S2:E2 The Triumph of Black Motherhood: Prisons, Pews, and Protests

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When the weight of societal judgment weighs on the shoulders of Black mothers, where can they turn for solace and strength? Our latest conversation with Reverend Dr. Najuma Smith Pollard tackles this piercing question, unwrapping layers of faith interlaced with the fabric of social justice. A legacy passed down from her activist grandparents, Reverend Najuma's life is a testament to the power of education and awareness in challenging systemic injustices. We uncover the raw realities of Black motherhood, the criminalization of poverty, and the untold stories of resilience that redefine the narrative of struggle into one of indomitable spirit. Rev. Najuma vulnerably shares her personal story with the stigma and shame of survival as a single poor Black mother that led to incarceration and how her resilience is a source of an unlawful salvation that fuels her faith as a social justice leader and Pastor.

The echoes of the gospel's call for liberation frame our dynamic discussion, as we untangle the sanitized interpretations that strip the Bible of its social justice roots. Reverend Najuma's insights as a pastor and community leader spotlight the church's pivotal role in advocating for the marginalized, serving as the hands and feet of a faith that demands action against oppression. We share our own encounters with systemic barriers and the psychological toll they exact on those fighting to provide for their families, while also casting a vision of hope through communal support and empowerment strategies.

As a beacon leading towards the intersection of faith and justice, this episode is an invitation to join hands with movements reshaping the future of black and brown communities. Witness the transformative power of solidarity as we reflect on our experiences, from the painful loss of loved ones to the triumph of breaking cycles of poverty. We leave listeners with actionable steps, urging them to engage with social justice initiatives that resonate, educate themselves on the systemic challenges, and embrace the communal vision of thriving and justice for all.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast,
where we bring you leadingvoices, confronting issues, and
interventions at theintersections of faith,
abolition, and black motherhood.
Our vision is to build a faithbased abolitionist movement and
we invite you our listeners tosupport and join our coalition.
Abilition is sanctuary is anonprofit organization that

(00:27):
provides public education andcertified training to faith
communities, civic organizations, educational institutions, and
individuals who aim to organizeagainst the moral crisis of mass
incarceration and thecriminalization of impoverished
black motherhood.
I am your host, reverend doctor, Nikias Smith Robert, the

(00:49):
executive direct of abolitionistSanctuary.
You can follow me at Nikea sRobert and at abolitionist
Sanctuary on in Instagram,Facebook and Twitter.
You can also sign up forexclusive updates, donate, and
support us at w w w dotabolitionist sanctuary dot org.

(01:09):
I am thrilled to be joined withour guest, reverend, doctor
Najuma Smith Polard, pastor ofWord encouragement Church and
assistant director of communityand public engagement with the

(01:33):
University of SouthernCalifornia Center for Religion
and Civic Culture, where shealso leads programming for the
CSO Murray Center of Communityengagement.
Hello, Dr.
Najuma?

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Hey, Dr.
Najeeah.
Glad to be on with you today.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
I'm so glad that you're here with us.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
That to be here as well.
Thank you so very much.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Can you share with us your pronouns, describe what
you look like, and introduceyourself?

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Sure.
My pronouns are she and her.
And what do I look like?
That's a great question.
I don't often have to describemy So I would say I am
definitely a brow skin,beautiful, system with pink

(02:20):
blacks and and I love whitecolors and Yeah.
I I today, I'm wearing brightyellow and white.
Some are real bright individual.
Like, there's not much Youalways I'm always standing out
in the crowd.
And and the way I introducemyself as, typically, as

(02:42):
Reverend Najuma, sometimesReverend Jude depending on the
setting.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
Would you like for me to call you Reverend Jude on
this interview?

Speaker 2 (02:51):
It whatever feels natural for you, revampoon or
revampoonoon.
I typically use revampoonoon ifpeople are having a hard time
saying, medumpa.
So it is really And somebodywould say, dude, dude, dude just
because we're friends like that.
So whatever is stillcomfortable for you, I I'm good.
Well, I'm excited because Ihave the privilege of knowing
you as my dear Reverend's sister

Speaker 1 (03:14):
and birth dates when we share this thing with her
face on January eighteenth.
Yeah.
And so you are both my prayingpartner and my stepping sister.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yes.
And that's a blessing.
That's a blessing.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
Indeed.
And so I know you as a pastoras a professional and as a
parent.
Can you describe your faithjourney and how it has evolved
to center social justice?

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Thank you for that.
Absolutely.
So my journey with socialjustice and faith really goes
back to a little kid.
I was even though I was when myI come out of a single parent
home, but my mother had I spenta lot of time with my
grandmother and my grandfatherbecause my mom worked And there

(04:05):
were times when she was workingthe night shift and then
sometimes the day shift.
So this is my grandparents alot.
Both of whom were very activein their churches.
In addition, they were alsovery active socially.
So my grandmother worked atKetrin.
And there was always some youngkid from Ketrin if you're not

(04:26):
familiar for your listeners whoare not familiar with Ketrin.
Kedron is the local it's alocal LA.
Well, it's probably not localjust to LA, but it's at the what
I for what I knew at that time.
It was a place for mentalhealth services and other
services for the hood, for theneighborhood.

(04:46):
Right?
So my grandmother always hadsomebody's kid with her who was
challenged to a degree in theirmental health.
Some of it was just behavioralhealth, but and she was always,
like, feeding and closing.
And we spent a lot of time atchurch where she did that kind

(05:06):
of work.
And then my grandfather, he wasthe activist at his church.
You know, he was very muchengaged.
He on second Baptist, which,you know, for those who are not
familiar, second Baptist is oneof the oldest black churches in
LA.
But historical pastors likepastor Kil Thomas Kilgore and
still pastor pastor pastorpastor Ed.

(05:28):
Both of whom centers, socialjustice, and all of their
preaching.
It's, you know, king, doctorMarmsley King came there a
couple times and other you know,social justice activists and
civil rights leaders camethrough second batches.
So my grandfather was thatpassed, you know, that not
passed away with that churchmember.

(05:50):
Right?
He was fully engaged in worship, but also fully engaged in
whatever his church was doingsocially.
And I hung with them both a lot.
And so for me, it was just apart of my growing up.
It was what I was exposed toand my grandfather was a
storyteller type.
So he was always shared with meas a as a kid stories about

(06:10):
what it was like to go up in youknow, the racist south and his
experiences and why wasimportant.
We got our what what he called,get you lesson, meaning go to
school, get good grades, youknow, and be be aware, you know,
he taught me to to justunderstand what's happening in
life.
So that's so that's where itbegins for me is that time with

(06:33):
my grandparents.
And then when I turnedseventeen, I was brought to this
first family church by my aunt.
And my first Sunday there, Ijoined.
It was pastor Mary's preachingwas just really it it resonates
where I was at the time at seventeam coming out of high school.

(06:53):
And and, you know, at that timefame was was starting to really
bustle.
And I got really engaged withall of the programming to
include social justice concernscommittee, to include missionary
department, the youth youthdepartment in Sunday school.

(07:14):
And so it's it's always been apart of my you know, essence, I
guess, if you will.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
And then later, at some point,my mother share with me that she
was a black Panther for a shorttime.
And I know my father was verypro black coming out of Vietnam,

(07:34):
which is why I had the nameMadula because he wanted to make
sure I had an African name.
Right?
You know, so it was havingthose parents and grandparents
that were very clear about theirblackness.
And Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
That's that's really good.
Thank you for sharing that.
By the way, what does Najumasstand for?
What does it say?

Speaker 2 (07:52):
So so my full name is Domalene Najumas, beautiful
vision abounding in joy.
It's a swahili name, but Najumis also Arabic.
So when I traveled to Morocco,In Turkey, they pronounced it
Najima.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
Excellent.
And it had a same meaning or adifferent meaning?

Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah.
A star, bright a bright lightstart and beautiful vision.
Yep.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Excellent.
Well, thank you for sharingyour faith journey and how
social justice is at the centerof it, but also community and
the ways in which generationsare connected through struggle
and this kind of hope forfreedom.
Yeah.
That is so central to the blackchurch that we see through Dr.
King, we see through yourgrandparents, and the pastors

(08:37):
that you mentioned.
Yeah.
And I think about, you know,all the things that are
happening in our world and ournation particularly one of the
major issues that we have seenis with so many mass shootings
and churches and supermarketsand schools can you tell me how
you engage your faith to respondto these socio issues,

(08:59):
particularly the issue of gunviolence and state violence in
black communities.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, so I think the first thing is being clear as a
as a pastor that even if thosethings aren't happening in my
church or my neighborhood, thatI cannot preach around them.
Right?
So I don't think I don't thinkI have any members who would

(09:26):
demand a sermon or anacknowledgment of the violence,
the gun violence, the shootings.
But I also recognize that Ithat's not healthy for me to
preach around most things and toact like just because it's not
happening here, we don't have toaddress it.
So that's that's the firstthing is to be be mindful to be

(09:47):
thoughtful around what'shappening in communities.
And that may not necessarily beright at our door in the moment
.
So that's one thing, but alsoto encourage our members to show
up where they can.
You know, we just here had asyou know, Monday, we had and
interface vigil.
And so those are spaces thateven if it's not happening at

(10:11):
your home or in your space,those are places we could show
up and be in solidarity becauseit really does means I didn't,
you know, for a long time in aqueue, I didn't I didn't really
get hold that whole stand insouth of Derrick.
Like, what does that mean?
So I had to learn the meaningof what it meant.
Like, you know, what's thewhat's the relevance of standing
in solidarity?

(10:31):
And it's really about voice andnumbers And sometimes it it
only feels like work the workthat you're doing is only
effective if you're making, like, a tangible difference that you
can see.
And what I've had to learn isthat presence and voice giving

(10:53):
voice to a thing, whether I'm onthe East Coast and no problems
on the West Coast or vice versareally in our case.
Giving voice, giving space, allof that collective energy leads
to change.
Over time, of course, but allof it's important.
So those are those are thingsthat people can do.

(11:15):
Right?
They can stand in solidaritybut also being engaged in the
third piece, which is beingengaged in conversations for
change.
Right?
So, you know, working with theDA's office in his faith based
council, you know, working withBLM and pushing helping to push

(11:37):
the people's budget.
Like, these are tangible thingswe can do in addition to voting
.
There are places we canactually show up and actually do
work that leads to changes.
And so we're depend and itdoesn't matter where you stand
on the gun by gun issue.
That's not really the case.
It's about being present at theissues that are important to

(11:59):
you as an individual.
So for your for everyone that'slistening or watching the
podcast, it's like gun violencemay or may not be your issue.
To.
It may not be a thing that youfeel called to, but whatever it
is, that is your issue or youfeel called to pray about it, do
the spiritual thing, do thecommunal thing which is be
president vigils andconversations, but also take

(12:22):
part in action.
Right?
Like, take part in action.
And so for me, being part ofthe vigil on Monday as we lifted
up the issue of go violence wasimportant.
And then also continue to workwith here locally like our DA's
office and some of the thingsthat his progressive agenda is
trying to do you know, as itrelates to how violence is dealt

(12:46):
with here in Los Angeles, inparticular, South LA, that
disproportionately affects blackand brown families.
So those are the three things Ithink, yeah, That's how I
that's how I I engage in thosethree ways.

Speaker 1 (13:01):
Thank you for sharing that and really emphasizing the
importance of coalitionbuilding.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
And and the church's role and responsibility to show
up for the community Right.
In ways that is consonant withthe gospel message of liberation
.
Right, what we're called to doas followers of Jesus for those
who believe.
Right.
Right?
And how the the church hasalways been a hub of a center

(13:27):
for political action in waysthat advocated for the
liberation of the blackcommunity.
So Yeah.
Thank you for for your role.
And and

Speaker 2 (13:37):
and I and I I just wanna add this one little piece.
And what we often mistake aboutthe gospel itself is that it's
not a social justice gospel.
But it absolutely is.
And again, everybody doesn'tknow this.
This is something I had tolearn as I you know, you and I
both as we've matriculatethrough the, you know, the

(13:57):
academics of preaching plus justbeing, you know, being engaged
with with educating ourselvesand being educated and so on and
so forth.
The whole gospel, the wholebible is a social just this
document.
Right?
Because every era of the of thebible is written under some

(14:19):
kind of oppressive governmentalrule.
And when people when I tellpeople that and I explain to
them, like, there's not therelike, the bible was not written.
In the way that we often hearsanitize, like, it's somehow the
writers wrote during times ofgreat peace and joy, happiness,

(14:43):
and everybody was sayingkumbayana, a whole bible from
Genesis to Revelation.
Is there is an oppressive rule.
And and so everything about thetext is social justice.
And, you know, I mean, it'sspiritual and it's all about
social justice because thepeople were constantly under

(15:05):
oppressive rule.
And so yeah.
So, I mean, I think that's oneof the things that why it's
important for churches isbecause the very gospel that we
preach and teach from is asocial justice document.
And people just tend to look atit very sanitized as if God
just want us to come togetherand sink goodbye.

(15:26):
Yeah.
No.
No.
The the bible actually reallyaddresses some major issues.
And maybe God violence wasn'tthe issue.
You know, during the time ofjudges, but people were being
oppressed.
You know?
Girls are being marginalized.
And boys were being takenadvantage of.
And there were all kinds of,you know, social justice things

(15:48):
happening around widows andorphans.
And, you know, so once peopleso that's one of the things I
try to teach my church is, like,it's a social justice document.
In addition to being a veryspiritual document.
So that's enough on that.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
No.
That's really good.
Right?
That we have a responsibilityto read the bible and it's
context, absolute abundance ofways in which it is connected to
social context.
Yeah.
And that the the bible isn'tnot ahistorical.
Right?
It's not apolitical.
But it is speaking to politicaltimes.
In fact, it was the RomanEmpire that persecuted Jesus

(16:25):
price and similarly to the waysin which black and brown bodies
are persecuted by the culturalstate.
And so to under than the waysin which Christianity is
complicit in these mechanisms ofpunishment that resulted in a
state sanctioned executionagainst the savior.
We you know, the very man, weprofessor savior

Speaker 2 (16:45):
Right.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
To under we have to understand that in order to
under stand the ways in whichblack and brown bodies are being
persecuted today in the UScultural state.
And when we make thoseconnections, then it should
compel us Right.
To engage and and and you know,movements for social justice.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
And I and so yeah.
So I think the the disadvantageis in this in modern days, in
modern times, The Bible has beenone I think there have been
systems and people who who wantto sanitize.
The gospel.
So it appears to be a documentabout good people being good and
that there are a few bad applesin the world when really it's

(17:30):
it's deeper than that.
And and I I think it'simportant that people impact
that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Absolutely.
And and and to be honest thatthis narrative of good and bad,
worthy and unworthy, deservingand unserving, has been harmful.
Yes.
Right?
Particularly for women.
Yeah.
And for black and brown people.
And in fact, we are all createdin the image of God.
Right?
In the Amago Day God called Allof Creation Good.

(17:58):
And so understanding that.
And I just wanted to say, asyou talked about the Bible as a
social gospel book, ourlisteners can check out Walter
Rouskin Bush's book on thesocial gospel as well as Gary
and Dorian who does some work onthe black social gospel and the

(18:18):
ways in which thinkers andpreachers such as WWE Beat The
Boyse and Doctor King are kindof demonstrating what that
social gospel looks like in reallife.
Right.
So thank you.
Thank you for that, Dr.
Nejima.
Could you share, you know, justgonna shift lens a minute, as

(18:39):
you know, publishing sanctuariesand nonprofit organization that
focuses on the criminalizationof poor black mothers.

Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Can you share your experience?
You mentioned a bit of your momgrowing up and impoverished and
how the community was centralfor you and your survival.
Can you talk about kind of therole of black mothers as sole
providers for their families andsome of the challenges you may
face and how that might relateto the ways in which poor black

(19:09):
mother survival strategies arecriminalized by the U.
S.
Cultural state.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
Right.
So I was raised by a singleblack mother.
My father, my mother separatedsplit up, you know, and I was
really probably I don't evenknow if I was too yet.
And no shade to my dad, it justit just was what it was.
And I don't I don't even knowthe details of their separation.
It happened so long ago that bythe time I was of age to to
know they both had moved on.

(19:35):
But But I what you know, my momand and, like, I didn't know it
then, but, you know, my mom weweren't poor.
My mother wasn't poor, I'm justsaying, because, you know, I
was I didn't admit.
But my mother wasn't poor.
She just worked hard, but shehad to work hard so that we
would we wouldn't be poor.

(19:55):
Right?
She had to work the night shiftand sometimes the day shift.
She had to pull in the extrayou know, the extra hours so we
can have what we have.
But my mother also had a reallycool strategy, which is
everything we had came fromGoogle.
So I tell people Like, I andand I don't say it in, like, a
negative way because you didn'tknow most of what I had came

(20:17):
from a salvage norm.
But me and my mother at theservice, not me, every other
weekend, if not every weekend.
So she had a strategy.
Right?
She we didn't shop at the mallmuch.
We didn't buy she didn't buy alot of brand new stuff, you know
.
A lot of stuff was wassecondhand.
And I'm gonna say, we never gotnew stuff.

(20:38):
It just wasn't her strategy.
And that allowed her to do morewith what she has, so I could
have more and see moreexperience more.
So because my mother was frugalin one area, it allowed for
other opportunities.
So I didn't miss out.
But I just I just know now, youknow, at that time I was a kid,
so I didn't I just thought thatwas life.

(21:00):
But now as an adult, you know,once I became an adult, I'm a
bad card, it reflects it.
I understand I'm gonna have astrategy.
Like, I'm not gonna spend a lotof money eating out.
We're not gonna spend a lot ofmoney on stuff.
We're not gonna spend a lot ofmoney on clothes in the latest
and greatest, not that we didn'thave, but she shifted the use
of her money with her dollars sothat I could do other things

(21:23):
like travel with her.
We could do other things likego to museums.
We could do other things likebe exposed to stuff that would
help me develop mentally and,you know, intellectually.
And so that was her strategy.
And and in hindsight, I see itnow.
I see it, you know, I saw it asI grew up got older.

(21:44):
Back then, I just thoughtthat's just how life was.
And I thought everybody'sshopping at a salvage moment, so
I found out everybody doesn'tshop at the salvage army.
But it's okay, you know,because she was even good about
that.
Wasn't it was hammering down,but it wasn't raggedy, you know.
So so that's that's that's whatI pulled most of, like, the

(22:05):
being raised by a single blackmother is how she had to be very
strategic with her dollars, andhow she had to make huge
sacrifices so I could have a lotof opportunities and
experiences.
And I'm I'm like that with mykids now and have always been,
you know, understanding like youmake sacrifices.

(22:26):
The the challenge was when Ihad my person, things were
different by that time.
Right?
So rent was more cost more.
And so and then Daniel's fatherwas prison, my well, the son's
father was prison.
When he was just a baby.

(22:47):
So I was I was left, like, asingle mom.
And then I got hit withunemployment because company I
was working for moved out ofstate.
And so there was a lot ofchanges happening in the
nineties.
That's when I had my first son.
And I found myself needing togo on WIC and what'd you call

(23:12):
that federal assistance?
And I remember my first daygoing down to the building.
In Santa Monica to get federalassistance because I just
couldn't make the ends meet.
Right?
And and feeling like this issome BS.
Like, this is some nonsense.

(23:33):
What am I doing here?
But I was there like all theother mothers were there because
I needed it.
I needed the help.
But I will say this aboutfederal assistance, offices,
It's a crime sharing how theyhave those places set up for
mothers.
They don't have us, you know,you gotta you gotta bring your

(23:53):
kids.
That's first a problem.
And you gotta bring your kids,but then they don't keep they
don't have a there's no steviafor my children.
Right?
Because you know, So you gotthis this room full of mothers
and kids, no adequate chairs, noadequate seating, no space for
kids.
Now all offices aren't likethat.
I've actually been in adifferent office with some

(24:14):
because of the staff.
They put in a little personaltouch, but in the way of the
whole process of getting onfederal assistance.
It was just very humiliating.
And embarrassing.
And and then they, you know,then they started with all these

(24:35):
rules.
Yes, and regulations.
And it was probably the hardesttime in my life.
And I was only on I wasn't onit.
I I didn't do the long termplan.
I did the I did the short termplan.
What I mean by that is I I wasonly on it for about four and a
half years.
But I was so grateful whenthings were able to turn around

(24:58):
for me with work and school thatI could get off of federal
assistance.
You know, and I had to moveinto a single apartment and, you
know, you had to move to asingle apartment that would take
, you know, my income level.
Right?
So it wasn't the best apartmentbuilding.

(25:20):
Right?
It we had we had we had roadchecks, you know.
My son's bedroom, when he was ababy, was the kitchen.
I I was I cleverly put a littlespot in the kitchen, made it
hit there.
He didn't know.
He didn't know it was a bed hedidn't know it was a kitchen.
He thought it was his bedroom.
Because he was a baby.
And and and and and, thankfully, we were able to move out of

(25:40):
there before he got older torecognize what was really
happening.
But it was tough.
It was tough in the keynoteline.
It was tough.
It was and I had to make somechoice.
Like, I had to do some, youknow, It was a tough time.
I did not explain it all.
But, you know, there were timesI didn't have money for

Speaker 1 (26:03):
diapers.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
Take your time, Seth.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
So, you know, you had to make some choices for some
things.
Right?
And I remember I will I and Iremember this one part season
out.
I have I was I did finally geta job, and But at the time, when

(26:36):
I got the job before I got thejob, I had tickets.
And and one of them obviouslyhad turned to a warrant because
I had the money to pay for itMhmm.
And getting stopped and off Iwas like, oh, we got to take him
in because it's a warrant.
And I was like, sir, please.
This is out.

(26:56):
You can take the keys and thecar.
But I gotta get my baby fromdaycare.
And he wouldn't let me go.
And and have him call it a daycare provider from inside of

(27:18):
jail because he only gave me aphone call.
And and I'm gonna tell a daycare provider, can you call my
mom to get my that was rough.

(27:39):
Yeah.
That was rough.
Yeah.
Because I didn't have fifteenhundred dollars to pay the
ticket.
And there was just no and we'relike there's no other option.
You gotta do this incarceration.
And and just nobody hearing,like, but I got a kid that's

(28:03):
that day care.
Like, do you not understandwhat I'm telling you?
And and his father, Tom, wasincarcerated.
And so when I think about momswho have to leave their, you
know, a lot of moms got to leavetheir kids.
I had to leave my kid atdaycare.
And I mean, you know, he was ata decent daycare, but still,

(28:27):
like, just having to go throughthat.
So that was rough, you know.
That was that was rough.
It was a rough time.
But there was no sympathy, noempathy, no well, what
combinations can we make forthis mom?
For a kid.
How do we ensure the kid isgonna be safe?

(28:48):
Like, they didn't know if mykid was gonna be safe or not.
If I didn't come pick him up,and they didn't care.
That was the part that was,like, I was pleased with people.
Like, please, like, and there'sno no accommodation.
And It's a lot of women outthere that the kid you know this

(29:11):
because you study this work.
It's a lot of women out therewhose kids are left very
vulnerable over fifteen hundreddollars.
Mhmm.
You know what I'm saying overtickets, over and yes, it's to
be and remember this one time,this one officer.
He was like, well, you shouldpay your stuff sometimes, like,
listen, man.
You don't know me.
You don't know my story.

(29:32):
You don't know why I didn't pay, what I didn't pay.
Don't judge me because youdon't and I had to go off on the
side, like, you don't know me.
You don't judge me.
You don't know what I've beenthrough.
You don't know my story.
You don't know anything aboutwhen you're making a judgment
call.
And he kinda was like, well,I'm just saying, I just went,
don't say nothing.
And I just kinda went off onbecause he got in his, like, you
know, in his you know, and yeah.

(29:55):
I mean, of course, don't youknow, of course, I know just pay
it.
But if I got the money to payit, and that the system is not
set up to work with my budgetand work with my where I am.
And so a lot of stuff there's alot of people in jail because
they just didn't have a budgetfor whatever, not because

(30:16):
they're criminals.
You know, saying that becausethey're they're trying to if
there's more people out therethat leaky eye say this, it's
more women that admit.
Who who would gladly pay thesetickets and whatever else is out
there, whatever otherchallenges.
But, you know, life happens toeverybody and learn it can be

(30:36):
hard.
And if you don't have it and somuch about the colonization.
Right?
It's like, you are here doingthe best you can and not paying
something simple like a ticketor not getting your tags on time
could cause a mother to beseparate from her kids and
nobody cares if those kids mayor may not be vulnerable to some

(30:57):
other nonsense.
You know, saying, like, Yeah.
I'm a police officer one timeleft me and my baby on the side
of the road impounded my car.
It was a middle of the night.
I was like, so you just calledIn a pound mark, he was like,
well, you better call somebody.
So it's just like this wholeknow it would be, and the system

(31:19):
is not set up to care.
Yes.
And clearly, I wasn't the timeof my life where I wasn't a
hundred being responsible.
And I'm not making excuses forthat.
I'm just saying, like, if Icould have done better, come on.
Of course, I would have donebetter.
If I had a better circumstance,of course, I'd be in a better
circumstance, but that's notwhat it was.

(31:41):
And everybody you know, Iwouldn't give you the tools.
I didn't know certain things atthat time.
So and there's a lot of mothersand children suffering because
they just don't have tools.
They don't have information.
They don't have access.
And so but their vulnerabilityand the bug of their children

(32:04):
The system doesn't care.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah.
It says thank you so much forsharing your story, and I just
want to give you all your propsand flowers or how you made a
way out of no way for your babyand how you are here to tell the
story.
As a survivor as a champion.
You made it, girl.
You did it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we give god we give godpraise for you, so thank you so

(32:29):
much.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
I'm emotional because , you know, Daniel, I tell
people I talked to Daniel was mystruggle kid.
Like, unfortunately, he was thekid that had to go a mom and do
her struggles.
You know, so to lose him, soearly in his life, and to not
for him, not to not to help himdo great things that I would
able to do at twenty five andtwenty six and twenty seven.

(32:50):
So it's emotional for mebecause he was also my troubled
kid and the one that we lost intwenty eighteen.
So I wish I could have givenhim a better, beginning.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah.
And that's a lot to carry this.
So a lot to carry it, but yougave him so much.
You gave him love.
You've given him your you know,you gave him god.
You gave him so much.
And I know he if he was heretoday, he would kiss you and say
thank you, madam.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
Absolutely.
He was a grateful kid.
But, you know, yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
And for those of you, Dr.
Najuma lost her son to gunviolence in two thousand and
eighteen.
And we continue to carryDaniel's memory with us as he is
now your guardian angelwatching over you.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yep.
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
So John McReynolds has this song called cycles.
And as you were speaking, Icould just hear it.
Cycles.
And I'm thinking about the waysin which and and I just want to
, you know, full disclosure thatI know much of what you're
speaking about, not only throughresearch, but through our

(34:14):
shared experience, right, whereI also grew up to a single poor
black mother who had my brotherat the age of fifteen and he was
her troubled child and is alsoso was also just this impacted
and served federal time.
And so with that and growing upin Harlem, New York at the
height of that warn drugs andthe crack era, all of that

(34:38):
struggle was very much a part ofmy story.
Right?
A part of my survival story.
But what really resonated withme is as you talked about your
experience, you know, thatversus your mother's experience
with poverty and how your mommade sacrifices to give you

(34:58):
better opportunities andexposure through museums and
trips that gave you a good headstart in life.
And and then you mentioned thatlife happens.
Right?
Their life happens beyond ourcontrol, and life happens for
you in ways in which that cycleof poverty circled back around

(35:18):
and it became a part of yourstory.
And and particularly, well faresystem, the welfare system.
You talked about howhumiliating and degradating that
that system is, how it it robspeople of their human dignity
that it is not designed to honorthe agency of poor black

(35:39):
mothers who are showing up inthat office to rightfully
receive government interventionbecause the system is stacked up
against us in such a way thatit is not designed for us to
flourish in.
Right?
Yeah.
And and you, you know, touchedabout touched upon this
criminalization of poverty right, how a fifteen hundred dollar

(36:01):
ticket shouldn't be kind of thethe cause of a mother being
separated from their child andthe ways in which there's the
collateral consequences thatmakes that child vulnerable to
other harms.
Right?
It's these cycles.
Right?
And then you talked about therules in the welfare system, and

(36:22):
how these rules effectivelyfunction as an extension of the
Crossroads State.
Right?
The rules are designed in a waythat it is nearly impossible to
follow them.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
Right?
You yeah.
It's it's impossible to followthem, and it's impossible to
actually thrive.
Like, you actually just have tomake up your mind I'm just
gonna job and get off.
Like, I'm just gonna and andand that's not an easy decision.
Let me say that because whatjob.
Right?
And then if I give up the thethe check, if I went from the

(37:00):
check, then what access do Ihave to to money for childcare?
So it's not people said, well,just get a job.
It's not that it's not thatsimple.
Now I did it, but trust me,like and I just I can say this
before disclosing you When I gotoff AFDC, my kid my son's

(37:22):
babysitter at the time were thenext door neighbor's kids.
I don't know what those kidsdid to my child.
I'm not saying that they didn'tdo better.
I'm just saying, I don't knowwhat happened because I had to,
like, just leave.
It was my only option Icouldn't have at the time, at
that in in that initially, Ididn't have I hadn't have made
enough money to, like, pay forthe child to go up the street.

(37:43):
And remember his dad was inChristmas.
I didn't have help.
I didn't have any help.
I didn't have any help.
And my mother at the time wasliving you know, Northern
California and and she and I atthat time didn't have the best
relation.
That's a whole new story.
But so I didn't have readily Ididn't have help.
I didn't have people say, well,I take care of this, but you

(38:04):
take care of that.
So I had to leave my kid withthe neighbor's kids And every
like, there are times like Ijust prayed.
Like, I'm just praying that mykid was okay.
I don't know what the kids didto my you know what I'm saying?
Like, I don't I don't thinknothing bad at it.
I don't believe that, but, like, the things I had to, like,

(38:25):
worry about, like, man, I hopethey feed him.
How they do this?
How they all you know, and thenyou every day coming on with
checking, are you okay?
Would you eat?
You know?
So So it's not that simple.
I had to make even to get offthe system and and move into
just having the job.
I had to make some initialsacrifices with that, and it

(38:48):
wasn't easy.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
Yeah.
And and, you know, Katie GenevaCannon, who's a woman as
ethicist, talks about how theways in which poor black mothers
face limited options.
Right?
And that is a part of thesystem.
It takes away our options.
And so we have to make ways outof no ways.
Right?

Speaker 2 (39:06):
We You can't you can't you know, well, you know
this.
You cannot this is for yourlisteners.
You cannot beyond federalassistance and have x amount
dollars in your checking account.
What?
So I gotta be I gotta I gottanot only be broke to get on, I
gotta stay broke or at least Igotta stay broke in your mind.
Like, how sick is that?
If you tell a person you can'tdrive financially while you earn

(39:29):
this, But that's the wholepoint.
So I get in a better position,and then I can get off.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
Absolutely.
And so you have No.
And it's it's it's you haveevery right to be frustrated and
you join so many other poorblack mothers who share that
frustration.
Right?
Because This leads to becauseof those limited choices,
because of the systematicstacked up against us, that
makes it nearly impossible tofollow its rules and to thrive

(39:59):
that we are left with makingthese hard decisions between
following their rules ANDBREAKING THE RULES AND BREAKING
THEIR LAWS AND BREAKING THEIRLAWS.
DIDN'T AND MANY AND MANY POURBLACK MOTHER'S to break the
rules and the laws in order tosurvive and provide for their
children against unjust socialconditions.
And so if it means braidinghair in your kitchen while

(40:23):
receiving welfare subsidiesbecause the welfare subsidies
are inadequate, absolutely.
Then people we'll make a wayout of no way.
Right?
And rather than celebrate theingenuity and the courage It
takes to find creative ways tomake multiple streams of income.
Right?
To provide for your family, wecriminalize them.

(40:45):
Yeah.
Because they're not followingrules that aren't set up to
advantage their agency Right.
And their human dignity.
Yeah.
Right?
And so we shared that and thatmy mom also made those tough
decisions between followingrules and laws or breaking them
in order to provide from ourfamily.
And I also share thatexperience where the community

(41:06):
had to kick in when a poor blackmother couldn't afford child
care.
Right?
And and and it's the dangers.
Right?
It's the vulnerability that wesubject children to because we
have limited options.
Right.
And this is a the systemicchallenge.
Absolutely.
Right?
Mhmm.

(41:27):
And it's more Yeah.
I'm talking about, you

Speaker 2 (41:29):
know, mother's next door.
Listen, I I you can't judgethat because sometimes, oh, like
, god is my next door neighbor.
And it may not be the safestsituation, but it's the
situation that's gonna let me goto work and or to the grocery
store or watch to laundromat.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's the part I wanted.
The last part I wanted to kindof extract from what you were
sharing is this judgment that wereceive from society and from
the church Mhmm.
Right?
And from the community Yeah.
You know, this why couldn't youhave just gotten a job?
Why couldn't you have donebetter?

(42:07):
And I heard you say that, youknow, there were some moments
where you felt you were notbeing responsible But that's not
that's not, you know, you'rehuman.
Right?
Like, so, you know, if that'sthe case, a person should have
the space to be irresponsibleand still meet their basic needs

(42:28):
and still be seen as havinghuman worth

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
And dignity by society.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
And you are not alone in responsibility.
So that's a narrative.
That's harmful that we see inthe welfare reform system.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's even called the welfarepersonal responsibility Yeah.
Act as this idea that that poorblack mothers aren't
responsible.
Mhmm.
Right?

Speaker 2 (42:56):
It's not that.
It's like, I mean, You don'talways know the answer.
You don't always know theanswer to your situation.
Like, I didn't know the answer.
To some things.
And you don't know what to youknow, I I text let me let me
explain this way to yourlisteners.
I text a group of people thismorning.

(43:16):
I needed someone of aparticular nationality for a a
thing that we're doing next weekin the office.
And in that group is someonewho's of that nationality.
And the answer was right infront of me.
I just I didn't know.
Right?
I didn't know.
So they text him, like, oh, thegentleman, I'm from such such a
place.
I was like, oh, man.

(43:36):
He was like, and he juststarted laughing.
He's like, you didn't know.
I said, you know, sometimes theanswer is right in front of
your face, but you don't know.
You don't know it is right infront of your face.
And sometimes it's so close,you don't know it.
And so there were just thingsin the Kia.
I know now at fifty, I know nowthat I've had three kids.
But that first kid or thatfirst time, there's some things

(43:57):
I just didn't know.
And there's some things Ididn't know I could do.
There were some things I didn'tknow I had options with this
because the thing that peopledon't realize is not like, let
me say this.
And this is no shade on socialworkers because they're not all
bad people.
It's not like you go in there.
Now there's a that technically,they're supposed to be guiding

(44:19):
you.
But most of the social workersthat I came in contact with and
I know other people go incontact with, they don't give
you guidance.
They don't they're not reallysitting here talking about your
life goals and who you wannabecome.
Well, let me show you thisprogram.
Let me show you steps one, two,and three.
We fill this paperwork out.

(44:39):
Half of them got to add tobecause they don't happen with
their life.
And I can't I'm not I don'twanna cast this net over all
social workers that work in inthese departments, but I'm just
saying the ones I came incontact with and the ones that I
hear a lot of women come incontact with.
Yeah.
And so people think that you godown there and that, like,

(45:00):
there's somebody walking youthrough your life plan.
There isn't.
Anybody in those in thoseoffices walking through a life
plan?
Let me show you your your oneyear plan how to get on and get
off.
And That's that's not what'shappening.
Most and so so you have aperson that goes there who

(45:21):
doesn't already know how to movepast a particular pay space in
their life.
Who and then you run into aperson who's judging you because
you're you're there, you'resingle, you're with a kid,
what's your problem, and theycome up with that attitude.
And then to them, everybody isignorant.
And dumb not knowing that I gota high school diploma and a

(45:44):
college degree, but I still havehad a hard time in my life.
And I'm quite articulate and Ican rewrite, type all those
things that none of that has todo with it.
Right?
But there's no so people needto know, like, these departments
don't offer a life plan to goalong with AFDC and WIC.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and that's what you said.
You said that you weren't giventhe tools and the info and the
the the brutal truth is thatinfo is not intended for us.
We don't have access to it.
In fact, it's hidden from us.
So I want our listeners tocheck out this book not by Karen
Gustafson called cheatingwelfare.
Mhmm.

(46:25):
Talks about the ways in whichmothers are breaking these rules
because they don't even knowwhat the rules are.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
And that's part of the system's moment intention.
Right?
To obscure the information andaccess to the resources in in
ways in which we don't even knowhow.
Right.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Yeah.
I don't even know, like, thiswas a problem until you told me
it was a problem.
Exactly.
And some stuff, you know,because again, I was I was gonna
add a reader.
So some of my documents Iactually read, but not all of it
.
And then, again, it wasn't likethe people who are welcoming
and warm and Come on in.
Let's let's show you how towork this.

(47:07):
No.
It's not it's not theexperience.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
Right.
Because there's this socialperception of black mothers as
deviant, immoral, and unworthy.
Right.
And so we're condemned beforewe even show up into that space.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
Before you even before you even talk to me,
you've made a judgment aboutwhat you think my story is, or
what you think I've gone through, or what you think and, you
know, on hindsight, with doctorMcKill, when Daniel's father,
went to prison, I sent my sonaway for three months because

(47:43):
emotionally, I couldn't wrap mymind around being a single
mother.
And in hindsight, I had amental lapse.
Like, I didn't know it then.
But in hindsight, I'm my mom Itold my mom, I'm dropping them
off.
I dropped my son off, sedentary, and left.
And it wasn't because I won'thave type person, but I just

(48:07):
mentally and emotionally couldnot wrap my mind around him.
And hindsight probably wouldhave been diagnosed depression
or something else.
You know what I'm saying?
Because I just couldn't do itsince I just was like, I just
went down.
Like, I just I just went down.

(48:29):
And so it and so it took afriend's calling me one day and
say, I'll get your son.
And I was like, what?
He was like, listen.
Wake up.
And he should wake up.
Go get your side.
And that was the wake of call Ineeded because I was in a I was

(48:51):
probably depressed.
Yeah.
I thought even a greatdepression didn't know it.
And then you know, singleparenting wasn't easy for me.
And so I spiraled down, butdidn't know I was spiraling down
.
You know what I'm saying?
So I made a lot of bad choices.
And so there's no one thereLike, that help that you think.

(49:16):
Why shouldn't she just listen?
I need someone to tell me to goget my son back.
You know, it took someonesaying like, no, you that's not
okay.
You actually don't need to goget your kid.
To help me, like, wake up alittle bit like, oh, okay.
I guess, it's time to come outof this.

(49:37):
But that wasn't the end of it.
And, you know, unless you hadthose people, in your community,
and a lot of people don't havefolks like that.
And it still took three monthsfor someone to say something to
me.
To kind of alert me to my mydysfunction at the time.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Yeah.
And that's what's at stake.
Right?
It's it's the safety of ourfamilies.
It's our human dignity becausethese oppressive systems, the
cultural state, it is deathdealing.
Mhmm.
Right?
It's not even a matter ofsurvival.
It's life or death Mhmm.

(50:21):
When we talk about survival.
Yeah.
That when people are makingthese desperate decisions and
choices

Speaker 2 (50:28):
Mhmm.

Speaker 1 (50:29):
It's because if they don't, that the alternative
might be deaf dealing?

Speaker 2 (50:34):
Absolutely.
And

Speaker 1 (50:36):
so it is that it is an act of desperation against a
system that isn't designed tohelp us because it is biased.
It's racist.
It's misogynist.
It's patriarchal.
Right?
And so it doesn't see blackwomen as worthy of it too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, you know, I reallywanna harken on this issue of

(50:57):
judgment.
And I'll also say justcritically and then I'll come
back when we've talked about therules and the welfare system,
even if you were to get a job.
Right?
As part

Speaker 2 (51:08):
of the,

Speaker 1 (51:09):
you know, make folks work, women get paid sixty cents
to the dollar Absolutely.
Of their white counterparts,male counterparts.
So even if you were to get ajob, it wouldn't be adequate.
It would be adequate to to getyou out of poverty.
That's right.
It's a systemic issue.
It's not an it's not justgetting an apartment.
You need childcare.

(51:29):
You need affordable housing,you need Right.
Is It's a it's a systemic issue.
Yeah.
And and if when you're son'sfather, return home.
He wouldn't he wouldn't haveeven been allowed to stay with
you because of the rules in thewelfare system of having someone

(51:51):
with a felony record and livingwith you.
Absolutely.
Or it would have jeopardized

Speaker 2 (51:56):
your situation.
Yep.
Yeah.
So, of course, when he camehome, he didn't come to me.
He went back to his mom's house.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Right.
And so what does that do forthe family system and community?
So it's, I mean, it's allaround at every turn.
We are oppressed anddisadvantaged in ways that are
deaf dealing and and is notdesigned to support our human
flourishing.
But I wanna talk about the thecondemnation and the judgment

(52:24):
piece.
Where was the church in yourstruggles?
And do you find that there areaspects of church teachings and
practices that participate inthe judgment and condemnation of
poor black mothers.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
I do.
Two things I wanna say aboutthat.
So so the first thing I wasblessed that in my situation,
both myself and my son's father,we came out of the same choir.
So people knew us both.
So the there was not muchjudgment there.

(53:03):
There was actually a lot oflove, but from other people.
And from outside that smallcommunity.
So there was a lot of love LikeI said, me and my mom didn't
have the best relationship atthe time.
So there was that that camewith his own level of judgment.

(53:28):
And then, you know, just peoplein general that don't know you.
And they say things.
And so I had my my choir familythat was you know, it was cool.
That were that were good to me.
But it was all the other people.

(53:50):
All of it was all the otherstatements.
And I remember like, thinkingone day, man.
I mean, all the statements.
Right?
I'm black and female.
Baby daddy's incarcerated.
Got a son, owned AFDC, a whack.

(54:11):
I got a beat up car.
That barely runs.
I live in a single apartmentwith Roaches.
Like, I was meeting Like, ifthere was a checklist with
stimulus.
Check, check, check, check,check, being incarcerated, mama
wasn't incarcerated for a shorttime check.

(54:32):
Like, broke check.
Like, I'm, like, Like, therewas a season where I met all the
stigmas that were talk aboutthat time.
In instances, that is not agood feeling.
Like, I can laugh about it now,but Like, I just remember

(54:53):
thinking, man, I if there was alist, check, check, check, check
, check, she went on standards.
She is the epitome of restigma.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
So listen.
Can you share with ourlisteners what facilitated the
turnaround and the come up.
How did you get to where youare here and who was
instrumental in that process?
Was it the church?
Was it community?
Can you just encourage us bytelling us the the end of the

(55:25):
story?
Yeah.
I'm at a still unfolding.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
I got you.
Yeah.
No.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
No.
Please don't apologize.
We'll take the full story.
It's it's encouraging.
The full story.
Right?
We appreciate that you'rekeeping it real.
And transparent.
No.
But I can imagine listeners whomay be where you were.
Right.
Wondering, well, she's nowreverend doctor nigamous medical
life.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Ma'am.
What

Speaker 1 (55:47):
happened?
What what happened differently?
And what was the church's rolein that?
It was

Speaker 2 (55:55):
What time?
The church was veryinstrumental because at the time
, I was I was a member of fame.
And

Speaker 1 (56:01):
And like I said, that way,

Speaker 2 (56:02):
they my name.
Right?
And I I guess I have my choirfamily, and they were very they
were they were team that, youknow, they were rooting for me.
And so that was and and and,you know, me having a kid didn't
stop me from being able to singan choir and all that.
I think Dr.
Nikhir would change it for me.

(56:23):
It was really It was it was thelord saying to me this call in
your life.
So I accepted my call toministry.
Single black mother on AFDC inWick.
Daddy, baby, Daddy in prison,and I accept the call to

(56:44):
administer.
And that's really what startedthe term out for me was
accepting that God had called me.
And and really just a spiritualAnd I I can't tell well, no.
No.
Let me say this way.

(57:05):
The day I knew I that I was tostep into ministry.
I was with the other ministersof the church because I was
still very active in church.
I just was so struggling.
And we are crossing the streetgoing to have lunch with doctor
Murray.
And the holy spirit is sayingto me, this is where I want you

(57:26):
to be.
And I knew it was in the middlebecause I was living in the
middle street walking with myson, the only minister walking a
little baby in tow.
And and and and just kind ofacknowledging, like, who who is
that talking to me and goinglater on that week to my pastor?
And tell them I think I've beencalling to to to to ministry.

(57:50):
And it wasn't necessary topreach.
It was just called to ministry.
But I accepted that call, says,Still on AFTC and Wix, still in
the single part with thecoaches, still that the baby
daddy in prison, stillstruggling, still not having.
And just knowing that god hadit.
It was a spiritual moment.
It was a spiritual encounter.

(58:11):
But it was also because I wasin a space with people that
spiritual we're feeding into apass through Mary and others.
But the crazy part is numberfast forward in, like, a couple
of years.
So I'm in ministry.
Life was turning around.
And it so let me say it to yourlisteners.
It wasn't that moment when Iaccepted my card of ministry,
but it took time for me to walkin there.

(58:32):
And it was walking in that thatbegan to turn everything else
around.
When I accepted that guy hadcalled me, regardless of my
situation.
That's what began to turnaround for me here.
Like, fast working years later,I'm I'm working with some young
ladies at the church teenagers.
And I remember a woman callingme.

(58:55):
I don't even know what shecalled me about.
And she says to me, So you're asingle mom.
I was like, yeah.
She's like, you're not married.
It's like, no.
This is a woman who's olderthan me.
She said, you mean, tell methat guy called you a mystery
and you a single mother and youeither have a baby's unaware

Speaker 1 (59:18):
What?

Speaker 2 (59:21):
Says.
Then when we called me andtried to clown me on being
called me in the ministry.
I guess she had just found outor she had just heard.
And because at that time, whenyou know when you ate me, you
gotta go before the church, notat.
Mhmm.
Call me on my I don't know.
She got my phone number.
She called me on my phonenumber and really tried to clown
me for accepting my card ofministry as a single month.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
What's how did you respond?

Speaker 2 (59:43):
I said, well, if you wanna tell the story of Mary and
Joseph, Mary wasn't marriedeither.
Come on.
If anybody is able to talk to,unless single mothers is me.
And because that by that time Iread a little you know, I Like,
I was raised in church, so Iknew the bible.

(01:00:04):
That wasn't the issue.
I just had to get out ofwhatever God had to deliver me
from God had to deliver me from.
And and that's all anotherstory about what I could be
delivered from, but it wasstreet life.
But so that was part of theturnaround.
Like, getting delivered fromstreetlights like being up
streets.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
We're gonna have to have that conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
That's a whole another that's a whole another
problem.
I don't

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
think I got that drop .
And I know you very well.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
This just put on the cap August seventeenth nineteen
ninety one, Laura spoke to mevery clearly said his life or
death get out, and I had to makea phone call from the Retreat
Center.
Wow.
And it wasn't easy.
Oh, boy.
It wasn't letting go easy.
But it's a whole anotherpodcast.
Mhmm.
But

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
So this was communal violence.
This was intermittentintermittent partner violence.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
What's going on?
It was Okay.
Yeah.
So But yeah.
Yeah.
So but, anyway, but but but,yeah, she tried to call me.
But by that time I had I comeup a little bit.
So I just dropped on her story,Mary.
Mary wasn't married either.
So if anybody's able to talk tosingle mothers and church is

(01:01:21):
new, that's really good.
She dropped you know, that wasa light drop moment that wasn't,
you know, she didn't have noneof the must must have that she
kind of I guess what, you know,God says.
So I I can't argue with, youknow, that kind of respond to
what God says.
So I can't yeah.
What you called me for is so,you know, And I think she wasn't

(01:01:41):
expecting me to respond to herthat way, but people don't know.
Like, I'm very nice and I smilea lot, but I will let you have.
I have a capricorn.
I don't get it.
Any fucking gift.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
Listen.
For our listeners, I want youto check out this book by Tracy
West.
She's a professor adistinguished professor of
ethics at Drew University, andthe name of the book is
disruptive Christian ethics.
And in that, she talks aboutMary and the magnificat.

(01:02:18):
Mhmm.
And she talks about Mary inrelationship to poor black women
who are on welfare.

Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
And it is a beautiful interpretation of Mary through
a social justice lens Yeah.
That relates Mary's story towomen like you and other mothers
who had to have experience withpoverty, with judgment, and
with welfare system.

(01:02:49):
And so work.
So I encourage our ourlisteners to to check out the
book by Tracy quest disruptiveChristian ethics.
And and what that woman said toyou is it really shows the ways
in which kind of be issues ofjudgment and condemnation that

(01:03:10):
we receive in society, right, bythe officer who said, well,
couldn't you just get a job?
All of those judgments that weare that we also encounter those
judgments in the church.
That's right.
And the people who weaponizethe gospel people who weaponized
the bible in their faith inways to point blame

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
On women who do not represent their standards of
purity and respectability andpiety and holiness and so forth.
So much so that she questionedyour worthiness, I'm being
called Right.
Recognizing that we all have acall.
Right?
Because that call affirms ourhumanity.

(01:03:53):
It it affirms our personhood.
It affirms that God caresenough for us that got created
us to to to execute anassignment on Earth.
Right?
That we all have a role Yeah.
And some contribution

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
To give to creation and society.
And it does not matter ifyou're poor, it does not matter
if you're woman.
It does not matter if you havea conviction.
It does not matter if you're onwelfare.
It does not matter if you haveRoaches in your house.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
Right?
Right.
Right?
We are all good Yeah.
Worthy

Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
Yeah.
And made in the image of God.
Yes.
Says, I wanna thank you so muchfor for joining us on this
interview as we talk about thecriminalization of poor black
mothers and abolitionistinterventions.
We had an abolitionistsanctuary service at your church
And perhaps as we look toconclude this, this interview,

(01:04:50):
you could talk about yourexperience and kind of how you
have how you see the benefits ofmerging, faith, of abolition so
that when we read the gospel,that when we are applying
interpretive lens to our faiththat we do so through the lens
of social justice with anattention to ambition.

(01:05:12):
And as you do that, as you talkabout your experience with the
abolition of sanctuary service,could you just conclude with
some call to actions who are ourlisteners.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
So first, I wanna say thank you for bringing Abilis
to sanctuary, the word ofencouragement church.
I think it was important for menot just to support the work
that you're doing, but also tohelp my the congregation that I
have responsibility for in thecommunity to help them marry

(01:05:43):
together the gospel and and andlife Right?
Because sometimes you can be ina spiritual space and it's all
spiritual and it has nopractical application.
And number one, my life is youknow now, it's too real to not
to to, you know, to to try toseparate the two.

(01:06:06):
And and also I was raised underthat where you bring the gospel
and real life and what'shappening on the ground together
.
So the impact of of ablish thesexuality coming to our church
was that it gave the communityperspective how to do that,
looking at this issue of, youknow, black mother's welfare,

(01:06:30):
even the issue of reproductiverights from through a spiritual
lens, gospel lens.
Right?
And And and so what that does,it begins to open up the minds
of people like, oh, this is notjust about me being holy ghost
field even though it's important, but this gospel has other
functions and other functionsthat can also benefit my life.

(01:06:52):
So now the gospel not it's notjust something that is emotional
and feels good.
It's also a a tool I heard Dr.
Wuhan Binjia talk abouttechnology.
So now the gospel is technology.
For me to use in the real worldto address all these issues.
So and so that was that's Ithink that's the benefit.

(01:07:16):
Right?
People learn how to use thegospel and apply it in a in a
more practical practice kind ofway.
And it becomes a tool andtechnology for their day to day
life and not just some spiritualthing that makes them feel good
periodically.
And then I think the call toactions would be number one,
follow abolitionists, sanctuaryon all the social media

(01:07:37):
platforms.
Get connected with getconnected with doctor Nakia.
Especially if you're new tothis space, you don't wanna get
out there on your own and then,you know, make make some bigger
mistakes.
You wanna be connected topeople that know what they're
talking about And and becauseit's not necessary for us to
reinvent the wheel, sometimes wejust need to get help somebody

(01:08:00):
else push their buggy along.
And so I wonder why they wantto help doctor McKee and push
the buggy along, call it,Applebee's, sanctuary, and then
find your, find your, find thetheme in a social the in in like
the social social justice worldthat is for you and get
connected with that.
So whether it's reproductiverights incarceration, if it's,

(01:08:22):
you know, police brutality,whatever is a plethora of issues
, even if it's ecologicaljustice, whatever.
Find the thing that that's thatresonates with your heart and
your soul and make a decision toget plugged in and to activate.
Because we need where people toactivate as opposed to just

(01:08:42):
listening.
And so, explicit safety is agreat place to start.
And read more.
Dr.
Nikkea, you gave out a bunch ofbooks.
Some of those books I've readand I got a bunch of books so to
the listeners, to the viewers,read read books, read books by
some of the people that Dr.
Kia mentioned to others, readbooks and really understand

(01:09:03):
what's going on.
It is a it's a game and not agood game.
It's a game out here.
A lot of games are being playedon people's lives and and then
I can tell you that.
Then I can tell you you play inchess and you think you play in
checkers.
That's a real bar by NipseyHussle.
I was either trying playcheckers and they play chess,

(01:09:23):
and that's real.
So read books.
Read.
Yep.
And that's that's it.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Definitely connect with me.
Rev juju on all social mediaplatforms.
If you Google Rev juju,Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn,
Twitter, it's all the same.
Ram, g g, r e v, j u j u, andyou'll be able to find me.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
Excellent.
Thank you so much, Robin.
Jigju, I know that you do a lotof work with black lives matter
and clergy for black lives andthe various social justice
movements.
So I hope our listeners willsupport you as they find you on
social media and you keep usinformed of the great work that
you're doing.
We definitely wanna plug in andtap into you.

(01:10:06):
So thank you so much forjoining us.
I am your host, reverend doctorNikhia Smith Robert and the
Executive Director of AblishnaSanctuary, you can follow me at
nakia as Robert n at ablishnaSanctuary on Instagram, Facebook
, and Twitter.
You can also sign for exclusiveupdates, donate, and support us
at w w w dotabilitionisanctuary dot org.

(01:10:28):
As we conclude this episode,Remember that abolition is not a
practice, but it is a religion,and this is what we believe.
We believe in a god of beingoppressed.
We believe that black womenshare divinity with god, Hagar,
Harriet, So Jernard Carol, andcountless others who make a way
out of no way.
We believe in black women asworthy, a source of salvation,

(01:10:50):
and whose moral agency to make away out of no way demonstrates
the carton virtues of compassion, care, creativity, courage, and
community over and againstcondemnation and criminality.
We believe in a brownPalestinian Jew, the black
messiah Jesus who was profiledpolice and persecuted by the
state on trumped up charges.

(01:11:10):
We believe that Jesus died acriminal but did not wake up one
.
He transcended criminality onthe cross, but no one ever needs
to die for us to be saved.
We believe, and spirit asadvocate who draws the least of
these, fem, women, men, girls,boys, and gender not performing
people to other in a belovedcommunity, we believe in a

(01:11:31):
resurrection hope that calls usinto right relationship and to
restore the human dignity ofindividuals who are criminalized
, caged, and cashed out.
We affirmed discipleship as acall to advance a faith based
abolitionist movement to createspiritual legal and economic
sanctuaries to transform socialstructures where the last become

(01:11:52):
first and the captives are setfree.
We are avidist sanctuaries,leaving a coalition to repair,
restore, and rebuild a more justinequitable society of communal
thriving.
Dr.
Medumet, thank you so much forbeing with us.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
Amen.
Thank you.