February 17, 2025 • 51 mins
In this rebroadcasted episode of ADJUSTED, we welcome Bob Wilson, President & CEO of WorkCompCollege.com. Bob shares his expert insights on the evolving landscape of the workers' compensation industry.
Season 9 is proudly sponsored by Berkley Industrial Comp. Join hosts Greg Hamlin and guest co-host Mike Gilmartin, Area Vice President of Sales & Distribution at Key Risk, for this enlightening discussion.
For more insights, visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog. Have questions? Email us at marketing@berkindcomp.com. For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at camrunyan9@gmail.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hello everybody and welcome to Adjusted.
I'm your host, greg Hamlin,coming at you from Sweet Home,
Alabama and Berkeley IndustrialComp, and I'm excited to have
you join me for this rebroadcast.
This episode is with a goodfriend of mine, bob Wilson, and
I've known Bob for a number ofyears.
His claim to fame was startingworkerscompensationcom and then
(00:37):
moving on to the education space, and I've really enjoyed having
him on the podcast multipletimes.
But in this episode we reallyfocused on the importance of
continuing education and how dowe help adjusters learn and grow
and advance in their careerthrough deepening their
education.
Bob's new endeavor is focusedon that, and so this was a great
(01:00):
opportunity to talk about thetools that are out there to help
adjusters further their career.
So I hope you enjoy this one.
Remind folks to like, followand share the podcast.
We'd also love it if you leaveus a five-star review so others
can find their way to thepodcast and, as always, remind
our listeners to do right, thinkdifferently and don't forget to
(01:22):
care.
Hope you enjoy this one.
Hello everybody and welcome toAdjusted.
I'm your host, greg Hamlin,coming at you from Berkeley
Industrial Comp and Sweet Home,alabama, and with me is my
co-host for the day.
Mike Gilmartin, mike, you wannaintroduce yourself to everybody
.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, hello everybody .
Mike Gilmartin from Key Risk.
I am in sunny Greensboro, NorthCarolina.
It's going to be like 80degrees today, Greg, so I'm
really excited to be stuckinside.
It's awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I know Well.
Hey, having grown up in theMidwest, I'll take this warmer
weather every day.
So we've got our special guesttoday, bob Wilson, who actually
did an episode with us a whileback.
He is the president ofWorkCompllegecom and has been in
the industry a long time.
Bob, do you want to say hi toeverybody?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Hello everybody, thank you.
Thanks, greg, Appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I'm glad to have you, bob.
So if you haven't followed Bob,bob's been very involved in
workers' compensation for anumber of years and has spoken
at many different conferences,and we wanted to talk today
about continuing education, andI think we joke about this a lot
that none of us when we were inkindergarten thought we were
(02:35):
going to become workers'compensation experts and there
aren't really degrees for that.
There are some risk and safetydegrees, I think, at a few
colleges, but for the most part,everybody got into the industry
one way or another, and so Ifelt like covering a topic of
continuing education would begood.
So, bob, I know for you it'sbeen a while since we did this
(02:58):
previous episode.
I thought we'd just start bytalking about how did you end up
in the industry?
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Well and we may have even talked about that in the
last time we did this and theanswer is probably the same as
everybody else, I got here byaccident, completely by accident
.
I had background in businessmanagement and human resources.
I ended up starting a webdevelopment firm in the 90s
which was fairly successful andthrough that was introduced to a
(03:23):
gentleman who owned the domainworkerscompensationcom and had
never done anything with it, andwe had a common vision for what
could happen and we decided in1999 to set that up and that's
what I actually did.
For almost 23 years I ranworkerscompensationcom and you
get into this industry, I tellpeople it's like Hotel
California you can check out,but you can never, ever leave
(03:45):
Once you're here.
You're here and it's a greatindustry.
And I left that previousposition last year to start
something new but obviouslywanted to stay around.
There's still things to do here, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
I wanted to ask the same question to Mike, because
I've hosted I don't know howmany episodes with you, Mike,
but I don't think I've everasked you this question.
So how did you end up inworkers' comp?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
You know, greg, I don't really know.
No, I'm just kidding, and Iappreciate you calling us all
experts on this, because I'm notsure I'm an expert, I'm not
sure you can ever be an expert?
No.
So I went to University ofMaryland and I studied criminal
justice and I had high hopes ofbeing the next Jason Bourne or
an FBI agent.
(04:31):
And for one reason or anotherthat process didn't really work
out.
And so my dad was actually ininsurance for 50 years, started
in claims and said hey man, whydon't you look at insurance?
And so a job opening cameavailable at a larger insurance
carrier.
I went into it and said youknow what?
We'll give it six months, likewe'll do this for six months and
(04:51):
I'll find something else to do.
And it's been almost 15 years.
So it's.
You know, I didn't mean to getinto it, but I've learned a ton
along the way.
I think it's an unbelievablecareer and I think in general I
know there's some riskmanagement programs in college,
but it's an under I don't wantto say under known field, but
it's underutilized how good of acareer path it can be for folks
(05:14):
coming out of college, and Ithink the vast majority of us
fall into it and then end upstaying, like Bob said, for
forever.
So I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
You told everybody your story,greg, but what about you?
Is it similar?
You just kind of like decidedyou were going to handle work on
claims one day, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
No.
So for me, I was also acriminal justice major, and at
the time, though, I was doingnon-for-profit fundraising for
Indiana University and loved it,love giving back, like helping
people passionate about it.
I felt like if I could helppeople get an education, then
they could fix a lot of theirown problems, hopefully.
So I really love doing that.
(05:52):
But at the time I was young andcrazy.
We got my wife and I have beenwe'll be married 20 years coming
up, but we got married while Iwas in college, and so we
already had a baby.
While I was going to school,and as I was trying to figure
out how to graduate, I met withthe people at the foundation to
further my career there, andthey said you've already got a
(06:13):
kid, do you want more?
And I said, well, my wife jokesthat she wants 10.
And he said then you need toget out of non-for-profit, you
need to figure something elseout.
And I said, well, I don't havea business degree, I'm a
criminal justice major and Idon't think I want to go on to
law school.
And so they said, well, go to acareer fair, go talk to the
business people.
You've been doing the samething in non-for-profit, just
(06:33):
switch over and then give backwith your extra time in the
non-for-profit sector.
So that's kind of the way I'vetook things.
And again similar story.
The way I've took things andagain similar story.
I'm at a large carrier, at acareer fair, and knew absolutely
nothing about workers' comp.
But I knew I needed a paycheckand a way in.
And here I am, almost 20 yearslater.
(06:55):
So very similar, very similar.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
What I'm hearing is criminal justice majors don't do
what they go to school for.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
I'm kind of picking that up.
I have a nephew who justgraduated from the Cary School
of Law University of Marylandand he's now he's a new
assistant state's attorney inFrederick, maryland actually.
But he didn't go the criminaljustice route, but he did have
to go pursue on beyond into lawschool to do something.
So apparently, criminal justiceyou end up in workers' comp.
Now that's probably a wholeblog in there somewhere, I would
(07:27):
think.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
That's exactly right.
When I was going to school,9-11 happened.
So I was a business major tobegin with, and when 9-11
happened I thought, well, if Iswitch to criminal justice, in
this new world there'll be job,and so that really why I
switched.
But I didn't know I would endup in this space.
But it's worked out really wellbecause again, we get to help
people, not to sidebar tooquickly.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
But I think what that proves since we're talking
about education and continuingeducation unless you're going
into something very specific,right so like a science or law
or things where the degree trulylike what degree you get truly
matters, what you major in incollege is just a stepping stone
to get into the working world.
It is not a dictation of whereyou have to go.
And I think people like I thinkcollege students, are like man,
(08:12):
if I don't do this, I don't dothis, I don't do this, it's not
going to work out.
And I think what we've allrealized at least what I've
realized is what I studied incollege has nothing to do with
what I'm doing now.
I mean, there are things Ilearned in college that I can
apply, but I think people put somuch weight on their major and
what they're majoring in andunless you're going into a
specialized field, really it'sjust a proof that you can do the
(08:33):
work to an employer.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
I agree with that.
I have a bachelor's degree inbusiness administration and
really in college what youlearned was the discipline to
learn and how to then learn yourjob once you got out of college
.
I mean, there were some thingsin a business world and business
school that certainly apply,but a lot of it is you know, you
have to get out of the schooland fall on your face a few
(08:56):
times in the trenches and that'syour education.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
I exactly agree with both of you, and I think that's
especially in this industry, andprobably all industries.
I think that's where continuingeducation is so important.
Once you get into the careerthat you're moving into, it's
recognizing the skill sets youneed and then finding the
resources to help you improveand really sharpen your saw.
(09:20):
You know from your perspective,bob, why do you feel like
constantly learning is important?
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Well, I think, because things constantly change
.
You know, we're not the sameindustry we were 20 years ago or
30 years ago or 50 years ago,you know, and to some degree,
this industry, particularly it'sso heavily regulated and
process driven that there are alot of things that we do because
we've always done it this wayand I think there are better
ways out there.
I am curious, and I think it'sbeen a trend in the industry.
(09:48):
You said you were in school at9-11.
You had just joined theindustry.
After that what level?
And not naming it you were witha different company than the
one you're with today.
Correct, correct, yes, oh, good, so we don't have the name, but
we can talk about it.
We don't.
Yes, what was the quality oftraining that you went through
20 years ago?
What was the training program?
Like, you're a newbie, youdon't know anything about comp,
(10:10):
like the rest of us.
When you step in, what was yourtraining?
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I think initially I probablyworked a month or so where I
had a manager that would sitwith me sometimes or there was a
senior adjuster that would help.
And then sometime in thatperiod, within the first maybe
two months, maybe six weeks,they sent me to home office for
two weeks and it was two weeksof generic kind of workers'
(10:36):
claims training.
They couldn't get intojurisdictional specifics because
they were bringing people in inthis national carrier from all
over the country.
So you know, but you at leastlearned where the system was and
how to basically investigate aclaim.
I think we might've even done amock negotiation.
But then after that it's likeyou're back at your desk trying
(10:56):
to figure this stuff out.
And what's hard about workers'comp and I don't know if you
noticed this, mike, when youstarted out is every claim's
different and just a coupledifferent facts means you got to
go a totally different routeand trying to understand the
medical component, the legalcomponent, the jurisdictional
component, the investigativecomponent, how to work with
(11:20):
others, how to listen, like alot of those things.
It was a lot.
It felt like I was drinkingfrom the fire hose, especially
the first three years, I wouldsay.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Well, I'm curious about that because one of the
trends I noticed and I startedin 99, and I went a different
route.
I didn't have a claimsbackground, I was an information
services background serving theindustry.
But one of the things I noticedin my discussions with people
around the country is after thedot-com bubble burst, which was
early in 2000.
I know because I launched adot-com operation about three
(11:51):
weeks before it busted.
It was like showing up at a bigrave three seconds ahead of the
cops, but anyway it was where'severybody going?
But prior to that time,training was probably more
prevalent than it has become inthe last 15 years across the
industry.
After the investment income forthe insurance industry went
away, there were some goodprograms that got cut.
(12:12):
Training seemed to get cut andwe concentrated more on stealing
each other's people.
And now, of course, we'rerunning out of people to steal.
And that's kind of what droveus to where I'm at now is that I
think it's really becoming anurgent focus to get back and
refocus on the core elements andtrain people so that we can
(12:35):
actually keep the people webring in, because you're a
different generation than what'scoming in today and no one ever
agrees with the generationsbehind them, but they have
different focus, they havedifferent needs.
They want to make a difference.
I'm a boomer, okay, I'm a boomer, okay, I, I'm a boomer.
I was taught to do my job andsuck it up and feed your family.
And if you don't like your jobtoo bad, do your job.
(12:57):
That's not the way people feelcoming out of school.
They want to make a difference.
But if you look at how we marketourselves as an industry, you
know people coming out ofcollege they think we're a
heavily regulated, stodgy,paper-driven industry that
manages files, when in realitywe need to market ourselves as
and I've said this before weneed to market ourselves as an
industry that actually repairsbroken and shattered lives.
(13:20):
That's a very noble effort ifwe do it properly, and that's
the element that we need totrain people in and I think
that's kind of been lost.
That's why I asked thatquestion early on about the type
of training you went through,and I don't know if you've seen
the same type of degradationoverall in training from an
industry perspective.
And I'm not talking about theprograms that are available.
We'll talk, you know, I knowtoday about several that are
(13:41):
good programs, but internalcorporate training is the focus.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, I would agree.
I do think you called me oldthere, though, Bob, because you
said I'm from a differentgeneration than the current one.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Well, I think I did.
I call you old.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
But I'll tell you there's a shocking reality and
you just I could tell from thedates you gave you were in
school 20 years after I was inschool.
Ok, so you're still in forshocking realities.
When people who don't seem muchyounger than you start calling
you sir, you know you're introuble.
That's happening to me.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Well, I have my like I said earlier my daughter's
graduating from high school thisyear.
So I'm going to officially havea college, a college age child.
So I think I think I'm earningit.
But I think you hit on somethings there that were really
important.
I think you hit on some thingsthere that were really important
and I think the problem thatI'm seeing now in the industry
and I'll be interested in Mike'stake on this is, I think, that
(14:38):
we lost a lot of people throughgreat resignation during COVID.
A lot of people went intoretirement and that caused, like
you had mentioned earlier,companies stealing each other's
people and then allowing peopleto work remotely.
But the new challenges that'screated is a lot of people had
to enter the industry who had toimmediately start handling
(15:01):
claims, and they may have evenentered the industry in a remote
location without the ability tosit in an office or to learn
from people, and they weren'table to travel for a while there
when they were being onboarded.
So I think we've got someunique challenges that have come
out of what we've just come outof as an industry Thoughts on
that.
Mike.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
No, I completely agree.
And I think, Greg, you and Istarted at the same place out of
college, so I had a similarexperience.
Training was fairly robust, Iwill say.
Training made me think thatevery claim was being handled
the exact same way and be kindof easy.
And you quickly realized, likethat is not the case, and so
you're like wait, what, what doyou mean?
Like this is what's supposed tohappen next.
(15:43):
And then the interworkers like,no, but we're going to do this.
So anyways, I think the biggestdifference that I've seen.
I agree with you completely,Greg.
I actually think last time thethree of us were talking, we
talked about in-office,out-of-office stuff.
Funny enough, Bob, I agree withyou.
The training when I started wasvery robust.
We had groups that werededicated to training.
That's all they did and that'swhat they were focused on, and
(16:13):
they were really, really good atit.
And I think now we're good attraining people and I think we
have the best intentions, butwe're asking folks who already
have a full-time job to thentrain people.
And that gets very difficult andthrough no fault of your own.
Greg, on our last podcast youtalked about the fact that you
sit with folks and it's a lot oftime right and you also have
your whole job that you're doing.
But you do it because it'slong-term, you get good benefit
from it and everything else, butit's really hard to do, and so
(16:34):
when we're bringing new people.
In a lot of the times it's onthe manager or the supervisor or
a senior to really get thatperson up to speed, and that
senior, that supervisor, has1,200 other things to do.
So it gets really tough to be afull-time trainer and a
full-time supervisor and afull-time claims adjuster and
(16:55):
that's really hard and there's alot of great resources out
there, but I think that's madeit tough.
And then, from a claimsperspective, working from home
and not hearing people aroundyou is really hard.
One of the biggest ways that Ilearned was on the job,
listening to all the adjusterssitting around me just having
conversations, and oh, that'show you handle that situation.
Or oh, that's how you talk tothat attorney.
Or oh, those are the questionsthat you ask.
(17:15):
Or I could just stand up and saydid I sound like an idiot?
What should I ask next time?
That stuff is real.
And if you don't have that,it's really hard to get up to
speed and to learn.
Because, talking aboutcontinuing education, I'm still
learning things about work compevery single day, like things I
(17:38):
did not know or things, statutesI didn't know or different
states I didn't know, and so Ithink that's what I've seen.
The biggest change in is thatwe're asking more of people with
less resources.
These days, I think Companieslike to run lean, but that gets
really hard when it comes tosomething like training.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
That's what I would say run lean, but that gets
really hard when it comes tosomething like trading.
That's what I would say.
Well, and I think your point isexcellent, because one of the
challenges we have is we look torecruit and replace these
people we've lost.
They're working in a remoteenvironment, but they don't want
to work in an office.
They want now the flexibilityto work at Starbucks or wherever
they want to work and when theywant to work, and that's a
(18:11):
challenge.
I agree with you.
There's so much to me.
Through the pandemic, I was veryfortunate that virtual worked
well for us.
I mean, it just worked, but youstill lose if you're in.
I would not want to be a 20something coming out of college
today and not have that officeenvironment where you can learn
so much just by osmosis becauseyou're around the people.
(18:32):
As it happens, I was talking tosomeone the other day who said
I used to be able to spot whereI could stand up in my cubicle
and say, hey, anybody ever dealtwith this particular issue and
someone would stand up and haveit.
So there might be some toolstoday.
I think they've got Yammer andsome other internal
communication devices wherepeople can use that, but it's
still not necessarily the same,and that's one of the challenges
(18:53):
I think we're going to facegoing forward, because we're not
going to be able, even thoughit's important for that young
and experienced person to getinto an office, they may not
know that and they may not wantto go, and you may not be able
to hire them based on the factthat you're insisting they come
to an office and they won't doit.
So I think that's one of thebig challenges we have as an
industry.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I think you're spot on, and for a lot of
organizations that may not havethe resources for a robust
training program that Mike and Iwent through then figuring out
how do you get people to thatnext spot and how do you help
develop them.
I know, bob, one of the thingsthat you've been working on this
last year is a program calledWorkCompCollegecom, and so I
(19:35):
wanted you to fill me in alittle bit on that, because I do
think that's pretty new, if I'mright.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
It is Thanks.
We officially launched inNovember and our first
certification program, calledthe Workers Recovery
Professional Certification, wentfully live on January 14th or
15th.
We really wanted to, and thereare good training programs in
the industry available forpeople.
But one of the things that Ithink has not been given its
(20:01):
full service was an emphasis onthe biopsychosocial elements
that, as Mike said earlier andyou said earlier, claims are not
always the same, and one reasonthey're not the same is because
the injured worker we'redealing with can handle it in a
completely different manner thanthe previous injured worker
with the identical injury.
It's the differences of what'sgoing on in their head that
(20:21):
really matters and as anindustry I don't think we've
been as strong as we need to bein training, that communication
and that understanding, theability to listen and to really
understand the broader pictureof what's happening in that
injured worker's life.
And that's what torpedoes a lotof the claims that we see go
off the rails.
So we really set up a coursethat's based on the
(20:42):
biopsychosocial element.
We call it whole personrecovery management.
We set up nine schools ofdiscipline.
We have a school of claims,school of medical management,
school of legal, school ofregulatory legislative.
We have a school of claims,school of medical management,
school of legal school ofregulatory legislative.
We have a school ofstakeholders.
I've returned to work I'mprobably going to forget them as
I go through because we wantedto give a whole picture, not
(21:04):
just to understand what's goingon in that injured worker's life
and that you need to know thetechnical aspects of doing your
job, but to understand why yourjob in comp is important.
What's the big picture?
That's.
The second thing is we've cameto realize that a lot of people
don't really understand whathappens outside their little
sphere of influence and how, ifthey don't do their job one
(21:25):
particular way, or somebodyalong the line doesn't do their
job properly, the entire thingcan go off the rails.
So we call it work comp 360 waskind of the phrase we picked up
just to get it so that peoplecoming out have a better
understanding of the compindustry in general.
So that's really was one of ourfocuses, to do that, and we've
been very fortunate.
We've got a couple hundredstudents in the system already.
(21:46):
We've got people starting tograduate with certifications,
which is really good.
It's a difficult thing 64courses, 50, some hours of
content in that program, but Ithink we're getting tremendous
feedback and hopefully we'll beable to make a difference in
some of this.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
That's awesome.
So in that program, is it alldone online?
Are you meeting virtually, oris it self-driven where you're,
you know you're doing thereading yourself and then and
taking a test, or how does thecoursework set up?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
It's all done online.
It is self-guided and they'reself-driven, on your own, at
your own pace.
Every course includes a lecturevideo and these we have.
I will say one thing that'sreally neat is we've had people
dozens of people step up.
They came to us.
We didn't have to seek peopleout.
They wanted to help build abetter industry and they want to
leave a better industry thanthey found and we've got some
(22:39):
incredible and incrediblytalented people working.
We've got a board of trustees.
We've got deans of each schooland a lot of really skilled
faculty.
They have recorded videolectures.
There are transcripts of thelectures, there are other
resources and links available ineach individual class and there
is a graded test for everycourse and you have to have a
(23:00):
70% or better on each test topass the individual course test
and there is a final exam thatyou need to maintain an average
of 80% or better.
We put in certain protections.
You cannot fast forward thevideos.
We restrict that.
I have a business partner whodiscovered that when he tried to
zip through a couple of classesand he wasn't able to fast
forward, he had to actuallywatch the lecture.
(23:21):
We have in addition to thetesting.
You can't fast forward throughthe videos.
Even our certification form,when it's issued, has a QR code
that anybody can scan to verifythe validity of the
certification, so it can't befake.
So we've tried to put inprotections to counter the fact
that it's an all virtual system.
We eventually would like tohave some live events, but right
(23:43):
now off the ground it's allonline, all virtual, awesome.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, I think these kinds of resources are
definitely needed in theindustry and just getting
different ways for people toexpand their depth.
I've seen some of the folks onyour website that are involved
and know several of them andthey are fantastic, so
definitely worth checking into.
So there are lots of ways tofurther your education in the
(24:11):
insurance industry and, mike,you took the route of the
institutes as one of those pathsby getting your CPCU.
So I thought, knowing how hardthat is to get, having done
several of the sections myself,I just wanted you to talk a
little bit about one.
What motivated you to do thatand what did you think of the
(24:31):
process?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, that's a great question, Greg.
So I started it probably fouror five years into my career and
at that time I think I quicklyrealized I wasn't going to be in
insurance six months, I wasprobably going to be here for a
lot longer.
And so I was going back andforth on.
I knew I wanted to do moreeducation, whether it was an MBA
(24:53):
or something more industryspecific and what I landed on
was I'm learning a lot of thesame things I would getting an
MBA, but it's all tailored toinsurance, which is really what
I was looking for.
So I like to call it the CBCU,the Masters of Insurance, just
because I have one now.
So I get to say that.
But it was tough, I mean in fulltransparency.
(25:15):
My dad kind of pushed me to doit.
He was the Maryland chapterpresident of the CBCU for a long
time.
He taught a lot of the courses.
So I had a really good advocatein my corner that when I had
questions on stuff I could calland say, hey, what's this or
what's that?
But it's pretty intense.
I mean it's eight sections oreight, basically courses with a
test at the end, everything frominsurance operations to finance
(25:37):
to commercial property.
You really run the gambit ofinsurance and I just felt like
it would make me a morewell-rounded insurance
professional, regardless of whatindustry or what area of the
industry I wanted to go into.
The tests are not easy.
I think a lot of them havefairly high fail rates.
I was fortunate enough thatwhen you go through it and you
(25:58):
do it, and you go to a testingcenter to do all the tests and
there's a screen at the end thattells you whether you passed or
you failed, and there's like athree-second delay doesn't come
up, and so you sit there in justlike the most intense
anticipation of like, did I pass, Did I pass, Did I pass?
And I fortunately passed all ofthe tests the first time.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
You know they build that in just to tease you.
They could just produce theresults like that.
They just want you to sufferfor a few seconds.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Every other screen somehow pops up right away, but
that one it waits just longenough for you to be sweating.
But no, greg, I think it.
Just you know I had always onlybeen in work comp I for the
most part have only done workcomp and it really opened my
eyes to policy structure and thedifferent lines of business and
kind of how insurance companiesare run and what the finances
and the balance sheets look like, and it just it gave me a
(26:49):
better understanding so thatwhen I'm in conversations or I'm
talking to different groups ofpeople, I have a better
understanding of what they dowhen it comes to our industry.
And back to what Bob saidbefore, it helps you get a
broader picture of where whatyou do fits in with the entirety
of of of the product that we'reoffering and of what we're
doing.
So it's a long winded answer,but I just I knew I wanted to do
(27:11):
more education and I decidedthat going with something that
was industry specific worked forme, because I plan on
completing my entire career ininsurance.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
I think you definitely hit on some things.
You know I've taken three of thecourses and completed them
first time, but they're hard and, as you mentioned before, it's
very much the 5,000-foot viewover all of insurance, and so I
think that's probably thedifference, if we're talking
about a workcompcollegecomexperience versus the CPCU is
(27:42):
you might spend five and I mightbe giving too much credit here
but 5% focused on workers' compbecause there's a lot of
liability, there's a lot ofproperty, there's a lot of
financial, so it is riskmanagement ideas.
So, understanding how everythingconnects, I think you get a
really good picture through theCPCU from the 5,000-foot view of
(28:05):
all lines, but it is not thezeroed-in work comp only, so
there's value in both.
I think I actually did this ismy claim to fame I did some
video clips for the associate inclaims that they have, which is
probably the step I wouldencourage folks who haven't done
anything to start with ifthey're going to go down that
path, and some of those at leastone of the courses I believe
(28:27):
transfers over for your CPCU, soit's not a wasted effort if you
decide to go down that road.
Bob, have you had anyinteractions with the institutes
before?
Speaker 3 (28:36):
I really have not and it was interesting to listen to
Mike's description because herelates to my understanding of
what they do in the broadspectrum A good program, very
broad across multiple lines.
In a lot of ways I talk aboutthe RIMS event sometimes and
workers comp is always like theredheaded stepchild in RIMS.
(28:57):
You know it's five or 10% ofany contact that RIMS is
national is sometimes dedicatedto comp and that's kind of the
way the industry I think.
I think we have a feelingsometimes that we don't get the
full attention that we may wantfrom other avenues.
But insurance industry is hugeand it's understandable from the
lines of the business in theseother, in the other lines, the
(29:19):
volume of the other lines ofbusiness, why that may be the
case.
But yeah, he gave myunderstanding that you did.
Now it's not my place to askyou questions because you're the
host, but you know what can Isay?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I can ask myself questions, but this is like my
second time here, so I'm goingto ask you questions because
you're the host but what can Isay?
Speaker 3 (29:32):
This is like my second time here, so I'm going
to ask you a question, because Iknow you said earlier you do
teaching for CLM as well, theCLM College, claims College.
You want to tell people whatthat is, or can you add to the
story for that?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Absolutely so.
Clm stands for ClaimsLitigation Management.
It's a group of a lot ofattorneys.
There is a carrier involvementas well, and they do a
three-year designation, and sothis is actually an in-person
event where you go to I thinkright now it's in Baltimore for
about four days of in-class workin person, and then after year
(30:10):
one, you complete a test andthen you go back for year two
and the next year, take the nextround, and then year three is
your final year, and then thatone, instead of taking a test,
you do a group presentationwhere they actually give you a
case study of workers' comp, andso what's kind of nice about
that is you are getting thein-person piece.
(30:32):
The challenge with that isyou're going to have to work for
an employer that's going toallow for you to travel, and it
is at a hotel.
There's three or four days outof the office where you're fully
going to be engaged indifferent lectures from
different professionalsthroughout the industry who are
teaching.
So I think it has its ownbenefits and, of course, its own
(30:54):
challenges.
I believe you can do year oneonline now, and I don't know if
they're bringing that back inperson, but during the pandemic
they switched that one, so thatwould be a good way for people
to see if that's something thatthey like and it is directly
related to workers' comp, butthey also do designations for
other lines, so if you werelistening to this and you're a
(31:17):
property person.
They've got something going onthat same week for that.
The work comp group.
It's usually about 20 or sostudents, I would say each year
that go through the program, 20or 30.
And there's several hundredwhen you start looking at all
the different lines.
So so definitely interesting.
We've had several of our peoplego through it and I think you
(31:37):
get a good flavor of workerscomp.
Again, it has to be somewhatgeneric because you've got
people coming from all over thecountry so you can't talk about
Virginia workers comp you knowthis high level best practices,
(31:58):
national focus overview.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
One of the things we're developing, that will be
launching this summer, are 50different state specific modules
being produced with statepartners that will cover legal
claims, ethics, the specifics ofdoing business in each given
state.
You need that.
I mean you can you do come outof this training and and you
still need to know what's thefiling requirement, what's the
waiting period, what's you knowwhat?
What's the fine If I don't getthis form checked off in the
(32:21):
proper amount of time, all thosenuances.
It's difficult because comp, aswe like to say, is exactly the
same yet totally different inevery state.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right and you could bethinking you're doing it right
and if you don't know thejurisdiction you're in, you
could be doing it completelywrong and find yourself in some
trouble if you don't know thejurisdiction you're in, you
could be doing it completelywrong and find yourself in some
trouble.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Is CLM CCP designation?
Is that the one dedicated tocomp?
Is that the designation.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Yes, yes, and we've had a few of our folks go
through it and I think thatthird year, when you do your own
presentation, they give them apretty difficult workers'
compensation claim and then havethem present as a group what
they would do in retrospectbecause it's kind of at the end
point and kind of see wheremaybe some of the challenges how
did it get to that spot andwhat were things that could be
(33:07):
done to either get it back onthe rails or could have been
done earlier to keep it fromgoing down that?
Speaker 3 (33:13):
path.
Yeah, I know somebody who wentthrough that and was very
complimentary of that particularportion of the program, thought
it was very useful to have thatteam effort and collaboration,
which is pretty valuable.
I think you can learn a lotjust in that process, absolutely
.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Absolutely of the themes is that it sounds like
we're all folks that want tolearn, right, like I just want
to know more.
And if I don't know the answerto something, it's instead of
asking someone I want to gofigure out why, or but I think
it's.
I had this conversationyesterday, funny enough, with I
was sitting with a group ofagents having lunch and I was
(33:49):
talking to a woman who was ateacher for like 13 years and
for one reason or another, sheneeded to get into a different
industry and so she kind of cameinto insurance not knowing
anything, and she came in withone role and then a couple of
folks moved on fairly quicklyand so they had different things
they were doing and she saidwell, I'll learn that, I want to
learn that, I'll learn that Ican do that.
(34:10):
Let me see if I can figure thatout.
And what quickly dawned on meis continuing education isn't
just signing up for a course orgoing to a conference.
It's as simple as saying, OK, Iwant to know where my data
comes from, so let me get moreversed in how we do our data.
Or I want to learn whatunderwriting is doing, so let me
go sit with somebody for alittle bit and really understand
(34:30):
what they do.
And I think what people need tounderstand coming out of
college is it's great to haveyour job and do your job and be
really good at your job, but ifthat's all you're interested in
doing, it's not going to takeyou the farthest right.
So the people that are curious,the people that say, hey, I
want to learn this, or hey, Iwant to do this project, or hey,
I want to push myself outsidemy comfort zone and do this,
(34:50):
those people become invaluableto an organization, and so I
think that's overlooked.
For continuing education, allthese resources are awesome and
they're something that should beutilized, but it can be as
simple as saying I just want tolearn how to do this at your
current job, and that'ssomething that I think I don't
know, if you guys agree, butthat gets overlooked.
I do my job and my job is myjob and that's it.
(35:13):
But the people that I find mostsuccessful are those that get
outside of the comfort zone andsay, hey, I want to do this
project, or I want to learn this, or I want to go do that.
I mean, look at me, I switchedfrom claims to sales and
distribution two years ago andcompletely changed the
trajectory of my career becauseI wanted to try something
different and wanted tounderstand the totality of our
industry and what we do from adifferent perspective.
So you know, that's just not aquestion, just kind of a thought
(35:37):
on that from you guys.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
I think you're absolutely right.
I think there's a difference.
And there's the type ofemployee that wants to.
You know, there's a type ofemployee who's counting the days
to retirement Okay.
And then there's the type ofemployee who continually wants
to find a better way to dosomething, expand their horizons
, maybe want to step intoanother area for different
(36:00):
challenges.
They like the challenges.
And those are the people thatare generally looking for the
education to improve themselvesand to take on those challenges.
Those are the more successfulpeople.
I mean, I think in our mindthere are stereotypes of the
jaded professional that's justbeen sitting at a desk for 20
years and just can't wait untilthe day they're done.
And then there are those whojust can't wait for the next
(36:21):
step and the next challenge andsomething they haven't dealt
with before.
And you said something thatreally struck me, because in my
previous life, previous company,we dealt with a lot of very,
very large insurance carriersand wonderful people, really
great people in this industry.
I love this industry, butDilbert is alive and well in
corporate America.
Okay, when you startnegotiating with some of these
(36:43):
companies, you realize howlittle, how heavily siloed some
companies are.
So you mentioned somethingabout underwriting.
There are people in claims whohave absolutely no clue what
goes on in underwriting andbusiness development and vice
versa, and I've actuallylistened to calls where people
have to negotiate amongstdepartments in their own company
to get something done whenthey're trying to bring in an
(37:06):
external service.
And people who routinely reachout to understand what's going
on in those other areas andwhat's happening in the bigger
picture have much moreflexibility and much more
ability to advance, and I thinkthat's important.
But I don't even think they doit because they want to advance.
They want to do it because it'sjust a chance to do something
different and a differentchallenge.
(37:27):
I really do think that mattersto a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yeah, and I think you hit on something there that the
goal of a company is to hirevery talented people that are
well-rounded.
And if you are only in one area, and that's all you know, and
that's all you learn it's veryhard to become well-rounded and
I know Key Risk and same forBerkeley Industrial.
We want people to learn whateverybody else does and we want
people to collaborate and talkand everything else, and all
(37:51):
that does is benefit theemployer.
It makes your employees morewell-rounded.
It makes them more talented.
I've always said I want to hirethe most talented people.
I can teach you the technical,but if you have the want to
learn and the want to absorbinformation and the want to be
curious and learn more about howwhat you do impacts the bigger
picture, those by far are themost successful people.
(38:12):
I can teach you the rates inVirginia and the statutory rules
in Maryland.
That's stuff that can be taught.
But people that want to learnand I agree with you, bob those
people are generally also thepeople that are going to reach
out to you and come to work oncollege.
They're the people that aregoing to get their CBCU.
They're the people that aregoing to do the CLM, and I think
it's no secret that those folksgenerally are the ones that
(38:33):
just want to know more and bemore well-rounded that.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Just want to know more and be more well-rounded.
Greg, what are your thoughts?
I agree, and I think everycompany allocates different
resources to training.
So one of the things I thoughtmaybe just to talk a step
further is it may be thatsomebody who's listening to this
podcast and where they'reworking unfortunately doesn't
invest in training, but theywant to know more, and so what
does that person do?
(38:57):
And I was thinking about someof the ways in my own career
where I've learned.
Some companies may even bestate funds or situations where
the budgets are very limited andtrying to go to a conference
would need to be approved twoyears in advance or three years
in advance because of how tightthings are run.
(39:17):
So in those scenarios, what aresome other ways that people can
learn, Bob or Michael, I'llthrow that to either of you.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Well, I think there's an explosion in our industry of
podcasts and webinars such asthis, where people can go and
learn about specific topics.
Some are extremely technical,you know, and in nature those
are great resources.
They don't require travel, youknow there are good.
As you said, they have troublegetting to conferences.
(39:45):
I think you know it'sinteresting after the pandemic,
some conferences attempted ahybrid of in-person and you know
you could attend remotely anddiscovered immediately that all
companies said, oh, there's aremote option, you're not
traveling, you know, and soyou'll notice now those
conferences aren't remoteanymore, they're not offering
hybrid.
But there are some greatconferences, some great
(40:06):
educational events, I think forpeople looking for information.
Those are some of the areas.
I mean WCRI.
I was just at WCRI in Phoenix,which is a really interesting if
you're a data head, especiallythey really interesting stuff
that they come out, that theyreport on every year.
Wci in Orlando is a bigconference with lots and lots of
educational information andit's not an expensive conference
(40:29):
.
I mean they have it in Orlandoin August and no one wants to be
in Orlando in August, so it's alittle cheaper from hotel
perspectives and the conferenceitself is a few hundred bucks.
It's not a lot of money.
So those are some of the Ithink some of the resources
people can look at.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah, I was.
I was at actually WCI this lastyear as a speaker and at that
conference they even had a livework comp hearing a Florida work
comp hearing that you could goto and sit in.
You had to go through likesecurity and everything but you
could go and see what a hearinglooks like.
They do a live hearing.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
They did a live surgery.
They do live surgery.
Every year they do a livesurgery.
I guess you know your numbergets drawn when you check in at
the register.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Guess what.
Who gets that?
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, right, but I mean, I mean, what a great
opportunity to learn.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
I'm not.
I'm not doing it.
My a couple of my coworkersactually went to the live
surgery and they were psyched.
That is a hard task for me.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
I'm good, I am the type of guy that just doesn't
want to think about the conceptof blood flowing through my
veins.
I just don't want to skip.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
You and I are the same person, bob, I'm the same
way.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
I've been doing WCI for years.
I've never gone to the livesurgery and I don't think I ever
will.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Well, and you mentioned WCRI and they do some
fantastic.
I mean, if you want research,heavy research within very
specific states, they'refantastic.
I have read quite a few oftheir articles and they actually
provide some of the best statespecific guides that you can get
(41:57):
each year if you just need thebasics or if you want to go deep
Well, greg, I'm going to quoteyour boss, who used to be at Key
Risk.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Google is your friend .
I don't know how many timesI've heard Mike Martin say that,
but it's 100% true.
And so, look, I'll go back towhat I said earlier and I think
you guys make great points, butit costs you nothing to ask a
question.
It costs you nothing to networkand get to know good people
Right now could walk into ScottHolbrook's office tomorrow and
say, hey, man, talk to me abouthow you got where you are.
(42:41):
Or hey, I want to know morespecifically about our CFO calls
and how we work with Berkeleyas a whole.
And it costs you nothing to askquestions and be inquisitive
and reach out to folks andreally network within your own
company or just in the industryin general.
That that's something that getsoverlooked.
It's great to go to aconference, but one of the
biggest things I get out of aconference is the networking and
(43:03):
getting to know folks that dothings differently than I do and
aligning myself with thosepeople to figure out what they
do.
That is a big thing to me andthat costs me nothing.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
I will tell you and I agree with that completely, but
along those lines and tyinginto conferences, we work real
heavily with the SouthernAssociation of Workers
Compensation Administrators,saca.
About 20 states belong to SACA.
That is an outstanding groupfor casual conversations about
how to address issues andchallenges in comp and how
people process things.
(43:36):
And you're talking toregulators from the various
states.
They're very open, they're veryapproachable.
I've always enjoyed thosemeetings and a lot of our.
I've gotten great ideas, infact, when we're building
WorkComp College, they were verysupportive of what we were
doing and we got great feedbackfrom state regulators on what
needed to be done.
So it's helpful.
(43:57):
Talking to people is and you'reright, you could do it in a
lunchroom.
When you go to a conference,it's important to go to the
sessions, but you should also goto the networking events and
talk to people, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Absolutely Well.
The last thing I wanted to hiton, as we kind of wrap up this
topic, is just how I feel likelearning.
If you want to improve yourself, a lot of that has to be
self-driven.
Of course, your company canoffer you resources and of
course you can wait for thingsto happen, but one of the things
I've learned throughout mycareer is just that when I
(44:30):
recognize an area that I coulddo better in, like Mike said, go
look for the answers to thatand take a self-driven approach.
We're going to have an episodecoming up in the next month or
two.
That's on listening, and I had a360 review 10 years ago and in
that 360 review I got somefeedback that I could prove on
(44:51):
listening and I thought, well,boy, I thought I was pretty good
at this.
And I asked my wife.
She was like, yeah, you'regreat.
But then when I startedrealizing that other people,
some of the people that I wasworking with because I was so
busy and I was moving so fast, Isometimes didn't take the time
to pause and listen and reallyhear them I went and I got a
book on listening, hated it,threw it away, got another book
(45:13):
on listening, loved it andstarted doing some exercises.
So you might go down that pathand what you're pursuing doesn't
work for you.
But then, further down the road, you find that answer if you
keep looking, and so we're goingto hear from the author of that
book in the next month or two,and that should be a fun
discussion as well.
But any other favorite books oravenues that you guys have
(45:34):
taken to learn?
Speaker 3 (45:35):
Well, from a book perspective, there are a couple
that popped to mind that Ireally enjoyed.
There's a book that's been outnow a number of years, From Good
to Great, which is a review ofcertain case studies, business
studies of companies and whatthey've done to make the
difference between just astandard good procedure to
becoming a great organization,and I thought there were some
interesting thoughts in thatbook.
There's another book that Ihaven't seen out in print in
(45:57):
years.
I read it back in the 80s,called Dinosaur Brains.
Couldn't even tell you whowrote it, but it talked about
the instinctual reaction in somepeople fight fright or flight
and how certain people act asdinosaur brains to build little
fiefdoms and empires in thecorporate structure and try and
(46:18):
maintain control throughirrational methods.
Unfortunately, they say thedinosaur brains at that time
could most often be found inaccounting and human resources.
I apologize to anybody who'slistening who's in accounting or
human resources, but it talkedabout the instinctual reactions
that some people have and how todeal with it.
They build little walls aroundthem.
They don't have direct controlover a lot of things, but they
(46:41):
try and control as much as theycan, and I found it to be a
really insightful book and tothis day, I will sometimes come
across some people and I'll beable to flag them and I think of
dinosaur brains from theirreaction or the way they behave.
It was really a great book ifyou can find an old copy I don't
even know if it's still inprint.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
All right, you're going to make me look.
That's definitely interesting,mike.
How about you?
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Yeah, One book that comes to mind, and Greg.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
I don't know if you guys read it at BIM.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
We honestly, as a leadership group, read it at Key
.
Rest was Extreme Ownership,that's very good, very good and
it's written by John Willink,and it's him and another guy
that are Navy SEALs or were NavySEALs or still are Navy SEALs,
and it's all about, as leaders,kind of owning everything in
your world.
Right, so you own the decisionsthat are made both at your
level and your folks level, butjust owning the results and
(47:29):
owning kind of the directionthat you're taking your team and
it's but it's good for anylevel, right, it's not just
about leadership from a managingpeople perspective, it's just a
different way to look at yourdesk and your life.
And you know you own yourresults and you own the work
that's being put out.
And it taught me one of myworst.
One of the phrases I do dislikethe most is well, I didn't have
(47:52):
the file then, or well, Ididn't, I wasn't involved then,
so I can't blah, blah, blah.
We all own the results right.
We're all one company, we're allone place and we should all
have ownership of, and pride of,the work that we do and what
we're doing.
So that was a pretty influentialbook.
And then, honestly, I'm justinvolved in a lot of online
newsletters and updates indifferent industries and niches.
(48:14):
So, like PEOs or staffing, theyhave organizations that what
they do is they send out dailyupdates on legislation, on
different things that are goingin the industry, how capital and
the rates and interest rateincreases are affecting the
different companies and what'sgoing on there, and I'm heavily
involved in those.
So if you're involved in nichesor you have a lot of a certain
(48:35):
type of business on your desk,go learn about that industry and
there's I will guarantee youthat there are plenty of
newsletters and organizationsthat are that's all they do is
that industry, and it's a reallygood way to kind of just stay
current on what's going on inthe environment and what's going
on that can affect what you'redoing.
So those are two avenues that Iyou know, that helped me affect
(48:58):
what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
So those are two avenues that I you know that
helped me.
I think those are great.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
I've read Extreme Ownership, very, very good book
and a good reminder and I loveit.
He also has a podcast and it'slike it's a little like over the
top intent, but some of thepoints he makes are fantastic.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
Well, and in his industry too, lives are at stake
actual lives so when mistakesare made, there are people whose
lives depend on it.
So it was very good, sodefinitely good recommendations.
Well, I wanted to wrap thingsup this year.
The thing that we're doing thisseason is asking each of our
guests to share somethingthey're grateful for.
I felt like one of the thingsthat I've been on a mission for
(49:38):
the next or for the last severalyears, just to put good vibes
in the universe.
The universe needs it.
So I wanted to throw this oneto Bob and ask you something
that you're grateful for.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
Oh well, obviously I'm grateful for the opportunity
to be on your blog, greg, oryour podcast.
That's what I'm grateful for.
I am actually grateful that forthe last 20-some years my
experience in this industry,that I've had the opportunity to
meet some tremendous people andjust thoroughly enjoy
everything that I've been ableto do.
(50:09):
When you look forward to goingto the office in the morning or
to get up and going to workevery single day, with very rare
exception, that's a realblessing and I've been really
blessed with that.
And even though my job haschanged in the last year, I've
had that opportunity to reallyexpand our horizon and try
something new and create again,and I'm just really, really
(50:30):
grateful for that opportunity.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
Oh, I really love that, Bob.
I know it's really about peoplein the end.
The industry is what we do inour jobs, and I think that's one
of the things, as I reflect onthe time that I've spent in
workers comp, that I'm gratefulfor as well.
So thanks for sharing that.
Thanks again, mike, for joiningme on this episode.
We remind all of our listenersto do right, think differently
(50:56):
and don't forget to care andhope that you join us in two
weeks for our next episode.
Thanks, everybody, you.
Hello everybody and welcome to Adjusted.
I'm your host, greg Hamlin,coming at you from Sweet Home,
Alabama and Berkeley IndustrialComp, and I'm excited to have
you join me for this rebroadcast.
This episode is with a goodfriend of mine, bob Wilson, and
I've known Bob for a number ofyears.
His claim to fame was startingworkerscompensationcom and then
(00:37):
moving on to the education space, and I've really enjoyed having
him on the podcast multipletimes.
But in this episode we reallyfocused on the importance of
continuing education and how dowe help adjusters learn and grow
and advance in their careerthrough deepening their
education.
Bob's new endeavor is focusedon that, and so this was a great
(01:00):
opportunity to talk about thetools that are out there to help
adjusters further their career.
So I hope you enjoy this one.
Remind folks to like, followand share the podcast.
We'd also love it if you leaveus a five-star review so others
can find their way to thepodcast and, as always, remind
our listeners to do right, thinkdifferently and don't forget to
(01:22):
care.
Hope you enjoy this one.
Hello everybody and welcome toAdjusted.
I'm your host, greg Hamlin,coming at you from Berkeley
Industrial Comp and Sweet Home,alabama, and with me is my
co-host for the day.
Mike Gilmartin, mike, you wannaintroduce yourself to everybody
.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, hello everybody .
Mike Gilmartin from Key Risk.
I am in sunny Greensboro, NorthCarolina.
It's going to be like 80degrees today, Greg, so I'm
really excited to be stuckinside.
It's awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I know Well.
Hey, having grown up in theMidwest, I'll take this warmer
weather every day.
So we've got our special guesttoday, bob Wilson, who actually
did an episode with us a whileback.
He is the president ofWorkCompllegecom and has been in
the industry a long time.
Bob, do you want to say hi toeverybody?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Hello everybody, thank you.
Thanks, greg, Appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I'm glad to have you, bob.
So if you haven't followed Bob,bob's been very involved in
workers' compensation for anumber of years and has spoken
at many different conferences,and we wanted to talk today
about continuing education, andI think we joke about this a lot
that none of us when we were inkindergarten thought we were
(02:35):
going to become workers'compensation experts and there
aren't really degrees for that.
There are some risk and safetydegrees, I think, at a few
colleges, but for the most part,everybody got into the industry
one way or another, and so Ifelt like covering a topic of
continuing education would begood.
So, bob, I know for you it'sbeen a while since we did this
(02:58):
previous episode.
I thought we'd just start bytalking about how did you end up
in the industry?
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Well and we may have even talked about that in the
last time we did this and theanswer is probably the same as
everybody else, I got here byaccident, completely by accident
.
I had background in businessmanagement and human resources.
I ended up starting a webdevelopment firm in the 90s
which was fairly successful andthrough that was introduced to a
(03:23):
gentleman who owned the domainworkerscompensationcom and had
never done anything with it, andwe had a common vision for what
could happen and we decided in1999 to set that up and that's
what I actually did.
For almost 23 years I ranworkerscompensationcom and you
get into this industry, I tellpeople it's like Hotel
California you can check out,but you can never, ever leave
(03:45):
Once you're here.
You're here and it's a greatindustry.
And I left that previousposition last year to start
something new but obviouslywanted to stay around.
There's still things to do here, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
I wanted to ask the same question to Mike, because
I've hosted I don't know howmany episodes with you, Mike,
but I don't think I've everasked you this question.
So how did you end up inworkers' comp?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
You know, greg, I don't really know.
No, I'm just kidding, and Iappreciate you calling us all
experts on this, because I'm notsure I'm an expert, I'm not
sure you can ever be an expert?
No.
So I went to University ofMaryland and I studied criminal
justice and I had high hopes ofbeing the next Jason Bourne or
an FBI agent.
(04:31):
And for one reason or anotherthat process didn't really work
out.
And so my dad was actually ininsurance for 50 years, started
in claims and said hey man, whydon't you look at insurance?
And so a job opening cameavailable at a larger insurance
carrier.
I went into it and said youknow what?
We'll give it six months, likewe'll do this for six months and
(04:51):
I'll find something else to do.
And it's been almost 15 years.
So it's.
You know, I didn't mean to getinto it, but I've learned a ton
along the way.
I think it's an unbelievablecareer and I think in general I
know there's some riskmanagement programs in college,
but it's an under I don't wantto say under known field, but
it's underutilized how good of acareer path it can be for folks
(05:14):
coming out of college, and Ithink the vast majority of us
fall into it and then end upstaying, like Bob said, for
forever.
So I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
You told everybody your story,greg, but what about you?
Is it similar?
You just kind of like decidedyou were going to handle work on
claims one day, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
No.
So for me, I was also acriminal justice major, and at
the time, though, I was doingnon-for-profit fundraising for
Indiana University and loved it,love giving back, like helping
people passionate about it.
I felt like if I could helppeople get an education, then
they could fix a lot of theirown problems, hopefully.
So I really love doing that.
(05:52):
But at the time I was young andcrazy.
We got my wife and I have beenwe'll be married 20 years coming
up, but we got married while Iwas in college, and so we
already had a baby.
While I was going to school,and as I was trying to figure
out how to graduate, I met withthe people at the foundation to
further my career there, andthey said you've already got a
(06:13):
kid, do you want more?
And I said, well, my wife jokesthat she wants 10.
And he said then you need toget out of non-for-profit, you
need to figure something elseout.
And I said, well, I don't havea business degree, I'm a
criminal justice major and Idon't think I want to go on to
law school.
And so they said, well, go to acareer fair, go talk to the
business people.
You've been doing the samething in non-for-profit, just
(06:33):
switch over and then give backwith your extra time in the
non-for-profit sector.
So that's kind of the way I'vetook things.
And again similar story.
The way I've took things andagain similar story.
I'm at a large carrier, at acareer fair, and knew absolutely
nothing about workers' comp.
But I knew I needed a paycheckand a way in.
And here I am, almost 20 yearslater.
(06:55):
So very similar, very similar.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
What I'm hearing is criminal justice majors don't do
what they go to school for.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
I'm kind of picking that up.
I have a nephew who justgraduated from the Cary School
of Law University of Marylandand he's now he's a new
assistant state's attorney inFrederick, maryland actually.
But he didn't go the criminaljustice route, but he did have
to go pursue on beyond into lawschool to do something.
So apparently, criminal justiceyou end up in workers' comp.
Now that's probably a wholeblog in there somewhere, I would
(07:27):
think.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
That's exactly right.
When I was going to school,9-11 happened.
So I was a business major tobegin with, and when 9-11
happened I thought, well, if Iswitch to criminal justice, in
this new world there'll be job,and so that really why I
switched.
But I didn't know I would endup in this space.
But it's worked out really wellbecause again, we get to help
people, not to sidebar tooquickly.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
But I think what that proves since we're talking
about education and continuingeducation unless you're going
into something very specific,right so like a science or law
or things where the degree trulylike what degree you get truly
matters, what you major in incollege is just a stepping stone
to get into the working world.
It is not a dictation of whereyou have to go.
And I think people like I thinkcollege students, are like man,
(08:12):
if I don't do this, I don't dothis, I don't do this, it's not
going to work out.
And I think what we've allrealized at least what I've
realized is what I studied incollege has nothing to do with
what I'm doing now.
I mean, there are things Ilearned in college that I can
apply, but I think people put somuch weight on their major and
what they're majoring in andunless you're going into a
specialized field, really it'sjust a proof that you can do the
(08:33):
work to an employer.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
I agree with that.
I have a bachelor's degree inbusiness administration and
really in college what youlearned was the discipline to
learn and how to then learn yourjob once you got out of college
.
I mean, there were some thingsin a business world and business
school that certainly apply,but a lot of it is you know, you
have to get out of the schooland fall on your face a few
(08:56):
times in the trenches and that'syour education.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
I exactly agree with both of you, and I think that's
especially in this industry, andprobably all industries.
I think that's where continuingeducation is so important.
Once you get into the careerthat you're moving into, it's
recognizing the skill sets youneed and then finding the
resources to help you improveand really sharpen your saw.
(09:20):
You know from your perspective,bob, why do you feel like
constantly learning is important?
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Well, I think, because things constantly change
.
You know, we're not the sameindustry we were 20 years ago or
30 years ago or 50 years ago,you know, and to some degree,
this industry, particularly it'sso heavily regulated and
process driven that there are alot of things that we do because
we've always done it this wayand I think there are better
ways out there.
I am curious, and I think it'sbeen a trend in the industry.
(09:48):
You said you were in school at9-11.
You had just joined theindustry.
After that what level?
And not naming it you were witha different company than the
one you're with today.
Correct, correct, yes, oh, good, so we don't have the name, but
we can talk about it.
We don't.
Yes, what was the quality oftraining that you went through
20 years ago?
What was the training program?
Like, you're a newbie, youdon't know anything about comp,
(10:10):
like the rest of us.
When you step in, what was yourtraining?
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I think initially I probablyworked a month or so where I
had a manager that would sitwith me sometimes or there was a
senior adjuster that would help.
And then sometime in thatperiod, within the first maybe
two months, maybe six weeks,they sent me to home office for
two weeks and it was two weeksof generic kind of workers'
(10:36):
claims training.
They couldn't get intojurisdictional specifics because
they were bringing people in inthis national carrier from all
over the country.
So you know, but you at leastlearned where the system was and
how to basically investigate aclaim.
I think we might've even done amock negotiation.
But then after that it's likeyou're back at your desk trying
(10:56):
to figure this stuff out.
And what's hard about workers'comp and I don't know if you
noticed this, mike, when youstarted out is every claim's
different and just a coupledifferent facts means you got to
go a totally different routeand trying to understand the
medical component, the legalcomponent, the jurisdictional
component, the investigativecomponent, how to work with
(11:20):
others, how to listen, like alot of those things.
It was a lot.
It felt like I was drinkingfrom the fire hose, especially
the first three years, I wouldsay.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Well, I'm curious about that because one of the
trends I noticed and I startedin 99, and I went a different
route.
I didn't have a claimsbackground, I was an information
services background serving theindustry.
But one of the things I noticedin my discussions with people
around the country is after thedot-com bubble burst, which was
early in 2000.
I know because I launched adot-com operation about three
(11:51):
weeks before it busted.
It was like showing up at a bigrave three seconds ahead of the
cops, but anyway it was where'severybody going?
But prior to that time,training was probably more
prevalent than it has become inthe last 15 years across the
industry.
After the investment income forthe insurance industry went
away, there were some goodprograms that got cut.
(12:12):
Training seemed to get cut andwe concentrated more on stealing
each other's people.
And now, of course, we'rerunning out of people to steal.
And that's kind of what droveus to where I'm at now is that I
think it's really becoming anurgent focus to get back and
refocus on the core elements andtrain people so that we can
(12:35):
actually keep the people webring in, because you're a
different generation than what'scoming in today and no one ever
agrees with the generationsbehind them, but they have
different focus, they havedifferent needs.
They want to make a difference.
I'm a boomer, okay, I'm a boomer, okay, I, I'm a boomer.
I was taught to do my job andsuck it up and feed your family.
And if you don't like your jobtoo bad, do your job.
(12:57):
That's not the way people feelcoming out of school.
They want to make a difference.
But if you look at how we marketourselves as an industry, you
know people coming out ofcollege they think we're a
heavily regulated, stodgy,paper-driven industry that
manages files, when in realitywe need to market ourselves as
and I've said this before weneed to market ourselves as an
industry that actually repairsbroken and shattered lives.
(13:20):
That's a very noble effort ifwe do it properly, and that's
the element that we need totrain people in and I think
that's kind of been lost.
That's why I asked thatquestion early on about the type
of training you went through,and I don't know if you've seen
the same type of degradationoverall in training from an
industry perspective.
And I'm not talking about theprograms that are available.
We'll talk, you know, I knowtoday about several that are
(13:41):
good programs, but internalcorporate training is the focus.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, I would agree.
I do think you called me oldthere, though, Bob, because you
said I'm from a differentgeneration than the current one.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Well, I think I did.
I call you old.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
But I'll tell you there's a shocking reality and
you just I could tell from thedates you gave you were in
school 20 years after I was inschool.
Ok, so you're still in forshocking realities.
When people who don't seem muchyounger than you start calling
you sir, you know you're introuble.
That's happening to me.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Well, I have my like I said earlier my daughter's
graduating from high school thisyear.
So I'm going to officially havea college, a college age child.
So I think I think I'm earningit.
But I think you hit on somethings there that were really
important.
I think you hit on some thingsthere that were really important
and I think the problem thatI'm seeing now in the industry
and I'll be interested in Mike'stake on this is, I think, that
(14:38):
we lost a lot of people throughgreat resignation during COVID.
A lot of people went intoretirement and that caused, like
you had mentioned earlier,companies stealing each other's
people and then allowing peopleto work remotely.
But the new challenges that'screated is a lot of people had
to enter the industry who had toimmediately start handling
(15:01):
claims, and they may have evenentered the industry in a remote
location without the ability tosit in an office or to learn
from people, and they weren'table to travel for a while there
when they were being onboarded.
So I think we've got someunique challenges that have come
out of what we've just come outof as an industry Thoughts on
that.
Mike.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
No, I completely agree.
And I think, Greg, you and Istarted at the same place out of
college, so I had a similarexperience.
Training was fairly robust, Iwill say.
Training made me think thatevery claim was being handled
the exact same way and be kindof easy.
And you quickly realized, likethat is not the case, and so
you're like wait, what, what doyou mean?
Like this is what's supposed tohappen next.
(15:43):
And then the interworkers like,no, but we're going to do this.
So anyways, I think the biggestdifference that I've seen.
I agree with you completely,Greg.
I actually think last time thethree of us were talking, we
talked about in-office,out-of-office stuff.
Funny enough, Bob, I agree withyou.
The training when I started wasvery robust.
We had groups that werededicated to training.
That's all they did and that'swhat they were focused on, and
(16:13):
they were really, really good atit.
And I think now we're good attraining people and I think we
have the best intentions, butwe're asking folks who already
have a full-time job to thentrain people.
And that gets very difficult andthrough no fault of your own.
Greg, on our last podcast youtalked about the fact that you
sit with folks and it's a lot oftime right and you also have
your whole job that you're doing.
But you do it because it'slong-term, you get good benefit
from it and everything else, butit's really hard to do, and so
(16:34):
when we're bringing new people.
In a lot of the times it's onthe manager or the supervisor or
a senior to really get thatperson up to speed, and that
senior, that supervisor, has1,200 other things to do.
So it gets really tough to be afull-time trainer and a
full-time supervisor and afull-time claims adjuster and
(16:55):
that's really hard and there's alot of great resources out
there, but I think that's madeit tough.
And then, from a claimsperspective, working from home
and not hearing people aroundyou is really hard.
One of the biggest ways that Ilearned was on the job,
listening to all the adjusterssitting around me just having
conversations, and oh, that'show you handle that situation.
Or oh, that's how you talk tothat attorney.
Or oh, those are the questionsthat you ask.
(17:15):
Or I could just stand up and saydid I sound like an idiot?
What should I ask next time?
That stuff is real.
And if you don't have that,it's really hard to get up to
speed and to learn.
Because, talking aboutcontinuing education, I'm still
learning things about work compevery single day, like things I
(17:38):
did not know or things, statutesI didn't know or different
states I didn't know, and so Ithink that's what I've seen.
The biggest change in is thatwe're asking more of people with
less resources.
These days, I think Companieslike to run lean, but that gets
really hard when it comes tosomething like training.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
That's what I would say run lean, but that gets
really hard when it comes tosomething like trading.
That's what I would say.
Well, and I think your point isexcellent, because one of the
challenges we have is we look torecruit and replace these
people we've lost.
They're working in a remoteenvironment, but they don't want
to work in an office.
They want now the flexibilityto work at Starbucks or wherever
they want to work and when theywant to work, and that's a
(18:11):
challenge.
I agree with you.
There's so much to me.
Through the pandemic, I was veryfortunate that virtual worked
well for us.
I mean, it just worked, but youstill lose if you're in.
I would not want to be a 20something coming out of college
today and not have that officeenvironment where you can learn
so much just by osmosis becauseyou're around the people.
(18:32):
As it happens, I was talking tosomeone the other day who said
I used to be able to spot whereI could stand up in my cubicle
and say, hey, anybody ever dealtwith this particular issue and
someone would stand up and haveit.
So there might be some toolstoday.
I think they've got Yammer andsome other internal
communication devices wherepeople can use that, but it's
still not necessarily the same,and that's one of the challenges
(18:53):
I think we're going to facegoing forward, because we're not
going to be able, even thoughit's important for that young
and experienced person to getinto an office, they may not
know that and they may not wantto go, and you may not be able
to hire them based on the factthat you're insisting they come
to an office and they won't doit.
So I think that's one of thebig challenges we have as an
industry.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I think you're spot on, and for a lot of
organizations that may not havethe resources for a robust
training program that Mike and Iwent through then figuring out
how do you get people to thatnext spot and how do you help
develop them.
I know, bob, one of the thingsthat you've been working on this
last year is a program calledWorkCompCollegecom, and so I
(19:35):
wanted you to fill me in alittle bit on that, because I do
think that's pretty new, if I'mright.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
It is Thanks.
We officially launched inNovember and our first
certification program, calledthe Workers Recovery
Professional Certification, wentfully live on January 14th or
15th.
We really wanted to, and thereare good training programs in
the industry available forpeople.
But one of the things that Ithink has not been given its
(20:01):
full service was an emphasis onthe biopsychosocial elements
that, as Mike said earlier andyou said earlier, claims are not
always the same, and one reasonthey're not the same is because
the injured worker we'redealing with can handle it in a
completely different manner thanthe previous injured worker
with the identical injury.
It's the differences of what'sgoing on in their head that
(20:21):
really matters and as anindustry I don't think we've
been as strong as we need to bein training, that communication
and that understanding, theability to listen and to really
understand the broader pictureof what's happening in that
injured worker's life.
And that's what torpedoes a lotof the claims that we see go
off the rails.
So we really set up a coursethat's based on the
(20:42):
biopsychosocial element.
We call it whole personrecovery management.
We set up nine schools ofdiscipline.
We have a school of claims,school of medical management,
school of legal, school ofregulatory legislative.
We have a school of claims,school of medical management,
school of legal school ofregulatory legislative.
We have a school ofstakeholders.
I've returned to work I'mprobably going to forget them as
I go through because we wantedto give a whole picture, not
(21:04):
just to understand what's goingon in that injured worker's life
and that you need to know thetechnical aspects of doing your
job, but to understand why yourjob in comp is important.
What's the big picture?
That's.
The second thing is we've cameto realize that a lot of people
don't really understand whathappens outside their little
sphere of influence and how, ifthey don't do their job one
(21:25):
particular way, or somebodyalong the line doesn't do their
job properly, the entire thingcan go off the rails.
So we call it work comp 360 waskind of the phrase we picked up
just to get it so that peoplecoming out have a better
understanding of the compindustry in general.
So that's really was one of ourfocuses, to do that, and we've
been very fortunate.
We've got a couple hundredstudents in the system already.
(21:46):
We've got people starting tograduate with certifications,
which is really good.
It's a difficult thing 64courses, 50, some hours of
content in that program, but Ithink we're getting tremendous
feedback and hopefully we'll beable to make a difference in
some of this.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
That's awesome.
So in that program, is it alldone online?
Are you meeting virtually, oris it self-driven where you're,
you know you're doing thereading yourself and then and
taking a test, or how does thecoursework set up?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
It's all done online.
It is self-guided and they'reself-driven, on your own, at
your own pace.
Every course includes a lecturevideo and these we have.
I will say one thing that'sreally neat is we've had people
dozens of people step up.
They came to us.
We didn't have to seek peopleout.
They wanted to help build abetter industry and they want to
leave a better industry thanthey found and we've got some
(22:39):
incredible and incrediblytalented people working.
We've got a board of trustees.
We've got deans of each schooland a lot of really skilled
faculty.
They have recorded videolectures.
There are transcripts of thelectures, there are other
resources and links available ineach individual class and there
is a graded test for everycourse and you have to have a
(23:00):
70% or better on each test topass the individual course test
and there is a final exam thatyou need to maintain an average
of 80% or better.
We put in certain protections.
You cannot fast forward thevideos.
We restrict that.
I have a business partner whodiscovered that when he tried to
zip through a couple of classesand he wasn't able to fast
forward, he had to actuallywatch the lecture.
(23:21):
We have in addition to thetesting.
You can't fast forward throughthe videos.
Even our certification form,when it's issued, has a QR code
that anybody can scan to verifythe validity of the
certification, so it can't befake.
So we've tried to put inprotections to counter the fact
that it's an all virtual system.
We eventually would like tohave some live events, but right
(23:43):
now off the ground it's allonline, all virtual, awesome.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, I think these kinds of resources are
definitely needed in theindustry and just getting
different ways for people toexpand their depth.
I've seen some of the folks onyour website that are involved
and know several of them andthey are fantastic, so
definitely worth checking into.
So there are lots of ways tofurther your education in the
(24:11):
insurance industry and, mike,you took the route of the
institutes as one of those pathsby getting your CPCU.
So I thought, knowing how hardthat is to get, having done
several of the sections myself,I just wanted you to talk a
little bit about one.
What motivated you to do thatand what did you think of the
(24:31):
process?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, that's a great question, Greg.
So I started it probably fouror five years into my career and
at that time I think I quicklyrealized I wasn't going to be in
insurance six months, I wasprobably going to be here for a
lot longer.
And so I was going back andforth on.
I knew I wanted to do moreeducation, whether it was an MBA
(24:53):
or something more industryspecific and what I landed on
was I'm learning a lot of thesame things I would getting an
MBA, but it's all tailored toinsurance, which is really what
I was looking for.
So I like to call it the CBCU,the Masters of Insurance, just
because I have one now.
So I get to say that.
But it was tough, I mean in fulltransparency.
(25:15):
My dad kind of pushed me to doit.
He was the Maryland chapterpresident of the CBCU for a long
time.
He taught a lot of the courses.
So I had a really good advocatein my corner that when I had
questions on stuff I could calland say, hey, what's this or
what's that?
But it's pretty intense.
I mean it's eight sections oreight, basically courses with a
test at the end, everything frominsurance operations to finance
(25:37):
to commercial property.
You really run the gambit ofinsurance and I just felt like
it would make me a morewell-rounded insurance
professional, regardless of whatindustry or what area of the
industry I wanted to go into.
The tests are not easy.
I think a lot of them havefairly high fail rates.
I was fortunate enough thatwhen you go through it and you
(25:58):
do it, and you go to a testingcenter to do all the tests and
there's a screen at the end thattells you whether you passed or
you failed, and there's like athree-second delay doesn't come
up, and so you sit there in justlike the most intense
anticipation of like, did I pass, Did I pass, Did I pass?
And I fortunately passed all ofthe tests the first time.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
You know they build that in just to tease you.
They could just produce theresults like that.
They just want you to sufferfor a few seconds.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Every other screen somehow pops up right away, but
that one it waits just longenough for you to be sweating.
But no, greg, I think it.
Just you know I had always onlybeen in work comp I for the
most part have only done workcomp and it really opened my
eyes to policy structure and thedifferent lines of business and
kind of how insurance companiesare run and what the finances
and the balance sheets look like, and it just it gave me a
(26:49):
better understanding so thatwhen I'm in conversations or I'm
talking to different groups ofpeople, I have a better
understanding of what they dowhen it comes to our industry.
And back to what Bob saidbefore, it helps you get a
broader picture of where whatyou do fits in with the entirety
of of of the product that we'reoffering and of what we're
doing.
So it's a long winded answer,but I just I knew I wanted to do
(27:11):
more education and I decidedthat going with something that
was industry specific worked forme, because I plan on
completing my entire career ininsurance.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
I think you definitely hit on some things.
You know I've taken three of thecourses and completed them
first time, but they're hard and, as you mentioned before, it's
very much the 5,000-foot viewover all of insurance, and so I
think that's probably thedifference, if we're talking
about a workcompcollegecomexperience versus the CPCU is
(27:42):
you might spend five and I mightbe giving too much credit here
but 5% focused on workers' compbecause there's a lot of
liability, there's a lot ofproperty, there's a lot of
financial, so it is riskmanagement ideas.
So, understanding how everythingconnects, I think you get a
really good picture through theCPCU from the 5,000-foot view of
(28:05):
all lines, but it is not thezeroed-in work comp only, so
there's value in both.
I think I actually did this ismy claim to fame I did some
video clips for the associate inclaims that they have, which is
probably the step I wouldencourage folks who haven't done
anything to start with ifthey're going to go down that
path, and some of those at leastone of the courses I believe
(28:27):
transfers over for your CPCU, soit's not a wasted effort if you
decide to go down that road.
Bob, have you had anyinteractions with the institutes
before?
Speaker 3 (28:36):
I really have not and it was interesting to listen to
Mike's description because herelates to my understanding of
what they do in the broadspectrum A good program, very
broad across multiple lines.
In a lot of ways I talk aboutthe RIMS event sometimes and
workers comp is always like theredheaded stepchild in RIMS.
(28:57):
You know it's five or 10% ofany contact that RIMS is
national is sometimes dedicatedto comp and that's kind of the
way the industry I think.
I think we have a feelingsometimes that we don't get the
full attention that we may wantfrom other avenues.
But insurance industry is hugeand it's understandable from the
lines of the business in theseother, in the other lines, the
(29:19):
volume of the other lines ofbusiness, why that may be the
case.
But yeah, he gave myunderstanding that you did.
Now it's not my place to askyou questions because you're the
host, but you know what can Isay?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I can ask myself questions, but this is like my
second time here, so I'm goingto ask you questions because
you're the host but what can Isay?
Speaker 3 (29:32):
This is like my second time here, so I'm going
to ask you a question, because Iknow you said earlier you do
teaching for CLM as well, theCLM College, claims College.
You want to tell people whatthat is, or can you add to the
story for that?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Absolutely so.
Clm stands for ClaimsLitigation Management.
It's a group of a lot ofattorneys.
There is a carrier involvementas well, and they do a
three-year designation, and sothis is actually an in-person
event where you go to I thinkright now it's in Baltimore for
about four days of in-class workin person, and then after year
(30:10):
one, you complete a test andthen you go back for year two
and the next year, take the nextround, and then year three is
your final year, and then thatone, instead of taking a test,
you do a group presentationwhere they actually give you a
case study of workers' comp, andso what's kind of nice about
that is you are getting thein-person piece.
(30:32):
The challenge with that isyou're going to have to work for
an employer that's going toallow for you to travel, and it
is at a hotel.
There's three or four days outof the office where you're fully
going to be engaged indifferent lectures from
different professionalsthroughout the industry who are
teaching.
So I think it has its ownbenefits and, of course, its own
(30:54):
challenges.
I believe you can do year oneonline now, and I don't know if
they're bringing that back inperson, but during the pandemic
they switched that one, so thatwould be a good way for people
to see if that's something thatthey like and it is directly
related to workers' comp, butthey also do designations for
other lines, so if you werelistening to this and you're a
(31:17):
property person.
They've got something going onthat same week for that.
The work comp group.
It's usually about 20 or sostudents, I would say each year
that go through the program, 20or 30.
And there's several hundredwhen you start looking at all
the different lines.
So so definitely interesting.
We've had several of our peoplego through it and I think you
(31:37):
get a good flavor of workerscomp.
Again, it has to be somewhatgeneric because you've got
people coming from all over thecountry so you can't talk about
Virginia workers comp you knowthis high level best practices,
(31:58):
national focus overview.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
One of the things we're developing, that will be
launching this summer, are 50different state specific modules
being produced with statepartners that will cover legal
claims, ethics, the specifics ofdoing business in each given
state.
You need that.
I mean you can you do come outof this training and and you
still need to know what's thefiling requirement, what's the
waiting period, what's you knowwhat?
What's the fine If I don't getthis form checked off in the
(32:21):
proper amount of time, all thosenuances.
It's difficult because comp, aswe like to say, is exactly the
same yet totally different inevery state.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right and you could bethinking you're doing it right
and if you don't know thejurisdiction you're in, you
could be doing it completelywrong and find yourself in some
trouble if you don't know thejurisdiction you're in, you
could be doing it completelywrong and find yourself in some
trouble.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Is CLM CCP designation?
Is that the one dedicated tocomp?
Is that the designation.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Yes, yes, and we've had a few of our folks go
through it and I think thatthird year, when you do your own
presentation, they give them apretty difficult workers'
compensation claim and then havethem present as a group what
they would do in retrospectbecause it's kind of at the end
point and kind of see wheremaybe some of the challenges how
did it get to that spot andwhat were things that could be
(33:07):
done to either get it back onthe rails or could have been
done earlier to keep it fromgoing down that?
Speaker 3 (33:13):
path.
Yeah, I know somebody who wentthrough that and was very
complimentary of that particularportion of the program, thought
it was very useful to have thatteam effort and collaboration,
which is pretty valuable.
I think you can learn a lotjust in that process, absolutely
.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Absolutely of the themes is that it sounds like
we're all folks that want tolearn, right, like I just want
to know more.
And if I don't know the answerto something, it's instead of
asking someone I want to gofigure out why, or but I think
it's.
I had this conversationyesterday, funny enough, with I
was sitting with a group ofagents having lunch and I was
(33:49):
talking to a woman who was ateacher for like 13 years and
for one reason or another, sheneeded to get into a different
industry and so she kind of cameinto insurance not knowing
anything, and she came in withone role and then a couple of
folks moved on fairly quicklyand so they had different things
they were doing and she saidwell, I'll learn that, I want to
learn that, I'll learn that Ican do that.
(34:10):
Let me see if I can figure thatout.
And what quickly dawned on meis continuing education isn't
just signing up for a course orgoing to a conference.
It's as simple as saying, OK, Iwant to know where my data
comes from, so let me get moreversed in how we do our data.
Or I want to learn whatunderwriting is doing, so let me
go sit with somebody for alittle bit and really understand
(34:30):
what they do.
And I think what people need tounderstand coming out of
college is it's great to haveyour job and do your job and be
really good at your job, but ifthat's all you're interested in
doing, it's not going to takeyou the farthest right.
So the people that are curious,the people that say, hey, I
want to learn this, or hey, Iwant to do this project, or hey,
I want to push myself outsidemy comfort zone and do this,
(34:50):
those people become invaluableto an organization, and so I
think that's overlooked.
For continuing education, allthese resources are awesome and
they're something that should beutilized, but it can be as
simple as saying I just want tolearn how to do this at your
current job, and that'ssomething that I think I don't
know, if you guys agree, butthat gets overlooked.
I do my job and my job is myjob and that's it.
(35:13):
But the people that I find mostsuccessful are those that get
outside of the comfort zone andsay, hey, I want to do this
project, or I want to learn this, or I want to go do that.
I mean, look at me, I switchedfrom claims to sales and
distribution two years ago andcompletely changed the
trajectory of my career becauseI wanted to try something
different and wanted tounderstand the totality of our
industry and what we do from adifferent perspective.
So you know, that's just not aquestion, just kind of a thought
(35:37):
on that from you guys.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
I think you're absolutely right.
I think there's a difference.
And there's the type ofemployee that wants to.
You know, there's a type ofemployee who's counting the days
to retirement Okay.
And then there's the type ofemployee who continually wants
to find a better way to dosomething, expand their horizons
, maybe want to step intoanother area for different
(36:00):
challenges.
They like the challenges.
And those are the people thatare generally looking for the
education to improve themselvesand to take on those challenges.
Those are the more successfulpeople.
I mean, I think in our mindthere are stereotypes of the
jaded professional that's justbeen sitting at a desk for 20
years and just can't wait untilthe day they're done.
And then there are those whojust can't wait for the next
(36:21):
step and the next challenge andsomething they haven't dealt
with before.
And you said something thatreally struck me, because in my
previous life, previous company,we dealt with a lot of very,
very large insurance carriersand wonderful people, really
great people in this industry.
I love this industry, butDilbert is alive and well in
corporate America.
Okay, when you startnegotiating with some of these
(36:43):
companies, you realize howlittle, how heavily siloed some
companies are.
So you mentioned somethingabout underwriting.
There are people in claims whohave absolutely no clue what
goes on in underwriting andbusiness development and vice
versa, and I've actuallylistened to calls where people
have to negotiate amongstdepartments in their own company
to get something done whenthey're trying to bring in an
(37:06):
external service.
And people who routinely reachout to understand what's going
on in those other areas andwhat's happening in the bigger
picture have much moreflexibility and much more
ability to advance, and I thinkthat's important.
But I don't even think they doit because they want to advance.
They want to do it because it'sjust a chance to do something
different and a differentchallenge.
(37:27):
I really do think that mattersto a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yeah, and I think you hit on something there that the
goal of a company is to hirevery talented people that are
well-rounded.
And if you are only in one area, and that's all you know, and
that's all you learn it's veryhard to become well-rounded and
I know Key Risk and same forBerkeley Industrial.
We want people to learn whateverybody else does and we want
people to collaborate and talkand everything else, and all
(37:51):
that does is benefit theemployer.
It makes your employees morewell-rounded.
It makes them more talented.
I've always said I want to hirethe most talented people.
I can teach you the technical,but if you have the want to
learn and the want to absorbinformation and the want to be
curious and learn more about howwhat you do impacts the bigger
picture, those by far are themost successful people.
(38:12):
I can teach you the rates inVirginia and the statutory rules
in Maryland.
That's stuff that can be taught.
But people that want to learnand I agree with you, bob those
people are generally also thepeople that are going to reach
out to you and come to work oncollege.
They're the people that aregoing to get their CBCU.
They're the people that aregoing to do the CLM, and I think
it's no secret that those folksgenerally are the ones that
(38:33):
just want to know more and bemore well-rounded that.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Just want to know more and be more well-rounded.
Greg, what are your thoughts?
I agree, and I think everycompany allocates different
resources to training.
So one of the things I thoughtmaybe just to talk a step
further is it may be thatsomebody who's listening to this
podcast and where they'reworking unfortunately doesn't
invest in training, but theywant to know more, and so what
does that person do?
(38:57):
And I was thinking about someof the ways in my own career
where I've learned.
Some companies may even bestate funds or situations where
the budgets are very limited andtrying to go to a conference
would need to be approved twoyears in advance or three years
in advance because of how tightthings are run.
(39:17):
So in those scenarios, what aresome other ways that people can
learn, Bob or Michael, I'llthrow that to either of you.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Well, I think there's an explosion in our industry of
podcasts and webinars such asthis, where people can go and
learn about specific topics.
Some are extremely technical,you know, and in nature those
are great resources.
They don't require travel, youknow there are good.
As you said, they have troublegetting to conferences.
(39:45):
I think you know it'sinteresting after the pandemic,
some conferences attempted ahybrid of in-person and you know
you could attend remotely anddiscovered immediately that all
companies said, oh, there's aremote option, you're not
traveling, you know, and soyou'll notice now those
conferences aren't remoteanymore, they're not offering
hybrid.
But there are some greatconferences, some great
(40:06):
educational events, I think forpeople looking for information.
Those are some of the areas.
I mean WCRI.
I was just at WCRI in Phoenix,which is a really interesting if
you're a data head, especiallythey really interesting stuff
that they come out, that theyreport on every year.
Wci in Orlando is a bigconference with lots and lots of
educational information andit's not an expensive conference
(40:29):
.
I mean they have it in Orlandoin August and no one wants to be
in Orlando in August, so it's alittle cheaper from hotel
perspectives and the conferenceitself is a few hundred bucks.
It's not a lot of money.
So those are some of the Ithink some of the resources
people can look at.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah, I was.
I was at actually WCI this lastyear as a speaker and at that
conference they even had a livework comp hearing a Florida work
comp hearing that you could goto and sit in.
You had to go through likesecurity and everything but you
could go and see what a hearinglooks like.
They do a live hearing.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
They did a live surgery.
They do live surgery.
Every year they do a livesurgery.
I guess you know your numbergets drawn when you check in at
the register.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Guess what.
Who gets that?
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, right, but I mean, I mean, what a great
opportunity to learn.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
I'm not.
I'm not doing it.
My a couple of my coworkersactually went to the live
surgery and they were psyched.
That is a hard task for me.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
I'm good, I am the type of guy that just doesn't
want to think about the conceptof blood flowing through my
veins.
I just don't want to skip.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
You and I are the same person, bob, I'm the same
way.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
I've been doing WCI for years.
I've never gone to the livesurgery and I don't think I ever
will.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Well, and you mentioned WCRI and they do some
fantastic.
I mean, if you want research,heavy research within very
specific states, they'refantastic.
I have read quite a few oftheir articles and they actually
provide some of the best statespecific guides that you can get
(41:57):
each year if you just need thebasics or if you want to go deep
Well, greg, I'm going to quoteyour boss, who used to be at Key
Risk.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Google is your friend .
I don't know how many timesI've heard Mike Martin say that,
but it's 100% true.
And so, look, I'll go back towhat I said earlier and I think
you guys make great points, butit costs you nothing to ask a
question.
It costs you nothing to networkand get to know good people
Right now could walk into ScottHolbrook's office tomorrow and
say, hey, man, talk to me abouthow you got where you are.
(42:41):
Or hey, I want to know morespecifically about our CFO calls
and how we work with Berkeleyas a whole.
And it costs you nothing to askquestions and be inquisitive
and reach out to folks andreally network within your own
company or just in the industryin general.
That that's something that getsoverlooked.
It's great to go to aconference, but one of the
biggest things I get out of aconference is the networking and
(43:03):
getting to know folks that dothings differently than I do and
aligning myself with thosepeople to figure out what they
do.
That is a big thing to me andthat costs me nothing.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
I will tell you and I agree with that completely, but
along those lines and tyinginto conferences, we work real
heavily with the SouthernAssociation of Workers
Compensation Administrators,saca.
About 20 states belong to SACA.
That is an outstanding groupfor casual conversations about
how to address issues andchallenges in comp and how
people process things.
(43:36):
And you're talking toregulators from the various
states.
They're very open, they're veryapproachable.
I've always enjoyed thosemeetings and a lot of our.
I've gotten great ideas, infact, when we're building
WorkComp College, they were verysupportive of what we were
doing and we got great feedbackfrom state regulators on what
needed to be done.
So it's helpful.
(43:57):
Talking to people is and you'reright, you could do it in a
lunchroom.
When you go to a conference,it's important to go to the
sessions, but you should also goto the networking events and
talk to people, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Absolutely Well.
The last thing I wanted to hiton, as we kind of wrap up this
topic, is just how I feel likelearning.
If you want to improve yourself, a lot of that has to be
self-driven.
Of course, your company canoffer you resources and of
course you can wait for thingsto happen, but one of the things
I've learned throughout mycareer is just that when I
(44:30):
recognize an area that I coulddo better in, like Mike said, go
look for the answers to thatand take a self-driven approach.
We're going to have an episodecoming up in the next month or
two.
That's on listening, and I had a360 review 10 years ago and in
that 360 review I got somefeedback that I could prove on
(44:51):
listening and I thought, well,boy, I thought I was pretty good
at this.
And I asked my wife.
She was like, yeah, you'regreat.
But then when I startedrealizing that other people,
some of the people that I wasworking with because I was so
busy and I was moving so fast, Isometimes didn't take the time
to pause and listen and reallyhear them I went and I got a
book on listening, hated it,threw it away, got another book
(45:13):
on listening, loved it andstarted doing some exercises.
So you might go down that pathand what you're pursuing doesn't
work for you.
But then, further down the road, you find that answer if you
keep looking, and so we're goingto hear from the author of that
book in the next month or two,and that should be a fun
discussion as well.
But any other favorite books oravenues that you guys have
(45:34):
taken to learn?
Speaker 3 (45:35):
Well, from a book perspective, there are a couple
that popped to mind that Ireally enjoyed.
There's a book that's been outnow a number of years, From Good
to Great, which is a review ofcertain case studies, business
studies of companies and whatthey've done to make the
difference between just astandard good procedure to
becoming a great organization,and I thought there were some
interesting thoughts in thatbook.
There's another book that Ihaven't seen out in print in
(45:57):
years.
I read it back in the 80s,called Dinosaur Brains.
Couldn't even tell you whowrote it, but it talked about
the instinctual reaction in somepeople fight fright or flight
and how certain people act asdinosaur brains to build little
fiefdoms and empires in thecorporate structure and try and
(46:18):
maintain control throughirrational methods.
Unfortunately, they say thedinosaur brains at that time
could most often be found inaccounting and human resources.
I apologize to anybody who'slistening who's in accounting or
human resources, but it talkedabout the instinctual reactions
that some people have and how todeal with it.
They build little walls aroundthem.
They don't have direct controlover a lot of things, but they
(46:41):
try and control as much as theycan, and I found it to be a
really insightful book and tothis day, I will sometimes come
across some people and I'll beable to flag them and I think of
dinosaur brains from theirreaction or the way they behave.
It was really a great book ifyou can find an old copy I don't
even know if it's still inprint.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
All right, you're going to make me look.
That's definitely interesting,mike.
How about you?
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Yeah, One book that comes to mind, and Greg.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
I don't know if you guys read it at BIM.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
We honestly, as a leadership group, read it at Key
.
Rest was Extreme Ownership,that's very good, very good and
it's written by John Willink,and it's him and another guy
that are Navy SEALs or were NavySEALs or still are Navy SEALs,
and it's all about, as leaders,kind of owning everything in
your world.
Right, so you own the decisionsthat are made both at your
level and your folks level, butjust owning the results and
(47:29):
owning kind of the directionthat you're taking your team and
it's but it's good for anylevel, right, it's not just
about leadership from a managingpeople perspective, it's just a
different way to look at yourdesk and your life.
And you know you own yourresults and you own the work
that's being put out.
And it taught me one of myworst.
One of the phrases I do dislikethe most is well, I didn't have
(47:52):
the file then, or well, Ididn't, I wasn't involved then,
so I can't blah, blah, blah.
We all own the results right.
We're all one company, we're allone place and we should all
have ownership of, and pride of,the work that we do and what
we're doing.
So that was a pretty influentialbook.
And then, honestly, I'm justinvolved in a lot of online
newsletters and updates indifferent industries and niches.
(48:14):
So, like PEOs or staffing, theyhave organizations that what
they do is they send out dailyupdates on legislation, on
different things that are goingin the industry, how capital and
the rates and interest rateincreases are affecting the
different companies and what'sgoing on there, and I'm heavily
involved in those.
So if you're involved in nichesor you have a lot of a certain
(48:35):
type of business on your desk,go learn about that industry and
there's I will guarantee youthat there are plenty of
newsletters and organizationsthat are that's all they do is
that industry, and it's a reallygood way to kind of just stay
current on what's going on inthe environment and what's going
on that can affect what you'redoing.
So those are two avenues that Iyou know, that helped me affect
(48:58):
what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
So those are two avenues that I you know that
helped me.
I think those are great.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
I've read Extreme Ownership, very, very good book
and a good reminder and I loveit.
He also has a podcast and it'slike it's a little like over the
top intent, but some of thepoints he makes are fantastic.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
Well, and in his industry too, lives are at stake
actual lives so when mistakesare made, there are people whose
lives depend on it.
So it was very good, sodefinitely good recommendations.
Well, I wanted to wrap thingsup this year.
The thing that we're doing thisseason is asking each of our
guests to share somethingthey're grateful for.
I felt like one of the thingsthat I've been on a mission for
(49:38):
the next or for the last severalyears, just to put good vibes
in the universe.
The universe needs it.
So I wanted to throw this oneto Bob and ask you something
that you're grateful for.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
Oh well, obviously I'm grateful for the opportunity
to be on your blog, greg, oryour podcast.
That's what I'm grateful for.
I am actually grateful that forthe last 20-some years my
experience in this industry,that I've had the opportunity to
meet some tremendous people andjust thoroughly enjoy
everything that I've been ableto do.
(50:09):
When you look forward to goingto the office in the morning or
to get up and going to workevery single day, with very rare
exception, that's a realblessing and I've been really
blessed with that.
And even though my job haschanged in the last year, I've
had that opportunity to reallyexpand our horizon and try
something new and create again,and I'm just really, really
(50:30):
grateful for that opportunity.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
Oh, I really love that, Bob.
I know it's really about peoplein the end.
The industry is what we do inour jobs, and I think that's one
of the things, as I reflect onthe time that I've spent in
workers comp, that I'm gratefulfor as well.
So thanks for sharing that.
Thanks again, mike, for joiningme on this episode.
We remind all of our listenersto do right, think differently
(50:56):
and don't forget to care andhope that you join us in two
weeks for our next episode.
Thanks, everybody, you.
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Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com