June 23, 2025 • 48 mins
The art of listening might be the most undervalued skill in our professional toolkit. In this enlightening conversation with executive coach Tim Hast, author of "Powerful Listening, Powerful Influence," we explore why truly hearing others is so challenging yet so essential.
Tim shares his journey from trauma counselor to executive coach, discovering that regardless of industry or position, many leaders receive feedback that they simply don't listen well enough. As host Greg Hamlin reveals his own surprising 360-review feedback about his listening skills, we learn that perceiving ourselves as good listeners and actually making others feel heard are entirely different matters.
Why do we struggle to listen effectively? Tim introduces us to the concept of HALT (Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired) – conditions that severely impair our ability to focus on others. Even more fundamentally, our natural tendency to make everything about ourselves creates a significant barrier. From childhood, we're conditioned to believe the world revolves around us, making genuine listening a conscious choice rather than our default setting.
The heart of the episode revolves around Tim's transformative "R-listening" approach – Active, Reflective, Empathic listening – and his four practical steps anyone can implement immediately: listen patiently, with your body, with your voice, and with your mind. These techniques have the power to revolutionize both professional relationships and personal connections alike.
For workers' compensation professionals dealing daily with individuals experiencing trauma, pain, and frustration, these listening skills aren't just nice-to-have – they're essential for building trust, resolving complex cases, and truly serving claimants. The parallels between effective claims handling and powerful listening are unmistakable.
Whether you're managing a department, working directly with injured workers, or simply trying to improve your relationships, this episode offers practical wisdom that can be implemented today. As Tim reminds us, when we truly listen, we give others the gift of feeling understood – perhaps the most powerful influence we can have.
Season 9 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin and guest co-host Matt Yehling, Directory of Claims at Midwest Employers Casualty.
Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
Got questions? Send them to marketing@berkleyindustrial.com
For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at camrunyan9@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg Hamlin (00:13):
Hello everybody and welcome to Adjusted.
I'm your host, greg Hamlin,coming at you from beautiful
Birmingham, Alabama and BerkeleyIndustrial Comp, and I'm
excited to share with you thisrebroadcast.
This particular episode is oneof those fun ones where I
actually had a chance tointerview somebody that impacted
(00:35):
my life.
You don't always get thatchance or we definitely don't
but I had read a book a numberof years ago on listening and
the power of listening and I wasso impressed with it that I've
incorporated quite a bit of itinto our departmental trainings
and what I do personally in mywork life and in my home life,
and it's made a positive impact.
(00:56):
So to have the opportunity tohave Tim Host join our episode
and share the power of listeningwith our audience was
particularly pertinent to me.
I think there's a lot ofexcellent content here and I do
think it's one of the thingsthat we could do a lot better as
an industry in putting emphasison listening, especially in a
(01:19):
very complicated insurancesector.
So with that, I remind you tolike, follow and share our
episodes.
We want more people to findtheir way to the podcast and
also encourage you to leave afive-star review on your
favorite platform so that we'llbe able to help others find
(01:41):
their way to this episode, andwith that, I'll remind you to do
right, think differently anddon't forget to care.
Enjoy.
Hello everybody and welcome toAdjusted.
I'm your host, greg Hamlin,coming at you from beautiful
Birmingham, alabama, wherespring has arrived and the
sunshine is out, and with me ismy co-host for the day, matt
(02:05):
Yelling.
Matt, do you want to introduceyourself and say hello to
everybody?
Matt Yehling (02:08):
Hello everyone, this is Matthew Yelling, joining
you from St Louis, Missouri,along the banks of the mighty
Mississippi.
Welcome.
Greg Hamlin (02:16):
Always glad to have you back, Matt.
Matt Yehling (02:17):
Thank you.
Greg Hamlin (02:18):
I am super excited about our guest today.
With us today is Tim Haast, andhe is an executive coach and
author of a book called PowerfulListening, powerful Influence,
and I first ran into his book anumber of years ago and had
always wanted to do an episodewith him and I thought, well, if
I could figure out how to gethold of him, maybe he'd say yes.
(02:40):
And so here he is.
So, tim, if you could say helloto everybody and maybe
introduce yourself a littlebetter than I did, Well, thank
you, greg.
Tim Hast (02:47):
I'm Tim Hest and I am, as they say, I'm glad to be
here.
At my age, I'm glad to beanywhere.
But welcome to you guys to myneck of the woods, since I'm
seeing you from Oklahoma today.
That's where we're at it'srainy and turning spring and
I've got tomatoes planted andI'm looking forward to about the
middle of July when thetomatoes are nice and ripe.
So that's where I am today.
Greg Hamlin (03:09):
You're making me feel guilty.
I haven't gotten to my gardenyet.
It's still got a bunch of grassin it that I need to turn over,
so I need to get on that thisweekend.
Well, tim, I wanted to start alittle bit by just understanding
how you got into the coachingindustry.
I know, obviously I've readyour book, so I'm just curious
what brought you down the pathof one deciding to write a book
(03:29):
on listening and then maybe howdid you end up in the industry
you're in?
I'm sure when you were a kidyou thought to yourself this is
what I'm going to do.
Tim Hast (03:38):
When I grow up I want to be a consultant.
Well, I started out, greg.
I started out as a counselor,no-transcript and so I started
(04:14):
working with first respondersand just realized that I really
loved helping them.
But there's a problem whenyou're working with trauma.
I noticed that, as satisfyingas it can be to work with people
that are hurting, I found thatmy own bucket was getting a
little too full of trauma.
You hear stories over and overand we call it secondary trauma
when you're listening topeople's stories.
(04:36):
So that began to kind of createa change in me and during that
time I noticed about a third ofmy clients were really depressed
and about a third of my clientswere trauma victims.
But about a third of my clientswere people that just didn't
know what they wanted to be whenthey grew up and they would be
asking me you know, help me kindof figure out my direction.
(04:56):
And you know I discovered thatI really loved.
I loved working with all threeof my different sets of clients,
but those clients that I washelping them with their career.
I just found that I reallyloved.
I loved working with all threeof my different sets of clients,
but those clients that I washelping them with their career.
I just found that I had areally propensity for that and
it was a way to not focus quiteso much on trauma.
So I'm focused on these peoplethat are wanting to be better in
(05:18):
their career, and I discoveredthey have a name for that.
Imagine this they call it lifecoaching and I thought, well,
that's pretty smart, that'spretty cool.
So I begin to make thetransition from psychologist or
psychotherapist to executivecoach.
I actually keep my counselinglicense say that fast, 23 times.
(05:38):
I try to keep my licensecurrent and up to date.
But mainly I coach and I train,and I started enjoying
successes as a coach.
The more I coach, the morepeople would say well, come talk
to our group, you helped me, sohelp our group.
So I remember the first time Igot up and stood in front of a
bunch of people and got to talkand I realized this is really
(06:01):
fun.
I'm one of those really sickpeople that, instead of being
afraid of getting up in front ofpeople and talking, I love it.
So that's kind of what has ledme to where I am right now.
I do executive coaching and Ido training and I go in and
analyze systems I don't meanoperational systems, but people
(06:21):
systems and really my vision isI go to the workplace and help
people get along and share theirtoys.
So that's where I am and that'swhat got me here.
Greg Hamlin (06:32):
That's awesome.
Well, I mentioned this as wewere starting up, tim that about
.
I think it's probably beenseven or eight years ago.
I did a 360 review and forthose who don't know what those
are, it's really a window intohow others perceive you.
So you have your boss evaluatesyou, your peers and your direct
(06:53):
reports, and so I managed avery large department at the
time of about 60 people.
So that was a lot of feedbackto receive and it was scrubbed
down.
And I had done this yearsbefore and got quite a bit of
positive feedback, but probablynot as much constructive
feedback as I could have hopedfor.
And one of the things thatreally stood out as I went
through that was one of thecomments was that several
(07:16):
different people didn't feellike they were heard, and that
was really surprising to mebecause I always felt like I was
a really good communicator andthe person leading the 360
probably could have done somethings different.
But she's like well, what wouldyour wife say if you talked to
her about it?
Tim Hast (07:30):
And I was like I don't know.
I'll ask her.
She's never said.
I'm not a good listener and Iasked her and she goes.
Greg Hamlin (07:36):
She actually was like, well, I think you do a
good job.
And I was thinking, well, Imust be missing something
because people are perceiving methis way, or some people are.
And so I bought a book onlistening hated it felt.
Whoever the author was, I don'tremember what the book was, but
it felt very condescending, soI just couldn't connect.
And then I picked your book upand read it and I started doing
(07:57):
some of those exercises, some ofthe things we'll talk about
today, and it was like a switchwent on and I've really felt
like it's impacted myrelationships with my kids, my
family, my work.
So I felt like there was a lotto talk about and really would
say like I've got a whole pileof books here, but of all the
books I've read, that was one ofthe most meaningful.
(08:18):
So I'm really excited aboutthis topic of listening For you,
tim.
why do you feel like listeningis important?
Tim Hast (08:25):
I'm going to answer that I'm going to go around the
block the long way around theblock to answer that.
The answer that I come up withis really tied to my experience
working with couples and alsoworking with people that were
responding to the bombing.
In both of those situationspeople are hurting and in that
moment life really doesn't makea whole lot of sense.
We learn from the bombing andalso working in other disasters
(08:48):
that the most powerful tool forhelping people move beyond
trauma is to have another humanbeing take the time to really
listen listen without givingadvice and in doing that, as a
therapist, we're trained tolisten.
But I begin to realize if I canteach my clients to listen to
each other, they wouldn't needme so much If I could teach them
(09:11):
to really hear each other.
In that moment, when someonesays something to you and the
last thing you want to do islisten, the first thing you want
to do is smack them upside thehead and say stop doing that.
But if I could catch myself andremind myself they're hurting
and they need to be heard.
Hurting and heard if I remindmyself that suddenly listening
(09:32):
takes on a whole new dimension.
So the why or the rationalebehind the importance of
listening is that it should bethe number one tool in your
toolkit.
When I begin to make thattransition into coaching people
in leadership, people would cometo me, like Greg who had just
taken a 360.
And often the 360 would say hedoesn't listen, she doesn't
(09:55):
listen, and so the team would bereally ticked off with their
boss because they would say youknow, I tell my boss things and
he really does.
I'm not just using guys becauseit is not gender specific, but
the complaint was I'm having aproblem with my team and after
they would take a 360, theywould realize the problem really
was that the person at the topwas not listening.
(10:18):
And I realized then and therethat if I'm going to help people
be better, the first tool intheir toolkit has got to be the
tool of listening moreeffectively.
Matt Yehling (10:29):
So it's kind of like when I take my dog to
training, I find out that I'mnot really training the dog I'm
training the teacher right.
Tim Hast (10:36):
Yes, that is so true.
Matt Yehling (10:40):
In your book you actually outline four reasons
why people tend to be poorlisteners.
Maybe, as we launch thispodcast, you could walk through
those four reasons.
Tim Hast (10:55):
Well, one of the reasons why people are poor
listeners is, first of all andwe're going to come back to this
later, I'm sure is we make itall about us.
The world revolves around us,and if the world revolves around
me, why in the world would Iwant to listen to you, matthew?
So that's one reason.
Another reason is when we'rephysically tired, when it's the
end of the day and I'm worn outeven though I wrote a book on
(11:18):
listening, I'm just as human asanybody else and I have to
remind myself to abide by my ownrules.
So reminding myself hey, youknow, you might not be a good
listener right now or when I'vegot a lot of stuff going on,
when I'm in the office and twoor three things are happening at
once, or when I'm thinking thatI know what the person, where
(11:39):
they're going, what they'resaying and where they're going.
With that, that line of thoughtand I go in one direction and
they go in another direction.
I'm adding two more reasons,and we will probably come back
to this and talk about this more.
There's a word, and the word isHALT, and the HALT stands for
when I'm hungry, when I'm angry,when I'm lonely and when I'm
(11:59):
tired.
When one of those fourconditions exist, it makes it
really hard to listen.
When all I can think about ishaving a big mac, then my
ability to listen is severelyimpaired.
If I am ticked off, if I'vebeen driving down the interstate
and someone pulls in front ofme and throws in the brakes and
I'm I'm in a state of anger,then I'm not going to be a very
(12:20):
good listener.
If I feel disconnected orlonely and I don't mean lonely
like, oh, I want to be married,I mean lonely like I haven't
been around the people thatbring me joy, that encourage me
Then I have a propensity to notreally want to focus on people.
Or when I'm simply tired I can'ttell you how many times, as a
therapist, couples would come inand say, oh, we had this
(12:41):
terrible fight the other nightand and it was terrible, and we
said all kinds of awful thingsto each other.
And they said and then we wentto bed and the next day we got
up and we thought what were wearguing about last night?
And I would look at them andsay you were simply tired, you
were suffering from HALT, hungry, angry, lonely or tired.
So there are many externalvariants that keep us from
(13:04):
listening.
But I think the biggest one andwe're going to come back to
this is that we tend to make theworld all about us.
In just a little bit, I'm goingto give you four things that
will help you be a betterlistener, and we'll revisit
those things.
Greg Hamlin (13:19):
I think that's really powerful.
Some of the things you'rementioning there.
I think probably that onecomment you just said is the
hardest to come to terms with,that we actually are thinking
about ourselves a lot and that'sa hard thing to hear because
you think, well, I care aboutall these people.
But one of the things I'velearned through my own
experience and through some ofthe exercises was just that
(13:41):
hearing somebody and having themfeel heard are different things
.
So I might feel I took in theinformation.
But if you don't feel that Itook in the information because
you don't feel heard, it doesn'tmatter.
And I can remember I've got sixkids, so I'm in the teenager
(14:01):
zone.
Yeah, I've got 18 year old 18out of one right.
And when my 18 year old, whenshe was about 16, 17, so not
that long ago we were having adiscussion about kind of where
she wanted to go with her lifeand I was just really trying to
use my listening skills and notmy dad lecture skills and as she
was talking I said so what I'mhearing you say is I feel you
(14:24):
feel really frustrated that whatI want for you and what you
want for yourself are differentthings.
And she goes yes, and when shesaid that, I was like you know
what she feels hurt.
That's the indicator right there.
Yeah, and I can't tell you howmany times I've had since.
I've practiced it.
Tim Hast (14:42):
I'm not perfect at it, but when you get that response,
whether it's that visceralresponse when they go yes, when
you hear the sigh in their voice, you know you connected, you
know you hit a home run.
Greg Hamlin (14:55):
Right, and it's so easy to be thinking about what
you want to say next instead ofjust taking the time to slow
down and make sure youunderstand them and that they
feel understood.
And I think that's the biggestthing I've had to keep working
on is I'm so busy.
I've got six kids, I've gotthis job.
I'm going a thousand miles aminute.
Tim Hast (15:14):
Slowing down is hard.
I'm still stuck on you havingsix kids.
It's a crazy world we live in.
One to 18, that's amazing.
It's a crazy world we live in.
Greg Hamlin (15:25):
That's amazing, that's a crazy world we live in,
but talk to us a little bitmore about the difference
between hearing and listening.
I talked a little bit about myexperiences, but maybe some of
the things you've seen.
Tim Hast (15:39):
Sure Well, hearing is the psychological process of
attending to the sound in one'senvironment.
I hear frogs, I hear birds, Ihear the wind blow, listening
and some people might say, well,you're making a distinction.
That's really not there.
But for me, listening isfocused.
It's concentrated.
It's an approach tounderstanding the meaning of the
message that the person issending.
We think in pictures, not words.
I'm taking the picture in myhead and I'm converting it to
(16:02):
words so that I can beam itacross space into your head,
where you convert it back topictures.
And until the picture that isin my head is in your head, the
transaction has not taken place.
So, as a listener, I'm tryingto do my best to hear what is
that that person is picturing intheir head and recreate that
picture in my head.
Matt Yehling (16:23):
Right, and I'm going to shift gears on you a
little bit.
I know so.
In the work comp industry, youknow we deal with trauma every
day too, and you know I thinkyou know why we brought you on
and why we wanted to talk to you.
you know about this is like forthe industry and for to improve
our own careers and the careersof our staff right it's.
You know we have to all bebetter listeners and before we
(16:43):
started I talked to you a littlebit about you know that we're
going through a big innovationpush and innovation's important
and you know I applauded youbecause you know reflective
listening was one of the keyphrases in your book that I
picked up on and we are taughthow to speak clearly and we're
not gonna hear the ums and ahsthat I'm saying in this
conversation because Jacob'sgoing to edit all that out.
But you know we take speechclasses.
(17:04):
We take those in high school,we take them in college, but
there's no listening classes.
So why do you think there'smore focus on the skill of
speaking and no emphasis onlistening?
Tim Hast (17:15):
Well, I think it's real simple.
It's a lot sexier to get up infront of people and talk and
make it all about me than it isto be quiet and focus on the
other person.
I really think that we can seethe line between the action and
the results, the line ofconnection between I'm going to
get up, stand up in front ofpeople and communicate and
(17:37):
success.
We can see that direct line.
It's a lot easier to see thatline, but when we take the time
to listen, the dividends are notquite so apparent in the moment
.
Sometimes they are, when youspeak to your daughter and when
your daughter's speaking to youand you finally hear her and she
goes yeah, that is that directconnection between what I'm
(17:59):
doing and the dividend, thepayoff from that.
But often we don't see thatpayoff and I just think that it
sounds a lot more exciting totalk about being a better
communicator when the truth isand I'm going to preach here but
the truth is, if I learn how tolisten to Matthew, if I learn
how to truly hear you, then Ihave a wonderful roadmap that
(18:20):
teaches me how to communicatemore effectively.
Because if I know what it takesto make you feel heard.
Then I have the roadmap toeffective communication as well.
That's wonderful.
Matt Yehling (18:32):
Yeah, in your book you also reference that.
You know, even as apsychologist you took one
semester of listening right andthen even in that class you
mentioned that.
You know the focus was on howto respond to people.
Tim Hast (18:44):
It wasn't even like listening to them.
Matt Yehling (18:46):
So has that changed?
Or you know, like, how is thatpossible?
Tim Hast (18:51):
You know it seems almost common sense, but you
know you're the expert on this,you know so Well, I'm not the
expert on why people do whatthey do that there's still a big
mystery to me as well but Isimply think that it's just not
as glamorous to talk about.
I'm going to sit down and bequiet and listen to people, as
(19:13):
opposed to I'm going to get upin front of people and
communicate and influence theminds of millions.
I know that that's areductionist approach.
I think that's kind of big,using really bold lines to
describe something that it's alot more nuanced than that.
But I think the bottom line isthat we put a lot more emphasis
(19:33):
on what comes out of our mouthand what goes in our ears.
Ooh, somebody write that down.
That was good.
I don't know where that camefrom.
Greg Hamlin (19:42):
I agree and I you know.
I think one of the things thatI've learned is that to be a
good communicator, if you wantto make real, meaningful change,
you need trust, and trust onlycomes from showing respect and
understanding, so, whetherthat's in your family or on your
team or whoever you're workingwith, it's a really important
(20:03):
key.
When I started doing my ownself-reflection, I realized one
of my blockers was I'm so busyand I have so many things on my
list that I want to go 100 milesan hour, and I've had to learn
to slow myself down.
When people come in my office,I turn my phone upside down.
Matt Yehling (20:21):
I lock my computer down.
When people come on my office,I turn my phone upside down.
Greg Hamlin (20:24):
I lock my computer.
I slide away from my monitorsso that they could see I am
fully present for you right now.
Tim Hast (20:29):
And.
Greg Hamlin (20:29):
I'm not even going to let those other things
distract me, even though I knowhow busy I am.
So that was one of the things Iworked on, but I know there are
other things that create thatmake us bad listeners.
Tim, what are some of the otherthings out there that you feel
like are blockers that cause usto be bad listeners?
Tim Hast (20:47):
Well, I want to mention something.
One of the things I do is I dopersonality assessments and I do
team assessments so thateverybody on the team
understands each other andpeople that are very extroverted
and very fast-paced.
That's one personality style.
All the personality styles aregood.
There's not a bad one.
But because of that nature ofbeing really, really
(21:08):
forward-thinking and getting thejob done, they're like Larry
the Cable Guy.
You know, get her done.
And it's like let's get thisdone.
And that becomes the enemy oflistening, because listening
requires that I, for a moment,or for a few moments or for a
few minutes, I disable that needto move on to the next thing
and simply be present in themoment.
(21:29):
That's wonderful.
So when I revise the book, I'mgoing to go a lot more into
situational that what yourpersonality style is.
There are some things about theway you listen and the way you
want to be heard that reallyimpact these different styles as
well, but that's for anotherbook.
Greg Hamlin (21:45):
Well, we've as a company I know we've done
exercises in both disc andstrength finders.
Both of those have been reallyeye-opening, just to kind of see
where your blind spots are andwhere your superpowers are and
really get an idea of.
Well, okay, this is where wemeet my president, who's now
about to retire.
He on the disc is opposite ofme and one of the things I
(22:07):
learned through that is that helikes to have all the
information, have time toprocess it before he makes a
decision.
So I would send him an emailexplain all the details about
why I might want to go down apath.
And I said and then I wouldtell him I'd like to meet in
three days after you've had timeto think about this.
And he'd say Greg, you know meso well I really appreciate that
(22:28):
I need that.
So I think there is somethingto that.
We process informationdifferently.
Tim Hast (22:33):
We do, we do, and I'm glad you all use the disc
because it makes my visual, itmakes sense to me.
So good, very good.
Greg Hamlin (22:42):
So what are some of the filters that impact our
listening?
We talk a little bit about thatin your book.
Tim Hast (22:47):
We talked about, halt when I'm hungry, angry, lonely
or tired, sometimes insecurityIf I feel like you're attacking
me and you might do somethingthat has nothing to do with me.
But if I feel attacked, then Ibegin to leave the prefrontal,
the logical part of my brain,and I begin to move down into
(23:07):
the part of the brain wherefight or flight lives and when
I'm down there I get defensive.
By the way, when I'm down there, I have the problem-solving
capabilities of a four-year-oldand, as you who have a
one-year-old, you've beenthrough this five times before.
When they get to be about four,when they get into conflict,
(23:27):
they don't handle it very welland that's where we go.
When we get defensive and getinsecure, we begin to move down
into that part of the brain thatis not equipped to listen.
It doesn't want to listen, itjust wants to go to battle and
kill and maim and destroy.
So insecurity.
Another filter is really I'mgoing to get in trouble for
(23:48):
saying this, but it's moregender specific Men tend to have
a lot more of this DNA in theirbloodstream than females, in my
experience, and it's that needto fix things.
When my wife comes in from workand I hear that she's had a bad
day.
I can tell because I can hearit in her voice and I know
better.
I wrote a book on it and I tellpeople, don't do this.
And I find myself doing it.
(24:10):
What is it?
I try to fix her.
I go oh honey, don't feel thatway, it's going to be okay.
And I have to remind myself Tim, you idiot, you wrote a book on
this, you're supposed to listenand go there with them.
And then, after they've beenheard, say are you just wanting
to vent or do you need me tokind of brainstorm with you a
solution on this?
So, fixing things, and thenphysical distractions.
(24:32):
I came up with a new word spits.
Beware of spits.
Physical distractions, whichare spits, which are shiny,
pretty inconsequential things.
Because those things thatdistract me, I am ADD On the
disc, I'm a real high I and Ithink we invented ADD and I get
distracted by stuff.
So when I meet someone forlunch at Panera Bread or
(24:54):
something, I always try to getthere early and sit where I'm
facing the wall so I won't bedistracted by stuff in the
background.
So those are some of the thingsthat distract us and again, if
I'm thinking about a hamburger,I'm really not going to be
thinking about you.
Matt Yehling (25:10):
So when I'm hungry , angry, lonely and tired, so I
know we talked about some ofthese things a little bit
already, but what is R-listening?
I think that's the acronym youuse in the book yes, yes.
So we've hit some of the A-R-Ealready, but what does that mean
?
Tim Hast (25:28):
Well, let me give you something before I tell you that
when I wrote the book they saythat necessity is the mother of
invention and I had executivesthat were sent to me that had
just taken 360s and the 360 saidhe doesn't listen, she doesn't
listen.
And I thought I've got to havesome kind of system where I can
(25:51):
give them something on apostcard, something so simple,
that they can walk out of myoffice and immediately implement
it.
Because if you get people reamsand reams and reams of stuff to
do, it's going to sit in a deskdrawer and they're not going to
learn it, they're not going todo.
It's going to sit in a deskdrawer and they're not going to
learn it, they're not going todo it, they're not going to
implement it.
So I thought I've got to havesome kind of a system to remind
(26:11):
them to listen.
So I thought, well, are youlistening?
Okay, r A, that's activelistening, and when we engage in
deep, powerful listening, it isa very active thing, it's not
passive.
I am moving towards the person,I am trying to picture
everything, I'm trying tovisualize what they're saying,
I'm testing so you're saying, orso you're feeling, or so that
(26:33):
really bothered you and theymight say no, it didn't bother
me, it just made me mad, and soI'm stepping out and taking a
risk.
So there's the active part.
The reflective part is simplyin really good listening, we
become a mirror.
So Greg is talking to hisdaughter and she says you know,
I'm really really upset aboutthis that you know this thing
that you're doing.
(26:53):
In fact, greg, remind me whatit was that she was saying to
you.
Greg Hamlin (26:57):
She said something along the lines of I feel like
what you want for my future andwhat I want for my future are
different things.
Tim Hast (27:04):
You feel like I'm trying to co-opt your future.
You feel like I'm trying totell you what to do.
You feel like I'm the boss ofyou.
That is reflective.
I'm reflecting not exactly whatthey're saying, but I'm
reflecting the essence of whatthey're feeling.
When a human being has someoneelse reflect what they're
(27:26):
feeling, it connects at a deeplevel and that's where you get
the yeah, somebody's hurt Inparentheses they're saying
somebody actually hurt me forthe first time.
So that's the reflective part.
And the empathic part is whereyou feel, where you, ooh, you
know someone's walking down thestreet and they fall down and
(27:48):
hurt themselves.
And when you don't get injuredbut you see them fall and you go
, ooh, that hurts.
There was an old commercial, anold Snickers commercial, and
it's Betty White.
The guy turns into Betty Whiteand there's some old guy that's
also in the commercial and theyknock him down and he goes, ooh,
that hurts.
And you know, empathy isfeeling a little bit of what
(28:11):
someone's feeling.
It's going there.
I will always be a short, bald,white guy.
I'll never know what it feelslike to be a female or a person
of color or someone really tall,because I'm short.
I'll never understand thosethings.
But I can try.
I can try to put myself intheir skin, in their shoes, and
(28:32):
ask myself, if I were goingthrough that experience, what
would I feel?
So that's why listening is hard, because I'm active, I'm
engaging in the process, I'mreally listening to everything
so that I can catch the emotionand reflect it back, and I'm
trying to allow myself to feel,imagine what it would feel like
to be that person.
Matt Yehling (28:52):
I've obviously not taken your class, but I can
assume that it's going to belike halt.
Greg Hamlin (29:00):
Yeah, I know Just to finish that story with my
daughter.
After she said that and we hadthat discussion, then I slowed
down and I said you know what?
I think I can understand whereyou're coming from, because I
know my mom wanted certainthings for me that I didn't want
and that was frustrating, andyou know what you.
And then we just talked aboutit for a while.
(29:20):
I said you know, you're awesomeand you're going to do some
things I'm not going to want todo and it's going to be OK
because you've got your own path.
You're going to have to walkand as we talked through it, I
think like it was watching whathappened from her junior year to
her senior year was so coolbecause she kind of found her
own path and now she's gettingready to go to college at
(29:41):
University of Alabama with afull ride and I couldn't be more
proud.
Yeah, and it's her path.
But it takes letting go someand trying to put ourselves in
the other person's shoes tounderstand.
Well, what are they?
Tim Hast (29:53):
feeling when are they at that must have felt really
good to be in that moment where,instead of her being an
adversary that she was drawingfrom your connection with her.
Greg Hamlin (30:04):
Yeah, and it took probably half an hour.
The first 20 minutes were a lotof her just being upset, so I
think that's the other key whenyou're listening is sometimes it
takes a while to get to thatgood spot.
It doesn't come right away andyou have to do a lot of
listening.
Tim Hast (30:18):
That connects with what you do.
You're listening to people thatare distressed and even if your
job is to fix them, you can'tget to fixing them until you
hear them.
I was in Birmingham.
There's a place in downtownBirmingham that has the best
hamburger in the world.
It's a gourmet hamburger place.
And we're flying home and I'm inthe Birmingham airport and I
(30:40):
talked to the ticket agent atDelta and I said, hey, I'm doing
some research on customerservice satisfaction.
I said what do you do whencustomers are really upset?
And she said we're trained tolisten to them.
She said when they're reallyupset, they don't know what they
want and so we just get them totalk and we listen to them and
after they calm down, then wesay what can I do for you?
(31:02):
And she says sometimes they'llstomp off mad.
But she said it's amazing howmany times if the plane doesn't
leave right, then they'll comeback a few minutes later and say
I'm so sorry for treating youthat way and then they'll ask
for help.
But Delta is training theirpeople to understand that in the
moment when the customer'supset, you can't fix them.
The one thing that you can dofor them is listen to them, and
(31:24):
that begins to disarm that, thatangst that they're suffering in
the moment.
Greg Hamlin (31:30):
Great points.
Matt Yehling (31:30):
Yeah, I mean there's a.
There's the old nursery rhyme.
I don't know if you've heardthis one.
There was an old owl that livedin an Oak.
The more he heard, the less hespoke.
The less he spoke, the more heheard.
Oh, if man were all like thatwise bird.
Tim Hast (31:48):
That's good.
I've heard that, Matt you needto write that down and email me
that, because I love that whenwe do the edit.
I want to do a second editionthat's a little more scientific
and that would be a goodaddition to the next version
scientific and that would be agood addition to the next
version.
Greg Hamlin (32:05):
So we've talked a lot about empathy and the
reflecting piece of it and wetalked about where empathy fits
into that.
Why do you think sometimes weforget that last piece of trying
to put ourselves in otherpeople's shoes or what keeps us
from getting there.
Tim Hast (32:20):
Sometimes and this is not a planned answer this is
just off the cuff of my shirt.
Sometimes I think the level ofintimacy that it requires to
enter into someone else's painis unbearable in the human
experience.
Sometimes we just Last night Iwas worn out, I worked all day
(32:44):
and I'm an elder on a session atour church.
I went to a session meeting andI got home and I just put on my
pajamas and I climbed in bedand I told my wife.
I said I suck as a listenertonight.
Greg Hamlin (33:01):
I said I just don't have it.
Tim Hast (33:03):
I didn't.
I thought I'm doing thispodcast tomorrow and I'm
supposed to be the epitome ofgood listening.
And here I am.
I can't even listen to my wife,but I was just worn out.
And how did I get there?
I got distracted.
What was the question?
No, I think you're listening.
Greg Hamlin (33:20):
No, I think you're spot on on that, on why we
forget to have empathy.
Sometimes, we just get worn outand-.
Tim Hast (33:25):
We just get worn out, and so at some point we have to
say I'm human and I'm going todo better next time.
I'm going to do better nexttime.
Yeah, I'm going to do betternext time.
Greg Hamlin (33:35):
I think you know, one of the things you had in
your book was doing a listeningexercise where you kind of rate
yourself after everyconversation.
How did I do on these?
And I did that for a week whileI was reading it, rating myself
after different conversations,and that's.
I think that helped me see someof the areas where I'm like you
know I could have done better.
I should have moved away frommy monitors or I should have
(33:56):
locked my computer.
I should have turned my phoneover.
I didn't take the time, Irushed them out the door because
I heard what they said.
And then I don't know if, matt,you've ever had this where
someone comes into your officeand they start talking to you
and you got what you needed fromthem in like the first minute
or two, but they're still thereand they talk for a really long
time and you're thinking aboutthe 900 other things you've got
(34:18):
to do.
It's hard to slow down and justbe like you know what I need to
be present in this moment.
Yeah, yeah.
Matt Yehling (34:24):
Yeah, my technique is I stand up and walk out of
the office with them.
That's probably not the best.
I probably shouldn't tell thaton the podcast.
Tim Hast (34:33):
That's probably not the best.
I probably shouldn't tell thaton the podcast.
Matt Yehling (34:36):
You know, tim, what are some of the exercises
or techniques you know for us,but for the industry as well,
you know, to help be betterlisteners, to practice listening
better, to be to do the R, Iguess.
Tim Hast (34:50):
So what does a politician say?
He says I'm so glad you askedthat question, so I'm so glad
you asked that question becausemy issue with executives
remember, I'm an executive coachand I saw this number one
deficit that was across theboard was the inability to
really listen, and I thoughtI've got to come up with
(35:11):
something that they can remember.
So I came up with four thingsand here they are.
And I tell people write thesedown on a card.
I've got a little business card, I've got these printed on the
card and I tell people carry thecard around and every time you
have a conversation, remindyourself to do these four things
.
And if I were drawing a littlestick figure, I would point at
the foot and I would say listenpatiently, because when we're
(35:33):
impatient we tap our foot.
And then I would point anotherarrow at the little guy's body
and I would say listen with yourbody.
And then I would put an arrowat his throat and I would say
listen with your voice.
And then I would put a finalarrow at his head and say listen
with your mind.
Let's go deep, shall we?
Let's talk about the first onelisten patiently.
All of us suffer from adisorder that happens at birth,
(35:59):
when you're a week old and Greghas a lot of experience, but a
week old when the baby is a weekold and they're hungry.
What do they do?
They?
Greg Hamlin (36:07):
cry.
Tim Hast (36:07):
They cry and what happens?
You come feed them, you comefeed them.
These giant hands appear out ofnowhere and they pick the baby
up and come feed them.
These giant hands appear out ofnowhere and they pick the baby
up and they feed it.
And when a baby's a week oldand he or she is poopy, giant
hands appear out of nowhere andthey clean the little baby up
and they wrap it up.
And when a baby's a week oldand they're sleepy, those giant
(36:31):
hands show up.
All the baby has to do is cryand these giant hands show up.
And when you're a week old, theentire world revolves around
you.
All you have to do is makenoise and all of your deepest
needs are met.
And the problem is we get to be18 or 28 or 38 or 58 or 68 and
(36:53):
we never get away from thenotion that the world revolves
around me.
Now I asked this questionearlier.
Why in the world would I everthink about listening to you if
the world revolves around me?
Now, think about that.
And so we tend to make.
When someone's talking to me, Itend to be in a hurry.
(37:13):
Come on, hurry up and say whatyou're going to say so I can get
on down the road.
Or, as I'm listening to you,I'm thinking.
Well, I know the answer to thatquestion.
If you just shut up, I can tellyou and we can get this thing
fixed and get on down the road.
So we tend to listenimpatiently.
Listening impatiently islistening and forming a judgment
before we've heard the wholestory.
(37:34):
Listening impatiently isfiguring out a rebuttal in our
mind.
If people could read our mindwhile they're talking, we would
be in a world of hurt.
We would be in big troublebecause we're all thinking about
the golf game or what we'regoing to do tomorrow, or I'm
getting on a plane on Thursday.
We're all thinking aboutsomething else.
So listening patiently isturning the volume down on all
(37:58):
that and taking my foot off ofthe accelerator of life and
slowing down and walking downthe road of life with that
person.
It doesn't mean we have to dothat for three hours.
Sometimes three minutes ofpatient listening means the
world to the other person.
So the first thing I tellpeople to do is listen patiently
and when someone begins to talkto you, catch yourself in that
(38:18):
moment and say I'm going to letgo, I'm going to set my agenda
aside, I'm going to go with thisperson where they need to go.
The second thing I tell peopleis listen with your body.
You see, in communicationtheory, when we're really really
upset, when we're in fight orflight, only about 7% of our
(38:39):
speaking is words.
Then 38% of our speaking, orour communication, when we're
really upset, is the inflectionof the words oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
Every one of those ohs is thesame word but they mean
something completely different.
So 38% of the communication isinflection.
And then a whopping 55% of ourcommunication when we're really
(39:02):
upset, just when we're reallyupset is our body language.
So 7, 38, 55.
7% words, 38% inflection and awhopping 55% is body language.
That's how I communicate whenI'm really upset.
Well, I've turned that aroundand assumed that for us, when
(39:22):
I'm trying to listen to a personthat's upset, then I need to
pay a lot more attention to mybody language.
So if they're standing, I stand.
If they're sitting, I sit.
I want to sit at a 45 degreeangle so that my shoulders are
not squared.
I want to drop my hands.
If my hands are crossed, I wantto cross my hands.
If my legs are crossed, I wantto cross my legs and lean into
(39:44):
the conversation.
I want to keep within.
Before COVID-19, we said fourfeet, don't get closer than four
feet, don't get too muchfarther away than four feet.
There's kind of a magic area,and so I want to be conscious of
what my body is saying.
The bottom line is we want ourbody to say two things.
When we're listening.
The two things we want our bodyto say is I'm open to what you
(40:08):
have to say and you're safe withme.
Again, and you're working withcustomers over the phone, they
can't see your body, so thatrequires that you do the other
three a lot more.
But even when I'm listening andthey can't see my body, right
now with you guys, I'm leaninginto my microphone Because when
I assume a posture of openness,research indicates that I
(40:32):
actually hear about 28% more.
So I try to.
Even when people can't see mybody, I still try to hold my
arms in an open stance and openmy body up, because I'm wanting
to communicate two things thatyou're safe and I'm open to what
you have to say.
The third thing I tell people todo is listen with your voice,
(40:53):
and if you've gone to reflectivelistening or some kind of class
on communication, we all knowactive listening, but the
problem is we teach people.
I think I'm hearing, so I thinkyou're saying so.
It sounds to me like and thoseare all good, those are good
places to start, but I want youto get so good at listening that
you say that really botheredyou, you're really excited,
(41:16):
you're really upset that I oryou're not saying I think I hear
, because they know you hear.
You just make it short and makeit sweet to where they don't
even realize that you'rereflecting Human beings.
When you begin to reflect andreally hear them, they're not
even aware of what you're doing.
They're just feeling this senseof someone.
(41:36):
They're not even articulatingthe word someone is hearing me.
They're just sensing a freedomand a relief and a satisfaction
in the fact that they're heardand they're not even thinking oh
, he's hearing me.
So listening with your voice issomething that we tend to make
more of it than it really is.
(41:56):
When you guys leave thispodcast, when you walk out the
door and you have a conversationwith someone just as soon as
you get done from the podcast,remind yourself to listen with
your voice.
Listening with your voice islistening and restating a little
bit of what you hear the personsay You're real excited, you're
having a good time, you'rethinking about that hamburger in
(42:17):
Birmingham.
It really was a good hamburger.
That's kind of the theme today.
That's the third time I've saidhamburger.
Greg Hamlin (42:23):
It's like what's up with that?
I must be craving a hamburger.
No, that's great.
And I think the reflective partis really important, and I love
what you said about your body,in that we think that while
we're on the phone, people can'tsee us.
It won't matter, and it reallydoes.
I noticed so before I got intoclaims.
When I was still in college, Iwas doing non-for-profit
(42:45):
fundraising for the university,raising scholarships for
students, and I noticed on thedays that I was struggling like
I was really struggling toconnect with people.
If I just pushed my chair backand stood up, engaged more with
my body, I got better results.
And so there was something aboutjust it turned on some things
in my head, I guess, or my, myvoice.
(43:06):
You could hear that I had moreenergy, that I was more
connected and that I was moreengaged.
So I really do think there'ssomething to what you say about
even if you can't be next tosomebody, still how you sit
where you are, it matters.
Tim Hast (43:22):
What a great discovery you just winked out on me.
I'm making sure that I stillhave audio.
Greg Hamlin (43:26):
We're here, yes.
Tim Hast (43:27):
Good, good, good, Because it just went max
headroom for just a second.
So listen patiently with yourbody, listen with your voice and
finally, listen with your mind.
And listening with your mind issimply visualizing what the
person is telling you.
When you told me you had sixkids, I pictured them.
I could just see them, you know, like the stickers on the back
of minivans.
You know that has mommy anddaddy in the stair step.
(43:48):
I saw all six of the kids andit doesn't have to be a and it
can be a caricature.
In fact, the more colorful andthe more outlandish the picture
is, the more it will help youremember what the person is
saying and the beauty of when Ilisten with my mind.
If I want to listen with myvoice, all I have to do is kind
(44:08):
of look at the picture that I'vecreated in my mind and just
describe the picture and ithelps me listen with my voice.
So I tell people take these fourthings and every time you
anticipate that you're going tohave a conversation, if you've
written these things down,listen patiently with your body,
with your voice and with yourmind.
If you've written these fourthings down on a three by five
(44:30):
card or the back of a businesscard, if, when you're
approaching that meeting, you'rereminding yourself okay, I'm
going to meet with Jacob and I'mgoing to remind myself to
listen patiently.
I'm not going to make it allabout me.
I'm going to listen with mybody, I'm going to make sure
that I'm open, I'm going to domy best to hear what he's saying
and reflect back the emotionthat he's feeling, and then I'm
(44:51):
going to just do my very best topicture what he's saying.
That's hard work.
You need to know that when youlisten, and really listen, when
you engage in our listening,active, reflective, empathic
listening you're going to betired at the end of the day
because it is hard work, but,folks, the dividends are so
(45:11):
great that it's worth all theeffort.
I got to tell you.
Matt Yehling (45:15):
That's why I know your meeting last night was
effective, Tim, because you camehome when you were exhausted.
Greg Hamlin (45:24):
I think that's a great place to kind of tie
things up is just at one.
It's something we have topractice all the time and it's
not something you arrive at andthere are days that you're not
going to be your best, but it'sjust continuing to work at it
and when we do that, the resultsreally they're there, Tim, as
we wrap things up, if peoplewant to connect with you, either
(45:45):
to get your book I know I foundit on Amazon, so I assume they
can find it there like I did.
Yes, but if they were interestedin your executive coaching or
some of the trainings you do,whether that's DISC or some of
the other types of trainingsthat you do, how do they find
you too?
Tim Hast (46:01):
The world's easiest email address.
I'm at coach at attnet that'sC-O-A-C-H at sign A-T-T dot net
and I'd love to hear from you.
That's excellent.
Greg Hamlin (46:15):
Excellent.
Well, one of the things thatwe're doing this season because
it's really important to me thatwe put good stuff out in the
universe.
There's so much negativity, andso one of the commitments that
I've made when we did thepodcast after we got through the
first season is I wanted to endon something that just put some
of that good stuff back outthere.
And I'd like to ask you thisfinal question what's something
(46:38):
you're grateful for?
Tim Hast (46:40):
What am I grateful for ?
I'm grateful for people whoforgive me.
Greg Hamlin (46:45):
I love that, you know, and I think we all
probably could do a better jobof forgiving each other of our
weak spots.
Matt Yehling (47:01):
So what a great what a great way to end.
Thanks Tim, Thanks Greg.
This has been great.
We get to do these things andit's a lot of fun.
I always learn so much and thisone's been really special.
I think it speaks to me, youknow, in a management position,
I think it.
Hopefully it speaks to thoseout there listening to this,
adjusters, or wherever you arein the whole workers comp
(47:23):
process.
You know, I think we can all bebetter listeners, better
communicators.
So thank you very much.
I mean halt and R.
I'm going to remember that Itook copious amounts of notes
this is great.
Thank you very much.
Tim Hast (47:36):
Well, it's been a pleasure on my part and I try to
listen.
Well, but I'm an eye on thedisc so I like to talk too.
So anytime you guys want to doa podcast, give me a call and
we'll talk about hamburgers oreffective listening or effective
speaking or whatever you wantto talk about.
So thank you for your time.
Greg Hamlin (47:55):
That sounds fantastic.
Thanks again, tim, and I'lljust remind all of our listeners
our motto to do right, thinkdifferently and don't forget to
care.
And that's it for this week,guys, and we will see you every
two weeks as we release on ourregular schedule.
Thanks again, thank you.
Hello everybody and welcome to Adjusted.
I'm your host, greg Hamlin,coming at you from beautiful
Birmingham, Alabama and BerkeleyIndustrial Comp, and I'm
excited to share with you thisrebroadcast.
This particular episode is oneof those fun ones where I
actually had a chance tointerview somebody that impacted
(00:35):
my life.
You don't always get thatchance or we definitely don't
but I had read a book a numberof years ago on listening and
the power of listening and I wasso impressed with it that I've
incorporated quite a bit of itinto our departmental trainings
and what I do personally in mywork life and in my home life,
and it's made a positive impact.
(00:56):
So to have the opportunity tohave Tim Host join our episode
and share the power of listeningwith our audience was
particularly pertinent to me.
I think there's a lot ofexcellent content here and I do
think it's one of the thingsthat we could do a lot better as
an industry in putting emphasison listening, especially in a
(01:19):
very complicated insurancesector.
So with that, I remind you tolike, follow and share our
episodes.
We want more people to findtheir way to the podcast and
also encourage you to leave afive-star review on your
favorite platform so that we'llbe able to help others find
(01:41):
their way to this episode, andwith that, I'll remind you to do
right, think differently anddon't forget to care.
Enjoy.
Hello everybody and welcome toAdjusted.
I'm your host, greg Hamlin,coming at you from beautiful
Birmingham, alabama, wherespring has arrived and the
sunshine is out, and with me ismy co-host for the day, matt
(02:05):
Yelling.
Matt, do you want to introduceyourself and say hello to
everybody?
Matt Yehling (02:08):
Hello everyone, this is Matthew Yelling, joining
you from St Louis, Missouri,along the banks of the mighty
Mississippi.
Welcome.
Greg Hamlin (02:16):
Always glad to have you back, Matt.
Matt Yehling (02:17):
Thank you.
Greg Hamlin (02:18):
I am super excited about our guest today.
With us today is Tim Haast, andhe is an executive coach and
author of a book called PowerfulListening, powerful Influence,
and I first ran into his book anumber of years ago and had
always wanted to do an episodewith him and I thought, well, if
I could figure out how to gethold of him, maybe he'd say yes.
(02:40):
And so here he is.
So, tim, if you could say helloto everybody and maybe
introduce yourself a littlebetter than I did, Well, thank
you, greg.
Tim Hast (02:47):
I'm Tim Hest and I am, as they say, I'm glad to be
here.
At my age, I'm glad to beanywhere.
But welcome to you guys to myneck of the woods, since I'm
seeing you from Oklahoma today.
That's where we're at it'srainy and turning spring and
I've got tomatoes planted andI'm looking forward to about the
middle of July when thetomatoes are nice and ripe.
So that's where I am today.
Greg Hamlin (03:09):
You're making me feel guilty.
I haven't gotten to my gardenyet.
It's still got a bunch of grassin it that I need to turn over,
so I need to get on that thisweekend.
Well, tim, I wanted to start alittle bit by just understanding
how you got into the coachingindustry.
I know, obviously I've readyour book, so I'm just curious
what brought you down the pathof one deciding to write a book
(03:29):
on listening and then maybe howdid you end up in the industry
you're in?
I'm sure when you were a kidyou thought to yourself this is
what I'm going to do.
Tim Hast (03:38):
When I grow up I want to be a consultant.
Well, I started out, greg.
I started out as a counselor,no-transcript and so I started
(04:14):
working with first respondersand just realized that I really
loved helping them.
But there's a problem whenyou're working with trauma.
I noticed that, as satisfyingas it can be to work with people
that are hurting, I found thatmy own bucket was getting a
little too full of trauma.
You hear stories over and overand we call it secondary trauma
when you're listening topeople's stories.
(04:36):
So that began to kind of createa change in me and during that
time I noticed about a third ofmy clients were really depressed
and about a third of my clientswere trauma victims.
But about a third of my clientswere people that just didn't
know what they wanted to be whenthey grew up and they would be
asking me you know, help me kindof figure out my direction.
(04:56):
And you know I discovered thatI really loved.
I loved working with all threeof my different sets of clients,
but those clients that I washelping them with their career.
I just found that I reallyloved.
I loved working with all threeof my different sets of clients,
but those clients that I washelping them with their career.
I just found that I had areally propensity for that and
it was a way to not focus quiteso much on trauma.
So I'm focused on these peoplethat are wanting to be better in
(05:18):
their career, and I discoveredthey have a name for that.
Imagine this they call it lifecoaching and I thought, well,
that's pretty smart, that'spretty cool.
So I begin to make thetransition from psychologist or
psychotherapist to executivecoach.
I actually keep my counselinglicense say that fast, 23 times.
(05:38):
I try to keep my licensecurrent and up to date.
But mainly I coach and I train,and I started enjoying
successes as a coach.
The more I coach, the morepeople would say well, come talk
to our group, you helped me, sohelp our group.
So I remember the first time Igot up and stood in front of a
bunch of people and got to talkand I realized this is really
(06:01):
fun.
I'm one of those really sickpeople that, instead of being
afraid of getting up in front ofpeople and talking, I love it.
So that's kind of what has ledme to where I am right now.
I do executive coaching and Ido training and I go in and
analyze systems I don't meanoperational systems, but people
(06:21):
systems and really my vision isI go to the workplace and help
people get along and share theirtoys.
So that's where I am and that'swhat got me here.
Greg Hamlin (06:32):
That's awesome.
Well, I mentioned this as wewere starting up, tim that about
.
I think it's probably beenseven or eight years ago.
I did a 360 review and forthose who don't know what those
are, it's really a window intohow others perceive you.
So you have your boss evaluatesyou, your peers and your direct
(06:53):
reports, and so I managed avery large department at the
time of about 60 people.
So that was a lot of feedbackto receive and it was scrubbed
down.
And I had done this yearsbefore and got quite a bit of
positive feedback, but probablynot as much constructive
feedback as I could have hopedfor.
And one of the things thatreally stood out as I went
through that was one of thecomments was that several
(07:16):
different people didn't feellike they were heard, and that
was really surprising to mebecause I always felt like I was
a really good communicator andthe person leading the 360
probably could have done somethings different.
But she's like well, what wouldyour wife say if you talked to
her about it?
Tim Hast (07:30):
And I was like I don't know.
I'll ask her.
She's never said.
I'm not a good listener and Iasked her and she goes.
Greg Hamlin (07:36):
She actually was like, well, I think you do a
good job.
And I was thinking, well, Imust be missing something
because people are perceiving methis way, or some people are.
And so I bought a book onlistening hated it felt.
Whoever the author was, I don'tremember what the book was, but
it felt very condescending, soI just couldn't connect.
And then I picked your book upand read it and I started doing
(07:57):
some of those exercises, some ofthe things we'll talk about
today, and it was like a switchwent on and I've really felt
like it's impacted myrelationships with my kids, my
family, my work.
So I felt like there was a lotto talk about and really would
say like I've got a whole pileof books here, but of all the
books I've read, that was one ofthe most meaningful.
(08:18):
So I'm really excited aboutthis topic of listening For you,
tim.
why do you feel like listeningis important?
Tim Hast (08:25):
I'm going to answer that I'm going to go around the
block the long way around theblock to answer that.
The answer that I come up withis really tied to my experience
working with couples and alsoworking with people that were
responding to the bombing.
In both of those situationspeople are hurting and in that
moment life really doesn't makea whole lot of sense.
We learn from the bombing andalso working in other disasters
(08:48):
that the most powerful tool forhelping people move beyond
trauma is to have another humanbeing take the time to really
listen listen without givingadvice and in doing that, as a
therapist, we're trained tolisten.
But I begin to realize if I canteach my clients to listen to
each other, they wouldn't needme so much If I could teach them
(09:11):
to really hear each other.
In that moment, when someonesays something to you and the
last thing you want to do islisten, the first thing you want
to do is smack them upside thehead and say stop doing that.
But if I could catch myself andremind myself they're hurting
and they need to be heard.
Hurting and heard if I remindmyself that suddenly listening
(09:32):
takes on a whole new dimension.
So the why or the rationalebehind the importance of
listening is that it should bethe number one tool in your
toolkit.
When I begin to make thattransition into coaching people
in leadership, people would cometo me, like Greg who had just
taken a 360.
And often the 360 would say hedoesn't listen, she doesn't
(09:55):
listen, and so the team would bereally ticked off with their
boss because they would say youknow, I tell my boss things and
he really does.
I'm not just using guys becauseit is not gender specific, but
the complaint was I'm having aproblem with my team and after
they would take a 360, theywould realize the problem really
was that the person at the topwas not listening.
(10:18):
And I realized then and therethat if I'm going to help people
be better, the first tool intheir toolkit has got to be the
tool of listening moreeffectively.
Matt Yehling (10:29):
So it's kind of like when I take my dog to
training, I find out that I'mnot really training the dog I'm
training the teacher right.
Tim Hast (10:36):
Yes, that is so true.
Matt Yehling (10:40):
In your book you actually outline four reasons
why people tend to be poorlisteners.
Maybe, as we launch thispodcast, you could walk through
those four reasons.
Tim Hast (10:55):
Well, one of the reasons why people are poor
listeners is, first of all andwe're going to come back to this
later, I'm sure is we make itall about us.
The world revolves around us,and if the world revolves around
me, why in the world would Iwant to listen to you, matthew?
So that's one reason.
Another reason is when we'rephysically tired, when it's the
end of the day and I'm worn outeven though I wrote a book on
(11:18):
listening, I'm just as human asanybody else and I have to
remind myself to abide by my ownrules.
So reminding myself hey, youknow, you might not be a good
listener right now or when I'vegot a lot of stuff going on,
when I'm in the office and twoor three things are happening at
once, or when I'm thinking thatI know what the person, where
(11:39):
they're going, what they'resaying and where they're going.
With that, that line of thoughtand I go in one direction and
they go in another direction.
I'm adding two more reasons,and we will probably come back
to this and talk about this more.
There's a word, and the word isHALT, and the HALT stands for
when I'm hungry, when I'm angry,when I'm lonely and when I'm
(11:59):
tired.
When one of those fourconditions exist, it makes it
really hard to listen.
When all I can think about ishaving a big mac, then my
ability to listen is severelyimpaired.
If I am ticked off, if I'vebeen driving down the interstate
and someone pulls in front ofme and throws in the brakes and
I'm I'm in a state of anger,then I'm not going to be a very
(12:20):
good listener.
If I feel disconnected orlonely and I don't mean lonely
like, oh, I want to be married,I mean lonely like I haven't
been around the people thatbring me joy, that encourage me
Then I have a propensity to notreally want to focus on people.
Or when I'm simply tired I can'ttell you how many times, as a
therapist, couples would come inand say, oh, we had this
(12:41):
terrible fight the other nightand and it was terrible, and we
said all kinds of awful thingsto each other.
And they said and then we wentto bed and the next day we got
up and we thought what were wearguing about last night?
And I would look at them andsay you were simply tired, you
were suffering from HALT, hungry, angry, lonely or tired.
So there are many externalvariants that keep us from
(13:04):
listening.
But I think the biggest one andwe're going to come back to
this is that we tend to make theworld all about us.
In just a little bit, I'm goingto give you four things that
will help you be a betterlistener, and we'll revisit
those things.
Greg Hamlin (13:19):
I think that's really powerful.
Some of the things you'rementioning there.
I think probably that onecomment you just said is the
hardest to come to terms with,that we actually are thinking
about ourselves a lot and that'sa hard thing to hear because
you think, well, I care aboutall these people.
But one of the things I'velearned through my own
experience and through some ofthe exercises was just that
(13:41):
hearing somebody and having themfeel heard are different things
.
So I might feel I took in theinformation.
But if you don't feel that Itook in the information because
you don't feel heard, it doesn'tmatter.
And I can remember I've got sixkids, so I'm in the teenager
(14:01):
zone.
Yeah, I've got 18 year old 18out of one right.
And when my 18 year old, whenshe was about 16, 17, so not
that long ago we were having adiscussion about kind of where
she wanted to go with her lifeand I was just really trying to
use my listening skills and notmy dad lecture skills and as she
was talking I said so what I'mhearing you say is I feel you
(14:24):
feel really frustrated that whatI want for you and what you
want for yourself are differentthings.
And she goes yes, and when shesaid that, I was like you know
what she feels hurt.
That's the indicator right there.
Yeah, and I can't tell you howmany times I've had since.
I've practiced it.
Tim Hast (14:42):
I'm not perfect at it, but when you get that response,
whether it's that visceralresponse when they go yes, when
you hear the sigh in their voice, you know you connected, you
know you hit a home run.
Greg Hamlin (14:55):
Right, and it's so easy to be thinking about what
you want to say next instead ofjust taking the time to slow
down and make sure youunderstand them and that they
feel understood.
And I think that's the biggestthing I've had to keep working
on is I'm so busy.
I've got six kids, I've gotthis job.
I'm going a thousand miles aminute.
Tim Hast (15:14):
Slowing down is hard.
I'm still stuck on you havingsix kids.
It's a crazy world we live in.
One to 18, that's amazing.
It's a crazy world we live in.
Greg Hamlin (15:25):
That's amazing, that's a crazy world we live in,
but talk to us a little bitmore about the difference
between hearing and listening.
I talked a little bit about myexperiences, but maybe some of
the things you've seen.
Tim Hast (15:39):
Sure Well, hearing is the psychological process of
attending to the sound in one'senvironment.
I hear frogs, I hear birds, Ihear the wind blow, listening
and some people might say, well,you're making a distinction.
That's really not there.
But for me, listening isfocused.
It's concentrated.
It's an approach tounderstanding the meaning of the
message that the person issending.
We think in pictures, not words.
I'm taking the picture in myhead and I'm converting it to
(16:02):
words so that I can beam itacross space into your head,
where you convert it back topictures.
And until the picture that isin my head is in your head, the
transaction has not taken place.
So, as a listener, I'm tryingto do my best to hear what is
that that person is picturing intheir head and recreate that
picture in my head.
Matt Yehling (16:23):
Right, and I'm going to shift gears on you a
little bit.
I know so.
In the work comp industry, youknow we deal with trauma every
day too, and you know I thinkyou know why we brought you on
and why we wanted to talk to you.
you know about this is like forthe industry and for to improve
our own careers and the careersof our staff right it's.
You know we have to all bebetter listeners and before we
(16:43):
started I talked to you a littlebit about you know that we're
going through a big innovationpush and innovation's important
and you know I applauded youbecause you know reflective
listening was one of the keyphrases in your book that I
picked up on and we are taughthow to speak clearly and we're
not gonna hear the ums and ahsthat I'm saying in this
conversation because Jacob'sgoing to edit all that out.
But you know we take speechclasses.
(17:04):
We take those in high school,we take them in college, but
there's no listening classes.
So why do you think there'smore focus on the skill of
speaking and no emphasis onlistening?
Tim Hast (17:15):
Well, I think it's real simple.
It's a lot sexier to get up infront of people and talk and
make it all about me than it isto be quiet and focus on the
other person.
I really think that we can seethe line between the action and
the results, the line ofconnection between I'm going to
get up, stand up in front ofpeople and communicate and
(17:37):
success.
We can see that direct line.
It's a lot easier to see thatline, but when we take the time
to listen, the dividends are notquite so apparent in the moment
.
Sometimes they are, when youspeak to your daughter and when
your daughter's speaking to youand you finally hear her and she
goes yeah, that is that directconnection between what I'm
(17:59):
doing and the dividend, thepayoff from that.
But often we don't see thatpayoff and I just think that it
sounds a lot more exciting totalk about being a better
communicator when the truth isand I'm going to preach here but
the truth is, if I learn how tolisten to Matthew, if I learn
how to truly hear you, then Ihave a wonderful roadmap that
(18:20):
teaches me how to communicatemore effectively.
Because if I know what it takesto make you feel heard.
Then I have the roadmap toeffective communication as well.
That's wonderful.
Matt Yehling (18:32):
Yeah, in your book you also reference that.
You know, even as apsychologist you took one
semester of listening right andthen even in that class you
mentioned that.
You know the focus was on howto respond to people.
Tim Hast (18:44):
It wasn't even like listening to them.
Matt Yehling (18:46):
So has that changed?
Or you know, like, how is thatpossible?
Tim Hast (18:51):
You know it seems almost common sense, but you
know you're the expert on this,you know so Well, I'm not the
expert on why people do whatthey do that there's still a big
mystery to me as well but Isimply think that it's just not
as glamorous to talk about.
I'm going to sit down and bequiet and listen to people, as
(19:13):
opposed to I'm going to get upin front of people and
communicate and influence theminds of millions.
I know that that's areductionist approach.
I think that's kind of big,using really bold lines to
describe something that it's alot more nuanced than that.
But I think the bottom line isthat we put a lot more emphasis
(19:33):
on what comes out of our mouthand what goes in our ears.
Ooh, somebody write that down.
That was good.
I don't know where that camefrom.
Greg Hamlin (19:42):
I agree and I you know.
I think one of the things thatI've learned is that to be a
good communicator, if you wantto make real, meaningful change,
you need trust, and trust onlycomes from showing respect and
understanding, so, whetherthat's in your family or on your
team or whoever you're workingwith, it's a really important
(20:03):
key.
When I started doing my ownself-reflection, I realized one
of my blockers was I'm so busyand I have so many things on my
list that I want to go 100 milesan hour, and I've had to learn
to slow myself down.
When people come in my office,I turn my phone upside down.
Matt Yehling (20:21):
I lock my computer down.
When people come on my office,I turn my phone upside down.
Greg Hamlin (20:24):
I lock my computer.
I slide away from my monitorsso that they could see I am
fully present for you right now.
Tim Hast (20:29):
And.
Greg Hamlin (20:29):
I'm not even going to let those other things
distract me, even though I knowhow busy I am.
So that was one of the things Iworked on, but I know there are
other things that create thatmake us bad listeners.
Tim, what are some of the otherthings out there that you feel
like are blockers that cause usto be bad listeners?
Tim Hast (20:47):
Well, I want to mention something.
One of the things I do is I dopersonality assessments and I do
team assessments so thateverybody on the team
understands each other andpeople that are very extroverted
and very fast-paced.
That's one personality style.
All the personality styles aregood.
There's not a bad one.
But because of that nature ofbeing really, really
(21:08):
forward-thinking and getting thejob done, they're like Larry
the Cable Guy.
You know, get her done.
And it's like let's get thisdone.
And that becomes the enemy oflistening, because listening
requires that I, for a moment,or for a few moments or for a
few minutes, I disable that needto move on to the next thing
and simply be present in themoment.
(21:29):
That's wonderful.
So when I revise the book, I'mgoing to go a lot more into
situational that what yourpersonality style is.
There are some things about theway you listen and the way you
want to be heard that reallyimpact these different styles as
well, but that's for anotherbook.
Greg Hamlin (21:45):
Well, we've as a company I know we've done
exercises in both disc andstrength finders.
Both of those have been reallyeye-opening, just to kind of see
where your blind spots are andwhere your superpowers are and
really get an idea of.
Well, okay, this is where wemeet my president, who's now
about to retire.
He on the disc is opposite ofme and one of the things I
(22:07):
learned through that is that helikes to have all the
information, have time toprocess it before he makes a
decision.
So I would send him an emailexplain all the details about
why I might want to go down apath.
And I said and then I wouldtell him I'd like to meet in
three days after you've had timeto think about this.
And he'd say Greg, you know meso well I really appreciate that
(22:28):
I need that.
So I think there is somethingto that.
We process informationdifferently.
Tim Hast (22:33):
We do, we do, and I'm glad you all use the disc
because it makes my visual, itmakes sense to me.
So good, very good.
Greg Hamlin (22:42):
So what are some of the filters that impact our
listening?
We talk a little bit about thatin your book.
Tim Hast (22:47):
We talked about, halt when I'm hungry, angry, lonely
or tired, sometimes insecurityIf I feel like you're attacking
me and you might do somethingthat has nothing to do with me.
But if I feel attacked, then Ibegin to leave the prefrontal,
the logical part of my brain,and I begin to move down into
(23:07):
the part of the brain wherefight or flight lives and when
I'm down there I get defensive.
By the way, when I'm down there, I have the problem-solving
capabilities of a four-year-oldand, as you who have a
one-year-old, you've beenthrough this five times before.
When they get to be about four,when they get into conflict,
(23:27):
they don't handle it very welland that's where we go.
When we get defensive and getinsecure, we begin to move down
into that part of the brain thatis not equipped to listen.
It doesn't want to listen, itjust wants to go to battle and
kill and maim and destroy.
So insecurity.
Another filter is really I'mgoing to get in trouble for
(23:48):
saying this, but it's moregender specific Men tend to have
a lot more of this DNA in theirbloodstream than females, in my
experience, and it's that needto fix things.
When my wife comes in from workand I hear that she's had a bad
day.
I can tell because I can hearit in her voice and I know
better.
I wrote a book on it and I tellpeople, don't do this.
And I find myself doing it.
(24:10):
What is it?
I try to fix her.
I go oh honey, don't feel thatway, it's going to be okay.
And I have to remind myself Tim, you idiot, you wrote a book on
this, you're supposed to listenand go there with them.
And then, after they've beenheard, say are you just wanting
to vent or do you need me tokind of brainstorm with you a
solution on this?
So, fixing things, and thenphysical distractions.
(24:32):
I came up with a new word spits.
Beware of spits.
Physical distractions, whichare spits, which are shiny,
pretty inconsequential things.
Because those things thatdistract me, I am ADD On the
disc, I'm a real high I and Ithink we invented ADD and I get
distracted by stuff.
So when I meet someone forlunch at Panera Bread or
(24:54):
something, I always try to getthere early and sit where I'm
facing the wall so I won't bedistracted by stuff in the
background.
So those are some of the thingsthat distract us and again, if
I'm thinking about a hamburger,I'm really not going to be
thinking about you.
Matt Yehling (25:10):
So when I'm hungry , angry, lonely and tired, so I
know we talked about some ofthese things a little bit
already, but what is R-listening?
I think that's the acronym youuse in the book yes, yes.
So we've hit some of the A-R-Ealready, but what does that mean
?
Tim Hast (25:28):
Well, let me give you something before I tell you that
when I wrote the book they saythat necessity is the mother of
invention and I had executivesthat were sent to me that had
just taken 360s and the 360 saidhe doesn't listen, she doesn't
listen.
And I thought I've got to havesome kind of system where I can
(25:51):
give them something on apostcard, something so simple,
that they can walk out of myoffice and immediately implement
it.
Because if you get people reamsand reams and reams of stuff to
do, it's going to sit in a deskdrawer and they're not going to
learn it, they're not going todo.
It's going to sit in a deskdrawer and they're not going to
learn it, they're not going todo it, they're not going to
implement it.
So I thought I've got to havesome kind of a system to remind
(26:11):
them to listen.
So I thought, well, are youlistening?
Okay, r A, that's activelistening, and when we engage in
deep, powerful listening, it isa very active thing, it's not
passive.
I am moving towards the person,I am trying to picture
everything, I'm trying tovisualize what they're saying,
I'm testing so you're saying, orso you're feeling, or so that
(26:33):
really bothered you and theymight say no, it didn't bother
me, it just made me mad, and soI'm stepping out and taking a
risk.
So there's the active part.
The reflective part is simplyin really good listening, we
become a mirror.
So Greg is talking to hisdaughter and she says you know,
I'm really really upset aboutthis that you know this thing
that you're doing.
(26:53):
In fact, greg, remind me whatit was that she was saying to
you.
Greg Hamlin (26:57):
She said something along the lines of I feel like
what you want for my future andwhat I want for my future are
different things.
Tim Hast (27:04):
You feel like I'm trying to co-opt your future.
You feel like I'm trying totell you what to do.
You feel like I'm the boss ofyou.
That is reflective.
I'm reflecting not exactly whatthey're saying, but I'm
reflecting the essence of whatthey're feeling.
When a human being has someoneelse reflect what they're
(27:26):
feeling, it connects at a deeplevel and that's where you get
the yeah, somebody's hurt Inparentheses they're saying
somebody actually hurt me forthe first time.
So that's the reflective part.
And the empathic part is whereyou feel, where you, ooh, you
know someone's walking down thestreet and they fall down and
(27:48):
hurt themselves.
And when you don't get injuredbut you see them fall and you go
, ooh, that hurts.
There was an old commercial, anold Snickers commercial, and
it's Betty White.
The guy turns into Betty Whiteand there's some old guy that's
also in the commercial and theyknock him down and he goes, ooh,
that hurts.
And you know, empathy isfeeling a little bit of what
(28:11):
someone's feeling.
It's going there.
I will always be a short, bald,white guy.
I'll never know what it feelslike to be a female or a person
of color or someone really tall,because I'm short.
I'll never understand thosethings.
But I can try.
I can try to put myself intheir skin, in their shoes, and
(28:32):
ask myself, if I were goingthrough that experience, what
would I feel?
So that's why listening is hard, because I'm active, I'm
engaging in the process, I'mreally listening to everything
so that I can catch the emotionand reflect it back, and I'm
trying to allow myself to feel,imagine what it would feel like
to be that person.
Matt Yehling (28:52):
I've obviously not taken your class, but I can
assume that it's going to belike halt.
Greg Hamlin (29:00):
Yeah, I know Just to finish that story with my
daughter.
After she said that and we hadthat discussion, then I slowed
down and I said you know what?
I think I can understand whereyou're coming from, because I
know my mom wanted certainthings for me that I didn't want
and that was frustrating, andyou know what you.
And then we just talked aboutit for a while.
(29:20):
I said you know, you're awesomeand you're going to do some
things I'm not going to want todo and it's going to be OK
because you've got your own path.
You're going to have to walkand as we talked through it, I
think like it was watching whathappened from her junior year to
her senior year was so coolbecause she kind of found her
own path and now she's gettingready to go to college at
(29:41):
University of Alabama with afull ride and I couldn't be more
proud.
Yeah, and it's her path.
But it takes letting go someand trying to put ourselves in
the other person's shoes tounderstand.
Well, what are they?
Tim Hast (29:53):
feeling when are they at that must have felt really
good to be in that moment where,instead of her being an
adversary that she was drawingfrom your connection with her.
Greg Hamlin (30:04):
Yeah, and it took probably half an hour.
The first 20 minutes were a lotof her just being upset, so I
think that's the other key whenyou're listening is sometimes it
takes a while to get to thatgood spot.
It doesn't come right away andyou have to do a lot of
listening.
Tim Hast (30:18):
That connects with what you do.
You're listening to people thatare distressed and even if your
job is to fix them, you can'tget to fixing them until you
hear them.
I was in Birmingham.
There's a place in downtownBirmingham that has the best
hamburger in the world.
It's a gourmet hamburger place.
And we're flying home and I'm inthe Birmingham airport and I
(30:40):
talked to the ticket agent atDelta and I said, hey, I'm doing
some research on customerservice satisfaction.
I said what do you do whencustomers are really upset?
And she said we're trained tolisten to them.
She said when they're reallyupset, they don't know what they
want and so we just get them totalk and we listen to them and
after they calm down, then wesay what can I do for you?
(31:02):
And she says sometimes they'llstomp off mad.
But she said it's amazing howmany times if the plane doesn't
leave right, then they'll comeback a few minutes later and say
I'm so sorry for treating youthat way and then they'll ask
for help.
But Delta is training theirpeople to understand that in the
moment when the customer'supset, you can't fix them.
The one thing that you can dofor them is listen to them, and
(31:24):
that begins to disarm that, thatangst that they're suffering in
the moment.
Greg Hamlin (31:30):
Great points.
Matt Yehling (31:30):
Yeah, I mean there's a.
There's the old nursery rhyme.
I don't know if you've heardthis one.
There was an old owl that livedin an Oak.
The more he heard, the less hespoke.
The less he spoke, the more heheard.
Oh, if man were all like thatwise bird.
Tim Hast (31:48):
That's good.
I've heard that, Matt you needto write that down and email me
that, because I love that whenwe do the edit.
I want to do a second editionthat's a little more scientific
and that would be a goodaddition to the next version
scientific and that would be agood addition to the next
version.
Greg Hamlin (32:05):
So we've talked a lot about empathy and the
reflecting piece of it and wetalked about where empathy fits
into that.
Why do you think sometimes weforget that last piece of trying
to put ourselves in otherpeople's shoes or what keeps us
from getting there.
Tim Hast (32:20):
Sometimes and this is not a planned answer this is
just off the cuff of my shirt.
Sometimes I think the level ofintimacy that it requires to
enter into someone else's painis unbearable in the human
experience.
Sometimes we just Last night Iwas worn out, I worked all day
(32:44):
and I'm an elder on a session atour church.
I went to a session meeting andI got home and I just put on my
pajamas and I climbed in bedand I told my wife.
I said I suck as a listenertonight.
Greg Hamlin (33:01):
I said I just don't have it.
Tim Hast (33:03):
I didn't.
I thought I'm doing thispodcast tomorrow and I'm
supposed to be the epitome ofgood listening.
And here I am.
I can't even listen to my wife,but I was just worn out.
And how did I get there?
I got distracted.
What was the question?
No, I think you're listening.
Greg Hamlin (33:20):
No, I think you're spot on on that, on why we
forget to have empathy.
Sometimes, we just get worn outand-.
Tim Hast (33:25):
We just get worn out, and so at some point we have to
say I'm human and I'm going todo better next time.
I'm going to do better nexttime.
Yeah, I'm going to do betternext time.
Greg Hamlin (33:35):
I think you know, one of the things you had in
your book was doing a listeningexercise where you kind of rate
yourself after everyconversation.
How did I do on these?
And I did that for a week whileI was reading it, rating myself
after different conversations,and that's.
I think that helped me see someof the areas where I'm like you
know I could have done better.
I should have moved away frommy monitors or I should have
(33:56):
locked my computer.
I should have turned my phoneover.
I didn't take the time, Irushed them out the door because
I heard what they said.
And then I don't know if, matt,you've ever had this where
someone comes into your officeand they start talking to you
and you got what you needed fromthem in like the first minute
or two, but they're still thereand they talk for a really long
time and you're thinking aboutthe 900 other things you've got
(34:18):
to do.
It's hard to slow down and justbe like you know what I need to
be present in this moment.
Yeah, yeah.
Matt Yehling (34:24):
Yeah, my technique is I stand up and walk out of
the office with them.
That's probably not the best.
I probably shouldn't tell thaton the podcast.
Tim Hast (34:33):
That's probably not the best.
I probably shouldn't tell thaton the podcast.
Matt Yehling (34:36):
You know, tim, what are some of the exercises
or techniques you know for us,but for the industry as well,
you know, to help be betterlisteners, to practice listening
better, to be to do the R, Iguess.
Tim Hast (34:50):
So what does a politician say?
He says I'm so glad you askedthat question, so I'm so glad
you asked that question becausemy issue with executives
remember, I'm an executive coachand I saw this number one
deficit that was across theboard was the inability to
really listen, and I thoughtI've got to come up with
(35:11):
something that they can remember.
So I came up with four thingsand here they are.
And I tell people write thesedown on a card.
I've got a little business card, I've got these printed on the
card and I tell people carry thecard around and every time you
have a conversation, remindyourself to do these four things
.
And if I were drawing a littlestick figure, I would point at
the foot and I would say listenpatiently, because when we're
(35:33):
impatient we tap our foot.
And then I would point anotherarrow at the little guy's body
and I would say listen with yourbody.
And then I would put an arrowat his throat and I would say
listen with your voice.
And then I would put a finalarrow at his head and say listen
with your mind.
Let's go deep, shall we?
Let's talk about the first onelisten patiently.
All of us suffer from adisorder that happens at birth,
(35:59):
when you're a week old and Greghas a lot of experience, but a
week old when the baby is a weekold and they're hungry.
What do they do?
They?
Greg Hamlin (36:07):
cry.
Tim Hast (36:07):
They cry and what happens?
You come feed them, you comefeed them.
These giant hands appear out ofnowhere and they pick the baby
up and come feed them.
These giant hands appear out ofnowhere and they pick the baby
up and they feed it.
And when a baby's a week oldand he or she is poopy, giant
hands appear out of nowhere andthey clean the little baby up
and they wrap it up.
And when a baby's a week oldand they're sleepy, those giant
(36:31):
hands show up.
All the baby has to do is cryand these giant hands show up.
And when you're a week old, theentire world revolves around
you.
All you have to do is makenoise and all of your deepest
needs are met.
And the problem is we get to be18 or 28 or 38 or 58 or 68 and
(36:53):
we never get away from thenotion that the world revolves
around me.
Now I asked this questionearlier.
Why in the world would I everthink about listening to you if
the world revolves around me?
Now, think about that.
And so we tend to make.
When someone's talking to me, Itend to be in a hurry.
(37:13):
Come on, hurry up and say whatyou're going to say so I can get
on down the road.
Or, as I'm listening to you,I'm thinking.
Well, I know the answer to thatquestion.
If you just shut up, I can tellyou and we can get this thing
fixed and get on down the road.
So we tend to listenimpatiently.
Listening impatiently islistening and forming a judgment
before we've heard the wholestory.
(37:34):
Listening impatiently isfiguring out a rebuttal in our
mind.
If people could read our mindwhile they're talking, we would
be in a world of hurt.
We would be in big troublebecause we're all thinking about
the golf game or what we'regoing to do tomorrow, or I'm
getting on a plane on Thursday.
We're all thinking aboutsomething else.
So listening patiently isturning the volume down on all
(37:58):
that and taking my foot off ofthe accelerator of life and
slowing down and walking downthe road of life with that
person.
It doesn't mean we have to dothat for three hours.
Sometimes three minutes ofpatient listening means the
world to the other person.
So the first thing I tellpeople to do is listen patiently
and when someone begins to talkto you, catch yourself in that
(38:18):
moment and say I'm going to letgo, I'm going to set my agenda
aside, I'm going to go with thisperson where they need to go.
The second thing I tell peopleis listen with your body.
You see, in communicationtheory, when we're really really
upset, when we're in fight orflight, only about 7% of our
(38:39):
speaking is words.
Then 38% of our speaking, orour communication, when we're
really upset, is the inflectionof the words oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
Every one of those ohs is thesame word but they mean
something completely different.
So 38% of the communication isinflection.
And then a whopping 55% of ourcommunication when we're really
(39:02):
upset, just when we're reallyupset is our body language.
So 7, 38, 55.
7% words, 38% inflection and awhopping 55% is body language.
That's how I communicate whenI'm really upset.
Well, I've turned that aroundand assumed that for us, when
(39:22):
I'm trying to listen to a personthat's upset, then I need to
pay a lot more attention to mybody language.
So if they're standing, I stand.
If they're sitting, I sit.
I want to sit at a 45 degreeangle so that my shoulders are
not squared.
I want to drop my hands.
If my hands are crossed, I wantto cross my hands.
If my legs are crossed, I wantto cross my legs and lean into
(39:44):
the conversation.
I want to keep within.
Before COVID-19, we said fourfeet, don't get closer than four
feet, don't get too muchfarther away than four feet.
There's kind of a magic area,and so I want to be conscious of
what my body is saying.
The bottom line is we want ourbody to say two things.
When we're listening.
The two things we want our bodyto say is I'm open to what you
(40:08):
have to say and you're safe withme.
Again, and you're working withcustomers over the phone, they
can't see your body, so thatrequires that you do the other
three a lot more.
But even when I'm listening andthey can't see my body, right
now with you guys, I'm leaninginto my microphone Because when
I assume a posture of openness,research indicates that I
(40:32):
actually hear about 28% more.
So I try to.
Even when people can't see mybody, I still try to hold my
arms in an open stance and openmy body up, because I'm wanting
to communicate two things thatyou're safe and I'm open to what
you have to say.
The third thing I tell people todo is listen with your voice,
(40:53):
and if you've gone to reflectivelistening or some kind of class
on communication, we all knowactive listening, but the
problem is we teach people.
I think I'm hearing, so I thinkyou're saying so.
It sounds to me like and thoseare all good, those are good
places to start, but I want youto get so good at listening that
you say that really botheredyou, you're really excited,
(41:16):
you're really upset that I oryou're not saying I think I hear
, because they know you hear.
You just make it short and makeit sweet to where they don't
even realize that you'rereflecting Human beings.
When you begin to reflect andreally hear them, they're not
even aware of what you're doing.
They're just feeling this senseof someone.
(41:36):
They're not even articulatingthe word someone is hearing me.
They're just sensing a freedomand a relief and a satisfaction
in the fact that they're heardand they're not even thinking oh
, he's hearing me.
So listening with your voice issomething that we tend to make
more of it than it really is.
(41:56):
When you guys leave thispodcast, when you walk out the
door and you have a conversationwith someone just as soon as
you get done from the podcast,remind yourself to listen with
your voice.
Listening with your voice islistening and restating a little
bit of what you hear the personsay You're real excited, you're
having a good time, you'rethinking about that hamburger in
(42:17):
Birmingham.
It really was a good hamburger.
That's kind of the theme today.
That's the third time I've saidhamburger.
Greg Hamlin (42:23):
It's like what's up with that?
I must be craving a hamburger.
No, that's great.
And I think the reflective partis really important, and I love
what you said about your body,in that we think that while
we're on the phone, people can'tsee us.
It won't matter, and it reallydoes.
I noticed so before I got intoclaims.
When I was still in college, Iwas doing non-for-profit
(42:45):
fundraising for the university,raising scholarships for
students, and I noticed on thedays that I was struggling like
I was really struggling toconnect with people.
If I just pushed my chair backand stood up, engaged more with
my body, I got better results.
And so there was something aboutjust it turned on some things
in my head, I guess, or my, myvoice.
(43:06):
You could hear that I had moreenergy, that I was more
connected and that I was moreengaged.
So I really do think there'ssomething to what you say about
even if you can't be next tosomebody, still how you sit
where you are, it matters.
Tim Hast (43:22):
What a great discovery you just winked out on me.
I'm making sure that I stillhave audio.
Greg Hamlin (43:26):
We're here, yes.
Tim Hast (43:27):
Good, good, good, Because it just went max
headroom for just a second.
So listen patiently with yourbody, listen with your voice and
finally, listen with your mind.
And listening with your mind issimply visualizing what the
person is telling you.
When you told me you had sixkids, I pictured them.
I could just see them, you know, like the stickers on the back
of minivans.
You know that has mommy anddaddy in the stair step.
(43:48):
I saw all six of the kids andit doesn't have to be a and it
can be a caricature.
In fact, the more colorful andthe more outlandish the picture
is, the more it will help youremember what the person is
saying and the beauty of when Ilisten with my mind.
If I want to listen with myvoice, all I have to do is kind
(44:08):
of look at the picture that I'vecreated in my mind and just
describe the picture and ithelps me listen with my voice.
So I tell people take these fourthings and every time you
anticipate that you're going tohave a conversation, if you've
written these things down,listen patiently with your body,
with your voice and with yourmind.
If you've written these fourthings down on a three by five
(44:30):
card or the back of a businesscard, if, when you're
approaching that meeting, you'rereminding yourself okay, I'm
going to meet with Jacob and I'mgoing to remind myself to
listen patiently.
I'm not going to make it allabout me.
I'm going to listen with mybody, I'm going to make sure
that I'm open, I'm going to domy best to hear what he's saying
and reflect back the emotionthat he's feeling, and then I'm
(44:51):
going to just do my very best topicture what he's saying.
That's hard work.
You need to know that when youlisten, and really listen, when
you engage in our listening,active, reflective, empathic
listening you're going to betired at the end of the day
because it is hard work, but,folks, the dividends are so
(45:11):
great that it's worth all theeffort.
I got to tell you.
Matt Yehling (45:15):
That's why I know your meeting last night was
effective, Tim, because you camehome when you were exhausted.
Greg Hamlin (45:24):
I think that's a great place to kind of tie
things up is just at one.
It's something we have topractice all the time and it's
not something you arrive at andthere are days that you're not
going to be your best, but it'sjust continuing to work at it
and when we do that, the resultsreally they're there, Tim, as
we wrap things up, if peoplewant to connect with you, either
(45:45):
to get your book I know I foundit on Amazon, so I assume they
can find it there like I did.
Yes, but if they were interestedin your executive coaching or
some of the trainings you do,whether that's DISC or some of
the other types of trainingsthat you do, how do they find
you too?
Tim Hast (46:01):
The world's easiest email address.
I'm at coach at attnet that'sC-O-A-C-H at sign A-T-T dot net
and I'd love to hear from you.
That's excellent.
Greg Hamlin (46:15):
Excellent.
Well, one of the things thatwe're doing this season because
it's really important to me thatwe put good stuff out in the
universe.
There's so much negativity, andso one of the commitments that
I've made when we did thepodcast after we got through the
first season is I wanted to endon something that just put some
of that good stuff back outthere.
And I'd like to ask you thisfinal question what's something
(46:38):
you're grateful for?
Tim Hast (46:40):
What am I grateful for ?
I'm grateful for people whoforgive me.
Greg Hamlin (46:45):
I love that, you know, and I think we all
probably could do a better jobof forgiving each other of our
weak spots.
Matt Yehling (47:01):
So what a great what a great way to end.
Thanks Tim, Thanks Greg.
This has been great.
We get to do these things andit's a lot of fun.
I always learn so much and thisone's been really special.
I think it speaks to me, youknow, in a management position,
I think it.
Hopefully it speaks to thoseout there listening to this,
adjusters, or wherever you arein the whole workers comp
(47:23):
process.
You know, I think we can all bebetter listeners, better
communicators.
So thank you very much.
I mean halt and R.
I'm going to remember that Itook copious amounts of notes
this is great.
Thank you very much.
Tim Hast (47:36):
Well, it's been a pleasure on my part and I try to
listen.
Well, but I'm an eye on thedisc so I like to talk too.
So anytime you guys want to doa podcast, give me a call and
we'll talk about hamburgers oreffective listening or effective
speaking or whatever you wantto talk about.
So thank you for your time.
Greg Hamlin (47:55):
That sounds fantastic.
Thanks again, tim, and I'lljust remind all of our listeners
our motto to do right, thinkdifferently and don't forget to
care.
And that's it for this week,guys, and we will see you every
two weeks as we release on ourregular schedule.
Thanks again, thank you.
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