November 2, 2025 • 67 mins
What if governance didn’t feel like bureaucracy, but like momentum?
In this episode, we sit down with Amireh Amirmazaheri to explore how modern PMOs grow from “project admin” to strategic partner by blending trust, clarity, and creativity. We trace Amireh’s path from teaching and early IT architecture to leading major PMO transformations, showing how turning complexity into simplicity builds credibility and lasting value.
Together, we unpack the practical side of PMO impact:
Simple, human measures that leaders actually feel, from pain scores before and after interventions to meeting turnout, repeat attendance, and the moment teams begin to use your language without prompting. These signals often say more than dashboards ever could, because they prove adoption, not just activity.
We also explore how to tailor PMO services to fit industry, maturity, and culture, avoid “lift and shift” models, and use visual storytelling to make strategies memorable. A snail can represent slow delivery; a campfire can symbolize alignment. When people remember the picture, they act on the plan.
The conversation dives into global PMO trends, from the growing strategic influence of PMOs and the PMO-CP certification, to updates to the PMO Value Ring, now expanding its focus to include PMO strategy, design, and governance, with a new outer layer on organizational maturity, culture, and structure.
In this episode we discuss:
0:00 — Welcome and Guest Introduction
2:45 — Early Career and Entrepreneurial Roots
6:20 — From IT Operations to Projects
10:45 — Discovering PMO and Finding Purpose
15:05 — Building Trust and Credibility
20:30 — Defining Value and Simple Metrics
26:10 — Fit-for-Purpose PMOs and Tailoring
31:20 — Mindset Shifts and Risk Conversations
35:40 — Bringing Creativity into Governance
41:10 — Global Trends, Awards, and PMO Identity
47:30 — PMO Value Ring Updates and PMO-CP
53:20 — Elevating PMOs Outside the Bubble
58:00 — Closing Advice and Calls to Connect
If you’ve ever wondered how to make a PMO indispensable to the business, this episode is your playbook: build
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
You're listening to Agile Ideas Podcast, hosted by
Fatima Booty.
For anyone listening out therenot having a good day, please
know there is help out there.
Hi everyone and welcome back toanother episode of Agile Ideas.
I'm Fatima, CEO at AMO, MentalHealth Ambassador, and your
(00:21):
host.
Today's episode is well andtruly long overdue.
And the reason for this isbecause this lovely lady that
we're going to be speaking totoday is someone that has an
absolute heart of gold that I'vehad the pre privilege of knowing
for quite a while now, after sheand I met at an event in
Melbourne when she was down herefrom Sydney and just kicked it
(00:46):
off.
And ever since then, we've beencollaborating and connecting and
speaking, and it's been a realpleasure knowing her.
So please let me introduce youto Amira, Amir Mazahari.
Amira is a visionary leader inproject, program, and portfolio
management with 20 years ofinternational experience across
the Middle East and AsiaPacific.
(01:08):
As CEO of PMO Solutions andchair of the GPMF 2025, she's
known for driving strategictransformation through
human-centered tech-enabledsolutions.
She serves as the APAC hub leadand advisory board member at PMO
Global Alliance and isrecognized for bridging strategy
(01:29):
and execution, empowering PMO todeliver sustainable impact.
Her approach blends systemthinking, digital innovation,
and creative leadership to alignpurpose, people, and
performance.
It's going to be a funconversation.
So please join me in welcomingAmira to the show.
Amira, welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (01:48):
Thank you so much, Fatima, for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (01:51):
I was saying just before I was recording your bio
that we have been meaning to dothis for a very, very long time.
And uh it's finally here.
Too busy women not never findingthe time to meet and actually
talk in person.
So hopefully we get to do thismany more times as well.
SPEAKER_02 (02:09):
Yeah, that's uh that's always a pleasure to be
connected, to work with you andsharing the stage with you.
SPEAKER_00 (02:17):
And if you remember where we met, it was a few years
ago.
And I remember because I was ata conference in Melbourne, you
came down to be to uh to um havean exhibition at.
And I remember you just likesmiled at me and waved, and I we
didn't know each other, and Ijust thought, oh, this person's
so lovely.
And I was, you know, it was eversince then I think we've just
stayed connected.
(02:38):
It's it's great to you know besurrounded by other powerful
women that are you know makingwaves in this industry.
So let's get into it.
I want to start with yourbackground because you um
obviously are very deep in thisPMO project transformation
space, but that's not where youstarted.
Where did you start?
Tell us a little bit about yourbackground, your background.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
Um, Fatima, like I I don't know when I did I start
what.
But getting into theprofessional um journey, my
journey started when I was, Ithink I was 13 years old, 12, 13
years old.
So it was a time um that Istarted teaching what I was
(03:20):
learning.
So my whole my first journey, myfirst kind of like a working um
with outside a stakeholder, withexternal stakeholders and a real
customer was uh um on um and thetime I started to be a tweeter.
Um before that in I had in-houseand internal stakeholders, so I
(03:42):
had responsibility of managingum like a spring cleaning of the
house or having different peoplecoming in, coming out, or it was
a big event, I was kind of likea person who was um connecting
the dots together.
Um then by starting uh liketeaching and sharing the
(04:06):
knowledge, um that was mainlywith the purpose of um learning
and more learning of what Ilearned in the classroom.
Um so my my dad's analogy was ifyou want to learn, if you want
to pass the exam, so teach it.
Um and he was true becauseeveryone who um I was teaching
(04:29):
to had a lot to share and had uma different perspective of the
knowledge.
So that was a time that Ilearned um to listen to and I
learned to convert complexity tosimplicity.
Um then my entrepreneurialjourney um started from the time
(04:54):
that it was internet and I wasworking in a university and
nobody else had internet, eventhose, you know, the modem
dialing modem.
And um, you're not supposed,although you know my age, but
you're not supposed to count itnow.
Um so it started from the timethat I was downloading the model
for the flower bucket on thefloppy disk and walking around
(05:19):
to the flower shop and sellingthose uh floppy disks to them.
Uh so that was a time that I hadto market to be able to sell
something, um, and then alsoempowering those uh shops to um
just getting out of theircomfort zone and market what
(05:40):
they had to their customers thatis something new and some models
from the internet.
Um then I started my bachelordegree in um computer hardware
engineering.
Um along the way, I was alsoworking when while I was uh
studying.
Then I um got to the workforce,the former workforce very
(06:05):
quickly.
Um and that was after nine yearsworking so hard with uh
specifically in the oil andenergy industry.
Um, my journey from very purelyIT technical and a technology
side delved into the projectmanagement and I started my
journey with Primover Global,um, supporting all the
(06:27):
enterprise and mega projectsacross the Middle East region.
Um, and the time that I moved toAustralia, I was kind of like on
the other side of the fencedesigning and implementing
enterprise systems.
So I got my master's degree inIT with a focus on designing and
(06:47):
setting up enterprise businesssystems.
So when I'm talking aboutsystem, I'm not talking only
about a technology, I'm talkingabout the whole uh connecting
the dot and shaping up anorchestration.
And that was like, yeah, theseeding of the PMO space started
a long time ago from mainlyenabling and empowering and
(07:10):
leading people to get into thatdiscipline and organization.
Yeah, that was the startingpoint.
SPEAKER_00 (07:18):
It's um it's so interesting because when you
listen to that background,you're like, huh, it's it's so
um like so far now from whereyou started to what you're doing
now, and we'll get into that ina minute.
Um, but one of the things thatreally is a challenge for a lot
of people is when they go out ofan operational type of
(07:39):
environment.
Um, for those listening that arenot clear what I mean, like you
know, uh your um your IT role,HR, um, finance, etc.
So operational, business asusual, and then moving into
projects.
So how did you how did you uhinitially identify what projects
or project management was?
Did you fall into it?
(08:00):
Um, we were you seeking it out?
How did you actually make theconnection that that is
different to business as usual?
SPEAKER_02 (08:09):
So the thing is like um even in the IT, now I I know
I don't know about the otheroperational uh function in
depth, but I can say at thetime, uh specifically in IT, you
are you are also an enablerfunction.
So specifically for um thebusinesses which are um set
(08:31):
based on um enterprise projects,based on gigamega projects,
which are the like a bone and uhblood of the business.
Um IT is sitting as an as anenabler again.
Um one of the things that wenormally see, and it is very
common in IT Word as well, is adifferentiator between the IT
(08:55):
and the business.
But we can see when you are init, you can see that IT is part
of the business anyway.
It is part of the legs and handsof the business to make it uh
moving.
Um but on the other side, whenthey were talking about managing
their project and deliveringthat project, I'm not saying I
(09:16):
was the person who was hands-onto um managing those projects,
but I always were playing a roleof the enabler and a facilitator
of not either not only not onlytechnology level, but also
system level, but alsomethodology level.
And when I'm talking aboutmethodology is not about
(09:36):
initiating planning, design, andnot the project management
framework, I'm talking about away of working.
Um, so my main um like I startedfrom the big picture of the IT
and then architecture, theinfrastructure networking
architecture, mainly were on umCisco and Microsoft.
(09:59):
Um, one of the biggestachievements at the time that we
had was we connected 16 valves,um, oil valves across the whole
country to one singlecentralized location.
So our CEO was able to see umthe status of the valves on his
wall in his room.
(10:21):
Um, so for having such a thingat that time, like I'm talking
about how many years ago?
Like about 30 years ago, whichwas like the outlook was new.
Um, they were talking aboutfirewalls, like Yahoo Messenger
was around, so he had to blockYahoo Messenger in our network.
(10:44):
That was um that was that neededum a very good enabler uh
function to look at the businesselements and connect it
together.
My um takeaway of that is theoperational part of the business
is the enabler part of thebusiness, is the one that is
(11:07):
putting the bones um and thestructure and the foundation of
the business to move and be ableto look at those changes, look
at those uh projects um to beable to deliver that.
And if these two are notconnected and if this is a gap
between them, um that is that isnot the the the wheels are not
(11:32):
working together.
Um so my journey was exactly inthat middle.
So connecting the technologyside to the force that they were
so deep deep into projectmanagement, you know, in oil and
energy and engineering, projectmanagement is super technical.
(11:53):
Um, so I was not dive into thattechnicality, I was mainly
sitting um as a layer to enableum those technical knowledge to
support the success of theproject.
And when I'm talking about aproject, that was a like a huge
project.
It was actually the wholecompany was built around that
(12:15):
big, big mega project.
SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
And and that and that um nicely links into
transformation, exactly whichpeople throw around all the time
now, and there's different um, Iguess, different ways of
describing transformationdepending on the project, the
company, the maturity, whatyou've described there in that
sort of um industry aroundutilities and and energy or
(12:42):
mining and some of these reallycomplex uh transformation is
very different to what you wouldsee maybe in a small,
medium-sized business.
So um, when you think about thatcan conduit that you played
between, that that really stingsto how PMO at its heart comes
into it and really I can seewhere the skills transfer.
(13:03):
So, when did you first I guesslearn about what PMO was um and
really understood it?
And because that's somethingthat is you know not commonly
referred to.
So, where where in your journeydid you fall in love with PMO
and find out what it could dofor businesses?
SPEAKER_02 (13:21):
Um finding out the what the function of the PMO is,
right?
Yeah, and falling in love withit as you have.
Um I I I think normally, like,you know, when from the from the
very early age, I was always aperson who likes to um set the
(13:43):
scene, organize, make the thingshappen, moving it forward, um
getting the idea of where wewant to get to and make that
idea happen.
So always a person like liked toum do what I was saying.
Um and I was so like committedto my words.
(14:06):
Um when I came to Australia, umI was moved um uh from like uh
their region as a person who wasworking dedicated to Primavera.
Um so I moved to Australia andmy amazing loved um first
manager in Australia that I owehim a lot, and I would love
(14:27):
always to remember him as aperson that um the first person
in Australia who trusted me andgave me the stage to show my
strength.
And unfortunately, I lost him.
Uh, Wayne Wilson, uh, you youknow, I talk about him several
times.
Um, so he trusted me and he umput me forward um in the in the
(14:52):
Australian industry as aprimover consultant.
So our job was mainly to umembed into the Australian
business and then implement thatproject control system for them.
And then um after that I got umappointed to a project in latent
(15:13):
contractor, which was a CPP CPB,uh, and my second amazing
manager um as uh Robert Turner,uh, I was working with him, and
the function that we had, and myrole specifically was to take
care of the very like actuallywe had the largest um enterprise
(15:35):
of primavera in the wholeAustralia and New Zealand, uh,
and I was taking care of thatpart, and our whole group was
the one that we were enabling umother project controls and the
projects that was at the timewith latent contractor.
That was the time that I gotmore familiar with the concept
(15:57):
as a name of the PMI, um, but Iwas always arguing that hey, I
am not a business analystbecause I did um the
certification of PMI PBA.
I actually was one of the firstones that I got that
certification, um, which isgreat.
It is talking aboutfacilitation, it's talking about
(16:18):
finding the requirements, um,asking the right question, how
to connect people together, howto understand the different
people's needs, which was veryaligned with what I was learning
when I was teaching as well,because I'm also a certified
trainer in project management.
So we learn a lot ofpsychological um you know things
(16:42):
to understand how to communicateand how to convey the message.
Um, that was the time that I wasthinking, like, we are not a
business analyst, but we aresitting between the the wheels.
And then Robert was alwayssaying that you are the oil
between the wheels.
Um I said, like, what is thisfunction?
This function is not, we are notmanaging projects, we are not
(17:05):
controlling a project, we arenot IT, we are not B BA, so what
it is, and then that was thetime that I was looking at and
um got the concept of the PMO,which um, if you remember, um
the PMO journey started fromthat project management office
things, uh the admin of stuff.
(17:27):
So that was the time, and thenbecause of my role within latent
contractor, I really loved it.
Because like, you know, I Idon't know if I think but like
when you see that like peopleare coming to you and then they
follow the things, and you seethat orchestration and you see
(17:47):
that big picture that the thingsare working together, that's
very pleasing and very uhenjoyable.
Um and the backbone of all ofthese are the people.
Um, so kind of like, and thepeople are never getting boring,
right?
There it's always something newyou're learning um in connecting
(18:09):
the dots together.
So that's why um the thespecific tag name of my
expertise land on the PMI space,mainly.
SPEAKER_00 (18:20):
It's so um such a beautiful story.
Um, first of all, sorry aboutlosing Wayne, um, but it's so um
so great to see just how um umyou light up.
Um you're one of the mostpassionate people I know in the
project management office spacefor those that don't know what
PMI stands for.
Um, and you just light uptalking about it.
So it's amazing um to be to seethat.
(18:43):
Um I wanna I want to go back toyour first manager in Australia.
You said something reallyimportant.
You said the first person thattrusted you.
SPEAKER_02 (18:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
So there's people here today that are going to be
listening to this, thinkingabout maybe they're early in
their career or maybe they'retransitioning into a different
part of their career.
And perhaps one of the thingsthat they could benefit from is
how do you how did you buildthat trust with someone?
And and what would you recommendfor them if they want to become
(19:12):
that trusted, I guess, trustedpartner, and over time, like
you've become a trusted advisorto a lot of companies.
How do you build the trust um sothat people like Wayne um
trusted you to get the job done?
SPEAKER_02 (19:25):
Um, you know, trust is a relationship, it's a
two-way relationship, it's umlike a 50-50 relationship.
Um it is, and then I I actuallyreally like this subject.
Uh building the trust is one ofmy favorite subjects, um,
specifically in the leadership,because the trust is changing.
(19:50):
Like um that I was I saw acomic, and then the girl was
saying, like, um, give me showme your Instagram um chat, and
then she was showing, show meyour Facebook chat, and then she
was showing, show me youremails, she was showing, and
then all the text messages, andthen they asked me, like, show
me your chat GPT conversation,and then she ran out.
(20:13):
So you see that, like, we aregetting to the point that now we
are trusting an AI agent, um,and we are saying everything to
it.
Um, so if you're looking at thatum journey, we can see even the
trust is changing its shape,right?
And always make this examplelike like um 10 years ago, would
(20:37):
you um trust an estranged personfrom another country booking his
like or her house and goingthere and staying in that house
and paying that person?
So it is like look at that howhuman is um evolving as well.
Um but at the end of the day,when you are looking at that
(20:59):
trust is to be true um and to beto your word are the elements of
the trust.
So, first of all, say likesaying, presenting, modeling um
the thing that you trulybelieve, um, and repeating that.
(21:19):
Um it's all about creating thatmomentum and then showing that I
am this with all the goods andthe bads.
Sometimes I'm good, sometimesI'm not good.
I I I talk to you a lot aboutlike we talk and chat together.
So you see that, like the otherday the lady called me and said,
How are you?
(21:39):
and one of the customer serviceum for my car, and then she
said, How are you?
I said, I'm not good.
Like so it's it's just to betrue to the words.
Um, and at the end of the day,all of us are human.
I would love to use this stageand invite people um to reflect
(22:03):
on them on themselves that howmuch are you executing of your
words and your beliefs.
And on the other side, for thepeople who has this stage, who
has the power, who are sittingin a place that they are making
a decision, is uh truly openyour eyes into the people who
(22:25):
are coming to you with a trueheart and trust those ones that
they are saying, I do it foryou, I make this happen.
Because if you don't trust thosepeople, if you don't, if you
don't give them their stage, umthey don't will not have the
(22:45):
opportunity to shine.
And it was very interesting whenum I was talking to Rain and I
told him, like, I never forgetthat you trusted me on a day
that so many people, if thatresume that I brought by with
myself from Iran, if it was memyself now, I wouldn't recruit
that person, I wouldn't put thatperson in front of the customer.
(23:06):
So he trusted me, and that trustgave me power to stand up and do
my best, no matter what ishappening.
And he was always there, even ifI made a mistake.
So give that not only yourselfsaying, like, I don't know
everything, but whatever I know,I will do my best, and the
(23:27):
person who is making a decision,the other side of the equation,
let the people to make amistake, let them to um shine,
and that is gonna make you shineas well.
So that's a two-way things, um,which I don't know how we can
formulate it, but this is thisis only my thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (23:48):
It's it's a good point because um I don't think
there's uh necessarily a formulaor a model, because if you're
being true to yourself, thenreally it should shine through.
I I resonate a lot with how yourrelationship was with your
manager and and like you said,the the trust factor there,
because if I think back to anumber of instances in my
(24:08):
career, there are definitelymoments where I didn't think I
was equipped or well um suitedperfectly to a position or a
role, but because the the peoplethat I was dealing with maybe
saw passion, like I see yourpassion, or maybe they see what
you described around walking thewalk and talking the talk, they
(24:30):
then give you that opportunitybecause they believe that you're
gonna stick to your word.
So I definitely think thatsometimes it's not about your
years of experience, but it'show people see you and and
experience you and how you makethem feel.
SPEAKER_02 (24:44):
Yeah, exactly.
Like I I um uh ran um a surveyin LinkedIn, which was about I
was curious about to find outlike what makes the customer
retention high.
Um, I'm so proud and also humbleto say like in PML solution we
(25:04):
have over 95% customerretention.
And I was just like curious tosee like how people are seeing
it uh out there.
That is it because um theexperience that you're they are
receiving, or because of theservice they are receiving,
because of their relationship,but what is that?
And then it was very interestingthat the the majority was saying
(25:28):
because of the experience.
So at the end of the day, that'sthat experience that matters,
and then that is the main thingthat makes PMO successful as
well.
Um, to how you are defining whatexactly you're doing and what
pain you're fixing.
Um, so that's that's that mainlittle trick from um PMO Squad
(25:54):
um survey last year in 2024.
We can see that 64% of the PMOsare not able, like are actually
challenging demonstrating theirvalues, which is lying down in
that way of like creating thattrust, creating that momentum,
creating that experience withyour customers in the business.
(26:15):
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
It's so easy for people to throw the word value
around.
Value, value, value.
Oh yeah.
And you know, honestly,sometimes it's it's so much as
long as you provide value.
And it's like, what's value?
Value is a bottle.
It's just, it's just, it's veryeasy to just throw because it's
not measurable, right?
Like realistically, unlessyou've got metrics around it.
(26:37):
So maybe on that point, um, I'mkeen to get your thoughts on
maybe um if you were assessingwhether a PMO was doing a good
job, be it the person leadingandor the the outputs of the
function itself, what would bethe two or three things that you
would advise an executive?
Pay attention to these two orthree things, and that will help
you guide whether your PMO isdoing a good job.
SPEAKER_02 (27:01):
Um, you know, Fatima, have you like ever been
in a doctor and they're askingyou out of one to ten, how much
is painful?
And you're saying, oh, 10, I'mdying, right?
And then after they are doingsomething, um, you're saying,
okay, they are saying out of oneto ten because they want to
measure measure, like they wantto have some kind of like a
(27:25):
odometer on it to say, like,okay, how what is the pain?
And you're saying it is five.
So this is a 50% pain reduction.
Right?
This is the experience that youhad with that um treatment
journey.
So that is the value that thattreatment journey brought to
(27:46):
you.
And the thing is, like, if youare making it too complicated.
I I'm seeing hearing that, like,oh, the value is the profit that
we are making, the value isthat, the value is, but like,
yes, but is the challenge ofthat business is to make profit
or is to get into more customer,or to just stay where it is,
(28:10):
like just continue doing what itis.
So we need to create thatlanguage to say, like, okay, out
of one to ten, but beingconsistent in their our range of
measurement, being consistent ofhow we are talking to them and
how we are creating andestablishing that experience.
(28:32):
You know, so value is yeah,you're right.
Everybody's talking value, andthen you're asking them, okay,
what is value?
SPEAKER_00 (28:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (28:39):
They're like, hey, it's just just just ask what do
you want from me?
Why do you want me here?
What if I'm not here?
Remember, it's actually one ofthe conversations that we had
together, and I think it was along time ago, and you mentioned
that, and it's always in myhead, and I ask this question
(29:02):
actually, and I always um bringyour name in as well.
Um, just remove what you'redoing, just turn off the report
that you're putting on.
And if nobody is coming andasking you, get rid of it, where
is it?
It doesn't add any value, right?
Exactly, exactly.
This is the way um you aretalking about the value.
(29:26):
The value can be yourcommitment.
Um, so when you are talkingabout walk the talk, is your
commitment that you're puttingin actually your baseline?
And are you delivering based onthe baseline or a commitment
that you had?
So um that is the value, right?
(29:46):
This is a formula in earnedvalue in project.
Yeah.
You are looking at the baseline.
Yeah.
So as long as value is a bigthing and then like a buzz.
word and like like the strategyexecution we are here to make
you successful that that and butlike at the end of the day um
(30:09):
what we are doing really yeahand do you really want us so I
always ask this from mycustomers that do we're still
interested do you want us hereor not um are we really helping
you out of one to ten how muchwe are helping you and they're
saying like oh two bye so you'renot this this is yeah just I
(30:35):
think that's that's simple.
SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
You know it's interesting because you're right
I we do we do talk about the theconcept of you know turn small
things like I mean everyonetalks really big strategy and
huge KPIs and metrics and I knowwhen we were doing some work
together you your your team umand yourself created this really
good list of KPIs that PMOs canuse that that's all well and
good.
But sometimes I feel like it'sthe small thing.
(30:59):
So exactly what you described interms of the relationship asking
a simple question like a GP,like your doctor would ask one
of the other measures that I'veseen firsthand recently that I
think is really worth callingout is obviously in the PMO,
depending on what we're doing,particularly when we're we're
running you know large programsof work where we're supporting
(31:19):
delivery and we're trying tomake sure all these things are
happening sometimes we find, Ifind that we have to communicate
a lot of messages and you've gotto put meetings in place, you've
got to bring people together,you have to get awareness,
educate, etc, etc, etc.
And I don't know about you, butI find that the more complex the
program the more meetings thePMO has to set up and I find I
(31:42):
set up a lot.
I reckon a really good measurethat's so simple is how many
times in those meetings what'sthe turnout of people that turn
up to your meetings?
How many times can you simplifysomething so rather than making
people um making people getinformation in a way that suits
(32:03):
you as the person running it,provide opportunities for them
to come and be part of a whetherit's a knowledge share session
or something.
And I find the number of peoplethat return to things like that
is a really good metric becausepeople are joining PMO sessions
and PMO classes and training andall that's a really good sign
that you're doing a good job.
So that's one of the small onesthat I just feel like is really
(32:26):
relevant that I've seen recentlythat I think could maybe help
some people as well.
SPEAKER_02 (32:31):
Yeah and the other thing is um you know um yeah we
have like if you read KPI like apractice guide all the services
has KPI yes absolutely so that'sa norm.
Like you know as a standard termwhen you're looking at it you
want to wait you want to do theweight loss there are a specific
(32:51):
KPI that you can measure againstit.
But it is up to you which one iswhich one is related right so
the list is fantastic and it'sreally valuable to have a list
of those KPIs a list of like akind of um having a reference
(33:12):
but saying that the art of thePMO is to find out what is fit
for what yeah right and thenthat's the thing one of the very
like a very simple um kind oflike um um point or some some of
the things that you can see thatthis is they are moving.
(33:34):
I even found it simpler thaneven sitting in a meeting I
found it when your customersstarted saying repeating your
words and getting to thatlanguage and getting to that
discipline without themrecognizing that they are
(33:57):
following something yeah andthey think that they are doing
it by themselves that those arethe moments that I celebrate in
my heart.
Yes yes although I'm not sayinganything but I'm saying yes they
got it you know that's the pointI was like you know 100% yes I I
(34:18):
got to the point of like andthen I learned that a lot um um
it's not about knowing it'sabout doing and being so it is
very important that if I am aPMO I am a I am really a PMO in
(34:39):
life right as I'm saying like mymy little one my five years old
has a Kanban board um and sheplans her things like she's
doing what what she has done orum I always I was working in um
Sydney maintenance contractwhich is one of the main um
(35:02):
contracts in Sydney and in NSWfor doing the infrastructure and
the um intelligent transportsystems maintenance works which
is a very huge busy like highvolume portfolio and then I
always have my um diary in myhand and then I had a block of
(35:25):
the timing and then like thediscipline of putting the like
you know ticking off the habitsand they were making a joke of
me and said like two weeks laterWednesday what is your lunch and
I was telling them that like forexample I don't know my salmon
beef and then oh look look atthat you know it's it's all
(35:48):
about doing and being con thatconsistency that repeating that
when your customers arerepeating what you're saying are
are looking at the discipline asa way that is their habit this
is a time that you're successfulno matter what that's a value.
SPEAKER_00 (36:08):
Yeah a hundred percent it's so interesting you
say that because I I I justrecall like we talk a lot um at
AMO about like the AMO way andcapability in a box and blah
blah blah but um when we wouldwork with clients similar to you
we have you know our own modelsand methods and processes and
tools etc but we don't go inthere and say hey we're gonna
(36:28):
use the AMO way and we're gonnado this we're gonna because one
that's gonna overwhelm them.
It's not right fit, right time.
But we use it to run projectsand the programs and do the
governance and all that.
And then by the end of itthey're actually going oh um I
thought we were going to usethis or we use that and it's
like we have been the whole waythrough but you tailor what is
(36:50):
needed and I think PMOs reallystruggle that I see many of them
go from one organization, liftand shift what they did there
and bring it to another but theindustry might be different the
maturity might be different theexperience the language is
different the acronyms aredifferent and it's not the right
fit all the time.
(37:11):
It took me a long time to figurethat out it also took me a long
time to figure out that it's notabout me as the PMO leader.
It's about those that we supportbeing the stakeholders and the
delivery teams and theexecutives and things.
SPEAKER_02 (37:22):
So it's a really um it's a really timely reminder I
think the right fit um the righttime the right place not
assuming that it's a one sizefits all yeah this is another
another one the fit for purposeyou know a strategy execution
value delivery fit for purposebut if then you're getting into
the into the like a really DNAof these words implementing
(37:48):
these words is the art of thePMO so not everybody can be a
PMO then a hundred percent andnot everyone can be an
entrepreneur um they could trybut it doesn't suit some people
my husband would not be a goodentrepreneur and nor does he
have an interest in doing so umlikewise I think there's some
(38:09):
really talented projectmanagement professionals that
would be exceptionally good atdelivering projects and programs
but some of them have gone intoPMO and they've failed and
likewise there's some that arereally good in PMO but have not
come across the projects verywell because they're better at
the governance and the oversightand the reporting and the
(38:30):
control and the conjuit conduitbetween stakeholders so I think
there's a definitely a a blurredline there that um people
probably just need to be a bitmore aware of I I I on that
point wanted to ask if you thinkabout the mindset behind change
which um is necessary for a PMOleader what do you think one
mindset shift that they couldmake to make them have a bigger
(38:54):
more meaningful impact in theorganizations they're supporting
a lot my friend favorites um thething is like there is no right
and wrong um so I always saythat and I I truly believe on
(39:15):
that one although my umperfectionist Amira um comes up
my overthinking Amira comes upand say like no no no no this is
not right this is not good so umbut I started learning not
started kind of like um when Isaw the soxes which is the time
(39:37):
that my customers are thinkingum differently is the time that
I put that in my head that beingbiased um and instead of talking
about no you should not go thisway we should go that way I
started to talk about risk Istarted to talk about what are
the consequences and how we areseeing it.
(40:01):
And saying that Fatima is veryinteresting that I learned that
more from Jasmine my five yearsold in terms of logic and then
bringing that logic together andthen saying because of this fact
and because of this fact this isthe consequences so and then
(40:22):
when you're talking about factfact consequence then they
you're activating the thinkingcells instead of bringing the
gates up when you are talking inyour business.
(40:43):
I saw that this is happening andthat is getting as a cause of it
so this is gonna be theconsequence of it how much are
you ready for it um so and thenlike um that mentality of being
patient and um kind of like Idon't know being patient and
(41:08):
being careful about yourcustomers is very important.
It's uh like a function of PMOis a very very customer care
function.
It's not um it's not orderingit's not um managing it's
leading it's enabling which weare always making a mistake of
(41:31):
the role of the PMOs and that isthe thing um I had a I had a
video of the good bad ugly so insome of the cases we can see um
that hey guys it's okay it's nota rank or writing in PMO space
it's all about the logic thefact the consequences as well so
(41:55):
that's my takeaway everybody hasone.
You're very um you're very goodat blending creativity and
structure which you justdescribed very well um and you
just talked about risk and I'm Iknow there's probably people out
there that want to make surethey've got the structure and
maintain all of that and provideall of the sometimes rigidity
(42:17):
but sometimes adaptiveness buthow do you bring creativeness
into that process where a lot ofPMO is about governance how do
you bring creativity intogovernance yeah um I don't know
it's it's kind of like I I thinkthat's a natural uh thing coming
(42:39):
um but uh saying that I Istarted painting when I was nine
years old nine ten years old umand I was I was me and my
brother started um paintingtogether I was the one that um
(43:00):
painting whatever they were gavegiving me so if they gave me
this I was painting this but mybrother was the one that when
they gave this to him he waspainting whatever he thought
that this can be looked likeokay you know so he was adding
that imagination into it.
Yes um saying that that helpedme to say like it is okay if we
(43:27):
just come up with something thatis not within the frame.
And when I came to Australia andum beautiful vein put me in
front of people to teach themproject management my I always
say that my main goal was peoplesitting in my room are not
asking me a question.
(43:47):
So my target was zero questionbecause I I was a struggling of
like my my English wasn't thatgood.
So I started using that paintingand um kind of creativity
bringing the storytelling andthen painting for them on the
wall like the characters movingtogether and then telling the
(44:09):
story that they do not have anyquestion.
So kind of like limitation butalso um thinking that you are
okay if you do the thingsanother way around um are
getting together and then givebring that creativity in.
(44:31):
And then moving forward in PMRspace I can see that um we are
all about those presentationthose uh you know ugly charts
and things so my artistic eyenormally is a person who like
I'm I'm curious about like I I'mvery fussy about what coloring
(44:52):
I'm putting it what are thecolors how they are setting
together how it comes to theeyes is it Freddy or not?
And then I met Paul Telling fromVisual Storytellers.
So that we tied together handsand then we started bringing
that art and creativity into PMRspace.
(45:13):
So now specifically for thosecustomers that they have um a
lot of resistance of seeing thejourney or a lot of resistance
of seeing the plan we actuallyconvert the plan into posters to
the story.
Like in one of the um postersthat we created like part of the
(45:35):
roadmap are the people arearound the campfire and it was
very interesting that we gavethat poster to our customer as a
PMO roadmap and they didn'tremember what was that roadmap.
They remembered the poster likeoh that one that snail that is
moving slow is a reflection of aslow delivery and then getting
(45:58):
to around the campfire or it wasa character looking at um
outside to the uh to the cityshowing that the vision that
they can have and the visibilitythat they can have behind the
long trees um so they rememberedthose and we are as a human like
we we love that um look at theyour iPhone the time that um
(46:22):
Steve Jobs put the iPhonetogether was by by art it wasn't
technology right no so i've seenyour um I've seen some of your
work in the I've seen your youruh little comic that you created
I've seen some of the artisticand actually it was one of our
early conversations that you uminspired me to take a bit more
(46:43):
of a um proactive um uh lens andand make things a little bit
less boring for some customersbecause you're right governance
is can be quite boring sobringing some of that creativity
in art is actually really areally good idea and um I
definitely learned a lot moreabout that from you so keep up
the good work there it'sdefinitely um inspiring
(47:03):
customers and people like myselfso thank you the other thing I
can bring it in I'm I'm sure youand your customers your
listeners are gonna love but Ihad to um attend on a stand up
comedy course.
Oh okay to learn how to um takethe moment and then create some
(47:28):
fun out of it uh specifically inEnglish um so that was very
helpful I was the worst studentin the class but I learned a
lot.
SPEAKER_00 (47:37):
Well I didn't do comedy although I think that's a
real good idea.
I was listening to a podcastthis morning and um and the um
the the doc the doctorspecialist they had um heart
he's a heart doctor and a heartsurgeon and he was saying that
if you can um even pretend laughor get into laughing clubs where
(47:58):
they just laugh not becauseanything's really funny but it
stimulates the vagus nerve andthat I think can make a really
good um impact to your health aswell.
So that's really smart.
I think that's good.
I think I did a drama courseonce um to learn how to do
presentations better.
Not so long ago.
But yeah I think these thesesorts of things would be so
(48:18):
great um in these organizations.
I think it's a really good wayto bring fun and and I know that
when we when you know I'veworked in in different teams
it's really hard sometimes butthere is that resistance and
you've got to find differentthings.
There is some organisationswhere some of that artistic
(48:39):
stuff is just not going to gowell.
In some some mining teams forexample I've seen change
management um go very badlywhere they've attempted dinosaur
stickers for example and theydidn't go very well.
Where in other organizations itmakes a lot of sense.
So I think you've got to go backto what you said earlier around
the right thing for the righttime and the right people.
(49:01):
So I think that's um it's areally good um it's a really
good thing that you guys aredoing.
So well done on that.
SPEAKER_02 (49:06):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (49:08):
I just we're getting close to the end of our
conversation I did want tocircle um to a couple of things.
So there's been a lot of changesin the PMO community with the
work that you um and the teamare doing as part of the PMI PMO
GA Global hub and then the APAGhub that you've set up and then
you um being um part of the wellbeing the chair for the global
(49:29):
project management conferenceand so I wanted to kind of ask a
two part question.
So one of them is what are youseeing are the biggest trends
right now or coming up in PMOfrom all of that community that
you're part of and then I wantedto touch on um what's changed in
the PMO value ring and explain abit more about that for people
(49:49):
that don't know what it is.
SPEAKER_02 (49:51):
So maybe if you could answer those two maybe we
start with the GMF GPMF and thegeneral community what's the
vibe what's the trends thatyou're seeing and hearing you
see um Patima like um I I wastelling you like the about the
culture and about the people ummindset um like um I can see the
(50:16):
Global Project Management Forumwas an amazing opportunity.
I'm not saying that was easy jobit was a huge job out of my
little um comfort zone so Iactually um at the time that I
was doing it I was like what ifit goes bad?
Because it was huge.
(50:37):
I was dealing with 500 leadersum selecting them saying no to
someone and then bringing themalong and then also going with
very new way of setting up theconference was was challenging.
I was not alone I had acommittee team that they're um
(51:01):
supporting but the whole designof the program was um from our
side and um first of all huge Ican't say appreciation to bader
Borshead for his trust um andthe way he trusted me and then
led me gave me the stage to makea decision on on on the go um
(51:25):
and tweak and pivot at the timewas very amazing.
But what I also saw that is ummy friends in Australia it's not
a time to sit down and justwatching to see where the word
is going.
This train is moving you want itor you don't want it you need to
(51:50):
get into this train um PMO spaceis moving now PMO is not a
little child anymore it is nowgrowing up it is now stepping
into the place that is talkingabout its identity we are
looking at the case studies umfrom the PMO uh global awards
(52:14):
and I'm so um proud to say allof us in PMO so like like this
is the only homework that we allcommitted to do is to be the
judge in a PMO global award it'swe can see that the ethical and
the ones that are really reallytruly embed into their business
(52:37):
and they are part of thebusiness they are part of the
hands and the head and the eyesof the business are the
successful one.
But saying that the PMOs thatare truly the partner of the
business are the ones that areplaying the best role of the PMO
and they are actually acting ontheir own right position.
(52:58):
The winner of this year it wasvery interesting looking at them
from the different region and Ihave to work a lot put a lot of
effort to encourage Australiancompanies to throw their hat
into the ring and unfortunatelywe haven't like the the uh the
(53:21):
most successful one was thisyear that get into the semifinal
but we are not getting up itmeans it has a lot of saying
that we had a lot to do we had alot to understand and this is
not a message for only PMOpeople this is a message for the
business that understand thatnot everybody can be a PMO and a
(53:45):
good PMO is the one that is yourright hand to make a decision.
It's your right hand to reportto the board bring that
visibility of the risks and whatis happening in the business
what is going on not only on theproject to your board expect
(54:05):
these sort of things from yourPMO like what master schedule
and this kind of stuff they arerequired but this is not the
maximum potential of a good PMO.
So the trend is moving the PMOsare getting very much stronger
you can see with the strategicmovement of the PMI of buying
(54:28):
PMO global alliance and now wecan see such a person like
Americo Pinto now it is sittingand working in with PMI to
strengthen this profession is avery good opportunity to
recognize PMO as a specificprofession in project
management, which I'm so proudto say that the PMO CP um which
(54:52):
is not new right like welaunched PMO CP um in 2018 in
Tesla showroom in Australiaright that was the time that
America came to Australia.
So PMOCP is a greatcertification that is going to
give you the fundamentals andthe knowledge of what can PMO be
(55:14):
about um you ask a very goodquestion like in terms of the
PMOGA EPACHUB we are one of thehands of the PMOGA global that
which we are actually reportingto America and the global
leaders in the PMO space we areworking hands in hand with the
(55:36):
PMR chapters um we are umsetting up and delivering some
webinars and some uh studygroups and support as a
knowledge management as anexpert um to the project
management community the otherthing that we are we have in our
roadmap is uh we are bringingthe cases from the global um PMO
(56:00):
award and we will have asimulating the judging um
sessions for the people so thatyou can join uh there will be
discussion about that specificcase so you can learn from your
peers as well so the main visionof the PMO GA APAC hub is to
connect PMO community togetherand um empower PMO professionals
(56:21):
to learn from each other umwhich I know like the APAC hub
uh finalist uh the APAC finalistfor uh PMO Global award is
actually a very strong applicantum and they have done an amazing
job um moving forward um andlike maturing their PMO in their
(56:43):
business um in terms of the PMOvalue ring you know the I go
back to the main concept and thecore of the value ring which is
customer so there are a lot ofapproaches in terms of setting
up a PMO I have uh like in oneof the uh discussion panel that
(57:05):
I was there the question waswhat is the best um and the must
service that the PMO should haveand I said like I don't know it
really depends on the customerof that PMO and the the
facilitator was kind of like doyou really know PMO and uh like
(57:26):
then they were talking about noschedule management training is
the must methodology frameworkand I was like no guys it is it
really depends on and then yesyou know when we are talking
about the value is really whatis matter to that business and
what is matter to that customer.
Yes um so the first version ofthe PMR value ring was mainly
(57:48):
focusing on um the customerasking the expectations and then
translating those expectationsinto the services and then
talking about the when theseservices you can expect to see
the values and then how you canum in terms of the scenarios
that you have in your businesshow these services can address
(58:11):
those services.
There were some indicators inthat PMO value version one which
were like a capability indicatoradherence indicator expectation
indicator adherence indicatorwhich were mainly saying what my
customer wants what how much Ican make them happy so what is
(58:33):
the reality and how much I amable to make them happy and
specifically you cannot makeeverybody keep everybody happy
right and how much I am capableof delivering these services and
what is the maturity of theseservices currently in the
business and I want to get to umthe PMO value ring version two
(58:56):
which is now in a PMO practiceguide in a simple word is
looking at um breaking downthose um eight steps from the
version one to 10 steps aroundthe customer but is also looking
at another three layers outsideof the customer connection like
(59:16):
the the core of the customer andthose 10 steps is actually
looking at it's itself as a PMOas an entity looking at what are
the PMOs strategy what is thePMO design and what is the PMO
governance and then also in thenext layer which is the broader
layer is looking at the the uhfour aspects of the organization
(59:38):
of the maturity of theorganization culture of the
organization structure of theorganization so it is trying to
embed um all the elements thatare um defining that function so
I'm going back to your first umuh discussion that you have
about the operational rolemoving from operational Role to
(01:00:00):
the business role is actuallylooking at to glue all those
elements together and thensaying, okay, um if in the in
the previous version was whereabout the PMO to identify the
reality, is now there aredifferent domains that you can
put the reality and then havinga factful um kind of like a
(01:00:26):
reliable conversation with yourstakeholder.
So the new PMO CP is mainlylooking at this new wheel, which
is still customer is in themiddle.
Um there are different phasesthat your customer is going,
different steps you're takingthrough, um, and also what is
the structure of the PMO and howthis PMO is fitted into that
(01:00:48):
business body.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:50):
So it's interesting because um the way you just
described that goes back to yourfirst point, which is the PMO is
growing up.
It is maybe anymore.
I'm seeing my talk growing up,and I'm like, wow, since you'll
be in primary school and highschool and all those sorts of
things.
So I agree with you completelyon that point.
Um, I probably a little bit lessthan you, but about 20 years now
(01:01:13):
since I first got into theconcept of this project space
and PMO space, and I've never inmy um 20 years seen it as
prominent and as important andas purposeful as it is these
days.
And I think we have to give someum definitely give some credit
to um many people, um, Americo,um Joe in the US, um Laura,
(01:01:37):
Laura, the UK team.
Um there's so many reallyexactly so many really strong
PMO thought leaders that are notcalled thought leaders because
they've decided to callthemselves that, but people like
us will reflect um our views andcall them that.
And they like like ourselves andand many others have done so
(01:02:00):
much tireless work to bring PMOto the to the strategic um
table.
And so I'm really excited to seewhat comes of this, um, to see
more.
I'll share notes about the PMOCP, the certified practitioner
um uh certification.
Uh we'll share more about um GEPMF as well.
(01:02:22):
And um, I think that people willget a lot of value from looking
into those things, particularlyas a really good, I guess,
benchmark, particularly becauseof how many people have been
involved in the originalcreation and then obviously the
updated version.
So thank you for sharing.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02:36):
Yeah, you know, Fatima, that's uh my pleasure.
But like um the thing is,Fatima, at the moment, among
PMO, specifically PMOpractitioners, I'm not talking
about whoever is a PMO, right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:02:47):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02:47):
I have a lot of conversation with so many
people.
Okay, what do you do?
I am project manager, I'mprogram manager, I'm a PMO, I do
business analysis, I do this.
I'm talking about those onesthat are like live and breathe
like yourself in PMO space.
I like you know, I always saythat to people like, hey, I
(01:03:08):
don't know anything else, but Iknow PMO very well.
Um we are all responsible toeducate the businesses on what a
good PMO is.
Because um, you know, althoughwe are seeing that the PMOs are
getting yes, partner with thebusiness, yes, they are sitting
in a strategy, they have astrategy seat, they have a
(01:03:30):
decision-making word, um, but itis going back to that trust that
they business trusted them andgave them the stage.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03:40):
Um, if you have the best PMO in the world, like
Amira and Fatima, and you don'tgive them a stage and you don't
um let them to um speak, nothingis gonna happen.
So it's a two-ways work that Ilike to invite some like a
businesses.
And then I started thathonestly, Fatima.
(01:04:02):
Like now I'm not talking to PMOcommunity anymore.
Because I know the PMO communityhas already a lot of resources
um to talk to, to learn from.
I'm talking to the peopleoutside of this bubble and
telling them, like, guys, theseare the things that can be
existed and can connect the dotstogether in your business.
(01:04:25):
So when we get to the point thatthe business, the business, and
then there's the stakeholders,the decision makers are talking
about it like that, then this isa success point, you know.
If we have that, like if we havea CEO and saying, like, I want
to see the PMO manager today tohelp me to answer this to the
board, that PML manager is agold.
(01:04:48):
Like 100%.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04:50):
That's um so such a good um target to aim for.
It's probably starting in someplaces, but more and more
recognition is needed, and Ithink you're right, there's an
abundance of things out therefor leaders to learn from and
those that are up and coming aswell to follow in the footsteps
of people like yourself becauseyou've done so much for the PMO
community.
(01:05:11):
You're prolific online, you'vedone amazing work with your um
retention of your clients,you've done great work
voluntarily, mind you, with alot of the work you do globally,
and um it's just uh such a goodrecognition of that by having
the trust of the the global teamand PMI to to put the the APAC
(01:05:31):
hub in your hands and it's in ait's in a good place.
So um can't wait to see and bepart of that and and evolve as
it comes in the coming years aswell.
SPEAKER_02 (01:05:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for yourwords.
SPEAKER_00 (01:05:44):
You're very welcome.
Now, um our closing tradition,you've probably already covered
it.
Our last question, is thereanything else you'd like to
share with our listeners, a callto action or a piece of advice,
or a question to ponder beforewe wrap up today?
SPEAKER_02 (01:05:58):
The only thing is at the end of the word, each single
of us is responsible to makethis word a better place to
live.
Um so no matter if you're a PMO,project manager, whoever, by the
contributing to make this placea better place.
Um just do your best to that'sit.
(01:06:19):
So I do my best to end my ownstrengths.
So yeah, let's put handstogether and make it work.
SPEAKER_00 (01:06:30):
Love it.
On that note, thank you.
Thanks so much.
My pleasure.
Thank you so much for listeningto this podcast.
Please share this with someoneor rate it if you enjoyed it.
Don't forget to follow us onsocial media and to stay up to
date with all things agileideas.
Go to our website, www.agilemanagementoffice.com.
(01:06:52):
I hope you've been able tolearn, feel, or be inspired
today.
Until next time, what's youragile idea?
You're listening to Agile Ideas Podcast, hosted by
Fatima Booty.
For anyone listening out therenot having a good day, please
know there is help out there.
Hi everyone and welcome back toanother episode of Agile Ideas.
I'm Fatima, CEO at AMO, MentalHealth Ambassador, and your
(00:21):
host.
Today's episode is well andtruly long overdue.
And the reason for this isbecause this lovely lady that
we're going to be speaking totoday is someone that has an
absolute heart of gold that I'vehad the pre privilege of knowing
for quite a while now, after sheand I met at an event in
Melbourne when she was down herefrom Sydney and just kicked it
(00:46):
off.
And ever since then, we've beencollaborating and connecting and
speaking, and it's been a realpleasure knowing her.
So please let me introduce youto Amira, Amir Mazahari.
Amira is a visionary leader inproject, program, and portfolio
management with 20 years ofinternational experience across
the Middle East and AsiaPacific.
(01:08):
As CEO of PMO Solutions andchair of the GPMF 2025, she's
known for driving strategictransformation through
human-centered tech-enabledsolutions.
She serves as the APAC hub leadand advisory board member at PMO
Global Alliance and isrecognized for bridging strategy
(01:29):
and execution, empowering PMO todeliver sustainable impact.
Her approach blends systemthinking, digital innovation,
and creative leadership to alignpurpose, people, and
performance.
It's going to be a funconversation.
So please join me in welcomingAmira to the show.
Amira, welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (01:48):
Thank you so much, Fatima, for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (01:51):
I was saying just before I was recording your bio
that we have been meaning to dothis for a very, very long time.
And uh it's finally here.
Too busy women not never findingthe time to meet and actually
talk in person.
So hopefully we get to do thismany more times as well.
SPEAKER_02 (02:09):
Yeah, that's uh that's always a pleasure to be
connected, to work with you andsharing the stage with you.
SPEAKER_00 (02:17):
And if you remember where we met, it was a few years
ago.
And I remember because I was ata conference in Melbourne, you
came down to be to uh to um havean exhibition at.
And I remember you just likesmiled at me and waved, and I we
didn't know each other, and Ijust thought, oh, this person's
so lovely.
And I was, you know, it was eversince then I think we've just
stayed connected.
(02:38):
It's it's great to you know besurrounded by other powerful
women that are you know makingwaves in this industry.
So let's get into it.
I want to start with yourbackground because you um
obviously are very deep in thisPMO project transformation
space, but that's not where youstarted.
Where did you start?
Tell us a little bit about yourbackground, your background.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
Um, Fatima, like I I don't know when I did I start
what.
But getting into theprofessional um journey, my
journey started when I was, Ithink I was 13 years old, 12, 13
years old.
So it was a time um that Istarted teaching what I was
(03:20):
learning.
So my whole my first journey, myfirst kind of like a working um
with outside a stakeholder, withexternal stakeholders and a real
customer was uh um on um and thetime I started to be a tweeter.
Um before that in I had in-houseand internal stakeholders, so I
(03:42):
had responsibility of managingum like a spring cleaning of the
house or having different peoplecoming in, coming out, or it was
a big event, I was kind of likea person who was um connecting
the dots together.
Um then by starting uh liketeaching and sharing the
(04:06):
knowledge, um that was mainlywith the purpose of um learning
and more learning of what Ilearned in the classroom.
Um so my my dad's analogy was ifyou want to learn, if you want
to pass the exam, so teach it.
Um and he was true becauseeveryone who um I was teaching
(04:29):
to had a lot to share and had uma different perspective of the
knowledge.
So that was a time that Ilearned um to listen to and I
learned to convert complexity tosimplicity.
Um then my entrepreneurialjourney um started from the time
(04:54):
that it was internet and I wasworking in a university and
nobody else had internet, eventhose, you know, the modem
dialing modem.
And um, you're not supposed,although you know my age, but
you're not supposed to count itnow.
Um so it started from the timethat I was downloading the model
for the flower bucket on thefloppy disk and walking around
(05:19):
to the flower shop and sellingthose uh floppy disks to them.
Uh so that was a time that I hadto market to be able to sell
something, um, and then alsoempowering those uh shops to um
just getting out of theircomfort zone and market what
(05:40):
they had to their customers thatis something new and some models
from the internet.
Um then I started my bachelordegree in um computer hardware
engineering.
Um along the way, I was alsoworking when while I was uh
studying.
Then I um got to the workforce,the former workforce very
(06:05):
quickly.
Um and that was after nine yearsworking so hard with uh
specifically in the oil andenergy industry.
Um, my journey from very purelyIT technical and a technology
side delved into the projectmanagement and I started my
journey with Primover Global,um, supporting all the
(06:27):
enterprise and mega projectsacross the Middle East region.
Um, and the time that I moved toAustralia, I was kind of like on
the other side of the fencedesigning and implementing
enterprise systems.
So I got my master's degree inIT with a focus on designing and
(06:47):
setting up enterprise businesssystems.
So when I'm talking aboutsystem, I'm not talking only
about a technology, I'm talkingabout the whole uh connecting
the dot and shaping up anorchestration.
And that was like, yeah, theseeding of the PMO space started
a long time ago from mainlyenabling and empowering and
(07:10):
leading people to get into thatdiscipline and organization.
Yeah, that was the startingpoint.
SPEAKER_00 (07:18):
It's um it's so interesting because when you
listen to that background,you're like, huh, it's it's so
um like so far now from whereyou started to what you're doing
now, and we'll get into that ina minute.
Um, but one of the things thatreally is a challenge for a lot
of people is when they go out ofan operational type of
(07:39):
environment.
Um, for those listening that arenot clear what I mean, like you
know, uh your um your IT role,HR, um, finance, etc.
So operational, business asusual, and then moving into
projects.
So how did you how did you uhinitially identify what projects
or project management was?
Did you fall into it?
(08:00):
Um, we were you seeking it out?
How did you actually make theconnection that that is
different to business as usual?
SPEAKER_02 (08:09):
So the thing is like um even in the IT, now I I know
I don't know about the otheroperational uh function in
depth, but I can say at thetime, uh specifically in IT, you
are you are also an enablerfunction.
So specifically for um thebusinesses which are um set
(08:31):
based on um enterprise projects,based on gigamega projects,
which are the like a bone and uhblood of the business.
Um IT is sitting as an as anenabler again.
Um one of the things that wenormally see, and it is very
common in IT Word as well, is adifferentiator between the IT
(08:55):
and the business.
But we can see when you are init, you can see that IT is part
of the business anyway.
It is part of the legs and handsof the business to make it uh
moving.
Um but on the other side, whenthey were talking about managing
their project and deliveringthat project, I'm not saying I
(09:16):
was the person who was hands-onto um managing those projects,
but I always were playing a roleof the enabler and a facilitator
of not either not only not onlytechnology level, but also
system level, but alsomethodology level.
And when I'm talking aboutmethodology is not about
(09:36):
initiating planning, design, andnot the project management
framework, I'm talking about away of working.
Um, so my main um like I startedfrom the big picture of the IT
and then architecture, theinfrastructure networking
architecture, mainly were on umCisco and Microsoft.
(09:59):
Um, one of the biggestachievements at the time that we
had was we connected 16 valves,um, oil valves across the whole
country to one singlecentralized location.
So our CEO was able to see umthe status of the valves on his
wall in his room.
(10:21):
Um, so for having such a thingat that time, like I'm talking
about how many years ago?
Like about 30 years ago, whichwas like the outlook was new.
Um, they were talking aboutfirewalls, like Yahoo Messenger
was around, so he had to blockYahoo Messenger in our network.
(10:44):
That was um that was that neededum a very good enabler uh
function to look at the businesselements and connect it
together.
My um takeaway of that is theoperational part of the business
is the enabler part of thebusiness, is the one that is
(11:07):
putting the bones um and thestructure and the foundation of
the business to move and be ableto look at those changes, look
at those uh projects um to beable to deliver that.
And if these two are notconnected and if this is a gap
between them, um that is that isnot the the the wheels are not
(11:32):
working together.
Um so my journey was exactly inthat middle.
So connecting the technologyside to the force that they were
so deep deep into projectmanagement, you know, in oil and
energy and engineering, projectmanagement is super technical.
(11:53):
Um, so I was not dive into thattechnicality, I was mainly
sitting um as a layer to enableum those technical knowledge to
support the success of theproject.
And when I'm talking about aproject, that was a like a huge
project.
It was actually the wholecompany was built around that
(12:15):
big, big mega project.
SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
And and that and that um nicely links into
transformation, exactly whichpeople throw around all the time
now, and there's different um, Iguess, different ways of
describing transformationdepending on the project, the
company, the maturity, whatyou've described there in that
sort of um industry aroundutilities and and energy or
(12:42):
mining and some of these reallycomplex uh transformation is
very different to what you wouldsee maybe in a small,
medium-sized business.
So um, when you think about thatcan conduit that you played
between, that that really stingsto how PMO at its heart comes
into it and really I can seewhere the skills transfer.
(13:03):
So, when did you first I guesslearn about what PMO was um and
really understood it?
And because that's somethingthat is you know not commonly
referred to.
So, where where in your journeydid you fall in love with PMO
and find out what it could dofor businesses?
SPEAKER_02 (13:21):
Um finding out the what the function of the PMO is,
right?
Yeah, and falling in love withit as you have.
Um I I I think normally, like,you know, when from the from the
very early age, I was always aperson who likes to um set the
(13:43):
scene, organize, make the thingshappen, moving it forward, um
getting the idea of where wewant to get to and make that
idea happen.
So always a person like liked toum do what I was saying.
Um and I was so like committedto my words.
(14:06):
Um when I came to Australia, umI was moved um uh from like uh
their region as a person who wasworking dedicated to Primavera.
Um so I moved to Australia andmy amazing loved um first
manager in Australia that I owehim a lot, and I would love
(14:27):
always to remember him as aperson that um the first person
in Australia who trusted me andgave me the stage to show my
strength.
And unfortunately, I lost him.
Uh, Wayne Wilson, uh, you youknow, I talk about him several
times.
Um, so he trusted me and he umput me forward um in the in the
(14:52):
Australian industry as aprimover consultant.
So our job was mainly to umembed into the Australian
business and then implement thatproject control system for them.
And then um after that I got umappointed to a project in latent
(15:13):
contractor, which was a CPP CPB,uh, and my second amazing
manager um as uh Robert Turner,uh, I was working with him, and
the function that we had, and myrole specifically was to take
care of the very like actuallywe had the largest um enterprise
(15:35):
of primavera in the wholeAustralia and New Zealand, uh,
and I was taking care of thatpart, and our whole group was
the one that we were enabling umother project controls and the
projects that was at the timewith latent contractor.
That was the time that I gotmore familiar with the concept
(15:57):
as a name of the PMI, um, but Iwas always arguing that hey, I
am not a business analystbecause I did um the
certification of PMI PBA.
I actually was one of the firstones that I got that
certification, um, which isgreat.
It is talking aboutfacilitation, it's talking about
(16:18):
finding the requirements, um,asking the right question, how
to connect people together, howto understand the different
people's needs, which was veryaligned with what I was learning
when I was teaching as well,because I'm also a certified
trainer in project management.
So we learn a lot ofpsychological um you know things
(16:42):
to understand how to communicateand how to convey the message.
Um, that was the time that I wasthinking, like, we are not a
business analyst, but we aresitting between the the wheels.
And then Robert was alwayssaying that you are the oil
between the wheels.
Um I said, like, what is thisfunction?
This function is not, we are notmanaging projects, we are not
(17:05):
controlling a project, we arenot IT, we are not B BA, so what
it is, and then that was thetime that I was looking at and
um got the concept of the PMO,which um, if you remember, um
the PMO journey started fromthat project management office
things, uh the admin of stuff.
(17:27):
So that was the time, and thenbecause of my role within latent
contractor, I really loved it.
Because like, you know, I Idon't know if I think but like
when you see that like peopleare coming to you and then they
follow the things, and you seethat orchestration and you see
(17:47):
that big picture that the thingsare working together, that's
very pleasing and very uhenjoyable.
Um and the backbone of all ofthese are the people.
Um, so kind of like, and thepeople are never getting boring,
right?
There it's always something newyou're learning um in connecting
(18:09):
the dots together.
So that's why um the thespecific tag name of my
expertise land on the PMI space,mainly.
SPEAKER_00 (18:20):
It's so um such a beautiful story.
Um, first of all, sorry aboutlosing Wayne, um, but it's so um
so great to see just how um umyou light up.
Um you're one of the mostpassionate people I know in the
project management office spacefor those that don't know what
PMI stands for.
Um, and you just light uptalking about it.
So it's amazing um to be to seethat.
(18:43):
Um I wanna I want to go back toyour first manager in Australia.
You said something reallyimportant.
You said the first person thattrusted you.
SPEAKER_02 (18:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
So there's people here today that are going to be
listening to this, thinkingabout maybe they're early in
their career or maybe they'retransitioning into a different
part of their career.
And perhaps one of the thingsthat they could benefit from is
how do you how did you buildthat trust with someone?
And and what would you recommendfor them if they want to become
(19:12):
that trusted, I guess, trustedpartner, and over time, like
you've become a trusted advisorto a lot of companies.
How do you build the trust um sothat people like Wayne um
trusted you to get the job done?
SPEAKER_02 (19:25):
Um, you know, trust is a relationship, it's a
two-way relationship, it's umlike a 50-50 relationship.
Um it is, and then I I actuallyreally like this subject.
Uh building the trust is one ofmy favorite subjects, um,
specifically in the leadership,because the trust is changing.
(19:50):
Like um that I was I saw acomic, and then the girl was
saying, like, um, give me showme your Instagram um chat, and
then she was showing, show meyour Facebook chat, and then she
was showing, show me youremails, she was showing, and
then all the text messages, andthen they asked me, like, show
me your chat GPT conversation,and then she ran out.
(20:13):
So you see that, like, we aregetting to the point that now we
are trusting an AI agent, um,and we are saying everything to
it.
Um, so if you're looking at thatum journey, we can see even the
trust is changing its shape,right?
And always make this examplelike like um 10 years ago, would
(20:37):
you um trust an estranged personfrom another country booking his
like or her house and goingthere and staying in that house
and paying that person?
So it is like look at that howhuman is um evolving as well.
Um but at the end of the day,when you are looking at that
(20:59):
trust is to be true um and to beto your word are the elements of
the trust.
So, first of all, say likesaying, presenting, modeling um
the thing that you trulybelieve, um, and repeating that.
(21:19):
Um it's all about creating thatmomentum and then showing that I
am this with all the goods andthe bads.
Sometimes I'm good, sometimesI'm not good.
I I I talk to you a lot aboutlike we talk and chat together.
So you see that, like the otherday the lady called me and said,
How are you?
(21:39):
and one of the customer serviceum for my car, and then she
said, How are you?
I said, I'm not good.
Like so it's it's just to betrue to the words.
Um, and at the end of the day,all of us are human.
I would love to use this stageand invite people um to reflect
(22:03):
on them on themselves that howmuch are you executing of your
words and your beliefs.
And on the other side, for thepeople who has this stage, who
has the power, who are sittingin a place that they are making
a decision, is uh truly openyour eyes into the people who
(22:25):
are coming to you with a trueheart and trust those ones that
they are saying, I do it foryou, I make this happen.
Because if you don't trust thosepeople, if you don't, if you
don't give them their stage, umthey don't will not have the
(22:45):
opportunity to shine.
And it was very interesting whenum I was talking to Rain and I
told him, like, I never forgetthat you trusted me on a day
that so many people, if thatresume that I brought by with
myself from Iran, if it was memyself now, I wouldn't recruit
that person, I wouldn't put thatperson in front of the customer.
(23:06):
So he trusted me, and that trustgave me power to stand up and do
my best, no matter what ishappening.
And he was always there, even ifI made a mistake.
So give that not only yourselfsaying, like, I don't know
everything, but whatever I know,I will do my best, and the
(23:27):
person who is making a decision,the other side of the equation,
let the people to make amistake, let them to um shine,
and that is gonna make you shineas well.
So that's a two-way things, um,which I don't know how we can
formulate it, but this is thisis only my thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (23:48):
It's it's a good point because um I don't think
there's uh necessarily a formulaor a model, because if you're
being true to yourself, thenreally it should shine through.
I I resonate a lot with how yourrelationship was with your
manager and and like you said,the the trust factor there,
because if I think back to anumber of instances in my
(24:08):
career, there are definitelymoments where I didn't think I
was equipped or well um suitedperfectly to a position or a
role, but because the the peoplethat I was dealing with maybe
saw passion, like I see yourpassion, or maybe they see what
you described around walking thewalk and talking the talk, they
(24:30):
then give you that opportunitybecause they believe that you're
gonna stick to your word.
So I definitely think thatsometimes it's not about your
years of experience, but it'show people see you and and
experience you and how you makethem feel.
SPEAKER_02 (24:44):
Yeah, exactly.
Like I I um uh ran um a surveyin LinkedIn, which was about I
was curious about to find outlike what makes the customer
retention high.
Um, I'm so proud and also humbleto say like in PML solution we
(25:04):
have over 95% customerretention.
And I was just like curious tosee like how people are seeing
it uh out there.
That is it because um theexperience that you're they are
receiving, or because of theservice they are receiving,
because of their relationship,but what is that?
And then it was very interestingthat the the majority was saying
(25:28):
because of the experience.
So at the end of the day, that'sthat experience that matters,
and then that is the main thingthat makes PMO successful as
well.
Um, to how you are defining whatexactly you're doing and what
pain you're fixing.
Um, so that's that's that mainlittle trick from um PMO Squad
(25:54):
um survey last year in 2024.
We can see that 64% of the PMOsare not able, like are actually
challenging demonstrating theirvalues, which is lying down in
that way of like creating thattrust, creating that momentum,
creating that experience withyour customers in the business.
(26:15):
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
It's so easy for people to throw the word value
around.
Value, value, value.
Oh yeah.
And you know, honestly,sometimes it's it's so much as
long as you provide value.
And it's like, what's value?
Value is a bottle.
It's just, it's just, it's veryeasy to just throw because it's
not measurable, right?
Like realistically, unlessyou've got metrics around it.
(26:37):
So maybe on that point, um, I'mkeen to get your thoughts on
maybe um if you were assessingwhether a PMO was doing a good
job, be it the person leadingandor the the outputs of the
function itself, what would bethe two or three things that you
would advise an executive?
Pay attention to these two orthree things, and that will help
you guide whether your PMO isdoing a good job.
SPEAKER_02 (27:01):
Um, you know, Fatima, have you like ever been
in a doctor and they're askingyou out of one to ten, how much
is painful?
And you're saying, oh, 10, I'mdying, right?
And then after they are doingsomething, um, you're saying,
okay, they are saying out of oneto ten because they want to
measure measure, like they wantto have some kind of like a
(27:25):
odometer on it to say, like,okay, how what is the pain?
And you're saying it is five.
So this is a 50% pain reduction.
Right?
This is the experience that youhad with that um treatment
journey.
So that is the value that thattreatment journey brought to
(27:46):
you.
And the thing is, like, if youare making it too complicated.
I I'm seeing hearing that, like,oh, the value is the profit that
we are making, the value isthat, the value is, but like,
yes, but is the challenge ofthat business is to make profit
or is to get into more customer,or to just stay where it is,
(28:10):
like just continue doing what itis.
So we need to create thatlanguage to say, like, okay, out
of one to ten, but beingconsistent in their our range of
measurement, being consistent ofhow we are talking to them and
how we are creating andestablishing that experience.
(28:32):
You know, so value is yeah,you're right.
Everybody's talking value, andthen you're asking them, okay,
what is value?
SPEAKER_00 (28:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (28:39):
They're like, hey, it's just just just ask what do
you want from me?
Why do you want me here?
What if I'm not here?
Remember, it's actually one ofthe conversations that we had
together, and I think it was along time ago, and you mentioned
that, and it's always in myhead, and I ask this question
(29:02):
actually, and I always um bringyour name in as well.
Um, just remove what you'redoing, just turn off the report
that you're putting on.
And if nobody is coming andasking you, get rid of it, where
is it?
It doesn't add any value, right?
Exactly, exactly.
This is the way um you aretalking about the value.
(29:26):
The value can be yourcommitment.
Um, so when you are talkingabout walk the talk, is your
commitment that you're puttingin actually your baseline?
And are you delivering based onthe baseline or a commitment
that you had?
So um that is the value, right?
(29:46):
This is a formula in earnedvalue in project.
Yeah.
You are looking at the baseline.
Yeah.
So as long as value is a bigthing and then like a buzz.
word and like like the strategyexecution we are here to make
you successful that that and butlike at the end of the day um
(30:09):
what we are doing really yeahand do you really want us so I
always ask this from mycustomers that do we're still
interested do you want us hereor not um are we really helping
you out of one to ten how muchwe are helping you and they're
saying like oh two bye so you'renot this this is yeah just I
(30:35):
think that's that's simple.
SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
You know it's interesting because you're right
I we do we do talk about the theconcept of you know turn small
things like I mean everyonetalks really big strategy and
huge KPIs and metrics and I knowwhen we were doing some work
together you your your team umand yourself created this really
good list of KPIs that PMOs canuse that that's all well and
good.
But sometimes I feel like it'sthe small thing.
(30:59):
So exactly what you described interms of the relationship asking
a simple question like a GP,like your doctor would ask one
of the other measures that I'veseen firsthand recently that I
think is really worth callingout is obviously in the PMO,
depending on what we're doing,particularly when we're we're
running you know large programsof work where we're supporting
(31:19):
delivery and we're trying tomake sure all these things are
happening sometimes we find, Ifind that we have to communicate
a lot of messages and you've gotto put meetings in place, you've
got to bring people together,you have to get awareness,
educate, etc, etc, etc.
And I don't know about you, butI find that the more complex the
program the more meetings thePMO has to set up and I find I
(31:42):
set up a lot.
I reckon a really good measurethat's so simple is how many
times in those meetings what'sthe turnout of people that turn
up to your meetings?
How many times can you simplifysomething so rather than making
people um making people getinformation in a way that suits
(32:03):
you as the person running it,provide opportunities for them
to come and be part of a whetherit's a knowledge share session
or something.
And I find the number of peoplethat return to things like that
is a really good metric becausepeople are joining PMO sessions
and PMO classes and training andall that's a really good sign
that you're doing a good job.
So that's one of the small onesthat I just feel like is really
(32:26):
relevant that I've seen recentlythat I think could maybe help
some people as well.
SPEAKER_02 (32:31):
Yeah and the other thing is um you know um yeah we
have like if you read KPI like apractice guide all the services
has KPI yes absolutely so that'sa norm.
Like you know as a standard termwhen you're looking at it you
want to wait you want to do theweight loss there are a specific
(32:51):
KPI that you can measure againstit.
But it is up to you which one iswhich one is related right so
the list is fantastic and it'sreally valuable to have a list
of those KPIs a list of like akind of um having a reference
(33:12):
but saying that the art of thePMO is to find out what is fit
for what yeah right and thenthat's the thing one of the very
like a very simple um kind oflike um um point or some some of
the things that you can see thatthis is they are moving.
(33:34):
I even found it simpler thaneven sitting in a meeting I
found it when your customersstarted saying repeating your
words and getting to thatlanguage and getting to that
discipline without themrecognizing that they are
(33:57):
following something yeah andthey think that they are doing
it by themselves that those arethe moments that I celebrate in
my heart.
Yes yes although I'm not sayinganything but I'm saying yes they
got it you know that's the pointI was like you know 100% yes I I
(34:18):
got to the point of like andthen I learned that a lot um um
it's not about knowing it'sabout doing and being so it is
very important that if I am aPMO I am a I am really a PMO in
(34:39):
life right as I'm saying like mymy little one my five years old
has a Kanban board um and sheplans her things like she's
doing what what she has done orum I always I was working in um
Sydney maintenance contractwhich is one of the main um
(35:02):
contracts in Sydney and in NSWfor doing the infrastructure and
the um intelligent transportsystems maintenance works which
is a very huge busy like highvolume portfolio and then I
always have my um diary in myhand and then I had a block of
(35:25):
the timing and then like thediscipline of putting the like
you know ticking off the habitsand they were making a joke of
me and said like two weeks laterWednesday what is your lunch and
I was telling them that like forexample I don't know my salmon
beef and then oh look look atthat you know it's it's all
(35:48):
about doing and being con thatconsistency that repeating that
when your customers arerepeating what you're saying are
are looking at the discipline asa way that is their habit this
is a time that you're successfulno matter what that's a value.
SPEAKER_00 (36:08):
Yeah a hundred percent it's so interesting you
say that because I I I justrecall like we talk a lot um at
AMO about like the AMO way andcapability in a box and blah
blah blah but um when we wouldwork with clients similar to you
we have you know our own modelsand methods and processes and
tools etc but we don't go inthere and say hey we're gonna
(36:28):
use the AMO way and we're gonnado this we're gonna because one
that's gonna overwhelm them.
It's not right fit, right time.
But we use it to run projectsand the programs and do the
governance and all that.
And then by the end of itthey're actually going oh um I
thought we were going to usethis or we use that and it's
like we have been the whole waythrough but you tailor what is
(36:50):
needed and I think PMOs reallystruggle that I see many of them
go from one organization, liftand shift what they did there
and bring it to another but theindustry might be different the
maturity might be different theexperience the language is
different the acronyms aredifferent and it's not the right
fit all the time.
(37:11):
It took me a long time to figurethat out it also took me a long
time to figure out that it's notabout me as the PMO leader.
It's about those that we supportbeing the stakeholders and the
delivery teams and theexecutives and things.
SPEAKER_02 (37:22):
So it's a really um it's a really timely reminder I
think the right fit um the righttime the right place not
assuming that it's a one sizefits all yeah this is another
another one the fit for purposeyou know a strategy execution
value delivery fit for purposebut if then you're getting into
the into the like a really DNAof these words implementing
(37:48):
these words is the art of thePMO so not everybody can be a
PMO then a hundred percent andnot everyone can be an
entrepreneur um they could trybut it doesn't suit some people
my husband would not be a goodentrepreneur and nor does he
have an interest in doing so umlikewise I think there's some
(38:09):
really talented projectmanagement professionals that
would be exceptionally good atdelivering projects and programs
but some of them have gone intoPMO and they've failed and
likewise there's some that arereally good in PMO but have not
come across the projects verywell because they're better at
the governance and the oversightand the reporting and the
(38:30):
control and the conjuit conduitbetween stakeholders so I think
there's a definitely a a blurredline there that um people
probably just need to be a bitmore aware of I I I on that
point wanted to ask if you thinkabout the mindset behind change
which um is necessary for a PMOleader what do you think one
mindset shift that they couldmake to make them have a bigger
(38:54):
more meaningful impact in theorganizations they're supporting
a lot my friend favorites um thething is like there is no right
and wrong um so I always saythat and I I truly believe on
(39:15):
that one although my umperfectionist Amira um comes up
my overthinking Amira comes upand say like no no no no this is
not right this is not good so umbut I started learning not
started kind of like um when Isaw the soxes which is the time
(39:37):
that my customers are thinkingum differently is the time that
I put that in my head that beingbiased um and instead of talking
about no you should not go thisway we should go that way I
started to talk about risk Istarted to talk about what are
the consequences and how we areseeing it.
(40:01):
And saying that Fatima is veryinteresting that I learned that
more from Jasmine my five yearsold in terms of logic and then
bringing that logic together andthen saying because of this fact
and because of this fact this isthe consequences so and then
(40:22):
when you're talking about factfact consequence then they
you're activating the thinkingcells instead of bringing the
gates up when you are talking inyour business.
(40:43):
I saw that this is happening andthat is getting as a cause of it
so this is gonna be theconsequence of it how much are
you ready for it um so and thenlike um that mentality of being
patient and um kind of like Idon't know being patient and
(41:08):
being careful about yourcustomers is very important.
It's uh like a function of PMOis a very very customer care
function.
It's not um it's not orderingit's not um managing it's
leading it's enabling which weare always making a mistake of
(41:31):
the role of the PMOs and that isthe thing um I had a I had a
video of the good bad ugly so insome of the cases we can see um
that hey guys it's okay it's nota rank or writing in PMO space
it's all about the logic thefact the consequences as well so
(41:55):
that's my takeaway everybody hasone.
You're very um you're very goodat blending creativity and
structure which you justdescribed very well um and you
just talked about risk and I'm Iknow there's probably people out
there that want to make surethey've got the structure and
maintain all of that and provideall of the sometimes rigidity
(42:17):
but sometimes adaptiveness buthow do you bring creativeness
into that process where a lot ofPMO is about governance how do
you bring creativity intogovernance yeah um I don't know
it's it's kind of like I I thinkthat's a natural uh thing coming
(42:39):
um but uh saying that I Istarted painting when I was nine
years old nine ten years old umand I was I was me and my
brother started um paintingtogether I was the one that um
(43:00):
painting whatever they were gavegiving me so if they gave me
this I was painting this but mybrother was the one that when
they gave this to him he waspainting whatever he thought
that this can be looked likeokay you know so he was adding
that imagination into it.
Yes um saying that that helpedme to say like it is okay if we
(43:27):
just come up with something thatis not within the frame.
And when I came to Australia andum beautiful vein put me in
front of people to teach themproject management my I always
say that my main goal was peoplesitting in my room are not
asking me a question.
(43:47):
So my target was zero questionbecause I I was a struggling of
like my my English wasn't thatgood.
So I started using that paintingand um kind of creativity
bringing the storytelling andthen painting for them on the
wall like the characters movingtogether and then telling the
(44:09):
story that they do not have anyquestion.
So kind of like limitation butalso um thinking that you are
okay if you do the thingsanother way around um are
getting together and then givebring that creativity in.
(44:31):
And then moving forward in PMRspace I can see that um we are
all about those presentationthose uh you know ugly charts
and things so my artistic eyenormally is a person who like
I'm I'm curious about like I I'mvery fussy about what coloring
(44:52):
I'm putting it what are thecolors how they are setting
together how it comes to theeyes is it Freddy or not?
And then I met Paul Telling fromVisual Storytellers.
So that we tied together handsand then we started bringing
that art and creativity into PMRspace.
(45:13):
So now specifically for thosecustomers that they have um a
lot of resistance of seeing thejourney or a lot of resistance
of seeing the plan we actuallyconvert the plan into posters to
the story.
Like in one of the um postersthat we created like part of the
(45:35):
roadmap are the people arearound the campfire and it was
very interesting that we gavethat poster to our customer as a
PMO roadmap and they didn'tremember what was that roadmap.
They remembered the poster likeoh that one that snail that is
moving slow is a reflection of aslow delivery and then getting
(45:58):
to around the campfire or it wasa character looking at um
outside to the uh to the cityshowing that the vision that
they can have and the visibilitythat they can have behind the
long trees um so they rememberedthose and we are as a human like
we we love that um look at theyour iPhone the time that um
(46:22):
Steve Jobs put the iPhonetogether was by by art it wasn't
technology right no so i've seenyour um I've seen some of your
work in the I've seen your youruh little comic that you created
I've seen some of the artisticand actually it was one of our
early conversations that you uminspired me to take a bit more
(46:43):
of a um proactive um uh lens andand make things a little bit
less boring for some customersbecause you're right governance
is can be quite boring sobringing some of that creativity
in art is actually really areally good idea and um I
definitely learned a lot moreabout that from you so keep up
the good work there it'sdefinitely um inspiring
(47:03):
customers and people like myselfso thank you the other thing I
can bring it in I'm I'm sure youand your customers your
listeners are gonna love but Ihad to um attend on a stand up
comedy course.
Oh okay to learn how to um takethe moment and then create some
(47:28):
fun out of it uh specifically inEnglish um so that was very
helpful I was the worst studentin the class but I learned a
lot.
SPEAKER_00 (47:37):
Well I didn't do comedy although I think that's a
real good idea.
I was listening to a podcastthis morning and um and the um
the the doc the doctorspecialist they had um heart
he's a heart doctor and a heartsurgeon and he was saying that
if you can um even pretend laughor get into laughing clubs where
(47:58):
they just laugh not becauseanything's really funny but it
stimulates the vagus nerve andthat I think can make a really
good um impact to your health aswell.
So that's really smart.
I think that's good.
I think I did a drama courseonce um to learn how to do
presentations better.
Not so long ago.
But yeah I think these thesesorts of things would be so
(48:18):
great um in these organizations.
I think it's a really good wayto bring fun and and I know that
when we when you know I'veworked in in different teams
it's really hard sometimes butthere is that resistance and
you've got to find differentthings.
There is some organisationswhere some of that artistic
(48:39):
stuff is just not going to gowell.
In some some mining teams forexample I've seen change
management um go very badlywhere they've attempted dinosaur
stickers for example and theydidn't go very well.
Where in other organizations itmakes a lot of sense.
So I think you've got to go backto what you said earlier around
the right thing for the righttime and the right people.
(49:01):
So I think that's um it's areally good um it's a really
good thing that you guys aredoing.
So well done on that.
SPEAKER_02 (49:06):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (49:08):
I just we're getting close to the end of our
conversation I did want tocircle um to a couple of things.
So there's been a lot of changesin the PMO community with the
work that you um and the teamare doing as part of the PMI PMO
GA Global hub and then the APAGhub that you've set up and then
you um being um part of the wellbeing the chair for the global
(49:29):
project management conferenceand so I wanted to kind of ask a
two part question.
So one of them is what are youseeing are the biggest trends
right now or coming up in PMOfrom all of that community that
you're part of and then I wantedto touch on um what's changed in
the PMO value ring and explain abit more about that for people
(49:49):
that don't know what it is.
SPEAKER_02 (49:51):
So maybe if you could answer those two maybe we
start with the GMF GPMF and thegeneral community what's the
vibe what's the trends thatyou're seeing and hearing you
see um Patima like um I I wastelling you like the about the
culture and about the people ummindset um like um I can see the
(50:16):
Global Project Management Forumwas an amazing opportunity.
I'm not saying that was easy jobit was a huge job out of my
little um comfort zone so Iactually um at the time that I
was doing it I was like what ifit goes bad?
Because it was huge.
(50:37):
I was dealing with 500 leadersum selecting them saying no to
someone and then bringing themalong and then also going with
very new way of setting up theconference was was challenging.
I was not alone I had acommittee team that they're um
(51:01):
supporting but the whole designof the program was um from our
side and um first of all huge Ican't say appreciation to bader
Borshead for his trust um andthe way he trusted me and then
led me gave me the stage to makea decision on on on the go um
(51:25):
and tweak and pivot at the timewas very amazing.
But what I also saw that is ummy friends in Australia it's not
a time to sit down and justwatching to see where the word
is going.
This train is moving you want itor you don't want it you need to
(51:50):
get into this train um PMO spaceis moving now PMO is not a
little child anymore it is nowgrowing up it is now stepping
into the place that is talkingabout its identity we are
looking at the case studies umfrom the PMO uh global awards
(52:14):
and I'm so um proud to say allof us in PMO so like like this
is the only homework that we allcommitted to do is to be the
judge in a PMO global award it'swe can see that the ethical and
the ones that are really reallytruly embed into their business
(52:37):
and they are part of thebusiness they are part of the
hands and the head and the eyesof the business are the
successful one.
But saying that the PMOs thatare truly the partner of the
business are the ones that areplaying the best role of the PMO
and they are actually acting ontheir own right position.
(52:58):
The winner of this year it wasvery interesting looking at them
from the different region and Ihave to work a lot put a lot of
effort to encourage Australiancompanies to throw their hat
into the ring and unfortunatelywe haven't like the the uh the
(53:21):
most successful one was thisyear that get into the semifinal
but we are not getting up itmeans it has a lot of saying
that we had a lot to do we had alot to understand and this is
not a message for only PMOpeople this is a message for the
business that understand thatnot everybody can be a PMO and a
(53:45):
good PMO is the one that is yourright hand to make a decision.
It's your right hand to reportto the board bring that
visibility of the risks and whatis happening in the business
what is going on not only on theproject to your board expect
(54:05):
these sort of things from yourPMO like what master schedule
and this kind of stuff they arerequired but this is not the
maximum potential of a good PMO.
So the trend is moving the PMOsare getting very much stronger
you can see with the strategicmovement of the PMI of buying
(54:28):
PMO global alliance and now wecan see such a person like
Americo Pinto now it is sittingand working in with PMI to
strengthen this profession is avery good opportunity to
recognize PMO as a specificprofession in project
management, which I'm so proudto say that the PMO CP um which
(54:52):
is not new right like welaunched PMO CP um in 2018 in
Tesla showroom in Australiaright that was the time that
America came to Australia.
So PMOCP is a greatcertification that is going to
give you the fundamentals andthe knowledge of what can PMO be
(55:14):
about um you ask a very goodquestion like in terms of the
PMOGA EPACHUB we are one of thehands of the PMOGA global that
which we are actually reportingto America and the global
leaders in the PMO space we areworking hands in hand with the
(55:36):
PMR chapters um we are umsetting up and delivering some
webinars and some uh studygroups and support as a
knowledge management as anexpert um to the project
management community the otherthing that we are we have in our
roadmap is uh we are bringingthe cases from the global um PMO
(56:00):
award and we will have asimulating the judging um
sessions for the people so thatyou can join uh there will be
discussion about that specificcase so you can learn from your
peers as well so the main visionof the PMO GA APAC hub is to
connect PMO community togetherand um empower PMO professionals
(56:21):
to learn from each other umwhich I know like the APAC hub
uh finalist uh the APAC finalistfor uh PMO Global award is
actually a very strong applicantum and they have done an amazing
job um moving forward um andlike maturing their PMO in their
(56:43):
business um in terms of the PMOvalue ring you know the I go
back to the main concept and thecore of the value ring which is
customer so there are a lot ofapproaches in terms of setting
up a PMO I have uh like in oneof the uh discussion panel that
(57:05):
I was there the question waswhat is the best um and the must
service that the PMO should haveand I said like I don't know it
really depends on the customerof that PMO and the the
facilitator was kind of like doyou really know PMO and uh like
(57:26):
then they were talking about noschedule management training is
the must methodology frameworkand I was like no guys it is it
really depends on and then yesyou know when we are talking
about the value is really whatis matter to that business and
what is matter to that customer.
Yes um so the first version ofthe PMR value ring was mainly
(57:48):
focusing on um the customerasking the expectations and then
translating those expectationsinto the services and then
talking about the when theseservices you can expect to see
the values and then how you canum in terms of the scenarios
that you have in your businesshow these services can address
(58:11):
those services.
There were some indicators inthat PMO value version one which
were like a capability indicatoradherence indicator expectation
indicator adherence indicatorwhich were mainly saying what my
customer wants what how much Ican make them happy so what is
(58:33):
the reality and how much I amable to make them happy and
specifically you cannot makeeverybody keep everybody happy
right and how much I am capableof delivering these services and
what is the maturity of theseservices currently in the
business and I want to get to umthe PMO value ring version two
(58:56):
which is now in a PMO practiceguide in a simple word is
looking at um breaking downthose um eight steps from the
version one to 10 steps aroundthe customer but is also looking
at another three layers outsideof the customer connection like
(59:16):
the the core of the customer andthose 10 steps is actually
looking at it's itself as a PMOas an entity looking at what are
the PMOs strategy what is thePMO design and what is the PMO
governance and then also in thenext layer which is the broader
layer is looking at the the uhfour aspects of the organization
(59:38):
of the maturity of theorganization culture of the
organization structure of theorganization so it is trying to
embed um all the elements thatare um defining that function so
I'm going back to your first umuh discussion that you have
about the operational rolemoving from operational Role to
(01:00:00):
the business role is actuallylooking at to glue all those
elements together and thensaying, okay, um if in the in
the previous version was whereabout the PMO to identify the
reality, is now there aredifferent domains that you can
put the reality and then havinga factful um kind of like a
(01:00:26):
reliable conversation with yourstakeholder.
So the new PMO CP is mainlylooking at this new wheel, which
is still customer is in themiddle.
Um there are different phasesthat your customer is going,
different steps you're takingthrough, um, and also what is
the structure of the PMO and howthis PMO is fitted into that
(01:00:48):
business body.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:50):
So it's interesting because um the way you just
described that goes back to yourfirst point, which is the PMO is
growing up.
It is maybe anymore.
I'm seeing my talk growing up,and I'm like, wow, since you'll
be in primary school and highschool and all those sorts of
things.
So I agree with you completelyon that point.
Um, I probably a little bit lessthan you, but about 20 years now
(01:01:13):
since I first got into theconcept of this project space
and PMO space, and I've never inmy um 20 years seen it as
prominent and as important andas purposeful as it is these
days.
And I think we have to give someum definitely give some credit
to um many people, um, Americo,um Joe in the US, um Laura,
(01:01:37):
Laura, the UK team.
Um there's so many reallyexactly so many really strong
PMO thought leaders that are notcalled thought leaders because
they've decided to callthemselves that, but people like
us will reflect um our views andcall them that.
And they like like ourselves andand many others have done so
(01:02:00):
much tireless work to bring PMOto the to the strategic um
table.
And so I'm really excited to seewhat comes of this, um, to see
more.
I'll share notes about the PMOCP, the certified practitioner
um uh certification.
Uh we'll share more about um GEPMF as well.
(01:02:22):
And um, I think that people willget a lot of value from looking
into those things, particularlyas a really good, I guess,
benchmark, particularly becauseof how many people have been
involved in the originalcreation and then obviously the
updated version.
So thank you for sharing.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02:36):
Yeah, you know, Fatima, that's uh my pleasure.
But like um the thing is,Fatima, at the moment, among
PMO, specifically PMOpractitioners, I'm not talking
about whoever is a PMO, right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:02:47):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02:47):
I have a lot of conversation with so many
people.
Okay, what do you do?
I am project manager, I'mprogram manager, I'm a PMO, I do
business analysis, I do this.
I'm talking about those onesthat are like live and breathe
like yourself in PMO space.
I like you know, I always saythat to people like, hey, I
(01:03:08):
don't know anything else, but Iknow PMO very well.
Um we are all responsible toeducate the businesses on what a
good PMO is.
Because um, you know, althoughwe are seeing that the PMOs are
getting yes, partner with thebusiness, yes, they are sitting
in a strategy, they have astrategy seat, they have a
(01:03:30):
decision-making word, um, but itis going back to that trust that
they business trusted them andgave them the stage.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03:40):
Um, if you have the best PMO in the world, like
Amira and Fatima, and you don'tgive them a stage and you don't
um let them to um speak, nothingis gonna happen.
So it's a two-ways work that Ilike to invite some like a
businesses.
And then I started thathonestly, Fatima.
(01:04:02):
Like now I'm not talking to PMOcommunity anymore.
Because I know the PMO communityhas already a lot of resources
um to talk to, to learn from.
I'm talking to the peopleoutside of this bubble and
telling them, like, guys, theseare the things that can be
existed and can connect the dotstogether in your business.
(01:04:25):
So when we get to the point thatthe business, the business, and
then there's the stakeholders,the decision makers are talking
about it like that, then this isa success point, you know.
If we have that, like if we havea CEO and saying, like, I want
to see the PMO manager today tohelp me to answer this to the
board, that PML manager is agold.
(01:04:48):
Like 100%.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04:50):
That's um so such a good um target to aim for.
It's probably starting in someplaces, but more and more
recognition is needed, and Ithink you're right, there's an
abundance of things out therefor leaders to learn from and
those that are up and coming aswell to follow in the footsteps
of people like yourself becauseyou've done so much for the PMO
community.
(01:05:11):
You're prolific online, you'vedone amazing work with your um
retention of your clients,you've done great work
voluntarily, mind you, with alot of the work you do globally,
and um it's just uh such a goodrecognition of that by having
the trust of the the global teamand PMI to to put the the APAC
(01:05:31):
hub in your hands and it's in ait's in a good place.
So um can't wait to see and bepart of that and and evolve as
it comes in the coming years aswell.
SPEAKER_02 (01:05:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for yourwords.
SPEAKER_00 (01:05:44):
You're very welcome.
Now, um our closing tradition,you've probably already covered
it.
Our last question, is thereanything else you'd like to
share with our listeners, a callto action or a piece of advice,
or a question to ponder beforewe wrap up today?
SPEAKER_02 (01:05:58):
The only thing is at the end of the word, each single
of us is responsible to makethis word a better place to
live.
Um so no matter if you're a PMO,project manager, whoever, by the
contributing to make this placea better place.
Um just do your best to that'sit.
(01:06:19):
So I do my best to end my ownstrengths.
So yeah, let's put handstogether and make it work.
SPEAKER_00 (01:06:30):
Love it.
On that note, thank you.
Thanks so much.
My pleasure.
Thank you so much for listeningto this podcast.
Please share this with someoneor rate it if you enjoyed it.
Don't forget to follow us onsocial media and to stay up to
date with all things agileideas.
Go to our website, www.agilemanagementoffice.com.
(01:06:52):
I hope you've been able tolearn, feel, or be inspired
today.
Until next time, what's youragile idea?
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.