Changing Workers Compensation with Bob Wilson

In this episode, ADJUSTED welcomes Bob Wilson President & CEO  of WorkersCompensation.com. Bob shares his thoughts on the changes happening within the workers compensation industry.

Season 3 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin and guest co-host Mike Gilmartin, Area Vice President, Sales & Distribution, for Key Risk.

Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
Got questions? Send them to [e-mail]
For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

Greg Hamlin (00:12):
Hello, everybody and welcome to Adjusted. I'm
your host Greg Hamlin coming atyou from Sweet Home, Alabama and
Berkeley industrial comp. Andwith me is my co-host for the
day. Mike Gilmartin. Mike, doyou wanna introduce yourself to
everybody?

Mike Gilmartin (00:26):
Yeah, excited to be back, Mike Gilmartin. I work
at key risk. And I'm based inGreensboro, North Carolina. And
Greg keeps asking me to comeback. So I've decided to oblige.
It's great.

Greg Hamlin (00:37):
Glad to have you, Mike, you always keep it
interesting. So appreciate yougiving up some time, we've got a
special guest today, Bob Wilson,who was president of
workerscompensation.com. And Ithink if you've been in the
Workers Compensation space, andyou haven't run into him, then
you must not have been in herevery long. So glad to have you
join us, Bob.

Bob Wilson (00:57):
Thank you, Greg.
Appreciate it.

Greg Hamlin (00:59):
So I always like to start asking how you got into
the industry? Because I don'tthink there's too many of us
that when we were little growingup, knew we were going to be in
workers compensation. So Bob,how did you how did you fall
into this industry?

Bob Wilson (01:11):
Well, you're absolutely right. I got here
like everybody else by totalaccident. I think I had a web
development business in the 90s.
I'd had some background andtechnical recruiting for a
software development firm donehuman resource work, to started
a web development company in themid 90s. And through that was
introduced to a gentleman whohad bought the domain worker's
compensation.com in 1995, buthad done nothing with it. This

(01:35):
was in 1999. And we had we methad a general agreement on what
could be done with the that typeof domain. Turns out selling
shoes is not a successful way touse that domain. Now, we set up
a company in September of 1999.
And that's it. I can't believeit's been I'm in my what will be

(01:57):
my 23rd year in September, so Idon't know where the time is
gone. You know, it's funny youmentioned about showing up here
by accident I speak I asked thatquestion a lot when I speak at
conferences and who who you knowwho really in their in their
youth as a kid want to be aworker's comp professional and
no one ever raises their handand then a as anybody in college

(02:17):
wanted to be a worker's compprofessional and no one ever
raises their hand but then youask who woke up after a drunken
stupor and found out they were aworkers compensation
professional? A few peopleactually raise their hand of
that so I'm not quite sure butbut the thing you gotta
understand in this industry,it's like Hotel California, you
can check out but you can neverever leave. Isn't that right?

Greg Hamlin (02:37):
That's really true.
You see a lot of the same peoplebounce around in different spots
over the years. It's true

Bob Wilson (02:42):
And even even good friends who have retired I still
see them at conferences. They'restill showing up. They forgot
they retired. It's it's reallyit really is it's a it's a
fascinating industry. I'mactually been very, very pleased
with the 20. Some years I'vebeen in it. I'm trying

Mike Gilmartin (02:55):
I'm trying to run from it personally, I
started claims Naxosdistribution. I'm trying to face
myself towards the exit that noone ever has, but it's not
working. Like it doesn't work

Bob Wilson (03:04):
Good Luck on that.
We'll see it another year. Onthe wrap around when you're back
in

Mike Gilmartin (03:08):
I'm supposed to be speaking at a conference
coming up and you'll be outhere. Yeah, exactly. That's it.

Bob Wilson (03:12):
What's that old line in the mobster movie I tried to
get out and they sucked me backin. It's kind of like that.
Actually, I think about there'sa Sopranos episode that that
line gets repeated.

Greg Hamlin (03:22):
That's great Bob, can you tell us a little bit
about the resources that workerscompensation.com provides?

Bob Wilson (03:29):
Sure, sure. I think a lot of people are familiar
with the basic site workerscompensation.com, which is a
free resource. It's open toanybody who's interested in
workers comp. It has statestatutes, regulations, we have
discussion forums, news, blogs,events and event calendar, a lot
of useful information for theworkers comp industry. And that,
of course, is provides advertiseand that's one of the services

(03:51):
that we offer. But what a lot ofpeople don't realize is we do a
lot of work behind the scenes indata and forms management work
for TPAs insurers self insuredemployers. Our primary product
is a product calledworkerscompresearch.com, which
is a subscription service. It'sa multi jurisdiction compliance
tool for people who are tryingto manage claims across multiple

(04:12):
jurisdictions to 3700continually updated regular
judicial jurisdictional forums,US keyword searchable rules and
statutes, Compliance Centercalculators, all sorts of tools,
cheat sheets, customizable cheatsheets topic comparison center,
that's our primary product. Outof that we support to others

(04:33):
will product called Flash FormSSL, which will auto populate
data, auto populatejurisdictional forms out of a
claim system or software thataccesses our library of forms.
And we have a virtual claimskit, which is really a digital
distribution of posting notices,brochures and other other
products that are required whenunderwriting issues a new policy

(04:57):
or when there's a renewal. Yougo to some of my probably 50% of
the largest insurance companiesin the company use that product.
And it's been very, verysuccessful hit some pain points
with that one. I'd like to tellyou, we're just brilliant and
think of all these great ideas.
But the reality is we justanswered the phone and answer
questions. And yeah, we think wecould do that. And if we can
answer a pain point, we'll we'lltry and do it. So those are our

(05:17):
primary products.

Greg Hamlin (05:20):
That's great. I know, our department, our
company, in particular, relieson on your organization, just to
make sure we're not messing upour forms, because like you
said, you got 50 variants andchanging all the time. And if
you're operating in more thanone or two states, it's hard to
make sure you've got the mostcurrent form, and that you're
doing things the right way.

Bob Wilson (05:40):
It's true. You know, I've become friends with a good
number of regulators over theyears in my work with SOC and
the IBC. And I always thank themfor continually changing forms
and updating and keeping thingscomplex and confusing, because
frankly, it's keeping us inbusiness. The states change
between 200 and 400 forms everyquarter, on average, that has

(06:00):
dropped during the COVID era,it's been little less. But it's
it's really for a company that'snot specializing and trying to
keep up with that data, andyou're just trying to work
within the confines of of thosechanges. It's very difficult.
And I know several of theBerkeley companies use the
virtual claims kit and some ofthe other products that we have.
So we always appreciate that.

Mike Gilmartin (06:21):
Well, I think it's you know, it's funny, you
said, you know, I I wouldventure a guess I mean, I've
been doing this 15 years, even20 years ago, I would say big
insurance companies haven'talways put a ton of focus on
clients and making sure theyhave the right forms everything
else. And every year, I feellike it ratchets up and
penalties ratchet up and ratchetup. And everyone, there's such a

(06:43):
huge focus on it. Now, I guessfor you looking at it as a
whole. What is the biggestchange you've seen over the
years? Have you been doing thisin the industry?

Bob Wilson (06:51):
Well, biggest change in the industry, a couple that
you touched on. One is you know,as state budgets get tighter and
tighter, and it's harder forthese agencies to for some of
themon their their fiscalstructure to fund their
operations. Frankly, insurersbecome a target because there's
money there if they can be ifpenalties can be assessed. In
some states, it goes into thegeneral fund, but in some

(07:13):
states, it goes directly to fundthe the agency that oversees you
guys. And we've definitely seena shift there. And some of the
fines we've heard of are morearbitrary. I won't name the
state. But we have one clientwho told us prior that they'd
had a problem with a formwasn't, wasn't because we

(07:34):
provided the wrong form. But thestate had come to them and said
they used it too often. And theywanted a pretty hefty fine, just
because they determined they usethe form too often. I don't even
know what that means. Butapparently someone in the
regulatory level did.
a little closer. Youknow, you asked about some of

(07:56):
the changes in the industry overthe 20 years, there have been a
few negative changes. But I haveto say, overall, I think there
have been a lot more positivechanges I've seen than I have
negative negative change wouldbe we have failed to really
prepare for the gray tsunami ofretirement that is now upon us.
And I think we have a lot ofwork to catch up to cover for

(08:18):
that. But, on a really positivelevel. You know, when I first
joined this industry 20 Someyears ago, case loads were
extraordinarily high. Foradjusters they're still high,
but they're not as high overallas they used to be. And there
was a real strong process andclose mentality. And some of us
for a long time have beenclamoring for what we call a

(08:40):
little more humanity in thesystem a little more empathy
towards the position insituations that injured workers
are in and a recognition that ifwe start treating them with an
understanding treat the wholeperson versus versus just a body
part that will actually savemoney and get better outcomes
and have happier people all theway around. And I think the

(09:01):
positive thing for me is, youknow, when we first started, a
lot of us started talking a fewof us started talking about that
over a decade ago, it was kindof a lonely field. Now it's
becoming much more common. I wasat the WCI conference in Orlando
in December. And a lot of theirsessions were focused on
advocacy based claims, claimsmanagement, you know, really

(09:23):
along the lines of recognizingthe humanity and treating the
whole person, which you whichsounds somewhat soapy on the
surface, but actually is a goodbusiness strategy in my mind,
because it actually makes farbetter outcomes. And if you can
reduce litigation, I think youknow, it's a positive step. And
I've seen a lot more of that inrecent years. It's it's really

(09:44):
encouraging trend to see.

Greg Hamlin (09:46):
Yeah, that's one of my obviously one of my big
passion points is just I thinkthat we treat if we do things
the right way and we treatpeople the right way. It turns
out more often than not, we geta better outcome, and everybody
wins in that scenario.

Bob Wilson (09:59):
Exactly. You You know, sometimes when I speak at
conferences, I will ask people,you know, these are largely
compliant claims people andprofessionals in the industry.
If you're an adjuster and youget a new file on your desk,
what's your single overridinggoal for that file? And
inevitably, it's close. That'sthe goal. I want to close it,
you know, thank you have a niceday, but don't have it here. And

(10:20):
there's not a lot of thoughtabout what happens afterward.
There hasn't been traditionallya lot of thought about what
happens to that person afterit's closed. And certainly ever
I can understand why you want toclose files, but you want to
close them with proper results.
Yeah, you know, if we can avoiddisability, get more focused on
disability avoidance. It's justbetter, it's better for our
society. And I think it's,again, if we do it right, you

(10:41):
could do it with lesslitigation, which is where a lot
of that money goes, that getswasted.

Mike Gilmartin (10:49):
I think part of that, the point and I think part
of one of the issues we've runinto, over the last however many
years, as we've continuallyasked adjusters to become
experts in more and more things,there are more fields to fill
out CMS issues that you need tobe experts on. I mean, you need
to be jurisdictional experts youneed MSA experts need to be and

(11:10):
it's really hard to be all thosethings. And they continue to
think about the bottom line,which is the care of the injured
worker and getting them back towork and everything out, right.
Which is why I you know, acompany in a group like yours
are big deals in our industry,because if you ask the adjusters
to be experts in everything,you're not going to be an expert
at that. And so having peoplelike you guys that do that work,

(11:30):
and that can figure out whatregulations are aware of what
needs to be done. And automatingsome of that for groups is a big
deal, because I couldn't agreemore with the empathy thing. But
I think what we forget, is evenwhen I started adjusting, the
amount of fields you had to fillin, everything else was nothing
like it was 10 years later. Imean, the amount of information
we ask people to collect, rightbe steards of is quite

(11:53):
unbelievable. And I think it's,it's, the more we can take out
of adjusters hands, they can dothat work. And for example, the
things you guys do make a bigdifference to the at the end of
the day to be able to do thethings we're talking about. And
there's not a question there. Ijust I just think it's
interesting point.

Bob Wilson (12:07):
No, no, not only that, doing that you're exactly
right. And but add to that, thatsome adjusters have 200-250
files on their desk, right?
None, they don't have itanymore. And I'm not going to
name the it's it's a it'sactually a monopolistic state.
They had 300 files there theirclaims, people oh my gosh,
you're not you're not managing aclaim, you're just putting out

(12:29):
fires when they erupt on yourdesk. You know, it's one of the
things we talk about inconferences, too, is you put
yourself in the position of thatinjured worker. First, we have
to understand, I do a sessioncalled the wild and wacky world
of workers comp, which actuallyis really there. There's one
takeaway from the session isthat nobody outside our industry
understands anything about ourindustry, they don't understand

(12:52):
how it works. So when they havean accident, first off, their
employer stops talking to them,they get sent to the emergency
room to a doctor, they wait aday or two, they get a call from
someone they don't know whoworks for a company they've
never heard of who mentionedsomething about timely bet
paying benefits timely, andinvestigating their claim. Now
as far as they knew, they felldown and broke their ankle. They

(13:13):
didn't know that their claimneeded to be investigated. And
then they wait their doctorsbusy and won't answer their
questions won't return theircalls. They the adjuster is busy
and can't quite often can't getback to them. You know, probably
that free. One of the threepoints of contact was a
voicemail, because they neveranswered the phone, you know,
the injured worker doesn'tanswer the phone. And then they

(13:34):
sit at home. And they wonder andthey've got mortgage, they've
got a spouse that wants to knowwhere the next paycheck is
coming from. They don'tunderstand what's coming.
Meanwhile, on the phone, you'vegot Larry, the lawyer telling
them that if they've been hurtat the job, they need to hire a
lawyer because they're gonna getscrewed. And the backyard
they've got an idiot brother inlaw who lives in the trailer,
you know, everyone's got one ofthese brother in law's right,
who knows absolutely everythingin the world except how to keep

(13:56):
a job. Yep, that he better hirea lawyer, and he gets screwed.
So he goes out and he hires alawyer. And guess what? The
lawyer doesn't answer theircalls. So I mean, because
everyone's so busy andcommunication in the industry
has not been a real strongpoint. So it really does spiral
quickly beyond that, not justbecause the adjuster has to know
absolutely everything abouteverything. And you're right, my

(14:18):
company prides itself on tryingto solve some of those problems
shameless plug. But it reallydoes come down to there's just
too much of it the way we've gotit structured to traditional No,
that is that is getting better.
I think I've seen decreasingworkloads on some of these
companies, you know, recognizethat that is not an economical

(14:38):
way to run the business.

Mike Gilmartin (14:40):
I was just I was in WCI commerce as well when I
was on a panel and the numberone thing I talked about 45
minutes was communication andthe lack thereof and are
interested I mean, it's it'svery simple stuff. It's not
rocket science. But if youactually people forget very
quickly that the injured workerhas no clue what's going on.
Right we understand work compthey don't So how do we do

(15:00):
better at upfront explaining itto them, letting them know the
process, the comfort level ofknowing the process? I mean, I
couldn't agree more of what yousaid it's, it's a, it's a huge
problem. But if you take a stepback and you give people the
right workloads and the rightinformation, it's very doable.

Bob Wilson (15:15):
We get, because people don't understand the
industry. They think that a lotof people, a lot of people
believe that there's this big,nebulous agency that's, you
know, sets the premium rates,issues, the policies pays the
claims. And of course, theywould have a website, if it was
workers compensation, and thewebsite would probably be

(15:36):
worker's compensation.com.
Therefore, we get tons of emailsand phone calls from people,
employers and employees who arelost. They're really looking for
information we get subpoenaedfor medical records. We get we
get mail and medical bills forworkers comp agencies from all
over all over the country.
There'll be literally I've hadthe workers, bills, medical

(15:59):
bills sent to workman's compWyoming, at peal box 2432,
Sarasota, Florida 34230. We'vegot him from Utah, we've had him
from New York, we weresubpoenaed five times from a law
firm by a law firm in New York,it was a third party medical
claim. Third party damage claimthat they were looking for all
the claim files, we get them allthe time. So actually, not only

(16:21):
do people outside the industrynot know our process, sometimes
people inside our industryaren't very familiar with them,
either.

Greg Hamlin (16:28):
on the TPA side, or they're on the carrier side,
where because of where you'resitting, you're kind of getting
maybe more of a 5000 foot viewon what's going on in the
industry, because you're seeingit at this, whether it's a state
fund, or, you know, some of thevendors I'm sure you run into

(16:50):
too. And one of the things Iwanted to focus on today with
you, too, is just talking aboutchanging worker's compensation,
and what does that look like?
And there are so many movingpieces going on right now in a
COVID world. Hopefully, we'resoon moving to a post COVID
world. I don't know that we'rethere yet. Now that we have this
Omnicron variant, and I was justsharing with Bob before the call

(17:11):
or family now has had it thesecond time. And we've of
course, been vaccinated, butit's a challenging world,
Schools are shut down, peopleare trying to figure out how to
again, teach their kids whilethey're working. And offices are
trying to reopen and some arestumbling, some are moving to
remote. And so I guess mycuriosity is what are what are

(17:33):
some of your thoughts on howthis industry's workforce
transitions when we get out of aCOVID world?

Bob Wilson (17:42):
Well, I would first actually say how impressed I was
that worker's compensationtransitioned as deftly, as it
did as smoothly as it did at thestart of the pandemic. If you
had told me five years ago thatwe would be able to overnight
adopt a new technology, new tous, telemedicine, tele
telecommunications, or videocommunications, I would have

(18:06):
been shocked. But we did what wehad to do. And I think that
ultimately has forced us toembrace technologies that would
have otherwise taken years togain acceptance. I think going
forward, obviously, remote workis going to affect our industry
in two different ways. Oneremote work is here to stay for
a lot of companies, eithereither a full time remote or a

(18:26):
hybrid situation of two or threedays a week at home couple days
in the office. For our industry,it's interesting because not
only do we have to function inthat environment, we also have
to manage claims that areproduced out of that
environment. And I COVID hasbeen kind of unique all the way
in that respect that not onlyare we dealing with it as
employers, but we're dealingwith it's the end product COVID

(18:47):
has been foisted upon us, withinthe industry in most in many
states. I think going forwardthough, any of the supervisors
the mid management and upperlevel managers who are locked in
that nine to five traditionalwork mentality are going to
struggle. remote work is adifferent animal where people
may not necessarily work nine tofive I and you really need to

(19:11):
start focusing there are thosepeople who focus on how do I put
it on effort versus outcomeeffort versus, you know, they
see someone at the desk, theywant you at your desk, they
think your desk working doesn'tnecessarily mean you're
producing anything. You have tolook at the end result. My own
company has gone virtual out ofthis. We had an office in

(19:32):
downtown Sarasota, I still haveit. One guy goes in every day.
We went virtual when thepandemic hit. We reopened the
office halfway through thenumbers started climbing in
Florida. We closed it again andI got a lot of pushback when we
reopened and I'm a small companywith like 12 employees in our
office and we have someindependent contractors who do
writing for our new senator somereporters, we had some people

(19:53):
who just didn't want to make thecommute you know, and I have to
be honest, you I've suddenlybecome one of them. It's a 40
minute drive now from where Ilive to the office, and it's
like, traffic here is gottenvery heavy, Florida is booming,
everybody's moving here, itseems like but we, we decided to
go remote. And the reality iswe've made some changes, we have

(20:15):
a daily Zoom meeting witheverybody, it's all hands on
board Monday through Friday at10:30am, we have a Zoom meeting,
I'm not a big fan of meetings,it may be 510 minutes long, it
may be half an hour long. Somedays, we may not even discuss
business, but it does become ourwater cooler time. I think one
of the biggest challenges onremote work is being isolated
and not feeling part of agreater team, or having a focus

(20:37):
or awareness of what else isgoing on in the company. And the
Zoom meetings everyday have forus solved that problem. Now
bigger companies obviously can'tget everybody at once. But
certainly departments should beable to bring people in and, and
have that daily communication inan environment where now a lot
of people are remote andisolated if that were and I
think that's gonna be one of thebiggest changes is maintaining

(20:59):
those lines of communication andsense of team. In an environment
where everyone's working athome, though for a lot of people
are working at home.

Greg Hamlin (21:08):
Good insight.

Mike Gilmartin (21:09):
That goes, that goes directly to kind of the
next talking point I you know,as the as the president of an
organization, I'd be interestedto hear your thoughts. But with
that, and I will hear you Ithink we're kind of the changes
here to say and and in myopinion, it'll probably get more
and more remote as we continuedown the line. But how do you
continue your culture when itcomes to hiring and onboarding

(21:32):
and not having that face toface? I think we all struggled,
right. I know Greg does. We do Imean, interviewing is different.
How you bring people into thecompany is different. And we
work in a world where peoplereally need to feel like they're
part of a team because there'sso much to learn in our
industry. How do you How are youdoing that your company? Or what
are your thoughts on how you dothat successful?

Bob Wilson (21:53):
Well, you've touched on the biggest challenge, I
think with the remoteenvironment is hiring and
training, onboarding employees,we've hired two people during
the pandemic, good people, buttraining has been difficult.
It's a learning curve on whatyou can do. You know, there's a
lot, there's a lot you can learnjust by almost I want to say
osmosis by being aroundconversations and listening to

(22:14):
the processes, and getting toknow what people do in the
company. And when you don't havethat in person contact. It's
very difficult. I've got like Isaid, the two people we hired I
know spent a longer time tryingto come up to speed to what
we've gotten, I think a lot ofthat is just the fact that we
were remote and trying to do itremotely. And it's the first

(22:35):
time we've done it in thatmanner. And we've learned a few
things along the way. I stillthink you know, even though we
are going to like for ourselvesmaintain a virtual presence, and
will downsize the office, I willstill maintain a physical
location somewhere conferenceroom and an office with a couple
of desks where we used to joke.
Three years ago, I would nevertold you I'd want to run a

(22:56):
virtual company, my just I usedto joke that I like to get
people together in a room. Andwe can come to a boneheaded
decision much faster than anylarge corporation can because
we're small and nimble. Andpeople together can solve those
can address those issues willcome to come to hopefully good
conclusions, I still want to beable to do that, I still believe
that you need to get physicallyin contact and be in the same

(23:17):
room periodically. So we'restill going to try and maintain
that, even though it will be youknow, maybe once or twice a
month versus every single day.
And I think those are butthere's no doubt that that
training new employees in avirtual environment is very,
very difficult, because it'sit's very hard for them to

(23:39):
establish the team. But again,our daily calls have helped
bring people up to speed onboard, because a lot of the
questions can be addressedduring those calls.

Greg Hamlin (23:47):
I think that's going to be a huge challenge.
And it's something I'm stilltrying to wrap my brain around
when I think about it in that.
And if you think when I when Iwas starting out in the industry
almost 20 years ago, we had justkind of gone through the
transition where a lot of thebigger fortune 100 companies had
shut down their local officesand created regional offices
that would cover seven 810states.

Bob Wilson (24:10):
And I love those companies, by the way, because
suddenly you're the adjuster whopicks up seven new states loved,

Greg Hamlin (24:19):
But you know, I think what we may see or what
I'm starting to see is companiesare looking at now with this new
virtual situation that well, ifI need somebody in Pennsylvania,
I could just hire that person,Pennsylvania and they could work
from their house and we don'tmaybe need that same regional
footprint. But then I guess mythought is how do you get to
bringing new people into theindustry? And what does that

(24:41):
look like when you're spreadout? And I don't know that we've
cracked that nut but I'm justcurious what your thoughts are
on how do you find the nextcollege graduates or people who
maybe in other industries youcan invite into this and how do
they learn? Where like when Ithink about when I was training
probably this way for Mike I hada manager, I also had a senior

(25:03):
that I could just lean over andturn my desk around and say, you
know, I have a question. How doyou do this? And then when I
felt like I bothered Kim toomuch, I could go over to John on
the other side. But I think I'veasked Kim three questions today,
I need to save this next one forJohn, no thoughts on how we get
to that.

Bob Wilson (25:21):
I wish I had the answers to all that because it
is a challenge it is. First off,I think there's a big
discussion, obviously, about howdo we attract proper people into
the industry to begin with, andI will tell you that workers
compensation in my view, gets abad rap in the public eye. And
it's a part of it's our ownfault. You know, we've talked

(25:41):
about the process and closedmentality, the heavy workload
for adjusters, the, you know,you're stuck in a cubicle, maybe
it's a good thing, that peoplewill not be stuck in cubicles
all the time, it may actually bean attraction that you can now
work at home. I think, you know,when you're in one of 300
cubicles on a floor, and you'vegot all these files, and you're
on the phone all day, withpeople who generally don't like

(26:03):
you, or are unhappy, they'reunhappy, because, you know,
think about the nature of ourbusiness. Nobody, you know,
wants to talk to you untilsomebody's hurt, you know, and
then when they're hurt, they'rein pain, they're scared, they're
angry, you know, I know a lot ofinjured workers that are angry.
And usually, I'm hard pressed,sometimes it's hard pressed to

(26:24):
find the injured worker who isresponsible for their own
injury, there's usually it'susually the boss who may rush
them at work or something, youknow, so they're angry at things
and they're angry at thesituation they're in. So it's
kind of a negative environmentenvironment, we should market
ourselves to new employees as anindustry that can restore broken
lives, we can actually take abroken life and help restore, I

(26:46):
think a lot of it is our ownlanguage. You know, if you're
coming out of high school,especially, or college
generation, generations comingout of school, now they say, you
know, they want to make adifference in the world, they
want to have a difference, whatyou can do that if you want to
take someone whose life has beeninjured and make it better,
that's something but when youtalk about being an adjuster who
processes claims, it losessomething, our own language

(27:10):
doesn't help us attract theright people to these positions.
You know, getting the rightpeople in the door would be a
challenge. And we have to marketourselves appropriately to do
that. Beyond that, I think wehave to take advantage in the
remote environment of all thetools, you may actually have to
have physical time together,there still need to be offices
where people can go and worktogether in the training
process. And then beyond that,you know, I've worked with some

(27:34):
some of the one of the guys havebeen with me since we started 22
years ago. And you know, we usedto chat up a storm in the
office. Now we found up on thephone sometimes just to catch up
and find out what's going on,we've got to make that effort to
continue to communicate eithervirtually you know, I don't know
if you've noticed phone callsseem to be dead. Whenever you
set up a call, you get a zoomlink. Now, no one uses the

(27:54):
telephone anymore. But it'sstill an excellent tool to be
able to pick up and ask thosethree questions of John and one
of Jim or Sally, when you'retrying to learn the position to
be available for those people. Isense some rambling, so I'll
stop now.

Mike Gilmartin (28:09):
No, I think you both made really good points. I
think you're the flip side ofhow do we attract more people
into the industry, there's a wayyou can look at the virtual
world we're moving to in apositive light my opinion, and
that's that your talent pool,whereas if we want to hire an
adjuster in Maryland,historically been obviously in
Maryland, we're hiring somebody.
Now, if I have somebody that Ineed for my Maryland team, my

(28:29):
pool has opened up to all 50states if I needed to. And so
you're already attracting and Iguess in terms of any positive
spin on it, that will be one interms of your talent pool has
now opened up because you havethe Virtual Ability to train
people and bring people on andeverything else. But you guys
both hit on it. And I don't knowhow you fix it. But the osmosis
of being around people,especially in claims is still

(28:51):
huge, and probably big in allindustries. But yeah, I mean, I
remember Ada Williams sat behindme and Liberty when I first
started and I just listened toher talk all day on the phone.
And you're like, these are thekinds of conversations to have
what did you do there? How didyou do this? Why did you do
that? And he will listen to youand say, Hey, man, I'm you
probably shouldn't say that nexttime or hey, maybe we should do
something different.

Bob Wilson (29:13):
Yeah, yep. We all learn for what we shouldn't have
done. Yeah, that's right.

Mike Gilmartin (29:17):
Exactly. But you know, and Jabber and all those
things and whatever, you know,platforms you use work. But
yeah, my question is the same. Ijust don't know how you you
replace that. And so I agreewith you. I think always having
some kind of physical presenceis good. But it's a hard
question to answer, in myopinion. I don't know. I mean,

Greg Hamlin (29:36):
Yeah, I think we're gonna see who figures it out
because somebody's gonna haveto, for sure, we're trying some
things but I'm not ready to saythat they're winning ideas yet.
And

Bob Wilson (29:47):
it's tough. It's tough because there are some
companies out there I'm lookingat. There are some states of
course, that require physicallicensing and someone to be
physically located in the stateand that that still presents
some problems, you know, and tothe At end, the legal and
regulatory world always lagstrends and technology in terms
of catching up. And that's notnecessarily the regulator's

(30:10):
fault. I actually have a lot ofsympathy for the regulators in
this country, I think they havea very difficult job. I'm not as
sympathetic to the legislatorsof the country, who continually
try to fix our system when theydon't understand what they're
fixing. And they usually fix itto the tune of whoever got their
ear in this particularlegislative session. But then
the regulators have to takewhatever they're given and make

(30:30):
sense out of it, and make itwork for everybody. So part of
one of those issues is we needto get rid of some of those
licensing requirements and orphysical location in a state
because it's becoming less andless relevant. But yeah, your
point that the consolidation isimpacting people, but it also is
broadening the horizons as topeople being able to work in
multiple states and acrossmultiple areas from a from a

(30:53):
remote location.

Greg Hamlin (30:54):
I agree. You were talking some about change there,
Bob. And, and I know you've beenin this a long time. If you
could have a magic wand, and youcould change something in this
industry, and it would just bedone and solved. What what would
be what would be the thing?

Bob Wilson (31:11):
Well, that's a softball question for me. So
thanks for that. It's a and bythe way, I've been told that I
couldn't make myself chancellorof the realm that's really what
I want to be is Chancellor ofthe realm. No, I have been my
bandwagon for over a decade nowis that the workers compensation
industry is not properlybranded, we're misbranded. We

(31:33):
have a discussion for on workerscompensation.com. And it's open
to anybody but it's dominated byinjured workers, they seem to
have more time on their handsthan a lot of us. And
interestingly, during COVID,particularly last year, dramatic
drop off and activity on thatforum, I don't really have an
answer to it. There are a coupleother forums out there that I've
seen the same thing, big dropoffs. And I don't know why. But,

(31:56):
you know, over over the life ofthe forum, it's 160, some 1000
posts and 17,000 threads. Imean, it's very active forum.
For 20 years, we've seen areally common theme of a new
injured worker coming into thediscussion forum, they will
leave a very long description ofwhat happened to them, their
particular injury will happenwith the employer, they got sent
to the doctor, they don't knowwhat you know, they're, and

(32:17):
they're looking for answers.
They have no idea what's goingto help. But they always seem to
end the description with avariant of the same question.
And that is, you know, this iswhat happened to me, how much
will I make? How big will mysettlement be? And I think when
you think about it, and this hasreally been an education, you
mentioned earlier how we haveaccess to all the players in the
industry from a really prettyneutral position. And that's
true, it's been a really uniquespot. And by the way, our

(32:40):
discussion forum is an educationcurve for any new adjuster. You
want to learn how injuredworkers think and what their
views are, spend some time onthe discussion forums. But when
you think about it, you don'tknow anything about the system
and you have an injury andyou're told you need to file a
workers compensation claim andin many states are sent to a
workers compensation doctor. Andthen you're given a worker's
compensation adjuster, they allfocus on the word compensation.

(33:00):
And they don't understand it,particularly in the context that
we're statutory to statutorilydefined to provide it, they, you
know, they often have muchdifferent expectations of what
they should be getting from whatthey really are. And, to me,
that has led me to believe thatwe really should be called
workers recovery. And that'sbeen my big issue for over a

(33:21):
decade. I think that simple wordchange would be a paradigm
shift, not just for peoplecoming into the system to set
different expectations. But forpeople within the system, who
are suddenly it goes beyondthat. If I'm king for a day I've
made wave my magic one, we wouldbe called workers recovering. We
wouldn't have adjusters anymore,get rid of the adjusters,

(33:42):
they're all going to be calledrecovery specialists. Screw the
guys in subrogation, they'llhave to get different titles,
but they should be recoveryspecialists and we wouldn't have
injured workers we would havefrom day one recovering workers,
they would be referred to asrecovery workers, because you're
setting different expectationsto a point of recovery, versus a
point of compensation andpossible disability. And I

(34:03):
really do think we knowdisability. In my mind, I come
to detest the concept ofdisability, because we are an
industry that unfortunately cantake an impairment and create a
disability from that impairment.
And we've all known injuredworkers who have impairment and
go on to recover and have a veryproductive and successful life.

(34:24):
And then we know people who havethe exact same injury, and they
spiral down and completely fail.
And part of what we're talkingabout is setting different
expectations in that process tofocus on a recovery mindset
versus a process and closementality. So I really do think
shifting it and I've actuallyseen some I mean one of your
companies has a workers recoveryunit and like Greg I know it's

(34:45):
the sister company UBS Yeah,Continental Western, they have a
workers recovery unit thrilledme to death when I found out
about that I can't take creditfor it. But it was a you know,
it's the same concept. I justgot an email yesterday from a
risk manager at a very largecompany out west, who's got the
opportunity to rename herworkers comp program, and she's

(35:07):
talking about am I still talkingabout workers recoveries, it's
still a viable option. So Ireally would like the
regulator's in the states tochange it. That's where it needs
to change, I only need one,because once I can get one state
to change, it'll all go. But ifwe have to do it from the ground
up with insurance companies andprivate employers embracing that
recovery mindset, I think we youknow, that's what we'd like to

(35:28):
do. So that's what I would do.
If I were king for a day, I willtell you, Washington State
revamped their entire vocationalprogram, and they called it the
vocational recovery program. AndI was very honored. I was
speaking at a conference outthere and Ryan Guppy, who was at
that time, the chief ofpartnerships for return to work
programs, gave me credit or gavecredit to the recovery use of

(35:49):
the recovery term to what I hadbeen promoting. That's probably
the only little impact I've beenable to have so far. That's
because I'm not king for a dayand can't wave my magic wand. So
but that's what I would do.

Mike Gilmartin (35:58):
I think that's a great point. I think it's a
really good initiative. I wishmore people were on board with
that. And I think it parlaysinto the next thought I have a
question. You said somethingearlier about how surprised you
were that when COVID hit theentire industry was able to move
virtual, and it really didn'tslow anybody down. I mean, it
was kind of tough. And because Iagree with you, I think workers

(36:19):
comp generally lags behindeverything. Insurance companies
general generally lag behind ontechnology and everything else.
But you just kind of spend thelast 10 minutes overlaying one
of the biggest issues we have,and everyone seems very slow to
pick up on is this whole idea ofempathy and kind of rebranding
who we are and what our purposeis? Why do you think there is

(36:42):
such a lag? In I mean, caseloadis even like it's getting
better, but it's still not whereit needs to be. Why is there so
much lag time on doing thingsthat you and me and Greg would
likely see as common sense?
Because you have an outsideview? If you're not involved in
the insurance company level, youhave an outside view of all of
us? Why are we being so stupid?

(37:03):
Bob, I guess would be thequestion.

Bob Wilson (37:07):
I do like to state because they are my customers,
they're not stupid, we're notgoing to call my customers
stupid.

Mike Gilmartin (37:12):
I also thought you would say being king per
day, the requirement would bethat every insurance company
must sign up and have a contractwith workers compensation
background.

Bob Wilson (37:22):
That would be an assumed and by the way, I also
own the domain workersrecovery.com, because I'm not
stupid. Okay. I mean, you know,I am not stupid, I will tell you
that. I tell people, Mama onlyraised ugly children. But we are
a really risk averse industry. Imean, when you think about it, I
mean, we manage risk. And weactually, we deal with the

(37:45):
fallout of improper riskmanagement is really what we do
in a lot of situations. veryhesitant to change, very
reluctant to be the first oneout of the gate. Okay. No one
wants to be first. You know, werolled out the virtual claims
kit number of years ago, and itwas a request of the insurance

(38:07):
company who used our forms andsaid, Are these licensed for
public distribution? We said no,not but we could talk about
that. How do we then we createda virtual claims, get the brands
through a company's website. AndI was on a call one day with a
company that's a very goodclient. They've been they've
they're what we call a trifecta,client. They have our three
primary products. But they werelooking at the virtual claims

(38:28):
kit. And I was on a call oneday, and had been talking to him
for over a year. And there were33 people on their Feasibility
Committee. Okay. They had aFeasibility Committee. And there
was me on my side of the call, Iwas traveling somewhere, as I
said, a conference something andI was on my cell phone. And I
remember one of the people onthe call saying, you know, Bob,
when we first started talkingabout the virtual claims kit, a

(38:48):
year and a half ago, only onecompany had deployed the
solution. How many othercompanies have deployed? I said,
I actually said, and I was alittle snarky, but it got a lot
of laughs. I said, Well, theanswer to your question lies in
the middle of your question. Wefirst started talking about this
a year and a half ago, andeveryone started laughing at

(39:09):
someone, someone else said,Yeah, we're moving at lightning
speed do takes a long time to gothrough decisions. You know, I
and I don't mean this to becritical, because I will tell
you what, there are a lot ofreally good people in this
industry. And that's one thingthat I think keeps people in the
industry is there are a lot ofpeople who really want to do the

(39:30):
right thing. In a verydifficult, heavily regulated
environment. They want to beable to do the right thing by
people. And that's somethingthat's not known outside the
industry that we don't get thatcredit for that. But they I
listened to some of these calls,I'll be on calls with very big
corporations. And I often jokethat Dilbert is alive and well

(39:50):
in corporate America because Iwill listen to them talk about
having to negotiate access toresources within their own
company, to be able to do thingsto utilize a certain product.
And it really is interesting tolisten to that type of internal
structure. Because companies,some of these large companies
are so heavily siloeddepartments don't really talk to
each other. And I think thatthat slows down the adoption of

(40:15):
new technologies. And there's ageneral mistrust of new things
when this is the way we'vealways done it. And so if
there's a benefit of COVID, isin many levels, it shattered
that barrier, because wecouldn't do it that way on, you
know, on March 2, we could, andon March 3, we could not. And

(40:36):
that really forced people toscrap their concerns, and reach
out and adapt. And I think thatthat's been helpful. But I think
that's why we've been slow toadopt new new trends and
technologies, just because weare a very risk averse industry.
And no one wants to be the firstone in the pool.

Greg Hamlin (40:53):
Yeah, I hope it doesn't take another worldwide
pandemic or catastrophicdisaster for us to facilitate
the next level of change. But,but Bob what do you what do you
think needs to change? Or whatneeds to happen to facilitate
that change at a faster pace?
You mentioned silos? I don'tknow. You know, I guess our

(41:14):
model is a little different thansome, but I think many companies
are still going to be siloed inthe next few years. What what
could move the needle forward onsome of this?

Bob Wilson (41:26):
Well, I think the trend of new generations coming
into the workforce, you know,Gen Z and Gen. Y, who knows the
I don't even know who's comingafter z are like five
generations in the workforce.
Now, those expectations fromsome of those newer generations
will force change in the way wedo things, if we want to attract

(41:46):
them, we want to keep them, wewant to be productive with them,
we're going to have to do that.
And I think communication, wehave to improve our levels of
communication. We ashistorically I think as an
industry, we've not done a greatjob of communicating with
injured workers or with eachother. You know, and again, part
of that is working in a fairlyheavily regulated structured

(42:07):
environment, this is the way wedo it. And this is what the
state requires. We have to getmore accustomed to talking to
one another, again, challengingin a remote environment for
everyone who's going to beremote. But I think we have to
improve our lines ofcommunication, both internally
and externally.

Greg Hamlin (42:24):
Great points, great points. And I would add my two
cents to it as I think we needto have leaders who feel like
they have the freedom to makechanges, and not feel afraid to
fail. Because there's going tobe some mistakes along the way,
too. I always say anytime youtry to innovate and do something
new, it's messy. And that's whypeople don't want to do it is

(42:45):
there's there's always snags,there's always problems, and
usually you're justdirectionally moving in the
right place. Normally, you don'thave that Apple moment where
it's like, This is amazing.
There's these directional, whereit's like, okay, we took two
steps forward, but we'redefinitely going to have to take
a step back, because some ofthis did not work right.

Bob Wilson (43:04):
Absolutely. That is a fantastic point. I read a meme
recently that just related tofailures are not are not
disasters, they're educationalopportunities. And I was talking
to a gentleman one time wetalked about I have he had whole
binders of ideas that did notwork. You know, these ideas that
didn't work. But you have to trythings. I think you're right,

(43:25):
you've hit on a point that wewere afraid to try things
because we don't want to fail.
And the fact is, we can't changeuntil we failed enough. Every
failure is a step towards whatneeds to be done. We joke about
the company a lot, because wehave, you know, three or four
very successful products. I havesome other ideas that are on the
ash heap of history somewherethat seemed like a good idea at
the time. But yeah, you've gotto be able to step out and be

(43:49):
willing to try things.
Absolutely.

Mike Gilmartin (43:52):
One and the attitude that it doesn't have to
be all done right away, right,like little incremental changes,
first of all, are easier to failand recover from but it's a lot
easier for people to grasp thedigest and even if something is
better than nothing. So I wouldsay if you're going to learn
from it, right? If you're goingto it's going to work, right? If
you're going to fail, but out ofit come something different.

(44:12):
That's awesome. But I think yousaid earlier, one of your

Bob Wilson (44:13):
Yeah, there's, you know, there's a saying that's
clients and what we've beentalking about it for a year and
a half, because no one wants tomake the decision to say, Okay,
we don't wanna be there don'twant to do it. Or if we're not
going to do all of it, what partof it? Or do we want to do?
Let's just get started withsomething and see where we go.
And I think everyone alwayswants all the information and to
know what's going to happenbefore they make a decision. And
to Greg's point, we need leadersand people that are willing to

(44:35):
say, let's give it a shot. Let'ssee what happens, right? We're
not gonna buy the farm wreck ofa company, but let's see where
we go. Right. And those thingsall build on each other.
not the big who eat the smallit's the fast to eat the slow.
And you think about that a lotbecause I hear a lot of people
complaining about theconsolidation in the industry. A

(44:56):
lot of the vendors that peopleuse have been acquired by a lot
of venture capital money. Cominginto the industry, a lot of
acquisitions, a lot ofconsolidation, you see less and
less people complaining aboutless and less choices for
certain services they needwithin the industry. And what I
actually see is companies thatare going to get bigger and
bigger and slower and perhapsbecome struggled to be that

(45:18):
nimble as they once were. Andthat's an opportunity for other
people to come in and you seeit, you can already see, you
know, the big wave started 5,6,7years ago. And you can tell when
the non competes expire, becausethe old players are back in with
their new small, nimblecompanies come in to chip away
again. And it is an opportunity.
Some of those are opportunitiesfor progress. And competition.

(45:39):
Competition is very healthy,because it makes everyone try
and be you have to be better. SoI don't think that's necessarily
a negative within the industry.
But you're right. I love thefact that you say incremental
change is good. Well, now youtell me. I mean, I should have
known that a long time ago.

Greg Hamlin (45:58):
That's great. Well, Bob, we really enjoyed having me
on this podcast today. There's,there's one thing I wanted to
start doing in season three,that's a little different as I
wanted to, with each of ourguests. Now, there's so much
negativity out in the world ingeneral, I felt like there's
just whether it's on the news,whether it's, you know, the
pandemic, and I thought I wouldlike to end every one of the

(46:20):
episodes this year with a memoryof a time that you were really
happy. And so it doesn't have tobe work comp related at all,
Bob, but I wanted to know, ifyou would mind sharing with us a
memory of a time that just comesto memory, when you are really
happy, could be recent could befurther in the past.

Bob Wilson (46:38):
There are several times I mean, I've been very
happy from a businessperspective, when some of our
ideas have taken off and donevery well. You know, when when
you have that feeling ofaccomplishment. Alright. Well,
again, this is all work related.
At the national conferenceseveral years ago, national
workers comp conferences, theones usually in Vegas that
happen to be in New Orleans,this particular year, the

(47:01):
keynote speaker was Tim East whois the Director of Risk
Management for Disney core. Andduring his keynote address, he
talked about the concept ofworkers recovery. And he talked
to him and he mentioned my blog,I write a blog where I've been
promoting it. And he talkedabout the concept he said, You
know, it's a really good idea.
It makes sense. And I thought,you know, to be endorsed by

(47:23):
Disney is a pretty happy thoughtfor me. I'm not saying didn't
I'm sure I'll hear from thelawyers from Disney. Now, Mr.
Wilson, you have not beenendorsed by but to have that
level of endorsement, and thatrecognition was made me very,
very happy I that made my day.
He had contacted me prior to theevent to get approval to use my
name, because we're in a riskmanagement world. And that's

(47:46):
what risk managers do. Sure,sure. You know, and it took me
about a nanosecond to say, Oh,sure, no problem. But that was
that was really good. Beyondthat there and there are lots of
times in your in your privatelife and you're very happy you
know that I remember somevacations with my wife in Maine,
we love the state of Maine. It'svery relaxing, you just enjoy

(48:06):
it. There are a lot of thingsyou know, worth living for. And
there there will continue to beafter pandemic after what post
pandemic we can never get there.
I don't know. That's the kind ofcaught me off guard with that.

Greg Hamlin (48:18):
I said, I'm glad I did. I got excited like both of
those things.

Mike Gilmartin (48:22):
And you know, I think that somebody says the day
I was asked to do adjusted forthis question, because he wants
someone this season to say now,

Bob Wilson (48:32):
I feel I've missed a glorious opportunity. Let me
revise that. Well, it was theday the day it actually your
listeners may not know we've hada little because of COVID and
some other conflicts. It's beenabout what this our third tried
to get this done today. I gotthree invitations to be on
adjusted. So I'm really happy.

Greg Hamlin (48:52):
No, I love that answer though, Bob, because I
think you hit on to two thingsthat I love. One is if you're
from Florida or Alabama and it'sthe summertime being up north is
a good thing. Whether that'sMaine or Michigan, I think
Michigan was my spot. Butthere's nothing like 75 degree
weather when you're in the high90s Hundreds down here, and

(49:13):
family times where it's at. Ialso totally agree with you
mentioning, you know, having anidea catch fire or starting to
see the seeds of that and makingan impact. I often think to
myself when this is all over, Ihope that I've left some kind of
impact impact for the positive.
And so those moments you got tohang on to him when they happen.

Bob Wilson (49:34):
No, I think that's true. You know, the only thing
that bottom line at the end ofthe at the end of the line you
only you can take with you whenyou go is your reputation. And
you want to make sure that itwas right and that you've done
done what you can you're not noone's perfect. We all make
mistakes. But that's reallyimportant. But I will tell you,
my wife will let you know thatI'm famous for taking her to
places at the wrong time of theyear. Just before we went to I

(49:57):
had an opportunity to speak inAnchorage, Alaska and I I've
never been to Alaska. It waslike I took it in a heartbeat.
Yes, I'll be happy to. And wewent up there, but it was in
May, early May, was beautiful.
But you know, Denali opens twoweeks after we were there. We
can see it from a distance, butwe're not getting that close.
Yeah, my timing sometimes isoff. But it is there are a lot,

(50:18):
a lot of those neat trips andmemories that you have. But
there are a lot, I think, andI'm going to be misogynist for a
moment here, men, if you ask aman what he does, he will
immediately talk about his job.
He'll talk about what he doesfor a living. That's where we
often identify ourselves. And Iwill tell you that I am one of

(50:39):
the most fortunate people in theworld that for 22 years, I have
been doing something that Iabsolutely love. And I have
absolutely no regrets on it'sbeen a great run and a great
experience and that and therearen't many people who can look
back and say that you know, inthat respect that level so it's
been good, I'm very blessed.

Greg Hamlin (50:58):
I appreciate you Bob I your voice for good and
the industry and I hope peoplewill check out your blog and
your website. I appreciate allyou do to move the needle
forward. And I also appreciateyou taking the time to chat with
us today.

Bob Wilson (51:12):
I appreciate the invitation I thank you this has
been really enjoyable I've had alot of fun with this today
doesn't feel like an interviewat all. You guys are very good
at this so I appreciate that.
Well Thanks Bob.

Greg Hamlin (51:23):
Well I just like to let everybody know that to
continue to check us out you cansee the blog on the off weeks
every other Monday we have anepisode dropper into season
three now so encourage you ifyou haven't listened to some of
the previous episodes to checkthem out. And as always remember
to do right think differently.
And don't forget to care.
Thanks, guys.