't know if we're jumping ahead, but the
other principle that youmentioned from the list is that
concept of charity too.
That's also what I like aboutthe Tostae which seals the deal.
In our tradition that'sconsidered like generosity,
which is in the giving, becausethe thing that blocks me from
being willing, the thing thatblocks me to make change, is
(40:52):
also my selfishness, which isreally related to attachment.
I'm really attached, whether Iknow it or not, to my present
self or to my old self, and thatcomes from selfishness.
But then when I make it aboutother people, it really opens up
, channel and then create moreconnections and where you don't
feel like you're this terminallyunique That's also another term
(41:13):
that I learned in 12 stepsterminally unique person in the
whole world.
So I want to hear more aboutthat from your experience too,
about giving service, charity,generosity.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
It is one of the strangest concepts that I have
ever heard.
If somebody told me before Icame into AA that if you did
something for someone and notexpect anything in return that
you get better, It would havebeen the dumbest idea I've ever
heard.
And you do something forsomebody, you expect to get
something back.
(41:46):
But we learn that when youprovide a service to anyone, it
doesn't matter whether theyenter out of your recovery.
but when you provide a serviceto someone, whether you know it
or not, you get better.
And if you do it consistently,you grow what we call in spirit.
(42:07):
You grow in spirit, One of thethings that we teach in charity
and love.
charity simply means givingsomething away and not expect
anything back from it.
Love means to do it with noacceptance.
So if you have service and haveno expectation, you get better.
So charity and love reallymeans growing spiritually.
(42:32):
Now some people that that younotice is number 12, because it
takes a while for you to getthere and understand that
concept.
It did for me.
But if you follow these ideasas you walk through this process
, by the time you get to thatpoint you understand what
they're saying.
You understand that charity andlove is what we call service.
(42:56):
It tells us, in one of thesteps, that we have.
We ask this power that's withinus to remove those defects of
character that stands in the wayof our usefulness and then help
us go out from here and beuseful.
That's what charity and love isall about.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Can you talk more on that love and service?
I mean the way you shared itthere either is or isn't.
Love Us.
As humans, we find a reallygood way to make love
conditional, but there is nosuch thing as conditional.
That's the human aspect oftrying to control, or you can
probably articulate it betterthan I can.
(43:40):
There either is or isn't right.
How would you describe more ofit?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Well, most people who haven't had any experience
really understanding what lovereally is to think love is sex.
That's love.
Everybody gets that.
But what we're talking about isto have a compassion and
understanding for other people'sweakness and accept it.
(44:06):
accept other people'sweaknesses, be there for
somebody when they make mistakes, not criticize them, but help
them understand how to change it.
And love means to help somebody, to do something for somebody,
to be of service to somebody.
You can use any kind ofadjective that you need, but the
(44:27):
idea is to do something forsomebody and not expect anything
.
That's how you open your mindand grow.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
I think that type of service gives us an ability to
get outside of ourselves in avery healthy way.
A lot of people can get outsideof themselves, ironically, with
sex It's a quick fix physicalor work, or electronics, gaming,
you name it.
(44:55):
But man, this type of serviceand helping someone without any
expectation anything in return,we get this connection and this
love that is we get outside ofourselves in the most beautiful
way possible.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Yeah, and I have a lecture that I do and it's
called the management of change,and what I do is I walk through
some ideas of what change isand how it works, if I can find
(45:32):
what I probably can.
Essentially, what we're talkingabout is being made learning,
and teaching is the idea oftaking an idea from my head and
(45:58):
put it into your head.
That's what teaching is reallyall about.
Now, we do that throughcommunication.
We communicate so that how youcommunicate will determine
whether or not your idea can goto somebody else's head, if how
(46:23):
you communicate that idea tothem.
And in order for that to happen, the person that you're
communicating with has tounderstand what you're saying.
So the change in changingsomeone's ideas and the
(46:43):
experiences means that you haveto put an idea to them that they
understand and find useful, andthat's what communication is
and that's how change happens.
It also has a lot to do withhow you communicate, the
dialogue that you use.
(47:04):
How do you present an idea sosomebody can accept it?
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Yeah, it goes back to what you were saying about
listening.
You know that whatever I'msaying, if the other person is
not listening, not payingattention, change is not going
to occur.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
How flowery and how effective what I'm, saying
You're actually right, no matterwhat you're going to say, if
you're not listening to you,it's not going to happen.
I have had.
My experience is what peoplethat come in who are full grown
and have had a lot of experiencehave done things in their life,
(47:43):
good and bad.
They develop an experience andthat experience determines who
they are and how they act, andthat's almost impossible to turn
around.
You first have to have somekind of connection within
yourself.
We win in program.
We call it God or power,whatever, it doesn't matter what
(48:05):
you call it.
We who are born with thatincentive within ourselves to be
great, to be good, to beprosperous And somewhere along
the lines we go, depending onwho we are.
Our experience takes that awayfrom us.
But if you can replace it, ifyou can put that idea back into
(48:28):
your mind because that's theonly way it will work It's
coming from you, not from outthere somewhere If you can
connect with the power withinyou.
I like to think that some of myNative American friends have a
word they call Natasha Naka.
Natasha Naka means theconnectedness.
When Native Americans go todifferent parts of the country
(48:51):
and they come together, theycall Naka the connectedness,
natasha Naka.
If we can connect with that, ifwe connect with that power
within us, we can do anything.
And you can do it a lot ofdifferent ways prayer,
meditation, a lot of differentways you can do it, but you
(49:12):
connect with that power and thenuse it in a hard-nodes,
practical way.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
I've been fortunate to work with a lot of people
that are in recovery or tryingto get sober And one of the
things that I've noticed with alot of clients or people in
treatment facilities, a lot ofthem had a spiritual out, a lot
of them did service, but one ofthe I think the common
(49:41):
denominator that this is just myexperience of it that all of
them stopped doing One of themwere very active in 12-step
programs and had Sponzees.
All of them stopped doing onething and that was looking at
themselves.
Looking at them, they can getlost in someone else's service.
When it comes to the populationpeople that were incarcerated
(50:08):
what was some of the things thatwhen they're looking at
themselves in your program, isit ego?
What has prevented the healthychange that you will eventually
make with a lot of the people?
Speaker 3 (50:20):
you work with.
The first thing I have to do isto convince people that the
change has to come from withinThe motivation to make yourself
a different person.
Nobody can do it.
Nobody can go down and wave amagic wand.
It's not going to happen.
You have to motivate yourself,and what you can do with that is
(50:44):
what we suggest early on Lookat who you are.
How did you get to where youare?
What happened?
What were the ideas, what werethe things that happened in your
life that made you wind up injail?
And it's consistent Consistentfrom the time you were born.
Practically Those ideas andexperiences made you who you are
(51:06):
.
And if you're going to turnthat around, you're going to
have to find a way to lookinside yourself and then
motivate yourself, and there'slots of different ways to do it.
We talk about prayer andmeditation.
Prayer simply means talking tothat power.
I talk to Jesus.
Jesus is my best friend.
I often think that Jesus wasone of us.
(51:33):
Who else would turn water intowine?
And you tell people cast yourbread upon the water and it will
be returned to you.
He says it all the time Sufferthe little children unto you.
What is kingdom of God, we saythat the newcomer is coming in
And so if you can connect withsomething like that, i pray.
(51:57):
I don't know why I wouldn'tcall it really pray.
I talk to Jesus.
I talk to him like I'm talkingto you.
Sometimes I argue with him Whatare you doing this?
And?
but it gives me the powerwithin myself to make look at it
and see who I am Now, if I canget that across to the people
(52:17):
who are coming in and looking togo out in the community and be
different from when they went in.
They need to understand that ifthe change is going to come,
they have to do it, and I'm notsuggesting that it's easy.
It takes time, it takesmotivation, it takes
understanding but, mostimportant, it takes willingness.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
I think probably in the home stretch here, due to
due to time that we have, wheredoes unity and community fit in?
We know where it fits in whenit comes to 12 step fellowships
It's unity.
It's that community is, thefellowship is a big piece for
the connectedness, yes, andthrough higher power and
(53:06):
spirituality.
How do you do that?
and your teachings through theacademy of that unity and
support.
Speaker 3 (53:16):
What I suggest to the men when this is coming toward,
when they're going into theirnext phase, what I suggest that
they use go back, go into theircommunity.
You'll find in your communitythat there are many needs, but
there are also many differentkinds of people that help and
(53:39):
work and do things in thecommunity that most people don't
even know about.
If you could just go into acommunity center and help kids,
go into a library and teach kidshow to read, do something that
will help lift up the personthat you're helping.
But it also gives you the senseof being of service, of doing
(54:01):
something and not expectanything in return.
That's spiritual growth.
Now, a lot of people that theytake spiritual growth to mean
some kind of religion and it'snot.
Spirituality comes from withinus.
That's where it is.
The spirit is right here, notout there somewhere.
If you can accept that and useit, you can do something.
(54:26):
What happens is you helpsomebody out there and at the
same time you grow.
Strange kind of concept I wouldhave never believed if I hadn't
come in here and saw it work,but now I know it's real.
It's true, I've done it for along time.
Before I came to ChristopherPlace.
I ran and developed publichousing all over the country.
(54:49):
I built and developed and didall kinds of public community
things in different places.
I was director of housing herein Annapolis for 10 years.
One of the things that I foundand if everywhere I went that if
you got to the people and letthem know you're doing something
for them that's going to helpthem, they will work with you.
(55:11):
We had probably some of thebest communities that we had in
public housing Simple ideas,honesty, truth, trust, faith,
persistence, willingness simpleprinciples.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
Do you have any success stories?
Speaker 3 (55:34):
Oh, lots, lots, lots.
I'll give you a couple examples.
We had a guy that wanted to bea doctor.
He came out, he went over toHopkins.
I got him connected withHopkins.
He went through a trainingprogram as an intern first and
they sent him to medical school.
(55:55):
Now he's practicing.
I know another guy that wantedto teach, another guy that
wanted to drive trucks andthey're all out doing it now.
Another guy that's working inthe community in the community
center set it up.
The new governor of Maryland isworking with him.
He's working with him.
Speaker 1 (56:14):
That's great.
That's awesome.
What do you think, Zo?
Speaker 2 (56:19):
That's great.
Yeah, i really enjoyed this.
I don't know why, or the wayyou asked the question to Harold
previous to the last aboutunity really reminds me to
conclude the whole conversationabout In Buddhism, the word that
is translated from, we talkabout truth, which is first,
(56:41):
noble truth, second, noble truth.
It comes from this word, tissa,which is a CCA, and the actual
translation that has beentranslated is that something
that always stays truthful,something that always stays
faithful, which is also thatsomething that never contradicts
itself.
So the way we're talking aboutprinciples is that, if I'm truly
(57:02):
paying attention, the unity Isee is something that never
contradicts itself.
It's always in harmony whereverI look at it.
So that just got me thinkingabout unity.
If I think about unity, it'ssomething that is truthful, that
it doesn't contradict itself,it stays united, it stays in
harmony.
So it makes me think of that,everything that we've been
(57:23):
talking about, to just payattention and do what's already
in harmony.
Speaker 3 (57:28):
You nailed it It's harmony.
Is what unity is Harmony?
working together to build eachother, stepping in and doing
something, no matter where youare.
Unity we have the same goalsand objectives and we help each
other do it.
It's what unity really is.
(57:50):
It's one of the reasons BillWilson made unity the first
tradition.
If we don't all stick together,we sure as hell fall apart.
Speaker 1 (58:04):
It started with Alcoholics Anonymous and there's
Narconic Anonymous, chemicalDependency, we know.
We've spread to GamblersAnonymous over Eaters, sex
Anonymous, and it goes on and on, on and on and on.
Yeah, a reason for that We alsohave a lot of listeners that
(58:25):
have never been locked up.
We have listeners that don'thave any issues with substance
use or abuse.
For the listener that may justhave some depression or anxiety
or past traumas, what would youtell, say to them, harold, when
it comes to these principlesthat you could give out to those
(58:49):
?
Speaker 3 (58:49):
The first thing I would say to someone who has
never had any kind of experiencewith opening up themselves and
looking at themselves is tostart to look at who you are.
Take some of these simple ideas.
They're everywhere.
You can go on Google and findthem.
Take those simple ideas andlook at yourself.
(59:10):
Look at yourself truly, Findsomeone that you trust and talk
to them.
Sharing is probably one of themost valuable changes that there
is.
Change and ask people that youtrust.
What do they think about youand what should you do?
(59:31):
It takes courage to do that toone of our principles.
It's not going to happen simplybecause you want to do it.
It takes courage.
But if you really want tobecome uplifted, if you really
want to be able to do thenaitashna ka, connect with that
power.
that's what you need to do.
The power is not out there.
You have it.
You are born with it.
(59:51):
What you need to do is how toconnect.
Speaker 1 (59:58):
Thank you, Harold.
I wish we had another hour.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
All right.
Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Thanks so much, harold, for joining us.
Thank you all for tuning inonce again And, as always,
please give us a like, a comment, a share And, as always,
collectively we can findsolutions to all things.
Health and wellness.
My name is Luke Duboy, this isZau.
We'll see you next time.
(01:00:26):
Thanks so much, thanks.
Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
Thank you, Good show So.
Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
Harold, thank you.
Okay, welcome to A Therapist of Buddhist in You.
Brought to you by the RecoveryCollective in Annapolis,
maryland, it's a podcast wherewe journey through
self-discovery and collectivegrowth.
I'm your co-host, luke Duboy, atherapist passionate about all
things health and wellness, andjoining me on this enlightening
adventure is my co-host, who'sas mindful about meditation as
(00:23):
he is of suffering Zong-A.
Hey, luke, good to be here again, hello everyone, And Zong-A is
a wise and compassionateBuddhist and practitioner and
life coach.
Together, we'll explore theintersections of psychology,
spirituality, health andwellness, offering practical
insights along the way.
Thanks for tuning in andjoining our collective community
(00:45):
.
Please communicate with us andother listeners on Facebook,
Instagram and YouTube.
Links are provided in theepisode notes.
We're here to provide you withvaluable tools, perspectives.
That has the ability topotentially transform your life.
If you find our podcast helpful, we greatly appreciate your
support.
We like to call it ourhandshake agreement.
(01:05):
We provide you with some deepdives and valuable information,
and you can leave a like,comment, subscribe and, most
importantly, share our podcastwith others.
If you'd like to monetarilythank us, we do have that option
as well, and you can just clickthe donate button.
Remember, it's through ourcollective efforts that we can
uncover solutions to all thingshealth and wellness.
So it's all.
(01:25):
Today We've got a prettyinteresting topic and we're
looking at the 12-StepPrinciples and Values Behind the
Principles to Outside 12-StepRecovery.
The 12-Step Program originatedfrom Alcoholics Anonymous, a
fellowship founded in 1935 byBill Wilson and Dr Bob Smith.
It was developed as a method toovercome alcohol addiction and
(01:47):
sheeps of variety.
12-steps provide a structuredapproach to self-reflection,
personal growth and spiritualdevelopment.
Over time, the 12-Steps gainrecognition of their
effectiveness in helpingindividuals recover from
addiction and transform theirlives.
The principles embedded in the12-Step, such as honesty,
humility, willingness andservice, resonated with people
(02:10):
facing various challenges beyondproblems pertaining to alcohol
use.
As a therapist and a certifiedalcohol and drug counselor, I
see the beauty of the 12-Stepsreally lies in their universal
applicability.
The principles and practice canbe adapted to address various
issues, including personaldevelopment, some aspects of
(02:30):
mental health relationships, andeven help determine your life
choices.
Many individuals, organizationsand certainly treatment
facilities have recognized thesevalues and these principles and
integrate them into theirprograms.
We want to shed light on thepower of these principles beyond
their original context andhighlight how they can support
you By featuring our expertguest today.
(02:53):
He'll share how he brings theseprinciples to different settings
and populations.
So, whether you're familiarwith the 12-Steps or are
entirely new to thistransformative framework, get
ready to be inspired andcaptivated by the stories and
insights that lie ahead.
We invite you to open your mindto the possibilities as we
explore the incredible ways the12-Steps and principles shape
(03:13):
lives, foster resilience, guideindividuals towards the path of
health, happiness and personalfulfillment.
Stay tuned for an enlighteningconversation with Harold Green.
Harold, thank you so much fordoing this today.
We're truly honored to have youhere as our guest.
It's my privilege.
Yeah, so I know we're bringingyou on in terms of how 12-Step
(03:41):
principles and values can helpAnd, out of respect, we're not
going to go in depth of theGreater Baltimore Area Training
Academy, where you provide theseservices, But tell us a little
bit about that What you do atthis Training Academy in the
(04:04):
Greater Baltimore Area and howit's making a difference in the
lives of many.
We're excited here to learnmore about your teachings.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Thank you, Luke, And it might be useful for me to
just simply read an opening forthe Christopher Place Employment
and Training Academy.
Aware that all human familiesare entitled to having their
basic needs met, we make acommitment to journey with the
(04:33):
poor and homeless men as theyreclaim a life of
self-determination and stability.
We invite men to engage in aprocess of change that moves men
from being homeless topermanent, stable living, that
prepares men to obtain andmaintain full employment and
(04:55):
that empowers men to live a lifefree of drugs.
Christopher Place is anemployment agency with a
residential component thatsupports addiction recovery.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Thank you, and you've been working with this Academy
for how many years now?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
It'll get to be 23, 24 years.
I started 2005 at the oldfacility and they moved into a
brand new facility over on GreenMountain Avenue in Baltimore.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And these are men and women or men, no only men Men
Academy that are helping themcome from an incarcerated lockup
facility.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
To the quote unquote life outside Well let me go back
and explain a little bit.
The men that come toChristopher Place have recently
been expunged from incarceration.
They go through a six monthapplication process and at the
(06:13):
end of that process they come toChristopher Place.
They're called open and primarymembers.
at that time They go through a16 week program and they move
into the next phase, which isinterviewing and resume writing
(06:35):
and moving in.
at the same time, While they'regoing through my process, they
are also given opportunities tomeet with other facilitators.
They learn interviewing skills,they learn resume writing, they
learn speaking correctly,interviewing and those kinds of
(06:58):
things.
So there's a full open programfor all the men that come
through in the beginning.
It goes in phases and it lastsapproximately 15 weeks.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
And what would you consider your part of the
program?
Obviously, writing skills,resume building and things like
that.
You know what that is, but whatwould you consider your piece
of the pie for them?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Let me see I can put this in a context that, because
I could go on for the rest ofthe month talking about what I
do, but essentially what I do isexplain to men that life
(07:46):
doesn't change because you'refree.
Life will continue to come atyou hard and fast if you haven't
learned how to change the wayyou think.
Essentially, that's what I do.
I give men tools so that theycan use them in the process of
changing the way they think.
(08:07):
I explain to them that we areour experience.
That's what we are.
We are our experience.
That is whatever had beenpreviously in our lives is who
we become To change.
That is a difficult process andit's not simple.
(08:27):
What you need is somefundamental tools that can allow
you to open your mind andaccept new ideas.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Can I imagine that's what you're teaching them?
some fundamental tools to dothat?
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
And before we go down that fun path and I'm looking
forward to go down how did youget involved in this process?
There's people that do resumebuilding.
There's people that do allforms of launching back into
society and life skills.
How did people go?
obviously, this part isvaluable.
How did you get involved?
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Well, i've been a teacher for most of my adult
life.
I taught in the military, itaught history in high school
and now I'm teaching at atraining school for ex-offenders
.
The idea that I have somefundamental ideas that I can
(09:29):
provide to anyone, using thesame principles that they use in
recovery programs, allow thoseprinciples to be used to help
change the way people think andhow they act.
Those principles are not new.
The principles that we use areas old as time itself.
(09:53):
The reason they work arebecause they are true principles
And if we apply themconsistently, we can use those
same ideas to help us change theway we think, and that's
essentially what we do.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
And your program?
is this a 16-week program?
How long do you teach this withthese ex-offenders?
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Well, I started in 19,.
no, I started in 2005.
I retired.
I was director of housing forthe city of Annapolis.
I have a dear friend of minewho is a priest that has been
working with Christopher Placefor a very long time.
His name is Father Joe Madonna,And when I left the city he
(10:44):
approached me and asked if Iwould be willing to participate
in a program that helps trainand give new opportunities to
men coming back out from prison.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Is there an average length people are locked up
before they see you?
Is it months?
Is it years?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Some of them have been for years.
I don't know the exact numberof those That's not general
information, But many of them Ican say reasonably well that
they have been in sight of Earth, or some have been in sight for
quite a few years.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yeah, that's a very powerful way of freeing people,
which to me means that innerlife reflects the outer reality.
So if I'm just fixing what's inthe outer and not change my
inner life, same problem isgoing to occur.
So that's what I'm hearing.
What you're saying, that whenwe challenge our thinking is to
(11:50):
change my personal reality andthe outer reality catches up.
But I do want to ask too maybethis can, maybe Luke can, direct
us to is that, speaking out ofmy own personal experience and I
want to hear your experiencehelping these people is that the
spiritual principles are great,but then there needs to be also
a common language where thosespiritual principles are
(12:13):
receptive?
you know, because I heard thesefirst principles but I wasn't
ready And whatever was beingcommunicated to me, i wasn't
receptive.
So in this case, are theretools that are useful in terms
of speaking to them directly,where they become receptive to
these principles?
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Well, when the men come into date, they go through
a primary beginner's process inthe beginning, and that's where
they understand exactly whatthey're there for, what they can
expect to happen, and encouragethem to begin to use the simple
(12:53):
ideas that we provide for themto change their lives when they
leave.
For the most part, the men thatcome there have not had
experience.
Some do have had someexperience with recovery
programs and 12-step programs,but many of them do not, and so
(13:14):
we need to start off byexplaining that what it is and
how it works, and it's somethingI mentioned earlier.
We are our experience.
It's one of the things I reallytry to get across.
We are our experience, and ifyou have had a good experience
during your life, you usuallyare successful and move forward.
(13:41):
But if you have had badexperiences, they become your
experience and you continue touse those and they become
depressed.
So the first thing we need todo is look at those experiences.
Look at those experiences andbe prepared.
(14:01):
Once you understand what theyare and how they've held you
back, we can give you some toolsto help you motivate yourself
to change the way you think.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
What's the buy-in?
Because I think as a therapistand as a meditation and life
coach.
Most of the time we get peoplethat are motivated to see us,
but every once in a while wedon't.
We get to.
I imagine you do too.
We get to build the rapport andthat connection And you're
saying it sounds like you'resaying you do that by the powers
and our experiences.
(14:38):
I imagine there's a percentageof people that wait a minute.
What are we learning in thisclass, Like?
I hear what you're saying, butwhat am I getting out of this?
What am I getting out oftherapy?
What am I getting out ofworking with, all with?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
I hear you.
It's not that simple.
Let me give you an idea of whathappens when they come in and
we give them a handout thattells them exactly what we're
(15:15):
going to do.
The course of instruction willact as an adjunct to the GED
Literal Adult Basic EducationProgram provided by this Academy
to enhance basic living skillsand create an atmosphere for
re-entry into the community.
(15:36):
The course of study willdevelop a fundamental ability by
the individuals to recognizeand moderate past behaviors.
This will include instructionand basic life skills.
The object will be seamlesslytransitioned into the final
(15:57):
Academy objective, the abilityto live in a real world.
Essentially, that's what we tellthem when they come in.
This is a course of study thatwill help you not make the same
mistakes you made before youcame in, but give you an
(16:17):
opportunity to look at thosemistakes and make a decision to
motivate yourself not to makethe same mistakes again.
Now, that's not easy.
Most people have a set process,the way they analyze and
(16:37):
understand whatever, and tryingto change that from the time
they were born until the time weget them is not an easy task.
What has to be understood bynot only the men, but by the,
but by the teachers Teaching isthat it's not simple, but it's
(17:04):
not complicated.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
So there's these fundamental living skills that
you're teaching them, and you'reusing this common denominator
that we call the principles ofthe 12 steps.
So expand a little bit more onhow you do that.
What is your teaching?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
style.
Sure, that's where I come in.
The principles that we talkabout are not new.
The principles that we use atChristopher Place and almost in
(17:44):
every facility that addressesproblems.
Then, as a matter of fact,there's something like 300
programs that use 12 principles.
There's everything.
There's a program that treatspeople who have dislike for
horses.
(18:04):
So there are a lot of different12 step programs that use these
basic principles, and let mejust read off what they are
Acceptance Acceptance One of themost valuable principles that
we learn.
Faith Faith, and it has nothingto do with religion.
(18:28):
If you have a practice ofreligion, that's fine, but we're
talking about the power withinyou and the idea that you have a
power within you that you canuse to access the change in your
life.
Surrender and trust.
It means that you have to giveup the old ways and trust a new
(18:52):
set of principles that can helpyou change your life.
Courage, which is almostunderstandable.
You have to want to do it andthen have the strength and
conviction to do it.
Willingness is probably one ofthe most important.
If you aren't willing and beable to motivate yourself,
(19:15):
nothing happens.
Humility Humility is a verycurious adjective.
Humility, in the context thatwe use.
It means that you know who youare.
Humility means you know oneself, and that's what we're starting
for to help you understand whoyou really are.
(19:36):
I like to think of what we dowith these principles.
I use the analogy of a puzzle.
Everybody, as a child, has donepuzzles one way or another, and
the idea of a puzzle is toconnect the dots.
You connect the dots in thepuzzle and when you've connected
(19:59):
all the dots, there's a picture, and that picture is you, and
the 12 steps are the dots.
You connect the dots one by onein a process and at the end of
that process you know who youare.
And that's humility.
And there's a variety of otherconcepts that we use, but
(20:24):
they're down the road a littlebit.
In the beginning.
We have to stress forgiveness,freedom, perseverance, patience
and then, finally, charity andlove.
Those are simple ideas thatmost people don't use.
They know them, they've heardof them, but to apply them into
(20:47):
your life on a consistent basisis very difficult.
What we try to do is encouragethe men to take these ideas and
use them consistently.
We give them the opportunity toask questions, be skeptical,
(21:11):
but understand that the processthat we're providing for them
works and it has for a very longtime.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah, those are really powerful principles and
concepts, and I want to go backto what you have begun with
about experience.
There's a concept in ourmeditation and in our tradition
about direct experience Thatwhen I'm meditating, a teacher
or a meditation teacher can belike this is how it feels like
to breathe in, breathe out orgive all these techniques, but
(21:43):
they don't mean anything until Ihave a direct experience of oh,
this is how it feels like tobreathe in, or this is how it
feels like you have a pausebetween in-breath and the
out-breath, and then that reallyuncovers so many things.
Because I think aboutexperiences also, that I might
see Luke, and Luke who I see isactually through my own eyes.
(22:04):
It's actually my reality,although Luke doesn't exist
outside of me.
So, in a way, my senses createmy reality.
So it's actually good news andbad news, but it's mostly good
news because if I don't like myreality, i can change how I
interpret or how I see the world, in a way.
So it makes me think of that,as you're sharing, and also
(22:25):
these principles too, about thespirituality since you were
talking about to remember who wetruly are, is that some people
think that spirituality is likeadding more, but it's actually
uncovering the layers that wehave built up over the years.
So that really strikes core.
With me about to discover whowe truly are is not to add more,
(22:47):
but to get rid of things thatare blocking the ways.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Very good, exactly, you got it.
You've been paying attention.
One of the things that we findparticularly useful is we have a
simple saying if you change theway you think, you change the
way you act.
(23:11):
And we provide process ofmeditation.
Now you can go and Google ahundred different ways to
meditate.
There's many ways to meditate,as there are people.
I learned to meditate from aBuddhist priest named Lao Su And
(23:33):
he said think about the mosthappiest, the most enjoyable
time you have ever had in yourlife.
Ever, michael, had to go backto when you were a little kid to
find that happy, joyful timeand place.
But he said practice, practicegoing to close your eyes and go
(23:57):
back to that time and place.
Do it over and over and overagain until your mind relaxes
and opens.
When I was a little kid, myfamily has a house in South
Carolina right on the back creek.
We used to go skintubing backthere, but they have the largest
catfish you have ever seen inthat creek.
(24:20):
I caught a catfish when I was alittle kid, almost as big as I
am, but I could go to that creek, sit on a log with a fishing
pole and nobody could find me.
It was the quietest,peacefulest place I've ever been
to.
Well, i can pull up to atraffic light, close my eyes and
I'm sitting on that log with afishing pole and my mind opens,
(24:44):
and I encourage people to dothat.
Now, that may not work for youit works for me, fine, but you
can find an idea that will allowyou to open your mind.
The only condition is that youhave to want to do it,
willingness to do it, and weencourage the men to begin with
(25:10):
that That's where we start Openyour mind so that you can allow
new ideas to come in, becausethat's what you're going to get.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
And your experience, your example just resonates with
me of OK, we're open our mindof willingness, but, man,
there's acceptance that Haroldjust had a good experience, The
fundamental experience in hischildhood.
That was good and he can gothere anytime he wants.
Ok, I can be open minded tothat.
(25:43):
He's starting me off with there?
OK, I'm listening.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
That's good, and the only condition for that is
consistency They talk about.
We have many, many differentways to meditate.
As I said before, you can goonline and find 100 different
(26:07):
ways to do it.
The whole point of meditationis to open your mind.
Most people think you go to laydown and go to sleep or
something.
When you meditate in you.
The idea is to open your mind,allow new ideas to come in.
That's what meditation is allabout.
It's not about trying topromote or invent new ideas.
(26:33):
It's to be able to accept ideasthat will be in your best
interest, and if you can do that, the meditation works.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, if it's OK, i'd like to focus on that idea of
that concept of willingness Ithink it will be beneficial to
the listeners and for myself aswell And also hear your
expertise on that, based onpeople that you've helped with,
because for me it's been reallyinteresting, especially for a
12-star community which I joinedas well.
Willingness came out of pain.
(27:05):
I couldn't stand it anymore.
For me, that's OK, but forpeople who don't really hit any
kind of bottom, willingness isnot something that can be
created.
So how do you uncover that?
Because that motivation, i canwant something.
But if I'm wanting that forsomeone else or if it's
superficial, when things gettough I'll be like, actually I
(27:28):
don't really want it, it's notthat important.
But then if it's a decisionwithin me that I really want it,
the willingness is there.
Nothing can stop me.
So I feel like that is a reallykey principle for many people
who wanted to change, but thenthe willingness is not really
there.
How can we help for that?
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Zahya, you're absolutely correct, and that's
really what the problem is.
Most people don't even havenever experienced that.
They have no idea what you'retalking about.
When you talk to you, begin totalk about willingness to change
the way you think They look atyou like you're nuts.
Willingness to change meansthat you can focus on what
(28:15):
happened to you, look insideyourself.
In some 12-step programs we callit take an inventory.
Take an inventory By that wemean look at the things that
have been good in your life andhave helped you promote, and
look at the things that havecreated problems in your life.
Write them down, look at themAnd then become willing to be
(28:40):
rid of them.
And then they say, well, how doyou do that?
Well, the way you do that iswhat we just talked about.
You meditate, you open yourmind and allow those ideas to go
away and allow new ideas tocome in.
Now nobody's going to come downand wave a magic wand and you go
(29:01):
skipping through the two levels.
It's not going to happen Ifyou're going to change and
become willing and motivateyourself to do it.
It takes time, it takes effortAnd it takes wanting to do it,
willingness to do it,willingness to change.
If you're not willing, might aswell go home.
(29:23):
If you're willing to change,the processes there for you to
do and what we tried toencourage the men to do is to
stop Don't try and grab it allat once.
Take it step by step andunderstand that willingness
comes from motivation,determination that you want to
(29:47):
change and not go back to thelife you had before you came
here.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
It sounds like that principle of willingness allows
this open-mindedness and abilityto make, hopefully, not just a
perspective change but an actualchange that can lead to more
healthy decisions and way oflife.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
That's the idea, that's the goal, that's the
objective And it's important tounderstand.
For me to make it clear thatit's not going to happen all at
once.
It takes time.
It took a long time to get theway you are now.
It's going to take time to undothat, and the first thing that
(30:33):
in order to make that happen, isto look at it.
Look at it.
Take an inventory.
Take an inventory.
I like the way they do it insome programs.
They'll say if you own abusiness and you are a good
businessman, once a year atleast you go back in your stock
(30:53):
room.
You look up on the shelf andyou see some stock that had gone
bad.
You have to get rid of it, butyou have a lot of stock that's
still good and you can use.
You can do it.
Or a limiter is exactly thesame thing.
You've got some ideas that arekicking your butt for a long
time.
You need to look at that, bewilling to accept what they are
(31:16):
and then make a decision thatyou want to change.
Then the principles come toeffect and it's thought to work.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, i heard you said it.
The willingness is one of theprinciples, and then there's
this level of acceptance thathas to come with it.
You've been working with thispopulation for since 2006, i
believe you said 2005.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
I started 2005.
Every day since then In 2000,.
What was it?
When did the pandemic start?
2002, 2000.
Brown and the other.
In any event, they had to closethe school.
The school is where men come inand are in class and
(32:03):
dormitories live in dormitories.
When the virus hit, we couldn'tallow strangers or other
individuals to come in, so theyshut the school down and they
set up a virtual concept.
That's what I'm doing now.
I'm doing the classes onvirtual or Zoom.
(32:25):
It's not the same as being inthe classroom with the men,
because I can look at theirfaces and see if they understand
what I'm saying.
If they look blank, then I knowI go back and do something else
.
But I do the same thing withthe virtual.
I make them stand up in frontof the class and recite what I
(32:46):
said.
When I was a little kid, myfather taught me how to read.
I could read when I was five,six years old.
He would take a book and hewould point to a word And he'd
say the word and then he'd tellme you say it.
And we go through the wholebook that way.
He pointed a word and he saidyou say it.
(33:07):
It was how I learned how toread, and I found that to be
Exceptionally good for newcomerscoming in that have not changed
the way they Take an idea, takean idea that the power to
change is not out theresomewhere.
You can do it yourself, but thefirst thing you have to know is
(33:29):
what is it that you need tochange?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yeah, well, one important thing that I'm
appreciating and learning fromthis conversation with you're
saying, harold, is The power oflike, paying attention.
You know, bringing awareness,which is also what you're saying
about the inventory is that Idon't need to do a creative
writing about what I'm gonna doin the future, but I look at
what has already happened.
You know and pay attention, andthey're connecting the dots.
(33:54):
I was thinking about thewillingness to not to backtrack,
backtrack, but I'm still onthat idea of willingness and I
don't know if I talk about mykids too much on this podcast.
My kids are five and three andthey're like my Yeah, so like
(34:14):
they're like my spiritualteachers.
You know, this goes back to thatidea of going back to who we
are originally without, beforethese layers and layers of
protections and defensemechanism came about.
So one immediate example This isa very small example, but it
really struck, or would be aboutwillingness is that you know,
since the summer, my kids lovegoing to the pool and my
(34:35):
daughter loves going to the pool, and that was this one evening
or one afternoon on a SundayWhere I mentioned to my daughter
that we're going to the pooland I just saw it in her eyes
that it was as if we're alreadyat The pool, like there was no,
you know, no pretension, nolight, her openness and the
willingness part.
I was like I want to learn howto have that, you know, like
(34:57):
because there is nothing, thereis no doubt she trust me, that
we're gonna be there, and therewas this like complete
willingness and openness that,oh, you know, she just it was as
if she was already there, youknow.
So I just wanted to bring thatup too, which is related to a
quote that I've heard of too Ithink this is like an ancient
warrior Chinese quote, well,which is that it is probably
translated but that a battle, abattle is won before it is
(35:20):
fought, you know, which meansthat everything is in the mind,
you know.
So, if I have already made upmy mind to win the battle,
because it's all in the mind, soa battle is won before it is
actually fought.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Exactly, and that's an old Buddha saying, and I
think that It's true.
It's absolutely true.
You, you, you can change Yourlife in your mind.
That's where it's gonna start.
If you can separate what isuseful and has been useful to
(35:54):
you and Find a way to eliminatethose characteristics that are
not, you change the way youthink And and so it's.
It's like, it's like any other.
I like to think of it as playingchess And chess.
You make a move and thensomebody makes a counter move.
(36:16):
Make a move and somebody makesa counter move, but you have to
look down the road to see, or atleast try to Predict, what
they're going to the next moveis going to be, so that you can
provide, or the least in yourmind, a counter move and, and if
(36:38):
you can use that kind ofstrategy, you can help yourself.
Open your mind and listen.
I Don't know if you know IBoxes.
I have done it for a very longtime.
I did a lot of boxing when Iwas a kid.
The first thing I tell a kidwhen I'm gonna try and teach him
(36:59):
how to throw a left hook is Isnobody is born knowing how to
throw a left hook.
The first thing you need to dois learn to move.
You learn to move and then youpractice.
The principles that we'retalking about here are exactly
the same There to move, youlearn to move and then you
(37:21):
practice.
And that's how the change comesabout.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
You got any Cassius Clay stories for us that you can
tell?
Speaker 3 (37:29):
you Kind of cash is what I knew.
Cash is clay.
I mean, i knew Mohammed Aliwhen he was still cash is clay.
Yeah, we used to go down to.
He lived in, um, uh well,kentucky, um, trying to think of
the town he was in.
But yeah, yeah, i knew um, ihad had a couple of gyms up in
New York and he'd come downthere from time to time.
(37:51):
I know a lot of guys Patersonand Tyson and a whole bunch of
them, guy named Riddick Boak,just come up to the gym.
I went down to his gym and Iused to work with him.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Very neat.
I could do a side segment onthat as long as we wanted, but
talking about the acceptance ofthe will and the willingness,
the need to sidestep when weneed to sidestep, you know 12
step literature.
we call it character defects,we call it shortcomings, things
that may prevent us from preventpotentially doing those things.
(38:24):
You've been working with thispopulation at least since 2006,
2005.
What are some of the?
I don't know, two people arethe same but what are some
characteristics or shortcomingsyou see in the population that
you're working with, that youget to work, you get to use
these other principles to helpthem remove these short comings
(38:44):
or these character defects.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Trying to accomplish.
One of the really big thingsthat I noticed with a lot of
these guys is they try to getsomething done without doing any
work.
They think somehow somebody'sgoing to wave a magic wand and
what's going to happen is goingto happen, and they go through
life just continually expectingsomething to happen without
(39:11):
putting any effort into it.
And one of the things that Itry and it's consistent, it's
not like one or two of them,it's consistent.
In these classes that comes in,we have one or two of them
exactly that way.
And what I try to get them tounderstand that if you're going
to change, if you're going tochange the way you think it has
(39:33):
to come from inside.
You have to want to do it andmotivate yourself, unless you
want to go back out exactlywhere you were when you came in,
and I think that's gives them akind of incentive to really
begin to open the mind a littlebit, hear a little bit of things
.
I think one of the greatestgifts we get in any foster
(39:56):
program, or certainly in what Ido, is to listen, learn how to
listen carefully.
Many people just don't know howto do that.
They'll stand up there andlisten while you you be talking
to them and they'll be lookingat you, waiting for you to stop
talking so they can start.
But if you can learn how tolisten carefully to what people
(40:17):
say, you learn very quickly.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
We don't want to talk after that.
We want to make sure that we'relistening.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Yeah, i don't know if we're jumping ahead, but the
other principle that youmentioned from the list is that
concept of charity too.
That's also what I like aboutthe Tostae which seals the deal.
In our tradition that'sconsidered like generosity,
which is in the giving, becausethe thing that blocks me from
being willing, the thing thatblocks me to make change, is
(40:52):
also my selfishness, which isreally related to attachment.
I'm really attached, whether Iknow it or not, to my present
self or to my old self, and thatcomes from selfishness.
But then when I make it aboutother people, it really opens up
, channel and then create moreconnections and where you don't
feel like you're this terminallyunique That's also another term
(41:13):
that I learned in 12 stepsterminally unique person in the
whole world.
So I want to hear more aboutthat from your experience too,
about giving service, charity,generosity.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
It is one of the strangest concepts that I have
ever heard.
If somebody told me before Icame into AA that if you did
something for someone and notexpect anything in return that
you get better, It would havebeen the dumbest idea I've ever
heard.
And you do something forsomebody, you expect to get
something back.
(41:46):
But we learn that when youprovide a service to anyone, it
doesn't matter whether theyenter out of your recovery.
but when you provide a serviceto someone, whether you know it
or not, you get better.
And if you do it consistently,you grow what we call in spirit.
(42:07):
You grow in spirit, One of thethings that we teach in charity
and love.
charity simply means givingsomething away and not expect
anything back from it.
Love means to do it with noacceptance.
So if you have service and haveno expectation, you get better.
So charity and love reallymeans growing spiritually.
(42:32):
Now some people that that younotice is number 12, because it
takes a while for you to getthere and understand that
concept.
It did for me.
But if you follow these ideasas you walk through this process
, by the time you get to thatpoint you understand what
they're saying.
You understand that charity andlove is what we call service.
(42:56):
It tells us, in one of thesteps, that we have.
We ask this power that's withinus to remove those defects of
character that stands in the wayof our usefulness and then help
us go out from here and beuseful.
That's what charity and love isall about.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Can you talk more on that love and service?
I mean the way you shared itthere either is or isn't.
Love Us.
As humans, we find a reallygood way to make love
conditional, but there is nosuch thing as conditional.
That's the human aspect oftrying to control, or you can
probably articulate it betterthan I can.
(43:40):
There either is or isn't right.
How would you describe more ofit?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Well, most people who haven't had any experience
really understanding what lovereally is to think love is sex.
That's love.
Everybody gets that.
But what we're talking about isto have a compassion and
understanding for other people'sweakness and accept it.
(44:06):
accept other people'sweaknesses, be there for
somebody when they make mistakes, not criticize them, but help
them understand how to change it.
And love means to help somebody, to do something for somebody,
to be of service to somebody.
You can use any kind ofadjective that you need, but the
(44:27):
idea is to do something forsomebody and not expect anything
.
That's how you open your mindand grow.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
I think that type of service gives us an ability to
get outside of ourselves in avery healthy way.
A lot of people can get outsideof themselves, ironically, with
sex It's a quick fix physicalor work, or electronics, gaming,
you name it.
(44:55):
But man, this type of serviceand helping someone without any
expectation anything in return,we get this connection and this
love that is we get outside ofourselves in the most beautiful
way possible.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Yeah, and I have a lecture that I do and it's
called the management of change,and what I do is I walk through
some ideas of what change isand how it works, if I can find
(45:32):
what I probably can.
Essentially, what we're talkingabout is being made learning,
and teaching is the idea oftaking an idea from my head and
(45:58):
put it into your head.
That's what teaching is reallyall about.
Now, we do that throughcommunication.
We communicate so that how youcommunicate will determine
whether or not your idea can goto somebody else's head, if how
(46:23):
you communicate that idea tothem.
And in order for that to happen, the person that you're
communicating with has tounderstand what you're saying.
So the change in changingsomeone's ideas and the
(46:43):
experiences means that you haveto put an idea to them that they
understand and find useful, andthat's what communication is
and that's how change happens.
It also has a lot to do withhow you communicate, the
dialogue that you use.
(47:04):
How do you present an idea sosomebody can accept it?
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Yeah, it goes back to what you were saying about
listening.
You know that whatever I'msaying, if the other person is
not listening, not payingattention, change is not going
to occur.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
How flowery and how effective what I'm, saying
You're actually right, no matterwhat you're going to say, if
you're not listening to you,it's not going to happen.
I have had.
My experience is what peoplethat come in who are full grown
and have had a lot of experiencehave done things in their life,
(47:43):
good and bad.
They develop an experience andthat experience determines who
they are and how they act, andthat's almost impossible to turn
around.
You first have to have somekind of connection within
yourself.
We win in program.
We call it God or power,whatever, it doesn't matter what
(48:05):
you call it.
We who are born with thatincentive within ourselves to be
great, to be good, to beprosperous And somewhere along
the lines we go, depending onwho we are.
Our experience takes that awayfrom us.
But if you can replace it, ifyou can put that idea back into
(48:28):
your mind because that's theonly way it will work It's
coming from you, not from outthere somewhere If you can
connect with the power withinyou.
I like to think that some of myNative American friends have a
word they call Natasha Naka.
Natasha Naka means theconnectedness.
When Native Americans go todifferent parts of the country
(48:51):
and they come together, theycall Naka the connectedness,
natasha Naka.
If we can connect with that, ifwe connect with that power
within us, we can do anything.
And you can do it a lot ofdifferent ways prayer,
meditation, a lot of differentways you can do it, but you
(49:12):
connect with that power and thenuse it in a hard-nodes,
practical way.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
I've been fortunate to work with a lot of people
that are in recovery or tryingto get sober And one of the
things that I've noticed with alot of clients or people in
treatment facilities, a lot ofthem had a spiritual out, a lot
of them did service, but one ofthe I think the common
(49:41):
denominator that this is just myexperience of it that all of
them stopped doing One of themwere very active in 12-step
programs and had Sponzees.
All of them stopped doing onething and that was looking at
themselves.
Looking at them, they can getlost in someone else's service.
When it comes to the populationpeople that were incarcerated
(50:08):
what was some of the things thatwhen they're looking at
themselves in your program, isit ego?
What has prevented the healthychange that you will eventually
make with a lot of the people?
Speaker 3 (50:20):
you work with.
The first thing I have to do isto convince people that the
change has to come from withinThe motivation to make yourself
a different person.
Nobody can do it.
Nobody can go down and wave amagic wand.
It's not going to happen.
You have to motivate yourself,and what you can do with that is
(50:44):
what we suggest early on Lookat who you are.
How did you get to where youare?
What happened?
What were the ideas, what werethe things that happened in your
life that made you wind up injail?
And it's consistent Consistentfrom the time you were born.
Practically Those ideas andexperiences made you who you are
(51:06):
.
And if you're going to turnthat around, you're going to
have to find a way to lookinside yourself and then
motivate yourself, and there'slots of different ways to do it.
We talk about prayer andmeditation.
Prayer simply means talking tothat power.
I talk to Jesus.
Jesus is my best friend.
I often think that Jesus wasone of us.
(51:33):
Who else would turn water intowine?
And you tell people cast yourbread upon the water and it will
be returned to you.
He says it all the time Sufferthe little children unto you.
What is kingdom of God, we saythat the newcomer is coming in
And so if you can connect withsomething like that, i pray.
(51:57):
I don't know why I wouldn'tcall it really pray.
I talk to Jesus.
I talk to him like I'm talkingto you.
Sometimes I argue with him Whatare you doing this?
And?
but it gives me the powerwithin myself to make look at it
and see who I am Now, if I canget that across to the people
(52:17):
who are coming in and looking togo out in the community and be
different from when they went in.
They need to understand that ifthe change is going to come,
they have to do it, and I'm notsuggesting that it's easy.
It takes time, it takesmotivation, it takes
understanding but, mostimportant, it takes willingness.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
I think probably in the home stretch here, due to
due to time that we have, wheredoes unity and community fit in?
We know where it fits in whenit comes to 12 step fellowships
It's unity.
It's that community is, thefellowship is a big piece for
the connectedness, yes, andthrough higher power and
(53:06):
spirituality.
How do you do that?
and your teachings through theacademy of that unity and
support.
Speaker 3 (53:16):
What I suggest to the men when this is coming toward,
when they're going into theirnext phase, what I suggest that
they use go back, go into theircommunity.
You'll find in your communitythat there are many needs, but
there are also many differentkinds of people that help and
(53:39):
work and do things in thecommunity that most people don't
even know about.
If you could just go into acommunity center and help kids,
go into a library and teach kidshow to read, do something that
will help lift up the personthat you're helping.
But it also gives you the senseof being of service, of doing
(54:01):
something and not expectanything in return.
That's spiritual growth.
Now, a lot of people that theytake spiritual growth to mean
some kind of religion and it'snot.
Spirituality comes from withinus.
That's where it is.
The spirit is right here, notout there somewhere.
If you can accept that and useit, you can do something.
(54:26):
What happens is you helpsomebody out there and at the
same time you grow.
Strange kind of concept I wouldhave never believed if I hadn't
come in here and saw it work,but now I know it's real.
It's true, I've done it for along time.
Before I came to ChristopherPlace.
I ran and developed publichousing all over the country.
(54:49):
I built and developed and didall kinds of public community
things in different places.
I was director of housing herein Annapolis for 10 years.
One of the things that I foundand if everywhere I went that if
you got to the people and letthem know you're doing something
for them that's going to helpthem, they will work with you.
(55:11):
We had probably some of thebest communities that we had in
public housing Simple ideas,honesty, truth, trust, faith,
persistence, willingness simpleprinciples.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
Do you have any success stories?
Speaker 3 (55:34):
Oh, lots, lots, lots.
I'll give you a couple examples.
We had a guy that wanted to bea doctor.
He came out, he went over toHopkins.
I got him connected withHopkins.
He went through a trainingprogram as an intern first and
they sent him to medical school.
(55:55):
Now he's practicing.
I know another guy that wantedto teach, another guy that
wanted to drive trucks andthey're all out doing it now.
Another guy that's working inthe community in the community
center set it up.
The new governor of Maryland isworking with him.
He's working with him.
Speaker 1 (56:14):
That's great.
That's awesome.
What do you think, Zo?
Speaker 2 (56:19):
That's great.
Yeah, i really enjoyed this.
I don't know why, or the wayyou asked the question to Harold
previous to the last aboutunity really reminds me to
conclude the whole conversationabout In Buddhism, the word that
is translated from, we talkabout truth, which is first,
(56:41):
noble truth, second, noble truth.
It comes from this word, tissa,which is a CCA, and the actual
translation that has beentranslated is that something
that always stays truthful,something that always stays
faithful, which is also thatsomething that never contradicts
itself.
So the way we're talking aboutprinciples is that, if I'm truly
(57:02):
paying attention, the unity Isee is something that never
contradicts itself.
It's always in harmony whereverI look at it.
So that just got me thinkingabout unity.
If I think about unity, it'ssomething that is truthful, that
it doesn't contradict itself,it stays united, it stays in
harmony.
So it makes me think of that,everything that we've been
(57:23):
talking about, to just payattention and do what's already
in harmony.
Speaker 3 (57:28):
You nailed it It's harmony.
Is what unity is Harmony?
working together to build eachother, stepping in and doing
something, no matter where youare.
Unity we have the same goalsand objectives and we help each
other do it.
It's what unity really is.
(57:50):
It's one of the reasons BillWilson made unity the first
tradition.
If we don't all stick together,we sure as hell fall apart.
Speaker 1 (58:04):
It started with Alcoholics Anonymous and there's
Narconic Anonymous, chemicalDependency, we know.
We've spread to GamblersAnonymous over Eaters, sex
Anonymous, and it goes on and on, on and on and on.
Yeah, a reason for that We alsohave a lot of listeners that
(58:25):
have never been locked up.
We have listeners that don'thave any issues with substance
use or abuse.
For the listener that may justhave some depression or anxiety
or past traumas, what would youtell, say to them, harold, when
it comes to these principlesthat you could give out to those
(58:49):
?
Speaker 3 (58:49):
The first thing I would say to someone who has
never had any kind of experiencewith opening up themselves and
looking at themselves is tostart to look at who you are.
Take some of these simple ideas.
They're everywhere.
You can go on Google and findthem.
Take those simple ideas andlook at yourself.
(59:10):
Look at yourself truly, Findsomeone that you trust and talk
to them.
Sharing is probably one of themost valuable changes that there
is.
Change and ask people that youtrust.
What do they think about youand what should you do?
(59:31):
It takes courage to do that toone of our principles.
It's not going to happen simplybecause you want to do it.
It takes courage.
But if you really want tobecome uplifted, if you really
want to be able to do thenaitashna ka, connect with that
power.
that's what you need to do.
The power is not out there.
You have it.
You are born with it.
(59:51):
What you need to do is how toconnect.
Speaker 1 (59:58):
Thank you, Harold.
I wish we had another hour.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
All right.
Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Thanks so much, harold, for joining us.
Thank you all for tuning inonce again And, as always,
please give us a like, a comment, a share And, as always,
collectively we can findsolutions to all things.
Health and wellness.
My name is Luke Duboy, this isZau.
We'll see you next time.
(01:00:26):
Thanks so much, thanks.
Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
Thank you, Good show So.
Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
Harold, thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.