November 14, 2024 • 41 mins
What does an inclusive classroom look like if there's no education on antisemitism? Public school teacher Shana Dworken knows and has been a vocal advocate for Jewish students and Jewish education, especially since October 7th.
In this week's conversation with David Bryfman, they explore how to create lasting, systemic change in public schools and discuss why Jews, who have always played a significant role in public education, must be present where our kids and families are. This episode is for educators who may feel like a single, powerless voice in a vast system but who truly can make a profound difference for their students and the Jewish community.
This episode was produced by Dina Nusnbaum and Miranda Lapides. The show’s executive producers are David Bryfman, Karen Cummins, and Nessa Liben.
This episode was engineered and edited by Nathan J. Vaughan of NJV Media.
If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a 5-star rating and review, or even better, share it with a friend. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and be the first to know when new episodes are released. To learn more about The Jewish Education Project visit jewishedproject.org where you can find links to our Jewish Educator Portal and learn more about our mission, history, and staff. We are a proud partner of UJA-Federation of New York.
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Episode Transcript
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David Bryfman (00:00):
The shine a light on anti semitism. Civic Courage
Award is now open fornominations. This is your
opportunity to recognize someonewho is actively combating the
rising tide of anti semitism.
This prestigious awardcelebrates individuals across
eight categories, includingstudents and educators, offering
a $2,000 prize and nationalrecognition. If you have someone
to nominate, visit shine thelight on.com forward slash
(00:22):
awards, to nominate someonewhose activism spreads light by
November 25 Hi everybody, andwe're recording today's episode
of adapting on october 29 2024and today's a bit of a change in
direction for some of ourprevious conversations, we're
talking to a Jewish educator ina public school environment who,
(00:43):
especially in the last year, hasdecided to take a stand against
some of the incidents of antisemitic or perceived anti
semitism by by teachers andother students in her school,
and also been able to makesystemic change where necessary
in the New York Public SchoolSystem. Why is this so important
for all of us to be talkingabout, because the majority of
Jewish youth in North Americaand dare I say, around the
(01:05):
world, attend schools in theirin their public sphere, and that
is where our educators arefeeling many of the issues that
are taking place, especially ina post October 7 world they're
often scared of what they'retalking about and how to talk
about the issues, especially forhistory and social studies
teachers like, how is itpossible to be objective on
these issues? This is the fabricof the world in which we live
(01:26):
in, and I think as a Jewishcommunity, we need to be as
committed to the education ofall of our students, no matter
where they are receiving it, tobe aware of the challenges that
people are having, and also toreally shine a light on some of
the real success stories whereit's taking place for individual
educators who are really makinga difference, for not just the
Jewish students in theirschools, but for all students.
(01:47):
And remembering importantly, andShaina talks about this for
many, many students, the firsttime they will meet and have
interactions with a Jewishstudent or a Jewish educator is
first and foremost in theirpublic school environment. So
this episode is one which speaksabout specific examples, but I
think it's got broadimplications for all of us, and
we can all gain something fromthis really remarkable,
(02:07):
impressive conversation withShayna Dworkin. So thank you, as
always, for listening today,this is adapting the future of
Jewish education, a podcast fromthe Jewish education project
where we explore the bigquestions, challenges and
successes that define Jewisheducation. I'm David breifman.
(02:32):
Shayna Dworkin is a 15 yearveteran social studies teacher
in the New York public schoolsystem, and I'm not going to
give too much more of a bio,because as soon as we get to
chatting, you'll understandexactly why I've asked Shayna to
join us here on adapting. SoShaina, thanks so much for
joining us.
Unknown (02:46):
Thank you so much for inviting me. And we really
excited to be here.
David Bryfman (02:50):
So just tell the audience a bit about your your
current job, I mean the officialjob that you actually do. Yeah.
So
Unknown (02:56):
I am a New York City public school teacher. I teach
in a small public school, and Iteach ninth grade global
history, and I'm also theadvisor of the Jewish student
union. And
David Bryfman (03:05):
how long have you been doing that work?
Unknown (03:07):
I have been in the system for almost 20 years now.
David Bryfman (03:11):
So you and I met each other first at a at a
public forum where you weretalking about almost anything
other than social studies andand Global Studies in a school.
So talk to us a bit about whatother roles you've taken on
recently and how that's come tofruition.
Unknown (03:27):
You know, I'm a social studies teacher by training, but
one of my passions as aneducator is creating inclusive
classroom spaces, and so that'swhat brought me into that
conversation where I met you,and it was right after October
7, but the conversations werealready brewing about anti
semitism in schools, andpersonally, I spent a lot of
(03:50):
time doing diversity and equityinitiatives, leading the equity
team at one of the largest highschools in the country. The
conversations were notnecessarily focused on anti
semitism, but it's always beensomething that's been important
to me specifically.
David Bryfman (04:06):
So we'll talk a bit about what happened after
October 7. But the reality isfor you, your your Jewish
awakening as a social studiesteacher in a public school was
prior to prior to that day. Sotalk a bit about some of the
things that raise your ownconsciousness about being a
Jewish educator in a publicschool.
Unknown (04:24):
Yeah, that's right. So my Jewish identity was always
driving my work for inclusiveclassrooms and for the values
that are centered in diversityinitiatives. So I was doing
trainings through the Departmentof Education as a lead social
studies teacher and culturallyresponsive education. I went to
a training called courageousconversations about how to have,
(04:47):
you know, these difficultconversations, and I started to
notice that anti semitism wasnever part of the conversation.
In fact, at one of the trainingsthat I went to, the facilitator
was talking aboutCharlottesville. All and how,
you know, awful it was. He nevermentioned Jews or anti semitism.
And I went up to him after, andI said, you know, I understand,
(05:09):
you know, we're here to talkabout race, but there was an
opportunity to mention that. Andhe was just like, that's not
what we're here for. So that waspart of, you know, this growing
awareness. And then,unfortunately, I had a bad
experience with an administratorwho specifically targeted me
because of my identity and myJewish identity. And that was a
real personal wake up moment,and started to make me think
(05:32):
about what's going on in myschool with the students in that
in my particular school setting.
So it was kind of a slowawakening, I would say, before
October 7, and an awareness thatin these kind of progressive
spaces, I couldn't really showup as my full self. Nobody was
saying no Zionists allowed, oranything about Jews not being
welcomed. But there was anundertone where I just didn't
(05:56):
feel like I could be comfortableanymore.
David Bryfman (06:01):
So the New York public school system has a long
history of Jewish educators,Jewish administrators. In fact,
many of the laws relating to forexample, like Rosh Hashanah and
Yom Kippur being holidays in NewYork schools is because largely
of the Jewish faculty over time.
But I digress. Can you talk abit about some of the specifics
of what made you feelmarginalized as a as a Jewish
educator in these schools, or isthat? I don't want to throw
(06:23):
anyone under the bus, but whatcan you talk about? Yeah,
Unknown (06:26):
so I so that's the thing. Is that, you know, every
Jewish teacher in has adifferent experience within
their schools, because there areso many schools in New York
City. So you know, my personalexperience was really related
to, you know, a specific personin a specific situation. But
overall, I could say that themarginalization is that when you
(06:50):
show up to these spaces that areso called inclusive, and they're
not meaning a lot of thesetrainings were run by the DOE,
but not doe administrators, sothey hired people to come and do
these trainings, it wasn't thatthey were saying anything
particular. It was kind of morethe absence of what was being
talked about and this oppressoroppressed dynamic. So I can give
(07:12):
you another example of having toline up according to your white
privilege, and then having toform these affinity groups. So
I'm sitting at a table with allof these other white teachers
sharing our experiences, and I'mone of the only people who has
been bullied or teased becauseof my Jewish identity. None of
(07:33):
the other people at my table,the other, quote, unquote, white
teachers, had that experience,and that was kind of that wake
up moment, that feeling ofmarginalization, like I don't
belong in this space, and Idon't belong at those other
tables, right? And it got to thepoint where, like, two years
ago, I did another one of thesetrainings, and I finally said to
(07:54):
the facilitator, I said, Look,I'll sit at that table with the
white teachers, because theyunderstand, you know, I
understand how this work getsdone in these spaces, but I'm
not comfortable with thatanymore. And he appreciated that
I voiced that. So I definitelyhad these experiences. But I
don't want to make it seem like,you know, all over the New York
City public school system,there's this ideology that's
(08:16):
being pedaled down. It reallyvaries, I think, from space to
space, but the overallideologies of the oppressed and
oppressors and that kind ofideology is around, and it's
clear that Jews are not fittinginto that dynamic.
David Bryfman (08:32):
All right, so we are going pretty deep, pretty
quickly, into some pretty murkyterritory. Let's but let's you
and I take it for an assumptionand correct me if my assumption
is wrong, that you and I bothbelieve that diversity, equity,
inclusion as a concept is a goodthing in public school
education, that all people,regardless of their ethnicity,
race, religion, should be madeto feel welcome in the public
(08:54):
school environment.
Unknown (08:56):
Absolutely, that is exactly you know what I am
committed to doing and why I wasasked to speak at that panel.
And your
David Bryfman (09:04):
point here is that the DEI movement, so to
speak, or the DEI curriculumprofessional development, were
often adopted in particularly inpublic school environments, and
we now know this across thecountry, often failed or
omitted. We're not sure whetherit's intentional or implicit,
the Jews did not fit under thecategory of a diverse ethnic
(09:26):
group in American society, whichled to a whole lot of these
issues beginning to evolve
Unknown (09:30):
exactly and I absolutely said I believe in the
diversity and inclusion values,but I wasn't experiencing that
personally when I went to thesetrainings, and then
David Bryfman (09:44):
October 7 happens, and the dynamic begins
to change, and you no longer canremain silent with what's taking
place around you. So maybedescribe to the audience what
took place for you around andafter October 7, that led to
your so called away. In theseevents,
Unknown (10:01):
yeah, October 7, I would say for me, personally,
and I'm only speaking formyself. I'm not speaking on
behalf of the Department ofEducation or any organization.
For me, it was very personalawakening. Because not only did
I consider myself a progressiveeducator, an anti racist
educator, I mean, I really wentall in on of the this. I was
(10:23):
doing community organizing, youknow, where I live, I was full
in on this. And October 7 kindof really woke me up to what was
happening in the public schoolsystem, not just in New York
City, but really what we foundout, like you said, is really
kind of happening everywhere,because I started to talk to
more teachers, and we werehearing a lot of the same things
(10:46):
and sharing a lot of the samestories, where we had incidents
in our school where we felttargeted, where colleagues were
saying things or things thatwere showing up in lesson plans.
And so October 7, for me,personally, made me realize that
this is a problem is a lotbigger than me and my personal
experience. But around thebeginning of November, we
(11:09):
started to see union UFT membersorganize. This is there's a
caucus within our union calledmore, and they're a very
progressive caucus. And thenthere's a group of New York City
teachers not affiliated with theDOE, but you know, assuming many
of them are doe teachers calledNico, and they started to
organize a walkout, and that'sreally what got a lot of us
(11:33):
engaged. And we said, we have aproblem, and that's really what
kind of launched me in theforefront of speaking up and
saying, I can't do this and orthis can't happen. So I had met
the chancellor, actually,Chancellor banks, at this panel,
and then I followed up. I sentan email to him. I didn't hear
anything back. So that's when meand some other teachers decided
(11:56):
that we need to speak up,
David Bryfman (11:58):
all right, so I can skip right to the conclusion
here, where Shayna has becomeone of the leading voices in
fighting against anti semitismin New York public schools. But
before I get straight to thepunch line, let's go through
this in a bit more detail. Sodescribe to the audience what a
walkout actually is and whatit's intended to do.
Unknown (12:13):
So you know, over the years, there have been a variety
of different student walkoutsfor climate for gun safety, so
the idea is that students aroundNew York City, public and
private schools walk out oftheir classes. It's an act of
civil disobedience. Essentially,they walk out of their their
classes. They gather togetheroff site in protest, and
David Bryfman (12:37):
in general, that's probably a good example
of teaching young people freedomof speech and the right to
protest that of itself is a goodthing, I would assume, yeah, I'm
Unknown (12:45):
definitely not opposed to civil disobedience, and
students do have the right to dothat. Our issue was the adults
that were getting involved andpromoting this, and the
contractual obligations thatteachers have in terms of doing
political work on their schooltime, but also the materials
(13:08):
that they were publishing thatwere chanting about Free
Palestine from the river to thesea. We don't want Zionists
here. I don't have it all infront of me, but this is all
public knowledge. They've postedthis out there, and that, to me,
is a problem when you have kidsbeing encouraged to go out and
(13:28):
chant these things by educatorsthat they trust. And in fact, we
we do have evidence thatstudents who went with a teacher
who we don't know if the teacherwalked out, we don't know if the
teacher met them there washolding up a sign of a trash can
with the Star of David in it, aNew York City public school
student. And
David Bryfman (13:49):
just to be clear, at least for the initial
walkouts in New York publicschools, there were actually no
consequences, either for theteacher or for the students who
worked out. And I think one ofthe definitions of civil
disobedience means it needs tobe some form of consequence in
order for it to actually bedisobedient. And the students
were given a free pass on theseto attend these protests, these
walkouts, yeah. Well,
Unknown (14:09):
so that's, you know, I mean, that was kind of the
culture at my old school. It waskind of like, okay, like you're,
you know, we'll mark you late orwhatever. But I think what for
us, what we were focused on, isthe accountability piece that
what is anti semitism? What ispolitical activity? So the
schools can enforce the code howthey want. But is it okay for
(14:31):
New York City students andteachers to be promoting a
walkout that is promoting antisemitic ideas? And that's what
we were trying to get theChancellor's team to really
understand what is anti semitismand how it's showing up in the
form of anti Zionism in ourpublic schools.
David Bryfman (14:50):
So Shaina stands up with a few of her colleagues,
and obviously everybody says,Thanks for enlightening us, and
the whole situation changesstraight away, overnight. Now.
Unknown (14:59):
Yes, of course.
David Bryfman (15:01):
No joke. So what happens to you as a teacher, a
respected veteran teacher in thepublic schools, when you do
raise your voice to theseissues?
Unknown (15:08):
So you know, this is really my first time doing this
kind of work within the doe. Soit was definitely a learning
experience. We did find, Ipersonally found the
Chancellor's team to bereceptive. We had a press
conference on the steps oftweed, and shortly after, we
were able to get a meeting withthe Chancellor's team, with the
(15:32):
UJA, the Jewish educationproject, helping us get to that
table. I on our own, it wouldhave been very hard were the
worker bees in this largebureaucracy, but they did sit
down with us, and it was aproductive meeting. We laid out
our concerns, we gave evidence.
I handed over evidence to thedeputy chancellor of safety and
(15:56):
security of a girl who was beingtargeted and bullied online in a
high school some of the worstthings I've ever seen in my
life. And they were veryreceptive, and I felt like they
were open. That opened the doorto more meetings. And we we
tried as hard as we could asteachers to lay out our
concerns, to provide them withthe evidence that we could, to
(16:18):
show them this is a demonstratedproblem, and then Chancellor
came out with his meeting themoment plan, as many people
might know, which incorporatedfeedback that we asked for, not
everything, but it certainlyaddressed some of our concerns.
There's still a lot more thatneeds to get done, but it was a
starting point in gettingsystemic change, which is really
(16:41):
what we need.
David Bryfman (16:44):
Tell us a few of those stories. Tell us a few of
the things that you handed overas evidence. What you can share.
Because when you talk at a highlevel about the conflation of
anti semitism and anti Zionism,when you talk about teachers
encouraging a walkout, when youtalk about all the things that
you're speaking about, youinternalize that as one level of
understanding at the moment atwhich you began to personalize
(17:04):
these stories. And it wasn'tjust one, it wasn't just two.
There were literally dozens ofstories that you shared and
could continue sharing. It takeson a different tenor, because
you realize that each one ofthese stories is about an
individual an individual child,an individual student, an
individual teacher. So tell ussome of those stories, if you
can.
Unknown (17:22):
Yeah. So a lot of these stories, you know, have been
documented, and many of themhave been exposed in the media,
because the public deserves aright to know what's going on in
our schools. So you know, theexample of this girl in a high
school in Brooklyn, in class,kind of behind her back
students, girls would be sayingthings like, we're Hamas, we're
(17:45):
going to come and get you. Andthen they took it online and
used sexual violence threatsagainst her and targeted her on
Instagram that that was a veryegregious, you know, example, we
have teachers who are writinglesson plans about Aaron Bush
now, the protester who committedsuicide, who burned himself, to
(18:07):
what extent was this a turningpoint in the Israel Gaza war and
all of the links were about howawful Israel is, more lessons
like that the knock, butpresented as factual
information, not asking thestudents to come to conclusions
on anything. I personally had afriend who was in a school where
(18:29):
kids rioted protest. The DOEsays these kids were running
rampant through the school withred paint on their hands,
banging on the doors she'shiding. This is not Hillcrest.
This is a different school, myfriend, you know, scared.
Obviously we, many of us, arefamiliar with the Hillcrest
situation. And that was, again,one of the earlier incidents
(18:51):
back in November that really,really gave us momentum and the
urgency of what we're doing. Weget swastikas written on, you
know, in school bathrooms, kidsbeing targeted. A lot of stuff
is happening online, wherethey're, you know, fake
announcements for Jewish clubs,and they're targeting the Jewish
(19:11):
kids. I
David Bryfman (19:12):
guess what doesn't make sense to me is that
all of these incidents arereportable. So a kid, a kid or a
teacher, experiences one ofthese things, and you would
expect there's an official wayfor someone to actually, you
know, report on that particularevent. The students are then
suspended or expelled. Theteachers who, you know, teach
egregious curriculum arereprimanded or whatever it might
(19:33):
be, and that's an end to it,because, you know, this is a
school, and it's part of aninstitution, and there's a
system. Why didn't that happenstraight away? What? What's,
what's taking place here? And,you know, I don't want to. Maybe
I do. I'm not sure if this hadhappened to any other ethnic,
religious or racial group, theresponse would have been
different. So in your mind, Ithink maybe I'm wrong. We hope,
but I
Unknown (19:53):
don't. Unfortunately, that has not always been my
experience either. But that's agreat question. It's a great
question, because we still wantto know the answers. I mean,
we've been asking this question.
We you know, we think we havesome ideas why this is not
happening. So number one,parents are afraid. The number
one thing we hear is that theparents are afraid that there's
going to be retribution,especially in the high school
(20:15):
level, that kids are not goingto get college recommendations,
they're not going to get theschedule they want. So parents
are scared. In some cases,there's not a lot of other
Jewish students, so they don'twant to draw attention to their
child a lot of times, what Ifound in my last school, because
I will say, thankfully, you knowmy school, I've not experienced
(20:37):
anything like what I experiencedat my previous school. So kids
are a little skeptical thatanything is going to change.
Sometimes they're not sure thatif they speak up, it's going to
be worth it. They don't trustthat it's going to get taken
care of. So that happens a lot.
I mean, I definitely know of oneincident that was reported where
(20:58):
kids did go and they reported itto the guidance counselor, I
believe, and then, or the maybe,was the dean, but the student
never heard from the Dean again.
So people need training. That'skind of one of the things that
we have. We were talking to theDOE about the deans, the RFA,
the respect for all counselors.
These are people who are thereto respect the Chancellor's
(21:20):
regulations on this kind ofdiscrimination, they need to
have training on what antisemitism is in all of its forms.
We were guaranteed by Markrampersant that when there's a
swastika, it is dealt with. AndI, I have, we have seen that,
but that's not what we'redealing with anymore. It's not
just the swastikas. So that'sone piece of it, and that's kind
(21:43):
of the problem, in a way, isthat the alliance team that I
was working with kind of filledthis gap. People were coming to
us to report it because theyfelt safer doing that, and that
was how we were able to exposeand collect and understand the
level of what's happening in thepublic schools. The second point
that I want to make is that thereporting procedure is very
(22:07):
Byzantine. It's not very clearwhen I had to file my own
discrimination papers granted.
It was during COVID. It was veryconfusing about who to file
with, where to file. The DOE didjust roll out a reporting
hotline, which, you know, thoseof us who have been advocating
for accountability definitelysee that as a win. It's not a
perfect system, because teacherscan't report anonymously, but
(22:31):
parents and families can, andthat was something that parents
had been asking for so thathopefully will help with the
reporting problem. The thirdpart is oversight. Schools are
different, but most of the time,especially in the high school
level, teachers areprofessionals. They have
autonomy over their classroom,in their curriculum, because we
(22:54):
should be treated likeprofessionals, right?
Unfortunately, that leaves roomin some schools for these
lessons to slip through thecracks, and that is something I
think the Department ofEducation really needs to figure
out how to balance the autonomyof teachers, the trust in
teachers, but also to knowwhat's going on in their
(23:15):
classrooms. So
David Bryfman (23:17):
many questions for you, okay, do you believe
that the New York Public SchoolSystem is anti semitic.
Unknown (23:22):
I absolutely do not believe it is anti semitic. I do
believe there are systemicproblems within the Department
of Education, just like thereare in our larger society, and
it just mirrors that. But Idon't think the leadership is
anti semitic. That's I don't, Idon't hold by that. I don't just
(23:43):
believe that the whole system isanti semitic, but there are
problems, and there, there aresome major problems that
absolutely need to be addressed.
And I think there are blindspots when it comes to anti
semitism. And I think, I dothink that does have to do with
leadership. And you mentionedthe Jewish teachers are
foundational to the Departmentof Education, if you look at the
(24:04):
leadership positions, not alwaysthe case. So who's making the
decisions? Who's designing thetraining? Are there Jews
involved in that? That's whatthat was, again, some of the
questions that we tried to getthe Department of Education to
think about to help improve thesituation, not to admonish them,
but to say, where can we dobetter? You know, where are your
(24:27):
blind spots?
David Bryfman (24:29):
I've heard some teachers in public schools,
especially those who teachpolitics, global history, social
studies, say that I need toavoid October 7 and what's
taking place in Israel,Palestine, Gaza. It's just too
complicated. I can't possiblyget it right, therefore I'm not
going to talk about it at all.
And they'll, they'll talk aboutRussia and Ukraine, because
that's a heck of a lot easier.
(24:49):
It's fascinating that teachersare, I think, taking this stance
because of all of these concernsthat they have, maybe they're
being directed to avoid it.
Maybe they feel like they can'twin, or they can.
Unknown (30:00):
Spaces, because the kids need them, they need
support, and they need teacherswho can support them through
this time.
David Bryfman (30:07):
Shaina, I'm going to ask you a question you can
choose to ignore it. Have youlost or have you strengthened
your commitment to public schooleducation? I mean, I'm asking
this question because I'm goingto guess that it's crossed your
mind that it could be a heck ofa lot easier for you to go work
for a Jewish Day School. And I'msure some Jewish day schools
have tried to recruit you aswell, and that your state firm
to New York public schooleducation. So talked a bit about
(30:29):
your commitment to public schooleducation, yeah.
Unknown (30:31):
Well, I would say that I would love a tuition break.
That would be lovely, but I am aproduct of public schools. My
mother was a public schoolteacher as well. And I think
more than ever we need Jewishstudents and Jewish teachers in
our public schools. You know,this is a big conversation that
is happening on all these chats,you know, should that all the
(30:53):
Jews go to the private schools,you know? And I believe we need
to be in these spaces. This iswhere some kids meet a Jewish
person for the first time. So Iam fully committed to public
education. I think it every kidin New York City deserves a
quality education. And thebeauty of it is that you are
learning in a diverseenvironment and engaging. And I
(31:16):
really believe that oureducation system, like my
training. I went to teacherscollege. It's a social justice
program that I was fully in. I'mgoing to be a social studies
teacher for social justice. AndI really had that shift that
it's not my job to teach thesekids to be social justice. You
know, warriors, I want my kidsto be empowered, yes, but I want
(31:38):
them to believe in liberalvalues of democracy, of freedom,
of equality of rights, and thathas to happen in our public
schools. We cannot see thisspace. We are fighting against
Nazi like ideology in ourschools, misinformation,
disinformation, like I said, youknow, just presenting kids with
(32:01):
one side of the story. We can'tsee those spaces. So I think
more than ever, not just Jewishteachers need to stay there. But
I've said this before to anyonewho will listen to me, is that
the Jewish education space, theJewish Agency space, has to
invest in our public schoolsbecause a majority of Jewish
(32:22):
kids in this country are not inthese schools. They are in
public schools. So we have toremember that Jewish education
happens. What meaning I'mteaching Jewish history
tomorrow. Actually, my lessontomorrow is about the Jewish
nation and the Jewish people andthe attachment to Israel and the
Assyrian captivity and how thatimpacted them. I insert that
(32:44):
because I want them tounderstand. And then later, next
week, I'm going to follow upwith a lesson about Cyrus and
use the book of Ezra and othersources to take a look at and
corroborate history. So wecannot see this space to people
who do have agendas. Andunfortunately, there are those
people. There are a lot ofamazing public school teachers
(33:04):
out there that I've worked with.
Most of them, almost 100% ofthem have been fantastic. But
unfortunately, we know thatthere are teachers out there who
think they're doing the rightthing, but it's really, it
really is scary about what'shappening. I
David Bryfman (33:18):
want to ask you another question, and then we
could just digress and keeptalking, but our listeners
eventually need to turn offtheir podcast and go continue
cooking dinner. I want to talk abit about objectivity,
especially as a social studiesteacher, like, what you just
said is not objective. Likeyou're bringing your personal
viewpoints, your personalpieces, to your curriculum, to
your outlines. Like, is it sucha thing as an objective social
(33:38):
studies teacher, is that whatwe're looking for is
subjectivity, something weshould just embrace. And does it
only work when we agree withsomeone's subjectivity and it's
when we get upset with the otherside, so to speak, then it
becomes, oh, no, all historyneeds to be objective,
Unknown (33:52):
right? Oh, I mean, see, that's part of the challenge. Is
that there are facts and there'sfacts that can't be changed, but
there are narratives, andnarratives are often not based
on facts. They're based onfeelings, but they also play a
role in how we understand thepast. So you know, for example,
there's a lot of debate withinthe Jewish education space. And
(34:16):
you know, K through 12 publicschools, should we teach dual
narrative? Should we teach thePalestinian narrative. And some
people think no, becausenarratives are not necessarily
factual. So there's differentopinions about that, and
there's, I've seen differentways to do it, but this is the
challenge. I fully believe, youknow, that we should embrace
hard history. So I know, youknow we talked about the DEI
(34:38):
before. I like the idea is notthe ideology, right? The same
thing with this hard historyconcept. We cannot shy away from
hard history. It is our job toteach students how to understand
the two sides of a conflict bypresenting them with the facts
and, in cases, the narratives.
Now here's the question, though.
(35:00):
Kind of what you brought up, wewould never, ever ask if Hitler
was a good leader, right? Wewould never ask our students to
debate if slavery was good orbad. We have to have things that
we agree on in history that arebad or in the past. And that is
where I think it the trainingcomes in, the training comes in,
(35:22):
and having those conversationsas a department, and having the
administrator, you know, the orthe teacher leader, have that
training to navigate that and totrain the teachers on this.
Because you can get it reallywrong and you can get it right.
And I'll admit I made mistakesalong the way, you know, because
there are things that I believeare are important, that students
(35:44):
need to know. And then I said,You know what? Maybe it's a
little bit too leading, but thisis one of the challenges of
being a social studies teacher.
But I can tell you know, forexample, this, you know,
examples of is Israel committinga genocide. You see a lot of
those lesson plans or ethniccleansing, they're using the
terminology ethnic cleansing ina misleading way. And the
(36:05):
question I would have to thatteacher is, well, you know,
what's your agenda here? Youknow, what's the intention,
what's your learning goals? Ithink that's kind of the
questions we need to be askingthese teachers, because is it to
get the students to think acertain way, and we don't want
the students to come awaythinking that ethnic cleansing
is a good thing, right? Likethat's not on the table, but we
(36:26):
need to get them to understandhow it's happened when it's
happened. We have to have thoseconversations.
David Bryfman (36:33):
I'll tell you.
For me, one of the most complexphrases in recent months has
been the right side of history.
The people come to me sayingwe're teaching about the
genocide in Gaza because this isthe right side of history. And
just like you said before, whenwe're teaching about the Civil
Rights in New York public schoolsystems, we weren't bringing in
the Ku Klux Klan to speak aboutthe other, so called other side,
and giving them legitimacysomewhere in this whole
(36:55):
discussion, in this whole pastyear. And I think one of the
biggest pain points we face asJewish community is we've lost
control over many aspects ofwhat you've eloquently put as
not just the narrative. We'velost control over some of the
facts as well. And in our schoolsystem, it's being manipulated
by some against Jewish students.
And I'm just like, so thankfulthat someone like yourself is
able to stand up and literally,to highlight what needs to be
(37:17):
done and your your indicationsbefore about some of the
incremental changes that you'vemade, sometimes even impacting
the system as a whole, are trulyremarkable. And I think you
should take a moment and pauseand just like reflect on what
you've been able to teach. Assomeone said to me, as just a
teacher, as if just a teacher isa minimization of someone's
work. So really credit to youand all of the work. You didn't
(37:40):
have to do this. You didn't haveto stand up. No,
Unknown (37:43):
I didn't, but I have a hard time staying quiet. It's
always been one of my quote,unquote, bad qualities. But I do
want to say, and I want you knowthat it's not just me. You know,
I have no problem raising myvoice. I'm really good at kind
of galvanizing, but there are alot of people who are doing this
work day in and day out. I'm notgoing to name them all publicly,
(38:05):
but the women of the New YorkCity public Alliance who are
leading that, Karen and tovo,for example, I mean, they are
putting in hours ofuncompensated work. There's
other teachers, parents. We'vehad students, and the beautiful
thing now is that we'reconnecting to other teachers
around the country, and it tooka maybe a year, but the movement
(38:26):
is growing, and I'm I'm hopeful,but I know we have a lot to do,
and it can't just be one teacherhere or one teacher there. We
need the Jewish community to getinvolved in their local
districts especially supportthe, you know, the public
schools, and this is a societalproblem, because our public
(38:47):
schools, you know, they trainfuture leaders. So I appreciate,
you know, I appreciate that, butI really am appreciative also,
of all the people that have thatare doing this work and that
have inspired me to keep goingwhen we hit those roadblocks.
David Bryfman (39:03):
Shana, is there an educator in your life that
you're able to pay tribute tosomeone who's helped create you
into the incredible role modelthat you are today? Oh,
Unknown (39:11):
thank you, absolutely.
Mr. Davies, you keep saying,call me Mark, but Mr. Davies was
like the cool social studiesteacher. Kind of look like Marty
McFly, but he actually wasn't myclassroom teacher, but he was my
Amnesty International advisor.
So when I was 15, I gotinterested in Amnesty
International through theTibetan human rights issue, and
(39:34):
Mr. Davies advised me for threeyears in this club, and he
really made me feel like myvoice mattered. He believed in
me, he coached me, but he let melead, and I absolutely would not
be here today if it were not forMr. Davies, and he really
inspired me to become a teacherand to be the kind of teacher
(39:55):
that I needed at that timebecause I was bullied in eighth
grade for being Jewish. Ishactually really bad, like I was
physically accosted, and not oneteacher spoke up that I knew of.
I didn't hear of any teacherspeaking up. One teacher once
asked me if I was okay, but Inever felt like I had a teacher
on my side until Mr. Davies
David Bryfman (40:16):
Shaina. Thank you. Thank you for joining us on
adapting. Thank you for all thework that you do. Thank you for
your commitment to the studentsof New York and beyond, and your
voice is being heard loud andclear. And I just wish you. And
now to be totally transparent,we're working in a similar space
now to make sure that we can, wecan bring about systemic changes
to what you're talking about,but the teachers are really the
(40:38):
essence of all of the educationtaking place, and without people
like yourself, we couldn't evenbe dreaming of a better world in
which to live. So really, thankyou so much for all that you do,
Unknown (40:46):
absolutely. And I'm just gonna add in there, if I
can, that I really want to thankthe Jewish education project.
Also the New York EducationInitiative has really given me
hope that we can make changethrough working together as a
Jewish community, and so youknow that that work that the
Jewish education project hasbeen doing is really going to be
(41:08):
essential to making the changeswe need.
David Bryfman (41:10):
Today's episode of adapting was produced by Dina
nussenbaum and Miranda Lapides.
The show's executive producersare myself, Karen Cummins and
nessa lieben. Our show isengineered and edited by Nathan
j1 of njv media. If you enjoyedtoday's episode of adapting,
please share it with a friend,especially someone who might
send their child to publicschool, because I think they
need to hear about the work thatShane is doing, and if there are
any problems occurring withthem, that they know how to
(41:32):
reach out to others to try andbring about some change in their
schools as well. To learn moreabout the Jewish education
project, visit us at Jewishedproject.org, there you can
learn more about our missionhistory and our staff. We're a
proud partner of UGA Federationof New York. Thank you always
for listening today. You.
The shine a light on anti semitism. Civic Courage
Award is now open fornominations. This is your
opportunity to recognize someonewho is actively combating the
rising tide of anti semitism.
This prestigious awardcelebrates individuals across
eight categories, includingstudents and educators, offering
a $2,000 prize and nationalrecognition. If you have someone
to nominate, visit shine thelight on.com forward slash
(00:22):
awards, to nominate someonewhose activism spreads light by
November 25 Hi everybody, andwe're recording today's episode
of adapting on october 29 2024and today's a bit of a change in
direction for some of ourprevious conversations, we're
talking to a Jewish educator ina public school environment who,
(00:43):
especially in the last year, hasdecided to take a stand against
some of the incidents of antisemitic or perceived anti
semitism by by teachers andother students in her school,
and also been able to makesystemic change where necessary
in the New York Public SchoolSystem. Why is this so important
for all of us to be talkingabout, because the majority of
Jewish youth in North Americaand dare I say, around the
(01:05):
world, attend schools in theirin their public sphere, and that
is where our educators arefeeling many of the issues that
are taking place, especially ina post October 7 world they're
often scared of what they'retalking about and how to talk
about the issues, especially forhistory and social studies
teachers like, how is itpossible to be objective on
these issues? This is the fabricof the world in which we live
(01:26):
in, and I think as a Jewishcommunity, we need to be as
committed to the education ofall of our students, no matter
where they are receiving it, tobe aware of the challenges that
people are having, and also toreally shine a light on some of
the real success stories whereit's taking place for individual
educators who are really makinga difference, for not just the
Jewish students in theirschools, but for all students.
(01:47):
And remembering importantly, andShaina talks about this for
many, many students, the firsttime they will meet and have
interactions with a Jewishstudent or a Jewish educator is
first and foremost in theirpublic school environment. So
this episode is one which speaksabout specific examples, but I
think it's got broadimplications for all of us, and
we can all gain something fromthis really remarkable,
(02:07):
impressive conversation withShayna Dworkin. So thank you, as
always, for listening today,this is adapting the future of
Jewish education, a podcast fromthe Jewish education project
where we explore the bigquestions, challenges and
successes that define Jewisheducation. I'm David breifman.
(02:32):
Shayna Dworkin is a 15 yearveteran social studies teacher
in the New York public schoolsystem, and I'm not going to
give too much more of a bio,because as soon as we get to
chatting, you'll understandexactly why I've asked Shayna to
join us here on adapting. SoShaina, thanks so much for
joining us.
Unknown (02:46):
Thank you so much for inviting me. And we really
excited to be here.
David Bryfman (02:50):
So just tell the audience a bit about your your
current job, I mean the officialjob that you actually do. Yeah.
So
Unknown (02:56):
I am a New York City public school teacher. I teach
in a small public school, and Iteach ninth grade global
history, and I'm also theadvisor of the Jewish student
union. And
David Bryfman (03:05):
how long have you been doing that work?
Unknown (03:07):
I have been in the system for almost 20 years now.
David Bryfman (03:11):
So you and I met each other first at a at a
public forum where you weretalking about almost anything
other than social studies andand Global Studies in a school.
So talk to us a bit about whatother roles you've taken on
recently and how that's come tofruition.
Unknown (03:27):
You know, I'm a social studies teacher by training, but
one of my passions as aneducator is creating inclusive
classroom spaces, and so that'swhat brought me into that
conversation where I met you,and it was right after October
7, but the conversations werealready brewing about anti
semitism in schools, andpersonally, I spent a lot of
(03:50):
time doing diversity and equityinitiatives, leading the equity
team at one of the largest highschools in the country. The
conversations were notnecessarily focused on anti
semitism, but it's always beensomething that's been important
to me specifically.
David Bryfman (04:06):
So we'll talk a bit about what happened after
October 7. But the reality isfor you, your your Jewish
awakening as a social studiesteacher in a public school was
prior to prior to that day. Sotalk a bit about some of the
things that raise your ownconsciousness about being a
Jewish educator in a publicschool.
Unknown (04:24):
Yeah, that's right. So my Jewish identity was always
driving my work for inclusiveclassrooms and for the values
that are centered in diversityinitiatives. So I was doing
trainings through the Departmentof Education as a lead social
studies teacher and culturallyresponsive education. I went to
a training called courageousconversations about how to have,
(04:47):
you know, these difficultconversations, and I started to
notice that anti semitism wasnever part of the conversation.
In fact, at one of the trainingsthat I went to, the facilitator
was talking aboutCharlottesville. All and how,
you know, awful it was. He nevermentioned Jews or anti semitism.
And I went up to him after, andI said, you know, I understand,
(05:09):
you know, we're here to talkabout race, but there was an
opportunity to mention that. Andhe was just like, that's not
what we're here for. So that waspart of, you know, this growing
awareness. And then,unfortunately, I had a bad
experience with an administratorwho specifically targeted me
because of my identity and myJewish identity. And that was a
real personal wake up moment,and started to make me think
(05:32):
about what's going on in myschool with the students in that
in my particular school setting.
So it was kind of a slowawakening, I would say, before
October 7, and an awareness thatin these kind of progressive
spaces, I couldn't really showup as my full self. Nobody was
saying no Zionists allowed, oranything about Jews not being
welcomed. But there was anundertone where I just didn't
(05:56):
feel like I could be comfortableanymore.
David Bryfman (06:01):
So the New York public school system has a long
history of Jewish educators,Jewish administrators. In fact,
many of the laws relating to forexample, like Rosh Hashanah and
Yom Kippur being holidays in NewYork schools is because largely
of the Jewish faculty over time.
But I digress. Can you talk abit about some of the specifics
of what made you feelmarginalized as a as a Jewish
educator in these schools, or isthat? I don't want to throw
(06:23):
anyone under the bus, but whatcan you talk about? Yeah,
Unknown (06:26):
so I so that's the thing. Is that, you know, every
Jewish teacher in has adifferent experience within
their schools, because there areso many schools in New York
City. So you know, my personalexperience was really related
to, you know, a specific personin a specific situation. But
overall, I could say that themarginalization is that when you
(06:50):
show up to these spaces that areso called inclusive, and they're
not meaning a lot of thesetrainings were run by the DOE,
but not doe administrators, sothey hired people to come and do
these trainings, it wasn't thatthey were saying anything
particular. It was kind of morethe absence of what was being
talked about and this oppressoroppressed dynamic. So I can give
(07:12):
you another example of having toline up according to your white
privilege, and then having toform these affinity groups. So
I'm sitting at a table with allof these other white teachers
sharing our experiences, and I'mone of the only people who has
been bullied or teased becauseof my Jewish identity. None of
(07:33):
the other people at my table,the other, quote, unquote, white
teachers, had that experience,and that was kind of that wake
up moment, that feeling ofmarginalization, like I don't
belong in this space, and Idon't belong at those other
tables, right? And it got to thepoint where, like, two years
ago, I did another one of thesetrainings, and I finally said to
(07:54):
the facilitator, I said, Look,I'll sit at that table with the
white teachers, because theyunderstand, you know, I
understand how this work getsdone in these spaces, but I'm
not comfortable with thatanymore. And he appreciated that
I voiced that. So I definitelyhad these experiences. But I
don't want to make it seem like,you know, all over the New York
City public school system,there's this ideology that's
(08:16):
being pedaled down. It reallyvaries, I think, from space to
space, but the overallideologies of the oppressed and
oppressors and that kind ofideology is around, and it's
clear that Jews are not fittinginto that dynamic.
David Bryfman (08:32):
All right, so we are going pretty deep, pretty
quickly, into some pretty murkyterritory. Let's but let's you
and I take it for an assumptionand correct me if my assumption
is wrong, that you and I bothbelieve that diversity, equity,
inclusion as a concept is a goodthing in public school
education, that all people,regardless of their ethnicity,
race, religion, should be madeto feel welcome in the public
(08:54):
school environment.
Unknown (08:56):
Absolutely, that is exactly you know what I am
committed to doing and why I wasasked to speak at that panel.
And your
David Bryfman (09:04):
point here is that the DEI movement, so to
speak, or the DEI curriculumprofessional development, were
often adopted in particularly inpublic school environments, and
we now know this across thecountry, often failed or
omitted. We're not sure whetherit's intentional or implicit,
the Jews did not fit under thecategory of a diverse ethnic
(09:26):
group in American society, whichled to a whole lot of these
issues beginning to evolve
Unknown (09:30):
exactly and I absolutely said I believe in the
diversity and inclusion values,but I wasn't experiencing that
personally when I went to thesetrainings, and then
David Bryfman (09:44):
October 7 happens, and the dynamic begins
to change, and you no longer canremain silent with what's taking
place around you. So maybedescribe to the audience what
took place for you around andafter October 7, that led to
your so called away. In theseevents,
Unknown (10:01):
yeah, October 7, I would say for me, personally,
and I'm only speaking formyself. I'm not speaking on
behalf of the Department ofEducation or any organization.
For me, it was very personalawakening. Because not only did
I consider myself a progressiveeducator, an anti racist
educator, I mean, I really wentall in on of the this. I was
(10:23):
doing community organizing, youknow, where I live, I was full
in on this. And October 7 kindof really woke me up to what was
happening in the public schoolsystem, not just in New York
City, but really what we foundout, like you said, is really
kind of happening everywhere,because I started to talk to
more teachers, and we werehearing a lot of the same things
(10:46):
and sharing a lot of the samestories, where we had incidents
in our school where we felttargeted, where colleagues were
saying things or things thatwere showing up in lesson plans.
And so October 7, for me,personally, made me realize that
this is a problem is a lotbigger than me and my personal
experience. But around thebeginning of November, we
(11:09):
started to see union UFT membersorganize. This is there's a
caucus within our union calledmore, and they're a very
progressive caucus. And thenthere's a group of New York City
teachers not affiliated with theDOE, but you know, assuming many
of them are doe teachers calledNico, and they started to
organize a walkout, and that'sreally what got a lot of us
(11:33):
engaged. And we said, we have aproblem, and that's really what
kind of launched me in theforefront of speaking up and
saying, I can't do this and orthis can't happen. So I had met
the chancellor, actually,Chancellor banks, at this panel,
and then I followed up. I sentan email to him. I didn't hear
anything back. So that's when meand some other teachers decided
(11:56):
that we need to speak up,
David Bryfman (11:58):
all right, so I can skip right to the conclusion
here, where Shayna has becomeone of the leading voices in
fighting against anti semitismin New York public schools. But
before I get straight to thepunch line, let's go through
this in a bit more detail. Sodescribe to the audience what a
walkout actually is and whatit's intended to do.
Unknown (12:13):
So you know, over the years, there have been a variety
of different student walkoutsfor climate for gun safety, so
the idea is that students aroundNew York City, public and
private schools walk out oftheir classes. It's an act of
civil disobedience. Essentially,they walk out of their their
classes. They gather togetheroff site in protest, and
David Bryfman (12:37):
in general, that's probably a good example
of teaching young people freedomof speech and the right to
protest that of itself is a goodthing, I would assume, yeah, I'm
Unknown (12:45):
definitely not opposed to civil disobedience, and
students do have the right to dothat. Our issue was the adults
that were getting involved andpromoting this, and the
contractual obligations thatteachers have in terms of doing
political work on their schooltime, but also the materials
(13:08):
that they were publishing thatwere chanting about Free
Palestine from the river to thesea. We don't want Zionists
here. I don't have it all infront of me, but this is all
public knowledge. They've postedthis out there, and that, to me,
is a problem when you have kidsbeing encouraged to go out and
(13:28):
chant these things by educatorsthat they trust. And in fact, we
we do have evidence thatstudents who went with a teacher
who we don't know if the teacherwalked out, we don't know if the
teacher met them there washolding up a sign of a trash can
with the Star of David in it, aNew York City public school
student. And
David Bryfman (13:49):
just to be clear, at least for the initial
walkouts in New York publicschools, there were actually no
consequences, either for theteacher or for the students who
worked out. And I think one ofthe definitions of civil
disobedience means it needs tobe some form of consequence in
order for it to actually bedisobedient. And the students
were given a free pass on theseto attend these protests, these
walkouts, yeah. Well,
Unknown (14:09):
so that's, you know, I mean, that was kind of the
culture at my old school. It waskind of like, okay, like you're,
you know, we'll mark you late orwhatever. But I think what for
us, what we were focused on, isthe accountability piece that
what is anti semitism? What ispolitical activity? So the
schools can enforce the code howthey want. But is it okay for
(14:31):
New York City students andteachers to be promoting a
walkout that is promoting antisemitic ideas? And that's what
we were trying to get theChancellor's team to really
understand what is anti semitismand how it's showing up in the
form of anti Zionism in ourpublic schools.
David Bryfman (14:50):
So Shaina stands up with a few of her colleagues,
and obviously everybody says,Thanks for enlightening us, and
the whole situation changesstraight away, overnight. Now.
Unknown (14:59):
Yes, of course.
David Bryfman (15:01):
No joke. So what happens to you as a teacher, a
respected veteran teacher in thepublic schools, when you do
raise your voice to theseissues?
Unknown (15:08):
So you know, this is really my first time doing this
kind of work within the doe. Soit was definitely a learning
experience. We did find, Ipersonally found the
Chancellor's team to bereceptive. We had a press
conference on the steps oftweed, and shortly after, we
were able to get a meeting withthe Chancellor's team, with the
(15:32):
UJA, the Jewish educationproject, helping us get to that
table. I on our own, it wouldhave been very hard were the
worker bees in this largebureaucracy, but they did sit
down with us, and it was aproductive meeting. We laid out
our concerns, we gave evidence.
I handed over evidence to thedeputy chancellor of safety and
(15:56):
security of a girl who was beingtargeted and bullied online in a
high school some of the worstthings I've ever seen in my
life. And they were veryreceptive, and I felt like they
were open. That opened the doorto more meetings. And we we
tried as hard as we could asteachers to lay out our
concerns, to provide them withthe evidence that we could, to
(16:18):
show them this is a demonstratedproblem, and then Chancellor
came out with his meeting themoment plan, as many people
might know, which incorporatedfeedback that we asked for, not
everything, but it certainlyaddressed some of our concerns.
There's still a lot more thatneeds to get done, but it was a
starting point in gettingsystemic change, which is really
(16:41):
what we need.
David Bryfman (16:44):
Tell us a few of those stories. Tell us a few of
the things that you handed overas evidence. What you can share.
Because when you talk at a highlevel about the conflation of
anti semitism and anti Zionism,when you talk about teachers
encouraging a walkout, when youtalk about all the things that
you're speaking about, youinternalize that as one level of
understanding at the moment atwhich you began to personalize
(17:04):
these stories. And it wasn'tjust one, it wasn't just two.
There were literally dozens ofstories that you shared and
could continue sharing. It takeson a different tenor, because
you realize that each one ofthese stories is about an
individual an individual child,an individual student, an
individual teacher. So tell ussome of those stories, if you
can.
Unknown (17:22):
Yeah. So a lot of these stories, you know, have been
documented, and many of themhave been exposed in the media,
because the public deserves aright to know what's going on in
our schools. So you know, theexample of this girl in a high
school in Brooklyn, in class,kind of behind her back
students, girls would be sayingthings like, we're Hamas, we're
(17:45):
going to come and get you. Andthen they took it online and
used sexual violence threatsagainst her and targeted her on
Instagram that that was a veryegregious, you know, example, we
have teachers who are writinglesson plans about Aaron Bush
now, the protester who committedsuicide, who burned himself, to
(18:07):
what extent was this a turningpoint in the Israel Gaza war and
all of the links were about howawful Israel is, more lessons
like that the knock, butpresented as factual
information, not asking thestudents to come to conclusions
on anything. I personally had afriend who was in a school where
(18:29):
kids rioted protest. The DOEsays these kids were running
rampant through the school withred paint on their hands,
banging on the doors she'shiding. This is not Hillcrest.
This is a different school, myfriend, you know, scared.
Obviously we, many of us, arefamiliar with the Hillcrest
situation. And that was, again,one of the earlier incidents
(18:51):
back in November that really,really gave us momentum and the
urgency of what we're doing. Weget swastikas written on, you
know, in school bathrooms, kidsbeing targeted. A lot of stuff
is happening online, wherethey're, you know, fake
announcements for Jewish clubs,and they're targeting the Jewish
(19:11):
kids. I
David Bryfman (19:12):
guess what doesn't make sense to me is that
all of these incidents arereportable. So a kid, a kid or a
teacher, experiences one ofthese things, and you would
expect there's an official wayfor someone to actually, you
know, report on that particularevent. The students are then
suspended or expelled. Theteachers who, you know, teach
egregious curriculum arereprimanded or whatever it might
(19:33):
be, and that's an end to it,because, you know, this is a
school, and it's part of aninstitution, and there's a
system. Why didn't that happenstraight away? What? What's,
what's taking place here? And,you know, I don't want to. Maybe
I do. I'm not sure if this hadhappened to any other ethnic,
religious or racial group, theresponse would have been
different. So in your mind, Ithink maybe I'm wrong. We hope,
but I
Unknown (19:53):
don't. Unfortunately, that has not always been my
experience either. But that's agreat question. It's a great
question, because we still wantto know the answers. I mean,
we've been asking this question.
We you know, we think we havesome ideas why this is not
happening. So number one,parents are afraid. The number
one thing we hear is that theparents are afraid that there's
going to be retribution,especially in the high school
(20:15):
level, that kids are not goingto get college recommendations,
they're not going to get theschedule they want. So parents
are scared. In some cases,there's not a lot of other
Jewish students, so they don'twant to draw attention to their
child a lot of times, what Ifound in my last school, because
I will say, thankfully, you knowmy school, I've not experienced
(20:37):
anything like what I experiencedat my previous school. So kids
are a little skeptical thatanything is going to change.
Sometimes they're not sure thatif they speak up, it's going to
be worth it. They don't trustthat it's going to get taken
care of. So that happens a lot.
I mean, I definitely know of oneincident that was reported where
(20:58):
kids did go and they reported itto the guidance counselor, I
believe, and then, or the maybe,was the dean, but the student
never heard from the Dean again.
So people need training. That'skind of one of the things that
we have. We were talking to theDOE about the deans, the RFA,
the respect for all counselors.
These are people who are thereto respect the Chancellor's
(21:20):
regulations on this kind ofdiscrimination, they need to
have training on what antisemitism is in all of its forms.
We were guaranteed by Markrampersant that when there's a
swastika, it is dealt with. AndI, I have, we have seen that,
but that's not what we'redealing with anymore. It's not
just the swastikas. So that'sone piece of it, and that's kind
(21:43):
of the problem, in a way, isthat the alliance team that I
was working with kind of filledthis gap. People were coming to
us to report it because theyfelt safer doing that, and that
was how we were able to exposeand collect and understand the
level of what's happening in thepublic schools. The second point
that I want to make is that thereporting procedure is very
(22:07):
Byzantine. It's not very clearwhen I had to file my own
discrimination papers granted.
It was during COVID. It was veryconfusing about who to file
with, where to file. The DOE didjust roll out a reporting
hotline, which, you know, thoseof us who have been advocating
for accountability definitelysee that as a win. It's not a
perfect system, because teacherscan't report anonymously, but
(22:31):
parents and families can, andthat was something that parents
had been asking for so thathopefully will help with the
reporting problem. The thirdpart is oversight. Schools are
different, but most of the time,especially in the high school
level, teachers areprofessionals. They have
autonomy over their classroom,in their curriculum, because we
(22:54):
should be treated likeprofessionals, right?
Unfortunately, that leaves roomin some schools for these
lessons to slip through thecracks, and that is something I
think the Department ofEducation really needs to figure
out how to balance the autonomyof teachers, the trust in
teachers, but also to knowwhat's going on in their
(23:15):
classrooms. So
David Bryfman (23:17):
many questions for you, okay, do you believe
that the New York Public SchoolSystem is anti semitic.
Unknown (23:22):
I absolutely do not believe it is anti semitic. I do
believe there are systemicproblems within the Department
of Education, just like thereare in our larger society, and
it just mirrors that. But Idon't think the leadership is
anti semitic. That's I don't, Idon't hold by that. I don't just
(23:43):
believe that the whole system isanti semitic, but there are
problems, and there, there aresome major problems that
absolutely need to be addressed.
And I think there are blindspots when it comes to anti
semitism. And I think, I dothink that does have to do with
leadership. And you mentionedthe Jewish teachers are
foundational to the Departmentof Education, if you look at the
(24:04):
leadership positions, not alwaysthe case. So who's making the
decisions? Who's designing thetraining? Are there Jews
involved in that? That's whatthat was, again, some of the
questions that we tried to getthe Department of Education to
think about to help improve thesituation, not to admonish them,
but to say, where can we dobetter? You know, where are your
(24:27):
blind spots?
David Bryfman (24:29):
I've heard some teachers in public schools,
especially those who teachpolitics, global history, social
studies, say that I need toavoid October 7 and what's
taking place in Israel,Palestine, Gaza. It's just too
complicated. I can't possiblyget it right, therefore I'm not
going to talk about it at all.
And they'll, they'll talk aboutRussia and Ukraine, because
that's a heck of a lot easier.
(24:49):
It's fascinating that teachersare, I think, taking this stance
because of all of these concernsthat they have, maybe they're
being directed to avoid it.
Maybe they feel like they can'twin, or they can.
Unknown (30:00):
Spaces, because the kids need them, they need
support, and they need teacherswho can support them through
this time.
David Bryfman (30:07):
Shaina, I'm going to ask you a question you can
choose to ignore it. Have youlost or have you strengthened
your commitment to public schooleducation? I mean, I'm asking
this question because I'm goingto guess that it's crossed your
mind that it could be a heck ofa lot easier for you to go work
for a Jewish Day School. And I'msure some Jewish day schools
have tried to recruit you aswell, and that your state firm
to New York public schooleducation. So talked a bit about
(30:29):
your commitment to public schooleducation, yeah.
Unknown (30:31):
Well, I would say that I would love a tuition break.
That would be lovely, but I am aproduct of public schools. My
mother was a public schoolteacher as well. And I think
more than ever we need Jewishstudents and Jewish teachers in
our public schools. You know,this is a big conversation that
is happening on all these chats,you know, should that all the
(30:53):
Jews go to the private schools,you know? And I believe we need
to be in these spaces. This iswhere some kids meet a Jewish
person for the first time. So Iam fully committed to public
education. I think it every kidin New York City deserves a
quality education. And thebeauty of it is that you are
learning in a diverseenvironment and engaging. And I
(31:16):
really believe that oureducation system, like my
training. I went to teacherscollege. It's a social justice
program that I was fully in. I'mgoing to be a social studies
teacher for social justice. AndI really had that shift that
it's not my job to teach thesekids to be social justice. You
know, warriors, I want my kidsto be empowered, yes, but I want
(31:38):
them to believe in liberalvalues of democracy, of freedom,
of equality of rights, and thathas to happen in our public
schools. We cannot see thisspace. We are fighting against
Nazi like ideology in ourschools, misinformation,
disinformation, like I said, youknow, just presenting kids with
(32:01):
one side of the story. We can'tsee those spaces. So I think
more than ever, not just Jewishteachers need to stay there. But
I've said this before to anyonewho will listen to me, is that
the Jewish education space, theJewish Agency space, has to
invest in our public schoolsbecause a majority of Jewish
(32:22):
kids in this country are not inthese schools. They are in
public schools. So we have toremember that Jewish education
happens. What meaning I'mteaching Jewish history
tomorrow. Actually, my lessontomorrow is about the Jewish
nation and the Jewish people andthe attachment to Israel and the
Assyrian captivity and how thatimpacted them. I insert that
(32:44):
because I want them tounderstand. And then later, next
week, I'm going to follow upwith a lesson about Cyrus and
use the book of Ezra and othersources to take a look at and
corroborate history. So wecannot see this space to people
who do have agendas. Andunfortunately, there are those
people. There are a lot ofamazing public school teachers
(33:04):
out there that I've worked with.
Most of them, almost 100% ofthem have been fantastic. But
unfortunately, we know thatthere are teachers out there who
think they're doing the rightthing, but it's really, it
really is scary about what'shappening. I
David Bryfman (33:18):
want to ask you another question, and then we
could just digress and keeptalking, but our listeners
eventually need to turn offtheir podcast and go continue
cooking dinner. I want to talk abit about objectivity,
especially as a social studiesteacher, like, what you just
said is not objective. Likeyou're bringing your personal
viewpoints, your personalpieces, to your curriculum, to
your outlines. Like, is it sucha thing as an objective social
(33:38):
studies teacher, is that whatwe're looking for is
subjectivity, something weshould just embrace. And does it
only work when we agree withsomeone's subjectivity and it's
when we get upset with the otherside, so to speak, then it
becomes, oh, no, all historyneeds to be objective,
Unknown (33:52):
right? Oh, I mean, see, that's part of the challenge. Is
that there are facts and there'sfacts that can't be changed, but
there are narratives, andnarratives are often not based
on facts. They're based onfeelings, but they also play a
role in how we understand thepast. So you know, for example,
there's a lot of debate withinthe Jewish education space. And
(34:16):
you know, K through 12 publicschools, should we teach dual
narrative? Should we teach thePalestinian narrative. And some
people think no, becausenarratives are not necessarily
factual. So there's differentopinions about that, and
there's, I've seen differentways to do it, but this is the
challenge. I fully believe, youknow, that we should embrace
hard history. So I know, youknow we talked about the DEI
(34:38):
before. I like the idea is notthe ideology, right? The same
thing with this hard historyconcept. We cannot shy away from
hard history. It is our job toteach students how to understand
the two sides of a conflict bypresenting them with the facts
and, in cases, the narratives.
Now here's the question, though.
(35:00):
Kind of what you brought up, wewould never, ever ask if Hitler
was a good leader, right? Wewould never ask our students to
debate if slavery was good orbad. We have to have things that
we agree on in history that arebad or in the past. And that is
where I think it the trainingcomes in, the training comes in,
(35:22):
and having those conversationsas a department, and having the
administrator, you know, the orthe teacher leader, have that
training to navigate that and totrain the teachers on this.
Because you can get it reallywrong and you can get it right.
And I'll admit I made mistakesalong the way, you know, because
there are things that I believeare are important, that students
(35:44):
need to know. And then I said,You know what? Maybe it's a
little bit too leading, but thisis one of the challenges of
being a social studies teacher.
But I can tell you know, forexample, this, you know,
examples of is Israel committinga genocide. You see a lot of
those lesson plans or ethniccleansing, they're using the
terminology ethnic cleansing ina misleading way. And the
(36:05):
question I would have to thatteacher is, well, you know,
what's your agenda here? Youknow, what's the intention,
what's your learning goals? Ithink that's kind of the
questions we need to be askingthese teachers, because is it to
get the students to think acertain way, and we don't want
the students to come awaythinking that ethnic cleansing
is a good thing, right? Likethat's not on the table, but we
(36:26):
need to get them to understandhow it's happened when it's
happened. We have to have thoseconversations.
David Bryfman (36:33):
I'll tell you.
For me, one of the most complexphrases in recent months has
been the right side of history.
The people come to me sayingwe're teaching about the
genocide in Gaza because this isthe right side of history. And
just like you said before, whenwe're teaching about the Civil
Rights in New York public schoolsystems, we weren't bringing in
the Ku Klux Klan to speak aboutthe other, so called other side,
and giving them legitimacysomewhere in this whole
(36:55):
discussion, in this whole pastyear. And I think one of the
biggest pain points we face asJewish community is we've lost
control over many aspects ofwhat you've eloquently put as
not just the narrative. We'velost control over some of the
facts as well. And in our schoolsystem, it's being manipulated
by some against Jewish students.
And I'm just like, so thankfulthat someone like yourself is
able to stand up and literally,to highlight what needs to be
(37:17):
done and your your indicationsbefore about some of the
incremental changes that you'vemade, sometimes even impacting
the system as a whole, are trulyremarkable. And I think you
should take a moment and pauseand just like reflect on what
you've been able to teach. Assomeone said to me, as just a
teacher, as if just a teacher isa minimization of someone's
work. So really credit to youand all of the work. You didn't
(37:40):
have to do this. You didn't haveto stand up. No,
Unknown (37:43):
I didn't, but I have a hard time staying quiet. It's
always been one of my quote,unquote, bad qualities. But I do
want to say, and I want you knowthat it's not just me. You know,
I have no problem raising myvoice. I'm really good at kind
of galvanizing, but there are alot of people who are doing this
work day in and day out. I'm notgoing to name them all publicly,
(38:05):
but the women of the New YorkCity public Alliance who are
leading that, Karen and tovo,for example, I mean, they are
putting in hours ofuncompensated work. There's
other teachers, parents. We'vehad students, and the beautiful
thing now is that we'reconnecting to other teachers
around the country, and it tooka maybe a year, but the movement
(38:26):
is growing, and I'm I'm hopeful,but I know we have a lot to do,
and it can't just be one teacherhere or one teacher there. We
need the Jewish community to getinvolved in their local
districts especially supportthe, you know, the public
schools, and this is a societalproblem, because our public
(38:47):
schools, you know, they trainfuture leaders. So I appreciate,
you know, I appreciate that, butI really am appreciative also,
of all the people that have thatare doing this work and that
have inspired me to keep goingwhen we hit those roadblocks.
David Bryfman (39:03):
Shana, is there an educator in your life that
you're able to pay tribute tosomeone who's helped create you
into the incredible role modelthat you are today? Oh,
Unknown (39:11):
thank you, absolutely.
Mr. Davies, you keep saying,call me Mark, but Mr. Davies was
like the cool social studiesteacher. Kind of look like Marty
McFly, but he actually wasn't myclassroom teacher, but he was my
Amnesty International advisor.
So when I was 15, I gotinterested in Amnesty
International through theTibetan human rights issue, and
(39:34):
Mr. Davies advised me for threeyears in this club, and he
really made me feel like myvoice mattered. He believed in
me, he coached me, but he let melead, and I absolutely would not
be here today if it were not forMr. Davies, and he really
inspired me to become a teacherand to be the kind of teacher
(39:55):
that I needed at that timebecause I was bullied in eighth
grade for being Jewish. Ishactually really bad, like I was
physically accosted, and not oneteacher spoke up that I knew of.
I didn't hear of any teacherspeaking up. One teacher once
asked me if I was okay, but Inever felt like I had a teacher
on my side until Mr. Davies
David Bryfman (40:16):
Shaina. Thank you. Thank you for joining us on
adapting. Thank you for all thework that you do. Thank you for
your commitment to the studentsof New York and beyond, and your
voice is being heard loud andclear. And I just wish you. And
now to be totally transparent,we're working in a similar space
now to make sure that we can, wecan bring about systemic changes
to what you're talking about,but the teachers are really the
(40:38):
essence of all of the educationtaking place, and without people
like yourself, we couldn't evenbe dreaming of a better world in
which to live. So really, thankyou so much for all that you do,
Unknown (40:46):
absolutely. And I'm just gonna add in there, if I
can, that I really want to thankthe Jewish education project.
Also the New York EducationInitiative has really given me
hope that we can make changethrough working together as a
Jewish community, and so youknow that that work that the
Jewish education project hasbeen doing is really going to be
(41:08):
essential to making the changeswe need.
David Bryfman (41:10):
Today's episode of adapting was produced by Dina
nussenbaum and Miranda Lapides.
The show's executive producersare myself, Karen Cummins and
nessa lieben. Our show isengineered and edited by Nathan
j1 of njv media. If you enjoyedtoday's episode of adapting,
please share it with a friend,especially someone who might
send their child to publicschool, because I think they
need to hear about the work thatShane is doing, and if there are
any problems occurring withthem, that they know how to
(41:32):
reach out to others to try andbring about some change in their
schools as well. To learn moreabout the Jewish education
project, visit us at Jewishedproject.org, there you can
learn more about our missionhistory and our staff. We're a
proud partner of UGA Federationof New York. Thank you always
for listening today. You.
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