S2:E5 EbonyJanice: All The Black Girls Are Activists

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary podcast,
where we consider criticalconversations and call to
actions at the intersections offaith, abolition and Black
motherhood.
I am your host, reverend DrNakia Smith-Robert, the founder
and executive director ofAbolitionist Sanctuary.
We are a national coalitionleading a faith-based

(00:23):
abolitionist movement.
Be sure to visit us atabolitionistsanctuaryorg and
take courses or become certifiedin abolition as social change
at abolitionacademycom.
Thank you to our audio andvisual audiences for joining us
on YouTube audiences for joiningus on YouTube, instagram,

(00:44):
facebook and all platforms.
Join me in welcoming ourspecial guest for this exclusive
conversation.
I am so excited to introduceauthor and activist Ebony Janice
Hi Hi.
Thank you for being here.

(01:05):
If you don't mind, may I justintroduce you to our audience,
please please you can do theabridged version of whatever bio
you got.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
It's probably about the end of the book.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
I'll try my best.
Ebony Janice is the founder andCEO of the Free People Project
and the Ebony Janice Project.
She has authored several books,including my favorite All the
Black Girls Are Activists AFourth Wave Womanist Pursuit of
Dreams as Radical Resistance.
Her spiritual mentorshipprogram entitled Dream Yourself

(01:39):
Free is designed to supportBlack women to heal
intergenerational wounds andprioritize pleasure.
Our talks embody a hip-hopwomanist perspective.
She is the visionary andcreator of Black Girl Mixtape, a
platform and safe think spacethat elevates the intellectual
authority of Black women.
She is the author of the Allthe Black Girls Are Best Sellers

(02:02):
campaign, raising over amillion dollars to mass purchase
black femme books with the goalof getting them on the New York
Times bestselling list.
This project endeavored tospend the bulk of these funds in
small black and indie-ownedbookstores and gifted thousands
of books to individuals andorganizations nationwide.
Ebony Janisse earns herbachelor's in cultural

(02:25):
anthropology and politicalscience and a master's of arts
in social change, with aconcentration in spiritual
leadership, womenist theologyand racial justice.
Welcome, ebony Janice, thankyou, thank you, thank you, thank
you.
Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to have you hereand I cannot wait to get into
our conversation.

(02:45):
So let's get to it.
Let's begin, if you may, justdescribe how you are presenting
yourself in this space what areyour visual appearances, what
are you wearing, your backgroundaesthetics and also who are
your people.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Okay, I'm sitting here with a 30 inch bust down
with a part in the middle, longblack hair to my back and have
on a white dress.
It is O'Shea Ifade, so I try towear white on O'Shea Ifade and
O'Shea Obakalade final showabout a lot of days.

(03:26):
And I'm sitting in front of abookshelf that has some of my
favorite books.
Right to the left of me, whichis right on the screen Left and
above is like my womanist text,kind of on this shelf and this
shelf.
And then my romance novels areright here behind me, because
that's important, and a stack ofall the Black girls are

(03:46):
activists are sitting rightthere as well, and I come into
this space with myself.
I come into this space with myparents, jacob and Cassandra
Moore, and I come into the spacewith my honorable ancestors,
emma Jane Baxley and BerniceGully Moore.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
I share.
So if you had a 90 second reelhighlighting your life, what
would you include and, mostimportantly, what would be the
background music?

Speaker 2 (04:23):
What would be the background music, 90 Second Real

(04:44):
, highlighting my Life, wouldsay that, eb being because even
as a little girl I used to thinkthat I was magic and that has
certainly guided the way that Iexist in the world, even to
white.
And I started by talking aboutbeing a free Black girl going

(05:09):
into a free Black woman.
But Black women and Black girlshave always been the center of
all the work that I've ever donein all the different iterations
of who it is that I am.
So that would definitely be inthe 92nd reel and she loves love
and she loves her.

(05:31):
Corinne Bailey raised like astar.
So we'll go with it that's thechurch right and you got the

(06:07):
romance in your bio.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
You mentioned pleasure.
We love all of that.
And now you, you like the hoodrat, that the hood ratchet stuff
, right, um, and so I like tosay that, um, I like, uh, I am
both redeemed and ratchet, um,and so I.
What I really like is that youhave some connections to one of
my favorite places in the world,shout out to Harlem.
Okay, so you moved from NorthCarolina to New York City,

(06:34):
harlem.
You may not know this, but I'mborn and raised in Harlem.
Anyone who knows me that'sprobably the first thing they'll
say is she's from Harlem,because I rip it hard.
And so I was just there and Igrew up on 110th Street in Fifth
Avenue, two tall towers,schaumburg Plaza.
It's the same building thatinvolved the Central Park Five.

(06:59):
So Kevin Richardson was my nextdoor neighbor.
The building is Yusef Salam andCorey Wise and close to Antoine
and Raymond.
So a lot of things happen therein terms of policing, but you
know, and there was also a lotof community, and so Harlem
definitely shaped all that I am.
But I'm interested to know howwas your experience?

(07:21):
What was it like for you makingthat transition from North
Carolina to New York City?

Speaker 2 (07:26):
I love.
Harlem is definitely andprobably my top three favorite
places on the planet, and I willsay that first of all, I was
living in North Carolina verybriefly after grad school.
So I live back in NorthCarolina now as well, but
originally from Ohio, fromSandusky Ohio, yeah so, but even

(07:49):
still kind of rural space iswhere I grew up and the rural
space is where I was coming fromat the point that I was moving
to Harlem.
So it was definitely, I won'tsay a culture shock, but it was
definitely very different frommy living experience prior to
living in Harlem and Ipersonally don't think there's

(08:10):
any place in the world actuallylike Harlem, usa.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Let's go.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
I don't think there's any place in the world like
Harlem.
For years, though my entirelife, it was one of my dreams.
Even before I'd ever gone toHarlem I was just like I want to
.
I mentioned the blackity,blackness you know kind of
earlier in my 92nd reel thatblackness and black folk and my
folk right that has always beena part of it.
So you know you're a youngblack girl who loves black
things.
Harlem should probably come upat some point in your mindset of

(08:39):
like I got to go there, I gotto be there.
I got to be there, I got to seesomething.
There's something there for me.
So I had any time I would visitHarlem prior to living in
Harlem, because I had a friendwho's lived in New York since we
were 16, she went to some Aileysummer schools and things like
that.
So anytime I ever went toHarlem I always was like I'm
popping here.
I don't even necessarily knowif I'm popping anywhere else,

(09:04):
I'm walking down the street andyou know, street harassment is
just even a little different in.
Harlem and then and then by thetime I lived there, it was.
It was so many of the thingsthat I dreamt that it would be.
It was, it was black and I andI felt very seen and witnessed.

(09:27):
And keep in mind, I've lived inCalifornia, which is where I
went to grad school, and then Ilived in Southern California.
I lived in Northern Californiawhere I went to grad school, and
then Southern California in myearly twenties.
So I've experienced, like larger, larger cities that did not
witness me as a Black woman inthis body, right, in the same
way that I was very much sowitnessed in Harlem.

(09:49):
And you know, I even joke aboutthe street harassment being
different.
It was different, but thatdoesn't mean that there was not
problematic street harassment inHarlem, but it was even
different in the sense of likethe celebration of, you know,
this regular black girl body I'mdoing, you know quote fingers
right this regular black girlbody and um, and even when I had

(10:12):
a fade while I was in Harlem,that was glorious.
And if I had a bus down while Iwas in Harlem, you know if I
had a wig or if I had weed, if Ihad braids, like so many
versions, I feel like everyversion of me was very much so,
you know, seen and witnessed inHarlem, both by the, the, you
know, the men that I feltsexually attracted to, and also
also by the women right Likethat.

(10:32):
All people, all the people youknow that were in Harlem, was
like I see you, you knowexperiences that you're having.
I feel very, I felt verywitnessed there.
So Harlem gave me so much ofwhat I thought I would get in
Harlem, and Harlem gave me somestuff I asked for.
It's life, though right, likeyou can just have this huge,

(10:55):
beautiful, kind of dreamy ideaof a space and then you get
there and you meet people andyou have, like it's just life.
And so, you know, I lived on132nd and 5th.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah, I know that well.
My family grew up in 131st.
We were live on Linux.
Yes, my church is on 132nd.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
I was right on the corner.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
My church is right across the street.
Yeah, mcdonald's is right there, or a block up Linux Terrace.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Literally, I lived, literally I lived in mother
effing harlem baby central.
The fire station is right there, about five blocks over is a
police station, and so therethere also felt like there was
and I'm in this space thathasn't fully been gender, that
this part of harlem it hasn'tbeen fully been gentrified yet
either.
So what is very interestingabout gentrification and this
ain't you ain't asked me none ofthis, but I'm gonna go here

(11:51):
what's interesting aboutgentrification is that when
white supremacy has decided it'scoming for your home, it will
do everything in its power topush you out of it before it
shows up and says you can'tafford to live here anymore.
So even the resources that weretaken away from or not made

(12:11):
readily available to make surethat this space could still
remain beautiful and clean andsafe, right, like having all the
things that you need that I waskind of at the.
I don't think they've taken132nd and 5th yet, right, I
don't think they've taken thatarea yet.
No, you know what?

Speaker 1 (12:29):
They're coming for it .
So the church has sold the land.
They took Paragon, the fishmarket, manor, yeah, and they're
about to build that.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
Right.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
They gave all the money to Harlem Hospital.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
They're trying.
You got the shop.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
They're trying.
This is really.
It really hits home for mebecause when gentrification took
over our building, we were aMitchell-Lama building, so we
had tax subsidies, so it wasaffordable housing, rent control
.
But then the landlordsprivatized the buildings.
And when they privatized thebuildings my mother's rent went

(13:05):
up 300 percent, believe it.
And so I saw how gentrificationworked to displace residents
Right.
And then the eminent domainthat happened with the buildings
of Columbia University andMount Sinai and all the things.
But what's interesting I don'tknow if you know Alicia Gordon
she is the executive director ofthe Current Project.

(13:27):
She's also based in Harlem andher organization focuses on
economic empowerment for poorBlack mothers.
But she does this survey andshe coins this term the Midler
mother and the Midler mother wasmy mom.
It's the person who does notmake enough to qualify for

(13:49):
section eight but also doesn'tearn enough to afford the rent
once it's privatized, in mymother's case.
So they don't make enough forgovernment subsidies, but they
don't make enough to securequality of life.
This kind of Midler mom, andit's a very.
It's a very, you know, it is anexistence of survival.

(14:10):
And so that is how abolitionistsanctuary emerged.
It was based on this story ofmy single, poor Black mother,
born in Harlem, new York,pregnant at 15, me receiving my
first letter from my brother inprison at the age of 12,
watching how carceralitydecimated my community.
And yet still Black women,including my mother, knew how to

(14:34):
make something out of nothing,right, right, right.
How to make a dollar out of 15cents.
And sometimes that meantbending the rules or breaking
the law and according to societystandards that's considered
criminal, deviant, immoral, badmother.
But for us it was a source ofsalvation.
It literally saved our livesand ensured that there was food
on the table, clothes on ourback, roof over our head.
So Ablisher Sanctuary emergedto reappraise poor Black

(14:57):
mothers' moral strategies, notas vice but as virtue, is using
the womanist canon andscholarship as well as
liberation theologies andgrounded in experience and
wanting to train faithcommunities to understand this
intersection right and and andblack mother survival.
So we're doing a documentary andso I would say last month we

(15:19):
were in Harlem, really likefilming what it feels like to
walk the streets from mybuilding to my school, which was
a four block span, and passingpublic housing, methadone
clinics, corner boys, all thethings right and how that's
related to survival, and thenwalking to the church and

(15:42):
highlighting not just communitymothers but church mothers,
carceral mothers, and this ideathat no one should be punished
for merely trying to survive.
So this backdrop ofgentrification is really
important.
It also takes place in anarticle that I wrote.
That's forthcoming, but Ireally appreciate you mentioning
that and the sensitivity, andfor me that's some of the things
that Harlem took away.

(16:03):
Right, we talked about thegreat things about Harlem.
Some of the things that havebeen taken away is the way in
which gentrification, which iscolonization and new casings,
tries to erase our historyAbsolutely Displacement.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
So thank you.
Those are the things.
I don't need to belabor thateither, but those are the things
that you know I can talk about.
You know the noise and you knowjust different things.
That and I'm not talking aboutnoise as in people, I'm talking
about noise as in.
There's something veryinsidious about how loud the
sirens can be in yourneighborhood.
But if you go up to a differentneighborhood and I know that

(16:41):
the zoning is like that I knowthat there is a noise ordinance
where it pertains to certainneighborhoods.
So this isn't just somebodywho's not from New York
complaining about sirens.
This is someone who spent timein different parts of New York
and knows that you know you'renot hearing the same things in
your home that I'm hearing thesame things in your home that

(17:05):
I'm hearing about, and there'ssomething intentional about that
.
I'm just thinking about theplace of it because I've been
gone for a couple of years.
But, yes, the hospital's rightthere, the fire station, the
police station, so you got tothink about all these sirens 24
seven, what that does to yourpsyche.
And I met she ended up becomingmy editor but Tamela Gordon I
used to talk when I lived inHarlem, used to talk about I

(17:28):
wasn't using the language ofhood wellness, but she ended up
publishing the book HoodWellness just this year.
But I would talk about.
You know, it's really easy to be, you know, a Zen guru when
you're not living in this kindof experience and so trying to
do the deep work of being seated, of taking care of yourself,
it's just conversations that youcannot have at all, because we

(17:53):
cannot meditate with sirens 24seven and nobody cares.
There's no one to report thisto.
Because nobody cares.
You know why they don't care?
Because it's intentional and sothat they don't care.
Because it's intentional and sothat type of you know it's
intentional.
There will come a point whenthey've completely taken those
blocks, the rest of those blocks, because let's skip a couple

(18:15):
blocks and that 138 and up ispretty much gone as well.
Right, but once they have takenthose blocks completely, I can
guarantee you that those sirensfrom the ambulance will not be
as loud.
I can guarantee you that theywon't be as loud.
We're on the cusp of like agentrifying Harlem, where you go

(18:36):
into places in Harlem and it'spredominantly white and you
realistic in real life, havepeople looking at you like how
did you get here?

Speaker 1 (18:44):
Do you know where you are right now?
Do you know where you are rightnow?
Right, Do you know where youare right now?
Listen, listen.
I passed foster projects whileI was there and it was a white
family with their childrenplaying in the basketball courts
and I'm like Do you know whereyou?
Are right now.
I'm like I took my cameramanaround the projects.
I'm from here.
We didn't walk through.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
We around the projects.
I'm from here.
We didn't walk through.
We didn't walk through theseprojects.
You know where you are rightnow, baby, so not looking at me
like what am I doing here?
What are you doing here?

Speaker 1 (19:15):
So yeah, that's deep though that's deep, because I
remember my mom waking up in themiddle of the night, hearing
gunshots and out of her sleep,she will wake up screaming.
Is that my baby?
Right?
So the trauma of noise, right.
And then, in the case of sirens, right that it's almost as if,
the more you know the non-Black,the privileged neighborhoods,

(19:41):
right, it's almost as if theyare entitled to a peace and
safety.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
Uh-huh, because you're being socialized into
chaos.
Just be okay with the chaos,and how much does that incite
even your own panic?
That causes you to behave incertain ways that you might not
necessarily normally behave?
We're all on 10 all day long.

(20:08):
We don't know how to make, wedon't know how to get in
arguments and turn it downbecause we're on.
We started the argument on 10because we were sleeping on 10.
We went to sleep on 10, guys.
So it really is a.
I don't want to.
You know I think that's veryimportant.
You know, when I talk aboutHarlem and I do talk about that

(20:28):
a little bit in the book aboutyou know how Harlem gave me just
the fantasy I have met.
You know, probably to this day,the great love of my life, the
greatest love of my life inHarlem, life in Harlem.
I have, like so many gorgeousexperiences you know of, like

(20:49):
the old man on the corner of youknow 131st and Lennox in the
middle of the night.
Like just standing on thecorner participating in me
making out with my boyfriend atthe time.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
I guarantee you that was my family.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
I guarantee you, I learned so much about what my
body needs in Harlem and thething that I deeply desire.

(21:30):
I think that some of what allthe Black girls are activists is
trying to do in talking aboutthis softness to at the very
least introduce people who maybehave lived on 10 for their
whole life because they're fromplaces that have this kind of
there's no place like Harlem,but they're from places that

(21:52):
have this kind of 24 seventurned up energy outside, right
that.
Do you even know what it feelslike to be fully seated in your
body?
Do you even know what thatfeels like?
And if you've never experiencedit, do you even know that
that's a conversation to have?

(22:12):
Do you even know that's a thingto reach for, to want to desire
?
I don't have the answer to that, because it's not the way that
I was raised, but the absence ofit for your whole life.
And then maybe one day youtravel out, you don't live in
Harlem anymore and you and youwake up and it's quiet and do
you panic?
You know what do you do.

(22:33):
You know like what do you do?
So I want Black people ingeneral, but particularly
because my focus on my work is,you know, black women and femmes
.
Right, I want Black women allover the all over the world.
You know Black American womenmost specifically.
You know black women and femmes.
Right, I want black women allover the world.
You know black American womenmost specifically, you know.
To get even more clear, I wantblack American women to know
that it's an option so that theycan, regardless of where you
are, as far as yourpositionality or your

(22:54):
geographical location to bethinking hmm, I'm not seated
right now.
What do I need in this space?
Because I want to.
I want to get to live, you know, spend more time in my, in my
actual body and not in thesurvival, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
I promise we haven't met before this call, but you're
all up in my life.
I really, really, reallyappreciate that.
I think this is the power of um, sisterhood and womanhood, the
way in which we can be areflection of each other and
provide each other the healingthat we each need.

(23:34):
It's therapeutic right and it'scertainly not a substitute for
professional therapy, butthere's something that happens
right Sometimes it's justlanguage.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
right, it's just language.
There are things that I need tohear you say, and I have
experienced it, but I didn'thave the language for it.
Thank you for that language.
I'm not out of my mind.
I didn't make this up, thankyou for that language.
So yeah, 1000% agree with that.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
And that's the power of your book and others is the
way in which writings rightPeople's writing provides the
language of our hearts, of ourintrospection, things that we
couldn't articulate, but it'saffirmation and validation that
we weren't crazy right thatsomebody else is able to put
words to it.
I felt that the most when Iread James Cone's Black Power,

(24:23):
Black Theology.
I was like, wow, this is whatI've been feeling growing up in
the hood, but we weren't allowedto say it out loud.
So, yeah, absolutely so, thankyou for sharing Harlem.
Maybe we'll wait to after thecall, maybe off camera, but if
you really want your Harlempapers, like if you really want
the cards, I'm going to have tosee you shake, Well you ain't

(24:48):
getting them, then because I'mfrom Sandusky Ohio.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Let's not forget that part.
It's the best I got for you.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Oh, I love it.
So you are also seminarytrained?
Yes, can you share about yourspiritual formation and how you
found direction beyondChristianity and what?

Speaker 2 (25:19):
does that spirituality?
Look for Black girls activism.
Yeah, my spiritual religiousformation is the Baptist church.
I grew, I was, I feel like Imet.
I was born and raised in achurch and that kind of language
is a very specific language forvery specific people and I
didn't, because I was born andraised in the church, I didn't

(25:40):
realize that there were otherblack people in particular that
that weren't born and raised ina church.
So I remember getting tocollege and having friends who
didn't have a Bible and beinglike, oh, what in the world?
Hell.
In a handbasket In a handbaskethoney.

(26:01):
I really was born and raised inthe church.
My identity is so deeply rootedin Jesus Christ that when my
theological shift started tohappen, after a missions trip to
Kenya which is hilarious to mebut it makes sense at the same
time it was a mission trip wedidn't go there actually to

(26:24):
preach the gospel of JesusChrist, but overall it was a
mission trip because we wentthere to participate with the
faith-based organization.
But the last week of my time Iwas there, I was in Yajururu,
kenya, for about 10 weeks thismay be about 13 years ago now
and the last week of my time inKenya I went to Mombasa, which

(26:46):
is predominantly Muslim, andthat was the first time in my
life that I had ever been in aplace that was not
Christocentric.
So I'd never been somewherewhere people, for generations,
are not Christian.
It's not a conversationwhatsoever.
Jesus is not.
Jesus is an idea.

(27:07):
You know we've heard of him,appreciate him.
You know for what he'scontributed, you know the true
Christ, right, but Jesus is notthe our way to God.
And when I I didn't really uh.
So when I say I'm in Mombasaand like this super Muslim space
, I mean we're hearing the callto prayer all night long, right

(27:28):
Every single hour.
The siren, the loudspeaker isgoing off because it's Muslim,
muslim where we are.
And it's not until I got backhome that I really started to
process that, with one of thesenior pastors at the church
that I was attending at the timethat I really was struggling
with the idea of some so-calledpotential privilege that I had

(27:51):
by being born in Sandusky Ohio.
Because I am Christian, becauseI was born in Sandusky Ohio,
and I cannot fathom that I meanmore to God just based on the
location of my birth than thesepeople, these beautiful people
that I had the opportunity toexperience for a week and some

(28:11):
change in Kenya.
And I thank God for thisparticular pastor, pastor Derek
Barbie.
I thank God for him because inthe midst of this journey, I
really was going through a faithcrisis because I'm like I can't
see people going to hell andburning eternally because of

(28:33):
where they were born.
It's not that they haverejected Christ, it's that that
is not a reality.
That's not the conversation,that is just, it's not real, and
I'm going to quote Jay-Z it'snot real.
To me, therefore, it doesn'texist.
So, please, I do be having hiphop threats sometimes I love it.
So, yeah, it's not real.

(28:54):
And Pastor Derek Barbie said tome when I was in this crisis of
faith, when I was saying I don'treally know, it was deep.
I really don't know what Ibelieve right now because I knew
why I believed, but I couldn'treally fully flesh out what I
believed at that point because Ihad this new information and it

(29:14):
felt like I had to do somethingwith this information.
I can't just go back to businessas usual after this experience.
And I also positioned the factthat it was a mission trip
because I personally think thatif you go on a mission trip to
Africa as a Black person who isthe descendant of enslaved
Africans, you got to dosomething with what it means

(29:37):
that you are going there topotentially use Christ as a way
to, you know, evolve people I'mdoing quote fingers right Like
to to enhance people's lives andthat their lives, their culture
, their reality that they'vebeen deeply rooted in for
generations is is less thanbecause they may not have Jesus

(29:57):
Christ or that may not have beentheir way to God.
And so I returned from that andreally was just having to deal
with that and I was dealing withit, dealing with it, dealing
with it.
I also was accidentally datinga hotel at the time, but that's
a conversation for another day.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
That's not what we're talking about today.
Listen, I'm all for it.
I can meet you there.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
I'm sure, harlem.
So that was also, you know, apart of what was happening for
me.
I'm also like forced by thisguy.
Really, that is a conversationfor another day, because it was
actually very spiritually,emotionally abusive.

Speaker 1 (30:35):
You met him in Kenya.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
No, no, no, he was back when I came back to the
States.
Gotcha, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So after Kenya, I came back tothe States and was in
accidentally I don't want to sayaccidentally, and that's for
invite me to another podcast andwe'll talk about that.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
We're going to talk about the pleasure part, anyways
.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
All big, spicy ratchet.
But the point is so I'm havingthis crisis of faith, really
processing all these things,these thoughts, these questions
that I've never asked myselfbefore because I've never had to
, and simultaneously, in thisrelationship with this person
who is sharing just so muchsuper black, black, black

(31:19):
language and information with methat I also never really really
had to process or really thinkabout, I never really thought
about my to process or reallythink about, I never really
thought about my relationshipwith Christianity and slavery.
I never really thought aboutthose things and, which is wild
for me to say, because I again,my identity was Jesus Christ and
I get it now, but you know, atthe time it was really like a

(31:40):
wait a minute what have I beendoing with my black self?
And you know a lot of words tosay that.
Pastor Derek Barbie said to meI think this is the best thing
that will ever happen to yourfaith, that that you totally
take Christ off for a minute andand figure out if, if your path
is back to Christ or what it is.

(32:03):
And the thing is I was, I wasan ordained preacher, so I was
still preaching in the pulpitand I didn't know if Jesus was
even a thing to me at the time.
And I was in a pulpit in PortClinton, ohio, one Sunday
morning preaching and in themidst of that sermon, jesus

(32:24):
Christ came back to me.
It was I was preaching aboutthe trustworthy nature of Christ
and I really I'm standing therein the pulpit having this like
download, like Jesus, trueChrist.
Jesus Christ is so trustworthy.
I'm preaching it.

(32:45):
My sister is in the audienceand she's the only person, of
course, that knows that I'm inthis crisis of faith.
But she said she was like I waswatching you and I was like is
this girl having a stroke, likewhat is happening to her right
now?
Because I was like no Jesus inthe flesh is so trustworthy.
And that is the relationshipthat I began to have with Jesus

(33:05):
Christ.
It wasn't necessarily in thatparticular period of my time.
Jesus as a savior, it was Jesusas this embodied, you know,
manifestation of God that reallywas showing me what it looked
like to say words and see it andyou know to do what you say
you're gonna do and to cough,speak those things that are not
as though, like I saw jesuschrist and fleshed in in that

(33:28):
moment.
You know of preachment and Iwanted, I wanted that.
Whether whether I fleshed thatinto back towards christianity
or not, I wanted a relationshipwith that, with that guy.
And the years my relationshipwith Christianity has
drastically evolved.
Obviously, I mentioned earlierit's O'Shea Ifa Day, o'shea

(33:49):
Obatala Days I wear white, soI'm an initiated Ifa, obatala
and Oshun priest.
So clearly I am not a Christian, but I also, in the midst of my
initiations, I just was talkingto a girlfriend of mine about
this the other day that nobodycan out-churchy mystic me,
because in my initiations I justwas talking to a girlfriend of
mine about this the other daythat nobody can out-churchy
mystic me Because in myinitiations was I speaking in
tongues.
Yes, in my initiations was Iwhispering Jesus, jesus, so in

(34:14):
my body that I'm sitting infront of the Bible and he's
reading me, he's telling my Oduto me, which is this word for my
life, and the word he's givingme is so profound.
My natural response because I'm40 at this, you know 40, 41
years old at this time, goingthrough these initiations my
natural response to like a wordis Jesus.

(34:36):
My aunt, aoife, my godmother,was like she just always so
tickled Like you are the mostnon-Christian Christian ever.
It was a foundation for you.
And my first initiation was aSouthern Black Christian
experience.
I was initiated intoChristianity.

(34:56):
I was initiated into you know,you know, being a Baptist.
I grew up going to BTU, baptistTraining Union.
I was initiated, y'all.
So I I definitely know likeit's deeply in my bones but it's
.
I've just been able to reorientit in such a way that Christ,
my relationship with Christ, ismy own, personal, you know

(35:16):
experience and I don't flesh itout for people very often, right
, unless I feel like we have asacred space where, you know, it
makes sense that we can havethat conversation.
But even for my family veryoften I don't fully flesh it out
because I'd be like I want youto stay Christian.
So let's not have thisconversation because I think

(35:36):
that Christianity is a good pathfor you and I don't want to
introduce, you know, anything toyou that would make you feel
like what am I doing?
That's not my.
That's not my.
This is my path.
That's not my.
You know the journey that I'mon.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
Thank you for sharing that with us.
I understand the sacredness ofyour story and that spiritual
journey, so thank you for forsharing it.
And I could see you know MonicaA Coleman was my doctoral
advisor and a close friend ofmine, and so I know her story
well and I can hear parallels inthe two narratives.

(36:12):
I don't know if you knowFunlayo, my name is Funlayo.
She's also a good friend of mineand her mom is a Baptist pastor
and she's a Yoruba priestess.
So, yeah, it makes sense.
Right, it definitely makessense.
Thank you for sharing with us.
And it's interesting becausethere's some things that I do

(36:34):
that are non-Christian not toequate this with yours, but for
the very same reason, I don'tshare it with people.
So if you ask me if I have toteach a Bible study and in that
scripture something comes upabout promiscuity and
fornication, don't ask me what Ireally think about that,
because I'm going to steal somepeople's whole faith.
Walk in that.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
Let's just not have the conversation, just genuinely
, not even trying to be haughty.
You've gone to seminary atrained theologian.
We are not having the sameconversation.
So it doesn't make sense for usto have that conversation.
I don't think that it would beprosperous and I don't think

(37:17):
that we would end in peace foreither of us.
So just don't flesh it out.
Let's not have thatconversation.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
peace for either of us.
So you know, just don't fleshit out Like let's not have that
conversation.
Not at all, Not at all.
So.
But I have people come to me inprivate and say can you tell me
about it one-on-one, right?
So it's just, you know it'sbeing discerning what people can
handle and what's helpful fortheir faith journey.
So I completely understand.
So thank you for sharing yourspiritual formation.
And I want to make theconnection to the ways in which

(37:43):
you also identify as womanistand what you are presenting as a
fourth wave womanism.
How did you get there and whyis that intervention important?

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, I think that if you at some point, if you
identify as womanist, you couldprobably trace back through your
life and realize that youprobably were always womanist.
You just didn't have thelanguage for it.
And I think about that.
I'm from a family.
My grandmother raised six girlsby herself from a family full
of mamas.
You know the women really, thewomen in my family really, you

(38:21):
know, like the hierarchy ofeldership really is the women,
and you know, this is just theway that the institution of my
family worked, is that mygrandma's word was the word and
we went from there.
There are certain ways to moveout of that hierarchy and have
maybe more power and authority.
Your social status, economicstatus, you know, you might you

(38:41):
got a little bit more money,you're taking care of the family
.
You might not have to wait forthe highest auntie to rank you
or whatever, but you know, andso there, there are just so many
moments in my childhood that Ilook to.
I don't think I talk about thisin the book, but I had this
experience as a young girl whereeverybody my grandmother never
stayed alone.
My on my mother's side.
My grandmother never stayedalone on my mother's side.

(39:03):
My grandmother never stayedalone.
All of the grandkids, somebodywas always living with her,
staying with her, and so andthere are periods of time where
it was maybe two or three of usat one time staying at my
grandma's house, and the way therules were set up or unspoken
rules, but we knew the rules isthat if you came to spend a
night at grandma's house,whatever bed you made up meaning
you changed the sheets, youmade that bed, that's the bed

(39:24):
that you could sleep in fortonight.
So, of course, we had ourfavorite rooms, because this
room was too hot, that room wastoo cold.
This is the perfect room.
So I made up this bed.
I'm going to sleep in his roomtonight.
My cousin Robert McKinney I'mgoing to say his whole name my
cousin Robert came to the houseand goes and gets his little
nappy head in the bed that Imade up, and I'm like that's not

(39:47):
right.
We about to fight because I'msleeping in this room tonight
and my grandmother comes in.
My grandmother, who I believewas a womanist, comes in,
however, and says just go sleepupstairs, you can just go make
up that bed.
And I look at her.
I'm like 15, 16 years old atthe time.
I look at her and I say,grandma, you did wrong.
Now I'm saying this to mygrandmother from Talladega,

(40:11):
alabama, right Like to mygrandma.
She probably could have, butshe did not.
But my cousin was like what youknow, like it was about to be
an issue.
But I just go upstairs, I sleepin that bed.
The next morning we get up, getready to go to school.
Robert leaves out before me.
He says bye, hugs grandma, kissgrandma.
He leaves.
I go out.
My grandmother is sayinggoodbye to me and I don't speak,

(40:33):
I just walk out.
I go to school and I think aboutit while I'm at school, in
trouble when I get home, becauseshe done been told my mom that
I was disrespectful.
Dah, dah, dah, whatever.
But I get back to the house andas soon as I get to the house
that evening, my grandmothersays I need to apologize to you
for that because that was notright.

(40:53):
And I say you know, grandma,that really hurt my feelings
because you do that all the timewhen it comes to the boys.
You let the boys be chilling inthe living room after we all
just ate breakfast and the girlsare in the kitchen cleaning up
like they didn't.
And so she really was fleshingout where she's from the way

(41:16):
that she grew up, and it wasthis intergenerational exchange
that really gave my grandmothera revelation for herself that
she had been participating in abehavior that she didn't even
agree with.
So there's this transformativemoment that happens for us,
where my grandmother, who'smaybe like 70, 80 at the time,

(41:38):
is in a conversation with her15-year-old granddaughter, who
is without, you know, in aconversation with her 15 year
old granddaughter, who is, whois without the language, again,
of womanism or or feminism froma sociopolitical perspective,
right Like who's without thelanguage of gender equality is
standing up to her grandmothersaying this isn't right.
And if it means that I'm goingto get in trouble for expressing
my disappointment, then so beit, because I know, you know,

(41:59):
this isn't right, grandma.
And there's again, there'ssomething transformative that
happens there.
But I bring up just that storyvery quickly because I'm saying
there's evidence of both how Iarrived here and that it was
always there.
There was always somethingthere for me that was troubling.
What are we doing here and whyare we doing it this way?

(42:22):
What are we doing here and whyare we doing it this way?
And so it wasn't until, however, until I was in my late
twenties, dr Renita Weems waspreaching, who I never heard
anything about Dr Renita Weemsat this point, but she was
preaching at this church I wasgoing to and my boyfriend at the
time, his mother, who I don'teven think liked me very much,

(42:42):
but she called him and said tellEbony Janice, she needs to get
up to the church.
I go to the church because sheneeds to hear this lady that's
preaching.
So again, there's the fact thatshe knew that I needed to hear
Dr Anita Weems preaching.
Really speaks to the fact thatshe even saw the evidence of
something there about me that Iwould be moved by Dr Anita Weems
preaching there about me, thatI would be moved by Dr Anita

(43:06):
Weems preaching.
And I get there and I hear DrAnita Weems preach and I'm like
what the F?
I never heard.
You know, I never heard someonedo to the text with this like a
basic text, right.
I can't honestly remember thesermon, but let's say it was
just Romans 8 and 28.

(43:27):
This is not even somethinggender specific.
I never heard somebody takeRomans 8 and 28 and be like
let's talk about the Black woman, right, and this was not a
women's ministry event.
That's's not what this was.
So I'm like, wait a minute,what is this?
And that when I when I I'vestarted just I went and

(43:49):
researched her, I'm gonna readeverything she done wrote, I'm
gonna everything, everything Iwas uh became friends a couple
years later with um this is arandom name drop conversation,
but this is in the book too uh,with Tricia past, uh, tricia
Hersey, patrick, uh, tricia,tricia, tricia Hersey is what
she goes by publicly um of thenet ministry, and she was in

(44:11):
Emory at the time and so I wouldgo to some of her classes
sometimes, but she would share,like her um, uh syllabus for
different classes and, um, sheinvited me to this class and Dr
Monica Coleman is Skyping inlet's tell you kind of how long
ago that was Skyping in and I'msitting there like what is this

(44:34):
conversation?
What is going on?
I never, I never.
You know, I'm on my own journey,but I certainly didn't have
that language, and so that'sreally the the spark for me
deciding that I knew for surethat I was going to go to
seminary, but I didn't want togo to Candler because it's
Christian centered.
I knew I wanted to find amulti-faith I wanted to talk
about.
I know Christianity, I've beendoing it for a long, long time.

(44:55):
I want to go to a school thatis thinking about Christianity
but not thinking aboutChristianity as a central
conversation, and so that isreally, you know, a major part
of my journey this language.
Actually it was in thatconversation.
This is maybe 2000, maybe 2008.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
Okay, 2007.
That's when you were inseminary around 2008?

Speaker 2 (45:18):
I'm thinking about this particular class that went
on to Candler because I want toremember the year.
It was, just to say that it wasa long time ago, because I was
sitting there and I was saying,while Dr Monica Coleman was
speaking, I was saying to Tricia, I think we might be on the
cusp of another wave of womanism.
It wasn't 10 years ago, it mayhave been like seven, may have

(45:41):
been like, uh, seven, eightyears ago.
Yeah, it was a little longer.
I don't know what year it isright now, to be quite honest.
So, yeah, maybe 20, 20, 2014.
So maybe it was about 10 yearsago.
Anyways, I'm just uh againpositioning that because I was

(46:03):
thinking about it years ago.
I was thinking something'shappening where this Dr Monica
Coleman is essential to thestory because she is the one
credited with introducing us toa third wave of womanist
theology.
And just listening to her talkand this is my first time
hearing about third wavewomanism, of course Just

(46:23):
listening to her talk I was likethat is very relevant to where
we are.
And also I think that somethingelse is happening at the same
time, and the something elsethat was happening for me, or
what I was feeling, was thatthose of us who love God and are

(46:43):
thinking about our spirituality, our religious truth systems,
et cetera, thinking aboutjustice, thinking about freedom,
thinking about our embodiedselves, we're thinking about it
in such a way that maybe itwon't require a pulpit, maybe it
won't require academia at all.
We're thinking about it becausethat certainly is how I was
thinking about ministry.
I wasn't going to seminary tobecome a pastor at an official

(47:06):
institution.
I knew that my religion, myspirituality, would be a part of
whatever my work was going tobe, whatever that was going to
be, and so I saw that, I feltthat the Nat ministry existed
already.
It didn't exist in the way thatit exists now, but Trisha was
calling herself the nap bishopalready and as the nap bishop,

(47:27):
the funny thing is she just usedto be like y'all take a damn
nap, and that was kind of whatit was at the time and so I was
even thinking about that, youknow, like this is really
important.
This is not it's funny, butit's not a joke.
So there's something here and Iwas thinking deeply about my
relationship with hip hop andhow there were things that I

(47:48):
wanted to trouble with you know,the like with language that I
knew.
Of course Dr Katie GenevaCannon, you know, gave us the
tools to do that, but I hadn'tseen anybody really flesh it out
the way that I had beenfleshing it out with these
things.
I was calling pre-chefs where Iwas like doing these full blown
hip hop Bible studies to dealwith the ethics of considering

(48:08):
this sacred text, but not thissacred text.
So it was a lot happening.
But overall, this fourth wavethat I was imagining, or this
next wave that I was imagining,was really black women and femme
folk who loved freedom, who,you know, loved the folk, loved
spirit.
You know Alice Walker'sdefinition right, like who loved

(48:28):
, who really identified aswomanist or, you know, or even
Black feminist, but were notthinking about spirituality or,
you know, or our sociopoliticalplacement from a like an
institutional space, oursociopolitical placement from a
like an institutional space, andand also thinking about our
wellness as the center of all ofit, not as supplemental, but as

(48:49):
the center of all of it.
And I gathered that.
I gathered that even in thatconversation, that so much of
what was happening prior, Ithink, to this fourth wave of
womanism really was like we needto Dr Katie Cannon said that we
need to get tenure was like weneed to.
Dr Katie Cannon said that weneed to get tenure, you know we
need to like.
This is important and and so wecan't be in a fourth wave and

(49:09):
not acknowledge that weliterally sitting on the
shoulders of the ones who didall the work to get tenure and
to be preaching in the pulpitsand to, you know, be getting
these positions and to be thefirst, the first, the first, the
first to ever Right.
And now here we are saying ifthe first, the first to ever
right.
And now here we are saying ifour elders could have rested

(49:30):
more and could have created softspaces for them to exist and be
seated, and if, as preachers,we didn't have to be so serious
all the time, because to be apreacher, to be a woman and a
preacher, there's a certain waythat you have to exist, to be
taken serious by the body.
And you know, if we couldreally just be even centering

(49:51):
the pleasure and, you know,centering all of that Right,
like if we could even be in that, if that is the work and not
the supplemental material, like,oh, we're going to preach hard,
but then we're going to rest,no, we're going to rest and, but
then we're going to rest, no,we're going to rest, and that
will fuel what we preach, and soI felt that that was happening.
So that's kind of the journey,and it's funny that you
mentioned Dr Coleman and I'mdone with this sermon.

(50:12):
But it's funny that youmentioned the church though, so
you don't be lying about whenI'm done with the sermon but Dr
Coleman being such ainstrumental part of the spark,
the beginning of the journey, inthat now me in this IFA journey
it wasn't inspired by DrColeman, but I was thinking

(50:35):
about this as you were talking Ialso think that Dr Coleman is
initiated Obatala priest as well.
So it's funny how Jesus wassuch an important part of both
of our earlier journeys and Ithink for Dr Coleman it's the
same as well in so many ways andnow both of us being Obatala
priest.
That makes sense To me.

(51:00):
Jesus was Obatala in flesh, andso it just makes sense to me
that Jesus was Obatala in flesh,and so it just meant to me that
you know that, that that wewould be here in this place, and
she wrote the foreword for mybook.
So shout out to Dr.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
Coleman, she did, she did Shout out to Dr Coleman.
You know you can't talkwomanism and not mention Monica
Coleman.
And what I appreciate about herwork is that she's always
pushing the canon further,always pushing it beyond its
limitations.
Whether that puts her in thehot seat, right.
Whether that's gonna attractcritique there was some

(51:31):
contention around even thelanguage of waves right.
That's the feminist work.
And the way she goes beyondChristianity right.
Like so much of her work, evenquestioning whether we should be
beyond Christianity right.
Like so much of her work, evenquestioning whether we should be
womanism her courage to gobeyond.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
Who can call themselves womanist?

Speaker 1 (51:51):
right Like all of it for sure, and she's not afraid
to ask the questions that manyof us are thinking, but we are
afraid to ask it or the spaceisn't held for us to see if we
ask those questions.
So shout out to Dr MonicaColeman, shout out to Dr Renita
Weems, who is the first blackwoman to earn her PhD in Hebrew

(52:14):
studies.
Yeah, and she is also a mentorof mine, and she's.
She's just consistent.
And she is also a mentor ofmine, and she's just consistent.
Right, she's going to transformany room she walks in and she
does that by keeping it real,and she's not going to correct
you.
You know what I mean.
Like you know that saying isyou want to be around people who

(52:35):
won't be afraid to pull you tothe side to let you know your
slip is hanging.
That's Deidre Weems right,she's going to pull you to the
side.
She loves hard right.
She loves in a way that's loyaland that's going to push you to
grow.
So you are amid a great cloudof witness.
I am churchy Monica alwaysteases me about that, that I'm a

(52:58):
church girl but also I'm alsodeeply rooted in hip hop.
So my journey was growing up inthe church but in Harlem, and
growing up poor and in thatenvironment.
One of the ways of getting outis either hustling, is playing

(53:20):
sports or doing music, and I'vedone just about all of it.
Right and so, um, you know, Iplayed basketball.
I was recruited to a D oneschool, but I also would go to
my you know homeboys house andhe's DJ.
He's giving me a beat, I'mwriting in my composition book,
and that goes to come to thestudio.

(53:42):
I'm in the studio, I'm atDiddy's studio, I'm at, you know
, in studios with Guru and I'mrecording late night sessions to
be the first lady of art, youknow.
And it just kept going, it keptgoing, it kept going, until I
was asked to speak for a back toschool celebration at a church.
I spoke and afterward it was analtar full of people wanting to

(54:03):
give children, wanting to givetheir life to Christ, and after
the sermon the pastor said to mebe you.
Now this pastor is not anyonewho would try to bring people
into the ministry unless heabsolutely saw it On the low I
don't think he wanted to be init, and so when he said that, I
took it very seriously.

(54:23):
I went back to my team.
I'm like you know, can we curbthe lyrics?
Right, and they're like wealready have a Lauryn Hill.
I'm like, yeah, but what youhave me saying, right, I'm on
this mic like pull my hair alittle bit while I'm rubbing the
pole.
It's almost like you're fuckingmy soul and I'm like I can't
say that no more.
And so I left, I left, and thepeople that remained are very

(54:52):
successful in their industryright now music, execs and all.
So I really connect with you onthat hip hop theology piece.
I think we should co-writesomething.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
Well, this hip hop thing too.
Something on Harlem.
I say this all the time If Iwasn't so saved, I would have
been the greatest female MC ofall time.
Listen Period.
Stop playing with me.
We're starting to launch myhip-hop career.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
It's like the life, the things you have to I won't
say have to, but the things youdo to stay creative and the
things that you do.
In a studio environment is veryhard to do and do ministry.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
The lives are very hard to do and I also, you know,
even though I joke, not joke,joke about that I also feel
deeply grateful for this path,because I do think it is true
that I probably would have triedto be a performer in that way

(55:54):
if it wasn't for my faith or thefaith of my youth no-transcript

(56:31):
something and the way that Ifelt like I was when I was
participating in this world inthis way as an MC.
It really forced me to get morecreative, like, well, who am I
then, if I am not the greatestfemale emcee to ever live?

Speaker 1 (56:48):
then who am?

Speaker 2 (56:50):
I, who am I, and and yeah, yeah, like I, I appreciate
, I appreciate hearing you saythat because it there.
There are dreams that I do feellike we've had to surrender and
I will say had to right.
Like I do feel like there aredreams that I do feel like we've
had to surrender and I will sayhad to right.
I do feel like there are dreamsthat we had to surrender in
order to really get to this path, you know, to this place in our

(57:10):
journey.
And it was like this elder atthe church I used to go to years
ago said you can either do itGod's way or you can do it God's
way.
That always tickled me everytime.
That's just a little bit coerced, just a little bit.
I'm thinking I'm about to get asecond option.
You could either do it God'sway or you could do it God's way

(57:31):
.
I think you gave a secondoption, but ain't that the truth
?
That you could have said no,I'm not going to do that.
I really love this.
This has given me access andpotential influence, et cetera,
et cetera.
My resources would be different.
I could be here at this pointin my life and you could have
did that, and I still believethat at some point it would have
came back around and God wouldhave been like you could do it

(57:53):
my way, or you could do it myway and snatched it.
Here we are, here we are.
So, yeah, I appreciate that Ifthat comes full circle.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
They invited me back into the studio in like 2009.
I was pregnant and I had to bein and out of that studio
because things that happens inthe studio.
And they asked me to sample mysermon and they had like a whole
amen corner of all these dudesthat was hiding behind me.
And I'm sampling my sermon to atrack that was supposed to be
for Fabulous, but the beatdidn't get cleared so the song

(58:20):
didn't go forward.
And I'm sampling my sermon to atrack that was supposed to be
for Fabulous, but the beatdidn't get cleared, so the song
didn't go forward.
But it comes full circle On thedocumentary.
I'm thinking about doing a rapsimilar to how Fresh Prince did
about Philly, so we'll see.
We'll see how it comes back.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
Please do, because your voice is giving us
something that we need.
That's what people say.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
That's what people say and this is why my lyrics
were so provocative Like youdon't understand, like the
things they would say in my ear,to get the voice they wanted.
All right, let's take a breakand go to some announcements.
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Ok, we are back Time for moreconversation with the amazing
Ebony Janice.
So we don't have a lot of timeand I have so much.

(01:01:45):
I wanted to ask you um, and I'mgrateful for this conversation
that is just moving with spiritand organically and just with
connection.
Um, but if I could just ask twomore questions what I think is
really pressing issues for theday, um, one on on uh state
violence against Black women andthe second question on voting,

(01:02:08):
and then connecting that to whatyou're saying about pain and
joy, then we'll conclude with arapid question and it's just.
I'll say a few words and youjust tell me what comes to mind,
we out, we out.
Okay, All right, so I just wantto.
We talked a lot about your bookand I wanted you to summarize it
, but I think you've done thatin your responses.

(01:02:29):
But I just want to reallyencourage our listeners to
purchase this book.
This book is reallygroundbreaking, formative,
well-written.
You don't want to put it downand I mean I do not say that
with no cap whatsoever, Likeit's no hyperbole.
I'm not like.

(01:02:49):
It is really like kudos to youfor really writing a solid book
that is.
That will be a staple that willshape lives.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Thank you, I received that and kudos to Spirit,
because sometimes I reread partsof that book and I'll be like
girl.
Did you plagiarize this?
Where did you get this from?
This is so good.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
That's when it gets good to you, right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
Yeah, like I Back to you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
Who wrote this girl?
This is good, good, it's good.
So the title of the book is Allthe Black Girls Are Activists,
and I want you to go get yourcopy today, or audio book,
however you, in whatever formyou want to purchase it, of
course, prioritize Black-ownedindependent bookstores, but if

(01:03:40):
you must, you can go otherplaces as well.
But whatever, you do, get thebook.
So just want to plug that in,and then I want to talk about
this presidential election.
Mm-hmm, okay.
So how does your book provide aframework to understand our
presidential election?
What are your thoughts orobservations about the role of

(01:04:02):
patriarchy and racism inresponse to the presidential
nomination to reelect DonaldTrump and the anticipated
nomination of Vice PresidentKamala Harris, an
African-American and South Asianwoman of color?

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
Yeah, I just said this actually recently on social
media that Audre Lorde you knowwho I quote several times in
the book as well, but Audre, ofcourse, because what am I
talking about without talkingabout Audre Lorde?
But Audre Lorde says Survivalis not theory.

(01:04:37):
And when that came to merecently and within the past
week or so that you know cameback to me, I'm like, yeah, we,
we got a lot of theory aboutwhat we should do and what we
need to be doing in this moment,but survival is not that.

(01:04:57):
Yeah, uh, I break down in thechapter in pursuit of authority.
Uh, and all the black girls areactivists.
I talk about this idea that Icall the range, which requires
theory, ethic and praxis.
And and so you know, theory iswonderful, we need it.
Hopefully, if you arepresenting theory, that means
you thought through, you havethought about this, maybe you've

(01:05:18):
even thought it through,meaning you didn't just think it
and just said it out loud, youtalked about it, just said it
out loud, you talked about it,you read a little bit, you
pulled from the elders.
You, you know, cite somesources.
Right, you thought about thistheory.
It's wonderful, we need it.
It moves us forward because itcauses us to be thinking about
how would we implement this?
What would this look like?
What is the actual, what wouldour ethic, what would our

(01:05:41):
conduct, how would we, you know,in order to exist in this way?
And then, what is the practiceLike?
How do we take this theory andput it into practice?
And so, very often, especiallyin these last, you know, it's
just been a week and some changenow since you know, kamala has
been pushed to this point whereshe's likely going to be the
president-elect for theDemocratic Party.

(01:06:04):
That what do we do?
You know what are we doing?
Where do we go from here?
And is this something that wereally want?
Are we getting the same of?
You know what would have beeneither way?
You know either way.
And can we throw our vote away?
You know, in any way, shape,form or fashion meaning, I'm not

(01:06:28):
voting for that because I wantthis and I'm not going to get
this, but I'm still going togive this my vote, whatever.
And it just is that simple to me.
It really is that Audre Lordequote that theory that survival
is not a theory.
There has to be a way that wemake sure that people are still
going to be able to have jobsthat people are still going to

(01:06:50):
be able to have, be in the race,you know, be in the in the
fight, at the very least to havetheir reproductive rights, to
have bodily autonomy, that youknow that people are still going
to be able to have a vote inanother four years, right, that
that survive.
Survival is not just theory.

(01:07:10):
It's a lot of great theory thatpeople are presenting, but the
likelihood and this is my closeto that, yeah, I say this all
the time that we want to dowhatever it is that we have to
do to get to peace the fastest,there's a way in which we could
fight and continue to fight thesystem, and I do think that that

(01:07:30):
is important.
I do think that you knowdemanding policy, you know to
not just be touted but toactually be implemented, right,
like, I do think that the fightis an ongoing fight.
But what do we have to do to getto peace the fastest?
And I think that that the fightis an ongoing fight, but what do
we have to do to get to peacethe fastest?
And I think that that survivalconversation is a part of it.
Right, I'm saying somethingwithout saying it, obviously,
but what is it that we have todo to make sure that, on January

(01:07:53):
21st, you niggas still got ajob, right, right, and that
there is still a place for us toeven be thinking about our
wellness and our wholeness andwe not just back in this tight
knot of?
You know what it felt like forus to be in a deeper way, and an
even more deep, in an even morestrategic way than it was.

(01:08:14):
You know what, eight, four,eight years ago, right, do we
want to go back to that?
So, thinking about survival andI'm thinking about what does,
what would we have to do to getthe feast the fastest and that
that part of our journey may nottake us directly to the our
highest imagination possible,but that is how we get to our

(01:08:34):
highest imagination possible, isthat we, you know we, we think
about survival and we walk inthat direction.

Speaker 1 (01:08:40):
I've received that survival is not a theory.
It's also not a thoughtexperiment right Life and death
situations.
This is not time to startpracticing your thought
experiments right.
Yes, we have a two-party system.
Yes, it's not the best idealapproach to democracy right.
And yes, it forces us intochoosing the lesser between two

(01:09:04):
evils right.
But when we think about it'seither elect Trump right, or buy
into this two-party systemright.
It's not the time to starttalking about alternatives when
we like a hundred days out right.
The beauty about organizing isthe methodological approach to

(01:09:28):
building grassroots base right,and a program that's going to
get us to amass the power weneed to change the system right.
That doesn't happen overnight.
It's not to suggest that peopleare, but I think to all of a
sudden, you know, put a lot ofenergy into a third party party

(01:09:48):
option a hundred days beforeelection and we didn't hear
about it, you know, in January,february, right, it's just.
It feels for real.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Yes, Keep it real If a third party was going to win
In the history of the UnitedStates of America government,
yeah, in the in the last 50years, right, like if a third
party was going to win, it's.
It's really an idea and I loveit.
I love the idea, but you know,the was it.

(01:10:21):
Ross Perot came the closest toactually gathering the largest
amount of votes in the historyof a third party candidate and
got and got none of the votesfrom the electoral college Zero.
So the?
So do you fools, listen tomusic or do you just skim

(01:10:42):
through it?
Like you can't just again havethis theory of if we could get a
third the electoral.
That's not the way ourpresidential elections even work
.
That Hillary Clinton has proventhat you could get the largest
number of votes and still notget all the votes from the
electoral college.
So, guys and girls andeverybody else that don't

(01:11:07):
believe they want to be a guy orgirl and I don't mean that in
an inappropriate way, I was justbeing gender non-inclusive when
I started with guys and I kindof keep going.
So, but yeah, everybody, that'snot the way this works and we
need to acknowledge that.
The fact that the, the, the thequickest way for us to get to
some peace is to not go to adictator dictatorship.

(01:11:28):
Right, that is the quickest wayfor us to get to even just a
little bit of relief.
And the last thing I say aboutthat, too, is that people talk
about a symbolic victory.
Losses are not symbolic.

Speaker 1 (01:11:40):
Yeah, yeah, especially when their freedom is
on the line.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
We don't need a symbolic victory, we don't need
a symbolic loss either.
They don't be symbolic.
And so there's so much on theline for all of us, and you know
, listening to what does it meanfor us?
To you know, both demand, Ithink we have a greater chance.
People are talking aboutKamala's statement after the

(01:12:10):
nigga from Israel was cutting uprecently in Congress.
And I thought that it was trash.
I agree with that.
I didn't love it.
I don't like the idea oftalking about burning flags when
we're talking in comparison toa genocide, right, so I didn't
love that.
But if we're going to be real,who do we think we have a

(01:12:31):
greater chance of having aceasefire?
With?
The person who is not going tohave a ceasefire or the person
who has actually, out of theirmouth, said ceasefire?

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
at this point right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
So this is not a there is no perfect way for us
to be in relationship with this,but at the very least, when we
think of this as survival, thatgives us something really to
work with, and I think that'simportant for us, and this is,
you know, even framing this inthe sense of, you know, this
idea of all the Black girls areactivists All the Black girls

(01:13:01):
are activists isn't suggestingthat we are all going to be
marching to Selma.
We are all organizers.
We are all going to be doingpolitical commentary, right?
That's not the suggestion.
Going to be doing politicalcommentary, right?
That's not the suggestion.
Really, the suggestion is thatif the Black girls don't do
nothing else but show up as ourmost authentic selves, we have
done enough.
What's inside of that, though,is it's also saying that Black

(01:13:23):
women, our elders, have beentelling us what to do and the
way to go for years.
And if we really could centerthat is womanist, pass the
microphone to the marginalizedvoices, right.
If we could center the wisdomof our elders before they become
our ancestors.
Let's not wait until ToniMorrison bell hooks, right?
Let's not wait until my Angelou, let's not wait until they're

(01:13:45):
our ancestors before we saymaybe you know what you're
talking about, june Jordan,maybe you know what you're
talking.
Let's not wait until AngelaDavis and may God give her many
more years, right?
Let's not wait until shebecomes our ancestor before we
actually start listening to her.
And again, I'm not saying thatAngela Davis is saying go vote
for Kamala Harris, but I amsaying that, angela Davis, that
the elders have given us so muchwisdom and tool and insight on

(01:14:05):
what it would look like for usto actually walk into a more
liberative future.

Speaker 1 (01:14:09):
Yes, yes.
And I also just want to say onemore thing, and I think this
election piece is reallyimportant is I talked to a lot
of my day ones from from fromHarlem Right, and I get a lot of
pushback from from black men inmy community, and so I just
want to encourage us right to bemore than meme philosophers, to

(01:14:34):
be more uh, you know, to bemore than thumb activists, right
, um, and so I need people to goand do their research.
You cannot get behind memesthat have not been vetted right
or corroborated in any way, andthe fact is there's a lot of
fake news and false information,misinformation, in the memes

(01:14:56):
that are circulating on socialmedia.
So, to set the record straight,we've seen more and more the
true narrative come to surfacethat Kamala Harris was not the
worst thing that happened toBlack men and the carceral state
Exactly that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
If you look at her tenure, it was actually a drop
in marijuana convictions rightand that she created programming
to even for the harder, morethan just marijuana.
She created programming to tryto support recidivism.
She created programming to tryto make sure that you know there
was so, so many of those.
The worst things that we knowabout Kamala have absolutely

(01:15:31):
been debunked, and if you'rewilling to go find the
information and this is what Iwould say to the Black men in
Harlem and the Black men allover the United States of
America Many of you certainlyalready support this progressive
journey that we're on, thesememes and this misinformation is
when have Black womenhistorically ever led you astray

(01:15:58):
?
Come on, why, all of a sudden,now?

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
It is as if we look for any opportunity to show how
much America hates Black women.
Honey Right.
And the thing is no matter howbad you treat Black women, we
still Show up for you, we showup, we visit you in prison, we
post bail.
Sometimes we don't take you tocourt for child support, right,

(01:16:29):
you know what I mean.
We show up, we even windemocracy for you to court for
child support, right, and we,you know what I mean we, we show
up, we, we even win democracyfor you.
Look at Stacey Abrams, rightLike we, we handle it.
And we look at the first day,at what was it?
Three hours after Kamalaannounced her you know wanting
to to replace Joe, joe Biden,black women got on a call 44,000

(01:16:54):
deep and raised over a milliondollars and the gag is that call
has existed for four years, soblack women never stopped
getting on that call and that isthe organizing we're talking
about right.
It's the consistent presence.
So when it's time to get ready,you don't even have to do that,
because you stayed ready.

Speaker 2 (01:17:12):
I started smiling and giggling when you started going
down a list of all the thingsthat we do for black men.
Look at all we do for you,because I thought about the
inappropriate things.
What do we do for you?
Listen?

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
what are you doing?
You know our body is hurtingheadache, cramps.

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):
And still show up.
I do think that's so importantreally.
I've never talked about thispublicly in this way, but I do
want to have a revival serviceof sorts for our relationships
with Black men, particularly asBlack know, as black women, as

(01:17:53):
those of us that identify asblack women, because social
media really has seemed tohighlight or give a platform to
um, a lot of anti, a lot ofblack men who, uh, say they love
Blackness, but their actionsand their behavior and their
words really speak to thecontrary as it pertains to Black

(01:18:18):
women.
And, in the meantime, althoughBlack women have been doing more
intentional work aroundequality, that has never, never
been, never, ever.
Black feminist, you know,having like black feminists,
black womanists have never beendoing the work of excluding,
excluding black men from our.

(01:18:39):
It's not possible, was it, joeMorgan said?
And when chicken has come hometo roost, I always knew my
feminism would be different fromwhite women's because they
don't call their men brother.
To this day, no matter how deepour work is, we never, have
ever separated ourselves.
Even when we be like you, ashyniggas, you are still my ashy

(01:19:00):
niggas.
We never, ever, separatedourselves from you, and I think
that there needs to be moreconversation where we say you
know how much we need each otherand that you know the the.
The ways in which social mediahas created like this, seemingly
created.
This divide in language is veryproblematic.

(01:19:22):
But I'm saying all that just togo back to what I said, because
, historically, when have blackwomen ever failed you
Historically?

Speaker 1 (01:19:29):
That's the mic.
Drop Historically, and youdon't even go to, don't go to
the civil rights movement, justjust go to your mama, grandmama.
Last week, last week.

Speaker 2 (01:19:39):
Last week you needed to buy some boxers.
You needed to buy some boxersand some.
It was a cousin, maybe right,that's right, right.

Speaker 1 (01:19:49):
So thank you for for that.
And I want to say, on the topicof black women, particularly,
violence.
So we talked about patriarchy,racism, but I want to talk about
state violence and I'm thinkingabout Sonia Massey.
Sonia Massey, our sister inSpringfield Illinois.

(01:20:09):
For those who are listening,this is a trigger warning of
violence.
I just want to give you amoment to prepare yourselves,
but Sonia Massey in Springfield,Illinois was gunned down by
deputies, posing no threat, notpresenting herself as a danger

(01:20:32):
in any way.
In fact, she was in her home,she called for help and in an
encounter with deputies, she hada pot of boiling water on the
stove.
And she went to, at theinstructions of the deputy, to
take the pot of boiling wateroff the stove.
And as she was doing that, adeputy started to retreat and

(01:20:55):
she inquired why.
And he said because you haveboiling water.
And she looked at him and shesaid I rebuke you.
And immediately he became vexedand he drew his weapon and said
that he would shoot her and infact he did.
The bullet went through her eye, out her head, as she knelt
down with her hands up and saidI'm sorry.

(01:21:17):
And so when we think about thiscontrast, this sharp contrast
between the dehumanization andmurder of Massey and the
ascendancy or the rise of VicePresident Kamala Harris.
What do we do with this reality, what it means to be Black
woman in America?
Right, and I want to pair thatwith what you wrote about

(01:21:41):
invoking the ancestors Zora,Neale Hurston and said if you're
silent about your pain, they'llkill you and say you enjoyed it
.
And this is in yourconversation about joy in the
mid of pain, where you say if mypain is the only thing that
gets you to move, then I'llalways have to be dying for
change to happen.
So what do you do with joy whenpain never goes away?

(01:22:04):
What do you do with joy whenthese injustices, this violence
against Black women's bodiesnever go away?
And then, finally, what I wantto map onto that is in your
response if all Black girls areactivists, what, in the midst of
state violence of Black women,what does it mean, with all

(01:22:24):
Black girls being abolitionists?
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
I want us in this moment, and always in these
moments which is a sad thing tosay, but always in these moments
to to hold ourselves even moresacred, to lean even more deeply
into your making this, thisjuxtaposition of Sonia Massey in
this moment and, simultaneously, kamala Harris in this moment,

(01:22:52):
and what do we do with that?
And I want us to lean even moreinto To how, how brilliant it
is to be a black girl, to how,to, how the world moves you know
, really, whether it gives uscredit or not, right, the world
is thriving right now off ofBlack girl.

(01:23:15):
You know everythingness, youknow off of the way that we show
up in our struggle and in ourthriving.
And I want us to lean even moreinto that.
And I know that that's a verydifficult reality, because I
talk about this juxtaposition of, like, deep grief and sweetness

(01:23:36):
.
In the book, which you know veryquickly, a little background
story All the Black Girls AreActivists was originally going
to be a romance novel because Iwanted to.
I had this experience severalyears ago.
I was the guy that I met inHarlem.
We were at this point we're inlong distance relationship.
He was in Harlem.
Still, I was living in NewOrleans and we were going to
have a FaceTime date this nightand, um, and it was the day that

(01:24:00):
the young sister was murderedby the police in Columbus, ohio,
and so you got these two blackpeople who, who want to just be
in love, on the phone tonight,you know, caked up.
But we are having to processwhat it means for us to, you
know, be taken away in this way,and for our children and for

(01:24:20):
our little cousins and for our,you know, our siblings, right,
and so we didn't end up havingthe FaceTime date that night.
I was going to write, I wantedto write about black love in the
midst of all this, but then Irealized, along the as I was
outlining it, that there was alot of theory that I really
wanted to flesh out before I,like I needed to talk about
softness before I really wrote alove story, or I needed to talk

(01:24:40):
about my journey to softness,or my pursuit in loudness, or
like I need to talk about thesethings before I got to the love.
And so, as I reflect back onthat time, we didn't end up
having the FaceTime date, butI've thought about it so much
because I'm writing this bookthat's very inspired by kind of
this moment in time of this is2020, when, you know, every
white person is Martin LutherKing and they have a million

(01:25:02):
dollars for whatever it is thatall the Black people want to do
and, simultaneously, all thisviolence is happening George
Floyd and the baby in Columbus,right, like all this violence is
happening.
So what is the both?
And I, as I reflect back onthat, I wish we would have
leaned into our love.
I wish I wish that we wouldhave had the FaceTime date still
right.
We felt we felt like it wouldnot be appropriate for us to be

(01:25:25):
humping on the camera tonight.
We felt we felt that it wouldbe most appropriate for us to
just rest, and we did, andthat's good.
But I wish that we would haveleaned even harder into the love
in that time.
I wish that we would have spentmore time witnessing each other
.
I wish that we would have spentmore time creating whatever it
was that we were going to createin that moment.

(01:25:49):
And that is what happens.
I think.
What could?
What is happening for us?
Because we're in this dualityof both grieving this very awful
thing that happened to Sonia,because we literally know that
we could be that hashtag any day.
There is no anything thatsparks it.
Like, if I don't wear a hoodie,if I don't carry Skittles, if I

(01:26:09):
don't have my tea, if I don't,if I walk at this time, if I'm
in the daytime, if I don't weara hoodie, if I don't carry
Skittles, if I don't have my tea, if I don't, if I walk at this
time, if I'm in the daytime, ifI don't play a violin, if I
don't smoke the month Right.
There's nothing we can do tonot.
But what we can do in themeantime is lean even deeper
into our sacredness to make surethat our life is not just an
activism that takes us out ofour body, to make sure that our
life is not just marching allthe time, is not just positions

(01:26:32):
all the time, that there is sucha distraction for that to be
our lives that here we are,generations after our elders and
ancestors from the civil rightsmovement.
Here we are generations afterwhat our elders did in rebelling
against slavery, right.
Here we are all thesegenerations later and we still

(01:26:53):
marching instead of.
You know being Buddha and I'mnot saying to not, obviously I
wrote a book about.
You know activism and what itmeans, like defining a freedom.
But you know, baby Shugs andBeloved said the only grace you
can have is the grace you canimagine.
And the grace that I want us toimagine is a grace in which our
lives are beautiful andglorious and we really

(01:27:16):
prioritize that and we don'tfeel guilty about prioritizing
taking care of ourselves andbecoming our hopeful selves.
I have other, I think, moreprophetic language to say in a
longer format, more propheticlanguage to say about what it
means when you lean deeper intoyour softness, what happens,
what manifests when you leandeeper into your pleasure, what

(01:27:38):
is able to be created when youlean deeper into you know,
focusing on your wholeness andnot just you know, and not just
this one fraction of who we arethat none of that is to minimize
it.
That is to say, there'ssomething beautiful that's
created.
And the one thing that I'll sayabout that and I'm done with
this sermon is because, in myimagination, what could come of
that?

(01:27:59):
As we lean deeper into ourpleasure, we think about all the
things that need to be in placein order for us to exist in
this safe, pleasurable,soft-seated reality.
Right, and in thinking aboutthat, I am a Black woman that
lives in a predominantly whiteneighborhood and I have a
predominantly white HOA and I'mliving in not just a

(01:28:21):
predominantly white neighborhood.
I live in a predominantly white, very rural part of North
Carolina.
My parents, my nephews and mymiddle sister live eight minute
drive away from me.
So thankfully for that and andthere are other people that I
know around that, when it comesdown to it, the I would never

(01:28:43):
call the police ever.
I have a whole committeecommunity coalition that exists,

(01:29:06):
that me as a single Black womanin this very, very, very, very
white space, that if somebodyeven was trying to, if the alarm
went off at my house, my firstcall would not be 911.
My first call would be to getup here now, right, get up here
now, right, and so that.
But the the reason why I canlean into that is because I've
leaned into how do I exist?
How do I have my land?
How do I have my garden?
How do I have these realitiesfor myself?
How can I create that and stillbe safe amidst a Confederate

(01:29:26):
flag a couple blocks away, right?
How do I have that and still bewell?
It is that I've co-created areality within this community
that supports that, that I canstay seated, I can stay soft, I
can stay well, and they comingwith the blicky if they pull up.
You know what I'm saying.
Like it is what it is.
They coming, and so thatdoesn't take away from us giving

(01:29:48):
ourselves the space to grievethis violence that happens to us
on an ongoing basis.
That still.
That, however, does say that wedon't want another Sonia Massey
experience because we want thenext I don't want to use that
language.
We don't want another SoniaMassey experience because we
want the next black girl who isworried that somebody's breaking

(01:30:08):
into her home, to have acoalition, a community, a whole
cohort of places to call andpeople going to show up.
It's not going to be.
Oh, I got to go to see aboutthis girl again.
I'm going to see about thisgirl again.
That's the reality that we'vecreated and and I invite again,
I invite this pursuit ofsoftness.
I invite black men into.

(01:30:28):
I'm writing the book to blackgirls, but I invite black men
into that softness reality, intothat reality, because the only
way that we can have it isbecause we've imagined it and
you've co-created it.
You've co-imagined andco-dreamed it with us as well.

Speaker 1 (01:30:42):
Yeah yes, mic drop no .
But I think what you'redescribing is also an
abolitionist project.
But I think what you'redescribing is also an
abolitionist project.
Right, this ideal of softness,of thriving, of not just living
to survive, of not just existingamid violence.
Right, and also this radicalmove toward dreaming beyond you

(01:31:08):
know the direness of our realityand believing that we can
achieve it together as acommunity.
Right, that police do not makeus any safer and we keep saying
that as abolitionists.
Right, and unfortunately, soniaMassey is just another example
of why that is true.
The evidence it is the evidencethat policing does not make us

(01:31:30):
any safer.
It is the evidence thatpolicing does not make us any

(01:31:55):
safer.
But communities right,community safety is a thing that
we can live within communitiesof care and live longer.
Right Live our we need iswithin us and it creates a
sustainability beyond the needfor any other system to respond,
and so, yeah, thank you forlaying that groundwork.
What I also like is and I'llconclude with this work what I

(01:32:16):
also like is and I'll concludewith this on page 62, you say
everything about me is good.
That is who I am is good, and Idon't have to equate my body or
my desires or as inherentlysinful or wrong.
When we look at the societythat we've inherited today, it
is a society that hasconstructed Blackness and Black
womanhood as inherently bad, andthat's a theological project

(01:32:37):
right.
But this counter narrative isthat we're not just, that there
is no original sin and MichaelFox says this that in fact we
are original blessings, and thisoriginal blessings to me really
harnesses this phrase.
That you're saying is thateverything about me is good, and

(01:32:59):
I hope that's the takeaway forour listeners of all the things
we talked about the complexities, the nuances, the beauty, the
terror of blackness, of blackwomanhood that at the end of the
day, that we are created asgood Period Period.

Speaker 2 (01:33:24):
I won't belabor this.
I just want to say that I saidthis earlier that when I was
having this download from thepulpit, as I was in my
theological shift, that of JesusChrist, theological shift, that
uh of Jesus Christ, that thatJesus Christ is trustworthy,
that Jesus Christ in flesh is issuch a is such a beautiful uh,
uh companion.
It's such a beautiful examplefor me, because Christ is the

(01:33:46):
manifested glory of God in theflesh, as am I.
I am not separate from Christ.
I am literally the manifestedglory of God in this earth.
I am one portion of God'spersonality and that is why
everything about me is good,because I am the proof of God.

(01:34:08):
I am the proof of God as I leaninto that nobody can't tell.
This is the reason why I don'treally do a lot of fleshing out
my faith for people who arestruggling with their, whatever
they think about what it is thatI'm doing, because my faith is
so personal and so intimate,because I am one portion of
God's.

(01:34:28):
Of course we're not going tohave a cookie cutter
relationship with God.
Of course you cannot ABCDEFGwhat our relationship with God
is going to look like, because Iam one portion of the proof of
God, and so I think that that ishow I certainly want to close
with and affirm and amen whatyou were just saying, that A lot

(01:34:51):
of what is supposed to be wrongabout me, sin about me, bad
about me, even what brought meto Ifa, a lot of how I've
decolonized my faith and dealtwith my own anti-Blackness as it
pertains to Africanspirituality and Black religion
right, and Blackness inside ofreligion, is that I've
acknowledged that me myself inthis journey needs to be my

(01:35:13):
whole self more than I needanything else, and that is going
to look radically different forme than it might look for
others, but we can.
We can use these same tools toget there, and that, you know,
may very well start by us at thevery least acknowledging I am
God in flesh.

Speaker 1 (01:35:27):
Yes, and I am good.

Speaker 2 (01:35:29):
And I am very good it's in the word you got.
To read your word.

Speaker 1 (01:35:33):
That's right.
That's right, that's right.
Thank you so much, ebony andJanice.
Before we go, I want to havefun and practice joy as
resistance.
So I'm going to give you aseries of phrases, words, and I
want you to tell me quickly,just rapidly, the first thought
that comes to mind.
You ready?
That's scary.

(01:35:53):
Go ahead.
Black women and femmes, us.

Speaker 2 (01:36:02):
Activism Praise.
Favorite food Chocolate cake.

Speaker 1 (01:36:07):
Kendrick Lamar, the homie 90s hip hop Therick Lamar,
the homie.
90s hip hop the best Harlem.

Speaker 2 (01:36:18):
Where I found my love .

Speaker 1 (01:36:20):
I want to talk about that offline because you've been
bitching it a lot.
I'm a chaplain, I'm a trainedlistener and when people repeat
something, you got to go in onit.

Speaker 2 (01:36:28):
Move back to Molly Ancestor.

Speaker 1 (01:36:30):
Okay, okay, okay, ancestor.

Speaker 2 (01:36:34):
Emma Jane Baxley.

Speaker 1 (01:36:36):
Ashe.

Speaker 2 (01:36:40):
Cannabis.

Speaker 1 (01:36:41):
Give me some Orgasms.
Give me some, that's right.
Toxic trait.

Speaker 2 (01:36:49):
Reading romance novels when I'm supposed to be
doing work.
God Me trait.
Reading romance novels when I'msupposed to be doing work.
God Me Church.
Miss it sometimes.
Abolition the truth, dreamMyself free, create Because I'm

(01:37:11):
God.
Vote nigga, stop playing thatpart.

Speaker 1 (01:37:17):
Vote, vote, vote.
Thank you for joining thisconversation on Abolitionist
Sanctuary podcast with ourspecial guest, ebony Janice.
Please download and share onall platforms.
Again, I am your host, reverendDr Nakia Smith-Robert, founder
and executive director ofAbolitionist Sanctuary.
Find us on YouTube, instagram,facebook and download our social

(01:37:38):
mobile app bringing togetherabolitionists and people who
love freedom.
Also, enroll in our courses andbecome certified at
abolitionacademycom.
Don't forget to become a memberand join our mailing list at
abolitionistsanctuaryorg.
As we conclude this episode,remember that abolition is not

(01:37:58):
only a practice, but it is a wayof life, and for me, abolition
is our religion.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Thank you for having me.

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