May 14, 2025 • 25 mins
In this powerful episode, Jessica Samuels and Mike Gawliuk sit down with Maggie Sinclair from Beam Credit Union to unpack the current reality of debt in Canada—and the deep mental health impacts that often come with it. With household debt hitting record highs and many Canadians living just $200 away from insolvency, the conversation covers the emotional toll of financial strain, stigma, and the hard choices people are forced to make.
Maggie sheds light on how seemingly small financial decisions—like “buy now, pay later” services—can spiral into overwhelming debt. Mike brings a mental health lens to the issue, connecting debt to anxiety, depression, social isolation, and the broader issue of poverty. Together, the trio discusses practical strategies to help manage debt and protect mental well-being, from budgeting and debt consolidation to knowing when to seek professional help.
Key Topics Covered:
- The current state of household debt in Canada
- The hidden nature of modern debt (subscriptions, BNPL services)
- Emotional and psychological effects of debt
- The stigma and shame often attached to financial hardship
- How debt can exacerbate existing mental health issues
- Social isolation and poverty as compounding factors
- Practical advice: budgeting, talking to your financial institution, debt management options
- The pros and cons of consolidation loans and bankruptcy
- Importance of financial literacy and seeking trustworthy support
** Resources
Rising Debt for Canadians
https://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/527552/Debt-doubts-are-mounting-across-Canada-and-the-Okanagan-is-no-different#527552
https://globalnews.ca/news/10946620/credit-card-debt-transunion-report/
https://financialpost.com/news/canada-household-debt-hits-new-record
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-631-x/11-631-x2024002-eng.htm
Debt & MH
https://www.ivey.uwo.ca/impact/read/2024/08/breaking-the-silence-on-canada-s-hidden-debt-crisis/
https://www.bankofcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/san2024-5.pdf
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Samuels (00:00):
Hello, I'm Jessica Samuels, and welcome to
A Way Forward presented by BeamCredit Union. I'd like to
acknowledge this podcast takesplace on the ancestral
traditional and unceded lands ofthe Okanagan Silicz people. Co
host Mike Golick, who's the CEOfor CMHA Kelowna, and I have a
guest today. Her name is MaggieSinclair, and she's the chief
(00:21):
growth officer with Beam CreditUnion. We're going to dig into
the debt status of Canadians,what's causing it, and the toll
it's taking on our mentalhealth.
Maggie, thanks for joining ustoday. We're going to talk about
how Canadians are doing when itcomes to debt, and it's not very
(00:42):
well. Some quick stats off thetop. A record breaking
2,500,000,000,000.0 in Canadianhousehold debt. It's a record
high according to the mostrecent stats that I saw.
And also that many Canadians are$200 away from being able to pay
their bills. And they don't havepositive feelings or a kind of
(01:06):
idea that that is going tochange in the coming months.
Talk about stress, which we willtalk about. What is driving this
debt in Canada?
Maggie Sinclair (01:19):
Yeah, it's a great question. And when you
think about, you know, how easycredit is today, like the credit
culture, it's just that mucheasier when you think of even
what you don't even realize isdebt, but pay, buy now, pay
later. When you do that and youthink of how quickly and easy
you're not thinking that debt,then all of a sudden now you've
(01:40):
got not one or two payments amonth. Now you've got four,
five, six. And so it's adding upand people aren't even realizing
it until all of a sudden they'restarting to feel it.
And to your stats, one stat.Most Canadians today, a $1.8 in
debt. Almost all Canadians havesome form of debt, whether it's
(02:00):
credit card, mortgages, a carloan, a student loan. And right
now, 1.8 towards debt, andthey're against a dollar of
earnings. So they're already inthe hole before they get
started.
So it's $1.8
Jessica Samuels (02:15):
per dollar. So they're earning a dollar, but
they owe $1.8
Maggie Sinclair (02:18):
They owe $1.8 So imagine that compounding all
the time. And then you add thatbuy now, pay later, and you add
that extra of the number oftransactions that they've got
going through their accounts.And just to keep up to it is
hard.
Jessica Samuels (02:33):
Speaking of transactions going through the
account, I've seen some ads forhow many of those subscriptions
do you think you have that justautomatically come out of your
account? And it was actuallysomething I saw on media and the
person was like five orsomething. And they checked
their account and it was like16. I checked my account and I
made some edits. Let's put thata few.
But yeah. And sometimes maybetoo, it's some of those hidden
(02:55):
pieces that we don't realize.How come my credit card
statement is so high each monthdigging into that. But there's
some other factors as wellthat's contributing to the rise
of household debt in Canada.What are some of those more
significant factors thatCanadians are experiencing?
Maggie Sinclair (03:09):
Yeah, when you look at rising house costs, when
you look at interest rates, youknow, the fluctuation in
interest rates, in the cost ofliving, I mean, of living
skyrocketing, you've gotgroceries going up, gas is going
up, rent, mortgages, they're allrising. And actually, salaries
aren't staying at the same paceas the increases. And so people
(03:32):
are using credit to close thatgap. They're not realizing how
much more. I remember when Ifirst started in the industry
and spending time as an advisor,we used to encourage people to
have three months of emergencysavings.
Lots of times we would use acredit line to do that. But that
was like $3,000 or $4,000 3months now, it's just gotten so
(03:57):
big that people are you know,that credit is that's hard, it
puts a lot of strain on people.
Jessica Samuels (04:03):
You know, it's it's such truth that you're
speaking. And as you and Iprepared for this segment, you
made a point. And it was sointeresting. It really, you
know, when that penny drops,where you're just like, it's not
only about the money. And I'mlike, it's not what else is
Maggie Sinclair (04:22):
it about? You know, it's it's what the money
make how the money makes youfeel. And the stress that comes
along with balancing children'sexpenses. Look even the cost of
hockey and soccer and baseballand everything. So managing all
of that and the stress of beingable to keep up and to continue
(04:45):
to provide and do whatever youwant to do, it's the number one
cause of sleepless nights.
Anxiety can lead to depression.It adds into a lot of times it
talks about divorce, and it'sbecause money is still a taboo
topic. Why? I don't know, but itstill is. People don't want to
talk about it, they're eitherembarrassed or they're concerned
(05:09):
or they think that regardless ofthe type of education they have,
you name it, they should knowbetter.
And reality is, it's not that.It's that everything's changing
around them And the ability tokeep up is is tough. Yeah. So it
happens to everyone
Jessica Samuels (05:27):
to coin a phrase, know, keep him up with
the Joneses or the whomever,right? And you mentioned the
pressure. Of course, we'retalking about the mental health
aspect, and you touched uponsomething there as well, the
stigma. The stigma about debt,somehow, means that, I don't
know, you're a bad person, oryou're not able to keep up with
(05:48):
Jones's. You know, Mike, recentstudies, I mean, not that they
need to be recent, think we canestablish pretty well here to
know that the mental healthimpacts of debt and financial
instability is perpetuating amounting mental health crisis
issue that is facing For
Mike Gawliuk (06:09):
sure. And when I hear you talk about it, I can
feel the weight on my shoulders.And ultimately, would say, yeah,
can feel inescapable, right?Something that you can't get out
from under. When you talk aboutkeeping up with the Joneses, it
was interesting because when Idid a little bit of the
research, there was a term theanticipated stigma of debt and
(06:33):
how some people fear that beingexposed, that they have debt,
actually spend more to concealit.
And that perpetuates a cycle offinancial instability and is a
significant trigger for a mentalhealth crisis. So absolutely,
that's one of the factors. Thestress that comes with debt is
(06:57):
certainly experienced throughstress and potential mental
health concerns, but that alsoshows up physically when we look
at diseases like heart disease,emotional exhaustion, and in
some cases, even increasedmortality. So the data shows
(07:19):
that having debt and carryingdebt to this load has
significant effect.
Jessica Samuels (07:26):
And the comment that Maggie made earlier, it's
about more than the money kindof resonates with me even in
that, because it's the debt. Butthen how you're feeling about
it, keeping wake at night,stress. You don't want to tell
people, you know, I don't mind.I don't mind telling people. I
kind of make light of it, but itdid take a bit for me to work
(07:47):
this through with my friends.
You know, I had a banner yearlast year. I had a significant
birthday. I did all of thethings. This year, I am doing
nothing. But what's interestingis I've had to say it to a few
times to some people.
We've been like, let's do this.No, I'm austerity measures. I'm
cutting back, making all thejokes. No, I'm not. And it's
(08:10):
like, oh, just this, just that.
And I'm like, hard no. And sothat pressure. And I'm not going
to feel ashamed. I had awonderful year last year, and
I'm going to have a great yearthis year, just scaled down
significantly. But you can feelthat where you want to do the
things, whether it's keeping upor it's like, oh, one little
(08:31):
event here or one road trip hereor one visa purchase here.
Pretty soon it's not one and oneand one. It's all of them.
Maggie Sinclair (08:41):
Well, if I can, when you think about, you've had
a great year, but think of theaverage individual who's having
to even pull that together. WhenI saw the other day that on Skip
The Dishes, you can buy now paylater. So you can separate a
meal into four payments. And forsomeone that might be the only
(09:01):
way that a family gets to eat.But imagine now the stress of
adding that to the next paymentand the next payment.
And it just surmounts. Like itjust keeps getting bigger and
it's tough. I really feel forpeople today.
Jessica Samuels (09:14):
And thank you for just painting another
picture with this, because Ipainted a picture of having the
option to have had a wonderfulyear, which is what you're
saying. There's a significantportion of the population who
will never have that option. So,you know, wow, poor Jessica, but
they're having to make thischoice. It makes things tough
for someone who is feeling well,who is mentally well. But Mike
(09:38):
as well, if you're someone who'salready struggling with a mental
health issue, it adds to it.
Mike Gawliuk (09:46):
Yeah. Well, I mean, certainly one of the
things that you spoke to, theuse of payday loans, certainly
for people that we support andknow that are experiencing a
mental illness, that can beultimately a go to. Are
struggling to manage finances.Again, when you talk about a
(10:08):
good year, there's lots ofpeople that aren't having good
years. And so how does debtimpact people with a mental
illness?
Mental health problems can alsoworsen financial problems. They
again rely on certain things.But what we've identified in
(10:33):
previous podcasts and I think isimportant to identify too is
that you can't talk about thisissue without talking about
poverty. And we've talked beforeabout social determinants of
health. And again, those are nonhealth factors that can impact
people's health.
(10:53):
It just so happens that moneyhappens to be one of those
social determinants of healthand not having that certainly
can then impact in terms of theability to get a roof over your
head, to have to do the buy itnow, pay later for your dinner.
And ultimately what that canalso lead to is increased social
(11:20):
isolation and loneliness. Ifpeople are just like they don't
have it, they can't get it. Theability to engage socially, they
don't necessarily have what theyneed in order to do that. So
it's two sides of a coin.
You talked earlier about maybesaying no to going out.
(11:43):
Certainly what we're seeing withCanadians in general, they're
going out less trying to savemoney. And again, that's a way
of managing. But the downside orthe flip side or the shadow side
of that is social isolation. Andas we've talked about, social
isolation can lead to negativepoor health and if untreated,
(12:06):
can result in a mental illness.
And so those are things to becertainly concerned about. And
then when you look at peopleexperiencing mental illness, not
everybody with a mental illnessis on income assistance. But
(12:29):
there are a lot that are. Andagain, to the issue of poverty,
those income assistance rateslike talk about a dollar to a
dollar and 80, like you're noteven in that ballpark. It just
doesn't keep up.
And so, you know, again, theability to just survive for some
(12:50):
people is a significantchallenge. And for those with
mental illness, certainly farreaching.
Jessica Samuels (13:00):
Right. And I don't believe we've mentioned as
well, we were talking aboutrising house prices, mortgage
affordability, cost of living,job volatility as well. Right?
We have a climate here where theworkplace, the workforce, not
the workplace, the workforces,we don't know what's happening
(13:21):
and talk about debt. We havebusinesses that are facing more
debt, small businesses, whichmeans, you know, some folks are
getting, you know, laid off athigher rates.
And so this continues. And so,you know, that $1 to $1.8 again,
because the discrepancy justbegins to pull itself apart. So
(13:44):
we've established that managingdebt is hard. And, and, and, and
probably feels insurmountable,you know, to most people, they
probably don't know how toapproach it. And then if you are
also struggling with your mentalhealth, whether that's something
(14:05):
that came before or as a resultof it can definitely feel like
there's things that you can'tdo.
So, you know, here we are,Maggie, we're, we need some,
some solutions and recognizingthat, you know, there's going to
be some solutions that arebetter for other folks. But the
idea here is just kind of alittle trickle of an idea for
(14:27):
folks to kind of get the ballstarted, or something is going
to click and they're going to
Maggie Sinclair (14:30):
say, Okay, this might be right. Yeah, and it
might be really old advice in away of but making a budget. If
you start with that, I wouldeven say start with
understanding where your moneyis going and where you're
spending it, how you're spendingit, writing it down on a piece
of paper. It doesn't have to bea fancy budget to actually go,
how much money is coming in andwhere am I spending it and how
(14:53):
am I doing that? Starting thereand then looking at options for
yourself, understanding whereyou're going.
And I would say, talk to thefinancial institution that you
deal with. There are ways tohelp, but I always say talk to
them early. Don't wait untilyou've done all the relief that
you possibly can. Go in with aplan. Go in and say, Here's how
(15:14):
much I'm making.
Here are my expenses. Here'swhat I've got. I know I've got
opportunity for relief payments.I know there's a way skip
mortgage payments or loanpayments or interest only and
find those things. But then whatelse?
And so they will help you. Andthey need to sit and be a
partner with you and be with youat wherever you are in your
(15:37):
journey. They should you knowlike you know we start we got to
do this together and so I thinkthat you know understanding what
options are out there for youand knowing what they can do to
support you. But I always say goearly, like, you know, walk in,
sit down with a budget, a simplebudget and say, I've done this,
but I need help, right? Youknow, not to be afraid to ask
for help.
Yeah, that stigma piece. Yeah,yeah, yeah.
Mike Gawliuk (16:00):
Well, I think that goes perfectly hand in hand with
the reality of mental health.And as people are impacted
negatively by debt and start toexperience mental health, we've
talked about before some ofsigns and the symptoms when you
know that things are going from,you know, mental health and
approaching potentially mentalillness. And so that's reaching
(16:22):
out for assistance and doing soearly is going to give you the
best chance of being able tomanage through what again can
feel like an overwhelming andnever ending circumstance.
Jessica Samuels (16:37):
Right. And Maggie, what about those times
when it's debt management ordebt management services is the
best and most likely option? Idon't, you know, I don't want to
put you in position ofrecommending them. And that's
not what we're asking. But whatare what should folks be aware
of if this is a path that theywant to go down?
Maggie Sinclair (16:59):
Yeah. So I think, you know, every there's a
solution for everyone andthere's the right one. So, you
know, using a debt servicemanagement team is the right
one. Be aware and think aboutfirst and foremost, know your
debts, because if you understandyour debts, you can understand
what their options are thatthey're presenting to you. I
think to be cautious and aware,you know, do your research,
(17:21):
understand the reputation of thebusiness that you want to work
with, that you want supportfrom.
Ask the questions, understandand be aware of the contract,
understand the fees that mightcome along with it. Also
understand, if they say they canwipe it clean for you, walk
away. Just know that they needto help you, but they're not
(17:44):
going to solve it for you. It'sgoing be a partnership. Those
are the things.
There's good options there forthose that need it. They're
there for a reason and utilizethem and there's good people
there. But be cautious of havingto pay the upfront fees or any
of those extra costs, becausethat's not what you're there
for. You're there to get help toreduce your expenses, not
(18:06):
increase them. Right.
Can I ask you about debtconsolidation?
Jessica Samuels (18:09):
I mean, is that again, I'm sure it depends on
folks scenarios, but is that aviable option for some people
sometimes?
Maggie Sinclair (18:17):
For sure. If you can lower your rate of
interest and lower your paymentsby putting everything together,
it works well. What it also doesis it helps you get to where you
know you're going to pay yourloan like where you'll have a
fixed term, it'll be done infive years and you won't have to
worry about it. When it getschallenging or where the
(18:38):
downside of a consolidation loanis, is if you don't change the
habits. So that lifestyle, thatspending habit, if consolidate
everything together and then yougo back out and you continue to
increase your credit card again,now you've actually worsened
your position because now you'vegot the new debt and the old
debt.
(19:00):
And it is right for the rightindividual to pull it together.
And I've seen individuals comein, we've put it all in, it's
like there is that weight offyour shoulder that you were
talking about. It's like, okay,I can afford it. You want to be
sure that the payment that comesout of it is affordable. You
don't want it to be so big thatit's keeping you up at night
(19:23):
now.
So I think consolidation for theright reasons absolutely works
for people.
Jessica Samuels (19:28):
Having that financial literacy piece is kind
of is that the right that youknow, you Yeah, you talked about
like, you know, making a budget,I mean, even it can start with
there but but educating yourselfon financial literacy seems like
a good first step. And it willhelp you along the way, even if
you are facing consolidation orsome other things,
Maggie Sinclair (19:48):
you know, the literacy is about understanding
the differences and what's goingto work best for you. Because
every one of us are unique,Every situation is going to be
unique when we're needing thehelp and what the help is that
looks like it. Understandingthat so that you're not put into
a worse position becausesomeone's trying to fool you or
mislead you or misguide you sothat you feel comfortable and
(20:10):
that you're confident that youunderstand, well, wait a minute,
I only owed a thousand. Now, whydo I owe a thousand and 80? What
it is.
So helping people along the way.But when you don't, find someone
you trust, go your financialinstitution and find someone
that you trust that you can talkopenly to that will help you and
(20:31):
guide you so that that doesdevelop your literacy as well.
Jessica Samuels (20:35):
Okay. And sometimes bankruptcy might be
the most viable option.
Maggie Sinclair (20:39):
Yeah, I won't be an expert on it. But what I
will say is that, absolutely,you go, you want to talk to an
expert in bankruptcy. But attimes what you need to be aware
of is what the different typesof bankruptcy there are and the
pitfalls or the downside to itand the upside. Because there's
(21:01):
some debts that actually don'tget wiped clean. I think there's
a misconception out there thateverything goes away.
So alimony and taxes and thingslike that, some of that doesn't
actually get wiped off. And sopeople still have these debts
and they thought that they weregoing to be cleared. And then
depending on the type ofbankruptcy, you have this risk
(21:22):
of future. You might not be ableto get a certain job that you
might want. Seven to ten yearsis how long it stays on your
bureau.
And so, when we talk about jobstability, then now you've even
taken out of the market in someways at sometimes. Or, you know,
being able to get a mortgage oreven renting if you need, you
(21:43):
know, landlords will look atthat. So, you know, just be
aware of the pros and cons ofit. And when it's the right
thing to do, it helps people. Itreally does.
It takes the burden of thosedebts away. But it's what does
it do on the other side to helpthem to be sure that they're
comfortable that that's theright choice for them. Great
advice, Maggie. Thank you.
Jessica Samuels (22:03):
Mike, before we wrap up, I feel like it's a it's
important to mention a servicethat is provided across the
province, but also here throughCMHA Kelowna. It's called the
Central Okanagan Rent Bank, andhow it can tie into kind of
maybe some of the debt thatfolks are facing. So explain a
little bit about Rent Bank.
Mike Gawliuk (22:22):
Yeah, I mean, Bank is a program that provides
people with zero interest loans,grants, or a combination
thereof, depending on theirfinancial circumstances. It's
designed as an initiative toprevent them from being evicted
from their rental homes. And sothey can apply to CMHA. It's a
(22:44):
fairly rigorous process. So welook at all of the financial
picture and what's going on andthose elements and then make a
decision around providing themwith that financial support.
Realistically, it could be thatsomeone is in between jobs or
there's been an injury and itmight just be a one time
scenario. It may also be a stepalong the way to addressing some
(23:10):
of the issues that you spoke toand ultimately for people to
take a look at their financialsituation and ideally work
towards getting that unrelentingstress off of their back.
Certainly, when we talk aboutthat, that's exactly what Rent
(23:32):
Bank is for. In thisenvironment, we've talked about
it. We're seeing increaseddemand around that.
And it just speaks to again thisissue. I would certainly like to
say thank you because you'veshared with us a number of
things and we talk about a wayforward and you've shared a few
ways forward for people who arestruggling And it's of super
(23:56):
value to our listeners for sure.
Jessica Samuels (23:58):
Yeah. Thank you both for being here.
Maggie Sinclair (24:00):
Thank you.
Jessica Samuels (24:01):
Okay. Once again, we have a few resources.
Now, Maggie went through some ofthose kind of buyer beware or
things to watch out for if youare considering going to your
financial institution or debtconsolidation or debt
management. We'll have somelinks to some neutral third
parties. We're not going to makeany recommendations.
(24:21):
And then, of course, you canalways find Central Okanagan
Rent Bank on the CMHCalona.orgwebsite. And, you know, we have
lots of episodes that referencesome of the things that we
talked about today. You can findall of those on the way forward
podcast page presented by BeamCredit Union. Lots of
(24:42):
information, but please, asalways, meantime, do take good
care. Beam Credit Union supportsmental health initiatives across
British Columbia because caringfor each other builds stronger,
more connected communities.
United has won. Beam's foundingcredit unions now serve 190,000
members across BC.
Hello, I'm Jessica Samuels, and welcome to
A Way Forward presented by BeamCredit Union. I'd like to
acknowledge this podcast takesplace on the ancestral
traditional and unceded lands ofthe Okanagan Silicz people. Co
host Mike Golick, who's the CEOfor CMHA Kelowna, and I have a
guest today. Her name is MaggieSinclair, and she's the chief
(00:21):
growth officer with Beam CreditUnion. We're going to dig into
the debt status of Canadians,what's causing it, and the toll
it's taking on our mentalhealth.
Maggie, thanks for joining ustoday. We're going to talk about
how Canadians are doing when itcomes to debt, and it's not very
(00:42):
well. Some quick stats off thetop. A record breaking
2,500,000,000,000.0 in Canadianhousehold debt. It's a record
high according to the mostrecent stats that I saw.
And also that many Canadians are$200 away from being able to pay
their bills. And they don't havepositive feelings or a kind of
(01:06):
idea that that is going tochange in the coming months.
Talk about stress, which we willtalk about. What is driving this
debt in Canada?
Maggie Sinclair (01:19):
Yeah, it's a great question. And when you
think about, you know, how easycredit is today, like the credit
culture, it's just that mucheasier when you think of even
what you don't even realize isdebt, but pay, buy now, pay
later. When you do that and youthink of how quickly and easy
you're not thinking that debt,then all of a sudden now you've
(01:40):
got not one or two payments amonth. Now you've got four,
five, six. And so it's adding upand people aren't even realizing
it until all of a sudden they'restarting to feel it.
And to your stats, one stat.Most Canadians today, a $1.8 in
debt. Almost all Canadians havesome form of debt, whether it's
(02:00):
credit card, mortgages, a carloan, a student loan. And right
now, 1.8 towards debt, andthey're against a dollar of
earnings. So they're already inthe hole before they get
started.
So it's $1.8
Jessica Samuels (02:15):
per dollar. So they're earning a dollar, but
they owe $1.8
Maggie Sinclair (02:18):
They owe $1.8 So imagine that compounding all
the time. And then you add thatbuy now, pay later, and you add
that extra of the number oftransactions that they've got
going through their accounts.And just to keep up to it is
hard.
Jessica Samuels (02:33):
Speaking of transactions going through the
account, I've seen some ads forhow many of those subscriptions
do you think you have that justautomatically come out of your
account? And it was actuallysomething I saw on media and the
person was like five orsomething. And they checked
their account and it was like16. I checked my account and I
made some edits. Let's put thata few.
But yeah. And sometimes maybetoo, it's some of those hidden
(02:55):
pieces that we don't realize.How come my credit card
statement is so high each monthdigging into that. But there's
some other factors as wellthat's contributing to the rise
of household debt in Canada.What are some of those more
significant factors thatCanadians are experiencing?
Maggie Sinclair (03:09):
Yeah, when you look at rising house costs, when
you look at interest rates, youknow, the fluctuation in
interest rates, in the cost ofliving, I mean, of living
skyrocketing, you've gotgroceries going up, gas is going
up, rent, mortgages, they're allrising. And actually, salaries
aren't staying at the same paceas the increases. And so people
(03:32):
are using credit to close thatgap. They're not realizing how
much more. I remember when Ifirst started in the industry
and spending time as an advisor,we used to encourage people to
have three months of emergencysavings.
Lots of times we would use acredit line to do that. But that
was like $3,000 or $4,000 3months now, it's just gotten so
(03:57):
big that people are you know,that credit is that's hard, it
puts a lot of strain on people.
Jessica Samuels (04:03):
You know, it's it's such truth that you're
speaking. And as you and Iprepared for this segment, you
made a point. And it was sointeresting. It really, you
know, when that penny drops,where you're just like, it's not
only about the money. And I'mlike, it's not what else is
Maggie Sinclair (04:22):
it about? You know, it's it's what the money
make how the money makes youfeel. And the stress that comes
along with balancing children'sexpenses. Look even the cost of
hockey and soccer and baseballand everything. So managing all
of that and the stress of beingable to keep up and to continue
(04:45):
to provide and do whatever youwant to do, it's the number one
cause of sleepless nights.
Anxiety can lead to depression.It adds into a lot of times it
talks about divorce, and it'sbecause money is still a taboo
topic. Why? I don't know, but itstill is. People don't want to
talk about it, they're eitherembarrassed or they're concerned
(05:09):
or they think that regardless ofthe type of education they have,
you name it, they should knowbetter.
And reality is, it's not that.It's that everything's changing
around them And the ability tokeep up is is tough. Yeah. So it
happens to everyone
Jessica Samuels (05:27):
to coin a phrase, know, keep him up with
the Joneses or the whomever,right? And you mentioned the
pressure. Of course, we'retalking about the mental health
aspect, and you touched uponsomething there as well, the
stigma. The stigma about debt,somehow, means that, I don't
know, you're a bad person, oryou're not able to keep up with
(05:48):
Jones's. You know, Mike, recentstudies, I mean, not that they
need to be recent, think we canestablish pretty well here to
know that the mental healthimpacts of debt and financial
instability is perpetuating amounting mental health crisis
issue that is facing For
Mike Gawliuk (06:09):
sure. And when I hear you talk about it, I can
feel the weight on my shoulders.And ultimately, would say, yeah,
can feel inescapable, right?Something that you can't get out
from under. When you talk aboutkeeping up with the Joneses, it
was interesting because when Idid a little bit of the
research, there was a term theanticipated stigma of debt and
(06:33):
how some people fear that beingexposed, that they have debt,
actually spend more to concealit.
And that perpetuates a cycle offinancial instability and is a
significant trigger for a mentalhealth crisis. So absolutely,
that's one of the factors. Thestress that comes with debt is
(06:57):
certainly experienced throughstress and potential mental
health concerns, but that alsoshows up physically when we look
at diseases like heart disease,emotional exhaustion, and in
some cases, even increasedmortality. So the data shows
(07:19):
that having debt and carryingdebt to this load has
significant effect.
Jessica Samuels (07:26):
And the comment that Maggie made earlier, it's
about more than the money kindof resonates with me even in
that, because it's the debt. Butthen how you're feeling about
it, keeping wake at night,stress. You don't want to tell
people, you know, I don't mind.I don't mind telling people. I
kind of make light of it, but itdid take a bit for me to work
(07:47):
this through with my friends.
You know, I had a banner yearlast year. I had a significant
birthday. I did all of thethings. This year, I am doing
nothing. But what's interestingis I've had to say it to a few
times to some people.
We've been like, let's do this.No, I'm austerity measures. I'm
cutting back, making all thejokes. No, I'm not. And it's
(08:10):
like, oh, just this, just that.
And I'm like, hard no. And sothat pressure. And I'm not going
to feel ashamed. I had awonderful year last year, and
I'm going to have a great yearthis year, just scaled down
significantly. But you can feelthat where you want to do the
things, whether it's keeping upor it's like, oh, one little
(08:31):
event here or one road trip hereor one visa purchase here.
Pretty soon it's not one and oneand one. It's all of them.
Maggie Sinclair (08:41):
Well, if I can, when you think about, you've had
a great year, but think of theaverage individual who's having
to even pull that together. WhenI saw the other day that on Skip
The Dishes, you can buy now paylater. So you can separate a
meal into four payments. And forsomeone that might be the only
(09:01):
way that a family gets to eat.But imagine now the stress of
adding that to the next paymentand the next payment.
And it just surmounts. Like itjust keeps getting bigger and
it's tough. I really feel forpeople today.
Jessica Samuels (09:14):
And thank you for just painting another
picture with this, because Ipainted a picture of having the
option to have had a wonderfulyear, which is what you're
saying. There's a significantportion of the population who
will never have that option. So,you know, wow, poor Jessica, but
they're having to make thischoice. It makes things tough
for someone who is feeling well,who is mentally well. But Mike
(09:38):
as well, if you're someone who'salready struggling with a mental
health issue, it adds to it.
Mike Gawliuk (09:46):
Yeah. Well, I mean, certainly one of the
things that you spoke to, theuse of payday loans, certainly
for people that we support andknow that are experiencing a
mental illness, that can beultimately a go to. Are
struggling to manage finances.Again, when you talk about a
(10:08):
good year, there's lots ofpeople that aren't having good
years. And so how does debtimpact people with a mental
illness?
Mental health problems can alsoworsen financial problems. They
again rely on certain things.But what we've identified in
(10:33):
previous podcasts and I think isimportant to identify too is
that you can't talk about thisissue without talking about
poverty. And we've talked beforeabout social determinants of
health. And again, those are nonhealth factors that can impact
people's health.
(10:53):
It just so happens that moneyhappens to be one of those
social determinants of healthand not having that certainly
can then impact in terms of theability to get a roof over your
head, to have to do the buy itnow, pay later for your dinner.
And ultimately what that canalso lead to is increased social
(11:20):
isolation and loneliness. Ifpeople are just like they don't
have it, they can't get it. Theability to engage socially, they
don't necessarily have what theyneed in order to do that. So
it's two sides of a coin.
You talked earlier about maybesaying no to going out.
(11:43):
Certainly what we're seeing withCanadians in general, they're
going out less trying to savemoney. And again, that's a way
of managing. But the downside orthe flip side or the shadow side
of that is social isolation. Andas we've talked about, social
isolation can lead to negativepoor health and if untreated,
(12:06):
can result in a mental illness.
And so those are things to becertainly concerned about. And
then when you look at peopleexperiencing mental illness, not
everybody with a mental illnessis on income assistance. But
(12:29):
there are a lot that are. Andagain, to the issue of poverty,
those income assistance rateslike talk about a dollar to a
dollar and 80, like you're noteven in that ballpark. It just
doesn't keep up.
And so, you know, again, theability to just survive for some
(12:50):
people is a significantchallenge. And for those with
mental illness, certainly farreaching.
Jessica Samuels (13:00):
Right. And I don't believe we've mentioned as
well, we were talking aboutrising house prices, mortgage
affordability, cost of living,job volatility as well. Right?
We have a climate here where theworkplace, the workforce, not
the workplace, the workforces,we don't know what's happening
(13:21):
and talk about debt. We havebusinesses that are facing more
debt, small businesses, whichmeans, you know, some folks are
getting, you know, laid off athigher rates.
And so this continues. And so,you know, that $1 to $1.8 again,
because the discrepancy justbegins to pull itself apart. So
(13:44):
we've established that managingdebt is hard. And, and, and, and
probably feels insurmountable,you know, to most people, they
probably don't know how toapproach it. And then if you are
also struggling with your mentalhealth, whether that's something
(14:05):
that came before or as a resultof it can definitely feel like
there's things that you can'tdo.
So, you know, here we are,Maggie, we're, we need some,
some solutions and recognizingthat, you know, there's going to
be some solutions that arebetter for other folks. But the
idea here is just kind of alittle trickle of an idea for
(14:27):
folks to kind of get the ballstarted, or something is going
to click and they're going to
Maggie Sinclair (14:30):
say, Okay, this might be right. Yeah, and it
might be really old advice in away of but making a budget. If
you start with that, I wouldeven say start with
understanding where your moneyis going and where you're
spending it, how you're spendingit, writing it down on a piece
of paper. It doesn't have to bea fancy budget to actually go,
how much money is coming in andwhere am I spending it and how
(14:53):
am I doing that? Starting thereand then looking at options for
yourself, understanding whereyou're going.
And I would say, talk to thefinancial institution that you
deal with. There are ways tohelp, but I always say talk to
them early. Don't wait untilyou've done all the relief that
you possibly can. Go in with aplan. Go in and say, Here's how
(15:14):
much I'm making.
Here are my expenses. Here'swhat I've got. I know I've got
opportunity for relief payments.I know there's a way skip
mortgage payments or loanpayments or interest only and
find those things. But then whatelse?
And so they will help you. Andthey need to sit and be a
partner with you and be with youat wherever you are in your
(15:37):
journey. They should you knowlike you know we start we got to
do this together and so I thinkthat you know understanding what
options are out there for youand knowing what they can do to
support you. But I always say goearly, like, you know, walk in,
sit down with a budget, a simplebudget and say, I've done this,
but I need help, right? Youknow, not to be afraid to ask
for help.
Yeah, that stigma piece. Yeah,yeah, yeah.
Mike Gawliuk (16:00):
Well, I think that goes perfectly hand in hand with
the reality of mental health.And as people are impacted
negatively by debt and start toexperience mental health, we've
talked about before some ofsigns and the symptoms when you
know that things are going from,you know, mental health and
approaching potentially mentalillness. And so that's reaching
(16:22):
out for assistance and doing soearly is going to give you the
best chance of being able tomanage through what again can
feel like an overwhelming andnever ending circumstance.
Jessica Samuels (16:37):
Right. And Maggie, what about those times
when it's debt management ordebt management services is the
best and most likely option? Idon't, you know, I don't want to
put you in position ofrecommending them. And that's
not what we're asking. But whatare what should folks be aware
of if this is a path that theywant to go down?
Maggie Sinclair (16:59):
Yeah. So I think, you know, every there's a
solution for everyone andthere's the right one. So, you
know, using a debt servicemanagement team is the right
one. Be aware and think aboutfirst and foremost, know your
debts, because if you understandyour debts, you can understand
what their options are thatthey're presenting to you. I
think to be cautious and aware,you know, do your research,
(17:21):
understand the reputation of thebusiness that you want to work
with, that you want supportfrom.
Ask the questions, understandand be aware of the contract,
understand the fees that mightcome along with it. Also
understand, if they say they canwipe it clean for you, walk
away. Just know that they needto help you, but they're not
(17:44):
going to solve it for you. It'sgoing be a partnership. Those
are the things.
There's good options there forthose that need it. They're
there for a reason and utilizethem and there's good people
there. But be cautious of havingto pay the upfront fees or any
of those extra costs, becausethat's not what you're there
for. You're there to get help toreduce your expenses, not
(18:06):
increase them. Right.
Can I ask you about debtconsolidation?
Jessica Samuels (18:09):
I mean, is that again, I'm sure it depends on
folks scenarios, but is that aviable option for some people
sometimes?
Maggie Sinclair (18:17):
For sure. If you can lower your rate of
interest and lower your paymentsby putting everything together,
it works well. What it also doesis it helps you get to where you
know you're going to pay yourloan like where you'll have a
fixed term, it'll be done infive years and you won't have to
worry about it. When it getschallenging or where the
(18:38):
downside of a consolidation loanis, is if you don't change the
habits. So that lifestyle, thatspending habit, if consolidate
everything together and then yougo back out and you continue to
increase your credit card again,now you've actually worsened
your position because now you'vegot the new debt and the old
debt.
(19:00):
And it is right for the rightindividual to pull it together.
And I've seen individuals comein, we've put it all in, it's
like there is that weight offyour shoulder that you were
talking about. It's like, okay,I can afford it. You want to be
sure that the payment that comesout of it is affordable. You
don't want it to be so big thatit's keeping you up at night
(19:23):
now.
So I think consolidation for theright reasons absolutely works
for people.
Jessica Samuels (19:28):
Having that financial literacy piece is kind
of is that the right that youknow, you Yeah, you talked about
like, you know, making a budget,I mean, even it can start with
there but but educating yourselfon financial literacy seems like
a good first step. And it willhelp you along the way, even if
you are facing consolidation orsome other things,
Maggie Sinclair (19:48):
you know, the literacy is about understanding
the differences and what's goingto work best for you. Because
every one of us are unique,Every situation is going to be
unique when we're needing thehelp and what the help is that
looks like it. Understandingthat so that you're not put into
a worse position becausesomeone's trying to fool you or
mislead you or misguide you sothat you feel comfortable and
(20:10):
that you're confident that youunderstand, well, wait a minute,
I only owed a thousand. Now, whydo I owe a thousand and 80? What
it is.
So helping people along the way.But when you don't, find someone
you trust, go your financialinstitution and find someone
that you trust that you can talkopenly to that will help you and
(20:31):
guide you so that that doesdevelop your literacy as well.
Jessica Samuels (20:35):
Okay. And sometimes bankruptcy might be
the most viable option.
Maggie Sinclair (20:39):
Yeah, I won't be an expert on it. But what I
will say is that, absolutely,you go, you want to talk to an
expert in bankruptcy. But attimes what you need to be aware
of is what the different typesof bankruptcy there are and the
pitfalls or the downside to itand the upside. Because there's
(21:01):
some debts that actually don'tget wiped clean. I think there's
a misconception out there thateverything goes away.
So alimony and taxes and thingslike that, some of that doesn't
actually get wiped off. And sopeople still have these debts
and they thought that they weregoing to be cleared. And then
depending on the type ofbankruptcy, you have this risk
(21:22):
of future. You might not be ableto get a certain job that you
might want. Seven to ten yearsis how long it stays on your
bureau.
And so, when we talk about jobstability, then now you've even
taken out of the market in someways at sometimes. Or, you know,
being able to get a mortgage oreven renting if you need, you
(21:43):
know, landlords will look atthat. So, you know, just be
aware of the pros and cons ofit. And when it's the right
thing to do, it helps people. Itreally does.
It takes the burden of thosedebts away. But it's what does
it do on the other side to helpthem to be sure that they're
comfortable that that's theright choice for them. Great
advice, Maggie. Thank you.
Jessica Samuels (22:03):
Mike, before we wrap up, I feel like it's a it's
important to mention a servicethat is provided across the
province, but also here throughCMHA Kelowna. It's called the
Central Okanagan Rent Bank, andhow it can tie into kind of
maybe some of the debt thatfolks are facing. So explain a
little bit about Rent Bank.
Mike Gawliuk (22:22):
Yeah, I mean, Bank is a program that provides
people with zero interest loans,grants, or a combination
thereof, depending on theirfinancial circumstances. It's
designed as an initiative toprevent them from being evicted
from their rental homes. And sothey can apply to CMHA. It's a
(22:44):
fairly rigorous process. So welook at all of the financial
picture and what's going on andthose elements and then make a
decision around providing themwith that financial support.
Realistically, it could be thatsomeone is in between jobs or
there's been an injury and itmight just be a one time
scenario. It may also be a stepalong the way to addressing some
(23:10):
of the issues that you spoke toand ultimately for people to
take a look at their financialsituation and ideally work
towards getting that unrelentingstress off of their back.
Certainly, when we talk aboutthat, that's exactly what Rent
(23:32):
Bank is for. In thisenvironment, we've talked about
it. We're seeing increaseddemand around that.
And it just speaks to again thisissue. I would certainly like to
say thank you because you'veshared with us a number of
things and we talk about a wayforward and you've shared a few
ways forward for people who arestruggling And it's of super
(23:56):
value to our listeners for sure.
Jessica Samuels (23:58):
Yeah. Thank you both for being here.
Maggie Sinclair (24:00):
Thank you.
Jessica Samuels (24:01):
Okay. Once again, we have a few resources.
Now, Maggie went through some ofthose kind of buyer beware or
things to watch out for if youare considering going to your
financial institution or debtconsolidation or debt
management. We'll have somelinks to some neutral third
parties. We're not going to makeany recommendations.
(24:21):
And then, of course, you canalways find Central Okanagan
Rent Bank on the CMHCalona.orgwebsite. And, you know, we have
lots of episodes that referencesome of the things that we
talked about today. You can findall of those on the way forward
podcast page presented by BeamCredit Union. Lots of
(24:42):
information, but please, asalways, meantime, do take good
care. Beam Credit Union supportsmental health initiatives across
British Columbia because caringfor each other builds stronger,
more connected communities.
United has won. Beam's foundingcredit unions now serve 190,000
members across BC.
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