#155 | PMOs Leading Change: Change Management & Organisational Agility (Live Webinar) - Agile Ideas

Episode Transcript
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Fatimah Abbouchi (00:03):
So today we're going to take you through what
we expect when it comes to PMOand change, and why we expect it
to mature in 2025 and why it'simportant.
So there's a lot of definitelydifferent insights we can share
from both perspectives from aPMO expertise perspective and
from the change space as well.
We'll also talk about how PMOscan elevate their roles to

(00:25):
incorporate change managementand this will be really useful
for those that are on the changeor delivery side to how to work
better with PMOs, and we'llalso talk about some proven ways
to adopt and drive sustainablechange and ideas from both the
change side and from a PMO sideas well.
And then we'll answer some of.
We've had over 80 or I thinkit's nearing now closer to 100

(00:49):
questions that have come in.
Now we won't get through themall, but we've grouped them into
themes and we'll talk throughthose questions, some of those
towards the end in a bit of arapid fire, and other than that,
I'll just quickly introduce you.
So most of you who have been inone of these meetups before will
already know me, so we won'tread through this.

(01:10):
You can have a look.
You'll get a copy of this.
You can find me on LinkedIn.
And then I've got Matt, myspecial co-host, who's the
founder and managing director ofMate.
So hi, matt.

Matt Dragun (01:20):
Hi Fatimah, Great to be here and thank you for
having us on.

Pleasure and thanks everyone for putting into
the chat where you're from.
I can see there is some globalvisitors who I'm sure are in a
very interesting time zone.
So thank you, we appreciateyour being here.
Hey, so you did say in yourquestions that you submitted
lots of different things, andthese were just some of those
that you talked about.

(01:45):
As I said, we received lots andlots of questions and really
great opportunity to go throughsome of those and to continue to
provide additional insightspost today as well.
But let's get straight into it.
Okay, so we've taken the chanceto go through the different
perspectives, as I said.

(02:05):
So, matt, being the changemanagement expert and also a
technology expert, we're goingto talk to that side, and then
I'm going to cover off from aPMO perspective.
So let's start.
So, matt, one of the firstthings I think we could start
with is talking about what we'reexpecting, seeing, what we're
hearing when it comes to, like,the PMO and change space.

(02:27):
So why don't you kick us off?

Yeah, thanks, fatima, and the slide on screen
is basically a survey of about240 business leaders in
Australia and it's really,really interesting.
Senior leadership in Australiais seeing digital transformation
and particularly achieving areturn on investment as the
number one challenge for notonly 2025, but also the next

(02:54):
three to five years, and thisresearch backs up very much what
I'm hearing from our clients inthe market and the different
trends that we're seeing fromour clients and also the folk
that we're speaking to and thatI guess what I'm expecting or
seeing is that executives andboards are, I guess,

(03:16):
transitioning their focus toreally look at benefit
realisation from theirtransformation programs and
there's a significant shift tonot only, I guess, investing in
transformation or technologyproject delivery, but also
tracking the outcomes of thetechnology implementations and

(03:39):
ensuring that there's a returnon investment.
I think previously forbusinesses, if you think about a
manufacturing business, thebiggest investments were in
things like plant and equipmentand it was very, very easy for
boards and executives to trackreturn on investment.
They could look at throughput,they could look at volume of

(03:59):
outputs With technology.
I think what's happened, youknow, over the past five or 10
years is organizations haveinvested significantly and now
technology is their greatestinvestment.
If you look at a line item inthe P&L those tangible

(04:21):
measurements of return oninvestment or being able to
de-risk business or change theirbusiness risk profile so we're
seeing a greater focus on whathappens post-implementation.

It's a good segue to one of the observations
that I've been seeing andhearing so a lot of clients.
From a PMO perspective.
They're faced with sort of twoscenarios.
So you're either in anorganisation, a department or a
team that has both a dedicatedchange management function be it
a change management centre ofexcellence or a head of change,

(05:01):
with a core group of peopleunderneath, or you are on the
other side, where you might havesome change management
resources sprinkled acrossprograms and projects but
there's no sort of centralizedfunction that brings them
together.
So, from a PMO perspective, whatwe're finding is that there
becomes a need to start to fillsome of those gaps, and so PMOs,

(05:22):
and especially the ones thatI've been speaking to, are
trying to bring in and influencesome of those really formal
change management capabilitiesand starting to think about how
to integrate those changeactivities within the governance
and reporting structures, etcetera.
And so, effectively, you've gotchime embed change without

(05:45):
dedicated change managementteams, or you've got trying to
do so with a change managementteam, but there is a disconnect
between how PMOs and changehistorically, are working
together, and so we'll cover alittle bit of that as we go
through as well.
And one of the other things I'mseeing as well is in terms of
sort of the, from a measurementperspective, some of the things

(06:06):
and this is where I think techcomes into it so some of the
things that PMOs are trying tofocus more on is things like
adoption rates adoption of newprocesses and tools and
behaviours and thinking aboutthings like stakeholder
readiness.
Typically, you see, that happenreally well in change, but in
PMO space there's usually a gapdepending on the capability of

(06:28):
the organisation, and then alsothings like risk mitigation et
cetera.
So I think between thoseperspectives, depending on
whether people are sitting inthe we have dedicated change
management, which is great, it'smature and capable or you're
sitting on the other side whereyou don't have it and the PMOs
are trying to plug those gaps.
So I think there's a little bitof that at the moment.

(06:50):
Is that something you're sortof seeing, Matt, with some of
the people that you speak with?

Yeah, fatima, I love that example that you've
presented and the differentmodels because it's very
consistent with what we see andI think what you're highlighting
there is.
What we're seeing at a boardand exec level is that the PMO
is being asked to report onthings like adoption and
embedment and benefitrealisation to board and exec,

(07:17):
and where we're seeing thecrossover into change is a lot
of the leading indicatorsassociated with those metrics,
like adoption, that youmentioned are actually the
domain and change managers arethe domain experts.
So this is where I'm seeing areally it's a great opportunity
for PMOs and change teams tocome together to be able to meet

(07:42):
the needs of the executives andboard-level reporting, but also
to deliver greater value totheir organisations by
collaborating more closelytogether.
And that's where I thinkthere's a huge opportunity, not
only in 2025, but moving throughthe next few years, where we'll
see PMO and change coming moreclosely together and looking to

(08:06):
drive business outcomes as acollective.

Awesome and I think we've got a couple of
examples of that in just aminute which we'll get to and I
think one of the things, matt,you and I speak about a lot is
like that whole benefitsrealisation piece, which is
often the neglected at least inthe PMOs I work with is often
the thing that is least thoughtabout because it seems to be
someone else's problem.
So I think we can definitelytalk about ways to integrate

(08:33):
those PMO change to help drivethe benefits as well.

For sure.

Okay, so let's share a little bit more.
So I did a little bit of aquick Google search this morning
in relation to projectmanagement office and change
management globally and theinterest graph over time using
Google over the last 12 months.
So I've noticed and being inPMO for the last 20 years and

(09:01):
almost as much in changemanagement, I've seen a
significant shift in PMO andchange management and at the
moment, in the last few years,there seems to be a very much
increase in popularity for PMOs,more than I've ever seen before
.
And I've been following thistrend for the last 20 years and
that's not for the lack oftrying over the past, but

(09:22):
there's been more emphasis inthis space and I think this is a
real big opportunity for changemanagement which, as you can
see from the graph, the blueline is change management and
the red line, trending upwards,is actually PMO.
So I think that there isprobably, looking at this, a
view that maybe there's somestagnation there, but working
together, I think changemanagement and PMO can equally

(09:45):
promote each other and start towork together better and where
there isn't change management,the PMO can step up and try to
bring that sort of visibility tothe need for change.
So I think there's definitelysome things that we know are
better off, such as having thosechange management practices to
drive some of those outcomes.

(10:05):
We also know that having goodchange management also drives
organisational agility andresilience, and in the last few
years one of the big gaps hasbeen the impact of so agile base
small A agile, big A agile andhow we actually incorporate
change management to drive thebehaviours that we want to see

(10:28):
in these organisations.
So I think there's a balancebetween the two and I think that
there is definitely evidence tosuggest A that change
management practices embeddedwill drive greater outcomes
there's lots of studies on thatand B, with the PMO's rise in
popularity at the moment, Ithink there's a really good
opportunity for PMO and changeto work together, so we're both

(10:50):
trending upwards.
I don't know, matt, if you'vegot any thoughts on that.

Yeah, there's a couple of things you mentioned
for Tima there.
The first one was agility.
One of the trends we're seeingwith our clients is a real push
to increase the agility of theoperations of the business.
So not necessarily agility intech delivery or PMO space, but
in the operations, to be agileand to be able to adopt change

(11:17):
and adapt to new and changes inmarket condition in a more agile
manner.
And I think there's a greatopportunity, where typically
your PMOs and your projects havegot a good handle on those
things that drive agility fortheir area of the business, for
the change managers to be aninterface to help basically the

(11:39):
organization drive its agilityin that space.
So I think there's a realopportunity there, especially,
as you describe, if change andPMOs are working more closely
together.

And the only thing I'd add as well, just that
you prompted, is I think it'simportant not to assume that all
PMOs have the capabilities ofchange managers.
They have different skill setsand there's definitely some
similarities in some of thethings they do.
But I think for PMOs that arehere today or teams that are
running PMOs, reassessment ofyour skills and the structures

(12:16):
you have within your PMO toensure that those people that
you are working with can supportthose change initiatives,
particularly if you don't havechange management as a function
in your organisation as well.

And Fatima, we're also seeing a trend with PMOs,
or I guess one of the big pullsthat we're seeing is how can we
upskill people within anorganisation to have a greater
level of change management,understanding and capability
both people within the PMO andthen also people within the

(12:49):
operations area of the business.
So a lot of the support workthat we're doing when we roll
out the Mate technology, it'salso building change capability
across the organisation, withinPMO and then also external to
PMO.

So that's a good segue then to our next
point.
So I like to sort of use thisvisual, very simple visual, to
articulate sort of typicallywhat we're seeing.
Of course there's some, youknow, separate situations where
things may differ, butholistically I like to sort of
think of it as for a long time,for as long as I can remember,

(13:27):
when we think about changemanagement, change management
typically aligns to projectmanagement delivery.
So you know, even 20 years ago,when we see change management
they're usually embedded indelivery.
They're working closely withthe project managers, program
directors, etc.
Yes, they might interact withPMOs, but seldom.
And then you've got the otherside.

(13:47):
So you're saying projectmanagement delivery teams
working alongside the PMO.
And so if you think aboutchange management, I like to
sort of say that it focusesoutwards.
Think about driving adoptionMatt was just talking about that
Managing stakeholder benefits,realisation, preparing teams for
what's coming.
So often they're thinking aboutthose operational teams that

(14:09):
Matt just mentioned.
When we think about the PMR, Ilike to sort of think about them
as focusing inwards, and when Isay inwards, talking about sort
of governance of projects,supporting the project managers,
the project delivery teams andensuring that delivery is on the
right track.
The project delivery teams andensuring that delivery is on the
right track.
There is a gap between thosetwo, and so to drive real
success, the two disciplinesneed to work together.

(14:31):
So this is where an alternativeview of what it could look like
makes more sense.
Now, there's nothingrevolutionary here, but
fundamentally, what we're sayinghere is that when we think
about change management and PMOtaking a different approach to
traditionally what's been doneover the years and having seen

(14:53):
this in many, many organizations, when we are not aligned, we're
focused outwards and inwards indifferent directions there's
actually a bit of a gap in termsof how we can align and execute
on business readiness and thatchange that's needed.
So I think the sweet spot is inthat middle and it enables us
to make sure that we're not justdelivering from the perspective

(15:15):
on paper, but we're actuallydriving change that will last
within the organization.
So there's obviously ways ofintegrating the two together,
and we can talk about that in amoment, but any thoughts on that
, Matt?

deliver better solutions and to continue to
iterate and improve thetechnical solutions that are
being delivered.
Where I see change facingoutwards into the business is
change needs to understand theways of working and the
processes that need to changeand when you're deploying a new
technology.
So what needs to change outsideof the technology in the

(16:08):
business to extract maximumvalue from the technology that
you're implementing?
And also the change functionnot only needs to understand how
the business operates today,but they also need to understand
the future state.
And so I think, if you look atthe way PMO and projects look
externally to the business, Ithink that's all about the

(16:29):
feedback loop from users todrive tech outcomes.
And then I think the role thatchange play for the PMO is
actually understanding thecurrent state of the business
process, understanding wheredecisions get made,
understanding how the businesscollaborates and uses the
technology within their existingrituals and their day-to-day

(16:52):
work to be able to drivebusiness outcomes.
And if you can really clarifyeach of those roles for change
and for PMO facing externally,then I think once you've got
that clarity of role, you canthen work really closely
together to drive the bestoutcomes 100% and like some of

(17:13):
those examples that I can sortof relate to, based on sort of
first-hand examples of workingwith different clients.

So when we think about that communications
part critical change PMO iscritical for both.
So from a PMO perspective wemight be supporting detailed
project schedules and milestonesand deliverables and things
like that.
On the change managementperspective, we might be
developing out the commsstrategy that's going to keep
stakeholders informed.
When we integrate both thoseplans, the PMO can make sure

(17:42):
that the communication about thekey project milestones is
delivered, but also how thosemilestones will impact the
business, how those milestonesare going to help stakeholders
understand the full context, howto help support change in
reducing resistance.
So that's like one specificexample that I've got.
Matt, do you have an example?

Yeah, and I've just following the chat and Jen
Zuber, who's an amazing changethought leader, popped a note in
the chat that change alsobasically has the view of BAU
change and what's happeningoutside of what the PMO is
delivering.
And I guess where I'm hearingJen coming from is that the

(18:24):
change team can also help thePMO get a perspective of what is
the capacity and the volume orthe capacity of the around when
they deploy what they'redeploying and then beyond that,
how they track benefit.
So, jen, thank you for that.

(18:55):
That's a great add to us.

I see another comment there.
Matt from Charlotte's talkedabout the business
transformation office.
So reconciling orreconciliating PM and change
management absolutely an option.
And I think one of the thingsto consider about is, sometimes
when we think abouttransformation, it depends on
whether that transformation islike long lived and part of the
DNA of an organisation, or ifwe're thinking about a short

(19:21):
term and thinking about atransformation program that you
know may go for a period of timethat just then determines how
much an organization is willingto invest in some of these
things as well.
So, yeah, absolutely,absolutely, really relevant,
particularly the operationalfocus.

Yeah, and I think that comment that you made there
, Fatima, when I think about thedifference between a
transformation office and a PMOoffice.
For me, transformation is builtaround one major technology
implementation, like an ERPsystem, and it's got a finite
lifespan, whereas a PMO isreally set up to help the
organisation maximise the valuefrom continual deployment of new

(20:01):
technologies or evolution ofexisting technologies.

And I think the other thing then to add as
well, thinking about that focusof depending on what that change
is and again, of course some ofthe terminology we're using
here may be different fromcompany to country, which is
fine, but even thinking aboutthings like getting training and
readiness programs, and so youknow, the PMO might be
supporting the systems and thetools and the implementation of

(20:27):
them, whereas the changemanagement team and resources
might actually work to helpdevelop the collateral needed to
help the end users in how touse those systems and tools.
And then there's a role therein terms of ongoing adoption and
then maintenance as well.
So I think there's lots of waysto bring these things together,
and particularly because whenwe talk about change the comment

(20:49):
made earlier was changemanagement has a greater depth
of relationship, depth andbreadth with operations that
lots of PMOs typically don'tunless they're at an enterprise
level.
So I think there's definitelysome learnings between the two
for sure.

Yeah, there's just another question in the chat
that's come up, which isbasically when you talk about
change incorporating portfolioprioritisation and assessment,
there's the differentiationbetween change variation as a
term and then change management.
One of the things that I liketo call change management as an

(21:23):
alternative is actuallyembedment, or supporting the
embedment of technology and newways of working.
But I think that's a gooddifferentiator, because we're
definitely talking about how doyou support the business, adopt
and change the way they work sothey can maximize the value from

(21:43):
the technologies that you'reimplementing.

It's so interesting because it's a very
common occurrence, I know, whenwe're putting together the
change control processes, thecontrolling scope, change
timelines, et cetera, there'salways a confusion around that
point that Ashok has raised, andso I think this goes back to
thinking about whatever it is,whether it's a department, an

(22:06):
enterprise, a transformationprogram, whatever it is getting
that messaging up front andgetting alignment on you know
the glossary of terms, if youlike Is there something so
simple that makes such an impactfor stakeholders along that
journey?
I know we're experiencing thatnow, where we've had to get
everyone aligned on what does golive actually mean?
And that wasn't clear.
So very relevant, definitelygood question.

(22:28):
Thanks, ashok.
Okay, so let's get into alittle bit more Matt.

So this is a bit of a favourite slide of mine to
present and basically I useFormula One as an analogy for
the way change and project teamswork together.
But typically in the pre-seasonof Formula One I equate that to
what change and project teamsdo during the early stages.

(22:56):
So we do solution co-design,which is like building the car.
We work in agile manners toiterate and get feedback and
typically your change teamreally work on the analysis part
.
So who's going to be impactedby the change, what are those
impacts look like and when arethey going to be felt?
The next part and I'll get youto click through Fatima is

(23:19):
basically the testing phase whenthey get to the Formula One
track.
So this is where you do yourpiloting, your user acceptance
testing, your training and thisis where you change team are
typically working to really helpthe organization get ready for
the deployment event.

(23:40):
The next piece that we look atand in the Formula One and I'll
get you to click through againfatima um is the deployment and
go live support and hypercareand traditionally what I equate
this to in formula one is the umqualifying or your.
You know it's before the racestarts.

(24:01):
It's to get your position atthe start line, um, before you
actually go to compete for racepoints, and what this looks like
is typically your hypercareperiod, where there might be
some coaching, there might besome significant support for the
go live event within thebusiness.
Find typically is when the racestarts and when there's

(24:26):
championship points on the line,which is the Grand Prix race,
change and projectstraditionally disappear, right,
and I find that reallyfascinating because the change
managers are actually the onesthat are perfectly positioned to
be the pit crew for thebusiness during the race.

(24:46):
They know exactly what thetechnology can deliver, so they
know how to drive the car, howto get the most out of it, and
they're perfectly placed to beable to support the folk in the
business who are busy runningday to day get the most out of
the new the car or the newtechnology that they're
deploying.

(25:10):
So when I think about the futureof change management and the
thing that really strikes meabout this analogy is it reminds
me of the 80-20 theory right,most organisations will invest
80% of their resources orprobably 90%, 95% of the
resource in project delivery and, like pre-go-live to hypercare

(25:32):
support, in change, and about 5%in when there's actually value
or points to be won on the line.
So when I think about whatchange and PMO can deliver,
moving forward, and where thetrend is, it's extending change
support for the business toreally support behavior change,

(25:53):
to help drive adoption, to helptrack benefit realization, and I
think change and PMO can dothat together.
And the reason I think there'ssuch a close link is because the
PMO are the ones that are goingto be asked by the executive
and board for the reporting onthese metrics, but the change

(26:14):
team are the ones thatunderstand the business and have
those relationships with thestakeholders to be able to
support the business and extractthe data back during the
post-go-live period.
So where I'm seeing the trendshift and where I'm seeing, I
think, the early adopters andthose organisations that are

(26:35):
pushing the boundaries in termsof getting greater value out of
their change and PMO resources,this is where they're playing.

I'll just screen, go to the end of your
visual.
I think, um, it's a really goodcall out and I really like the
way that you talk about, like,the reporting.
Obviously we know a core partof pmo's world is reporting.
We'll never get away from that.
But in order for us actually tounderstand those metrics and
getting that data, I think, likeyou said, the as much, as as

(27:07):
much as you can have the mosteffective PMO leader and I like
to pride myself on doing areally good job there's just not
enough capacity in the day aweek a month to go and seek out
some of the feedback andinsights that you get from the
operational teams and the endusers that are you know,
impacted effectively by thatchange.
So I think that's reallyimportant and that definitely
can feed into reporting being amore holistic, accurate picture,

(27:29):
and I also think that the it'svery timely, by the way, for you
to use the Grand Prix as anexample considering.

I do.
I thought that Very good.

You want to come up with another example for
later in the year or something,maybe, like I don't know,
baking a cake or something, butyeah yeah, I think it's a really
good way, one of the thingsthat you, when you've shared
this with me in the past, Ithink sometimes we talk about.
When projects finish, usuallythe project manager gets
reallocated onto something elseand benefits fall off the cliff
because there's not been adirect handover of those

(28:00):
benefits into operations, intofinance, into VAT, wherever it's
got to go.
But I think integrating that atthe beginning and all the way
throughout the project willdefinitely garner a better
result.

Yeah, and I think you're 100% right, and Jo
Rinaldi, who's another one of myfavourite change folk in
Australia.
Nice to have you on board, jo.
But she mentioned thatperformance scorecards,
post-go-live and thenmaintaining goals and not just
reaching it are a reallyimportant component.
And I think what I'm seeing andthe shift that I'm seeing where

(28:35):
organizations are doing well inthis space is they've got a
discipline around identifyingthe leading metrics associated
with their benefit realizationtargets.
And often those leading metricsare around people, so they're
around behaviour change andtracking adoption, with the
intent that once you shiftbehaviour and you get the right

(28:58):
levels of adoption, then theoutcome of that will result in
achieving the benefitrealisation targets.
And so I think you know, giventhe role and the expertise that
change managers bring to thetable, they're the ones that are
perfectly positioned to supportthe PMO, to help define what
those metrics should look like,to get post-go-live, and also to

(29:24):
support the business to trackthose metrics and make sure that
they're on track to achieve thetargets.

And I think, just to reiterate and I see a
comment around we're talkingabout EPMO.
So, talking more broadly, wewill cover some examples at a
program level as well and insome of the questions.
So this does not just relate toenterprise.
But when we think aboutenterprise, obviously that's
where we're talking aboutprioritisation of initiatives,
strategic alignment, et cetera.

(29:53):
So yeah, but it's definitelyall the way through from project
right through to enterprise.

Yeah, and Fatima on the enterprise piece.
I go back to Jen Zuber'scomment.
In and around, I think theenterprise, pmo and especially
the prioritisation conversations, the great value that the
change team can add is providingvisibility in terms of BAU
change to help inform releasetimings, to help inform

(30:20):
prioritisation conversations andto help inform those strategic
decisions.
And you know, I think when Ithink EPMO, I think strategy
right and I think your valuechain, and so the idea of being
able to connect what's happeningin the business with decisions
that are impacting how youdeliver against your value chain

(30:43):
and how you prioritiseinitiatives is driving strategic
value in terms of what changeteams can do to support EPMOs.

A really good example that just came to mind.
So, having worked in a largeprogram of work within an
organisation about a year ago,they had it was quite
significant, so about $30 or $40million, and the program was
rolling out some new tech change, so some new HRAS systems et
cetera, and in that rollout itwas enterprise-wide, so there

(31:16):
was no department function,operational area untouched.
The change management function,in this regard, needed to
understand where because theyattempted to do this multiple
times, this program hadattempted to be done several
times before and on this thirdtime they embedded a better
change management, I guess,maturity practice, et cetera.

(31:38):
Through that process, one ofthe things that the change
management team needed to do isto articulate where the
challenges were in terms ofreadiness, adoption, awareness
of the change over a period ofabout two to three years,
because it was a largetransformation program, and so
they then would run differentassessments about from all the

(32:00):
way, from thinking about yourvisual here all the way from the
very beginning, so fundamentalawareness, your visual here all
the way from the very beginning,so away fundamental awareness
to right through to readinessand then adoption, and in that
process what they found veryinterestingly is that there were
hot spots across theorganization that were not, um,
I guess, in terms of the, themetrics that they were using.

(32:30):
Now, what happened in thatregard is that those change
management resources workedclosely with the PMO and the
broader program PMO and theycame up with strategies on how
to address these.
I guess hotspots, specificcomms, there was putting posts
on billboards, there was allthese different sort of changes,
and the PMO helped to embedthat into the timelines and

(32:57):
update the schedule accordingly.
And if it wasn't for themworking together, there may not
have been that visibility up tothe executive level, which the
PMO had control of at the time.
So it's just one small examplethat I just thought of that I
thought might be useful.

Yeah, just building on that, Fatima, I've got an
example from a resources globalresources company in a very
similar situation that we'reimplementing technology to
support their maintenance areaof the business and they'd had
five attempts at implementingthe technology and aligning the

(33:31):
roles around using technologiesacross their different sites and
they'd failed four times.
And on the fifth attempt, theone thing that they did is they
used change managementassessment tools, like you're
describing, at differentmilestones across the delivery
and post-go-live period and thatenabled them to identify where

(33:54):
in the organization there wasresistance and to be really
specific about basically thetactics and the engagements that
they used to bring everyone upto speed and get them moving at
the same pace.
Right, because what we typicallysee with large-scale
deployments is one area of thebusiness will charge ahead,

(34:16):
they'll be the early adopters,they'll smash it out of the
water and then you'll havepockets in the middle and then
you'll have one or two or threethat are really lagging and it's
the lagging guys and girls thatwill actually drag the whole
project and the benefitrealization piece back.
So what I hear you'redescribing is the importance in

(34:37):
the change tools that you'reusing to be able to identify the
specific groups in the businessand areas in the business where
you need to focus effort.
I think is really important andI think there's a great role
for technology to play in that.
But I also know that goodchange managers and a lot of
those that are on the call willhave tools to be able to suggest

(35:00):
to PMO that at this milestone,this is what we need to test and
how we need to test it.
So I think, yeah, that's areally, really valid point that
you raise.

yeah, that that that's a really, really
valid point that you raise.
Okay, so I think hopefullywe've convinced everyone that
there is obviously importancearound change management.
But let's talk a little bitabout why do we think change
management is going to maturemore so in 2025 and, what's
important, what's driving it?
So maybe, matt, if you want tokick us off with your thoughts
on that, yeah, look I.

I think the key thing is greater level of
executive and board focus onbenefit realizations and we
spoke about that at the top, soI won't go into it in more
detail.
But I've definitely seen ashift, especially with the large
scale transformations and whereyou're talking that the board
is looking at, you know,investment in the hundreds of

(35:54):
millions of dollars.
We've got a client in the USthat's looking at a billion
dollar ERP implementationprogram, which just blows my
mind.
That number it just, itabsolutely blows my mind.
But when you think about thescale and the scale of
investment, it makes sense thatboards and executives are really

(36:17):
, really focused on the benefitrealisation piece and post go
live Because at the end of theday, they're looking after a
shareholder value and return onthat investment, on that
investment.
The other area that I see forTima and this when I'm talking

(36:38):
to executives they talktypically in two areas.
So they talk about what's goingto return value and grow the
bottom line and what's going toreduce our risk profile or shift
our risk profile.
So we've got reduced riskacross the business.
The other thing that I see thatPMOs and change managers will
need to do, moving forward, isconnect what the technology and

(37:01):
the change is doing to how thatsupports reducing business risk
across a business's risk profile.
They're the two things that I'mcontinually hearing that I
think will drive the maturity in2025.

I'd probably add from a PMO perspective, that
obviously you know I'm going tosay the word AI.
With the rise of AI and dataanalytics and other things like
that, having the ability to sortof, track and predict both
project and change managementoutcomes is going to become more
sophisticated.
We're already seeing many, many, many, if not all, the PPM

(37:39):
tools out in the market.
As a starting point, I'vealready embedded that over the
years and some are acceleratingthat at pace at the moment.
We're also seeing that thematurity around these is
starting to increase as well.
We're seeing plug-ins to aswell.
We're seeing plugins to youknow, things we use day to day,
like your Microsoft Teams, etc.

(38:00):
That are there to help testsome of these sentiments, and
it's one of the things that,again, that Mate does as well,
which is good to know.
Thinking about adoption ratesand sentiment analysis, like,
for example, one of the thingsyou know, just standard
technology that exists in almostevery organisation, whether
it's Confluence or SharePoint,simple things PMOs can look at

(38:26):
is the number of times thatsomeone is visiting a particular
page in terms of like a processor a how-to guide or wherever
the information is mostly beingsought after, and then focusing
some effort on understanding whypeople are going to that point
and then evolving that furtheras well.
And again, that's not somethingyou need technology for, but
it's something we can do today,whether we're a small PMO or a

(38:48):
large PMO.
And then I think the other sideof it as well is, I mentioned
earlier, around the PMO plugginggap.
So as much as we've got reallyskilled change management people
out there, unfortunately insome organisations regardless of
whether you're, you know, bigor small they sometimes don't
want to fund those resources forwhatever reason, and we want to

(39:09):
change that.
But in the absence of havinggood change management
capability in-house, we need tothink about how we as PMOs
ourselves can uplift and upskillso that we can be change ready,
and looking at embracing thatsort of change culture that you
would get from having that sortof resource in-house as well.

(39:30):
So, I think there's things youcan do, tech aside, but then
also we're seeing a shift andPPM is becoming something that's
becoming a lot more prominentas well.
So, yeah, there's a couple ofthoughts there.

Yeah, Fatima, and there was a question about
resourcing change teams in termsof size of team and where do
you get those resources from.
In the chat, and I think one ofthe things that I would share is
I've seen businesses look toupskill their you know business
resources or operationalresources in change, but

(40:05):
typically that needs to besupported by someone with change
expertise.
If you're going to take thatroute and I've seen it done
really well where organizationsbring in a small chain or team
of specialists to upskill theirBAU resources for projects and
those change specialists work ascoaches and advisors to the BAU

(40:27):
folk who are on temporaryassignment.
And then I've seen, obviously,organizations that have built
dedicated change managementoffice capacities with dedicated
resources.
So I think it's it's reallythat question and the answer to
that question is it's.
It's dependent onorganizational capacity,
resource availability and alsosize of project and size of and

(40:53):
complexity of the PMO thatyou're managing.
I would always advocate forusing specialist PR change
management resources in somecapacity, because they do bring
a detailed knowledge of tools,how to apply tools and how to
engage with stakeholders in away that is going to get the

(41:15):
best response and best level ofengagement out of those groups.

And from my perspective, what I typically
would start by asking is firstof all understand what the
capabilities that are needed.
So you've got to start andunderstand what you've got or
don't have within your program,your department, your enterprise
, and then understand obviouslywhere the capability gaps may be
.
So, for example, pullingresources from BAU or business
as usual operational teams tocome in and do that change

(41:44):
management role.
If they've got the capabilityfrom maybe past projects, that's
great.
If they don't, then gettingsome supportive, I guess change
management coaching willdefinitely help.
But what I find really usefulis, regardless of the size of
the organisation, having peoplefrom broader operational teams.
We're doing it at the momentwith the program I'm working on.
We know we need subject matterexpertise from finance and from

(42:08):
corporate risk and fromcompliance and all of these
functions.
So we're getting them into theprogram for, say, two to four
hours a week and they're wearingwhat I call a hatted roll.
It just means it's not theirfull-time job.
And what we're doing is theconsultancy teams that are in
there running this program asthe system integrator.
Basically they're sort ofhelping to upskill those people

(42:30):
and then they go back into theorganization and they constantly
cycle through in a positive way.
So over each project, over time, they build up that capability
and that skill so that theyretain that knowledge and they
take it back into theorganisation.
So I think that's a really goodway of bringing in that BAU
lens and enabling that to goback into the organisation and

(42:52):
over time you might find thatsome of those people become your
change champions andeffectively are the people that
you would lean on as morededicated full-time roles in the
programs that are more complex,like that $1 billion one that
you talked about.

Yeah, fatima, and it's a good point, and I think

(43:27):
some of the commentary andtrends that I'm hearing around,
specifically using the largescale consulting firms is one
that they tend is how do youintegrate them into your ways of
working so that you can extractvalue from the time that they
invest in your business andcontinue to grow your capability
.
Rather than what I have seen asa model historically is the

(43:50):
consultant will come in withtheir own set of tools, will
execute the change, but they'lltake the learnings and the
capability with them, and Ithink that's a big missed
opportunity for organisations,and all organisations will need
to use consultants at some pointin time.
It makes sense because you needto be able to upscale and

(44:11):
right-size your resource, buthow you use consultants and
ensuring that the consultantsare working to your ways of
working in your frameworks, Ithink is a really important
governance step if you want togrow your change capability and
if you want to build that intoPMO.

A hundred percent and as consultants, we
both can say that openly.
Don't bring consultants in andthen not have a process in which
to manage them, because you'lllose.

I feel like I'm doing myself out of work right
at some point in time.
We shouldn't say that I'm beinghonest, that's okay.

Okay, so let's just talk through a few ideas
about how PMOs can elevate theirrole and incorporate change
management better, and we won'tgo through all of these.
I just wanted to sort of sharea couple of ideas because we are
about 15 minutes from time, sothinking about some of the stuff
we've already talked about.
So one of the gaps, as I said,if you don't have a change

(45:11):
management capability, there isno harm, and I did this a few
years ago, where I attendedchange management training and
got a feel for all the sorts ofchange management frameworks and
models, et cetera, and thenright-sized that for the
organizations that I was workingin so effectively starting to
build in some of that capabilitywithin the organization.
Now this is in the absence ofhaving change management itself.

(45:35):
One of the other things that Ilove to emphasise and do so as
part of what we do in terms ofthe AMO way is we help companies
identify change and execute it.
Now the change I'm not talkingabout $1 billion ERP programs,
but they are microchanges.
So this is where I may suggestintroducing microprojects, and

(45:58):
doing that enables us to run anenterprise-wide visibility of
all of the sort of microchangesthat we need to make and think
of it as like a role incontinuous improvement program.
It's something that a PMO canfundamentally facilitate and
drives really good outcomes.
Then there's some other ideas aswell.
We talked about feedback loopsearlier.
That was one of the things.

(46:19):
Readiness assessment, sothinking about impact assessment
, the change and the governancecomponent, how to bring those
together and then measuringchange.
Whether you've got tech or youdon't have tech, if you do great
, leveraging the tools thatenable you to do that as well is
another opportunity.
And then the framework.
So I wouldn't go and build aproject management delivery

(46:39):
framework without integratingsome elements of change.
And if you've got the abilityto have change people involved
in that process, by all means,absolutely include them in that
process as well.
There's just a couple of quickexamples, matt, did you have any
you wanted to share?

No further examples , fatima.
Obviously, we collaborated onthis prior, but I think what I
would say is and just reinforcethe point that you made there
that as you're building out yourframeworks, I think it's really
important to have your changeand your PMO stakeholders at the
table, because not only do Ithink it's really important to
have your change and your PMOstakeholders at the table,
because not only do I think it'simportant to align on the roles

(47:16):
and have a governance structurein place that defines that for
what change will do to supportPMO and what the PMO will do to
support the change team, I alsothink it will open up
opportunities for the PMO tothink about how they can mature
their reporting by integratingchange metrics, and it will open

(47:38):
up a whole lot of opportunitiesin regards to identifying how,
by collaborating between changeand PMO, you can add greater
value for your stakeholders,your exec, your board and your
general business stakeholderswho are going to be recipients
of change.
So I think there's, you know,getting together and having that

(47:59):
conversation about definingwhat that looks like and what
the roles look like is a reallycritical step if you want to get
your PMO and change to workreally well together.

And, in the spirit of PMO, make sure it's
documented so clearly.
Establish those roles andresponsibilities, align those
roles and responsibilitiesacross your life cycle and
understand how and where theyfit in, with or without having a
change management function.
So make sure you have thataligned as well.
That'll help everybody to be onthe same page as well.

Yeah, and it's a great step to go through for
your external stakeholders aswell.
If you can go to your executiveor your GMs and go, this is
what PMO is going to do for thebusiness.
This is exactly what change isgoing to do for the business.
This is where our crossover isand how we work together, and
these are the reporting outputsthat we're going to deliver, so

(48:58):
you're going to be able to makebetter decisions.
I think that's a huge in termsof positioning the value of PMO
and change working together.
I think that's a huge benefitof of taking the time to go
through and and clearly definethe roles and and the crossovers
and collaboration points.

Great.
So just quickly share a couple,just a couple of insights very
quickly on this example and thenwe'll get into some questions.
So there was this particularorganisation.
It was a large governmentprogram, so it wasn't an
enterprise, it was a governmentprogram.
They had a big four consultancyrunning the change management

(49:36):
and was fully integrated.
So they had a complete changemanagement team and again it was
a big four consultancy.
And in that process and in thattime there was a lot of gaps and
there was a significantturnover of their change
management resources.
For whatever reason, maybebecause they were unable to
drive outcomes, maybe becausethe environment they were in was

(49:56):
very, very low maturity.
There was fundamentally flawsin the process, in the way that
they were rolling out theresponsiveness they were getting
from the internal teams as well.
There was quite a significantchallenge in and amongst this
organisation, in this largeprogram.
So one of the things that theyhave to do is figure out how to
change the way that they'reworking.

(50:17):
And partway through the program, around the testing phase, they
ended up having a change ofhead at the PMO level.
So at the time they were justhaving a project manager leading
the program under a programmanager, no PMO and then they
brought in a PMO, and this iswhere we ended up coming in and
actually understanding what thelay of the land was and what
some of the challenges were.

(50:43):
The PMO and the change teamstarted to work together.
They started to integrate andwork together to develop or
reset rather a structuredframework for how we were going
to implement and execute thischange, both from an internal
delivery perspective but alsofrom an external stakeholder
perspective.
We had the roles andresponsibilities you know, your
process, your tools, all ofthose things were done, but we
embedded structured changecontrol processes at the entry

(51:05):
and exit gates across thelifecycle.
We also made sure there wasclarity around what training was
needed and at what points andembedded that into our timelines
.
And we also made sure weredefined the role of change
management, because at the time,as I said, it was focused very
much outwards and there was nosort of internal support for the
delivery teams that wereresponsible for driving the

(51:28):
internal change.
So too much emphasis externallyand not enough emphasis
internally.
The low maturity environmentdid not help.
This program had cycled throughthree program directors until
the third time and cycledthrough three or four change
managers until finally.
The only thing that made thischange happen was not the

(51:49):
resources, but it was the changeand the PMO working together.
That was the single biggestimpact to the program being
successful and delivering.
So, just as a small example ofhow a well-structured,
sustainable, integrated way ofworking between change and PMO
in a program can actually comeback on track, Fatima, thanks

(52:11):
for sharing.

There's a question in the chat and I know we're
short on time, but the questionwas should the push for change
management come from the PMO orthe business?
I think my comment here is Ifeel and in my experience,
change management has found itvery difficult to get a voice in

(52:33):
a lot of organisations and toget traction for support, and
I've also seen that a lot ofstakeholders in business who
make decisions, they don'tunderstand the change processes
or the value that changemanagement can add.
So my response to the questionis should the push come from

(52:54):
change management or for changemanagement from add?
So my response to the questionis should the push come from
change management or for changemanagement from the PMO?
I think change management needsadvocates at the highest level
of the business and if you're aPMO director, I would strongly
recommend that you one advocatefor your change team and

(53:15):
investment in your change team,because otherwise I'm not sure,
depending on the organization,that the change team will be
able to get the traction thatthey need.
And that's a really frank andbrutal response, but it's
probably based on my experienceand look, I speak to a number of
CFOs around the value of changeand I get a lot of blank looks

(53:38):
when I talk about engagement andadoption and people.
So when the guys in those seatsand girls in those seats are
your decision makers, I thinkany type of advocacy and
influence to support change isreally important.

I second that and I'm very supportive and
sitting in that PMO directorrole many, many times.
I think the only caveat I wouldadd, charlotte, to your
question is if the PMO has theinfluence and typically the
higher up a PMO sits dependingon its reporting line, it will
have the influence and it canadvocate.
Where it doesn't and I've beenin many roles in the past that

(54:19):
just doesn't have a seat at thetable or doesn't have strategic
alignment, doesn't have anyauthority, really you'll
struggle.
So I think that depending onwho has the greater influence
whether it's change or the PMOin the organization, either way
advocating for each other, orthe PMO in the organisation,
either way advocating for eachother and I think that,
particularly when I think aboutit with my you know consulting

(54:39):
hat on, when you're going intoan organisation and you're
saying you've got challenges inthis space over here with all
your governance, and then you'vegot challenges when it comes to
change management, bysuggesting that you can help
bring the two together and solveeffectively problems in both
camps with a joint approach, isgoing to be far more greater and
more likely that they'll investthe resource, the time, the

(55:02):
capability, the capacity neededto help to influence and improve
the organisation, the program,et cetera.
So, yes, budget 100% is thechallenge, but to get budget you
have to.
Going back to my micro projectsidea if you can start by
identifying I do this in everysingle PMI I run identify all of

(55:24):
the micro changes and microchanges are things you can fix
within a day or a week, no moreand doing that, then you can
start getting runs on the boardand cross-promote visibility
internally and externally todrive influence, and then people
will want to bring you on boardto do more in their areas and
that's already happening in anumber of examples I can see.

(55:47):
So we Matt I think got almost100 questions and I went through
them before we put ourpresentation together and I
think we've covered a lot notall of them.
So I'm sure there's probablysome subsequent questions.
We can think about what wehaven't covered and distribute,
if you do.
If anyone has any additionalquestions that haven't been

(56:08):
answered, or if you reallyreally feel strongly about
getting an answer, send me anemail and I'll see to it for us
to get a response to you andwe'll try to get that back to
you.
Just to close out, a couple ofquick points.
Matt and I are doing a jointPMO change governance workshops,
and these are corporateworkshops that we'll be

(56:30):
facilitating, where we worktogether to help you understand
the role of PMR and changewithin your organisation what
alignment looks like, looking atyour existing structures,
making suggestions on bestpractice and what's worked
elsewhere and then help you toreally define an action plan to
move forward.
And that may include supportingyou with the business case

(56:52):
guidance to execs, or it mayjust be some recommendations
that might change the trajectoryof your function.
So if you're interested in that, I'll put a link in the chat
just to put your interest forthat.
And then, quickly one otherthing that Matt would talk about
.
He's briefly mentioned tech, soI just wanted to quickly go to
that.

Yeah, as part of our organisation, mate, we've
developed a significanttechnology platform that is
around delivering changemanagement intelligence, and I
think when we spoke about howthe change management reporting
can really help enable PMOs tonot only to report to exec and

(57:30):
board with confidence, but alsoreally drive adoption and
benefit realisation in thebusiness, the product's been
developed around achieving thoseoutcomes.
So if you're interested in atechnology solution to support
change and also that hassignificant benefits for PMO in

(57:51):
regards to reporting andengagement decision-making
prioritisation, please give us acall.
Love to share with you thecapabilities of the technology
and also our experience withimplementing it in large-scale
organisations.

Thanks, matt, so we'll put a link in the chat.
If you are interested in eitherthe workshop or the tech, or
even if you just feel likeasking us a question, send it
through and we'll make sure thatwe share it, sticking to time,
as we need to in PMO land, andbeing on time.
We're pretty much at the end ofour presentation and our

(58:30):
conversation today.
We hope we got through some ofyour questions.
We will send the recording outwithin a week, so for those that
would like to play it back.
Otherwise, as I said, the linkis in the chat if you're
interested in finding outanything about anything we've
covered today, and we hope thatyou've found today to be helpful
.
And, yeah, thanks for yourfeedback and, matt, thank you.

(58:52):
As always, love workingtogether and appreciate all your
valuable insights as a changemanagement expert.

Yeah, it's always a pleasure, Fatima, Thank you for
having me and yeah, can't waitfor our next conversation.

I know We'll have to do a follow-up just to
go through the 100-plusquestions.

Totally.

Awesome.
Well, thanks everyone.
Thanks for joining.
Thanks for the feedback.
Um, as I said, let us know ifyou've got any questions.
We will welcome them and, uh,we hope you had a good day,
enjoy the rest of your day.
Thanks everyone, bye thanks,all bye.

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#155 | PMOs Leading Change: Change Management & Organisational Agility (Live Webinar)

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