145. Attachment Theory and Romantic Relationships Ft. Thomas Westenholz

We're peeling back the layers of the four attachment styles—secure, anxious, dismissive-avoidant, and fearful-avoidant—to discover the profound ways in which they shape our interactions with those closest to us. 

We navigate the delicate interplay of attachment patterns in romantic partnerships, uncovering strategies to foster true intimacy without falling prey to misguided dating advice. Learn how a securely attached partner can be a cornerstone for an anxious individual's journey towards stability, and the remarkable shifts in self-awareness that can lead to healthier relationship choices. 

As we wrap up our enriching dialogue, we shine a spotlight on the emerging field of psychedelic therapy and its role in mental health and relationship healing. With a focus on harm reduction, we discuss the therapeutic potentials and risks of substances like MDMA, psilocybin, and DMT. 

Where to find Thomas Westenholz: 

https://coupletherapy.earth/
https://open.spotify.com/show/0k8tq88A7oy2CNBxgaLi0z?si=Kti_XWNdT4OMEeQL8fOI9g&nd=1&dlsi=91670c935ab94747

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome back to the A Word to
the Wise podcast, a space wherewe curate conversations around
mind, body, spirit and personaldevelopment.
I'm your host, jumi Moses.
On the show today, we take adeep dive into attachment theory
.
Now, I'm sure a lot of you haveheard this concept before,
especially on social media.

(00:20):
I know I've heard aboutavoidant attachment versus
anxious attachment or secureattachment, for example.
However, I've heard aboutavoidant attachment versus
anxious attachment or secureattachment, for example.
However, I've never fullyunderstood the power in
understanding attachment theoryand how understanding attachment
theory can make us moreself-aware and show up better in
our relationships, especiallyour romantic relationships,

(00:46):
especially our romanticrelationships.
In short, attachment theory isa psychological explanation for
the emotional bonds andrelationships between people.
These relationship bonds oftenstart in childhood and we're
going to get deep into all ofthat.
There are four types ofattachment styles secure
attachment, anxious attachment,dismissive, avoidant and fearful
avoidant, and some people fallon the extreme end of some of

(01:09):
these.
You know styles and a lot of ustend to be kind of in the
middle and might changeattachment styles depending on
who we're dating or thecircumstances.
On the show today to help medissect these different
attachment styles and how theyshow up in relationships is

(01:30):
Thomas Westenhals.
Thomas is a couples therapistspecializing in attachment
theory.
He is also an authorfacilitator in psychedelics,
breathwork and ecstatic dance.
His expertise bridges the gapbetween traditional therapy and
alternative healing practicesand in our conversation we
discuss attachment theory, howwe develop our specific types of

(01:53):
attachment styles, how eachattachment styles play out in
relationships and howpsychedelics can help couples
understand each other better.
I learned so much in thisepisode and I believe you will
too.
Let's get into the show, thomas.

(02:23):
Welcome to A Word to the Wise.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
I'm really excited to speakwith you.
I've been looking to get acouple of therapists on the show
for a while to talk aboutattachment styles and attachment
theory, so I feel like this isa well-overdue conversation on
the podcast.
But thank you so much for beinghere today.
How are you?

Speaker 2 (02:44):
I'm really well and I'm really excited about this
conversation, also because Ifeel, you know, when I look
online, there's so muchdifferent advice going around
that isn't really grounded inscience and things that actually
work that often, I think,confuse people more than it
helps them.
And what is amazing aboutemotional focus couple therapy
it's really well researched andit kind of gives us a framework

(03:05):
for how to navigate and createself safe, flourishing
relationships, and that's quiteexciting that we actually have
that nowadays.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yes, it is so exciting and speaking about so
much information out there andgetting confused.
I know attachment theory issomething that people talk about
a lot.
They tend to talk about theanxious versus avoidant and I'm
going to ask you what thedifferent attachment styles are
in a little bit.
But yes, I'm looking for somemore grounded, science-based
information and discussionaround this topic.

(03:35):
Now I want to ask you whatsparked your interest in couples
therapy and specializing inattachment theory?

Speaker 2 (03:44):
That's a good question and I think it came
from the fact that I messed upmy own 12-year relationship and
I remember, literally the dayafter my partner had moved out,
I bought this book by SueJohnson called Hold Me Tight,
and I was lying there in theevening reading this book
because I wanted to understandwhat has happened.
And as I started to read aboutthe attachment styles and the

(04:06):
different dynamics she calledthem dances that we get into I
could literally see, likeimagine being in a movie Matrix.
It was like this.
I could see everything that hasgone wrong and in that moment
my anger and resentment gotreplaced with this huge sense of
compassion, both towards mypartner or ex-partner, but also
towards myself, because it wasno longer about her being the

(04:29):
enemy or me self-blaming and sayI was wrong.
I could suddenly see these olddances that we brought with us
from a very, very young nervoussystem that we unconsciously
have continued to play out, andhow they didn't interact well
together and how that got us offtrack right.
And it was so incredible tojust have that moment of
complete clarity and then alsobe able to move forward and

(04:53):
actually implement that tocreate very, very different
dynamics, because there now wasan actual structure, and you
could also now easily see, whenyou went out of that, why we
were now out of balance, right,and there was a template for how
do we get back into balanceagain.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
I always find it very interesting when someone's
profession is spurred out of apersonal moment or something you
know significant happens intheir life, that completely
shifts their perspective orbrings them to a new subject

(05:30):
matter.
That illuminates what theproblem was.
And now it's like this narrowfocus to better understand it
and to in some ways teach it andoffer help to couples who are
struggling with understandingone another.
Looking at each other, it's youversus me, because that's how a
lot of couples look atthemselves.
It's not.

(05:50):
Oh, we're a team.
We need to figure this outtogether.
So what are the different typesof attachment styles?

Speaker 2 (05:58):
So the literature kind of defines four key
attachment styles.
And again, I think what I justwant to say before this is
because often people hear thisand then they go to their
partner and say, oh, I heardthis, you are X, y and Z.
This is not something that'smeant to be used to blame other
people.
Actually, it's meant to be ableto help us have compassion for
other people and understand whytheir primal nervous system

(06:20):
respond in certain ways to tryand restore safety right.
And also, we're not defined.
Our attachment styles is notwho we are and they're even
changeable, which is veryfascinating.
So over time, exposed to asecure, safe dynamic, we know
that the nervous system actuallychanges.
So I just want to say thatbefore so people don't think oh
my God, this is me.
It's not a definition of whoyou are.

(06:42):
So the four attachment stylesthat you mentioned obviously
anxious and avoidant, but let'sstart with secure attachment.
So we have a framework for whata balanced individual actually
look like, right?
Because for some people, whatdoes that even look like?
So somebody with secureattachment definitely haven't
had perfect parenting.
We even know securely attachedadults had parents who missed

(07:03):
the tune about 70% of the time.
So it's not about perfection.
You don't have to hit yourselfif you're a parent and say, oh,
I've been a bad parent, but whatthey had is they tend to have
parents who responded to theirneeds and distress, who
respected their boundaries, andin that they formed a model of
the world that was people aregoing to respect me, people are
safe, people are going torespond to my needs, it's safe

(07:24):
to get close to someone and I'malso fine on my own, meaning
they much, much, much fasterrestore balance, they have a
much wider what we call windowof tolerance where they can move
with stress much more beforethey lose control and can't
bring themselves back, whilepeople who haven't had that
responsiveness, they don't havethat flexibility in their
nervous system, they don'tanticipate that somebody is

(07:50):
going to respond to them.
So they need defensivestrategies to keep themselves
safe.
Right, and this is where wecome into all the other three,
which all are actually anxiousattachment styles, even though
we don't have that label for allof them.
But let's start with anxiousattachment.
Anxious attachment is someonewho might have had, let's say,
somebody who might haveabandonment, a father who maybe
suddenly have left, or there hasbeen something that had created

(08:11):
that nervous system to fear asense of abandonment, to feel
that they had to let go of asense of self to appease others,
to get what they want.
It's often associated with whatwe call the people pleaser,
right, very classical.
The anxious attachment is aperson who will ruminate a lot,
so when things don't go wrong,they will keep thinking what if
I had done this?
Or what if I'd done this?

(08:32):
Maybe my relationship wouldhave worked out.
That's the anxiously attached.
Yeah, the avoidant doesn't dothat at all, right, so they tend
to get very anxious and theyneed you know, often a lot.
I don't like the word needy weuse that a lot in our culture,
but that's again because wedon't understand what's below.
There's a child that didn'thave that responsiveness.
They had somebody who was notconsistent in that right and

(08:54):
that made the nervous system ofa small child feel really
anxious, right, which is very,very normal adaptive behavior.
And for that they tried toplease this other person to make
sure they would continue to gettheir needs.
And as a child, you need thatbecause if your parents don't
attend to you, well, youactually die.
So it is life or death and thisnervous system is with us even
through adulthood to the day wedie.

(09:17):
Then we have avoidant attachment, which is somebody who often
had parents who didn't respond,who ignored their needs, and it
was all classical.
Remember when they said let thebabies cry, you know, because
otherwise they won't learn to beindependent?
We now know from science thisis nonsense and it's very, very
harmful.
Because what happened is a baby, unlike an adult, can't
regulate.

(09:37):
The part of the brain thatregulates emotion isn't
developed yet.
It only started around ageeight and finished around
mid-twenties.
So a young baby have no way ofregulating emotion.
Okay, so when they startgetting dysregulated and cry
because they need food, they'retired, they're cold, whatever it
is, and nobody comes to respond, their body start becoming so

(09:58):
dysregulated that it's actuallydangerous.
Yeah, they can even die from it, they can go into a shock.
So the only way for theorganism to restore safety is to
shut down all these emotions.
And that now learn nobody willcome when I need it.
And these are the avoidantpeople that don't like intimacy.
When things get too close, theypanic, they run away.

(10:19):
They tend to prefer to dealwith stress on their own,
because they learn toself-regulate really well
because they only had themselvesto, so they don't like to
depend on others.
They will constantly talk aboutindependent.
I'm so independent, I'm soproud of our independent.
I achieved all this myself.
That's often a very avoidantperson, right, but the anxious
tend to need co-regulation fromother people.

(10:39):
They can't do that very wellthemselves, right, right.
And the secure can do both.
They can both regulate self andwith others.
The last one is disorganized,and disorganized is the
attachments that are closelyrelated to very severe trauma,
and it is a very extreme form ofanxious and avoidant attachment
put together in one.

(10:59):
And what tend to happen wasthat the caregiver that was
meant to provide comfort woulddo that sometimes, and at other
times it would cause severetrauma.
That meant that childcompletely had to disassociate
and get away and disengage fromall emotion, get close really

(11:25):
quickly.
That's the extreme side of theiranxious attachment.
They want.
They're very intense.
They'll be like I love youafter a few weeks and you're the
most amazing person.
It's very, very intense, right,and they almost create an
artificial intensity to get youclose, to soothe their anxiety,
right.
But then, when you come close,the panic steps in because the
people that were close to themalso harmed them.
Now they become the extremespectrum of avoidant, which is

(11:48):
they suddenly disengage, theysuddenly completely numb out,
and for most balanced peoplethis will be so confusing.
It will be like what?
What happened?
They wanted close, then I cameclose.
Now they panic, they don't wantto talk to me for two weeks and
then they will then come backagain and be very anxious and
this is a attachment stylethat's very difficult to be an
intimate relationship with.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
And again, that doesn't mean they don't deserve
intimate relationships, but theycertainly hopefully can also
get individual therapy on theside, which will definitely be
necessary to be able to create asafe, secure dynamic that was
an amazing breakdown, especiallythe last one kind of sounds
like what people talk about lovebombing, where they meet

(12:32):
someone and it's oh my God, thisperson is so into me and then
the person switches up andthey're thinking what just
happened?
You said I was the love of yourlife.
Now you're not picking up mycalls.
So in you talking about all ofthese different attachment
styles, one thing that keepscoming up is this talk about
childhood and how that affectspeople's attachment styles.

(12:53):
So is attachment theory basedon how a person grows up?
Is it really heavily tied tosomeone's childhood?

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yes, it is, and it's primarily where these neurons
are formed in the brain and thenervous system.
So they become, they operatewhat we call the unconscious
limbic system, below awareness,and actually everything that
comes through is processedthrough this neural network
before you become aware of it.
This is why people makeinterpretations of what happened
based on what happenedpreviously, right, that's why if

(13:26):
suddenly, let's say, yourpartner is late and you're very
anxious, you might straight awaycome to the conclusion they
don't care about me.
Yeah, and that's because it'salways been filtered through
this old network before you evenbecome aware.
So you're not often even awarethat these presumptions can very
highly be incorrect, because wehave to think about the
organism, and especially thebrain was actually designed as a

(13:47):
predictive organism, meaningits main purpose is to use all
data to predict what mighthappen in the future, to ensure
safety, right, which is a veryeffective strategy, because if
every time we go to a door, wehave to figure out how does the
door open and is this safe totouch or not?
That would require a lot ofprocessing power, right?
So this is really an effectivesystem.

(14:09):
However, it's also faulty,because if those early
experiences created a lack ofsafety, then now we interpret
everything that's happeningaround us through this lens and
we're also the slowest mammal togrow up.
If you look at every othermammal, many animals are ready
for full function in a couple ofweeks, couple of months,
maximum a couple of years.
They can function on their ownwithout parents.

(14:31):
You know we take 18, sometimeseven longer before we are
mammals who can actually go outand function ourselves and take
care of ourselves right.
That's because we were themammal that was most created to
be adaptable to our environment.
So we come with a much moreblank slate, meaning that we can
adapt much better to what is,and we even know now attachment

(14:53):
starts even before we are born.
If a mother has high levels ofcortisol, stress hormone and
adrenaline in the bloodstream,we know that the amygdala, which
is part of the fear response,is more primed and grow larger
already at birth, meaning that'salready priming that child to
say I'm coming into a stressfuland dangerous world, which is

(15:13):
why we need to look out forpregnant women a lot more.
We need to provide much moreplace for them to be able to
have support right, because themore stressed they are, the more
likely we get children thathave a hard time functioning in
society.
So, yeah, this forms reallyearly and unless we become
really aware and can thenintervene with things like

(15:34):
attachment theory and emotionalfocus couple therapy, we tend to
relive through these again andagain and we tend to seek out
partners that create what'scalled a reenactment.
So let's say you had a veryavoidant dad, right, and it's so
typical, I get very anxiouswomen.
It doesn't mean that it's onlywomen that could have anxious
attachment, but it's verytypical coming in and they

(15:56):
continue to seek out avoidantmen again and again and they're
like I don't know why I'm doingthis, it's not good for me, but
I'm attracted to them and that'sbecause, on an unconscious
level, they're going throughwhat's called a reenactment.
Their brain is trying to get aresolution by replaying the same
scenario, hoping this time itcan create a different ending.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
That was so good, you know.
The first thing that I want totouch on that you said is the
notion of you know even how itstarts from birth, right how the
mother's emotions could affectthe baby.
And it made me think aboutsomething that I read from the
newest book by Dr Gabor sorry,dr Gabor, mate, I think I have

(16:43):
it here the Myth of Normal.
I just wanted to make sure Igot the title correct and he
talked about big trauma versuslittle trauma, right, and he was
saying how, when he was younger, his mom had to send him away
with relatives for his safetyand even though he was a child

(17:03):
and she was doing that for hissafety, he kind of I think he
was like less than one or aboutone years old that was kind of
the catalyst to feeling likepeople were not reliable or
people that love him weren'tgoing to be there for him.
Just feeling alone, right,feeling very lonely, right,

(17:25):
feeling very lonely.
And then obviously that had,you know, ripple effects
throughout his life.
But it's just so interesting howdeep these things can be and
how, you know, attachment theory, I feel like, is kind of that
red light blinking signal that'ssaying something's wrong here.
This is, you're acting outsomething deeper that needs to
be looked at.
And the attachment, yourattachment style is not

(17:47):
necessarily it's the effects ofa larger, of larger symptoms, I
should say.
So it's very, very interesting,and it's interesting how you
talked about the anxious versusavoided relationship dance,
because that's the one that Isee a lot online and I want to,
you know, go deeper into that.

(18:07):
But before I even go deeperinto that, I know that again, it
was a lot of it is focused onhow someone grew up and a lot of
the stuff that was ingrained orprogrammed in their brain that
they're not even aware of.
But could someone's attachmentstyles change after dating
someone?
So, for example, let's say asecure person enters a

(18:30):
relationship with an avoidantperson, can they come out of
that relationship either anxiousor disorganized, meaning you
know they're open to love, butthen they also have this fear of
love when it becomes too close,based on the experience that
they had in a specificrelationship, or is it typically
just from childhood?

Speaker 2 (18:52):
So these attachment styles definitely change, but
also depending on who we're with, and so it's very unlikely that
somebody with a secureattachment style would develop a
disorganized attachment style,because if they already have
that foundation they are muchmore likely to be able to come
back, and disorganized usuallyis very early trauma.
Of course somebody with asecure attachment can have

(19:14):
trauma later in life, but eventhen we know that they're much
less likely to get PTSD orcomplex PTSD from that trauma.
So people who have more ofthese anxious attachments are
also much more likely to beaffected much worse, we know, by
trauma.
They're much more likely to endup in prison etc, etc.
So you know there's a wholerange of this and we can even

(19:34):
see it from a culturalperspective too, because people
that have more access toresources they're more likely to
be able to give their childrenthat attention, to create secure
attachment right, which is whythere's disproportional of some
people in prison etc.
But anyway, that wasn't yourmain question.
So, yes, can it changeAbsolutely?
So the typical example that youmentioned, I think, was the

(19:54):
anxious avoidant and it's a goodexample of if we take somebody
with anxious attachment andagain, this operates at a
spectrum right, it's not thateverybody with anxious are the
same level of anxiety oreverybody with avoidant are the
same level of avoidance.
But if we take someone who'sslightly anxious, put them
together with somebody veryavoidant, they will obviously
come and try and get somebody torespond.

(20:16):
They need the closeness.
The avoidant will pull awaybecause they feel very
uncomfortable.
That will make the anxious feelmore anxious, so they will now
chase more and that will makethe other one pull away even
more.
And then you get this cyclewhere they create more and more
anxiety, more and more avoidance, so they make each other worse,
which is why that is probablythe most difficult dynamic.

(20:37):
They try to find their repairand their reenactment in each
other.
Basically right.
So it's a very classicalexample, very common, but it
tend to be very, very difficultto make these work.
If you take a anxious one andput together with a securely
attached, you will see that theanxious will slowly start

(20:57):
becoming more and more secure,because when they suddenly say,
oh, I felt really, you know so.
So also also the secure canlisten much more to underlying
needs than other people can.
So if suddenly this anxiousperson were criticizing them and
oh, I can't believe you're outso late and you didn't call me.
The secure attachment is muchless likely to become defensive

(21:17):
because they feel safe inthemselves.
They're much more likely to say, oh so you didn't feel safe
that I was out and didn'tcontact you, and then what do
you need?
And then, oh, I need you tocheck in with me when you're out
.
Okay, I can do that.
So they're much more likely torespond to the underlying need
and in that you start creatingsafety for the other person.
And what happens when you createsafety?

(21:38):
Then all these behaviors and Idon't like the word needy, but
we often call it that right, butI think it's a very judgmental
word but that what people callneediness become less and less.
I call it a request forresponsiveness, because that's
really what it is that becomeless and less and the criticism
become less and less, becausethe anxiety comes down right.

(21:58):
And then you will see themstart forming a more secure bond
.
Start forming a more securebond.
But again, if you have twopeople in therapy, two people
that are very aware and one isavoidant, one anxious, it's
always going to be harder, butthey can together create a
secure dynamic even thoughneither of them have a secure
attachment style, because theycan choose to spot their own

(22:18):
pattern, they can choose not toengage in those automatic
responses, and they can chooseto then communicate their
underlying attachment needs, andthen they can learn how to
become more responsive to eachother which is what we do in
couples therapy, essentially andthen they start feeling more
safe.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
Thank you for that, because it always seems, like
you know, whenever I hear aboutthe anxious and avoidant dance,
I'm like, how can this work?
But so many people have comeout and say that they are able
to make it work.
But, like you said, I think itrequires a heavy sense of
self-awareness to understand.

(22:57):
Oh, these are my patterns ofself-awareness, to understand.
Oh, these are my patterns.
I'm actually acting in avoidantways or I'm actually acting in
anxious ways.
And if I'm recognizing theseare my patterns, then when they
flare up I can be like, oh, I'mdoing this again and, like you
said, be able to create thatmore secure dynamic.
And I also like the example thatyou gave with the secure person

(23:18):
versus the anxious person.
If they were to be in arelationship, the anxious person
becoming more secure becausethe secure person is able to
pull them in.
Is that the same for, like, asecure, avoidant person?
Or do you feel that people whotend to be secure aren't
necessarily drawn to avoidantpeople because they can
recognize that being a prettydifficult situation to be in?

Speaker 2 (23:42):
It's a really interesting question.
Yes, attachment style also verymuch define who we find
attractive, right.
And this is why it's superfascinating when people say, oh,
but I know these people are notgood for me, but they're the
only people I'm attracted to.
What we see is that when peoplecome into therapy and they
start feeling a more sense ofsecurity and safety and secure

(24:04):
attachment in themselves becausethey at least have a therapy
who is very responsive to themright, which is what they need,
their nervous system needs Thenthey start slowly becoming
attracted to different people,exactly so.
You know, I've seen plenty ofpeople who came in and maybe had
a quite anxious attachmentstyle and as they started
feeling more and more securelyattached, they weren't so

(24:25):
attractive anymore to veryavoidant partners.
They started becoming much moreattractive to people that were
actually responsive to themright.
And I think again, there's a lotof these dating fallacies by
so-called dating experts withoutany actual qualification who
will teach you all thesedifferent games that you have to
play right.
And they're completely missingthe cue, because what they're

(24:45):
doing is they're actuallyreinforcing, staying in
defensive strategies where therecan't be intimacy.
So what they're doing isthey're staying in the survival.
I'm in danger.
I need survival strategies,right, and in that you can't
actually have intimacy, youcan't create safety, so that

(25:05):
reinforce insecurity, thatreinforce instability, right,
which is why they don't tend tobe able to maintain relationship
, even though they give a lot ofadvice.
So, yeah, I think that'simportant to be aware of and
also just be mindful, because,you're right, it's about having
self-awareness and people canmake something work.
I'm not saying that nobody canwork because they're anxious and
avoidant.
Together, we have to just bemindful and know that this
predictive brain that we haveoften is very faulty in its

(25:27):
prediction, and especially if wedidn't have good frameworks
growing up.
So it's being able to say, oh,I feel, I think he doesn't care
about me because he didn't callme, right, he's out with his
friend and he didn't, he doesn'tcare about me.
Oh, this is what my braininitially predict.
It doesn't mean it's true right, because often I know that this
prediction is incorrect.
So it's starting to pick upthese incorrect predictions of

(25:51):
the future that the brain istrying to do to help us.
But they're no longer correctright, because they're based on
an old model and then we canwiden the gap between when we
feel something and thinksomething, and when we respond,
because if we respond straightaway we will go on autopilot,
which is the old responses.
So we need to learn how do Iregulate enough to not respond

(26:11):
straight away, because then Ican start building new patterns
and something.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
There are two things that I wanted to um, quickly
touch on and to your point about.
You know, the more secure youbecome, the more your desire or
attraction to certain peoplechange, and I think that makes a
whole lot of sense.
And then the second thing I wasthinking about, too, is that
I've seen situations that looklike someone who is typically
avoidant will get into arelationship and then all of a

(26:49):
sudden they're super anxiousbecause they're dating another
avoidant.
Have you run into situationslike that and why do you think
that is?
If you have run into that?

Speaker 2 (27:02):
situations like that and why do you think that is if
you have run into that?
Yeah, I think we also have toremember that a lot of us walk
around and don't really showwhat's actually going on.
So people can maybe appear tobe quite avoidant on the outside
because they want to appearconfident but actually feel very
anxious right on the inside.
And, as you said, if twoavoidance are with each other,
they tend to actually get onquite well in the main, that

(27:23):
none of them have a big need forintimacy.
They tend to mainly base theirrelationship on things like
physical gratification, havingsex together, you know, doing
their careers independently.
So they tend to be able toactually get on in that way.
They don't feel very close orconnected, but they tend to be
able to actually get on in thatway.
They don't feel very close orconnected, but they tend to be
able to just function becausenone of them really crave that
intimacy, right, it only seemedto become a problem when there's

(27:46):
somebody who want that intimacy, which someone to cure anxious,
who really crave that and thatcan't be given.
But yes, somebody who's a bitavoidant can certainly become
anxious, for sure, and we haveto remember that avoidant
attachment is also an anxiousattachment style.
Right?
When they actually measured theneurological response, people
who avoidant feel equally amountof anxiety internally.

(28:07):
Right, they have just come upwith different coping strategies
.
So it's important to know thatthese attachment styles does not
say much about how we feel.
It says something about how wehave learned to respond.
Right, and that's quiteimportant because we can tend to
presume that, oh, someone withavoidant doesn't experience pain
, they're not anxious.
That's not true at all.

(28:28):
We know that that's veryopposite.
They can be very dysregulated,they can experience a lot of
anxiety, but they don't tend togo out and ask for help.
They don't go out and share.
They're the people that whenthey're stressed or anxious or
depressed, they pull away.
They don't come and say I needyour help, right?
While the anxious tend to reachout to anyone who wants to
listen, right?
So these are just differentcoping strategies.

(28:50):
So it doesn't mean thatsomebody who's avoidant does not
experience anxiety internally.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
And I would assume as well that you know, like you
said, all of these things are aspectrum and someone might be
super secure in a relationshipbut when it comes to their work,

(29:18):
attachment styles, depending onthe situationships or situation
that we're in, because I assumethis is not just for romantic
relationships.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yes, and you're spot on, and we do so.
We tend to have a default,which is the primary strategy
that we have, but you'reabsolutely right, of course it's
dependent on context.
So I'll give you an example.
So I am lucky because I hadvery stable parents growing up.
So I was growing up and I got asecure base from them, right.
So I have trust that I'll beokay on my own and I also am

(29:53):
very happy to be intimate andget close to someone and I trust
that most people will respectmy boundaries and my needs and
in that is a general secure basewhen I relate.
However, that doesn't mean Ican't be knocked out of balance,
and I know so.
I have a son which is how I gotinto psychedelic assisted
therapy who's got a life limitcondition and sometimes he has

(30:14):
to spend extensive time inhospital and go through lots of
surgeries, Like the last twomonths he had five surgeries,
right.
He just came out yesterday andin that period my nervous system
become more anxious and I knowI need more reassurance from my
partner, right.
So there's no doubt that mynervous system was much less in
balance and it normally is.
I found it harder to regulate.

(30:35):
I would get more triggered bysmall things that normally
wouldn't trigger me at all, Likeher going to the cinema with
her friend normally would notbother me the slightest but
because I was in hospital with ascreaming child and she was out
and that suddenly bothered me,right, and I started feeling
anxious and stressed.
But the difference is because Ihave a secure base I could

(30:56):
communicate that underlying need, and avoidant would hardly ever
probably go and say listen,this is happening and therefore
I feel insecurity and my need isfor a bit more reassurance for
you while my son is in hospital,right?
But that's what I said to mypartner and the reason I did
that and an avoidant wouldn't dothat or very unlikely to do it
is because I have trust thatthere will be responsiveness.

(31:18):
So it feels safe to to say thatright, and because I do that,
I'm more likely now to actuallyget what I need, right.
So she said oh, of course Ididn't realize that, but I'll
make sure to do that and thattotally makes sense.
And then you readjust right andyou reestablish safety.
So that's an example thatcertain circumstances can
definitely knock us out ofbalance, but it's easy again to

(31:38):
come back to balance if we havethis baseline.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Thank you for that example, and I want to talk
about the psychedelic part ofyour expertise a little bit
later, because I know you justmentioned that with your son, so
I'm excited to kind of digdeeper into that.
But I also wanted to talk abouthow really understanding
attachment theory and attachmentstyles can really benefit
couples.

(32:03):
Obviously, we've alluded to itthroughout the whole
conversation, but there wassomething that you said that I
wanted to respond to but forgotto was this notion of you know
dating experts or people talkingabout how to play games when
you're getting to know someone,and I always kind of thought
that was silly, because if youstart off playing games, then

(32:24):
where's the opportunity tocreate real intimacy and get to
know this person?
And then your relationship ispredicated on games, and a lot
of times I think that couplesare still playing games with
each other even though they'remarried and they've been
together for 10, 20 years.
It becomes this like ego war,right?
So I just wanted to kind ofreally highlight how

(32:46):
understanding attachment theoryand different attachment styles
can really help couplescommunicate better and create
better intimacy.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yes, of course, and it certainly can.
And I think, when we talk aboutplaying games, why do people
play games?
They play games to have a feltsense of control over the
environment, right?
Why do they have the need?
When do we need to control ourenvironment?
When we feel anxious, when thefear response is firing up in
our brain, then we need tocontrol our environment more,
right?
So that's essentially what itis.

(33:17):
People who try to play games areactually people who are in a
survival mode because they feelhighly unsafe.
So people that feel safe don'ttend to play games.
They don't need to, right,because they don't think that
there is a threat in theirenvironment.
They feel safe in thatenvironment.
So it's a big indicator as wellof somebody's internal state

(33:38):
when they play a lot of games,right?
Or if they don't play games andyou're spot on, it's impossible
to get intimacy from that placeif you try and play games, and
we actually know that secure,safe attachment is the best and
most effective survival strategy.
And we know that when a childfeels safe, they don't become
less independent.
They become more independent,actually, because the children

(34:00):
that are most likely to go outand explore, most likely to be
willing to take risk are theones that have a secure base.
They go out and they know I canexplore the world, but if I
fall down from a tree, I can goback and mommy and daddy will
help me, right, and because theytrust that they can go explore.
And that relates to when webecome adults, the same patterns

(34:24):
you see.
The people that are morecomfortable with risk, with
uncertainty, are people that hadthat secure base, and it makes
it easier for them to go explore.
And yes, couples can changethis together.
And this is what's so beautifulabout emotional focus, couple
therapy, which is obviously whatI do, and also the most
well-researched couple therapypractice, and it's the only one
that has consistent researchbacking up that it works, also
long term.
There's no other couplestherapy that actually have that,

(34:45):
and the reason it works is thatit functions on some very
simple steps.
That is based on the very corehuman needs we have for survival
, which is a sense of belonging.
We all have a sense ofbelonging from the day we are
born till the day we die.
Right, we are social creaturesat heart and therefore the first
part when people come in is toidentify what is a dance that we

(35:09):
got stuck in.
Right, we call it a dance,because a relationship is kind
of like a dance.
Right, we come in, we fall foreach other.
We're listening to the sametune, we are having a good time,
we're jamming, and then, overtime, we don't realize we're
listening now to two differentsongs and the beat doesn't match
.
And I start stepping on yourfeet and you're like, oh, why
are you doing that for?

(35:29):
And I'm like, oh, why are younot stepping right in rhythm to
get the analogy.
So this is what happens.
Right, we're no longer listeningto the same tune, but when we
realize that it's not thepartner that's the enemy,
because when people come in, welive in a culture that always
want to blame somebody, thatmeans either it's my fault and I
have to feel blame and badabout myself, or it's your fault

(35:50):
and I can blame somebody else.
I don't have to feel blame.
However, what if there wasnobody to blame?
What if there were just twopeople trying to find safety in
the best way that the organismlearned to do?
Because that's really what itis?
And when people can see thesecore dancers, they realize it's
a dance, that's enemy, it's notmy partner.
And when we can externalize it.

(36:11):
We know from human psychologywe tend to come together against
the common enemy.
Right now, they see the danceas the enemy, not the other
person and not themselves.
That creates a possibility ofchange, right.
So now they can spot and say,oh, we are going into whatever
they choose to call this dancethat they identified right, and
now they can instead say, okay,what is the underlying needs

(36:34):
that I actually need?
What are the attachments?
Because people never separatebecause the husband didn't take
out the bin.
That's what they come and tellyou right, oh, he never helped
with this.
What is actually being saidunderneath this is when somebody
say, oh, he didn't help withthis, he didn't help with this.
I hear human beings saying Ifelt alone.
Yeah, I felt alone, I feltunsupported.

(36:56):
It wasn't about the bin, itwasn't about somebody forgetting
the dishes.
Nobody separate or argue ordestroy their marriage and
separate from their kids becauseof that.
It's because they felt alone.
So when we can get to theattachment need and we can
express that to the partner,suddenly their defenses go down,
because when we're blaming andattacking, they have no other

(37:17):
choice than going to fight aflight too, or collapse, and we
can never get anywhere.
Good when we're in that state,right.
But now, by expressingvulnerably these attachment
needs, the other person actuallygoes into compassion instead.
Right, and of course it mighttake a few times because it's
new and in the beginning theremight be what the heck is
happening here.
And with a few times they startfeeling safe enough to hear it

(37:41):
and then you start helping themresponding and look what are you
creating?
Right now You're creating asecure attachment dynamic, which
is responsiveness.
You know, expression of needand responsiveness.
You're basically restructuringwhat they didn't have as a child
.
So you're recreating a safedynamic.
We call it restructuringemotional experience.
We're giving them a newemotional experience, but where

(38:04):
they got the responsiveness thatthey needed and in that the
nervous system starts feelingsafe.
And guess what?
All the practical issues peoplecome in with are so easy to
solve once a nervous system iscalm and they're impossible to
solve when they're inflated andin fight or flight response.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
That was so good.
I loved the dance analogy.
I love dancing just for fun,fun story.
When I was 13, I told my sisterI'm going to run away to
Hollywood and become aprofessional dancer.
So I love dance and moving thebody and I really love the
analogy about you know, when itcomes to couples, it's about
being on the same tune.

(38:46):
You know, being in rhythm witheach other.
You know, doing the steps insync.
It's not, you know, you versusme.
And when the steps start tobecome out of sync with each
other, that's when you need tokind of pay attention to what's
going on, because I think that'sthe part that a lot of couples
miss Like.
When did we start beingunaligned?

(39:06):
Right?
And I really love what you saidabout you know, it's not about
taking the trash out, it's aboutthe feelings underneath that,
the emotions underneath that.
And there was this show that Iwatched a couple months ago.
It's called Couples Therapy,and every time a couple had a
breakthrough, it was because atsome point, they realized all of

(39:31):
their reactions, all of thethings that they were doing, all
of the feelings that they had.
They were able to pinpoint theemotion behind those actions and
those feelings right, Iremember this one woman.
She was just so harsh towardsher partner.
He wanted intimacy, he wantedconnection, but she could only
see what was wrong with it.

(39:52):
She felt like she was beingstifled and underneath all of
that there was this fear that hewas lying right.
And she felt that because ofwhat happened to her in her
childhood, her father and themen in her life kind of
abandoning her.
So there was this like constantfear of abandonment and that

(40:15):
was kind of those emotions werethe reason why she was acting
out and doing whatever she wasdoing.
And once she realized that, itwas kind of like a light bulb
moment for both of them.
Right, and I think the coolthing about attachment theory is
, if you're in couples therapyand you have a therapist who's
kind of walking you through this, it's like, hey, give me your

(40:36):
glasses.
Let me put this on.
What is your vision like?
What are you seeing?
How are you seeing the world?
How are you interacting withthe world?
And, to your point about that,being able to create that
compassion and empathy for yourpartner, and it's like, again,
we're not enemies, there's acommon problem here and we can
solve it together.
You have two imperfect peoplewho've had a story, who've had a

(40:56):
history, coming together tryingto make it work.
Obviously, it takes two totangle.
Two people have to want to makeit work for it to work.
But in those settings, when youhave two people who want to
make it work, I do think it'spossible to have those
breakthroughs.
So, yes, that was a lot, but itwas beautiful how you said that
.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
And you know you're spot on and, like you said, it
takes two people to dance, whichis important.
Most people want to do that andmake it work, because otherwise
it's like one dancing and theother one is standing still and
you're dragging their feetaround on the floor.
It's never going to be a greatdance, right?
It's just not, and eventuallythe person dragging the other
one around is going to getexhausted, right and

(41:35):
disillusioned.
So you're right, it does taketwo people to dance and want to
do it.
But the beautiful is now wehave a structure of
understanding and we can alsoeasily spot what has gone on,
because there's a slow cyclelike I described maybe anxious,
trying to get avoidant, pullingaway, then more anxious would
become criticism and blame.
Then the other one pulling awaymore the avoidant tend to say

(41:57):
things like I can never get itright or I'm gonna fail.
That's typical words of anavoidant right and and then they
get into this slowly.
But there there's alsoattachment injuries, and
attachment injuries are reallysignificant and important to
understand, because that anattachment injury was if one of
the partners were in a keymoment of distress.
He had a surgery.

(42:23):
He almost died on doing surgeryright, and I'm obviously in a
lot of distress because theydon't know what to do.
I can see he's suddenlydeteriorating Now in this moment
.
Is my partner able to respond?
And there could be a millionreasons why they can't.
Maybe they're overwhelmed, butthe nervous system doesn't care

(42:46):
In these instances, which iswhat the organism perceives as
life and death, survival,there's only black and white
meaning is this person there forme or not?
And if the person is not ableto be there, it could be a wife
coming home saying I have cancerand the husband is overwhelmed
so he just walks away, right,and she feels so alone in a
critical moment of attachmentneed that it creates these
injuries that basically colorthe whole relationship.

(43:07):
And even though everything elseis good and they kind of moved
on, something lingers and justisn't right.
And when we find theseattachment injuries, we tend to
be able to go back and repairthem and then everything
suddenly feels back to goodagain, right.
And people often are veryconfused because they will come
in and say well, we get on sowell and we have a lot of fun

(43:28):
and we share all these interests, and yet we don't feel
connected.
And what we tend to find is,when we go back that at some
point in a relationship therewas an attachment injury where
one person really needed theother and, for whatever reason,
the others couldn't show upright.
And we have to go back andacknowledge that the person have
to take responsibility.
They might not have meant tohurt, they might have had a

(43:50):
reason, but they still have totake responsibility for how
their action impacted the otherperson.
And then they need to discusshow they can prevent that from
happening so trust can berestored again.
Right, and it's beautiful tosee that, because suddenly again
you kind of see all theseproblems just disappear.
It's almost like magic andsuddenly people are back in a
flow again.

Speaker 1 (44:12):
Oh my God, I love that term.
Attachment injury.
Yes, because there are momentsin life that happen that are
really really critical,life-changing moments and if
your partner doesn't respond theway you expect them to respond,
that does cause this heavinesswithin the heart or this injury

(44:34):
that you're talking about.
Because you said a secureattachment style within a
relationship is someoneexpressing their needs and
there's a response to that right.
So if someone has tremendousneed at a very critical time and
it's not being responded toappropriately or the person
doesn't acknowledge like oh, Idropped the ball here, that

(44:54):
could just continue to fester.
So I think that's really good,because I've never thought about
it that way.
But you just saying that nowjust was another light bulb
moment for me and I hope it'sanother light bulb moment for me
and I hope it's a lot of it'sanother light bulb moment for
people who are listening to this, thinking my relationship is
good, but there's this part thatI have some sort of like
animosity for or something herethat's a little bit misaligned

(45:18):
and thinking like, oh, thismight have been like some sort
of attachment injury or feelinginjured or let down by the
response of my partner and kindof attacking that head on.
That was really good.
That was really good.
Okay, so just really quickly,before we pivot into the

(45:39):
psychedelics portion of thisconversation, someone who's
listening to this and theyrecognize that, oh, I think I
might be kind of anxious oravoidant, right, because we
can't go back into the past andrelive our childhood.
How can an adult learn to bemore secure, right?
And how much does personalindividual therapy help to

(46:03):
supplement couples therapy?
Because I think you know, theindividual also has to have some
level of self-awareness inorder to properly engage in
couples therapy.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
Yes, that's a really good question and I think
individual therapy has a place.
However, I think we have tothink about all these injuries
were relational injuries.
So somehow I've often seen thattraditional therapy and I am a
therapist too but I've oftenseen and have to say that it
fails a lot of people Becausecoming in one hour a week and

(46:34):
having that does not change thenervous system right.
So couples therapy allows us,with somebody who is already
close to us, a real closeattachment, meaning they also
have much more impact than atherapist has, right, and you
spend a lot more time with themand if you can help them start
creating it, they can reallyrestructure these experiences.
But what do people do ifthey're not in a relationship?

(46:55):
Of course they can do.
Therapy is one way of doing it.
There's also quite recentresearch now since we're going
to start talking aboutpsychedelics anyway that has
showed that certain psychedelicscan actually have a huge impact
on restructuring attachmentstyles, especially anxious
attachment Not so much avoidantattachment but anxious

(47:16):
attachment in particular seem tobe able to benefit quite hugely
by potential psychedelicexperiences done in the right
set and setting and safeenvironment, which is very
exciting because it's hopefullysomething we'll have more
research into and then we alsocan start thinking about if
you're a single person or ifyou're not, is what are the
people you spend a large amountof time with?

(47:38):
Because they are the peoplethat had a huge impact on your
attachment.
If you spend a lot of time onpeople that are not available,
that are not responsive to you,then that's going to reinforce
anxiety and it's going toreinforce the old narrative
people aren't going to respondto me, I'm not worthy, or blah,
blah, blah, whatever.
These narratives are withinform around that right to make

(48:00):
sense of it.
So it's really important tostart looking at choosing people
, friends and whether it'sfamily members and spending time
around people that can give usthat responsiveness.
It doesn't mean that theyalways can give us what we want.
You know, a child also can'talways have what they want.
My kids would love to havechocolate all the time.
I don't give them that rightBecause it's not good for them.

(48:21):
So there's also a place for usto then acknowledge.
But even if I can't give themchocolate, I say I really get.
You want chocolate because it'sso tasty.
I can't give it to you becauseX, y and Z Meaning I'm still
responsive.
Yeah, I'm not ignoring them, I'mnot dismissing it, I'm not
blaming them.
I'm not saying you're stupid,why would you want chocolate?
I'm saying, of course you wantchocolate, it's sweet and tastes

(48:43):
nice, but we can't always havechocolate.
It could be your partner whowants to do something sexually
you don't want, and it's totallyokay, but then we can still
acknowledge them right?
So there's a huge difference insaying oh, I can't believe you
want to do that, which isshaming and create distance
right, and now they will pullaway.
They don't want to get shamedagain.
They probably won't expresstheir needs to you honestly,

(49:05):
going forward or what they likesexually, instead of saying
that's really beautiful, youwant that.
I can totally imagine how thatcould be a turn on.
However, it's not something Ican do with you, and in that now
they're not alone anymorebecause there's somebody who's
willing to at least hear them,someone who's willing to
acknowledge them Right.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
And that can actually create closeness, even when we
can't give them what they want.
Thank you so much for that,because I something I wanted to
ask but almost forgot to is doyou think we put too much
pressure on romanticrelationships?
Because I know you talked about, for example, for a single
person.
You know they can start workingon having better attachment
styles based on like the like,the friends and family they
choose to interact with.
But it made me think of do youthink we put too much pressure

(49:52):
on romantic relationships forour partners to be everything to
us all the time?

Speaker 2 (49:59):
yes, it's the answer.
We definitely do, and the factis, again, it has something to
do with a more structural issuearound how modern Western
societies are structured, whichis that we live often further
away from family, from differentfriends.
We are often more isolated inthat way, so we tend to not have
communal communities aroundthat provide different roles,

(50:22):
which is originally we weremeant to live, and the brain is
designed to live and relate to200 people approximately at max
right and now we're in cities.
I'm in as close to london wherethere's 8.5 million.
This is why people shut down,because literally, we were not
designed to relate to that manydifferent people.
Right, and we can seem verycold in that, because the
nervous system just said this istoo much overwhelm.

(50:44):
Shut down.
So, yes, we do, because you knowthe partner can't be the person
you find funny, the support,the sexy person, the person you
share all your interest with,the one you found safety with.
So we do need to have differentresources, right, and actually
women are much better than this,also cultural, than men are.
We know that in breakups, womentend to deal much better with

(51:07):
it than men do, because womentend to have maintained other
relationships while they're in arelationship, while a lot of
men have the tendency to negatea lot of friends when they're in
a relationship and puteverything on the relationship
and suddenly, when it's notthere, they're like, oh my God,
I don't have anyone here andthey feel very, very alone,
right?
So it's absolutely critical tohave these different elements

(51:29):
outside the relationship so youcan get support from different
people, so you can laugh withdifferent people, so you have
these different resourcesavailable, right, it's
definitely your partner cannotsupply all that, because it was
meant to be a community and notone person who gave us this.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
I agree with you.
I think we need to lean more onother types of community
outside of our romanticrelationship, though I do think
the person you choose to be within a romantic sense somewhat
plays a heavier role ininfluencing your life in certain
ways.
But to your point, I do thinkthat we're not just meant to put
all of that on one person.

(52:06):
So thank you for explainingthat, but, to your point, I do
think that we're not just meantto put all of that on one person
.
So thank you for explaining that.
Okay, so I know that in yourexpertise you bridge the gap
between traditional therapy andalternative healing practices
and you do that throughfacilitating psychedelic
exploration.
Is that correct?
Yes, so I support people intheir journeys facilitating
psychedelic exploration.
Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (52:28):
Yes, so I support people in their journeys and
again, I just because this is avery sensitive topic I just have
to say you know, peopleobviously have to follow
whatever laws that are in theirjurisdictions and their country.
So this is not me tellingpeople that they should do
psychedelics, but I think Icreate awareness around
potential harm reduction butalso the potential benefit of

(52:50):
something that is coming out alot of very exciting and very,
very encouraging research at themoment that seem to have a lot
of application, and they're evendoing research into how
psychedelics can be used incouples therapy and the initial
research is very, veryoptimistic yes, and you know,
I've been hearing a lot aboutpsychedelics now for a couple of
years and I know very littleabout it.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
So how would you explain what psychedelics are?

Speaker 2 (53:18):
So this is a really good question because there's so
much misunderstanding aroundthis.
Psychedelics is what's called aneurological enhancer, and that
might, for a lot of people, be.
What is he talking about?
So, basically, it does a coupleof things, or most psychedelics
does this, which is why theyhave so incredible potential.
So there's one part of yourbrain referred to as a default

(53:40):
mode network, and what this isis your sense of ego, but also
your construct of identity, andthis is a part that decides what
it allowed to come through toyour awareness.
What is not allowed right, andbasically what happens is pretty
much every mental healthcondition, from depression, from
anxiety, from OCD, etc.
Etc.
Addiction is that become arigidity of the mind.

(54:03):
The mind become very rigid inhow it can see the world right
Because of these construct ofthis is who I am, this idea that
I am, this, I'm a man, I'm thiscolor, all these identities
right, can keep us very, verystuck, and it tends to also be
what's caused conflict.
Actually, a really interestingresearch study was done with
Israelis and Palestinians andthey gave them an awaska

(54:25):
ceremony and in the beginningthese people couldn't stand each
other.
At the end of it, afterwards,all that monosity has gone away
because this construct of you'reIsraeli, I am Jew, etc.
Or Palestinian, all theseidentities of countries, of race
, of religion just disappearedbecause they are formed in this
part of the brain and held there.

(54:46):
So when that shuts down, we cansuddenly see new flexibilities,
new options.
We can interpret ourself andother people in a new way.
So all these fearful constructswe talked about, with
attachment, styles that weinterpret the world through,
they can be shut down for awhile and suddenly we can see
maybe he didn't mean to do this,maybe he didn't do this because
he doesn't care.

(55:07):
It opens up the mind and thenthe rest of the brain have this
emotional interconnectednessthat we don't see.
That allow us to access newpossibilities right, which is
incredible, and it also lowerthe fear response in the brain.
But what it does at the sametime is it create
neuroplasticity and neurogenesis, and what that means is it

(55:27):
actually create new cell growthsin the brain and new
connections between cells very,very rapidly, and we have a lot
of this as children, and then itbecomes less and less with age,
but for a period, after takingpsychedelics, this growth in the
brain is really exponentiallyand it's almost, I say, like
imagine being a child for alittle while, which is also why

(55:49):
it's super important when doingthis that people don't just do
it at random places somewhere,because that can be harmful and
if they don't know how tointegrate it it can be very
overwhelming.
But done with the right personin the right setting and with
the right integration, thisallows us almost to restructure
the brain right and reconstructsome of these things that
weren't integrated well ifpeople had trauma or other

(56:11):
things, which is why it'sshowing so promising results.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
Have you worked with couples who have taken
psychedelics together?
And when you're taking apsychedelic, do you have to set
an intention of what you want towork through, or is it more
spontaneous?

Speaker 2 (56:28):
so I, because it's not legal in the uk, I haven't
been able to work where I wasdoing it administrated to
couples.
But yes, I had couples thathave taken mdma um, obviously at
their own risk, etc.
And I can obviously try andadvise them of ways to you can
do testing and other things totry and make sure it's as safe

(56:48):
as possible, right and ways todo it, things you have to go
through checks beforehand, howyou prepare a certain setting.
But yes, and I have seen how itcan be so profound, because
especially MDMA, which isslightly different actually to
the other psychedelics, becausewhile the psychedelic experience
we talked about primarily arethings that happen with magic

(57:09):
mushrooms, with lsd, withayahuasca, but these ego
dissolutions or where suddenlythat default mode network shut
down and you can see everythingtotally different.
It's not necessarily whathappened on mdma and you don't
tend to have hallucinations oranything like that.
You're more present with MDMA,which is why it can be good in
that context, as people can thenstill actually communicate,

(57:31):
which can be very difficult.
If you're on psilocybin, magicmushrooms, right, you're
normally not in a state whereyou can communicate well with
others.
On MDMA you can.
What MDMA does is that whencouples come in and they're
really struggling, their fearresponse is heightened.
They're now seeing their partneras a threat, right, meaning
it's very difficult to getthrough to each other.

(57:51):
When you're perceiving theother one as being a threat,
right, it's very hard to heareach other.
What MDMA does is it lower theamygdala.
It really shuts down thatresponse, which is the fear
response, right, and suddenly itbecomes possible to hear each
other in a way that has almostbeen impossible to.
For suddenly somebody who avery avoidant person, who'd

(58:12):
never been able to say anythingvulnerable can suddenly express
their emotions, reallyvulnerable, and suddenly what it
does is it doesn't fixeverything, but it suddenly give
people a felt experience again,not a cognitive thought, but a
felt experience.
This is too, and we did thisand we were okay, and that
creates a framework for how theycan do things differently.

(58:34):
It doesn't mean people shouldcontinue to take MDMA right, it
shouldn't be a substitute tomake the relationship work, but
it's just a gateway where themind again has been so stuck
right To see, actually this ispossible too.

Speaker 1 (58:48):
Thank you for sharing that, and can you just you know
talk about some of the risksand what people need to think
about or consider beforeembarking on a psychedelic
experience?

Speaker 2 (58:59):
And this is a great question and, of course, the
different compounds havedifferent safety profiles.
I think, overall, psychedelicsare really really safe and
that's what the research hasshown us, done in the right way,
the right set and setting.
However, that doesn't mean harmcan't happen.
So MDMA, like we talked aboutbefore, can cause change in

(59:21):
temperature, for example.
But it's important to say thatthe people who tend to be harmed
are primarily either they mixthings up, meaning they mix with
different compounds thatshouldn't be mixed, maybe
they're out taking alcohol andthen take mdma.
So there are certain mixturesthat certainly can be dangerous,
right, and and we have hadpeople dying from that it's very

(59:43):
rare, but it has happened soit's when people do these things
very not carefully, right.
So there's a physiological riskin people taking MDMA.
They might go out, they danceagain.
When people do it not in a veryconscious way and they forget
to drink water, that has alsocaused, again, not many, but a
few deaths, right.
Or people drink too much.
So this is again tend to bewhen people do it in an unsafe

(01:00:05):
setting, right.
These are not meant to be takenas something that you go out
and just do a party with, eventhough that's primarily where
they become used and that's alsowhat then happened when they
became illegal.
Right, even though they canhave huge potential therapeutic
benefits, but done in a safesetting, it's extremely risk or
safe.
So if we look at magic mushroompsilocybin, there had not been

(01:00:28):
a single reported case of peopledying from taking psilocybin.
It's almost impossible tooverdose.
You'll get sick just fromeating before you can overdose.
However, there's a risk ofpsychological harm, right, and
that is definitely real.
So you know, with some verystrong, strong compounds, like
what part of the activeingredients in ayahuasca is

(01:00:48):
called dmt.
People smoke dmt and it canliterally in 15 seconds so
quickly skyrocket into adifferent universe, almost like
you are god in in right, andthat can be so overwhelming for
people and especially done in anunsafe setting, like out in a
party and you have nointegration, you don't know what
to expect.
That can be harmful and thatcan take.

(01:01:10):
Sometimes I heard stories andeven a friend who took years to
come back, but it's because it'sdone in frankly stupid ways.
It is really stupid to do it inthis way.
It's not done in a safe way.
Psilocybin again very safe ifdone in the right way.
In the research studies.
I think out of was it 25 000,but however many, there's been
thousands of participants andthere was one person one person

(01:01:34):
who had a very adversepsychological, but the other
ones showed, you know, fantasticbenefits.
And that's because it's done ina really safe way.
There's a preparation phase.
They tell people what to expect.
They build trust with thetherapists that are going to be
there.
Normally there's a preparationphase.
They tell people what to expect.
They build trust with thetherapists that are going to be
there.
Normally there's two therapistspresent, a man and a woman of
each gender.
Right, they prepare specificmusic.

(01:01:55):
It's not done with any otherpeople around or unsafe elements
.
Right, they make sure thateverything is there snacks,
water, everything that'srequired.
Right, they're literallysitting there just to help you.
That's their only task.
And also, psilocybin comes on abit slower, so it takes about.
It's not like smoking DMT.
It takes about half an hour toan hour.

(01:02:16):
So that means it's a slow,gradual.
It doesn't just send you in tocomplete obliviation, right.
And again then they providetherapy as well afterwards,
right, so afterwards you're notleft alone, maybe struggling to
make sense of what happened,because it can be overwhelming
on higher doses to suddenly losea sense of identity.
That can certainly be scary.

(01:02:36):
Right, it has a possibility torestructure your personality.
And I think people should alwaysask is the benefit bigger than
the potential risk with anythingthey do?
Right, and I would always sayeven in places where it's legal
and people can do that, askyourself first is there other
ways I could do that?
I remember I had someone, afriend, a female friend come and

(01:02:59):
say oh Thomas, I had thisbreakup, I'm feeling really bad.
He just broke up a week ago.
I'm feeling a bit sad.
Should I take psychedelics?
I said absolutely not.
Grieving a long-term partner isa healthy response and it's a
natural process.
Psychedelic isn't meant to beused to disassociate or not feel
right or not go through naturalprocesses.

(01:03:22):
So that was not an adequateplace to use psychedelics.
And I would normally say haveyou tried other things?
Have you tried therapy?
Have you tried X, y and Z?
And if people come to a placewhere they really haven't, there
is no other way out for themand they're in severe distress,
then it might be something worthconsidering.
Right, because the benefitprobably is much higher at that

(01:03:43):
stage than the potential risk atthat stage and the potential
risk.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
Thank you, I feel like that was a great barometer
that you set out there.
You know, do the risks outweighthe benefits or the benefits
outweigh the risks?
Doing research, making sureyou're in the right environment
with the right practitioner andalso, you know, not just taking
it to numb yourself, becauseyou're probably going to feel a
lot more when you takepsychedelics.

(01:04:11):
So thank you for that.
That's very interesting.
I want to ask you about yourpodcast Exploring Humanity.
Why did you create it and whatis it about?

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
So the podcast is primarily about well, I guess in
the title, exploring the humanexperience, right is primarily
about, well, I guess, in thetitle, exploring the human
experience, right, and it'slooking at the different
elements of how we experience aworld and, more importantly, how
we as humans process what weexperience, because that had
always really really fascinatedme.
Because we never experiencewhat is.
We experience theinterpretation of what is, even

(01:04:45):
the construct of color.
They're just different spectrumof light.
But color only exists andhappens when it gets interpreted
right For the lens of your eyeand for your brain.
Your visual spectrum thencreates it into different colors
, right, same with smell.
So it's a brain that create theconstruct of what this is, but
it's also the brain that limitswhat we can experience in this

(01:05:08):
construct right, because we areonly allowed to experience with
the the limitation of the sensesthat we have.
So I think once we understandhow we process the world, it
becomes much easier to not be sorigid in how we interpret the
world and actually recognizingthat the way we see the world
might not be the correct way.
And that's also a beautiful waythat I've seen through

(01:05:30):
psychedelics and that I exploreon the podcast is this
flexibility of mind what theycategorize.
They call it openness Meaning Inoticed after my psychedelic
experience I became so much moreopen to other people's
perspective before I would getquite oh, I know better, I'm the
expert and I didn't like whenpeople didn't have the same
opinion.
Now it doesn't bother meanymore.

(01:05:52):
Right, and that's something Ireally noticed changed after my
psychedelic experience, thissense of openness.
So I think the podcast isreally about that understanding.
How do we process thisexperience?

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
we call life, and what impact does that have on us
?
That's beautiful.
I think you're definitelyspeaking my language and you
know I'm really a big believerthat we all have a piece to the
puzzle, a piece of the truth,but not the whole truth.
And to your point about thedifferent color spectrums and
how we see it and how our braininterprets it, someone could be

(01:06:28):
looking at the same type of bluebut see a completely different
shade, or a shade that we maynot have any sort of perception
of.
So it's very interesting tokind of see how everyone else is
viewing their own reality right, because we're all on the same
earth but we have differentperceptions of our day-to-day

(01:06:52):
lives, which is very fascinatingand kind of takes me out of
this black and white sort ofthinking.
I feel like there's so much gray, and the gray is in the shared
experiences other people havethat we are not able to, or the
experiences other people havethat we are not able to, or the
experiences other people havethat we're not able to perceive.
So that's really amazing.

(01:07:12):
That's beautiful.
You've dropped so much wisdomthroughout the podcast, but I
always have to ask for finalwords of wisdom to the listeners
.
It could be about everythingwe've been talking about.
It could be related to that orsomething completely different
that you kind of keep in yourback pocket.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
I think it would be the acknowledgement and
acceptance that we need otherhumans.
We live in a world that glorifyindividuality, but it's not how
we were meant to function andthat's why so many people are
not functioning well andstruggling, accepting that it's
okay to need others and it'sactually how we are wired.

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
Beautiful.
Where can people find you ifthey want to learn more about
your work, if they want to workwith you or if they want to
listen to your podcast?

Speaker 2 (01:08:02):
Of course, we can probably put the links in the
description, because there's afew different ones right.
So I do so much.
I do my ecstatic dances, I domy therapy, couples therapy
that's a podcast.
There'spsychedelicmedicineearth, which
is if people want informationaround that.
So you know, maybe we put thelinks and people can just go to
check out whatever they'reinterested in.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
Absolutely.
I'm going to put all of thelinks to your websites and
social media handles in the shownotes for people to check out.
But, thomas, thank you so muchfor stopping by the show.
This was an amazingconversation.
It's been my pleasure and greatquestions that you asked, by the
way, at A Word to the Wise Pod,we're also on YouTube at A Word

(01:08:46):
to the Wise Podcast.
Please be sure to subscribe Ifyou are enjoying the show.
Please rate, leave a review,share and subscribe wherever you
listen to podcasts.
Till next time, peace and love,always, always, always.