The script delves into a thought-provoking conversation about the complexity of identity, the intersectionality of people's experiences, and the impact of systemic issues on individuals. The dialogue highlights the need to acknowledge the sacrifices of others and the importance of recognizing service in our daily lives. Furthermore, it emphasizes the fluidity of identity and the potential for positive transformation and support.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
You can contact us at daepresents@mydae.org.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
a.m. (00:00):
No, is to be within a specific discipline, a specific
(00:33):
world, a specific reality toknow is extremely useful for
getting things done within thatparticular discipline or world
or reality to be an effectivedoctor or a pastry chef or a
financial analyst.
There's much that is critical toknow, but knowing by its nature
is bounded by and in factreinforcing of the reality
within which it occurs.
(00:55):
For 25 years, I've worked withexecutives in large
organizations, grad students,tech entrepreneurs, religious
leaders, and no doubt mytoughest client, myself.
I'm developing the capacity toexplore what lies beyond
knowing, beyond certainty at apractical level.
This work is required for thingslike innovation, but more
importantly, I found that thisinquiry is critical for
(01:18):
maintaining one's humanity.
Oh, and if you're generousenough to be listening to these
conversations, I respectfullysubmit that at any point, if you
feel you understand what I'msaying, you're not listening
deeply enough.
/Hey the voices in today'sconversation are Kyley
Komschlies, Sam Ascensio, andour producer as always is Scott
(01:40):
Amore, all are colleagues ofmine at DAE.
Let's listen in.
This used to be a big, well,it's still a big topic.
This kind of notion of one ofthe conditions of leadership is
letting go of any version of thephrase.
That's how I am in service ofthe impossible future that
you're kind of working on inyour life.
And it's this delicate thing.
Like we are finally, thankfullyat a point in the world where
(02:02):
we're at least beginning.
We're nowhere near, you know,done, but beginning to
acknowledge, you know, thevarious ways of, of, you know,
being, and then with that, thevarious conditions, like we
actually acknowledge mentalhealth conditions, like it's,
you know, I'm not sure what wedo.
To support kids and adults inthe workplace and you know, or
(02:23):
at least you know what we dothat's enough But at least we
are starting to acknowledgeright like the condition called
anxiety.
There's a condition, but thenyeah, we would talk about it
even if there's physicalconditions, there's
Psychological non clinicalconditions, you know, like I am
not a good public speaker liketransactional things like that.
I am introverted, I am shy, I amlike all things that are true
(02:45):
and have evidence to them andshould be tended to and not
pushed in a way that thatcreates breakage, right?
And so the paradox, you know,one of the many paradoxes we've
worked through over the twoyears or longer for, for, you
know, flying engagements onbreaking stuff.
The paradox, one of theparadoxes we engage with is, you
know, For that individual, foryou, how do you navigate this
(03:06):
sort of tending to my conditionor all the various conditions
that make me uniquely me,including positive, quote,
unquote, positive conditions?
I'm really smart.
I'm really a good speaker,right?
Like, how do you even extendbeyond that?
Right?
How do you, how do you both tendto your conditions in a healthy
and self empathetic way, selfcaring way while not being
(03:28):
limited by that's how I am.
So that's, that's the sort oftee up here.
And I have a reason why it'ssort of on my mind, but we can
get to that later if it pops up.
I don't know where to start
Kyley (03:37):
with this, and it starts where my mind has been for the
past little while.
It's kind of an aversion, but itmakes me think about this in
some capacity where somethingI've been very aware of with
people as they talk right now ishow often they focus on the
things that are in their way.
From getting to a place and thatI'm just hyper aware of that.
(03:58):
And I hear some of this languagecoming into those.
I am unorganized.
I have too many things going on.
I'm tired.
I am I am all of that stuff.
And part of me is wondering,like how specifically with like
students and the people we workwith is how do we acknowledge
those things, but also be like,and cool.
(04:19):
So what do you want to do withthat?
Because it can absolutely be inyour way.
Yep.
And how much, how much attentiondo you want to give to it?
How much attention do you wantto give to living, living and
doing the things that are,they're meaningful for you?
Yeah.
So I don't know what to do withit right now, but it's something
I'm paying attention to.
That's what we kind of converse
a.m. (04:34):
through life.
So out of the gamut, if you'vegot something you want to throw
in, I'll defer to you since Ialready talked.
Sure.
Scott (04:40):
Yeah,
Sam (04:41):
okay.
I'll say like, definitely, I amdefinitely that person who, like
in full disclosure, I have amyriad of, like, disorders and
invisible disabilities thatmakes it very hard as an
individual.
Like, it's, it's very differentwhen you have like a physical
disability.
It's like, You know, like, ifgenuinely physically walking
upstairs is not something youcan do because of that
condition, that doesn't meanthat, you know, like, you can't
(05:02):
get to where you need to get.
It just means you needaccommodations to get there, you
know, and it's, I'm not sayingit's always easier, but
sometimes it's, it's harder tokind of deny that case for
people.
Like, yeah.
I mean, you can see me, like, toa degree.
You know, there are somedisabilities that are more
invisible than others, but thereare some where it's like, you're
really gonna ask me to walk upthe stairs right now, like,
like, you can see what I'm goingthrough in this moment.
(05:23):
Like, I can get there at my ownpace, but you need to, like, let
me figure out that space.
So it's really hard as, like, anindividual just in generally
navigating the world with aninvisible disability because
mine tends to be verypsychological.
So it's really frustrating forme because I tell people like,
Hey, I see things in black andwhite.
They're like, No, you don't.
You just need to be more open.
I'm like, No, I'm not like beinglike, you know, like, Oh, like
(05:45):
cutesy.
Like I genuinely have adisability that's on the brink
of psychosis.
That's as near to schizophreniaas possible that my reality is
so distorted to the fact that Ican only exist in black and or
white.
I would love to see the grayzone.
I try to get there, but it's aconcept that I meet for you, not
because I understand it myself.
(06:05):
So, something that, like,happens a lot is, this can be
turned on to yourself or yourloved ones and it can be very
difficult to navigate just eventhe world in that kind of way.
So, in living with oneself, andwith specifically the kind that
I have, which is is sofrustrating because everyone's
always like you have the worstone, you know, yours like kills
like 70 percent of people beforethey're 20 and you like
constantly hear this aboutyourself and what you have and
(06:27):
it's like you spiral some daysbut what I've kind of learned in
this process is like in livingwith oneself and like
understanding those obstaclesyou have it's it's managing
those expectations and likereflecting on oneself like it's
a lot of work a lot ofreflection but there's a lot of
worth that comes with that likefor me oftentimes it's like like
(06:48):
i'm a person who's like livingwith this like it's traumatizing
it's holding me back and likei'm going through a lot of dbt
groups we were like no you're aperson who has this Right, you
live with it, but it doesn'tcontrol you.
And that was something that Istruggled with for a long time,
and I'm still coping through,but understanding that, like,
just because those things causeyou to do those bad things or
(07:11):
things that you don't enjoy, itdoesn't mean that someone can't
understand you, that you aren'tworthy of accommodations or
kindness or love or certainworking things, and it doesn't
mean it doesn't afford youwonderful, beautiful things like
being charismatic or kind orcaring or Deeply emotional about
things because I can be blackand white.
I'm like a hundred percent inwith you.
There's no going back, you know,and that's a strength.
(07:32):
And I think that's managingthose two things is, is really
difficult.
And when we talk about like thisidea of who I am, as opposed to
like what I like, I have, thatmakes me who I am.
Yeah.
a.m. (07:43):
You're just, you're raising for me to say, maybe
there's so much you're raising,but, but the part that I still
have the most physical reactionto is sort of the, the brutality
of, of, I know who you are.
Right.
Like that, that line of, youknow, 70 percent of people that
don't, I like, I don't even wantto repeat the line, right?
Like, that's like, like, to saythat, to say, I know who you
are, you're somebody who's goingto die before they're 20.
(08:03):
Like, what the f And it's not,it's, I, I don't know, I don't
know the context, right?
But those things are often donewith zero malice.
And sometimes they're even doneout of like a concern.
It's like, listen, you're,you're very shy.
Are you sure you want to go intothe debate club?
Like, like it's out of a senseof like desire to protect, but
it's like such a brutality.
Sam (08:25):
Yeah.
Most assuredly, like for me, alot of people are like, Oh, you
have this thing, you're abusive.
Like a full disclosure.
I have borderline personalitydisorder.
It means I'm on the borderlineof a psychosis, you know?
And so it's really difficult.
And so something you always hearis like, A lot of psychiatrists
don't want to work with you.
Oh, they're just reallydifficult.
Oh, like, you never know whatthey're gonna do.
They're unpredictable.
And like, the worst thing for meis, like, as well as a queer
(08:45):
person, going into the therapypractice and being like, yeah,
I'm polyamorous.
I have multiple partners.
I'm like, are you sure that'snot a symptom of your plurter
line?
You know, they all love like,you know, like chasing
affections and I've been like,yeah, I'm in a three year
committed relationship and afour year committed relationship
with a lot of honestconversations.
No, and that's not what I camehere to talk about.
(09:06):
Like, it's, it's deeplyfrustrating to have people
constantly assume who you arebecause of these things.
And then the conversation thenbecomes like, do you even
disclose that, you know, like doyou even talk to people about
like those aspects?
It's like, do you say, I just.
Get a little emotional sometimesor do you say I have the thing
that makes this difficult forme?
Because that changes how peoplesee you and support you, and
(09:28):
it's deeply frustrating.
a.m. (09:30):
So, that's one of the two reasons why this topic is on my
mind, right?
Like, it's We're just at thebeginnings of the stage of
acknowledging that people have,you know, these kind of really
complex set of differences.
But we still, like, one of themain things we're trying to do
is we force people to disclose adiagnosis in order to give
(09:51):
consent for them to Adapt.
Yeah.
The environment in a way, right?
As opposed to this, just me.
I don't need to give you anysort of categorization around
why I need this, as long as itdoesn't mess up what we're
doing.
You know, in the work context,as long it doesn't blow up your
business, lungs doesn't.
Right.
I shouldn't have to give you anyjustification.
This is just how I need to work.
Yeah.
Okay.
(10:11):
And we're not there.
Where do we do this?
It's like, well, I, I have togive a diagnosis, you know?
I say, oh, okay, well in thatcase let's do a, another form of
brutality, you know?
Sam (10:19):
It's, it's, it's deeply frustrating, especially for
individuals who may not haveaccess to healthcare, like, I've
had jobs where it's like, Hey,this is the ass that I have,
this is a genuine thing thathappened to me.
I was like, hey, listen, I havethis thing, I get really
emotional, I'm in a justicefield, I'm going to get
emotional, I'm going to take itpersonal.
If I don't feel heard, if I'mexpressing something to you and
I don't feel heard, I know I'mnot going to take it personal
later, but right now, I'm goingto take it real personal.
(10:42):
Give me a minute to walk awayand talk to a coworker, like,
let off these feelings and thencome to the reality of it.
Because The thing withborderline is that black and
white exist.
I'm not gonna see the reality.
You can tell me the sky is blue.
To me right now, it's red and itlooks red.
It is red.
It's just how it is.
Give me like 10 minutes.
I'll pass that, but I need thatmoment.
The only thing I asked for wasjust a work buddy I could talk
(11:03):
to.
I was denied the accommodationbecause I didn't have.
the medical reports that provedthat I had this disorder and
they actively told many of theco workers not to speak to me to
the point that I was like unsurewhat was happening and my
legality became reallydiscerning.
I was like, am I going to getfired?
Like what's going on?
And they're like, no, you'refine.
I'm like, but everything aroundme is not making sense, which is
making this diagnosis worse.
(11:25):
And also you're not giving me myhealth care benefits so that I
can get there.
Also, you don't have an HRdepartment.
Also, you don't have somebodywho's like supportive.
Like I'm confused and it waslike, no, everything's fine.
It was the point that I had sucha bad mental breakdown that I
like just didn't show up towork.
And they were like, oh, how dareyou take off work without
medical leave?
And I was like, what?
(11:46):
Like, I told you what happened!Like, this was going to ha I
warned you of the impendingissues, and they're like, Well,
you need to show a specifichistory and have specific
doctor's notes, and it's like,okay, like, But if I didn't
disclose this to you, everythingwould have been fine?
Like, what's the trade off here?
There's no policies, there's nodocuments, like, I have to
constantly read policies andthis back and forth, like, brawl
(12:08):
of, like, Am I me or am I this?
Do I have to do this?
How do I meet these standards soI can get what I need?
Like it's never just like, hey,I need to leave in this moment.
I just, I just need to stepaway.
It's never just like, okay,cool, step away.
And I'm cool.
It's just, that rarely happensin spaces.
And it's just, I just don'tunderstand how people don't
understand, like, You can makespace for people to talk about
themselves and disclose this,and that's great, but there are
(12:29):
times where you don't need to,and you can just understand a
person is a person, like beyondthese identifiers.
a.m. (12:35):
Yeah, we're, we're many thousands of miles from, from,
from, from that inorganizations, right?
It is, it is the ongoing andever more acute failure.
Of, of, you know, HR to actuallydo anything human right.
It is this sort of absence of,of any understanding of what
actual human interaction is likeand kind of a default to
(12:56):
policies, process, category, etcetera, but none of which you
would do in your personal life.
And, and yet somehow we blindlykeep doing it in organization
thinking.
That's the way it should be.
Related to that, the big thingthat got me on this topic is
there's a series of articlesI've seen recently, and yeah,
these things come in waves, andyou know, Gen Z is bringing
anxiety into the workplace.
Look at a first batch of Gen Zshowing up in corporate
(13:17):
environments, and they're allanxious, and they, you know.
And so, yeah, I've seen articleson different perspectives on
this one sort of, in essence,complaining about, you know, how
The generation is not able todeal with the pressures of like,
it wasn't overtly saying that,but that was kind of the thesis
and then the others being more,you know, it's a generation that
has these sort of issues and theworkplace doesn't know how to
deal with it.
(13:37):
And, you know, balance that andproductivity and all that, the,
like, I think this has alwaysbeen the case or, you know,
like, I, you know, I'm, I'mconcerned with the industry, the
era I got born into.
So when I say always, you know,the industrial era, the, the
kind of, you know, the 20thcentury, I think it's been the
case, but it is so acute now, Ithink.
Like everything you've saidabout, you know, self disclosing
(13:57):
about your, your kind ofconditions and yet you move
forward because there'scommitment there, right?
I think one of the things thathappens is these things become
more, like, they're legitimatefor me, right?
Like, I have, you have to talkabout, I have anxiety, I have,
I've had lifelong depression,right?
These things are real for me.
And then if I find myself in aplace where I'm not actually
(14:18):
committed, where I'm kind oflike, I guess I got to do this.
Because of X, Y, and Z, then itbecomes like a true reinforcer
now of, well, but that's how Iam, and so I can't, you know,
and I think we have, again, Ithink it's been true for the
last century, but I thinkrapidly accelerating last 20
years, we have created anenvironment of minimal
(14:41):
ontological consent, like whopeople are expected to be.
They have not consented to, andthey're not up for it.
I'm not saying that's the causefor, you know, the mental health
issues.
Like, I mean, there's a myriadcomplex, you know, from the
processed foods we eat to the,you know, potential that we're
going to blow up the planetbefore this generation has
grandchildren.
(15:02):
And like, it's all right.
So it's not, you know, there's awhole host of issues.
But I do think that that thereare so few people who are living
lives that they're actuallycommitted to it, particularly in
the workplace and educationwhere we tend to focus on
education in the workplace.
And I think it just furtherexacerbates because if I'm not
committed and I legitimatelyhave.
(15:22):
conditions.
It just ups the ante on, well,that's how I am.
I can't, I don't want to, etc.
Don't make me.
Sam (15:29):
You brought up such a good point.
This is something I've beenactually dealing with this week
is like, I, one of the thingsfor me is like managing my
emotions, my reactions, and theintensity of those reactions is,
is a complex dance for me.
So sometimes when I feelfrustrated about something, I'm
not sure if I should be feelingthat, or if my intensity of it
is correct.
And so this week I've been kindof trying to explore like, when
(15:51):
I'm frustrated about things, ismy intensity valid, or is that
something that I've told thatI'm not okay with?
And something I've kind of cometo understand is like, I have
been told most of my life thatlike, anger, frustrations,
expressing that it's bad, anyintensity is bad, even if The
whole world around you isvalidating that.
It's still not okay.
And I think that's somethingthat's, it's deeply frustrating
for me because there are justtimes where I'm like, I just
(16:12):
don't like understand something.
I don't get it.
And I'm always told, just, justgo with the flow.
And I'm like, but I don't getit.
I don't understand, or this isfrustrating for me.
I want clarity.
And I think it's, it'sdefinitely like.
I don't think it's just that GenZ's bringing anxiety into the
world.
I think it's more just, they'reacknowledging that it's a part
of, of it.
Like, anxiety comes from like,wanting to meet your deadlines,
or wanting to do work well, orcaring about the thing deeply,
(16:35):
or because something's taughtyou that it's scary, right?
But if you can change how, youknow, we interact with each
other, we can change the meaningof those things, which I think
really ties to like, termsymbolic interactionism, which
for anybody who's not heard ofsymbolic interactionism is
basically the idea it's asociological theory posited by
George Herbert Mead.
And it basically states that insymbolic interactionism, the
(16:56):
meaning we make of things comesfrom the interactions we have
with those things.
So language, symbols, a day today interactions, face to face
interactions, like we createmeaning and derive those meaning
and change that meaning.
through those daily livedinteractions, and therefore
those meanings are fluid.
So anxiety could have been like,we keep that at home, but
through the interactions thatGen Z's having like, on TikTok,
(17:19):
in conversations, on one on one,in symbols, in language, and I
understand it's like, no, thisis a thing.
That I have, I live with, andneeds to be addressed in all
spaces of my life.
And now we're having tochallenge this because we have
two types of symbolicinteraction, ones that come from
generational ones that havedifferent versions of how we see
anxiety in this new generation,and it's coming into clashing
(17:40):
ideologies, and now we're notsure what to do with it because
one's becoming fluid and one'svery rigid.
And I think that's kind of whatI'm, like, I'm kind of hearing
and seeing from the situation.
Interesting.
Kyley (17:51):
Yeah, I think about myself.
I found out as an adult thatalmost the entirety of my family
has some form of depression.
And we've never talked about it.
Like, it was never aconversation.
It wasn't even something youkept at home.
It just wasn't something thatexisted.
So, like, I, like, evencontemplating, like, I'm happy
and open and talking about itnow, but, like, It wasn't even
part of a thing.
What, 15 years ago when I was inhigh school?
(18:13):
20 years ago when I was in highschool?
The conversation wasn't evenreal.
I didn't talk about my friends.
It wasn't even language in theworld.
Ditto.
Yeah, same here.
a.m. (18:22):
Life's hard.
You get down sometimes.
Sometimes you get really down.
That's just what it is.
Go for a walk.
Have a drink.
Whatever.
Kyley (18:32):
But it wasn't like, I didn't even have that
conversation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
My, my parents, my mom is a, thecontinual positive, whatever
language you want to, like,what's, she greets me on the
phone, what's, what's good andexciting?
Like, the conversation that washard wasn't even part of my
existence.
And my dad's language was, Whatare we grinding on today?
You know, like what, what are weaccomplishing?
a.m. (18:53):
Two very classic coping mechanisms.
Scott (18:55):
Right.
But I think it, that lendsitself in my experience to
people my age and older, my, mygeneration and older tend to
look at millennials and Gen Zand say, Like, you know, the
equivalent of like, get off mylawn.
Like, what's your problem?
You know, like what, get ittogether or something like that.
And I think what's happeningseems to me like it's a symptom
because I feel like thosegenerations are the first ones
(19:16):
that aren't guaranteed a futurethat's better than the previous
and our generations were on somelevel and there's an anxiety
built into just living.
That, you know, they don't seethe, they don't see the pay at
the end, especially if they seetheir elders with depression,
kind of just, you know, goinginto old age and nursing homes
and stuff and just kind of, youknow, Just being for the rest of
(19:37):
their life.
They don't see that as apromising end to what they're
trying to accomplish
a.m. (19:41):
I think Scott I mean again these things we talk about
globally like so I don't meanthis in a blank way But I I
think that might be true forsome Millennials this kind of
notion of you know My life isnot going to be better than my
parents and that was always thecase I think younger Millennials
and certainly Gen Z why whateveris next?
I don't know the younger I Ithink it's actually deeper than
(20:02):
that.
It's not it's it.
Oh The whole thing was bullshit,wasn't it?
This whole kind of escalating dobetter, better, better.
That whole thing was bullshit.
You guys bought into it.
I get it.
We we're not, we're ready forsomething.
Yeah.
I I, I don't think it's evenlike, I think millennials were
resentful, like, oh, boomerstook everything and I can't
Rick, but I think the youngerones are like, not even like,
(20:23):
I'm not resentful.
No.
I want better.
I want different, you know
Sam (20:27):
That's so true.
Kyley (20:28):
There's not even security and failure like like
millennials have security likeah, it's gonna be bad because
y'all mess it up I see not evensecurity and internalize that.
a.m. (20:37):
Yeah, I mean, listen, Gen X and early Millennials are
going to continue to fuck thingsup, but I'd love to live long
enough for these younger folks,assuming that they may, I mean,
listen, we could have said thesame thing in the sixties and
said, Oh, my God, the hippiesare going to solve everything.
Because, you know, the visiblepart of, but in reality, that
was like 8 percent of thepopulation and that's, you know,
Reagan, Reagan voters in themaking.
(20:58):
You made a lot of noise.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, so I'm, I'm cautiouslyhopeful, but, but listen, you
talk about, you know, the gen,like, I didn't realize
generational depression, Iwouldn't have if it weren't for
my daughter.
Yeah, like she raised like, youknow, everybody in the family's
got this pattern.
I'm like, oh, you're right, youknow, and she and she jokes.
She's like, I'm doing therapyfor 14 generations.
(21:19):
I'm like, and I'm joining you inthe effort.
I think it's
Sam (21:21):
God.
That's the same thing thathappened to me and my mom,
whoever think that maybe youcame from a serious war and
maybe just affected the way youraise your kids.
She's like, well, we neverthought about this from like, I
know.
Scott (21:31):
You know, my family was always like, you know, they're
older too.
So they were from the depressionera and the war era.
And they were like, you know, ifyou made it just made it out
alive of either of those timeperiods, you won.
a.m. (21:45):
And this is, listen, this is, this is bouncy because I, I
can say that not onlygeneration, like for me as an
immigrant, again, the storieskind of grew up without plumbing
and seven people in 400 squarefeet, like, you know, like this
place, basically seven of uswere in like this room, a little
bigger.
And so, so this is like weirdkind of balancing.
Like I, I can find myself onboth sides of it and I'm on the
one side of like, Oh my God,this is so great.
You guys are doing this.
(22:06):
And the other side of it, do youfucking know what a luxury is?
And you have time and space to.
Do this instead of worryingabout how you're going to keep,
you know, the tank of water inthe corner last for the next
three days for the seven of us.
Right.
The get off my lawn sort ofmindset.
And like so much else, becausewe don't have these
conversations publicly, becauseit is more just a stichotomous
(22:27):
kind of, you know, get off mylawn or let's, let's.
You know, I had one, it's ahorrible way to put it, but it,
you know, let's cancel all theolder generation.
Maybe that's how I want to sayit for their lack of
sensitivity.
Yeah, yeah, right.
It's like one or the other.
It's just ongoing, you know,kind of dichotomous conversation
that doesn't get at what'sactually hopefully
Sam (22:45):
happening.
I'll definitely say like, I'mdefinitely one of those people
just like, burn it all, burn itall.
Like, I don't, I don't adhere tolike a lot of these systems.
That's very much like, ifsomething's going on, it's like,
you could do that.
I'm not gonna waste my timedoing that.
Like, that's something you areabout, not me.
Like, my dad's very much like,oh, this is how we worked.
I'm like, yeah, but was yourthing not you worked hard so I
(23:06):
could have a better life?
That's great that you'd have to,but here's another problem.
Why did the system even causeyou to have to go through that
in the first place?
This is not on me to fix agenerational issue that you went
through because the system hurtyou.
We should be, like, addressingthat system of inequality that's
causing this to happen in thefirst place.
You shouldn't have to, like,travel here and then, like, live
(23:26):
in poverty and, like, feelunwelcomed and unwanted and then
try to provide the best for yourkids.
You should already have theresources to do that.
That's not fair to you, that'snot fair to anybody, and no one
should have to go through that.
Like, no one should have to gothrough forced labor, no one
should have child, like, labor,like, everyone should have
healthcare, like, no one'sillegal, like, you are who you
are, we are, we're not gettingrid of queer people, like,
(23:48):
people of color matter, and theyhave real life experiences, and
like, those experiences matter,and like, we cannot understand
those experiences unless we makespace for that, and I'm not
gonna sit here and pretend likeI know all those things, I
don't, but I'm very much for asystem where that starts to
happen more often, and that'svery much in dichotomy with a
lot of people.
It's like, oh, you have no ideawhat I've been through.
(24:08):
Like, you know, you have no ideawhat it's like.
I was like, you know what?
You don't know what it's like tohave like mental health issues
and disabilities and talk aboutit and address it because now
you have to do the trauma workthat comes with decolonizing
yourself.
That's work, you know?
And it's, it's a part of who weare as a generation, I think.
Got my vote.
a.m. (24:25):
It's it's particularly like the real sort of sort of
underline for for me Sam is isis something that you know I've
talked about this over as wellBut Bucky full of Buckminster
Fuller named in the 60s and theyfeel so true in the 60s It is
infinitely true now, you know,he said listen, we're done.
We have enough Ability to feedhouse and close everyone that we
(24:46):
should stop now chasing andfigure out how to create a
society Where people can selfactualize and create and make
art and be comfortable.
That is so true right now Wehave the resources globally that
everybody on the planet shouldbe able to just live and pursue
a thing that gives themfulfillment at small scale or
large scale.
We have the, there's no excusefor it.
(25:07):
There's no reason why Mark needsthat island in the Pacific and
the, you know, like, it's justno reason for this.
It's silly.
Kyley (25:14):
We spend enough money on defense.
To do that.
Yeah, yeah,
a.m. (25:17):
yeah.
It's, it's, it's easy to take ashot at Mark and let me wheel
that one back.
Yeah.
It is more systemic than that.
Yeah.
It's not a handful ofbillionaires, although they're
not helping.
I guess I
Kyley (25:24):
pointed that one in particular, like we spend enough
money on war to make it where wedon't need to war if we don't
want to.
Yeah.
It's
Sam (25:32):
so funny because Kay asked me this question all the time
where it's like, what would youdo if you got like a million
dollars or for something likethat?
And I was like, oh, that's supereasy.
I would start a scholarship fundfor individuals who might not
have schooling.
I would make sure that like, youknow, people don't have to live
like in like, like houselessnessor I would create like programs
or I would address actualsystemic issues and programs
that were going on.
And he was like, you're thefirst one to like, say something
like that.
(25:52):
I was like, what do you mean?
He's like, well, most people saythat they would keep it or
invest or do all these things.
Like, yeah, I would invest, butgive back to these like
organizations or try to buildsomething.
But the problem that I have withthat, and this is a question I
haven't.
Fighting with a lot of peoplelately and I mean by fighting is
like internalized with myselfand and like discussing with
others It's like there's a lotof like social construct that's
going on Like there aresystematic issues at at play in
(26:14):
a lot of ways and and some ofthose things deeply frustrate me
And this is what I'm gonna bringup and I don't care how
controversial it is is I do notthink charity is a good thing I
don't.
Because, right, we are alwayshoping that someone volunteers
their time, donates money, andthat is going to be sustainable
enough, or like, that enoughgrants are going to support non
(26:35):
profits and things like that tojust contribute and support
communities in the ways that thegovernment could fill, entirely
fill, and not even fillthemselves.
They can support theseorganizations through funding.
Entirely like making sure thattheir employees are paid and and
health care and all these thingsThere's enough money to do that
But it's always on the goodwillof other people trying to
(26:57):
support a goodwill effort Andtherefore this reinforces these
systematic issues that we're notactually addressing.
It's like oh look we're helpinghomelessness We have a whole
like a homeless shelter.
It's like yeah That's great, butwhat are you doing to fund that
beyond just making a place?
That's not helpful.
It's a systematic issue
a.m. (27:15):
As the person who's got to keep Finding money for the stem
place.
I am very much behind thatpolicy platform
Sam (27:21):
So what I'm saying is like you shouldn't have to like meet
these metrics to say like oh Wecare about students who are
doing enough to support thesestudents.
It's like If you truly believein what we're doing, right, give
us the tools to be successful,rather than us constantly have
to prove to you that we are,because if your whole idea is
like, everyone should have aneducation, then give us the
tools to provide everyone aneducation, and give us the
(27:42):
training to do that, you know,give us the space to have that,
and that's the problem is like,oh, well, you know, D.
A.
E.
's covering these students andsupporting these students and
teaching them and making themfuture educators, like, you
know, you're getting credits.
Why are you mad?
You know, you're just, if youget more credit, you get more
money.
Like it's not viable.
That doesn't address thesystematic issue.
There's no support for thesestudents to get these skills.
a.m. (28:05):
So I'm working on the first of these video essays.
I'm planning on starting torelease like every quarter.
And the very first one issomething I said in the first
podcast, which is, you know,for, for all of our time on the
planet, we were born into aculture.
And the culture had a story, andthe culture had a cuisine, and
it had gods, and it had, youknow.
And if you were born in the lastcentury, particularly in the
(28:25):
West, but now, if you're bornanywhere on the planet, you're
not born into a culture, you'reborn into an economy.
And so, to me, like, the, youknow, the bottom line,
fundamental challenge around allof this stuff and all the other
stuff we've talked about is thatwe fundamentally need a new
story about what it is to behuman.
Or, more accurately, we need togo back to the old story of what
(28:46):
it was to be human.
Because in the last couple ofhundred years, the story of
being human is, we are aneconomic animal.
Not that we've never had aneconomic life, we've always had
an economic life.
But that wasn't the center ofwhat it meant to be human.
Our culture, our people, our,our cuisine, our, you know, now
that was tribal or, or, youknow, kind of, kind of parochial
and local, right?
(29:07):
And so now it's a moreheterogeneous version of our
people, right?
Our community or whatever thatis, but, but a culture, right?
To be of a culture versus to beof an economy because in an
economy, these things keep, thisis the sort of thing that keeps
coming up.
We can't get to where you'repointing to because we have to
keep transacting.
We have to keep making better,more.
Culture understands.
(29:28):
Don't plant more crops there,but an economy doesn't.
The economy says, plant morecrops there, figure out what we
have to do to get that done,forget about 10 years from now.
But the culture says, no, 10years from now and 100 years
from now, our greatgrandchildren will be great.
And so, don't, don't plant anymore crops there.
And then now take that out andstretch it across everything.
Like, that's the core problem.
Sam (29:48):
Yeah, I feel like it's hard to build an identity in a system
that doesn't want you to haveone.
And it's like It's kind of like,you know, you start to identify
yourself by these things thatproduce capital.
And like kind of what you'resaying is you become a creature
of an economy.
You know, you become a personand it's like, Oh, I am shy.
(30:09):
I am not a leader.
Therefore I do not have worthbecause unless I can find a way
to give those things where to anemployer in the future on my
resume, why does it matter?
And it's like,
a.m. (30:18):
so, so, so this, this gets at the punchline I wanted to get
to, right.
Which is the way you're sayingthe sin.
And so what happens is theseconditions in this, in this
society become.
The two things decide knows howto do one is the additional sort
of attributes to your specsheet.
Like this part in the machinehas these, you know, seven flaws
to it.
So when you're putting it intoit's, you know, a place in, in
(30:41):
the machine, understand don't,right.
The second thing it does is theother thing that the system and
this mindset and the story knowhow to do is to understand how
to market to you better.
Cool.
Here are the more niche thingswe can sell you.
Oh, you have anxiety.
Cool.
These are the more niche thingswe can tell you.
Do you have you heard about thecalm app?
Have you heard about right?
And so that's what thesecategories conditions do is they
(31:02):
they they push away from whereyou're pointing to and i'm
certainly an advocate Of right.
It's like i'm unique phenomenaon the planet But i'm no more
important than any other uniquephenomena that's happened But I
am in fact a unique phenomenaand no category captures me,
right?
And it pushes us towards hereare your categories and now
here's the way you can andcannot be useful Productivity
standpoint and hear the moreniche ways that we can sell you
(31:24):
shit amplified by a
Scott (31:26):
need for people to curate their public appearance through
social media and stuff.
So it's, you know, look at me.
I'm great.
And, you know, I'm guilty of ittoo.
Like, you know, try to set out acertain.
Way that you look to the publicand stuff, but you know,
sometimes you need to calm outto be able to maintain it.
I like,
Sam (31:41):
I do it too, and I genuinely hate it with a
passion, and I think I was, Iwas talking to Kyley about this
the other day, where I was like,I'm trying to go for a
doctorate, several, severalissues with this.
One, the doctorate I knowdoesn't exist, like, there's no
like, LGBT doctorate thatdoesn't exist, right?
Second problem is, it's money.
Third problem is with mydisability.
It's hard to navigate school aspecific way.
So when you apply to school,they're like, yeah we're, you
(32:04):
know, this department that caresabout DEI right?
And it's like, cool.
How many people from like lowereconomic standards that aren't
like this peak high do you takein?
Most of the time it's none and Iwas telling Kyley it's like,
it's so great how I'm a personwho's done a lot of research.
I have a lot of livedexperiences and a lot of my
(32:24):
praxis is built on understandingwhat I've done in school through
the privilege of being able tohave higher education and
recognizing that but also thelived experience of Like I have
been houseless.
I have been attacked.
I have experienced really scarytrans issues like personally And
i'm constantly reading about itand i'm never really seeing
myself in this which is why Iwant to pursue this kind of Like
(32:45):
scholarship and yet Everypathway is a blocker.
Every pathway, unless I am thisperfection, is a blocker, and I
am never heard.
It's never like, oh, yeah,you're really like, you have a
lot to say about these issues.
Unless I can prove it with likea billion citations, I'm never
correct.
I was once challenged on thedefinition of abolitionism in a
lecture that I was doing by agraduate student who was also
(33:07):
trans and queer and a person ofcolor.
And they said that I was notusing abolitionism correctly, to
which my mentors, God bless theyhad my back, were like, You're
not coming after our child whoworked so hard on this for
months.
Absolutely not.
I had an entire apology from theprogram from how disrespectful
that was.
And it, I come to find out thatme and this person had similar
literature.
(33:27):
They're a master's student.
I'm not.
I was an undergrad.
It was a challenge to them thatthey didn't appreciate.
And that's, this is the thingwhere it's like you have to
constantly market yourself toeven just be of value in this
economical system.
But if I lived in a, like aculture, they would be like,
wow, you have a lot to offer aslike an individual, as a person
who can mentor, as a person whocan grow, like, let us support
you as a community, like, whereI come from in El Salvador, if
(33:50):
someone falls, you.
Get up together.
Your family comes with you, evenif they don't get it, even if
they're confusing, if they'reangry at you, you get up
together.
When someone cries, you all cry.
And coming and changing in thisAmerican culture has been so
hard for us.
It's, it's, it's a lot, youknow, and it's like, it's not a
culture anymore.
It's an economy.
a.m. (34:11):
I think that scales down to the individual, you know, I
mean, it's a harsh way to putit, and I don't mean it
literally, but I find most folksaren't leading lives.
They're engaged in productivity.
Sam (34:21):
I think that the point is just like you're beyond those
things like your worth is yourworth like you have value
meaning Like I think I'vealready said this but like
Perfect is literally means wholeYou were born whole you were
born perfect.
There is nothing more you canadd to yourself There's nothing
more you can and create and giveto yourself to be perfect You
were already born that way andyou will stay that way till the
(34:43):
day you decide to return to theearth There is there's no part
of yourself.
That isn't enough There's nopart of you that isn't perfect
because that part of you makesyou whole.
Those parts of you areindividually beautiful and they
make you whole.
a.m. (34:58):
Are you by chance familiar with the play Hedwig and the
Angry Inch?
No.
My favorite Broadway play of alltime.
It was off Broadway.
Never made it to Broadway, andthen Neil Patrick Harris and,
and the producers finally got iton Broadway like 15, 20 years
after it is actually a thing in,in, in, in the West Village.
I saw it seven times during itsrun.
They had like four days, NeilPatrick Harris, and then Michael
(35:19):
Hall, Darren Criss, and then,and then the original Hedwig
John Cameron Mitchell, but theOstensibly the story is, I'll
send you the the soundtrack.
It's, it's, it's one scene, thewhole thing takes place and it's
like a rock and roll musical.
Hedwig is, so the surface storyis Hedwig is a trans woman who
has been through this likereally just, you know, set of
(35:41):
traumas, but has this like darkhumorous, you know, but
underneath it with the, whatI've always loved about that
play is I think it's speaking tobeyond.
And just, you know, denyingparts of yourself from a gender
or sexuality standpoint, justall the, the, the things we do
to deny aspects of ourselves andthe culmination of that show at
(36:02):
the end, the song and thelyrics, if you're kind of
reading them, it's like, holyshit.
It's about kind of integratingeverything.
And, and letting go of all thecategories, and it's just, it's
so ahead of its time, it's inthe 90s but anyways, you're
speaking to, I, I, I listen tothat album actually pretty,
pretty regularly, it's a, it's agreat soundtrack.
Scott (36:18):
Fun fact,
a.m. (36:19):
it was written here, right?
Scott (36:20):
Music was written in a garage in Wooster Square.
a.m. (36:23):
Yeah, Stephen Trask wrote the music, and then he and John
Cameron Mitchell, I think,collaborated on the, on the
lyrics.
It started as just a drag show,or drag bar band, where they
just did some songs without theidea of a musical, and then
this, this kind of persona cametogether, and they wrote, you
know, It's spectacular.
It's absolutely spectacular.
Anyway, I mean, I think this isa journey of life and it's, it
was even when we had cultures,it was a journey of life is to
(36:44):
kind of, you know,simultaneously individuate
yourself and find your place inthe kind of the whole scheme of
things, the continuum of time,the continuum, that's what
ancestors are about.
That's what descendants wereabout.
That's what the connection toland is about.
That's what the mythologies wereabout, right?
It was all this kind of processof individuating, but also then
finding yourself.
Yeah.
as part of the whole thing.
(37:04):
And, and now it's not aboutindividuating, it's about
differentiating.
It's about what boxes are youin, and then what shelf do you
belong on, and how much can youget sold for?
And that's kind of life.
Sam (37:15):
Are you familiar with the term intersectionality?
I am, yeah.
Yeah, like that's, that's kindof like what's coming to mind
for me.
Like, for those of you who don'tknow what intersectionality is,
it's a term coined by KimberlyCrimshaw, and they were kind of
like using this in like a lawperspective, but also from a
really feminist perspective.
They were a Black woman ofcolor, and she used
intersectionality to kind ofdescribe the ways that a
person's overlapping identitiescan both exist in a position of
(37:37):
privilege and oppression, andhow when we're addressing things
with people, it's important thatwe understand like A person is
intersectional, they can bothexist in a point of being
privileged, but being oppressed.
And so when we address realissues with these people who are
intersectional, it's importantthat we understand that, like,
these problems are not.
a singular access problem.
(37:58):
They're intersectional.
a.m. (37:59):
Some of the most economically oppressed human
spirits I've ever met, like, youknow, the nature of my work was,
you know, it's been a third to ahalf of my time doing pro bono,
but my core work was like seniorexecutives, big companies,
global, et cetera, you know.
And so by their nature, folkswho are some of the most
economically damaged,suppressed, wounded human
spirits I've met were reallywealthy.
(38:19):
Right.
And so really privileged, likereally privileged financially,
like living lives, multiplehouses, all this.
And yet what that system did tothem in terms of their relation,
and they're not even aware ofit.
A lot of them, right?
They just kind of walk aroundwith this, you know, but what it
did to their disconnection tothe part to their actual
humanity, the things theyactually cared about the thing
they actually, and they're justplaying a role.
(38:40):
They're just playing a role thatis, you know, shiny and, and,
and in a big house and whatever,but there's still, there's still
a product in a box on a shelf.
And unclear what thedisconnection is because
everything's great.
Look at this house.
Look at this other house.
Look at this third house.
Look at the car.
The kids are great.
They're all in great colleges,you know, and yet.
Yeah, man, you're just asdisconnected from your humanity
(39:02):
is the person trying to figureout how to pay the light bill.
Scott (39:05):
So, in those experiences, did you ever get a glimpse at,
like, what the seeds of this,like, not enough feeling drives
a lot of folks, especially.
Once you made it still have thislike still need to grow still
need to have more and more andmore
a.m. (39:19):
listen It's really simple man.
If you just put a little bit ofsalt into the water supply.
Everyone's always thirsty Youknow, I mean you just all you
need to do is put like thissounds dumb All you do is put
grades into kindergarten and bythe time they're in fourth grade
That motherfucker is thirsty allthe time and then you just swap
out the tokens You know, I, Imean, again, I'm oversimplifying
(39:40):
and yet that's the territory.
It's the design of the system,the design of the system from
the go from preschool is what isit you produce that you will get
paid for, whether the payment ispraise acknowledgement.
A cookie sits still in thecorner and you'll have a cookie
is a seed for being a part ofthis economy.
(40:01):
We did not do that as humans forthe vast majority of my time on
the planet.
It was, you can't sit still,great, go run in the field with
a water buffalo.
And so literally at, at, at, youknow, nine months old, sit in
the corner.
Quietly, and you'll get a cookieis the salt in the water that
will make that human perpetuallythirsty.
And then you just design thewhole system around that.
(40:21):
And the better we can get itback to categories, the better
we can get it targeting thething you're most thirsty for
and then slip bits of salt intothat.
You know, the more reliableyou're going to be in the
machine,
Scott (40:33):
what is it about this kind of, you know, going back to
Obama's speech, like, you know,you didn't build that, like, you
know, you built your, your multibillion dollar company unicorn,
but, you know, he was pointingout that he used the roads, you
use the telecommunicationsinfrastructure, you used, you
know, all these different thingsto be able to accomplish what
you did, but.
(40:53):
So, you The self mademillionaire or billionaire is
kind of like the, you know, thehero of the story, at least in
the American economy through thedecades.
a.m. (41:02):
One of the things that the cultures understand, you know,
traditional cultures understand,that we lost, that is like dark
and heavy in this society butit's a practice for me is I am
like, we're sitting here in thisroom, this room is built on
blood and bones, not human.
Sure.
Yes, absolutely.
(41:22):
There were indigenous, you knowpeople say that.
Yeah, absolutely.
There are people who built this,who, whose lives weren't tended
to it, et cetera, but I mean,man, just like the, the living
things that were displacedpermanently, yeah.
So that we can have this roomnow.
I don't think we should teardown all the buildings and, you
know, just kind of sit in thecorner as it were and not
(41:43):
disrupt.
Right.
But I think there is a in aculture.
There's an understanding that weare part of a cycle of a thing.
That the ancestors died for us,that this water buffalo, this
bison, this whatever died forus, and we understand the
sacredness of that, and weunderstand that, and then we
will feed something, right?
There is that, so it's not adon't, you know, have things,
(42:05):
don't eat, it's not that, butit's an understanding that it's
This, this relationship for us,we bury all that.
And so I think a practice is tounderstand that everything I'm,
I'm, like every step I'm taking,everything I'm consuming, is
built on Something's sacrificeand someone's sacrifice.
And so, therefore, now, how doesthat navigate what I choose to
(42:25):
consume, do, etc.?
I can't take a step without itcoming with the price of
somebody's sacrifice.
Joyous sacrifice or unwillingsacrifice, right?
But that's somebody's sacrifice.
Now can I stay awake to thatwithout like just becoming oh my
god.
Oh my god.
I'm a horrible person It's notright.
Can I balance those two things?
I think is one for me personallyis one of the things I found
(42:46):
that is like how I'd navigate
Sam (42:48):
I think like it's like for me the reason to be like the
Star of those things is I'malways relating concepts.
I'm very much like a web conceptperson, but like is this idea of
slow violence or slow violenceis a slow and visible thing that
we don't see.
So, like, great example, right?
Environment, right?
It's, it's slowly dying overtime.
And The people who areoppressed, we don't necessarily
see it being oppressed or hurtor abused in this process, but
(43:10):
over time, you start to see ithappening more and more and
more, it becomes, it becomes sosystematic, so large, you can no
longer ignore it, right?
Like, slow violence was justlike, was kind of started in the
idea of like, the environment,right?
Like, we're killing the planet.
Like, there's no one abuser,there's no one person who did
it, and there's not necessarilyone group of people who were
the, you know, the hurt, theabuse, the person receiving the
(43:31):
harm, until there was likewildfires, and then we're like,
oh, these are the people gettinghurt because of this specific
thing, and I think that's,that's another issue, is kind of
like, we're never reallyidentifying how Our identities
and ourselves as people exist inthese systems where we are being
hurt slowly, quietly, invisibly,right?
By not by any one particularperson, but by a system built by
(43:54):
people.
And we're never reallyidentifying ourselves in that
space and how we can, like, moveaway from that and build towards
better places and build towardsbetter systems that don't hurt
people slowly over time and thenstart this generational cycle of
hurting people over and over andover again.
We just don't see ourselves inthat space.
I don't see myself as a personwho's hurting others, invisibly
(44:16):
and not aware of it.
My actions all have meaning tosomeone.
They are symbolicallyinteracting with someone, they
are creating meaning forsomeone, good or bad.
But unless I'm making space forsomeone to come up to me and
say, Hey, you hurt me and reallysitting with that and really
addressing that, it's notchanging anytime soon.
Scott (44:33):
That concept really resonated with me when I went to
Cuba last year and you sort ofsee The long term effects of
economic policy and absentia,you know, people are making
decisions that have never reallybeen on the ground there and I
went part of a cultural exchangegroup.
So we went in folks houses,artists and musicians and, you
know, family restaurants andthat kind of stuff.
And you really see it as thiskind of, like, slow, like,
(44:58):
economic genocide by basicallymaking people not have access
to, you know, they have accessto just enough, and sometimes a
little less than that.
The thing that really struck me,though, was that the culture
that they had that rose out ofthat adversity, Was just
transmuting all that negativityinto this like joyous music and
(45:19):
art and, you know, there's heavysubjects The music was based on
you know decades before thiseconomic kind of adversity came
to them So they just kind ofamplified that joy that they had
in the early years.
That was generational But, youknow, there's, you know, there's
enough bread for a week, butthat's your monthly allotment,
that kind of stuff.
(45:39):
So you see them sort of, it's,you know, it kind of reminded me
of like punk rock kids that Iknew that were squatting and,
you know, finding equipment tostart a band and that kind of
stuff.
It kind of had that.
a.m. (45:50):
Get a job, you bum.
Scott (45:52):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And, and the thing is like the,yeah, I expected them to be
very.
Mean to Americans because howwould I expect otherwise like,
you know, I'm the oppressor, youknow, I'm the representative
They were open, you know brokebread Shared stories introduced
us to families.
Let's go to an old folks home.
And I'm just the old folks homeThey still believe in the
(46:14):
revolution because they werethere when it happened, but they
were you know, do you want todance?
You know, do you want to do youwant to go out on the porch and
dance with us?
It's that kind of stuff.
So they were very very much Openhearted Because the economy was
secondary.
It was a culture.
a.m. (46:29):
Yeah.
On the, on the kind of sufferingthing, and, and, sorry about
Cuba, but yes, and folks whodon't hang with this
conversation.
Right.
When that's the entry point,it's like you need to
acknowledge the suffering thatyour life causes.
It becomes like, you know, forobvious reasons, right?
And so what I found a moreproductive entry point that then
readies them for The sort ofacknowledgement of the inherent
(46:51):
suffering caused by, you know,how they live is just
acknowledgement of service,like, just that we can't sit in
this room absent.
The cleaning people, none ofwhose names we know, being in
here cleaning the thing.
The electrical company and thepeople who work on the light
grid, making sure that there'spower going to that thing,
right?
So none of that is suffering perse, but it is all service.
(47:14):
Like every moment is informed byservice.
And that conversation, peoplewho are not, Sort of in this
conversation.
Can you have to get behind?
Oh, interesting.
It's like a cool take that on asa practice.
Just pay attention.
Everything you're doing all themyriad like try to see how many
steps you can follow down thepath to see all the different
types of service that areinvolved and you're being able
to see if you already eat thisdonut, right?
And that people can getcomfortable taking on and then
(47:36):
they do that for, you know, amonth or 6 months or whatever,
you know, for their developmentis then at a certain point
becomes okay.
Now, let's look at the otherpart of this, which is who has
suffered.
And who continues to suffer foryou to have this and there's a
little bit more of a, of a, Idon't know, receptivity at that
point to, to that consideration.
Did you, did you want to addsomething?
It looks like you're sittingwith something.
(47:58):
I'm sitting with so many thingsthat I don't know
Kyley (47:59):
where it fits into this conversation.
Y'all were, y'all were, seemedto be going down paths and I was
dancing outside of that, so.
Yeah.
My question that kept runningthrough my mind is, is how much
is that question of how I beframed by what you bump into?
And how does that shape some ofthat?
Because I don't, like, a lot ofhow I be was determined in
(48:22):
really tough experiences.
And seeing what actually, whenI'm I'm up against a wall, what
comes out, and if my lifedoesn't have that, I don't know
how I actually even define thatin some capacity.
And I haven't actually found Inmy time, conversations with
anyone who is clear on who theyare that hasn't experienced
something that was deeplydifficult.
Sam (48:43):
Yep.
Exact same thing I've been doingthis whole week, because of my
therapy, because I have beenasked the same question.
And something that was impartedto me was, when you recognize
the things that you enjoy, whenyou recognize the things that
you do often, like, feel whereit is in your body.
Feel where you are in thatmoment.
Feel the intensity.
Feel, like, who you're with.
And if that resonates with you,Right?
(49:05):
Those are the things that giveyourself meaning beyond just
those experiences that haveshaped that.
It's also this moment thatshapes that as well.
Like, who you are are keys toopen doors to cultural
experiences and to creating anew sense of self.
You are a person who is alwaysgoing to be fluid.
Your identity is always going tobe fluid.
And I think just understandingthat, you know, who you are,
(49:27):
everything you are, is thisbeautiful thing that you can
transmute and change intobeautiful things and you can
take these things that areprivileged, you can take these
things that hurt, you can takethese things that are confusing,
you can rip off that invisibleknapsack, put it on the table,
go through it, rummage around,pull all the things you like,
and really sit there and golike, Well, where's this coming
from?
Who gave me this?
(49:48):
How did this get in my bag?
And then put it back on andtravel on a new journey.
You can use what you have as apositive pathway to success.
All of the things you have arekeys to create positive pathways
to success.
You may not be an anxiousperson, right?
You may just be a person who wasraised hypervigilant and now you
are very aware, but you caredeeply.
You may not be a person who isdepressed.
(50:09):
You may be a person whounderstands what it's like to
hurt very deeply and understandswhen another person goes through
that.
You now have the strength tohelp that person through that.
These are things that you havethat both hurt and help, but how
you choose and the people youchoose to help you support that
positive journey matters.
And that is a culture.
a.m. (50:42):
Thank you for listening to Absurd Wisdom.
This is A.
M.
Bott, and you know,conversation, real human
conversation never actuallyends, but episodes of podcasts
need to.
So we're going to end here.
You can connect with me onInstagram and TikTok at, at
Absurd Wisdom.
You can find DAE on Instagram atdae community or online at
(51:05):
mydae.
org.
Absurd Wisdom is produced anddistributed by DAE Presents, the
production arm of DAE, and we'llbe back with more Conversation
Beyond Understanding nextThursday.
No, is to be within a specific discipline, a specific
(00:33):
world, a specific reality toknow is extremely useful for
getting things done within thatparticular discipline or world
or reality to be an effectivedoctor or a pastry chef or a
financial analyst.
There's much that is critical toknow, but knowing by its nature
is bounded by and in factreinforcing of the reality
within which it occurs.
(00:55):
For 25 years, I've worked withexecutives in large
organizations, grad students,tech entrepreneurs, religious
leaders, and no doubt mytoughest client, myself.
I'm developing the capacity toexplore what lies beyond
knowing, beyond certainty at apractical level.
This work is required for thingslike innovation, but more
importantly, I found that thisinquiry is critical for
(01:18):
maintaining one's humanity.
Oh, and if you're generousenough to be listening to these
conversations, I respectfullysubmit that at any point, if you
feel you understand what I'msaying, you're not listening
deeply enough.
/Hey the voices in today'sconversation are Kyley
Komschlies, Sam Ascensio, andour producer as always is Scott
(01:40):
Amore, all are colleagues ofmine at DAE.
Let's listen in.
This used to be a big, well,it's still a big topic.
This kind of notion of one ofthe conditions of leadership is
letting go of any version of thephrase.
That's how I am in service ofthe impossible future that
you're kind of working on inyour life.
And it's this delicate thing.
Like we are finally, thankfullyat a point in the world where
(02:02):
we're at least beginning.
We're nowhere near, you know,done, but beginning to
acknowledge, you know, thevarious ways of, of, you know,
being, and then with that, thevarious conditions, like we
actually acknowledge mentalhealth conditions, like it's,
you know, I'm not sure what wedo.
To support kids and adults inthe workplace and you know, or
(02:23):
at least you know what we dothat's enough But at least we
are starting to acknowledgeright like the condition called
anxiety.
There's a condition, but thenyeah, we would talk about it
even if there's physicalconditions, there's
Psychological non clinicalconditions, you know, like I am
not a good public speaker liketransactional things like that.
I am introverted, I am shy, I amlike all things that are true
(02:45):
and have evidence to them andshould be tended to and not
pushed in a way that thatcreates breakage, right?
And so the paradox, you know,one of the many paradoxes we've
worked through over the twoyears or longer for, for, you
know, flying engagements onbreaking stuff.
The paradox, one of theparadoxes we engage with is, you
know, For that individual, foryou, how do you navigate this
(03:06):
sort of tending to my conditionor all the various conditions
that make me uniquely me,including positive, quote,
unquote, positive conditions?
I'm really smart.
I'm really a good speaker,right?
Like, how do you even extendbeyond that?
Right?
How do you, how do you both tendto your conditions in a healthy
and self empathetic way, selfcaring way while not being
(03:28):
limited by that's how I am.
So that's, that's the sort oftee up here.
And I have a reason why it'ssort of on my mind, but we can
get to that later if it pops up.
I don't know where to start
Kyley (03:37):
with this, and it starts where my mind has been for the
past little while.
It's kind of an aversion, but itmakes me think about this in
some capacity where somethingI've been very aware of with
people as they talk right now ishow often they focus on the
things that are in their way.
From getting to a place and thatI'm just hyper aware of that.
(03:58):
And I hear some of this languagecoming into those.
I am unorganized.
I have too many things going on.
I'm tired.
I am I am all of that stuff.
And part of me is wondering,like how specifically with like
students and the people we workwith is how do we acknowledge
those things, but also be like,and cool.
(04:19):
So what do you want to do withthat?
Because it can absolutely be inyour way.
Yep.
And how much, how much attentiondo you want to give to it?
How much attention do you wantto give to living, living and
doing the things that are,they're meaningful for you?
Yeah.
So I don't know what to do withit right now, but it's something
I'm paying attention to.
That's what we kind of converse
a.m. (04:34):
through life.
So out of the gamut, if you'vegot something you want to throw
in, I'll defer to you since Ialready talked.
Sure.
Scott (04:40):
Yeah,
Sam (04:41):
okay.
I'll say like, definitely, I amdefinitely that person who, like
in full disclosure, I have amyriad of, like, disorders and
invisible disabilities thatmakes it very hard as an
individual.
Like, it's, it's very differentwhen you have like a physical
disability.
It's like, You know, like, ifgenuinely physically walking
upstairs is not something youcan do because of that
condition, that doesn't meanthat, you know, like, you can't
(05:02):
get to where you need to get.
It just means you needaccommodations to get there, you
know, and it's, I'm not sayingit's always easier, but
sometimes it's, it's harder tokind of deny that case for
people.
Like, yeah.
I mean, you can see me, like, toa degree.
You know, there are somedisabilities that are more
invisible than others, but thereare some where it's like, you're
really gonna ask me to walk upthe stairs right now, like,
like, you can see what I'm goingthrough in this moment.
(05:23):
Like, I can get there at my ownpace, but you need to, like, let
me figure out that space.
So it's really hard as, like, anindividual just in generally
navigating the world with aninvisible disability because
mine tends to be verypsychological.
So it's really frustrating forme because I tell people like,
Hey, I see things in black andwhite.
They're like, No, you don't.
You just need to be more open.
I'm like, No, I'm not like beinglike, you know, like, Oh, like
(05:45):
cutesy.
Like I genuinely have adisability that's on the brink
of psychosis.
That's as near to schizophreniaas possible that my reality is
so distorted to the fact that Ican only exist in black and or
white.
I would love to see the grayzone.
I try to get there, but it's aconcept that I meet for you, not
because I understand it myself.
(06:05):
So, something that, like,happens a lot is, this can be
turned on to yourself or yourloved ones and it can be very
difficult to navigate just eventhe world in that kind of way.
So, in living with oneself, andwith specifically the kind that
I have, which is is sofrustrating because everyone's
always like you have the worstone, you know, yours like kills
like 70 percent of people beforethey're 20 and you like
constantly hear this aboutyourself and what you have and
(06:27):
it's like you spiral some daysbut what I've kind of learned in
this process is like in livingwith oneself and like
understanding those obstaclesyou have it's it's managing
those expectations and likereflecting on oneself like it's
a lot of work a lot ofreflection but there's a lot of
worth that comes with that likefor me oftentimes it's like like
(06:48):
i'm a person who's like livingwith this like it's traumatizing
it's holding me back and likei'm going through a lot of dbt
groups we were like no you're aperson who has this Right, you
live with it, but it doesn'tcontrol you.
And that was something that Istruggled with for a long time,
and I'm still coping through,but understanding that, like,
just because those things causeyou to do those bad things or
(07:11):
things that you don't enjoy, itdoesn't mean that someone can't
understand you, that you aren'tworthy of accommodations or
kindness or love or certainworking things, and it doesn't
mean it doesn't afford youwonderful, beautiful things like
being charismatic or kind orcaring or Deeply emotional about
things because I can be blackand white.
I'm like a hundred percent inwith you.
There's no going back, you know,and that's a strength.
(07:32):
And I think that's managingthose two things is, is really
difficult.
And when we talk about like thisidea of who I am, as opposed to
like what I like, I have, thatmakes me who I am.
Yeah.
a.m. (07:43):
You're just, you're raising for me to say, maybe
there's so much you're raising,but, but the part that I still
have the most physical reactionto is sort of the, the brutality
of, of, I know who you are.
Right.
Like that, that line of, youknow, 70 percent of people that
don't, I like, I don't even wantto repeat the line, right?
Like, that's like, like, to saythat, to say, I know who you
are, you're somebody who's goingto die before they're 20.
(08:03):
Like, what the f And it's not,it's, I, I don't know, I don't
know the context, right?
But those things are often donewith zero malice.
And sometimes they're even doneout of like a concern.
It's like, listen, you're,you're very shy.
Are you sure you want to go intothe debate club?
Like, like it's out of a senseof like desire to protect, but
it's like such a brutality.
Sam (08:25):
Yeah.
Most assuredly, like for me, alot of people are like, Oh, you
have this thing, you're abusive.
Like a full disclosure.
I have borderline personalitydisorder.
It means I'm on the borderlineof a psychosis, you know?
And so it's really difficult.
And so something you always hearis like, A lot of psychiatrists
don't want to work with you.
Oh, they're just reallydifficult.
Oh, like, you never know whatthey're gonna do.
They're unpredictable.
And like, the worst thing for meis, like, as well as a queer
(08:45):
person, going into the therapypractice and being like, yeah,
I'm polyamorous.
I have multiple partners.
I'm like, are you sure that'snot a symptom of your plurter
line?
You know, they all love like,you know, like chasing
affections and I've been like,yeah, I'm in a three year
committed relationship and afour year committed relationship
with a lot of honestconversations.
No, and that's not what I camehere to talk about.
(09:06):
Like, it's, it's deeplyfrustrating to have people
constantly assume who you arebecause of these things.
And then the conversation thenbecomes like, do you even
disclose that, you know, like doyou even talk to people about
like those aspects?
It's like, do you say, I just.
Get a little emotional sometimesor do you say I have the thing
that makes this difficult forme?
Because that changes how peoplesee you and support you, and
(09:28):
it's deeply frustrating.
a.m. (09:30):
So, that's one of the two reasons why this topic is on my
mind, right?
Like, it's We're just at thebeginnings of the stage of
acknowledging that people have,you know, these kind of really
complex set of differences.
But we still, like, one of themain things we're trying to do
is we force people to disclose adiagnosis in order to give
(09:51):
consent for them to Adapt.
Yeah.
The environment in a way, right?
As opposed to this, just me.
I don't need to give you anysort of categorization around
why I need this, as long as itdoesn't mess up what we're
doing.
You know, in the work context,as long it doesn't blow up your
business, lungs doesn't.
Right.
I shouldn't have to give you anyjustification.
This is just how I need to work.
Yeah.
Okay.
(10:11):
And we're not there.
Where do we do this?
It's like, well, I, I have togive a diagnosis, you know?
I say, oh, okay, well in thatcase let's do a, another form of
brutality, you know?
Sam (10:19):
It's, it's, it's deeply frustrating, especially for
individuals who may not haveaccess to healthcare, like, I've
had jobs where it's like, Hey,this is the ass that I have,
this is a genuine thing thathappened to me.
I was like, hey, listen, I havethis thing, I get really
emotional, I'm in a justicefield, I'm going to get
emotional, I'm going to take itpersonal.
If I don't feel heard, if I'mexpressing something to you and
I don't feel heard, I know I'mnot going to take it personal
later, but right now, I'm goingto take it real personal.
(10:42):
Give me a minute to walk awayand talk to a coworker, like,
let off these feelings and thencome to the reality of it.
Because The thing withborderline is that black and
white exist.
I'm not gonna see the reality.
You can tell me the sky is blue.
To me right now, it's red and itlooks red.
It is red.
It's just how it is.
Give me like 10 minutes.
I'll pass that, but I need thatmoment.
The only thing I asked for wasjust a work buddy I could talk
(11:03):
to.
I was denied the accommodationbecause I didn't have.
the medical reports that provedthat I had this disorder and
they actively told many of theco workers not to speak to me to
the point that I was like unsurewhat was happening and my
legality became reallydiscerning.
I was like, am I going to getfired?
Like what's going on?
And they're like, no, you'refine.
I'm like, but everything aroundme is not making sense, which is
making this diagnosis worse.
(11:25):
And also you're not giving me myhealth care benefits so that I
can get there.
Also, you don't have an HRdepartment.
Also, you don't have somebodywho's like supportive.
Like I'm confused and it waslike, no, everything's fine.
It was the point that I had sucha bad mental breakdown that I
like just didn't show up towork.
And they were like, oh, how dareyou take off work without
medical leave?
And I was like, what?
(11:46):
Like, I told you what happened!Like, this was going to ha I
warned you of the impendingissues, and they're like, Well,
you need to show a specifichistory and have specific
doctor's notes, and it's like,okay, like, But if I didn't
disclose this to you, everythingwould have been fine?
Like, what's the trade off here?
There's no policies, there's nodocuments, like, I have to
constantly read policies andthis back and forth, like, brawl
(12:08):
of, like, Am I me or am I this?
Do I have to do this?
How do I meet these standards soI can get what I need?
Like it's never just like, hey,I need to leave in this moment.
I just, I just need to stepaway.
It's never just like, okay,cool, step away.
And I'm cool.
It's just, that rarely happensin spaces.
And it's just, I just don'tunderstand how people don't
understand, like, You can makespace for people to talk about
themselves and disclose this,and that's great, but there are
(12:29):
times where you don't need to,and you can just understand a
person is a person, like beyondthese identifiers.
a.m. (12:35):
Yeah, we're, we're many thousands of miles from, from,
from, from that inorganizations, right?
It is, it is the ongoing andever more acute failure.
Of, of, you know, HR to actuallydo anything human right.
It is this sort of absence of,of any understanding of what
actual human interaction is likeand kind of a default to
(12:56):
policies, process, category, etcetera, but none of which you
would do in your personal life.
And, and yet somehow we blindlykeep doing it in organization
thinking.
That's the way it should be.
Related to that, the big thingthat got me on this topic is
there's a series of articlesI've seen recently, and yeah,
these things come in waves, andyou know, Gen Z is bringing
anxiety into the workplace.
Look at a first batch of Gen Zshowing up in corporate
(13:17):
environments, and they're allanxious, and they, you know.
And so, yeah, I've seen articleson different perspectives on
this one sort of, in essence,complaining about, you know, how
The generation is not able todeal with the pressures of like,
it wasn't overtly saying that,but that was kind of the thesis
and then the others being more,you know, it's a generation that
has these sort of issues and theworkplace doesn't know how to
deal with it.
(13:37):
And, you know, balance that andproductivity and all that, the,
like, I think this has alwaysbeen the case or, you know,
like, I, you know, I'm, I'mconcerned with the industry, the
era I got born into.
So when I say always, you know,the industrial era, the, the
kind of, you know, the 20thcentury, I think it's been the
case, but it is so acute now, Ithink.
Like everything you've saidabout, you know, self disclosing
(13:57):
about your, your kind ofconditions and yet you move
forward because there'scommitment there, right?
I think one of the things thathappens is these things become
more, like, they're legitimatefor me, right?
Like, I have, you have to talkabout, I have anxiety, I have,
I've had lifelong depression,right?
These things are real for me.
And then if I find myself in aplace where I'm not actually
(14:18):
committed, where I'm kind oflike, I guess I got to do this.
Because of X, Y, and Z, then itbecomes like a true reinforcer
now of, well, but that's how Iam, and so I can't, you know,
and I think we have, again, Ithink it's been true for the
last century, but I thinkrapidly accelerating last 20
years, we have created anenvironment of minimal
(14:41):
ontological consent, like whopeople are expected to be.
They have not consented to, andthey're not up for it.
I'm not saying that's the causefor, you know, the mental health
issues.
Like, I mean, there's a myriadcomplex, you know, from the
processed foods we eat to the,you know, potential that we're
going to blow up the planetbefore this generation has
grandchildren.
(15:02):
And like, it's all right.
So it's not, you know, there's awhole host of issues.
But I do think that that thereare so few people who are living
lives that they're actuallycommitted to it, particularly in
the workplace and educationwhere we tend to focus on
education in the workplace.
And I think it just furtherexacerbates because if I'm not
committed and I legitimatelyhave.
(15:22):
conditions.
It just ups the ante on, well,that's how I am.
I can't, I don't want to, etc.
Don't make me.
Sam (15:29):
You brought up such a good point.
This is something I've beenactually dealing with this week
is like, I, one of the thingsfor me is like managing my
emotions, my reactions, and theintensity of those reactions is,
is a complex dance for me.
So sometimes when I feelfrustrated about something, I'm
not sure if I should be feelingthat, or if my intensity of it
is correct.
And so this week I've been kindof trying to explore like, when
(15:51):
I'm frustrated about things, ismy intensity valid, or is that
something that I've told thatI'm not okay with?
And something I've kind of cometo understand is like, I have
been told most of my life thatlike, anger, frustrations,
expressing that it's bad, anyintensity is bad, even if The
whole world around you isvalidating that.
It's still not okay.
And I think that's somethingthat's, it's deeply frustrating
for me because there are justtimes where I'm like, I just
(16:12):
don't like understand something.
I don't get it.
And I'm always told, just, justgo with the flow.
And I'm like, but I don't getit.
I don't understand, or this isfrustrating for me.
I want clarity.
And I think it's, it'sdefinitely like.
I don't think it's just that GenZ's bringing anxiety into the
world.
I think it's more just, they'reacknowledging that it's a part
of, of it.
Like, anxiety comes from like,wanting to meet your deadlines,
or wanting to do work well, orcaring about the thing deeply,
(16:35):
or because something's taughtyou that it's scary, right?
But if you can change how, youknow, we interact with each
other, we can change the meaningof those things, which I think
really ties to like, termsymbolic interactionism, which
for anybody who's not heard ofsymbolic interactionism is
basically the idea it's asociological theory posited by
George Herbert Mead.
And it basically states that insymbolic interactionism, the
(16:56):
meaning we make of things comesfrom the interactions we have
with those things.
So language, symbols, a day today interactions, face to face
interactions, like we createmeaning and derive those meaning
and change that meaning.
through those daily livedinteractions, and therefore
those meanings are fluid.
So anxiety could have been like,we keep that at home, but
through the interactions thatGen Z's having like, on TikTok,
(17:19):
in conversations, on one on one,in symbols, in language, and I
understand it's like, no, thisis a thing.
That I have, I live with, andneeds to be addressed in all
spaces of my life.
And now we're having tochallenge this because we have
two types of symbolicinteraction, ones that come from
generational ones that havedifferent versions of how we see
anxiety in this new generation,and it's coming into clashing
(17:40):
ideologies, and now we're notsure what to do with it because
one's becoming fluid and one'svery rigid.
And I think that's kind of whatI'm, like, I'm kind of hearing
and seeing from the situation.
Interesting.
Kyley (17:51):
Yeah, I think about myself.
I found out as an adult thatalmost the entirety of my family
has some form of depression.
And we've never talked about it.
Like, it was never aconversation.
It wasn't even something youkept at home.
It just wasn't something thatexisted.
So, like, I, like, evencontemplating, like, I'm happy
and open and talking about itnow, but, like, It wasn't even
part of a thing.
What, 15 years ago when I was inhigh school?
(18:13):
20 years ago when I was in highschool?
The conversation wasn't evenreal.
I didn't talk about my friends.
It wasn't even language in theworld.
Ditto.
Yeah, same here.
a.m. (18:22):
Life's hard.
You get down sometimes.
Sometimes you get really down.
That's just what it is.
Go for a walk.
Have a drink.
Whatever.
Kyley (18:32):
But it wasn't like, I didn't even have that
conversation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
My, my parents, my mom is a, thecontinual positive, whatever
language you want to, like,what's, she greets me on the
phone, what's, what's good andexciting?
Like, the conversation that washard wasn't even part of my
existence.
And my dad's language was, Whatare we grinding on today?
You know, like what, what are weaccomplishing?
a.m. (18:53):
Two very classic coping mechanisms.
Scott (18:55):
Right.
But I think it, that lendsitself in my experience to
people my age and older, my, mygeneration and older tend to
look at millennials and Gen Zand say, Like, you know, the
equivalent of like, get off mylawn.
Like, what's your problem?
You know, like what, get ittogether or something like that.
And I think what's happeningseems to me like it's a symptom
because I feel like thosegenerations are the first ones
(19:16):
that aren't guaranteed a futurethat's better than the previous
and our generations were on somelevel and there's an anxiety
built into just living.
That, you know, they don't seethe, they don't see the pay at
the end, especially if they seetheir elders with depression,
kind of just, you know, goinginto old age and nursing homes
and stuff and just kind of, youknow, Just being for the rest of
(19:37):
their life.
They don't see that as apromising end to what they're
trying to accomplish
a.m. (19:41):
I think Scott I mean again these things we talk about
globally like so I don't meanthis in a blank way But I I
think that might be true forsome Millennials this kind of
notion of you know My life isnot going to be better than my
parents and that was always thecase I think younger Millennials
and certainly Gen Z why whateveris next?
I don't know the younger I Ithink it's actually deeper than
(20:02):
that.
It's not it's it.
Oh The whole thing was bullshit,wasn't it?
This whole kind of escalating dobetter, better, better.
That whole thing was bullshit.
You guys bought into it.
I get it.
We we're not, we're ready forsomething.
Yeah.
I I, I don't think it's evenlike, I think millennials were
resentful, like, oh, boomerstook everything and I can't
Rick, but I think the youngerones are like, not even like,
(20:23):
I'm not resentful.
No.
I want better.
I want different, you know
Sam (20:27):
That's so true.
Kyley (20:28):
There's not even security and failure like like
millennials have security likeah, it's gonna be bad because
y'all mess it up I see not evensecurity and internalize that.
a.m. (20:37):
Yeah, I mean, listen, Gen X and early Millennials are
going to continue to fuck thingsup, but I'd love to live long
enough for these younger folks,assuming that they may, I mean,
listen, we could have said thesame thing in the sixties and
said, Oh, my God, the hippiesare going to solve everything.
Because, you know, the visiblepart of, but in reality, that
was like 8 percent of thepopulation and that's, you know,
Reagan, Reagan voters in themaking.
(20:58):
You made a lot of noise.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, so I'm, I'm cautiouslyhopeful, but, but listen, you
talk about, you know, the gen,like, I didn't realize
generational depression, Iwouldn't have if it weren't for
my daughter.
Yeah, like she raised like, youknow, everybody in the family's
got this pattern.
I'm like, oh, you're right, youknow, and she and she jokes.
She's like, I'm doing therapyfor 14 generations.
(21:19):
I'm like, and I'm joining you inthe effort.
I think it's
Sam (21:21):
God.
That's the same thing thathappened to me and my mom,
whoever think that maybe youcame from a serious war and
maybe just affected the way youraise your kids.
She's like, well, we neverthought about this from like, I
know.
Scott (21:31):
You know, my family was always like, you know, they're
older too.
So they were from the depressionera and the war era.
And they were like, you know, ifyou made it just made it out
alive of either of those timeperiods, you won.
a.m. (21:45):
And this is, listen, this is, this is bouncy because I, I
can say that not onlygeneration, like for me as an
immigrant, again, the storieskind of grew up without plumbing
and seven people in 400 squarefeet, like, you know, like this
place, basically seven of uswere in like this room, a little
bigger.
And so, so this is like weirdkind of balancing.
Like I, I can find myself onboth sides of it and I'm on the
one side of like, Oh my God,this is so great.
You guys are doing this.
(22:06):
And the other side of it, do youfucking know what a luxury is?
And you have time and space to.
Do this instead of worryingabout how you're going to keep,
you know, the tank of water inthe corner last for the next
three days for the seven of us.
Right.
The get off my lawn sort ofmindset.
And like so much else, becausewe don't have these
conversations publicly, becauseit is more just a stichotomous
(22:27):
kind of, you know, get off mylawn or let's, let's.
You know, I had one, it's ahorrible way to put it, but it,
you know, let's cancel all theolder generation.
Maybe that's how I want to sayit for their lack of
sensitivity.
Yeah, yeah, right.
It's like one or the other.
It's just ongoing, you know,kind of dichotomous conversation
that doesn't get at what'sactually hopefully
Sam (22:45):
happening.
I'll definitely say like, I'mdefinitely one of those people
just like, burn it all, burn itall.
Like, I don't, I don't adhere tolike a lot of these systems.
That's very much like, ifsomething's going on, it's like,
you could do that.
I'm not gonna waste my timedoing that.
Like, that's something you areabout, not me.
Like, my dad's very much like,oh, this is how we worked.
I'm like, yeah, but was yourthing not you worked hard so I
(23:06):
could have a better life?
That's great that you'd have to,but here's another problem.
Why did the system even causeyou to have to go through that
in the first place?
This is not on me to fix agenerational issue that you went
through because the system hurtyou.
We should be, like, addressingthat system of inequality that's
causing this to happen in thefirst place.
You shouldn't have to, like,travel here and then, like, live
(23:26):
in poverty and, like, feelunwelcomed and unwanted and then
try to provide the best for yourkids.
You should already have theresources to do that.
That's not fair to you, that'snot fair to anybody, and no one
should have to go through that.
Like, no one should have to gothrough forced labor, no one
should have child, like, labor,like, everyone should have
healthcare, like, no one'sillegal, like, you are who you
are, we are, we're not gettingrid of queer people, like,
(23:48):
people of color matter, and theyhave real life experiences, and
like, those experiences matter,and like, we cannot understand
those experiences unless we makespace for that, and I'm not
gonna sit here and pretend likeI know all those things, I
don't, but I'm very much for asystem where that starts to
happen more often, and that'svery much in dichotomy with a
lot of people.
It's like, oh, you have no ideawhat I've been through.
(24:08):
Like, you know, you have no ideawhat it's like.
I was like, you know what?
You don't know what it's like tohave like mental health issues
and disabilities and talk aboutit and address it because now
you have to do the trauma workthat comes with decolonizing
yourself.
That's work, you know?
And it's, it's a part of who weare as a generation, I think.
Got my vote.
a.m. (24:25):
It's it's particularly like the real sort of sort of
underline for for me Sam is isis something that you know I've
talked about this over as wellBut Bucky full of Buckminster
Fuller named in the 60s and theyfeel so true in the 60s It is
infinitely true now, you know,he said listen, we're done.
We have enough Ability to feedhouse and close everyone that we
(24:46):
should stop now chasing andfigure out how to create a
society Where people can selfactualize and create and make
art and be comfortable.
That is so true right now Wehave the resources globally that
everybody on the planet shouldbe able to just live and pursue
a thing that gives themfulfillment at small scale or
large scale.
We have the, there's no excusefor it.
(25:07):
There's no reason why Mark needsthat island in the Pacific and
the, you know, like, it's justno reason for this.
It's silly.
Kyley (25:14):
We spend enough money on defense.
To do that.
Yeah, yeah,
a.m. (25:17):
yeah.
It's, it's, it's easy to take ashot at Mark and let me wheel
that one back.
Yeah.
It is more systemic than that.
Yeah.
It's not a handful ofbillionaires, although they're
not helping.
I guess I
Kyley (25:24):
pointed that one in particular, like we spend enough
money on war to make it where wedon't need to war if we don't
want to.
Yeah.
It's
Sam (25:32):
so funny because Kay asked me this question all the time
where it's like, what would youdo if you got like a million
dollars or for something likethat?
And I was like, oh, that's supereasy.
I would start a scholarship fundfor individuals who might not
have schooling.
I would make sure that like, youknow, people don't have to live
like in like, like houselessnessor I would create like programs
or I would address actualsystemic issues and programs
that were going on.
And he was like, you're thefirst one to like, say something
like that.
(25:52):
I was like, what do you mean?
He's like, well, most people saythat they would keep it or
invest or do all these things.
Like, yeah, I would invest, butgive back to these like
organizations or try to buildsomething.
But the problem that I have withthat, and this is a question I
haven't.
Fighting with a lot of peoplelately and I mean by fighting is
like internalized with myselfand and like discussing with
others It's like there's a lotof like social construct that's
going on Like there aresystematic issues at at play in
(26:14):
a lot of ways and and some ofthose things deeply frustrate me
And this is what I'm gonna bringup and I don't care how
controversial it is is I do notthink charity is a good thing I
don't.
Because, right, we are alwayshoping that someone volunteers
their time, donates money, andthat is going to be sustainable
enough, or like, that enoughgrants are going to support non
(26:35):
profits and things like that tojust contribute and support
communities in the ways that thegovernment could fill, entirely
fill, and not even fillthemselves.
They can support theseorganizations through funding.
Entirely like making sure thattheir employees are paid and and
health care and all these thingsThere's enough money to do that
But it's always on the goodwillof other people trying to
(26:57):
support a goodwill effort Andtherefore this reinforces these
systematic issues that we're notactually addressing.
It's like oh look we're helpinghomelessness We have a whole
like a homeless shelter.
It's like yeah That's great, butwhat are you doing to fund that
beyond just making a place?
That's not helpful.
It's a systematic issue
a.m. (27:15):
As the person who's got to keep Finding money for the stem
place.
I am very much behind thatpolicy platform
Sam (27:21):
So what I'm saying is like you shouldn't have to like meet
these metrics to say like oh Wecare about students who are
doing enough to support thesestudents.
It's like If you truly believein what we're doing, right, give
us the tools to be successful,rather than us constantly have
to prove to you that we are,because if your whole idea is
like, everyone should have aneducation, then give us the
tools to provide everyone aneducation, and give us the
(27:42):
training to do that, you know,give us the space to have that,
and that's the problem is like,oh, well, you know, D.
A.
E.
's covering these students andsupporting these students and
teaching them and making themfuture educators, like, you
know, you're getting credits.
Why are you mad?
You know, you're just, if youget more credit, you get more
money.
Like it's not viable.
That doesn't address thesystematic issue.
There's no support for thesestudents to get these skills.
a.m. (28:05):
So I'm working on the first of these video essays.
I'm planning on starting torelease like every quarter.
And the very first one issomething I said in the first
podcast, which is, you know,for, for all of our time on the
planet, we were born into aculture.
And the culture had a story, andthe culture had a cuisine, and
it had gods, and it had, youknow.
And if you were born in the lastcentury, particularly in the
(28:25):
West, but now, if you're bornanywhere on the planet, you're
not born into a culture, you'reborn into an economy.
And so, to me, like, the, youknow, the bottom line,
fundamental challenge around allof this stuff and all the other
stuff we've talked about is thatwe fundamentally need a new
story about what it is to behuman.
Or, more accurately, we need togo back to the old story of what
(28:46):
it was to be human.
Because in the last couple ofhundred years, the story of
being human is, we are aneconomic animal.
Not that we've never had aneconomic life, we've always had
an economic life.
But that wasn't the center ofwhat it meant to be human.
Our culture, our people, our,our cuisine, our, you know, now
that was tribal or, or, youknow, kind of, kind of parochial
and local, right?
(29:07):
And so now it's a moreheterogeneous version of our
people, right?
Our community or whatever thatis, but, but a culture, right?
To be of a culture versus to beof an economy because in an
economy, these things keep, thisis the sort of thing that keeps
coming up.
We can't get to where you'repointing to because we have to
keep transacting.
We have to keep making better,more.
Culture understands.
(29:28):
Don't plant more crops there,but an economy doesn't.
The economy says, plant morecrops there, figure out what we
have to do to get that done,forget about 10 years from now.
But the culture says, no, 10years from now and 100 years
from now, our greatgrandchildren will be great.
And so, don't, don't plant anymore crops there.
And then now take that out andstretch it across everything.
Like, that's the core problem.
Sam (29:48):
Yeah, I feel like it's hard to build an identity in a system
that doesn't want you to haveone.
And it's like It's kind of like,you know, you start to identify
yourself by these things thatproduce capital.
And like kind of what you'resaying is you become a creature
of an economy.
You know, you become a personand it's like, Oh, I am shy.
(30:09):
I am not a leader.
Therefore I do not have worthbecause unless I can find a way
to give those things where to anemployer in the future on my
resume, why does it matter?
And it's like,
a.m. (30:18):
so, so, so this, this gets at the punchline I wanted to get
to, right.
Which is the way you're sayingthe sin.
And so what happens is theseconditions in this, in this
society become.
The two things decide knows howto do one is the additional sort
of attributes to your specsheet.
Like this part in the machinehas these, you know, seven flaws
to it.
So when you're putting it intoit's, you know, a place in, in
(30:41):
the machine, understand don't,right.
The second thing it does is theother thing that the system and
this mindset and the story knowhow to do is to understand how
to market to you better.
Cool.
Here are the more niche thingswe can sell you.
Oh, you have anxiety.
Cool.
These are the more niche thingswe can tell you.
Do you have you heard about thecalm app?
Have you heard about right?
And so that's what thesecategories conditions do is they
(31:02):
they they push away from whereyou're pointing to and i'm
certainly an advocate Of right.
It's like i'm unique phenomenaon the planet But i'm no more
important than any other uniquephenomena that's happened But I
am in fact a unique phenomenaand no category captures me,
right?
And it pushes us towards hereare your categories and now
here's the way you can andcannot be useful Productivity
standpoint and hear the moreniche ways that we can sell you
(31:24):
shit amplified by a
Scott (31:26):
need for people to curate their public appearance through
social media and stuff.
So it's, you know, look at me.
I'm great.
And, you know, I'm guilty of ittoo.
Like, you know, try to set out acertain.
Way that you look to the publicand stuff, but you know,
sometimes you need to calm outto be able to maintain it.
I like,
Sam (31:41):
I do it too, and I genuinely hate it with a
passion, and I think I was, Iwas talking to Kyley about this
the other day, where I was like,I'm trying to go for a
doctorate, several, severalissues with this.
One, the doctorate I knowdoesn't exist, like, there's no
like, LGBT doctorate thatdoesn't exist, right?
Second problem is, it's money.
Third problem is with mydisability.
It's hard to navigate school aspecific way.
So when you apply to school,they're like, yeah we're, you
(32:04):
know, this department that caresabout DEI right?
And it's like, cool.
How many people from like lowereconomic standards that aren't
like this peak high do you takein?
Most of the time it's none and Iwas telling Kyley it's like,
it's so great how I'm a personwho's done a lot of research.
I have a lot of livedexperiences and a lot of my
(32:24):
praxis is built on understandingwhat I've done in school through
the privilege of being able tohave higher education and
recognizing that but also thelived experience of Like I have
been houseless.
I have been attacked.
I have experienced really scarytrans issues like personally And
i'm constantly reading about itand i'm never really seeing
myself in this which is why Iwant to pursue this kind of Like
(32:45):
scholarship and yet Everypathway is a blocker.
Every pathway, unless I am thisperfection, is a blocker, and I
am never heard.
It's never like, oh, yeah,you're really like, you have a
lot to say about these issues.
Unless I can prove it with likea billion citations, I'm never
correct.
I was once challenged on thedefinition of abolitionism in a
lecture that I was doing by agraduate student who was also
(33:07):
trans and queer and a person ofcolor.
And they said that I was notusing abolitionism correctly, to
which my mentors, God bless theyhad my back, were like, You're
not coming after our child whoworked so hard on this for
months.
Absolutely not.
I had an entire apology from theprogram from how disrespectful
that was.
And it, I come to find out thatme and this person had similar
literature.
(33:27):
They're a master's student.
I'm not.
I was an undergrad.
It was a challenge to them thatthey didn't appreciate.
And that's, this is the thingwhere it's like you have to
constantly market yourself toeven just be of value in this
economical system.
But if I lived in a, like aculture, they would be like,
wow, you have a lot to offer aslike an individual, as a person
who can mentor, as a person whocan grow, like, let us support
you as a community, like, whereI come from in El Salvador, if
(33:50):
someone falls, you.
Get up together.
Your family comes with you, evenif they don't get it, even if
they're confusing, if they'reangry at you, you get up
together.
When someone cries, you all cry.
And coming and changing in thisAmerican culture has been so
hard for us.
It's, it's, it's a lot, youknow, and it's like, it's not a
culture anymore.
It's an economy.
a.m. (34:11):
I think that scales down to the individual, you know, I
mean, it's a harsh way to putit, and I don't mean it
literally, but I find most folksaren't leading lives.
They're engaged in productivity.
Sam (34:21):
I think that the point is just like you're beyond those
things like your worth is yourworth like you have value
meaning Like I think I'vealready said this but like
Perfect is literally means wholeYou were born whole you were
born perfect.
There is nothing more you canadd to yourself There's nothing
more you can and create and giveto yourself to be perfect You
were already born that way andyou will stay that way till the
(34:43):
day you decide to return to theearth There is there's no part
of yourself.
That isn't enough There's nopart of you that isn't perfect
because that part of you makesyou whole.
Those parts of you areindividually beautiful and they
make you whole.
a.m. (34:58):
Are you by chance familiar with the play Hedwig and the
Angry Inch?
No.
My favorite Broadway play of alltime.
It was off Broadway.
Never made it to Broadway, andthen Neil Patrick Harris and,
and the producers finally got iton Broadway like 15, 20 years
after it is actually a thing in,in, in, in the West Village.
I saw it seven times during itsrun.
They had like four days, NeilPatrick Harris, and then Michael
(35:19):
Hall, Darren Criss, and then,and then the original Hedwig
John Cameron Mitchell, but theOstensibly the story is, I'll
send you the the soundtrack.
It's, it's, it's one scene, thewhole thing takes place and it's
like a rock and roll musical.
Hedwig is, so the surface storyis Hedwig is a trans woman who
has been through this likereally just, you know, set of
(35:41):
traumas, but has this like darkhumorous, you know, but
underneath it with the, whatI've always loved about that
play is I think it's speaking tobeyond.
And just, you know, denyingparts of yourself from a gender
or sexuality standpoint, justall the, the, the things we do
to deny aspects of ourselves andthe culmination of that show at
(36:02):
the end, the song and thelyrics, if you're kind of
reading them, it's like, holyshit.
It's about kind of integratingeverything.
And, and letting go of all thecategories, and it's just, it's
so ahead of its time, it's inthe 90s but anyways, you're
speaking to, I, I, I listen tothat album actually pretty,
pretty regularly, it's a, it's agreat soundtrack.
Scott (36:18):
Fun fact,
a.m. (36:19):
it was written here, right?
Scott (36:20):
Music was written in a garage in Wooster Square.
a.m. (36:23):
Yeah, Stephen Trask wrote the music, and then he and John
Cameron Mitchell, I think,collaborated on the, on the
lyrics.
It started as just a drag show,or drag bar band, where they
just did some songs without theidea of a musical, and then
this, this kind of persona cametogether, and they wrote, you
know, It's spectacular.
It's absolutely spectacular.
Anyway, I mean, I think this isa journey of life and it's, it
was even when we had cultures,it was a journey of life is to
(36:44):
kind of, you know,simultaneously individuate
yourself and find your place inthe kind of the whole scheme of
things, the continuum of time,the continuum, that's what
ancestors are about.
That's what descendants wereabout.
That's what the connection toland is about.
That's what the mythologies wereabout, right?
It was all this kind of processof individuating, but also then
finding yourself.
Yeah.
as part of the whole thing.
(37:04):
And, and now it's not aboutindividuating, it's about
differentiating.
It's about what boxes are youin, and then what shelf do you
belong on, and how much can youget sold for?
And that's kind of life.
Sam (37:15):
Are you familiar with the term intersectionality?
I am, yeah.
Yeah, like that's, that's kindof like what's coming to mind
for me.
Like, for those of you who don'tknow what intersectionality is,
it's a term coined by KimberlyCrimshaw, and they were kind of
like using this in like a lawperspective, but also from a
really feminist perspective.
They were a Black woman ofcolor, and she used
intersectionality to kind ofdescribe the ways that a
person's overlapping identitiescan both exist in a position of
(37:37):
privilege and oppression, andhow when we're addressing things
with people, it's important thatwe understand like A person is
intersectional, they can bothexist in a point of being
privileged, but being oppressed.
And so when we address realissues with these people who are
intersectional, it's importantthat we understand that, like,
these problems are not.
a singular access problem.
(37:58):
They're intersectional.
a.m. (37:59):
Some of the most economically oppressed human
spirits I've ever met, like, youknow, the nature of my work was,
you know, it's been a third to ahalf of my time doing pro bono,
but my core work was like seniorexecutives, big companies,
global, et cetera, you know.
And so by their nature, folkswho are some of the most
economically damaged,suppressed, wounded human
spirits I've met were reallywealthy.
(38:19):
Right.
And so really privileged, likereally privileged financially,
like living lives, multiplehouses, all this.
And yet what that system did tothem in terms of their relation,
and they're not even aware ofit.
A lot of them, right?
They just kind of walk aroundwith this, you know, but what it
did to their disconnection tothe part to their actual
humanity, the things theyactually cared about the thing
they actually, and they're justplaying a role.
(38:40):
They're just playing a role thatis, you know, shiny and, and,
and in a big house and whatever,but there's still, there's still
a product in a box on a shelf.
And unclear what thedisconnection is because
everything's great.
Look at this house.
Look at this other house.
Look at this third house.
Look at the car.
The kids are great.
They're all in great colleges,you know, and yet.
Yeah, man, you're just asdisconnected from your humanity
(39:02):
is the person trying to figureout how to pay the light bill.
Scott (39:05):
So, in those experiences, did you ever get a glimpse at,
like, what the seeds of this,like, not enough feeling drives
a lot of folks, especially.
Once you made it still have thislike still need to grow still
need to have more and more andmore
a.m. (39:19):
listen It's really simple man.
If you just put a little bit ofsalt into the water supply.
Everyone's always thirsty Youknow, I mean you just all you
need to do is put like thissounds dumb All you do is put
grades into kindergarten and bythe time they're in fourth grade
That motherfucker is thirsty allthe time and then you just swap
out the tokens You know, I, Imean, again, I'm oversimplifying
(39:40):
and yet that's the territory.
It's the design of the system,the design of the system from
the go from preschool is what isit you produce that you will get
paid for, whether the payment ispraise acknowledgement.
A cookie sits still in thecorner and you'll have a cookie
is a seed for being a part ofthis economy.
(40:01):
We did not do that as humans forthe vast majority of my time on
the planet.
It was, you can't sit still,great, go run in the field with
a water buffalo.
And so literally at, at, at, youknow, nine months old, sit in
the corner.
Quietly, and you'll get a cookieis the salt in the water that
will make that human perpetuallythirsty.
And then you just design thewhole system around that.
(40:21):
And the better we can get itback to categories, the better
we can get it targeting thething you're most thirsty for
and then slip bits of salt intothat.
You know, the more reliableyou're going to be in the
machine,
Scott (40:33):
what is it about this kind of, you know, going back to
Obama's speech, like, you know,you didn't build that, like, you
know, you built your, your multibillion dollar company unicorn,
but, you know, he was pointingout that he used the roads, you
use the telecommunicationsinfrastructure, you used, you
know, all these different thingsto be able to accomplish what
you did, but.
(40:53):
So, you The self mademillionaire or billionaire is
kind of like the, you know, thehero of the story, at least in
the American economy through thedecades.
a.m. (41:02):
One of the things that the cultures understand, you know,
traditional cultures understand,that we lost, that is like dark
and heavy in this society butit's a practice for me is I am
like, we're sitting here in thisroom, this room is built on
blood and bones, not human.
Sure.
Yes, absolutely.
(41:22):
There were indigenous, you knowpeople say that.
Yeah, absolutely.
There are people who built this,who, whose lives weren't tended
to it, et cetera, but I mean,man, just like the, the living
things that were displacedpermanently, yeah.
So that we can have this roomnow.
I don't think we should teardown all the buildings and, you
know, just kind of sit in thecorner as it were and not
(41:43):
disrupt.
Right.
But I think there is a in aculture.
There's an understanding that weare part of a cycle of a thing.
That the ancestors died for us,that this water buffalo, this
bison, this whatever died forus, and we understand the
sacredness of that, and weunderstand that, and then we
will feed something, right?
There is that, so it's not adon't, you know, have things,
(42:05):
don't eat, it's not that, butit's an understanding that it's
This, this relationship for us,we bury all that.
And so I think a practice is tounderstand that everything I'm,
I'm, like every step I'm taking,everything I'm consuming, is
built on Something's sacrificeand someone's sacrifice.
And so, therefore, now, how doesthat navigate what I choose to
(42:25):
consume, do, etc.?
I can't take a step without itcoming with the price of
somebody's sacrifice.
Joyous sacrifice or unwillingsacrifice, right?
But that's somebody's sacrifice.
Now can I stay awake to thatwithout like just becoming oh my
god.
Oh my god.
I'm a horrible person It's notright.
Can I balance those two things?
I think is one for me personallyis one of the things I found
(42:46):
that is like how I'd navigate
Sam (42:48):
I think like it's like for me the reason to be like the
Star of those things is I'malways relating concepts.
I'm very much like a web conceptperson, but like is this idea of
slow violence or slow violenceis a slow and visible thing that
we don't see.
So, like, great example, right?
Environment, right?
It's, it's slowly dying overtime.
And The people who areoppressed, we don't necessarily
see it being oppressed or hurtor abused in this process, but
(43:10):
over time, you start to see ithappening more and more and
more, it becomes, it becomes sosystematic, so large, you can no
longer ignore it, right?
Like, slow violence was justlike, was kind of started in the
idea of like, the environment,right?
Like, we're killing the planet.
Like, there's no one abuser,there's no one person who did
it, and there's not necessarilyone group of people who were
the, you know, the hurt, theabuse, the person receiving the
(43:31):
harm, until there was likewildfires, and then we're like,
oh, these are the people gettinghurt because of this specific
thing, and I think that's,that's another issue, is kind of
like, we're never reallyidentifying how Our identities
and ourselves as people exist inthese systems where we are being
hurt slowly, quietly, invisibly,right?
By not by any one particularperson, but by a system built by
(43:54):
people.
And we're never reallyidentifying ourselves in that
space and how we can, like, moveaway from that and build towards
better places and build towardsbetter systems that don't hurt
people slowly over time and thenstart this generational cycle of
hurting people over and over andover again.
We just don't see ourselves inthat space.
I don't see myself as a personwho's hurting others, invisibly
(44:16):
and not aware of it.
My actions all have meaning tosomeone.
They are symbolicallyinteracting with someone, they
are creating meaning forsomeone, good or bad.
But unless I'm making space forsomeone to come up to me and
say, Hey, you hurt me and reallysitting with that and really
addressing that, it's notchanging anytime soon.
Scott (44:33):
That concept really resonated with me when I went to
Cuba last year and you sort ofsee The long term effects of
economic policy and absentia,you know, people are making
decisions that have never reallybeen on the ground there and I
went part of a cultural exchangegroup.
So we went in folks houses,artists and musicians and, you
know, family restaurants andthat kind of stuff.
And you really see it as thiskind of, like, slow, like,
(44:58):
economic genocide by basicallymaking people not have access
to, you know, they have accessto just enough, and sometimes a
little less than that.
The thing that really struck me,though, was that the culture
that they had that rose out ofthat adversity, Was just
transmuting all that negativityinto this like joyous music and
(45:19):
art and, you know, there's heavysubjects The music was based on
you know decades before thiseconomic kind of adversity came
to them So they just kind ofamplified that joy that they had
in the early years.
That was generational But, youknow, there's, you know, there's
enough bread for a week, butthat's your monthly allotment,
that kind of stuff.
(45:39):
So you see them sort of, it's,you know, it kind of reminded me
of like punk rock kids that Iknew that were squatting and,
you know, finding equipment tostart a band and that kind of
stuff.
It kind of had that.
a.m. (45:50):
Get a job, you bum.
Scott (45:52):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And, and the thing is like the,yeah, I expected them to be
very.
Mean to Americans because howwould I expect otherwise like,
you know, I'm the oppressor, youknow, I'm the representative
They were open, you know brokebread Shared stories introduced
us to families.
Let's go to an old folks home.
And I'm just the old folks homeThey still believe in the
(46:14):
revolution because they werethere when it happened, but they
were you know, do you want todance?
You know, do you want to do youwant to go out on the porch and
dance with us?
It's that kind of stuff.
So they were very very much Openhearted Because the economy was
secondary.
It was a culture.
a.m. (46:29):
Yeah.
On the, on the kind of sufferingthing, and, and, sorry about
Cuba, but yes, and folks whodon't hang with this
conversation.
Right.
When that's the entry point,it's like you need to
acknowledge the suffering thatyour life causes.
It becomes like, you know, forobvious reasons, right?
And so what I found a moreproductive entry point that then
readies them for The sort ofacknowledgement of the inherent
(46:51):
suffering caused by, you know,how they live is just
acknowledgement of service,like, just that we can't sit in
this room absent.
The cleaning people, none ofwhose names we know, being in
here cleaning the thing.
The electrical company and thepeople who work on the light
grid, making sure that there'spower going to that thing,
right?
So none of that is suffering perse, but it is all service.
(47:14):
Like every moment is informed byservice.
And that conversation, peoplewho are not, Sort of in this
conversation.
Can you have to get behind?
Oh, interesting.
It's like a cool take that on asa practice.
Just pay attention.
Everything you're doing all themyriad like try to see how many
steps you can follow down thepath to see all the different
types of service that areinvolved and you're being able
to see if you already eat thisdonut, right?
And that people can getcomfortable taking on and then
(47:36):
they do that for, you know, amonth or 6 months or whatever,
you know, for their developmentis then at a certain point
becomes okay.
Now, let's look at the otherpart of this, which is who has
suffered.
And who continues to suffer foryou to have this and there's a
little bit more of a, of a, Idon't know, receptivity at that
point to, to that consideration.
Did you, did you want to addsomething?
It looks like you're sittingwith something.
(47:58):
I'm sitting with so many thingsthat I don't know
Kyley (47:59):
where it fits into this conversation.
Y'all were, y'all were, seemedto be going down paths and I was
dancing outside of that, so.
Yeah.
My question that kept runningthrough my mind is, is how much
is that question of how I beframed by what you bump into?
And how does that shape some ofthat?
Because I don't, like, a lot ofhow I be was determined in
(48:22):
really tough experiences.
And seeing what actually, whenI'm I'm up against a wall, what
comes out, and if my lifedoesn't have that, I don't know
how I actually even define thatin some capacity.
And I haven't actually found Inmy time, conversations with
anyone who is clear on who theyare that hasn't experienced
something that was deeplydifficult.
Sam (48:43):
Yep.
Exact same thing I've been doingthis whole week, because of my
therapy, because I have beenasked the same question.
And something that was impartedto me was, when you recognize
the things that you enjoy, whenyou recognize the things that
you do often, like, feel whereit is in your body.
Feel where you are in thatmoment.
Feel the intensity.
Feel, like, who you're with.
And if that resonates with you,Right?
(49:05):
Those are the things that giveyourself meaning beyond just
those experiences that haveshaped that.
It's also this moment thatshapes that as well.
Like, who you are are keys toopen doors to cultural
experiences and to creating anew sense of self.
You are a person who is alwaysgoing to be fluid.
Your identity is always going tobe fluid.
And I think just understandingthat, you know, who you are,
(49:27):
everything you are, is thisbeautiful thing that you can
transmute and change intobeautiful things and you can
take these things that areprivileged, you can take these
things that hurt, you can takethese things that are confusing,
you can rip off that invisibleknapsack, put it on the table,
go through it, rummage around,pull all the things you like,
and really sit there and golike, Well, where's this coming
from?
Who gave me this?
(49:48):
How did this get in my bag?
And then put it back on andtravel on a new journey.
You can use what you have as apositive pathway to success.
All of the things you have arekeys to create positive pathways
to success.
You may not be an anxiousperson, right?
You may just be a person who wasraised hypervigilant and now you
are very aware, but you caredeeply.
You may not be a person who isdepressed.
(50:09):
You may be a person whounderstands what it's like to
hurt very deeply and understandswhen another person goes through
that.
You now have the strength tohelp that person through that.
These are things that you havethat both hurt and help, but how
you choose and the people youchoose to help you support that
positive journey matters.
And that is a culture.
a.m. (50:42):
Thank you for listening to Absurd Wisdom.
This is A.
M.
Bott, and you know,conversation, real human
conversation never actuallyends, but episodes of podcasts
need to.
So we're going to end here.
You can connect with me onInstagram and TikTok at, at
Absurd Wisdom.
You can find DAE on Instagram atdae community or online at
(51:05):
mydae.
org.
Absurd Wisdom is produced anddistributed by DAE Presents, the
production arm of DAE, and we'llbe back with more Conversation
Beyond Understanding nextThursday.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.