November 7, 2024 • 39 mins
As we look at the future of Israel education, it's just as critical to look back and reflect on how we as educators have succeeded and could have improved in this holy work.
In this pivotal and hard-hitting Adapting episode on laying out the vision of Israel education, David Bryfman and Dr. Zohar Raviv create the space to look inward, encouraging educators to be self-critical and self-reflective. When it comes to the biggest challenges and how Israel education can improve, Raviv has opinions on this revolutionary moment in the evolution of the Jewish people. For those who care about the fate of Jewish pride, you won't want to miss this episode.
This episode was produced by Dina Nusnbaum and Miranda Lapides. The show’s executive producers are David Bryfman, Karen Cummins, and Nessa Liben.
This episode was engineered and edited by Nathan J. Vaughan of NJV Media.
If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a 5-star rating and review, or even better, share it with a friend. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and be the first to know when new episodes are released. To learn more about The Jewish Education Project visit jewishedproject.org where you can find links to our Jewish Educator Portal and learn more about our mission, history, and staff. We are a proud partner of UJA-Federation of New York.
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David Bryfman (00:00):
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November 25Hi everybody. We are recording
today's episode of adapting onOctober 31 2024 and I'm having a
conversation with Dr Zohar Ravivabout the future of Jewish and
Israel education in a year afterOctober 7. In a post October 7
(00:46):
world, so to speak, one of thethemes that I wanted to explore
with Zohar, and we'll be doingso with other guests moving into
other episodes, is how do wetreat October 7 as a new turning
point, a new page in Jewisheducation. Not that the issues
that we spoke about might nothave existed beforehand, but
October 7 offers us theopportunity to really start
(01:06):
afresh. But I don't want to saycompletely start afresh. I want
to say double down on what wewere doing really well, but also
to reconsider some aspects ofour Jewish and Israel education,
because the reality now haschanged substantially enough to
warrant us to do so in order toget there. This episode allows
Zohar to take both aprofessional and a personal look
(01:26):
at where he's done really,really well and where he's also
has his challenges. And I thinkthat's one of the key messages
for all Jewish educators that weneed to be able to take stock of
both our successes and also ourpitfalls in order to help create
this new reality. Thank you, asalways, for listening today, and
I am sure, I am absolutely sure,that you will enjoy today's
episode of adapting as much as Idid recording it. This is
(01:48):
adapting the future of Jewisheducation, a podcast from the
Jewish education project wherewe explore the big questions,
challenges and successes thatdefine Jewish education. I'm
David breifman.
Dr Zohar Raviv is currentlyserving as the International
(02:10):
vice president of educationalstrategy for Taglit birthright,
Israel. Zohar, thank you so muchfor joining us on adapting
today.
Unknown (02:16):
Hi, David. Very good to be with you as always.
David Bryfman (02:19):
So you and I have met up a few times since October
7. We've had severalconversations, but the last time
you appeared on a webinar withus, it was really in the weeks
directly after October 7. And Idon't know how much you even
remember from that recording,but at that particular point in
time, I think you couldcategorize your expressions as
(02:39):
somewhere between grief andshock and a real sadness, and
understandably so, you wereliving through so much turmoil
and terror at the time, but talkto us a bit about what your
journey has been like since thattime and where you are today.
Unknown (02:54):
Well, yes, David, I remember very vividly the time
that we met, a few weeks afterthat dreadful moment, and
indeed, you describe itaccurately at first, like
everybody else, the shock, thebewilderment, the anchor, the
angst, trepidation, all of theseemotions pretty much took over.
(03:14):
But I think that quite soonafterwards, the educators had
kicked in, and I startedthinking on on a different
level, understanding that thatif we want to continue and do
our work and fulfill our mandateas educators, we need to be able
to look beyond, beyond the site,and start have a vision. And in
(03:37):
that respect, there are fivevery, very brief things that
governed my journey since thatmoment, the first being that I
feel, and I still very stronglyfeel, that we are at what I call
a revolutionary moment in theevolution of the Jewish people.
The second point is that theonly thing that I can see that
is greater than this calamity isthe educational potential in its
(04:00):
wake. The third point is thatwhile our shared past is a fact,
our shared future is a choice,and I believe that the mandate
of education is to help peoplemake the choices that lead them
to become more engaged, moreinformed, more involved, more
passionate members of the Jewishpeople. The fourth point is
(04:22):
about leadership in and ofitself, which I believe cannot
go hand in hand with despair.
And the fifth point is that weare all in this together. So
David Bryfman (04:31):
let's use this conversation to go into a few of
those things. And let's startoff with a word that you didn't
use, but it's one that we aseducators like to use a lot, and
that is optimism. And I think weboth agree that a purpose, if
not. You know, the mandate ofall educators is to be
optimistic if you don't thinkyou can create a better future.
And I'm not sure really whatpoint there is to be an
educator, but in the moments ofdespair, it's difficult, and I
(04:53):
imagine that you're struggledthrough in the last year to
always remain optimistic. So howdo you deal with both the
reality? And also your missionand mandate as an educator,
Unknown (05:02):
that's an excellent question. And I think that one
of the first things that thatthat informed my approach was
this distinction that you and Ihave discussed before, that I
make between sight and visionand the site is obviously very,
very difficult, but I believethat sites, by definition elicit
(05:22):
a reaction, and reactions bydefinition are tactical, whereas
visions are proactive and theyare strategic. And my goal as an
educator is to look at it from astrategic standpoint, and from a
strategic standpoint, I willtake what you said even a step
further. Despair is a luxury wecannot afford. So for me,
optimism is intrinsic to theeducational mandate, and I
(05:48):
refuse to see anything butoptimism as the call to action
that propels my engagement witheducation in general and with
Jewish and Israel education inparticular. Perhaps
David Bryfman (05:59):
it's worth reflecting on probably one of
the disagreements or thearguments that not that you and
I had, but the you and I werewitness to and part of in the
immediacy after October 7, Ithink that's that's very
illustrative and helpful, andthat was an educational approach
which both of us have held formany years, that experiential
education, informal education,allows learners to reach their
(06:20):
own conclusions in a in a givenlearning environment, and that
the good education is theopposite of indoctrination in
many, many ways the listenerscan't see. But so far, Zohar is
still nodding. And then we hadthis, we had this big
disagreement, not that you and Ihad the disagreement. We were
witness to a disagreementbetween what it's like to allow
people to reach their ownconclusions, and also for
(06:43):
education to hold certain moraltruths or to hold certain moral
elements or aspects of adiscourse as undisputable and
not up for discussion. Can youreflect a bit about that time
and the and the discussions thatwere going on internally and
maybe even externally for you atthat time? Yes,
Unknown (07:01):
of course, you know this, and many others, that in
the immediate aftermath ofOctober 7 in Israel and October
8 in North America and otherparts of the Western world, one
of the things that I said very,very clearly that we need to
uphold moral clarity, and thatterm moral clarity did not
necessarily brush everybody thesame way. And today, more than a
(07:26):
year after October 7, I upholdthis approach even stronger. And
I've written about it, Idiscussed it, I lecture about
it. I do believe that part andparcel of education is creating
a clear distinction between whatfalls under right versus left
and what falls under rightversus wrong. And whereas both
(07:48):
you and I and every other solideducator, in my opinion, should
applaud the application ofcontext and complexity, there
are certain things that have nocomplex and no complexity
whatsoever. And you witnessed megetting into bitter arguments
with notable educators on thisissue, which were valid and
(08:09):
important arguments, but I stillmaintain that what happened on
October 7 is a crime againsthumanity, and it should be held
as such, and that we aseducators should uphold a very
clear moral standard, which, bythe way, does not apply only to
Jews. For sure, we're talkingabout crimes against humanity,
not crimes against Jews, andthat is a burden that educators
(08:32):
must uphold very strongly as tothe first part of your question
about people having the right toform their own opinions, of
course, which is obviously partand parcel of solid education. I
do believe that the mandate ofeducation, and we talked about
this before, does not lie withwhat people think, which is none
of our business, but with howpeople think. And I think that
(08:53):
the one of the greatestchallenges that social discourse
in the western world faces todayis that more and more people are
losing their ability to thinkintelligently, responsibly,
humbly, reflectively on a hostof issues, and I think that
that's what education shouldfocus on, giving people tools to
think responsibly about whateverissue that bothers them. So
David Bryfman (09:16):
I don't want to suggest that this is mutually
exclusive, but there will besituations, especially I imagine
in your role with birthrightIsrael, that a young person, a
young adult, will come onto abirthright program and will have
views which get close toblurring that moral clarity for
you, or they'll have opinionswhich you might find very
difficult to deal with on amoral level. So I want to make
(09:37):
the distinction here betweenyour statement about the
educators role to uphold moralclarity, and then your love of
the individual learner,regardless of what their
viewpoints might be. So let'sput it into action. A young
person comes on a birthrightIsrael program and challenges
you with some things which youthink are morally clear, but for
them it's not as clear. How doyou as an educator have that
(09:57):
conversation?
Unknown (09:59):
First of all. It is the ability to have that
conversation, absolutely andsecond, David, I think that in
many cases, people are veryoccupied with the application of
what is known in our field assafe spaces for discussion. I
add to that requirement of asafe space that allows each
person to voice their opinion astheir unalienable right. I also
(10:23):
add the need for a brave space,and a brave space is the ability
to introduce to our learners andto ourselves that a solid dialog
can only happen if someone feelssecure to voice their opinions,
but also has the moral integrityand maturity and willingness to
(10:45):
become a resilient listener.
That means someone who remainsaround the table even when they
hear voices radically differentthan their own, rather than
intuitively cancel that noiseout. And I cannot teach people
how to do this without being arole model of doing it myself.
So in fact, if a student thesort of which you described,
(11:07):
comes to me, I will welcome sucha conversation and then start
unpacking what they're saying ina manner that will not
necessarily resolve thatconundrum, but allow us to find
a shared platform to engage in adialog without necessarily
agreeing on everything.
David Bryfman (11:26):
This is like so interesting in so many ways, and
I think October 7 has raised thestakes on this particular
conversation. But you and I,both being students of informal
education and students of BarryHassan and so many others, we're
very familiar with the informaleducational framework, where the
educator, the Madrid thecounselor, basically gives
(11:46):
positive reinforcement to everyresponse that a young person
gives, no matter how ridiculousit might actually have been. The
experiential education for manyyears, was motivated by the
desire just to acknowledge andto affirm every single learner.
And I can remember even myselflike, Oh, thank you. That was a
good answer, and in the back ofmy mind, saying like that was
real, not true, like you justmade that up, but we fell into
(12:07):
that trap often as educators,just affirming everything that
was said. And I think whatyou're saying here is yes, on
one hand, maintaining, you know,the respect and dignity of all
learners in a safe and a bravespace is important. But actually
there's something far moreimportant. The stakes are much
higher than just the self esteemof every individual learner.
Unknown (12:23):
Absolutely David, and it goes far beyond what you just
described right now in the inthe last minute, because I think
that this tendency of affirmingevery word that comes out of any
learner's mouth is exactly whatcreated eventually echo chambers
of consent, which obviously leadto not only intellectual
(12:46):
redundancy and mediocrity, butalso actually pull the pull the
plug out of any ability to haveintelligent, probing, reflective
discussion about any issue. AndI believe, I strongly believe,
that students actually wouldlike to be challenged far more
than they would like just to beaffirmed if they really want to
(13:09):
learn something. And I that iswhy, when I have discussions of
this sort, with with students orwith tour educators, who later
on address students, I tellthem, try to encourage yourself
and others to actually seeconversations with those who
disagree with you, because youmay learn and sharpen your
intellectual faculties fargreater than having discussions
(13:31):
with those who are already onyour side. Preaching to the
choir is not exactly the way togain wisdom, and that's
something that is very much partof my pedagogy, and the pedagogy
also that is applied onbirthright and other
organizations as well. That's
David Bryfman (13:45):
a major critique against, I think, education in
the western world in general,where it's been heading for the
last few decades. But let'sapply it to Jewish education, or
to Israel educationspecifically. Now is what you're
suggesting. Is actually apathway that we've been going on
for many years. Wasn't October7, which revealed all of that to
you. This was present wellbefore October 7 when it comes
(14:06):
to Israel and Jewish education,absolutely.
Unknown (14:08):
And you know this, David, from previous
conversations we held, Iremember you sitting in a room
in front of me and asking a hostof senior educators what has
changed and what has notchanged. And for me, a lot
changed, but it changed in termsof amplifying undercurrents who
had existed there 10 and 20years ago. So a lot of the
(14:29):
things that you and I arediscussing right now have
actually no direct connection toOctober 7, albeit October 7
brought them to the surface in avery persuasive manner. And
David Bryfman (14:39):
perhaps October 7 was so traumatic that it allows
us to confront some of thesechallenges in ways that we
weren't able to do before,because in way, it almost ripped
off the band aid of many ofthese things. And now maybe
we're able to explore theseissues further, and let's see if
we can go there. So if I was toask you, Zohar, what do you
think is the. Biggest problemfacing Israel education today.
(15:03):
What would you surmise is thenumber one challenge facing the
field today? And we can get intoan argument, is it a field or
isn't a field? Let's leave thatfor another, another time. But
the biggest challenge right nowfor Jewish and Israel education,
and I've conflated the two, youmight not conflate the two, but
what's the biggest challengesyou see it today? Um,
Unknown (15:20):
there are a number, but I think that if you ask me to
choose one right now, to takeadvantage of the opportunity of
this, of this podcast, I wouldsay that reclaiming the
narratives of Israel and Zionismand reclaiming it in a non
apologetic a significant way,readdressing Israel, the State
(15:40):
of Israel and Zionism in what Ibelieve is the appropriate
context, in creating a platformof intelligent, reflective,
critical discussion about whatthe state of Israel is and what
is the Zionist movement, namely,the State of Israel in the
context of the Land of Israeland the Zionist movement in the
context of the Zionist idea, orthe Zionist value statement.
(16:02):
This is a great challenge. Andthe second challenge is the
great disparity that I findbetween the multi layered
reality of Israel and theoftentimes single layered
perception of Israel, and thatis pretty much the landscape in
which people like you and Ioperate, we aim to mitigate the
(16:24):
gap between what Israel is andwhat people see Israel based on
social media, other mediaplatforms, sound bites
headlines, which is very, very,very myopic, very, very single
dimensional in nature, and doesnot allow our participants or
our potential audience to fullygrapple with Israel in all of
(16:47):
its what I call splendidimperfections. And the last
thing I would say is that weneed to stop treating Israel or
judging Israel or criticizingIsrael as if it aspires to be an
ideal state. And I've said itfor many, many years, Israel
never aspired to be an idealstate, but rather it aspires to
be a state of ideals. And oncewe unpack those ideals and we
(17:09):
start criticizing Israel, we canactually affect positive change
in the conversation aboutIsrael, in the conversation of
Jewish peoplehood, both betweeneducators and between our
students, but putting Israel onan undeserving pedestal, as it
were, is a disservice not onlyto our students and to
ourselves, but also to Israel,and in that respect, I would go
(17:32):
for a much more realisticapproach to the state and to its
evolution.
David Bryfman (17:38):
I want to ask you about several of these things,
but I want to start with thesecond one first and ask you, I
know that you Let's challenge itin terms of saying it's obvious
that the main way most of ouryoung adults and teens learn
about Israel is through socialmedia and news, which is
dominated by reflecting militaryactions and government policies,
(17:58):
which you and I know at thatlevel can be confronting for our
youth of today, especially inthe western democracies in which
we live. So what you're sayingis true, and it also
acknowledges that there's areality that we're dealing with.
And I think in some ways whatyou're talking about with at
least your second point isthere's often a disconnect
between what we aspire to aseducators and what we know to be
(18:19):
the truth or the reality of ouryoung people today, and somehow
we're trying to bridge those twothings. But wow, it's a it's an
ambitious task to think thatJewish education is powerful
enough to fight against theforces of social media. But in
some ways, that's what you'resuggesting.
Unknown (18:33):
It is ambitious. But I will say this, David, I
wholeheartedly believe thateducation in general, or at
least what I would render solideducation in general, and
definitely Jewish and Israel,education is becoming a counter
cultural endeavor, and that weneed, with great intentionality
and purpose, work against thezeitgeist, which leads to what I
(18:57):
call junk Food for Thought, thepresentation of very, very
mediocre and conflictinginformation, lack of knowledge,
willed, ignorance, demagogy,manipulation and so on and so
forth. The educator today mustmake a conscious decision to go
against culture and not with it.
David Bryfman (19:16):
Is Zionism cultural, or counter cultural
for the Jewish people,
Unknown (19:20):
Zionism the way it is perceived today by many, and the
critique they have of it is verymuch going hand in hand with the
culture Zionism, the way I seeit, and what I believe is the
context which needs to bereintroduced is obviously
counter cultural.
David Bryfman (19:37):
And you think that's a battle worth fighting
to reclaim Zionism, for me to
Unknown (19:41):
hear you ask whether reclaiming Zionism is a battle
worth fighting is akin to youasking is the battle to maintain
myself as a Jew is a battleworth fighting for so it's part
of who I am, and I believe, partof who we are. Again, I'm not
talking about the Zionistmovement alone. I'm talking
about Zionism. Them in itscontext,
David Bryfman (20:01):
Zohar, let's see if we can go a bit more to the
personal. And you and I alsohave both discussed over time
that it's very hard todistinguish between the
professional roles that we holdand the personal positions that
we hold in life. And maybe wecan get a bit self reflective
here and ask you the question,as Zohar, the educator for many
decades now, where do you thinkyou have been most successful as
(20:25):
a Jewish educator?
Unknown (20:26):
I want to believe that one of my significant
contributions lies in theability to assist in creating a
comprehensive and clear languagefor the field, articulating
certain key concepts thatallowed, and hopefully continue
(20:46):
to allow, many of our educatorsaround the world to brush their
minds against complex ideas inrelatively accessible manners,
and to inspire educators to thefact that education is truly a
holy work. It's a mission. It'snot a job. And I would like to
(21:11):
believe that my contribution tothe language and the approach of
Jewish and Israel education issomething that is felt and will
continue to be
David Bryfman (21:20):
felt in the field. And you might not say
this, but let me say this isthat what you just said is
language or as an as a responsethat could appear in any
academic institution or inappear in books or in articles.
And what you've been able to dois to translate those thoughts
and that thinking into possiblythe largest, most scaled Jewish
(21:41):
intervention at least of thelast 50 years and taken that to
birthright Israel. So I thinkit's the ability for you to have
those opinions and thosethoughts and that language, but
then to be able to scale it at amagnitude that I don't think
we've seen before. I thinkthat's that's a real talent, and
that's a that's something weshould be able to celebrate as
Jewish educators. It is,
Unknown (22:00):
it is, it is an awesome task, and you're right. And
it's, it's, it's a great honorto have this, this position and
this potential of impact. Yes,it's
David Bryfman (22:10):
interesting.
Sometimes asking educators abouttheir greatest successes is more
difficult than the followingquestion, but let's, let's throw
both of them out there. Where doyou think you didn't get it
right? If you were to look backat your career, especially as it
relates to Israel education, ifyou could do something all over
again, where do you think youmight not have got it right?
Unknown (22:27):
I think it goes back to something that you and I
discussed before, and that'ssomething that appeared to me
after October 7. I think that inthe name that, in the name of of
safe spaces, I allowed foreducational processes that were
far too apologetic than theyshould have been. And I think
(22:47):
that one of the moments ofRecalculating route for me, on a
personal level and aprofessional level that happened
after October 7 is theunderstanding that education
needs to stand for something,and that when you stand for
something, there will always bethose who don't like what you
stand for, and you should becomfortable with that. In other
(23:08):
words, that education is notshould not aspire to cater to
all all the time, but aspire tohave a backbone and attract
people to it through itsarguments, through its
invitation for dialog, throughits belief in certain values,
fully understanding that it hasat any given moment, there will
(23:32):
be those who will not abide byit, and today, I'm much more
comfortable with it,
David Bryfman (23:36):
if I'm not mistaken. In the past, you have
used the word pluralism as partof your pedagogy, that you
believe that education, bydefinition, should be as open
minded as it possibly can be,absolutely
Unknown (23:47):
always, even more so today. But you also know that
I've always spoken about unitywithout uniformity. And I also
think that as we celebrate ourpluralism, definitely when it
comes to opinions, mindsets,ideologies, we should also give
time to celebrate our unifyingelements as a people, and also
(24:11):
give them the time and spacethey need, lest we start taking
them for granted. So
David Bryfman (24:16):
just an aside for our listeners, part of this
conversation is rooted in thefact that I believe that after
October 7, that Jewish educationdoes need to undergo some fairly
major significant changes. Notthat they weren't necessarily
necessary before October 7, butmore so after October 7, and now
is the time we live in. Andthere's a question mark as to
whether you can actually improvea field or improve the status
(24:38):
quo by shining a bright on allof the highlights and the bright
spots, or whether you also needto actually focus on some of the
some of the setbacks challenges.
Some people even call themfailures, and this is a debate
that I'll be exploring with,with Zohan, with other guests,
as well as to withoutnecessarily having to go through
this completely self critical tothe point of despair analysis
of. One's own performance andbehavior is how much
(25:01):
introspection needs to takeplace for a field in order for
us actually to to move on,improve and do and do better,
given the new realities in whichwe live, any reflections on on
that? Zohar,
Unknown (25:12):
yes, yes, of course.
David, because that's a processthat has been going on in my
mind as well. And actually hereI will probably take the
maimonidean doctrine of findinga middle ground between
understanding that I don't needto reinvent the wheel of Jewish
and Israel education, because,quite frankly, we've done a lot
of good work, all of us up toOctober 7, but at the same time,
(25:34):
what had happened since then isthat it forced us to recalculate
some of the routes that weeither believed worked or
overlooked for whatever reason,and it forces us now to revisit
some of our philosophies andpedagogies. And I think that
that's a very healthy process,but I think that a balanced act
(25:56):
between the two is existentiallyimportant for the Jewish people
and for Jewish educators,because at the end of the day, I
really believe that Jewisheducators have a great mandate
in their hands, and it comeswith awesome responsibility, and
we have to come back to ourpeople saying we have the
courage to celebrate what Webelieve worked, and to re
(26:18):
examine, even painfully so whatwe believe needs to change. I
try to uphold that in my ownlife and with my own work. With
birthright is all where wechange certain things, but other
things that worked and stillwork, we even heightened in
order to bring the awareness ofpeople that not everything is
bad, just like not everything iswrong or good. Let's
David Bryfman (26:40):
give an example of both, if we can, because I
think birthright is a goodexample, if we can just drill
down what's, what's the numberone thing in birthright that you
think right now, there's aparticular mandate to double
down on the success of somethingthat birthright has, has been
doing well for a long time, the
Unknown (26:55):
value of mutual responsibility, accountability
and solidarity. I think thatwhat had happened after October
7 showed to everybody theincredible potential and
contribution of that sense ofpeoplehood, where both Israeli
young adults and American orother young adults from around
the world feel that they areconnected, but not only
(27:15):
connected, that they help eachother and derive help from the
other and support. In otherwords, that sense which has been
woven through birthright Israeltrips as part and parcel of what
is the let's say the inertia ofthe trip is now well defined,
well articulated, and has beenput into our educational
platform, an element which weare now looking to add and which
(27:38):
did not exist up to this point,is the element of volunteering,
which is a term, by the way,which I'm not happy with,
because I don't think that it'sabout volunteering. It is about,
again, mutual responsibility andcall to action, which we believe
has become a very necessaryelement of participants who come
to Israel and don't seethemselves only as passive
(28:01):
recipients of education, butalso as giving back while on the
educational experience itself,and that is something that has
already become part and parcelof the birthright Israel
experience. This
David Bryfman (28:13):
is a slight tangent, but it just really
interests me what you've justsaid. It's clear to me how both
of those examples impact theAmerican or the Jew from outside
of Israel coming on a birthrighttrip. Can you explain, as an
Israeli, how do those thingsalso impact the lives of
Israelis and Israel as well?
Unknown (28:28):
Tremendous impact David, tremendous impact to see
the faces of young adults frommoshevim in the south, of people
with agricultural farms who'vebeen assisted by birthright
Israel graduates for two weeksevery time that help them to
maintain their livelihood andmaintain their jobs and work and
(28:51):
fields to see the eyes ofIsraelis open when they start to
understand that world Jewry isnot Just a deep pocket and miss
the eye, but rather, it is acomplex mechanism that brings
with it great vitality, greatimportance and a great support
system has been overwhelming andand I think that that sense of
(29:12):
overwhelm, by the way, typifiesIsraeli society by and large
since October 7, it's
David Bryfman (29:18):
one of the things which I think is Maybe, I don't
know if it's overwhelming, butit complicates this discussion
for me in many ways that we inthe diaspora, and here I'm
putting you sort of like workingon behalf of a diaspora jury.
We're trying to work beyondOctober 7. What comes next? What
do we do afterwards? The dayafter? Some people have called
it, and for many aspects ofIsraeli society, we're still in
(29:40):
the midst of the war. It's likethere are still soldiers
fighting, being wounded andkilled, literally every all the
time. There are 101 hostagesstill there for many Israelis.
October 7 is not over, and yetthe conversations outside of
Israel are almost lookingtowards the next day. I think
this is something which is, it'sa divide, I think. And I think.
Think your pedagogy helps bringit together, but I don't think
(30:03):
we can underestimate that dividestill exists. Yeah,
Unknown (30:06):
I don't know if I would necessarily call it a divide, or
I will call it a difference infocus. First of all, I don't
speak David when I speak toaudiences on both sides of the
ocean. I don't speak only aboutOctober 7. I speak about October
7 in Israel, and October andOctober 8 in the Western world.
I think that the October 8challenges that American Jewry
(30:30):
needed to face and still needsto face are very much also on
our consciousness here inIsrael. But you're absolutely
right. As an Israeli, I can tellyou, and I've recently written
about this that every morning,every morning, brings with it
another sense of mourning. Andwe are still, we're still very
much in this ongoing mechanismwhich forces us to look at the
(30:54):
site while we still need touphold the vision. And actually,
I think that that's where peoplelike you and me can help each
other to a great degree, becausesometimes I find myself in great
need of your way of seeingthings from your context, and I
want to believe that sometimesyou need people like me to give
you the context that happens inIsrael. But yeah, we need to
(31:16):
work together in order tomitigate this, what you call
divide, or at least to show eachcommunity the other focus of its
sister community, so we can worktogether on these challenges.
David Bryfman (31:27):
Well, I can assure you that your touch
points over the last year havegreatly informed how I've been
thinking about what's beenhappening, and my biggest fear
was the distancing of therealities and having people like
yourself and you and I know ofothers as well who made sure
that we were in constant dialogwas one of the most important
pieces for me being able to getthrough the last 12 months,
(31:48):
personally and as an educator, Ithink I know the answer this
last question, but I don't wantto presume it. You've traveled
around the world to variouscommunities talking about
similar related topics. I'mwondering, does your message
ever change? And why I'm askingthis is, is this truly a Jewish
people who had a global Jewishmoment, or are there differences
which need to occur when you'respeaking to different
communities? It's
Unknown (32:09):
it's a valid question, and, and, and I honestly
believe, and you're right. I'vebeen all over the different
parts of the world. I trulybelieve that what we're
witnessing right now, David is atransition, a moment of national
awareness that is of globalscale. Yes, you may find
different approaches inAustralia versus the US or South
(32:33):
Africa or France or England, allof which, all of whom are
communities I'm engaged withright now. At the end of the
day, I think that the challengesthat all Jews are facing right
now are pretty much the same,and the things that worry the
Jewish community on a globallevel is also pretty much
similar. And on that note, Iwant to say one more thing with
(32:54):
your permission, which we havenot touched everywhere I go, one
of the prevalent questions Ihear from stakeholders, leaders
and so on and so forth, is, whatcan education do to fight anti
semitism, which is a question Iobviously understand, and I want
to share with you my answer tothis question, because I believe
that it's at the very heart ofthe philosophy which I believe
(33:18):
we should uphold, and that isthat for education, and for
Jewish education, fighting antisemitism is not a goal, it's an
outcome. The goal of Jewisheducation is to instill a Jewish
identity that is based on theinner mechanisms, values and
debates of Jewish life, tocreate proud, resilient, well
(33:39):
informed, critically thoughtfulindividuals who are members of
the Jewish people. And theoutcome of such a process will
be such people fighting antisemitism because they are
motivated internally to do so,rather than instructed
externally to do so. And I don'tthink that education should
externally instruct people tofight anti semitism, but
(34:00):
motivate them from positive,proactive identity formation,
and one of those outcomes wouldbe people fighting anti
semitism. But we should remainvery focused on what is our goal
here. Thank
David Bryfman (34:11):
you. Thank you for sharing that. I think it's
an important message for many ofour well, you know this for many
of our stakeholders to hear aswell. Let me ask you that
question, because there areother stakeholders in Jewish
education, more than just theJewish students and the and the
teachers. Let's talk onesentence, if we can, about the
funders, the philanthropists,the federations, those that
support the the enterprise ofJewish education. If you had one
(34:33):
message for those stakeholders,what would that be?
Unknown (34:36):
Well, David, that's a great question. It's a very,
very important question, andit's a question that both you
and I have been dealing with nowfor, for quite some time and
with with greater sense ofurgency, since October 7. And my
take on this is that I believethat Jewish philanthropy should
also consolidate its power andrally around a much.
(34:59):
Comprehensive, well articulatedvision for Jewish and Israel
education, and put its resourcesinto a process that allows for
the creation of not only a welldefined and thoughtfully crafted
pluralistic roadmap for what arethe necessary requisites for
(35:22):
solid Jewish and Israeleducation, but really rally
around such a roadmap, also interms of assisting in the
cultivation and creation of ageneration of educators who are
much more equipped with dealingwith those issues. Because, in
my opinion, David, one of thegreatest challenges that we face
(35:42):
is not only the subject ofIsrael and Jewish education as a
subject matter or as a contentmatter, it's also the great need
that we all have for solideducators who are able to
address and tackle theseprofound questions, and do so in
a manner that is not onlyinformative and challenging, but
(36:05):
also functioning as role modelsof how to deal with difficult
questions in Jewish life withoutlosing one's attachment to one's
Jewish life. Thank
David Bryfman (36:15):
you. Thank you for that. It's I feel bad for
the audience. I forgot that wewere recording this feels like
one of Zohar and myconversations that we have on a
somewhat regular basis, and nowI actually realize there's an
audience out there as well. Sohi audience. I hope you've
enjoyed, I mean, enjoyed is notthe right word. I hope you've
been provoked and challenged asmuch as I have, not just in this
(36:35):
conversation, but in much ofZohar work, which transcends
this podcast. Obviously, we'lllink some notes to some of the
articles in which Zohar refersto but I do want to ask you one
question specifically related tothis. This conversation, is
there an educator in your inyour life that you think has
impacted you most to get toarticulate some of these views?
Well,
Unknown (36:54):
first of all, of course, we're both indebted to
Professor Barry Hassan, who'shad a major, major work and
impact on our lives. But I willbe remiss if I don't mention
also professor Bernard Riesman,who has been a major force in my
life, and whom I had the greathonor of studying under. And
(37:15):
Bernie brought with him a greatsense of humility and a wisdom
that reflected his vision forfor the Jewish people, always
focusing on not shying away fromthe challenges, but focusing on
reminding us that being Jewishis actually something to be
proud of. Both he and BarryHassan have been great
(37:36):
influences in my life.
David Bryfman (37:39):
I never had the opportunity to study with
Bernie, although you and I didmeet at Brandeis University.
Well, we actually, I think,first met at a cemetery in
Newport Rhode Island, where
Unknown (37:49):
I did a program about the Newport Rhode Island
cemetery in synagogue in UK. Iremember
David Bryfman (37:54):
that day, but it wasn't about the cemetery or the
synagogue. Was it?
Unknown (37:58):
No, it was, was about identity formation, and it's
David Bryfman (38:01):
so interesting that we talk about, I mean, you
talk about identity formationnow as not being a response to
anti semitism. In fact, that weformulated those beginning
conversations about Jewishidentity in a cemetery,
Unknown (38:13):
it's not lost to me in a tiny Jewish cemetery in
Newport, Rhode Island. Zaha,
David Bryfman (38:17):
thank you. Thank you for everything you do.
Thanks for being part of thisconversation. I look forward to
seeing you in the next couple ofweeks, both stateside at the
General Assembly for the JewishFederations of North America,
and then I'll be coming toIsrael with a group and a pass
across, hopefully there as well.
So I thank you for everything,
Unknown (38:35):
David, always, always a pleasure and an honor.
David Bryfman (38:39):
Today's episode of adapting was produced by Dina
nussenbaum and Miranda Lapides.
The show's executive producersare myself, Karen Cummins and
nessa Lehman. Our show isengineered and edited by Nathan
J Bourne of njv media. Fewenjoyed adapting this season,
and particularly this episode,please leave us a five star
rating on Apple podcasts, oreven better still, share it with
a friend. This will be part ofan ongoing series about the
(38:59):
future of Israel and Jewisheducation after October 7, to
learn more about the Jewisheducation project, please visit
us@jewishedproject.org you canthere learn more about our
mission history and staff. Andas always, we are a proud
partner of UJA Federation of NewYork. And thank you as always
for listening.
Unknown (39:22):
Foreign
The shine a light on anti semitism. Civic Courage
Award is now open fornominations. This is your
opportunity to recognize someonewho is actively combating the
rising tide of anti semitism.
This prestigious awardcelebrates individuals across
eight categories, includingstudents and educators, offering
a $2,000 prize and nationalrecognition. If you have someone
to nominate, visit shine thelight on.com forward slash
(00:22):
awards to nominate someone whoseactivism spreads light by
November 25Hi everybody. We are recording
today's episode of adapting onOctober 31 2024 and I'm having a
conversation with Dr Zohar Ravivabout the future of Jewish and
Israel education in a year afterOctober 7. In a post October 7
(00:46):
world, so to speak, one of thethemes that I wanted to explore
with Zohar, and we'll be doingso with other guests moving into
other episodes, is how do wetreat October 7 as a new turning
point, a new page in Jewisheducation. Not that the issues
that we spoke about might nothave existed beforehand, but
October 7 offers us theopportunity to really start
(01:06):
afresh. But I don't want to saycompletely start afresh. I want
to say double down on what wewere doing really well, but also
to reconsider some aspects ofour Jewish and Israel education,
because the reality now haschanged substantially enough to
warrant us to do so in order toget there. This episode allows
Zohar to take both aprofessional and a personal look
(01:26):
at where he's done really,really well and where he's also
has his challenges. And I thinkthat's one of the key messages
for all Jewish educators that weneed to be able to take stock of
both our successes and also ourpitfalls in order to help create
this new reality. Thank you, asalways, for listening today, and
I am sure, I am absolutely sure,that you will enjoy today's
episode of adapting as much as Idid recording it. This is
(01:48):
adapting the future of Jewisheducation, a podcast from the
Jewish education project wherewe explore the big questions,
challenges and successes thatdefine Jewish education. I'm
David breifman.
Dr Zohar Raviv is currentlyserving as the International
(02:10):
vice president of educationalstrategy for Taglit birthright,
Israel. Zohar, thank you so muchfor joining us on adapting
today.
Unknown (02:16):
Hi, David. Very good to be with you as always.
David Bryfman (02:19):
So you and I have met up a few times since October
7. We've had severalconversations, but the last time
you appeared on a webinar withus, it was really in the weeks
directly after October 7. And Idon't know how much you even
remember from that recording,but at that particular point in
time, I think you couldcategorize your expressions as
(02:39):
somewhere between grief andshock and a real sadness, and
understandably so, you wereliving through so much turmoil
and terror at the time, but talkto us a bit about what your
journey has been like since thattime and where you are today.
Unknown (02:54):
Well, yes, David, I remember very vividly the time
that we met, a few weeks afterthat dreadful moment, and
indeed, you describe itaccurately at first, like
everybody else, the shock, thebewilderment, the anchor, the
angst, trepidation, all of theseemotions pretty much took over.
(03:14):
But I think that quite soonafterwards, the educators had
kicked in, and I startedthinking on on a different
level, understanding that thatif we want to continue and do
our work and fulfill our mandateas educators, we need to be able
to look beyond, beyond the site,and start have a vision. And in
(03:37):
that respect, there are fivevery, very brief things that
governed my journey since thatmoment, the first being that I
feel, and I still very stronglyfeel, that we are at what I call
a revolutionary moment in theevolution of the Jewish people.
The second point is that theonly thing that I can see that
is greater than this calamity isthe educational potential in its
(04:00):
wake. The third point is thatwhile our shared past is a fact,
our shared future is a choice,and I believe that the mandate
of education is to help peoplemake the choices that lead them
to become more engaged, moreinformed, more involved, more
passionate members of the Jewishpeople. The fourth point is
(04:22):
about leadership in and ofitself, which I believe cannot
go hand in hand with despair.
And the fifth point is that weare all in this together. So
David Bryfman (04:31):
let's use this conversation to go into a few of
those things. And let's startoff with a word that you didn't
use, but it's one that we aseducators like to use a lot, and
that is optimism. And I think weboth agree that a purpose, if
not. You know, the mandate ofall educators is to be
optimistic if you don't thinkyou can create a better future.
And I'm not sure really whatpoint there is to be an
educator, but in the moments ofdespair, it's difficult, and I
(04:53):
imagine that you're struggledthrough in the last year to
always remain optimistic. So howdo you deal with both the
reality? And also your missionand mandate as an educator,
Unknown (05:02):
that's an excellent question. And I think that one
of the first things that thatthat informed my approach was
this distinction that you and Ihave discussed before, that I
make between sight and visionand the site is obviously very,
very difficult, but I believethat sites, by definition elicit
(05:22):
a reaction, and reactions bydefinition are tactical, whereas
visions are proactive and theyare strategic. And my goal as an
educator is to look at it from astrategic standpoint, and from a
strategic standpoint, I willtake what you said even a step
further. Despair is a luxury wecannot afford. So for me,
optimism is intrinsic to theeducational mandate, and I
(05:48):
refuse to see anything butoptimism as the call to action
that propels my engagement witheducation in general and with
Jewish and Israel education inparticular. Perhaps
David Bryfman (05:59):
it's worth reflecting on probably one of
the disagreements or thearguments that not that you and
I had, but the you and I werewitness to and part of in the
immediacy after October 7, Ithink that's that's very
illustrative and helpful, andthat was an educational approach
which both of us have held formany years, that experiential
education, informal education,allows learners to reach their
(06:20):
own conclusions in a in a givenlearning environment, and that
the good education is theopposite of indoctrination in
many, many ways the listenerscan't see. But so far, Zohar is
still nodding. And then we hadthis, we had this big
disagreement, not that you and Ihad the disagreement. We were
witness to a disagreementbetween what it's like to allow
people to reach their ownconclusions, and also for
(06:43):
education to hold certain moraltruths or to hold certain moral
elements or aspects of adiscourse as undisputable and
not up for discussion. Can youreflect a bit about that time
and the and the discussions thatwere going on internally and
maybe even externally for you atthat time? Yes,
Unknown (07:01):
of course, you know this, and many others, that in
the immediate aftermath ofOctober 7 in Israel and October
8 in North America and otherparts of the Western world, one
of the things that I said very,very clearly that we need to
uphold moral clarity, and thatterm moral clarity did not
necessarily brush everybody thesame way. And today, more than a
(07:26):
year after October 7, I upholdthis approach even stronger. And
I've written about it, Idiscussed it, I lecture about
it. I do believe that part andparcel of education is creating
a clear distinction between whatfalls under right versus left
and what falls under rightversus wrong. And whereas both
(07:48):
you and I and every other solideducator, in my opinion, should
applaud the application ofcontext and complexity, there
are certain things that have nocomplex and no complexity
whatsoever. And you witnessed megetting into bitter arguments
with notable educators on thisissue, which were valid and
(08:09):
important arguments, but I stillmaintain that what happened on
October 7 is a crime againsthumanity, and it should be held
as such, and that we aseducators should uphold a very
clear moral standard, which, bythe way, does not apply only to
Jews. For sure, we're talkingabout crimes against humanity,
not crimes against Jews, andthat is a burden that educators
(08:32):
must uphold very strongly as tothe first part of your question
about people having the right toform their own opinions, of
course, which is obviously partand parcel of solid education. I
do believe that the mandate ofeducation, and we talked about
this before, does not lie withwhat people think, which is none
of our business, but with howpeople think. And I think that
(08:53):
the one of the greatestchallenges that social discourse
in the western world faces todayis that more and more people are
losing their ability to thinkintelligently, responsibly,
humbly, reflectively on a hostof issues, and I think that
that's what education shouldfocus on, giving people tools to
think responsibly about whateverissue that bothers them. So
David Bryfman (09:16):
I don't want to suggest that this is mutually
exclusive, but there will besituations, especially I imagine
in your role with birthrightIsrael, that a young person, a
young adult, will come onto abirthright program and will have
views which get close toblurring that moral clarity for
you, or they'll have opinionswhich you might find very
difficult to deal with on amoral level. So I want to make
(09:37):
the distinction here betweenyour statement about the
educators role to uphold moralclarity, and then your love of
the individual learner,regardless of what their
viewpoints might be. So let'sput it into action. A young
person comes on a birthrightIsrael program and challenges
you with some things which youthink are morally clear, but for
them it's not as clear. How doyou as an educator have that
(09:57):
conversation?
Unknown (09:59):
First of all. It is the ability to have that
conversation, absolutely andsecond, David, I think that in
many cases, people are veryoccupied with the application of
what is known in our field assafe spaces for discussion. I
add to that requirement of asafe space that allows each
person to voice their opinion astheir unalienable right. I also
(10:23):
add the need for a brave space,and a brave space is the ability
to introduce to our learners andto ourselves that a solid dialog
can only happen if someone feelssecure to voice their opinions,
but also has the moral integrityand maturity and willingness to
(10:45):
become a resilient listener.
That means someone who remainsaround the table even when they
hear voices radically differentthan their own, rather than
intuitively cancel that noiseout. And I cannot teach people
how to do this without being arole model of doing it myself.
So in fact, if a student thesort of which you described,
(11:07):
comes to me, I will welcome sucha conversation and then start
unpacking what they're saying ina manner that will not
necessarily resolve thatconundrum, but allow us to find
a shared platform to engage in adialog without necessarily
agreeing on everything.
David Bryfman (11:26):
This is like so interesting in so many ways, and
I think October 7 has raised thestakes on this particular
conversation. But you and I,both being students of informal
education and students of BarryHassan and so many others, we're
very familiar with the informaleducational framework, where the
educator, the Madrid thecounselor, basically gives
(11:46):
positive reinforcement to everyresponse that a young person
gives, no matter how ridiculousit might actually have been. The
experiential education for manyyears, was motivated by the
desire just to acknowledge andto affirm every single learner.
And I can remember even myselflike, Oh, thank you. That was a
good answer, and in the back ofmy mind, saying like that was
real, not true, like you justmade that up, but we fell into
(12:07):
that trap often as educators,just affirming everything that
was said. And I think whatyou're saying here is yes, on
one hand, maintaining, you know,the respect and dignity of all
learners in a safe and a bravespace is important. But actually
there's something far moreimportant. The stakes are much
higher than just the self esteemof every individual learner.
Unknown (12:23):
Absolutely David, and it goes far beyond what you just
described right now in the inthe last minute, because I think
that this tendency of affirmingevery word that comes out of any
learner's mouth is exactly whatcreated eventually echo chambers
of consent, which obviously leadto not only intellectual
(12:46):
redundancy and mediocrity, butalso actually pull the pull the
plug out of any ability to haveintelligent, probing, reflective
discussion about any issue. AndI believe, I strongly believe,
that students actually wouldlike to be challenged far more
than they would like just to beaffirmed if they really want to
(13:09):
learn something. And I that iswhy, when I have discussions of
this sort, with with students orwith tour educators, who later
on address students, I tellthem, try to encourage yourself
and others to actually seeconversations with those who
disagree with you, because youmay learn and sharpen your
intellectual faculties fargreater than having discussions
(13:31):
with those who are already onyour side. Preaching to the
choir is not exactly the way togain wisdom, and that's
something that is very much partof my pedagogy, and the pedagogy
also that is applied onbirthright and other
organizations as well. That's
David Bryfman (13:45):
a major critique against, I think, education in
the western world in general,where it's been heading for the
last few decades. But let'sapply it to Jewish education, or
to Israel educationspecifically. Now is what you're
suggesting. Is actually apathway that we've been going on
for many years. Wasn't October7, which revealed all of that to
you. This was present wellbefore October 7 when it comes
(14:06):
to Israel and Jewish education,absolutely.
Unknown (14:08):
And you know this, David, from previous
conversations we held, Iremember you sitting in a room
in front of me and asking a hostof senior educators what has
changed and what has notchanged. And for me, a lot
changed, but it changed in termsof amplifying undercurrents who
had existed there 10 and 20years ago. So a lot of the
(14:29):
things that you and I arediscussing right now have
actually no direct connection toOctober 7, albeit October 7
brought them to the surface in avery persuasive manner. And
David Bryfman (14:39):
perhaps October 7 was so traumatic that it allows
us to confront some of thesechallenges in ways that we
weren't able to do before,because in way, it almost ripped
off the band aid of many ofthese things. And now maybe
we're able to explore theseissues further, and let's see if
we can go there. So if I was toask you, Zohar, what do you
think is the. Biggest problemfacing Israel education today.
(15:03):
What would you surmise is thenumber one challenge facing the
field today? And we can get intoan argument, is it a field or
isn't a field? Let's leave thatfor another, another time. But
the biggest challenge right nowfor Jewish and Israel education,
and I've conflated the two, youmight not conflate the two, but
what's the biggest challengesyou see it today? Um,
Unknown (15:20):
there are a number, but I think that if you ask me to
choose one right now, to takeadvantage of the opportunity of
this, of this podcast, I wouldsay that reclaiming the
narratives of Israel and Zionismand reclaiming it in a non
apologetic a significant way,readdressing Israel, the State
(15:40):
of Israel and Zionism in what Ibelieve is the appropriate
context, in creating a platformof intelligent, reflective,
critical discussion about whatthe state of Israel is and what
is the Zionist movement, namely,the State of Israel in the
context of the Land of Israeland the Zionist movement in the
context of the Zionist idea, orthe Zionist value statement.
(16:02):
This is a great challenge. Andthe second challenge is the
great disparity that I findbetween the multi layered
reality of Israel and theoftentimes single layered
perception of Israel, and thatis pretty much the landscape in
which people like you and Ioperate, we aim to mitigate the
(16:24):
gap between what Israel is andwhat people see Israel based on
social media, other mediaplatforms, sound bites
headlines, which is very, very,very myopic, very, very single
dimensional in nature, and doesnot allow our participants or
our potential audience to fullygrapple with Israel in all of
(16:47):
its what I call splendidimperfections. And the last
thing I would say is that weneed to stop treating Israel or
judging Israel or criticizingIsrael as if it aspires to be an
ideal state. And I've said itfor many, many years, Israel
never aspired to be an idealstate, but rather it aspires to
be a state of ideals. And oncewe unpack those ideals and we
(17:09):
start criticizing Israel, we canactually affect positive change
in the conversation aboutIsrael, in the conversation of
Jewish peoplehood, both betweeneducators and between our
students, but putting Israel onan undeserving pedestal, as it
were, is a disservice not onlyto our students and to
ourselves, but also to Israel,and in that respect, I would go
(17:32):
for a much more realisticapproach to the state and to its
evolution.
David Bryfman (17:38):
I want to ask you about several of these things,
but I want to start with thesecond one first and ask you, I
know that you Let's challenge itin terms of saying it's obvious
that the main way most of ouryoung adults and teens learn
about Israel is through socialmedia and news, which is
dominated by reflecting militaryactions and government policies,
(17:58):
which you and I know at thatlevel can be confronting for our
youth of today, especially inthe western democracies in which
we live. So what you're sayingis true, and it also
acknowledges that there's areality that we're dealing with.
And I think in some ways whatyou're talking about with at
least your second point isthere's often a disconnect
between what we aspire to aseducators and what we know to be
(18:19):
the truth or the reality of ouryoung people today, and somehow
we're trying to bridge those twothings. But wow, it's a it's an
ambitious task to think thatJewish education is powerful
enough to fight against theforces of social media. But in
some ways, that's what you'resuggesting.
Unknown (18:33):
It is ambitious. But I will say this, David, I
wholeheartedly believe thateducation in general, or at
least what I would render solideducation in general, and
definitely Jewish and Israel,education is becoming a counter
cultural endeavor, and that weneed, with great intentionality
and purpose, work against thezeitgeist, which leads to what I
(18:57):
call junk Food for Thought, thepresentation of very, very
mediocre and conflictinginformation, lack of knowledge,
willed, ignorance, demagogy,manipulation and so on and so
forth. The educator today mustmake a conscious decision to go
against culture and not with it.
David Bryfman (19:16):
Is Zionism cultural, or counter cultural
for the Jewish people,
Unknown (19:20):
Zionism the way it is perceived today by many, and the
critique they have of it is verymuch going hand in hand with the
culture Zionism, the way I seeit, and what I believe is the
context which needs to bereintroduced is obviously
counter cultural.
David Bryfman (19:37):
And you think that's a battle worth fighting
to reclaim Zionism, for me to
Unknown (19:41):
hear you ask whether reclaiming Zionism is a battle
worth fighting is akin to youasking is the battle to maintain
myself as a Jew is a battleworth fighting for so it's part
of who I am, and I believe, partof who we are. Again, I'm not
talking about the Zionistmovement alone. I'm talking
about Zionism. Them in itscontext,
David Bryfman (20:01):
Zohar, let's see if we can go a bit more to the
personal. And you and I alsohave both discussed over time
that it's very hard todistinguish between the
professional roles that we holdand the personal positions that
we hold in life. And maybe wecan get a bit self reflective
here and ask you the question,as Zohar, the educator for many
decades now, where do you thinkyou have been most successful as
(20:25):
a Jewish educator?
Unknown (20:26):
I want to believe that one of my significant
contributions lies in theability to assist in creating a
comprehensive and clear languagefor the field, articulating
certain key concepts thatallowed, and hopefully continue
(20:46):
to allow, many of our educatorsaround the world to brush their
minds against complex ideas inrelatively accessible manners,
and to inspire educators to thefact that education is truly a
holy work. It's a mission. It'snot a job. And I would like to
(21:11):
believe that my contribution tothe language and the approach of
Jewish and Israel education issomething that is felt and will
continue to be
David Bryfman (21:20):
felt in the field. And you might not say
this, but let me say this isthat what you just said is
language or as an as a responsethat could appear in any
academic institution or inappear in books or in articles.
And what you've been able to dois to translate those thoughts
and that thinking into possiblythe largest, most scaled Jewish
(21:41):
intervention at least of thelast 50 years and taken that to
birthright Israel. So I thinkit's the ability for you to have
those opinions and thosethoughts and that language, but
then to be able to scale it at amagnitude that I don't think
we've seen before. I thinkthat's that's a real talent, and
that's a that's something weshould be able to celebrate as
Jewish educators. It is,
Unknown (22:00):
it is, it is an awesome task, and you're right. And
it's, it's, it's a great honorto have this, this position and
this potential of impact. Yes,it's
David Bryfman (22:10):
interesting.
Sometimes asking educators abouttheir greatest successes is more
difficult than the followingquestion, but let's, let's throw
both of them out there. Where doyou think you didn't get it
right? If you were to look backat your career, especially as it
relates to Israel education, ifyou could do something all over
again, where do you think youmight not have got it right?
Unknown (22:27):
I think it goes back to something that you and I
discussed before, and that'ssomething that appeared to me
after October 7. I think that inthe name that, in the name of of
safe spaces, I allowed foreducational processes that were
far too apologetic than theyshould have been. And I think
(22:47):
that one of the moments ofRecalculating route for me, on a
personal level and aprofessional level that happened
after October 7 is theunderstanding that education
needs to stand for something,and that when you stand for
something, there will always bethose who don't like what you
stand for, and you should becomfortable with that. In other
(23:08):
words, that education is notshould not aspire to cater to
all all the time, but aspire tohave a backbone and attract
people to it through itsarguments, through its
invitation for dialog, throughits belief in certain values,
fully understanding that it hasat any given moment, there will
(23:32):
be those who will not abide byit, and today, I'm much more
comfortable with it,
David Bryfman (23:36):
if I'm not mistaken. In the past, you have
used the word pluralism as partof your pedagogy, that you
believe that education, bydefinition, should be as open
minded as it possibly can be,absolutely
Unknown (23:47):
always, even more so today. But you also know that
I've always spoken about unitywithout uniformity. And I also
think that as we celebrate ourpluralism, definitely when it
comes to opinions, mindsets,ideologies, we should also give
time to celebrate our unifyingelements as a people, and also
(24:11):
give them the time and spacethey need, lest we start taking
them for granted. So
David Bryfman (24:16):
just an aside for our listeners, part of this
conversation is rooted in thefact that I believe that after
October 7, that Jewish educationdoes need to undergo some fairly
major significant changes. Notthat they weren't necessarily
necessary before October 7, butmore so after October 7, and now
is the time we live in. Andthere's a question mark as to
whether you can actually improvea field or improve the status
(24:38):
quo by shining a bright on allof the highlights and the bright
spots, or whether you also needto actually focus on some of the
some of the setbacks challenges.
Some people even call themfailures, and this is a debate
that I'll be exploring with,with Zohan, with other guests,
as well as to withoutnecessarily having to go through
this completely self critical tothe point of despair analysis
of. One's own performance andbehavior is how much
(25:01):
introspection needs to takeplace for a field in order for
us actually to to move on,improve and do and do better,
given the new realities in whichwe live, any reflections on on
that? Zohar,
Unknown (25:12):
yes, yes, of course.
David, because that's a processthat has been going on in my
mind as well. And actually hereI will probably take the
maimonidean doctrine of findinga middle ground between
understanding that I don't needto reinvent the wheel of Jewish
and Israel education, because,quite frankly, we've done a lot
of good work, all of us up toOctober 7, but at the same time,
(25:34):
what had happened since then isthat it forced us to recalculate
some of the routes that weeither believed worked or
overlooked for whatever reason,and it forces us now to revisit
some of our philosophies andpedagogies. And I think that
that's a very healthy process,but I think that a balanced act
(25:56):
between the two is existentiallyimportant for the Jewish people
and for Jewish educators,because at the end of the day, I
really believe that Jewisheducators have a great mandate
in their hands, and it comeswith awesome responsibility, and
we have to come back to ourpeople saying we have the
courage to celebrate what Webelieve worked, and to re
(26:18):
examine, even painfully so whatwe believe needs to change. I
try to uphold that in my ownlife and with my own work. With
birthright is all where wechange certain things, but other
things that worked and stillwork, we even heightened in
order to bring the awareness ofpeople that not everything is
bad, just like not everything iswrong or good. Let's
David Bryfman (26:40):
give an example of both, if we can, because I
think birthright is a goodexample, if we can just drill
down what's, what's the numberone thing in birthright that you
think right now, there's aparticular mandate to double
down on the success of somethingthat birthright has, has been
doing well for a long time, the
Unknown (26:55):
value of mutual responsibility, accountability
and solidarity. I think thatwhat had happened after October
7 showed to everybody theincredible potential and
contribution of that sense ofpeoplehood, where both Israeli
young adults and American orother young adults from around
the world feel that they areconnected, but not only
(27:15):
connected, that they help eachother and derive help from the
other and support. In otherwords, that sense which has been
woven through birthright Israeltrips as part and parcel of what
is the let's say the inertia ofthe trip is now well defined,
well articulated, and has beenput into our educational
platform, an element which weare now looking to add and which
(27:38):
did not exist up to this point,is the element of volunteering,
which is a term, by the way,which I'm not happy with,
because I don't think that it'sabout volunteering. It is about,
again, mutual responsibility andcall to action, which we believe
has become a very necessaryelement of participants who come
to Israel and don't seethemselves only as passive
(28:01):
recipients of education, butalso as giving back while on the
educational experience itself,and that is something that has
already become part and parcelof the birthright Israel
experience. This
David Bryfman (28:13):
is a slight tangent, but it just really
interests me what you've justsaid. It's clear to me how both
of those examples impact theAmerican or the Jew from outside
of Israel coming on a birthrighttrip. Can you explain, as an
Israeli, how do those thingsalso impact the lives of
Israelis and Israel as well?
Unknown (28:28):
Tremendous impact David, tremendous impact to see
the faces of young adults frommoshevim in the south, of people
with agricultural farms who'vebeen assisted by birthright
Israel graduates for two weeksevery time that help them to
maintain their livelihood andmaintain their jobs and work and
(28:51):
fields to see the eyes ofIsraelis open when they start to
understand that world Jewry isnot Just a deep pocket and miss
the eye, but rather, it is acomplex mechanism that brings
with it great vitality, greatimportance and a great support
system has been overwhelming andand I think that that sense of
(29:12):
overwhelm, by the way, typifiesIsraeli society by and large
since October 7, it's
David Bryfman (29:18):
one of the things which I think is Maybe, I don't
know if it's overwhelming, butit complicates this discussion
for me in many ways that we inthe diaspora, and here I'm
putting you sort of like workingon behalf of a diaspora jury.
We're trying to work beyondOctober 7. What comes next? What
do we do afterwards? The dayafter? Some people have called
it, and for many aspects ofIsraeli society, we're still in
(29:40):
the midst of the war. It's likethere are still soldiers
fighting, being wounded andkilled, literally every all the
time. There are 101 hostagesstill there for many Israelis.
October 7 is not over, and yetthe conversations outside of
Israel are almost lookingtowards the next day. I think
this is something which is, it'sa divide, I think. And I think.
Think your pedagogy helps bringit together, but I don't think
(30:03):
we can underestimate that dividestill exists. Yeah,
Unknown (30:06):
I don't know if I would necessarily call it a divide, or
I will call it a difference infocus. First of all, I don't
speak David when I speak toaudiences on both sides of the
ocean. I don't speak only aboutOctober 7. I speak about October
7 in Israel, and October andOctober 8 in the Western world.
I think that the October 8challenges that American Jewry
(30:30):
needed to face and still needsto face are very much also on
our consciousness here inIsrael. But you're absolutely
right. As an Israeli, I can tellyou, and I've recently written
about this that every morning,every morning, brings with it
another sense of mourning. Andwe are still, we're still very
much in this ongoing mechanismwhich forces us to look at the
(30:54):
site while we still need touphold the vision. And actually,
I think that that's where peoplelike you and me can help each
other to a great degree, becausesometimes I find myself in great
need of your way of seeingthings from your context, and I
want to believe that sometimesyou need people like me to give
you the context that happens inIsrael. But yeah, we need to
(31:16):
work together in order tomitigate this, what you call
divide, or at least to show eachcommunity the other focus of its
sister community, so we can worktogether on these challenges.
David Bryfman (31:27):
Well, I can assure you that your touch
points over the last year havegreatly informed how I've been
thinking about what's beenhappening, and my biggest fear
was the distancing of therealities and having people like
yourself and you and I know ofothers as well who made sure
that we were in constant dialogwas one of the most important
pieces for me being able to getthrough the last 12 months,
(31:48):
personally and as an educator, Ithink I know the answer this
last question, but I don't wantto presume it. You've traveled
around the world to variouscommunities talking about
similar related topics. I'mwondering, does your message
ever change? And why I'm askingthis is, is this truly a Jewish
people who had a global Jewishmoment, or are there differences
which need to occur when you'respeaking to different
communities? It's
Unknown (32:09):
it's a valid question, and, and, and I honestly
believe, and you're right. I'vebeen all over the different
parts of the world. I trulybelieve that what we're
witnessing right now, David is atransition, a moment of national
awareness that is of globalscale. Yes, you may find
different approaches inAustralia versus the US or South
(32:33):
Africa or France or England, allof which, all of whom are
communities I'm engaged withright now. At the end of the
day, I think that the challengesthat all Jews are facing right
now are pretty much the same,and the things that worry the
Jewish community on a globallevel is also pretty much
similar. And on that note, Iwant to say one more thing with
(32:54):
your permission, which we havenot touched everywhere I go, one
of the prevalent questions Ihear from stakeholders, leaders
and so on and so forth, is, whatcan education do to fight anti
semitism, which is a question Iobviously understand, and I want
to share with you my answer tothis question, because I believe
that it's at the very heart ofthe philosophy which I believe
(33:18):
we should uphold, and that isthat for education, and for
Jewish education, fighting antisemitism is not a goal, it's an
outcome. The goal of Jewisheducation is to instill a Jewish
identity that is based on theinner mechanisms, values and
debates of Jewish life, tocreate proud, resilient, well
(33:39):
informed, critically thoughtfulindividuals who are members of
the Jewish people. And theoutcome of such a process will
be such people fighting antisemitism because they are
motivated internally to do so,rather than instructed
externally to do so. And I don'tthink that education should
externally instruct people tofight anti semitism, but
(34:00):
motivate them from positive,proactive identity formation,
and one of those outcomes wouldbe people fighting anti
semitism. But we should remainvery focused on what is our goal
here. Thank
David Bryfman (34:11):
you. Thank you for sharing that. I think it's
an important message for many ofour well, you know this for many
of our stakeholders to hear aswell. Let me ask you that
question, because there areother stakeholders in Jewish
education, more than just theJewish students and the and the
teachers. Let's talk onesentence, if we can, about the
funders, the philanthropists,the federations, those that
support the the enterprise ofJewish education. If you had one
(34:33):
message for those stakeholders,what would that be?
Unknown (34:36):
Well, David, that's a great question. It's a very,
very important question, andit's a question that both you
and I have been dealing with nowfor, for quite some time and
with with greater sense ofurgency, since October 7. And my
take on this is that I believethat Jewish philanthropy should
also consolidate its power andrally around a much.
(34:59):
Comprehensive, well articulatedvision for Jewish and Israel
education, and put its resourcesinto a process that allows for
the creation of not only a welldefined and thoughtfully crafted
pluralistic roadmap for what arethe necessary requisites for
(35:22):
solid Jewish and Israeleducation, but really rally
around such a roadmap, also interms of assisting in the
cultivation and creation of ageneration of educators who are
much more equipped with dealingwith those issues. Because, in
my opinion, David, one of thegreatest challenges that we face
(35:42):
is not only the subject ofIsrael and Jewish education as a
subject matter or as a contentmatter, it's also the great need
that we all have for solideducators who are able to
address and tackle theseprofound questions, and do so in
a manner that is not onlyinformative and challenging, but
(36:05):
also functioning as role modelsof how to deal with difficult
questions in Jewish life withoutlosing one's attachment to one's
Jewish life. Thank
David Bryfman (36:15):
you. Thank you for that. It's I feel bad for
the audience. I forgot that wewere recording this feels like
one of Zohar and myconversations that we have on a
somewhat regular basis, and nowI actually realize there's an
audience out there as well. Sohi audience. I hope you've
enjoyed, I mean, enjoyed is notthe right word. I hope you've
been provoked and challenged asmuch as I have, not just in this
(36:35):
conversation, but in much ofZohar work, which transcends
this podcast. Obviously, we'lllink some notes to some of the
articles in which Zohar refersto but I do want to ask you one
question specifically related tothis. This conversation, is
there an educator in your inyour life that you think has
impacted you most to get toarticulate some of these views?
Well,
Unknown (36:54):
first of all, of course, we're both indebted to
Professor Barry Hassan, who'shad a major, major work and
impact on our lives. But I willbe remiss if I don't mention
also professor Bernard Riesman,who has been a major force in my
life, and whom I had the greathonor of studying under. And
(37:15):
Bernie brought with him a greatsense of humility and a wisdom
that reflected his vision forfor the Jewish people, always
focusing on not shying away fromthe challenges, but focusing on
reminding us that being Jewishis actually something to be
proud of. Both he and BarryHassan have been great
(37:36):
influences in my life.
David Bryfman (37:39):
I never had the opportunity to study with
Bernie, although you and I didmeet at Brandeis University.
Well, we actually, I think,first met at a cemetery in
Newport Rhode Island, where
Unknown (37:49):
I did a program about the Newport Rhode Island
cemetery in synagogue in UK. Iremember
David Bryfman (37:54):
that day, but it wasn't about the cemetery or the
synagogue. Was it?
Unknown (37:58):
No, it was, was about identity formation, and it's
David Bryfman (38:01):
so interesting that we talk about, I mean, you
talk about identity formationnow as not being a response to
anti semitism. In fact, that weformulated those beginning
conversations about Jewishidentity in a cemetery,
Unknown (38:13):
it's not lost to me in a tiny Jewish cemetery in
Newport, Rhode Island. Zaha,
David Bryfman (38:17):
thank you. Thank you for everything you do.
Thanks for being part of thisconversation. I look forward to
seeing you in the next couple ofweeks, both stateside at the
General Assembly for the JewishFederations of North America,
and then I'll be coming toIsrael with a group and a pass
across, hopefully there as well.
So I thank you for everything,
Unknown (38:35):
David, always, always a pleasure and an honor.
David Bryfman (38:39):
Today's episode of adapting was produced by Dina
nussenbaum and Miranda Lapides.
The show's executive producersare myself, Karen Cummins and
nessa Lehman. Our show isengineered and edited by Nathan
J Bourne of njv media. Fewenjoyed adapting this season,
and particularly this episode,please leave us a five star
rating on Apple podcasts, oreven better still, share it with
a friend. This will be part ofan ongoing series about the
(38:59):
future of Israel and Jewisheducation after October 7, to
learn more about the Jewisheducation project, please visit
us@jewishedproject.org you canthere learn more about our
mission history and staff. Andas always, we are a proud
partner of UJA Federation of NewYork. And thank you as always
for listening.
Unknown (39:22):
Foreign
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