November 20, 2025 • 27 mins
In this enlightening episode, we welcome Ken Pitts, a seasoned mortgage lending expert with over 35 years of experience. Join us as we explore the intricacies of reverse mortgages—a financial tool that can help the sandwich generation support their aging parents while ensuring financial stability. Ken shares his insights on the misconceptions surrounding reverse mortgages, the importance of understanding this financial product, and how it can be a game-changer for retirees looking to access their home equity without the burden of monthly payments.
Quotes from Ken Pitts:
"This is just to let you know, it's another tool that you can actually utilize in your financial toolbox."
Key Takeaways:
- Understanding the difference between forward and reverse mortgages: how they work and who they benefit.
- How reverse mortgages can provide financial relief for retirees struggling with expenses and inflation.
- The importance of age, home value, and current mortgage balance in determining eligibility for a reverse mortgage.
Chapters:
- 00:00 - Understanding Mortgage Finance
- 01:32 - Understanding Reverse Mortgages
- 10:34 - Understanding Reverse Mortgages: Key Considerations
- 16:53 - Understanding Reverse Mortgages and Financial Planning
- 19:31 - Understanding Reverse Mortgages and Client Needs
- 24:33 - Exploring Culinary Passion and Financial Wisdom
Learn more about Ken and his work at:
For more episodes and financial insights, visit https://aboutthatwallet.com
Disclaimer:
The information provided in this podcast is for educational purposes only and should not be considered financial advice. Please consult with a qualified financial advisor before making any decisions regarding reverse mortgages or other financial products.
Episode 318
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Anthony Weaver (00:00):
This episode is sponsored by
kineticwealthbook.com.
>> Ken Pitts (00:04):
Okay, so we're all used to I need to buy a house.
I need to get some type of financing to buy that
house. We call that a mortgage finance loan. It's
going to be a loan that's secured by a home. And
so you'll use that. Maybe you're buying a $500,000
house and you can put 50,000 down, but you need to
finance 450,000 to make the purchase happen.
(00:24):
That's called a forward mortgage. And. And when
you do a forward mortgage, you're expected to
make.
>> Anthony Weaver (00:32):
Welcome everybody back to another exciting show of
the about that Wallet podcast. I'm your host,
Anthony Weaver, and we are here to help the
sandwich generation build strong financial habits
so that they can talk about money, spend money,
and enjoy their money with confidence. Today I
have somebody who has been working pretty much in
(00:53):
mortgage lending as long as I've been alive who
stressed the importance of understanding the
mortgage process and has an awesome book that I
think you all would actually like to listen into.
And I'm gonna let him take care of that part of
it. So welcome to the show. Ken Pitts.
>> Ken Pitts (01:10):
How you been, Anthony? Thanks for having me.
Thanks for reminding me how old I am, too.
>> Anthony Weaver (01:16):
Uh, I mean, you know, you've been doing this for
so long, though. I mean, I got to give you your
props because a lot of people usually give up on
their jobs very quickly. Like, you know, the same
with, especially with a profession, uh, 35 years
in county and county.
Okay, so, but one of the things we want to dive
into today, which is talking about reverse
(01:38):
mortgages, like, I've heard about it, I've seen
people get, quote, um, unquote shafted from it.
And I just want to hear from your expertise about
it, like, what makes it so appealing to you.
>> Ken Pitts (01:52):
And that's a great way to start. I think what I
found, Anthony, over my years, both offering that
mortgage as a financial tool for folks in
retirement, but also hearing a lot of the
misconceptions. Listen, when I wrote this book, I
didn't angle it just towards my end user clients.
I also angled it towards financial planners
(02:14):
because they were as misinformed as my clients
were. And, uh, it's been an eye opener for them
as, as much as it's been for my clients. And I
just think it comes from a lot of misinformation.
And also I think, you know, any new product that
comes into the, you know, into the sphere of
(02:35):
financing oftentimes goes through a couple of
iterations before it gets perfected. And this
product is no different. I would say that in 2014
there were major revisions made to the product
that made it a much more consumer friendly and I
think a lot safer as a product. Um, and when I say
(02:55):
safer, it's not so much safer to use, but safe
from people in my industry who misuse it with
clients. And, uh, I think some of those things
have made it a better product. But overall, I
really wrote the book just really to give people a
good background so they could understand, hey,
this is what a reverse mortgage is. Here's how it
(03:15):
can apply in your financial plan. Use it, don't
use it, doesn't matter. Just wanted you to know
it's out there. And I think, and I know that, uh,
your, your podcast hits that sandwich generation
and that's where a lot of my leads come from
because they're trying to figure out how to help
their parents and they're like, really?
>> Anthony Weaver (03:33):
I didn't think about that.
>> Ken Pitts (03:34):
What can my parent, you know, my, my parents are
running short during retirement and, but they have
a house. How can we make that work for them? And I
think that's probably one of the more refreshing
things that I've seen out of this is that a lot
of, a lot of the referrals I get are actually
people even younger. I'm 62, they're younger than
me. But they're trying to figure out a way to help
(03:57):
their parents who maybe are, you know, they're
just finding they're not making ends meet with
inflation and, and costs of, of goods going up.
>> Anthony Weaver (04:04):
Well, I mean, just keep going. I mean, you already
burned it out. Like, how could, how could some
people like, like me, who's preparing for my mom
to get ready for retirement, help them with this
process or at least educate them a little bit
more.
>> Ken Pitts (04:17):
Okay, so let, let's talk a little bit about, just
in general, how does, how does a reverse mortgage
work? Okay, so we're all used to, I need to buy a
house. I need to get some type of financing to buy
that house. We call that a mortgage finance loan.
It's going to be a loan that's secured by a home.
And so you'll use that. Maybe you're buying a
(04:39):
$500,000 house and you can put 50,000 down, but
you need to finance 450 to make the purchase
happen. That's called a forward mortgage. And when
you do a forward mortgage, you're expected to make
a monthly payment. And that monthly payment is
going to pay interest and pay Principal towards
the loan. Depending on most first time buyers, for
(05:00):
example, get 30 year terms because they're
affordable. So they'll spread the payments out
over 30 years. They are front end loaded with
interest. So for the first 15 years you're mostly
paying interest and then after that you're mostly
paying principal. So a reverse is the complete
opposite of that. It's a mortgage, it's secured by
a house, but what it's enabling you to do is, is
(05:23):
go and grab all that equity that you build up over
time and bring it back out. And you can bring it
back out in a number of different ways, but it
still functions like a mortgage. There's interest
that's on the loan. The difference is in the
reverse. Instead of making a payment like you do
(05:44):
on a forward, that interest gets deferred and gets
added to the loan. Um, that loan balance is going
to go up over time, but you have no monthly
payment for it. But you have access to the money.
And that's the beauty of utilizing your house
after retirement. You're able to actually tap into
the long term equity that you built out in that
(06:05):
house and be able to get access to it. And there's
real formulas that really govern this loan. And
what I mean by that is if you were going to go buy
a house, we have to make sure you can afford the
monthly payment. And so you have to make payments.
You know, can you make the payments of principal
and interest, can you make your car note, your
(06:25):
student loan, whatever else is out there. In a
reverse mortgage you don't really qualify that
way. We just need to make sure that you can carry
the expenses of the house. That's it. It's called
a residual income calculation. And so when we're
doing that, it's one of those calculations that is
really easy to qualify for. So the reverse is a
(06:47):
very easy to qualify for when, which is again
opposite of the forward mortgage, which is a lot
harder to qualify for. But it was started by the
federal government. There were actuarialists and
gerontologists who knew people are living longer,
they're going to outlive their money. We got to
figure out a way to give them some alternative
(07:08):
source of income besides Social Security and a
pension. And that's what really how it all
developed.
>> Anthony Weaver (07:16):
So what that, what does it separate between the
reverse mortgage versus a HELOC then?
>> Ken Pitts (07:21):
So a uh, home equity line of credit, if you use
it, you will pay interest on it. You're going to
have to come out of pocket and make a monthly
payment on the reverse mortgage, you never make a
payment when you pass away. There's three trigger
points on a reverse mortgage. If you die, your
house sells, it pays off the loan. No different
(07:42):
than a regular mortgage. Exactly the same. If you
go into long term care for more than 12 months,
you need to sell the house and pay off the loan.
Because what we know from actuarials are if you go
into a home for 12 months or more, you're not
coming back out. Okay. And then the third piece is
you got to keep up on your taxes and insurance.
(08:03):
Because if you don't keep up your taxes and
insurance, and this would be no different than a
regular 400 mortgage you're going to get, you're
going to have an issue where you could be
foreclosed on for taxes. And if that's the case,
you've breached, you know, your agreement with the
lender because you're not taking care of the taxes
and insurance. So those are the three what we call
trigger points where you're going to, where you
(08:24):
got to do something to pay off the loan. Outside
of that, you make no monthly payment. Interest
defers over time. And from an actuarial
standpoint, they really designed the product so
that there's some equity left over at the end and
that equity goes to the estate. And that's, you
know, your kids, if your kids are named in the
estate or um, you know, whatever. But if you have
(08:47):
a, you have a couple that are, you know, a husband
and wife that own the house and they're both on
the loan, if one of them dies, the other one just
stays in the house, it just keeps on rolling. So
there's. So it's opposite of what we know about a
forward mortgage.
>> Anthony Weaver (09:02):
Yeah. And it gets me thinking more questions of.
Well, you say there's no payments, but the
interest get accrued on the back end. So. But we
can make payments if, like as if we wanted to, to
go ahead on and pay off whatever we borrowed
against the home, if that makes sense.
>> Ken Pitts (09:19):
You're always open to make payments on.
>> Anthony Weaver (09:21):
The loan, but they're going to take some money.
>> Ken Pitts (09:24):
But uh, but the real, the real application is
where most people need it. They need it because
they're falling a little bit short. Monthly. It's
the same they get, they have more month than money
and they're using that to tap, they're using their
house to tap into the equity to make up that
difference. When you're using it in that way,
generally speaking, you're probably not going to
(09:44):
pay it down, but you can you can. I mean, you
know, some people maybe have a spouse, she passes
away, leaves you life insurance. You could use
that life insurance to pay down the loan and open
up that line again, keep using it, you know, so it
does give you some flexibility in that regard.
>> Anthony Weaver (10:01):
So what does that allow the, um, the borrower. So
say if they want to consolidate it debt, they can
go down and use this particular reverse mortgage.
But how do you kick it off then? So say if
somebody just say, like, hey, my strategy, my
financial strategy. This is me. I don't have any
of their assets, I don't have any other
(10:22):
investments. I really don't want to tap into my
401k. But I do have a property have, uh, like
least more than 80.
Do you need to have at least a certain percentage
before you can start this reverse mortgage thing?
>> Ken Pitts (10:34):
M. So typically a reverse. So you have to be age.
If you're using the FHA version, for example, you
have to be 62 years or older to begin to use it.
Generally speaking, it's three factors that go
into it, what your age is. So we look at your
birth date, we look at the value of the home, and
(10:54):
we look to see if you owe anything currently on
the house. Those three things will determine
whether this product's going to work for you or
not. And I. And it probably will make cognitive
sense as soon as I tell you the younger you are,
the less you can borrow. The older you are, the
more you could borrow. Because think about it,
(11:16):
this loan's growing over time. So the longer the
loan's going to be out there, the more it's going
to grow as you're using it and you're accruing
interest. So when typically, if you're trying to
take it out at age 62, 65, 68, you might get about
40% of the value of the house as a reverse
(11:36):
mortgage. But as you get into your 70s, and I've
done some for folks in their 80s and they're
getting more like 40, 45, 48% of the value of the
house based on today's interest. So if interest
rates drop, they give you more access to more
money because the loan's growing slower. So
there's. Those are two really important factors
(11:58):
outside of, okay, what's the house value, uh, when
we look into it. So it's looked at completely
different than a forward mortgage. Again, it's the
reverse. Everything's based on an actuarial of how
old you are, what the interest rates are, and what
the value of the house is.
>> Anthony Weaver (12:14):
Okay, does it matter what type of house? Because
I'm thinking of like, people who have condos,
double wides, um, or if they just have like, say
if they left you land and it's just kind of
hanging out, there ain't nothing going on with it,
but it's paid off. And like, does it matter what
type of asset?
>> Ken Pitts (12:32):
Good question. It has to be your primary
residence.
>> Anthony Weaver (12:35):
Okay.
>> Ken Pitts (12:36):
It can be a condo. It can even be a, uh, double
wide manufacturer, provided you own the land. And
single families. I've seen duplexes allowed,
triplexes, as long as you're living in one of the
units.
>> Anthony Weaver (12:47):
Oh, really? Okay, now you're peeking my interest.
Tell me more. Because with the, uh, with the
quadplexes, that would be great.
>> Ken Pitts (12:53):
Yeah. So, so if you, you know, I mean, if you,
like I've told my kids, and when you buy your
first sale, try and make it a duplex, somebody
else will pay your mortgage for you, right? So if
you were lucky enough to have done that, you're.
And you're living in that house that you're living
in, one unit, you rent the other unit that works
on a reverse mortgage. You know, as long as the
(13:13):
numbers make sense, right? Age, interest rate,
value of the house, if there's equity there, you
can go get it on a reverse. So. And you can use
this thing as a financial tool in so many
different ways. Like I'll give you three examples,
three basic examples. Let's say you're, you know,
68 years old, you still have a balance on your
(13:34):
mortgage, so you're making a monthly payment. What
if I can eliminate the monthly payment? What if I
have enough equity, I can knock that monthly
payment out. Well, if my principal and interest
payment is twelve hundred a month, and I knock
that twelve hundred dollar a month expense, guess
what? Now goes longer, my Social Security lasts
(13:54):
longer. Maybe my pension or my 401k draw. And
maybe I don't have to draw as much on my 401k as a
result of it. So, you know, those are really nice.
You know, just financial twists you can do just by
knocking that payment out. Now, I've had some
people who have looked at this as a bridge to hold
off Social Security. So they were looking at maybe
(14:16):
taking Social Security out at age 62 or 65, but if
you can wait till age 70, you can almost double
what Social Security will give you. So they had
all this equity in their house. And what we
discussed was, hey, what if you take what you
would have gotten at age 62 on Social Security,
(14:37):
what If you take that out of the house via reverse
mortgage for the next eight years, you don't have
a payment on it, but it gets you to age 70. And
now you've doubled your. If it's age 62, you
almost triple what your Social Security benefit
would be. So from age 70 on, they have
significantly more Social Security income. I mean,
(14:59):
that's, that's called a delay bridge. It's, you're
buying time by utilizing the equity in the house
within the reverse mortgage to get you there. So
that's, you know, that's another, uh, possible way
to do it. And the third is a way that a lot of
financial planners recommend. They recommend folks
have a home equity line of credit on their house
for emergency expenses. And I agree with that. I
(15:21):
think that's a good philosophy, because you don't
want to be smashing into your 401k because you got
to get a new car or you have, you know, a medical
expense that wasn't expected, and you're hitting
your 401k at the absolute worst possible time. You
know, markets are down or something like that.
You're losing, you know, on both ends, where if
(15:42):
you could just tap into your reverse mortgage,
pull that money out as you need it now you have
options. Maybe you pay that money back when the
market rebounds. Maybe you don't pay it back at
all. You just let it run and you let the market
continue to run. So you have, you have different
options available to you with the flexibility of
this program. And Those are just three examples.
(16:03):
And I could, I could give you 30 clients, mixing
and matching them, you know.
>> Anthony Weaver (16:10):
Right.
>> Ken Pitts (16:10):
There's, um, all different ways to do.
>> Anthony Weaver (16:11):
It, but this is really good information for people
to let at least know, like reminding everybody
like, hey, these are educational purposes only.
Because this is just to let you know, this is
another tool that you can actually utilize in your
toolbox, in your financial toolbox. Because I just
don't want you to think of budgeting as your only
tool. Like, everything looks like a budget at that
point. Like, sometimes life happens and you just
(16:34):
don't have your money by the time you're getting
close to retirement. Life happens.
>> Ken Pitts (16:39):
And. Yeah, good point. And life does happen. And
the best laid plans sometimes get waylaid. Um, and
I think that's really important.
You know, just real briefly on that whole line of
credit versus reverse, reverse line of credit.
What a lot of people don't realize, even some of
the financial planners I interviewed for my book,
(16:59):
you get out of line. If you get out of line, a
credit and say you take it out at age 65 and it's
going to be your emergency account. You know, the
bank doesn't have to keep that open. They can call
that line at any time. They can't call a reverse
mortgage in once it's open. It's open last year,
you know, and, and that's a really. And you don't
have to re qualify for it where a line of credit
(17:20):
you could be called in to requalify for that loan
after five or ten years. Reverse mortgages for
life. That's a, that's an important point.
>> Anthony Weaver (17:28):
Now is there just a wonder to understand because a
heloc, you only got to pay interest on it as you
use it is a reverse mortgage the same way as,
whereas like hey, if you have it there, you don't
touch it, but it's just there. Do you still have
to.
>> Ken Pitts (17:42):
Even better than it. Even better really. Because
if you don't touch, whatever portion, whatever
portion of the line of credit you don't touch
grows and gives you access to more equity over
time. Home equity line of credit doesn't do that.
Whatever you borrowed, you borrowed. That's it.
The reverse is designed to give you access to more
(18:03):
equity. Because what we know about real estate is
we've had some down years, but over time it moves
with inflation. You're going to, you know, in the
area where I live, nothing special about where I
live, we average 6% a year in this area, you know,
so the line of credit is going to, is going to
(18:24):
expand out and give you access to more money over
time if you're not using it. So like for some
people, I put these lines of credit in place and
they're like, well, I don't really need it now,
but I think I may need it four or five years from
now. I'm like, then let it grow. You know, if you
take it now, you can let it grow. There's no
guarantee of if we do this loan five years from
(18:45):
now, how much you're going to get out of the house
right now we know and we know what it could grow
to. And usually that's, you know, when you start
running the math on it. And there's economists
like Wade Pfau. Wade Pfau is a very well known
retirement economist. He has been a big proponent
of this program for years. He, he will write out
and tell you if you're in your 60s, you need to
(19:08):
get one and just let it sit because you can tap it
later and you won't have a payment. You Know.
>> Anthony Weaver (19:13):
Gotcha.
For the sake of time, man, like, I have so many
questions, but we only got short period of time.
But I want to talk about the futures here. Like we
talked a little bit about yourself. You've been
doing this for so long. You have a love and a
passion for it. But why you, why do you keep
going? Why is this so important to you.
>> Ken Pitts (19:31):
Particularly this loan for? Look, I'm 62. It's
coming on my horizon. Um, which was part of the
reason there was both a selfish interest and an
interest for my clients to understand this
product. You know, when every time that I do one
of these products, I can see just the release of
(19:56):
stress on my clients. Okay, I have a solution.
Okay, this will work. And I have them using it
across the gamut of, uh, different options. But
when I can see that click, that motivates me to go
to the next one. Because a, uh, it's more, it's a,
it's a different experience. Uh, the one thing
that I find unique is you can't really broad brush
(20:18):
everybody's financials. Everybody's a little
different. Different things happen to people and
puts them in different situations. I just love
being able to go in and just work with the client,
try and meet their need and say, okay, here's,
here's how this will solve this problem and we go
forward. It's, you know, as I said, it's. Luckily
(20:39):
it's not a one size fits all kind of problem. It's
got that flexibility where it can solve different
problems for different folks. But the way I look
at it is, and as long as, you know the solutions
there, you can pull the trigger whenever you're on
as a client with me, you know, you, you let me
know when you're ready, but I'm going to make
sure, you know, all these different options that
(21:01):
are available to you with it. And I think that's
what motivates me because I can see the solving, I
can see that, you know, the solution is there. And
that's exciting.
>> Anthony Weaver (21:10):
That's amazing.
So we're going to go to this third segment here,
which is the futures, like what areas of focus of
improvement in your own life or even your career
that you feel that you're working on now.
>> Ken Pitts (21:21):
I think I'm, I think I'm always chasing
efficiency, you know, making, making sure. I mean,
for me personally, always trying to make sure that
I'm, I'm doing first things first. You know, as,
as, uh, I'm from the Philly area. Jalen Hurts
always says it best Keeping the main thing, the
main thing. Not getting distracted by things out
(21:42):
in the periphery. Keep the main thing, the main
thing. And I think that's probably the, that's
probably the, the thing that I always come back
around. It's a good struggle because as you, as
you can perfect that over time you become, I, I
just think more efficient but clear thinking when
you can, when you can really focus and keep the
(22:03):
main thing, the main thing that keeps you, it
keeps you very clear minded, I think. And that's,
that's been something I've worked on my entire
career, not always successful.
>> Anthony Weaver (22:13):
That's a good thing to think about it. I, uh,
totally understand.
Is there anything you want to leave the audience,
the person that's listening right now before we go
dive into the final four?
>> Ken Pitts (22:24):
You know, when I was writing the book and it's
actually in the book, uh, I try and tell people
this all the time. The Internet is a great place
to form questions. It's a great place to get
information, to ask good questions. It's not
always the best place to get answers. And you
know, you have to have some, you have to have some
(22:45):
trusted professionals in your life that you can go
to, but go to them with questions. I, I'm fine
with somebody research and reverse mortgages on
the Internet and finding out every possible horror
story because I, uh, generally can probably
explain why those things happened and how the
product maybe wasn't applied correctly and this is
(23:05):
why it happened or folks weren't, you know, really
counseled well in how to use it. So yeah, the
Internet, great place to form questions, not
always the best place to get answers.
>> Anthony Weaver (23:19):
Awesome.
Are you ready for the final four questions?
>> Ken Pitts (23:22):
All, uh, right, here we go.
>> Anthony Weaver (23:24):
Uh, alrighty. Number one, what does wealth mean to
you?
>> Ken Pitts (23:35):
I think for me, wealth is security.
>> Anthony Weaver (23:38):
Number two, what was your worst money mistake?
>> Ken Pitts (23:41):
Got into developing real estate and wanted to get
out in 2006. Stayed until 2008, took a pretty good
beating.
>> Anthony Weaver (23:52):
Right? That's a whole nother episode.
>> Ken Pitts (23:55):
Oh, it is, It's a funny one.
>> Anthony Weaver (24:00):
Number three, is there a book that inspires you,
uh, on your journey or change your perspective?
>> Ken Pitts (24:07):
Yeah, I mean, I could tell you that. You know, for
me, um, there was a, there's a, uh, a book called
Rediscovering Jesus. And I found that one of the,
one of the premier books for getting me back into
studying the Bible and really looking at it as a
way to lead your life. And I found that book was
(24:29):
just awesome. If you get a chance to read it, it's
fantastic.
>> Anthony Weaver (24:33):
Number four, what is your favorite dish to.
>> Ken Pitts (24:36):
Now, listen, I cook, so.
>> Anthony Weaver (24:38):
Really?
>> Ken Pitts (24:38):
Okay, you know. Yeah, no, you don't have to
categorize that question. I'll tell you what. I'll
tell you what I got. I'll tell you what.
>> Anthony Weaver (24:47):
I got a Ramsay cooking. You cook it. Okay.
>> Ken Pitts (24:50):
Let me tell you. I'm all I can. I love all kinds
of stuff, but I did get into making my own
sourdough. And so I make. I make different types
of sourdough bread on a regular basis. I make a
couple loaves a week. Soft pretzels, bagels, pizza
dough, you know, outside of. Outside of bread
making, I love it. My nephew got me into it. He's
(25:11):
another cook. Nice. Yeah. Between the two of us,
we share recipes back and forth and things like
that, but there's nothing better than breaking
bread with people. And if you make a good
sourdough bread, people love it.
>> Anthony Weaver (25:21):
And that's a whole, like, literally breaking bread
with people. That's great.
So this is the last question of the show, which is
where could people find out more about you?
>> Ken Pitts (25:29):
So if you go to my book website, which is
Kineticwealthbook, uh, dot com, so you can kind of
see it behind me there, kineticwealthbook.com,
you'll get all my contact information there. Even
though I'm a licensed loan officer in four states.
Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, and Florida.
If you're not in those states, call me. Anyway, I
(25:50):
would love to answer any questions you might have
about reverse mortgages. You know, I'm a real
proponent for the program, and, um, you know,
anybody has any questions. Great. You can order my
book on that site as well. Um, it's a. It's a good
read in that it's only 133 pages, so most folks
can read it in a. In a day or two, and it'll get
(26:12):
you asking questions and seeing applications.
That's what it's designed. Yeah.
>> Anthony Weaver (26:16):
And also you can get the first chapter of your
book, too. Like on your website.
>> Ken Pitts (26:19):
Yeah. Get the first chapter free.
>> Anthony Weaver (26:21):
There you go. Um, man. Ken, thank you so much for
stopping by to share your knowledge to the person
that's listening or decided to listen to this
episode. And I commend you for everything that you
do. And the person that's listening to this, I
want you to realize that you've already taken the
first step to understanding. Hey, this is a brand
new financial toolbox for your family, either for
(26:43):
you for when you get older, or your parents, if
they still love. And you're supporting them and
you just don't know what else to do. You just
can't afford to move them into your place and you
can kind of retire in place for just a little bit.
This is an option for you. Uh but also these are
things that you can also talk with your financial
planner and this is a great way and thank you so
(27:05):
much Ken. I can talk about this a little longer. I
wish we had more time but if you the listener
think like we have Kim back on to talk about a
part two really taking a deep dive in some of his
special stories, some of the horror stories and
how to get out of it. Please drop something in the
I'll just say drop wallet in the uh, in the in the
comments on YouTube and or if you listening to
(27:27):
this on Spotify. I wish you all the best. Y' all
be safe. We out.
>> Ken Pitts (27:31):
Peace. Thank you Anthony.
This episode is sponsored by
kineticwealthbook.com.
>> Ken Pitts (00:04):
Okay, so we're all used to I need to buy a house.
I need to get some type of financing to buy that
house. We call that a mortgage finance loan. It's
going to be a loan that's secured by a home. And
so you'll use that. Maybe you're buying a $500,000
house and you can put 50,000 down, but you need to
finance 450,000 to make the purchase happen.
(00:24):
That's called a forward mortgage. And. And when
you do a forward mortgage, you're expected to
make.
>> Anthony Weaver (00:32):
Welcome everybody back to another exciting show of
the about that Wallet podcast. I'm your host,
Anthony Weaver, and we are here to help the
sandwich generation build strong financial habits
so that they can talk about money, spend money,
and enjoy their money with confidence. Today I
have somebody who has been working pretty much in
(00:53):
mortgage lending as long as I've been alive who
stressed the importance of understanding the
mortgage process and has an awesome book that I
think you all would actually like to listen into.
And I'm gonna let him take care of that part of
it. So welcome to the show. Ken Pitts.
>> Ken Pitts (01:10):
How you been, Anthony? Thanks for having me.
Thanks for reminding me how old I am, too.
>> Anthony Weaver (01:16):
Uh, I mean, you know, you've been doing this for
so long, though. I mean, I got to give you your
props because a lot of people usually give up on
their jobs very quickly. Like, you know, the same
with, especially with a profession, uh, 35 years
in county and county.
Okay, so, but one of the things we want to dive
into today, which is talking about reverse
(01:38):
mortgages, like, I've heard about it, I've seen
people get, quote, um, unquote shafted from it.
And I just want to hear from your expertise about
it, like, what makes it so appealing to you.
>> Ken Pitts (01:52):
And that's a great way to start. I think what I
found, Anthony, over my years, both offering that
mortgage as a financial tool for folks in
retirement, but also hearing a lot of the
misconceptions. Listen, when I wrote this book, I
didn't angle it just towards my end user clients.
I also angled it towards financial planners
(02:14):
because they were as misinformed as my clients
were. And, uh, it's been an eye opener for them
as, as much as it's been for my clients. And I
just think it comes from a lot of misinformation.
And also I think, you know, any new product that
comes into the, you know, into the sphere of
(02:35):
financing oftentimes goes through a couple of
iterations before it gets perfected. And this
product is no different. I would say that in 2014
there were major revisions made to the product
that made it a much more consumer friendly and I
think a lot safer as a product. Um, and when I say
(02:55):
safer, it's not so much safer to use, but safe
from people in my industry who misuse it with
clients. And, uh, I think some of those things
have made it a better product. But overall, I
really wrote the book just really to give people a
good background so they could understand, hey,
this is what a reverse mortgage is. Here's how it
(03:15):
can apply in your financial plan. Use it, don't
use it, doesn't matter. Just wanted you to know
it's out there. And I think, and I know that, uh,
your, your podcast hits that sandwich generation
and that's where a lot of my leads come from
because they're trying to figure out how to help
their parents and they're like, really?
>> Anthony Weaver (03:33):
I didn't think about that.
>> Ken Pitts (03:34):
What can my parent, you know, my, my parents are
running short during retirement and, but they have
a house. How can we make that work for them? And I
think that's probably one of the more refreshing
things that I've seen out of this is that a lot
of, a lot of the referrals I get are actually
people even younger. I'm 62, they're younger than
me. But they're trying to figure out a way to help
(03:57):
their parents who maybe are, you know, they're
just finding they're not making ends meet with
inflation and, and costs of, of goods going up.
>> Anthony Weaver (04:04):
Well, I mean, just keep going. I mean, you already
burned it out. Like, how could, how could some
people like, like me, who's preparing for my mom
to get ready for retirement, help them with this
process or at least educate them a little bit
more.
>> Ken Pitts (04:17):
Okay, so let, let's talk a little bit about, just
in general, how does, how does a reverse mortgage
work? Okay, so we're all used to, I need to buy a
house. I need to get some type of financing to buy
that house. We call that a mortgage finance loan.
It's going to be a loan that's secured by a home.
And so you'll use that. Maybe you're buying a
(04:39):
$500,000 house and you can put 50,000 down, but
you need to finance 450 to make the purchase
happen. That's called a forward mortgage. And when
you do a forward mortgage, you're expected to make
a monthly payment. And that monthly payment is
going to pay interest and pay Principal towards
the loan. Depending on most first time buyers, for
(05:00):
example, get 30 year terms because they're
affordable. So they'll spread the payments out
over 30 years. They are front end loaded with
interest. So for the first 15 years you're mostly
paying interest and then after that you're mostly
paying principal. So a reverse is the complete
opposite of that. It's a mortgage, it's secured by
a house, but what it's enabling you to do is, is
(05:23):
go and grab all that equity that you build up over
time and bring it back out. And you can bring it
back out in a number of different ways, but it
still functions like a mortgage. There's interest
that's on the loan. The difference is in the
reverse. Instead of making a payment like you do
(05:44):
on a forward, that interest gets deferred and gets
added to the loan. Um, that loan balance is going
to go up over time, but you have no monthly
payment for it. But you have access to the money.
And that's the beauty of utilizing your house
after retirement. You're able to actually tap into
the long term equity that you built out in that
(06:05):
house and be able to get access to it. And there's
real formulas that really govern this loan. And
what I mean by that is if you were going to go buy
a house, we have to make sure you can afford the
monthly payment. And so you have to make payments.
You know, can you make the payments of principal
and interest, can you make your car note, your
(06:25):
student loan, whatever else is out there. In a
reverse mortgage you don't really qualify that
way. We just need to make sure that you can carry
the expenses of the house. That's it. It's called
a residual income calculation. And so when we're
doing that, it's one of those calculations that is
really easy to qualify for. So the reverse is a
(06:47):
very easy to qualify for when, which is again
opposite of the forward mortgage, which is a lot
harder to qualify for. But it was started by the
federal government. There were actuarialists and
gerontologists who knew people are living longer,
they're going to outlive their money. We got to
figure out a way to give them some alternative
(07:08):
source of income besides Social Security and a
pension. And that's what really how it all
developed.
>> Anthony Weaver (07:16):
So what that, what does it separate between the
reverse mortgage versus a HELOC then?
>> Ken Pitts (07:21):
So a uh, home equity line of credit, if you use
it, you will pay interest on it. You're going to
have to come out of pocket and make a monthly
payment on the reverse mortgage, you never make a
payment when you pass away. There's three trigger
points on a reverse mortgage. If you die, your
house sells, it pays off the loan. No different
(07:42):
than a regular mortgage. Exactly the same. If you
go into long term care for more than 12 months,
you need to sell the house and pay off the loan.
Because what we know from actuarials are if you go
into a home for 12 months or more, you're not
coming back out. Okay. And then the third piece is
you got to keep up on your taxes and insurance.
(08:03):
Because if you don't keep up your taxes and
insurance, and this would be no different than a
regular 400 mortgage you're going to get, you're
going to have an issue where you could be
foreclosed on for taxes. And if that's the case,
you've breached, you know, your agreement with the
lender because you're not taking care of the taxes
and insurance. So those are the three what we call
trigger points where you're going to, where you
(08:24):
got to do something to pay off the loan. Outside
of that, you make no monthly payment. Interest
defers over time. And from an actuarial
standpoint, they really designed the product so
that there's some equity left over at the end and
that equity goes to the estate. And that's, you
know, your kids, if your kids are named in the
estate or um, you know, whatever. But if you have
(08:47):
a, you have a couple that are, you know, a husband
and wife that own the house and they're both on
the loan, if one of them dies, the other one just
stays in the house, it just keeps on rolling. So
there's. So it's opposite of what we know about a
forward mortgage.
>> Anthony Weaver (09:02):
Yeah. And it gets me thinking more questions of.
Well, you say there's no payments, but the
interest get accrued on the back end. So. But we
can make payments if, like as if we wanted to, to
go ahead on and pay off whatever we borrowed
against the home, if that makes sense.
>> Ken Pitts (09:19):
You're always open to make payments on.
>> Anthony Weaver (09:21):
The loan, but they're going to take some money.
>> Ken Pitts (09:24):
But uh, but the real, the real application is
where most people need it. They need it because
they're falling a little bit short. Monthly. It's
the same they get, they have more month than money
and they're using that to tap, they're using their
house to tap into the equity to make up that
difference. When you're using it in that way,
generally speaking, you're probably not going to
(09:44):
pay it down, but you can you can. I mean, you
know, some people maybe have a spouse, she passes
away, leaves you life insurance. You could use
that life insurance to pay down the loan and open
up that line again, keep using it, you know, so it
does give you some flexibility in that regard.
>> Anthony Weaver (10:01):
So what does that allow the, um, the borrower. So
say if they want to consolidate it debt, they can
go down and use this particular reverse mortgage.
But how do you kick it off then? So say if
somebody just say, like, hey, my strategy, my
financial strategy. This is me. I don't have any
of their assets, I don't have any other
(10:22):
investments. I really don't want to tap into my
401k. But I do have a property have, uh, like
least more than 80.
Do you need to have at least a certain percentage
before you can start this reverse mortgage thing?
>> Ken Pitts (10:34):
M. So typically a reverse. So you have to be age.
If you're using the FHA version, for example, you
have to be 62 years or older to begin to use it.
Generally speaking, it's three factors that go
into it, what your age is. So we look at your
birth date, we look at the value of the home, and
(10:54):
we look to see if you owe anything currently on
the house. Those three things will determine
whether this product's going to work for you or
not. And I. And it probably will make cognitive
sense as soon as I tell you the younger you are,
the less you can borrow. The older you are, the
more you could borrow. Because think about it,
(11:16):
this loan's growing over time. So the longer the
loan's going to be out there, the more it's going
to grow as you're using it and you're accruing
interest. So when typically, if you're trying to
take it out at age 62, 65, 68, you might get about
40% of the value of the house as a reverse
(11:36):
mortgage. But as you get into your 70s, and I've
done some for folks in their 80s and they're
getting more like 40, 45, 48% of the value of the
house based on today's interest. So if interest
rates drop, they give you more access to more
money because the loan's growing slower. So
there's. Those are two really important factors
(11:58):
outside of, okay, what's the house value, uh, when
we look into it. So it's looked at completely
different than a forward mortgage. Again, it's the
reverse. Everything's based on an actuarial of how
old you are, what the interest rates are, and what
the value of the house is.
>> Anthony Weaver (12:14):
Okay, does it matter what type of house? Because
I'm thinking of like, people who have condos,
double wides, um, or if they just have like, say
if they left you land and it's just kind of
hanging out, there ain't nothing going on with it,
but it's paid off. And like, does it matter what
type of asset?
>> Ken Pitts (12:32):
Good question. It has to be your primary
residence.
>> Anthony Weaver (12:35):
Okay.
>> Ken Pitts (12:36):
It can be a condo. It can even be a, uh, double
wide manufacturer, provided you own the land. And
single families. I've seen duplexes allowed,
triplexes, as long as you're living in one of the
units.
>> Anthony Weaver (12:47):
Oh, really? Okay, now you're peeking my interest.
Tell me more. Because with the, uh, with the
quadplexes, that would be great.
>> Ken Pitts (12:53):
Yeah. So, so if you, you know, I mean, if you,
like I've told my kids, and when you buy your
first sale, try and make it a duplex, somebody
else will pay your mortgage for you, right? So if
you were lucky enough to have done that, you're.
And you're living in that house that you're living
in, one unit, you rent the other unit that works
on a reverse mortgage. You know, as long as the
(13:13):
numbers make sense, right? Age, interest rate,
value of the house, if there's equity there, you
can go get it on a reverse. So. And you can use
this thing as a financial tool in so many
different ways. Like I'll give you three examples,
three basic examples. Let's say you're, you know,
68 years old, you still have a balance on your
(13:34):
mortgage, so you're making a monthly payment. What
if I can eliminate the monthly payment? What if I
have enough equity, I can knock that monthly
payment out. Well, if my principal and interest
payment is twelve hundred a month, and I knock
that twelve hundred dollar a month expense, guess
what? Now goes longer, my Social Security lasts
(13:54):
longer. Maybe my pension or my 401k draw. And
maybe I don't have to draw as much on my 401k as a
result of it. So, you know, those are really nice.
You know, just financial twists you can do just by
knocking that payment out. Now, I've had some
people who have looked at this as a bridge to hold
off Social Security. So they were looking at maybe
(14:16):
taking Social Security out at age 62 or 65, but if
you can wait till age 70, you can almost double
what Social Security will give you. So they had
all this equity in their house. And what we
discussed was, hey, what if you take what you
would have gotten at age 62 on Social Security,
(14:37):
what If you take that out of the house via reverse
mortgage for the next eight years, you don't have
a payment on it, but it gets you to age 70. And
now you've doubled your. If it's age 62, you
almost triple what your Social Security benefit
would be. So from age 70 on, they have
significantly more Social Security income. I mean,
(14:59):
that's, that's called a delay bridge. It's, you're
buying time by utilizing the equity in the house
within the reverse mortgage to get you there. So
that's, you know, that's another, uh, possible way
to do it. And the third is a way that a lot of
financial planners recommend. They recommend folks
have a home equity line of credit on their house
for emergency expenses. And I agree with that. I
(15:21):
think that's a good philosophy, because you don't
want to be smashing into your 401k because you got
to get a new car or you have, you know, a medical
expense that wasn't expected, and you're hitting
your 401k at the absolute worst possible time. You
know, markets are down or something like that.
You're losing, you know, on both ends, where if
(15:42):
you could just tap into your reverse mortgage,
pull that money out as you need it now you have
options. Maybe you pay that money back when the
market rebounds. Maybe you don't pay it back at
all. You just let it run and you let the market
continue to run. So you have, you have different
options available to you with the flexibility of
this program. And Those are just three examples.
(16:03):
And I could, I could give you 30 clients, mixing
and matching them, you know.
>> Anthony Weaver (16:10):
Right.
>> Ken Pitts (16:10):
There's, um, all different ways to do.
>> Anthony Weaver (16:11):
It, but this is really good information for people
to let at least know, like reminding everybody
like, hey, these are educational purposes only.
Because this is just to let you know, this is
another tool that you can actually utilize in your
toolbox, in your financial toolbox. Because I just
don't want you to think of budgeting as your only
tool. Like, everything looks like a budget at that
point. Like, sometimes life happens and you just
(16:34):
don't have your money by the time you're getting
close to retirement. Life happens.
>> Ken Pitts (16:39):
And. Yeah, good point. And life does happen. And
the best laid plans sometimes get waylaid. Um, and
I think that's really important.
You know, just real briefly on that whole line of
credit versus reverse, reverse line of credit.
What a lot of people don't realize, even some of
the financial planners I interviewed for my book,
(16:59):
you get out of line. If you get out of line, a
credit and say you take it out at age 65 and it's
going to be your emergency account. You know, the
bank doesn't have to keep that open. They can call
that line at any time. They can't call a reverse
mortgage in once it's open. It's open last year,
you know, and, and that's a really. And you don't
have to re qualify for it where a line of credit
(17:20):
you could be called in to requalify for that loan
after five or ten years. Reverse mortgages for
life. That's a, that's an important point.
>> Anthony Weaver (17:28):
Now is there just a wonder to understand because a
heloc, you only got to pay interest on it as you
use it is a reverse mortgage the same way as,
whereas like hey, if you have it there, you don't
touch it, but it's just there. Do you still have
to.
>> Ken Pitts (17:42):
Even better than it. Even better really. Because
if you don't touch, whatever portion, whatever
portion of the line of credit you don't touch
grows and gives you access to more equity over
time. Home equity line of credit doesn't do that.
Whatever you borrowed, you borrowed. That's it.
The reverse is designed to give you access to more
(18:03):
equity. Because what we know about real estate is
we've had some down years, but over time it moves
with inflation. You're going to, you know, in the
area where I live, nothing special about where I
live, we average 6% a year in this area, you know,
so the line of credit is going to, is going to
(18:24):
expand out and give you access to more money over
time if you're not using it. So like for some
people, I put these lines of credit in place and
they're like, well, I don't really need it now,
but I think I may need it four or five years from
now. I'm like, then let it grow. You know, if you
take it now, you can let it grow. There's no
guarantee of if we do this loan five years from
(18:45):
now, how much you're going to get out of the house
right now we know and we know what it could grow
to. And usually that's, you know, when you start
running the math on it. And there's economists
like Wade Pfau. Wade Pfau is a very well known
retirement economist. He has been a big proponent
of this program for years. He, he will write out
and tell you if you're in your 60s, you need to
(19:08):
get one and just let it sit because you can tap it
later and you won't have a payment. You Know.
>> Anthony Weaver (19:13):
Gotcha.
For the sake of time, man, like, I have so many
questions, but we only got short period of time.
But I want to talk about the futures here. Like we
talked a little bit about yourself. You've been
doing this for so long. You have a love and a
passion for it. But why you, why do you keep
going? Why is this so important to you.
>> Ken Pitts (19:31):
Particularly this loan for? Look, I'm 62. It's
coming on my horizon. Um, which was part of the
reason there was both a selfish interest and an
interest for my clients to understand this
product. You know, when every time that I do one
of these products, I can see just the release of
(19:56):
stress on my clients. Okay, I have a solution.
Okay, this will work. And I have them using it
across the gamut of, uh, different options. But
when I can see that click, that motivates me to go
to the next one. Because a, uh, it's more, it's a,
it's a different experience. Uh, the one thing
that I find unique is you can't really broad brush
(20:18):
everybody's financials. Everybody's a little
different. Different things happen to people and
puts them in different situations. I just love
being able to go in and just work with the client,
try and meet their need and say, okay, here's,
here's how this will solve this problem and we go
forward. It's, you know, as I said, it's. Luckily
(20:39):
it's not a one size fits all kind of problem. It's
got that flexibility where it can solve different
problems for different folks. But the way I look
at it is, and as long as, you know the solutions
there, you can pull the trigger whenever you're on
as a client with me, you know, you, you let me
know when you're ready, but I'm going to make
sure, you know, all these different options that
(21:01):
are available to you with it. And I think that's
what motivates me because I can see the solving, I
can see that, you know, the solution is there. And
that's exciting.
>> Anthony Weaver (21:10):
That's amazing.
So we're going to go to this third segment here,
which is the futures, like what areas of focus of
improvement in your own life or even your career
that you feel that you're working on now.
>> Ken Pitts (21:21):
I think I'm, I think I'm always chasing
efficiency, you know, making, making sure. I mean,
for me personally, always trying to make sure that
I'm, I'm doing first things first. You know, as,
as, uh, I'm from the Philly area. Jalen Hurts
always says it best Keeping the main thing, the
main thing. Not getting distracted by things out
(21:42):
in the periphery. Keep the main thing, the main
thing. And I think that's probably the, that's
probably the, the thing that I always come back
around. It's a good struggle because as you, as
you can perfect that over time you become, I, I
just think more efficient but clear thinking when
you can, when you can really focus and keep the
(22:03):
main thing, the main thing that keeps you, it
keeps you very clear minded, I think. And that's,
that's been something I've worked on my entire
career, not always successful.
>> Anthony Weaver (22:13):
That's a good thing to think about it. I, uh,
totally understand.
Is there anything you want to leave the audience,
the person that's listening right now before we go
dive into the final four?
>> Ken Pitts (22:24):
You know, when I was writing the book and it's
actually in the book, uh, I try and tell people
this all the time. The Internet is a great place
to form questions. It's a great place to get
information, to ask good questions. It's not
always the best place to get answers. And you
know, you have to have some, you have to have some
(22:45):
trusted professionals in your life that you can go
to, but go to them with questions. I, I'm fine
with somebody research and reverse mortgages on
the Internet and finding out every possible horror
story because I, uh, generally can probably
explain why those things happened and how the
product maybe wasn't applied correctly and this is
(23:05):
why it happened or folks weren't, you know, really
counseled well in how to use it. So yeah, the
Internet, great place to form questions, not
always the best place to get answers.
>> Anthony Weaver (23:19):
Awesome.
Are you ready for the final four questions?
>> Ken Pitts (23:22):
All, uh, right, here we go.
>> Anthony Weaver (23:24):
Uh, alrighty. Number one, what does wealth mean to
you?
>> Ken Pitts (23:35):
I think for me, wealth is security.
>> Anthony Weaver (23:38):
Number two, what was your worst money mistake?
>> Ken Pitts (23:41):
Got into developing real estate and wanted to get
out in 2006. Stayed until 2008, took a pretty good
beating.
>> Anthony Weaver (23:52):
Right? That's a whole nother episode.
>> Ken Pitts (23:55):
Oh, it is, It's a funny one.
>> Anthony Weaver (24:00):
Number three, is there a book that inspires you,
uh, on your journey or change your perspective?
>> Ken Pitts (24:07):
Yeah, I mean, I could tell you that. You know, for
me, um, there was a, there's a, uh, a book called
Rediscovering Jesus. And I found that one of the,
one of the premier books for getting me back into
studying the Bible and really looking at it as a
way to lead your life. And I found that book was
(24:29):
just awesome. If you get a chance to read it, it's
fantastic.
>> Anthony Weaver (24:33):
Number four, what is your favorite dish to.
>> Ken Pitts (24:36):
Now, listen, I cook, so.
>> Anthony Weaver (24:38):
Really?
>> Ken Pitts (24:38):
Okay, you know. Yeah, no, you don't have to
categorize that question. I'll tell you what. I'll
tell you what I got. I'll tell you what.
>> Anthony Weaver (24:47):
I got a Ramsay cooking. You cook it. Okay.
>> Ken Pitts (24:50):
Let me tell you. I'm all I can. I love all kinds
of stuff, but I did get into making my own
sourdough. And so I make. I make different types
of sourdough bread on a regular basis. I make a
couple loaves a week. Soft pretzels, bagels, pizza
dough, you know, outside of. Outside of bread
making, I love it. My nephew got me into it. He's
(25:11):
another cook. Nice. Yeah. Between the two of us,
we share recipes back and forth and things like
that, but there's nothing better than breaking
bread with people. And if you make a good
sourdough bread, people love it.
>> Anthony Weaver (25:21):
And that's a whole, like, literally breaking bread
with people. That's great.
So this is the last question of the show, which is
where could people find out more about you?
>> Ken Pitts (25:29):
So if you go to my book website, which is
Kineticwealthbook, uh, dot com, so you can kind of
see it behind me there, kineticwealthbook.com,
you'll get all my contact information there. Even
though I'm a licensed loan officer in four states.
Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, and Florida.
If you're not in those states, call me. Anyway, I
(25:50):
would love to answer any questions you might have
about reverse mortgages. You know, I'm a real
proponent for the program, and, um, you know,
anybody has any questions. Great. You can order my
book on that site as well. Um, it's a. It's a good
read in that it's only 133 pages, so most folks
can read it in a. In a day or two, and it'll get
(26:12):
you asking questions and seeing applications.
That's what it's designed. Yeah.
>> Anthony Weaver (26:16):
And also you can get the first chapter of your
book, too. Like on your website.
>> Ken Pitts (26:19):
Yeah. Get the first chapter free.
>> Anthony Weaver (26:21):
There you go. Um, man. Ken, thank you so much for
stopping by to share your knowledge to the person
that's listening or decided to listen to this
episode. And I commend you for everything that you
do. And the person that's listening to this, I
want you to realize that you've already taken the
first step to understanding. Hey, this is a brand
new financial toolbox for your family, either for
(26:43):
you for when you get older, or your parents, if
they still love. And you're supporting them and
you just don't know what else to do. You just
can't afford to move them into your place and you
can kind of retire in place for just a little bit.
This is an option for you. Uh but also these are
things that you can also talk with your financial
planner and this is a great way and thank you so
(27:05):
much Ken. I can talk about this a little longer. I
wish we had more time but if you the listener
think like we have Kim back on to talk about a
part two really taking a deep dive in some of his
special stories, some of the horror stories and
how to get out of it. Please drop something in the
I'll just say drop wallet in the uh, in the in the
comments on YouTube and or if you listening to
(27:27):
this on Spotify. I wish you all the best. Y' all
be safe. We out.
>> Ken Pitts (27:31):
Peace. Thank you Anthony.
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