May 29, 2025 • 48 mins
Angela Hanscom, occupational therapist and visionary founder of Timbernook, takes us on a fascinating journey through the critical importance of outdoor play in child development. "Nature is the ultimate sensory experience," she explains, revealing how modern childhood's increasing indoor confinement is fundamentally altering children's neurological development.
With alarming clarity, Hanscom shares that today's children sit approximately nine hours daily, severely restricting movement patterns necessary for healthy development. The consequences manifest in surprising ways – children literally falling out of chairs, bumping into each other, and struggling with sensory processing. These aren't merely behavioral issues but symptoms of underdeveloped vestibular and proprioceptive systems – sensory networks crucial for body awareness, coordination, and emotional regulation.
Through compelling stories from her Timbernook program, Hanscom demonstrates how authentic outdoor play creates profound developmental opportunities impossible to replicate indoors. A child climbing trees, building forts, or catching frogs in mud puddles receives full-body sensory input that integrates their neurological systems in ways small boxes of sand in clinical settings simply cannot. When adults step back and allow children to navigate their own conflicts and creative endeavors, remarkable learning unfolds – from boundary-setting to empathy, problem-solving to emotional regulation.
Particularly moving is her observation of "play-deprived" urban children who approach outdoor experiences with palpable urgency, making the most of limited time in nature. This reinforces the deep biological need for these experiences across all demographics and environments.
Whether you're a nanny, parent, or educator, this conversation will transform how you view those muddy clothes and risky climbing adventures. The next time a child spins in circles or jumps in puddles, you'll recognize it as essential neurological development rather than mere play. Ready to support the children in your life through meaningful outdoor experiences? Start by giving them time, materials, and the precious gift of stepping back.
Learn more about timbernook here: https://timbernook.com/
Purchase Angela's book, Balanced and Barefoot here: https://amzn.to/43vR3El
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Adventure Nannies On Air.
Today's episode was recordedlive during one of our Summit
Sessions as a part of our freeongoing educational webinar
series to support nannies andprofessional child care
providers to elevate theircareers and enhance their skills
.
If you like what you hear, youcan catch the full episode on
our YouTube channel or registerfor our next Summit Session at
AdventureNanniescom slash Summitdash Sessions.
(00:22):
Welcome to tonight's SummitSession.
I'm Regan Fulton, I'm theMarketing Director at Adventure
Nannies and I'll be tonight'shost, and we have the amazing
Angela Hanscom here.
Today's topic is one that I ampersonally super passionate
about.
If you've ever heard me talk,you are not going to be
surprised that I am personallysuper passionate about.
(00:43):
If you've ever heard me talk,you are not gonna be surprised
that I reached out to thisincredible person to tell us all
about the profound impact ofoutdoor play.
Taking care of children, as youguys know, really means that we
embrace the opportunities toexplore, learn and grow, and I
hope you know and if you don'talready, you're gonna learn
(01:04):
about how powerful it is to dothose things in the outdoor
world.
So Angela Hanscom is a truechampion for the importance of
outdoor play.
She's the visionary founder ofTimber Nook and has transformed
how we think how I personallythink I know about nature-based
experiences for children.
She's the acclaimed author ofBalanced and Barefoot, which is
(01:28):
the first book I recommend tonannies who want to learn more
about nature play, and it's abook that beautifully
illuminates the critical role ofoutdoor engagement in early
childhood development and reallyinspires families and educators
to foster environments wherechildren can move freely, take
healthy risks and developessential skills through joyful
exploration.
(01:49):
Today she's going to share someof her perspective, pastoral
strategies and invaluable advicehow we can all embrace the
power of outdoor play.
So get ready.
Welcome, angela.
Thank you for having meAbsolutely so.
I know this one wasn't on thelist, but I'm going to kick off
with a question just to get theconversation started.
(02:11):
When we were emailing earliertoday, I saw in your subject, or
in your signature line, thequote that if anybody in here
has ever been into apresentation of mine about
nature play, you probably haveseen, because it's been in my
slides, and that is that natureis the ultimate sensory
experience.
(02:31):
So to kick us off and we'lltalk a little bit more about
Timber Nook and your story, butjust tell us about that quote.
What does it mean to you, andwhy is it important enough that
it's in your subject line?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Well, it is part of my storybut I've worked in all different
settings and clearly anoccupational therapist will work
indoors with children.
So you know, when I startedthis work with Timberknock there
was not a lot of OTs outside,you know, in the woods treating
children or you know in giantmud puddles.
It was very much that we wouldbring swings indoors, we bring a
(03:05):
little box of sand inside andcall that sensory and we also
engineer our clinics to besensory, like we'll have a
balance beam with little plasticpickies on it and call that a
sensory experience.
And the more I did Timber Nookand I know like we're kind of
jumping ahead a little bit butthe more I realized that nature
(03:25):
was the ultimate sensoryexperience and what we see out
in the woods is you cannotreplicate in a clinic setting or
in a classroom setting.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
So tell us about that .
Like, how did you get from thatoccupational therapist clinical
setting, what was that journeylike to create Timber Nook and
to move away from that kind ofmore clinical, traditional
occupational?
Because that's you know, that'swhat I always say when I'm
giving my presentations.
I'm not the expert, I'm not anoccupational therapist, but this
lady she is, so you shouldlisten to her.
So I want to hear you know howdid you get from that clinical
(03:56):
setting into the nature play andtransition it there?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
That was kind of my dream, but God had other plans
for me, because just a series ofevents happened in my life that
I had no control over,basically.
And what happened next was Ikind of joined a mom's group,
because that was the thing to doat the time, to meet other moms
, and I had people asking mequestions.
They knew I was an occupationaltherapist and one of them's, my
(04:21):
daughter, is spinning incircles all the time.
You know, you're an OT.
Why is she doing that?
And I was like I don't know.
And then there was, you know, alittle boy that was having
trouble paying attention inpreschool and she was also like
why is he having trouble payingattention in preschool?
So it's just interestingquestions.
And I just kept payingattention.
And then my daughter turned five, finally, and it was time for
(04:44):
her to go to kindergarten.
And I remember thinking we metwith the teacher ahead of time
and I was a little nervous, youknow, like a new parent, that
your kid's finally going toschool.
But the teacher, she looked atus and she said you know, this
is not kindergarten, like youguys remember growing up.
She said this is going to bemore like first grade.
She said if your kids can't tietheir shoes, please put elastic
(05:07):
laces on or Velcro, or put youknow something, so that we don't
have to bother tying theirshoes.
She said, if they don't, youknow, if they have, we're going
to have a five minute snacksession, basically.
And she said, if that gets inthe way of curriculum, it will
(05:30):
be a working snack.
So they'll have to eat whilethey do their paperwork.
And then she said 15 minutesfor recess.
And she said, but when it snows, the leaves change color.
And I was like, oh gosh, I'mlike maybe to do with a pigment
in the leaf.
I was trying to remember from myscience classes in high school.
You know I didn't really go toschool for that, I you know it
really helped me reflect on, youknow, I'm not an
environmentalist, I was.
I'm not a naturalist or even ateacher, rather I, you know.
So I had to reflect on what ismy background and you know what?
(05:53):
Does occupational therapy haveanything to do with nature
programming?
And that's when, you know, Ireally started to pay attention
that the main occupation of achild is play, and outdoor play
is a particularly meaningfuloccupation.
That, if I asked you guys whatwas your fondest memories
growing up.
I bet most of you would saysomething about playing outdoors
(06:16):
.
But that particular occupationis really at risk.
And so the whole mission behindTimberneck like really over the
years, what I've learned is notreally a new idea it's really
to restore the occupation ofoutdoor play and to make it as
authentic as possible, andthat's why it's so therapeutic.
You know, it's true,neighborhood play there's a
(06:38):
mixture of ages.
It's a real play experience.
It's a child's choice.
It has to be their choice.
And once we start controllingand taking away that agency, we
really take away the therapeuticcomponents.
And that's kind of what we havedone with OT.
We've gone in the otherdirection, we've gotten so
protocol driven and we've takenaway a lot of the therapeutic
(06:58):
qualities of what we're doingwith children.
So it will lay the foundationfor a talk.
But basically what happenedafter that is I had a friend in
marketing and she said I thinkyou should do summer camps
because you're probably morelikely to get children dropped
off for the day.
And I was like summer camps,like I was not trained to run
summer camps, you know, usuallywe work one-on-one with children
(07:20):
or a small group of children.
So I was like I'll do one weekof summer camp and she's no, you
have to do three to marketyourself.
And at the time I had no ideawhat I was getting into, because
we're not, again, we're notused to directing a large group
of children, and I didn'trealize I was starting a
business.
I went to the town to ask for asign and they said no, you're
(07:40):
starting a business.
And so, again, one thing led tothe next.
They said no, you're starting abusiness.
And so again, one thing led tothe next.
I filled the camps up because itwas unique that a therapist was
running camps at an affordableprice and they were fun, like
the ideas were fun.
And so after the three weeks ofsummer camp, I was exhausted.
Again, I had no idea how muchwork it was to have that many
(08:02):
children at my house, and so I'mlike I'm never, ever doing that
again.
I was so tired.
But what happened was you know,something in my gut told me to
let's see what happens.
And I had four volunteers thathelped me from the university,
that were occupational therapystudents, because I thought what
a great mentorship for them tosee nature for its therapeutic
value.
(08:22):
And so those four OT studentswent back to university and I
had 14 volunteers the next year,and so then I had two teachers
reach out.
One was a wildlife ecologistand a science teacher, and then
the other one was she was anelementary teacher and she was
the one who said, hey, wouldn'tit be fun to do stories in the
(08:42):
woods?
For instance, we could read thestory Three Little Pigs and
then we could have Bales, youknow, we could reenact the story
, she said, at picnic tables.
And as a therapist I was likehow wouldn't it be neat to bring
, you know, real bales of hayout into the woods and you know
bricks and logs and you knowwolf masks, and so they have the
(09:06):
opportunity to build life-size,free little pig homes and, you
know, have hours to play thatand engage in muscles and senses
.
And so she was like, yes, andso that really shifted that
first summer, when I was bymyself with some helpers, I was
really much my ideas.
It was adult directedactivities.
They were fun, but it was, youknow, very different than the
shift of where we had a playexperience and the environment
(09:28):
was inspiration and then theymight not bring home the three
little pig homes, but they hadan experience designed to create
change in the child.
And so after that point everyyear I said I'll do it one more
year, and this was about 12years ago, I would say.
You said your oldest is 20.
Now, yeah, we're still going.
And so after that, whathappened was I had about three
(09:52):
years into it, I released mycamps in February, because here
in America you have to releaseyour summer camps way ahead of
time, and so I was willing to dofour weeks of summer camp.
I didn't want to do summercamps all summer long.
I'm like I'm not supposed to beworking here.
So I released those camps andthen what happened is in a
minute's time.
I had wait lists for all fourweeks and I was like I had two
(10:14):
parents call crying, which mademe feel guilty, and one's hey,
my kid got in last year butdidn't get in this year.
What are you going to do aboutthat?
And I was like I don't know.
And then I had an occupationaltherapist reach out and a
physical therapist asking ifthey could replicate the program
, because it was really uniquefor a profession at the time.
There was not really that manypeople out there doing anything
(10:36):
with therapy, and so that's whenI went and got business mentors
, because I had no businessexperience and they taught me
how to license the programTimber Nook, and Timber Nook
stands for timber is amongst thetrees and nook or cranny is
like a hidden place amongst thetrees, away from the adult world
and the fears of the adultworlds, where kids can be kids.
And so what happened after thatis, I was going to market in New
(10:59):
England because that was myplan, which keeps getting shot
out of the water, by the way andI wrote an article called why
Kids Fidget and it wentincredibly viral Again.
See how I had no control overthis.
So it got picked up by theWashington Post and then they
sold World Rights that Times ofIndia, jerusalem Post picked it
up, and then I did a TED Talkfor Johnson Johnson on their
(11:20):
main stage in front of 100,000people, and then the book Bounce
and Barefoot came about, andthat's how Timber Nook went to
Australia.
It's in the UK, throughoutCanada and the United States as
well.
And then really quick, 2017,there was a school knocking on
my door saying we want TimberNook in the schools and I said,
nope, we're not.
(11:40):
We're not doing that, that'snot the plan.
But clearly that was the plan,and so now we're in, we're going
to be in 10 schools and we'restarting to research them
because we've been in schoolslong enough.
It's hard to get in a schoolbecause you have to get the
entire culture on board.
When it gets in, it really doesaffect the culture, and so
that's what we're researchingwith the University of New
(12:02):
Hampshire.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I can't wait till that research comes out and then
I'll bring it to my son'sschool.
Yes, yeah, because that's, thatis so wonderful, that is such
an incredible.
So the TED Talk I don't think Irealized that the TED Talk was
before the book, because that's,I've seen the yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
The first TED Talk.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
OK, okay, okay, there we go I was really pregnant for
that one.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Luckily no one saw that.
Just Johnson, Just Johnson andJohnson people.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Okay, okay, that is so incredible.
And you, like you said you knowI'm sure you've heard this in
it, but all the things that yousay and all of the you know you
said I'm not an ecologist, youknow they can be.
What I love the most about whatyou do is that you teach those
(12:50):
of us who really love to teachkids and love that you know, and
I know it's grown for you, I'msure and those of us who do love
and love to answer thatquestion for the five-year-old
about why the color change teachus why that's so important and
why we're drawn to it, because Ithink so many nannies are drawn
to this.
You know outdoor play idea, butdon't know why.
And you give us the why.
So I love that.
So you know.
For those who don't know, youknow what really is the basis of
(13:12):
, why is it so important.
You know we've kind of dancedaround it.
You know that you told thosestories a little bit, but really
what does outdoor play do forkids developmentally?
And you know why is it soimportant?
What have you found throughyour research?
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, absolutely so.
There's two kind of majorthings.
One is, when you step outdoors,you have more ability to move
in rapid ways, and what'shappening is kids are sitting
for an average of nine hours aday in a chair is the most
recent research I sat in on.
And what's interesting aboutthat is it can cause a lot of
(13:45):
issues if you're constantlybeing restricted, right.
So certain muscles thatshouldn't shorten will shorten,
and certain muscles thatshouldn't lengthen will lengthen
, and so it will affect yourposture, but it's going to
affect your gait.
And the other thing is, youknow, if kids are constantly in
this upright position, they'renot moving in the ways they
should.
So they really need at leastthree hours of outdoor playtime
(14:07):
a day.
They need to spin in circles,they need to go upside down,
they need to move in reallypretty rapid ways, because
inside the inner ear are littlehair cells and there's fluid in
there, and when you move invigorous ways, what that does is
it develops what we call thevestibular sense, and that sense
is key to all the other senses.
So if that's underdevelopedwhich we're finding a lot of
(14:30):
kids are walking around with anunderdeveloped vestibular sense
it can affect what we callsensory integration and that is
really like organization of thebrain so you can pay attention
in the classroom.
So just let's break it downjust a little bit of what that
sense does.
Again, that's plenty ofmovement opportunities.
The first thing it does is ithelps you to know where your
(14:50):
body is in space.
So it helps a child to get frompoint A to point B safely, to
get on and off playgroundequipment effectively and to
stay in their seat withoutfalling out.
So what's happening is some kidsare literally falling out of
their chairs in school now, andteachers are reporting that kids
are starting to run into eachother more frequently, and so
this is a real red flag if kidsare starting to fall from an
(15:14):
early age.
And so the way we treat that astherapists is we will have them
.
You remember I talked about theastronaut board is we'll
position them on that astronautboard and we spin them in all
different ways.
So we'll have them lay on theirside, we'll have them sit
upright, we'll use swings Samething.
We'll put them on the swing indifferent ways and spin them so
(15:36):
that they have a very good senseof body awareness when they
navigate their environment.
So the same is true withastronauts that's why Mary K
Weir worked with NASA is theyget in a machine before they go
in outer space that moves themin all different directions.
So when they go into ananti-gravity environment they
can really have a good sense ofbody awareness as they're
(15:58):
navigating those environments.
So we do the same thing fortreatment and what's happening
is sometimes I'll see a childspinning in circles, which is
really healthy for them, andI'll hear an adult say stop,
you're going to get dizzy or getdown from that rock, you're
going to get hurt.
But if we keep them from movingthose different ways, the
adults actually become thebarrier to that neurological
(16:20):
development that needs to happenso they can be safer and more
capable in their environment.
So you know things like swingson the playground, all that
stuff you know.
I remember spinning on swingswhen I was a kid, some of those
things.
I'm hearing that they'rebanning swings or they're being
restricted on how they useswings to keep them safe.
(16:41):
But as therapists we reallywant to work with the
educational field to promotebeing able to move in those
different ways so that they canhave a very capable neurological
system.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Oh, that drives me nuts to hear that that they're
banning, because that's 100%.
And you know I'm just going toput a blanket on.
I feel like so much of whatI've done in my own practice is
inspired by your work, so youknow everything you're saying.
I'm like, yes, I used to run anature preschool for my backyard
, my background, and I used to.
You know, when kids were evenupset, I'd be like, okay, let's
(17:15):
go swing on the swing, go swingon your belly for a little bit.
You know, even as like asoothing mechanism, cause that's
the swings are my favorite tool.
So that is, that's incredible.
Can you tell because I knowI've heard it about the best, or
about the proprioceptive sensetoo, in the underdeveloped
perceptive sense, cause I knowthat's another one that a lot of
(17:36):
you know?
We all know about all of theregular five senses and that's
crazy that kids are falling outof chairs.
But what is the?
I know it's proprioceptive, butcan you tell us a little bit
about that?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
and what is?
Speaker 1 (17:47):
going on with kids in that sense as well.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
So basically what's happening is OTs will talk a lot
about the importance of heavywork, right?
So it's like push-pullactivities and if you look at
outdoor play, kids are naturallygetting a lot of heavy work.
So if I'm watching kids inTimber Nook, they're dragging
(18:10):
like pallets across the woods tobuild a fort, or they're
picking up big logs.
Or if they're building a dam,same thing.
You're picking up heavy rocksand all of that.
What it does is it gives nicesenses to the joints and muscles
and that helps you to knowwhere your limbs are in relation
to each other.
It helps with body awarenessand also helps with knowing how
much force to use when playinggames like tag, without hitting
too hard or holding a chick,without squeezing the poor chick
(18:31):
or the frog.
We do this sometimes Kids willcatch frogs and they're
squeezing the frog too much.
So that sense is developedthrough a lot of heavy work and
we're at the point where we'rebanning tag because kids are
getting more and more aggressive.
But we really want to understandwhy are so many kids presenting
with this regulation issue?
(18:52):
And again, the way we treatthat is through heavy work and
so climbing trees, all of thosethings used to give you nice
sensation to the joints andmuscles and helps you know where
your limbs are and reallyshrink to each other and again
how much force you use whenplaying games like tag.
So if kids are just going, youknow, pretty sedentary, they're
(19:12):
not getting a lot of heavy work.
You have short 20 minute recesssessions.
You're just not getting as muchbig body work.
And then you go home and you'reon electronics.
You're not, you know, a lot ofthose electronics.
You're not getting resistanceto the joints and muscles, so
that system is going to beaffected if they're not getting
as much outdoor playtime.
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
What does that look like?
You know?
I think it's clear.
You know, falling out of yourchair and not being able to stay
upright is like a cleartranslation to an adult, but in
terms of the proprioceptive andlike TAG, translating to like
adulthood.
And if that sense doesn'tdevelop, come from that.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, Well, so the vestibular we will advocate for
older generations to keep moving.
So a lot of us, if we're thisis not for perception, this is
vestibular, but if we're notmoving enough, this one reason
why we don't tolerate rides whenwe get older.
So I can't do spinny ridesanymore.
Yeah, Like, a lot of us justaren't moving as much and so we
(20:11):
might not go on the spinny ridesor the roller coasters anymore.
You feel nauseous.
And with the really oldergeneration, we want them to keep
moving because we want toprevent falls and hip fractures.
And so you know, water,aerobics, all of that stuff is
really important to keep thatsystem strong.
And then the proprioceptionsystem I actually don't I'm not
(20:33):
sure how that relates to adults,except they probably don't know
their own strength, Like youmight be.
They might be like playfighting with someone, like when
you're older, you know, liketeasing, and they're like it's
just their regulation is offwith force.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Oh, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, I'm sure if they're close talkers.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I would say.
The only other thing I canthink of is like having really
bad handwriting because notknowing how hard to push on a
pencil, and like neverdeveloping good handwriting or
anything like that.
The only one I can think of offthe top of my head.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah, and I think maybe close talkers.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
For sure.
I say there was a good questionthat I wanted to drop in here.
You were talking about heavywork.
How can you talk about heavywork in terms of how similar it
is to the more general conceptof gross motor development and
like gross motor work?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
So we kind of break it down by the senses, you know.
So there's a vestibularperception, the visual tactile
smell, all's a vestibularperception, the visual tactile
smell, all that stuff, and thengross motor in general relies on
having a good vestibular senseand having good proprioceptive
sense.
But you know, for coordination,knowing where your body is in
(21:47):
space as you navigate yourenvironment, that's really key.
So I would say body awarenessand safety are the biggest
things to pay attention to.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Amazing.
I'm going to save this questionfor the end because I think
it's a little big.
Besides just being fun, likewhat are the most important ways
the outdoor play really helpschildren develop, like their
bodies, minds, emotions, wholebody development.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah, oh my gosh.
So when I do speakingengagements, it's usually at
least 90 minutes for the keynote, and then it's like another
whole workshop where they dolike a turmeric experience, and
then we analyze the therapeuticbenefits and it's every aspect
of the growing child is workedon.
So let's say, for instance,children are in giant mud pedals
and they're just catching frogs.
(22:37):
Often I have an image thatshows children that are playing
with a little box of sand andthere might be a gardening thing
going on in the box of sand,and then there's kids in these
giant mud pedals catching frogs.
And so I say now, both areconsidered a sensory experience.
However, if our true objectiveis to create change to the
(22:58):
senses, which one do you thinkwill be more likely to do that?
And so if you really startthinking about it and you take a
step back, the audience willoften point out so many things.
First of all, in the giant mudpuddles it's a whole body
sensory experience.
Right, it's head to toe muddy.
I'm sure it's not even underthe mud puddle.
(23:19):
It probably smells differentfor different people.
There's real frogs in there,and so you have that component
that's super meaningful tochildren.
And then there's endless playopportunities.
So I might pick up a stick andhave a hundred playances, or
they're called visualaffordances.
So I might have like 50 ways toplay with that and then you
(23:41):
might have 50 different ways.
We might have some overlap, butI'm going to inspire you to
play with that stick in ways youmight have not thought of, and
so that leads to more creativeplay.
So there's just endlessopportunities for play sensory
development, motor, cognitive.
There's communication withother children like connection
in person is huge too.
(24:02):
All these kids are going home.
I have teenagers now so I knowthey tell me stories where the
kids go home and they're onscreens and it's, you know,
sometimes the only interactionthese teenagers have is they're
like on screens with someoneelse.
So from an early age,connecting with other people and
having the social skills tostand up for yourself and, you
(24:25):
know, set boundaries with otherchildren, to ask for something,
to negotiate, to practicegetting frustrated with other
children, you know, likeregulating emotions, all the
good stuff happens out there andit's hard to replicate in a
classroom setting.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
That's amazing and I can just only imagine how
well-rounded your children areas teenagers and young adults,
having the experience they did.
And you know they did and youknow you mentioned so many of
the benefits and really talkingabout them, I think that a lot
(25:04):
of nannies understand it.
Do you have any?
You know nuggets or like evenone liners?
You know ways that nannies cantalk to the parents they work
for?
Because I think that's a bigstruggle that a lot of nannies
have is they know how importantit is to get outside with their
kids and get messy and do all ofthis nature play.
But they also answer to parentswho sometimes don't understand
(25:24):
what the developmental andobviously you know I always say
you know, throw the expertsunder the bus first, give them
the books, give them thearticles, send them these things
.
But you know, are there any?
Just you know real tips thatyou can give that are easy ways
to talk about the benefits andwhy it really you know why it's
okay to be messy and why it'sokay to.
(25:44):
You know take risks andpossibly get hurt and why that's
so beneficial for their kids.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Especially in the face of fear, because I think
that's what the nannies arefacing is the fear that the
parents have because they're notthere.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah.
So there's two things.
The first one is I want toexplain why it's important to
get messy from a little likefrom the sensory standpoint,
just so you guys have thatnugget.
And then I want to talk aboutwhy, like how to address it with
the parents.
So the first one is one thingthat we're noticing is a lot of
kids don't like that tactilesense like that.
(26:18):
That can feel really aversivefor some children, like they
might not like glue on theirfingers, they might want to, not
want to get dirty.
And the way that we havetraditionally treated that as
therapists is we'll use abrushing protocol.
You probably some of you haveheard of this.
It's like a surgical brush andthey brush the child Like and
it's really just deep pressure,and what that does is that
(26:40):
neurologically overrides thatlight touch sense that can feel
aversive for some children andintegrates that sense.
And so I was thinking aboutthis again kids playing outdoors
and if you think, picture achild on the beach, let's say,
and they're building asandcastle.
Well, they're getting thatlight touch sense, but they're
digging in the dirt, which islike that deep pressure at the
(27:02):
same time, and because they areable to get deep enough, that
helps to actually override thatlight touch sense and integrate
that sense.
It's the same with climbingtrees Like that sap might feel
gross but because you're gettingdeep pressure while you're
getting that light touch sense,that helps to integrate that
light touch sense.
(27:22):
You know what's insane is.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
So just a little bit of background.
I'm autistic and I actuallyreally don't like sand.
I like the light touch of sand,but week of vacation at the
Atlantic ocean in South Carolinaand it's like that denser sand
that you can build really nicesandcastles.
I love to go dig in the sandand build sandcastles and it
doesn't bother me when I'm doingthat and I've never thought
(27:45):
about that.
But you just said that and thatmakes sense because the deep
touch is like overpowering theitchiness of the sand for me.
So that's incredible and, yeah,that's so real.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yeah, and so if you compare that again to a little
box of sand, the problem withthat is you can't get deep
enough right, so you're justgetting that tactile sensation
but you're not creating actualchange to the senses.
So again, providing outdoor playopportunities that actually
create change to the senses iskey, and so that's one thing,
that connecting the dots foreducators and for parents is
(28:21):
really eye-opening, because onceyou know you're like oh, this
is, I'm not, you know it's hardto go back.
The other one is, as a healthcare professional, I was always
taught in my ethics classes todo no harm, and we're at the
point where actually causingharm to children by restricting
them so much and taking awayenough outdoor playtime it is
(28:42):
affecting development in prettyextreme ways.
So I always talk to parentslike we can't keep doing what
we're doing.
They really need this more thananything else.
You know well there's otherthings that I report to, but you
know outdoor play is reallycritical to development and so I
think just laying it out thereof how things like development
(29:02):
is changing is also reallyeye-opening to parents.
So we do a lot of connectingthe dots here at Timber Nook for
different communication toolsto really educate people on the
importance.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
I love that.
So, yeah, this is what yourchild's doing and this is what
it's doing for them, andconnecting those dots that is a
great tip.
I love that.
I'm going to shift a little bitand I'm going to use first the
questions that were dropped inthe chat before we transition
into ways that nannies canencourage more outdoor
(29:36):
exploration in city spaces,because a couple people brought
up and I want to ask first abouthow Timber Nook interacts Does
Timber Nook work in any urbanareas?
And the questions asked, bothschools that don't have access
to nature how do you work withthat?
How are school settingshandling considerations that
(29:58):
have led to safe, as meaningindoors behind a locked door and
needing to outdoor play inschools, and so both that safety
issue I don't know if you'vecome up across it at all with
(30:19):
Timber Nook in terms of like,how do we make safe outside and
just how do we, you know, interms of access to the outdoor
in those urban areas?
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, so all right, I'm going to start with the
first question, as far as TimberNook.
Working with urban settingslike the Timber Nook, like
timber, like it has to be withinnature.
So we do have, we do want topartner with schools that are
from cities, like right now wehave kids that drive an hour and
they do field trips at TimberNook, but we feel like there's
(30:52):
got to be property closer andit's just really knocking on the
right doors and trying to findpartnerships.
Really, we're motivated to tryto figure out because I feel
like they need it more thananyone and when they do come for
a field trip, they appear to bevery play deprived.
It's like a very.
I don't know how to explaintheir play, but there's a sense
of urgency about it.
They know they have a limitedtime.
(31:13):
It's like a very.
I don't know how to explaintheir play, but there's a sense
of urgency about it.
They know they have a limitedtime.
It makes me want to cry.
It's like they have three hoursand they're going to make the
best of it, but it's very urgent, and so it's very clear that
these children need moreopportunities for something like
Timber Nook.
There are other programs thatare designed in a city, but I
still feel like it's differentthan when you're in the woods
(31:34):
and you're building societies intheir own worlds, and so, again
, increasing access, workingwith partnerships, is really
important.
But there are also likeadventure playgrounds, which are
probably the closest you canget to Timberknock.
There's no woods but they atleast have loose parts play.
It's a completely differentprogram but they do have some
overlap where the adults do stepback and allow for
(31:58):
child-directed playopportunities.
As far as safety goes, I'm notquite sure I understand the
question, but we have our ownsafety protocols that we have to
go through.
We are a licensed program sodifferent organizations and
schools will adopt TimberNetprogramming and have their own
safety protocols that theyfollow.
We're just a specific licensedprogram, so different
organizations and schools willadopt TimberNet programming and
have their own safety protocolsthat they follow.
We're just a specific licenseprogram and we mandate training
(32:20):
to stay really strong and theydo the HIST, like hazards versus
age, like appropriate risktaking, and then we train them
on what's reasonable risk taking, what is not reasonable risk
taking out there, and when to goand when not to go in, kind of
thing.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
So absolutely, yeah, I feel like you almost have a
little bit more awareness whenyou're out and about because you
don't have the false sense ofsecurity of the indoors and,
yeah, you're more aware of yoursurroundings.
So thank you so much for that.
Is there any you know just interms of how nannies who might
live inside obviously gettingout to where you know, getting
(32:56):
out into woods, but you know ifit's not in the woods but just
when you can get those littlepockets of outside time or
little pockets?
Are there any ways that nanniescan encourage kind of that free
outdoor play when they live ina more urban setting?
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah.
So if you want to read evenmore, the book does go into
detail and ideas and stuff.
But just to give you a sample,you can use different adult type
materials and bring it outdoorsand set up a little bit of an
invitation to play kind of thing.
If you have puddles, like Ilove puddles because you can
place something like kitchenwareright near the puddle and right
(33:33):
away what you're doing isyou're using what we call shaped
affordance theory, so you'reusing the mud puddle right next
to kitchenware and they startexperimenting with those two
objects together.
The other thing is like olderchildren or even little children
.
You know, fort building is kindof a classic pastime.
You know again, these are alittle bit older.
(33:54):
But you know having materialslike old curtains, you know you
can get from garage sales orGoodwill lumber pallets, we use
milk crates, bricks, but soevery turmeric site has a Home
Depot.
So it's this little Home Depotarea where they can pull
materials because they'reconstantly building.
We have our own actualcurriculum that comes out too.
(34:17):
So there's a staging areathat's separate from the Home
Depot, but it's almost like yourpreschool should have building
blocks.
Every Timberlake site hasbuilding materials.
So having access to thingswhere they can build is really
key.
And then the other thing is theother children are part of the
environment, so having mixedages or having multiple children
(34:38):
actually to me makes lifeeasier.
They inspire each other to playin different ways and
encouraging parents to dosomething similar Don't just do
a play date.
Parents are getting really busyand overscheduling their kids
that they're not prioritizingsetting up time to have kids
over for the entire day and soreally encouraging them to get
outdoors, invite kids over forthe entire day, is really
(35:01):
important for socialization andthere's a lot of lonely kids.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
It's really sad, I think the thing that you just
like really didn't say right,there was set up a structured
game and get up this exactactivity and to do that, you
know, like I think, even justplay date, scared nanny
sometimes, and there are reasonsto besides this uh, parrots, do
you know?
But you don't have to have allthese activities and you know,
(35:30):
pinterest, perfect play date.
That's not a play date.
Just giving them the materialsand the environment to make
their own fun is all you got todo.
That's really what's better forthem.
That's what I heard right there, so I'm going to always
remember that as a mom too.
So amazing.
There was another question thatI wanted to ask, and you
(35:54):
mentioned your girls areteenagers now and they're coming
back with their stories, and soI think this is one that you
know as kids grow and they areteenagers.
And then this question wasabout caregivers and adults as
well, but then also teenagers,because teenagers.
How can we make outdoor playmore enjoyable and accessible
(36:18):
for adults caregivers who aretrying to get outside with their
kids, or the teenagers who aremaybe resistant to it, so that
way they can support them andkeep them safe and continue to
get outside throughout as theygrow?
Not necessarily how do we getthe kids outside, but how do we
get outside as adults and makethat fun.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, we've been having many requests over the
years to do adult experiencesand teen experiences because
it's like permission to playlike that and it's hard to get
that many people in the placewith that kind of materials.
So I think that, yes, they canbenefit from it as much as the
adults.
(36:56):
We're actually going to do ateen experience this summer
where it's a glow-in-the-darklike nighttime warrior camp
where they have, you know, abattle and stuff out there and
they're super excited about it.
My daughter's 20 and she'salready talking about it, whose
team they're going to be on andhow they're going to steal from
the other group when they're notlooking.
But I do think that we need toremember that teens especially
(37:19):
need to play and adults.
I'm very concerned for ourteenagers because of some of the
stories I've been hearing andhaving girls that are that age
and the socialization pieces arereally fascinating to me.
They're just not able to liketalk to people in person.
It's funny.
My girls went to private schooland then they went to public
(37:40):
school when they went to highschool and it was like night and
day.
They're both very friendly andwould say hi to people and
people are like you know, it'sjust very interesting.
They think you know what'swrong with you or they'll pull
out their phone so they don'thave to look at you in the face.
So I think you know giving themopportunities for this kind of
(38:01):
play.
It's just so important from ayoung age.
We have gone into some schoolswhere the young kids they get
Timber Nook all the way upthrough and you can.
It shows, you can see thedifference in those kids that
get play from a young age tothose that didn't have it and
they just struggle.
They like don't know what to dowith themselves, they're
uncomfortable.
So I think the answer I'mreally getting at is those that
you can do this early with andwhat you guys really matter is
(38:24):
like getting them to play andbeing huge advocates for play
from a young age.
It really makes a world ofdifference.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Absolutely, that is so amazing.
So, moving on to do you haveany favorite stories that you
can share that really justexemplify how outdoor play has
changed a child development,whether it's been one of those
kids that you got to see grow up, go through the program.
You know any just like storythat really drives home the
(38:54):
power of outdoor play and how itcan change a child's
development?
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Yeah, this story is actually about the importance of
adults stepping back, which isactually the hardest piece and
probably one of the mostimportant to Timbernaut.
We're so used to being so closeto the kids and what we learned
over the years is if we're tooclose to kids let's say,
building a fort the kids willstart turning to the adults for
constant reassurance.
Is this okay, or can you dothis for me?
(39:20):
Or there's more tattling goingon?
But we learned that when wereally step back and we actually
have a toddler program whereadults come with their toddlers
and we also try to pull themback a little bit you can't hide
on toddlers, but we do try toreduce adult presence out there,
because the kids really need tolearn to initiate their own
play ideas.
(39:40):
They're so used to beingentertained and everything's
done for them, and so there wasthis one time where, for me, it
was a little hard to watch, butit was a really powerful
reminder on the importance ofstepping back, and this was, I
think the kids were six or seven.
It was a field trip and theywere building a teepee and there
(40:01):
was a group of girls and all Iheard was a boy went up to them
and said you need to let me play.
And right away we were trainingtoo.
So when you're training youwant things to go nice.
But something told me to let'sjust see what happens.
And the little boy had scissors.
So we're all like, oh my gosh,what's going to happen?
So the girls ended up forming achain with their hands and
(40:22):
defending their fort and saying,no, we won't.
And so the boy he cut a pieceof their twine and they had gems
in their fort and so he tooktheir gems and he took off
running.
And so what happened was thegirls ended up chasing him in
the woods over and over again,like they must have done three
or four laps around the entirewoods, and one of the providers
(40:45):
was like, okay, well, somethingis bound to happen.
And so, sure enough, he gottired and he was frustrated.
So he's like, fine, just takethe gems.
And gave it back to them.
The girls went back to theirfort, redecorated their teepee
and their singing, because theywere triumphant.
They got their gems back andthe boy was interesting as he
went over to a tree and hecrossed his arms and he was
(41:08):
sulking, was upset.
One of the little girls leftthe fort after a couple minutes
and went down and sat rightbeside him and we, out of
respect, we again give themspace, so we couldn't hear what
they were saying, but we couldhear the noise level.
And so she starts calmlytalking to him and then right
away he's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and so she puts her hand
(41:29):
up like talk to the hand typething, and so then he calms down
for a second, but then he yellsagain, and so she puts her hand
up like talk to the hand typething, and so then he calms down
for a second, but then he yellsagain, and so she, again she
does the hand thing gesture, andso what was interesting is his
voice comes down and he startscalmly talking to her, and then
all we saw is she waves him onto play, and so that little boy
(41:50):
was included.
For the rest of the week it wasno longer an issue.
Now.
If we had gone in right fromthe beginning and said you need
to let him play, whatopportunities do you think they
would have missed out on?
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Yeah, and they probably wouldn't have played.
Yeah, he probably wouldn't haveever really wanted to play and
really belonged, and that's thatis so incredible, and yeah
right.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
So, like he, they solved their own problem Right.
So they learned conflictresolution through play, which
is the best way to practicethose skills.
And you know, like he probablylearned, maybe yelling isn't the
best way to be included.
You know, ok, sometimes youhave to practice, you have to
test things out, test outdifferent theories of what works
(42:33):
, what doesn't.
He was allowed to get included.
You know, okay, sometimes youhave to practice, you have to
test things out, test outdifferent theories of what works
, what doesn't.
He was allowed to get upset.
No one was telling him to bequiet, like he got frustrated.
The girls learned to defendtheir, set boundaries with them.
They defended their fort.
That was for my girls growingup.
I was so like thankful thatthey were able to set boundaries
with people growing up.
And then she practiced likeempathy, like something you have
(42:59):
to just experience.
She practiced communicationskills with them, patience, like
she waited till he calmed downand then he was authentically
included and so it was no longeran issue.
He could have resented them andthey could have resented him if
we had told, forced it and madeit not a choice.
And so, because they decidedand they worked it out
themselves, it was no longer anissue.
(43:19):
So I often think like how oftendo we do that?
How often do we step in toosoon and we, we do it for them
and they don't learn those basiccommunication problem solving
skills that are best donethrough play.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
that, yeah even I was thinking you know, he wore
himself out too.
He probably was easier to talkto after he wasn't so tired too.
Yeah, exactly, that is soincredible.
Well, besides that momentbecause I feel like that one
could have been the answer tothis too what is the most
rewarding part of seeingchildren thrive and spending
time in outdoors throughout yourcareer?
Speaker 2 (43:53):
rewarding part of seeing children thrive and
spending time in outdoorsthroughout your career.
Yeah, I think it's super fun towatch the older kids like that
have done Timber for so long andthey take play to a whole
different level.
They create societies and theirown worlds out there.
There was one time where Iheard a horn blow and like kids
came running from all over thedifferent parts of the woods and
this girl had a feathered maskand she's your top spy, top
(44:13):
commander and started pointingthese hierarchies.
And this girl had a featheredmask and she's your top spy, top
commander and started pointingthese hierarchies and they were
basically going to war.
It was like really they weretrying to capture the flag.
Basically they were trying tosteal gems from each other.
But it's really fun to watchbecause those are the memories
that my girls remember growingup of the best memories growing
up and they learned you knowconfidence and you know they
(44:35):
know who they are.
They don't struggle with anysense of who am I as a person
and just really friendly, nicepeople but very courageous.
I think being able to play thatway and overcoming fears in a
playful way made them moreadventurous.
Like they dirt bike now, mydaughter played hockey with all
(44:56):
boys for a long time and thenplayed in like college and yeah.
So it's neat to see them lateron go off for snowmobiling for
50 miles by themselves and beconfident, capable, wholesome
adventurers, and they stay outof trouble, which is really nice
.
So it's like giving them theright kind of risk taking.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
So yeah, so you've got the case studies that it
works now, yeah, I love it.
Well, before we let you go, youknow, obviously, Barefoot and
Balanced.
If you don't have, if youhaven't read it yet, I've got
somebody.
There we go.
(45:37):
If you have not read Barefootand Balanced yet, please do I
actually.
I was looking for my copy beforewe started and then I realized
that I've lent it out to some.
Well, mine's lent out to afriend right now.
So I'm like, oh, I guess I needto get a few more copies to
always make sure I've got one inbackup, because mine is all
marked up and well loved.
It is an absolutely incrediblebook.
(45:57):
We'll make sure that the linkis in the show notes.
I know you mentioned likeyou're getting in with schools
and looking for thosepartnerships, so I just wanted
to ask if there is any nannieshere who see a need in their
community, how do they get intouch with Timber Nook, get you
to come to their nanny kid'sschool, or if they know of a
plot of land in an urban areathat you know Timber Nook could
(46:20):
come to, possibly, how do theyconnect with you and your
organization to help spread thegoodness of nature play?
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Yeah, so yeah, if you go on our website, you can see
that we do certify schools to doTimber Nook and it's a specific
kind of training, and then wealso do Timber Nook Providership
, where you know it's anindividual organization that
wants to run communityprogramming, like homeschool
programming, summer camps, nightexperiences, but like anything
(46:48):
that's for the community toddlerprogramming.
So they can check that out andjust reach out to us with
questions as well.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Amazing.
Yes, I know nannies have askedme how to start their own nature
, so I'm like go get Timber Nookcertified.
So if you are one of those whohave dreamed of it, definitely
check it out.
Well, it was so lovely to haveyou here, angela.
Thank you so much, thank you,thank you everybody.
Welcome to Adventure Nannies On Air.
Today's episode was recordedlive during one of our Summit
Sessions as a part of our freeongoing educational webinar
series to support nannies andprofessional child care
providers to elevate theircareers and enhance their skills
.
If you like what you hear, youcan catch the full episode on
our YouTube channel or registerfor our next Summit Session at
AdventureNanniescom slash Summitdash Sessions.
(00:22):
Welcome to tonight's SummitSession.
I'm Regan Fulton, I'm theMarketing Director at Adventure
Nannies and I'll be tonight'shost, and we have the amazing
Angela Hanscom here.
Today's topic is one that I ampersonally super passionate
about.
If you've ever heard me talk,you are not going to be
surprised that I am personallysuper passionate about.
(00:43):
If you've ever heard me talk,you are not gonna be surprised
that I reached out to thisincredible person to tell us all
about the profound impact ofoutdoor play.
Taking care of children, as youguys know, really means that we
embrace the opportunities toexplore, learn and grow, and I
hope you know and if you don'talready, you're gonna learn
(01:04):
about how powerful it is to dothose things in the outdoor
world.
So Angela Hanscom is a truechampion for the importance of
outdoor play.
She's the visionary founder ofTimber Nook and has transformed
how we think how I personallythink I know about nature-based
experiences for children.
She's the acclaimed author ofBalanced and Barefoot, which is
(01:28):
the first book I recommend tonannies who want to learn more
about nature play, and it's abook that beautifully
illuminates the critical role ofoutdoor engagement in early
childhood development and reallyinspires families and educators
to foster environments wherechildren can move freely, take
healthy risks and developessential skills through joyful
exploration.
(01:49):
Today she's going to share someof her perspective, pastoral
strategies and invaluable advicehow we can all embrace the
power of outdoor play.
So get ready.
Welcome, angela.
Thank you for having meAbsolutely so.
I know this one wasn't on thelist, but I'm going to kick off
with a question just to get theconversation started.
(02:11):
When we were emailing earliertoday, I saw in your subject, or
in your signature line, thequote that if anybody in here
has ever been into apresentation of mine about
nature play, you probably haveseen, because it's been in my
slides, and that is that natureis the ultimate sensory
experience.
(02:31):
So to kick us off and we'lltalk a little bit more about
Timber Nook and your story, butjust tell us about that quote.
What does it mean to you, andwhy is it important enough that
it's in your subject line?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Well, it is part of my storybut I've worked in all different
settings and clearly anoccupational therapist will work
indoors with children.
So you know, when I startedthis work with Timberknock there
was not a lot of OTs outside,you know, in the woods treating
children or you know in giantmud puddles.
It was very much that we wouldbring swings indoors, we bring a
(03:05):
little box of sand inside andcall that sensory and we also
engineer our clinics to besensory, like we'll have a
balance beam with little plasticpickies on it and call that a
sensory experience.
And the more I did Timber Nookand I know like we're kind of
jumping ahead a little bit butthe more I realized that nature
(03:25):
was the ultimate sensoryexperience and what we see out
in the woods is you cannotreplicate in a clinic setting or
in a classroom setting.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
So tell us about that .
Like, how did you get from thatoccupational therapist clinical
setting, what was that journeylike to create Timber Nook and
to move away from that kind ofmore clinical, traditional
occupational?
Because that's you know, that'swhat I always say when I'm
giving my presentations.
I'm not the expert, I'm not anoccupational therapist, but this
lady she is, so you shouldlisten to her.
So I want to hear you know howdid you get from that clinical
(03:56):
setting into the nature play andtransition it there?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
That was kind of my dream, but God had other plans
for me, because just a series ofevents happened in my life that
I had no control over,basically.
And what happened next was Ikind of joined a mom's group,
because that was the thing to doat the time, to meet other moms
, and I had people asking mequestions.
They knew I was an occupationaltherapist and one of them's, my
(04:21):
daughter, is spinning incircles all the time.
You know, you're an OT.
Why is she doing that?
And I was like I don't know.
And then there was, you know, alittle boy that was having
trouble paying attention inpreschool and she was also like
why is he having trouble payingattention in preschool?
So it's just interestingquestions.
And I just kept payingattention.
And then my daughter turned five, finally, and it was time for
(04:44):
her to go to kindergarten.
And I remember thinking we metwith the teacher ahead of time
and I was a little nervous, youknow, like a new parent, that
your kid's finally going toschool.
But the teacher, she looked atus and she said you know, this
is not kindergarten, like youguys remember growing up.
She said this is going to bemore like first grade.
She said if your kids can't tietheir shoes, please put elastic
(05:07):
laces on or Velcro, or put youknow something, so that we don't
have to bother tying theirshoes.
She said, if they don't, youknow, if they have, we're going
to have a five minute snacksession, basically.
And she said, if that gets inthe way of curriculum, it will
(05:30):
be a working snack.
So they'll have to eat whilethey do their paperwork.
And then she said 15 minutesfor recess.
And she said, but when it snows, the leaves change color.
And I was like, oh gosh, I'mlike maybe to do with a pigment
in the leaf.
I was trying to remember from myscience classes in high school.
You know I didn't really go toschool for that, I you know it
really helped me reflect on, youknow, I'm not an
environmentalist, I was.
I'm not a naturalist or even ateacher, rather I, you know.
So I had to reflect on what ismy background and you know what?
(05:53):
Does occupational therapy haveanything to do with nature
programming?
And that's when, you know, Ireally started to pay attention
that the main occupation of achild is play, and outdoor play
is a particularly meaningfuloccupation.
That, if I asked you guys whatwas your fondest memories
growing up.
I bet most of you would saysomething about playing outdoors
(06:16):
.
But that particular occupationis really at risk.
And so the whole mission behindTimberneck like really over the
years, what I've learned is notreally a new idea it's really
to restore the occupation ofoutdoor play and to make it as
authentic as possible, andthat's why it's so therapeutic.
You know, it's true,neighborhood play there's a
(06:38):
mixture of ages.
It's a real play experience.
It's a child's choice.
It has to be their choice.
And once we start controllingand taking away that agency, we
really take away the therapeuticcomponents.
And that's kind of what we havedone with OT.
We've gone in the otherdirection, we've gotten so
protocol driven and we've takenaway a lot of the therapeutic
(06:58):
qualities of what we're doingwith children.
So it will lay the foundationfor a talk.
But basically what happenedafter that is I had a friend in
marketing and she said I thinkyou should do summer camps
because you're probably morelikely to get children dropped
off for the day.
And I was like summer camps,like I was not trained to run
summer camps, you know, usuallywe work one-on-one with children
(07:20):
or a small group of children.
So I was like I'll do one weekof summer camp and she's no, you
have to do three to marketyourself.
And at the time I had no ideawhat I was getting into, because
we're not, again, we're notused to directing a large group
of children, and I didn'trealize I was starting a
business.
I went to the town to ask for asign and they said no, you're
(07:40):
starting a business.
And so, again, one thing led tothe next.
They said no, you're starting abusiness.
And so again, one thing led tothe next.
I filled the camps up because itwas unique that a therapist was
running camps at an affordableprice and they were fun, like
the ideas were fun.
And so after the three weeks ofsummer camp, I was exhausted.
Again, I had no idea how muchwork it was to have that many
(08:02):
children at my house, and so I'mlike I'm never, ever doing that
again.
I was so tired.
But what happened was you know,something in my gut told me to
let's see what happens.
And I had four volunteers thathelped me from the university,
that were occupational therapystudents, because I thought what
a great mentorship for them tosee nature for its therapeutic
value.
(08:22):
And so those four OT studentswent back to university and I
had 14 volunteers the next year,and so then I had two teachers
reach out.
One was a wildlife ecologistand a science teacher, and then
the other one was she was anelementary teacher and she was
the one who said, hey, wouldn'tit be fun to do stories in the
(08:42):
woods?
For instance, we could read thestory Three Little Pigs and
then we could have Bales, youknow, we could reenact the story
, she said, at picnic tables.
And as a therapist I was likehow wouldn't it be neat to bring
, you know, real bales of hayout into the woods and you know
bricks and logs and you knowwolf masks, and so they have the
(09:06):
opportunity to build life-size,free little pig homes and, you
know, have hours to play thatand engage in muscles and senses
.
And so she was like, yes, andso that really shifted that
first summer, when I was bymyself with some helpers, I was
really much my ideas.
It was adult directedactivities.
They were fun, but it was, youknow, very different than the
shift of where we had a playexperience and the environment
(09:28):
was inspiration and then theymight not bring home the three
little pig homes, but they hadan experience designed to create
change in the child.
And so after that point everyyear I said I'll do it one more
year, and this was about 12years ago, I would say.
You said your oldest is 20.
Now, yeah, we're still going.
And so after that, whathappened was I had about three
(09:52):
years into it, I released mycamps in February, because here
in America you have to releaseyour summer camps way ahead of
time, and so I was willing to dofour weeks of summer camp.
I didn't want to do summercamps all summer long.
I'm like I'm not supposed to beworking here.
So I released those camps andthen what happened is in a
minute's time.
I had wait lists for all fourweeks and I was like I had two
(10:14):
parents call crying, which mademe feel guilty, and one's hey,
my kid got in last year butdidn't get in this year.
What are you going to do aboutthat?
And I was like I don't know.
And then I had an occupationaltherapist reach out and a
physical therapist asking ifthey could replicate the program
, because it was really uniquefor a profession at the time.
There was not really that manypeople out there doing anything
(10:36):
with therapy, and so that's whenI went and got business mentors
, because I had no businessexperience and they taught me
how to license the programTimber Nook, and Timber Nook
stands for timber is amongst thetrees and nook or cranny is
like a hidden place amongst thetrees, away from the adult world
and the fears of the adultworlds, where kids can be kids.
And so what happened after thatis, I was going to market in New
(10:59):
England because that was myplan, which keeps getting shot
out of the water, by the way andI wrote an article called why
Kids Fidget and it wentincredibly viral Again.
See how I had no control overthis.
So it got picked up by theWashington Post and then they
sold World Rights that Times ofIndia, jerusalem Post picked it
up, and then I did a TED Talkfor Johnson Johnson on their
(11:20):
main stage in front of 100,000people, and then the book Bounce
and Barefoot came about, andthat's how Timber Nook went to
Australia.
It's in the UK, throughoutCanada and the United States as
well.
And then really quick, 2017,there was a school knocking on
my door saying we want TimberNook in the schools and I said,
nope, we're not.
(11:40):
We're not doing that, that'snot the plan.
But clearly that was the plan,and so now we're in, we're going
to be in 10 schools and we'restarting to research them
because we've been in schoolslong enough.
It's hard to get in a schoolbecause you have to get the
entire culture on board.
When it gets in, it really doesaffect the culture, and so
that's what we're researchingwith the University of New
(12:02):
Hampshire.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I can't wait till that research comes out and then
I'll bring it to my son'sschool.
Yes, yeah, because that's, thatis so wonderful, that is such
an incredible.
So the TED Talk I don't think Irealized that the TED Talk was
before the book, because that's,I've seen the yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
The first TED Talk.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
OK, okay, okay, there we go I was really pregnant for
that one.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Luckily no one saw that.
Just Johnson, Just Johnson andJohnson people.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Okay, okay, that is so incredible.
And you, like you said you knowI'm sure you've heard this in
it, but all the things that yousay and all of the you know you
said I'm not an ecologist, youknow they can be.
What I love the most about whatyou do is that you teach those
(12:50):
of us who really love to teachkids and love that you know, and
I know it's grown for you, I'msure and those of us who do love
and love to answer thatquestion for the five-year-old
about why the color change teachus why that's so important and
why we're drawn to it, because Ithink so many nannies are drawn
to this.
You know outdoor play idea, butdon't know why.
And you give us the why.
So I love that.
So you know.
For those who don't know, youknow what really is the basis of
(13:12):
, why is it so important.
You know we've kind of dancedaround it.
You know that you told thosestories a little bit, but really
what does outdoor play do forkids developmentally?
And you know why is it soimportant?
What have you found throughyour research?
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, absolutely so.
There's two kind of majorthings.
One is, when you step outdoors,you have more ability to move
in rapid ways, and what'shappening is kids are sitting
for an average of nine hours aday in a chair is the most
recent research I sat in on.
And what's interesting aboutthat is it can cause a lot of
(13:45):
issues if you're constantlybeing restricted, right.
So certain muscles thatshouldn't shorten will shorten,
and certain muscles thatshouldn't lengthen will lengthen
, and so it will affect yourposture, but it's going to
affect your gait.
And the other thing is, youknow, if kids are constantly in
this upright position, they'renot moving in the ways they
should.
So they really need at leastthree hours of outdoor playtime
(14:07):
a day.
They need to spin in circles,they need to go upside down,
they need to move in reallypretty rapid ways, because
inside the inner ear are littlehair cells and there's fluid in
there, and when you move invigorous ways, what that does is
it develops what we call thevestibular sense, and that sense
is key to all the other senses.
So if that's underdevelopedwhich we're finding a lot of
(14:30):
kids are walking around with anunderdeveloped vestibular sense
it can affect what we callsensory integration and that is
really like organization of thebrain so you can pay attention
in the classroom.
So just let's break it downjust a little bit of what that
sense does.
Again, that's plenty ofmovement opportunities.
The first thing it does is ithelps you to know where your
(14:50):
body is in space.
So it helps a child to get frompoint A to point B safely, to
get on and off playgroundequipment effectively and to
stay in their seat withoutfalling out.
So what's happening is some kidsare literally falling out of
their chairs in school now, andteachers are reporting that kids
are starting to run into eachother more frequently, and so
this is a real red flag if kidsare starting to fall from an
(15:14):
early age.
And so the way we treat that astherapists is we will have them
.
You remember I talked about theastronaut board is we'll
position them on that astronautboard and we spin them in all
different ways.
So we'll have them lay on theirside, we'll have them sit
upright, we'll use swings Samething.
We'll put them on the swing indifferent ways and spin them so
(15:36):
that they have a very good senseof body awareness when they
navigate their environment.
So the same is true withastronauts that's why Mary K
Weir worked with NASA is theyget in a machine before they go
in outer space that moves themin all different directions.
So when they go into ananti-gravity environment they
can really have a good sense ofbody awareness as they're
(15:58):
navigating those environments.
So we do the same thing fortreatment and what's happening
is sometimes I'll see a childspinning in circles, which is
really healthy for them, andI'll hear an adult say stop,
you're going to get dizzy or getdown from that rock, you're
going to get hurt.
But if we keep them from movingthose different ways, the
adults actually become thebarrier to that neurological
(16:20):
development that needs to happenso they can be safer and more
capable in their environment.
So you know things like swingson the playground, all that
stuff you know.
I remember spinning on swingswhen I was a kid, some of those
things.
I'm hearing that they'rebanning swings or they're being
restricted on how they useswings to keep them safe.
(16:41):
But as therapists we reallywant to work with the
educational field to promotebeing able to move in those
different ways so that they canhave a very capable neurological
system.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Oh, that drives me nuts to hear that that they're
banning, because that's 100%.
And you know I'm just going toput a blanket on.
I feel like so much of whatI've done in my own practice is
inspired by your work, so youknow everything you're saying.
I'm like, yes, I used to run anature preschool for my backyard
, my background, and I used to.
You know, when kids were evenupset, I'd be like, okay, let's
(17:15):
go swing on the swing, go swingon your belly for a little bit.
You know, even as like asoothing mechanism, cause that's
the swings are my favorite tool.
So that is, that's incredible.
Can you tell because I knowI've heard it about the best, or
about the proprioceptive sensetoo, in the underdeveloped
perceptive sense, cause I knowthat's another one that a lot of
(17:36):
you know?
We all know about all of theregular five senses and that's
crazy that kids are falling outof chairs.
But what is the?
I know it's proprioceptive, butcan you tell us a little bit
about that?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
and what is?
Speaker 1 (17:47):
going on with kids in that sense as well.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
So basically what's happening is OTs will talk a lot
about the importance of heavywork, right?
So it's like push-pullactivities and if you look at
outdoor play, kids are naturallygetting a lot of heavy work.
So if I'm watching kids inTimber Nook, they're dragging
(18:10):
like pallets across the woods tobuild a fort, or they're
picking up big logs.
Or if they're building a dam,same thing.
You're picking up heavy rocksand all of that.
What it does is it gives nicesenses to the joints and muscles
and that helps you to knowwhere your limbs are in relation
to each other.
It helps with body awarenessand also helps with knowing how
much force to use when playinggames like tag, without hitting
too hard or holding a chick,without squeezing the poor chick
(18:31):
or the frog.
We do this sometimes Kids willcatch frogs and they're
squeezing the frog too much.
So that sense is developedthrough a lot of heavy work and
we're at the point where we'rebanning tag because kids are
getting more and more aggressive.
But we really want to understandwhy are so many kids presenting
with this regulation issue?
(18:52):
And again, the way we treatthat is through heavy work and
so climbing trees, all of thosethings used to give you nice
sensation to the joints andmuscles and helps you know where
your limbs are and reallyshrink to each other and again
how much force you use whenplaying games like tag.
So if kids are just going, youknow, pretty sedentary, they're
(19:12):
not getting a lot of heavy work.
You have short 20 minute recesssessions.
You're just not getting as muchbig body work.
And then you go home and you'reon electronics.
You're not, you know, a lot ofthose electronics.
You're not getting resistanceto the joints and muscles, so
that system is going to beaffected if they're not getting
as much outdoor playtime.
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
What does that look like?
You know?
I think it's clear.
You know, falling out of yourchair and not being able to stay
upright is like a cleartranslation to an adult, but in
terms of the proprioceptive andlike TAG, translating to like
adulthood.
And if that sense doesn'tdevelop, come from that.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, Well, so the vestibular we will advocate for
older generations to keep moving.
So a lot of us, if we're thisis not for perception, this is
vestibular, but if we're notmoving enough, this one reason
why we don't tolerate rides whenwe get older.
So I can't do spinny ridesanymore.
Yeah, Like, a lot of us justaren't moving as much and so we
(20:11):
might not go on the spinny ridesor the roller coasters anymore.
You feel nauseous.
And with the really oldergeneration, we want them to keep
moving because we want toprevent falls and hip fractures.
And so you know, water,aerobics, all of that stuff is
really important to keep thatsystem strong.
And then the proprioceptionsystem I actually don't I'm not
(20:33):
sure how that relates to adults,except they probably don't know
their own strength, Like youmight be.
They might be like playfighting with someone, like when
you're older, you know, liketeasing, and they're like it's
just their regulation is offwith force.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Oh, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, I'm sure if they're close talkers.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I would say.
The only other thing I canthink of is like having really
bad handwriting because notknowing how hard to push on a
pencil, and like neverdeveloping good handwriting or
anything like that.
The only one I can think of offthe top of my head.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah, and I think maybe close talkers.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
For sure.
I say there was a good questionthat I wanted to drop in here.
You were talking about heavywork.
How can you talk about heavywork in terms of how similar it
is to the more general conceptof gross motor development and
like gross motor work?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
So we kind of break it down by the senses, you know.
So there's a vestibularperception, the visual tactile
smell, all's a vestibularperception, the visual tactile
smell, all that stuff, and thengross motor in general relies on
having a good vestibular senseand having good proprioceptive
sense.
But you know, for coordination,knowing where your body is in
(21:47):
space as you navigate yourenvironment, that's really key.
So I would say body awarenessand safety are the biggest
things to pay attention to.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Amazing.
I'm going to save this questionfor the end because I think
it's a little big.
Besides just being fun, likewhat are the most important ways
the outdoor play really helpschildren develop, like their
bodies, minds, emotions, wholebody development.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah, oh my gosh.
So when I do speakingengagements, it's usually at
least 90 minutes for the keynote, and then it's like another
whole workshop where they dolike a turmeric experience, and
then we analyze the therapeuticbenefits and it's every aspect
of the growing child is workedon.
So let's say, for instance,children are in giant mud pedals
and they're just catching frogs.
(22:37):
Often I have an image thatshows children that are playing
with a little box of sand andthere might be a gardening thing
going on in the box of sand,and then there's kids in these
giant mud pedals catching frogs.
And so I say now, both areconsidered a sensory experience.
However, if our true objectiveis to create change to the
(22:58):
senses, which one do you thinkwill be more likely to do that?
And so if you really startthinking about it and you take a
step back, the audience willoften point out so many things.
First of all, in the giant mudpuddles it's a whole body
sensory experience.
Right, it's head to toe muddy.
I'm sure it's not even underthe mud puddle.
(23:19):
It probably smells differentfor different people.
There's real frogs in there,and so you have that component
that's super meaningful tochildren.
And then there's endless playopportunities.
So I might pick up a stick andhave a hundred playances, or
they're called visualaffordances.
So I might have like 50 ways toplay with that and then you
(23:41):
might have 50 different ways.
We might have some overlap, butI'm going to inspire you to
play with that stick in ways youmight have not thought of, and
so that leads to more creativeplay.
So there's just endlessopportunities for play sensory
development, motor, cognitive.
There's communication withother children like connection
in person is huge too.
(24:02):
All these kids are going home.
I have teenagers now so I knowthey tell me stories where the
kids go home and they're onscreens and it's, you know,
sometimes the only interactionthese teenagers have is they're
like on screens with someoneelse.
So from an early age,connecting with other people and
having the social skills tostand up for yourself and, you
(24:25):
know, set boundaries with otherchildren, to ask for something,
to negotiate, to practicegetting frustrated with other
children, you know, likeregulating emotions, all the
good stuff happens out there andit's hard to replicate in a
classroom setting.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
That's amazing and I can just only imagine how
well-rounded your children areas teenagers and young adults,
having the experience they did.
And you know they did and youknow you mentioned so many of
the benefits and really talkingabout them, I think that a lot
(25:04):
of nannies understand it.
Do you have any?
You know nuggets or like evenone liners?
You know ways that nannies cantalk to the parents they work
for?
Because I think that's a bigstruggle that a lot of nannies
have is they know how importantit is to get outside with their
kids and get messy and do all ofthis nature play.
But they also answer to parentswho sometimes don't understand
(25:24):
what the developmental andobviously you know I always say
you know, throw the expertsunder the bus first, give them
the books, give them thearticles, send them these things
.
But you know, are there any?
Just you know real tips thatyou can give that are easy ways
to talk about the benefits andwhy it really you know why it's
okay to be messy and why it'sokay to.
(25:44):
You know take risks andpossibly get hurt and why that's
so beneficial for their kids.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Especially in the face of fear, because I think
that's what the nannies arefacing is the fear that the
parents have because they're notthere.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah.
So there's two things.
The first one is I want toexplain why it's important to
get messy from a little likefrom the sensory standpoint,
just so you guys have thatnugget.
And then I want to talk aboutwhy, like how to address it with
the parents.
So the first one is one thingthat we're noticing is a lot of
kids don't like that tactilesense like that.
(26:18):
That can feel really aversivefor some children, like they
might not like glue on theirfingers, they might want to, not
want to get dirty.
And the way that we havetraditionally treated that as
therapists is we'll use abrushing protocol.
You probably some of you haveheard of this.
It's like a surgical brush andthey brush the child Like and
it's really just deep pressure,and what that does is that
(26:40):
neurologically overrides thatlight touch sense that can feel
aversive for some children andintegrates that sense.
And so I was thinking aboutthis again kids playing outdoors
and if you think, picture achild on the beach, let's say,
and they're building asandcastle.
Well, they're getting thatlight touch sense, but they're
digging in the dirt, which islike that deep pressure at the
(27:02):
same time, and because they areable to get deep enough, that
helps to actually override thatlight touch sense and integrate
that sense.
It's the same with climbingtrees Like that sap might feel
gross but because you're gettingdeep pressure while you're
getting that light touch sense,that helps to integrate that
light touch sense.
(27:22):
You know what's insane is.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
So just a little bit of background.
I'm autistic and I actuallyreally don't like sand.
I like the light touch of sand,but week of vacation at the
Atlantic ocean in South Carolinaand it's like that denser sand
that you can build really nicesandcastles.
I love to go dig in the sandand build sandcastles and it
doesn't bother me when I'm doingthat and I've never thought
(27:45):
about that.
But you just said that and thatmakes sense because the deep
touch is like overpowering theitchiness of the sand for me.
So that's incredible and, yeah,that's so real.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yeah, and so if you compare that again to a little
box of sand, the problem withthat is you can't get deep
enough right, so you're justgetting that tactile sensation
but you're not creating actualchange to the senses.
So again, providing outdoor playopportunities that actually
create change to the senses iskey, and so that's one thing,
that connecting the dots foreducators and for parents is
(28:21):
really eye-opening, because onceyou know you're like oh, this
is, I'm not, you know it's hardto go back.
The other one is, as a healthcare professional, I was always
taught in my ethics classes todo no harm, and we're at the
point where actually causingharm to children by restricting
them so much and taking awayenough outdoor playtime it is
(28:42):
affecting development in prettyextreme ways.
So I always talk to parentslike we can't keep doing what
we're doing.
They really need this more thananything else.
You know well there's otherthings that I report to, but you
know outdoor play is reallycritical to development and so I
think just laying it out thereof how things like development
(29:02):
is changing is also reallyeye-opening to parents.
So we do a lot of connectingthe dots here at Timber Nook for
different communication toolsto really educate people on the
importance.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
I love that.
So, yeah, this is what yourchild's doing and this is what
it's doing for them, andconnecting those dots that is a
great tip.
I love that.
I'm going to shift a little bitand I'm going to use first the
questions that were dropped inthe chat before we transition
into ways that nannies canencourage more outdoor
(29:36):
exploration in city spaces,because a couple people brought
up and I want to ask first abouthow Timber Nook interacts Does
Timber Nook work in any urbanareas?
And the questions asked, bothschools that don't have access
to nature how do you work withthat?
How are school settingshandling considerations that
(29:58):
have led to safe, as meaningindoors behind a locked door and
needing to outdoor play inschools, and so both that safety
issue I don't know if you'vecome up across it at all with
(30:19):
Timber Nook in terms of like,how do we make safe outside and
just how do we, you know, interms of access to the outdoor
in those urban areas?
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, so all right, I'm going to start with the
first question, as far as TimberNook.
Working with urban settingslike the Timber Nook, like
timber, like it has to be withinnature.
So we do have, we do want topartner with schools that are
from cities, like right now wehave kids that drive an hour and
they do field trips at TimberNook, but we feel like there's
(30:52):
got to be property closer andit's just really knocking on the
right doors and trying to findpartnerships.
Really, we're motivated to tryto figure out because I feel
like they need it more thananyone and when they do come for
a field trip, they appear to bevery play deprived.
It's like a very.
I don't know how to explaintheir play, but there's a sense
of urgency about it.
They know they have a limitedtime.
(31:13):
It's like a very.
I don't know how to explaintheir play, but there's a sense
of urgency about it.
They know they have a limitedtime.
It makes me want to cry.
It's like they have three hoursand they're going to make the
best of it, but it's very urgent, and so it's very clear that
these children need moreopportunities for something like
Timber Nook.
There are other programs thatare designed in a city, but I
still feel like it's differentthan when you're in the woods
(31:34):
and you're building societies intheir own worlds, and so, again
, increasing access, workingwith partnerships, is really
important.
But there are also likeadventure playgrounds, which are
probably the closest you canget to Timberknock.
There's no woods but they atleast have loose parts play.
It's a completely differentprogram but they do have some
overlap where the adults do stepback and allow for
(31:58):
child-directed playopportunities.
As far as safety goes, I'm notquite sure I understand the
question, but we have our ownsafety protocols that we have to
go through.
We are a licensed program sodifferent organizations and
schools will adopt TimberNetprogramming and have their own
safety protocols that theyfollow.
We're just a specific licensedprogram, so different
organizations and schools willadopt TimberNet programming and
have their own safety protocolsthat they follow.
We're just a specific licenseprogram and we mandate training
(32:20):
to stay really strong and theydo the HIST, like hazards versus
age, like appropriate risktaking, and then we train them
on what's reasonable risk taking, what is not reasonable risk
taking out there, and when to goand when not to go in, kind of
thing.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
So absolutely, yeah, I feel like you almost have a
little bit more awareness whenyou're out and about because you
don't have the false sense ofsecurity of the indoors and,
yeah, you're more aware of yoursurroundings.
So thank you so much for that.
Is there any you know just interms of how nannies who might
live inside obviously gettingout to where you know, getting
(32:56):
out into woods, but you know ifit's not in the woods but just
when you can get those littlepockets of outside time or
little pockets?
Are there any ways that nanniescan encourage kind of that free
outdoor play when they live ina more urban setting?
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah.
So if you want to read evenmore, the book does go into
detail and ideas and stuff.
But just to give you a sample,you can use different adult type
materials and bring it outdoorsand set up a little bit of an
invitation to play kind of thing.
If you have puddles, like Ilove puddles because you can
place something like kitchenwareright near the puddle and right
(33:33):
away what you're doing isyou're using what we call shaped
affordance theory, so you'reusing the mud puddle right next
to kitchenware and they startexperimenting with those two
objects together.
The other thing is like olderchildren or even little children
.
You know, fort building is kindof a classic pastime.
You know again, these are alittle bit older.
(33:54):
But you know having materialslike old curtains, you know you
can get from garage sales orGoodwill lumber pallets, we use
milk crates, bricks, but soevery turmeric site has a Home
Depot.
So it's this little Home Depotarea where they can pull
materials because they'reconstantly building.
We have our own actualcurriculum that comes out too.
(34:17):
So there's a staging areathat's separate from the Home
Depot, but it's almost like yourpreschool should have building
blocks.
Every Timberlake site hasbuilding materials.
So having access to thingswhere they can build is really
key.
And then the other thing is theother children are part of the
environment, so having mixedages or having multiple children
(34:38):
actually to me makes lifeeasier.
They inspire each other to playin different ways and
encouraging parents to dosomething similar Don't just do
a play date.
Parents are getting really busyand overscheduling their kids
that they're not prioritizingsetting up time to have kids
over for the entire day and soreally encouraging them to get
outdoors, invite kids over forthe entire day, is really
(35:01):
important for socialization andthere's a lot of lonely kids.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
It's really sad, I think the thing that you just
like really didn't say right,there was set up a structured
game and get up this exactactivity and to do that, you
know, like I think, even justplay date, scared nanny
sometimes, and there are reasonsto besides this uh, parrots, do
you know?
But you don't have to have allthese activities and you know,
(35:30):
pinterest, perfect play date.
That's not a play date.
Just giving them the materialsand the environment to make
their own fun is all you got todo.
That's really what's better forthem.
That's what I heard right there, so I'm going to always
remember that as a mom too.
So amazing.
There was another question thatI wanted to ask, and you
(35:54):
mentioned your girls areteenagers now and they're coming
back with their stories, and soI think this is one that you
know as kids grow and they areteenagers.
And then this question wasabout caregivers and adults as
well, but then also teenagers,because teenagers.
How can we make outdoor playmore enjoyable and accessible
(36:18):
for adults caregivers who aretrying to get outside with their
kids, or the teenagers who aremaybe resistant to it, so that
way they can support them andkeep them safe and continue to
get outside throughout as theygrow?
Not necessarily how do we getthe kids outside, but how do we
get outside as adults and makethat fun.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, we've been having many requests over the
years to do adult experiencesand teen experiences because
it's like permission to playlike that and it's hard to get
that many people in the placewith that kind of materials.
So I think that, yes, they canbenefit from it as much as the
adults.
(36:56):
We're actually going to do ateen experience this summer
where it's a glow-in-the-darklike nighttime warrior camp
where they have, you know, abattle and stuff out there and
they're super excited about it.
My daughter's 20 and she'salready talking about it, whose
team they're going to be on andhow they're going to steal from
the other group when they're notlooking.
But I do think that we need toremember that teens especially
(37:19):
need to play and adults.
I'm very concerned for ourteenagers because of some of the
stories I've been hearing andhaving girls that are that age
and the socialization pieces arereally fascinating to me.
They're just not able to liketalk to people in person.
It's funny.
My girls went to private schooland then they went to public
(37:40):
school when they went to highschool and it was like night and
day.
They're both very friendly andwould say hi to people and
people are like you know, it'sjust very interesting.
They think you know what'swrong with you or they'll pull
out their phone so they don'thave to look at you in the face.
So I think you know giving themopportunities for this kind of
(38:01):
play.
It's just so important from ayoung age.
We have gone into some schoolswhere the young kids they get
Timber Nook all the way upthrough and you can.
It shows, you can see thedifference in those kids that
get play from a young age tothose that didn't have it and
they just struggle.
They like don't know what to dowith themselves, they're
uncomfortable.
So I think the answer I'mreally getting at is those that
you can do this early with andwhat you guys really matter is
(38:24):
like getting them to play andbeing huge advocates for play
from a young age.
It really makes a world ofdifference.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Absolutely, that is so amazing.
So, moving on to do you haveany favorite stories that you
can share that really justexemplify how outdoor play has
changed a child development,whether it's been one of those
kids that you got to see grow up, go through the program.
You know any just like storythat really drives home the
(38:54):
power of outdoor play and how itcan change a child's
development?
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Yeah, this story is actually about the importance of
adults stepping back, which isactually the hardest piece and
probably one of the mostimportant to Timbernaut.
We're so used to being so closeto the kids and what we learned
over the years is if we're tooclose to kids let's say,
building a fort the kids willstart turning to the adults for
constant reassurance.
Is this okay, or can you dothis for me?
(39:20):
Or there's more tattling goingon?
But we learned that when wereally step back and we actually
have a toddler program whereadults come with their toddlers
and we also try to pull themback a little bit you can't hide
on toddlers, but we do try toreduce adult presence out there,
because the kids really need tolearn to initiate their own
play ideas.
(39:40):
They're so used to beingentertained and everything's
done for them, and so there wasthis one time where, for me, it
was a little hard to watch, butit was a really powerful
reminder on the importance ofstepping back, and this was, I
think the kids were six or seven.
It was a field trip and theywere building a teepee and there
(40:01):
was a group of girls and all Iheard was a boy went up to them
and said you need to let me play.
And right away we were trainingtoo.
So when you're training youwant things to go nice.
But something told me to let'sjust see what happens.
And the little boy had scissors.
So we're all like, oh my gosh,what's going to happen?
So the girls ended up forming achain with their hands and
(40:22):
defending their fort and saying,no, we won't.
And so the boy he cut a pieceof their twine and they had gems
in their fort and so he tooktheir gems and he took off
running.
And so what happened was thegirls ended up chasing him in
the woods over and over again,like they must have done three
or four laps around the entirewoods, and one of the providers
(40:45):
was like, okay, well, somethingis bound to happen.
And so, sure enough, he gottired and he was frustrated.
So he's like, fine, just takethe gems.
And gave it back to them.
The girls went back to theirfort, redecorated their teepee
and their singing, because theywere triumphant.
They got their gems back andthe boy was interesting as he
went over to a tree and hecrossed his arms and he was
(41:08):
sulking, was upset.
One of the little girls leftthe fort after a couple minutes
and went down and sat rightbeside him and we, out of
respect, we again give themspace, so we couldn't hear what
they were saying, but we couldhear the noise level.
And so she starts calmlytalking to him and then right
away he's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and so she puts her hand
(41:29):
up like talk to the hand typething, and so then he calms down
for a second, but then he yellsagain, and so she puts her hand
up like talk to the hand typething, and so then he calms down
for a second, but then he yellsagain, and so she, again she
does the hand thing gesture, andso what was interesting is his
voice comes down and he startscalmly talking to her, and then
all we saw is she waves him onto play, and so that little boy
(41:50):
was included.
For the rest of the week it wasno longer an issue.
Now.
If we had gone in right fromthe beginning and said you need
to let him play, whatopportunities do you think they
would have missed out on?
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Yeah, and they probably wouldn't have played.
Yeah, he probably wouldn't haveever really wanted to play and
really belonged, and that's thatis so incredible, and yeah
right.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
So, like he, they solved their own problem Right.
So they learned conflictresolution through play, which
is the best way to practicethose skills.
And you know, like he probablylearned, maybe yelling isn't the
best way to be included.
You know, ok, sometimes youhave to practice, you have to
test things out, test outdifferent theories of what works
(42:33):
, what doesn't.
He was allowed to get included.
You know, okay, sometimes youhave to practice, you have to
test things out, test outdifferent theories of what works
, what doesn't.
He was allowed to get upset.
No one was telling him to bequiet, like he got frustrated.
The girls learned to defendtheir, set boundaries with them.
They defended their fort.
That was for my girls growingup.
I was so like thankful thatthey were able to set boundaries
with people growing up.
And then she practiced likeempathy, like something you have
(42:59):
to just experience.
She practiced communicationskills with them, patience, like
she waited till he calmed downand then he was authentically
included and so it was no longeran issue.
He could have resented them andthey could have resented him if
we had told, forced it and madeit not a choice.
And so, because they decidedand they worked it out
themselves, it was no longer anissue.
(43:19):
So I often think like how oftendo we do that?
How often do we step in toosoon and we, we do it for them
and they don't learn those basiccommunication problem solving
skills that are best donethrough play.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
that, yeah even I was thinking you know, he wore
himself out too.
He probably was easier to talkto after he wasn't so tired too.
Yeah, exactly, that is soincredible.
Well, besides that momentbecause I feel like that one
could have been the answer tothis too what is the most
rewarding part of seeingchildren thrive and spending
time in outdoors throughout yourcareer?
Speaker 2 (43:53):
rewarding part of seeing children thrive and
spending time in outdoorsthroughout your career.
Yeah, I think it's super fun towatch the older kids like that
have done Timber for so long andthey take play to a whole
different level.
They create societies and theirown worlds out there.
There was one time where Iheard a horn blow and like kids
came running from all over thedifferent parts of the woods and
this girl had a feathered maskand she's your top spy, top
(44:13):
commander and started pointingthese hierarchies.
And this girl had a featheredmask and she's your top spy, top
commander and started pointingthese hierarchies and they were
basically going to war.
It was like really they weretrying to capture the flag.
Basically they were trying tosteal gems from each other.
But it's really fun to watchbecause those are the memories
that my girls remember growingup of the best memories growing
up and they learned you knowconfidence and you know they
(44:35):
know who they are.
They don't struggle with anysense of who am I as a person
and just really friendly, nicepeople but very courageous.
I think being able to play thatway and overcoming fears in a
playful way made them moreadventurous.
Like they dirt bike now, mydaughter played hockey with all
(44:56):
boys for a long time and thenplayed in like college and yeah.
So it's neat to see them lateron go off for snowmobiling for
50 miles by themselves and beconfident, capable, wholesome
adventurers, and they stay outof trouble, which is really nice
.
So it's like giving them theright kind of risk taking.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
So yeah, so you've got the case studies that it
works now, yeah, I love it.
Well, before we let you go, youknow, obviously, Barefoot and
Balanced.
If you don't have, if youhaven't read it yet, I've got
somebody.
There we go.
(45:37):
If you have not read Barefootand Balanced yet, please do I
actually.
I was looking for my copy beforewe started and then I realized
that I've lent it out to some.
Well, mine's lent out to afriend right now.
So I'm like, oh, I guess I needto get a few more copies to
always make sure I've got one inbackup, because mine is all
marked up and well loved.
It is an absolutely incrediblebook.
(45:57):
We'll make sure that the linkis in the show notes.
I know you mentioned likeyou're getting in with schools
and looking for thosepartnerships, so I just wanted
to ask if there is any nannieshere who see a need in their
community, how do they get intouch with Timber Nook, get you
to come to their nanny kid'sschool, or if they know of a
plot of land in an urban areathat you know Timber Nook could
(46:20):
come to, possibly, how do theyconnect with you and your
organization to help spread thegoodness of nature play?
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Yeah, so yeah, if you go on our website, you can see
that we do certify schools to doTimber Nook and it's a specific
kind of training, and then wealso do Timber Nook Providership
, where you know it's anindividual organization that
wants to run communityprogramming, like homeschool
programming, summer camps, nightexperiences, but like anything
(46:48):
that's for the community toddlerprogramming.
So they can check that out andjust reach out to us with
questions as well.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Amazing.
Yes, I know nannies have askedme how to start their own nature
, so I'm like go get Timber Nookcertified.
So if you are one of those whohave dreamed of it, definitely
check it out.
Well, it was so lovely to haveyou here, angela.
Thank you so much, thank you,thank you everybody.
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