August 28, 2024 • 45 mins
We catch up with Jimmie Dale Gilmore and Dave Alvin while they’re on the road touring their new album, Texicali. Great collaborators and friends, our guests reflect on writing and playing together, defying genre expectations, acoustic guitars, and (most importantly) having a good time.
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Additional Resources:
- Visit Dave Alvin's website.
- Visit Jimmie Dale Gilmores’s website.
- Learn to play Alvin's "King of California" in the May 2007 issue of Acoustic Guitar magazine.
- Learn to play "Dallas" by the Flatlanders in the November 1996 issue of Acoustic Guitar magazine.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast theme music is composed by Adam Perlmutter and performed for this episode by Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers.
This episode is hosted, directed, and edited by Joey Lusterman and produced by Tanya Gonzalez. Executive producers are Lyzy Lusterman and Stephanie Campos Dal Broi.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is produced by the team at Acoustic Guitar magazine, including:
- Publisher: Lyzy Lusterman
- Editorial Director: Adam Perlmutter
- Managing Editor: Kevin Owens
- Creative Director: Joey Lusterman
- Digital Content Director: Stephanie Campos Dal Broi
- Digital Content Manager: Nick Grizzle
- Marketing Services Manager: Tanya Gonzalez
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (00:00):
Music is just magic and it's kind of
relentlessly wonderful.
It keeps on being, and playingmusic is a little bit more fun
than talking about it, buttalking about it is really fun.
Joey Lusterman (00:15):
Welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm Joey Lusterman, your hostfor this episode.
I was lucky enough to sit downwith Jimmie Dale Gilmore and
Dave Alvin while they were onthe road touring their new album
'Texicali'.
I've long admired both of theseartists.
Each has a storied career withback catalogs full of musical
treasures, On their own or withthe Flatlanders or the Blasters,
Gilmore and Alvin have helpedshape the sounds of what we now
(00:36):
call alternative country, butthey explore many iterations of
roots music Honky Tonk, folk,punk, Americana, you name it.
Our conversation iswide-ranging too.
Listen closely and an overalltheme emerges: the joy of
playing music with a friend.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (01:04):
To that point.
Let's start the episode withAlvin and Gilmore performing
their new song "we're Still here.
If you've never had trouble,never been alive.
I've had my share.
I survived.
Listen, the way up ahead maynot be clear, but I ain't
(01:33):
worried, cause we're still here.
I had a wild time in Houston atthe Allen Parlor Inn Long,
sleepless night Of temptationand sin.
But when they tore that jointdown, you know I shed a tear.
(01:54):
Now the Allen Park's gone, but,jimmy Dale, we're still here.
Yeah, we're still here.
Yeah, we're still here.
We're still here.
We're still standing.
No matter what, you are here,we're still here.
(02:19):
We're still here.
We just keep on rolling.
We're still here.
We just keep on rollin'.
Well, we do, cause we're stillhere.
Yeah, for one more, if you'venever gone crazy, you've never
(02:45):
been in love.
Uncomplicated romance is unheardof.
Love's a tangled tale of hopeand fear, but I'm willing to try
, cause we're still here.
(03:06):
Well, the music was a spin, butthe music was a smile, said.
The songs I write Sound realold and way out of style, but
I've been bopping these bluesfor over 40 years.
I don't know where he is now,but I've been boppin' this
little broker for a year.
I don't know where he is now,but give me that.
(03:31):
We're still here.
Yeah, we're still here.
We're still here.
We can keep on landin', nomatter what you might hear,
we're still here, we're stillhere.
(03:51):
We just keep on rolling, causewe're still here.
(04:12):
Well, new York City, land ofcash and concrete.
We went the wrong way down aone-way street, so true, so true
.
We made it to that.
So it's perfectly clear.
If you could make it too,ladies and gentlemen, we're
(04:35):
still here.
Yeah, we're still here.
We're still here, we're stillhere, we're still here, we're
still standing.
No matter what you might hear,we're still here, we're still
(05:12):
here.
Dave Alvin (05:13):
We just keep on rolling, cause we're still here.
Well, we'd known each other fora couple of decades but we'd
never really sat down and playedmusic together, especially just
the two of us.
It was usually sing-alongthings at the end of a night,
(05:38):
and then a guy by the name ofMike Leahy thought that pairing
us together would be fun for acouple of gigs.
So we started in Denton, texas,and it was about midway through
that show I started thinking weshould maybe make a record
together Because we found inthese shows that we were doing
where it was just Jimmy Dale andme with acoustic guitars that
(06:00):
we found all this stuff outabout each other that we didn't
know.
One was a real important onefor me.
There used to be this club in LAfrom the 50s to the early 70s
called the Ash Grove, and that'swhere you could see everybody
from Lennon Hopkins to ReverendGary Davis, mance Lipscomb,
(06:21):
ralph Stanley, bill Monroe,clarence White, johnny Shines.
You know all sorts of greatblues, bluegrass, folk
performers.
And I never knew Jimmy Dalewhen he was a young man and
journeyed out to California.
He was hanging out at the AshGrove and my brother Phil and I
(06:41):
my older brother Phil and I whenwe were little little kids, we
started sneaking into theAshgrove and so we had this
Ashgrove connection and we weyou know, jimmy got to be pals
with the lightening and and SunHouse and Brownie McGee and
stuff, and my brother and I gotto be friends with lightening
and Big Joe Turner and T-boneWalker and and and I got to be
(07:05):
friends with Lightning and BigJoe Turner and T-Bone Walker and
Eddie Cleanhead, benson andSonny Terry and Brownie McGee.
My brother took harmonicalessons from Sonny Terry, you
know, and it was all because ofthe Ash Grove.
So we had this connection and Iwas just like wow.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (07:18):
And I was a kid, but I already had a wife
and a kid at that time.
And we hung out, the three of us, joe, carroll and Elise and I
went to the Ash Club, all wecould.
There was like one kind of halfa year that we were in LA.
So Dave and Phil are youngerthan me, but we eventually found
(07:43):
out when we were doing thistour together that we both had
been there at the same time.
That all well, all three of us.
I don't know, we drew me atthat point we didn't know each
other, of course but the thingis because both of us, I think,
have been pretty stronglystereotyped.
You know, we've been, each of ushas been categorized in a genre
(08:07):
or a pigeonhole, and I kind ofthink that even maybe both of us
did that.
Like Dave said, we were friends, we had met each other and Dave
even wrote some stuff about meback in the days when I was
being really promoted by ElektraRecords and all that.
(08:27):
Well, high Tone originally, andthen None Such and then Elektra
.
But Dave and I we got to befriends, but I think we kind of
we perceived each other's musicas being way not the same, you
know.
And then so when this littleexperiment came up, I thought
(08:53):
and I think maybe Dave thought Ieven was, it did.
I was telling people that I wasabout to retire, I was telling
I was gonna quit.
But Mike said what do you wantto do this thing?
That's a sure that sounds fun.
That's not the trouble of havinga band and all that.
So we went out and justimmediately it was so much fun.
(09:14):
I thought, though, I'm going todo a song and Dave will do a
song, and I'll do a song andwe'll tell stories.
But right away it started beingthat the old songs that I had
done solo, before I ever was aband person, was stuff like that
I learned at the Ash Grove orthat I learned in that period,
(09:36):
you know, from records and uh,and it was like Dave knew all
these songs.
It was like we had a repertoirealmost built in and somehow it
worked out that the different.
It seems to turn out that thekind of people that liked Dave's
(09:59):
music but never heard of mesort of liked the combination,
and then vice versa the samething.
You know people that myfollowing that weren't into the
blasters or the punk thing andall that, but when they heard
Dave play and sing it was likewith me it just fit.
Joey Lusterman (10:21):
Yeah, it's funny you bring up genres because you
have, you know, you are from alittle different places with,
like, country alt, country cowpunk and that kind of thing, but
it all is coming from similarroots and americana music.
And like when you got togetherand did a version of stealing,
the two of you, when you wereputting those two records
(10:43):
together and going back to one,traditional songs like stealing,
but also you went back throughyour own catalogs and so what
was it like learning eachother's songs?
Dave Alvin (10:53):
oh, fun, the whole thing's fun, you know, I mean
going back and playing songslike stealing or broke down in
your blues, or betty and Dupreeor KC Moan, the old Memphis Jug
Band number that's just goinghome.
And I always thought that JimmyDale he did some blues on all
(11:17):
of his records but I alwaysthought that he was an
underrated blues singer and hereally is one of the best.
And so on both albums theDowney to Lubbock album and then
the new one, texacali I'm kindof like maybe you should do a
little more blues there, jimmyDale, you know you're a pretty
good blues singer.
Let's do some blues, you know.
(11:39):
But you know that's also.
Genres to me are just, you know,they're a marketing tool,
that's all you know.
(12:02):
Like when musicians gettogether, you know they don't
really, I guess Texas Playboys,miles Davis, jimmy Hendrix and I
don't know, big Spider Beck andyou put them all in a room
together, the first thingthey're going to do is, okay,
(12:22):
let's play a blues, you know,let's get to know each other and
play the blues.
So genres are just things that,like I said, they're more for
marketing than they are for themusicians.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (12:36):
I think all the best musicians I've ever
known did not have boundaries,like the categories, like that.
They just like music.
So some of it is there's anartificial distinction that's
(13:00):
made just purely for totally,totally, I think, misguided
business purposes.
I think it's been, in a way,both a problem and a goad.
It's a double-edged sword, youknow, because it does produce
(13:24):
For one thing, people love it, Ithink, when they discover that
they actually like somethingthat they didn't think they
would like.
Dave Alvin (13:38):
Both of our careers.
One of the things that's thesimilarity as opposed to the
differences is, both Jimmy Daleand I like to play with genres.
We like to say, okay, well,let's bend this out of shape.
And you know, like on the newalbum there's an old country
song called why I'm Walking,originally done by Stonewall
(14:00):
Jackson.
You know, and you know the wayhe did.
It was pretty.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (14:06):
I got an angel in my mind that's why.
I'm walking.
Dave Alvin (14:14):
And I just thought, well, why don't we do it like
Stonewall Jackson, you know,because Jimmy can sing the hell
out of it.
But you know, we don't reallyneed another country version of
it.
And I just thought, well, let'smake it a New Orleans R&B
number and pretend that, youknow we're down at Cosmo
Matassa's studio in New Orleanswith Dave Bartholomew and Earl
(14:37):
Palmer and Lee Allen and thewhole Fats Domino band, you know
, and give it that kind ofgroove.
So it became you know, you know, and just playing with genres,
so that you know it could passas a blues song, it could pass
as a country song, it could passas a rock song, and what's the
(14:57):
process like for reimagining asong like that?
Joey Lusterman (15:00):
I mean, you're moving up the neck, but you're
thinking a different rhythm too.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (15:04):
In this case I really couldn't envision
it.
When they brought up the idea,I thought I love that song, I
love Stonewall Jackson and it'sso country.
His version of it is just likedistilled country music from
like the stuff that my fatherliked the most.
(15:27):
He played guitar too and wasyou know my very early years
were I was completely steeped inHank Williams and like that,
and then up into StonewallJackson was later, but he was
one of my favorites and so Ithought I can't do that.
Dave Alvin (15:48):
I can't.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (15:49):
Stonewall Jackson has already done this
perfectly.
I can't do that.
And Dave was.
He was hearing he was having avision of this other way of
doing it and then, almostimmediately, as soon as the, we
got the groove going and then Istarted singing it.
And I'm singing.
I'm trying to stay to the samemelody that Stonewall Jackson
(16:14):
did, but it fit it just fit andit's fun, really fun and really.
And so some in different cases.
In that case I think I was soentrenched in a way of thinking
about the song that I couldn'timagine whatever dave was
imagining.
I think in in some other ways II have that too.
(16:35):
I can jump world pretty easy,you know.
But that was a.
And also Dave wanted me to do aBlind Willie McTale song and I
had somewhat missed that.
The Piedmont, he called it thePiedmont Blues thing.
(16:58):
I sort of.
I had heard maybe a couple ofcuts or something, but I was
really enmeshed in the time,well, in the Ashgrove time and
all that Sunhouse, and of courseLightning.
Lightning is uncategorizable,he's not any of those, he's just
(17:20):
lightning.
But Sunhouse and Robert Johnson.
Joey Lusterman (17:27):
Elmore.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (17:27):
James, the city version of the Delta Blues,
that's more where I had beenentrenched, and so I had a hard
time learning to sing the BlindWillie McTale thing because I
kept doing it kind of the wayOmar James would have done it,
(17:50):
and but once again it turned outthat I wouldn't have thought of
that to begin with, but itturned out to be just great
learning experience.
Joey Lusterman (18:00):
Did you push Dave into any new territory
during these projects?
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (18:04):
I guess only in the sense of, because
some of my stuff is sort of somelodic and kind of like, I
don't know, ethereal orsomething, and Dave is great at
that, but it's not his normal uhterritory I think that's a good
(18:27):
way to say it.
Joey Lusterman (18:28):
Meat and potatoes, old meat and potatoes,
dave I really like the versionof uh, I'm forgetting the name
now, but the deportee yeah ohyeah, woody gutter woody guthrie
song, although I first learnedit from a John Baez record.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (18:45):
John Baez was a huge influence on me and
she partially led me, eventhough I was at the age when I
started learning how to playguitar and everything was just
at the time of the folkexplosion.
And that's what I was in lovewith songs, you know, with
(19:07):
stories and melodies and stuff,and I kind of regretfully now I
never did focus on learning toplay the guitar like I think I
could have if I had looked at itthat way, but I was real
focused on the lyrics, you know,and and the emotion of of the
(19:31):
stories and everything, and butthe the Joan Baez opened up.
You know, I, I think you know alot of the young people now
don't really know what a pioneershe was, how you know, she did
things like she had FredHellerman play.
(19:54):
Well, fred Hellerman was fromthe Weavers and was blacklisted
all that time and John Baez lethim back in.
She was, it had been longenough and she was popular
enough to let that happen.
But she introduced a lot ofpeople to Woody Guthrie and, of
(20:15):
course, to Bob Dylan, and it'sinteresting how the things
intertwine.
And it's interesting how thethings intertwine.
You know, I was steeped incountry music but I became way
more influenced really by whatwe'd call roots I guess,
(20:38):
especially blues roots, I guessespecially blues when I
discovered that the blues wasthe bedrock of most of the music
I liked most, including HankWilliams.
Well, once again, lots ofmusicians are more interested in
where their music came from andin the history in musicology
(21:02):
than a lot of just the listeningpublic.
People just like something ordon't, they don't too much care
about it, but a lot of musiciansare like, wow, that sounds like
I can hear what you know this,this, I can hear what you know.
Merle Haggard sang just likeLefty Frisell.
Dave Alvin (21:27):
Well, and Lefty Frisell was somebody that I
loved from childhood, and nowhe's basically unknown, but Well
, musicians are always lookingfor you know, if you play a good
song and you play it well orwhatever, it's magic right.
And so musicians are like.
Joey Lusterman (21:47):
How'd you do that?
Dave Alvin (21:48):
Part of that is okay , I'm playing this, this, the
guy's playing this, this, thisand this.
Okay, I gotta learn that.
But then you go.
Well, who wrote the song?
And then, oh, I never heard it.
I got to check out that guy.
That's another secret of themagic trick.
But with Deporte we'd beendoing it in this format of just
(22:10):
me and Jimmy Dale Acoustic onthat tour.
But when we went in the studioto record it the night before, I
sat up and watched and listenedto 143, no, I'm not kidding
versions of Deporte and I wasjust making mental notes of okay
(22:30):
, don't do this, don't do this,don't do that don't do that and
so we went in, you know, becauseit's such a great song and it
just has to be those kind ofsongs have to be handled with
kid gloves but at the same timeyou kind of got to push it a
little to make it your own, andI knew Jimmy was singing the
hell out of it, and so insteadof having mandolins and
(22:53):
accordions and sort of thethings that are on every version
, it was like, okay, let's makeit very ethereal and ambient and
kind of spooky, Like you'reactually kind of there in Los
Gatos Canyon at the night of theplane wreck.
So you just kind of picturethat stuff in your brain and try
(23:14):
to do it differently.
Joey Lusterman (23:16):
It took me back to your record Braver Newer
World, which I feel like hadsimilar kind of like
otherworldly sounds and slideguitars that are really
evocative and everything likethat Jimmy Dale's an
otherworldly guy.
Did you two write together atall for this project?
Dave Alvin (23:33):
We wrote the title track Downy to Lubbock together
and we wrote the we're stillhere together what was that
process?
well, we write differently.
We're different kind of writersand you can tell you know like,
and we're still here.
You can tell Jimmy's versesfrom mine pretty easily.
But what we did on both songswere with some songwriters, you
(23:56):
know, when you co co-writeyou're there for hours oh,
what's another word fortangerine?
But with Jimmy Dale and I itwas actually kind of more in the
old folk tradition of we werejust throwing out lines.
I remember with Downy toLubbock I came up with the first
verse and the chorus, a littleidea and then Jimmy Dale, when
(24:18):
we were just in the studio, juststarted throwing stuff out.
That was like wow, that's great.
No, keep that.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (24:25):
I was learning the song and I had no
idea I wasn't thinking of thisas going to be what we'll keep.
I was just kind of learning thefeeling and everything.
I was just kind of learning thefeeling and everything and then
it was kind of like, okay, nowI'll go, I'll go back to the
(24:46):
hotel and I'll write some versesto it.
That'll be real good here andDave goes no, we're keeping that
.
It was weird.
Dave Alvin (24:54):
Yeah, cause sometimes you know you get in
the studio and you don't let'ssay, you don't know the song
that well, and you're kind ofditzing around.
How does this go?
How does this?
Joey Lusterman (25:04):
go.
Dave Alvin (25:04):
And you play your best stuff and then you know, 14
hours later you might get backto where you were at the
beginning.
But you know, sometimes it'sgood just to grab stuff right.
As it happens, it's the, youknow.
Sam Phillips, the producer andowner of Sun Records, is one of
my heroes, so it's kind of morethe Sam Phillips thing.
(25:24):
Grab it, you know, Get thatmoment, Capture the moment, you
know.
Joey Lusterman (25:27):
You had mentioned that playing shows
together was a lot of fun, andI'm wondering if you have any
specific memories, either fromthis more recent tour or going
way back when you were justfriends, about times you spent
together.
Dave Alvin (25:41):
My favorite memory was playing the first time we
played the Troubadour down inWest LA you know, storied,
legendary club right.
And Jimmy Dale has been in alot of bands.
He's been in a lot of countryrock bands, a lot of country
bands, a lot of folk musicensembles, a lot of bluegrass
bands, a lot of this, a lot ofthat.
But he'd never been in a rockand roll band and that hadn't
(26:06):
registered on me.
Really, you know, because theFlatlanders can rock pretty hard
.
But my band's a rock and rollband, you know, and we were
doing Downy to Lubbock at theend of the set and Jimmy was
doing his harmonica solo andwe're really hard in the groove,
right, everybody's in thepocket.
(26:27):
And I looked down at JimmyDale's feet and his feet were
dancing and I was like he nowknows he's in a rock and roll
band and I think he likes it andthat was my favorite one.
That was when I said, oh, thisis all worthwhile.
Look at, this is good.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (26:43):
That reminds me of the strange fact
that when Dave and I were justdoing the duet thing, one thing
was it caused me I had playedharmonica long, long, long ago,
back in the time when I playedjust solo all the time and and
then I hadn't for many, manyyears, because I always.
(27:05):
When I started doing bands andstuff, I figured out okay, the
secret to this is is havingpeople that are better than me
and everything you know, andI'll do the singing and I'll
strum a little guitar, but I getreal people to play the lead
and play the.
You know the rhythm section andeverything.
(27:28):
So I stopped.
I didn't play the harmonicaanymore, for golly.
I mean 25 years or something.
You know a long, long, longtime.
And so one night I pulled itout I don't remember what for.
I remember him looking at megoing you play the harmonica.
(27:49):
Because we kind of needed it.
We needed something else, youknow, something that we can
handle it with just two guitarsand two voices, but it helped.
And so Dave started making meplay the harmonica.
All the time I didn't think ofmyself as a harmonica player and
(28:10):
then now, because of it, I'verediscovered that I can do that
and that I like doing that.
Dave Alvin (28:16):
Yeah, it's one of the lessons of punk rock
discovered that I can do thatand that I like doing that.
Yeah, it's one of the lessonsof punk rock.
You don't have to be LittleWalter or Sonny Bo Williamson or
Snooki Pryor or Sonny Terry,just make some noise.
And the joyous quality of that,because when Jimmy plays
(28:38):
harmonica I think it's aconstant source of discovery.
That's happening right there.
It's not like a guy that's gotall the little Walter Licks
memorized and can do it.
It's just wow, this is fun.
You're a kid again in a garageplaying music with your pals.
Joey Lusterman (28:57):
Going back to the song, you mentioned that you
were always driven by the songand not as much as by the guitar
parts.
I'm wondering do you remembersome of the first songs you
wrote and kind of what was inyour head that you said I need
to write a song?
Well, I was first inspired.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (29:16):
I kind of think that somehow all my life I
was interested in a lot ofother stuff.
When I was younger and I was areader, I read books all the
time and I was real.
I ended up actually the littlebit of college I did.
I studied philosophy, I studiedlinguistic analysis, and
(29:39):
symbolic logic was the mainthing.
Those are the only things thatI didn't flunk out of.
I made A's and O's in the coupleof years I did in college.
But I think I always had justkind of assumed that I was going
to be a songwriter, a singer, asongwriter.
But when I was younger be asongwriter, a singer, a
(30:02):
songwriter but when I wasyounger, I think I'm pretty
certain that I had this imprintin my head that I'll be a
songwriter someday.
But you have to be old andexperienced.
and la la la, and I went to a atour high school there was a
Halloween carnival one time andoff in this one dark room there
(30:22):
was this guy over in the corner.
He was a.
He was somebody that was acouple years older than me.
I kind of knew who he was.
I didn't really know him and wesaw they're playing the piano
and singing.
It was Terry Allen and he Terrywas Alan and he Terry was.
(30:46):
He was doing his own songs andthey were just great and they
were not like anything on theradio or anything I was familiar
with and but from that so I wasin high.
That means that I was early inhigh school, you know, because
he was a couple years older andwe were still in school together
and that started me writing myown songs instead of just
(31:10):
learning everybody else's songs.
And that was the and in a waythat was kind of it was sort of
once I got over that hurdle ofthinking that I wasn't supposed
to be doing it because I was tooyoung or something.
It sort of came automatic to me, although not in the sense I've
(31:36):
never been prolific, althoughnot in the sense I've never been
prolific.
It's just it's only if.
If an idea hits me and then ifit stays with me for a while in
it, then I'm not real good atlike taking an idea and then
just sitting down and making ithappen.
You know that doesn't work verywell for me, but it.
(31:58):
But if something kind of comesand then and something in some
cases it's like where I've hadan idea not, and I've gone this
is good, I'm gonna work on this.
But then finally, when adeadline comes around, that's
when I go, okay, I will sit downand finish this thing.
But it's uh, and I don't know ifthat answers your question at
(32:19):
all, but that's kind of how Igot, how it started out.
For me, terry Allen was a realimportant part of my musical
life.
Joey Lusterman (32:31):
We actually became really good friends after
that.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (32:34):
So it you know.
But then I didn't know him atthat at the time that he
inspired me so much.
Dave Alvin (32:41):
For me, the greatest songwriting lesson I ever got
was from the blues singer, bigJoe Turner, and my brother, phil
, and I and our friends used tofollow him around from gig to
gig when I was like 13, 14 yearsold, and so one day, walking
home from school, I wrote thissong for him in my head and I
had everything in my head.
And I had everything in my head.
I had the horn section, thehorn parts, I had the lyrics, I
(33:04):
had the melody, I had the drumbeat.
I had the groove, and walkinghome is about a mile and a half
from school, and so I'm walking.
By the time I got home I hadthat song.
So the next time I saw Big JoeTurner, a few days later, I said
to him Big Joe, I wrote a songfor you.
And Big Joe said well, how's itgo?
(33:26):
And I just stood there going ah, ah, ah.
And I couldn't rememberanything.
And finally Big Joe Turnerlooks at me and he goes well, if
you can't remember it, it ain'tno good to begin with.
And that was my firstsongwriting lesson and that's
stuck for ever since.
Joey Lusterman (33:45):
Earlier, we were talking about Happy Tram, who
recently passed away and both ofyou had connections to him.
Is that right?
Dave Alvin (33:54):
I didn't really have a connection to him outside of
that was the first music bookthat I bought with chords, chord
diagrams, and this and theother was his book on how to
play the blues and it was how toplay a lot of Piedmont style,
reverend Gary Davis and BrownieMcGee stuff, and so it just the
(34:18):
name alone just had like oh mygod you know he was a Mount
Rushmore kind of guy and then,around 2018 or 19, jimmy Dale
and I in my band, the GuiltyOnes, we played at Levon Studio
up there in Woodstock and hecame to the gig because, as
(34:39):
Jimmy will tell you, they wereall friends, but I was.
Can I cuss?
Joey Lusterman (34:45):
Yes.
Dave Alvin (34:46):
I was scared shitless Because it was like I'm
a rock and roll bar room bluesbasher as opposed to a
machine-like finger picker, andthere's Happy Trauma and we're
talking and we're introduced andI was like oh god damn, why'd
(35:07):
you have to come to this?
Why'd you have to come to anygig of mine?
You know you're going to leaveunhappy, trust me.
And then afterwards he was alllike, oh, I really love the show
.
And I was like, wow.
But yeah, my first response washappy trauma.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (35:23):
God, I'm dead, you know and I've had the
same thing that his books andhappy and Artie, his brother,
who died several years ago whatthat was, their books and their
instruction tapes and all that.
I had learned a whole lot fromthem.
(35:43):
And then, many years later, Igot to be friends with them and
we did some shows together.
By the time this happened inWoodstock, he was an old friend
of mine, so I wasn't intimidatedby him being there.
And so I wasn't intimidated bybeing there.
I was.
So this is always comical to me, the idea that Dave gets
intimidated by other guitarplayers.
Dave Alvin (36:04):
Oh God, yeah, and I'll play everybody.
No, I can't.
No, I've had my butt kicked somany times by guitar players
that I have no ego when it comesto guitar.
But I will say this I get mypoint across when I'm playing.
Joey Lusterman (36:22):
And that's the best thing you can do.
Did either of you ever teachmusic to anybody?
Songwriting guitar?
Dave Alvin (36:26):
I taught a songwriting class.
Yeah, jimmy does one every year.
I did it once at your most,your McCalkin ins for peace
ranch.
They, they did a specialwhatever session of the Fur
Peace Ranch but they did it outin the middle of the California
desert at this old motel and itwas great and I taught
(36:50):
songwriting for a week and I hadto pat myself on the back.
I was pretty good at it becausethere was a couple guys that
knew how to write songs and Isussed them out right away.
It's like, okay, you've takenother classes, you know, you
know what a bridge is, you knowwhat a chorus is, you know what
a pre-bridge is, you know what apre-chorus is, you know.
(37:11):
But the rest of the guys didn'thave a clue.
But by the end of the week theywere songwriters and I gotta
say I did a good job with them.
Hopefully, if they're listening, love y'all, miss y'all, hope
to see you soon, but yeah and Ialso did one of Yarmouth's
(37:33):
things for a piece, but it was.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (37:39):
It was with Bill Kirchhen and up, but it
but the way I do it.
I I have taught as a class oneone week of the year for 27
years now at the.
Omega Institute in upstate NewYork, so that's part of it, so
it's close to Woodstock and allthat.
There's some crossroads.
(38:00):
But I don't really I don'tteach.
What I do is I curate asituation where the class
teaches itself and I stick in alot of stuff, I stick in a lot
of insights and I've said topeople a lot that that it's
(38:20):
actually about my favorite thingI've done in my music career,
because what it did was from the, from the very beginning of it.
It started making me thinkabout and and kind of figure out
how to articulate things that Iwas doing automatically,
(38:41):
unconsciously, kind of thinkingabout my own process and then
hearing all the different waysthat other people think I
remember early on in maybe thefirst year that I did things,
there came this one point wheresomebody in the class something
got said in one of the and theysaid what.
(39:05):
You write the words before youwrite the melody.
And the other person was likewell, what do you mean of chorus
?
Joey Lusterman (39:13):
You write the melody before you write the.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (39:14):
It's like little things like that.
It's like people are justdifferent, you know, and they
come at things from differentangles, and the fun of
discovering that music is justmagic.
It's magic and it's kind ofrelentlessly wonderful, it keeps
(39:40):
on being, and playing music isa little bit more fun than
talking about it, but talkingabout it is really fun.
And there's one thing I'll tellyou with Dave and the Guilty
Ones, which is Chris Miller andLisa Pankratz and Brad Fordham
(40:03):
they, the three of them, andDave, and particularly Dave it's
like they all have thesememories, these storehouses of
memories, of knowledge of music,of all kinds of music, and I
don't have that anymore.
I have spotty memories aboutthings that really imprinted me
(40:25):
and everything and they rememberthings like who was on the
sessions when this cut was doneand stuff like that, and I love
it.
I love that.
I feel like I'm getting a.
I myself am getting an ongoingclass in musicology, just being
around them.
Dave Alvin (40:44):
Well, thank you Jimmie.
Well, it's vice versa.
Jimmie Dale is a constantinspiration.
It's hard to get tired and downbecause of the immediacy Jimmie
lives in in the moment, andthat's a beautiful thing,
especially on stage, you know,because one you never know
(41:05):
what's gonna happen.
And and that's the same is truewith me when you play with me,
I'll curveball.
Yeah, I don't mean to be, I'mnot trying to be cruel, I'm just
having fun.
And with Jimmie Dale you, he'llthrow you curveballs, but they
keep you on your toes and theykeep everything interesting, you
know.
Joey Lusterman (41:25):
Can you just tell me a little bit about each
of the guitars that you havetoday?
Dave Alvin (41:28):
I have a Martin DC.
It's called a Martin DC Ara andit's an amazing guitar.
It's from about 2004, 2005,when I got it, maybe earlier,
and they don't make them anymorefor some reason.
It might have to do withsomething, but yeah, it's a
(41:49):
great recording guitar, it's agreat live guitar, it's just a
great.
You know I've got some old 50sMartins D18s and Triple 18s, but
this is the workhorse.
Martins start making theseagain.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (42:07):
Well, this one, it's a guild, it's called
the Bluegrass Special and it's aD50.
There's a funny story behind it.
My old friend James Pennebaker,who's one of the best musicians
I've known at all.
He was a session guy and thentouring with a bunch of
(42:32):
Nashville majors.
He was part of the old FortWorth gang, a bunch of really
great musicians, and StevenBruton had produced my first
Nonesuch album and JamesPennebaker played guitar, fiddle
(42:53):
and steel guitar and slide allover that record.
He's just amazing.
But he had gotten into asituation where he had some
problem with his neck and hecouldn't play on stage anymore.
I don't remember exactly how itall went down, but he had to go
(43:15):
off of the road and so he gothired by Guild, which had, I
believe at the time they justhad been bought by Fender.
I'm pretty sure that's right,but this is so he.
And then Lloyd Mains, my oldfriend Lloyd Mains, who's a
(43:36):
producer, musician, amazingperson.
He's the father of NatalieMaines of the Chicks and he
produces their records andproduced some of my records and
a lot of the Flatlanders.
Anyway, lloyd called me up andhe said hey, jimmy, james called
me and's he's got some guitars.
(43:58):
He wants, uh, he wants us totry out.
You know it's like so he hadgone to work as the artist
representative for guild so hesent us these guitars and I in
my cynical mind kind of went ohgolly, that's wonderful, that's
this, that's probably just acheap throwaway guitar.
And it kind of sat oh golly,that's wonderful, that's
(44:18):
probably just a cheap throwawayguitar.
And it kind of sat in the casefor a long time.
But every time I picked it upI'd kind of like you know, this
is kind of a good guitar.
And then finally I checked intoit and found out, oh, this is a
very expensive top-of-the-lineguitar.
This isn't just a cheapthrowaway for art to appease
(44:43):
artists, or something.
James had really done somethingand now it's turned out.
I grew up with Gibsons, playingGibsons all the time, and
there's something about the waythis feels, the fretting and
everything that fits my hand,kind of like the old gibsons do
it.
I had an old country andwestern it was.
(45:03):
It's been long gone now but uh,but it also has a.
It has a tone that that suitsme really well.
I don't, somehow.
It kind of hits all.
It's got a real full bass andclear treble, and so this has
(45:25):
become the guitar that I preferall the time.
Joey Lusterman (45:29):
Great.
Well, thank you both so muchfor taking the time.
It was a lot of fun talking toyou and hearing music and
everything.
Music is just magic and it's kind of
relentlessly wonderful.
It keeps on being, and playingmusic is a little bit more fun
than talking about it, buttalking about it is really fun.
Joey Lusterman (00:15):
Welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm Joey Lusterman, your hostfor this episode.
I was lucky enough to sit downwith Jimmie Dale Gilmore and
Dave Alvin while they were onthe road touring their new album
'Texicali'.
I've long admired both of theseartists.
Each has a storied career withback catalogs full of musical
treasures, On their own or withthe Flatlanders or the Blasters,
Gilmore and Alvin have helpedshape the sounds of what we now
(00:36):
call alternative country, butthey explore many iterations of
roots music Honky Tonk, folk,punk, Americana, you name it.
Our conversation iswide-ranging too.
Listen closely and an overalltheme emerges: the joy of
playing music with a friend.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (01:04):
To that point.
Let's start the episode withAlvin and Gilmore performing
their new song "we're Still here.
If you've never had trouble,never been alive.
I've had my share.
I survived.
Listen, the way up ahead maynot be clear, but I ain't
(01:33):
worried, cause we're still here.
I had a wild time in Houston atthe Allen Parlor Inn Long,
sleepless night Of temptationand sin.
But when they tore that jointdown, you know I shed a tear.
(01:54):
Now the Allen Park's gone, but,jimmy Dale, we're still here.
Yeah, we're still here.
Yeah, we're still here.
We're still here.
We're still standing.
No matter what, you are here,we're still here.
(02:19):
We're still here.
We just keep on rolling.
We're still here.
We just keep on rollin'.
Well, we do, cause we're stillhere.
Yeah, for one more, if you'venever gone crazy, you've never
(02:45):
been in love.
Uncomplicated romance is unheardof.
Love's a tangled tale of hopeand fear, but I'm willing to try
, cause we're still here.
(03:06):
Well, the music was a spin, butthe music was a smile, said.
The songs I write Sound realold and way out of style, but
I've been bopping these bluesfor over 40 years.
I don't know where he is now,but I've been boppin' this
little broker for a year.
I don't know where he is now,but give me that.
(03:31):
We're still here.
Yeah, we're still here.
We're still here.
We can keep on landin', nomatter what you might hear,
we're still here, we're stillhere.
(03:51):
We just keep on rolling, causewe're still here.
(04:12):
Well, new York City, land ofcash and concrete.
We went the wrong way down aone-way street, so true, so true
.
We made it to that.
So it's perfectly clear.
If you could make it too,ladies and gentlemen, we're
(04:35):
still here.
Yeah, we're still here.
We're still here, we're stillhere, we're still here, we're
still standing.
No matter what you might hear,we're still here, we're still
(05:12):
here.
Dave Alvin (05:13):
We just keep on rolling, cause we're still here.
Well, we'd known each other fora couple of decades but we'd
never really sat down and playedmusic together, especially just
the two of us.
It was usually sing-alongthings at the end of a night,
(05:38):
and then a guy by the name ofMike Leahy thought that pairing
us together would be fun for acouple of gigs.
So we started in Denton, texas,and it was about midway through
that show I started thinking weshould maybe make a record
together Because we found inthese shows that we were doing
where it was just Jimmy Dale andme with acoustic guitars that
(06:00):
we found all this stuff outabout each other that we didn't
know.
One was a real important onefor me.
There used to be this club in LAfrom the 50s to the early 70s
called the Ash Grove, and that'swhere you could see everybody
from Lennon Hopkins to ReverendGary Davis, mance Lipscomb,
(06:21):
ralph Stanley, bill Monroe,clarence White, johnny Shines.
You know all sorts of greatblues, bluegrass, folk
performers.
And I never knew Jimmy Dalewhen he was a young man and
journeyed out to California.
He was hanging out at the AshGrove and my brother Phil and I
(06:41):
my older brother Phil and I whenwe were little little kids, we
started sneaking into theAshgrove and so we had this
Ashgrove connection and we weyou know, jimmy got to be pals
with the lightening and and SunHouse and Brownie McGee and
stuff, and my brother and I gotto be friends with lightening
and Big Joe Turner and T-boneWalker and and and I got to be
(07:05):
friends with Lightning and BigJoe Turner and T-Bone Walker and
Eddie Cleanhead, benson andSonny Terry and Brownie McGee.
My brother took harmonicalessons from Sonny Terry, you
know, and it was all because ofthe Ash Grove.
So we had this connection and Iwas just like wow.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (07:18):
And I was a kid, but I already had a wife
and a kid at that time.
And we hung out, the three of us, joe, carroll and Elise and I
went to the Ash Club, all wecould.
There was like one kind of halfa year that we were in LA.
So Dave and Phil are youngerthan me, but we eventually found
(07:43):
out when we were doing thistour together that we both had
been there at the same time.
That all well, all three of us.
I don't know, we drew me atthat point we didn't know each
other, of course but the thingis because both of us, I think,
have been pretty stronglystereotyped.
You know, we've been, each of ushas been categorized in a genre
(08:07):
or a pigeonhole, and I kind ofthink that even maybe both of us
did that.
Like Dave said, we were friends, we had met each other and Dave
even wrote some stuff about meback in the days when I was
being really promoted by ElektraRecords and all that.
(08:27):
Well, high Tone originally, andthen None Such and then Elektra
.
But Dave and I we got to befriends, but I think we kind of
we perceived each other's musicas being way not the same, you
know.
And then so when this littleexperiment came up, I thought
(08:53):
and I think maybe Dave thought Ieven was, it did.
I was telling people that I wasabout to retire, I was telling
I was gonna quit.
But Mike said what do you wantto do this thing?
That's a sure that sounds fun.
That's not the trouble of havinga band and all that.
So we went out and justimmediately it was so much fun.
(09:14):
I thought, though, I'm going todo a song and Dave will do a
song, and I'll do a song andwe'll tell stories.
But right away it started beingthat the old songs that I had
done solo, before I ever was aband person, was stuff like that
I learned at the Ash Grove orthat I learned in that period,
(09:36):
you know, from records and uh,and it was like Dave knew all
these songs.
It was like we had a repertoirealmost built in and somehow it
worked out that the different.
It seems to turn out that thekind of people that liked Dave's
(09:59):
music but never heard of mesort of liked the combination,
and then vice versa the samething.
You know people that myfollowing that weren't into the
blasters or the punk thing andall that, but when they heard
Dave play and sing it was likewith me it just fit.
Joey Lusterman (10:21):
Yeah, it's funny you bring up genres because you
have, you know, you are from alittle different places with,
like, country alt, country cowpunk and that kind of thing, but
it all is coming from similarroots and americana music.
And like when you got togetherand did a version of stealing,
the two of you, when you wereputting those two records
(10:43):
together and going back to one,traditional songs like stealing,
but also you went back throughyour own catalogs and so what
was it like learning eachother's songs?
Dave Alvin (10:53):
oh, fun, the whole thing's fun, you know, I mean
going back and playing songslike stealing or broke down in
your blues, or betty and Dupreeor KC Moan, the old Memphis Jug
Band number that's just goinghome.
And I always thought that JimmyDale he did some blues on all
(11:17):
of his records but I alwaysthought that he was an
underrated blues singer and hereally is one of the best.
And so on both albums theDowney to Lubbock album and then
the new one, texacali I'm kindof like maybe you should do a
little more blues there, jimmyDale, you know you're a pretty
good blues singer.
Let's do some blues, you know.
(11:39):
But you know that's also.
Genres to me are just, you know,they're a marketing tool,
that's all you know.
(12:02):
Like when musicians gettogether, you know they don't
really, I guess Texas Playboys,miles Davis, jimmy Hendrix and I
don't know, big Spider Beck andyou put them all in a room
together, the first thingthey're going to do is, okay,
(12:22):
let's play a blues, you know,let's get to know each other and
play the blues.
So genres are just things that,like I said, they're more for
marketing than they are for themusicians.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (12:36):
I think all the best musicians I've ever
known did not have boundaries,like the categories, like that.
They just like music.
So some of it is there's anartificial distinction that's
(13:00):
made just purely for totally,totally, I think, misguided
business purposes.
I think it's been, in a way,both a problem and a goad.
It's a double-edged sword, youknow, because it does produce
(13:24):
For one thing, people love it, Ithink, when they discover that
they actually like somethingthat they didn't think they
would like.
Dave Alvin (13:38):
Both of our careers.
One of the things that's thesimilarity as opposed to the
differences is, both Jimmy Daleand I like to play with genres.
We like to say, okay, well,let's bend this out of shape.
And you know, like on the newalbum there's an old country
song called why I'm Walking,originally done by Stonewall
(14:00):
Jackson.
You know, and you know the wayhe did.
It was pretty.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (14:06):
I got an angel in my mind that's why.
I'm walking.
Dave Alvin (14:14):
And I just thought, well, why don't we do it like
Stonewall Jackson, you know,because Jimmy can sing the hell
out of it.
But you know, we don't reallyneed another country version of
it.
And I just thought, well, let'smake it a New Orleans R&B
number and pretend that, youknow we're down at Cosmo
Matassa's studio in New Orleanswith Dave Bartholomew and Earl
(14:37):
Palmer and Lee Allen and thewhole Fats Domino band, you know
, and give it that kind ofgroove.
So it became you know, you know, and just playing with genres,
so that you know it could passas a blues song, it could pass
as a country song, it could passas a rock song, and what's the
(14:57):
process like for reimagining asong like that?
Joey Lusterman (15:00):
I mean, you're moving up the neck, but you're
thinking a different rhythm too.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (15:04):
In this case I really couldn't envision
it.
When they brought up the idea,I thought I love that song, I
love Stonewall Jackson and it'sso country.
His version of it is just likedistilled country music from
like the stuff that my fatherliked the most.
(15:27):
He played guitar too and wasyou know my very early years
were I was completely steeped inHank Williams and like that,
and then up into StonewallJackson was later, but he was
one of my favorites and so Ithought I can't do that.
Dave Alvin (15:48):
I can't.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (15:49):
Stonewall Jackson has already done this
perfectly.
I can't do that.
And Dave was.
He was hearing he was having avision of this other way of
doing it and then, almostimmediately, as soon as the, we
got the groove going and then Istarted singing it.
And I'm singing.
I'm trying to stay to the samemelody that Stonewall Jackson
(16:14):
did, but it fit it just fit andit's fun, really fun and really.
And so some in different cases.
In that case I think I was soentrenched in a way of thinking
about the song that I couldn'timagine whatever dave was
imagining.
I think in in some other ways II have that too.
(16:35):
I can jump world pretty easy,you know.
But that was a.
And also Dave wanted me to do aBlind Willie McTale song and I
had somewhat missed that.
The Piedmont, he called it thePiedmont Blues thing.
(16:58):
I sort of.
I had heard maybe a couple ofcuts or something, but I was
really enmeshed in the time,well, in the Ashgrove time and
all that Sunhouse, and of courseLightning.
Lightning is uncategorizable,he's not any of those, he's just
(17:20):
lightning.
But Sunhouse and Robert Johnson.
Joey Lusterman (17:27):
Elmore.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (17:27):
James, the city version of the Delta Blues,
that's more where I had beenentrenched, and so I had a hard
time learning to sing the BlindWillie McTale thing because I
kept doing it kind of the wayOmar James would have done it,
(17:50):
and but once again it turned outthat I wouldn't have thought of
that to begin with, but itturned out to be just great
learning experience.
Joey Lusterman (18:00):
Did you push Dave into any new territory
during these projects?
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (18:04):
I guess only in the sense of, because
some of my stuff is sort of somelodic and kind of like, I
don't know, ethereal orsomething, and Dave is great at
that, but it's not his normal uhterritory I think that's a good
(18:27):
way to say it.
Joey Lusterman (18:28):
Meat and potatoes, old meat and potatoes,
dave I really like the versionof uh, I'm forgetting the name
now, but the deportee yeah ohyeah, woody gutter woody guthrie
song, although I first learnedit from a John Baez record.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (18:45):
John Baez was a huge influence on me and
she partially led me, eventhough I was at the age when I
started learning how to playguitar and everything was just
at the time of the folkexplosion.
And that's what I was in lovewith songs, you know, with
(19:07):
stories and melodies and stuff,and I kind of regretfully now I
never did focus on learning toplay the guitar like I think I
could have if I had looked at itthat way, but I was real
focused on the lyrics, you know,and and the emotion of of the
(19:31):
stories and everything, and butthe the Joan Baez opened up.
You know, I, I think you know alot of the young people now
don't really know what a pioneershe was, how you know, she did
things like she had FredHellerman play.
(19:54):
Well, fred Hellerman was fromthe Weavers and was blacklisted
all that time and John Baez lethim back in.
She was, it had been longenough and she was popular
enough to let that happen.
But she introduced a lot ofpeople to Woody Guthrie and, of
(20:15):
course, to Bob Dylan, and it'sinteresting how the things
intertwine.
And it's interesting how thethings intertwine.
You know, I was steeped incountry music but I became way
more influenced really by whatwe'd call roots I guess,
(20:38):
especially blues roots, I guessespecially blues when I
discovered that the blues wasthe bedrock of most of the music
I liked most, including HankWilliams.
Well, once again, lots ofmusicians are more interested in
where their music came from andin the history in musicology
(21:02):
than a lot of just the listeningpublic.
People just like something ordon't, they don't too much care
about it, but a lot of musiciansare like, wow, that sounds like
I can hear what you know this,this, I can hear what you know.
Merle Haggard sang just likeLefty Frisell.
Dave Alvin (21:27):
Well, and Lefty Frisell was somebody that I
loved from childhood, and nowhe's basically unknown, but Well
, musicians are always lookingfor you know, if you play a good
song and you play it well orwhatever, it's magic right.
And so musicians are like.
Joey Lusterman (21:47):
How'd you do that?
Dave Alvin (21:48):
Part of that is okay , I'm playing this, this, the
guy's playing this, this, thisand this.
Okay, I gotta learn that.
But then you go.
Well, who wrote the song?
And then, oh, I never heard it.
I got to check out that guy.
That's another secret of themagic trick.
But with Deporte we'd beendoing it in this format of just
(22:10):
me and Jimmy Dale Acoustic onthat tour.
But when we went in the studioto record it the night before, I
sat up and watched and listenedto 143, no, I'm not kidding
versions of Deporte and I wasjust making mental notes of okay
(22:30):
, don't do this, don't do this,don't do that don't do that and
so we went in, you know, becauseit's such a great song and it
just has to be those kind ofsongs have to be handled with
kid gloves but at the same timeyou kind of got to push it a
little to make it your own, andI knew Jimmy was singing the
hell out of it, and so insteadof having mandolins and
(22:53):
accordions and sort of thethings that are on every version
, it was like, okay, let's makeit very ethereal and ambient and
kind of spooky, Like you'reactually kind of there in Los
Gatos Canyon at the night of theplane wreck.
So you just kind of picturethat stuff in your brain and try
(23:14):
to do it differently.
Joey Lusterman (23:16):
It took me back to your record Braver Newer
World, which I feel like hadsimilar kind of like
otherworldly sounds and slideguitars that are really
evocative and everything likethat Jimmy Dale's an
otherworldly guy.
Did you two write together atall for this project?
Dave Alvin (23:33):
We wrote the title track Downy to Lubbock together
and we wrote the we're stillhere together what was that
process?
well, we write differently.
We're different kind of writersand you can tell you know like,
and we're still here.
You can tell Jimmy's versesfrom mine pretty easily.
But what we did on both songswere with some songwriters, you
(23:56):
know, when you co co-writeyou're there for hours oh,
what's another word fortangerine?
But with Jimmy Dale and I itwas actually kind of more in the
old folk tradition of we werejust throwing out lines.
I remember with Downy toLubbock I came up with the first
verse and the chorus, a littleidea and then Jimmy Dale, when
(24:18):
we were just in the studio, juststarted throwing stuff out.
That was like wow, that's great.
No, keep that.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (24:25):
I was learning the song and I had no
idea I wasn't thinking of thisas going to be what we'll keep.
I was just kind of learning thefeeling and everything.
I was just kind of learning thefeeling and everything and then
it was kind of like, okay, nowI'll go, I'll go back to the
(24:46):
hotel and I'll write some versesto it.
That'll be real good here andDave goes no, we're keeping that
.
It was weird.
Dave Alvin (24:54):
Yeah, cause sometimes you know you get in
the studio and you don't let'ssay, you don't know the song
that well, and you're kind ofditzing around.
How does this go?
How does this?
Joey Lusterman (25:04):
go.
Dave Alvin (25:04):
And you play your best stuff and then you know, 14
hours later you might get backto where you were at the
beginning.
But you know, sometimes it'sgood just to grab stuff right.
As it happens, it's the, youknow.
Sam Phillips, the producer andowner of Sun Records, is one of
my heroes, so it's kind of morethe Sam Phillips thing.
(25:24):
Grab it, you know, Get thatmoment, Capture the moment, you
know.
Joey Lusterman (25:27):
You had mentioned that playing shows
together was a lot of fun, andI'm wondering if you have any
specific memories, either fromthis more recent tour or going
way back when you were justfriends, about times you spent
together.
Dave Alvin (25:41):
My favorite memory was playing the first time we
played the Troubadour down inWest LA you know, storied,
legendary club right.
And Jimmy Dale has been in alot of bands.
He's been in a lot of countryrock bands, a lot of country
bands, a lot of folk musicensembles, a lot of bluegrass
bands, a lot of this, a lot ofthat.
But he'd never been in a rockand roll band and that hadn't
(26:06):
registered on me.
Really, you know, because theFlatlanders can rock pretty hard
.
But my band's a rock and rollband, you know, and we were
doing Downy to Lubbock at theend of the set and Jimmy was
doing his harmonica solo andwe're really hard in the groove,
right, everybody's in thepocket.
(26:27):
And I looked down at JimmyDale's feet and his feet were
dancing and I was like he nowknows he's in a rock and roll
band and I think he likes it andthat was my favorite one.
That was when I said, oh, thisis all worthwhile.
Look at, this is good.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (26:43):
That reminds me of the strange fact
that when Dave and I were justdoing the duet thing, one thing
was it caused me I had playedharmonica long, long, long ago,
back in the time when I playedjust solo all the time and and
then I hadn't for many, manyyears, because I always.
(27:05):
When I started doing bands andstuff, I figured out okay, the
secret to this is is havingpeople that are better than me
and everything you know, andI'll do the singing and I'll
strum a little guitar, but I getreal people to play the lead
and play the.
You know the rhythm section andeverything.
(27:28):
So I stopped.
I didn't play the harmonicaanymore, for golly.
I mean 25 years or something.
You know a long, long, longtime.
And so one night I pulled itout I don't remember what for.
I remember him looking at megoing you play the harmonica.
(27:49):
Because we kind of needed it.
We needed something else, youknow, something that we can
handle it with just two guitarsand two voices, but it helped.
And so Dave started making meplay the harmonica.
All the time I didn't think ofmyself as a harmonica player and
(28:10):
then now, because of it, I'verediscovered that I can do that
and that I like doing that.
Dave Alvin (28:16):
Yeah, it's one of the lessons of punk rock
discovered that I can do thatand that I like doing that.
Yeah, it's one of the lessonsof punk rock.
You don't have to be LittleWalter or Sonny Bo Williamson or
Snooki Pryor or Sonny Terry,just make some noise.
And the joyous quality of that,because when Jimmy plays
(28:38):
harmonica I think it's aconstant source of discovery.
That's happening right there.
It's not like a guy that's gotall the little Walter Licks
memorized and can do it.
It's just wow, this is fun.
You're a kid again in a garageplaying music with your pals.
Joey Lusterman (28:57):
Going back to the song, you mentioned that you
were always driven by the songand not as much as by the guitar
parts.
I'm wondering do you remembersome of the first songs you
wrote and kind of what was inyour head that you said I need
to write a song?
Well, I was first inspired.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (29:16):
I kind of think that somehow all my life I
was interested in a lot ofother stuff.
When I was younger and I was areader, I read books all the
time and I was real.
I ended up actually the littlebit of college I did.
I studied philosophy, I studiedlinguistic analysis, and
(29:39):
symbolic logic was the mainthing.
Those are the only things thatI didn't flunk out of.
I made A's and O's in the coupleof years I did in college.
But I think I always had justkind of assumed that I was going
to be a songwriter, a singer, asongwriter.
But when I was younger be asongwriter, a singer, a
(30:02):
songwriter but when I wasyounger, I think I'm pretty
certain that I had this imprintin my head that I'll be a
songwriter someday.
But you have to be old andexperienced.
and la la la, and I went to a atour high school there was a
Halloween carnival one time andoff in this one dark room there
(30:22):
was this guy over in the corner.
He was a.
He was somebody that was acouple years older than me.
I kind of knew who he was.
I didn't really know him and wesaw they're playing the piano
and singing.
It was Terry Allen and he Terrywas Alan and he Terry was.
(30:46):
He was doing his own songs andthey were just great and they
were not like anything on theradio or anything I was familiar
with and but from that so I wasin high.
That means that I was early inhigh school, you know, because
he was a couple years older andwe were still in school together
and that started me writing myown songs instead of just
(31:10):
learning everybody else's songs.
And that was the and in a waythat was kind of it was sort of
once I got over that hurdle ofthinking that I wasn't supposed
to be doing it because I was tooyoung or something.
It sort of came automatic to me, although not in the sense I've
(31:36):
never been prolific, althoughnot in the sense I've never been
prolific.
It's just it's only if.
If an idea hits me and then ifit stays with me for a while in
it, then I'm not real good atlike taking an idea and then
just sitting down and making ithappen.
You know that doesn't work verywell for me, but it.
(31:58):
But if something kind of comesand then and something in some
cases it's like where I've hadan idea not, and I've gone this
is good, I'm gonna work on this.
But then finally, when adeadline comes around, that's
when I go, okay, I will sit downand finish this thing.
But it's uh, and I don't know ifthat answers your question at
(32:19):
all, but that's kind of how Igot, how it started out.
For me, terry Allen was a realimportant part of my musical
life.
Joey Lusterman (32:31):
We actually became really good friends after
that.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (32:34):
So it you know.
But then I didn't know him atthat at the time that he
inspired me so much.
Dave Alvin (32:41):
For me, the greatest songwriting lesson I ever got
was from the blues singer, bigJoe Turner, and my brother, phil
, and I and our friends used tofollow him around from gig to
gig when I was like 13, 14 yearsold, and so one day, walking
home from school, I wrote thissong for him in my head and I
had everything in my head.
And I had everything in my head.
I had the horn section, thehorn parts, I had the lyrics, I
(33:04):
had the melody, I had the drumbeat.
I had the groove, and walkinghome is about a mile and a half
from school, and so I'm walking.
By the time I got home I hadthat song.
So the next time I saw Big JoeTurner, a few days later, I said
to him Big Joe, I wrote a songfor you.
And Big Joe said well, how's itgo?
(33:26):
And I just stood there going ah, ah, ah.
And I couldn't rememberanything.
And finally Big Joe Turnerlooks at me and he goes well, if
you can't remember it, it ain'tno good to begin with.
And that was my firstsongwriting lesson and that's
stuck for ever since.
Joey Lusterman (33:45):
Earlier, we were talking about Happy Tram, who
recently passed away and both ofyou had connections to him.
Is that right?
Dave Alvin (33:54):
I didn't really have a connection to him outside of
that was the first music bookthat I bought with chords, chord
diagrams, and this and theother was his book on how to
play the blues and it was how toplay a lot of Piedmont style,
reverend Gary Davis and BrownieMcGee stuff, and so it just the
(34:18):
name alone just had like oh mygod you know he was a Mount
Rushmore kind of guy and then,around 2018 or 19, jimmy Dale
and I in my band, the GuiltyOnes, we played at Levon Studio
up there in Woodstock and hecame to the gig because, as
(34:39):
Jimmy will tell you, they wereall friends, but I was.
Can I cuss?
Joey Lusterman (34:45):
Yes.
Dave Alvin (34:46):
I was scared shitless Because it was like I'm
a rock and roll bar room bluesbasher as opposed to a
machine-like finger picker, andthere's Happy Trauma and we're
talking and we're introduced andI was like oh god damn, why'd
(35:07):
you have to come to this?
Why'd you have to come to anygig of mine?
You know you're going to leaveunhappy, trust me.
And then afterwards he was alllike, oh, I really love the show
.
And I was like, wow.
But yeah, my first response washappy trauma.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (35:23):
God, I'm dead, you know and I've had the
same thing that his books andhappy and Artie, his brother,
who died several years ago whatthat was, their books and their
instruction tapes and all that.
I had learned a whole lot fromthem.
(35:43):
And then, many years later, Igot to be friends with them and
we did some shows together.
By the time this happened inWoodstock, he was an old friend
of mine, so I wasn't intimidatedby him being there.
And so I wasn't intimidated bybeing there.
I was.
So this is always comical to me, the idea that Dave gets
intimidated by other guitarplayers.
Dave Alvin (36:04):
Oh God, yeah, and I'll play everybody.
No, I can't.
No, I've had my butt kicked somany times by guitar players
that I have no ego when it comesto guitar.
But I will say this I get mypoint across when I'm playing.
Joey Lusterman (36:22):
And that's the best thing you can do.
Did either of you ever teachmusic to anybody?
Songwriting guitar?
Dave Alvin (36:26):
I taught a songwriting class.
Yeah, jimmy does one every year.
I did it once at your most,your McCalkin ins for peace
ranch.
They, they did a specialwhatever session of the Fur
Peace Ranch but they did it outin the middle of the California
desert at this old motel and itwas great and I taught
(36:50):
songwriting for a week and I hadto pat myself on the back.
I was pretty good at it becausethere was a couple guys that
knew how to write songs and Isussed them out right away.
It's like, okay, you've takenother classes, you know, you
know what a bridge is, you knowwhat a chorus is, you know what
a pre-bridge is, you know what apre-chorus is, you know.
(37:11):
But the rest of the guys didn'thave a clue.
But by the end of the week theywere songwriters and I gotta
say I did a good job with them.
Hopefully, if they're listening, love y'all, miss y'all, hope
to see you soon, but yeah and Ialso did one of Yarmouth's
(37:33):
things for a piece, but it was.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (37:39):
It was with Bill Kirchhen and up, but it
but the way I do it.
I I have taught as a class oneone week of the year for 27
years now at the.
Omega Institute in upstate NewYork, so that's part of it, so
it's close to Woodstock and allthat.
There's some crossroads.
(38:00):
But I don't really I don'tteach.
What I do is I curate asituation where the class
teaches itself and I stick in alot of stuff, I stick in a lot
of insights and I've said topeople a lot that that it's
(38:20):
actually about my favorite thingI've done in my music career,
because what it did was from the, from the very beginning of it.
It started making me thinkabout and and kind of figure out
how to articulate things that Iwas doing automatically,
(38:41):
unconsciously, kind of thinkingabout my own process and then
hearing all the different waysthat other people think I
remember early on in maybe thefirst year that I did things,
there came this one point wheresomebody in the class something
got said in one of the and theysaid what.
(39:05):
You write the words before youwrite the melody.
And the other person was likewell, what do you mean of chorus
?
Joey Lusterman (39:13):
You write the melody before you write the.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (39:14):
It's like little things like that.
It's like people are justdifferent, you know, and they
come at things from differentangles, and the fun of
discovering that music is justmagic.
It's magic and it's kind ofrelentlessly wonderful, it keeps
(39:40):
on being, and playing music isa little bit more fun than
talking about it, but talkingabout it is really fun.
And there's one thing I'll tellyou with Dave and the Guilty
Ones, which is Chris Miller andLisa Pankratz and Brad Fordham
(40:03):
they, the three of them, andDave, and particularly Dave it's
like they all have thesememories, these storehouses of
memories, of knowledge of music,of all kinds of music, and I
don't have that anymore.
I have spotty memories aboutthings that really imprinted me
(40:25):
and everything and they rememberthings like who was on the
sessions when this cut was doneand stuff like that, and I love
it.
I love that.
I feel like I'm getting a.
I myself am getting an ongoingclass in musicology, just being
around them.
Dave Alvin (40:44):
Well, thank you Jimmie.
Well, it's vice versa.
Jimmie Dale is a constantinspiration.
It's hard to get tired and downbecause of the immediacy Jimmie
lives in in the moment, andthat's a beautiful thing,
especially on stage, you know,because one you never know
(41:05):
what's gonna happen.
And and that's the same is truewith me when you play with me,
I'll curveball.
Yeah, I don't mean to be, I'mnot trying to be cruel, I'm just
having fun.
And with Jimmie Dale you, he'llthrow you curveballs, but they
keep you on your toes and theykeep everything interesting, you
know.
Joey Lusterman (41:25):
Can you just tell me a little bit about each
of the guitars that you havetoday?
Dave Alvin (41:28):
I have a Martin DC.
It's called a Martin DC Ara andit's an amazing guitar.
It's from about 2004, 2005,when I got it, maybe earlier,
and they don't make them anymorefor some reason.
It might have to do withsomething, but yeah, it's a
(41:49):
great recording guitar, it's agreat live guitar, it's just a
great.
You know I've got some old 50sMartins D18s and Triple 18s, but
this is the workhorse.
Martins start making theseagain.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore (42:07):
Well, this one, it's a guild, it's called
the Bluegrass Special and it's aD50.
There's a funny story behind it.
My old friend James Pennebaker,who's one of the best musicians
I've known at all.
He was a session guy and thentouring with a bunch of
(42:32):
Nashville majors.
He was part of the old FortWorth gang, a bunch of really
great musicians, and StevenBruton had produced my first
Nonesuch album and JamesPennebaker played guitar, fiddle
(42:53):
and steel guitar and slide allover that record.
He's just amazing.
But he had gotten into asituation where he had some
problem with his neck and hecouldn't play on stage anymore.
I don't remember exactly how itall went down, but he had to go
(43:15):
off of the road and so he gothired by Guild, which had, I
believe at the time they justhad been bought by Fender.
I'm pretty sure that's right,but this is so he.
And then Lloyd Mains, my oldfriend Lloyd Mains, who's a
(43:36):
producer, musician, amazingperson.
He's the father of NatalieMaines of the Chicks and he
produces their records andproduced some of my records and
a lot of the Flatlanders.
Anyway, lloyd called me up andhe said hey, jimmy, james called
me and's he's got some guitars.
(43:58):
He wants, uh, he wants us totry out.
You know it's like so he hadgone to work as the artist
representative for guild so hesent us these guitars and I in
my cynical mind kind of went ohgolly, that's wonderful, that's
this, that's probably just acheap throwaway guitar.
And it kind of sat oh golly,that's wonderful, that's
(44:18):
probably just a cheap throwawayguitar.
And it kind of sat in the casefor a long time.
But every time I picked it upI'd kind of like you know, this
is kind of a good guitar.
And then finally I checked intoit and found out, oh, this is a
very expensive top-of-the-lineguitar.
This isn't just a cheapthrowaway for art to appease
(44:43):
artists, or something.
James had really done somethingand now it's turned out.
I grew up with Gibsons, playingGibsons all the time, and
there's something about the waythis feels, the fretting and
everything that fits my hand,kind of like the old gibsons do
it.
I had an old country andwestern it was.
(45:03):
It's been long gone now but uh,but it also has a.
It has a tone that that suitsme really well.
I don't, somehow.
It kind of hits all.
It's got a real full bass andclear treble, and so this has
(45:25):
become the guitar that I preferall the time.
Joey Lusterman (45:29):
Great.
Well, thank you both so muchfor taking the time.
It was a lot of fun talking toyou and hearing music and
everything.
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