April 15, 2024 • 58 mins
Dr. Shannon Sauer-Zavala, a clinical psychologist and academic researcher, has dedicated her career to developing psychological treatments to help people recover from mental health difficulties. She has focused on proven strategies to shift the personality traits that put people at risk for anxiety, depression, substance misuse, etc. But you don’t need to be struggling with your mental health to take advantage of what the science of personality change has to offer.
What if, instead of letting a personality test tell you what you'd be good at, you identified the life you want and shaped your personality to make those dreams more likely. Dr. Sauer-Zavala and I discuss proven strategies to nudge your personality traits for success.
Where to find Dr. Shannon Sauer - Zavala:
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome back to the A Word to
the Wise podcast, a space wherewe curate conversations around
mind, body, spirit and personaldevelopment.
I'm your host, jumi Moses.
On the show today is Dr ShannonSowers-Avala.
She is a clinical psychologistand academic researcher who has
(00:20):
dedicated her career todeveloping psychological
treatments to help peoplerecover from mental health
difficulties.
She has focused on provenstrategies to shift the
personality traits that putpeople at risk for anxiety,
depression and substance misuse.
But you don't need to bestruggling with your mental
(00:41):
health in order to takeadvantage of what the science of
personality change has to offer.
What if, instead of letting apersonality test tell you what
you've been good at, you canidentify the life you want and
shape your personality to makethose dreams more likely?
(01:02):
Well, in my conversation withDr Sour Zavala, we discuss
proven strategies to nudge ourpersonality traits for success.
Is personality static or is itmore dynamic than we actually
think it is?
Let's get into the show,shannon.
(01:38):
Welcome to A Word to the Wise.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I'm great and I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Thank you for having me.
Yes, I am so excited to speakwith you right, because we're
going to be diving into themechanics of personality and
just your work in the mentalhealth field and you know what
you've kind of like come up withor what you've been a lead
developer in in terms of, youknow, short-term intervention
personality difficulties.
So I'm excited to address allof that.
But first I want to start witha fun question, and that is do
(02:14):
you have a life motto?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Maybe yeah, I don't know that I have it developed as
like a, you know like a quip ora sort of a short motto, but I
guess my, my sort of like NorthStar has always been, you know,
if someone tells me I can't dosomething, then it is like my
life's work to prove them wrong.
So I I think I operate a lot onspite motivation.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
And I respect that and I think that kind of goes
into this what we're going totalk about today in terms of,
like, being able to shape ourpersonality and kind of, you
know, change the way we normallydo things to fit a different
box.
So I think it's fair to ask aswell so do you feel like that
model has kind of shaped a lotof your work around personality
(03:08):
and the mechanics of personality?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, definitely, I think I didn't realize it at the
time.
I was doing, you know, kind ofstarting this work and as I have
started thinking about how Iwould communicate some of our
findings and some of what I'vebeen working on to just like
actual people not otheracademics who read, you know,
like the three other people thatread the academic articles that
(03:32):
I write, you know and have beenreflecting a lot on sort of my
growth as a person.
I think I think, yeah, I thinka really important thing for me
personally and professionally isthat we don't have to stay in
boxes just because we started ina particular place your
(04:04):
background right.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So you've been a clinical licensed clinical
psychologist for over 15 yearsand you're also an associate
professor of psychology at theUniversity of Kentucky.
What drew you to psychology?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think I've always been areally empathetic and sort of
sensitive person and I think,you know I sort of fell into
psychology such that I was not areally great student in high
school and certainly in earlycollege, except that I took this
(04:33):
like intro to psychology classmy freshman year.
It was at 8 am.
I don't know how I because Iwas not a good student and did
not go to class most of the time, but never missed a psychology
class I think it must'veinterest, interested me and I I
did well on the first exam andapparently the sort of a rite of
passage exam and most peopledon't do well in the TA was like
(04:56):
you should seriously consider,um, majoring in psychology.
And I was like, okay, and Ithink like that became part of
my identity and, you know,really did well in those classes
, probably because they reallyinterested me, like trying to
(05:16):
understand why people do whatthey do.
And then after I graduated fromcollege, I worked at a
residential treatment program,no-transcript, and when I went
(05:44):
to graduate school I thought,you know, I want to be a
clinician, I want to providetherapy to people.
And as I um, you know, as I kindof progressed through my
program, realized like I couldhave a bigger impact by um, by
doing research and umparticularly like the applied
(06:04):
research that I do.
So I'm a treatment developmentresearcher and really my goal is
to make mental health treatmentmore accessible.
So anyone that's ever in the USlike tried to access mental
health care knows it's likeeither very expensive or, if you
are using your insurance,there's really long wait lists
(06:24):
and so like what the heck, howcan we make?
How can we make the systembetter?
And so my goal has been todevelop treatments that are more
potent, so that they're moreefficient, so that they can be
personalized and so that they'reeasier for clinicians to use,
and I think all of those thingstogether will help people get
better faster and that will movepeople through the waitlist
(06:45):
faster.
So so I think it's been kind ofa little bit of a winding road
in terms of like I saw myself asa clinician and I certainly
have a private practice andreally love working with people,
but see research really as aplace to make a bigger impact.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah, I appreciate that, because the accessibility
of mental health care justespecially in terms of finances,
you know it can be a roadblockfor a lot of people.
So I love what you're talkingabout just being able to create
something that's more accessibleand can really help people get
to the root of some of themental health issues that they
have.
So, as you were going throughyour journey and, like you know,
(07:23):
from clinician to now doinglike applied research, when did
you realize that, okay, I needto actually zero in on
personality, because peoplethink of personality as static
oh, this is just who I am Right.
When did you realize, like,actually there's something here
that I need to zero in on alittle bit more and do a little
bit more research?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, yeah.
So when we start from thisproblem of like treatment not
being accessible, I start tothink about like, how, like, why
, and the way that our system issort of laid out right now is
(08:05):
that, like, if you go to therapyand you're going to use your
insurance, you have to get adiagnosis, and there's, you know
, a lot of them, maybe 80, ahundred different diagnoses, and
the way that our system and ourtreatment research has worked
until like pretty recently, hasbeen, you know, one protocol or
one manual, one treatment foreach disorder, and so that's a
(08:26):
lot of.
You think about it as like aclinician, right, like that's a
lot of different treatments tolearn and so, and also like
there's a lot of similaritiesacross these different disorders
, right, so we can differentiate, say, social anxiety from
generalized anxiety, which islike worrying, from panic
disorder, but they actuallyshare a lot in common.
And so I think what drew me topersonality research was, you
(08:51):
know, so kind of separate fromthe treatment literature.
There's all this research onpersonality that shows that,
that it can kind of serve as avulnerability to a range of
different mental disorders, andso you know, kind of thinking
about like could we go to theroot of the problem, right, like
(09:11):
the vulnerability factors,rather than kind of playing
whack-a-mole with the differentsymptoms or different disorders.
And I think that that's that'show I got interested in
personality.
You know, for my postdoc Iworked at Boston university with
Dave Barlow, who is a you knowkind of a you know famous person
in in in psychology and we wereworking on a treatment called
(09:35):
the unified protocol and thattreatment is a treatment for
neuroticism or negativeaffectivity.
That's one of our personalitydomains and we find that people
that experience negativeemotions more frequently, more
intensely this is just abiological difference they are
more vulnerable to developanxiety, depression, eating
disorders.
It's not set in stone, right,like, if you're a sensitive
(09:59):
person, it doesn't necessarilymean that you're going to, you
know, have an anxiety disorderdisorder.
It just means you have a tallertask of coping when stuff comes
up and sometimes it's harderfor people, um, so yeah, so
that's how I kind of came topersonality as a way kind of the
root of the problem or thevulnerabilities that could
become our treatment targets andthat would sort of reduce,
(10:22):
instead of 80 different manuals,um, down to like combinations
five, because there's like wetalk about like, what
personality is there's like fivebroad domains that kind of
cover it that we can talk aboutpotentially being prone to
(10:46):
certain, like you know, mentalhealth.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I don't want to say like issues per se, but being
prone to having some mentalhealth difficulties around
certain things, and sensitivitybeing one of the things that you
know.
People who have that, who aremore sensitive, could, you know,
have a little bit more anxiety,and I can raise my hand for
that.
I'm very sensitive, very likeempathetic, and anxiety
something that overthinking, andanxiety is something that I've
(11:10):
struggled with, gotten a lotbetter, but I struggled with
that for some time.
Okay, so what is personality?
Let's get into it right.
What is personality and whatare those you know?
Like you said, you can breakthat down into five different
buckets.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, so one of the most like robustly researched
like theories of personality ormodels of personality is called
the five factor model or the bigfive, and so basically the way
this was developed it's prettycrazy actually.
Like as early as the 1930s,like psychologists kind of like
(11:45):
poured over literally thedictionary and pulled out any
words that that kind of likedescribed human nature, and then
they, they like took thosewords and tried to reduce them
into as many or into intosmaller and smaller groups and
basically when they got to thesefive overarching domains of
(12:05):
personality, they just couldn'tlike combine them anymore.
And this like sort ofdictionary approach has been
replicated in like tons ofdifferent languages and cultures
.
So it kind of is showing thatthere is this sort of universal
thing or these universal fivefactors that keep like getting
reproduced.
And as we have gotten like moresophisticated in our like
(12:29):
statistical abilities, we cansee that replicated in like data
too.
So the five personality domainsare neuroticism, which I already
mentioned, that is, thetendency to experience negative
emotions, extroversion versusintroversion, or detachment and
extroversion.
A lot of people think about itas like your sociability, but
(12:50):
really it's kind of broader thanthat.
It's like your excitability andenergy and being sort of social
and outgoing is part of that.
Then we've gotconscientiousness, and this is
like your achievement, striving,your organization, your follow
through kind of on a continuumwith, like being more
spontaneous, being less of aplanner.
Then you have agreeableness,right, and so that is like your
(13:15):
tendency to be you kind of ateam player, to be caring, to be
empathetic, to be you know tobe, to be empathetic, to be you
know to be kind of go with theflow, versus being maybe more
assertive all the way down tomaybe being a little bit like
forceful.
And then, finally, openness,which is just your, your like
(13:39):
interest in aesthetics or youknow philosophy, right, some
people love to just kind of likedebate the meaning of life.
Those are people really high inopenness, or people that are
really imaginative, and then youknow, then there's more
closeness where people are like,yeah, imagination kind of a
waste of time, like tend to bemore conservative or traditional
.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Um, and there you have it, five domains of
personality is it possible forpeople to have a mix and match
of like a couple of thesedifferent buckets, like
agreeable and like openness, forexample?
I could see a lot of peoplehaving that, and then some
people call themselves like anoutgoing introvert.
I call myself that.
(14:17):
Where it's like in certain, youknow, in certain dynamics or in
certain situations, I'm alittle bit more extroverted, I
have a lot more energy, but I doneed my time to kind of retreat
into myself so I can kind oflike go back and forth.
So is it possible for people tokind of have a mix and match of
these different types of, youknow, personality buckets?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah, yeah.
So so everybody has all five.
Okay, that makes sense If youthink of it as like I don't know
, with a mixer board with likefive, um, you know five domains,
like we can sort of like raisethis or lower the slider,
basically depending on like.
I mean, each individual personhas their own kind of profile,
(15:01):
right.
So you know a person, a personcan be high in neuroticism,
experience a lot of negativeemotions and also be high in
extroversion, lots of positiveemotions, you know, kind of up
and down, or they could be highin neuroticism and low in
extroversion and that's more oflike, kind of like low energy,
sort of depressive.
You could be low in neuroticism,not feel a ton of negative
(15:21):
emotions, and you could be highin extroversion or you could be
right in the middle oneverything.
And so when you describe, likeyou know, extroverted, introvert
, a lot of times when we, whenwe can't put anybody into a box,
they're like right in themiddle, right, people that can
kind of.
You know, in some situations Ican be more outgoing and in
other situations I like my quiettime versus somebody that like,
(15:42):
like, would really low inextroversion, would like really
be like a home body kind ofsituation, whereas, like I know,
people that are so extrovertedthat they like I mean I think
they really you notice it duringlike COVID lockdown where
they're just like climbing thewalls because they're not
getting that stimulation, and soeverybody has, like different
(16:02):
combinations of these traits.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Oh, okay, I get it now.
So it's, it's kind of, those arethe different.
So if there's, if personality isa spectrum, right, all of those
things fall within a spectrumand some people have certain
elements dialed up, other peoplemight have it dialed down or it
might just be at differentlevels, depending on you know
where that person is in theirlife.
(16:26):
And I think that feeds into thenext question, which is I used
to think of personality asstatic, but the way you just
described it, it means thatthere are certain moments where,
again, you know, using theextrovert versus introvert
example, there's certain momentswhere I dial up extroversion
and I might be coming off like,oh, I thought Jimmy was
(16:48):
introverted, but it seems likeshe's more extroverted, and that
might happen for a period oftime.
So it might seem like I'mhaving some sort of personality
shift or I can make mypersonality more malleable, like
personality is not static,right?
So can we talk about that alittle bit more, because I feel
like that's so interesting I'venever thought about it that way
that personality can be a littlebit more dynamic and not static
(17:12):
.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that that is like how we
were all really taught to thinkabout personality and I think,
in a lot of ways, like makes usreally precious about it, like,
oh, like my, it's who I am, youknow, it's my essence.
And you know, when we thinkabout personality with this like
big five or five factor model,you'll notice that, like, what's
not in there are your tastes,your sense of humor, your values
(17:35):
, right, and I think those arethe things that make you you, um
, when we're talking about thefive factor model of personality
, we're basically talking about,like your characteristic way of
thinking, feeling and behaving,kind of in response to the
world.
And when we think aboutpersonality, we again we're like
(17:57):
oh yeah, personality, that's myessence, it's unchangeable.
But, like, we change how wethink about things, we change
our perspective all the time.
We develop new habits andchange our behavior all the time
, and you know we change how wefeel about certain things all
the time.
So when you think, when you kindof break down that definition
of personality, like, yeah, itmakes sense that we could, we
(18:17):
could change those things, right, and if you change the way that
you think about other people,like you know, if you started
out being like you know, oh, youcan't trust anybody.
But then, like, throughexperience, you know, maybe
learn that you can, right,you're going to start to fill
out those bubbles on thepersonality questionnaires
differently, right, if youmaintain those changes over time
(18:37):
, then like, but in essenceyou've changed how you're
responding and what you looklike on those personality
domains.
And when we look at researchright across the population, we
see that people, like kind of atthe group level, on average
people tend to get less neuroticover time.
They tend to get moreextroverted, more agreeable,
more open and more conscientious.
(18:59):
Some people change a ton andsome people stay pretty static,
but like my, you know, kind oflike intervention work shows
that we can take like kind of 20years of personality change and
we can see similar effects inlike 20 weeks just by people
taking these intentional actions.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Wow, the word, the keyword there is intentional,
because I feel like you have toalmost be conscious of how you
are interacting with the world,because that's a lot of what
kind of makes up our personalityas well.
To your point, and I want totalk a little bit about you,
because you say that you woulddescribe yourself when you were
like a teenager, much younger,as, quote unquote lazy, right.
(19:40):
But here you are a successful,academic, right.
I don't, when I think aboutpeople who are in academia, I
don't correlate that withlaziness at all.
Like one of my sisters, she'sin academia and she's on the
grind so much research, so muchwork that they have to do.
So can you just talk a littlebit about that?
Because I know, I thought thatwas a powerful example about
(20:02):
kind of you know, I don't wantto say mending your personality,
but kind of tapping into maybestronger elements that could
propel you forward and, you know, into the successful career.
Can you talk about that alittle bit?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
So I think, like I, when I wasmuch younger, it was pretty low
in like what we would callconscientiousness, right, our
sort of like, um, you know, ourability to be planful, our
ability to be reliable, tofollow through, Um, I like I
mean a good example like in highschool I like rarely attended
(20:36):
math class.
My junior year failed and hadto repeat it the following year.
Um, you know, and in college,like I mean, aside from like
being really narrowly focused onmy psychology classes, I mean
just, you know, oh, I don't feellike going, like really didn't
apply myself and um, I thinkthat also kind of.
So there's that piece of me.
(20:57):
But then there's also the like,I don't know, maybe it's like a
little bit of antagonism, likelow agreeableness, where I'm
just, like you said, I can't dothat, you know.
That I think sort of made mehave really big goals or see
myself kind of achieving a lot,but like I didn't have the
conscientious personality toactually do that Right.
(21:18):
And so, going back to that ideaof like intentionality, I think
that, like we, we have to kindof have goals or values that are
really important to us.
That's going to be themotivation to like take these
(21:39):
intentional actions to shift ourpersonality traits, because
it's hard and so you have tohave some buy in to do it.
And so basically for me, like Imean I started to tell you
about this a little bit alreadyI, you know, I did well in my
very first psychology class andthe TA was like you should major
in psychology and I started tosee myself as like I'm good at
(21:59):
psychology and that made me.
That was like reinforcing to me.
It felt really good andwhenever there's like a reward
for doing something, itincreases the likelihood that
you're going to do the behavioragain.
It's like kind of basic psych101.
So, um, so I was like showing upto those classes and performing
well in those classes and Istarted to see myself as like
somebody that could help otherswho might be struggling in those
(22:21):
classes.
Um and so that sort of likesnowballed this like very narrow
, conscientious behavior in thisone area.
Then, um, you know, I sort ofwas like I'm going to go to
graduate school for psychologyand shared this with one of my
professors and she was like,yeah, that's great and I think
you could do it because you'redoing so well in your psychology
(22:43):
classes and I don't thinkyou'll get in because your
overall GPA is not good enough.
And so that was like reallylike embarrassing and like I
felt so guilty that I had likewasted this opportunity.
And so experiencing negativeemotions can be a very powerful
like reinforcer too, becausewe're really motivated to reduce
(23:06):
those, and so I sort of tookthat guilt right.
The function of guilt is totell you, oh, don't do that
again, like that was bad whenyou did that before.
So, um, so I started to reallyapply myself in my other classes
and saw, oh, like theseconscientious behaviors that I
had developed for psychology,like actually I could expand,
that I could do that in otherplaces.
(23:27):
And so I started to see myselfnot just as like I'm'm good at
psychology, but more like goodat school, like I'm smart, I can
actually do this.
And so eventually, like I mean,I didn't get into graduate
school the first time I applied,applied my senior year, but,
like after my like secondsemester of senior year, had
gotten my GPA up enough to be,like you know, somewhat
(23:49):
competitive.
And when I finally did go tograduate school, it just got
like exponentially more thingsyou had to keep track of and you
know, I got my very firstplanner and, you know, I think,
like graduate school is like aplace where that characteristic
of like I need to prove myselfto people, I think like it like
(24:14):
rewards that.
And so there are these thingsthat don't really matter in the
real world but matter a lot inacademia, like publications and
grant funding, and as you getthose things, it's like you get
this respect and recognition andthat was a really powerful
motivator.
And then finally, like now, aslike a faculty member and like a
(24:35):
mentor, I have graduatestudents of my own.
I know that like they need meto respond, like give them
feedback on their drafts andanswer their emails quickly,
because they need to kind oflike build their resumes, and
they see me as this, likecompetent person, a good mentor,
(24:58):
and I want to live up to thatstandard Right.
So.
So that kind of keeps me movingin that direction, and so I
think it's funny because itstarted off as this like very
small thing where I like didwell on one exam, but that like
kind of started this upwardtrajectory of change.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, like a snowball effect, which I think it's
powerful, what you just kind oftalked about, right, because you
started to believe in yourself,right, it's like someone
planted a seed.
Hey, you're really good at this, you're really good at the
psychology thing, and you'relike, huh, I am and you like
went with it.
And I think a lot of times toyour point, like that positive
(25:38):
reinforcement is the motivatingfactor for people to continue to
like move forward in adifferent trajectory.
And the more you kind of leaninto something I think it's
called neuroplasticity, right,so your mind started to feel
like, oh, I'm capable, I'mcompetent, I can do this, I'm
smart enough, kind of likealmost training you to be more
(26:01):
of a go-getter rather than just,I guess, flowing, going with
the flow, which I don't thinkthere's anything wrong with that
, but with everything there'sbalance, right, if you go with
the flow too much, then thingsnever get done.
But if you're able to kind ofbalance that, obviously then you
know things are better.
So I really liked that you saidthat.
It also made me think aboutpeople, for example, who might
(26:22):
be trying to get a little bitmore fit.
Right, you first start off atthe gym and you're like I
literally cannot lift anyweights, but you're like you
know what, I'm going to stickwith it for a month and then in
that month you realize thatyou're getting stronger and that
just makes you want to keepgoing and going, and going.
So I think I think that'sawesome.
But I also want to ask, youknow, for example, for people
(26:42):
who have ADHD, I don't know ifthat's considered a personality
trait, but I know that that islike a mental.
I don't even know if that's amental health issue, but I do
know it's some sort of cognitiveissue that, you know, does not
allow people to focus the waythey want to focus, and people
(27:03):
have, you know, talked about how, like that kind of hinders them
from going for their goals andall of that stuff.
So how does your work kind ofdoes your work address ADHD
related, you know, cognitivesymptoms?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah, so.
So in my experience, like justlike providing therapy to people
with ADHD, a lot of timesthere's like two things that are
happening.
There's like the ADHD, which islike a cognitive piece and I
would not describe that aspersonality and then there's
like an, you know like there'slike an anxiety right, and an
(27:38):
identity piece right, and that'sthe piece that's like well, I
have ADHD, I can't like thisunderlying cognitive issue.
And then I'm like adding kindof I'm elaborating on it, and so
I think, like with some of thelike sort of personality change,
(28:00):
like sort of reducingneuroticism, like increasing
confidence, like we can take theedge off some of that, so that,
like you know, like if you'veever tried to study something
when you're really anxious aboutit, it's really hard right.
So, like you know, like ifyou've ever tried to study
something when you're reallyanxious about it, it's really
hard right.
So like, add that to likehaving an attentional issue and
it's it's really tough.
So if we could take away theanxiety piece and it's just the
attentional issue, that's goingto make it a little bit easier.
(28:22):
Um, the personality changestrategies that that, like I
think about in in my work, arenot going to address the
cognitive piece.
Um, that like I mean, andreally the like first line
treatment for ADHD is medicine.
I'm, one of my kids has ADHDand like I have seen firsthand,
like as we have, you know, wesort of like resisted putting
(28:44):
her on medicine at first.
But she was like I'm trying sohard and it's still not working.
And when she said that right,like that's not a
conscientiousness issue becauseshe's really trying so hard,
it's like, uh, you know, like aa cognitive issue.
And when we got her on medicineyou could see that
(29:06):
conscientiousness sort of likebloom yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
I I see what you're saying there.
Because ADHD is such acognitive issue, the strategies
for, like, the strategies thatyou have related to personality,
may or may not be effective.
How does personality impactmental health?
(29:31):
Like, if I came to you with anissue and let's say I was having
a moment of depression or I wasstruggling with anxiety, how
would you, how would the thenotion of personality, how would
you help me through that?
By zeroing in on personality?
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, yeah so.
So a lot of times when peoplecome into the clinic, they are
coming in with more than onemental health diagnosis, and
that's because there is morethat's similar about different
diagnoses, like anxiety anddepression.
They tend to like come together, and so so the way that I would
think about that withpersonality is that I would
(30:16):
think that the person kind ofhas like a vulnerability right,
that they might be sort of likehigher on that neuroticism
dimension and that just meansthat they're more sensitive,
right, that they experiencenegative emotions more, more
strongly.
And so what can happen you know, this is just specifically for
neuroticism, but, like, what canhappen is that when we
experience our negative emotionsreally strongly and we find
(30:38):
them uncomfortable, right, likeI mean, it's not that pleasant
to be sad all the time or to besad at all, right, or to be
anxious when we experience thoseemotions and this happens, I
think, more when people are moresensitive is that they develop
these beliefs about emotionsthat are like I shouldn't be
feeling this way, this is souncomfortable, I can't stand
(31:00):
this.
Those are like sort ofperceptions about yourself,
about the emotions, right Aboutreally.
I mean, I don't use the wordneuroticism when I'm doing
treatments Just talk about, like, how you relate to your
negative emotions and so,instead of working on like your
like depression per se or yourlike anxiety per se, we're
(31:21):
talking broadly about yourrelationship with your emotions
and what we find is that, likeon the on the you know, I'm kind
of like the downward spiralside what happens is somebody
experiences their emotionsreally strongly, they don't like
them very much, they have thesenegative beliefs about them and
then they engage in avoidanceright, avoidance for depression
(31:42):
looks like I withdraw socially,right, because, like, it really
sucks to try to be social whenyou're not really feeling it and
that makes you feel worse inthe short term, right.
So people will like sleep a lotor, you know, withdraw socially.
Avoidance and anxiety can looklike a lot of different things,
right.
So in like social anxiety, it'slike oh, like they might judge
(32:02):
me, so I'm not going to go tothis thing or I'm not going to
participate in this meeting.
In like generalized anxiety, itcould look like like over
researching thingsresearchingthings, over-planning, like
double-checking your email amillion times, right, and
basically, when you avoid, itmakes you feel better in the
short term, right, but itbackfires in the long term right
Because, like, when you leavethe party, when you're socially
(32:25):
anxious, it confirms the beliefthat, like, feeling anxious is
dangerous, that parties aredangerous.
So the next time you encountera situation like that you're
going to feel even more anxious.
And so that's this idea that,like the more we have negative
emotions like that's kind of thestarting point but like the
more we find them aversive andthe more we avoid them, it leads
(32:46):
to what we call rebound effects, where you just basically
experience negative emotionsmore frequently and more
intensely.
So that's like maintaining yourneuroticism.
The way to break the cycle isto not avoid, right?
So you have to and you knowwe're not necessarily talking
about like, oh, go to parties,although that might be part of
it it's like we have to learnthat it's okay to experience
(33:09):
emotions and kind of welcomethem.
And it's sort of this paradoxwhere the more you're like cool
with feeling, the more you'reokay with being a sensitive
person, the less interfering itis and actually the the less
frequently you experiencenegative emotions.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense.
And also, I think sometimes,when it comes to you know, this
is just who I am like.
I'm someone who typically hasanxiety.
I'm someone who can be a littleneurotic.
In certain moments, it becomesa self-fulfilling prophecy that,
even though people don't likethese negative emotions, it's
(33:46):
become a part of them and theyfeel like it's their identity or
it's part of their identity,become a part of them and they
feel like it's their identity orit's part of their identity.
And, you know, although peoplewant better for themselves, a
lot of times people are afraidof change.
Like, if I stop being anxious,who am I without anxiety, right?
So can you talk about that alittle bit?
(34:06):
You know, do you encounterpeople who are kind of
potentially resistant to, kindof, you know, making their
personality a little bit moredynamic, because they're afraid
that they're going to change andlose an essence of themselves?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, yeah.
So a lot of times we I know weuse this phrase in therapy like
the devil you know, versus thedevil you don't.
And so it's like doing these,these kind of like therapeutic
activities they're basicallycalled exposures and you like go
and put yourself in situationsthat bring up those emotions,
you can practice like toleratingthem.
Essentially that is hard, right.
(34:48):
And like, because you don'thave a lot of experience not
being anxious or neurotic, youdon't know that it's better on
the other side and like mostpeople have figured out how to
like function, how to kind ofwhite knuckle it through, and so
they, they it's like the devilthey know, right, and there's no
guarantee that it's going to bebetter on the other side.
(35:09):
So I think that that's that's.
I mean, I think that is areally important piece.
Another thing that sometimescomes up, depending on, like the
nature of someone's anxiety,right.
So this comes up a lot withlike perfectionism and anxiety,
where it's sort of this doubleedged sword because it it like
is so uncomfortable and you'reputting so much effort in, you
(35:30):
know you're staying late at work, or, like you know, when I work
with college students, it'slike the amount of effort and
angst that goes into like anonline discussion post that is
worth like one point becauseother people are going to see it
right.
Like people are really scaredto let go of some of that
(35:51):
perfectionism because it hasgotten them good outcomes in the
past and they don't knowwithout actually testing it out.
Like if you did 80% of the likegood job that you're doing
right now, first of all, no onewould notice and it would still
be high quality and still giveit an A or still get a pat on
the back or whatever.
Right and so.
But it's so scary to try that.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yes, I can relate to that.
When I had to, those discussionforums were so anxiety
provoking because you're justlike, if I was just handing it
into my professor, I wouldn'toverthink it, I'd be confident.
But when, like, tons of otherpeople are reading it,
especially your colleagues, yourclassmates, you're like, oh my
god, I hope they don't think I'mdumb.
Um, or is this good enough?
(36:35):
You know, you, and also it's acompetition thing.
You want to sound like thesmartest in the room and or on
the discussion forum.
There's so much that goes intoit.
Um, but, yes, I, I agree withthat.
And now I want to talk a littlebit about the short-term
intervention personalitydifficulties to address common
mental health problems, and youcall that COMPAS.
So can you talk about, yeah,can you talk about COMPAS and
(36:58):
like what that means and whythis is effective in short-term
intervention personality?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah.
So COMPAS is like if you reallysquint your eyes is an acronym
for cognitive behavioral modulesfor personality symptoms, like
if you really squint your eyesis an acronym for Cognitive
Behavioral Modules forPersonality Symptoms, so like
you really have to force it, butit's kind of there.
And so basically, compas wasdeveloped or at least we started
developing COMPAS as atreatment for borderline
(37:26):
personality disorder.
And so BPD is like a reallystigmatized condition that like
kind of the prevailing wisdomabout the disorder is that it
needs really intensive care.
Like often people are in andout of the hospital and when you
are being treated outpatientyou need to be seen at least
twice weekly and you need accessto your therapist after hours.
And I've already mentioned thatwe have like such a tight
(37:47):
crunch on like therapistavailability that like people
needing a lot of care just makesit even the accessibility piece
even harder, right, and that,like for BPD, there's this
thought that you neededspecialist care.
But one of the things that likemyself and like I mean lots of
people in the field, havenoticed is that there's so much
(38:08):
variability in this conditionwhere, like yes, there are
people that absolutely need thisreally high level of care.
There are also people that,like, could be better in like an
18 week outpatient program.
And so this is where, like, Istarted to expand from just like
treatment for neuroticism, foranxiety and depression, right To
(38:29):
thinking about, like, well,what are other domains of
personality that are relevantfor mental health?
And so BPD has been describedas a disorder of negative
emotions, right.
So that neuroticism piece oflike antagonism so sort of
having and antagonism is such abad sounding word and it makes
it sound like it's a person'sproblem but like, really what it
refers to is like difficultytrusting other people, and
(38:51):
people with BPD have often, youknow, they have like a higher
likelihood of having havingexperienced abuse as a kid,
right, and so like, yeah, trustissues makes perfect sense.
And then a disorder ofdisinhibition, so low
conscientiousness, and reallythis is like impulsivity, so
just kind of acting on impulse.
And so we developed modules forneuroticism, for antagonism sort
(39:17):
of increasing your ability totrust people and for
disinhibition, like how do weget people to feel, you know, to
be more conscientious and lessimpulsive?
And basically what this lookslike is we start out by helping
people identify their values,what's important to them, and so
(39:37):
like, for me as a therapist.
I don't.
I don't ever want to come intoa session with a new client and
kind of be like this is the lifeyou should want or that you
should have.
Right, that's gotta be reallyvalues driven and like it's also
a motivator, because once weidentify what's important to a
particular person, we can thensort of say, well, are your
actions living up to thosevalues?
(39:59):
Like, here's your buy in tomake these changes, because
these are the things that youcare about.
And then you know, as the namesuggests, cognitive behavioral
modules, we've got cognitiveskills and so here we have
people you know.
In the neuroticism module wehave people identify their sort
of beliefs about emotions like,oh, it's not okay to feel that
are leading to that avoidance.
(40:20):
In the antagonism or trustmodule we have people kind of
identify their beliefs abouttrust.
Often it's really black andwhite.
You either can trust somebodyor you can't, and really that's
not the reality.
So we try to get people tothink a little bit more flexibly
.
Here we do this exercise calleddimensions of trust, where we
have somebody identify a personin their life and then rate them
(40:43):
on.
Like you know, would they paymoney back?
Can you trust them to not talkabout you behind your back?
Would you let them babysit you?
Would you ask them to pick youup from the hospital or from the
airport?
Would you, you know, do youtrust them to be like supportive
, emotionally, when you tellthem that something's going on
right?
Are they?
Are they going to be likethat's stupid, who cares right?
Or are they going to validateyou?
(41:04):
And a lot of times, what peoplefind is like, oh, either
actually people are moretrustworthy than I thought or I
can you know it's not black andwhite Like I can trust this
person picking me up from theairport, but like I wouldn't
share my darkest, deepest secretwith them.
And then thinking fordisinhibition.
Right, like we identify whetherthere are like self-limiting
beliefs, like things like I needthe adrenaline of the last
(41:27):
minute to get things done.
Like that's a belief that's notlike a reality of the last
minute to get things done.
Like that's a belief that's notlike a reality.
And so we challenge some ofthose things and then the
behavior change module istesting some of those hypotheses
that we have oh, people can'tbe trusted.
Well, yeah, why don't you do anactivity where you share
something personal with somebodyin your life and see what
happens right.
(41:48):
And then if they, you know sokind of pushing people to, you
know in neuroticism, experienceemotions and see that they can
tolerate them, trust people, andsee if they can, you know if
that improves theirrelationships and you know,
delay gratification in thedisinhibition module and see
that you can like tolerate that,like angst of not doing it
(42:09):
right now.
The second, so that's, I mean,that's it sort of in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Yeah, as you were talking, I was thinking again
this whole notion of, I think, alot of people in this world.
In certain things we see thingsin black or white.
Okay, this person can betrustworthy, this person can't
be right.
And, like you said, sometimespeople can be trustworthy in
terms of, like you know, I, theywill pick you up from the
airport.
If you call them, they willshow up, but maybe if you send
(42:35):
them ten dollars they might notpay you on time, right?
So, like there's a spectrum,it's not always a hundred
percent, because when peoplethink about trust it's like I
need to trust you on everysingle thing, and sometimes not
being able to trust that someonemight show up to an event
doesn't mean, for example, doesnot mean that they're inherently
(42:59):
untrustworthy.
That's just probably not wherethey shine.
So it kind of also speaks tothis idea of, like expectations
and people, we all have toadjust our expectations
depending on who we're dealingwith.
So I really liked that examplethat you gave.
That makes a lot of sense.
(43:19):
The other thing I want to touchon really quickly because you
brought it up briefly, but Ialways have to ask this question
is this notion of mental healthmedication right, and I don't
personally think mental healthmedication long will it last?
Is it kind of like, oh, someonecan take medication forever and
(43:54):
never feel depressed, forexample?
So I've always been kind ofskeptical and had this idea that
it might be more of a placeboeffect.
But I just want to hear fromyou, as a professional, your
take on mental health medication.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Yeah.
So I think a couple of thingsthat you mentioned that I want
to respond to.
So so first of all, I'm apsychologist.
I don't prescribe medicine butof course, like I am working
with people that are havebeliefs about medicine, and so
there's often like a couple ofcamps, right, there's like, yeah
, I'll do anything that'll help.
I don't know I'll be on thisfor the rest of my life and
that's fine.
It's just a pill I take in themorning, no big deal.
(44:30):
Then there are people that arelike I never want to do that.
And then there are people thatare kind of in between, that are
like I'm really strugglingright now and actually what the
research anxiety is likestarting an SSRI, like a Prozac
or Paxil, zoloft kind ofsituation and doing like
targeted cognitive behavioraltherapy at the same time,
(44:53):
because it like facilitate,you're better able to use the
behavioral skills if you have alittle bit of a boost from the
medicine.
And then people often willtaper off after they get the
skills on board because they cankeep using the cognitive
behavioral strategies.
That's like has a little bitmore long-term effect.
My understanding is that formost people medicine continues
to work if you continue to takeit.
(45:15):
But then if you stop taking itright, it's not like you, it's
not like it changed anything inyour brain such that it fixed
anything right.
Whereas, like therapy skills,like once you learn them and if
you keep practicing them, likeyou know them, you keep knowing
them.
So so, yeah, I think, like inmy professional experience,
there are people that respondreally great to behavioral
(45:37):
treatment alone and a lot oftimes people who have been
resistant to medication.
When I'm working with them andit's we're just not, it's not
clicking, or it's really hardfor them.
Like this comes up a lot withthe cognitive piece.
Like some people that I workwith, I'll be like, okay, so
you're worried about X.
You know like, could you thinkabout it like this?
And they'll be like, yes, butand then like 13 more negative
(46:01):
thoughts will pop up in itsplace.
People that have some of thosedifficulties often when they
take, when we can kind of getthem to take an SSRI, to consult
with a psychiatrist, or eventheir their like GP.
You see this huge improvementin their ability to use the
skills because they it's justlike, not this onslaught of
(46:21):
negative thoughts anymore, themedication can be really, really
useful.
So so I think like there reallyisn't a one size fits all answer
to medicine.
It's sort of like working withprofessionals to figure out,
like, what is going to be thebest combination of treatment
for you and then just to likemake a note about placebo effect
.
The placebo effect is sopowerful it is crazy, and it is
(46:44):
for every medicine that you take, um, like psych medicine or not
Right Like there are thesestudies that show that if you
take a blue placebo, you sleepbetter and if you take a red
placebo, you rate you like yourate your pain as lower and for.
So, for all medicines that youtake, there's like the medicinal
(47:05):
effect and the placebo effect.
And like the placebo effect iscool because it like makes
people feel better.
So, so, like I don'tnecessarily have a problem with
that and I think it's like youknow, we can get people to feel
like more better if we haveplacebo plus active.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah, that makes sense, you're right.
We have placebo plus active.
Yeah, that makes sense, you'reright.
I think, like you said, allmedication or the notion of
taking medicine has like it hasa placebo effect because you
feel like you're takingsomething that's going to make
you feel better.
So, inherently, you do actuallyend up feeling better because
you trust that is going to makeyou feel better.
The other question I have foryou is does your work consider
(47:46):
trauma?
Because I do know and I dobelieve that trauma impacts
personality, also affects mentalhealth.
So does your work account fortrauma?
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Yeah, yeah, it absolutely does so.
So when we think about likeneuroticism, when we think about
disinhibition, those tend to belike more biological and we
know the biological factors,like we know that like certain
experiences can turn on certaingenes, right, so like you could
become more sensitive, so like Ithink that's that's like super
(48:23):
true.
More sensitive, so like I thinkthat's that's like super true.
Where we I mean where, at leastin the borderline personality
disorder treatment, where wetalk a lot about childhood
trauma or like relationshiptrauma or early experiences.
That comes up a lot when we'retalking about that like
antagonism or trust, and so wespend a lot of time basically
like validating why you're doingwhat you're doing right now,
(48:46):
and so a lot of like badbehavior in relationships, like
seeking reassurance or spreadingor being like I'm gonna break
up with you before you break upwith me, or like not sharing
personal stuff, right, likethere's a function to that that
is very powerful and it's likeyou've been hurt in the past and
you are protecting yourself,and so we work really hard to to
(49:08):
really validate that and youknow to not be like, oh well,
you know, stop doing that, right, we help people kind of
understand the function of thatbehavior for them.
And then we sort of work todevelop this like kind of I
don't know like the notion thatlike it makes sense that you're
using those protective behaviorsbecause you've been hurt in the
past.
(49:29):
And if you continue to use thosebehaviors, sort of like
indiscriminately with everybody,you won't be able to like form
lasting quality relationships.
It becomes really hard.
And so how do you?
How do you open the door alittle bit, you know, to try
(49:50):
with certain people?
And you know, then it is thatsnowball effect where, like,
maybe you do have a friend whoyou know, all right, fine, I'll
ask them to pick me up from theairport, and then they show up,
and then you're like, okay, Ididn't expect them to show up,
but they did.
You know, maybe I could tellthem that I had a hard day at
work and see what they do, right, and so in the same way, in the
(50:15):
same way like I described mypath, kind of, like, you know,
reinforcing thatconscientiousness, you're kind
of doing the same thing withtrust in relationships, and it
can be as fast or as slow assomeone feels comfortable going.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Yes, and one thing I've noticed and maybe it's just
me, but I don't think it is Ifeel like when I look at my
parents' generation and how theyask their friends for certain
favors and ask them to show upfor them in certain ways, they
(50:49):
really don't blink an eye, right?
It's an easy ask, yes, theperson can say no.
It's not like the person alwaysshows up.
But I feel like with ourgeneration, we tend to struggle
with asking people for help,right?
It makes me think about justrelationship dynamics and
expectations and how we kind ofrelate to people in this digital
(51:14):
age.
Right, what is should beexpected from someone who's part
of your community, part of yourfamily, part of your friend
group, versus what shouldn't beexpected, right?
So I think a lot of people feelalone and I think that's also
what's causing a lot of likemental health and uptick in
mental health issues.
So, yeah, that's that.
(51:36):
That was a good point.
And there was something else Iwanted to ask you.
Ok, yes, I want to know whatyou feel like the future of
mental health care is going tobe.
Where do you see it trendinginto?
Speaker 2 (51:48):
You know, one thing that we have seen is that
there's been an increased demandin, you know, in need for
mental health treatment, which,like is either you know people
are really struggling or is likethere's just like less stigma
and people feel more comfortableasking, which is cool, and I
think it's probably somecombination of both and like the
(52:09):
kind of depressing fact isthere will never be enough
mental health providers to tomeet the need.
And so I do think that, like,as a field, like we need to be
thinking, like as a mentalhealth care field, we need to be
thinking about, likealternative ways to deliver
therapy.
You know, are there ways tobuild into schools like
(52:32):
preventive skill building, right?
Like are there ways to I meancognitive behavioral therapy,
like I mean I shouldn't say thissince it's my profession, but
it's like not that hard actuallyand in the global mental health
like research community, likepeople will go into like
countries that have basicallylike no resources and train
people with less than a highschool education to provide,
(52:54):
like that are just respected inthe community to provide CBT and
they see huge effects.
So, like anyone can do it, kindof.
And so could we, you know,could we think about like who
can teach skills right, like so.
Could we, you know, could wethink about like who can teach
skills right, like so that we'resort of and then you know,
taking advantage of self-help ortechnology to be able to
provide kind of a lower level ofcare for people that maybe
(53:18):
don't need like a one-on-onetherapy with, like a
psychologist?
So I think being creative aboutdelivery methods is going to be
really important.
I know we touched about thisalready, but I think, like being
a mental health provider andproviding like research-based
care the way that it was testedin academic settings in the
(53:39):
clinical trials is incrediblycumbersome because there's 50
different treatment protocolsand you just can't learn them
all, and so I do think that likea simplified system with fewer
treatments that can address moreconditions so that therapists
can get better at providingtreatment, I think that's going
to be really important.
(53:59):
And then I think, like to thebigger part of your question.
I think I don't know like theexample I'll give is that like
there was a study that came outduring the pandemic that was
like comparing gold standardcognitive behavioral therapy for
depression in kind of a low SESarea to just giving people a
(54:20):
thousand dollars and you knowwhat worked better to treat
their depression?
Giving people a thousanddollars, um, and so.
So all that is to say that, um,you can't think your way out of
not having the resources tolive your life right.
And if there is like sort of,if there are structural, like
like racial, sexist, likeclassist, um barriers, I mean
(54:46):
you can't like think your wayout of those problems.
And so I think that's like,that's like the bigger kind of
societal piece yeah, that'scorrect.
Speaker 1 (54:55):
You can't think yourself out of those issues
because, yeah, it's a lot oftimes, in a lot of situations,
it's better to have just moremoney, um or more resources
that's funny, you can't feedyour kids or you can't buy your
kids a new backpack for schoollike that's depressing.
Yes, right, and the and the.
The problem this how to solvethat?
(55:15):
The solution for that isn'ttherapy it could be part of it
but the real solution is gettingthose resources, getting more
money so you can feed you andyour children.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
So that is a societal level like why, it's hard for
certain people to like havethose resources systematically.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
Yes, exactly, exactly , that's a huge piece and part
of the conversation.
Yeah, because those things it'skind of I think it's called
Maslow's hierarchy of needs,right?
And if your needs are not metat a certain level like if you
can't feed, if you're strugglingpaycheck to paycheck, and then
there are other barriers ofentry, like you said racism,
(56:00):
sexism, all the isms out thereyeah, that could create lots of
depression, anxiety and allthese other issues that go
beyond personality, go beyondcognitive behavioral therapy,
and it goes to the root cause ofbeing able to live a healthy,
balanced life where you feellike you can thrive, right.
(56:22):
So, yeah, that makes a lot ofsense.
Well, this has been a greatconversation.
I think we can.
We could have gotten deeperinto a lot of these different
subjects that we touched on, soI probably have to have you back
on the podcast, but wanted toend with final words of wisdom
to the listeners.
It could be about what we'vebeen talking about or something
(56:43):
completely different that youjust kind of keep in your back
pocket as you go through life.
Speaker 2 (56:48):
Yeah, I think that sort of my worst to the wise is
kind of a combination of my sortof research and personal
experience with personalitychange and my sort of like
antagonistic, like you don't,can't tell me what I can do,
kind of streak, and it'sbasically like don't let a
personality test put.
I can do kind of streak andit's basically like don't let a
personality test put you in abox and limit you and dictate
(57:10):
who you can become.
You can take intentional action.
You can identify like the lifethat you want and you can take
intentional action to cultivatethe traits that would make it
more likely that you get there.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
Yes, I agree, those personality tests.
I've always struggled to takethem because I'm like I don't
know how to answer this question.
You know, I feel like it'sconstantly changing.
So yes, I agree with you.
That was awesome.
Where can people find you ifthey want to learn more about
your work or just follow you onsocial media?
Speaker 2 (57:41):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So probably the most direct waywith like all the resources is
is my website, and that iswwwpersonality-compasscom.
And then I am on all thesocials.
I'm on Instagram atselfmadepersonality.
I'm on Twitter at Sours ofAllah, which is my last name.
(58:03):
I'm on LinkedIn, for somereason.
So, yeah, you can find me onall the places.
Speaker 1 (58:10):
Awesome.
Thank you so much, Shannon, forstopping by the show.
Speaker 2 (58:13):
Yeah, my absolute pleasure.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
You can follow A Word to the Wise on Instagram and
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We're also on YouTube at A Wordto the Wise Podcast.
Please be sure to subscribe Ifyou are enjoying the show.
Please rate, leave a review,share and subscribe wherever you
listen to podcasts.
Till next time, peace and love,always, always, always.
Hello everyone and welcome back to the A Word to
the Wise podcast, a space wherewe curate conversations around
mind, body, spirit and personaldevelopment.
I'm your host, jumi Moses.
On the show today is Dr ShannonSowers-Avala.
She is a clinical psychologistand academic researcher who has
(00:20):
dedicated her career todeveloping psychological
treatments to help peoplerecover from mental health
difficulties.
She has focused on provenstrategies to shift the
personality traits that putpeople at risk for anxiety,
depression and substance misuse.
But you don't need to bestruggling with your mental
(00:41):
health in order to takeadvantage of what the science of
personality change has to offer.
What if, instead of letting apersonality test tell you what
you've been good at, you canidentify the life you want and
shape your personality to makethose dreams more likely?
(01:02):
Well, in my conversation withDr Sour Zavala, we discuss
proven strategies to nudge ourpersonality traits for success.
Is personality static or is itmore dynamic than we actually
think it is?
Let's get into the show,shannon.
(01:38):
Welcome to A Word to the Wise.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I'm great and I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Thank you for having me.
Yes, I am so excited to speakwith you right, because we're
going to be diving into themechanics of personality and
just your work in the mentalhealth field and you know what
you've kind of like come up withor what you've been a lead
developer in in terms of, youknow, short-term intervention
personality difficulties.
So I'm excited to address allof that.
But first I want to start witha fun question, and that is do
(02:14):
you have a life motto?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Maybe yeah, I don't know that I have it developed as
like a, you know like a quip ora sort of a short motto, but I
guess my, my sort of like NorthStar has always been, you know,
if someone tells me I can't dosomething, then it is like my
life's work to prove them wrong.
So I I think I operate a lot onspite motivation.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
And I respect that and I think that kind of goes
into this what we're going totalk about today in terms of,
like, being able to shape ourpersonality and kind of, you
know, change the way we normallydo things to fit a different
box.
So I think it's fair to ask aswell so do you feel like that
model has kind of shaped a lotof your work around personality
(03:08):
and the mechanics of personality?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, definitely, I think I didn't realize it at the
time.
I was doing, you know, kind ofstarting this work and as I have
started thinking about how Iwould communicate some of our
findings and some of what I'vebeen working on to just like
actual people not otheracademics who read, you know,
like the three other people thatread the academic articles that
(03:32):
I write, you know and have beenreflecting a lot on sort of my
growth as a person.
I think I think, yeah, I thinka really important thing for me
personally and professionally isthat we don't have to stay in
boxes just because we started ina particular place your
(04:04):
background right.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So you've been a clinical licensed clinical
psychologist for over 15 yearsand you're also an associate
professor of psychology at theUniversity of Kentucky.
What drew you to psychology?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think I've always been areally empathetic and sort of
sensitive person and I think,you know I sort of fell into
psychology such that I was not areally great student in high
school and certainly in earlycollege, except that I took this
(04:33):
like intro to psychology classmy freshman year.
It was at 8 am.
I don't know how I because Iwas not a good student and did
not go to class most of the time, but never missed a psychology
class I think it must'veinterest, interested me and I I
did well on the first exam andapparently the sort of a rite of
passage exam and most peopledon't do well in the TA was like
(04:56):
you should seriously consider,um, majoring in psychology.
And I was like, okay, and Ithink like that became part of
my identity and, you know,really did well in those classes
, probably because they reallyinterested me, like trying to
(05:16):
understand why people do whatthey do.
And then after I graduated fromcollege, I worked at a
residential treatment program,no-transcript, and when I went
(05:44):
to graduate school I thought,you know, I want to be a
clinician, I want to providetherapy to people.
And as I um, you know, as I kindof progressed through my
program, realized like I couldhave a bigger impact by um, by
doing research and umparticularly like the applied
(06:04):
research that I do.
So I'm a treatment developmentresearcher and really my goal is
to make mental health treatmentmore accessible.
So anyone that's ever in the USlike tried to access mental
health care knows it's likeeither very expensive or, if you
are using your insurance,there's really long wait lists
(06:24):
and so like what the heck, howcan we make?
How can we make the systembetter?
And so my goal has been todevelop treatments that are more
potent, so that they're moreefficient, so that they can be
personalized and so that they'reeasier for clinicians to use,
and I think all of those thingstogether will help people get
better faster and that will movepeople through the waitlist
(06:45):
faster.
So so I think it's been kind ofa little bit of a winding road
in terms of like I saw myself asa clinician and I certainly
have a private practice andreally love working with people,
but see research really as aplace to make a bigger impact.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah, I appreciate that, because the accessibility
of mental health care justespecially in terms of finances,
you know it can be a roadblockfor a lot of people.
So I love what you're talkingabout just being able to create
something that's more accessibleand can really help people get
to the root of some of themental health issues that they
have.
So, as you were going throughyour journey and, like you know,
(07:23):
from clinician to now doinglike applied research, when did
you realize that, okay, I needto actually zero in on
personality, because peoplethink of personality as static
oh, this is just who I am Right.
When did you realize, like,actually there's something here
that I need to zero in on alittle bit more and do a little
bit more research?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, yeah.
So when we start from thisproblem of like treatment not
being accessible, I start tothink about like, how, like, why
, and the way that our system issort of laid out right now is
(08:05):
that, like, if you go to therapyand you're going to use your
insurance, you have to get adiagnosis, and there's, you know
, a lot of them, maybe 80, ahundred different diagnoses, and
the way that our system and ourtreatment research has worked
until like pretty recently, hasbeen, you know, one protocol or
one manual, one treatment foreach disorder, and so that's a
(08:26):
lot of.
You think about it as like aclinician, right, like that's a
lot of different treatments tolearn and so, and also like
there's a lot of similaritiesacross these different disorders
, right, so we can differentiate, say, social anxiety from
generalized anxiety, which islike worrying, from panic
disorder, but they actuallyshare a lot in common.
And so I think what drew me topersonality research was, you
(08:51):
know, so kind of separate fromthe treatment literature.
There's all this research onpersonality that shows that,
that it can kind of serve as avulnerability to a range of
different mental disorders, andso you know, kind of thinking
about like could we go to theroot of the problem, right, like
(09:11):
the vulnerability factors,rather than kind of playing
whack-a-mole with the differentsymptoms or different disorders.
And I think that that's that'show I got interested in
personality.
You know, for my postdoc Iworked at Boston university with
Dave Barlow, who is a you knowkind of a you know famous person
in in in psychology and we wereworking on a treatment called
(09:35):
the unified protocol and thattreatment is a treatment for
neuroticism or negativeaffectivity.
That's one of our personalitydomains and we find that people
that experience negativeemotions more frequently, more
intensely this is just abiological difference they are
more vulnerable to developanxiety, depression, eating
disorders.
It's not set in stone, right,like, if you're a sensitive
(09:59):
person, it doesn't necessarilymean that you're going to, you
know, have an anxiety disorderdisorder.
It just means you have a tallertask of coping when stuff comes
up and sometimes it's harderfor people, um, so yeah, so
that's how I kind of came topersonality as a way kind of the
root of the problem or thevulnerabilities that could
become our treatment targets andthat would sort of reduce,
(10:22):
instead of 80 different manuals,um, down to like combinations
five, because there's like wetalk about like, what
personality is there's like fivebroad domains that kind of
cover it that we can talk aboutpotentially being prone to
(10:46):
certain, like you know, mentalhealth.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I don't want to say like issues per se, but being
prone to having some mentalhealth difficulties around
certain things, and sensitivitybeing one of the things that you
know.
People who have that, who aremore sensitive, could, you know,
have a little bit more anxiety,and I can raise my hand for
that.
I'm very sensitive, very likeempathetic, and anxiety
something that overthinking, andanxiety is something that I've
(11:10):
struggled with, gotten a lotbetter, but I struggled with
that for some time.
Okay, so what is personality?
Let's get into it right.
What is personality and whatare those you know?
Like you said, you can breakthat down into five different
buckets.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, so one of the most like robustly researched
like theories of personality ormodels of personality is called
the five factor model or the bigfive, and so basically the way
this was developed it's prettycrazy actually.
Like as early as the 1930s,like psychologists kind of like
(11:45):
poured over literally thedictionary and pulled out any
words that that kind of likedescribed human nature, and then
they, they like took thosewords and tried to reduce them
into as many or into intosmaller and smaller groups and
basically when they got to thesefive overarching domains of
(12:05):
personality, they just couldn'tlike combine them anymore.
And this like sort ofdictionary approach has been
replicated in like tons ofdifferent languages and cultures
.
So it kind of is showing thatthere is this sort of universal
thing or these universal fivefactors that keep like getting
reproduced.
And as we have gotten like moresophisticated in our like
(12:29):
statistical abilities, we cansee that replicated in like data
too.
So the five personality domainsare neuroticism, which I already
mentioned, that is, thetendency to experience negative
emotions, extroversion versusintroversion, or detachment and
extroversion.
A lot of people think about itas like your sociability, but
(12:50):
really it's kind of broader thanthat.
It's like your excitability andenergy and being sort of social
and outgoing is part of that.
Then we've gotconscientiousness, and this is
like your achievement, striving,your organization, your follow
through kind of on a continuumwith, like being more
spontaneous, being less of aplanner.
Then you have agreeableness,right, and so that is like your
(13:15):
tendency to be you kind of ateam player, to be caring, to be
empathetic, to be you know tobe, to be empathetic, to be you
know to be kind of go with theflow, versus being maybe more
assertive all the way down tomaybe being a little bit like
forceful.
And then, finally, openness,which is just your, your like
(13:39):
interest in aesthetics or youknow philosophy, right, some
people love to just kind of likedebate the meaning of life.
Those are people really high inopenness, or people that are
really imaginative, and then youknow, then there's more
closeness where people are like,yeah, imagination kind of a
waste of time, like tend to bemore conservative or traditional
.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Um, and there you have it, five domains of
personality is it possible forpeople to have a mix and match
of like a couple of thesedifferent buckets, like
agreeable and like openness, forexample?
I could see a lot of peoplehaving that, and then some
people call themselves like anoutgoing introvert.
I call myself that.
(14:17):
Where it's like in certain, youknow, in certain dynamics or in
certain situations, I'm alittle bit more extroverted, I
have a lot more energy, but I doneed my time to kind of retreat
into myself so I can kind oflike go back and forth.
So is it possible for people tokind of have a mix and match of
these different types of, youknow, personality buckets?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah, yeah.
So so everybody has all five.
Okay, that makes sense If youthink of it as like I don't know
, with a mixer board with likefive, um, you know five domains,
like we can sort of like raisethis or lower the slider,
basically depending on like.
I mean, each individual personhas their own kind of profile,
(15:01):
right.
So you know a person, a personcan be high in neuroticism,
experience a lot of negativeemotions and also be high in
extroversion, lots of positiveemotions, you know, kind of up
and down, or they could be highin neuroticism and low in
extroversion and that's more oflike, kind of like low energy,
sort of depressive.
You could be low in neuroticism,not feel a ton of negative
(15:21):
emotions, and you could be highin extroversion or you could be
right in the middle oneverything.
And so when you describe, likeyou know, extroverted, introvert
, a lot of times when we, whenwe can't put anybody into a box,
they're like right in themiddle, right, people that can
kind of.
You know, in some situations Ican be more outgoing and in
other situations I like my quiettime versus somebody that like,
(15:42):
like, would really low inextroversion, would like really
be like a home body kind ofsituation, whereas, like I know,
people that are so extrovertedthat they like I mean I think
they really you notice it duringlike COVID lockdown where
they're just like climbing thewalls because they're not
getting that stimulation, and soeverybody has, like different
(16:02):
combinations of these traits.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Oh, okay, I get it now.
So it's, it's kind of, those arethe different.
So if there's, if personality isa spectrum, right, all of those
things fall within a spectrumand some people have certain
elements dialed up, other peoplemight have it dialed down or it
might just be at differentlevels, depending on you know
where that person is in theirlife.
(16:26):
And I think that feeds into thenext question, which is I used
to think of personality asstatic, but the way you just
described it, it means thatthere are certain moments where,
again, you know, using theextrovert versus introvert
example, there's certain momentswhere I dial up extroversion
and I might be coming off like,oh, I thought Jimmy was
(16:48):
introverted, but it seems likeshe's more extroverted, and that
might happen for a period oftime.
So it might seem like I'mhaving some sort of personality
shift or I can make mypersonality more malleable, like
personality is not static,right?
So can we talk about that alittle bit more, because I feel
like that's so interesting I'venever thought about it that way
that personality can be a littlebit more dynamic and not static
(17:12):
.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that that is like how we
were all really taught to thinkabout personality and I think,
in a lot of ways, like makes usreally precious about it, like,
oh, like my, it's who I am, youknow, it's my essence.
And you know, when we thinkabout personality with this like
big five or five factor model,you'll notice that, like, what's
not in there are your tastes,your sense of humor, your values
(17:35):
, right, and I think those arethe things that make you you, um
, when we're talking about thefive factor model of personality
, we're basically talking about,like your characteristic way of
thinking, feeling and behaving,kind of in response to the
world.
And when we think aboutpersonality, we again we're like
(17:57):
oh yeah, personality, that's myessence, it's unchangeable.
But, like, we change how wethink about things, we change
our perspective all the time.
We develop new habits andchange our behavior all the time
, and you know we change how wefeel about certain things all
the time.
So when you think, when you kindof break down that definition
of personality, like, yeah, itmakes sense that we could, we
(18:17):
could change those things, right, and if you change the way that
you think about other people,like you know, if you started
out being like you know, oh, youcan't trust anybody.
But then, like, throughexperience, you know, maybe
learn that you can, right,you're going to start to fill
out those bubbles on thepersonality questionnaires
differently, right, if youmaintain those changes over time
(18:37):
, then like, but in essenceyou've changed how you're
responding and what you looklike on those personality
domains.
And when we look at researchright across the population, we
see that people, like kind of atthe group level, on average
people tend to get less neuroticover time.
They tend to get moreextroverted, more agreeable,
more open and more conscientious.
(18:59):
Some people change a ton andsome people stay pretty static,
but like my, you know, kind oflike intervention work shows
that we can take like kind of 20years of personality change and
we can see similar effects inlike 20 weeks just by people
taking these intentional actions.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Wow, the word, the keyword there is intentional,
because I feel like you have toalmost be conscious of how you
are interacting with the world,because that's a lot of what
kind of makes up our personalityas well.
To your point, and I want totalk a little bit about you,
because you say that you woulddescribe yourself when you were
like a teenager, much younger,as, quote unquote lazy, right.
(19:40):
But here you are a successful,academic, right.
I don't, when I think aboutpeople who are in academia, I
don't correlate that withlaziness at all.
Like one of my sisters, she'sin academia and she's on the
grind so much research, so muchwork that they have to do.
So can you just talk a littlebit about that?
Because I know, I thought thatwas a powerful example about
(20:02):
kind of you know, I don't wantto say mending your personality,
but kind of tapping into maybestronger elements that could
propel you forward and, you know, into the successful career.
Can you talk about that alittle bit?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
So I think, like I, when I wasmuch younger, it was pretty low
in like what we would callconscientiousness, right, our
sort of like, um, you know, ourability to be planful, our
ability to be reliable, tofollow through, Um, I like I
mean a good example like in highschool I like rarely attended
(20:36):
math class.
My junior year failed and hadto repeat it the following year.
Um, you know, and in college,like I mean, aside from like
being really narrowly focused onmy psychology classes, I mean
just, you know, oh, I don't feellike going, like really didn't
apply myself and um, I thinkthat also kind of.
So there's that piece of me.
(20:57):
But then there's also the like,I don't know, maybe it's like a
little bit of antagonism, likelow agreeableness, where I'm
just, like you said, I can't dothat, you know.
That I think sort of made mehave really big goals or see
myself kind of achieving a lot,but like I didn't have the
conscientious personality toactually do that Right.
(21:18):
And so, going back to that ideaof like intentionality, I think
that, like we, we have to kindof have goals or values that are
really important to us.
That's going to be themotivation to like take these
(21:39):
intentional actions to shift ourpersonality traits, because
it's hard and so you have tohave some buy in to do it.
And so basically for me, like Imean I started to tell you
about this a little bit alreadyI, you know, I did well in my
very first psychology class andthe TA was like you should major
in psychology and I started tosee myself as like I'm good at
(21:59):
psychology and that made me.
That was like reinforcing to me.
It felt really good andwhenever there's like a reward
for doing something, itincreases the likelihood that
you're going to do the behavioragain.
It's like kind of basic psych101.
So, um, so I was like showing upto those classes and performing
well in those classes and Istarted to see myself as like
somebody that could help otherswho might be struggling in those
(22:21):
classes.
Um and so that sort of likesnowballed this like very narrow
, conscientious behavior in thisone area.
Then, um, you know, I sort ofwas like I'm going to go to
graduate school for psychologyand shared this with one of my
professors and she was like,yeah, that's great and I think
you could do it because you'redoing so well in your psychology
(22:43):
classes and I don't thinkyou'll get in because your
overall GPA is not good enough.
And so that was like reallylike embarrassing and like I
felt so guilty that I had likewasted this opportunity.
And so experiencing negativeemotions can be a very powerful
like reinforcer too, becausewe're really motivated to reduce
(23:06):
those, and so I sort of tookthat guilt right.
The function of guilt is totell you, oh, don't do that
again, like that was bad whenyou did that before.
So, um, so I started to reallyapply myself in my other classes
and saw, oh, like theseconscientious behaviors that I
had developed for psychology,like actually I could expand,
that I could do that in otherplaces.
(23:27):
And so I started to see myselfnot just as like I'm'm good at
psychology, but more like goodat school, like I'm smart, I can
actually do this.
And so eventually, like I mean,I didn't get into graduate
school the first time I applied,applied my senior year, but,
like after my like secondsemester of senior year, had
gotten my GPA up enough to be,like you know, somewhat
(23:49):
competitive.
And when I finally did go tograduate school, it just got
like exponentially more thingsyou had to keep track of and you
know, I got my very firstplanner and, you know, I think,
like graduate school is like aplace where that characteristic
of like I need to prove myselfto people, I think like it like
(24:14):
rewards that.
And so there are these thingsthat don't really matter in the
real world but matter a lot inacademia, like publications and
grant funding, and as you getthose things, it's like you get
this respect and recognition andthat was a really powerful
motivator.
And then finally, like now, aslike a faculty member and like a
(24:35):
mentor, I have graduatestudents of my own.
I know that like they need meto respond, like give them
feedback on their drafts andanswer their emails quickly,
because they need to kind oflike build their resumes, and
they see me as this, likecompetent person, a good mentor,
(24:58):
and I want to live up to thatstandard Right.
So.
So that kind of keeps me movingin that direction, and so I
think it's funny because itstarted off as this like very
small thing where I like didwell on one exam, but that like
kind of started this upwardtrajectory of change.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, like a snowball effect, which I think it's
powerful, what you just kind oftalked about, right, because you
started to believe in yourself,right, it's like someone
planted a seed.
Hey, you're really good at this, you're really good at the
psychology thing, and you'relike, huh, I am and you like
went with it.
And I think a lot of times toyour point, like that positive
(25:38):
reinforcement is the motivatingfactor for people to continue to
like move forward in adifferent trajectory.
And the more you kind of leaninto something I think it's
called neuroplasticity, right,so your mind started to feel
like, oh, I'm capable, I'mcompetent, I can do this, I'm
smart enough, kind of likealmost training you to be more
(26:01):
of a go-getter rather than just,I guess, flowing, going with
the flow, which I don't thinkthere's anything wrong with that
, but with everything there'sbalance, right, if you go with
the flow too much, then thingsnever get done.
But if you're able to kind ofbalance that, obviously then you
know things are better.
So I really liked that you saidthat.
It also made me think aboutpeople, for example, who might
(26:22):
be trying to get a little bitmore fit.
Right, you first start off atthe gym and you're like I
literally cannot lift anyweights, but you're like you
know what, I'm going to stickwith it for a month and then in
that month you realize thatyou're getting stronger and that
just makes you want to keepgoing and going, and going.
So I think I think that'sawesome.
But I also want to ask, youknow, for example, for people
(26:42):
who have ADHD, I don't know ifthat's considered a personality
trait, but I know that that islike a mental.
I don't even know if that's amental health issue, but I do
know it's some sort of cognitiveissue that, you know, does not
allow people to focus the waythey want to focus, and people
(27:03):
have, you know, talked about how, like that kind of hinders them
from going for their goals andall of that stuff.
So how does your work kind ofdoes your work address ADHD
related, you know, cognitivesymptoms?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah, so.
So in my experience, like justlike providing therapy to people
with ADHD, a lot of timesthere's like two things that are
happening.
There's like the ADHD, which islike a cognitive piece and I
would not describe that aspersonality and then there's
like an, you know like there'slike an anxiety right, and an
(27:38):
identity piece right, and that'sthe piece that's like well, I
have ADHD, I can't like thisunderlying cognitive issue.
And then I'm like adding kindof I'm elaborating on it, and so
I think, like with some of thelike sort of personality change,
(28:00):
like sort of reducingneuroticism, like increasing
confidence, like we can take theedge off some of that, so that,
like you know, like if you'veever tried to study something
when you're really anxious aboutit, it's really hard right.
So, like you know, like ifyou've ever tried to study
something when you're reallyanxious about it, it's really
hard right.
So like, add that to likehaving an attentional issue and
it's it's really tough.
So if we could take away theanxiety piece and it's just the
attentional issue, that's goingto make it a little bit easier.
(28:22):
Um, the personality changestrategies that that, like I
think about in in my work, arenot going to address the
cognitive piece.
Um, that like I mean, andreally the like first line
treatment for ADHD is medicine.
I'm, one of my kids has ADHDand like I have seen firsthand,
like as we have, you know, wesort of like resisted putting
(28:44):
her on medicine at first.
But she was like I'm trying sohard and it's still not working.
And when she said that right,like that's not a
conscientiousness issue becauseshe's really trying so hard,
it's like, uh, you know, like aa cognitive issue.
And when we got her on medicineyou could see that
(29:06):
conscientiousness sort of likebloom yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
I I see what you're saying there.
Because ADHD is such acognitive issue, the strategies
for, like, the strategies thatyou have related to personality,
may or may not be effective.
How does personality impactmental health?
(29:31):
Like, if I came to you with anissue and let's say I was having
a moment of depression or I wasstruggling with anxiety, how
would you, how would the thenotion of personality, how would
you help me through that?
By zeroing in on personality?
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, yeah so.
So a lot of times when peoplecome into the clinic, they are
coming in with more than onemental health diagnosis, and
that's because there is morethat's similar about different
diagnoses, like anxiety anddepression.
They tend to like come together, and so so the way that I would
think about that withpersonality is that I would
(30:16):
think that the person kind ofhas like a vulnerability right,
that they might be sort of likehigher on that neuroticism
dimension and that just meansthat they're more sensitive,
right, that they experiencenegative emotions more, more
strongly.
And so what can happen you know, this is just specifically for
neuroticism, but, like, what canhappen is that when we
experience our negative emotionsreally strongly and we find
(30:38):
them uncomfortable, right, likeI mean, it's not that pleasant
to be sad all the time or to besad at all, right, or to be
anxious when we experience thoseemotions and this happens, I
think, more when people are moresensitive is that they develop
these beliefs about emotionsthat are like I shouldn't be
feeling this way, this is souncomfortable, I can't stand
(31:00):
this.
Those are like sort ofperceptions about yourself,
about the emotions, right Aboutreally.
I mean, I don't use the wordneuroticism when I'm doing
treatments Just talk about, like, how you relate to your
negative emotions and so,instead of working on like your
like depression per se or yourlike anxiety per se, we're
(31:21):
talking broadly about yourrelationship with your emotions
and what we find is that, likeon the on the you know, I'm kind
of like the downward spiralside what happens is somebody
experiences their emotionsreally strongly, they don't like
them very much, they have thesenegative beliefs about them and
then they engage in avoidanceright, avoidance for depression
(31:42):
looks like I withdraw socially,right, because, like, it really
sucks to try to be social whenyou're not really feeling it and
that makes you feel worse inthe short term, right.
So people will like sleep a lotor, you know, withdraw socially.
Avoidance and anxiety can looklike a lot of different things,
right.
So in like social anxiety, it'slike oh, like they might judge
(32:02):
me, so I'm not going to go tothis thing or I'm not going to
participate in this meeting.
In like generalized anxiety, itcould look like like over
researching thingsresearchingthings, over-planning, like
double-checking your email amillion times, right, and
basically, when you avoid, itmakes you feel better in the
short term, right, but itbackfires in the long term right
Because, like, when you leavethe party, when you're socially
(32:25):
anxious, it confirms the beliefthat, like, feeling anxious is
dangerous, that parties aredangerous.
So the next time you encountera situation like that you're
going to feel even more anxious.
And so that's this idea that,like the more we have negative
emotions like that's kind of thestarting point but like the
more we find them aversive andthe more we avoid them, it leads
(32:46):
to what we call rebound effects, where you just basically
experience negative emotionsmore frequently and more
intensely.
So that's like maintaining yourneuroticism.
The way to break the cycle isto not avoid, right?
So you have to and you knowwe're not necessarily talking
about like, oh, go to parties,although that might be part of
it it's like we have to learnthat it's okay to experience
(33:09):
emotions and kind of welcomethem.
And it's sort of this paradoxwhere the more you're like cool
with feeling, the more you'reokay with being a sensitive
person, the less interfering itis and actually the the less
frequently you experiencenegative emotions.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense.
And also, I think sometimes,when it comes to you know, this
is just who I am like.
I'm someone who typically hasanxiety.
I'm someone who can be a littleneurotic.
In certain moments, it becomesa self-fulfilling prophecy that,
even though people don't likethese negative emotions, it's
(33:46):
become a part of them and theyfeel like it's their identity or
it's part of their identity,become a part of them and they
feel like it's their identity orit's part of their identity.
And, you know, although peoplewant better for themselves, a
lot of times people are afraidof change.
Like, if I stop being anxious,who am I without anxiety, right?
So can you talk about that alittle bit?
(34:06):
You know, do you encounterpeople who are kind of
potentially resistant to, kindof, you know, making their
personality a little bit moredynamic, because they're afraid
that they're going to change andlose an essence of themselves?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, yeah.
So a lot of times we I know weuse this phrase in therapy like
the devil you know, versus thedevil you don't.
And so it's like doing these,these kind of like therapeutic
activities they're basicallycalled exposures and you like go
and put yourself in situationsthat bring up those emotions,
you can practice like toleratingthem.
Essentially that is hard, right.
(34:48):
And like, because you don'thave a lot of experience not
being anxious or neurotic, youdon't know that it's better on
the other side and like mostpeople have figured out how to
like function, how to kind ofwhite knuckle it through, and so
they, they it's like the devilthey know, right, and there's no
guarantee that it's going to bebetter on the other side.
(35:09):
So I think that that's that's.
I mean, I think that is areally important piece.
Another thing that sometimescomes up, depending on, like the
nature of someone's anxiety,right.
So this comes up a lot withlike perfectionism and anxiety,
where it's sort of this doubleedged sword because it it like
is so uncomfortable and you'reputting so much effort in, you
(35:30):
know you're staying late at work, or, like you know, when I work
with college students, it'slike the amount of effort and
angst that goes into like anonline discussion post that is
worth like one point becauseother people are going to see it
right.
Like people are really scaredto let go of some of that
(35:51):
perfectionism because it hasgotten them good outcomes in the
past and they don't knowwithout actually testing it out.
Like if you did 80% of the likegood job that you're doing
right now, first of all, no onewould notice and it would still
be high quality and still giveit an A or still get a pat on
the back or whatever.
Right and so.
But it's so scary to try that.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yes, I can relate to that.
When I had to, those discussionforums were so anxiety
provoking because you're justlike, if I was just handing it
into my professor, I wouldn'toverthink it, I'd be confident.
But when, like, tons of otherpeople are reading it,
especially your colleagues, yourclassmates, you're like, oh my
god, I hope they don't think I'mdumb.
Um, or is this good enough?
(36:35):
You know, you, and also it's acompetition thing.
You want to sound like thesmartest in the room and or on
the discussion forum.
There's so much that goes intoit.
Um, but, yes, I, I agree withthat.
And now I want to talk a littlebit about the short-term
intervention personalitydifficulties to address common
mental health problems, and youcall that COMPAS.
So can you talk about, yeah,can you talk about COMPAS and
(36:58):
like what that means and whythis is effective in short-term
intervention personality?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah.
So COMPAS is like if you reallysquint your eyes is an acronym
for cognitive behavioral modulesfor personality symptoms, like
if you really squint your eyesis an acronym for Cognitive
Behavioral Modules forPersonality Symptoms, so like
you really have to force it, butit's kind of there.
And so basically, compas wasdeveloped or at least we started
developing COMPAS as atreatment for borderline
(37:26):
personality disorder.
And so BPD is like a reallystigmatized condition that like
kind of the prevailing wisdomabout the disorder is that it
needs really intensive care.
Like often people are in andout of the hospital and when you
are being treated outpatientyou need to be seen at least
twice weekly and you need accessto your therapist after hours.
And I've already mentioned thatwe have like such a tight
(37:47):
crunch on like therapistavailability that like people
needing a lot of care just makesit even the accessibility piece
even harder, right, and that,like for BPD, there's this
thought that you neededspecialist care.
But one of the things that likemyself and like I mean lots of
people in the field, havenoticed is that there's so much
(38:08):
variability in this conditionwhere, like yes, there are
people that absolutely need thisreally high level of care.
There are also people that,like, could be better in like an
18 week outpatient program.
And so this is where, like, Istarted to expand from just like
treatment for neuroticism, foranxiety and depression, right To
(38:29):
thinking about, like, well,what are other domains of
personality that are relevantfor mental health?
And so BPD has been describedas a disorder of negative
emotions, right.
So that neuroticism piece oflike antagonism so sort of
having and antagonism is such abad sounding word and it makes
it sound like it's a person'sproblem but like, really what it
refers to is like difficultytrusting other people, and
(38:51):
people with BPD have often, youknow, they have like a higher
likelihood of having havingexperienced abuse as a kid,
right, and so like, yeah, trustissues makes perfect sense.
And then a disorder ofdisinhibition, so low
conscientiousness, and reallythis is like impulsivity, so
just kind of acting on impulse.
And so we developed modules forneuroticism, for antagonism sort
(39:17):
of increasing your ability totrust people and for
disinhibition, like how do weget people to feel, you know, to
be more conscientious and lessimpulsive?
And basically what this lookslike is we start out by helping
people identify their values,what's important to them, and so
(39:37):
like, for me as a therapist.
I don't.
I don't ever want to come intoa session with a new client and
kind of be like this is the lifeyou should want or that you
should have.
Right, that's gotta be reallyvalues driven and like it's also
a motivator, because once weidentify what's important to a
particular person, we can thensort of say, well, are your
actions living up to thosevalues?
(39:59):
Like, here's your buy in tomake these changes, because
these are the things that youcare about.
And then you know, as the namesuggests, cognitive behavioral
modules, we've got cognitiveskills and so here we have
people you know.
In the neuroticism module wehave people identify their sort
of beliefs about emotions like,oh, it's not okay to feel that
are leading to that avoidance.
(40:20):
In the antagonism or trustmodule we have people kind of
identify their beliefs abouttrust.
Often it's really black andwhite.
You either can trust somebodyor you can't, and really that's
not the reality.
So we try to get people tothink a little bit more flexibly
.
Here we do this exercise calleddimensions of trust, where we
have somebody identify a personin their life and then rate them
(40:43):
on.
Like you know, would they paymoney back?
Can you trust them to not talkabout you behind your back?
Would you let them babysit you?
Would you ask them to pick youup from the hospital or from the
airport?
Would you, you know, do youtrust them to be like supportive
, emotionally, when you tellthem that something's going on
right?
Are they?
Are they going to be likethat's stupid, who cares right?
Or are they going to validateyou?
(41:04):
And a lot of times, what peoplefind is like, oh, either
actually people are moretrustworthy than I thought or I
can you know it's not black andwhite Like I can trust this
person picking me up from theairport, but like I wouldn't
share my darkest, deepest secretwith them.
And then thinking fordisinhibition.
Right, like we identify whetherthere are like self-limiting
beliefs, like things like I needthe adrenaline of the last
(41:27):
minute to get things done.
Like that's a belief that's notlike a reality of the last
minute to get things done.
Like that's a belief that's notlike a reality.
And so we challenge some ofthose things and then the
behavior change module istesting some of those hypotheses
that we have oh, people can'tbe trusted.
Well, yeah, why don't you do anactivity where you share
something personal with somebodyin your life and see what
happens right.
(41:48):
And then if they, you know sokind of pushing people to, you
know in neuroticism, experienceemotions and see that they can
tolerate them, trust people, andsee if they can, you know if
that improves theirrelationships and you know,
delay gratification in thedisinhibition module and see
that you can like tolerate that,like angst of not doing it
(42:09):
right now.
The second, so that's, I mean,that's it sort of in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Yeah, as you were talking, I was thinking again
this whole notion of, I think, alot of people in this world.
In certain things we see thingsin black or white.
Okay, this person can betrustworthy, this person can't
be right.
And, like you said, sometimespeople can be trustworthy in
terms of, like you know, I, theywill pick you up from the
airport.
If you call them, they willshow up, but maybe if you send
(42:35):
them ten dollars they might notpay you on time, right?
So, like there's a spectrum,it's not always a hundred
percent, because when peoplethink about trust it's like I
need to trust you on everysingle thing, and sometimes not
being able to trust that someonemight show up to an event
doesn't mean, for example, doesnot mean that they're inherently
(42:59):
untrustworthy.
That's just probably not wherethey shine.
So it kind of also speaks tothis idea of, like expectations
and people, we all have toadjust our expectations
depending on who we're dealingwith.
So I really liked that examplethat you gave.
That makes a lot of sense.
(43:19):
The other thing I want to touchon really quickly because you
brought it up briefly, but Ialways have to ask this question
is this notion of mental healthmedication right, and I don't
personally think mental healthmedication long will it last?
Is it kind of like, oh, someonecan take medication forever and
(43:54):
never feel depressed, forexample?
So I've always been kind ofskeptical and had this idea that
it might be more of a placeboeffect.
But I just want to hear fromyou, as a professional, your
take on mental health medication.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Yeah.
So I think a couple of thingsthat you mentioned that I want
to respond to.
So so first of all, I'm apsychologist.
I don't prescribe medicine butof course, like I am working
with people that are havebeliefs about medicine, and so
there's often like a couple ofcamps, right, there's like, yeah
, I'll do anything that'll help.
I don't know I'll be on thisfor the rest of my life and
that's fine.
It's just a pill I take in themorning, no big deal.
(44:30):
Then there are people that arelike I never want to do that.
And then there are people thatare kind of in between, that are
like I'm really strugglingright now and actually what the
research anxiety is likestarting an SSRI, like a Prozac
or Paxil, zoloft kind ofsituation and doing like
targeted cognitive behavioraltherapy at the same time,
(44:53):
because it like facilitate,you're better able to use the
behavioral skills if you have alittle bit of a boost from the
medicine.
And then people often willtaper off after they get the
skills on board because they cankeep using the cognitive
behavioral strategies.
That's like has a little bitmore long-term effect.
My understanding is that formost people medicine continues
to work if you continue to takeit.
(45:15):
But then if you stop taking itright, it's not like you, it's
not like it changed anything inyour brain such that it fixed
anything right.
Whereas, like therapy skills,like once you learn them and if
you keep practicing them, likeyou know them, you keep knowing
them.
So so, yeah, I think, like inmy professional experience,
there are people that respondreally great to behavioral
(45:37):
treatment alone and a lot oftimes people who have been
resistant to medication.
When I'm working with them andit's we're just not, it's not
clicking, or it's really hardfor them.
Like this comes up a lot withthe cognitive piece.
Like some people that I workwith, I'll be like, okay, so
you're worried about X.
You know like, could you thinkabout it like this?
And they'll be like, yes, butand then like 13 more negative
(46:01):
thoughts will pop up in itsplace.
People that have some of thosedifficulties often when they
take, when we can kind of getthem to take an SSRI, to consult
with a psychiatrist, or eventheir their like GP.
You see this huge improvementin their ability to use the
skills because they it's justlike, not this onslaught of
(46:21):
negative thoughts anymore, themedication can be really, really
useful.
So so I think like there reallyisn't a one size fits all answer
to medicine.
It's sort of like working withprofessionals to figure out,
like, what is going to be thebest combination of treatment
for you and then just to likemake a note about placebo effect
.
The placebo effect is sopowerful it is crazy, and it is
(46:44):
for every medicine that you take, um, like psych medicine or not
Right Like there are thesestudies that show that if you
take a blue placebo, you sleepbetter and if you take a red
placebo, you rate you like yourate your pain as lower and for.
So, for all medicines that youtake, there's like the medicinal
(47:05):
effect and the placebo effect.
And like the placebo effect iscool because it like makes
people feel better.
So, so, like I don'tnecessarily have a problem with
that and I think it's like youknow, we can get people to feel
like more better if we haveplacebo plus active.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah, that makes sense, you're right.
We have placebo plus active.
Yeah, that makes sense, you'reright.
I think, like you said, allmedication or the notion of
taking medicine has like it hasa placebo effect because you
feel like you're takingsomething that's going to make
you feel better.
So, inherently, you do actuallyend up feeling better because
you trust that is going to makeyou feel better.
The other question I have foryou is does your work consider
(47:46):
trauma?
Because I do know and I dobelieve that trauma impacts
personality, also affects mentalhealth.
So does your work account fortrauma?
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Yeah, yeah, it absolutely does so.
So when we think about likeneuroticism, when we think about
disinhibition, those tend to belike more biological and we
know the biological factors,like we know that like certain
experiences can turn on certaingenes, right, so like you could
become more sensitive, so like Ithink that's that's like super
(48:23):
true.
More sensitive, so like I thinkthat's that's like super true.
Where we I mean where, at leastin the borderline personality
disorder treatment, where wetalk a lot about childhood
trauma or like relationshiptrauma or early experiences.
That comes up a lot when we'retalking about that like
antagonism or trust, and so wespend a lot of time basically
like validating why you're doingwhat you're doing right now,
(48:46):
and so a lot of like badbehavior in relationships, like
seeking reassurance or spreadingor being like I'm gonna break
up with you before you break upwith me, or like not sharing
personal stuff, right, likethere's a function to that that
is very powerful and it's likeyou've been hurt in the past and
you are protecting yourself,and so we work really hard to to
(49:08):
really validate that and youknow to not be like, oh well,
you know, stop doing that, right, we help people kind of
understand the function of thatbehavior for them.
And then we sort of work todevelop this like kind of I
don't know like the notion thatlike it makes sense that you're
using those protective behaviorsbecause you've been hurt in the
past.
(49:29):
And if you continue to use thosebehaviors, sort of like
indiscriminately with everybody,you won't be able to like form
lasting quality relationships.
It becomes really hard.
And so how do you?
How do you open the door alittle bit, you know, to try
(49:50):
with certain people?
And you know, then it is thatsnowball effect where, like,
maybe you do have a friend whoyou know, all right, fine, I'll
ask them to pick me up from theairport, and then they show up,
and then you're like, okay, Ididn't expect them to show up,
but they did.
You know, maybe I could tellthem that I had a hard day at
work and see what they do, right, and so in the same way, in the
(50:15):
same way like I described mypath, kind of, like, you know,
reinforcing thatconscientiousness, you're kind
of doing the same thing withtrust in relationships, and it
can be as fast or as slow assomeone feels comfortable going.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Yes, and one thing I've noticed and maybe it's just
me, but I don't think it is Ifeel like when I look at my
parents' generation and how theyask their friends for certain
favors and ask them to show upfor them in certain ways, they
(50:49):
really don't blink an eye, right?
It's an easy ask, yes, theperson can say no.
It's not like the person alwaysshows up.
But I feel like with ourgeneration, we tend to struggle
with asking people for help,right?
It makes me think about justrelationship dynamics and
expectations and how we kind ofrelate to people in this digital
(51:14):
age.
Right, what is should beexpected from someone who's part
of your community, part of yourfamily, part of your friend
group, versus what shouldn't beexpected, right?
So I think a lot of people feelalone and I think that's also
what's causing a lot of likemental health and uptick in
mental health issues.
So, yeah, that's that.
(51:36):
That was a good point.
And there was something else Iwanted to ask you.
Ok, yes, I want to know whatyou feel like the future of
mental health care is going tobe.
Where do you see it trendinginto?
Speaker 2 (51:48):
You know, one thing that we have seen is that
there's been an increased demandin, you know, in need for
mental health treatment, which,like is either you know people
are really struggling or is likethere's just like less stigma
and people feel more comfortableasking, which is cool, and I
think it's probably somecombination of both and like the
(52:09):
kind of depressing fact isthere will never be enough
mental health providers to tomeet the need.
And so I do think that, like,as a field, like we need to be
thinking, like as a mentalhealth care field, we need to be
thinking about, likealternative ways to deliver
therapy.
You know, are there ways tobuild into schools like
(52:32):
preventive skill building, right?
Like are there ways to I meancognitive behavioral therapy,
like I mean I shouldn't say thissince it's my profession, but
it's like not that hard actuallyand in the global mental health
like research community, likepeople will go into like
countries that have basicallylike no resources and train
people with less than a highschool education to provide,
(52:54):
like that are just respected inthe community to provide CBT and
they see huge effects.
So, like anyone can do it, kindof.
And so could we, you know,could we think about like who
can teach skills right, like so.
Could we, you know, could wethink about like who can teach
skills right, like so that we'resort of and then you know,
taking advantage of self-help ortechnology to be able to
provide kind of a lower level ofcare for people that maybe
(53:18):
don't need like a one-on-onetherapy with, like a
psychologist?
So I think being creative aboutdelivery methods is going to be
really important.
I know we touched about thisalready, but I think, like being
a mental health provider andproviding like research-based
care the way that it was testedin academic settings in the
(53:39):
clinical trials is incrediblycumbersome because there's 50
different treatment protocolsand you just can't learn them
all, and so I do think that likea simplified system with fewer
treatments that can address moreconditions so that therapists
can get better at providingtreatment, I think that's going
to be really important.
(53:59):
And then I think, like to thebigger part of your question.
I think I don't know like theexample I'll give is that like
there was a study that came outduring the pandemic that was
like comparing gold standardcognitive behavioral therapy for
depression in kind of a low SESarea to just giving people a
(54:20):
thousand dollars and you knowwhat worked better to treat
their depression?
Giving people a thousanddollars, um, and so.
So all that is to say that, um,you can't think your way out of
not having the resources tolive your life right.
And if there is like sort of,if there are structural, like
like racial, sexist, likeclassist, um barriers, I mean
(54:46):
you can't like think your wayout of those problems.
And so I think that's like,that's like the bigger kind of
societal piece yeah, that'scorrect.
Speaker 1 (54:55):
You can't think yourself out of those issues
because, yeah, it's a lot oftimes, in a lot of situations,
it's better to have just moremoney, um or more resources
that's funny, you can't feedyour kids or you can't buy your
kids a new backpack for schoollike that's depressing.
Yes, right, and the and the.
The problem this how to solvethat?
(55:15):
The solution for that isn'ttherapy it could be part of it
but the real solution is gettingthose resources, getting more
money so you can feed you andyour children.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
So that is a societal level like why, it's hard for
certain people to like havethose resources systematically.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
Yes, exactly, exactly , that's a huge piece and part
of the conversation.
Yeah, because those things it'skind of I think it's called
Maslow's hierarchy of needs,right?
And if your needs are not metat a certain level like if you
can't feed, if you're strugglingpaycheck to paycheck, and then
there are other barriers ofentry, like you said racism,
(56:00):
sexism, all the isms out thereyeah, that could create lots of
depression, anxiety and allthese other issues that go
beyond personality, go beyondcognitive behavioral therapy,
and it goes to the root cause ofbeing able to live a healthy,
balanced life where you feellike you can thrive, right.
(56:22):
So, yeah, that makes a lot ofsense.
Well, this has been a greatconversation.
I think we can.
We could have gotten deeperinto a lot of these different
subjects that we touched on, soI probably have to have you back
on the podcast, but wanted toend with final words of wisdom
to the listeners.
It could be about what we'vebeen talking about or something
(56:43):
completely different that youjust kind of keep in your back
pocket as you go through life.
Speaker 2 (56:48):
Yeah, I think that sort of my worst to the wise is
kind of a combination of my sortof research and personal
experience with personalitychange and my sort of like
antagonistic, like you don't,can't tell me what I can do,
kind of streak, and it'sbasically like don't let a
personality test put.
I can do kind of streak andit's basically like don't let a
personality test put you in abox and limit you and dictate
(57:10):
who you can become.
You can take intentional action.
You can identify like the lifethat you want and you can take
intentional action to cultivatethe traits that would make it
more likely that you get there.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
Yes, I agree, those personality tests.
I've always struggled to takethem because I'm like I don't
know how to answer this question.
You know, I feel like it'sconstantly changing.
So yes, I agree with you.
That was awesome.
Where can people find you ifthey want to learn more about
your work or just follow you onsocial media?
Speaker 2 (57:41):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So probably the most direct waywith like all the resources is
is my website, and that iswwwpersonality-compasscom.
And then I am on all thesocials.
I'm on Instagram atselfmadepersonality.
I'm on Twitter at Sours ofAllah, which is my last name.
(58:03):
I'm on LinkedIn, for somereason.
So, yeah, you can find me onall the places.
Speaker 1 (58:10):
Awesome.
Thank you so much, Shannon, forstopping by the show.
Speaker 2 (58:13):
Yeah, my absolute pleasure.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
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Till next time, peace and love,always, always, always.
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