A New State Flag

Oklahoma's first state flag was a white star on a red field designed by Ruth Clement. The flag never gained favor and by the 1920s red flags held a negative connotation due to the nationwide Red Scare. In 1924, the Daughters of the American Revolution held a contest to design a new state flag and Louise Fluke's winning entry was adopted on April 2, 1925. In this episode, Trait Thompson and Dr. Bob Blackburn discuss the history of the Oklahoma state flag against the backdrop of historic events happening in Oklahoma during the 1920s. Their guest is OHS state historian, Dr. Matthew Pearce. 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
(upbeat music playing)

(00:04):
(Trait Thompson) Hello and welcome to A Very OK Podcast.
My name is Trait Thompson.
I'm the executive director of the Oklahoma Historical Society.
And here with me as alwaysis Dr. Bob Blackburn.
Bob, it is great to see you again.
It is April in Oklahoma,which means here
recently, we have had thunderstorms and tornadoes
and some snow.
So you never know what you're going to getthis time of year in our great state.

(00:27):
(Dr. Bob Blackburn) Well, I woke up this morning and having breakfast with Debbie,
we just planted a new Japanese mapleoutside of our breakfast nook window.
And it's all leafed out. We have about15 Japanese maples around the place.
They're looking beautiful right now.
The bridal wreath is out.
The snowball is blooming.
Everything is just looking gorgeous.

(00:48):
We have a patch of creeping phloxthat just knocks your eyes out,
and it's just so bright.
So it's loving this cool weatherand the rain and,
in fact I'll be doing some gardeningthis afternoon.
(Thompson) Fantastic.
Yes, we've been doinga little bit of gardening ourselves.
We got, we have a beautiful Japanesemaple in our front yard.
And I love every year when it leaves out.
And, you know, speaking of springtimeand flowers and trees and everything,

(01:12):
I have to mention that Brian Dougherty was on last time as our guest,
and you and Brian had a great booksigning recently at Full Circle Books.
And it looked like you had a great crowd over there.
(Blackburn) We did.
I probably, I would guess 50 to 75people. Sold some books.
And we talked for a little while,and just,
I like being with Brian.
He brings a different perspective.

(01:33):
You know, I'm the historiancontext, politics, social change,
political leaders.
But he can talk about what trees worked
and what horticulturalistsaid, "let's do canas."
You know, he brings the plant world into this
conversation of parks and beautificationin the cities that I enjoy it so much.
So it's been great to work with him.

(01:53):
And he's a real asset to Oklahoma.
(Thompson) Well, and I have to ask you some of your tricks of the trade on book signing,
because I've had the one book
come out a couple of years agoabout the State Capitol.
And, as people are in those booksigning lines, I always recognize people
I know.
And I feel like that
I can't just do the standard,you know, best wishes and sign my name.
You feel like you have to write somethinga little bit personal,

(02:16):
but it's also right there in the moment.
You have to try to think of something.
How do you do that?
Because I know you signeda lot of books in your day.
(Blackburn) Well, my problem anymore
isn't so much the personal notes,but it's remembering names.
Someone who I've known for 40 years.
Oh hey, Bob, you know,sign this to me and my husband.
And I was like, now you're,

(02:37):
your name is spelled a little differently.
Spell it for me.You know, and I kind of walk around.
(Thompson) I love that.(Blackburn) But that's the yeah, that's the difficult part. Yeah.
And then you don't remember all these names.(Thompson) In the book signing line,
you can't just write it to buddy, to partner.
(Blackburn) Yeah, that is difficult.
But, Kirkpatrick Publishing Companythat published this book

(02:59):
had Brian and I signed 800 book markers
where if you're not there to get one signed,you can pick one up.
When the OHS is selling them,they'll have a stack of those.
Someone can take one of those, put it in and they've got a signed book.
So it took us four hoursto sign all of those.
So don't want to do that again.
But that was one way they did it.

(03:19):
So everyone can havea signature in their book.
(Thompson) There you go.
Tricks of the trade behind the scenes onhow you sign your book.
I want to bring into the conversationsomeone who's been on our podcast before
in our state parks episode and did doessuch a great job for the office.
He our state historian.He is Dr. Matthew Pearce.
And, Matt, is so greatto have you with us again here today.

(03:41):
You may be our first repeat guest.
I'd have to go back and check.
(Dr. Matthew Pearce) Well, if that's the case, then I am honored.
It's great to be back, as always.
Have me as many times as you want me, so happy to speak with you all today.
(Thompson) Matt, you might just mention a few of the things that you work on
on your role here as the state historian.(Pearce) Yeah, its been interesting now
since I've been in the positionfor a little over a year.

(04:01):
So, you know, one of my main things is,
I guess, one of my main programsis the Historical Marker Program.
We're coming up on our spring deadlinefor that program.
So if folks out there listening,
they want to get an applicationin, that deadline is May 15th.
Also coordinate The Encyclopediaof Oklahoma History and Culture.
Work on that with Dianna Everett.
And we have several entries,

(04:23):
they're getting ready toto be published.
Just got another entry inthe other day
that I'm editing rightnow, so, and then, you know,
since we had the subject for today's episodeon the state flag with that centennial,
Ive been doing quite a bit of researchon the state flag.
I feel like I can talk about that subjectin my sleep at this point.
(Thompson) Well, that's why you're here, to talkwith us about that subject.

(04:45):
And as Dr. Pearce mentioned,this is, this year
is the 100th anniversary of the adoptionof the Oklahoma state flag.
And actually, April 2, 1925, the flag
was officially adopted with the signatureof Governor Martin Trapp.
But the story of how we get to that momenthappening is a pretty fascinating story,

(05:07):
and we had a great event hereat the History Center on April 2,
which was the 100th anniversaryof the state flag being adopted.
And we had such great guests.
We had, Lieutenant GovernorMatt Pinnell was with us.
We had the chief of the Osage Nation, Geoffrey Standing Bear was with us.
Sue Allen from the Daughtersof the American Revolution,

(05:28):
Nancy Williamsfrom the Centenarian Society.
And maybe one of the most popular thingswe had was cake,
and a lot of it, to celebrate.How do you have a 100th birthday
celebration without a bunch of cake?
And, we had great attendance.
I'd say a couple hundred peopleat least showed up for this event.
Oh, and I can't forget we had a wonderfulchoir of students from

(05:52):
Oklahoma City Universitywho sung our state song, "Oklahoma!"
And everybody joined in.
So it was a wonderful event.
And I was really, really pleased
at how it all went off.(Blackburn) Well it was a high quality production.
And I especially like the videothat you two did,
It was well edited, well lit.

(06:12):
I thought your commentswere complementary
and I would guess what, 10 minutes,maybe 8 to 10?
(Thompson) Yeah, about about 8.5 minutes.
(Blackburn) So that would have been my guess.But it was just the right length.
And hopefully it'll be onlineso people can find that after this
they hear this podcast.
(Thompson) Yes, it actually is online.
It's on our Oklahoma Historical SocietyYouTube channel.

(06:33):
So after you listen to this podcast,you can go watch it.
And I do have to give a shout out to Cruz Pulido, who is our videographer,
and also usually is the editorof this podcast.
Today, Jason Bondy is filling in,and Jason always does a great job.
But, Cruz is a relatively new addition
to the office, and he has already made his mark.

(06:56):
And this is his first, I would say,kind of big production to do for us.
And this is something that we've wantedto do at the OHS for a while.
And I'm really, really gladthat we are moving in that direction now.
(Pearce) Yeah, I think he,I thought he did a fantastic job.
(Thompson) And I thought we soundedreally smart on there, Matt.
(Pearce) And that's all Cruz, you're right.
He picked the good part.(Blackburn) Good editing. Yeah that's right.

(07:17):
(Thompson) That's exactly right.(Pearce) That's the purpose of a good editor.
(Thompson) Well let's jump into thisthis topic here today.
And I really want to start outby talking about,
you know, we're talking about 1925.
But the 1920s in Oklahomais a really fascinating time.
It's a time of change in our stateparticularly
we are growing up out of this sort ofmaybe a dusty frontier state

(07:42):
when Oklahoma and Indian Territorywere joined together in 1907.
It feels like by the 1920s,
we're starting to figure outhow we get along with each other
and how we are one statewhere we're growing by leaps and bounds.
In fact, the population of Tulsain 1920 was 72,000 people,

(08:02):
which had quadrupled since 1910,and the population of
Oklahoma City was 91,000,which had increased by 42% since 1910.
So we are a state that isgrowing by leaps and bounds,
and we are wanting to make our mark.
And the flag is one way
we are going to do that.
Bob, I think it'd be greatif you could give us

(08:22):
a little bit of contextabout this wild and wooly place,
because it is, there is a lot going on inOklahoma in the 1920s.
(Blackburn) Well, it really is.
And I always like to startwith the transportation,
because that is such a big partof economic development, social structure.
And the period from 1900 to 1910

(08:43):
was really the age of buildingrailroads in Oklahoma.
There were more miles of track
laid in that one 10-year periodthan all other decades combined.
So we go from being isolated towns,having isolated towns across the state,
with almost insular populations,where there you still have
a mom and pop general storeswhere they're, they're trading,

(09:07):
you know, goods for butter and creamthat they can get to market somewhere.
But these railroadsmake all the difference.
So this is the beginning of urban growth,not just Oklahoma City in Tulsa,
but in towns like Chickasha and Ponca City and Elk City, Atoka.
And railroads are connectingOklahomans with the rest of the world.

(09:27):
Well, as that's happening,the economy is booming for

for really three reasons: one, the value of land. (09:31):
undefined
After a general allotment,after five years of homesteading
with all of the land openingsand public lands to the west,
and for five yearsthey could borrow money against it.
So money begins to flow into people's pockets
because they could actuallyhave some land, some wealth to say, okay,

(09:53):
I want a $200 loan to put in another crop,build a barn,
to buy a new buggy, then a new car.
And so that's beginning to change.
And then you throwon top of the agricultural boom,
you throw the oil and gas, mainly natural gas was largely a byproduct,
but oil at least, the first big field, 1905.

(10:14):
But by the '20s you startgetting a major strike almost everywhere
every year. In the '20s,the two biggest ones would have been
the Seminole Fieldand Oklahoma City Field.
So from '23 to '28, you get those twothat are bigger than all the others
combined.
And so oil is flowingthrough these communities, creating
jobs, drawing people, and the populationis growing because of that.

(10:38):
But it's also a time of social change.
It, there's no, it's no accident
that this is the age of the Ku Klux Klan in Oklahoma.
It was not so muchto put Black people back
in their place as they would have said,because they were in their place already.
We had a segregated community, had beenthat way, de facto even before statehood.

(10:58):
Then was statehood.
It was in written in statute,
and it was in people's heartsas well as minds of the law.
So we had a segregated community,
but we had the All-Black townsthat were prospering.
Boley in the 1920s grows to 5,000 people.
And so in the citieswithin a city here
in Oklahoma City, Deep Deuce,and in Tulsa, Greenwood, are growing.

(11:19):
And even in Tulsa.
Despite the Tulsa Race Massacre in 1921,it recovers quickly.
And I'm so glad they called the museumover there Greenwood Rising
because it really didrise back and recover.
And people still were flockingbecause they had the jobs,
they had the communities,they had the things people want.
And so you have this social change,

(11:42):
and then you have things like movies
coming into these little movie theatersthat are built in almost every little town
with the morals of Hollywoodin New York City or even Paris.
Shocking.
You know, these evangelical Christianswho are in these little towns.
And so suddenly you get this,this reaction to social change,
to economic change.

(12:03):
And the Ku Klux Klanis really a reactive organization.
They don't wantthe immoral movies coming in,
and they don't wantCatholics moving into their communities.
There was as much animositytowards Catholics
as there would have been against African Americans at the time.
So it's a period of division to me.

(12:25):
I still think we'rein this transition period,
but American Indians are still considereda natural resource
to be exploited by most Oklahomans at the time.(Thompson) Yeah.
(Blackburn) Our first senator,
US senator, our first governor, both were part of taking land
away from American Indians and feelinggood about it and bragging about it.
Oklahoma City is being built by people moving here

(12:47):
after accumulating wealth,
especially in the Muscogee (Creek) Nation.
And but other Indian nations.
Osage somewhat.
But there you have a little different system,
but there's a lot of wealth that's coming upby exploiting American Indians.
And not until the '30s that we startreally beginning to change that attitude.
It's still there in Oklahomatoday, though, in 2025,

(13:10):
just as there is racismagainst African Americans.
But it's all changingand it's a turbulent time period.
And beyond the economic and social changes
we get the political chaos of the age.
This is a decade
and early in the decade when two governorsare impeached and removed from office.
We've had others impeached,
but only twice have we hada governor removed from office.

(13:32):
And it's this time period, 1923.
Again, in 1927.
And so you get,these changes politically.
Oklahomans are a little schizophrenic.
Who are we going to elect?
We elect kind of a street brawler,
street corner politician like Jack Walton,who had been mayor of Oklahoma City,
had been just kind of a ward heeler,old time politician.

(13:55):
He would have fit right in with Tammany Hall in in New York,
but he is elected governor on a plankand messes it up almost immediately.
(Thompson) Very populist, very populist.
(Blackburn) Bumps up against the the capitalists.
The bankers bumps up against the Ku Klux Klan,
bumps up againstalmost everybody else.

(14:16):
And within one year,he is removed from office.
Same thing whathappened to Henry Johnson.
Henry was not so much doing
the bad things, but as Irvin Hurst,I got to know him.
Old time historian, newspaper journalist,
who actually interviewedHenry Johnston in the 1920s.
And he was alive when I came aroundthe Capitol in the in the '70s.

(14:36):
And I said, what was his real crime?
He was incompetent.
And he just couldn't handle things.
It was too complicated.
He had been really a territorialkind of politician.
Just happened to be the only one runningwhen he was elected.
And this is the age thoughof a political leader

(14:56):
that I actually studied
quite a bit in grade school under LeRoy Fischer's guidance, wrote an article about
Martin Trapp, the governorno one had ever heard of,
and Martin Trapphad been lieutenant governor.
He was a businessman in selling bonds,oil and gas, real estate,
just kind of a front tier business person,typical Oklahoman.
But he had strongties to the business community,

(15:20):
and no one even knew what the lieutenantgovernor did at the time.
Theoretically, he presided overthe Senate, but the Senate would kick out
the lieutenant governorif they tried to really preside.
They didn't want the interloper there.
And so he didn't have an office,much less a staff.
So he was out doing business.
Well, suddenly he is there on the scenewhen Jack Walton is impeached

(15:41):
in 1923, becomes governor,has almost three years,
maybe more than three years.(Thompson) And tried to make the case
that he wasn't the real governorso that he could run for reelection.
And the Supreme Court said no.(Blackburn) Exactly.
And that's why Henry Johnston was elected,because at the last minute,
he's kicked out of the racebecause he was so popular.
But he is the governorwho looks at this chaos and this change.

(16:06):
But he comes up with some changes,some reforms that work.
One was he wanted a more modern,efficient transportation system.
And so,
for four years,Oklahoma could have received
matching grantsfrom the federal government
to build highwaysrather than just stopping at county lines.

(16:27):
And so we couldn't even get into that race because we had no fun.
We didn't have a highway departmentwith the professional engineers.
Trapp said, we've got to change that.
He became the good roads governor.
That was his reputation.
Legislature responded,and they created what we now call ODOT
in 1923 with the first tax on goodsat the state level at least.

(16:50):
And that was for gasoline.
So I think it was two and a half centsa gallon.
And that would go into a fund split 60/40; 60, the state,
40% to county commissioners.
That's why we have Route 66Centennial coming up.
All of that started with Martin Trapp.
He also saw a problemwith law enforcement.
This is an age when law enforcementwas at the county level

(17:10):
or in as a county subunit.
City governmentscould have their own police force,
but largely was that county law.
And they were being outgunned outand driven in outlaws cars.
And they wanted to do something.
But the county commissioners are so strong,he had to compromise.
And Martin Trapp
and the legislature compromised bigby creating what we now call OSBI,

(17:33):
Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation.
And with limited powers,
they had to be asked by a sheriffto come into their county.
But it was another wayto look at the state as a whole,
rather than these little micro unitsof counties and cities.
And of course, settlement patternshad been a patchwork quilt of differences
anyway. That made Oklahomaa difficult place to govern.

(17:55):
And here he starts
coming up, no it wouldn't be until 1937that E. W. Marland gets a bill passed
to create the Highway Patrol,which was a real uniform police organization.
But Martin Trapp saw that coming.
And so Martin, was a professional.
He was smart.
He knew how to work withothers, had good connections,

(18:17):
and he got a lot done and helped changethe state as it's going through
all of these transformationsand changes, growth.
And we would remain the fastestgrowing state in the nation until 1930.
(Thompson) I would have to think that if you were going to make a list of Oklahoma's
good governors throughout history,Martin Trapp
would be somewhat near the top,if maybe not at the top,

(18:37):
for how he carried himself out,particularly coming off the chaos
that Jack Walton had caused in his very,very short tenure in the office.
Matt, one of the other things that is happening
at this particular time in history,and this will have a definite impact.
It this has definite relationto what we want to talk about today.

(19:00):
But during the 1920s,you have the Osage reign of terror.
(Matt) Yeah. That's right.
And not just what's going onwith, on the Osage reservation, but also,
swindling of Muscogee (Creeks),
Cherokees, any allotmentsthat had potential leases for oil.
And so you have guardians,many of whom are under,

(19:24):
you know, have questionable intent,who are,
you know,looking to acquire those oil leases
and get those mineral rights and oil leases.
So, yeah,that's happening throughout,
you know, in the Osage Nation also,throughout northeast Oklahoma at the time
because, you mentioned the explosivegrowth of a city like Tulsa.

(19:45):
I mean, that's largelybecause of the oil industry.
And then same thing, the opening of theof the Oklahoma City oil field as well.
All the, you know, petroleum is drivingall of this growing growth,
and also exploitation of Native lands.
(Thompson) So let's go back in our talkabout the flag,
and let's go back to the very beginning,because interestingly enough,

(20:06):
at the Constitutional Convention, Matt,
there is no mention of creating a flag.
And you would think thatif that would have been
something important to them,they would have done it at the
Constitutional Convention, because they did everything
at the Constitutional Convention,including a description
of how the state sealwas to look, the flash point of kerosene.

(20:27):
So they threw everything in the kitchensink into the Constitution,
but not a flag.You know, talk about that a little bit.
(Pearce) And that's somewhat interesting,because this is at the same time
that there are other statesthat are starting to adopt state flags.
This is early 20th century,the Progressive Era.
And so a number of states are startingto adopt flags and developing flag

(20:48):
codes for their respective state flags,and also for the US flag.
The Pledge of Allegiance,I think, was written in 1892.
And so this is also at the same timethat you're starting
to see some normalizationof how people are supposed
to salute the US flagwith the Pledge of Allegiance.
And because, of course,this is the Progressive Era,

(21:09):
so, you know, you mentioned howOklahoma itself is it is changing rapidly.
I mean, that's just a microcosmof what's going on across
the United States with industrialization,with immigration.
And so this is a periodwhen states in the nation
as a whole is attempting to definewhat does it mean to be an American?
What does it mean to be an Oklahoman?

(21:30):
And what are our symbolsthat help convey that meaning?
And so, but interestingly enough, atthe Constitutional Convention
in 1907, there's no discussion ofof how to adopt a state flag.
There is, the yearafter the Constitutional Convention,
Governor Haskell commissions a groupof almost 100 women to come to Guthrie

(21:52):
and sew the 46 star flag
that would be, per tradition at the time,when a new state was
added to the union, a new US flagwith the appropriate number of stars
would fly over Independence Hallin Philadelphia at that next 4th of July.
And so, in preparationfor those fest festivities,

(22:13):
Governor Haskell gets this group togetherto sew a new flag.
And of course, then gets sent off toto Independence Hall and,
flies on July 4, you know, 1908.
And then Governor Haskell,you know, sent notices
statewide to when, you know,when that happened on July 4, that,
you know, people throughout their respective communities,
Oklahoma would gather andand recognize the moment as well.

(22:36):
But, yeah, it took a few years beforethere was an actual
concerted effortto develop a state flag for Oklahoma.
(Thompson) This is a pretty interesting story.
And while it doesn't relatedirectly to the creation
of the Oklahoma state flag,as I was doing my research into this,
I found this to be pretty fascinatingbecause there was a request sent
by officials at the city of Philadelphiafor Oklahoma to get together

(22:59):
and sew this flag, so Governor Haskell invites 92 women from 20 cities
across the stateto meet at the Carnegie Library
in Guthrie,and each one of them was to sew on a star.
Of course, we have a new 46 star flag.
So one star on each side.
And that flag was to be transportedto Philadelphia
and flown over the IndependenceHall on July the 4th.

(23:24):
And at the same time, folks from the Betsy Ross Association
in Philadelphia are making their own46 star flag.
And these two flags were exchanged.
So after the July 4th holiday,we brought back
the flag that was sewn by the BetsyRoss Association.
The flag that we had made here in Oklahomastayed with the archives

(23:45):
at Independence Hall, which I believeare still in those archives.
(Pearce) I think so, because I know there was, there was a scare
after the sinking of the USS Oklahomabecause, in 1941,
I believe it was flying a 46 star flag at the time.
And I remember reading some newspaperswhere there was concern
that when the USS Oklahoma was sunk,that that flag was the original

(24:09):
46 star flag and went down with the ship.
Turns out that wasn't the case.
It was a manufactured flag.
And the original is, they foundthe original was still in the archives
at Independence Hall.(Thompson) And part of the technology of the time,
the people in Philadelphiaassociated with Independence Hall,
they wanted Oklahoma
and the people gathered in Independence Hall to gather together

(24:33):
and to sing the national anthemall at one time.
So this ceremony was at noon onJuly the 4th,
which would have been 11:00 herein Oklahoma.
And the minute that the flag was hoistedup, they were going to start singing
and they pressed the button,
which sent a telegraphic signalto Oklahoma, which let everyone know here

(24:53):
gathered that they were supposed to startsinging "The Star Spangled Banner."
So I find this so interestingjust because it's a mix of 1920s,
sorry, 1908 technology with this ideathat we want to all be together
at one time as a countryand singing the national anthem together.
And one of the things that GovernorHaskell said is, let our first

(25:14):
4th of July in the state of Oklahomabe long remembered as one devoted
to the expressionsof loyalty and patriotism.
And it wasn't until
a woman named Ruth Clement comes on the scene that we start
even thinking about our ownOklahoma version of our own flag.

(25:35):
And, Matt, I know you've donequite a bit of research into Ruth Clement.
You want to tell us a little bitabout who she was?
(Pearce) Yeah, I think, I, I'm finding her storyvery interesting.
Of course,
and we'll be talking about her later,
Louise Fluke.
Of course, we know quite a bit about Louise Fluke and
and her rolewith the current state flag,
but I've, you know, in doing thisresearch, you know, Ruth Clement

(25:57):
and the first state flag, the 46 flag,is kind of seen as it's overlooked.
It's seen as this kind of oddityin Oklahoma history and
and then kind of just continueto do some digging and found out
that there really wasn't a whole loton Ruth and on her stories.
So and, you know, I've been doingsome digging and some research on her.
She was born in 1873 in Kentucky.

(26:19):
Her father was
a veteran of the Confederate Armywho fought
in I think one of the Kentucky Mounted Regiments,
and marries a physician in Kentucky
and they live in Kansas for a while.
He had, her husband, had a practicein Marquette, Kansas, for a time.
And then they find their way,to Oklahoma,

(26:43):
around 1904 or 1905.
Interestingly enough,her husband, William,
had two older sisters,both of whom married brothers
of future Oklahoma governor Lee Cruce.
They're allin that same region of Kentucky.
And then, you know, the Cruces
of course, they came to Indian Territoryand got their start in Ardmore,

(27:06):
with their law firmand so forth prior to Lee's election.
And I think that's kind of how, Ruth and William Clement
found their way to Oklahoma as well was through those connect,
those family connectionsthat they had developed.
And ultimately, Williamsets up a practice in Oklahoma City.
And and Ruth is is really much,really involved

(27:28):
with a number of, of women'scivic organizations.
She's active in,
when they moved Oklahoma City,
she's active in the Oklahoma CityFederation of Women's Clubs.
She's active, notably with her fatherbeing a Confederate veteran,
she becomes a leading figure
in the in the state divisionfor the Daughters of the Confederacy.
when she's designing the state flag.
And in 1910, 1911, that'swhen she's serving as president of the

(27:50):
of the state division.
And then also ultimately becomes
a member of the Daughtersof the American Revolution.
And there's a number of other, civic groups that, that she's a part of.
I think she's emblematic of,
you know, especially the role of womenin women's roles in defining patriotism,
citizenship and their role in developing, state symbols.

(28:13):
So but she's,so she's very much active.
And I think because of her, you know,haven't, you know, found the, you know,
the, the piece of correspondencesort of thing that really confirmed this.
But I think it's because of her families,her extended familys,
her in-laws connections with, Lee Cruce,
I think that gave her the, the avenue to,you know, to speak to those to develop,

(28:37):
you know, some sort of state flagfor Oklahoma in 1911.
(Thompson) It doesn't seem to have been something
that was particularly celebrated.
In 1911, the third legislatureadopted the new flag
with Senate Concurrent Resolution
number 25 on March 2, 1911.

(28:58):
And Joseph Thoburn later said this design was adopted with no opposition
and a manifest lack of enthusiasmduring the legislative session of 1911.
Bob, you want to tell us whoJoseph Thoburn was?
(Blackburn) Oh, Joseph Thoburn is one of my heroes because he was an early
executive director of the Oklahoma Historical Society,
wrote the first textbookon Oklahoma history in 1907.

(29:21):
Started with the Chamber of Commerce,really the transition
from a merchants associationto a real chamber of commerce in 1898,
he was there as the secretary of that,working with Anton Classen and
C. J. Gristmill Jones and a few others.
But Thoburn was a journalistby training,
a community leaderby just temperament and ability,

(29:44):
and later,did some of the first archaeology
in the state at Spiro,what we now call Spiro Mounds.
Helped draft the law that protectsthose sites from exploitation.
But he was he was a really good man.
And we have an award namedafter Joseph Thoburn.
I got to work with his daughter and sonin law in establishing that years ago.
But I have a theorywhy it was not popular at the time

(30:07):
and, you know,if we think about our own identities
as we grow up, typically as a young person, you know,
identify with a geographical place,mainly your city.
So, you know, you're in Chickasha,
you're in Claremore,or you're in Oklahoma City or whatever.
But in terms of grasping
the concept of this political unitthat has political boundaries.

(30:28):
So when you fly over an airplane, well,where are the boundaries?
You know,there's just no way to comprehend
what really is isso not until your 20s and 30s and
and then later patriotism grows becauseyou have that identity and shared memory.
But in the 1910s,
there are almostno second-generation Oklahomans.
People would still say, I am a Kentuckian.

(30:51):
I am from Illinois, I am from Missouri.
They would identify with the placesthat they had come from
and most Oklahomans other than American Indians and many African Americans
who had come with them especially asslaves, really don't have this identity.
Oh, they're part of something greater.
And so they bring that heritage. Andbecause I work with genealogical groups

(31:14):
now for almost 50 yearsand pull them in to the historical society.
One time it was kind of a, an antecedent, antagonistic
relationship betweenthe genealogical community and the former
people who ran the Historical Society at one point.
We're bringing that in.
You have to bring in their pridein Kentucky and their pride

(31:36):
in Ohio and their prideand where they came from.
I don't think we had much of a conceptthat we were Oklahomans
by that time,and that would come another generation.
People would grow up hereand finally say, yeah, yeah, I am
a native of Chickasha, but, you know, Oklahoma too.
And there's and I've shared memoriesof what's happening in the state to

(31:57):
to really develop that.
So I think it was too earlyto really generate a flag
like what Matt said about thisnew patriotism in the country.
I always, when I gave a speech about it,I always say, well,
look at Theodore Roosevelt.
He sent this white Navy around the worldand people were so patriotic
and proud of it.
We had won a war against a European power,the Spaniards, in 1898.

(32:22):
And suddenly there's patriotism,along with our industrial might,
just creates this American patriotismthat you see with Theodore Roosevelt
and why he just love so much,because he embodied that.
That was Theodore Roosevelt.He didn't have to act.
He loved the country.
He loved the Navy.
He loved the American spirit.
But here in Oklahoma,
it was premature. And peopledon't realize how young the state is.

(32:46):
And so many of the issues are dealing withwith the legislature, things,
you know, when people ask meto try to explain something,
I usually start with youthand settlement patterns.
We all came from a different place,
bring in different cultural baggage,different worldviews.
And I don't think they were ready to saythere is one symbol that represents
who we are, and that really wouldn't comeuntil the 1920s.

(33:08):
(Thompson) Yeah, the red flag.
It really, and I don't know thatwe described what the flag was
that Ruth Clement designed,but it was a flag with a red field.
It had a white star in the middle,
and in the middle of the white star,outlined in blue
was the number 46, which basically meantOklahoma was the 46th state.
And later on in 1927,Mrs. Andrew Hickam,

(33:32):
who was the state regent of the
Daughters of the American Revolution, said this flag unfortunately expressed
nothing of the sentimentor historical significance of Oklahoma
and never made a successful appealto the popular interest in the state.
It had often been dubbedthe red flag of sedition,
and with Oklahomataking the lead in the financial

(33:53):
as well as the intellectual world,it was not to our best interest
to go marching to the front,waving a red flag.
And that speaks of what else is going onin the 1920s, which is this, in 1917,
you have the Bolshevik Revolutionin Russia.
You have many,
especially in the northwestern part,were embracing socialism, Matt.

(34:16):
(Pearce) Yeah, and I think, to piggybacka bit off of of Bob's comment earlier,
there's a generational divide
going on here, too,because especially if you think of
Ruth Clement and Louise Fluke,you know, Ruth comes to Oklahoma,
before statehood comes here in about 1904.
You know, has a husband, daughter.

(34:38):
She's caring for herwidowed mother by that point.
Compare that with Louise Fluke,who comes to Oklahoma, I believe,
She's born in 1900 and comes in 1901.
So grows up in the state.
And and then also, you know,and then to to get to your comment
grows up during the war,the First World War

(34:59):
and then with the aftermath of that,with the Red Scare
and then the Roaring 1920s.
And so, you know, with, with the US participation
in the First World War,I mean, that's really in Oklahoma,
I mean, you had,
you know, some participation in Oklahomawith the Spanish-American War,
with your participation, the Rough Riders unit.

(35:20):
But really, the First World War isis a chance for Oklahomans
to you know, announce,you know, to can pronounce
their presenceon the national stage and say, yes,
we can contribute to this largernational cause.
And so you know, you have many Oklahomanswho, for the first time and for the first
and perhaps only time, that they traveloverseas, to fight in Europe.

(35:44):
They're exposed to, you know, towhat's going on over there.
You have Oklahomans who are staying hereon the home front or supporting the war
through their various ways,whether it's growing wheat or
victory gardens and all those other things.
And so you have this kind of,you know, this collective
effort on behalf of, of a causethat's larger than themselves.

(36:07):
And then the backlashagainst that, especially with the
with the Russian Revolutionand organized labor and and so forth.
So, you know, with, after the war,of course, the United States
had mobilized its economyto support the war effort.
And then after the war, they'd done so in part
to and made some concessionswith organized labor, say, hey,

(36:28):
yes, we recognizesome of the things that you want,
but we really need to win this conflictand we'll address
these other things about workingconditions and wages and so forth.
We'll address those, those after the war.
Well, you know, organized laborheld them to, to that.
And so you have massive strikeshappening in 1919.
You have a coal, you know, the coal minersstrike in southeastern Oklahoma,

(36:48):
for instance.
And, and the backlash against that,because basically anything that was that,
you know, was any effort alongthose lines was seen as associated with
with communism and socialism, giventhe context of the Russian Revolution.
And so you see this, backlash against,
you know, anything perceivedas as radical, and even to the point

(37:09):
that in 1919, the statelegislature enacted a law forbidding
the waving of a red flag if it was, for,I believe, treasonous activities.
However, they defined that, and I thinkit's only been, I think, enforced once.
I think during an anti-VietnamWar protest in the late '60s or early '70s.

(37:29):
But of course, that legislationis passed in 1919, and you could
look at cities across the country,and they're doing similar ordinances
and in those sort of things.
So essentially the perception of anything radical as red,
definitely reflectedpoorly would, would be seen
as reflecting poorly on a statethat's wanting to look patriotic.

(37:51):
And so, you know,I never saw anything in my research
where the, the 46 flagis associated with organized labor
or comes to be associatedwith socialism in Oklahoma.
But that that red field,I think, you know, I think especially once
we adopt a new state flag and it's widelyaccepted and becomes very popular.

(38:15):
I think that just, you know, the red 46 flag,
it's just been seen more and more just,you know, it was too red.
It was it was socialist.
It was too radicalfor what Oklahomans really wanted
and what they wantedthe world to see them as.
(Blackburn) I just want to make this real short here.
One thing adding to that, too, is thatOklahoma culture is Scots-Irish culture

(38:38):
by the 1910s and '20s.
And even though as as, Senator Webb,
James Webb, as he writes ina book about Scots-Irish culture,
America may not be the majority of the population,but it's such a strong focus culture.
Others absorb it.
In Oklahoma, even today,I can describe a lot of things

(38:59):
going on in Oklahoma as Scots-Irish,and one of those is fear
of distant governmentbecause of Scottish Highlanders.
And then the Irishmancomes out those two experiences,
those Englishmen from Londonwere the enemy and anybody
coming into your valley is to be distrusted.
You know, go hide your weapons.

(39:19):
Today, don't mess with a gun on my hip.
In a fear of distance.
That's why so many Oklahoma leadershave been against the New Deal coming to Oklahoma.
Murray said we don't want it.
And then you have another governor saying,
we don't want that moneycoming from the Obama administration.
And, then against Biden's admin, we don'twell, usually they took the money.

(39:40):
But, you know, theythey had a distrust of,
well, that 46 star refers
to Oklahoma's role within the 46 states.
It's not it's not reflecting us.
It's reflecting an external thing.
And that Scots-Irish culture does not like that external.
We don't want to be
part of the United States, states' rights,which is still an issue today

(40:02):
at the federal level, as well as statestate rights as a Scots-Irish,
demandalmost coming out of their culture.
And that's the way Oklahomans would've looked at it at the time.
(Thompson) And with that, we'll take a short break.
(Announcer) Join us for the
Oklahoma History Symposium on Saturday,May 3, at the Oklahoma History Center

(40:23):
in Oklahoma City.
This year's keynote speaker is award-winning Cherokee-Kiowa filmmaker Loren Waters.
Loren will share insightsfrom her powerful short documentary
Meet Me at the Creek, spotlightingRebecca Jim's inspiring efforts to restore
Tar Creek in Miami, Oklahoma.With credits on acclaimed projects

(40:44):
such as Reservation Dogs, Fancy Dance,and Killers of the Flower Moon,
Loren brings a unique perspectiveto storytelling
that bridges history and contemporaryIndigenous experiences.
This event is free and open to the public.
Register now at okhistory.org/symposium.

(41:05):
(Thompson) Interestingly enough, in recent years
the red flag has had a bit of a resurgencehere in Oklahoma.
There was a specialty licenseplate made in 2015 and 2016 that had the,
it was a red plate that had the starin the middle with the 46.
And it had our motto on it,our state motto,
Labor Omnia Vincit, which means"work conquers all things."

(41:27):
And if you want to know the historybehind that Latin saying,
you can go back and listen to our podcastentitled Labor Omnia Vincit
where we talk all about the labor movementin Oklahoma.
But, many people, it became
a very popular license plateand many people adopted it.
I actually have a red Nissan Xterraand thought it would go well on that.

(41:48):
So I adopted it early on as well.
And now as peopleare driving around the state,
you see the red license plate,which is based off of the red state flag.
And, in 2017,we observed the 100th anniversary
of the State Capitol,and we ordered many of these red flags
because that would have been the flagin, in effect at the time.

(42:11):
And we flew those flagsover the State Capitol and there are photos
out there of that happening.
So the red flag is kind ofhad a bit of nostalgia.
I think many people had forgottenthat we had a flag before the blue flag.
Matt.(Pearce) Yeah, no.
And I think it's it's been really funnyto see, because I mean, of course,
you know, disclaimer I'm not originallyfrom Oklahoma. Im from Colorado originally,

(42:33):
and so came to Oklahoma,you know, in the early 2000s.
And, you know, especially seeing the renovation
of the Capitol doneand seeing the first state flags
that are flying and similar typeof you know remark for me is like huh,
I didn't realize that Oklahoma had,had a state flag before
the current state flag.
And so, I think it is it's seen as aninteresting episode in Oklahoma history,

(42:59):
and it has been, has been making a,a resurgence of, of sorts.
And, but I think it also,you know, to kind of again,
go off of, of Bob's commentabout what it says about Oklahoma.
I was giving a presentation to a group,
about a month or so agoabout, state flags in Oklahoma.

(43:20):
And we were talking about the newthe new license plate and someone recently,
she just said she's like,oh, so that's that's what the 46 means.
It means 46th state.
I thought, OU had a star football player with the number 46.
So it kind of goes back to Bobscomment about how,
what does it say about Oklahoma?
And and especially not justwhat it's what it can

(43:43):
what how we can use it to expresswho we are as Oklahoma's to each other.
But another purpose of a state flagis to announce
kind of what a stateis to its neighboring states.
And so, like, if I'm going back to my,you know, home, you know,
visit my parents in Colorado with thatwith that new license plate on,
they're going to wonderwhat does the 46 mean?

(44:05):
(Thompson) You know, it's interestingyou mention that because Congresswoman Bice,
who is a friend of mineand I worked with her
when I was a Senate stafferover across the street, but
she had asked for a little bit of historyon the red state flag.
And, Matt, I actually asked youto do to do that, for us.
So you've been working on the flag.(Pearce) Ive been working with the flag

(44:27):
for a very long time.(Thompson) But she said that constituents were writing
or calling in and saying, you know, upsetbecause they thought the 46
met the 46th president of the United States,which is Joe Biden.
And so.(laughter)
Oh, so she wanted to be able to tell them
that that's not what the 46 meant.(Blackburn) Conspiracy theories on the internet.

(44:47):
(Thompson) And so I thought that was pretty funny.
Well, let's get into,let's get into the selection
of our current state flag,which just celebrated its 100th birthday.
And Bob, your hero, Joseph Thoburn,wrote this in a Chronicles article later,
he said in 1924,I took the liberty of addressing a letter
to the president
of the Oklahoma Society of the Daughtersof the American Revolution, suggesting

(45:11):
that the Oklahoma state flaghad failed to make a successful appeal
to popular appreciation and support,and with further suggestion
that the Oklahoma DAR might fittinglypropose a change. So, in effect,
Mr. Thoburn took it upon himself to say,we need to change this.
(Blackburn) He was a leader and

(45:32):
I think he saw himself as an Oklahoman.
And so when he had a chanceto write that first history
and then later revised itwith Muriel Wrights co-authorship,
also associated with the OHS at the time.
I think that he really was a patriotfor Oklahoma.
He showed in his career, andI think it came out in those statements
you just shared.

(45:53):
(Thompson) And Matt, the DAR seemed to take this on
as a project that they wanted to do with enthusiasm.
They set up a selection committee,
made up of a few of their membersfrom across the state,
and then the word went outacross the state for people
to begin submitting their designsfor a new state flag.
(Pearce) Yeah, I think that goes back to, you know, the previous comment I made about the role

(46:16):
that women played in helpingdefine citizenship and patriotism.
I mean, this is, you know, the women'ssuffrage movement had been successful
by this point in getting thethe right to vote for women.
But for for many women, this was a,you know, this through their clubs
and organizations like the DAR, that was howthey expressed their political activism.

(46:38):
And that was seen as a suitable rolefor women at the time.
And so, you know, it makes perfect sensethat Thoburn would reach out
to an organization like the Daughters of the American Revolution
who saw themselves as the as the stewardsof American patriotism
and, and worked with themto organize this competition.
And again,it sets up a nice contrast with,

(46:59):
you know, everything that I've seen with
Ruth Clements and her work,everything I've seen, she did it
alone, like, and in terms of designin the state, the first state flag.
The DAR comes in,
and it's a very different approach.
And it's as a statewide competition. It's
and so they encouraging their members to,to submit their design proposals.

(47:20):
It's going to be subjectto a review committee.
And then they'll submit thethe ones that they choose up to the,
to the state legislature.
So there's there's more buy inn
I think from the, from the start, for this new state flag.
(Thompson) And one of the women who takesthis on as a project
is an art student who was bornin, or was from Shawnee, Oklahoma.

(47:42):
She had trained at Columbia Universityand the Chicago Art Institute.
And it's Louise Funk Fluke.
Fluke was her married name.
And so she took this on as a project.
And we have great oral history archiveswith Miss Fluke
talking abouthow she approached this project.
And if you watch the video that we talkedabout earlier in this podcast,

(48:05):
you'll get to hear her voiceand in some of this in her own words.
But she basically said, you know,she was intrigued by this
and wanted to do the project.
She was also in the processof getting married at the time,
and she was hand-making her weddingdress, which I thought was great.
But Bob, she goes to the Oklahoma Historical Society,

(48:26):
which was thenin the basement of the State Capitol,
because our building wouldn'tbe built until 1930.
And she meets with Dr. Thoburn and says,
you know, I'm interested in doing this.
And he helps her out.
(Blackburn) Yeah. He, pointed, he he liked the blue that he saw on other flags.

(48:47):
Of course, if you think of the American flag, the blue stands out.
The red and white stripes are there, butthe blue is what really makes it striking.
And I think a lot of Oklahomansare proud of the blue sky, you know.
So he pointed at the blue colors to her.
And then he really liked that Osage shield
that, I think you still have thaton display now.

(49:08):
It's been on display offand on for for decades.
But he looked at that as a defensive
symbol of of courage and bravery.
Protecting your home, protecting your family, protecting your community.
Sacrifice above self.
You know, all of the symbolismthat is in a defensive shield,
and a shield would not have been usedas an offensive weapon.

(49:30):
It was bison hide. But it would protect.
And, you know, how do we protect our land?
And I think he was drawn to thatand drew her attention to that.
And he would have understoodthe meaning of that shield.
(Thompson) Matt, Dr. Thoburnfelt that there should be Indian symbology

(49:50):
on the flag,because we were the Indian nation.
Can you talk a little bit about that?
(Pearce) Yeah, I mean, and that goes back to,you know, the merging of Oklahoma
and Indian Territoriesand how can you develop a symbol
that symbolizes what this new state is?
Whereas this combinationof Native peoples and settlers

(50:13):
and the development of a statewithin that context.
And so the Osage shield,I think, presented a good symbol.
As Bob mentioned, it symbolizes defense.
And then also, you know, adding on the other two
main symbols that are in the flag,the olive branch and the calumet,
the two symbols of peace,you know, from those respective cultures

(50:37):
and to have those superimposedon the shield,
you know, it was meant to convey,again, 1925 Oklahoma is,
you know, as a state, is about a generation old at this point.
And so kind of a symbolize,symbolizing the
merging of the two territoriesand the government that that's emerged

(51:01):
as a result of that and the culturesthat are emerging as a part of that.
And so you take those three elementstogether.
And from Thoburns perspective,I think, and from Flukes perspective,
you're starting to get a senseof what the
the essence of Oklahomais as they saw it.
(Thompson) I think that
one of the things that's importantand certainly was in

(51:23):
the top of Thoburns mindwhen we were doing this is
you know, Oklahoma had been a statethat had been sort of shoved together.
You know, many states come together
almost gradually and naturallybased on some natural borders.
Where's the river?
Where's the mountains?Those kinds of things.
Oklahoma was always designedto be Indian Territory

(51:46):
until the Civil Warand the Reconstruction treaties.
And then it becomes this repositoryfor the Plains Indians tribes.
And then there's this hole in the middlewe called the Unassigned Lands.
And those were being held out for future Indian tribes to be,
to be relocated there and ultimately,that wasn't the case,

(52:08):
because in the 1870s and '80s,we had the Boomer Movement,
where white settlers are trying to come in, and like happened
in many, many occasions acrossthe United States throughout history.
After a bit of time, it was overwhelming,and the federal government finally said,
okay, we're going to open this upfor settlement.
And now we have Oklahoma Territoryand we have Indian Territory.

(52:28):
And Oklahoma Territory,
we talked about this with Dick Morgan, on our podcast about him.
He wanted Oklahoma Territoryto come in by itself.
The Sequoyah Convention in 1905,
many in the Indian nations wanted thateastern and south central part of Oklahoma
to come in as the State of Sequoyah,as an Indian state.

(52:51):
And, of course,that was never destined to be,
there were never,
the federal government at that time
was not going to let a state come inwith four Democratic senators.
So forget about that.
So the Enabling Act of 1906 said,
let's shove
these two territories together, wherethe people have very little in common
and very little similar waysof doing things, but
let's shove them togetherand make a new territory.

(53:14):
And so how do you represent thaton a flag?
You know, I feel like it's a very dauntingtask to say,
how are we going to represent this statethat has so many different backgrounds?
Bob, you talk about Scots-Irishand German and Lebanese
and Native American and peoplethat were born here, people who had never,

(53:35):
who had only been here for a little while,and all of that heritage and all that.
How do you how do you make a flagthat's going to represent that?
And I think that Louise Fluke
probably came up with about the best ideathat you possibly could.
And what I love about our flag is,
and I think this is somethingthat Thoburn suggested as well,
when you crossed the shieldwith the calumet, which is the peace

(53:59):
pipe, it's the symbol of peaceof our Native American brethren.
When you cross it
with the olive branch, which is the symbolof peace of the white man.
Now it says, we're in this together.
You know,whatever happened in the past is past.
Now we're in this together.
Now we are living as one society.
I think it's a brilliant design.

(54:20):
Whereas when you may look at it at first,you don't, you might not see that
because you don't knowwhat's behind the symbology there.
(Blackburn) Yeah.
And I think it's appropriatethat the Osage were chosen.
The Osage dominated
the geographical area we now call Oklahomafrom really the 1720s.

(54:41):
They started coming downout of their Ozark Plateau.
And with French weaponry, andOsage are still big people.
If you go to In-Lon-Schka,
you'll see six-foot-fouris kind of a common height among Osage.
So they were great warriors.
They could run farther in a daythat than a lot of soldiers

(55:03):
could ride a horse in a day.
And so they dominated this state, reallyfor almost a hundred years,
and not really until the Cherokeeswould come to be assigned lands
in northwestern Arkansas,northeastern Oklahoma, with the Osage
and devastated by the diseasemore than anything, rather than defeated.
But the Osage always had a spirit.

(55:24):
And if you read John Joseph Mathews
and I always recommendhis book just called The Osage,
if anyone's going to read any one bookabout Indian culture in Oklahoma,
I refer them to John Joseph Mathews book.
He captured the spirit of the Osage Nation
and their sense of communityand working together.
It was the appropriate nationat the time.

(55:47):
It was outside of the FiveCivilized Tribes that dominates
Ii you look today at gaming and politics,the Five Tribes are still dominant.
The other little tribessometimes get forgotten.
Well, the Osage was one of the little tribes.
Theyre just a few hundred peopleby the time you get to statehood.
But yet that that symbol of survival

(56:07):
and defense and what they had gonethrough in their lives
and were going through in the 1920s,as you mentioned earlier,
I just think it wasa brilliant stroke of genius.
(Thompson) Matt, can you talkabout some of the symbology on the shield,
which we believe the shield was designed and owned by Black Dog II.

(56:28):
But, it has some very interesting symbology.
(Pearce) Yeah. And so especially thethere's the crosses on, on the shield
that, you know, as, as Louise Flukementions those represent stars and
and from that, you know,some folks have extrapolated from
that while the stars mean, you know,striving towards a particular endeavor.

(56:52):
And of course, the shield itself, it's set against that,
that backdrop of of sky blue,which represents Oklahoma skies
and the shield itself mentioned,
you know, is meant to implythat defensive warfare,
so that, you know,for the perspective of Oklahoma,
it's as a state that's always readyto defend itself and its people,

(57:15):
but it's never going to,you know, be on the offensive.
It's only going to, you know, it's only going to strike,
that is only going to be
that defensive postureand will stand ready to defend itself.
And then the calumet and the olivebranch to imply the, you know, the
peace between Native peoples and whites,you know, to your point mentions that,
you know that, you know, these arewe are all in this together.

(57:38):
I think there's also justbut I think there's also with that,
this subtle acknowledgment ofof Native peoples and whites having been,
you know, they were Oklahoma Territory and Indian Territory
and that and there is this coming togetherand, you know,
this acknowledgment ofof striving to make that system work.

(57:59):
(Thompson) One of the
interesting things you seewhen you look at the flag, of course,
the crosses represent stars,but you would have to know a lot
to make that assumption.
It's interesting when you look at the flagbecause you have these
the stars on there,which look like crosses.
And the Ku Klux Klan was afraidthat those were Catholic symbols,

(58:21):
and the Catholics were afraidthat those crosses were KKK symbols.
And so there was a little bit of mistrustabout what that actually
represented there in the flag.
The state flag was adopted by the passageof Senate Joint Resolution Number 52.
The Senate approved it on Marchthe 12th of 1925.

(58:42):
The House approved it on March 20, 1925,
and on April 2, the governorsigned it, Governor Martin Trapp.
And that very day,it flew over the State Capitol.
And to get into,what it says about the flag
in Senate Joint Resolution 52,it says a sky blue field
with a circular rawhideshield of an American Indian warrior

(59:05):
decorated with six painted crosses on the face thereof.
The lower half of the shieldto be fringed with seven pendant
eagle feathers and superimposedupon the face of the shield
a calumet or peace pipe crossed at right angles by an
olive branch, as illustrated by the designaccompanying this resolution.
And that was our state flag.

(59:27):
And as Matt mentioned, we have that,blue field, which of course represents
the Oklahoma sky, but also representsthe values of loyalty and devotion.
And now, in 1937,
there was an attempt by, one of the people who was on the selection
committee
for the flag was Charles Barrett,who was the adjutant general

(59:49):
of the National Guard.
And there was an attemptbecause the flag in those days
didn't have the word Oklahoma on it.
So when he is with the flagin various places,
including Washington, DC,he said, people are confused.
They don't know this is the Oklahoma flag.
I want Oklahoma on it somewhere.
And he proposed getting rid of the shield with the calumet

(01:00:12):
and the olive branchand replacing it with the state seal.
And the Daughters of the AmericanRevolution said, no, thank you, please.
And, Mrs. Fred Neff, who was state regent of the DARat that time, said
there are 1,500 of us in the stateand we'll all come out here to the Capitol
if it's necessary to defeat this change,which was proposed by

(01:00:34):
Senator Joe Whittaker out of Eufaulaand didn't really get anywhere.
But in 1941,we add in white lettering underneath
the shield, the word Oklahoma,so as to, I guess, remove any confusion.
(Pearce) That would have been a compromise, I guess.
(Blackburn) You know, Trait, too and in your job, and you may have already sensed this somewhat
but, always heed the factthat we had an executive director

(01:00:58):
in the early 1980s
who got crossways with all the hereditarygroups, mainly women.
You know, there were male supporters,of course, but,
when he got crosswayswith a hereditary groups,
he might as well have said, hey,I'm out of here in 60 days
because he was not on his own,at his own choice.

(01:01:18):
And, so I witnessed that as a young editorat The Chronicles of Oklahoma.
And I thought, I'm not going to makethat mistake again.
And so I started,of course, I was interested anyway.
My mother was a United Daughtersof the Confederacy and my sister's in the DAR.
And so I had known my own family membersso I knew my own family history.

(01:01:39):
I'd still go back four generations,but so it was a natural alliance.
But they are powerful now.
And they were powerful then.
So I couldnt believe that they got their way.
(Thompson) Well, the story doesn't quite end there,
because on April 2, 1982, Governor George Nigh presented
Louise Fluke with the Pioneer Woman Award for her efforts in creating the state flag.

(01:02:02):
And then in 1982, also
a woman named Delphia Warren of Muskogee,
wrote the Oklahoma flag pledge,
which says, "I salute the flag of the stateof Oklahoma, its symbol of peace
unite all people."
And so that is our Oklahoma flag pledge.

(01:02:23):
The state legislature still says thatwhen they do the pledge
every Monday.That was adopted through
HCR 1034 on May 19, 1982.
And interestingly enough,there are still several
versions of Louise Flukeshand-painted flags that are around.
We have a couple of them herein our archives at the OHS.

(01:02:46):
If you go to the Pioneer Woman Museumin Ponca City, which Ponca City is where
Louise Fluke lived later in her lifeand was a member of the DAR chapter there.
But there's a beautiful,and it's currently on display,
there's a beautiful rendition
of one of her hand-painted flagsthat was given to the Ponca City
Pioneer Woman Museum, which is an OHS site, in 1959.

(01:03:09):
And, I certainly encourageall of you to go and see that.
And as Bob mentioned,we do have that
Osage shield still in our archives here at the Historical Society.
It is very fragile.
So we bring it outonly on a few occasions.
And we did bring it outfor the ceremony on April 2.
And, like I said, we were so, gratefulto have Chief Standing Bear

(01:03:33):
be a part of that, and his remarksabout this occasion were so poignant.
And he did thank the OHS
for continuing to preservethat important piece of Osage history.
(Blackburn) We loaned that shield to the
new, newly opened Osage Museumabout ten years ago.
It was a short-term loan, but they wanted it on.
And so we made that work.

(01:03:54):
And I think Geoffrey has appreciatedthat ever since.
Well, that is the story of our Oklahomastate flag.
Any parting words, Matt?
(Pearce) I think if there's anythingand I mentioned this in the,
in the documentary, but I think one of thewe were talking about how the flag,
why the flag resonated the way that it didin 1925 and thereafter.

(01:04:17):
I think it speaks to the importance ofof having a historian there.
And Joseph Thoburn and someone who wasinterested in doing the work of research.
I mean, you,
if you listen to these folks oral history,you'll hear how, you know,
she hopped on the streetcar,
she went to the library downtown,didn't find she was looking for,
comes out to the State Capitol,to the Historical Society,
and does research and to find symbolsthat would define Oklahoma.

(01:04:44):
And as a former educator, you know,that's always something that I find
striking about that story.
Here's someone who is interestedin this place and goes out to and seeks
expertise and artifactsto, to help her in,
in her particular project, and we
we still live with the legacy of that now100 years later.

(01:05:04):
(Thompson) And Bob, it's very gratifyingto know how much of a role the OHS played
in making sure that she had all of thatfacts and all of those research.
And Dr. Thoburn was able to helpguide her on that journey to point her
in her directionwith our historical archives
and with that research,and then be able to say,

(01:05:24):
to get a flag out of that at the endand to play a part in that.
It's very gratifying.(Blackburn) It is, and that kind of shows how
important the Historical Societyhas been since 1893,
when those newspapermengathered in Kingfisher and said,
we need a placeto save all these newspapers
that are the history of our communities,one day at a time.

(01:05:45):
And then if you look at the firstbuilding built in the Capitol complex
outside of the Capitol was forthe Oklahoma Historical Society in 1930.
And, of course,the fun that, I'm writing the history
right now of the History Center,it'll be 20 years old this fall,
but I started off with the factthat it's amazing that a small state,
a low-tax state, and a difficult timein our economic development says, yeah,

(01:06:11):
we'll build a $62 million facilitythat's bigger than the one in Minnesota.
At the time, our operating budget was $4 million andtheirs is $24 million, but we do it.
Well, why we had that support all the years.
I think it's that pridethat we see in the flag.
It's the fact that those storiesthat Matt talks about are embedded here
in what we collect, preserve, and share.

(01:06:32):
And I think we're part of that,that pride that people have now to say,
yeah, I'm not from Kentucky,I'm from Oklahoma.
And George Nigh probably personifies thatspirit better than anybody I've ever met.
And, it's just somethingthat it makes me proud to be an Oklahoman.
(Thompson) Well, Bob, it's a great episode, as always.

(01:06:54):
Always enjoy talking to you.
Matt, thank you for being here with us today.
And, I know this won't be the last timewhere you talk to you.
(Pearce) My pleasure.
I'll be happy to share whatever
next story, whatever the next rabbit holeis, I decide to go down.
(Blackburn) All right. Thank you. Matt.
(Pearce) That's my job, I think.
(Thompson) Well, friends, you all have a great day, and we'll talk to you soon.

(01:07:14):
You've been listening to A Very OK Podcast
hosted by Trait Thompson andDr. Bob Blackburn.
The podcast is produced by the OklahomaHistorical Society.
Visit us at okhistory.org and find us
on social media by searching for @okhistory.
I encourage you to purchase a membershipto us to help us continue our mission

(01:07:36):
to collect, preserve, and shareOklahoma's unique and fascinating history.
(upbeat music playing)