May 14, 2025 • 44 mins
The mortgage industry stands at a crossroads where diminishing regulatory oversight meets economic pressure, creating perfect conditions for a dangerous backslide in lending standards. Dan Sugg, Chief Mortgage Lending Officer with Michigan First Credit Union and a 31-year veteran of the industry, sounds a thoughtful alarm about the risks of regulatory cutbacks. Join him and Peter Benjamin, President of ACUMA on this thought provoking discussion surrounding the changes impacting the credit union mortgage industry, and what the future could look like if you don't stay vigilant.
Particularly concerning is the vulnerability of first-time homebuyers being approved at maximum debt-to-income ratios. Sugg shares a striking example: "We had members pre-approved in the morning that were denied in the afternoon based on their rate moving." This illustrates how precariously some borrowers are being qualified, with little buffer against economic changes.
As we navigate these changing times, staying engaged with industry associations, maintaining ethical standards regardless of the regulatory environment, and prioritizing sustainable homeownership over short-term profits will ensure we uphold what Sugg calls "the gold standard of home finance" worldwide. Tune in now to the conversation about protecting the foundation of American homeownership while ensuring fair access for qualified borrowers.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The views and opinions expressed in this
podcast do not necessarilyreflect the views or positions
of ACUMA, its board of directors, its management staff or its
members.
The podcast discussionpresented is conversational in
nature and for generalinformation only.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
Hello and welcome to Actors On Point Podcast, a
series focused on sharing thestories of people who are making
a positive impact in the creditunion mortgage industry.
I'm your host, peter Benjamin.
Today, I am joined by Dan Sugg,chief Mortgage Lending Officer
with Michigan First Mortgage.
Dan, my friend, how are youdoing today?
I'm doing fabulous.
That is good to hear.
(00:52):
Now, dan, you are a legend innot just the credit union space
but the mortgage industry.
Our conversation today issomething that I think not just
credit unions but mortgagelenders as a whole need to hear.
As always, I'm excited for theconversation.
It's one that we've talkedabout at events.
It's one that we talked aboutduring our policy podcast.
(01:15):
I've talked about it severaltimes with our lobbyists.
I know that I'm sandbagging,but I have to pause slightly, as
always got to bring the hawk in.
Justin, what is the latest andgreatest happening over at Acuma
?
And, by the way, how are youdoing today?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I'm good, peter, how are you Living the dream?
See, I'm telling you that'swhat I like to hear.
And so over here at Acuma,we're not busy, it's the middle
of spring.
I mean, we're just kind ofenjoying the flowers and the
trees.
No, I'm kidding, we just gotback from Savannah, which was, I
(01:57):
mean, that was amazing.
That was absolutely stunning.
That city has so much charm.
The speakers, the sessions,they were absolutely fantastic.
The networking was amazing.
There was so much sharing andcollaboration.
I mean, I know you love theworkshops, but for me, like the
roundtable, those are alwaysreally exciting to see and just
(02:19):
getting to see everybody share.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
How about that rock paper scissors?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
contest.
You know, that was new, thatwas different.
Um, if you were not there, youdefinitely missed a uh a hoot.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
If you what did?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I miss that sounds amazing.
So since it's down south, wegotta speak in that that
vernacular it was a hoot yeah, ahoot a hoot, come on.
I am from the South.
I can pull those Southern rootsout somewhere.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Bless your heart, justin Bless, your heart there
we go.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Bless your heart.
I like it Dan's throwing me offhere, all right.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Our next in-person event is, uh, just happening.
In a few weeks, we're going tohave our second focal point
workshop of the year.
It's going to be in seattle.
Uh, what's going on?
On june 3rd and 4th?
There is still plenty of timeto register.
So if you missed the rock paperscissors tournament and if you
missed the amazing sessions,don't miss this one.
It's going to be fantastic.
There might even be anotherrock paper scissors tournament.
(03:25):
It's on the agenda just sayingright, there is um, if you are
able to come, if you're a creditunion or accuso, um, we have a
volume discount, so groups oftwo or more can actually get two
hundred dollars off of eachregistration.
So that's a little bit of ashameless plug to get you, to
help get you there, um.
And then, lastly, our make yourmark annual conference.
(03:45):
That's the last in-person eventof the year.
It's going to round us out.
That's happening september 21stto the 24th in denver.
Super excited, um, if youhaven't seen yet, we have, um, a
lot of big stuff planned.
So check out the agenda.
We have, the first time ever,acting is throwing.
Not only are we going to haveour reception, but we're going
(04:06):
to have an after party as well.
So the after party is going tostart before the entire event,
pretty much.
But you know it's okay, it'snot really an after party, but
it's an after party for Sunday.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
It's a continuation.
We don't.
We need.
We need to think of, like, a, adifferent name for the, the,
the after party, since it's likeday one.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
But yeah, okay, and and it can't be pre-gaming,
right?
I mean, I had no problemcalling it a pre-game party.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Okay, yeah, it's something, something.
If it's, it's like literally onday one, it's not an an after
party.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
No, not really.
The after party is supposed totake after the party, right?
No?
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Something like that.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I think that's the way it goes, but we're going in
reverse order.
We're going to have such anamazing time there, so don't
miss it.
Registration is open.
Head over to the Acuna site formore information.
And again, we have the volumediscount.
So if you're registering agroup of three or more in your
(05:09):
credit union or CUSO, you canget $200 off of each
registration as well.
And then, outside of ourin-person events, if you're
looking for additionalnetworking and educational
opportunities, we have our YoungProfessional Network.
Their quarterly meeting ishappening next week, on May 22nd
, so head over to the websiteand register.
We have the UnderwritingNetwork quarterly meeting
happening on June 10th, sothere's still a little bit of
time there.
And then our webinar series theFast Tracks and Inside Tracks
(05:31):
are happening year round.
Our next one's coming uptomorrow, so you have plenty of
time still to register for that.
And then, lastly, our infamousOn Point podcast.
It helps keep the fun andlearning going all year long
awesome, uh, needless to say, weare quite busy.
Yeah, that's why it was sort ofa joke in the beginning, but you
(05:51):
didn't kind of latch on to theflowers and trees.
I was trying to go hippie, butyou didn't kind of join me sorry
I was.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
I was day jeremy for a second about savannah.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Still, I know that that's okay.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
No, that's all right, I just kind of dozed off.
Anyways, all right, thank youvery much, my pleasure.
All right, dan.
Yes, sir, all right, here we go.
All right.
So, like I said, excited forthis conversation.
But before we dive in, I alwaysask the same question first and
I always end with the samequestion last, and so here we go
(06:23):
.
First question as always, I haveto preface it like I always do
the Acme's On Point podcast.
It's a people piece.
The idea is we want to learnmore about the people who make a
positive impact in our industry.
You are one of those people.
You are highly regarded as athought leader.
You are highly regarded notjust in that credit union space
(06:44):
but the mortgage industry.
I mean, there's a reason whyyou are on.
You know MBA's ResVog.
I mean there's a reason why yousit on, you know panels.
Throughout our events,throughout MBA's events, people
look to you for guidance, to bethat beacon.
But the big question is and thisis why this is always the first
(07:06):
question we ask who is Dan Sugg?
People want to know.
I think that's why we want todive into this as Aquas on Point
podcast is because we want topeel back that layer, because
all too often we listen to thesepodcasts and we always focus on
leadership.
We always focus on, you know,what are your thoughts on the
(07:30):
economy?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
What are your thoughts on themortgage market?
What's your thoughts on this?
Regulatory issues.
But we never actually, you know, focus on who we are as a human
being, right, and so that's whythe Atkinson Point podcast was
established to figure out whatmakes us tick.
And so here we go.
What makes Dan Sugg tick?
(07:51):
Who is Dan Sugg?
First, question out who is DanSugg.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Well, I think it probably.
First of all, thank you forhaving me on the podcast today.
It's it's been quite an honorto be asked and certainly I look
at these opportunities, reallyget to know the audience a
little bit better and certainlylearn a bit more about the
industry.
But if you look back at mycareer, I didn't start in the
mortgage business.
(08:16):
I started in the manufacturingbusiness and it really was a
family-run, kind of convenientthing to do.
After secondary education wasto jump into the family business
and ultimately I would probablystill be there if that didn't
come to an end, really not in myown volition, but through a
sale.
I ended up finding myselflooking for a job and I went to
(08:39):
the last person, terry Conway.
He's still in the business.
I went to him because he hadjust done my mortgage we had
just built a home and I said,man, he drives a nice car and
seems to know what's going onand I think he really ultimately
would be able to give me a goodlook at the mortgage business.
And almost 31 years later, hereI am.
(08:59):
I started as a loan officer herein Michigan, like a lot of
people, got a box of cards and afinger pointed in that
direction, saying, hey, you needto go call on that territory
and find some loans and you know, really, a week's worth of
training and you're out makingit happen.
And I found very early on thatyou know in the 90s if you will
that the bar for education inour industry was pretty low.
(09:22):
And I said, if I'm going tomake this, I need to feel
confident, I need to trainmyself, and that's really kind
of how I got my basis for therest of my career.
Couple that with some veryearly advice from my brother who
was in the business.
He said align yourself with anorganization that shares the
(09:43):
values of what you want toaccomplish.
And it was pretty early that Ijoined Michigan Mortgage Lenders
Association it was calledsomething different back then
and I started to network withpeople like yourself, peter,
like Justin, people in theindustry that had knowledge of
different ways outside of what Iwas currently accustomed to in
(10:05):
my job of doing this business.
And I started to get areputation that I was willing to
do the hard work, that I waswilling to learn the processes
and certainly the procedures andthe guidelines and, before you
know it, like any goodorganization, you're really good
at this.
Let's promote you to a leader.
And I became an assistantmanager, I became a manager, I
(10:29):
became a regional and juststarted working my way up and at
some point I felt like that wasa higher calling for me than
slinging loans every day.
And make no mistake, I tookgreat pride in being a top LO in
this country At one point inprobably the slowest year in our
mortgage business in 2000,.
I did at that time over 400closings personally and that was
(10:54):
a big number back then.
I mean the average loan amountobviously was probably $80,000.
It was the year 2000 and it wasmostly purchased but it was
hustling to get there and I takegreat pride in that.
I made sales trips every yearand I felt like that was the
pinnacle of my success.
But then I realized I can helpother people grow and, given
(11:16):
that I spent 10 years inmanufacturing before I got in
this business, I tended to beolder than most people around me
.
So I started mentoringsalespeople, grew areas and then
I took an opportunity to join abank and I took a job with
LaSalle Bank to be a regionalmanager in Michigan and helped
grow that to well over a billiondollars in origination every
(11:39):
year and, as you can say, therest is kind of history and I
followed very briefly we'll gointo the story here I followed
the pattern of our business.
Banking was really the biggest,largest share of the business
in the early 2000s.
Then you get past the financialmeltdown of 2008, 2009, and
(12:00):
then it started to shift toindependent mortgage banks and I
felt that if I was going tocontinue to grow in my acumen in
the mortgage business, I neededto align myself in that area of
the business.
Banks were kind of pulling backand so I spent about eight
years eight and a half years onthe independent mortgage bank
side, helping grow threedifferent companies across this
(12:21):
nation and opened branches in Ithink at the last count I think
it was 28 states.
I'd been part of going in andbuilding branch networks for
privately held independentmortgage banks across this
country.
And, peter, that's how you andI passed I was actually running,
or became to pass our pathscrossed.
I was running a company inHorsham, pennsylvania, and I
(12:44):
went to the New Jersey LendersAssociation you were looking for
an opportunity, I believe, andwe talked there and got to meet
you with our CME designationsand understand what it is that
you did and built that networkand I have those all across this
nation and I think that's wheremostly you know my reputation
in this industry comes from isthe network that I have been
(13:05):
able to build throughout thecountry.
There isn't really a state thatI don't know somebody in.
I had a call with Alan Fowleryesterday and Alan's in New
Mexico and I know like threepeople now in New Mexico and I
was like I've never even been toNew Mexico and certainly you
spent the entire population ofNew Mexico.
(13:39):
You just met the entirepopulation of New part.
Engaging and advocating andinvolving and engaging with the
association is the part wherethe real value is and that's
what I've really focused outsideof my day job on is building
that network for me and itcertainly has served me very
well.
I sit on a number of advisoryboards today, both with Freddie
(14:04):
Mac and LendersOne and in myinvolvement with MBA, certainly
with the ResBog committee.
I'll be chairman of ResBog, avice chair now at ResBog next
year and sitting on the board ofdirectors for MBA.
It's been eye-opening to me thelevel of certainly connections
(14:24):
that I've been able to build andaccess and help me become a
better, stronger person in thismortgage industry.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Okay, that was perfect.
Perfect, which kind of is anexcellent segue to the topic and
why I'm so excited about it andwhy you are the perfect person
to talk about this topic.
And, like I said, this is atopic that we have talked about
several times at our events andon this podcast, but you know
the policy episodes.
(14:52):
It is the idea of backslidingthat our industry could
potentially do as a result ofthe things that are happening in
DC and, as you and I both know,and as we've discussed and read
in various publications andwatched on the news, the
(15:16):
administration and the thingsthat the lawmakers are currently
doing are radically changingour industry in ways that we
have not seen since Dodd-Frankwas established Right.
But in this case, it's areversal of things that we have
(15:40):
been doing since Dodd-FrankRight, we're basically turning
back the clock, yeah have beendoing since Dodd-Frank.
Right, we're basically turningback the clock and so you know,
the conversation is reallyfocused on you know that, like
you and I said, you know that,backsliding, the changing of
gears and going back in time,2007, 2006, 2005, 2004.
(16:03):
Do we go back to that time of?
You know, heaven forbid.
You know all day.
And subprime lending and no doc.
You know that's 620, 95, no doc.
And all of a sudden, everyone,if you have a breath, you know a
heartbeat and you know, youknow just a name, you can get
(16:25):
alone.
I mean, are we doing this?
But I know you have somethoughts on this and I want to
hear from you and I know ourlisteners want to hear from you
on this.
But you know things that arehappening at HUD, cfpb, the GSEs
.
I mean what I think at thispoint in time.
Here we are, you know, early tomid-May.
(16:48):
You know it was about threeweeks ago.
I mean what the CVB laid off,what 1,200 staff members.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Yeah, last week certainly, and you know.
So first of all, let me prefacethis a little bit.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
This is all Dan.
Yeah, this is all Dan, no oneelse.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
All Dan, I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone but
this old guy sitting in theseat.
And my fear isn't so much Alte,I mean that's.
Certainly we know the mistakesthere, but I equate it to
dismantling the state police inyour respective state.
And while the speed limit signsare still up, we know there's
(17:32):
nobody on the road to enforcethem, or at least we
perceptionally think that, basedon what we're reading and
seeing and that propensity in anentrepreneurial driven business
like mortgage has people startpushing the envelope and
starting to think.
Envelope and starting to thinkwell gosh, maybe we can make
(17:59):
sense of this and convince ourlegal team that we can push the
very limits of those guidelinesthat have kept our mortgage
business safe for the years.
And that's where my fear liesis that in the desperation of
our current economic situationin mortgage, let's face it we're
still toiling to make a buck inthis business.
We have, certainly in thecredit union industry, we've
(18:22):
weathered the storm withoutlaying a lot of people off like
an independent mortgage bank hasdone, and I think that would
have been even more prudent.
But, given our culture on ourside, think that would have been
even more prudent, but givenour culture on our side, we've
kept a lot of the expense.
I can speak for Michigan Firstthere.
So we're fighting every dayjust to continue to be
profitable, and that tends tohave you make different
(18:48):
decisions than you've made inthe past.
Well, if you do that nowwithout the threat of, or
certainly the perception of athreat of well, nobody's kind of
looking, you're willing to say,well, you know, maybe we can do
that, maybe we can go just alittle bit farther on that DTI
or a little higher on that OTV,or maybe we can, maybe we can
(19:08):
put that risk on our books,books.
And if you think about some ofthe organizations that we have
today that are, like I said,entrepreneurial in spirit, that
can get away from you reallyfast.
And I've seen, not a directexample of that, but I have
certainly seen decisions startto be made out of frustration,
(19:29):
out of necessity and, even worse, out of desperation.
And those are the times thatyou start to really I get really
concerned about, boy, as anindustry, are we moving that
pendulum way too far on theother side.
You know, this for me is not apolitical conversation so much
as it is an ethical conversationabout how, you know, we say at
(19:55):
Michigan First, I say atMichigan, first, that housing,
home ownership is a privilege,not a right, and it doesn't mean
that you can't earn the right,that you can't get there, and
it's not just for the privileged, but it is something to behold
because it is a 30-yearcommitment.
Like I always say to our newheirs, it's a marriage.
(20:17):
You are literally getting intoa marriage and making promises
that you have to keep and if youdon't, bad things happen.
And making that ultimately soeasy that anybody can get into
that commitment is not going tohave good results.
And if you think of all therisk factors that have raised, I
(20:38):
mean, I know that I'm enjoyinga much greater value in my home
today than I did even just fouror five years ago, and in some
cases, you know I'll use my sonas an example I have.
My oldest son bought a home in2017 and he thought he was in a
bidding war then and he ended uppaying $190,000 for this ranch
(20:58):
and I thought, god, he paid alot of money for that.
That thing today zills for like380.
And he thinks he's won thelottery and I'm like, holy moly,
it's literally seven years andit's doubled in value in little
old Livonia, michigan.
So if you think about thatpeople getting in at $380,000
today and being max LTV, max DTIand getting $25,000 of free
(21:24):
money and really pushing theenvelope right to the edge, it
spells disaster if we lose valueagain.
And that's what keeps me up alot at night, not so much for
our organization, obviously,because we're a little bit more
conservative, but fororganizations that are hanging
on trying to pay the light billevery day.
It's not going to take much fora couple of those to just cash
(21:47):
out a few of these organizationsand there's a lot of that, I
think, perceptually changingtoday.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
And there's a lot of that.
I think perceptually changingtoday was that saying yes to a
potentially risky borrower hasthe potential to jeopardize the
entire credit union.
And we have a fiduciaryresponsibility to protect the
(22:28):
entire financial institution.
And just because, yes, the loanofficer is going to push for
every single loan, they're theadvocate for the member and
every single loan.
But they also have a fiduciaryresponsibility for the credit
union.
And I agree with you that thereis a concern that, with all the
(22:53):
changes that are happening, thatyou know, with all the changes
that are happening, you know HUD, fhfa, you know the things that
they're pushing down on theGSEs, the CFPB and CUA I mean,
you name it, we can go down thislist.
You know, at some point in timewe have to be concerned that we
(23:19):
have to maintain that.
We have to be concerned thatthe people who are regulating us
are not going to besufficiently staffed to monitor
us and you're going to have somebad actors that are just going
to take advantage of that andjust do whatever they want.
And I'm not saying creditunions, but if you look at the
(23:42):
full spectrum of our industrybanks, credit unions, imbs,
brokers someone's going to takeadvantage of it hands down.
It's just natural.
Someone's going to find a of ithands down.
It's just natural.
Someone's going to find aloophole and exploit it.
Just people are naturally goingto try to find the shortest
(24:06):
line to that finish line.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yeah, this commodity has been monetized, certainly,
and there's certainly a freemarket, capital society, a
balance, if you will, that Ithink this industry enjoys, and
when that does get out ofbalance it is troublesome.
You reminded me a little bitkind of, about the different
analogies that we use in thisbusiness and if you think about
(24:34):
what decision we're making whenwe put somebody in a home.
We had a recent.
Obviously in the last two weekswe've had very large swings
both in the stock market and inthe bond market and I happened
to be at a conference I wasactually at MBA attending a peer
group review when we werehaving those huge swings in the
stock market.
(24:55):
The administration wasannouncing tariffs and then not
tariffs and then back, and therewas a lot going on and I think
on that Friday we called it the45-minute refi boom, where the
bond market just dove, rateswent down with it and then there
was about a 325 basis pointswing in the 30-year Fannie Mae
(25:15):
coupon and we had memberspre-approved in the morning that
were denied in the afternoonbased on their rate moving
enough index and that tells methat we are primarily approving
first-time homebuyers at the maxDTI.
And if you think about thecommitment to homeownership and
(25:38):
the idea that you know thatpeople get into homes that they
can afford and be successfulhomeowners, when it can be
jeopardized inner day based onthe dealings of our current
administration or currentCongress or, you know, insert
any economic event that puts usat jeopardy as an industry.
It puts our homeowners atjeopardy of being successful and
(26:01):
ultimately we could go into theGSE reform but ultimately,
without that federal commitmentor that backstop on our industry
, we wouldn't have a 30-yearfixed rate mortgage.
We would be dealing in arms andballoons today if it was all
privatized.
And I think that's important toremember that the Fed plays a
(26:23):
pretty good role in our industryat giving the space for us to
be entrepreneurial and advocate.
But you can't have it both ways.
You can't have a set of rulesbut nobody to enforce them.
Have it both ways you can'thave a set of rules but nobody
to enforce them, because, leftto our own device, we will, as
an industry, we will push theenvelope.
That's how we're built and thatis, you know, like I said, that
(26:44):
is concerning for me andcertainly, I think, for others
in the industry.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Right.
I think we have to remindourselves that we are fortunate
to have that 30-year fix.
Other countries do not.
They do not.
Yeah, and you know that is aprivilege, that that we have and
at any point in time I hate tosay it could it could very well
be taken, taken away from usyeah, and I you know, obviously
(27:11):
being at nac peter, I think youwere there and advocating on the
Hill, and I know that Acumadoes that work too.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
That was one of our talking points.
We are the gold standard ofhome finance.
We have the strongest,certainly, real estate finance
community industry and system inthe world and that would be in
jeopardy if that changed.
For sure and I think you knowyou touched on a little bit
(27:39):
there are a lot of good thingshappening.
Well, certainly economicallygood things happening.
The federal government is not arevenue machine.
It is a 100% expense and it'salways good to review and make
sure that there is no waste orfraud.
I don't know that anybody wouldargue that point, but I get a
(28:03):
little bit concerned thatthey're so fixated on cut the
number to the bone that we'll gopast some of the backstops and
some of the support that weactually use in the industry.
And I find it very ironic thatI'm sitting here advocating for
a CFPB that is adequatelystaffed when you know, 10 years
(28:26):
ago we couldn't even say thatname without changing the letter
F to something else.
I promise, I wouldn't say that.
But, yeah, so it is ironic, butwhat we've learned is that,
yeah, those guidelines can beuseful when the balance is
(28:46):
correct working with industry,working with organizations like
Acuma, mba, to form the policythat works for everyone.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Right, I mean.
But here's the thing there hasto be and you said it and you
hinted at it there has to bethat balance, right?
You can't strip something downto bare bones, whether it's a
GSE or another form of regulator.
It can't be stripped down tobare bones.
Because here's what's going tohappen Politicians come and go,
(29:16):
midterm elections come and goand the administration is going
to change and it has a potentialto change parties at any point
in time.
What happens when it goes fromRepublican to Democrat and the
next administration is aDemocrat and that Democrat
administration wants to rampback up?
(29:38):
I'll use the CFPB as an example.
They're gonna come back andforce and anyone who did that
backsliding and took advantageof these loopholes and the fact
that the CFPB didn't have theresources to enforce every
(30:03):
single regulation that was outthere, you better believe
they're going to start targetingyou.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
You better believe it , you better believe they're
going to start targeting you.
You better believe it.
We've already seen it.
We've.
You know, as much as we'd liketo think, that the CFPB has not
been politicized one way or theother, it certainly has.
You know, I don't know that anycommon sense.
You have to be careful here.
Any person with using commonsense would go in and thinking
(30:29):
that the divisiveness of one wayor the other is good for anyone
.
It's only good for a smallpercentage of people and
ultimately there's a lot of goodpeople that worked at CFPB.
I mean, certainly did they havewaste?
I'm sure of it, everyorganization does.
Did they have overreach?
Of course, we've talked aboutthat ad nauseum, but ultimately
(30:53):
it is there to serve a purposeand certainly make us stronger
and more compliant and certainlymore based in sound decision as
a group.
Certainly and this is from anorganization that I've been at
for the last nine years thathasn't been in the direct
purview of CFPB.
But guess what?
The NCUA takes their cues fromCFPB.
(31:14):
They take that guidance andcertainly in our you know.
Another risk, really, withoutyou know the breadth at CFPB
that we need is and we've talkedabout this in a couple
different venues, venues is thestates seeing certainly their
responsibility to step up, getour industry in line and, if you
(31:39):
have, if you think you don'tlike the CFPB, if you're an IMB
or a credit union that operatesin several states, have 30 or 40
different sets of rules and,before you know it, you can't
even lend in certain states,like you're like all right, I'm
going to pull out of all thesestates.
I'm going to do this because Ican't even I can't abide.
It's too costly to abide bythose rules.
(32:00):
And that's really where, insome regards, the CFPB has made
it a level playing field andgiven the states the ability to
kind of pull back on theirregulatory enforcement and point
to the CFPB in some of thoseareas.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Yeah, I mean, trust me, I hate it.
You know, working at IMB andthen having almost like a
revolving door of states comingin.
It was just back-to-back weeksor when multiple states were in
there at a time.
That was the worst, the worst.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Yeah, you had to set aside a conference room just for
the auditors, like there wasalways somebody in there.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Yeah, always 100%.
It was just a revolving doorand giving them a laptop just
for them to use it was horrible.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Anyways, I'm honestly amazed right now, because when
you were just talking about arevolving door state, I was like
man, that's a really weird wayof referring to a state.
I didn't realize you werereferring to people.
So a little moment for me.
Yeah there you go, Justin.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
Talking about auditors, auditors from states.
Yes, yes, there you go, justin.
Welcome to the conversation.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
I mean, you know, I've been here the whole time
and I'm trying to follow along,but I didn't know we were
talking about people in thatmoment.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Can you not see my cue cards?
Speaker 4 (33:17):
No, I'm joking and just, we're talking about people
, Thank you.
But anyways, you know these areand I do want to go back to
something you said and I do wantto go back to something you
said there were yes, there areand there were good people at
the CVP and GSEs and throughoutthe entire government that were
(33:38):
laid off, but there also werebad actors and there are bad
actors in the mortgage businessthat remain.
I mean, you can look at therecent fraud that happened at.
Was it Fannie or Freddie?
Fannie?
Speaker 3 (33:51):
F.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Freddie, fannie, fannie, fannie.
I mean that.
I'm going to make this explicit.
That was shitty.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
I mean, that should never have happened.
Yeah Right, but it is what itis.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Yeah, I mean, it's inherent, and I'm here this
topic.
I liken this very high altitudethought process to almost like
idea making.
Do I think the industry isheaded on the wrong trajectory?
(34:27):
No, I do not.
I think that there are amajority of good, compliant
companies that lead theknowledge here.
But to your example at thestart of the call around, where
our industry went really fast isit became super monetized and
it got easy and it was withoutreally oversight.
(34:49):
Because my first boss told mewhen I got in this business and
he said to me he's like Dan, I'mgoing to tell you right now, as
long as the number is bigenough, nothing else matters.
And ultimately, when thosedecisions start getting made and
nobody's there to say, oh yeah,but wait, you need to check
these boxes before you do that,it will not take long for our
(35:12):
industry to get on the wrongside of that.
So I think it's very relevantfor us to talk about these
things and I'm not here today tosay the sky is falling.
I'm here to say that, hey, wegot to pay attention as an
industry and we got to work withwhatever regulators that are
left and advocate for supportand certainly our finance system
(35:37):
in this industry and make surethat we're working together and
fighting against that everysingle day, because it won't be
long if we don't before somebodyis knocking on my door saying,
hey, you can sell us loans withthese characteristics and I'm
like you got to be kidding me.
Yeah, you don't even need a paystub, you don't need an
appraisal, you just need to dothis, and pretty soon we're all
(35:59):
just doing these mods and we'reputting people into things that
we don't even realize ishappening.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
I think that's well said, and I just want to add one
point to that Keep doing theright thing.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Yeah, I mean.
For me it's involvement.
I'm not Lewis.
I've learned a long time agothat I am, and I've heard the
other leaders say this.
I'm not the smartest tool in theshed, but what I am is very
well networked, like I saidearlier on the call, and I try
to build that synergy withpeople that are thought leaders
and not always have the samethought as me, because that's
(36:26):
when I really start tounderstand this business and it
is when we do our visits to NAC,the National Advocacy
Conference, or if you go withAcuma to do a Hill Day, or if
you go to your local state anddo those, you will understand
(36:46):
very quickly that this businessis complex and that nobody
understands it.
And the more you can be anadvocate of that and understand
that you're better, the betteroff we are.
There are some very brightpeople that run companies today
that are very much motivated onthe financial piece of our
(37:08):
business and, as I used to sayabout a boss of mine one time,
you never let the facts get inthe way of a good story.
So you have to make sure thatyou stick to the facts and
understand where our industry istoday.
Okay, perfect.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
Well, dan, we need to start transitioning, but before
we do, like I said, I alwaysstart with the first question
and always end first samequestion.
And always start with the firstquestion and always end first
same question and always endwith the same last question.
What keeps you going?
What motivates you?
Like everyone else, one footout of bed, and so, dan, what
keeps you going?
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Well, it's probably a different answer, both
personally and professionally.
So I'll go professionally.
For me, I feel like I'veaccomplished just about
everything I set out to do in myprofessional career.
So today, for me it's the giveback piece, and I know that
sounds really corny, but I spenda lot of time and energy
(38:06):
mentoring, doing things forother people to continue to grow
and lower the age in ourindustry.
We've spent now two and a halfyears and somewhere around you
know, in man hours or teammember hours probably north of
five or six hundred thousanddollars building our own
(38:29):
university here at Michigan.
First, and kudos to our teamfor all that work.
But for me that's that's legacy, that's trying to train the
next generation to do it acredit union way, and it is
different.
You know and I'm not saying thatto be an elitist or say it's
better I've worked in every areaof this business big banks,
(38:49):
small banks, independents andnow the last nine years in the
credit union space, and I willtell you that I think credit
union mortgage really answersall the check marks for me and
what home ownership means.
We engage with our member, weeducate our member, we make sure
(39:10):
that we provide the bestproduct the most affordable rate
in our opinion, certainly onwhat we can execute on and give
them the access to the toolsthey need to be successful
homeowners.
And I think that's what thecredit union does every single
day in every aspect of theirbusiness.
And if you shoehorn mortgageinto that, I believe it is for
(39:33):
me, given that I've worked inevery area, probably the best
connection to what is best forour members.
And I'm not like I said.
I'm not saying that because Idon't think there are good
independent mortgage banks orbanks out there.
I'm just telling you that,lived in this and seen being
part of Acuma, working withother credit unions, it is a
(39:57):
real dovetail between whatcredit union culture is, what
drives us, our mission, ourstatement every day and how
mortgage can fit into that.
And sometimes that means wedon't grow as fast as
independent mortgage banks, butwe grow consistently every
single year and that's what I'mproud to do today and that give
(40:18):
back, really, for me, is whatI'm after today.
Speaker 4 (40:22):
Love it, love it.
Well, dan, it's time for us totransition to our second segment
, and again, this is in oursecond segment.
This is where we play Jeopardy.
Sometimes we do fun facts, buttoday we're going to do the most
requested segment of dad jokes,and so, prior to our recording,
I asked that you come preparedwith two to three dad jokes.
Just looking at the time, let'sgo ahead and do two dad jokes
(40:46):
each.
So what we're going to do isI'm going to have you say two
dad jokes each.
So what we're going to do isI'm going to have you say two
dad jokes.
I'm going to have Justin do twodad jokes, and then I will wrap
up with two dad jokes, and thenwe'll just end the podcast and
call it a day.
Sound good, perfect Soundsgreat All right After you, sir.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
All right.
So I'm going to do one mortgagethemed one, and then I'll do
one maybe less mortgage themed.
So the first one I'm going toget you with is who do you call,
or what do you call someone whomails mortgage statements?
What?
Post Malone, you're welcome.
(41:25):
Okay, that's a good one.
You just want to stop now.
Okay, all right, all right.
And then, uh, let's see, let mepick another good one for you.
Uh, okay, what did the lunchboxsay to the refrigerator?
(41:49):
What?
Chill out.
Yeah, don't hate me because I'ma little cooler, alright.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Justin, how do flat earthers travel?
How On a plane?
That one's?
(42:17):
Deep I enjoyed that one.
Um, okay, and then?
Why can't dinosaurs clap theirhands?
Why?
Because they're extinct wait.
Speaker 4 (42:31):
First of all, I already did that one.
I already did that one.
I should have known that one.
I should know that.
I should know that one.
Oh damn it.
Alright, that was a good one.
I love that one, thank you.
A caveman and a bear walk intoa bar.
Bartender says okay, what'syour story?
(42:51):
Caveman replies bear with me.
Okay, I meant to do a voicewith that, but I didn't.
Okay, what did Hulk Hogan askin his art class?
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Rip my shirt.
I don't know, art class Rippedmy shirt.
I don't know what I don't know.
Speaker 4 (43:17):
What are you going to glue brother?
Speaker 2 (43:23):
That's a pretty good impression, thank you.
Speaker 4 (43:26):
Thank you All right.
Well, that wraps up Good stuff.
That wraps up this episode'sversion of Dad Jokes.
Well, Dan, thank you very muchfor joining us on this episode
of AcroZone Point Podcast.
Really did enjoy theconversation and, of course,
appreciate everything that youdo for our industry and again
(43:46):
hope to see you soon, my friend.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Yeah, I get.
Thank you for the opportunity,and anytime I get to hang out
with another CMB it's great.
So thanks, Peter.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Absolutely.
And Justin, thank you.
Of course.
It was my pleasure and to allof you, we knew your time is
valuable.
Thank you for tuning in to thelatest episode of Acuma's On
Point Podcast.
We hope you enjoyed it.
Until next time.
Be well, my friends.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Thanks for listening.
We'll see you next time at theAcuma On Point podcast.
If not already, be sure tosubscribe and give us a
five-star rating For more greatepisodes and information.
Be sure to visit us online atacumaorg and to get the latest
updates.
Head over to our LinkedIn page.
The views and opinions expressed in this
podcast do not necessarilyreflect the views or positions
of ACUMA, its board of directors, its management staff or its
members.
The podcast discussionpresented is conversational in
nature and for generalinformation only.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
Hello and welcome to Actors On Point Podcast, a
series focused on sharing thestories of people who are making
a positive impact in the creditunion mortgage industry.
I'm your host, peter Benjamin.
Today, I am joined by Dan Sugg,chief Mortgage Lending Officer
with Michigan First Mortgage.
Dan, my friend, how are youdoing today?
I'm doing fabulous.
That is good to hear.
(00:52):
Now, dan, you are a legend innot just the credit union space
but the mortgage industry.
Our conversation today issomething that I think not just
credit unions but mortgagelenders as a whole need to hear.
As always, I'm excited for theconversation.
It's one that we've talkedabout at events.
It's one that we talked aboutduring our policy podcast.
(01:15):
I've talked about it severaltimes with our lobbyists.
I know that I'm sandbagging,but I have to pause slightly, as
always got to bring the hawk in.
Justin, what is the latest andgreatest happening over at Acuma
?
And, by the way, how are youdoing today?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I'm good, peter, how are you Living the dream?
See, I'm telling you that'swhat I like to hear.
And so over here at Acuma,we're not busy, it's the middle
of spring.
I mean, we're just kind ofenjoying the flowers and the
trees.
No, I'm kidding, we just gotback from Savannah, which was, I
(01:57):
mean, that was amazing.
That was absolutely stunning.
That city has so much charm.
The speakers, the sessions,they were absolutely fantastic.
The networking was amazing.
There was so much sharing andcollaboration.
I mean, I know you love theworkshops, but for me, like the
roundtable, those are alwaysreally exciting to see and just
(02:19):
getting to see everybody share.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
How about that rock paper scissors?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
contest.
You know, that was new, thatwas different.
Um, if you were not there, youdefinitely missed a uh a hoot.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
If you what did?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I miss that sounds amazing.
So since it's down south, wegotta speak in that that
vernacular it was a hoot yeah, ahoot a hoot, come on.
I am from the South.
I can pull those Southern rootsout somewhere.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Bless your heart, justin Bless, your heart there
we go.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Bless your heart.
I like it Dan's throwing me offhere, all right.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Our next in-person event is, uh, just happening.
In a few weeks, we're going tohave our second focal point
workshop of the year.
It's going to be in seattle.
Uh, what's going on?
On june 3rd and 4th?
There is still plenty of timeto register.
So if you missed the rock paperscissors tournament and if you
missed the amazing sessions,don't miss this one.
It's going to be fantastic.
There might even be anotherrock paper scissors tournament.
(03:25):
It's on the agenda just sayingright, there is um, if you are
able to come, if you're a creditunion or accuso, um, we have a
volume discount, so groups oftwo or more can actually get two
hundred dollars off of eachregistration.
So that's a little bit of ashameless plug to get you, to
help get you there, um.
And then, lastly, our make yourmark annual conference.
(03:45):
That's the last in-person eventof the year.
It's going to round us out.
That's happening september 21stto the 24th in denver.
Super excited, um, if youhaven't seen yet, we have, um, a
lot of big stuff planned.
So check out the agenda.
We have, the first time ever,acting is throwing.
Not only are we going to haveour reception, but we're going
(04:06):
to have an after party as well.
So the after party is going tostart before the entire event,
pretty much.
But you know it's okay, it'snot really an after party, but
it's an after party for Sunday.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
It's a continuation.
We don't.
We need.
We need to think of, like, a, adifferent name for the, the,
the after party, since it's likeday one.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
But yeah, okay, and and it can't be pre-gaming,
right?
I mean, I had no problemcalling it a pre-game party.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Okay, yeah, it's something, something.
If it's, it's like literally onday one, it's not an an after
party.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
No, not really.
The after party is supposed totake after the party, right?
No?
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Something like that.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I think that's the way it goes, but we're going in
reverse order.
We're going to have such anamazing time there, so don't
miss it.
Registration is open.
Head over to the Acuna site formore information.
And again, we have the volumediscount.
So if you're registering agroup of three or more in your
(05:09):
credit union or CUSO, you canget $200 off of each
registration as well.
And then, outside of ourin-person events, if you're
looking for additionalnetworking and educational
opportunities, we have our YoungProfessional Network.
Their quarterly meeting ishappening next week, on May 22nd
, so head over to the websiteand register.
We have the UnderwritingNetwork quarterly meeting
happening on June 10th, sothere's still a little bit of
time there.
And then our webinar series theFast Tracks and Inside Tracks
(05:31):
are happening year round.
Our next one's coming uptomorrow, so you have plenty of
time still to register for that.
And then, lastly, our infamousOn Point podcast.
It helps keep the fun andlearning going all year long
awesome, uh, needless to say, weare quite busy.
Yeah, that's why it was sort ofa joke in the beginning, but you
(05:51):
didn't kind of latch on to theflowers and trees.
I was trying to go hippie, butyou didn't kind of join me sorry
I was.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
I was day jeremy for a second about savannah.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Still, I know that that's okay.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
No, that's all right, I just kind of dozed off.
Anyways, all right, thank youvery much, my pleasure.
All right, dan.
Yes, sir, all right, here we go.
All right.
So, like I said, excited forthis conversation.
But before we dive in, I alwaysask the same question first and
I always end with the samequestion last, and so here we go
(06:23):
.
First question as always, I haveto preface it like I always do
the Acme's On Point podcast.
It's a people piece.
The idea is we want to learnmore about the people who make a
positive impact in our industry.
You are one of those people.
You are highly regarded as athought leader.
You are highly regarded notjust in that credit union space
(06:44):
but the mortgage industry.
I mean, there's a reason whyyou are on.
You know MBA's ResVog.
I mean there's a reason why yousit on, you know panels.
Throughout our events,throughout MBA's events, people
look to you for guidance, to bethat beacon.
But the big question is and thisis why this is always the first
(07:06):
question we ask who is Dan Sugg?
People want to know.
I think that's why we want todive into this as Aquas on Point
podcast is because we want topeel back that layer, because
all too often we listen to thesepodcasts and we always focus on
leadership.
We always focus on, you know,what are your thoughts on the
(07:30):
economy?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
What are your thoughts on themortgage market?
What's your thoughts on this?
Regulatory issues.
But we never actually, you know, focus on who we are as a human
being, right, and so that's whythe Atkinson Point podcast was
established to figure out whatmakes us tick.
And so here we go.
What makes Dan Sugg tick?
(07:51):
Who is Dan Sugg?
First, question out who is DanSugg.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Well, I think it probably.
First of all, thank you forhaving me on the podcast today.
It's it's been quite an honorto be asked and certainly I look
at these opportunities, reallyget to know the audience a
little bit better and certainlylearn a bit more about the
industry.
But if you look back at mycareer, I didn't start in the
mortgage business.
(08:16):
I started in the manufacturingbusiness and it really was a
family-run, kind of convenientthing to do.
After secondary education wasto jump into the family business
and ultimately I would probablystill be there if that didn't
come to an end, really not in myown volition, but through a
sale.
I ended up finding myselflooking for a job and I went to
(08:39):
the last person, terry Conway.
He's still in the business.
I went to him because he hadjust done my mortgage we had
just built a home and I said,man, he drives a nice car and
seems to know what's going onand I think he really ultimately
would be able to give me a goodlook at the mortgage business.
And almost 31 years later, hereI am.
(08:59):
I started as a loan officer herein Michigan, like a lot of
people, got a box of cards and afinger pointed in that
direction, saying, hey, you needto go call on that territory
and find some loans and you know, really, a week's worth of
training and you're out makingit happen.
And I found very early on thatyou know in the 90s if you will
that the bar for education inour industry was pretty low.
(09:22):
And I said, if I'm going tomake this, I need to feel
confident, I need to trainmyself, and that's really kind
of how I got my basis for therest of my career.
Couple that with some veryearly advice from my brother who
was in the business.
He said align yourself with anorganization that shares the
(09:43):
values of what you want toaccomplish.
And it was pretty early that Ijoined Michigan Mortgage Lenders
Association it was calledsomething different back then
and I started to network withpeople like yourself, peter,
like Justin, people in theindustry that had knowledge of
different ways outside of what Iwas currently accustomed to in
(10:05):
my job of doing this business.
And I started to get areputation that I was willing to
do the hard work, that I waswilling to learn the processes
and certainly the procedures andthe guidelines and, before you
know it, like any goodorganization, you're really good
at this.
Let's promote you to a leader.
And I became an assistantmanager, I became a manager, I
(10:29):
became a regional and juststarted working my way up and at
some point I felt like that wasa higher calling for me than
slinging loans every day.
And make no mistake, I tookgreat pride in being a top LO in
this country At one point inprobably the slowest year in our
mortgage business in 2000,.
I did at that time over 400closings personally and that was
(10:54):
a big number back then.
I mean the average loan amountobviously was probably $80,000.
It was the year 2000 and it wasmostly purchased but it was
hustling to get there and I takegreat pride in that.
I made sales trips every yearand I felt like that was the
pinnacle of my success.
But then I realized I can helpother people grow and, given
(11:16):
that I spent 10 years inmanufacturing before I got in
this business, I tended to beolder than most people around me
.
So I started mentoringsalespeople, grew areas and then
I took an opportunity to join abank and I took a job with
LaSalle Bank to be a regionalmanager in Michigan and helped
grow that to well over a billiondollars in origination every
(11:39):
year and, as you can say, therest is kind of history and I
followed very briefly we'll gointo the story here I followed
the pattern of our business.
Banking was really the biggest,largest share of the business
in the early 2000s.
Then you get past the financialmeltdown of 2008, 2009, and
(12:00):
then it started to shift toindependent mortgage banks and I
felt that if I was going tocontinue to grow in my acumen in
the mortgage business, I neededto align myself in that area of
the business.
Banks were kind of pulling backand so I spent about eight
years eight and a half years onthe independent mortgage bank
side, helping grow threedifferent companies across this
(12:21):
nation and opened branches in Ithink at the last count I think
it was 28 states.
I'd been part of going in andbuilding branch networks for
privately held independentmortgage banks across this
country.
And, peter, that's how you andI passed I was actually running,
or became to pass our pathscrossed.
I was running a company inHorsham, pennsylvania, and I
(12:44):
went to the New Jersey LendersAssociation you were looking for
an opportunity, I believe, andwe talked there and got to meet
you with our CME designationsand understand what it is that
you did and built that networkand I have those all across this
nation and I think that's wheremostly you know my reputation
in this industry comes from isthe network that I have been
(13:05):
able to build throughout thecountry.
There isn't really a state thatI don't know somebody in.
I had a call with Alan Fowleryesterday and Alan's in New
Mexico and I know like threepeople now in New Mexico and I
was like I've never even been toNew Mexico and certainly you
spent the entire population ofNew Mexico.
(13:39):
You just met the entirepopulation of New part.
Engaging and advocating andinvolving and engaging with the
association is the part wherethe real value is and that's
what I've really focused outsideof my day job on is building
that network for me and itcertainly has served me very
well.
I sit on a number of advisoryboards today, both with Freddie
(14:04):
Mac and LendersOne and in myinvolvement with MBA, certainly
with the ResBog committee.
I'll be chairman of ResBog, avice chair now at ResBog next
year and sitting on the board ofdirectors for MBA.
It's been eye-opening to me thelevel of certainly connections
(14:24):
that I've been able to build andaccess and help me become a
better, stronger person in thismortgage industry.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Okay, that was perfect.
Perfect, which kind of is anexcellent segue to the topic and
why I'm so excited about it andwhy you are the perfect person
to talk about this topic.
And, like I said, this is atopic that we have talked about
several times at our events andon this podcast, but you know
the policy episodes.
(14:52):
It is the idea of backslidingthat our industry could
potentially do as a result ofthe things that are happening in
DC and, as you and I both know,and as we've discussed and read
in various publications andwatched on the news, the
(15:16):
administration and the thingsthat the lawmakers are currently
doing are radically changingour industry in ways that we
have not seen since Dodd-Frankwas established Right.
But in this case, it's areversal of things that we have
(15:40):
been doing since Dodd-FrankRight, we're basically turning
back the clock, yeah have beendoing since Dodd-Frank.
Right, we're basically turningback the clock and so you know,
the conversation is reallyfocused on you know that, like
you and I said, you know that,backsliding, the changing of
gears and going back in time,2007, 2006, 2005, 2004.
(16:03):
Do we go back to that time of?
You know, heaven forbid.
You know all day.
And subprime lending and no doc.
You know that's 620, 95, no doc.
And all of a sudden, everyone,if you have a breath, you know a
heartbeat and you know, youknow just a name, you can get
(16:25):
alone.
I mean, are we doing this?
But I know you have somethoughts on this and I want to
hear from you and I know ourlisteners want to hear from you
on this.
But you know things that arehappening at HUD, cfpb, the GSEs
.
I mean what I think at thispoint in time.
Here we are, you know, early tomid-May.
(16:48):
You know it was about threeweeks ago.
I mean what the CVB laid off,what 1,200 staff members.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Yeah, last week certainly, and you know.
So first of all, let me prefacethis a little bit.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
This is all Dan.
Yeah, this is all Dan, no oneelse.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
All Dan, I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone but
this old guy sitting in theseat.
And my fear isn't so much Alte,I mean that's.
Certainly we know the mistakesthere, but I equate it to
dismantling the state police inyour respective state.
And while the speed limit signsare still up, we know there's
(17:32):
nobody on the road to enforcethem, or at least we
perceptionally think that, basedon what we're reading and
seeing and that propensity in anentrepreneurial driven business
like mortgage has people startpushing the envelope and
starting to think.
Envelope and starting to thinkwell gosh, maybe we can make
(17:59):
sense of this and convince ourlegal team that we can push the
very limits of those guidelinesthat have kept our mortgage
business safe for the years.
And that's where my fear liesis that in the desperation of
our current economic situationin mortgage, let's face it we're
still toiling to make a buck inthis business.
We have, certainly in thecredit union industry, we've
(18:22):
weathered the storm withoutlaying a lot of people off like
an independent mortgage bank hasdone, and I think that would
have been even more prudent.
But, given our culture on ourside, think that would have been
even more prudent, but givenour culture on our side, we've
kept a lot of the expense.
I can speak for Michigan Firstthere.
So we're fighting every dayjust to continue to be
profitable, and that tends tohave you make different
(18:48):
decisions than you've made inthe past.
Well, if you do that nowwithout the threat of, or
certainly the perception of athreat of well, nobody's kind of
looking, you're willing to say,well, you know, maybe we can do
that, maybe we can go just alittle bit farther on that DTI
or a little higher on that OTV,or maybe we can, maybe we can
(19:08):
put that risk on our books,books.
And if you think about some ofthe organizations that we have
today that are, like I said,entrepreneurial in spirit, that
can get away from you reallyfast.
And I've seen, not a directexample of that, but I have
certainly seen decisions startto be made out of frustration,
(19:29):
out of necessity and, even worse, out of desperation.
And those are the times thatyou start to really I get really
concerned about, boy, as anindustry, are we moving that
pendulum way too far on theother side.
You know, this for me is not apolitical conversation so much
as it is an ethical conversationabout how, you know, we say at
(19:55):
Michigan First, I say atMichigan, first, that housing,
home ownership is a privilege,not a right, and it doesn't mean
that you can't earn the right,that you can't get there, and
it's not just for the privileged, but it is something to behold
because it is a 30-yearcommitment.
Like I always say to our newheirs, it's a marriage.
(20:17):
You are literally getting intoa marriage and making promises
that you have to keep and if youdon't, bad things happen.
And making that ultimately soeasy that anybody can get into
that commitment is not going tohave good results.
And if you think of all therisk factors that have raised, I
(20:38):
mean, I know that I'm enjoyinga much greater value in my home
today than I did even just fouror five years ago, and in some
cases, you know I'll use my sonas an example I have.
My oldest son bought a home in2017 and he thought he was in a
bidding war then and he ended uppaying $190,000 for this ranch
(20:58):
and I thought, god, he paid alot of money for that.
That thing today zills for like380.
And he thinks he's won thelottery and I'm like, holy moly,
it's literally seven years andit's doubled in value in little
old Livonia, michigan.
So if you think about thatpeople getting in at $380,000
today and being max LTV, max DTIand getting $25,000 of free
(21:24):
money and really pushing theenvelope right to the edge, it
spells disaster if we lose valueagain.
And that's what keeps me up alot at night, not so much for
our organization, obviously,because we're a little bit more
conservative, but fororganizations that are hanging
on trying to pay the light billevery day.
It's not going to take much fora couple of those to just cash
(21:47):
out a few of these organizationsand there's a lot of that, I
think, perceptually changingtoday.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
And there's a lot of that.
I think perceptually changingtoday was that saying yes to a
potentially risky borrower hasthe potential to jeopardize the
entire credit union.
And we have a fiduciaryresponsibility to protect the
(22:28):
entire financial institution.
And just because, yes, the loanofficer is going to push for
every single loan, they're theadvocate for the member and
every single loan.
But they also have a fiduciaryresponsibility for the credit
union.
And I agree with you that thereis a concern that, with all the
(22:53):
changes that are happening, thatyou know, with all the changes
that are happening, you know HUD, fhfa, you know the things that
they're pushing down on theGSEs, the CFPB and CUA I mean,
you name it, we can go down thislist.
You know, at some point in timewe have to be concerned that we
(23:19):
have to maintain that.
We have to be concerned thatthe people who are regulating us
are not going to besufficiently staffed to monitor
us and you're going to have somebad actors that are just going
to take advantage of that andjust do whatever they want.
And I'm not saying creditunions, but if you look at the
(23:42):
full spectrum of our industrybanks, credit unions, imbs,
brokers someone's going to takeadvantage of it hands down.
It's just natural.
Someone's going to find a of ithands down.
It's just natural.
Someone's going to find aloophole and exploit it.
Just people are naturally goingto try to find the shortest
(24:06):
line to that finish line.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yeah, this commodity has been monetized, certainly,
and there's certainly a freemarket, capital society, a
balance, if you will, that Ithink this industry enjoys, and
when that does get out ofbalance it is troublesome.
You reminded me a little bitkind of, about the different
analogies that we use in thisbusiness and if you think about
(24:34):
what decision we're making whenwe put somebody in a home.
We had a recent.
Obviously in the last two weekswe've had very large swings
both in the stock market and inthe bond market and I happened
to be at a conference I wasactually at MBA attending a peer
group review when we werehaving those huge swings in the
stock market.
(24:55):
The administration wasannouncing tariffs and then not
tariffs and then back, and therewas a lot going on and I think
on that Friday we called it the45-minute refi boom, where the
bond market just dove, rateswent down with it and then there
was about a 325 basis pointswing in the 30-year Fannie Mae
(25:15):
coupon and we had memberspre-approved in the morning that
were denied in the afternoonbased on their rate moving
enough index and that tells methat we are primarily approving
first-time homebuyers at the maxDTI.
And if you think about thecommitment to homeownership and
(25:38):
the idea that you know thatpeople get into homes that they
can afford and be successfulhomeowners, when it can be
jeopardized inner day based onthe dealings of our current
administration or currentCongress or, you know, insert
any economic event that puts usat jeopardy as an industry.
It puts our homeowners atjeopardy of being successful and
(26:01):
ultimately we could go into theGSE reform but ultimately,
without that federal commitmentor that backstop on our industry
, we wouldn't have a 30-yearfixed rate mortgage.
We would be dealing in arms andballoons today if it was all
privatized.
And I think that's important toremember that the Fed plays a
(26:23):
pretty good role in our industryat giving the space for us to
be entrepreneurial and advocate.
But you can't have it both ways.
You can't have a set of rulesbut nobody to enforce them.
Have it both ways you can'thave a set of rules but nobody
to enforce them, because, leftto our own device, we will, as
an industry, we will push theenvelope.
That's how we're built and thatis, you know, like I said, that
(26:44):
is concerning for me andcertainly, I think, for others
in the industry.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Right.
I think we have to remindourselves that we are fortunate
to have that 30-year fix.
Other countries do not.
They do not.
Yeah, and you know that is aprivilege, that that we have and
at any point in time I hate tosay it could it could very well
be taken, taken away from usyeah, and I you know, obviously
(27:11):
being at nac peter, I think youwere there and advocating on the
Hill, and I know that Acumadoes that work too.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
That was one of our talking points.
We are the gold standard ofhome finance.
We have the strongest,certainly, real estate finance
community industry and system inthe world and that would be in
jeopardy if that changed.
For sure and I think you knowyou touched on a little bit
(27:39):
there are a lot of good thingshappening.
Well, certainly economicallygood things happening.
The federal government is not arevenue machine.
It is a 100% expense and it'salways good to review and make
sure that there is no waste orfraud.
I don't know that anybody wouldargue that point, but I get a
(28:03):
little bit concerned thatthey're so fixated on cut the
number to the bone that we'll gopast some of the backstops and
some of the support that weactually use in the industry.
And I find it very ironic thatI'm sitting here advocating for
a CFPB that is adequatelystaffed when you know, 10 years
(28:26):
ago we couldn't even say thatname without changing the letter
F to something else.
I promise, I wouldn't say that.
But, yeah, so it is ironic, butwhat we've learned is that,
yeah, those guidelines can beuseful when the balance is
(28:46):
correct working with industry,working with organizations like
Acuma, mba, to form the policythat works for everyone.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Right, I mean.
But here's the thing there hasto be and you said it and you
hinted at it there has to bethat balance, right?
You can't strip something downto bare bones, whether it's a
GSE or another form of regulator.
It can't be stripped down tobare bones.
Because here's what's going tohappen Politicians come and go,
(29:16):
midterm elections come and goand the administration is going
to change and it has a potentialto change parties at any point
in time.
What happens when it goes fromRepublican to Democrat and the
next administration is aDemocrat and that Democrat
administration wants to rampback up?
(29:38):
I'll use the CFPB as an example.
They're gonna come back andforce and anyone who did that
backsliding and took advantageof these loopholes and the fact
that the CFPB didn't have theresources to enforce every
(30:03):
single regulation that was outthere, you better believe
they're going to start targetingyou.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
You better believe it , you better believe they're
going to start targeting you.
You better believe it.
We've already seen it.
We've.
You know, as much as we'd liketo think, that the CFPB has not
been politicized one way or theother, it certainly has.
You know, I don't know that anycommon sense.
You have to be careful here.
Any person with using commonsense would go in and thinking
(30:29):
that the divisiveness of one wayor the other is good for anyone
.
It's only good for a smallpercentage of people and
ultimately there's a lot of goodpeople that worked at CFPB.
I mean, certainly did they havewaste?
I'm sure of it, everyorganization does.
Did they have overreach?
Of course, we've talked aboutthat ad nauseum, but ultimately
(30:53):
it is there to serve a purposeand certainly make us stronger
and more compliant and certainlymore based in sound decision as
a group.
Certainly and this is from anorganization that I've been at
for the last nine years thathasn't been in the direct
purview of CFPB.
But guess what?
The NCUA takes their cues fromCFPB.
(31:14):
They take that guidance andcertainly in our you know.
Another risk, really, withoutyou know the breadth at CFPB
that we need is and we've talkedabout this in a couple
different venues, venues is thestates seeing certainly their
responsibility to step up, getour industry in line and, if you
(31:39):
have, if you think you don'tlike the CFPB, if you're an IMB
or a credit union that operatesin several states, have 30 or 40
different sets of rules and,before you know it, you can't
even lend in certain states,like you're like all right, I'm
going to pull out of all thesestates.
I'm going to do this because Ican't even I can't abide.
It's too costly to abide bythose rules.
(32:00):
And that's really where, insome regards, the CFPB has made
it a level playing field andgiven the states the ability to
kind of pull back on theirregulatory enforcement and point
to the CFPB in some of thoseareas.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Yeah, I mean, trust me, I hate it.
You know, working at IMB andthen having almost like a
revolving door of states comingin.
It was just back-to-back weeksor when multiple states were in
there at a time.
That was the worst, the worst.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Yeah, you had to set aside a conference room just for
the auditors, like there wasalways somebody in there.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Yeah, always 100%.
It was just a revolving doorand giving them a laptop just
for them to use it was horrible.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Anyways, I'm honestly amazed right now, because when
you were just talking about arevolving door state, I was like
man, that's a really weird wayof referring to a state.
I didn't realize you werereferring to people.
So a little moment for me.
Yeah there you go, Justin.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
Talking about auditors, auditors from states.
Yes, yes, there you go, justin.
Welcome to the conversation.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
I mean, you know, I've been here the whole time
and I'm trying to follow along,but I didn't know we were
talking about people in thatmoment.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Can you not see my cue cards?
Speaker 4 (33:17):
No, I'm joking and just, we're talking about people
, Thank you.
But anyways, you know these areand I do want to go back to
something you said and I do wantto go back to something you
said there were yes, there areand there were good people at
the CVP and GSEs and throughoutthe entire government that were
(33:38):
laid off, but there also werebad actors and there are bad
actors in the mortgage businessthat remain.
I mean, you can look at therecent fraud that happened at.
Was it Fannie or Freddie?
Fannie?
Speaker 3 (33:51):
F.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Freddie, fannie, fannie, fannie.
I mean that.
I'm going to make this explicit.
That was shitty.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
I mean, that should never have happened.
Yeah Right, but it is what itis.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Yeah, I mean, it's inherent, and I'm here this
topic.
I liken this very high altitudethought process to almost like
idea making.
Do I think the industry isheaded on the wrong trajectory?
(34:27):
No, I do not.
I think that there are amajority of good, compliant
companies that lead theknowledge here.
But to your example at thestart of the call around, where
our industry went really fast isit became super monetized and
it got easy and it was withoutreally oversight.
(34:49):
Because my first boss told mewhen I got in this business and
he said to me he's like Dan, I'mgoing to tell you right now, as
long as the number is bigenough, nothing else matters.
And ultimately, when thosedecisions start getting made and
nobody's there to say, oh yeah,but wait, you need to check
these boxes before you do that,it will not take long for our
(35:12):
industry to get on the wrongside of that.
So I think it's very relevantfor us to talk about these
things and I'm not here today tosay the sky is falling.
I'm here to say that, hey, wegot to pay attention as an
industry and we got to work withwhatever regulators that are
left and advocate for supportand certainly our finance system
(35:37):
in this industry and make surethat we're working together and
fighting against that everysingle day, because it won't be
long if we don't before somebodyis knocking on my door saying,
hey, you can sell us loans withthese characteristics and I'm
like you got to be kidding me.
Yeah, you don't even need a paystub, you don't need an
appraisal, you just need to dothis, and pretty soon we're all
(35:59):
just doing these mods and we'reputting people into things that
we don't even realize ishappening.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
I think that's well said, and I just want to add one
point to that Keep doing theright thing.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Yeah, I mean.
For me it's involvement.
I'm not Lewis.
I've learned a long time agothat I am, and I've heard the
other leaders say this.
I'm not the smartest tool in theshed, but what I am is very
well networked, like I saidearlier on the call, and I try
to build that synergy withpeople that are thought leaders
and not always have the samethought as me, because that's
(36:26):
when I really start tounderstand this business and it
is when we do our visits to NAC,the National Advocacy
Conference, or if you go withAcuma to do a Hill Day, or if
you go to your local state anddo those, you will understand
(36:46):
very quickly that this businessis complex and that nobody
understands it.
And the more you can be anadvocate of that and understand
that you're better, the betteroff we are.
There are some very brightpeople that run companies today
that are very much motivated onthe financial piece of our
(37:08):
business and, as I used to sayabout a boss of mine one time,
you never let the facts get inthe way of a good story.
So you have to make sure thatyou stick to the facts and
understand where our industry istoday.
Okay, perfect.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
Well, dan, we need to start transitioning, but before
we do, like I said, I alwaysstart with the first question
and always end first samequestion.
And always start with the firstquestion and always end first
same question and always endwith the same last question.
What keeps you going?
What motivates you?
Like everyone else, one footout of bed, and so, dan, what
keeps you going?
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Well, it's probably a different answer, both
personally and professionally.
So I'll go professionally.
For me, I feel like I'veaccomplished just about
everything I set out to do in myprofessional career.
So today, for me it's the giveback piece, and I know that
sounds really corny, but I spenda lot of time and energy
(38:06):
mentoring, doing things forother people to continue to grow
and lower the age in ourindustry.
We've spent now two and a halfyears and somewhere around you
know, in man hours or teammember hours probably north of
five or six hundred thousanddollars building our own
(38:29):
university here at Michigan.
First, and kudos to our teamfor all that work.
But for me that's that's legacy, that's trying to train the
next generation to do it acredit union way, and it is
different.
You know and I'm not saying thatto be an elitist or say it's
better I've worked in every areaof this business big banks,
(38:49):
small banks, independents andnow the last nine years in the
credit union space, and I willtell you that I think credit
union mortgage really answersall the check marks for me and
what home ownership means.
We engage with our member, weeducate our member, we make sure
(39:10):
that we provide the bestproduct the most affordable rate
in our opinion, certainly onwhat we can execute on and give
them the access to the toolsthey need to be successful
homeowners.
And I think that's what thecredit union does every single
day in every aspect of theirbusiness.
And if you shoehorn mortgageinto that, I believe it is for
(39:33):
me, given that I've worked inevery area, probably the best
connection to what is best forour members.
And I'm not like I said.
I'm not saying that because Idon't think there are good
independent mortgage banks orbanks out there.
I'm just telling you that,lived in this and seen being
part of Acuma, working withother credit unions, it is a
(39:57):
real dovetail between whatcredit union culture is, what
drives us, our mission, ourstatement every day and how
mortgage can fit into that.
And sometimes that means wedon't grow as fast as
independent mortgage banks, butwe grow consistently every
single year and that's what I'mproud to do today and that give
(40:18):
back, really, for me, is whatI'm after today.
Speaker 4 (40:22):
Love it, love it.
Well, dan, it's time for us totransition to our second segment
, and again, this is in oursecond segment.
This is where we play Jeopardy.
Sometimes we do fun facts, buttoday we're going to do the most
requested segment of dad jokes,and so, prior to our recording,
I asked that you come preparedwith two to three dad jokes.
Just looking at the time, let'sgo ahead and do two dad jokes
(40:46):
each.
So what we're going to do isI'm going to have you say two
dad jokes each.
So what we're going to do isI'm going to have you say two
dad jokes.
I'm going to have Justin do twodad jokes, and then I will wrap
up with two dad jokes, and thenwe'll just end the podcast and
call it a day.
Sound good, perfect Soundsgreat All right After you, sir.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
All right.
So I'm going to do one mortgagethemed one, and then I'll do
one maybe less mortgage themed.
So the first one I'm going toget you with is who do you call,
or what do you call someone whomails mortgage statements?
What?
Post Malone, you're welcome.
(41:25):
Okay, that's a good one.
You just want to stop now.
Okay, all right, all right.
And then, uh, let's see, let mepick another good one for you.
Uh, okay, what did the lunchboxsay to the refrigerator?
(41:49):
What?
Chill out.
Yeah, don't hate me because I'ma little cooler, alright.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Justin, how do flat earthers travel?
How On a plane?
That one's?
(42:17):
Deep I enjoyed that one.
Um, okay, and then?
Why can't dinosaurs clap theirhands?
Why?
Because they're extinct wait.
Speaker 4 (42:31):
First of all, I already did that one.
I already did that one.
I should have known that one.
I should know that.
I should know that one.
Oh damn it.
Alright, that was a good one.
I love that one, thank you.
A caveman and a bear walk intoa bar.
Bartender says okay, what'syour story?
(42:51):
Caveman replies bear with me.
Okay, I meant to do a voicewith that, but I didn't.
Okay, what did Hulk Hogan askin his art class?
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Rip my shirt.
I don't know, art class Rippedmy shirt.
I don't know what I don't know.
Speaker 4 (43:17):
What are you going to glue brother?
Speaker 2 (43:23):
That's a pretty good impression, thank you.
Speaker 4 (43:26):
Thank you All right.
Well, that wraps up Good stuff.
That wraps up this episode'sversion of Dad Jokes.
Well, Dan, thank you very muchfor joining us on this episode
of AcroZone Point Podcast.
Really did enjoy theconversation and, of course,
appreciate everything that youdo for our industry and again
(43:46):
hope to see you soon, my friend.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Yeah, I get.
Thank you for the opportunity,and anytime I get to hang out
with another CMB it's great.
So thanks, Peter.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Absolutely.
And Justin, thank you.
Of course.
It was my pleasure and to allof you, we knew your time is
valuable.
Thank you for tuning in to thelatest episode of Acuma's On
Point Podcast.
We hope you enjoyed it.
Until next time.
Be well, my friends.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Thanks for listening.
We'll see you next time at theAcuma On Point podcast.
If not already, be sure tosubscribe and give us a
five-star rating For more greatepisodes and information.
Be sure to visit us online atacumaorg and to get the latest
updates.
Head over to our LinkedIn page.
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