August 4, 2025 • 51 mins
What happens in your brain after a workplace injury? When physical pain meets anxiety, sleep disruption, and the stress of uncertain recovery, it can trigger a neurological downward spiral that feels impossible to escape. But neuroscience offers powerful insights into breaking this cycle.
In this fascinating conversation with Dr. Alex Korb, neuroscientist, anxiety coach at UCLA, and author of "The Upward Spiral," we explore the brain circuits that drive our emotional responses to injury and the science-backed strategies that can reverse negative patterns. Dr. Korb explains how our brains create habitual responses to stress and why self-criticism—a strategy that may have served us well throughout our careers—often becomes our biggest obstacle during recovery.
You'll discover why acknowledging emotions is crucial (hint: ignored feelings don't disappear, they manifest physically), how setting tiny goals creates dramatic chemical changes in the brain, and why your emotional sensitivity might actually be your greatest strength. Dr. Korb uses the brilliant analogy of a Ferrari versus a Camry to illustrate why your emotionally responsive brain isn't broken—it just needs different handling techniques.
For workers' compensation professionals, this episode offers invaluable insights into supporting injured workers through both physical and emotional recovery. For anyone struggling with anxiety, pain, or setbacks, Dr. Korb provides practical, accessible strategies drawn from cutting-edge neuroscience that can help transform recovery from a downward spiral into an upward one. The journey begins with understanding that your brain's response makes perfect sense—and small changes can create remarkable results.
Season 9 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin and guest co-host Matt Yehling, Directory of Claims at Midwest Employers Casualty.
Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
Got questions? Send them to marketing@berkleyindustrial.com
For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at camrunyan9@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg Hamlin (00:11):
Hello everyone and welcome to Adjusted.
I'm your host, greg Hamlin,coming at you, as always, from
beautiful Birmingham, alabama,where it's a little bit too hot.
I think we've reached the pointthat my northern blood can
handle, so if you're down here,just watch out, stay inside or
get in the water.
That's pretty hot.
I think we've been hittingclose to 100 every day now with
(00:34):
humidity.
That's pretty intense.
So, anyway, I'm excited toshare this rebroadcast with you.
This is one of the rebroadcaststhat I've probably thought about
the most over the last coupleyears, and it was an episode I
did with Alex Korb, who'sactually a behavioral researcher
and wrote the book the UpwardSpiral, and I found it
(00:57):
fascinating, especially as wethink about our injured workers
and we want to believe thattheir physical injuries are very
separate from their probablystress, anxiety, all the other
things that they're dealing within their life, when really
those things, when we look atthem holistically, impact each
other pretty closely.
So anyhow, I hope you enjoythis as much as I did.
(01:17):
I found this fascinating.
I've thought about it a lotsince then and I do love that.
Alex says that I'm driving.
I think he said a Ferrari, soI'm not, but comparing my
personality.
So, anyway, very fun episode.
Hope you enjoy it as much as Ido.
And, as always, remember, doright, think differently and
don't forget to care.
Welcome to Adjusted.
(01:38):
I'm your host, greg Hamlin,coming at you from beautiful
Birmingham, alabama, and with meis my co-host for the day, matt
Yaling.
Matt, do you want to introduceyourself for everyone?
Matthew Yehling (01:48):
Hello, this is Matthew Yaling, with Midwest
Employers Casualty.
I'm joining you from St Louis,missouri, along the banks of the
mighty Mississippi.
Greg Hamlin (01:57):
Always glad to have you, matt.
We've done a number of theseand definitely excited for this
guest we have with us today, drAlex Korb, phd in
neuroscientists and author ofthe book Upward Spiral.
Alex, if you want to introduceyourself to our guests, that'd
be awesome.
Alex Korb (02:14):
Hi.
Yeah, I'm a neuroscientist andanxiety coach as well.
I teach at UCLA and in mycoaching practice I help smart,
purpose-driven professionals getpast unnecessary anxiety and
mood issues.
But yeah, I'm excited to talkwith you today about
(02:38):
neuroscience.
And I'm right, by the banks ofthe not-so-mighty LA River, Is
there any water in that?
There's a, there's a trickle,Although I'm told I read an
article that when the LA riveris full at max capacity, it's so
efficient at getting water outthat it actually can carry as
much water as the Mississippiansat St Louis right.
Matthew Yehling (03:02):
So hopefully you get to see that soon enough,
right.
Alex Korb (03:05):
Yeah, I, we like we had the atmospheric river, so it
was.
It was impressive to see thewater flowing at 20 miles an
hour.
But you may, that's probablyanother another podcast, yeah.
Matthew Yehling (03:18):
Yeah, we're.
We're excited to have youbecause we talk about and nerd
out on workers' comp issues allthe time and we talked a little
before we started recordingabout why we would have you on
this podcast.
And with injured employeesthere's so much that goes on
(03:41):
right before the injury, afterthe injury and the recovery and
we're interested in gettingpeople the best outcome, the
best result and getting themback to a functional lifespan.
So having you and hearing alittle about the neuroscience of
anxiety and stress anddepression and all that, and
then the eight steps you'veoutlined in your book of how to
overcome that so I'm excited.
It's kind of good to geek outon a different topic than our
(04:03):
typical workers' compensationtype topics, but this really, I
believe, impacts our injuredemployee population and I'm
excited to have thisconversation.
Greg Hamlin (04:13):
I couldn't agree more, Matt.
I feel very much the same wayWith so many of our injured
workers.
They're going through somethingreally hard and when they go
through something really hardlike that, we tend to focus on
the physical side of what'swrong and what we need to do to
help them recover.
But there certainly is a lot ofanxiety that is attached to not
being able to go back to yourwork, trying to worry about how
(04:35):
you're going to pay your bills,thinking about, if you were
really hurt, what your lifemight look like afterwards.
So all of those things I thinkwe both have seen really lead
and impact how people recover.
So this is going to be a funone.
Normally, Alex, we ask peoplehow they got into the insurance
industry.
You're actually on a differentpath, but I would really love to
(04:58):
know, like when you were young,in kindergarten for career day,
did you like show up and say Iam going to be a neuroscientist?
Alex Korb (05:06):
Uh, no, I think my childhood dream was to be a
writer.
And it's funny now because thenI did neuroscience and people
and then I wrote a book aboutneuroscience.
So that was like it's soobvious.
Like you, you did thatintentionally and I was like, no
, I like always liked writingand but I also always like
(05:26):
science and like understandingthings, but they're just like
two separate things.
And then, like it wasn't untilafter getting a PhD, I was like
maybe I should like write aboutthe neuroscience stuff that I
think is interesting.
But yeah, I've always beenfascinated by science and I
(05:47):
think I'm someone who, you know,is maybe more on the anxious
side of things, or rather, I wasa lot more anxious when I was a
kid though I wouldn't havedescribed it that way, I would
have said, oh, no, like I justget a lot of, you know, stomach
aches.
And in learning aboutneuroscience, I started to see
(06:11):
like, oh, like the things thatyou're thinking about and like
what is happening in your brainaffects what's happening in your
body and your pain and yourdigestion, and that was just
fascinating and I wanted tolearn more about it and I felt
like the more I learned about it, the more I understood just
(06:32):
about myself and what are thelittle things you can change to
be happier and more productiveand what are the things that you
can't really change, because itjust is part of having a human
brain.
So I've always been reallyinspired by that.
Matthew Yehling (06:49):
That's great.
And I you know the bookobviously we we've referenced.
It's called the upward spiral.
Wrote it a couple of years ago.
Yeah, it really gives you apath out.
Right, you know from thedownward spiral, but you know to
to start off, like how does thebrain get in that downward
spiral and then transition.
Know to to start off, like howdoes the brain get in that
downward spiral and thentransition to the other way?
Alex Korb (07:09):
So yeah, to the that's actually, I think, the
most important place to start islike well, yeah, why is this
happen in the first place?
Because a lot of times, whenpeople are stuck in anxiety or
depression, part of the issue isthat like but this doesn't make
any sense.
And one of the first steps islike no, it actually makes
(07:31):
perfect sense based on how thebrain works.
So your brain is full of all ofthese different circuits that
evolved at different times fordifferent goals.
You have habit circuit and aworry circuit and imagination
(07:53):
circuit and decision-makingcircuit, and the function of
each one is kind of differs fromperson to person, just like any
other traits.
Some people are taller, somepeople are shorter.
So some people, you know, worrymore, some people worry less.
And one of the crucial things tounderstand is that there's
nothing inherently better orworse about the activity of any
(08:20):
particular circuit, just likethere's nothing inherently worse
about being shorter.
Right, it might make it harderto dunk a basketball.
Does that mean you can't be agood basketball player?
Like no, it just means maybestop trying to dunk it and work
on your three-pointer, yourpassing or whatever.
And so there are certain partsof our biology that like yeah,
(08:45):
that we can't change, but it'snot any given feature, it's like
how they all function togetherand the reason why downward
spirals happen is because thethings that happen to us, or the
thoughts that pop into our head, cause changes in the activity
and chemistry of the brain and,based on your brain's particular
(09:11):
sensitivities, well then thatcan cause the worrying circuit
to, like, trigger the habitcircuit.
And if you have good habitsprogrammed in, well then that's
not a problem, it just resets.
But like, oh, if the worryingcircuit activates the habit
circuit, which causes you to bemore indecisive and give you
more to worry about, and thatincreases your anxiety because
(09:34):
you're focusing on the thingsyou can't control, and then you,
whatever, like it all starts toand you stop sleeping and you
stop exercising and it allstarts to snowball out of
control and it feels liketotally random, but it's
actually like no, these arebrain processes, some of which
you have control over and someof which you don't.
(09:56):
It's just, ah, like the piecesyou have control over.
Well, those are the things youshould do something about and I
I sort of like to describe like,you know, the weather is the
weather, but you can use yourknowledge of a weather to decide
oh, do I need an umbrella tolike plan a trip or whatever?
(10:18):
And the same is true of thehuman brain, that the brain is
this dynamic system that,because of how it's wired like,
gets caught in these spirals andloops sometimes, but you can
use the knowledge of that toactually create, you know, a
spiral in the other direction.
Greg Hamlin (10:36):
I love what you said there, and when I read the
book, I think the thing thatreally stood out to me in this
beginning part was just how,when people start to feel these
things, they start to cascadewhere perhaps maybe they're
feeling depressed or they'refeeling anxious and so they
don't want to get out of bed.
Right, because they're notgetting out of bed Now, they're
not exercising, and those thingsthen, instead of getting better
(10:59):
, they're actually compoundingon each other.
If the behaviors that we havewhen we feel those things work
that way, it can get a whole lotworse.
You did a really good job inthe book of explaining how the
brain works on that and Idefinitely am not a PhD, I'm a
criminal justice major, so I'mgoing to leave that to you but I
thought maybe for our listeners, you could talk a little bit
(11:22):
about, like, how do thedifferent parts of the brain
work that causes these spirals?
Alex Korb (11:26):
Yeah, you know, it's really a like, a problem with
how the thinking and the feelingand circuits in the brain are
communicating with andregulating each other.
And we can get technical, likeI, you know I like to be nerdy
like, oh well, you're talkingabout the prefrontal cortex and
the limbic system, whichcontains the hippocampus and the
(11:47):
amygdala, and how thosecommunicate with the dorsal
striatum, like, but what'sactually most important is to
just not memorize the names ofthese things, but just recognize
how they function and, based onknow, some people have action
circuits that are, you know,more impulsive than others.
(12:09):
Some people like more routinethan others.
Some people's emotionalcircuitry is more reactive than
others, and a lot of times wecan look at how our brains are
and be like, oh, that's whereall my problems are, like if I
just wasn't so emotional, then Iwouldn't, that wouldn't trigger
these habits and whatever.
But like there's nothinginherently worse about having a
(12:30):
brain that is more emotional.
It actually makes it.
You know you'll be able toexperience more joy and like
connection with people and alsoyour emotions are telling you
about things that are importantto you.
So you might look at someoneelse who's less than emotional
(12:50):
and like, wow, that person.
They can just trudge along intheir boring life and it doesn't
affect them.
It's like, yeah, you should beaffected sometimes by things
that are important.
It's just that some of thosethings you can't do anything
about.
So stop increasing thereactivity of your emotional
circuitry by focusing on them.
(13:12):
Instead, just reframe or acceptthem.
But other things you shouldtake action on and you can thank
your emotional brain Like, oh,thank you so much for letting me
know and I should do somethingabout that.
But it's crucial to know, like,well, what are the things you
can change about your brain andwhat you can't.
Matthew Yehling (13:33):
So when we're dealing with an injured worker
that's just had an injury, gregoutlined the compound effect and
you outlined that in your book.
You even referenced like, evenfor you, like writing by
yourself takes you away andmakes you actually stressful, so
you go out and you write itcoffee shop, but you said, you
know, so you're like being awareof that.
So like when you're thrown intoa situation, maybe like a car
(13:56):
accident or a worker'scompensation injury or something
that's totally out of the blue,we see different responses.
Right, no, two people areexactly the same but we see
different responses fromdifferent people and some people
, you know, emerge from thatsimilar injuries with two very
different outcomes.
Right, some people get stuck andyou talk about getting stuck in
the book, but and then somepeople emerge, you know, and
(14:18):
they're back to work and they'reproductive and you know they go
on.
So it's like we're trying tofocus like on the stuck.
So we're stuck here.
We have, we just got injured,we have this history, we have,
you know, maybe some genes thatpreclude us having a poor
recovery, or experiences orstresses and social you know,
poor social support or or luck,like you, you know, even called
(14:39):
that out, you know, so.
So all that evolution of itemsand everything.
So how would you like, howwould you?
You know, if you were talkingto somebody and they were like,
hey, I had this, all thishappened, I feel like crap, you
know, I'm I'm stuck, I'mdepressed.
You know what would you tellsomebody?
Alex Korb (14:56):
you know, in that situation, yeah, Well, one of
the first, most important thingsis to acknowledge your emotions
.
Things is to acknowledge youremotions Because sometimes, like
smart people can get in thishabit of like oh well, I'm
logical, I should be able tothink through this and and
whatever.
And like, yeah, logic is areally useful tool that the
(15:18):
human brain evolved, but it'sbuilt on top of all these other
parts of the brain andparticularly for certain things
like happiness, that isinherently emotional.
You can't entirely logic yourway to it, and so what happens a
lot of times is people ignoretheir emotions because they
(15:40):
think they're not relevant.
And your brain is trying totell you like hey, buddy, this
is important and you're ignoringit.
And then your brain sometimesit's like okay, fine, like, if
you're not gonna pay attentionto me, I'm gonna stop telling
you about your emotions, I'mjust gonna.
You're gonna start havingmigraines or headaches or
chronic pain.
Like, our emotions don't goaway simply because you ignore
(16:04):
them, and one of the mostpowerful things to do is to
acknowledge your emotions andthat you have many emotions.
I'm angry at myself for themistakes I've made.
I'm frustrated at how long thisis taking.
I'm worried where this is goingto go.
I'm excited that this might getbetter.
I'm grateful for the progress.
(16:25):
Like we have many emotions andso a lot of times we ignore all
of them or we try and say no.
But what's the one emotion I'mfeeling?
Am I feeling good or am Ifeeling bad?
And like that's like a cheftrying to get better at cooking
and be like does this taste good?
Does it taste bad?
No, like you need some nuance.
Like, oh, is this too salty?
Is it too sweet?
Like understand your ownemotional depth.
(16:48):
So this awareness is the firstpiece.
The second piece is validatingyour own emotional experience.
Like oh, it makes total sensewhy I'm frustrated and depressed
.
I normally go into work everyday and I enjoy talking with my
coworkers and being productive,but I know, oh, now I can't do
(17:10):
any of that.
Like, therefore, my currentemotional reaction makes sense.
And what?
But what often happens ifpeople start to gain a little
emotional awareness?
They then trigger a habit ofself-criticism Like you, idiot,
why can't you just do thisnormally?
You used to be able to do itInstead of realizing, like right
, your injury may have takenaway things from your life that
(17:35):
were very important to yourwell-being, and getting mad at
yourself for that doesn't help,that, like, you still don't have
those things.
And now you also have to be madat yourself.
Again, this is people.
I don't want to blame people,though, because, like, sometimes
(17:56):
people are like, oh yeah, Ijust need to stop being mad at
myself.
It's like, no, perfectlyunderstandable why you are mad
at yourself, and this isn't tosay that you couldn't are mad at
yourself, and this isn't to saythat you couldn't be mad at
yourself.
It's that, oh, you are mad atyourself and that's okay and you
are grateful, and so ourpositive emotions and our
(18:18):
negative emotions, like, don'thave to do this cosmic battle
against each other.
Whereas am I grateful and thisis where people often get stuck
Like, well, I should be moregrateful that it wasn't worse
and that I have all these, mywife and all these other
wonderful things.
Like, okay, well, you probablyare grateful for those things.
That doesn't invalidate youremotions and your negative
(18:41):
experience, and that's one ofthe reasons why I love talking
about the neuroscience, becauseit helps you realize, like, oh,
these things you're experiencing, like, yeah, that's a normal
part of being human when youcome disconnected from your
normal support network or youaren't able to accomplish as
much as you could before.
(19:01):
Like, yeah, it's totally normaland understandable to have
these feelings and, on top ofthat, you may be having these
unhelpful habits or ways ofthinking about it that are
making it worse or moredifficult than it needs to be.
That doesn't mean it is all inyour head.
(19:22):
The other reason I like talkingabout neuroscience is because
it takes away some of the stigmaabout it.
Like is nothing wrong with you.
Like this is just.
Oh, these brain circuits arefunctioning in this particular
way and like.
My favorite analogy for that Idescribe in the book is with a
microphone and a speaker.
Like, if the volume on thespeaker is turned up a little
(19:45):
too high, oh, maybe someonebumped the speaker and the
volume knob went up.
Now your normal singing leadsto this screeching feedback.
But there's not somethingbroken or wrong about the
microphone and nothing brokenabout the speaker.
They're working exactly asthey're supposed to.
(20:05):
Just, the problem arises basedon, like, the tuning.
And it doesn't mean you need toask stupid microphone like, no,
well, you just turn down thevolume on the speaker just a
tiny bit or maybe realize, ah,like, I just need to stop
shouting into it and yeah, likethat.
(20:26):
Hopefully some of that ishelpful to realize, like what is
going on.
Matthew Yehling (20:31):
I think it's really helpful.
I mean, especially like if I'mthe adjuster talking to an
injured employee.
I think understanding some ofthat and realizing you know the
situation, the injured employeesequally is important, right,
like to help somebody throughthis situation.
The adjuster is really the onesyou know, working with the
injured employee day to day andhaving them understand, like how
the injured employee andunderstand, like what they're
(20:52):
processing and what they'rethinking about you know that's
very critical.
Alex Korb (20:56):
And I just I should add one thing is that,
particularly when your audienceis, you know more adjusters who
are talking to these people, oneof the wrong ways to go about
it it's to be like, ah, I knowall these things you should do,
you should exercise more, youshould do these things, and like
, no, this is about, oh,understanding and gaining
(21:17):
insight for yourself.
And so, if you're talking aboutsomeone else, oh, these are
reasons to have more compassionfor the other person, for why
it's so difficult.
And this is why I wanted totalk about the neuroscience so
much in the book, because myeditor was like, stop talking so
much about the brain, just tellpeople, like, what can you do?
(21:38):
What can you do Like well, thefirst thing is to start out with
like understanding, like, oh,it makes sense why I'm in this
situation.
And so if you are talking tosomeone else, they are probably
jumping past the part ofawareness and validation and
they're trying to like, oh, I'mtrying to do this and I'm trying
to do this and I'm going to getthem right, and like, you can
(22:01):
help them with that process.
But usually it starts with likehelping them realize that it's
not their fault to help themtalk about their emotions, like,
oh, that must be reallyfrustrating that the doctor is
telling you there's nothingwrong with you, but you know
you're in pain.
But the way you interact withsomeone, you can get them to
become aware of their emotionsand then you can help them
(22:23):
validate their emotions, whichare often the first step,
instead of just saying, hey, youshould do this and this.
If they ask you, hey, what doyou think I could do?
Oh, then that's a totallydifferent thing.
But just don't start withtelling them, because that's
what everyone's already doing.
Greg Hamlin (22:39):
That's really important, I think, to really
start right where you're talkingabout validating how injured
workers feel.
One of the things we didrecently the letters we used to
send out when someone was hurtsounded like an attorney drafted
them and we went back and werestarted that and now they
start with we understand you'vebeen hurt in an injury at work
and being hurt is hard, and sowe just start out acknowledging
(23:02):
from the very beginning and Ithink that this is something
that in general in the industrywe can do a better job of
showing some empathy becausepeople are going through
something really challenging.
There's a pain coach I'veworked with before and she's
told me the story.
You know, normally by the timethey go to a program like hers,
they've been through so manydifferent things and a lot of
(23:24):
times they're stuck in like theback room of their mother's
house and they're not evengetting out.
And you know she was telling mesome of the things she starts
with is just simple goals thatthey have, and one of them was
to get I can't remember if itwas get a t-shirt that had I
can't remember what theirfavorite band was and like go
(23:45):
into the living room and listento it.
It wasn't even anything thatyou would think would be like a
great accomplishment, but it waslike these slow steps were
helping that person really.
Just start to to do some of thethings you talk about in
positive ways rather than focuson, you know, all the things
that have gone wrong over thelast three years.
(24:06):
So I think the acknowledgementpart is really important.
And then, once we get there,what are some of the things
either personally we can do inour own lives, or things that if
you were going through this,you could do if you're one of
our NGO workers, that would help.
Alex Korb (24:25):
Yeah, really helpful, which is to make small changes
or set small goals, becausesometimes we ignore our small
goals, Like, yeah, but yeah, Ican put on a t-shirt, but like
what I really want to do is getback to work, but like you can't
accomplish the big goal.
So therefore, you just stressyourself out and do nothing,
(24:46):
instead of like, well, itdoesn't matter if you're, if the
big goal is more important ifyou can't do it.
So focus on these small changes.
I mean the book, even in thesubtitles, like small changes
and also that's importantbecause, like big changes, any
big change in your life, whetherit is an injury or winning the
(25:09):
lottery, like any big changecauses stress.
And so when you try and make abig change, you already have a
big change, but you're trying tomake a whole bunch of big
changes in your life.
While I'm trying to do this andthis and this and this and this
, well then your brain is gonnaresist.
So if you just start small, itmakes it feel more achievable
but you also don't add morestress.
(25:31):
So setting small goals that aremoving you in the right
direction are infinitely betterfor you than these big, huge
goals that you can't actually door can't make progress on.
Other simple steps involve Imean along those same lines are
(25:52):
like physical activity A lot oftimes and I use the word
physical activity instead ofexercise for a reason because
exercise has all these negativeconnotations of like things that
you have to do that areunpleasant, and it forces people
to often think about all thethings they can't do or how
(26:12):
unpleasant it is.
So they'll.
You know I'm in pain, I can'texercise.
We don't need to exercise, justmove your body some.
So if you're on the couch andthat's where you're at every day
, okay, don't think about liketrying to run a marathon, just
like, okay, get up off the couchand walk around the block once,
(26:33):
and if that's all you can dofor a week, great, that's way
better than sitting on the couchthe entire day, and you also
don't have to make that decisionall at once.
All you need to do is get upand put on your shoes and walk
outside.
You don't have to say, youdon't have to force yourself to
exercise, but by changing yourenvironment.
(26:54):
Now you're wearing your shoesand you're standing outside.
Well, if you really want it,you could go back inside to the
couch, or well, you're alreadyhere, you might as well walk.
And that's why sometimes we'relike, well, you're sitting on a
couch and we're trying to workout the motivation to exercise,
instead of making just likelittle, small change in our
(27:14):
environment.
So that's, those are just a fewplaces to start, and I should,
by the way, I should add, likeeven any little life change that
you make has many effectsbecause, like going on, that
little walk around the blockaccomplishes many things.
One, some physical activitywhich impacts the dopamine
system, the serotonin system.
(27:34):
Two, it's a small goal that youset for yourself, that you can
do, and that also increasesmotivation and releases dopamine
.
Three, now you're getting somesunlight, which also changes
your brain's clock and improvessleep quality and improves sleep
quality, reduces pain.
So that you know, tomorrow youmaybe have a little bit more
(27:57):
energy because you're morerested.
And so, like we often don'tmake these small changes because
we're like, well, that's notgoing to fix everything and it's
like, yeah, but if you justmake one little change, that'll
probably have these otherunintended, you know other add
on effects and that'll changeyour brain and then it'll make
it a little bit easier tomorrow.
Matthew Yehling (28:18):
And now you've got better sleep.
Now you have a better habit,you know you get into the
biofeedback and you feel better.
Alex Korb (28:26):
Once you, because, like people, they want to often
like, jump forward in theprocess.
Like, like it's any athleticskill?
Like I don't want to practicefree throws, I just want to be a
great free throw shooter.
Well, how do you get there?
Well, you, you don't start outthere.
I mean, it's okay to miss abunch of free throws, nothing
wrong with that.
Like, just keep going.
(28:47):
Every single time you do it,you're building that pathway.
Like, just keep going.
Every single time you do it,you're building that pathway.
So when people are trying tochange their habits like I'm
(29:08):
trying to build a habit of, youknow, getting at physical, yet a
habit you just have to do itand most of the time you'll
forget about, okay, and then,but anytime you remember I was
like, all right, I'm just goingto keep doing that.
And then each time you do it,you start to strengthen those
connections, which makes iteasier in the future.
This is just how the brainworks, and realizing that that's
(29:32):
a process that takes time tobecome automatic is helpful.
Just like if you were growing aplant and someone's like hey,
plants need water and fertilizer, and you're like okay, great,
so I put my water and myfertilizer and I come back the
next day and stupid plant hasn'tgrown yet.
Well, that's the point, I'm notgoing to stop, I'm going to
(29:52):
stop watering it and it's like,ah, okay, like, yes, that's a
necessary component, but like italso takes time.
And so you just need to imaginethat you're tending your brain
like a plant.
It's not going to haveimmediate results.
Or even like going to the gymright, I want to, I want to look
(30:12):
like the rock, I want to bulkup, okay, well, the first few
days you go to the gym, youprobably don't look any
different and you feel sore andyou feel worse.
But knowing the how the biologyworks Well, if I keep doing
that, then I'll feel better,I'll look better works.
Well, if I keep doing that,then I'll feel better, I'll look
(30:33):
better.
Whatever.
Like it's easier when we'retalking about biology that we
can see.
It's harder when we're talkingabout things that we can't see
and because they're so abstract.
And that's why I find it sohelpful to talk about the
neuroscience, because it makesit concrete, like wow, I didn't
feel amazing after exercisingtoday, but I know that it's
(30:56):
having these effects on my brain, just like water and fertilizer
, so I'm going to keep doing it,and then we start to see
results.
Matthew Yehling (31:07):
Does that also help with?
So we're talking about lossprevention a lot in insurance
too.
So if I think about, like myloss prevention hat, if I have
these good behaviors, when thenext disruption occurs, you know
, the next time I sprain myankle is the recovery faster or
is the disruption less?
I've built these good.
You know these habits, thesegood mechanisms to kind of, you
(31:28):
know, get me to a good baseline.
Or even you know these habits,these good mechanisms to kind of
, you know, get me to a goodbaseline.
Or even you know, out of thatmy spiral is going up.
You know, maybe I'm not at thetop of the spiral, we're
probably never at the top right,but we have injured employees
or loss prevention activitiesthat kind of get us a better
baseline.
You know I'm thinking thedisruption doesn't sink me down,
(31:48):
my spiral doesn't go down asfar.
I don't know.
Is there any science to thatyeah, no, absolutely.
Alex Korb (31:54):
And some of the a lot of things we're talking about
are physical habits like yourexercise habits and your sleep
habits and those.
If you're consistent aboutthose then, yeah, it's less
likely it'll get stuck in adownward spiral.
But one of the most importanthabits to get a handle on is
(32:15):
self-criticism, because normallywhat happens for a lot of
successful people, if you got towhere you are in some sense
because you were critical ofyourself, like in high school
you slacked off a little bit andyou're like you idiot, you need
to focus and like do better onthe test and that helped because
(32:35):
you know you're smart andtalented and motivated and you
just need a little kick in thebutt to accomplish this thing.
But it's also because thechallenge you were facing wasn't
insurmountable and so a littleself-criticism was helpful and
we often retain that habit overtime.
(32:55):
But now you're experiencing asituation where trying harder
isn't necessarily helpful or youdon't have full control over
the situation, which createsstress, and stress prompts us to
do our old habits.
And now this habit ofself-criticism that like maybe
(33:16):
was helpful or at least wasn't aproblem for most of your life,
now it's creating depression anddemotivation and increased pain
and all of this stuff.
And if you can reprogram thathabit of self-criticism, then
absolutely you become moreresilient to getting caught in
(33:40):
these downward spirals in thefirst place.
But that's hard to do.
But a lot of the first step isrealizing, oh, but it's useful,
and starts with mindfulness.
And then what you start to dois, instead of trying to stop
your habit of criticizingyourself, you just instead try
to create a new habit ofcompassion.
Greg Hamlin (34:00):
I think that's great and I think you're really
hitting on something withself-awareness.
I think a lot of times theexample I give is there's been
times I've driven to work and Idon't even remember really
getting in my car.
I got halfway there and it'sbecause I go that same route
every day.
I know exactly what I'm doing.
I can be half asleep and I'llshow up at my office and I'll be
(34:21):
there, and I think I've gonedown that path so many times and
it's such a habit that I don'teven think about it.
Alex Korb (34:29):
Watch out Birmingham.
Greg Hamlin (34:32):
Yeah right, I have not been an accident, so good
news on that.
But I think sometimes when westart talking about whether it's
anxiety or depression, it'sreally easy, if we have the
habits that are taking us in adownward spiral, to almost be
like that drive to work.
It's like you just start goingdown that path because you've
driven that path so many timesthat it's thinking of ways to
(34:55):
redirect yourself, withoutgetting mad at yourself, but
knowing that you're on that path.
Alex Korb (35:01):
Right.
Greg Hamlin (35:02):
Yeah, one of the things you talked about in your
book that I loved was just theimportance of gratitude.
Right yeah, depression, how doyou fit that in, or how do you?
What are some thoughts on howto work through that so that you
(35:28):
get the benefits that come withthe gratitude?
Alex Korb (35:31):
Yeah, well it's.
It's obviously wonderful whenwe're like overcome with these
like feelings of gratitude, butunfortunately that's what people
focus on too much.
That you know, don't?
I don't feel grateful at themoment and they think that their
goal is they need to change howthey feel, that I should feel
(35:53):
more grateful.
Look at all these wonderfulthings in my life.
I should feel more grateful.
But that's not helpful, becausehowever you feel is how you
feel, and if now you'recriticizing yourself for how you
feel, well, that's not going tosuddenly make you more grateful
.
Just like my height, I might befrustrated that I can't dunk a
(36:13):
basketball.
Okay, well, like my height iswhat it is Like.
Can I get better at jumping?
Maybe I can.
Like.
If maybe I can't get goodenough, I should then start
focusing on passing or dribblingor defense or teamwork or
whatever.
The challenge I think a lot oftimes also is that we just think
you're black or white, Like wethink we have just one emotion
(36:36):
and a lot of times you have alot of frustration and negative
emotions that are obscuring yourawareness of the gratitude that
you already have.
So a lot of times you aregrateful, you're just not aware
of it.
Just like you know, if you havea messy desk, like well, your
(36:57):
paper is here somewhere, youjust can't see it, but the
process of looking for it isreally helpful, it's much more
likely that you will find it.
So, when it comes to likewonderful things in your life, a
lot of people like, well, youknow, yeah, I have a house and a
nice, you know, and kids, andlike I don't, I should feel more
(37:18):
grateful.
Well, no, you actually aregrateful for those things.
Like, do you like that you haverunning water?
If someone asked you about it,you'd be like, yes, I'm glad I
have running water.
Great, that's the first step.
Like yeah, it's not going tooverwhelm you with feelings of
gratitude, unless you know youwere just in a storm.
(37:39):
The water got shut off forthree days.
We're like, oh, now we haverunning water.
Oh, awesome.
Your brain quickly habituate towhatever your circumstances are
and that's why it's very easy totake for granted all these
wonderful things in our life.
They don't automaticallytrigger emotions, but your goal
is just to direct your attentionto what those things are.
(38:02):
Your brain's not going toautomatically do it for you.
So you can just think, oh, am Iglad I have running water.
Yeah, I am really glad it'sokay that it doesn't change my
feelings.
But the more that I become awareand focus on all of these
things that I am grateful fornow, suddenly they become a
bigger part of my awareness andthese negative emotions don't
(38:26):
quite seem so unmanageable.
But people also get in theirway because they're trying to
figure out well, what's the onething that I'm feeling?
Am I angry that this happenedor am I grateful that it's not
worse?
You are both of those things.
If the anger helps you takeaction to you know, speak up to
(38:47):
management or suicide orwhatever great, it's good.
If you're angry, if thegratitude helps you enjoy your
life and appreciate the thingsyou have, then great, that's
good, you're grateful.
But like you don't need to havethose things, do battle against
each other and it almost alwaysbecomes a problem when we start
using the word should like geta more nuanced and complex
(39:12):
understanding of all the thingsthat you are feeling.
Matthew Yehling (39:16):
So I tell my kids in the morning and maybe
I'm doing it wrong, but I say ifyou act enthusiastic, you will
feel enthusiastic, right.
And I have a friend that kindof says that.
So I kind of picked it up fromhim and I said you know, there's
some truth here.
Like you act enthusiastic, youwill feel enthusiastic and you
know it's said otherwise, right,like almost fake it till you
make it.
Is there, you know, is therebiological, is there like
(39:37):
neurological truth to that?
Alex Korb (39:40):
Yes, there is biological truth to that being
helpful and that being a problem.
So the reason why I fake ittill you make it is helpful is,
like you know, I don't feel likeexercising.
Okay Well, if I felt likeexercising, like what would I do
(40:01):
?
I'd probably, ah well.
So then you start changing youractions.
You don't let the fact thatyou're feeling a certain way
dictate all of your actions.
I don't really feel like beingsocial, so then I isolate myself
and I don't feel so.
Then we you know it's the, theemotions trigger our actions and
and send us in a downwardspiral.
(40:22):
So you can break that by sayinglike oh, it's okay that I don't
feel that way, like you don'tneed to feel like connecting
with someone in order to justdial, you know, a friend on the
phone.
Like one is a feeling, one isan action.
We don't let ourselves takeaction until we feel a certain
way.
Then we are putting anunnecessary hurdle in front of
(40:44):
ourselves.
So that's the way it is veryhelpful to just separate out oh,
it's okay that I don't feelthat way.
That's sort of acknowledgementand acceptance, and then
focusing on what I can do.
Where it gets problematic iswhen people then become
disconnected from their emotionsbecause they're like well, if I
(41:04):
just ignore the fact that I'msad or upset and just tell
myself that I'm not sad or upset, great, then the problem won't
go away.
But that often just means well,no, the problem will come out
in weirder, unexpected ways.
I'm doing all the things Ishould be doing, and so you
(41:25):
don't want to use the positiveemotions and actions to
invalidate your negativeemotions and experience.
But if you can accept yournegative emotion and experience,
say, okay, it's okay.
I'm just going to focus on thispart for right now.
And this like you know,sometimes we talk about optimism
(41:46):
and like a glass half fullexample.
I don't really like thatexample because it sort of
implies that like, well, you'rejust, you know they're battling
against each other.
Well, there's half full or halfempty.
What are you focusing on?
Because even if the glass was90 percent empty, right, that
doesn't mean you don'tappreciate the little sip of
water that you do have.
(42:06):
And just because you appreciatethe little sip of water that
you do have doesn't mean you'renot frustrated that you don't
have more water.
You have both of those things,it's just okay.
Well, which of those feelings amI going to let guide my actions
.
Am I going to focus on thislittle 10% over here and like,
oh well, that'll help me takepositive action and then that'll
(42:29):
do more things?
I don't have to do that, or Icould if I want.
I just whine and complain andlike nothing's, no one's
stopping me.
Oh, then I won't take actionand then that's going to send me
into a downward spiral and likeI could do that.
But instead I'm going toacknowledge these negative
emotions and choose a differentpath.
So it's really a matter ofchoice in the matter and agency.
(42:52):
If you're doing that, thenthat's great.
If you're just trying to, like,force yourself or ignore these
negative emotions, then it cansometimes create problems.
Greg Hamlin (43:03):
That's fantastic.
I really like your book.
So even me personally isanxiety just wired into who I am
.
My dad was that way, my wife'sthat way, I've got a couple kids
that are that way, and I thinkyou're right.
Like a big part of it is justaccepting it and being okay with
it and then and being okay withwhat you're feeling.
But then what you do, what youchoose to do, the actions you
(43:24):
take, have so much to do withhow you feel after that, and so
I think you, there were so manythings as I read your book that
I was like, wow, that's great.
Or things I even realized I'mlike I've been doing that on my
own and it actually makes a bigdifference in my life.
So Right.
Alex Korb (43:38):
No, I think that's one of the key things too is
sometimes people don't realizeall of the things that you're
already doing.
And realize all of the thingsthat you're already doing and oh
, oh yeah, I'm so glad I'm doingthat, oh, yeah, I'm glad.
It just like gives you more toappreciate about what you're
doing and what you actually havecontrol over and what you don't
.
Greg Hamlin (43:56):
Well, and I think there's a mindset and I think I
think it's changing some butthat if you struggle with those
things then there's somethingwrong with you or you.
You know you can't besuccessful.
You know I've had a greatcareer, I hope to continue to
have a great career.
I have a wonderful family andgreat marriage, so I can look at
all those things and be like,well, there's so many great
things in my life.
(44:16):
Just because you, if any of ourinjured workers or people that
we deal with, are strugglingwith these things, they're
normal.
It's normal to get discouragedsometimes, to feel some of those
things and just accepting it.
Alex Korb (44:27):
Yeah, and I'm going to go even further than that.
It's like people like, oh, okay, well, this is it's not bad.
That's what a lot of peopleokay it's not bad that I have
these things.
And I'm going to actually gofurther and say it's good that
you have these things.
Because we look at some peoplelike, oh, that guy has no
emotions and he's just alwaysthat.
You wouldn't want to be thatguy.
Like, the fact that your brainis emotional makes you more
(44:53):
excited to play with your kidsand spend time with your family
and enjoy your vacations.
It makes you have a better timeof connecting with people and
experience more joy out of that.
It makes you, you know, starteda podcast.
You wouldn't have started apodcast.
You could have just been one ofthose normal people who just
like, goes and does their work,like no, but the fact that you
have these different things thatyou're excited about, that
(45:15):
increases, you know, the depthof your life.
It also sometimes gets in theway, sort of like, you know,
does a Ferrari having a bigengine?
Is that good or bad?
Well, if you're like, oh, it'sbad for the environment.
Okay, is it fun to drive?
(45:35):
Yes, because it's so fun todrive, am I more likely to get
in an accident?
Yeah, probably.
Okay, so I should appreciatethat it's so fun and awesome to
drive and because it's soawesome and fast, it was like,
okay, then I should just be inthese particular situations.
I should just be moreconscientious.
(45:58):
And when you like, this is whatI really work on with my
clients.
The issue is like or the goal isbeing able to master your own
unique neurobiology Like, yeah,you can tweak some things or
change some things here that youcan't fundamentally change what
kind of person you are.
But you don't need to.
(46:19):
And if you're the kind ofperson who is very intelligent
and very emotional, awesome thatyou have a Ferrari for a brain
and stop wishing that you justhad, you know, a Camry or
something because it's morereliable.
Instead, you're like, oh, howcan I drive this amazing Ferrari
(46:41):
and, you know, smoke all theseother guys, you know but also
not get in an accident?
Right, right, nothing againstreliability.
Matthew Yehling (46:52):
I'm offended because I drive a Camry.
Ferraris in St Louis aren'tvery practical.
I'm a little more practical.
Alex Korb (46:59):
But also he's wearing the Hawaiian shirt and you're
wearing a pullover, so thatmakes sense.
But the key is, if you have acamry, then appreciate it for
what it is like.
Great gas mileage fits my wholefamily, whatever like.
So, yeah, like whatever yourbrain is.
(47:20):
The biggest issue is whenpeople are criticizing
themselves for the brain theyhave, instead of appreciating
all the wonderful qualities asit has and like if it gets in
the way, okay.
Well then, just tweak somethings about your biology or
your life.
Greg Hamlin (47:36):
I love it.
I love it.
Well, alex, I know we have ahard stop.
I could talk to you for twomore hours.
You have so much to say and somuch insight.
I certainly encourage people tocheck out your book.
The Spiral Upward, I think, isthe title.
It's great the Upward Spiral,upward Spiral.
Thank you, and the one thing Iwant to end on.
One of the things I like to doat the end of every episode is
(47:57):
just try to put some good vibesout in the universe, and so the
question that I wanted to endwith today is if you don't mind
telling me about a person thatchanged your life, somebody that
impacted your life in apositive way, because I think
you know we focus so much on thenegative, but there's so many
people doing good things insmall ways that impact us and
really make us who we are, andso I wondered if you could share
(48:19):
that with us today.
Alex Korb (48:20):
Yeah, I mean.
The first person that comes tomind is one of my good friends
and UCLA colleagues, dr BillyGordon.
He unfortunately passed away afew years ago, but he was the
most fascinating person I'veever met.
I like to describe him as themost famous 600-pound drag queen
neuroscientist you've neverheard of.
(48:42):
He was in the movie Coming toAmerica with Eddie Murphy in the
80s and he had a whole likecareer in Hollywood.
Like, he lived as a woman for 20years I used the key pronouns
because he was a man when I knewhim and like because he just,
you know, fell in love with dragand just lived as a woman for
20 years.
And then, when he was 40, hedecided in neuroscience and he
(49:08):
went back to living as a man andwe were close friends even
though he was, you know, 27years older than me and we were
very different in so manysuperficial ways.
But he taught me really abouthow the brain actually works and
how to, you know, appreciatethe joy of life even through
(49:29):
difficult circumstances.
And in his memoir he left anunfinished memoir on his laptop
that I'm trying to get publishedbut the basic theme of it is
like you're the only person whogets to be you, so like
sometimes.
Person who gets to be you solike sometimes.
(49:50):
Yeah, you have to do what youcan in order to survive, but you
get the privilege of being you,and so you might as well enjoy
that, even if, you know, notevery situation is ideal.
Greg Hamlin (50:00):
I love that.
I love that.
Well, alex, I just againappreciate you joining us for
this episode.
Encourage people to check outyour book, and I always like to
leave our audience with ourmantra to do right, think
differently and don't forget tocare.
And that's it for this episode.
We hope you keep following us.
We've been doing this for overthree years now.
(50:20):
Episodes release every twoweeks on Monday and we haven't
missed one, so I hope you followus for future episodes, and
with that we'll let you guys go.
Thanks, everybody, thank you.
Hello everyone and welcome to Adjusted.
I'm your host, greg Hamlin,coming at you, as always, from
beautiful Birmingham, alabama,where it's a little bit too hot.
I think we've reached the pointthat my northern blood can
handle, so if you're down here,just watch out, stay inside or
get in the water.
That's pretty hot.
I think we've been hittingclose to 100 every day now with
(00:34):
humidity.
That's pretty intense.
So, anyway, I'm excited toshare this rebroadcast with you.
This is one of the rebroadcaststhat I've probably thought about
the most over the last coupleyears, and it was an episode I
did with Alex Korb, who'sactually a behavioral researcher
and wrote the book the UpwardSpiral, and I found it
(00:57):
fascinating, especially as wethink about our injured workers
and we want to believe thattheir physical injuries are very
separate from their probablystress, anxiety, all the other
things that they're dealing within their life, when really
those things, when we look atthem holistically, impact each
other pretty closely.
So anyhow, I hope you enjoythis as much as I did.
(01:17):
I found this fascinating.
I've thought about it a lotsince then and I do love that.
Alex says that I'm driving.
I think he said a Ferrari, soI'm not, but comparing my
personality.
So, anyway, very fun episode.
Hope you enjoy it as much as Ido.
And, as always, remember, doright, think differently and
don't forget to care.
Welcome to Adjusted.
(01:38):
I'm your host, greg Hamlin,coming at you from beautiful
Birmingham, alabama, and with meis my co-host for the day, matt
Yaling.
Matt, do you want to introduceyourself for everyone?
Matthew Yehling (01:48):
Hello, this is Matthew Yaling, with Midwest
Employers Casualty.
I'm joining you from St Louis,missouri, along the banks of the
mighty Mississippi.
Greg Hamlin (01:57):
Always glad to have you, matt.
We've done a number of theseand definitely excited for this
guest we have with us today, drAlex Korb, phd in
neuroscientists and author ofthe book Upward Spiral.
Alex, if you want to introduceyourself to our guests, that'd
be awesome.
Alex Korb (02:14):
Hi.
Yeah, I'm a neuroscientist andanxiety coach as well.
I teach at UCLA and in mycoaching practice I help smart,
purpose-driven professionals getpast unnecessary anxiety and
mood issues.
But yeah, I'm excited to talkwith you today about
(02:38):
neuroscience.
And I'm right, by the banks ofthe not-so-mighty LA River, Is
there any water in that?
There's a, there's a trickle,Although I'm told I read an
article that when the LA riveris full at max capacity, it's so
efficient at getting water outthat it actually can carry as
much water as the Mississippiansat St Louis right.
Matthew Yehling (03:02):
So hopefully you get to see that soon enough,
right.
Alex Korb (03:05):
Yeah, I, we like we had the atmospheric river, so it
was.
It was impressive to see thewater flowing at 20 miles an
hour.
But you may, that's probablyanother another podcast, yeah.
Matthew Yehling (03:18):
Yeah, we're.
We're excited to have youbecause we talk about and nerd
out on workers' comp issues allthe time and we talked a little
before we started recordingabout why we would have you on
this podcast.
And with injured employeesthere's so much that goes on
(03:41):
right before the injury, afterthe injury and the recovery and
we're interested in gettingpeople the best outcome, the
best result and getting themback to a functional lifespan.
So having you and hearing alittle about the neuroscience of
anxiety and stress anddepression and all that, and
then the eight steps you'veoutlined in your book of how to
overcome that so I'm excited.
It's kind of good to geek outon a different topic than our
(04:03):
typical workers' compensationtype topics, but this really, I
believe, impacts our injuredemployee population and I'm
excited to have thisconversation.
Greg Hamlin (04:13):
I couldn't agree more, Matt.
I feel very much the same wayWith so many of our injured
workers.
They're going through somethingreally hard and when they go
through something really hardlike that, we tend to focus on
the physical side of what'swrong and what we need to do to
help them recover.
But there certainly is a lot ofanxiety that is attached to not
being able to go back to yourwork, trying to worry about how
(04:35):
you're going to pay your bills,thinking about, if you were
really hurt, what your lifemight look like afterwards.
So all of those things I thinkwe both have seen really lead
and impact how people recover.
So this is going to be a funone.
Normally, Alex, we ask peoplehow they got into the insurance
industry.
You're actually on a differentpath, but I would really love to
(04:58):
know, like when you were young,in kindergarten for career day,
did you like show up and say Iam going to be a neuroscientist?
Alex Korb (05:06):
Uh, no, I think my childhood dream was to be a
writer.
And it's funny now because thenI did neuroscience and people
and then I wrote a book aboutneuroscience.
So that was like it's soobvious.
Like you, you did thatintentionally and I was like, no
, I like always liked writingand but I also always like
(05:26):
science and like understandingthings, but they're just like
two separate things.
And then, like it wasn't untilafter getting a PhD, I was like
maybe I should like write aboutthe neuroscience stuff that I
think is interesting.
But yeah, I've always beenfascinated by science and I
(05:47):
think I'm someone who, you know,is maybe more on the anxious
side of things, or rather, I wasa lot more anxious when I was a
kid though I wouldn't havedescribed it that way, I would
have said, oh, no, like I justget a lot of, you know, stomach
aches.
And in learning aboutneuroscience, I started to see
(06:11):
like, oh, like the things thatyou're thinking about and like
what is happening in your brainaffects what's happening in your
body and your pain and yourdigestion, and that was just
fascinating and I wanted tolearn more about it and I felt
like the more I learned about it, the more I understood just
(06:32):
about myself and what are thelittle things you can change to
be happier and more productiveand what are the things that you
can't really change, because itjust is part of having a human
brain.
So I've always been reallyinspired by that.
Matthew Yehling (06:49):
That's great.
And I you know the bookobviously we we've referenced.
It's called the upward spiral.
Wrote it a couple of years ago.
Yeah, it really gives you apath out.
Right, you know from thedownward spiral, but you know to
to start off, like how does thebrain get in that downward
spiral and then transition.
Know to to start off, like howdoes the brain get in that
downward spiral and thentransition to the other way?
Alex Korb (07:09):
So yeah, to the that's actually, I think, the
most important place to start islike well, yeah, why is this
happen in the first place?
Because a lot of times, whenpeople are stuck in anxiety or
depression, part of the issue isthat like but this doesn't make
any sense.
And one of the first steps islike no, it actually makes
(07:31):
perfect sense based on how thebrain works.
So your brain is full of all ofthese different circuits that
evolved at different times fordifferent goals.
You have habit circuit and aworry circuit and imagination
(07:53):
circuit and decision-makingcircuit, and the function of
each one is kind of differs fromperson to person, just like any
other traits.
Some people are taller, somepeople are shorter.
So some people, you know, worrymore, some people worry less.
And one of the crucial things tounderstand is that there's
nothing inherently better orworse about the activity of any
(08:20):
particular circuit, just likethere's nothing inherently worse
about being shorter.
Right, it might make it harderto dunk a basketball.
Does that mean you can't be agood basketball player?
Like no, it just means maybestop trying to dunk it and work
on your three-pointer, yourpassing or whatever.
And so there are certain partsof our biology that like yeah,
(08:45):
that we can't change, but it'snot any given feature, it's like
how they all function togetherand the reason why downward
spirals happen is because thethings that happen to us, or the
thoughts that pop into our head, cause changes in the activity
and chemistry of the brain and,based on your brain's particular
(09:11):
sensitivities, well then thatcan cause the worrying circuit
to, like, trigger the habitcircuit.
And if you have good habitsprogrammed in, well then that's
not a problem, it just resets.
But like, oh, if the worryingcircuit activates the habit
circuit, which causes you to bemore indecisive and give you
more to worry about, and thatincreases your anxiety because
(09:34):
you're focusing on the thingsyou can't control, and then you,
whatever, like it all starts toand you stop sleeping and you
stop exercising and it allstarts to snowball out of
control and it feels liketotally random, but it's
actually like no, these arebrain processes, some of which
you have control over and someof which you don't.
(09:56):
It's just, ah, like the piecesyou have control over.
Well, those are the things youshould do something about and I
I sort of like to describe like,you know, the weather is the
weather, but you can use yourknowledge of a weather to decide
oh, do I need an umbrella tolike plan a trip or whatever?
(10:18):
And the same is true of thehuman brain, that the brain is
this dynamic system that,because of how it's wired like,
gets caught in these spirals andloops sometimes, but you can
use the knowledge of that toactually create, you know, a
spiral in the other direction.
Greg Hamlin (10:36):
I love what you said there, and when I read the
book, I think the thing thatreally stood out to me in this
beginning part was just how,when people start to feel these
things, they start to cascadewhere perhaps maybe they're
feeling depressed or they'refeeling anxious and so they
don't want to get out of bed.
Right, because they're notgetting out of bed Now, they're
not exercising, and those thingsthen, instead of getting better
(10:59):
, they're actually compoundingon each other.
If the behaviors that we havewhen we feel those things work
that way, it can get a whole lotworse.
You did a really good job inthe book of explaining how the
brain works on that and Idefinitely am not a PhD, I'm a
criminal justice major, so I'mgoing to leave that to you but I
thought maybe for our listeners, you could talk a little bit
(11:22):
about, like, how do thedifferent parts of the brain
work that causes these spirals?
Alex Korb (11:26):
Yeah, you know, it's really a like, a problem with
how the thinking and the feelingand circuits in the brain are
communicating with andregulating each other.
And we can get technical, likeI, you know I like to be nerdy
like, oh well, you're talkingabout the prefrontal cortex and
the limbic system, whichcontains the hippocampus and the
(11:47):
amygdala, and how thosecommunicate with the dorsal
striatum, like, but what'sactually most important is to
just not memorize the names ofthese things, but just recognize
how they function and, based onknow, some people have action
circuits that are, you know,more impulsive than others.
(12:09):
Some people like more routinethan others.
Some people's emotionalcircuitry is more reactive than
others, and a lot of times wecan look at how our brains are
and be like, oh, that's whereall my problems are, like if I
just wasn't so emotional, then Iwouldn't, that wouldn't trigger
these habits and whatever.
But like there's nothinginherently worse about having a
(12:30):
brain that is more emotional.
It actually makes it.
You know you'll be able toexperience more joy and like
connection with people and alsoyour emotions are telling you
about things that are importantto you.
So you might look at someoneelse who's less than emotional
(12:50):
and like, wow, that person.
They can just trudge along intheir boring life and it doesn't
affect them.
It's like, yeah, you should beaffected sometimes by things
that are important.
It's just that some of thosethings you can't do anything
about.
So stop increasing thereactivity of your emotional
circuitry by focusing on them.
(13:12):
Instead, just reframe or acceptthem.
But other things you shouldtake action on and you can thank
your emotional brain Like, oh,thank you so much for letting me
know and I should do somethingabout that.
But it's crucial to know, like,well, what are the things you
can change about your brain andwhat you can't.
Matthew Yehling (13:33):
So when we're dealing with an injured worker
that's just had an injury, gregoutlined the compound effect and
you outlined that in your book.
You even referenced like, evenfor you, like writing by
yourself takes you away andmakes you actually stressful, so
you go out and you write itcoffee shop, but you said, you
know, so you're like being awareof that.
So like when you're thrown intoa situation, maybe like a car
(13:56):
accident or a worker'scompensation injury or something
that's totally out of the blue,we see different responses.
Right, no, two people areexactly the same but we see
different responses fromdifferent people and some people
, you know, emerge from thatsimilar injuries with two very
different outcomes.
Right, some people get stuck andyou talk about getting stuck in
the book, but and then somepeople emerge, you know, and
(14:18):
they're back to work and they'reproductive and you know they go
on.
So it's like we're trying tofocus like on the stuck.
So we're stuck here.
We have, we just got injured,we have this history, we have,
you know, maybe some genes thatpreclude us having a poor
recovery, or experiences orstresses and social you know,
poor social support or or luck,like you, you know, even called
(14:39):
that out, you know, so.
So all that evolution of itemsand everything.
So how would you like, howwould you?
You know, if you were talkingto somebody and they were like,
hey, I had this, all thishappened, I feel like crap, you
know, I'm I'm stuck, I'mdepressed.
You know what would you tellsomebody?
Alex Korb (14:56):
you know, in that situation, yeah, Well, one of
the first, most important thingsis to acknowledge your emotions
.
Things is to acknowledge youremotions Because sometimes, like
smart people can get in thishabit of like oh well, I'm
logical, I should be able tothink through this and and
whatever.
And like, yeah, logic is areally useful tool that the
(15:18):
human brain evolved, but it'sbuilt on top of all these other
parts of the brain andparticularly for certain things
like happiness, that isinherently emotional.
You can't entirely logic yourway to it, and so what happens a
lot of times is people ignoretheir emotions because they
(15:40):
think they're not relevant.
And your brain is trying totell you like hey, buddy, this
is important and you're ignoringit.
And then your brain sometimesit's like okay, fine, like, if
you're not gonna pay attentionto me, I'm gonna stop telling
you about your emotions, I'mjust gonna.
You're gonna start havingmigraines or headaches or
chronic pain.
Like, our emotions don't goaway simply because you ignore
(16:04):
them, and one of the mostpowerful things to do is to
acknowledge your emotions andthat you have many emotions.
I'm angry at myself for themistakes I've made.
I'm frustrated at how long thisis taking.
I'm worried where this is goingto go.
I'm excited that this might getbetter.
I'm grateful for the progress.
(16:25):
Like we have many emotions andso a lot of times we ignore all
of them or we try and say no.
But what's the one emotion I'mfeeling?
Am I feeling good or am Ifeeling bad?
And like that's like a cheftrying to get better at cooking
and be like does this taste good?
Does it taste bad?
No, like you need some nuance.
Like, oh, is this too salty?
Is it too sweet?
Like understand your ownemotional depth.
(16:48):
So this awareness is the firstpiece.
The second piece is validatingyour own emotional experience.
Like oh, it makes total sensewhy I'm frustrated and depressed
.
I normally go into work everyday and I enjoy talking with my
coworkers and being productive,but I know, oh, now I can't do
(17:10):
any of that.
Like, therefore, my currentemotional reaction makes sense.
And what?
But what often happens ifpeople start to gain a little
emotional awareness?
They then trigger a habit ofself-criticism Like you, idiot,
why can't you just do thisnormally?
You used to be able to do itInstead of realizing, like right
, your injury may have takenaway things from your life that
(17:35):
were very important to yourwell-being, and getting mad at
yourself for that doesn't help,that, like, you still don't have
those things.
And now you also have to be madat yourself.
Again, this is people.
I don't want to blame people,though, because, like, sometimes
(17:56):
people are like, oh yeah, Ijust need to stop being mad at
myself.
It's like, no, perfectlyunderstandable why you are mad
at yourself, and this isn't tosay that you couldn't are mad at
yourself, and this isn't to saythat you couldn't be mad at
yourself.
It's that, oh, you are mad atyourself and that's okay and you
are grateful, and so ourpositive emotions and our
(18:18):
negative emotions, like, don'thave to do this cosmic battle
against each other.
Whereas am I grateful and thisis where people often get stuck
Like, well, I should be moregrateful that it wasn't worse
and that I have all these, mywife and all these other
wonderful things.
Like, okay, well, you probablyare grateful for those things.
That doesn't invalidate youremotions and your negative
(18:41):
experience, and that's one ofthe reasons why I love talking
about the neuroscience, becauseit helps you realize, like, oh,
these things you're experiencing, like, yeah, that's a normal
part of being human when youcome disconnected from your
normal support network or youaren't able to accomplish as
much as you could before.
(19:01):
Like, yeah, it's totally normaland understandable to have
these feelings and, on top ofthat, you may be having these
unhelpful habits or ways ofthinking about it that are
making it worse or moredifficult than it needs to be.
That doesn't mean it is all inyour head.
(19:22):
The other reason I like talkingabout neuroscience is because
it takes away some of the stigmaabout it.
Like is nothing wrong with you.
Like this is just.
Oh, these brain circuits arefunctioning in this particular
way and like.
My favorite analogy for that Idescribe in the book is with a
microphone and a speaker.
Like, if the volume on thespeaker is turned up a little
(19:45):
too high, oh, maybe someonebumped the speaker and the
volume knob went up.
Now your normal singing leadsto this screeching feedback.
But there's not somethingbroken or wrong about the
microphone and nothing brokenabout the speaker.
They're working exactly asthey're supposed to.
(20:05):
Just, the problem arises basedon, like, the tuning.
And it doesn't mean you need toask stupid microphone like, no,
well, you just turn down thevolume on the speaker just a
tiny bit or maybe realize, ah,like, I just need to stop
shouting into it and yeah, likethat.
(20:26):
Hopefully some of that ishelpful to realize, like what is
going on.
Matthew Yehling (20:31):
I think it's really helpful.
I mean, especially like if I'mthe adjuster talking to an
injured employee.
I think understanding some ofthat and realizing you know the
situation, the injured employeesequally is important, right,
like to help somebody throughthis situation.
The adjuster is really the onesyou know, working with the
injured employee day to day andhaving them understand, like how
the injured employee andunderstand, like what they're
(20:52):
processing and what they'rethinking about you know that's
very critical.
Alex Korb (20:56):
And I just I should add one thing is that,
particularly when your audienceis, you know more adjusters who
are talking to these people, oneof the wrong ways to go about
it it's to be like, ah, I knowall these things you should do,
you should exercise more, youshould do these things, and like
, no, this is about, oh,understanding and gaining
(21:17):
insight for yourself.
And so, if you're talking aboutsomeone else, oh, these are
reasons to have more compassionfor the other person, for why
it's so difficult.
And this is why I wanted totalk about the neuroscience so
much in the book, because myeditor was like, stop talking so
much about the brain, just tellpeople, like, what can you do?
(21:38):
What can you do Like well, thefirst thing is to start out with
like understanding, like, oh,it makes sense why I'm in this
situation.
And so if you are talking tosomeone else, they are probably
jumping past the part ofawareness and validation and
they're trying to like, oh, I'mtrying to do this and I'm trying
to do this and I'm going to getthem right, and like, you can
(22:01):
help them with that process.
But usually it starts with likehelping them realize that it's
not their fault to help themtalk about their emotions, like,
oh, that must be reallyfrustrating that the doctor is
telling you there's nothingwrong with you, but you know
you're in pain.
But the way you interact withsomeone, you can get them to
become aware of their emotionsand then you can help them
(22:23):
validate their emotions, whichare often the first step,
instead of just saying, hey, youshould do this and this.
If they ask you, hey, what doyou think I could do?
Oh, then that's a totallydifferent thing.
But just don't start withtelling them, because that's
what everyone's already doing.
Greg Hamlin (22:39):
That's really important, I think, to really
start right where you're talkingabout validating how injured
workers feel.
One of the things we didrecently the letters we used to
send out when someone was hurtsounded like an attorney drafted
them and we went back and werestarted that and now they
start with we understand you'vebeen hurt in an injury at work
and being hurt is hard, and sowe just start out acknowledging
(23:02):
from the very beginning and Ithink that this is something
that in general in the industrywe can do a better job of
showing some empathy becausepeople are going through
something really challenging.
There's a pain coach I'veworked with before and she's
told me the story.
You know, normally by the timethey go to a program like hers,
they've been through so manydifferent things and a lot of
(23:24):
times they're stuck in like theback room of their mother's
house and they're not evengetting out.
And you know she was telling mesome of the things she starts
with is just simple goals thatthey have, and one of them was
to get I can't remember if itwas get a t-shirt that had I
can't remember what theirfavorite band was and like go
(23:45):
into the living room and listento it.
It wasn't even anything thatyou would think would be like a
great accomplishment, but it waslike these slow steps were
helping that person really.
Just start to to do some of thethings you talk about in
positive ways rather than focuson, you know, all the things
that have gone wrong over thelast three years.
(24:06):
So I think the acknowledgementpart is really important.
And then, once we get there,what are some of the things
either personally we can do inour own lives, or things that if
you were going through this,you could do if you're one of
our NGO workers, that would help.
Alex Korb (24:25):
Yeah, really helpful, which is to make small changes
or set small goals, becausesometimes we ignore our small
goals, Like, yeah, but yeah, Ican put on a t-shirt, but like
what I really want to do is getback to work, but like you can't
accomplish the big goal.
So therefore, you just stressyourself out and do nothing,
(24:46):
instead of like, well, itdoesn't matter if you're, if the
big goal is more important ifyou can't do it.
So focus on these small changes.
I mean the book, even in thesubtitles, like small changes
and also that's importantbecause, like big changes, any
big change in your life, whetherit is an injury or winning the
(25:09):
lottery, like any big changecauses stress.
And so when you try and make abig change, you already have a
big change, but you're trying tomake a whole bunch of big
changes in your life.
While I'm trying to do this andthis and this and this and this
, well then your brain is gonnaresist.
So if you just start small, itmakes it feel more achievable
but you also don't add morestress.
(25:31):
So setting small goals that aremoving you in the right
direction are infinitely betterfor you than these big, huge
goals that you can't actually door can't make progress on.
Other simple steps involve Imean along those same lines are
(25:52):
like physical activity A lot oftimes and I use the word
physical activity instead ofexercise for a reason because
exercise has all these negativeconnotations of like things that
you have to do that areunpleasant, and it forces people
to often think about all thethings they can't do or how
(26:12):
unpleasant it is.
So they'll.
You know I'm in pain, I can'texercise.
We don't need to exercise, justmove your body some.
So if you're on the couch andthat's where you're at every day
, okay, don't think about liketrying to run a marathon, just
like, okay, get up off the couchand walk around the block once,
(26:33):
and if that's all you can dofor a week, great, that's way
better than sitting on the couchthe entire day, and you also
don't have to make that decisionall at once.
All you need to do is get upand put on your shoes and walk
outside.
You don't have to say, youdon't have to force yourself to
exercise, but by changing yourenvironment.
(26:54):
Now you're wearing your shoesand you're standing outside.
Well, if you really want it,you could go back inside to the
couch, or well, you're alreadyhere, you might as well walk.
And that's why sometimes we'relike, well, you're sitting on a
couch and we're trying to workout the motivation to exercise,
instead of making just likelittle, small change in our
(27:14):
environment.
So that's, those are just a fewplaces to start, and I should,
by the way, I should add, likeeven any little life change that
you make has many effectsbecause, like going on, that
little walk around the blockaccomplishes many things.
One, some physical activitywhich impacts the dopamine
system, the serotonin system.
(27:34):
Two, it's a small goal that youset for yourself, that you can
do, and that also increasesmotivation and releases dopamine
.
Three, now you're getting somesunlight, which also changes
your brain's clock and improvessleep quality and improves sleep
quality, reduces pain.
So that you know, tomorrow youmaybe have a little bit more
(27:57):
energy because you're morerested.
And so, like we often don'tmake these small changes because
we're like, well, that's notgoing to fix everything and it's
like, yeah, but if you justmake one little change, that'll
probably have these otherunintended, you know other add
on effects and that'll changeyour brain and then it'll make
it a little bit easier tomorrow.
Matthew Yehling (28:18):
And now you've got better sleep.
Now you have a better habit,you know you get into the
biofeedback and you feel better.
Alex Korb (28:26):
Once you, because, like people, they want to often
like, jump forward in theprocess.
Like, like it's any athleticskill?
Like I don't want to practicefree throws, I just want to be a
great free throw shooter.
Well, how do you get there?
Well, you, you don't start outthere.
I mean, it's okay to miss abunch of free throws, nothing
wrong with that.
Like, just keep going.
(28:47):
Every single time you do it,you're building that pathway.
Like, just keep going.
Every single time you do it,you're building that pathway.
So when people are trying tochange their habits like I'm
(29:08):
trying to build a habit of, youknow, getting at physical, yet a
habit you just have to do itand most of the time you'll
forget about, okay, and then,but anytime you remember I was
like, all right, I'm just goingto keep doing that.
And then each time you do it,you start to strengthen those
connections, which makes iteasier in the future.
This is just how the brainworks, and realizing that that's
(29:32):
a process that takes time tobecome automatic is helpful.
Just like if you were growing aplant and someone's like hey,
plants need water and fertilizer, and you're like okay, great,
so I put my water and myfertilizer and I come back the
next day and stupid plant hasn'tgrown yet.
Well, that's the point, I'm notgoing to stop, I'm going to
(29:52):
stop watering it and it's like,ah, okay, like, yes, that's a
necessary component, but like italso takes time.
And so you just need to imaginethat you're tending your brain
like a plant.
It's not going to haveimmediate results.
Or even like going to the gymright, I want to, I want to look
(30:12):
like the rock, I want to bulkup, okay, well, the first few
days you go to the gym, youprobably don't look any
different and you feel sore andyou feel worse.
But knowing the how the biologyworks Well, if I keep doing
that, then I'll feel better,I'll look better works.
Well, if I keep doing that,then I'll feel better, I'll look
(30:33):
better.
Whatever.
Like it's easier when we'retalking about biology that we
can see.
It's harder when we're talkingabout things that we can't see
and because they're so abstract.
And that's why I find it sohelpful to talk about the
neuroscience, because it makesit concrete, like wow, I didn't
feel amazing after exercisingtoday, but I know that it's
(30:56):
having these effects on my brain, just like water and fertilizer
, so I'm going to keep doing it,and then we start to see
results.
Matthew Yehling (31:07):
Does that also help with?
So we're talking about lossprevention a lot in insurance
too.
So if I think about, like myloss prevention hat, if I have
these good behaviors, when thenext disruption occurs, you know
, the next time I sprain myankle is the recovery faster or
is the disruption less?
I've built these good.
You know these habits, thesegood mechanisms to kind of, you
(31:28):
know, get me to a good baseline.
Or even you know these habits,these good mechanisms to kind of
, you know, get me to a goodbaseline.
Or even you know, out of thatmy spiral is going up.
You know, maybe I'm not at thetop of the spiral, we're
probably never at the top right,but we have injured employees
or loss prevention activitiesthat kind of get us a better
baseline.
You know I'm thinking thedisruption doesn't sink me down,
(31:48):
my spiral doesn't go down asfar.
I don't know.
Is there any science to thatyeah, no, absolutely.
Alex Korb (31:54):
And some of the a lot of things we're talking about
are physical habits like yourexercise habits and your sleep
habits and those.
If you're consistent aboutthose then, yeah, it's less
likely it'll get stuck in adownward spiral.
But one of the most importanthabits to get a handle on is
(32:15):
self-criticism, because normallywhat happens for a lot of
successful people, if you got towhere you are in some sense
because you were critical ofyourself, like in high school
you slacked off a little bit andyou're like you idiot, you need
to focus and like do better onthe test and that helped because
(32:35):
you know you're smart andtalented and motivated and you
just need a little kick in thebutt to accomplish this thing.
But it's also because thechallenge you were facing wasn't
insurmountable and so a littleself-criticism was helpful and
we often retain that habit overtime.
(32:55):
But now you're experiencing asituation where trying harder
isn't necessarily helpful or youdon't have full control over
the situation, which createsstress, and stress prompts us to
do our old habits.
And now this habit ofself-criticism that like maybe
(33:16):
was helpful or at least wasn't aproblem for most of your life,
now it's creating depression anddemotivation and increased pain
and all of this stuff.
And if you can reprogram thathabit of self-criticism, then
absolutely you become moreresilient to getting caught in
(33:40):
these downward spirals in thefirst place.
But that's hard to do.
But a lot of the first step isrealizing, oh, but it's useful,
and starts with mindfulness.
And then what you start to dois, instead of trying to stop
your habit of criticizingyourself, you just instead try
to create a new habit ofcompassion.
Greg Hamlin (34:00):
I think that's great and I think you're really
hitting on something withself-awareness.
I think a lot of times theexample I give is there's been
times I've driven to work and Idon't even remember really
getting in my car.
I got halfway there and it'sbecause I go that same route
every day.
I know exactly what I'm doing.
I can be half asleep and I'llshow up at my office and I'll be
(34:21):
there, and I think I've gonedown that path so many times and
it's such a habit that I don'teven think about it.
Alex Korb (34:29):
Watch out Birmingham.
Greg Hamlin (34:32):
Yeah right, I have not been an accident, so good
news on that.
But I think sometimes when westart talking about whether it's
anxiety or depression, it'sreally easy, if we have the
habits that are taking us in adownward spiral, to almost be
like that drive to work.
It's like you just start goingdown that path because you've
driven that path so many timesthat it's thinking of ways to
(34:55):
redirect yourself, withoutgetting mad at yourself, but
knowing that you're on that path.
Alex Korb (35:01):
Right.
Greg Hamlin (35:02):
Yeah, one of the things you talked about in your
book that I loved was just theimportance of gratitude.
Right yeah, depression, how doyou fit that in, or how do you?
What are some thoughts on howto work through that so that you
(35:28):
get the benefits that come withthe gratitude?
Alex Korb (35:31):
Yeah, well it's.
It's obviously wonderful whenwe're like overcome with these
like feelings of gratitude, butunfortunately that's what people
focus on too much.
That you know, don't?
I don't feel grateful at themoment and they think that their
goal is they need to change howthey feel, that I should feel
(35:53):
more grateful.
Look at all these wonderfulthings in my life.
I should feel more grateful.
But that's not helpful, becausehowever you feel is how you
feel, and if now you'recriticizing yourself for how you
feel, well, that's not going tosuddenly make you more grateful
.
Just like my height, I might befrustrated that I can't dunk a
(36:13):
basketball.
Okay, well, like my height iswhat it is Like.
Can I get better at jumping?
Maybe I can.
Like.
If maybe I can't get goodenough, I should then start
focusing on passing or dribblingor defense or teamwork or
whatever.
The challenge I think a lot oftimes also is that we just think
you're black or white, Like wethink we have just one emotion
(36:36):
and a lot of times you have alot of frustration and negative
emotions that are obscuring yourawareness of the gratitude that
you already have.
So a lot of times you aregrateful, you're just not aware
of it.
Just like you know, if you havea messy desk, like well, your
(36:57):
paper is here somewhere, youjust can't see it, but the
process of looking for it isreally helpful, it's much more
likely that you will find it.
So, when it comes to likewonderful things in your life, a
lot of people like, well, youknow, yeah, I have a house and a
nice, you know, and kids, andlike I don't, I should feel more
(37:18):
grateful.
Well, no, you actually aregrateful for those things.
Like, do you like that you haverunning water?
If someone asked you about it,you'd be like, yes, I'm glad I
have running water.
Great, that's the first step.
Like yeah, it's not going tooverwhelm you with feelings of
gratitude, unless you know youwere just in a storm.
(37:39):
The water got shut off forthree days.
We're like, oh, now we haverunning water.
Oh, awesome.
Your brain quickly habituate towhatever your circumstances are
and that's why it's very easy totake for granted all these
wonderful things in our life.
They don't automaticallytrigger emotions, but your goal
is just to direct your attentionto what those things are.
(38:02):
Your brain's not going toautomatically do it for you.
So you can just think, oh, am Iglad I have running water.
Yeah, I am really glad it'sokay that it doesn't change my
feelings.
But the more that I become awareand focus on all of these
things that I am grateful fornow, suddenly they become a
bigger part of my awareness andthese negative emotions don't
(38:26):
quite seem so unmanageable.
But people also get in theirway because they're trying to
figure out well, what's the onething that I'm feeling?
Am I angry that this happenedor am I grateful that it's not
worse?
You are both of those things.
If the anger helps you takeaction to you know, speak up to
(38:47):
management or suicide orwhatever great, it's good.
If you're angry, if thegratitude helps you enjoy your
life and appreciate the thingsyou have, then great, that's
good, you're grateful.
But like you don't need to havethose things, do battle against
each other and it almost alwaysbecomes a problem when we start
using the word should like geta more nuanced and complex
(39:12):
understanding of all the thingsthat you are feeling.
Matthew Yehling (39:16):
So I tell my kids in the morning and maybe
I'm doing it wrong, but I say ifyou act enthusiastic, you will
feel enthusiastic, right.
And I have a friend that kindof says that.
So I kind of picked it up fromhim and I said you know, there's
some truth here.
Like you act enthusiastic, youwill feel enthusiastic and you
know it's said otherwise, right,like almost fake it till you
make it.
Is there, you know, is therebiological, is there like
(39:37):
neurological truth to that?
Alex Korb (39:40):
Yes, there is biological truth to that being
helpful and that being a problem.
So the reason why I fake ittill you make it is helpful is,
like you know, I don't feel likeexercising.
Okay Well, if I felt likeexercising, like what would I do
(40:01):
?
I'd probably, ah well.
So then you start changing youractions.
You don't let the fact thatyou're feeling a certain way
dictate all of your actions.
I don't really feel like beingsocial, so then I isolate myself
and I don't feel so.
Then we you know it's the, theemotions trigger our actions and
and send us in a downwardspiral.
(40:22):
So you can break that by sayinglike oh, it's okay that I don't
feel that way, like you don'tneed to feel like connecting
with someone in order to justdial, you know, a friend on the
phone.
Like one is a feeling, one isan action.
We don't let ourselves takeaction until we feel a certain
way.
Then we are putting anunnecessary hurdle in front of
(40:44):
ourselves.
So that's the way it is veryhelpful to just separate out oh,
it's okay that I don't feelthat way.
That's sort of acknowledgementand acceptance, and then
focusing on what I can do.
Where it gets problematic iswhen people then become
disconnected from their emotionsbecause they're like well, if I
(41:04):
just ignore the fact that I'msad or upset and just tell
myself that I'm not sad or upset, great, then the problem won't
go away.
But that often just means well,no, the problem will come out
in weirder, unexpected ways.
I'm doing all the things Ishould be doing, and so you
(41:25):
don't want to use the positiveemotions and actions to
invalidate your negativeemotions and experience.
But if you can accept yournegative emotion and experience,
say, okay, it's okay.
I'm just going to focus on thispart for right now.
And this like you know,sometimes we talk about optimism
(41:46):
and like a glass half fullexample.
I don't really like thatexample because it sort of
implies that like, well, you'rejust, you know they're battling
against each other.
Well, there's half full or halfempty.
What are you focusing on?
Because even if the glass was90 percent empty, right, that
doesn't mean you don'tappreciate the little sip of
water that you do have.
(42:06):
And just because you appreciatethe little sip of water that
you do have doesn't mean you'renot frustrated that you don't
have more water.
You have both of those things,it's just okay.
Well, which of those feelings amI going to let guide my actions
.
Am I going to focus on thislittle 10% over here and like,
oh well, that'll help me takepositive action and then that'll
(42:29):
do more things?
I don't have to do that, or Icould if I want.
I just whine and complain andlike nothing's, no one's
stopping me.
Oh, then I won't take actionand then that's going to send me
into a downward spiral and likeI could do that.
But instead I'm going toacknowledge these negative
emotions and choose a differentpath.
So it's really a matter ofchoice in the matter and agency.
(42:52):
If you're doing that, thenthat's great.
If you're just trying to, like,force yourself or ignore these
negative emotions, then it cansometimes create problems.
Greg Hamlin (43:03):
That's fantastic.
I really like your book.
So even me personally isanxiety just wired into who I am
.
My dad was that way, my wife'sthat way, I've got a couple kids
that are that way, and I thinkyou're right.
Like a big part of it is justaccepting it and being okay with
it and then and being okay withwhat you're feeling.
But then what you do, what youchoose to do, the actions you
(43:24):
take, have so much to do withhow you feel after that, and so
I think you, there were so manythings as I read your book that
I was like, wow, that's great.
Or things I even realized I'mlike I've been doing that on my
own and it actually makes a bigdifference in my life.
So Right.
Alex Korb (43:38):
No, I think that's one of the key things too is
sometimes people don't realizeall of the things that you're
already doing.
And realize all of the thingsthat you're already doing and oh
, oh yeah, I'm so glad I'm doingthat, oh, yeah, I'm glad.
It just like gives you more toappreciate about what you're
doing and what you actually havecontrol over and what you don't
.
Greg Hamlin (43:56):
Well, and I think there's a mindset and I think I
think it's changing some butthat if you struggle with those
things then there's somethingwrong with you or you.
You know you can't besuccessful.
You know I've had a greatcareer, I hope to continue to
have a great career.
I have a wonderful family andgreat marriage, so I can look at
all those things and be like,well, there's so many great
things in my life.
(44:16):
Just because you, if any of ourinjured workers or people that
we deal with, are strugglingwith these things, they're
normal.
It's normal to get discouragedsometimes, to feel some of those
things and just accepting it.
Alex Korb (44:27):
Yeah, and I'm going to go even further than that.
It's like people like, oh, okay, well, this is it's not bad.
That's what a lot of peopleokay it's not bad that I have
these things.
And I'm going to actually gofurther and say it's good that
you have these things.
Because we look at some peoplelike, oh, that guy has no
emotions and he's just alwaysthat.
You wouldn't want to be thatguy.
Like, the fact that your brainis emotional makes you more
(44:53):
excited to play with your kidsand spend time with your family
and enjoy your vacations.
It makes you have a better timeof connecting with people and
experience more joy out of that.
It makes you, you know, starteda podcast.
You wouldn't have started apodcast.
You could have just been one ofthose normal people who just
like, goes and does their work,like no, but the fact that you
have these different things thatyou're excited about, that
(45:15):
increases, you know, the depthof your life.
It also sometimes gets in theway, sort of like, you know,
does a Ferrari having a bigengine?
Is that good or bad?
Well, if you're like, oh, it'sbad for the environment.
Okay, is it fun to drive?
(45:35):
Yes, because it's so fun todrive, am I more likely to get
in an accident?
Yeah, probably.
Okay, so I should appreciatethat it's so fun and awesome to
drive and because it's soawesome and fast, it was like,
okay, then I should just be inthese particular situations.
I should just be moreconscientious.
(45:58):
And when you like, this is whatI really work on with my
clients.
The issue is like or the goal isbeing able to master your own
unique neurobiology Like, yeah,you can tweak some things or
change some things here that youcan't fundamentally change what
kind of person you are.
But you don't need to.
(46:19):
And if you're the kind ofperson who is very intelligent
and very emotional, awesome thatyou have a Ferrari for a brain
and stop wishing that you justhad, you know, a Camry or
something because it's morereliable.
Instead, you're like, oh, howcan I drive this amazing Ferrari
(46:41):
and, you know, smoke all theseother guys, you know but also
not get in an accident?
Right, right, nothing againstreliability.
Matthew Yehling (46:52):
I'm offended because I drive a Camry.
Ferraris in St Louis aren'tvery practical.
I'm a little more practical.
Alex Korb (46:59):
But also he's wearing the Hawaiian shirt and you're
wearing a pullover, so thatmakes sense.
But the key is, if you have acamry, then appreciate it for
what it is like.
Great gas mileage fits my wholefamily, whatever like.
So, yeah, like whatever yourbrain is.
(47:20):
The biggest issue is whenpeople are criticizing
themselves for the brain theyhave, instead of appreciating
all the wonderful qualities asit has and like if it gets in
the way, okay.
Well then, just tweak somethings about your biology or
your life.
Greg Hamlin (47:36):
I love it.
I love it.
Well, alex, I know we have ahard stop.
I could talk to you for twomore hours.
You have so much to say and somuch insight.
I certainly encourage people tocheck out your book.
The Spiral Upward, I think, isthe title.
It's great the Upward Spiral,upward Spiral.
Thank you, and the one thing Iwant to end on.
One of the things I like to doat the end of every episode is
(47:57):
just try to put some good vibesout in the universe, and so the
question that I wanted to endwith today is if you don't mind
telling me about a person thatchanged your life, somebody that
impacted your life in apositive way, because I think
you know we focus so much on thenegative, but there's so many
people doing good things insmall ways that impact us and
really make us who we are, andso I wondered if you could share
(48:19):
that with us today.
Alex Korb (48:20):
Yeah, I mean.
The first person that comes tomind is one of my good friends
and UCLA colleagues, dr BillyGordon.
He unfortunately passed away afew years ago, but he was the
most fascinating person I'veever met.
I like to describe him as themost famous 600-pound drag queen
neuroscientist you've neverheard of.
(48:42):
He was in the movie Coming toAmerica with Eddie Murphy in the
80s and he had a whole likecareer in Hollywood.
Like, he lived as a woman for 20years I used the key pronouns
because he was a man when I knewhim and like because he just,
you know, fell in love with dragand just lived as a woman for
20 years.
And then, when he was 40, hedecided in neuroscience and he
(49:08):
went back to living as a man andwe were close friends even
though he was, you know, 27years older than me and we were
very different in so manysuperficial ways.
But he taught me really abouthow the brain actually works and
how to, you know, appreciatethe joy of life even through
(49:29):
difficult circumstances.
And in his memoir he left anunfinished memoir on his laptop
that I'm trying to get publishedbut the basic theme of it is
like you're the only person whogets to be you, so like
sometimes.
Person who gets to be you solike sometimes.
(49:50):
Yeah, you have to do what youcan in order to survive, but you
get the privilege of being you,and so you might as well enjoy
that, even if, you know, notevery situation is ideal.
Greg Hamlin (50:00):
I love that.
I love that.
Well, alex, I just againappreciate you joining us for
this episode.
Encourage people to check outyour book, and I always like to
leave our audience with ourmantra to do right, think
differently and don't forget tocare.
And that's it for this episode.
We hope you keep following us.
We've been doing this for overthree years now.
(50:20):
Episodes release every twoweeks on Monday and we haven't
missed one, so I hope you followus for future episodes, and
with that we'll let you guys go.
Thanks, everybody, thank you.
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