March 28, 2025 • 32 mins
The regulatory landscape for credit union mortgage operations is experiencing a seismic shift as new leadership takes control at key federal agencies. This thought-provoking conversation with policy expert Annmarie Conboy-DePasquale from Brownstein Hyatt Farber Schreck unpacks the latest developments affecting credit unions and their members.
Key discussion points you don't want to miss:
- Newly confirmed FHFA Director Bill Pulte has wasted no time making his presence felt, appointing himself chair of both Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac boards while removing numerous board members.
- Meanwhile, HUD has partnered with the DOGE team to target waste, fraud, and abuse within the agency. While its core mission of supporting affordable housing won't fundamentally change, workforce reductions could significantly impact program delivery.
- The discussion also examines NCUA's emphasis on streamlining regulations under Chairman Kyle Hauptman. It explores recent executive orders affecting Community Development Financial Institutions (CDFIs) – a particularly concerning development considering credit unions hold approximately 65% of CDFI assets nationwide.
For mortgage professionals supporting communities through lending, understanding these policy shifts is essential to navigating an increasingly complex regulatory environment. As one agency after another embraces "efficiency" as its mantra, what will the housing landscape look like when the dust settles?
Sponsored by Loan Vision
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The views and opinions expressed in this
podcast do not necessarilyreflect the views or positions
of Acuma, its board of directors, its management staff or its
members.
The podcast discussionpresented is conversational in
nature and for generalinformation only.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hello and welcome to Atkinson Point Podcast, the
policy series where we focus onpolicy issues impacting the
credit union mortgage industry.
I'm your host, peter Benjamin.
Before we get to our episode,just a quick word from our
sponsor.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
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(01:06):
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Speaker 2 (01:26):
Joining us today, as our resident expert is
Anne-Marie Conboy, PolicyAdvisor with Brownstein AM.
It's been a while.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I'm doing well.
Congress is in recess, doublerecess, for the first time this
year, which is very exciting forus here in Washington.
But more exciting is my returnto the podcast.
So thank you again for havingme.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
No, no, the pleasure is all ours.
You are a fan favorite, sothank you very much for being
here.
Excited to kind of break downthe topics today, and I think on
the docket is pretty muchessentially a agency round robin
.
So without further ado, let'sjust jump right in.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
So after you, please, great.
Well, yes, hopefully we havesomething for everyone today as
we hit on these various agencies, hopefully.
I wanted to start off with FHFAand just talk about the new
director over there, bill Pulte,who was confirmed on March 13th
.
He had a little bit ofbipartisan support coming out of
the Senate and he had notreally a rocky confirmation
(02:36):
hearing at all because he wasovershadowed there by the
presence of Jonathan McKernan,who is the nominee to lead the
CFPB.
But Pulte, since he took officelast Thursday, has been very,
very active on Twitter or X.
I have a hard time rememberingto say X, so forgive me if I
repeatedly say Twitter.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I won't, I won't, you know, say anything if you just
say Twitter, just just go withTwitter, it's easier.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Thank you, you're welcome.
I would encourage anyone who'sinterested in FHFA's ongoings to
follow Pulte on Twitter,because he tweets many times a
day often as he sometimes movesbetween activities, so it's an
interesting window into hisdaily routine over there.
He so far has said that he isgoing to be focusing right off
(03:25):
the bat on eliminating mortgagefraud and getting a handle on
fraud generally at the GSEs andat the agency.
He said that he's going toprioritize that over efforts to
potentially privatize the GSEs.
So conservatorship is not goingto be his top issue for now.
And on the theme of pushing onmortgage fraud and fraud at the
(03:48):
GSEs, one of the first thingshe's done out of the gate is to
kind of clear house a bit at theboards of Fannie Mae and
Freddie Mac.
On Monday and this is a breakfrom the last two FHFA directors
Pulte appointed himself tochair the boards of both Fannie
Mae and Freddie Mac and heremoved eight board members at
(04:10):
Fannie and six at Freddie.
He also added about threemembers to each of the boards.
One of those is Chris Stanleywho has some affiliations with
SpaceX, twitter and Doge.
So we can see right away theoverlay between Doge activities
and Pulte's leadership at FHFA.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Okay, so question on that.
So there's a lot of questions.
You know I'm a focus primarilyon you know what you first said.
You know and I'm a think backto you know various.
You know, I guess the prioradministration where you could
(05:09):
easily argue whether blog postsor I guess any administration
really are blog posts and tweetsconsidered policy or even
guidance right or guidelinesLike how is one to know if a
tweet is considered new policy?
Speaker 4 (05:29):
That is a great question and I think it's one
that we are seeing play outright now.
I think blog posts, the use ofblog posts as guidance, has been
controversial in recent yearsand it also is notably a fairly
easily reversed way of doingpolicy, which can be problematic
(05:54):
for regulated entities who,from day to day, may see blog
posts updated or removed orposted.
But the question of the rolethat tweets play, I think, is at
the forefront, and I'll justsay this very quickly.
But OMB, the Office ofManagement and Budget, earlier
this year issued a verywide-ranging memo that was then
(06:17):
revoked.
However, the White House presssecretary tweeted that the memo
was still in effect.
So there's active litigationright now on that issue that
relates to the role that tweetsmay or may not play.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Okay, so it's in a nutshell.
It almost seems like tweets arefair game, no matter what.
It's the wild, wild west, butyou almost have to step gently
(06:53):
and almost view them as thoughthey're going to eventually be
policy, that if it's tweeted orif it's in a blog, you have to
assume that eventually it'sgoing to be in play.
Is that safe to say, or am Ireading what you just said wrong
?
Speaker 4 (07:13):
I would say I think it's.
They are things that you verymuch want to be aware of in the
current environment, Alsobecause often we're seeing
policymakers preview what theyare going to do by a tweet
before it happens.
So I think there's a lot ofvalue in what these regulators
and other senior leaders areposting on Twitter and their
(07:35):
other social media platforms.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
OK now coming back to GSE reform, but I'm also going
to make this a double topicquestion GSE reform.
But I'm also going to make thisa double topic question.
So GSE reform and mortgagefraud, we'll say fraud in
housing.
This is not the first time Iheard that GSE reform is what
was almost like a grandstandtopic, that all we have to
(08:01):
reform the GSEs, get them out ofconservatorship.
That was a big conversation.
All they wanted to talk about,right, it was you and I have
talked about this.
You know, zach and I havetalked about this.
Lee and I have talked aboutthis and I have questioned okay,
why?
Now?
You know, et cetera, et cetera,et cetera.
And then all of a sudden, nowit's like is all of a sudden
(08:29):
mortgage fraud becoming thepriority?
I understand that when you knowvolumes down, mortgage fraud is
up.
I mean that's.
You know tale as old as time,song as old as rhyme.
You know that's.
You know tales old time, songas old as ryan.
You know that's.
That that's just always happens.
But polty seems to beapproaching this as though
(08:53):
there's actual fraud within thegse's.
Am I, am I reading that rightor am I reading that wrong?
Speaker 4 (09:02):
I would say you know, in the first hundred days of an
administration there is a lotof pressure on administration
officials to show productivityand show progress and I think,
something like mortgage fraud,it is easily presented to the
(09:27):
public in terms of you know, ifthere are metrics that can be
tracked over time, incidences ofreported fraud, things like
that, targeting issues that canbe easily measured and are easy
to understand, you see that alot early on, whereas something
like privatization, it's a muchmore complex, nuanced, long-term
(09:52):
play.
So I think that plays into itas well.
And at the same time that he'stalking about mortgage fraud,
he's also talking aboutimproving efficiency at the GSEs
and at the agency itself.
And if you are going to bedramatically scaling back
(10:12):
workforce, it's difficult toundertake very substantive,
complex initiatives at the sametime.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
So why not call it corruption instead of fraud?
Is is just corruption too harshfor word.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
I think I think it's a bit too harsh of a word.
I also think corruption andthis is just my personal view is
a word that we use more oftenwhen we talk about things that
involve the governmentgovernment corruption, things
like that.
I think fraud is used in manymore.
(10:53):
The word fraud is used in manymore circumstances, applies to
far more business arrangements,or at least that's the way I
hear it messaged.
More so I think it.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
There's another question of what resonates
versus what doesn't there okay,and you know, you know, because
obviously actions speak louderthan words.
You know going in and doing asweep and firing of board
members.
You said eight and six, Iremember correctly.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
That almost speaks to a level of Corruption that he
thought there may be corruptionshappening at JC.
I'm not, I don't know.
I'm not accusing, I'm notsaying, I'm not assuming, but
actions speak louder than wordsand you almost have to.
One would argue that that'swhat he's getting at, but, like
(11:46):
you said, it's a very harsh word.
It's probably a safer bet justto say fraud.
Anyways, I digress.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
I would also say on that point, I think the removal
of board members also wouldcould suggest that halty just
feels they, you know, wereinefficient at addressing the
issue or it was not.
It did not match on theirpriority list where it falls on
(12:13):
his priority list and so he feltthey needed to part ways.
But I I certainly could notspeak to his specific
motivations.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
No, no, not asking to all right.
And and just just to be clear,this is the same polty whose
family owns a building company,you know, a residential building
company, but also owns amortgage company.
Right, same polty, one of thesame, correct?
Yeah okay, so I just want tomake that clear, right?
Um, anyways, let's keep going.
(12:41):
So enough on fhfa, unless youhave something else you want to
add on FHFA.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
That was everything I had.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Okay, perfect, all right.
So who's next?
Who is next?
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Who is next?
That's a great question, Alsousually the question on Doge's
mind.
Seriously, Before they movedover to FHFA, Doge was over at
HUD and continues to make somewaves at HUD, I think.
Since the last policy versionof this podcast, Doge and HUD
(13:15):
have stood up a joint task forcefocused on, again, broadly
eliminating waste, fraud andabuse.
So we're seeing that word fraudpop up again across their
messaging Scott Turner, the HUDdirector, and Pulte I think
we'll see them working togetheror having some similar messaging
(13:36):
in some ways, particularlybecause Doge is looking into
both of their operations.
And so abuse, fraud, waste thoseare words I think we'll
continue to hear repeatedly overthe next few months, if not
through the end of the year.
Some of the cuts so far havebeen targeted towards their fair
(13:56):
housing initiatives.
So that's one area wherelitigation is pending right now
and litigation is something elsethat I think we're going to see
on so many fronts over the nextfew months and it can almost
feel impossible to keep up withall of the different challenges
that are going on and the TROsand the various court orders and
the judgments.
So if there is a particularprogram that anyone listening is
(14:21):
interested in, I wouldencourage folks to keep close
tabs on those over the comingmonths.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I mean, and so obviously you know, HUD was
established to support, you know, and I'm gonna use a very broad
term, support the housing needsof, you know, the low to
moderate income, you know,families, essentially, and again
broad term and a verygeneralization.
Does HUD come out of this, onthe other end, the same, or even
(14:54):
remotely the same, supportingthose housing initiatives of low
to moderate income families?
Speaker 4 (15:01):
I don't think that we will see its core mission shift
, but I do think we will see asignificant reduction in the
workforce that supports thoseinitiatives and, just given the
size of the agency, that has alot of ripple effects in terms
of the support that people canseek from the agency.
(15:23):
And we haven't seen yet thescope of exactly where they're
going to target.
But I think the theme will be asmaller, more streamlined HUD.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Okay, so you know, obviously it's going to impact
anything from, you know, fhfa,you know, you know you name it.
It has a very wide rangingripple effect throughout housing
To various grant programsacross the United States.
Well, I guess it's still verymuch TBD, right?
(16:00):
We just don't know yet untilreally the cards play out, right
.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Yes, I think this is a time of a lot of churn across
the federal government and thereare a lot of things that we
just don't know yet and that areplaying out almost on an
hour-by-hour basis for some ofthese agencies.
Really, Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Okay, I mean I don't know.
I mean it's I don't know.
And again, I've read a lot ofthe reports on HUD and I've read
a lot of articles and this isnot me saying it Some articles I
read saying that there had tobe change at HUD.
And again, I'm not saying this,but no one deserves to lose
(16:46):
their job.
I guess my concern isespecially as this but no one
deserves to lose their job.
I guess my concern isespecially as someone in the
credit union space and someonewho's focused on fulfilling our
mission of putting families inhomes.
If one less family doesn't getthat house, is that worth the
(17:09):
outcome?
That's what I don't understand,or that's what I don't know,
and that's what I'm reallyconcerned about.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
I think a lot of people feel that way, peter, and
anyone who's spent any time onCapitol Hill in the past few
weeks can tell you that everyphone in every office, on both
sides of the aisle, is ringingoff the hook because
constituents are concerned abouthow cuts will impact or have
impacted them theiropportunities, the programs that
(17:43):
they want to take advantage of.
So I think it's a question alot of people are asking.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I mean I read this op-ed in Housing Wire and it was
about HUD specifically and likethere was this mindset and this
mantra within HUD and amongsome HUD employees.
Again, I don't know if it'strue, but it was, you know, do
the bare minimum right.
(18:09):
And so on the flip side of thatcoin it's was that one less
family not getting that homeanyways.
But again, no one deserves tolose their home, no one deserves
to lose their job.
But it's our jobs as realestate professionals, as credit
(18:30):
and mortgage professionals tosupport families, support our
communities and as long as wecan come out of this and put as
many families in homes as wepossibly can, I think that's
that's our mission.
So it's horrible.
That's our mission.
So it's horrible.
It's scary in many ways becausewe don't know, but it's
(18:57):
scratching my head half the time.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
Half the time I read these articles I'm like what the
heck is going on?
Yes, it's a very dynamic time.
And I think there's almost anincredible amount of information
to try and parse through and Ithink you and your team do a
(19:24):
great job of distillinginformation for your members and
trying to keep your focus onthe things that really do impact
them and kind of fielding outthe the broader noise.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Thank you very much.
There's there's a running jokewithin my team that whenever
they have like a meeting,internal meeting, like there's
this running joke that everyonce in a while I'll pop into
their meetings.
And there's this idea like Icome in a meeting and it's like
this how can I screw this up?
And that's what Doge is like.
(19:59):
But yeah, hey, how can I messthis meeting up?
But yeah, anyways.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
I'm doubtful that that's how it plays out, but
I'll have to check with the withothers yeah, I mean, you know,
I have crazy ideas.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Uh, anyways, all right, who's next hud?
Okay, who's next?
Speaker 4 (20:18):
I will do a quick hit on ncua while we're talking
about agencies.
Something to flag for anyonelooking for some reading is that
the agency put out its annualreport just the other day and
that kind of goes through a lotof their recent, their
activities over the past year,and then it also touches on
(20:41):
where they kind of seethemselves going, looking
forward.
So Kyle Hopman is the firstaddition since he's become
chairman.
So he said and you pause me ifyou've heard these words before
today but he wants to focus onmaking NCUA's operations more
efficient, streamlining andeliminating outdated or overly
(21:04):
burdensome regulations,improving processes, clarifying
the examination program andtrying to make sure the
regulatory scheme is quote easyto navigate for current and
future credit unions.
So again, some similar verbiageto what we've heard before.
(21:24):
Not super specific, but aninteresting read.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
So I mean, what is it about efficiencies that this
administration seems to bebeating the drum about?
Speaker 4 (21:53):
I think it comes back partially to that.
The federal government is solarge and one could assume that
there are inefficiencies thatexist and in an effort to root
(22:14):
those out, I think the currentadministration and Elon Musk's
team are willing to go as far asthey can, and I think the
courts will tell them in manycases when they have gone too
far.
But I think it's an umbrellafor so many other things,
(22:40):
because when we talk aboutefficiency or when efficiency is
talked about these days, we'rethe the.
The scope of things that couldbe considered inefficient is so
broad.
So anytime I hear efficiency, Ialways think of it as kind of
the header on the page and thenI'm thinking, well, what
actually?
What are the bullet points?
What are we actually talkingabout?
If efficiency is the?
What actually?
What are the bullet points?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
what are we actually talking about?
If efficiency is the title,what are the chapters?
Okay, I mean, I mean, you knowmy change background, change
management background, you know,wants it to always improve,
right?
It's?
You know, once, even once youimprove a process, you you let
it play out and then you startfrom the beginning anyways, and
(23:23):
to kind of improve it once again.
Um, but in many ways it seemslike we're just throwing out
that buzzword.
Just to throw out that buzzword, yes, there's probably a lot of
redundancies and a lot ofinefficiencies, but in many ways
it kind of goes back to, youknow, one of the organizations I
(23:51):
worked for prior to joining.
You know the credit union spacework for prior to joining.
You know the credit union space.
You know they, they, they hadthis crazy idea of that.
They could fix the credit, the,the, the mortgage process and
redefine what the mortgageprocess was, and they ended up
going under because theyinvested all this money and
(24:13):
technology and manpower and youname it, and all they did was
just over-engineer it and itended up being their downfall
because they couldn't figure outhow to make it more efficient,
because in the end, the processwas the process.
(24:36):
For a reason it worked out bestfor the consumer, it worked out
best for the staff, it workedout best for the technology, you
name it.
That was the reason why theprocess was, and is it possible
that, in the end, some of thethings that are inefficient or
(24:57):
being viewed as inefficient, areactually the right thing to do?
Speaker 4 (25:04):
Yeah, of course, I think there's every possibility
that things that perhaps shouldnot be cut or scaled back will
be.
I think also there are twosides to every coin, so things
that are trimmed, some peoplewill celebrate and others will
raise the red flag and say, hey,this is going to be really
(25:25):
problematic.
I think your considerations arevery thoughtful and if you have
time on the side, you mightconsider phoning into the Doge
meetings once in a while andmaking those points to them,
because I think they're verywarranted.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I mean, it's just.
Has it gotten to that point yetwhere they've said I must throw
out the S word?
But I don't make this explicitoh heck, we shouldn't have fired
that person.
We kind of sort of needed themand you know they tried
(26:04):
backfilling that person.
I mean, has that point happenedyet?
Speaker 4 (26:08):
There have been instances I've heard at some
agencies where they have neededto call back people who were
initially either put onadministrative leave or handed
termination notices interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
You know, no, you know, you know we don't, but you
don't know, you don't know.
Um, all right, so ncua.
And by the way, when you saidreading, you meant you know
bedtime reading, put you tosleep type reading, type stuff,
right absolutely.
I think if that you know, youfind that calming power to you
okay, good, all right, umanything else, um that we have
(26:48):
to go over today I just wantedto quickly mention the executive
order that the president signedlast week on cdfis community
development financialinstitutions.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
So the order would be quite a significant shift in
the president's views on cdfis.
During trump 1.0, his firstterm, he signed a law that made
a significant multi-billiondollar investment in CDFIs
during the pandemic.
And CDFIs historically havebeen a bipartisan initiative On
(27:25):
Capitol Hill.
The chairman of both theBanking Committee and the
Financial Services Committeehave been supportive of CDFIs,
have been supportive of CDFIs.
There's been bipartisan concernwith the scaling back and
changes that the president isproposing.
And executive orders, it's worthreminding, in many cases they
(27:47):
direct agency action, so itforeshadows future activity as
opposed to being an immediatechange in policy.
There are, of course, manycircumstances where executive
orders do result in immediatechanges to policy, but things
that require agency rulemakingor agency actions take a little
bit longer to implement.
There was also an executiveorder last month that, as part
(28:10):
of a laundry list of ways thatthe president asked agencies to
reduce the size of the federalbureaucracy, directed the CFPB
to get rid of its credit unionadvisory council.
The CFPB did act on that andthey put a notice on the webpage
that says this has beendissolved.
The advisory council met abouttwice a year for maybe two hours
(28:34):
a session, so it's not anecessarily a huge loss in in
related activity, but I justwanted to flag that as well.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Well, thank you very much for that.
The CDFI thing is is is veryinteresting.
You know, on paper, I thinkit's it's going to be a much
(29:07):
larger number of impacted acumenmembers than what we actually
think.
I mean.
Just two years ago we had awhole session dedicated to
partnering with CDFIs andleveraging down payment
assistance programs throughCDFIs.
So I'm intrigued to see howthis plays out and how the large
(29:31):
scale impact to mortgageprograms the large scale impact
to mortgage programs so well.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
And on that point, Peter, I will say quickly I was
doing some research after I readthe executive order and the
Federal Reserve Bank of New York, in 2023, had done a survey of
CDFIs and at that point so late2023, about 65% of the total
assets across certified CDFIswere held by credit unions and
(29:58):
it looked like about late lastyear, somewhere between a third
and a fourth of the about 1500CDFIs were credit unions.
Just for a big, some bigpicture of statistics, that's,
that's I mean.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
If we think about it.
You know what last I mean.
I haven't looked at the 2024HMDA data, but when you look at
twenty, twenty three hundreddata, there are only about
thirteen hundred mortgagemortgage originating credit
unions.
So, that's essentially everysingle mortgage originating
credit union.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Yeah, and I don't think we're gonna see this go
quietly I think there'll be moreconcern from both sides okay,
well, before we wrap up anyfinal thoughts so, in the spirit
of march madness, I did havetwo fun facts about basketball
and the federal government, ifyou would indulge me.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I most certainly will .
Speaker 4 (30:57):
So only one US president played college
basketball, according to theNCAA Do you have any idea who
that might be Peter.
I have no idea.
It was Richard Nixon.
He played at Whittier Collegein California.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Okay, he played at Whittier College in.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
California.
Okay, he also played football,and the NCAA noted specifically
in their post that he neveractually made it to the field.
And then there's one currentmember of congressional
leadership who played collegebasketball, and that would be
senate majority leader John JohnThune, who played D2 basketball
(31:38):
at Biola University.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
That's awesome.
That is awesome Good.
Those are good, fun facts.
Thank you very much for those.
Thank you, that's awesome.
That's awesome.
Well, thank you very much foryour time today.
I always enjoy sitting down thechat with you and, as always,
we appreciate everything thatyou do and the rest of the
Brownstein team does for ourmembers and our community.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
Of course.
Thank you again for having me.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Of course, and to close out, thank you again to
Lone Vision for sponsoringtoday's episode and to all of
you.
We know your time is valuable.
Thank you again for tuning intothe latest episode of Acuma's
On Point Podcast.
We hope you enjoyed it.
Until next time.
Be well, my friends.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Thanks for listening.
We'll see you next time at theAcuma On Point Podcast.
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The views and opinions expressed in this
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The podcast discussionpresented is conversational in
nature and for generalinformation only.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hello and welcome to Atkinson Point Podcast, the
policy series where we focus onpolicy issues impacting the
credit union mortgage industry.
I'm your host, peter Benjamin.
Before we get to our episode,just a quick word from our
sponsor.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
This episode is being brought to you by Loan Vision.
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(01:06):
equipping your team with thetools needed to better serve
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And don't miss our monthlywebinar series, where we share
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Register today atwwwloanvisioncom under our
upcoming event speech.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Joining us today, as our resident expert is
Anne-Marie Conboy, PolicyAdvisor with Brownstein AM.
It's been a while.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I'm doing well.
Congress is in recess, doublerecess, for the first time this
year, which is very exciting forus here in Washington.
But more exciting is my returnto the podcast.
So thank you again for havingme.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
No, no, the pleasure is all ours.
You are a fan favorite, sothank you very much for being
here.
Excited to kind of break downthe topics today, and I think on
the docket is pretty muchessentially a agency round robin
.
So without further ado, let'sjust jump right in.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
So after you, please, great.
Well, yes, hopefully we havesomething for everyone today as
we hit on these various agencies, hopefully.
I wanted to start off with FHFAand just talk about the new
director over there, bill Pulte,who was confirmed on March 13th
.
He had a little bit ofbipartisan support coming out of
the Senate and he had notreally a rocky confirmation
(02:36):
hearing at all because he wasovershadowed there by the
presence of Jonathan McKernan,who is the nominee to lead the
CFPB.
But Pulte, since he took officelast Thursday, has been very,
very active on Twitter or X.
I have a hard time rememberingto say X, so forgive me if I
repeatedly say Twitter.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I won't, I won't, you know, say anything if you just
say Twitter, just just go withTwitter, it's easier.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Thank you, you're welcome.
I would encourage anyone who'sinterested in FHFA's ongoings to
follow Pulte on Twitter,because he tweets many times a
day often as he sometimes movesbetween activities, so it's an
interesting window into hisdaily routine over there.
He so far has said that he isgoing to be focusing right off
(03:25):
the bat on eliminating mortgagefraud and getting a handle on
fraud generally at the GSEs andat the agency.
He said that he's going toprioritize that over efforts to
potentially privatize the GSEs.
So conservatorship is not goingto be his top issue for now.
And on the theme of pushing onmortgage fraud and fraud at the
(03:48):
GSEs, one of the first thingshe's done out of the gate is to
kind of clear house a bit at theboards of Fannie Mae and
Freddie Mac.
On Monday and this is a breakfrom the last two FHFA directors
Pulte appointed himself tochair the boards of both Fannie
Mae and Freddie Mac and heremoved eight board members at
(04:10):
Fannie and six at Freddie.
He also added about threemembers to each of the boards.
One of those is Chris Stanleywho has some affiliations with
SpaceX, twitter and Doge.
So we can see right away theoverlay between Doge activities
and Pulte's leadership at FHFA.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Okay, so question on that.
So there's a lot of questions.
You know I'm a focus primarilyon you know what you first said.
You know and I'm a think backto you know various.
You know, I guess the prioradministration where you could
(05:09):
easily argue whether blog postsor I guess any administration
really are blog posts and tweetsconsidered policy or even
guidance right or guidelinesLike how is one to know if a
tweet is considered new policy?
Speaker 4 (05:29):
That is a great question and I think it's one
that we are seeing play outright now.
I think blog posts, the use ofblog posts as guidance, has been
controversial in recent yearsand it also is notably a fairly
easily reversed way of doingpolicy, which can be problematic
(05:54):
for regulated entities who,from day to day, may see blog
posts updated or removed orposted.
But the question of the rolethat tweets play, I think, is at
the forefront, and I'll justsay this very quickly.
But OMB, the Office ofManagement and Budget, earlier
this year issued a verywide-ranging memo that was then
(06:17):
revoked.
However, the White House presssecretary tweeted that the memo
was still in effect.
So there's active litigationright now on that issue that
relates to the role that tweetsmay or may not play.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Okay, so it's in a nutshell.
It almost seems like tweets arefair game, no matter what.
It's the wild, wild west, butyou almost have to step gently
(06:53):
and almost view them as thoughthey're going to eventually be
policy, that if it's tweeted orif it's in a blog, you have to
assume that eventually it'sgoing to be in play.
Is that safe to say, or am Ireading what you just said wrong
?
Speaker 4 (07:13):
I would say I think it's.
They are things that you verymuch want to be aware of in the
current environment, Alsobecause often we're seeing
policymakers preview what theyare going to do by a tweet
before it happens.
So I think there's a lot ofvalue in what these regulators
and other senior leaders areposting on Twitter and their
(07:35):
other social media platforms.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
OK now coming back to GSE reform, but I'm also going
to make this a double topicquestion GSE reform.
But I'm also going to make thisa double topic question.
So GSE reform and mortgagefraud, we'll say fraud in
housing.
This is not the first time Iheard that GSE reform is what
was almost like a grandstandtopic, that all we have to
(08:01):
reform the GSEs, get them out ofconservatorship.
That was a big conversation.
All they wanted to talk about,right, it was you and I have
talked about this.
You know, zach and I havetalked about this.
Lee and I have talked aboutthis and I have questioned okay,
why?
Now?
You know, et cetera, et cetera,et cetera.
And then all of a sudden, nowit's like is all of a sudden
(08:29):
mortgage fraud becoming thepriority?
I understand that when you knowvolumes down, mortgage fraud is
up.
I mean that's.
You know tale as old as time,song as old as rhyme.
You know that's.
You know tales old time, songas old as ryan.
You know that's.
That that's just always happens.
But polty seems to beapproaching this as though
(08:53):
there's actual fraud within thegse's.
Am I, am I reading that rightor am I reading that wrong?
Speaker 4 (09:02):
I would say you know, in the first hundred days of an
administration there is a lotof pressure on administration
officials to show productivityand show progress and I think,
something like mortgage fraud,it is easily presented to the
(09:27):
public in terms of you know, ifthere are metrics that can be
tracked over time, incidences ofreported fraud, things like
that, targeting issues that canbe easily measured and are easy
to understand, you see that alot early on, whereas something
like privatization, it's a muchmore complex, nuanced, long-term
(09:52):
play.
So I think that plays into itas well.
And at the same time that he'stalking about mortgage fraud,
he's also talking aboutimproving efficiency at the GSEs
and at the agency itself.
And if you are going to bedramatically scaling back
(10:12):
workforce, it's difficult toundertake very substantive,
complex initiatives at the sametime.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
So why not call it corruption instead of fraud?
Is is just corruption too harshfor word.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
I think I think it's a bit too harsh of a word.
I also think corruption andthis is just my personal view is
a word that we use more oftenwhen we talk about things that
involve the governmentgovernment corruption, things
like that.
I think fraud is used in manymore.
(10:53):
The word fraud is used in manymore circumstances, applies to
far more business arrangements,or at least that's the way I
hear it messaged.
More so I think it.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
There's another question of what resonates
versus what doesn't there okay,and you know, you know, because
obviously actions speak louderthan words.
You know going in and doing asweep and firing of board
members.
You said eight and six, Iremember correctly.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
That almost speaks to a level of Corruption that he
thought there may be corruptionshappening at JC.
I'm not, I don't know.
I'm not accusing, I'm notsaying, I'm not assuming, but
actions speak louder than wordsand you almost have to.
One would argue that that'swhat he's getting at, but, like
(11:46):
you said, it's a very harsh word.
It's probably a safer bet justto say fraud.
Anyways, I digress.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
I would also say on that point, I think the removal
of board members also wouldcould suggest that halty just
feels they, you know, wereinefficient at addressing the
issue or it was not.
It did not match on theirpriority list where it falls on
(12:13):
his priority list and so he feltthey needed to part ways.
But I I certainly could notspeak to his specific
motivations.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
No, no, not asking to all right.
And and just just to be clear,this is the same polty whose
family owns a building company,you know, a residential building
company, but also owns amortgage company.
Right, same polty, one of thesame, correct?
Yeah okay, so I just want tomake that clear, right?
Um, anyways, let's keep going.
(12:41):
So enough on fhfa, unless youhave something else you want to
add on FHFA.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
That was everything I had.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Okay, perfect, all right.
So who's next?
Who is next?
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Who is next?
That's a great question, Alsousually the question on Doge's
mind.
Seriously, Before they movedover to FHFA, Doge was over at
HUD and continues to make somewaves at HUD, I think.
Since the last policy versionof this podcast, Doge and HUD
(13:15):
have stood up a joint task forcefocused on, again, broadly
eliminating waste, fraud andabuse.
So we're seeing that word fraudpop up again across their
messaging Scott Turner, the HUDdirector, and Pulte I think
we'll see them working togetheror having some similar messaging
(13:36):
in some ways, particularlybecause Doge is looking into
both of their operations.
And so abuse, fraud, waste thoseare words I think we'll
continue to hear repeatedly overthe next few months, if not
through the end of the year.
Some of the cuts so far havebeen targeted towards their fair
(13:56):
housing initiatives.
So that's one area wherelitigation is pending right now
and litigation is something elsethat I think we're going to see
on so many fronts over the nextfew months and it can almost
feel impossible to keep up withall of the different challenges
that are going on and the TROsand the various court orders and
the judgments.
So if there is a particularprogram that anyone listening is
(14:21):
interested in, I wouldencourage folks to keep close
tabs on those over the comingmonths.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I mean, and so obviously you know, HUD was
established to support, you know, and I'm gonna use a very broad
term, support the housing needsof, you know, the low to
moderate income, you know,families, essentially, and again
broad term and a verygeneralization.
Does HUD come out of this, onthe other end, the same, or even
(14:54):
remotely the same, supportingthose housing initiatives of low
to moderate income families?
Speaker 4 (15:01):
I don't think that we will see its core mission shift
, but I do think we will see asignificant reduction in the
workforce that supports thoseinitiatives and, just given the
size of the agency, that has alot of ripple effects in terms
of the support that people canseek from the agency.
(15:23):
And we haven't seen yet thescope of exactly where they're
going to target.
But I think the theme will be asmaller, more streamlined HUD.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Okay, so you know, obviously it's going to impact
anything from, you know, fhfa,you know, you know you name it.
It has a very wide rangingripple effect throughout housing
To various grant programsacross the United States.
Well, I guess it's still verymuch TBD, right?
(16:00):
We just don't know yet untilreally the cards play out, right
.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Yes, I think this is a time of a lot of churn across
the federal government and thereare a lot of things that we
just don't know yet and that areplaying out almost on an
hour-by-hour basis for some ofthese agencies.
Really, Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Okay, I mean I don't know.
I mean it's I don't know.
And again, I've read a lot ofthe reports on HUD and I've read
a lot of articles and this isnot me saying it Some articles I
read saying that there had tobe change at HUD.
And again, I'm not saying this,but no one deserves to lose
(16:46):
their job.
I guess my concern isespecially as this but no one
deserves to lose their job.
I guess my concern isespecially as someone in the
credit union space and someonewho's focused on fulfilling our
mission of putting families inhomes.
If one less family doesn't getthat house, is that worth the
(17:09):
outcome?
That's what I don't understand,or that's what I don't know,
and that's what I'm reallyconcerned about.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
I think a lot of people feel that way, peter, and
anyone who's spent any time onCapitol Hill in the past few
weeks can tell you that everyphone in every office, on both
sides of the aisle, is ringingoff the hook because
constituents are concerned abouthow cuts will impact or have
impacted them theiropportunities, the programs that
(17:43):
they want to take advantage of.
So I think it's a question alot of people are asking.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I mean I read this op-ed in Housing Wire and it was
about HUD specifically and likethere was this mindset and this
mantra within HUD and amongsome HUD employees.
Again, I don't know if it'strue, but it was, you know, do
the bare minimum right.
(18:09):
And so on the flip side of thatcoin it's was that one less
family not getting that homeanyways.
But again, no one deserves tolose their home, no one deserves
to lose their job.
But it's our jobs as realestate professionals, as credit
(18:30):
and mortgage professionals tosupport families, support our
communities and as long as wecan come out of this and put as
many families in homes as wepossibly can, I think that's
that's our mission.
So it's horrible.
That's our mission.
So it's horrible.
It's scary in many ways becausewe don't know, but it's
(18:57):
scratching my head half the time.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
Half the time I read these articles I'm like what the
heck is going on?
Yes, it's a very dynamic time.
And I think there's almost anincredible amount of information
to try and parse through and Ithink you and your team do a
(19:24):
great job of distillinginformation for your members and
trying to keep your focus onthe things that really do impact
them and kind of fielding outthe the broader noise.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Thank you very much.
There's there's a running jokewithin my team that whenever
they have like a meeting,internal meeting, like there's
this running joke that everyonce in a while I'll pop into
their meetings.
And there's this idea like Icome in a meeting and it's like
this how can I screw this up?
And that's what Doge is like.
(19:59):
But yeah, hey, how can I messthis meeting up?
But yeah, anyways.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
I'm doubtful that that's how it plays out, but
I'll have to check with the withothers yeah, I mean, you know,
I have crazy ideas.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Uh, anyways, all right, who's next hud?
Okay, who's next?
Speaker 4 (20:18):
I will do a quick hit on ncua while we're talking
about agencies.
Something to flag for anyonelooking for some reading is that
the agency put out its annualreport just the other day and
that kind of goes through a lotof their recent, their
activities over the past year,and then it also touches on
(20:41):
where they kind of seethemselves going, looking
forward.
So Kyle Hopman is the firstaddition since he's become
chairman.
So he said and you pause me ifyou've heard these words before
today but he wants to focus onmaking NCUA's operations more
efficient, streamlining andeliminating outdated or overly
(21:04):
burdensome regulations,improving processes, clarifying
the examination program andtrying to make sure the
regulatory scheme is quote easyto navigate for current and
future credit unions.
So again, some similar verbiageto what we've heard before.
(21:24):
Not super specific, but aninteresting read.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
So I mean, what is it about efficiencies that this
administration seems to bebeating the drum about?
Speaker 4 (21:53):
I think it comes back partially to that.
The federal government is solarge and one could assume that
there are inefficiencies thatexist and in an effort to root
(22:14):
those out, I think the currentadministration and Elon Musk's
team are willing to go as far asthey can, and I think the
courts will tell them in manycases when they have gone too
far.
But I think it's an umbrellafor so many other things,
(22:40):
because when we talk aboutefficiency or when efficiency is
talked about these days, we'rethe the.
The scope of things that couldbe considered inefficient is so
broad.
So anytime I hear efficiency, Ialways think of it as kind of
the header on the page and thenI'm thinking, well, what
actually?
What are the bullet points?
What are we actually talkingabout?
If efficiency is the?
What actually?
What are the bullet points?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
what are we actually talking about?
If efficiency is the title,what are the chapters?
Okay, I mean, I mean, you knowmy change background, change
management background, you know,wants it to always improve,
right?
It's?
You know, once, even once youimprove a process, you you let
it play out and then you startfrom the beginning anyways, and
(23:23):
to kind of improve it once again.
Um, but in many ways it seemslike we're just throwing out
that buzzword.
Just to throw out that buzzword, yes, there's probably a lot of
redundancies and a lot ofinefficiencies, but in many ways
it kind of goes back to, youknow, one of the organizations I
(23:51):
worked for prior to joining.
You know the credit union spacework for prior to joining.
You know the credit union space.
You know they, they, they hadthis crazy idea of that.
They could fix the credit, the,the, the mortgage process and
redefine what the mortgageprocess was, and they ended up
going under because theyinvested all this money and
(24:13):
technology and manpower and youname it, and all they did was
just over-engineer it and itended up being their downfall
because they couldn't figure outhow to make it more efficient,
because in the end, the processwas the process.
(24:36):
For a reason it worked out bestfor the consumer, it worked out
best for the staff, it workedout best for the technology, you
name it.
That was the reason why theprocess was, and is it possible
that, in the end, some of thethings that are inefficient or
(24:57):
being viewed as inefficient, areactually the right thing to do?
Speaker 4 (25:04):
Yeah, of course, I think there's every possibility
that things that perhaps shouldnot be cut or scaled back will
be.
I think also there are twosides to every coin, so things
that are trimmed, some peoplewill celebrate and others will
raise the red flag and say, hey,this is going to be really
(25:25):
problematic.
I think your considerations arevery thoughtful and if you have
time on the side, you mightconsider phoning into the Doge
meetings once in a while andmaking those points to them,
because I think they're verywarranted.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I mean, it's just.
Has it gotten to that point yetwhere they've said I must throw
out the S word?
But I don't make this explicitoh heck, we shouldn't have fired
that person.
We kind of sort of needed themand you know they tried
(26:04):
backfilling that person.
I mean, has that point happenedyet?
Speaker 4 (26:08):
There have been instances I've heard at some
agencies where they have neededto call back people who were
initially either put onadministrative leave or handed
termination notices interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
You know, no, you know, you know we don't, but you
don't know, you don't know.
Um, all right, so ncua.
And by the way, when you saidreading, you meant you know
bedtime reading, put you tosleep type reading, type stuff,
right absolutely.
I think if that you know, youfind that calming power to you
okay, good, all right, umanything else, um that we have
(26:48):
to go over today I just wantedto quickly mention the executive
order that the president signedlast week on cdfis community
development financialinstitutions.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
So the order would be quite a significant shift in
the president's views on cdfis.
During trump 1.0, his firstterm, he signed a law that made
a significant multi-billiondollar investment in CDFIs
during the pandemic.
And CDFIs historically havebeen a bipartisan initiative On
(27:25):
Capitol Hill.
The chairman of both theBanking Committee and the
Financial Services Committeehave been supportive of CDFIs,
have been supportive of CDFIs.
There's been bipartisan concernwith the scaling back and
changes that the president isproposing.
And executive orders, it's worthreminding, in many cases they
(27:47):
direct agency action, so itforeshadows future activity as
opposed to being an immediatechange in policy.
There are, of course, manycircumstances where executive
orders do result in immediatechanges to policy, but things
that require agency rulemakingor agency actions take a little
bit longer to implement.
There was also an executiveorder last month that, as part
(28:10):
of a laundry list of ways thatthe president asked agencies to
reduce the size of the federalbureaucracy, directed the CFPB
to get rid of its credit unionadvisory council.
The CFPB did act on that andthey put a notice on the webpage
that says this has beendissolved.
The advisory council met abouttwice a year for maybe two hours
(28:34):
a session, so it's not anecessarily a huge loss in in
related activity, but I justwanted to flag that as well.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Well, thank you very much for that.
The CDFI thing is is is veryinteresting.
You know, on paper, I thinkit's it's going to be a much
(29:07):
larger number of impacted acumenmembers than what we actually
think.
I mean.
Just two years ago we had awhole session dedicated to
partnering with CDFIs andleveraging down payment
assistance programs throughCDFIs.
So I'm intrigued to see howthis plays out and how the large
(29:31):
scale impact to mortgageprograms the large scale impact
to mortgage programs so well.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
And on that point, Peter, I will say quickly I was
doing some research after I readthe executive order and the
Federal Reserve Bank of New York, in 2023, had done a survey of
CDFIs and at that point so late2023, about 65% of the total
assets across certified CDFIswere held by credit unions and
(29:58):
it looked like about late lastyear, somewhere between a third
and a fourth of the about 1500CDFIs were credit unions.
Just for a big, some bigpicture of statistics, that's,
that's I mean.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
If we think about it.
You know what last I mean.
I haven't looked at the 2024HMDA data, but when you look at
twenty, twenty three hundreddata, there are only about
thirteen hundred mortgagemortgage originating credit
unions.
So, that's essentially everysingle mortgage originating
credit union.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Yeah, and I don't think we're gonna see this go
quietly I think there'll be moreconcern from both sides okay,
well, before we wrap up anyfinal thoughts so, in the spirit
of march madness, I did havetwo fun facts about basketball
and the federal government, ifyou would indulge me.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I most certainly will .
Speaker 4 (30:57):
So only one US president played college
basketball, according to theNCAA Do you have any idea who
that might be Peter.
I have no idea.
It was Richard Nixon.
He played at Whittier Collegein California.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Okay, he played at Whittier College in.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
California.
Okay, he also played football,and the NCAA noted specifically
in their post that he neveractually made it to the field.
And then there's one currentmember of congressional
leadership who played collegebasketball, and that would be
senate majority leader John JohnThune, who played D2 basketball
(31:38):
at Biola University.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
That's awesome.
That is awesome Good.
Those are good, fun facts.
Thank you very much for those.
Thank you, that's awesome.
That's awesome.
Well, thank you very much foryour time today.
I always enjoy sitting down thechat with you and, as always,
we appreciate everything thatyou do and the rest of the
Brownstein team does for ourmembers and our community.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
Of course.
Thank you again for having me.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Of course, and to close out, thank you again to
Lone Vision for sponsoringtoday's episode and to all of
you.
We know your time is valuable.
Thank you again for tuning intothe latest episode of Acuma's
On Point Podcast.
We hope you enjoyed it.
Until next time.
Be well, my friends.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Thanks for listening.
We'll see you next time at theAcuma On Point Podcast.
If not already, be sure tosubscribe and give us a
five-star rating For more greatepisodes and information.
Be sure to visit us online atacumaorg and to get the latest
updates.
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