EP. 2: “What’s the Meaning of Life?” with Rick Alan Ross, leading cult expert, author and media consultant!

On this episode, we explore life's alluring question, "What’s the Meaning of Life?,” with Rick Alan Ross – a prominent figure and expert in the study of destructive cults and controversial movements like Jonestown, NXIVM and Heaven’s Gate. A cult intervention specialist, media consultant and court expert who testifies in high-profile cult-related legal cases, Rick shares how his life’s work – educating people about destructive cults – gives him, and others, important meaning. Author of the well-researched, resourceful book, “Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out," Rick shares how he was introduced to a destructive cult at his grandmother’s nursing home, and offers stimulating facts, deep truths and personal experiences that illustrate how people who join cults aren’t the only ones seeking a greater purpose in this world. Learn more about what a cult is – and why meaning and logical thinking are critical in our modern world – in this special episode of “We’re Not Blowing Hot Air."

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Episode Transcript

Lauren Carlstrom (00:00):
Welcome to the We're Not Blowing Hot Air
podcast powered by Oxygen Plus.
This season we're zoned in onmental wellness as we explore
some of life's biggest, mostimportant questions with
fascinating guests.
Get ready for a colorful,curious exploration of this
thing called life with today'sremarkable guest.
I first wrestled with thequestion what's the meaning of

(00:22):
life?
In high school Reading Victor EFrankel's Man's Search for
Meaning.
The psychiatrist and Holocaustsurvivor voices the powerful
message that people can choosehow they think, feel and respond
to everything that happens, andthat doing so fosters a sense
of purpose, which is super handywhen things go south.

(00:45):
I find a lot of meaning goingafter what makes my toes curl.
One of those things is learningabout cults.
When recently thinking aboutpurpose, I wondered are people
drawn to cults because they'reseeking some greater purpose,
perhaps to God or others?
My quandry led me to ourincredible guest who discovered

(01:08):
his life's purpose educatingpeople about destructive cults.
Rick Allen Ross is a cult expertand founder and executive
director of the Cult EducationInstitute, an online database
and research library dedicatedto controversial groups and
movements, some of whom peoplecall cults.

(01:29):
He's also the author of theresearch-rich book Cults Inside
Out how People Get In and CanGet Out, which, I can attest,
offers a thorough history andexplanation of destructive cults
.
Rick's work has garnerednational and international
recognition and he's regarded asa prominent figure in the study

(01:51):
of destructive cults andcontroversial movements like
Jonestown, nexium, heaven's Gate, helping people evade the snare
inherent to cultic thinking.
Rick works as a lecturer,consultant in media and video
games and cult interventionspecialist with a 75% success
rate.
He's also a sought-after courtexpert, testifying in various

(02:16):
high-profile cult-related legalcases, including the DOJ and FBI
.
To enrich our understanding ofwhy we exist, let's welcome the
intriguing Rick Allen Ross as weexplore life's alluring
question what's the meaning oflife?

Rick Alan Ross (02:35):
Well, lauren, I think the meaning of life is a
very important subject when itrelates to cults, because I
think that that's what is oftenthe lure of a cult organization
is that they claim to have apatent or they claim to have the
answers to the meaning of life,and so, for many people who

(02:57):
join destructive cults, that'stheir thinking.
This will give meaning to mylife.
Sadly, it's a deceptive kind ofbait and switch scam, but
that's really the essence ofwhat I think.
All of us are looking for themeaning of life, and some of us

(03:19):
are caught up in what could bedescribed as a cult.

Lauren Carlstrom (03:25):
And I can't wait to discuss more about what
that looks like and share thatwith our listeners.
With you, I do know, rick.
You have a very poignant storyabout your own experience with a
cult, and if you'd be willingto share it today, about what
first brought you into the worldof cults, it would be amazing.

Rick Alan Ross (03:47):
Well, lauren, it was really serendipitous.
I mean, I was working in thesalvage business.
I had a cousin who owned alarge wrecking yard in Phoenix,
arizona, and I worked at theyard and was all involved in
cars and parting out cars andcrushing cars for metal.

(04:08):
But I had one grandparent andshe lived in a nursing home, a
Jewish nursing home in Phoenix,and I would visit her often and
would take her out to lunch andI went to see her and she was
really upset and I asked her why.
And she told me that she hadbeen confronted by someone in
the nursing home trying toconvert her to a religion.

(04:33):
And I couldn't understand it.
At first.
I said, grandma, how did thisperson get in the nursing home?
And she said, well, they workhere.
And I eventually found out thata group that targets Jews for
conversion to essentiallyfundamentalist Pentecostal
Christianity though they claimedto be both Jews and Christians

(04:58):
and they were targeting elderlypeople in the nursing home by
covertly inserting their membersonto the paid staff as nurses'
aides.
And when I found out about thatI was really I'll just be blunt
I was royally pissed off.
So I then got in touch with thedirector and I became really an

(05:21):
activist to try to bringawareness about what was
happening, first at the nursinghome, and then later I found out
that this was a common practiceand that this was going on in
hospitals, that minor childrenwere being approached by various
groups, and so my interestexpanded from that and I found

(05:44):
myself deeply involved inanti-cult activism and community
organizing in Phoenix.

Lauren Carlstrom (05:53):
First of all did you?
How did it end with yourgrandma?

Rick Alan Ross (05:57):
Well, my grandmother was not affected in
the sense that she converted orpersuaded in any way to convert.
She was just simply upset withthe confrontation.
You know, lauren, you have toknow that my grandmother
immigrated to the United Statesin 1906.

(06:18):
She came from Poland and shefled persecution, and she would
tell me stories of what werecalled pogroms, where people
would Jews would be beaten,their homes would be burned,
women were raped.

(06:38):
I mean, it was really horrible.
And this went on at the turn ofthe century in Eastern Europe.
And so my grandmotherimmigrated through Ellis Island
in 1906 and she came to theUnited States to escape
religious persecution, and atthe time that she was accosted

(06:58):
by this missionary, she was 82years old and I just felt that
it was wholly inappropriate forthem to be doing something like
that.

Lauren Carlstrom (07:09):
No.

Rick Alan Ross (07:10):
I had no problem with them coming through the
front door if somebody wanted tostudy the Bible with them on
request.
But to surreptitiously covertlyinsert themselves into the
nursing home with this kind ofhidden agenda of not being a
nurse's aide but proselytizing,I thought that was just horrific

(07:32):
.

Lauren Carlstrom (07:33):
It's.
I see it as unjust in threeways.
It's the elderly.
They're vulnerable.
It's the Jewish people.
That's a target that isprolifically accosted and it is
also position of power.
It's someone who actually cameas a.
They got staff roles in thenursing home and I'm glad that

(07:57):
your grandma was able to tellyou about it and that she had
someone who was her own advocatefor her.
And then eventually, rick, yougot, you made it more of your
life work.
You made it actually kind ofgave up the car business, I'm
assuming, and all the crushingand selling of car parts and now
and you got into cults in agood way, the good side of cults

(08:19):
.

Rick Alan Ross (08:20):
Yeah, I think so yeah.

Lauren Carlstrom (08:22):
We'll get into this again.
I hope we say it a lot and thatpeople really understand.
Anyone can find themselves in acult.
It's no one's too smart, noone's too good, no one's too
protected.
It really you have to insulateyourself through knowledge and
awareness, right of why thepitfalls of a cult are.

(08:42):
But the beautiful side of it isasking the questions like how
can something give me meaning?
And I think people do ask thatquestion and they want meaning
in their life.
How do you see that dovetailinginto people finding meaning,
the work that you've done incults and the people who have
been searching for meaning tocome into a cult?

Rick Alan Ross (09:03):
Well, I think all of us are looking for
meaningful things in our lives,or meaning in our lives.
For many of us it's family,others it's a partner, it's love
, or it could be work, or itcould be faith.
I mean, there are many thingsthat give meaning to life.

(09:24):
And I think that cultsunderstanding that from really a
marketing sales perspective.
I mean because what they'redoing is they're trying to sell
themselves and recruit people,and so they portray themselves
as filling that void.
So if you're craving meaningthrough family, they will try to

(09:47):
say, well, we can be yourfamily, we can be your community
.
If you're looking for love,they will bombard you with
seemingly unconditional love,which is called love bombing.
And if you're looking for work,they may tell you well, these
projects that we're working on,what we're doing is we're gonna

(10:10):
save the world, we're gonna makethe world a better place, and
that can give you meaning.
And for many groups that arereligiously based not all cults
are religiously based, but forthose that are they target
people and they say look, we areworking for God, we're working
for the Lord.

(10:31):
If you love Jesus, be with us.
But Jesus warned that manywould come in his name and they
would not know them, he wouldnot know them, and so they're
like.
What is described inChristianity is wolves in
sheep's clothing coming to preyupon people in a very predatory

(10:53):
manner.
So a cult can appear to be verymeaningful.
It can appear to be veryidealistic, very special, and
people who are going through adifficult time in their life can
see the group or people thatapproach them from a group as

(11:15):
being a way of adding meaning totheir life, finding meaning in
their life, or simply findingsomeone to provide them with
love and understanding at apoint of pain in their life.

Lauren Carlstrom (11:32):
Meaning is ultimately important and it's
exploited by cults.
Is that fair to say?

Rick Alan Ross (11:39):
I think so because I think that the
appearance of projecting meaningand fulfillment is a bait and
switch con.
I mean, cults can be verydeceptive.
They come on very loving, verykind.
They don't tell you everything.

(11:59):
They try to hook you in andthen pull you in and step by
step you become more deeplyamashed and embedded in the
group in a way that you probablydidn't anticipate.
When I talk to people aboutcults that are actually involved

(12:20):
and I do intervention work Idon't think anybody that joins a
group really understood whatthey were getting involved in
and so they were not joiningwith informed consent, they
weren't making an informeddecision becoming involved.

Lauren Carlstrom (12:37):
And that has been correct me if I'm wrong,
because you have a lot ofexperience, not just in research
and practical experience withcult intervention but also in
legal cases that informedconsent has become very
important now in prosecuting andgetting convictions and a lot
of the malignant narcissiststhat are running a lot of the

(12:58):
cults.

Rick Alan Ross (12:59):
Yeah, frequently the cult leader fits the same
profile, personality wise, sothey tend to be deeply
narcissistic people.
They have little empathy orsympathy for anyone.
Many have been described aspsychopaths, sociopaths.
So we're talking about leadersthat are not really very caring

(13:22):
or kind people and they can bevery destructive and, in some
groups, extremely destructive,and so I think that people
becoming involved really don'trealize the true nature of the
leader, who they may not evermeet, or, if they do, the leader

(13:43):
misleads them and tries totrick them into becoming more
involved.
And you're right, I do testifyin court cases.
Frequently these are custodycases in which one parent is
involved in a group that is veryauthoritarian, very controlling
, cult-like or a cult per se,and the other parent wants to

(14:08):
protect their minor child frombeing involved.
There are so many children whothey make no choice, either
informed or otherwise, to beinvolved in a cult, and they
become involved because theirparent is involved and brings
them into the group, and theparent, who should be in a role

(14:28):
of protecting their child,making sure they're safe, their
ability to make value judgmentsand critically think, has been
greatly compromised, in largepart by being involved in a cult
, and so the child really has nomeaning.
They have no protection andthey're very vulnerable.
So the courts will interveneand in situations where there is

(14:53):
a destructive cult based on thegroup's behavior, they will
make an effort to protect thechild.

Lauren Carlstrom (15:01):
Awesome.
First of all, I'd love thatyou're making the point about
the behavior, because it's notabout a belief of a cult, right,
it's the actions that a groupwould take that would be
destructive, that would make itsomething that needed to have
action taken against it.
Secondly, I'm thinking of a lotof examples of children that
have suffered because of theRiver Phoenix.

(15:24):
That family, that's an example.
Even Paris Hilton is outtalking about how troubled teen
industry has that similar thing.
So I'm seeing it like Rick.
I try to look for the trend andwhat I see is kind of a culture
and a world that has fallenasleep to being alert and
watchful.

(15:44):
And then I also see people whoare, like you're saying, already
ingrained in a cult.
They're born in it as childrenand so their capacity to make
decisions and have a healthylife is really difficult.
I mean, look at Scientology,children that are born into
Scientology.
I'd love it if you could, ifyou're able, to share some
examples about tying it backinto meaning.

Rick Alan Ross (16:08):
Well, let's look at Leah Remini.
Leah Remini was brought intoScientology as a child.
She was raised in Scientology,she believed in it.
Her parents taught her tobelieve in it, and they nurtured
her in Scientology.
Eventually, she and her familywould leave, but for years she
was involved as a televisionstar, and she gave Scientology

(16:32):
millions of dollars.
And Scientology told her andthis is their way of describing
it we're going to clear theplanet.
This is a wonderful missionthat you're on, this is a
wonderful philosophy that ElrondHubbard, the founder of
Scientology, left us his legacy,and he gave us the technology,

(16:57):
they will say, to clear theplanet of negativity, to
alleviate human suffering.
We have the perfect drug rehabprogram, we have the perfect
study tech.
We have it all.
And so Leah Remini felt thatScientology gave meaning to her
life, as I'm sure Tom Cruisestill does, and John Travolta

(17:22):
and others.
And eventually, though, she sawbehind the curtain, so to speak
, I mean, and she saw themechanics of it all, and that it
wasn't what she had been raisedto think it was.
And then she left, and sheexposed the pain and suffering
of many people in Scientology,most notably the Danny Masterson

(17:47):
rape case.
So Danny Masterson, the star ofthe 70s show, a special elite
Scientologist, a celebrityScientologist, and he raped
women that were alsoScientologists and he got away
with it because as a celebrityhe had really kind of a pass in

(18:08):
Scientology.
In my opinion I think it wasbasically that people in
Scientology the women that heraped were afraid to come
forward because of his specialstatus in Scientology.
And they have said they werediscouraged from coming forward
and they stayed silent andeventually they would leave

(18:28):
Scientology and expose DannyMasterson and he was found
guilty.
He's a convicted rapist now andhe's spending 30 years to life
in prison in California.
So his days of being both aScientologist and an actor are
pretty much over and Scientology, my understanding is they

(18:49):
dumped Danny Masterson, so theyreally tried to protect him for
a long time but when he wasconvicted afterwards it appears
that they basically severed tieswith Danny Masterson.
So that is an example of achild, lea Remini, who grew up

(19:10):
in Scientology, thought it gaveher life meaning and eventually
she kind of navigated throughthe kind of coercive persuasion
that I think is what Scientologyis really all about and she
escaped.
And then, of course, her showScientology and the Aftermath

(19:31):
helped the public to betterunderstand Scientology and it
encouraged many people that hadbeen burned by Scientology to
come forward and to talk aboutwhat had happened.
River Phoenix that is a very,very sad story.
River Phoenix was raised in agroup called the Children of God

(19:52):
, led by a pedophile by the nameof Moses David Berg, and he
taught the people that followedhim and there were many
thousands of them to sexualizetheir children.
Women were encouraged to becomeprostitutes.
They were called literallyhookers for Christ, and Moses

(20:15):
David Berg profited off of thisand lived a very comfortable
life.
He molested his own familymembers.
His granddaughter, who I met,and River Phoenix said in one
interview that he was introducedto sex at the age of four and

(20:38):
eventually, when he left thegroup, his family left, I
believe.
He was terribly traumatized bywhat happened to him and
children of God and eventuallyhe overdosed from drugs at the
age of 26.
And for those that don'tremember, river Phoenix was a
great actor.
He was nominated for an Oscarfor Best Supporting Actor and he

(21:02):
just had enormous potentialahead of him.
But his life was cut short,like many of the survivors of
children of God, by the traumathat he experienced and really
never got the proper help, in myopinion, to recover from.

Lauren Carlstrom (21:20):
Yeah, yeah, and the trauma right for all of
the people involved in cults isa result, and getting help is
not something everyone gets whenthey're in a cult.
Rick, you've mentioned beforethe concept of cult hopping,
like not really dealing with theissue.
So then they go from one cultto the next after that one burns

(21:43):
out and anything you want toshare about that in terms of how
maybe we're still looking forthat meaning in life.

Rick Alan Ross (21:50):
Yeah, I met a woman, Lauren, who had left
Jonestown and then joinedSenanon.
Mark Vicente was in a group hedescribed as a cult, the Ramtha
School of Enlightenment, led byJay-Z Knight, and he ended up in
Nexium.
And then he called me and hesaid you know, rick, keith

(22:13):
Reneary, the cult leader ofNexium, who's now in prison for
the rest of his life due to sextrafficking and torturing women
and terrible things that he did,you know.
He called me and he said youknow, keith Reneary told me you
were the most evil personpractically on the planet.
So when I realized that he wasin fact a really bad guy and I

(22:37):
wanted to leave the group, Iwanted to talk to you.
And he said and I worry thatI'm going to join another cult
because I was in this one groupcalled the cult, and then I
ended up in another group evenworse than the first one.
That is a cult.
And so how can I avoid that?
And I said, mark, you've got tounpack the experience in an

(23:02):
educational process.
The key, the first step inrecovery from a destructive cult
is to educate yourself.
What are cults, how do theyoperate, what are their tricks,
what are their techniques ofinfluence and coercive
persuasion.
How can I recognize a grouplike that?

(23:22):
So I walked him through somereading material and I
recommended various books to him, including my own, and I said,
Mark, you need to read up on howthese groups function and then
look at the ways in which youwere manipulated and see the

(23:44):
parallels in the other groups,and what you will recognize is
they all pretty much operate thesame way.
And, lauren, so that we canclearly understand what a
destructive cult is, let me giveyou what I consider to be a
concise definition, or thenucleus for the definition, of a

(24:07):
destructive cult.

Lauren Carlstrom (24:09):
Please do yes.

Rick Alan Ross (24:10):
It was first written by Robert J Lifton in a
paper published at Harvardtitled Cult Formation.
So there are three corecharacteristics that all
destructive cults share and havein common.
The first one is an absoluteauthoritarian leader who becomes
an object of worship.
That leader is the definingelement and driving force of the

(24:34):
group.
Whatever the leader says isright is right.
Whatever the leader says iswrong is wrong.
Second, that leader usescoercive, persuasion, thought
reform techniques to gain undueinfluence over his or her
followers.
And again, lifton wrote a book,thought Reform and the

(24:55):
Psychology of Totalism that haschapters defining how to
recognize thought reform.
But suffice to say that whenpeople are acting against their
own best interest andconsistently in the best
interests of the leader and thegroup, that is really a way of

(25:17):
recognizing that undue influencehas been achieved, because
people are not acting in theirown best interest but
consistently in the bestinterests of the leader.
And then, finally, the leaderuses undue influence to exploit
and do harm to his or herfollowers and maybe others
outside of the group.

(25:38):
And that varies by degree fromgroup to group.
Some groups are much worse thanothers.
They're not all planning masssuicide or arming themselves,
but typically groups willexploit the members financially,
there will be free labor thatcould escalate to physical and

(25:59):
sexual abuse and even criminalacts.
So you look for those threethings the all-powerful leader,
who is totalitarian, has noaccountability and is an object
of worship.
And then, second, the existence,the identification of coercive

(26:21):
persuasion and thought reform aspart of the group's dynamics,
that is, their indoctrinationalprocess yielding undue influence
.
And then, third, that the groupis destructive.
Otherwise they might be calleda benign cult.
They do no harm, they have anabsolute leader, they have a

(26:42):
mindset, but they're harmless.
They're not hurting peopleBecause it's not about, as you
said, what the group believes.
It's about how they behave.
And the question is are theydoing harm?
Because if they're benign andthey're doing no harm, then so
what they believe?
Unusual beliefs, they're nothurting anyone and so they would

(27:06):
not be considered a destructivecult.

Lauren Carlstrom (27:10):
Would you be willing to share go through
those three points with perhapslet's go back to your grandma
again and walk through why thatwas a cult based on those
lift-ins.

Rick Alan Ross (27:21):
Three criteria Well, that group had a leader
that had become veryauthoritarian, very controlling.
I wouldn't say that he was anobject of worship.
So I would describe the groupas an authoritarian,
personality-driven group, butperhaps not a group with a

(27:45):
leader that had become an objectof worship.
Second, there was a process ofindoctrination in the group
where people were being brokendown, where they were being
changed and where they werebeing locked in through what
could be seen as socialisolation and peer pressure, and

(28:05):
then, finally, that they werebeing exploited.
In the group that targeted mygrandmother, they were
constantly asking for money andI found out that a number of
people that had been involvedwith the ministry had bequeathed
their estates or substantialproperty to the group when they

(28:25):
died.
So the group exploited themembers.
The group may have traumatizedsome of them by their
forcefulness, by their intensityof their indoctrination, and
they basically were after money.
But a more classic examplewould be, let's say, jim Jones.

(28:50):
Jim Jones, the leader ofJonestown, the People's Temple.
He was an object of worship, hewas an absolute authority
figure and people would say thathe had what they called the
Christ force within him,actually supernatural powers,
and they worshiped him.
Second, he isolated people.

(29:13):
He deprived them of sleep.
He controlled the compound inJonestown in such a way that he
controlled the narrative.
There was nothing but what hewanted people to see, what he
wanted people to read or listento or be aware of.
He cut them off from theirfamilies, which is a key,

(29:36):
foundational aspect of thoughtreform to control the
environment, to controlcommunication.
And then finally, of course,jonestown was the most
destructive cult in regards tothe loss of human life.
In 1978, jim Jones decided thateveryone in the compound would

(29:58):
die, and over 900 people died ina single day.
That's where we get theexpression mixing the Kool-Aid
or drinking the Kool-Aid.

Lauren Carlstrom (30:09):
Even though it wasn't Kool-Aid right it was an
off-brand yeah.

Rick Alan Ross (30:13):
A brand called Flavorade.
But to this day people say, oh,you drank the Kool-Aid and it's
an allusion to Jonestown thatthey mixed cyanide and phenyl
barbatol and second all andother barbiturates in this tub
with Kool-Aid, and thenindividuals were told to fill a

(30:37):
syringe with the Kool-Aid andgive it to their children.
Over 200 children died atJonestown Jonestown for those
that don't know the story.
Jim Jones had a huge church inNorthern California, in the Bay
area of San Francisco, and aftermuch exposure, bad press about

(30:58):
his harsh treatment and abuse ofpeople in the church, he took
more than 1,000 members and theyrelocated in Guyana
English-speaking Guyana in SouthAmerica, and they carved out a
compound in the jungle that wasnamed Jonestown after the leader

(31:21):
, jim Jones.
Well, congressman Leo J Ryan in1978 decided I want to go to
Jonestown to address concerns ofpeople in my district who have
family members and loved ones inthat compound, and Jim Jones
agreed to let Congressman Ryancome in.

(31:42):
But then he was very concernedbecause he realized that
Congressman Ryan had been askedto by different people there
please take me with you when youleave and they were passing
notes to the congressman aboutthe conditions there.
So Jim Jones realized that hewould be exposed that the

(32:03):
horrible things he did inJonestown, that he would be held
accountable for it.
So he decided that all of thepeople, including himself, that
they would all die rather thanbe exposed and face any kind of
scrutiny by either lawenforcement in Guyana or in law

(32:24):
enforcement from the UnitedStates.
And so that was

Lauren Carlstrom (32:28):
What a coward.

Rick Alan Ross (32:29):
Yeah, it was the larger cult suicide in modern
history.
But another thing, lauren, isthat there is a cult right now
in Kenya, in Africa, and this isthe group called the Good News
International Church, led byPaul McKenzie.
Mckenzie fashioned himselfagain as an object of worship, a

(32:52):
doomsday prophet that he spokefor God, that he knew the mind
of God and he told his peoplethat the end of the world was
coming and they needed to fastand pray.
And ultimately, more than 400bodies have been recovered in
Kenya of McKenzie's followers,including, I think, almost 100

(33:17):
children.

Lauren Carlstrom (33:18):
Was this the one that was a fire in the
church or in a building, andthey closed off the windows.

Rick Alan Ross (33:23):
That was the movement for the restoration of
God, the different commandments.
Let's say of Kebua Terri.
That was in Uganda.

Lauren Carlstrom (33:32):
OK, so this is a current one.

Rick Alan Ross (33:33):
Is it?

Lauren Carlstrom (33:33):
American or is it a Kenyan?

Rick Alan Ross (33:37):
It's a Kenyan cult led by Paul McKenzie, and
more than 400 bodies have beenrecovered In the other cult you
mentioned, in Uganda.
That was in the year 2000.
There were more than 700 bodiesrecovered.
So Jonestown almost a thousand,uganda over 700, and in Kenya

(34:02):
now over 400 dead.
So these are the most extremeexamples of destructive cults,
and what we see, though, is thesame pattern that the leader has
total power, that the leader ismaking value judgments for his
or her followers, and that, whenthe leader goes off the rails,

(34:26):
he takes his followers with him.
And that is what has happenedin these horrible cult tragedies
.

Lauren Carlstrom (34:33):
And that's the danger of why powerful cults
getting more powerful.
Look Scientology, you say ithas maybe 25,000 to 50,000
members, right.
However, the power they havenot just still within their own
group, but still are they.
I know they're less successfulbecause of the internet.

(34:55):
I think that they and LeahRanami I believe that she's
really helped loosen the power.
They get on new entrants, butaren't they still recruiting
more people?
And doesn't the immense wealththat they have and the power
that they have make Scientologya threat?

Rick Alan Ross (35:12):
Well, I think Scientology continues to be, in
my opinion, a destructive cultand they haven't really changed
that much.
I mean, elron Hubbard thefounder died in 1986.
He was succeeded by a man whoappears to be dictator for life,
David Miskevich, andScientology can be very harsh.

(35:34):
In a way, what Hubbard did washe constructed a machine, and
it's a very finely honed machinewith a number of redundancies
of control, and so you becomeinvolved in Scientology and they
have all these courses and theyhave what they call auditing,

(35:58):
which is also called spiritualcounseling, and in that process
a person that's being auditedholds metal cans that are
connected by wires to a boxcalled an e-meter.
And really what the e-meter isis a galvanic response measuring
apparatus or part of apolygraph or lie detector, and

(36:22):
it measures nervous tension andperspiration in your hands, and
the needle will move when youget nervous and that is when the
auditor knows that something isbothering you regarding certain
questions he has asked in theso-called counseling process,
and so he'll drill down intothat area.

(36:44):
And also he's taking copiousnotes which go into your file,
your pre-clear file, and thenthat becomes the property of
Scientology, even if it containshighly confidential and
personal information about yourlife and you go through various

(37:05):
levels.
Scientology has eight levels ofwhat they call operating THETAN.
So there's operating Theton,level one through eight.
I think Tom Cruise now iseither a seven, an OT seven, or
an OT eight.

Lauren Carlstrom (37:26):
What's he doing?
!

Rick Alan Ross (37:28):
He certainly is very devoted, very deeply
involved and has been inScientology for many years and I
think he's really kind of aposter boy for not just
Scientology but for the realitythat a destructive cult can

(37:48):
indoctrinate someone that isvery intelligent, very skilled,
very talented, and they cansubdue critical thinking and
pull someone in.
That is really quiteexceptional and many of us would
think, well, no, a cult couldnever get me.

(38:09):
A cult could never get someonewho's really smart, who's really
got their life together.
Cults get crazy people, losers,stupid people.
Well, look at Tom Cruise.
I mean, he's worth like what?
$600, $700 million.
He's the most successful moviestar in Hollywood.

(38:30):
He not only is a great actorwho's been nominated for an
Oscar I think at least twice butin addition to that, what a
genius he is as a producer, withthe Mission Impossible series,
with various projects he's on,but at the same time he's been
divorced three times and I thinkthat is because of Scientology.

(38:54):
His first wife, Mimi Rogers,who introduced him to
Scientology, later decided toleave.
Divorce Number One.
His wife, Nicole Kidman, justwouldn't get on board all the
way with Scientology.
Divorce Number Two and thenKatie Holmes, reportedly afraid
that her daughter, Suri, wouldbe indoctrinated into

(39:17):
Scientology.
She bailed Divorce Number Three.
So Tom Cruise, wow, what aposter boy for, in my opinion,
cult indoctrination and how goodit can be.
And that is something aboutScientology that persists to
this day is that it is a verywell-oiled machine and that if

(39:42):
you become involved and you gothrough courses and you go
through auditing, you're in themachine and then ultimately,
that machine will produceintense devotion, obedience,
submission to Scientology.
That's my opinion, and I thinkDavid Miskevich has kept the

(40:03):
machine well-oiled andwell-functioning and at the same
time, he's managed to makeScientology tax exempt.
He's gotten them religious taxexempt status and they have over
$3 billion at least in assets.
The last time I heard anestimate.

Lauren Carlstrom (40:25):
That's what makes me ill is how they get
people's.
They exploit labor money, youknow, and I think what it is is
in another, maybe tying it backto meaning.
These cult founders, like ElronHubbard and carried on it by
David Miskevich, like inScientology, they're actually
stealing meaning from people'slives or they're making the

(40:48):
meaning, they're forcing it tobe about what the cult stands
for, and I guess that the onlyway out of that is personal
empowerment.
Right, when we're disempoweredis to find our own personal
empowerment.
So, you know, and today, as Isaid earlier, I feel like we're
kind of not as aware of all thewolves and sheep clothing, right

(41:12):
, Like we were too trusting thecults of the 60s, 70s and even
80s.
How are they different, or arethey not different than how
we're seeing the budding newcults happen today, especially
in social media?

Rick Alan Ross (41:26):
Well, lauren, you know back in the 80s.
You know my work started in1982 and I've watched the
evolution of cults for fourdecades now and what recruitment
was like in the 80s, the late70s was face to face.
Cults would target collegecampuses, they would have

(41:50):
members bring friends in, and soforth.
That's completely obsolete,virtually now, I mean compared
to the way in which groupsrecruit today, because they use
social media platforms.
You've got cult leaders thathave tens of thousands of
followers on Twitter, onFacebook, they have group

(42:13):
meetings on Facebook, theyindoctrinate people through
their YouTube videos, andthere's even a group called the
TikTok cult, and then they getmoney through PayPal, through
Vemo, and so everything can bedone online.
You can have people meetingonline remotely, you can have

(42:37):
people streaming online.
Everything is online Now.
The flip side of that is you canalso Google, search for
information about a group or aleader online, and
culteducationcom, which Ilaunched in 1996, is a huge
archive with historicalinformation on controversial

(42:59):
groups and movements, some thathave been called cults.
But the flip side is that all ofthese groups are online and I
think that that has served to bea two-edged sword, that is, you
can find information to debunktheir claims and expose their
lies online, but at the sametime, people are pulled into

(43:23):
these informational bubbleswhere they're following
like-minded people.
They're creating a kind ofnetwork reaffirming the leader
and the indoctrination of thegroup online.
So that's what we see.
And then let's not forget thealgorithms that govern social

(43:44):
media.
So as you are searching forsomething, and these groups meta
tag and use the technologyonline so that you will find
them, you will find their videos, you will find their website
and so forth, and you get suckedin and the more you get search
results served up to you about aparticular topic of interest

(44:08):
that the cult may be using as alead or a lure again a bait and
switch con that pulls you intothem and then you become
consumed and embedded withinthem and then they indoctrinate
you online remotely, and I'vehad case after case after case

(44:32):
of interventions that I've donein recent years where that is
the way that people wererecruited and that is the way in
which they were sustained inthe destructive cult was totally
online.

Lauren Carlstrom (44:43):
That is terrifying.
That is more scary to mepersonally than what
Scientology's three billiondollars might be able to do.

Rick Alan Ross (44:51):
Well and Lauren, the old groups called cults are
not oblivious to all theadvantages of being online, so a
lot of these old groups likeScientology are very much online
.

Lauren Carlstrom (45:04):
Okay, now I'm scared again.

Rick Alan Ross (45:06):
No, they're very much online and they have a
presence online and they're veryadept at social media and PR
and everything.
So what we see now is thatanyone with an electronic device
, anyone with a smartphone, canbe recruited by a destructive

(45:28):
cult through that device.
And it really gets creepy whenyou start thinking about minor
children and that the fact thatparents typically they don't
know everywhere that their kidsare going online and that a
group can recruit minor childrenwithout parental notification

(45:49):
or consent.
It's sleazy, but that's what'sgoing on.
There's one group that I'vedealt with.
They call themselves JesusChristians, led by an American
who now lives in Australia, daveMcKay, and he has done this
repeatedly.
He will recruit someone who is aminor child.
He will indoctrinate them.

(46:10):
He will tell them do not tellyour parents anything about your
involvement with our group, butwhen you turn 18, you can leave
and then you will become afull-time member and this
particular group peopledisappear.
I mean parents will call me.
They have no idea where theirchild is.

(46:31):
They turned 18, they left.
Dave McKay controls all oftheir communication.
He even edits their emails.
So this is a group thatrecruits online, that has a
social media presence.
They're on YouTube, they're allover social media and their

(46:57):
point of entry can be anyonewith a smartphone, and this is
the way that recruiting is done,primarily today.

Lauren Carlstrom (47:08):
All right.
So that's why we need to beeducated, because it can, like
we said before, it can happen toanyone, and if we're not
teaching our children or eachother how to think critically,
we ain't got a chance, right?
Am I right on that?

Rick Alan Ross (47:24):
I mean, like, if you're Well, I think we all
have to ask questions, we allhave to go through a process of
questioning what we're beingtold by people and that if
they're not responsive to thosequestions and they don't answer
them directly and they'reevasive, that's a big red

(47:44):
warning flag.
And when you enter into a groupand you notice that the leader
is what the group is all about,not the issues of faith or
whatever the group claims to beabout, but you really realize
that there is this tangibleworshiping of the leader of the

(48:05):
group and that this leadertotally controls the group, has
no meaningful accountability,there is no transparency
regarding the funds that arebeing given to the group and
that when you ask toughquestions, the group reacts in a
kind of negative way.

(48:25):
Why are you asking thatquestion?
You're too critical, you'rejust looking to find something
wrong instead of having faith orinstead of giving this a chance
.

Lauren Carlstrom (48:37):
Or they do a thought terminating cliche,
right, robert Lifton, also canyou just briefly say that,
because that's all the buzzright now in the cultivars.
Can you explain what?

Rick Alan Ross (48:46):
Yeah, well, in the cultivars.
Robert J Lifton, who wrote thebook Thought Reform and the
Psychology of Totalism, talksabout the eight criteria to
identify a thought reformprogram, and one of them is
loaded language or thoughtterminating cliches.
I'll give you an example.
In Scientology, if you questiontoo much, if you ask too many

(49:11):
troubling questions about, well,what's this about and what's
going on here and I don'tbelieve that why do you believe
that?
That's not based on facts orscience and you're supposed to
be Scientology.
So what they may say to you isyou know what?
You are a suppressive person,you are an SP.

(49:34):
And once you are labeled asuppressive person, you're just
dismissed, and so that becomes athought terminating cliche.
Someone is asking too manyquestions about Scientology.
When a loved one becomesinvolved and they are told well,
your family member is an SP andyou need to just Disconnect

(49:58):
from them, which means cut themoff.
So that is an example of loadedlanguage or thought terminating
cliche.
Or In some groups that do largegroup awareness training, they
will say oh, you're uncoachable,you're uncoachable.
That would be a thoughtterminating cliche.
Rather than really answeringquestions and dealing with the

(50:21):
person, you just label themYou're uncoachable.
Or if the group is religiousand and they're there they claim
that they're based on the Bible.
They may say you know, that'snot you thinking, that's the
devil attacking your mind.
Satan is attacking you.

Lauren Carlstrom (50:41):
Couldn't, yeah , could it also be like that's
just God's will, or it is whatit is, or like what you want is
for the person to shut downtheir mind.

Rick Alan Ross (50:53):
Okay, and so if you tell them Satan is attacking
your mind, like, for example, Ionce said to a young man that I
met that was involved in aparticular Bible-based cult.
I said to him you know, you'reyour leader just bought a new
Expensive car and he lives in avery expensive house.

(51:14):
Did you know that?
And he?
He paused for a while.
I could see that he wasthinking, and then he looked at
me and said I rebuke you, satan,in the name of Jesus, I rebuke
you.
And that was his reaction to me, pointing out what's going on
with the money in the group.
And the way that he came to thatwas the group teaches Well,

(51:38):
when you doubt the leadership,if you doubt what we're doing,
that's not you thinking, that'sSatan actually attacking your
mind and what you need to do isrebuke Satan and and and Name
Jesus and you will be protectedfrom that attack.
And so when, when I heard himsay that, I looked at him and

(52:01):
said you know it's okay to doubt, because I knew the chain of
thoughts that led to him sayingthat, and it was an example of a
thought terminating cliche orloaded language to literally
shut his mind down from thinkingand different groups have
different verbiage or loadedlanguage or thought terminating

(52:23):
cliches to achieve that, and IWould, I would love if I made.

Lauren Carlstrom (52:28):
Just to point out Conway and Siegelman, is
that correct?
In your book they they call itinformation disease, but that it
Can actually there's realmental and physical health
benefits to or not when theystart over, that the brain wears
down and sharply Adjusts to notthinking and that information

(52:51):
processing capacities may bedisrupted or enter a state of
complete suspension, detachment,disorientation, hallucinations,
delusions and, in extreme cases, total withdrawal.
So not only like.
We have to remember, likeeverything that happens to us,
it's happening in our brain, inour neural network, and that

(53:12):
that's why cults are also sopowerful and focus on thought
reform, because they're justliterally it's like a program
running in your head and after awhile you're out and the cults
thinking is in.

Rick Alan Ross (53:25):
Yeah, conway and Siegelman, who are longtime
friends of mine, they they wrotethe book snapping and then and
that was in 1978, whichCoincided with Jonestown
excellent book, by the way andthat's where they identified
information Disease.
And then subsequently theywrote the book Holy Terror,

(53:48):
which was about extremefundamentalist Christian groups
within the United States, andthey identified what they called
Emotional control as well.
So Conway and Siegelman reallyadded quite a bit of research to
this, and one of the examplesthey use that I think is really
a good one is the Hari Krishnamovement.

(54:09):
These are the people that claimto be Hindu but really were
following a leader who's sincedied, and it's a very
authoritarian Kind of splintergroup from mainstream Hinduism,
and they have temples in the USand abroad and the members will
chant the same chant over andover and over again.

(54:32):
And if you, if you observe them, they they sometimes will have
their hands in a bag and they'llliterally be counting out their
chance on a bead.
But unlike someone who's prayed, praying the rosary In a
Catholic church, they might dothis same chant over a thousand

(54:53):
times a day.
And what Conway and Siegelmansay is this is a form of thought
stopping or, you know, shuttingdown critical thinking and that
people go into almost a trancelike state which is another
means by which groups canfrequently disorient people and

(55:14):
implant Suggestions in theirmind is they have a chanting
exercise or a meditationexercise that puts the person in
a trance state when they arehighly suggestible, and at that
point they come in and suggestthings within within their,

(55:35):
within the context of meditationand trance, and that can become
quite a hook.
That's another example ofthought stopping and
manipulation that I see incertain groups that focus on
meditation or guided imagery orsome form of Control in that way

(55:57):
.
And that's not to say thatmeditation itself is bad,
because people will meditate fora sense of calm and and, to you
know, relax for 15 or 20minutes a day, something like
that.
But in groups liketranscendental meditation and
and other groups, they useexcessive meditation to Shut

(56:22):
down critical thinking and thenthey suggest what the person
should believe.
It's a way, if in in my opinion, of programming the mind,
there's a book written, coercivepersuasion, by Edgar shine, who
taught at MIT and he wrote thisseminal book in the early 60s
and he studied what then wascalled Chinese, a Thought reform

(56:45):
, or by a journalist, hunter,who coined the phrase
brainwashing To describe it.
So.
So what what shine said isthere are three stages of
coercive persuasion.
The first he called unfreezing,or Breaking someone down.
The second he called changing.

(57:07):
The third he called refreezing.
And so if we follow that, in agroup that uses meditation for
thought reform purposes orcoercive persuasion purposes,
that could be seen as Breakingpeople down, taking down their
critical thinking, making iteasier to change them and

(57:32):
suggest what changes shouldoccur.
And then the Refreezing is whenthe person is in some way,
shape or form socially isolatedWithin the group, where they're
constantly reinforced throughother members of the group but
really kind of isolated from anyalternative perspectives or

(57:55):
accurate feedback From peoplethat they might spend time with
Discussing what they're learningin the group that are not in
the group and outside of thegroup.

Lauren Carlstrom (58:08):
Yeah, it's as you've mentioned it.
It's a lot like what happens inan abusive relationship.

Rick Alan Ross (58:14):
Yes, I mean, if you know someone that's in an
abusive controlling relationshipand I have a chapter about this
and in my book, they they arevery typically very deeply
narcissistic people, abusivecontrolling partners, they lack
empathy, they lack sympathy,very much like a cult leader and

(58:35):
and very and.
In the same way that a cultbreaks people down, changes them
and then isolates them andreinforces that change, an
abusive controlling partner cando the same thing.
It's been called gaslighting,what Lifton calls in the book

(58:55):
thought reform, the psychologyof totalism, mystical
manipulation or plannedspontaneity.
Which is the?
The controlling partner, theabusive partner, is
systematically chipping away atthe person's self-esteem, making
calculated comments to makethem feel that they're, that

(59:17):
they're a loser, that they're,they're not not really that
intelligent, that they're stupid, and so the abuse of
controlling partner is breakingthem down so that they can then
change them.
And so frequently an abusivecontrolling partner will say
things like well, why do youhang out with those old

(59:38):
girlfriends?
Or I don't like that guy, Ithink he's after you, or can't
we spend more time together?
Or let's move and move toanother city, and that is,
socially, they salating the, the, the person who's being abused,
so they're being cut off fromold friends and family in a new

(01:00:01):
Environment controlled by theabuse of controlling partner.
So if you know someone that'sin an abusive controlling
relationship, you can drawparallels between that
relationship which is, if youwill, a cult with one leader and
one follower and Extrapolatethat to a cult with one leader

(01:00:21):
and many followers.
But the techniques, themanipulation for control is the
same.

Lauren Carlstrom (01:00:30):
It is well so, Rick.
We have a A.
Abusive Relationships can be anexample.
We can be exposed to thiscultic danger online.
We can find it in schools, wecan find it at work.
We can find it in a jobprospect, like in MLM.

(01:00:51):
There's this is gonna be outthere, right?
It's gonna be in social clubs.
It's gonna be all around us.
So what we can do is insulateourselves, and you've mentioned
before that that's about.
It starts with education.
So I thought it'd be fun if Icould ask you common logical
fallacies and then you can givean example of any cult that

(01:01:15):
you've worked with or know aboutor even wanna warn us about in
your answer.
So first one is an ad hominin.
This may not apply to cults,but we'll try.
That's attacking the personmaking the argument rather than
addressing the argument itself.
It involves personal attacks orcharacter assassinations.

(01:01:36):
Anything on that one.

Rick Alan Ross (01:01:37):
Oh sure, I mean.
There are Bible based groupswho will say that person is an
unbeliever.
They don't accept the beliefsthat we believe, based on the
Bible.
So how can you even listen tothem?
I mean, who cares what theythink?
Who cares what they say?
They are under the dominion ofthe devil, or Scientology would

(01:02:01):
say well, that's a suppressiveperson.
Well, what about this person?
Well, they're a PTS, apotential trouble source,
because they're near an SP.
So why do you even listen tothose people?
They have nothing to offer?
Who cares about SPs, peoplethat are only out to suppress

(01:02:22):
people that are on the path ofenlightenment?

Lauren Carlstrom (01:02:26):
Awesome, okay, strawman.
Misrepresenting or distortingan opponent's argument to make
it easier to attack.

Rick Alan Ross (01:02:35):
Yeah, I mean you would say, for example, if I
sit down with someone in anintervention which has been
called deprogramming, they willsay well, this guy, he's a
deprogrammer, he's out tobrainwash you himself.
That's what he does.
He's a brainwasher and he'shere to brainwash you.

(01:02:57):
And my response to that wouldbe that's a false argument,
because I'm not here to recruityou into an organization or a
group or to follow me after thisfew days that we have for the
intervention.
So they're creating a falseargument.
That is not what brainwashingreally is.

(01:03:19):
Let's talk about what it reallyis.
It's a synthesis ofidentifiable influence,
techniques, coercive persuasionand thought reform, and they're
making a false argument todivert your attention from
studying those techniques andthen asking them do you do this?
There are parallels that I'mbeginning to see in my process

(01:03:43):
of indoctrination in this group.
And why is that?
Why is it resonating in thesecriteria of thought reform?
So this again is a diversionarytactic that groups will use.
They create a false argument sothat you'll spin your wheels on
that rather than reallyscrutinizing what they're doing.

Lauren Carlstrom (01:04:06):
Wow, yeah, I love that.
Thank you.
I also see it a lot in politics.
Just not obscuring the argumenthappens a lot.
So okay, this is an easy one,I'll say it.
But we'll just move on, becauseit's number one of your
criteria for what a cultic grouplooks like Appeal to authority,
relying on the opinion orendorsement of an authority

(01:04:28):
figure rather than presentingvalid evidence or reasoning.
So we'll just skip that one,Zizi.
Well, here we go.
Let me give you a little bitmore.

Rick Alan Ross (01:04:37):
First of all, I think people need to hear this
because it really goes to whatyou're going to hear from a
destructive, authoritarianorganization.
There used to be a guru fromIndia who had a large following.
In fact, carlos Santana, therock and roll musician, was one
of his followers for many years.

(01:04:58):
His name was Guru Shree Chinmoyand he would do photo ops with
world leaders and they had noidea who he was.
He would give money or whateverand he'd get a photo op and
he'd use those photo ops to saylook at me, I'm with this
important world figure, I'm withthis leader or, for that matter

(01:05:19):
, carlos Santana is my follower,and this imbues me with
authority, because these areauthority figures.
Another example would be aBible-based cult invoking the
Bible and saying this is theword of God and what I am
preaching is the word of God,even though it is quite
antithetical to whatChristianity may teach.

(01:05:41):
They will invoke the authorityof the Bible and insinuate,
whether they say it directly ornot, that if you disagree with
me, you aren't disagreeing withme, you're disagreeing with God.

Lauren Carlstrom (01:05:54):
And also, did you know the Dalai Lama once had
a picture with Keith Ranieri ofNexium?

Rick Alan Ross (01:06:00):
Oh yeah, I remember that.
And not only did he have apicture with Keith Ranieri, who
I dealt with for many years andmet on numerous unpleasant
occasions, but he had every bitof documentation that had been
sent to him by concerned peoplesaying please, please, do not do

(01:06:21):
photo ops with Keith Ranieri.
But reportedly one of theBromphmans gave the Dalai Lama
$2 million.

Lauren Carlstrom (01:06:30):
That'll do it.

Rick Alan Ross (01:06:31):
That'll do it.
And so he ended up doing aspeaking engagement in Albany,
new York, which is where Nexiumwas, and Ranieri was actually
lauded by the Dalai Lama, whoput a white scarf around him and
said he was a very special guy.
And when the Dalai Lama wasasked what he thought about all

(01:06:55):
the bad press that Nexium wasgetting, he gestured oh, like a
Pinocchio nose, like the presslies.
Well, now that Ranieri is inprison for the rest of his life
and has been convicted ofhorrible crimes, including
torturing women physically, youknow, I wonder what the Dalai

(01:07:16):
Lama has to say for himself.

Lauren Carlstrom (01:07:17):
Well, he also in the late I think I read this
in your book, Rick in the late1990s that the Dalai Lama called
a friend of the Japanese gasattack guy a friend, although an
imperfect one, was the quote.
Is that correct?
Is that in your book?

Rick Alan Ross (01:07:32):
Well, another $2 million was reportedly involved
.
I guess that's the magic numberGive me $2 million and I'll do
whatever.
And so the Dalai Lama did photoops with Shoko Asahara, which
he showed to people todemonstrate that an authority
figure that had won a NobelPrize, a Nobel Peace Prize a

(01:07:53):
very famous individual wasseemingly saying hey, I like
Shoko Asahara, he's okay.
Well, of course, shoko Asaharanotoriously gassed the Tokyo
subway system in 1995.
Thousands of people werehospitalized, many people died,
and Asahara would eventually beconvicted and sentenced to death

(01:08:17):
.
But the Dalai Lama would simplysay well, you know he's still
my friend, but he did somethingthat wasn't nice.
I think the bottom line withthe Dalai Lama, in my opinion,
is how much money are youwilling to donate to my
organization?
If you're willing to pony up $2million, I'll do a photo op.

(01:08:38):
Heck yeah.
So I'm not a big fan of theDalai Lama because of Shoko
Asahara and Keith Rinnari.

Lauren Carlstrom (01:08:47):
Okay, appeal to emotion, using emotional
manipulation such as fear, pityor anger to sway an audience
instead of providing rationalarguments.

Rick Alan Ross (01:08:57):
Yeah, well, that's exactly what Flo Kanwe
and Jim Siegelman identified intheir book Holy Terror is
emotional control and how itworks.
And so you appeal to theemotions.
You create in the mind of thefollower unreasonable fears
about the end of the world,about suppressive persons, about
the outside world.

(01:09:18):
You create a we-they mentalitywhere we are the elect, we're
safe in the group and everyoneout there is at best negative,
at worst evil, under Satan'scontrol.
And so you create this fear inpeople of anyone or anything

(01:09:40):
outside of the group,particularly if they're critical
of the group.
And then you appeal to theirsense of loyalty and devotion to
the group, which they believehas protected them and given
them this truth, and so that canbe of a source of manipulation.

Lauren Carlstrom (01:10:00):
Yeah, okay, great Red herring is diverting
attention from the main issue byintroducing unrelated or
irrelevant information orarguments.

Rick Alan Ross (01:10:14):
Yeah, that happens to me on in voy d'air,
which is the process of beingqualified as an expert in court.
So the opposing council willbring up anything and everything
that they think that could notonly discredit me but divert
attention from what I am thereto testify about.

(01:10:38):
And so this may be.
For example, if you were inSynanon and you ask tough
questions of people in Synanonleadership, they might say to
you you were a really bad heroinaddict, weren't you?

(01:10:59):
Once upon a time, you did heroinevery single day and you chased
that high for years, didn't you, didn't you?
And when you did that, didn'tyou steal to support your habit?
So what they're really doing iscreating an argument that has

(01:11:19):
nothing to do with what you'reconcerned about in order to
divert your attention from yourinitial inquiries, and that
would be an example of a redherring argument.
Or it could be something asbizarre as just completely
changing the subject and talkingabout some issue in world

(01:11:39):
events, a war in another part ofthe world and you're just
trying to create an argument onthat in order to pull them away
from their focus on what you'redoing.

Lauren Carlstrom (01:11:53):
Yeah, we see that a lot in politics in other
places too, don't we?
Well, I mean, there's a lotmore.
There's the ad-popularbandwagon, fallacy, appeal to
tradition, the no, true Scotsman.
The point is is we have tolearn what these are, because
we'll be susceptible to evensomething like a phishing on an

(01:12:13):
email.
Right, there's a lot of badplayers out there that we need
to be aware of and cautious of.
So I think that's for me Rick,that's what I take away is like.
As interesting as it is tolearn about cults, it's also
devastating for the peopleinvolved and a problem for our

(01:12:34):
culture that I don't think wequite know how to deal with it
because we don't think aboutthinking enough.

Rick Alan Ross (01:12:41):
So I agree.
I think it's very important tohone your critical thinking
skills and anyone that woulddissuade you.
You need to look at them in askeptical way at that point and
ask yourself why would theypossibly want to dissuade me for
thinking independently and formyself?

Lauren Carlstrom (01:13:01):
Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, it's been
meaningful for me, rick, to haveyou here today and to our
listeners, we're really honored.
I wanted to just quote the endpart of your book, your book.
You say hopefully the book willmake a difference and stimulate
more critical analysis,research and education about

(01:13:22):
destructive cults.
Others may also find thiscompelling and begin a journey
of their own.
That is the purpose of thisbook to build on the information
we have and share it in such away that others may continue the
ongoing educational process.
Educating and thus helpingpeople to be personally free of

(01:13:42):
cults can be both a personallyfulfilling experience and a
purposeful professional life.
Thoughts on that.

Rick Alan Ross (01:13:52):
Well, it's been 40 years and I feel good about
it.
I mean, I've been sued andharassed and my life has been
threatened, but on the otherhand, I have done hundreds of
interventions and I've seenpeople come out of some pretty
darn destructive situations andI've testified to make sure that

(01:14:13):
children are being protected aswell.
So I think it's been veryfulfilling and it's given my
life great meaning and I thinkfor me that has been a very
central part of my life and I'mgrateful to have done the work.

Lauren Carlstrom (01:14:33):
Yeah, well, I think I'm grateful and many
people are grateful.
I'm grateful to your grandma.
May her memory be a blessing,and thank you for all of the
color that you bring to ourworld.

Rick Alan Ross (01:14:46):
Thank you, Lauren.

Lauren Carlstrom (01:14:50):
Thanks for listening.
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(01:15:11):
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Keep breathing easy so togetherwe can color our world.